VeriChip Implants 222 People With RFID

cnet-declan writes "Anyone remember VeriChip, a company that came up with the idea of implanting chips in humans for tracking them? They've been behind ideas like RFID tagging immigrant and guest workers at the border, and they've persuaded a former Bush Health Secretary to get himself chipped. In this CNET News.com article, we offer an update on how successful the idea has been. It turns out that, according to IPO documents, 222 people have been implanted, with sales revenue of $100,000."

Comments

I'd do it

[2.7182]

but I'd hate to have to eventually pull that glowing red ball through my nose just to get to Mars.

Re:I'd do it

[Silentknyght]

Every time I watch that movie, I think about how painful that would have been. On a slightly related health topic... I'd be curious to know the lifetime of said electronics within the human body, its potential for signal degradation over time, and the percent of subjects whose bodies react adversely to the foreign material.

Re:I'd do it

[Misch]

IEEE recently published a series of papers on this subject:

IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON DEVICE AND MATERIALS RELIABILITY, VOL. 5, NO. 3, SEPTEMBER 2005

Paper overview (PDF)

Re:I'd do it

[solitas]

That was one of the [more] stupid parts of the movie. Be observant: the extraction tool was the size of a golf ball but the part ultimately removed was a lot smaller.

Re:I'd do it

[Ucklak]

Like triple breasted women, a baby that is conjoined with an adult that has wisdom of the ages, an elaborate fat suit with an exploding head, a martian atmosphere that somehow brings sustainable air pressure to a planet within seconds from a frozen water source?

Doesn't really matter, that movie kicked some major ass.
Double crosses, cat fights, a female midget with a machine gun, severed limbs, and using a body as a shield - just brilliant.

Re:I'd do it

[Mizled]

but I'd hate to have to eventually pull that glowing red ball through my nose just to get to Mars.

No need you can just put a wet towel over your head for now... >.>

Re:I'd do it

[jzuska]

Chick with 3 titties...

that is all

Re:I'd do it

[mibus]

IEEE recently published a series of papers on this subject:

IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON DEVICE AND MATERIALS RELIABILITY, VOL. 5, NO. 3, SEPTEMBER 2005

You and I have must disagree on what "recent" means :)

Re:I'd do it

[Anonymous Coward]

What would happen if one of them got zapped by a microwave, thus frying and/or bursting the chip? Last time I checked, toxic materials don't work too well in the human body.

Fancy that

[Vengeance]

People aren't lining up around the block to have uniquely identifiable bits of technology inserted into 'em? How come?

Re:Fancy that

[sokoban]

I don't know. They've sold 222 so far for about $100,000. That's nearly $500 per person. I guess people who are getting this done are willing to pay out the nose for it.

Re:Fancy that

[Vengeance]

Nah, that money mostly went towards the implantation devices.

Re:Fancy that

[Anonymous Coward]

They already carry cellphones, so they neededn't do that.

Re:Fancy that

[kabocox]

People aren't lining up around the block to have uniquely identifiable bits of technology inserted into 'em? How come?

Cause God beat the government to it. ;) We don't need another unique identifier. We have DNA, fingerprintes, footprints, retina scans, facial thermal imaging scans, picture photos, and voice scans. We've used race, sex, hair color, eye color, height, and wieght when searching for criminals or posting limited ID traits on DLs. Do we really need more? I could see family, friends, schools, religions, employeers, and community clubs (Greenpeace or NRA) wanting to track "their" members, employees, family, or those involved with that religion. I think it's funny. We don't know if God exists so we are going to build a system that can tell where everyone is at any given time because that's one of the things only God was suppposed to be able to do and then worship it. I have no religious reason to object to anyone trying to track or control others that's the fundamental thing that God, governments, and humans generally try to do (control those that don't have the power to stop them.) I'm fairly certain that privacy will become a myth within my lifetime and most people won't even notice its gone.

Re:Fancy that

[SevenHands]

Kind of off topic, or maybe not. I couldn't help notice that a tracking feature is contained within the last two cell phones I've uesd. A feature called "assisted GPS" seems to mysteriously and unobtrusively be enabled by default from the factory. From what I understand, this location tracking feature is in addition to tracking one's location via cell tower triangulation.

Scary thing about this is that the vast majority of the people I talk to do not even know this feature is available, less enabled by default.

Re:Fancy that

[EdwinBoyd]

Scarier food for thought is wondering if turning off the "feature" actually makes any difference.

Re:Fancy that

[mikael]

Because here in the UK at least, people are busy voting against having uniquely identifiable bits of technology inserted in their cars. At the time of this article submission, 1,422,143 signatures have been signed opposing the proposed tracking and taxing of car journeys.

Re:Fancy that

[FerretFrottage]

Can't you just defeat these implants like you can the RFID chips in the US passports...with a hammer? Heck, if they implant them in the thumb, most "weekend carpenters" will disable them without even knowing.

Re:Fancy that

[badfish99]

Those people should have gone to the vets. We got our cat microchipped for less that one tenth of that price.

Re:Fancy that

[Anonymous Coward]

Felons, rapists and child molesters here we come! Prep your witch detectors!

Re:Fancy that

[Jon Kay]

I'm fairly certain that privacy will become a myth within my lifetime and most people won't even notice its gone.

I'm missing it. By the way, if any political staff are paying any attention (yeah, I know, it's SLASHDOT), know that I DO, in fact, vote on this issue.

Re:Fancy that

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm. These idiots paid $500 to get a one way ticket to Hell? Wow, you really can sell anything to anyone if you market it right.

Really, if that's what you want there are cheaper and easier ways to go about it, and can be much more fun.

Re:Fancy that

[jez9999]

We have DNA, fingerprintes, footprints, retina scans, facial thermal imaging scans, picture photos, and voice scans. We've used race, sex, hair color, eye color, height, and wieght when searching for criminals or posting limited ID traits on DLs.

Well, that's one hella unwieldy composite primary key, and still not guaranteed to be 100% unique! Actually, that would apply were it not for DNA, which I think probably is primary key-like in humans.

Re:Fancy that

[Anonymous Coward]

DNA, which I think probably is primary key-like in humans.

All of the twins, triplets, etc. are currently thanking you for not working on designing a primary key for humans.

Re:Fancy that

[fourchannel]

I'm fairly certain that you have no idea as to the real nature of this tracking system. You speak as if it's somehow ok for others to trample the rights of the populace. I encourage you to read this book. http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/1/

Re:Fancy that

[kabocox]

We have DNA, fingerprintes, footprints, retina scans, facial thermal imaging scans, picture photos, and voice scans.

Well, that's one hella unwieldy composite primary key, and still not guaranteed to be 100% unique! Actually, that would apply were it not for DNA, which I think probably is primary key-like in humans.

I thought I was fairly complete with what I could think of off the top of my head of what were fairly good ID methods. I'd say voice scans and pictures wouldn't be that good, but all the others are supposed to be very, very good. The thing is 5 sec. after an RFID system becomses used it'll become hacked. It'd be trival to copy someone else's id number. Screw twins or triplets, think of thousands walking around with the same ID code. It starts becoming useless than doesn't it? I could see "famous" people's RFID tag being copied and millions of their fans using their ID code. It'd be like masked famous person committing random crime. At any given moment, it would be hard for the government to narrow which of those RFID tags were good and which were copies. There would be no way of protecting yourself from having your ID tag copied since readers would be every where. I think that I like using DNA or body parts to tag people because atleast than you only have to worry about a handful of copies at the most rather than a large number of copies. That assumes we don't figure cloning out and go into it in a big way. DNA would be a useless ID method if everyone had the same DNA.

Re:Fancy that

[m0rph3us0]

Like a VIN number?
C
What is the point of complaining about that once you've blanketed the country in CCCP... er.. CCTV?

Re:Fancy that

[trabisnikof]

According to wiki, that's a feature to remotely process your GPS location, at a more powerful assistance server, than to do it locally at your not so powerful cell phone. That way, your phone can supply it's location to E911 systems faster. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS) No doubt there are mechanisms to remotely enable GPS tracking, but I doubt that there is anything an end user can do to disable it.

Re:Fancy that

[djdavetrouble]

No doubt there are mechanisms to remotely enable GPS tracking, but I doubt that there is anything an end user can do to disable it.

May I smarmily suggest a Sledgehammer ?

Re:Fancy that

[Greyfox]

Except in Kentucky where, as Carlos Mencia points out, they all have the same DNA.

Re:Fancy that

[mrbluze]

Probably because those wimpy volunteers demanded an anaesthetic from a trained specialist.. the nerve! (so to speak)

Re:Fancy that

[mikael]

No, a GPS satellite receiver/logger. The government wants a new way of taxing road users. Officially, the goal is to price motorists off the road and onto public transport. Raising petrol tax isn't too practical now, as the farmers and road haulage companies will go ballistic and blockade the refineries. At the same time it isn't practical to widen the motorways. So the government really needs a way of taxing wealthy commuters that live in the x-burbs and drive into the cities.

Re:Fancy that

[Swave An deBwoner]

Kind of off topic, or maybe not. I couldn't help notice that a tracking feature is contained within the last two cell phones I've uesd. A feature called "assisted GPS" seems to mysteriously and unobtrusively be enabled by default from the factory. From what I understand, this location tracking feature is in addition to tracking one's location via cell tower triangulation. Scary thing about this is that the vast majority of the people I talk to do not even know this feature is available, less enabled by default.

Interesting, though, how it was not so scary back in the Middle Ages (oh, say, 1950s to late 1990s) that anyone making a call from a telephone was effectively transmitting their exact physical location much more precisely than GPS + triangulation ever could. And imagine: law enforcement actually made use of that feature. Aaaaaaagghhhh! I'm going to have a nightmare tonight for sure.

Re:Fancy that

[zippthorne]

I rather like the idea that if I use my cell phone to call 911, the police, ambulance, fire trucks, whatever will come to where I am when I make the call rather than just busting down the door to my house and billing me for the privilege.

Could they have implemented this without using GPS? Well, certainly, using cell-tower data. But it would be a lot less accurate, and not necessarily even any easier to do, and there's already a GPS receiver in there for timing purposes, so why not use it for location too?

I would leave FAST

[VEGETA_GT]

if they tried to put one of those in me. I am a Canadian, and am working under contract in the US. but lets say they make it so all workers like me in a few years are required to have these flags, I can tell you now I would be going back to Canada fast. to me its a complete violation of my rights, and I well not stand for it and no one else should. Where I am is my business, and no one else's.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Chicken04GTO]

"Where I am is my business, and no one else's." Not if you are a guest in a foreign country.

Re:I would leave FAST

[AMindLost]

Even if you've been invited into that country and you're going about your peaceful business and breaking no laws in the process?

Re:I would leave FAST

[SocratesJedi]

Where I am is my business, and no one else's. Not if you are a guest in a foreign country. The interest a government has in preventing an attack does not imply that it would be right for that government to track all foreign nationals within its borders. At least, I would not support government policy that wanted this level of surveillance on foreigners. Even if you've bought into this nationalist mentality that foreigners are inherently more dangerous than domestic citizens consider: Once that infrastructure to track large numbers of foreigners is in place it would not be difficult to expand it to include tracking of citizens. I'm not willing to support any policy that will bring the government under which I live any closer to that type of police state. Are you?

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

Virtually all the company's revenues come from two Canadian companies it acquired in 2005. These companies, EXI Wireless and Instantel, specialize in infant tracking and "wander" detection systems in rest homes...

  Irony?

Re:I would leave FAST

[Rob the Bold]

"Where I am is my business, and no one else's." Not if you are a guest in a foreign country.

Why is that? Do you consider all foreigners a threat? Do you have a good reason to track all movements of citizens of friendly neighbors visiting this country? If you don't trust foreigners, why even let them visit or work here? Do you have a reason for your statement, or is it just 'cause you say so?

Re:I would leave FAST

[MillionthMonkey]

I can tell you now I would be going back to Canada fast

And doing what? Sitting around wishing you had a job at American pay rates?

Getting health care and affordable prescriptions while you sit around with a chip in your head made by the guy who has your job in China.

Re:I would leave FAST

[elmaxxgt]

A guest? that's not the way to greet guests... arent "guests" supposed to feel welcome? oh wait, since they aren't citizens, they have no rights... correct? May the next immigration officer that "greets" you on your next travel isn't one that holds something against americans. I've heard some very funny stories.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Wateshay]

There certainly are countries where foreigners don't have rights, but in the U.S. legal foreign immigrants have long been held to enjoy the same constitutional rights as everyone else (except where those rights are specifically limited to citizens, such as running for elected office). Heck, even Dubya hasn't pushed the idea of foreigners arrested within the borders of the U.S. being shipped off to Cuba or denied trial.

You may not feel that foreigners should be granted the same rights, but legally they are, and I think any politician is going to have a very hard time justifying (and getting passed) the forced implantation of a tracking device in legal immigrants or guest workers. And if he did, I just don't think the courts would uphold it, any more than they would uphold the bugging of all immigrant phones without reasonable cause or random searches of immigrant homes.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

If we knew it'd be that easy to get Canadians out of the Country we would've done this a long time ago.... You're taking all our good Acting, Singing and Comedian jobs!!! LOL

Re:I would leave FAST

[VEGETA_GT]

Ok I never even looked for a job State side, a US company contacted me and offered. I was invited to come here, why would I want to come to a country tho that wishes to track what I do in my private life. Maybe when you go to Canada you should be branded with the date of eatery and such, the US government would have a complete FIT with with Canada. Telling us its not fair, well same goes the other way, shy should we be taged going into your country. Neadless to say its against anyones right even if you are not form that country. and when all outsiders are basically branded, then whats to stop all Us citizens to get the chip, as again security reasons. Remember some attacks on US soil where by US citizens.

So I state this again, this EVER gts implemented I would be leaving the US FAST, I could not care about the contracts I am under, or whatever, I am out of here.

Re:I would leave FAST

[tomstdenis]

See what I hate is that's not actually true. As a visitor to the USA I have the same rights as any citizen, more specifically, I am entitled to the protection of the constitution of america and it's amendments.

Note that voting [and some similar stuff] is a right only of citizens (as prescribed by law). So the law still applies to me, and bars me from voting because I'm not a citizen [etc].

So if I entered the USA and then they decided to chip me they would be violating my constitutional rights to, among other things, the 4th amendment.

The minute they toy with their own rules against foreigners they can expect retaliations around the world. Which is why, aside from the ban on habeas corpus, they don't really infringe the rights of legitimate visitors.

That being said, I've never been questioned by the police in the USA. The only time I've had to talk to any law related folk outside of the border was a border patrol in upper state new york (re: budget exercise).

Tom

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather be unemployed and living in a box, then to put up with that bullshit

Re:I would leave FAST

[tomstdenis]

Follow up for the curious, See equal protection under the law which specifically grants the rights of the constituion to any person within the jurisdiction of the states.

So, no, the USA governement does not have the right to violate the rights of tourists.

Tom

Re:I would leave FAST

[Lord Ender]

Can someone please explain to me how this is a violation of privacy? I'm seriously curious.

The medical benefits of EMTs being able to instantly know a person's blood type, allergies, and medical history are obvious.

What isn't obvious is why people think short-range RFID is the same as battery-powered wild animal tracking collars. Are they just stupid? Look at the way RFID works. A person CAN NOT use it to track someone as they walk around a city. A device capable of generating the power to operate these over more than a very short distance would be very obvious to spot and would probably break every PDA and wrist-watch in the area. Also, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to survey a large number of RFID devices at the same time because of the way collisions are handled.

If you are afraid of this yet you carry a cellphone, you are a hypocrite. For practical purposes, small* RFID tags are a slightly-longer-range barcode.

*I realize that large tags can be read from greater distances. But that's not what we are talking about here.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

See what I hate is that's not actually true. As a visitor to the USA I have the same rights as any citizen, more specifically, I am entitled to the protection of the constitution of america and it's amendments.

You have the rights that the currently elected officials decide you have according to their interpretation of the constitution, dipshit. Don't think that holds? Check out what the current administration is doing.

The minute they toy with their own rules against foreigners they can expect retaliations around the world. Which is why, aside from the ban on habeas corpus, they don't really infringe the rights of legitimate visitors.

Yes, because we all know the huge number of US citizens that bother to ever travel outside the country.

Just another pansy-assed whining Canadian. Stay home. Seriously.

Re:I would leave FAST

[tomstdenis]

I don't get your AC trolling. I was actually complimenting the states and informing the OP that visitors DO have rights and that in my experience they're not being violated.

You may have a grudge against the USA [or just a plain coward troll] but in my experience, americans behave just fine towards Canadians within their states.

Stop posting as AC you "Internet Tough Guy" (tm), it must reinforces your complete lack of character. Grow up.

Re:I would leave FAST

[geekoid]

When you consider the the rights gaurenteed through the constitution applies to all people, not just citizens. On might say they are inaliable to all men.

Re:I would leave FAST

[fishbowl]

>The medical benefits of EMTs being able to instantly know a person's blood type, allergies, and medical history are obvious.

Can a person with an RFID implant get an MRI?

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

The analogy you've requested is...

What's the privacy violation of having your medical history, in rather small print, on the outside of your clothing, visible to everyone you walk near?

Re:I would leave FAST

[damienl451]

Don't worry. All we have to day is way a couple more years for the Constitution to "evolve" (it's a living organism, remember), and it will be recognized that "people" really means "citizens".

Re:I would leave FAST

[Lord Ender]

Most RFID systems I've seen transmit only a serial number. Such number could then be used to look up medical info in a central database (authenticated with already-established methods).

Re:I would leave FAST

[ganjadude]

so if I invited you into my house, I could ask you to wear a rfid bracelet, so ya know when you say your going to the bathroom I can be sure you actually are? remember...you got nothing to hide...

Re:I would leave FAST

[deKernel]

First off, I don't like the idea of tracking people. It is wrong, period, on any level.

With that being said, the purpose of the RFID tags is not to track the individual, but to have the ability to find that individual if needed. Theoretically it is meant to be reactionary system and not a proactive type system.

Is there room for abuse? You better believe it. Should it be used on all visitors to the US? No. Should all young to middle age men from the Middle East be tracked? Theoretically no but one could argue that all young to middle men are not terrorists but an extremely high number of terrorists do fit that profile. I am not condoning the view but just making a point. Please do not drag this comment into all Americans hate young to middle age Middle Eastern men because that is not the intent. I just used the above to show in intent of the system and how easily gray area some into play

Would I visit a country that wants to insert a chip into me on entry? Heck no. Would I blame people for not coming to the US if we put this type of system in-place? Heck no.

Again, I am not for the system because it is far to open to abuses but please judge the system as it was intended to be used: as a locater and not a tracker. Subtle differences, yes, but differences non the less.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never had to wade through the quagmire that is socialized medicine. Where emergency rooms visits can take 7 hours of waiting before a doctor sees you. I thought it was an emergency and therefore urgent, apparently the canadian government doesn't think it's urgent enough to hire more doctors. (Personal experience at a hospital close to the 401 in Toronto.) Keep enjoying that health care...

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

At least in Canada you only have to wait instead of having to sell your kidneys to afford dialysis.

Re:I would leave FAST

[c6gunner]

Except for the tiny little fact that the constitution doesn't actually include those words. It's rather sad that a CANADIAN has to point this out to a US citizen, but the idea that those rights are "inaliable to all men" comes from the Declaration of Independence, and NOT the constitution. In fact, the US constitution specifically states that:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Nowhere in there does it say anything about the constitution being intended to secure the rights of foreigners.

It's ok though, you can rest secure in the fact that the vast majority of Americans don't actually know what the constitution says. If you keep making shit up, most people will believe you.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not dead, so apparently it wasn't that urgent of an "emergency". Just because you show up at the ER doesn't meen that you need to see a doctor right away. Back in the '80s, I once waited at home overnight with an arm broken in three places so that I could see the doctor in the morning. That was before the day when people decided that a bad cold was an "emergency".

Re:I would leave FAST

[evilviper]

The medical benefits of EMTs being able to instantly know a person's blood type, allergies, and medical history are obvious.

Then get a medical bracelet with a barcode. They can read it just as easily, but you'd KNOW if someone was reading it. RFID circumvents physical security constraints.

A person CAN NOT use it to track someone as they walk around a city.

A person can't. A large company or government could. Quite easily, in fact.

A device capable of generating the power to operate these over more than a very short distance would be very obvious to spot

You can "spot" anything. That doesn't mean you have any way of knowing that street light you're walking by actually has a built-in RFID reader.

If you are afraid of this yet you carry a cellphone, you are a hypocrite.

I could almost agree with that (I don't have a cell phone), except for the fact that cell phones can be disabled at will, left at home, given to someone else, etc. Cell phones are a big privacy issue, but implanted RFID takes it to a whole new level.

Re:I would leave FAST

[barik]

I'd to love to use this if I were a human resources or hiring manager. Hey, we can't ask directly whether or not the potential candidate has a medical condition, but thanks to this chip, we can silenty dismiss these canditates cheaply and effectively without any legal ramifications. Just stick the RFID scanning device under the table during the interview and you're good to go! Thank you government!

Re:I would leave FAST

[Ozwald]

Ditto on all counts.

What's funny is that in the end this is all about feeding the American fear with easy short term patches. Soon only the immigrants who mean no harm will accept it while the red necks and terrorist continue to blow shit up. At least according to the article it's acquired Canadian companies supplying the hardware so we should feel a little better.

Ps... as a Canadian, you probably have in your memory the process of getting your passport and remember how difficult it was. Just for shits and giggles, look around in your neighborhood (through walking, not Google) for businesses that do passport photos and get one done. From the same people that want implanted RFID, this is as logical as the Chubacka defense.

Oz

Re:I would leave FAST

[@madeus]

You've obviously never had to wade through the quagmire that is socialized medicine. Where emergency rooms visits can take 7 hours of waiting before a doctor sees you.

For sure, most socialised healthcare systems have long waiting lists (unless say, you've just lost a body part) and are not the most efficient systems. This is true even for many serious or life-quality effecting conditions. You can still go private though, if you want better treatment for less-than-life-threating problems.

I went in with a bad back (non emergency, but really fucked it up badly the previous weekend to the extent I physically couldn't walk for 24 hours) to a central London hospital not long ago, waited 10 min and was seen by a Doctor, who did an exam, gave me some advice and I was on my way. No worry about 'can I afford it this month' or 'will it put my premium up'. Followed it up with some inexpensive private Chiropractic treatment to get long term treatment.

More worryingly, if I was to contract a serious terminal illness (like say, Cancer) with a socialist healthcare system you will at least get treatment, often quite good treatment at that (particularly if it's a common form of Cancer). Under the halthcare system in the US, if you get a terminal illness like Cancer and it's not covered by your insurance (which, even when it is, it is only for a set time frame, after which the insurance fund runs out) then you are out of luck.

In the US, if you have no insurance (or cash) all the local hospitals are obliged to do is make you comfortable in the final stages. The drugs can cost hundreds of USD a week and even though you might stand a good chance of recovery if you had them, if you don't have money, you won't get them and you'll be left for the condition to take it's course (which frankly, is barbaric IMO). People who are hit by illnesses for which they are not covered (typically, extended periods of illness) can end up having to sell their homes and live in trailer parks, just to have the money to pay for the drugs they need to keep them alive. Assuming they own their own house (i.e. they arn't already living in a trailer park in somewhere like New Orleans).

That's why I think the "Governators" proposal of a 'third way' - legally mandated medical insurance - where they state pay it for you, if you can't pay for it yourself - is an excellent idea.

People's health should not take second place to penny pinching on government spending. While I'm in favor of an interventionist policy and a strong armed forces, when it comes to spending on public healthcare I'm reminded of the Paul Weller's line that it's "kidney machines that pay for rockets and guns" from Going Underground (with reference to government spending priorities).

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

If that is all it takes to get all the foreigners out of the country.......let's get to tagging em' quick!

Re:I would leave FAST

[UncleTogie]

You're taking all our good Acting, Singing and Comedian jobs!!!

You can't blame 'em for takin' the comedy jobs... If the posts here are any indication, America is quickly losing its sense of humor.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Lord Ender]

A person can't. A large company or government could. Quite easily, in fact.

I'm just going to call BS on that. It doesn't matter how much funding big-scary-government has. It can't violate the basic laws of physics. These tags are SMALL. They have to be hit with a magnetic flux powerful enough to induce a current in their tiny coils powerful enough to transmit a radio signal which can be picked up at a significant distance.

It can also be easily jammed / spoofed.

It would be cheaper and more reliable just to hire detectives to follow everyone around.

No, medical tag RFID fear is just irrational.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Lord Ender]

we can silenty dismiss these canditates cheaply and effectively without any legal ramifications.

Your ignorance is stunning. There certainly are legal ramifications for violating HIPAA and other laws.

Also, how do you plan to gain access to the medical history database? You won't be able to do so legally...

Re:I would leave FAST

[eht]

How is this much different than license plates on cars?

They have no real use unless they believe you've already broken the law and want to find you, yet I have never heard of anyone complain of the privacy violations that having a license plate entails.

I already have a car registration, why aren't people complaining that registration alone is sufficient and we don't need license plates.

Re:I would leave FAST

[tomstdenis]

Driving is not a right, existing is.

You can live without a car. You can't live without being.

If you want to get around semi-anonymously take the bus.

Tom

Re:I would leave FAST

[rossz]

It's a sad thing to know that most of my fellow Americans don't have a clue about what this country was all about. To get a pretty good idea of what our Founding Fathers believed, just read the second paragraph of our Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ...

That's all men, not just citizens of this country.

Re:I would leave FAST

[David Horn]

You said it better than I ever could. Two years ago I was knocked off my bike by a car and taken by ambulance to Leeds General Infirmary. There were no queues in A+E, and I was admitted the same day to an orthopaedic ward and operated on that evening. Discharged two days later with a free prescription of codeine etc.

Not once did I have to concern myself with how much it was going to cost, or if I was going to get treatment. A relative has cancer and has probably undergone several million pounds worth of treatment over the last 5 years. A major disadvantage of private hospitals is that should something go wrong while you're in there, you face an ambulance ride to a major hospital anyway...

A lot of people bitch about the National Health Service, and yes, it might be performing poorly in certain areas, but in general it's extremely good. Given the choice between a National Health Service, and, say, cheap petrol, I know which I'd prefer.

Would I tolerate a small chip in my arm to continue to enjoy this, knowing that my medical records could be pulled up instantly in an ambulance; or ensure that I wasn't given the wrong drugs? Yes, almost certainly.

Re:I would leave FAST

[evilviper]

These tags are SMALL. They have to be hit with a magnetic flux powerful enough to induce a current in their tiny coils powerful enough to transmit a radio signal which can be picked up at a significant distance.

"Significant" is just a couple meters. That's more than enough to track someone.

I guess you are the one that can't get over thinking of them being used like deer collars.

Re:I would leave FAST

[c6gunner]

Unfortiunately for you, it's the constitution that laws are based on, and no the Declaration.

Oh, and there's also this:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men

Now why do you suppose they may have included that in their Declaration? Could it possibly be because they understood that a government is necessary to secure these rights for it's people? And that it is not the role of government to secure those rights in other nations?

Not to mention that the same men who wrote the words you quoted didn't seem to have much of a problem with slavery, and the inequality of women which persisted for centuries after they wrote this document. But yes, I'm sure that despite the fact that they didn't let women vote, and treated blacks like dirt, they MUST have intended to treat all foreigners the same way they treated white, male citizens. Sure. And I'm a japanese jet pilot.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe when you go to Canada you should be branded with the date of eatery and such

My my my the colonies are getting uppity these days

Re:I would leave FAST

[JMLang]

Our current Attorney General

may disagree. Apparently, the US constitution doesn't affirmatively grant the rights we thought we had...

Re:I would leave FAST

[lakeland]

You may well leave fast, but there are plenty of other Canadians who need work and I'm sure that an ethics question will form part of the job offer for your replacement.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Lord Ender]

I don't get it. You think someone could spread *powered* sensors at a 2-meter grid across an entire city without being noticed? Or do you think people would notice this and not start jamming them or demanding such devices be outlawed?

Re:I would leave FAST

[teh_chrizzle]

When you consider the the rights gaurenteed through the constitution applies to all people, not just citizens. On might say they are inaliable to all men.

one might say that, but one would be incorrect. one would be more correct if they were to say that the rights afforded by the constitution are inalienable to all caucasians over the age of 40 with an adjusted gross income over $50,000 annually ($75,000 for single income families) and sufficient legal representation to enforce said constitutional rights.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Jon Kay]

They have to be hit with a magnetic flux powerful enough to induce a current in their tiny coils powerful enough to transmit a radio signal which can be picked up at a significant distance.

That's why they have these devices called scanners, that exist solely for the purpose of reading them. You may have heard of them. They cost several $100s, and the price is dropping. Range is currently a little short, but clearly growing to where they could become useful for malicious purposes.

Can you easily track a particular person? No. But a scanner in a popular mall or restaurant or, as suggested earlier, near a stoplight, could yield a good information harvest. Do you want your local crooks knowing your medical info?

I still don't understand why you think RFID could outperform encoded bracelets for medical info. You still haven't explained that.

Or why the govt thought RFID would outperform magstrips for passports. Looks to me like fashionableness of new gadgetry, not real improvement.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Mex]

Shh, don't give them any ideas!

Re:I would leave FAST

[starwarsfans]

Good point - so why implant people if we already have it?

Re:I would leave FAST

[MarkAD88]

Can someone please explain to me how this is a violation of privacy? I'm seriously curious.

This gives anyone and everyone the ability to track my movements without my prior knowledge or consent. Yes, I know that theoretically someone can already do that by having me tracked by a PI or other such "active tracking" effort. However, the key distinction is just that.... one is "active" and the other is "passive". It is a direct violation of one's ability to go about your business without having every movement tracked and recorded for replay by Big Brother.

The medical benefits of EMTs being able to instantly know a person's blood type, allergies, and medical history are obvious.

Since I was 10 they have offered bracelets and necklaces that are imprinted with my blood type and allergies and medical conditions. I don't need a damned RFID tag to do this. It's just another excuse that is used to try and soften up the masses. It ranks right up there with the "Think about the children..." rhetoric.

What isn't obvious is why people think short-range RFID is the same as battery-powered wild animal tracking collars. Are they just stupid? Look at the way RFID works. A person CAN NOT use it to track someone as they walk around a city. A device capable of generating the power to operate these over more than a very short distance would be very obvious to spot and would probably break every PDA and wrist-watch in the area. Also, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to survey a large number of RFID devices at the same time because of the way collisions are handled.

It can and will be used to track someone as they move across town. Telling yourself anything else is just denial. Technologies always improve. If they can read an RFID with a low-power signal today at 2 feet in the real world then I will guarantee that they have something in the R & D shop that can do it at 10 feet already, and due to the of the technology, will probably be able to do it at 50 to 100 feet within a very short time frame. As for collisions, don't fool yourself. You pulse 2,000 tags every 1/4 of a second and filter out the ones you've already read and you've got a VERY accurate sampling of your "grid" however big that may be. If you are afraid of this yet you carry a cellphone, you are a hypocrite. For practical purposes, small* RFID tags are a slightly-longer-range barcode

I can turn my cell phone off. I can leave it at home. I can throw it away and buy another one if I so wish. It is not part of me. An injected RFID tag or subdural tag, whichever they chose to use, is part of me. There is no off switch and there is no replacement plan. If RFID was truly nothing than a slightly-longer range barcode as you state then we wouldn't have RFID technology in the first place and we'd just have better barcode scanners.

I strongly suggest you take the time to not just think of what they can do with the technology today but put some serious thought in to where they'll be taking the technology in the future. More importantly still, think of how this technology will be abused in the future, not *IF* it will be abused, but *HOW* it will be abused. We can't even trust the government or corporations with the basic information they have available to them now. Do you think they're going to grow a conscience all of a sudden and not abuse this new tool as well?

Re:I would leave FAST

[SkyDude]

No you wouldn't if the alternative is staying in Canada and making say 25% of what you could make in the US. Besides, when you exit the US, it will be just like checking out at Walmart.

Re:I would leave FAST

[rossz]

The point I was trying to make was that we, as Americans, should support people all over the world obtaining the same basic rights that this country was founded upon since it's _supposed_ to be a fundamental belief that this rights are inherent, not granted at the whim of any government.

Re:I would leave FAST

[evilviper]

You think someone could spread *powered* sensors at a 2-meter grid across an entire city

Not every 2 meters. You don't need exact updates every single second. One every 10 meters would work just as well, particularly.

without being noticed?

If you would have read my first comment, you wouldn't be asking that question: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=222360&thresho ld=3&commentsort=1&mode=nested&cid=18012880

You can "spot" anything. That doesn't mean you have any way of knowing that street light you're walking by actually has a built-in RFID reader.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Lord Ender]

I'm going to call BS on your entire post because of a flawed premise.

This gives anyone and everyone the ability to track my movements without my prior knowledge or consent.

No. We aren't talking about increasing information density on a hard drive platter. We are talking about powering a radio transmitter with a coil in a magnetic field.

That's old tech. If it could be done, it would have been done by now. The power requirements of generating magnetic fields have been understood for a long time. I just don't think your concern is valid because I highly doubt the technology to read tags this small will ever exist. B fields require too much power, and coils induce too little current.

Maybe with a nuclear power plant running a giant electromagnet...

Nope, that's a fantasy. Because these can be easily blocked or jammed, this is much ado about nothing.

Re:I would leave FAST

[c6gunner]

You're right, "we", as in all liberal democracies, should support the spread of democracy and human rights throughout the world. But that doesn't mean allowing unchecked immigration, or granting the same rights to non-citizens and citizens alike. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it's not. As the Declaration of Independence states - the purpose of Government is to safeguard these rights for it's people. Safeguarding these rights for your people also means protecting them from those who pose a threat to our way of life. That's why we need to push for the spread of democracy - so that OTHER people can have governments which will safeguard these rights for them, and so that they will not be a threat to us in the future. It is NOT, however, our responsibility to provide these rights to them, and we couldn't do it even if we wanted to. Something given is rarely truly appreciated - whereas something earned always is.

Re:I would leave FAST

[nasch]

I don't get it. You think someone could spread *powered* sensors at a 2-meter grid across an entire city without being noticed? Or do you think people would notice this and not start jamming them or demanding such devices be outlawed?

Perhaps not, but how many sensors is too many? If the only sensors are on the subways and buses, some major intersections, government offices, and thanks to their cooperation some local businesses, is that OK with you? They can't track you *everywhere* you go, so it's not a violation of privacy? Or maybe it's a violation of privacy if it's even *possible* to scan my information without me knowing it? I'm going with the latter. It doesn't matter if the power is abused or not, the fact of the power existing at all is too much. Therefore, I'm glad this is flopping.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

Such number could then be used to look up medical info in a central database

Run by VeriChip? I suppose you'll have a contract with them that insists that they will do everything in their power to keep that private until they find a buyer for the information that will pay them more than whatever they might lose to breach of contract lawsuits (assuming anyone finds out it was sold) for it. Or maybe after having it for a year, they'll send out one of those updated contracts like credit card companies love to do, giving them the right to sell your information, and if you don't like it, you can cancel your service within 30 days by going to the nearest VeriChip uninstallation center for the removal procedure, which involves a drunkard with a power saw.

The root issue isn't the hows or whys, companies have proven themselves time and time again to be untrustworthy. Your original question shouldn't have been "why does everyone think that this is a privacy violation?", you should have asked why anyone thinks this won't become one.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

No, don't question the man. He's a genius. There is no way to track anything with RFID tags. Select college campuses do not require you to use them to open doors in the form of an ID card. This is a preposterous idea. Besides there has never been a single instance of the United States government spying on its citizens.

I for one can't wait to be tranquilized, tagged and released back into the wild with the secure notion that no one would ever devise a means to read the chip in me, use that information to document my interest, say when I walk into a local shoppe, and then market useless crap to me in awkward sidewalk pop-ups. We should all rest easy in the blissful bossom of lady liberty's DNA databases, national ID cards and RFID tags. Let's be reasonable. We have nothing to fear.

Re:I would leave FAST

[MillionthMonkey]

You've obviously never had to wade through the quagmire that is socialized medicine.

And YOU obviously won't start having seizures if you lose your job. Fuck you.

Re:I would leave FAST

[phorm]

No, but they could track you around town wherever there is an RFID reader. I'm fairly sure there are some in the doors of Wal-Mart, do you know where the rest might be?

Personally I don't have a complaint so long as the things are only installed on informed, sound-of-mind, adults... with consent.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Lord Ender]

You're wrong. Those scanners are designed to read tags far too large to be inserted under the skin.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Rutulian]

Right. And just like anybody can waltz in and ask for your medical records now, they'll be able to get it much easier with an RFID chip. Sheesh!

Re:I would leave FAST

[Chris Burke]

Nowhere in there does it say anything about the constitution being intended to secure the rights of foreigners.

And nowhere in there does it say anything about those rights not being secured for foreigners.

For starters, that's because most of the Constitution is about what the government can do. While obviously our government doesn't have jurisdiction over some foreigner in another country, nevertheless our government is prohibited from abrogating that foreigner's rights to free speech by act of law, according to the First Ammendment. It says "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech". No qualifier for non-citizens. Neither does the Fourth Ammendment make any exceptions for foreigners. When the Constitution means "citizen", it says citizen -- and it does so primarily with regard to the right to vote, something only citizens can do, and also for eligibility for running for office.

Here's a key example from the 14th Ammendment showing the difference: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." You see that? There are privileges that only citizens have, but Equal Protection is for everyone.

The idea that Constitutional rights are in general only protected for citizens is pure 100% made up fantasy.

Handy link so you can check for yourself: http://usconstitution.net/const.html

If you keep making shit up, most people will believe you.

Pot, meet kettle. You should get along famously.

Re:I would leave FAST

[davidsyes]

But, what if you leave behind all your cell and other electronics just out of the fear of being tracked? Well, we've purportedly got surreptitious retina scanners in who knows how many places now.

I used to think of all those politicians, diplomatic attaches, and variously titled spies who schmoozed in the bars of DC. My ideas spawned to the possibility that numerous bars and cocktail lounges were domestic and foreign security establishments. They could then carefully pick up all the wine and beer glasses and lift the fingerprints and then database them. This could be useful for getting positive ID on people who might wear facial implants/appliances, makeup, or contacts and so forth. Anyone care to guess how many foreign nationals have been ID'd in such or a similar manner?

Nowadays, a nifty little handheld scanner can do that, plus cameras could snap away.

Now, tie those ideas to RFID scanners and repeaters. Maybe the surface of the leather sofa has embedded print scanners. They could have a surreptitiously emplaced X-ray machine, or even a DNA collector. Scan in that info, repeat it across the table, then update the database on otherwise non-trackable people who think they are not being tracked.

Maybe this works for movies, but never forget: Truth is stranger than fiction. (Even some of the movies of the past suggested props of trackers or identifiers in a fake tooth, which gave rise to interesting scenes of violence where someone was looking for bugs and had ripped out teeth of the spy or suspect. But, I ask, what if the implant is on the spine, or IN the gums? A slumped murmur of unintelligible responses would be all to be had. OUCH! )

But, aside from all that, if you think we humans are bags of mostly water, imagine if we had numerous agencies and employers or service providers all wanting a virtual stake on our bodies with their own chips on/in/up our asses. We'd be veritable bags of chips. If anyone kicked us in the ass, we'd spit out silicon or some other material.

Re:I would leave FAST

[rossz]

I actually agree with you 100%.

Re:I would leave FAST

[alienmole]

Your ability to think rationally has been seriously degraded by fear and/or propaganda. Implating chips in all foreign nationals is very much like outlawing guns: only the criminal foreign nationals would have no chips (they'd remove them if necessary), and the monitoring effort would be focused on exactly the wrong group, the law-abiding foreign nationals. You'd have to implant chips in all citizens for it to be meaningful, but then you'd have to do something about the 11 million illegal aliens who wouldn't have chips, most of whom aren't terrorists and are instead looking after your babies, washing your clothes, picking your fruit, and writing your software.

But it is interesting to watch fascism bubbling from the grassroots up, apparently with an utter lack of self-awareness. Look in the mirror: you are responsible for the world around you. If you want it to ever change, learn to think past the jerking of your knee.

Re:I would leave FAST

[architimmy]

Why? You got something to hide?

Re:I would leave FAST

[anto]

Which is a really nice theory not allowing for the fact that:
The Visa Wavier form you sign to get in specifically wavies constitutional protection for at least some matters.
The US has just passed laws to apply to 'enemy combatants' that they cannot apply to US citizens as it would be unconstitutional.

These days the US constitution seems more like something patriots cling to in vain hope the administration cares as much as they do.

Then again you can just 'rendition' people you don't like to somewhere your rules don't apply.

Antony.

Re:I would leave FAST

[tomstdenis]

Canadians don't sign shit to visit the states.

And as far as I can tell my friends from the UK just sign that stupid form saying they're not a member of the Nazi party (among other things). Maybe they should read the green forms closer from now on ...

Tom

Re:I would leave FAST

[BluBrick]

Those scanners are designed to read tags far too large to be inserted under the skin.

Perhaps so, but how do we know that those scanners can't read the smaller subdermal chips regardless of their design specs? And how difficult would it be to modify those scanners to be able to read subdermals? Or to replace them with scanners that are capable of reading them? It is however, worth noting that not one of these points matters a whit if you don't have an RFID implant.

Re:I would leave FAST

[suv4x4]

What isn't obvious is why people think short-range RFID is the same as battery-powered wild animal tracking collars. Are they just stupid? Look at the way RFID works.

I know a bunch of young, relatively technically competent guys, who are convinced The Government (aka. "They") want to implant those RFID chips to control their brains. They are dead serious about believing this.

All of my attempts to explain them what an RFID chip is were met with ridicule.

And you think people confusing them with tracking collars are stupid.

Re:I would leave FAST

[sandmaninator]

I think it would be in the best interests of the US to not make entering the US too cumbersome. Foreign visitors is good for a country. However, it is the right of any sovereign nation to deny foreigners anonymity when visitng and/or just plain not let them in.
Your give-an-inch, take-a-mile argument is a little silly. Why dont we just abolish the criminal offender databases; License plates for automobiles; Social security numbers?!? They are all just the tip of the iceberg, man!!

Seriously, this could be a useful option for foreign nationals that show up at US entry points with no visa. Just give them the option to be tracked or they can stay out until they get a valid visa.

Re:I would leave FAST

[sasha328]

Well, as a foreigner, I decided to not even visit the US on my next North American visit because they will fingerprint me. It is too much traouble really for me in AUstralia. There are no direct flights to Canada from here. I will have to stopover at the US (there is no such thing as "transit" anymore) which means I'll get finger printed, or I'll have to add several hours to my trip and increase the cost of the tickets to fly though HK or Seoul. It's all a PITA.
So, I agree with you. Run if you have to be "tagged" as a forgeiner. They lose not you.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Kjella]

When you consider the the rights gaurenteed through the constitution applies to all people, not just citizens. On might say they are inaliable to all men.

They did: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Unfortunately they didn't put that in the constiution and it looks like you can ignore everything not explicitly spelled out.

Not only should that apply to non-citizens in the US. It should also damn well apply to non-citizens not in the US, like those at Guantanamo who are being held without trial by the US government. It's a violation of their human rights: "Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him." It's certainly in violation of the spirit of the constitution, and probably the letter too: "No person shall (...) be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." There's not one bit to say it only applies to US citizens or on US soil.

Basicly, we all have human rights. In peacetime we have the legal system, in wartime we have the geneva convention to protect them. But the rights are far more fundamental than that, and you can't just wipe them out because you define up someone who's neither one or the other. At least, you shouldn't be able to.

Re:I would leave FAST

[bckrispi]

That's all men^H^H^Hwhite, male landowners, not just citizens of this country.

There... Fixed that for 'ya.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

The US is a signatory of the UN Charter and is therefore obliged to abide by the UN Charter and the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 12 is specifically relevant:
"No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks."
Articles 13 and 5 are also relevant.

The federal government CAN'T force anyone to receive a RFID chip implant. Otherwise, the US federation would be in violation of a binding internal treaty. ...

It's a shame the US doesn't respect international treaties it signs...

Re:I would leave FAST

[LiquidMind]

so i, as a non-citizen, having served 4 honorable years in the Marine Corps, supporting myself by working and getting an education, paying my taxes and social security, should not have any rights?
thanks.

Re:I would leave FAST

[ricree]

Personally I don't have a complaint so long as the things are only installed on informed, sound-of-mind, adults... with consent.

The problem is, what exactly does "consent" entail. What happens if this sort of thing became required in certaint contexts. For example, there are some fields where this would certainly simplify security, what if you were required to get an implant to work in that field? Sure you could always go to some other company or line of work, but the more standard these get the harder it gets to avoid them. Eventually, it is possible that getting a chip would be comparable to giving out your social security number. Sure, you have to consent to give it out, but the costs for not doing so are extremely prohibitive.

As far as I am concerned, we ought put a stop to this whole thing now before it gets too deep into our society to easily reverse.

Re:I would leave FAST

[c6gunner]

Here's a key example from the 14th Ammendment showing the difference: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." You see that? There are privileges that only citizens have, but Equal Protection is for everyone.

Actually, your example only shows that they use the words "citizen" and "person" interchangeably. As I pointed out to another person on here already, the people who wrote these documents had no problem owning slaves, and treating women as second hand citizens. Obviously they did not interpret their own writing the way that you are interpreting it today. So please stop with this "living, breathing document" nonsense. The constitution is mean to safeguard the rights of citizens. This is such a basic concept that the writers of the constitution felt no need to emphasis it, although their writing does give that impression at a few points. You just need to stop looking at it through the veil of modern political correctness.

Give you an example: we accept today that "person" means a human being, but there are animal rights groups who insist that "animals are people too" and deserve protection by the law. Now imagine that 100 years from now, some clown sitting at home on his computer, trying to argue that OBVIOUSLY the constitution was meant to protect the rights of cats too, since it says "people" and EVERYONE know that cats are people too. Sounds absurd? Well, you're doing basically the same thing, I'm just making an extreme example so that you'll understand how absurd your words would seem to the original writers of the constitution. If you disagree, I'd LOVE to see you explain just what leads you to the conclusion that people who condoned slavery and kept women from voting also intended to protect the rights of non-citizens.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Lord Ender]

I often wonder if paranoia is a condition independent of intelligence. I also know a few too many "bright" people who seem affected by it.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Anonymous Coward]

But hey can easily read the ones hidden in the soles of your spiffy designer shoes.
(Customer flow path analysis)
Also the tags in the new tires of your car can be monitored by those new sensors at intersections.
(traffic congestion monitoring)

Both low power, close range, and seemingly non-invasive and quite invaluable for corporate data mining.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Magada]

Wanna play spy games? Here's something useful that has been around since at least the nineteen-fifties: fingerprint-masking cream. Lots of versions, looks exactly like skin (some even crease to form pseudo-prints when dry). Never leave home without it.

Re:I would leave FAST

[alienmole]

Not only am I calm but I disagree with your assertion that I'm not rational. It's only natural to try and protect the ones you love.

Right, but the way in which you choose to protect them should be rational, otherwise you're simply going to fail to protect them, and in this case, make their lives worse in other ways.

You're talking about implanting chips in millions of other people -- there were 40 million foreign visitors to the U.S. in 2003, extremely few of whom pose any threat to you. As I pointed out, implanting them all with chips isn't likely to be very effective as a technique for anything but plunging the U.S. further into fascism. Foreign visits to the U.S. dropped by 10 million people between 2000 (source). That's bad for the U.S. economy (the linked page claims the loss cost about $20 billion), and bad for relations with the rest of the world. Many of those 10 million people tried to get U.S. visas but were refused, not because they were thought to be terrorists, but because the requirements for entry have been significantly tightened, so that many students and less wealthy people can't easily come here as tourists or even business visitors, because they're considered a risk for illegal overstay. Do you really think that this is effective at keeping terrorists out? How far do you plan to support the tightening of that net? Until the U.S. gets effectively no tourist dollars, and many fewer visiting foreign businessmen? Implanting chips in visitors is a sure way to hasten that process.

I think you may be wrong about propaganda not having affected the way you think. For a start, the idea that the source of all danger is foreign nationals is clearly false: one of the deadliest terrorist attacks ever on American soil was by Timothy McVeigh, an American, and millions of people are mugged, raped, murdered etc. every year by other Americans. So to keep your family safe, you're going to need to widen your net. Unfortunately, criminals don't come with a convenient label on their foreheads, so it's hard to know who to implant chips into in advance. Here are some popular suggestions which might appeal to you, or hopefully, help you see where your logic is going astray: you could put chips in all black people, since they commit the most crimes in the U.S. (unless they've been overtaken by Hispanics now, in which case, let's chip them too); or to avoid being racist, you could put chips in poor people, since they're much more likely to be a direct and obvious threat than wealthier people; or you could chip everyone who goes to prison, all the better to track them after they come out (doing away with the notion of rehabilitation in the process). All of these groups are at least as dangerous to your family, in practice and backed up by statistics, as foreign nationals are. So why do you want to target the foreign nationals specifically?

BTW, I'm a foreign national living in the U.S. I'm a partner in a software company that employs other Americans, and software I developed is used by American companies and by local and state governments. When you take action against all foreign nationals, you're taking action against me. Essentially, you're making me and tens of millions of other people like me your enemy, because you've somehow come to the conclusion that there's some similarity between us and terrorists. You say you're rational, but that's not how it looks from where I stand. You readily seem to equate "foreigner" with "threat". The word for that is "jingoism", and it's not rational.

Re:I would leave FAST

[Chris Burke]

Actually, your example only shows that they use the words "citizen" and "person" interchangeably.

No. Read it. Read the whole Constitution. Citizen is not used interchangeably with person; they use person when they mean person, and citizen when and only when they mean citizen. Unless you think "Person held to Service or Labour" (i.e. slaves) is supposed to be interchangeable with "Citizen held to Service or Labour".

As I pointed out to another person on here already, the people who wrote these documents had no problem owning slaves, and treating women as second hand citizens.

Actually, some of them did have a problem owning slaves, and the Constitution was written in such a way as to accomodate them while acknowledging the legal status of slavery at the time. The whole issue of slavery was a ticking time bomb that threatened to destroy the Union before it was even formed, and they weaved their way through it carefully. Congress had a moratorium on even discussing the issue until a decade into the 19th century, and the Union nearly dissolved at several points when that rule was broken and abolitionist legislation was brought to the floor. This contained pressure culminated in the Civil War, which Southerners will accurately describe as a State's Rights issue, but the right they wished to exercise was the right to own slaves. This was not an issue that spontaneously sprang up in the 1840s, it pre-dated the Revolution. What does that have to do with the usage of the word citizen in the Constitution anyway? Right, nothing.

You just need to stop looking at it through the veil of modern political correctness.

But that's what you are doing! You're arguing that nobody who owned slaves and disenfranchised women could have intended for an expansive definition of the freedoms in the Constitution that applies to non-citizens. Clearly such a person today would be considered a huge hypocrite, and accurately so. At the time the Constitution was written, it was not considered hypocritical at all to think of African slaves as sub-human, women as unfit for making judgements of leadership, while simultaneously believing that a fine upstanding Frenchman visiting America should be afforded every protection of his rights that a native receives. Remember, not only did many of the founders frequently visit European countries, the nation itself was still largely comprised of first or second generation immigrants.

Your modern PC sensibility groups racism, sexism, and xenophobia together, and doesn't take into account how each of these things evolved over time. Your argument would spontaneously combust on your monitor if you tried to apply it to the period between the ratification of the 13th Ammendment (abolishing slavery) and the 19th (women's suffrage), because clearly nobody who could treat women as second class citizens could have intended for the rights protected by the Constitution to be applied to slaves!

The 19th Ammendment wasn't ratified until the 1930s. Just because you, today, view mainstreamed racism and sexism as both equally archaic mentalities of the past does not mean that at all points in history they were either both accepted or both rejected. That's silly, and blatantly a-historical. Similarly, views of immigrants have changed, and not for the better as more and more people can't even recall their first non-native ancestor. "Can the government deny non-citizens their due-process rights?" is a new argument, which is why we have had recent laws passed that explicitly allow the denial of these rights and court cases both completed and pending regarding those laws and their application.

Your argument could equally well be changed to "Clearly nobody who would deny non-citizens their rights could also have supported granting rights to women and former African slaves!", and for the same reason: Your PC views are preventing you from forming an accurate picture of non-PC things as they existed over time,

Re:I would leave FAST

[c6gunner]

You make some decent points, but fail to realize that history proves your overall argument wrong. During times of war, foreigners in the US have always been treated differently than citizens. Furthermore, POW's and spies have NEVER been entitled to protection by the constitution. Since the new laws are primarily geared toward those who are actively working for or supporting the enemy, while being restricted to non-citizens, they are entirely consistent with past precedent. If anything, they are a huge improvement over past acts, such as the incarceration of all Japanese citizens during WW2. So like I said, while you make some very nice and well thoughts out arguments, you are ultimately wrong about the intent of the constitution, and the way it has been used since it's inception.

So, not yet mainstream

[Hrodvitnir]

However, sales will skyrocket as soon as the RFID chip is required to vote on American Idol.

Re:So, not yet mainstream

[garcia]

"+5 So True it's Scary" would be the proper mod, not +5 Funny.

Re:So, not yet mainstream

[geekoid]

this whould be modded -1 really, really sad,But true.

I'm sure it'll get more traction...

[$RANDOMLUSER]

When it becomes part of the hardware required to run Vista. That way, a generation of PCs later, everyone will need an implanted RFID chip.

Re:I'm sure it'll get more traction...

[dan828]

Na, it'll be required for the next version of windows when it's released. So we have nothing to worry about.

Re:I'm sure it'll get more traction...

[DoofusOfDeath]

When it becomes part of the hardware required to run Vista.

I think we're safe. Vista will never have the required drivers. ;)

Re:I'm sure it'll get more traction...

[Pichu0102]

Why would everyone need a chip to run something they won't use?

Re:I'm sure it'll get more traction...

[happyfrogcow]

Then someone speaking to you could open up an exploit in the RFID chip allowing them access to your entire memory. The governments proposed fix would be to cut off your ears.

Forehead or Back of the hand?

[coren2000]

Where do they put said chip? The forehead or the back of the hand?

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[Vengeance]

I'll tell 'em where they can stick it.

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[Sancho]

In this political climate, it's not an undeserved reference. A huge number of Americans believe that the Bible is the word of God, and they also believe that the events in the book of Revelations will come to pass. The question of how a self-proclaimed Christian like George Bush would allow such chipping to occur is interesting, but the question of how many Americans will object is certainly valid, and referencing Revelations in this way brings up that point.

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[jsantos]

Oh, but that's what's so popular about them... You get to choose!

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[Anonymous Coward]

Under the skin of the wrist. They then tattoo the serial number of the chip at the implantation site to make ID possible if the reader device is broken.

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[Virak]

So if we were humorously referencing another fictional work, it'd be okay?

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[AmberBlackCat]

Well they do humorously reference Wikipedia and Slashdot so I guess it's okay.

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[Goaway]

Sure, some are referencing it for that reason.

Some of the people talking about it here, though, they're obviously not. For instance:

http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=177104&cid= 14697991
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=184843&cid =15259769
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=184843&cid =15259805
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=184843&cid =15260576
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=129960&cid =10840822

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[Twisted64]

But when the insertion device appears, shaped like Jodie Foster's fist, you will retract that statement, trust me.

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[suv4x4]

Where do they put said chip? The forehead or the back of the hand?

Can you really imagine them implanting a chip on your *forehead*? Why would the gospels then even say this?
Can it be just a damn coincidence forced into that was way overused already?

It's 2007, if any of this was true, we'd all be RFID implanted roughly 8-9 years ago. Oh and by the way the world should've ended, but it didn't.

Guess someone up there rewrote the script since our rating is up. What a relief.

Re:Forehead or Back of the hand?

[Mythrix]

I hear the nose ring version is getting popular.

People please...

[JustNiz]

We need to stand united against this. No matter what, don't allow yourself to be implanted.

I'm really scared about this. The most scary part is that 222 people actually paid to have this done to themselves. What were they thinking? Can they really be that stupid?

Re:People please...

[InsaneProcessor]

YES

Re:People please...

[Anonymous Coward]

The people behind this project need to be shot. The slope is a right angle!

Re:People please...

[peragrin]

actually i can see a use for this tracking technology. Think a military complex. Not only does one have an ID card, but in order to access a secured area they have to have the RFID chip.

With additional sensors placed through out a complex, tracking one person would be easier. Though not fool proof. a dedicated attacker would still get by it would be harder.

I don't see the point of having these things in the general population though. or even for Foreigners. heck even tracking inventory by them isn't that great.(how many times have you set off one a stores alarms?

My cell phone will if it attempts to call out to a tower at the moment when i am to close.

Re:People please...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can think of a few people who have been abducted and had their heads cut off in foreign lands that would liked to have been able to be located..... And what about the ability to locate abducted children...... This is not a bad idea depending on the implementation.

Re:People please...

[Lord Ender]

Do you carry a cell phone?

Then you are both a hypocrite and and idiot.

It would be MUCH easier and cheaper to just follow you around the city than to put ultra-high powered RFID readers on every corner.

Re:People please...

[happyemoticon]

While I appreciate your plea for the safety of children and appeal to the terrorism boogeyman, both of which are highly effective ways to turn a discussion into an argument and villify your opponent, the type of RFID chip used by this company (almost certainly a one meter-range passive one, as opposed to a battery-powered active chip) would not have been helpful in saving people from terrorists or child molesters. When people talk about being "tracked" by RFID tags, they don't mean that Jack Bauer will have some unobtanium-powered device with which he pinpoints your exact location, but rather that, in a hypothetical world where you need RFID tags to make purchases and enter establishments, the FBI will be able to say, "Oh look, he went to Macy's at 12:00." That is, unless terrorists are stupid enough to take their victims to McDonald's (some child abductors probably ARE stupid enough, now that I think about it).

Re:People please...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't live in a city. When I'm in a city I can switch the cellphone off, or throw it in a rubbish truck. Idiot. You might want to look up 'hypocrite' in a dictionary, too.

Re:People please...

[k_187]

yeah, but they want to track everybody man. EVERYBODY. They're not your big brother or MY big brother. They're OUR big brother, man.

Yeah, I can't pull off ultra-paranoid very well. What all these conspiracy theorists never consider, is that if they wanted to track you, they could do it now.

Re:People please...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up.

Re:People please...

[JustNiz]

The difference is that I can choose to turn off my phone or leave it at home.

Also the chances that the government will require your cellphone to prove your ID, or make carrying a cellphone at all times obligatory is a lot less likely than them making RFID implants compulsory.

Re:People please...

[jeti]

You could combine a cell phone with a RFID reader.
This would give you an electronic shackle where the
critical part is implanted.

Re:People please...

[Reservoir Penguin]

Nothing wrong with it if you do it voluntarily. I for one dont care id someones knows where I go, takes a video, posts it on youtube, etc.

implant immigrants?

[elmaxxgt]

An idea to implant immigrants with RFID? that's not a good idea, and will give foreigners even more reasons not to like the US.

Delivery boy

[ThePopeLayton]

This reminds me of the futurama pilot.

666?

[Cpt_Kirks]

Hey, if they triple the number of implanted, they will be spot on!

Re:666?

[SNR monkey]

Think about this... They implanted 222 people with chips. 222 is three twos, which would could write as 32. Thirty-two, as everyone one knows, is twenty-three backwards. The number 23 is everywhere!

Re:666?

[MarkGriz]

"Hey, if they triple the number of implanted, they will be spot on!"

Great news. I just read that the number of people implanted with RFID has tripled in the last 6 months.

Re:666?

[unheard02]

"Think about this... They implanted 222 people with chips. 222 is three twos, which would could write as 32. Thirty-two, as everyone one knows, is twenty-three backwards. The number 23 is everywhere!"

More likely is this. Take 222 and add the first 2 digits (2 + 2 = 4). That will give you 42, and therefore everyone should get one of these chips implanted.

Re:666?

[Anonymous Coward]

222 is three twos, which is 32, the sum of which is 5.
ALL THINGS HAPPEN IN FIVES, OR ARE DIVISIBLE BY OR ARE MULTIPLES OF FIVE, OR ARE SOMEHOW DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY APPROPRIATE TO 5.

In the Erisian Archives is an old memo from Omar to Mal-2: "I find the Law of Fives to be more and more manifest the harder I look."

Re:666?

[iknowcss]

Will "THE NUMBER 23 IS EVERYWHERE" become a new slashdot phenomenon? God damn you Jim Carry! Wait .. if you take the number of letters in Jim (3), Eugene (6) and, Carrey (6) there are two 6s (2 * 6 = 12) and one three (1 * 3 = 3). Concat those and you get 123 and subtract 100 because one hundred is a perfect square!

AHHRG 23

( dead )

Re:666?

[zobier]

I find it sad that people are attributing the 23 Enigma to Hollywood.

Re:666?

[iknowcss]

Please excuse my ignorance. For those of you who didn't know that 23 began elsewhere, observe.

Re:666?

[caol.kailash]

You were right until the 32-23 connection. Actually, 32 + 10 (the number of dimensions according to The Kabbalah Centre and String Theory) = 42, which, as we all well know, is The Ultimate Answer to Everything in the Universe (H2G2! Woo!)

Excellent!

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent, We've hit 1/3 of our goal!

Re:Excellent!

[Anonymous Coward]

No silly,
We put 3 chips in each...

evil r us

Re:Excellent!

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately they meant to have all 666 in place by June, 6th of last year...

Congratulations Mr Bin Laden

[Timesprout]

Osama Bin Laden
Secret Mountain Stronghold
Durkadurkastan


You are a winner!

Congratulations Mr Bin Laden your name was selected from millions of entrants. However our couriers are having some difficulty in locating you so we are providing you with a bright new shiny RFID tag and tag injection device. Simply swab a spot on your arm (we dont want you getting an infection now do we), press the injection device against your arm and pull the trigger. Yes, its that simple! Shortly thereafter the light and sound extravaganza we have prepared for you will begin when the courier drops in your thermonuclear prize!


Yours etc.
G. W. Bush

Why stop at 222?

[BayaWeaver]

They should have done it on 666 people. Now that would make the news!

prospect

[mtenhagen]

They predict next years sales to triple.

Re:prospect

[jonnythan]

Bringing the total number of people with the implant to 888?

Perhaps I don't get the joke :>

Re:prospect

[jagdish]

Bringing the total number of people with the implant to 888?
Perhaps I don't get the joke :>

8+8+8=24

24 is one more than 23 and 2/3=.666

And again the number 23 appears.

Re:prospect

[maxwell demon]

2/3=.666

With correct rounding, 2/3=.667

Dachshund

[G3ckoG33k]

No ID tag? Soon enough my neighbor may be mistaken for a runaway dachshund - Go get'm boy.

lets have the chip...

[firefirefire]

fucking modded!!!!!!

Re:lets have the chip...

[Anonymous Coward]

pshh I'm already running linux on it

Solution

[DoofusOfDeath]

I read somewhere that if you want to defeat this scheme, you just need to microwave the person for like, 2 minutes tops.

Re:Solution

[e4g4]

Actually, the only way to defeat this scheme is to dress from head to toe in nice, shiny tinfoil.....and we thought RFID-enabled credit cards were hard to protect...

Re:Solution

[AmberBlackCat]

The part they left out is you have to make sure the person is wet before heating, or you might damage your microwave.

Re:Solution

[dyslexicbunny]

Just make sure you put a wet person in.

Are they trying to bring about The End?

[Anonymous Coward]

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Re:Are they trying to bring about The End?

[swalters1]

I'm not a fan of chipping, or RFID, or anything that's attached to your body that would link to financial data...why? Simple. If I get mugged right now, they take my wallet and beat me up. If I have a chip that links to my bank account.. well... they'll cut out whatever part of me that chip's in. Think about that, and leave the doomsaying to the evangelists and other looking to control the world with fear... like politicians.

Everytime I see these particular passages quoted I have two reactions, first, "I'm not religious, so I really don't care what you say..." then second....

You do realise that they already marked everyone.. it's called a finger print ID.. and you had it done when you got your drivers license.

As for the buying and selling, well.. it's called a social secuirty number, or a Tin (Taxpayer Identification Number), or anyone of a dozen other id numbers, all of which point back to you, and since the SS# is required to get a driver license, you're linked to that too.

oooo I hear the four horsemen approching fast... better confess your sins and get ready... Personally I'll take my chances with the Speggetti Monster here on earth and stop worrying about the next world and spend more time worrying about fixing this one instead. Be of this world and in this world and act as a steward to this world and the rest will take care of itself.

Re:Are they trying to bring about The End?

[Hyperspite]

It still might be useful to energize the evangelicals to not let this happen :P

What's the point?

[DogDude]

Can anybody suggest to me what the point of this may be? Is it for Alzheimer's patients who forget who they are? The website suggests that doctors can get your medical information quickly with these chips (assuming the doctors in whatever ER you land in have heard of this, or have a reader). Why not just keep your hospital ID card in your wallet? That's what I do. If I'm found dead or hurt, then whoever opens my wallet will see my drivers' license, and my hospital card, so they can call up my hospital and ask for my records.

I just don't get it.

Re:What's the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the point of you, you useless cum receptacle?

What the hell

[el_womble]

What the hell is wrong with some people? Who, outside of crazy, Nazi scientists and ralieans thinks its a good idea to voluntarily put a chip in a persons body for no good reason. The few people who this might help, the few who are randomly incapacitated by illness have several, better alternatives: bracelets, id cards and if you want to get medievil tattooing themselves. A better alternative would be to place the chip in body jewelery. At least then, you can remove it.

Why would you do this to yourself, and perhaps more importantly why would you invest millions in R&D? The only way this system would work on a national level was if it was mandated by government. If that happens its time to start the revolution and get in line at the gun shop not the chip shop.

Re:What the hell

[sqrt(2)]

These chips are one of those technologies that would serve an amazing purpose to better humanity as as whole if it were not for the inherent flaw that they would used by a species that is inherently flawed. Imagine being able to tell instantly what medication a patient is on, their complete medical history, drug allergies, and conditions. That information could save lives. Or imagine never seeing another story of a missing/abducted child in the news. Less important things to, you could pay for goods simply by walking out of the store with you items. Now, a lot of these things can be done now with alternative technologies, but if these chips could be implemented as part of a national (or global) system the changes would be immense (although not all for the better).

But we'll never see the benefits, and if we do they'll come with so many trade offs to our freedom and privacy it wont be worth it.

Re:What the hell

[revery]

ah, but the next generation of "smart" guns will only fire for people with chips...

You didn't think you had a right to bear... [whistles nervously] own a gun, did you?

Re:What the hell

[Anonymous Coward]

I have one implanted in my wrist. Am I afraid of being tracked everywhere I go? No the distance this thing broadcasts is only a couple of inches. Implanting was pretty easy too, 1 peircing needle through the wrist then just pushed the rice sized chip through the hole, I forget it's there most of the time but you can feel it if your rub your finger across the back of my wrist. Still haven't really made much use of it though but I've got enough ideas that when I have time I'll be implementing.

As for removing them a friend of mine had hers removed. It's just a small cut with a sterilized knife and some tweezers and it's out. No big deal.

Re:What the hell

[kabocox]

Why would you do this to yourself, and perhaps more importantly why would you invest millions in R&D?

Um, a unique ID chip that can communicate via RF to a reader is really useless to me. Now, if they were able to thrown in 4-8 GB storage, GPS tracking, and lots of medical monitoring then I might think about it. (Actually, you are right that bracelets or maybe watches would be better. It's far easier to change though also to loose.) I have a routine of when I get home taking my watch, wallet, and a few other things off and putting them all in the same spot. I only take my glasses off just before bed. If I needed some medical device to monitor me 24/7 an implantable and removable chip makes sense. I'm curious when the first GPS tracking watches/braclets for kids are out with a web tool that easily lets parents know where their kids have been/are. That'll sell.

Re:What the hell

[YGingras]

I'm curious when the first GPS tracking watches/braclets for kids are out with a web tool that easily lets parents know where their kids have been/are. That'll sell.

That would be so trivial to defeat that I don't see the point. You just stash the watch in the place where you are supposed to be and you are free. You think about bio-monitoring? Just elect a watch nanny who will put on the watches for the others while they go out. Each person in the gang take its turn as the watch nanny.

Re:What the hell

[c6gunner]

It makes sense to research this technology, since it could definitely have useful applications. For instance, a good argument could be made for chipping all felons for the duration of their probationary period. It would let you cut down on parole officers, would discourage re-offending, and would make re-incarcerating violates much easier.

Other uses: chipping soldiers involved in combat (dogtag replacement), young children for safety, animals for tracking, etc. There are plenty of legitimate uses for this technology.

Re:What the hell

[kabocox]

That would be so trivial to defeat that I don't see the point. You just stash the watch in the place where you are supposed to be and you are free. You think about bio-monitoring? Just elect a watch nanny who will put on the watches for the others while they go out. Each person in the gang take its turn as the watch nanny.

Yeah, watch is trival to defeat if they know that its tracking them. That's why some folks would like to chip their kids. It's damn hard for the kids to remove a chip. Not that its impossible, just that most kids won't go to the effort required. Now, if you gave your kid a fancy watch that they like, it just happens to have the GPS thing in there. Would they wear it?

Another really scary thing would be an ad. campign of some agency just giving out watches and tracking people and only telling them in the fine print. How soon do you think that your CES swag will start being tracked?

Re:What the hell

[Jon Kay]

...Imagine being able to tell instantly what medication a patient is on, their complete medical history, drug allergies, and conditions. ...

There's something I'm missing here. How would this outperform carrying Yet Another Card around in your wallet? 99% of us already have infrastructure to carry our licenses and insurance cards around 99% of the time, so I'm not convinced by the leaving it at home argument.

Of course, you're dreaming in any case- no way am I spending half my life keeping the world up-to-date on whatever medications I'm on at any given moment. Especially if I have to go to my doctor to get my bracelet updated every time my allergies come on.

Re:What the hell

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to know how many of the VeriChip employees (and better yet executives) have had themselves implanted with this crap.

Re:What the hell

[Anonymous Coward]

It's damn hard for the kids to remove a chip. Wrapping the body part where the chip's antenna is in some conductive metal foil is all it'd take to make it loose the GPS fix. Just as would be skipping school and going to your average mall: maybe I'm just unlucky, but I've yet to find an indoors mall where a full-sized handheld GPS works reliably. Much less something small and implantable.

I don't know much about skin's conductivity, so I don't even know how well a subcutaneous patch antenna would work in GPS band. Anyway, placing a bunch (2-3) patch antennas subcutaneously around your upper torso (to maximize visble satellites), and routing the needed wires, is hardly something you'd call "a chip implant". It's more like getting a pacemaker. It'd be similarly sized, and similarly complex to install on a human. And I don't quite see the GPS receivers being as low power as the pacemakers. They have a couple orders of magnitude to go to last 5-10 years, like pacemakers do ;)

There's always a potential for harvesting of mechanical energy, but that only makes the implant bigger. Or, you could harvest thermal energy and use the thermoelectric effect. Cumbersome as well.

Cheers, Kuba

Re:What the hell

[Reservoir Penguin]

The alternatives you offered are not as effective. Jewelry? A mugger grabs it ans then stabs you. And what use would be a tatoo for paramedics if you get seriously burnt?

Re:What the hell

[maxwell demon]

And what use would be a tatoo for paramedics if you get seriously burnt?

Does an RFID chip survive a serious burning?

Re:What the hell

[Reservoir Penguin]

Dunno, how deep are they implanted?

Re:Get With MY Program: +1, Insightful

[djh101010]

It's called the Patriot Tracking Program. Anyone who's NOT a Redubycan Party member is assigned a prison number for processing.

Thanks for your support.

Fascistically yours,
George W. Bush You know, it's funny how when people don't have actual facts to work with, they make shit up. It's even funnier that they don't seem to realize just how transparent and ineffective that tactic is.

I purchased one....

[Brian Ribbon]

.... but it was lost during transit.

Same, but different

[navygeek]

I can replace those RFID's for the fraction of the cost - with the same basic outcome.

Ladies (yeah, there are so many here) and gentlegeeks, I give you....

The dog collar and leash!

Already made fashionable by Goths and kinksters the world over - these handsome and/or lovely accessories come in a variety of shapes and colors to fit every occasion. Great for keeping track of guest workers, immigrants, and wandering children.

To do list for the tech community

[zyzzx0]

1)Find a few people who've been tagged and experiment w/ this RFID tagging system.
2)Develop 3rd party hardware and a web application that integrates w/ the google maps api to pin-point where such a person is.
3)Create a web page called Tommy Thompson Watch that shows exactly where in the world Tommy Thompson is at any given minute! At the very least, Tommy's wife might use the site. Hell, I would... Tommy's a sexy for an old man.

Re:To do list for the tech community

[Sancho]

RFID doesn't work like that unless there are receivers all over the place to send you that information. Or maybe you were just making a joke.

The front of the hand

[Anonymous Coward]

And it'll start glowing bright red once you turn 30.

Re:The front of the hand

[UncleTogie]

"There is....NO.....Sanctuary...."

Re:The front of the hand

[triffid_98]

RENEW, RENEW!

This proves the Flying Spaghetti Monster

[Anonymous Coward]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster has already created an animal with RFID. Well, close - it was a barcode actually. Anyone heard of the zebra?

In other news...

[Gerocrack]

... A former Bush health secretary has been deported to Mexico for violating his guest worker agreement.

how about the gut?

[elmaxxgt]

if you give them the finger they they will manhandle you and insert a bug thru your belly button!

Upgrades

[boyfaceddog]

What happens when Microsoft gets into the RFID reading business? The standards in place today will be meaningless. The people with the "fist generation" RFID chips will have to have those removed and upgraded. I can see people with two, three or even four different RFID chips in their arms, legs, foreheads just to make sure all of their info is readable by whoever wants it.

Have we learned nothing from 20 years of consumer electronic devices?

Re:Upgrades

[Anonymous Coward]

The people with the "fist generation" RFID chips

How big are these RFID chip, and where is it that they are putting them? That's a very bad typo...or at least I hope it is.

Re:Upgrades

[boyfaceddog]

No, those would be the Microsoft chips, and you gotta know the implant location specs are are a pain in the ass.

Re:Upgrades

[Anonymous Coward]

What I'm waiting for is when Microsoft requires RFID to use Windows, and the *AA require it as your viewing or reading license. 'Cause we're all pirates, you know.

are these 222

[sxtxixtxcxh]

the first of three?

I've seen this before

[jeffeb3]

I saw an article (I can't remember where, sorry for the hearsay) about someone modding their keyboard with an RFID reader, and he programmed it to the codes of the RFID he already had injected under his skin. This must be something different though, because he had two different types and they were both relatively inexpensive, nothing over $100.

I really don't see a problem with this so long as it's provided without persuasion. I don't want to have to get one with my costco membership or anything like that, and I don't want the gov't putting it in, but if it's just an easy injection (no surgery) and it would make my life easier (I wouldn't ever need my wallet) then I'd be all for it. It would be nice to be able to deactivate it, but that would sort of ruin it wouldn't it? I could probably ruin it by swinging my arm over the counter at Circuit city anyway.

I have one

[Anonymous Coward]

Implanted in my wrist. Am I afraid of being tracked everywhere I go? No the distance this thing broadcasts is only a couple of inches. Implanting was pretty easy too, 1 peircing needle through the wrist then just pushed the rice sized chip through the hole, I forget it's there most of the time but you can feel it if your rub your finger across the back of my wrist. Still haven't really made much use of it though but I've got enough ideas that when I have time I'll be implementing.

Re:story about this in Left Behind books

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget to mention that those books are crap.

Perfectly rational behavior for some people

[patio11]

>>
Who, outside of crazy, Nazi scientists and ralieans thinks its a good idea to voluntarily put a chip in a persons body for no good reason.
>>

Lets say I have a condition requiring a medic alert bracelet. I don't know, lethal allergy to eggs, perhaps (causes complications with all kinds of medicines cultured on egg yolk these days). I could quite rationally say "Chip me, doc" on Feb 14th, 2007 so that I don't have to take the risk that on April 18th, 2027 I leave my medic alert bracelet (or ID card, or other Protection Against Lethal Error Security Token) on the nightstand just in time to get on the morning commute, be hit and moderately injured by a drunk driver, and be killed by a well-meaning ER nurse who checked me for bracelet and chip before dosing me with something accidentally lethal.

Personally, if I had a condition that was serious, I'd go to the chip before body jewelry, purely on aesthetic grounds. I'm sure the doctors who put it in could take it out if for some reason it needed to come out. If they can pry out a liver and put in a new one they can probably grab a wee bit of metal from a place chosen because it was easily accessible with a surgical instrument.

Similarly, in the vein of making choices today to avoid making them tomorrow, I could decide now to have my paycheck autodeducted in December to fund my retirement account. Could I decide that in December without any loss of effectiveness? Yes, but the February me might not trust the December me sufficiently to spend on the retirement account instead of extra Christmas presents. Thus, I put it out of the December me's hands unless he leaps over unreasonably high barriers to overrule the February me's decisions.

Jurassic Park

[no_pets]

Wasn't something like this done in Jurassic Park? It was proven ineffective as all of the tagged and monitored dinosaurs were accounted for. Too bad there were others that were not tagged. Untagged or unchipped terrorists would be the ones to lookout for. Although I'm more worried about chippers than the chippees.

Re:Jurassic Park

[AutopsyReport]

Wasn't something like this done in Jurassic Park? It was proven ineffective as all of the tagged and monitored dinosaurs were accounted for.

Well I know that America has an obesity problem, but comparing yourselves to dinosaurs...

coming to the UK soon!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is eerily familiar territory in the UK. The government has decided that everyone in the country will have to have a biometric ID card by 2013 - this will allow all sorts of (largely discredited) benefits. Inevitably this will lead to the compulsory carrying of the card with the same effect as the rfid chip. - In fact if the UK government reads this article the new ID system could well move to this (we already have electronic tagging for some). Already the country has been described as a 'police state for moslems' by someone who has been arrested without any evidence or resulting charges, it is only a matter of time before this is passed on to the rest of the population.

The price of liberty is the price of a ticket out of the country - can I emigrate to the US before they bring in the same sort of system?

(posted as anonymous coward out of fear of the state)

Re:coming to the UK soon!

[maxwell demon]

This is eerily familiar territory in the UK. The government has decided that everyone in the country will have to have a biometric ID card by 2013

Unless that biometric ID card also contains an RFID chip, this is not the same. While the police may ask you for the card, they can't read it without you even knowing it. This especially makes it hard to track you using that card.

"Beep-Beep"? It must be Earth humor!

[HTH NE1]

"During the war, I was in my world's warrior class. We saved each other's lives a dozen times over."

"Commendable! But what does that have to do with..."

"With nanotechnology? Glad you asked! You've heard of it, haven't you? Machines too small for the human eye to see? You can even shield them, make them invisible to electronic detection. Like the one you just swallowed in that drink. I imagine it's firmly latched on to your intestinal tract by now."

"What??!"

"Oh, it's nothing harmful, Ambassador! It's a location transmitter."

[He points a pen-like device at him and presses a button. A light flashes and it emits a "beep-beep".]

"See? It should dissolve in about... five years. But until then, Ambassador, my friends in my warrior caste have this frequency. And if anything should happen to [this place], they have instructions to track down that transmitter and... well, why spoil the surprise?"

"This is an outrage!"

"This is insurance. What you do here is your own business. You can scheme, and plan, and play all the games you want, but get this straight. If you ever endanger this [place] again, my people will find you. And the results will be most unpleasant."

"I'd say he took that pretty well. Think they'll ever find that transmitter you slipped [him]?"

"No... because there isn't one."

"There isn't? Wait --"

"I lied. I figured if there were a transmitter, sooner or later they'd find it and remove it. But if I just told them there was, they'd keep looking! Indefinitely!"

"Commander, do you have any idea of the tests they'll put him through, the things they'll do to him trying to find a transmitter that's not there?"

"Yes."

Why this can be a good thing

[DoubleEdd]

People have asked why it's not better to just have a bracelet, ID in your wallet, or whatever. Here's why I'd like one so that a paramedic or whoever can get the info they need about me.

Two reasons:
1) I cannot leave home without it. I can't go anywhere without it, and as importantly, I can go anywhere with it. I can go to the pool and if I have some medical emergency it won't matter that my wallet is in the locker or whatever. If you're a parent, your kid can't choose to leave it behind (and if you're wondering why they might want to leave their ID behind see point 2)
2) It actually preserves your privacy. Sure, someone with an RFID scanner might spot get some serial ID number, but without access to a corresponding database they don't get my medical info. There are tracking issues, but they're minor. On the other hand, anyone who sees I've got some bracelet on immediately knows I have some medical condition, and they don't need to be scanning for RFID to tell that.

The sooner some of us have the option to get these the better.

Re:Why this can be a good thing

[geekoid]

You are assuming that your rfid number stay private. Since you will only bhave one, and every database will need it, it won't stay private for long. See SSN.

Re:Why this can be a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US, if you don't have insurance, you are FAR better off in an emergency to have no identification or wallet, because the paramedics will help out. If they find a wallet and you are uninsured, most likely you will be left to "code".

An RFID chip would just make things worse for those who do not have US health insurance... one quick scan of the RFID chip, and the decision is made to pull out the paddles and shout "CLEAR", or just stand there and call the coroner's van, and then make a story that nothing could be done.

If you don't think this occurs, it does.

An example:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story Id=6376588

Re:Why this can be a good thing

[DoubleEdd]

I'm not in the US.

The problem isn't with chipping, it's with your healthcare.

Re:Why this can be a good thing

[GrumblyStuff]

1) Yeah, that's great for you. It's so convient that they might just wanna make it mandatory. Imagine! People everywhere can easily be tracked. RFID scanners in business doorways, kwik-e-mart counters, park benches, wherever! But hmm, gee, that guy over there isn't registering.... What is HE hiding? Better drag him down to the station and chip his ass.

Part 2 in regards to your kids, I'm sure they'd just LOVE that. Forget about building trust and a solid relationship with your children, just chip them and maybe install a sedative injection system or lockon some shock collar. That way, they couldn't even run away! What a perfect system to indoctrinate them. We know who you are, where you are, who you're with... if we ever come after you, you might as well just bend on over.

2) Yeah, because databases never get leaked or stolen. No one would EVER abuse such a system. Right? Am I right? Who care about medical conditions, anyway? Is some thug going to be on the watch for medical First-Alert bracelets for easy prey? You know, nevermind that you'll probably look like you got one foot in the grave if you need such a bracelet anyway. And it's not like there's any embrassing, shameful medical conditions that'd require a bracelet.

HAHA, HERPES BRACELET! HAHA, "IT STINGS WHEN I PEE" BRACELET!

Sure, you'd keep your information and money safe if someone did try to mug you but they might just think you're unwilling to give up and then you get the the shit beat out of you. I don't know about you, but I'd be pissed if some mark I spent 10 minutes tussling with had nothing on him. It's assualt already, so what's a few more kicks to the ribs?

Re:Why this can be a good thing

[flyingfsck]

Old hat - stainless steel bracelets: http://www.medicalert.ca/

Re:Why this can be a good thing

[DoubleEdd]

1) I'm against it being mandatory. I'm against stuff that can track you. So no real point to answer there.

Kids - sorry mate, they're not free citizens in the same way adults are and the parents have a responsibility to keep them safe even when the kid doesn't want to be. There's obviously limits to how far this goes, but I'd say that for a kid who needs their medical records to be available in the event of an accident then chipping with something (short range so it's not a tracking thing) is maybe not such a bad idea. Slippery slope arguments apply, but parents can already control what their kids can do, and are expected to control them, so that's a slope we're actually already on - I just think there's maybe a case for moving a very small amount further down in some very unusual cases.

And this isn't about their behaviour - this is about their safety regardless of what they do so half that stuff you go ranting on about in your trollish ways are totally irrelevant again.

2) Databases get leaked and stolen, sure. But these medical details are details that are already tied to me in a database, are already at risk of being stolen and which I don't make a particularly big secret out of - I just don't want any idiot making assumptions about me - idiots like you who think I must look like I have one foot in the grave if I have something a paramedic should know about.

And as for 'it's not like there's any embrassing, shameful medical conditions that'd require a bracelet' I suppose you're in favour of freeing up all non-embarrassing medical information to anyone who wants to know it then?

RF...ID?

[abaddononion]

I wonder if these people are being assigned personal IDs? I wonder if they started at like, 000000001, or something. If so, in about 400 or so more people... are we going to have the man whose number is 666? If so, maybe we should kill that man (or woman, or little girl, whatever), just to be safe. It'd be the reasonable thing to do, I think. In FACT, they should go ahead and make the 666 chip, put it in someone, kill them, and then announce that they've single-handedly stopped the apocalypse, and God and his silly prophecies have no more power here. This is 'MERICA!

Seriously, why do people do these things? I mean, Im not a big believer in the bible, koran, or Nostradamus, but when you've got a horrible "this will signal the end of the world" prophecy, shouldnt you avoid it rather than run straight at fulfilling it ASAP? I have the same issue with all the scientists who seem to be determined to make killbots and "true" AI. Have we not seen enough Terminator/Matrix movies? What more must hollywood do to show us our folly! OUR FOLLY!!

Who?

[nurb432]

Well the technology behind this is sound and valid.

Most people that develop stuff like this dont have to wrestle with the morality of using the devices, or how they can easily be abused.

Get in line at the gun shop for the next revolution? Better do it quick, if you havent noticed the government is attacking that industry to remove it from the face of the earth.

Re:Who?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't remove that industry. What comes next? Lathe control? True--the Israelies have been known to attack machine shops with fighter jets because, yep, they are machining parts for their weapons. Gunsmithing is an ancient art. There is no way you are going to stop it. The only reason people don't make their own guns is because it's still easier to purchase them.

Doubleplusgood!

[filesiteguy]

I think this is a grand idea. However, instead of using it for guest workers, we make it tied to the activation of iPods. Then everyone will get 'em!

Re:Offtopic but I wanted to say it

[Goaway]

Look, you can't expect people to just read the bible without first receiving the proper training in the required rationalization techniques!

Role reversal

[Anonymous Coward]

Now your dog can find you when you run away!

Re:story about this in Left Behind books

[Anonymous Coward]

Since this is "Left Behind", when you say "bad guys" you really mean "non-Christians", don't you?

The Nazis had a better scheme for doing that using cheap visible tags - yellow stars, pink triangles, and tattoo'd concentration camp numbers once the "bad guys" had been rounded up.

MRI with this implant?

[Wilson_6500]

I have to wonder if implantable RFID could survive the intense magnetic and RF conditions inside of an MRI unit. The RF energy is sufficient to cause heating of tattoos in some cases, and RFID chips are basically tiny antennas, if I understand how they operate. Not only could these units destroy said chips, but localized heating from the RF absorption could cause some serious internal burns--especially if they're implanted deep or near to important organs.

The obvious next question is to ask how well these chips show up on standard radiographs. If medical record of these things is lost or somehow never made (i.e. company goes out of business and the patient forgets there's one in his stomach, or some records mistake happens) then I imagine x-ray imaging is basically the only way to find them just by chance. Metal usually does a pretty good job of causing artifacts on a radiograph, but these chips could be small enough to escape notice--especially if they're at the fringe of the field of view, or not in view at all.

It's not something to stay up at night about, no, but I think they're valid concerns to raise.

My Issues with RFID

[Paulrothrock]

I don't really have a problem with a permanent identification system. It would solve a lot of problems, mostly with our rediculously antiquated medical administration system. I cannot see why, in 2007, we are so reliant on dead trees to store our medical information and trust to verify a person's identity. Not to mention the problems that could be avoided if emergency room doctors could see an unknown person's medical history and allergies.

My problem with RFID is that it's permanent and easily read illicitly. Can you remove or revoke a chip if it gets copied? Probably, but it'll be hard. And if someone can read your chip, they'll be able to spoof your identity. Maybe a better system would be to put a hash on the chip of a person's fingerprint. Then the chip can be quickly verified, probably in the same reader, and would be more secure than relying only on the chip's information.

Re:My Issues with RFID

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an ID10t. I work for a medical imaging company that provides imaging and database solutions for medical patients. Our company is rather small, but we have 350 customers world wide. I can assure you that most hospitals have digital records by now. The technology is no where as complex as implanting tiny RFID chips (no dead trees required). The patient's info can even be accessed from doctor's home computers.

Also, when was the last time that you, or anyone you know has had a medical emergency and was not able to get the proper care because their medical history was not known. I bet it happens to way less than 1 percent of the population.

Your "rediculously antiquated medical administration system" theory is bunk. The cost alone, let alone the privacy issues involved, in no way comes close being a valid reason to insert chips in anyone.

Re:My Issues with RFID

[VFA]

This is really silly and unnecessary technology. If you are going to store a hash of person's fingerprint on the RFID chip, then why not use the person's fingerprint to key into a central repository of data to get that person's ID in the first place? RFID chips of the size that get implanted can only hold a handful of bytes of data anyway. It's not like they are little 1GB flash drives. These few bytes of info is used to store some key or ID and that ID is what gets used to obtain info. As one of the comments pointed out, these implantable RFID tags are not much different than bar code with a slightly longer range and not optically readable. The thing is, would you allow government to tattoo an ID bar code on you? Germans did this to the death camp inmates. I have a HUGE problem with that. Also, there is really no need to implant anything into anyone with a fingerprint. The fingerprint is already an ID tag. All that needs to be done is collecting everyone's fingerprints and entering them into a database. No BS RFID technology required. -- VFA

Re:My Issues with RFID

[Paulrothrock]

If we don't have an antiquated system, why does every doctors office and hospital still have shelves and shelves of medical records? Why has every doctor, dentist, and optometrist I've ever been to record everything on paper? Why does my wife, who works in the mental health industry, have to submit weekly paperwork that's only authenticated using her signature? Why does my health insurance company still insist on faxing my medical information back and forth rather than using public-private key encryption? Why is it that every hospital show still has people doing paperwork and signing things and carrying around clipboards with case histories on it?

And this doesn't just go for the medical administration. When I was getting my mortgage a year ago I had to fax pay stubs. I asked if I could scan and email them, and they declined. I asked if I could encrypt them and call them with the password for the encryption and they still declined. "We need a paper copy" they said, completely ignorant that the fax is probably digitized by the fax machine on their end, or by the phone company in between, but it's far from the security you can achieve through 256-bit encryption, which is freely available and cross-compatible.

or...

[Anonymous Coward]

Osama Bin Laden
Secret Mountain Stronghold
Some location less ignorant and racist than durkadurkastan

You are a winner!

Congratulations Mr Bin Laden- you win. I finally woke up from the drug induced haze I've been in ever since I first ran for president. I see that, with 9/11, you started a chain of events which destroyed The United States of America. Because of that day there are people in the United States who are actually willing to have a tracking device inserted in themselves in the name of safety. Granted, for now it is only a handful of chips and they are being used as gloified medic alert bracelets but what is important is that people are gradually buying into the concept that the presence of a security blanket is more important than its form. Furthermore, with the way Americans have been coaxed into giving up their rights with the threat of terrorism, we're only really one major incident away from bringing it to the mainstream. Then, truly, we will have given up our freedom in the name of protecting our freedom. Well played sir, well played.

Yours etc.
G. W. Bush

MOTB

[lifebouy]

Just let me know when you get to number 666.
I just thought of a jingle for Verichip:

If you're evil and you know it get a chip.
If you're evil and you know it get a chip.
If you're evil and you know it,
Get the Mark so you can show it:
If you're evil and you know it get a chip.

Idiocracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Why come you don't have RFID? UNSCANNABLE!!!

Let me know...

[nixkuroi]

when it gets up to 666 people implanted...then I'll be scared.

Men Only?

[cparker15]

When you consider the rights guaranteed through the constitution apply to all people, not just citizens, one might say they are inaliable to all men. (spelling fixed)

So, what, women are left in the dust? They don't deserve the same rights? They do fall under the whole "all people" moniker, you know.

Re:Men Only?

[bogjobber]

Looks like you might want to read up on a couple subjects.

hah

[Fist! Of! Death!]

If I am forced to, can I at least get the chip installed on my shoulder for cheap laughs down the pub?

RFID

[Ikyaat]

As a law abiding citizen I couldn't care less if someone wants to waste time and money tracking me heck ill give you my schedule. But this technology does have feasible uses. You could put all your bank and debit information on said chip and just wave your hand (or whatever body part the chip is put in) and poof you have purchased your product! or you can use it for door access and security clearance in buildings and you would never have to worry about forgetting your wallet or swipe card. Id like to have my car set up so that it will only turn on if My RFID implant was in the car.

Re:RFID

[Travelsonic]

As a law abiding citizen actually having more common sense than a peanut (unlike many people in this country) I'd appreciate it if others didn't dictate what I care about... yeah there are good uses, and I definately feel that they should be used, but to allow uncontrolled implementation of this technology is where it is problematic since the chance for abuse is always there. We have an obligation, if you will, to both allow technology to flourish and prevent abuse as well.

Re:RFID

[zuiraM]

I'll take the bait.

As a morally deficient citizen, I'd love to see this happen, as I can get my own chip removed, and extract yours after killing you. That way, I just wave my hand, and poof, I have purchased my products on your account, without having to obtain your PIN or anything, and you won't be closing it any time soon.

Of course, I'd keep my own chip around, just in case I'd like to wear my own (old) identity for a while. Or maybe just obtain a rewritable chip. In fact, I might go so far as to use your money to purchase what I need to clone a ton of these, so I have a few to choose from and don't have to go around killing *more* people (and hence increasing the duration of potential jail time: of course your murder was second degree, or even self defense, I can plan this for a while, you know. Money enough to warrant that.)

As a US-hating terrorist, I'd of course set up improvised explosive devices in various places you and other tourists would be likely to visit, or if your armed forces become a hassle, I might use directional antennae for this, so I could shape the charge to deal with those pesky armored cars, without great risk to my own civiliam population.

Apart from that, there's also the social hygiene aspect. You may have nothing to fear right now.. and I'm not saying you do. However, is it really the brightest idea to leave a mechanism in place that is virtually *ideal* for arresting citizens under unjust laws (e.g. preventative arrests, or hint-hint copyright infringement). Said mechanism is also ideal for tracking political dissidents or other undesireables *if* you should ever end up with a fascist regime or a dictator or such.

One final point. Elections. If diebold had a political agenda, they could certainly collect RFID information along with the vote, allowing further subversion of your "democracy". And there is a minor matter of people deciding "convenient" elections would be better, and politicians that may "give in" to what they'd love to have: the means to track voters.

Sure but...

[Ikyaat]

Can it play MP3's?

Re:Get With MY Program: +1, Insightful

[Fordiman]

Actually, I believe that was a joke in the vein of hyperbole.

Speaking of implants, though, I've been working on this chip that gets implanted directly into the brain to improve Slashdot users' sense of humor.

Then you obviously haven't seen...

[kmx69]

America, from freedom to fascism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_from_freedom_ to_fascism IF you take that seriously, which sadly i do for the most part, you will be depressed and freaked out as hell. Mark of the beasT? more like DANCE PUPPETS, DANCE...

Replace dog tags in military

[Sciros]

I am really friggin against this RFID tagging of people, but I would not be surprised in the least if RFID tagging were to replace dog tags in the military.

I also could see certain companies mandating RFID tagging for their employees. "Sure, we'd love to have you! Naturally there is the mandatory drug screen and chip implant :-)"

I don't really see the government doing this to all US residents, but it probably will be done to armed forces, likely some government agencies, and I'm certain some private companies.

That sucks, by the way, and no-one will be able to stop it.

Re:Replace dog tags in military

[rjmars97]

No one will be able to stop it? If enough people refuse to cooperate with chip implants it can certainly be stopped. If companies try to mandate it but people refuse, they will lose talent to other companies and find hiring new people difficult. If the military tries to force it and enlistment drops significantly, they will reconsider the mandate. I do agree that the military might be one area that could require it, but I would hope that enough people would respond that they would have to drop it.

My guess is that most people would not want an implant of this kind, especially if someone tries to force it upon them. I, for one, will never willingly get such an implant for dozens of reasons. Besides my objection to unnecessary implants, the security on RFID tags is simply not strong enough to prevent someone from stealing information or my identity. Identity theft is a problem as it is, let alone placing our identity in a chip that anyone with a reader can read. There are encrypted RFID tags (Speedpass, EZ Pass, and now some credit cards), however like encryption on DVD's, it will only be a matter of time before it is cracked (Speedpass has been cracked).

Re:Replace dog tags in military

[Sciros]

Well, I'm not saying that every company that wants to do it will necessarily manage. But I'm sure some will. Also, there are enough people out there who aren't against being RFID tagged if it means they can get the job they want. Right now it's a voluntary (and expensive?) procedure, but I really don't have that much faith in people to say that requiring RFID tagging will totally fail. As for military... RFID tagging is not quite as bad as being shot, and I figure if you enlist you probably have come to terms with the latter so I don't see it being *that* big of a deterrent...

Re:Replace dog tags in military

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that RFIDs could be used by credit card companies to automate payments in stores.

Works like this:
1. Enter Store
2. Grab RFID tagged lucky charms box.
3. Walk out (Purchase is made as you leave).

That sounds pretty cool to me. :)

Re:Replace dog tags in military

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in the military, and I've talked about this with a lot of people. The general consensus is: They put it in, I take it out. There is no reason for this. They already screen people for many chronic impediments to treatment, and take DNA samples before you leave for basic training. Dog tags carry info such as allergies to penicillin and the like, DNA tests are used to identify bodies, and there would be far too much resistance to requiring this.

The military lets people get away with a lot, actually, in the name of religion. There are even certain recognized religions that will gain you the authorization to smoke weed for religious purposes. This is too close to home for too many Christians, and I don't think the military (a traditionally conservative organization) will go for this for a long time.

J.

Re:Replace dog tags in military

[Sciros]

Hopefully you're right.

x3

[DCstewieG]

Well if nothing else this thread has shown us that Slashdotters are remarkably good at multiplying by 3. Good job guys.

Beam me up Scotty !!!!

[unity100]

Its getting real hot here - they chipped Ensign Robert !

$100,000???

[gibbdog]

So they're making about $450 per person??? That's crazy. These chips are cheap (I use similar ones in reptile and amphibian research). When bought in small quantities they cost about $7 each (which is still high IMO). I had a fellow researcher once question how much they bother the animals and how much pain is involved so I remarked that if he wanted to give me the chip I'd show him on myself that it isn't a horrible painful procedure, and he took me up on it. Long story short it isn't that painful, they don't seem to bother the animals, and there are some good uses for RFID... But it still bothers me to see someone making so much off of so little.

Re:$100,000???

[BelugaParty]

Because of possible complications with the procedure (infection, possible rejection, and such) the insurance premiums are probably high for the company. Doing anything, even slightly surgical with humans, makes the cost go up tremendously.

Alternative suggestion

[TheMeuge]

The best place to put this chip: the forearm. It's worked well for identification purposes before, and considering that ultimately it'll be used for the same reasons now, there's no real reason to put it anywhere else.

Maybe also couple it with a fashion accessory - like a pattern on the chest of various pieces of clothing, consisting of two intertwined triangles, lighted in yellow LEDs, when a person with a certain boolean tag in their chip puts it on.

Re:Alternative suggestion

[h2g2bob]

That's immoral and degrading. Now, if they could put it in the form of a suppository...

Re:Alternative suggestion

[ChaosWeevil]

Yes, in fact, we should put them in the right hand! >___>

Your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

Give me a good reason I should support Hillary Clinton?

She advocates video game censorship, the nanny state, etc.

Plus, remember Bill signed the DMCA.

Medical hogwash

[Floritard]

Can we stop with the medical scenarios? If you're violently allergic to eggs or randomly shit your pants and forget who you are then you are special and have special needs. You need to carry your bracelet or medical ID card around with you in case something goes wrong. We shouldn't have to install expensive readers in hospitals all over the country just in the off chance you might forget to take along with you the necessary indications of you special condition. I'm sorry but nature clearly does not want you here in the first place and if you cannot use your big brain in spite of that fact then you don't deserve to survive. Take some responsibility for yourself. This is a bullshit excuse to increase the ubiquity of a dangerous technology and desensitize the rest of us to its presence. Don't make it any easier to fully implement a technology where the main purpose is obviously to track citizens everywhere they go. And if you really can't be bothered to carry a wallet around, you're fucking lazy and probably dangerously obese as well.

Re:Medical hogwash

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the parent is flamebait, but that doesn't change the veracity of his comment one whit. Pity you can't mod the parent up with an "insightful flamebait" descriptor.

Industry

[nurb432]

A bunch of people in their back yards doing it 'the old fashioned way' for their cloes friends is not an industry. ( i happen to be one of them backyard enabled citizens, so peroanally im taken care of either way ). 99.9% of the people in this country arent competent enough to make their own. Hell 1/2 cant even cook dinner anymore let alone create something to protect thri family with..

The door to door searches will suck tho..

Yikes! Typos!

[nurb432]

I think my keyboard is dying.. sorry for the plethora of typos..

Re:Yikes! Typos!

[nasch]

Oh, I was about to ask what peroanally means.

MRI, thieves with boltcutters, and worse...

[Miamicanes]

A few problems with implanted IDs:

* They have to be removed prior to a MRI. Otherwise, some Very Bad Things(tm) will happen to both the implant and the tissue surrounding it.

* If they're implanted into an extremity (like a finger) to minimize MRI problems, you create problem #2: thieves using gruesomely low-tech means to obtain those implants and use them before you can have them deactivated. Think: mugger with bolt cutters and gun who wants your index finger RIGHT NOW.

* Current ID-broadcasting implants could EASILY be spoofed by organized crime with minimal resources in the near future (if not today). So within a few years (I'd say 5, 10 max) current chips will become totally useless for cash-free transactions (subway fares, vending machines, etc). And if they implement two-factor authentication (like implant + PIN), you've just negated most of the convenience the implant is supposed to provide. Challenge-response is a possibility, but that throws a monkey wrench into the whole idea of an open standard anyone can use because THEN you need to involve a third-party both you and the seller trust to perform the authentication... and collect a few cents from you while they're at it.

Here's a better idea: get 3M to spin off a line of NexCare bandages with embedded RFID chips. Or embed it in your wedding ring or watch. Or superglue it to a toenail (or fingernail, if you want to make a geeky fashion statement).

The point is, having something embedded that's almost guaranteed to be technologically obsolete within a decade anyway -- and can cause random grief with things like MRIs in the meantime -- is just silly. You can achieve 99% of the convenience with bandages, superglue, or clothing accessories.

Malfunctioning Chip?

[coast215]

Person 1: My RFID chip seems to be malfuncitoning. Person 2: Stay still, I'll go get the anal probe

snort...

[way2trivial]

first, places with access to databases employee people.
second; personal experience.

I am an employer.

I once had a manager at an auto dealership offer to run credit reports for me occasionally for a small cash fee.

I was offended, but consider, how many HR managers have access to other HR managaers that can run medical databases?

old boy network is alive and well.

Foresight.....

[IHC Navistar]

Well, someone had the foresight to implat the chip in 222 people, and avoid the bad PR by implanting it in 666 people.....

Damn

[Mr2cents]

I guess that barcode I tatoo'd on my forehead is now obsolete :(.

Thompson never got chipped

[Jeff Ballard]

According to eweek: Thompson also suggested implanting military personnel with the chips to replace dog tags. Though he hasn't quite gotten around to being chipped himself.

Re:Get With MY Program: +1, Insightful

[djh101010]

Actually, I believe that was a joke in the vein of hyperbole.

Speaking of implants, though, I've been working on this chip that gets implanted directly into the brain to improve Slashdot users' sense of humor. Well, thing is, there's so many people around here, AC's especially, who actually think that way. So it's hard to know (and, to be honest, care) if he was lampooning them, or if he really thinks that way.

Moo

[Chacham]

2 Questions.

1) Has anyone written a TCP/IP implmenetation via implanted RFID chips?
2) Does it run Linux?

How soon can we round up the democrats?

[Anonymous Coward]

Great - Free chips for all the democrats, then it will be so much easier to round them up
and send them off to labor camps, deep in hidden rain forest 're-education' centers.

Chips is great, so much better than the barcoded tattoo on the forearm.

Hmm, let me guess - the silent creep of government totalitarianism:
1. Pets
2. Felons
3. Any Incarcerated person, parking ticket offenders, etc.
4. Newborns
5. ....
6. 6. 6. PROFIT!

it is the mark of the best

[Anonymous Coward]

you got three 2's, if you add the three 2's three times what do you get??

2+2+2 = 6..??

Oh my god.

[222]

I didn't even know!

Credit

[cachimaster]

You have to give credit to the bible this time...

Genesis 14:10 : DONT GET A UNIQUE MARK, ASSHOLE

(That is my way to interpret it).

Can this thing be made to create a smoking hole?

[mrmeval]

If hit with enough RF?

What does it mattter?

[bacon55]

...when cell phones have backup batteries attached to GPS transmitters... Yes, all cell phones made since 2005 have a secondary battery with a GPS transmitter attached. The battery is attached to the microphone as well.

Re:What does it mattter?

[bacon55]

And does anyone else find the similarities between VeriChip and VersaLife (DeusEx nanotech umbrella corp), a bit creepy?

In the bible too !

[DrYak]

The number 23 is everywhere!

and it's written overall in the bible code, as predicted by Nostradamus and Da Vinci themselves !!!!

Tracking animals

[owndao]

And we were concerned about a national ID card.

Not impossible

[Shadowlore]

All the government needs to do to track is to mandate readers as part of commercial services. City transportation, airline, trains, Greyhound. Put them in police cars, streetlights, meters, signs. Mandate that in order to protect you or commerce, stores must have the readers at entrances and exits. Bars, especially, as well as any "adult" service. pawn shops to track who may be selling stolen goods. The library would be another prime candidate. Employers could be mandated to start having them as well. gotta stop them illegals you know, some of them might be terrorists, drug dealers, or other "evil doers". Many cities have "mysterious" boxes along the streets. Mysterious in that the general public doesn't really know what they do. Would you know if you walked by one of them that they were reading your tag?

In order to piece together your movements, it doesn't take many plot points. If I can spot your tag at the store, your work, and the occasional intersection that's all I need. From there I can start narrowing it down. Maybe the tracking software only tracks tags it's been told to, thus minimizing impact.

The catch here is that while this infrastructure is not currently in place, it can be rather quickly. Right now there is no incentive because there is nobody with the tags. But once they are in enough people, this impediment will be gone.

Mayhap it starts with criminals on release, maybe we start with sex-criminal. we start putting the readers in "sensitive" areas like the public buildings, the mall, stores, anywhere kids may be preyed upon. Maybe we then extend it as a means of tracking people without having them in jail. Gotta track the really nasty people like Martha Stuart you know.

Maybe we start requiring government people to have it, and thus the readers. Maybe we start mandating new automobiles to have readers that can periodically report GPS, time, and tag pairs.

Any any case, once the ball starts rolling it gets increasingly difficult to stop it. This is why there is, and should always be, concern over this.

Tracking millions of RFIDs is not impossible to a trained mind, or even a creative one. You break areas up into "cells" and thus have small numbers to work with and aggregate or federate the results up a chain. Kinda like maybe .. cellphones.

What isn't obvious is why people think short-range RFID is the same as battery-powered wild animal tracking collars. Are they just stupid?

Can you start out without insulting those you disagree with? Ad hominems are not indicative of a sound position. Perhaps other people have taken into consideration things you have not. Maybe, just maybe, some of us may know something you don't. Is that so inconceivable to you?