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Dept. of Energy Rejects Corn Fuel Future

eldavojohn writes "The United States' Department of Energy is stating that corn based fuel is not the future. From the article, "I'm not going to predict what the price of corn is going to do, but I will tell you the future of biofuels is not based on corn," U.S. Deputy Energy Secretary Clay Sell said in an interview. Output of U.S. ethanol, which is mostly made from corn, is expected to jump in 2007 from 5.6 billion gallons per year to 8 billion gpy, as nearly 80 bio-refineries sprout up. In related news, Fidel Castro is blasting the production of corn fuel as a blatant waste of food that would otherwise feed 3 billion people who will die of hunger."

596 comments

  1. zombie castro said what? by User+956 · · Score: 2, Funny

    In related news, Fidel Castro is blasting the production of corn fuel as a blatant waste of food that would otherwise feed 3 billion people who will die of hunger.

    He only wants to keep them alive so he can have a fresh supply of warm brains.

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's made out of people.... PEOPLEeeEeEe

    2. Re:zombie castro said what? by kenf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, Castro wants us to use sugar cane to make the ethanol, as they do in Brazil. Guess what is a major crop in Cuba?

    3. Re:zombie castro said what? by LoRdTAW · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually the mash left over from distillation is useful for live stock feed. You could also burn dried mash to produce power and heat. So its not like the leftovers are waste.

    4. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Refugees?

    5. Re:zombie castro said what? by rocketman768 · · Score: 1

      Tell him to grow his own da** corn! We can do whatever we want with our corn, because -- it's what? -- it's ours. If he doesn't like it, he can _try_ to invade us.

    6. Re:zombie castro said what? by myth24601 · · Score: 1

      Actually, Castro wants us to use sugar cane to make the ethanol, as they do in Brazil.


      What for? I guess those old '57 Chevys don't get the best mileage.
      --
      No matter where you go, there you are.
    7. Re:zombie castro said what? by vivaoporto · · Score: 4, Informative

      Bullshit! Read the fucking editorial, it is in spanish, if you can't read get someone to translate it to you. I quote here:

      "(...) independientemente de la excelente tecnología brasileña para producir alcohol, en Cuba el empleo de tal tecnología para la producción directa de alcohol a partir del jugo de caña no constituye más que un sueño o un desvarío de los que se ilusionan con esa idea. En nuestro país, las tierras dedicadas a la producción directa de alcohol pueden ser mucho más útiles en la producción de alimentos para el pueblo y en la protección del medio ambiente."

      Translates (roughly) as:

      Independently of the excellent Brazilian ethanol production technology, in Cuba the use of such technology to direct production of ethanol from the sugar cane is nothing but a dream or a fantasy from the ones who have illusions with this idea. In our country, the soil dedicated to the direct production of ethanol can be much more useful in the food production for the people and for the protection of the environment.

      So, stop spreading lies and RTF Editorial.

    8. Re:zombie castro said what? by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unless I'm missing something in translated translation, I looks to me that he is saying their soil is better for food and they won't be doing it. Nothing about the GP's stating he wanted sugar cane used so his crops would be worth more.

      In case your wondering, taking the majority of the competitions product off the market makes your prices go up. It is the free market thing.

    9. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks like those Cuban servers only accept one connection at a time. You have slashdotted them and brought down the Communist propaganda machine. Congratulations! Freedom is just around the corner.

    10. Re:zombie castro said what? by vivaoporto · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Unless I'm missing something in translated translation, I looks to me that he is saying their soil is better for food and they won't be doing it."
      No, he is saying, although their soil is appropriated for sugar cane (and I add, dutch, spanish and portuguese fought for it in the past exactly because of it), he believes the soil better use is for food, because people is more important that everything else. That's the point of the whole article.

      Nothing about the GP's stating he wanted sugar cane used so his crops would be worth more.

      GP implied that Fidel's interest on shifting the ethanol production from corn to sugar cane is benefitial to Cuba. Fidel's point is that everything ethanol is bad if land that could be used to produce food is used to produce fuel.

      In case your wondering, taking the majority of the competitions product off the market makes your prices go up. It is the free market thing."

      Yes. Except that there is no Free Market in Cuba. And that, even if there was, there is this little thing called U.S. mandated worldwide embargo on any Cuban export, so they couldn't benefit from it. Don't they teach those things there on history/geography classes?

    11. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mark parent overrated; it nearly qualifies as a troll. Castro has concern for the sugar cane market, but he also genuinely has concern for the welfare of individuals

    12. Re:zombie castro said what? by Marcos+Eliziario · · Score: 1

      Actually Castro is just repeating an argument from Hugo Chavez. Chavez' regime is heavily dependent on revenues from oil sales to the US, and thus, it's on his best interests to satanize ethanol production (don't forget that sugar cane turned into alcohol also means less sugar on tables).
      The worst scenario for Chavez right now would be a drop on demand for venezuelan oil. Without the american dollars he wouldn't be able to maintain his dictatorship for much time

      --
      Your ad could be here!
    13. Re:zombie castro said what? by Viper+Daimao · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Im not sure I undstand your kneejerk outrage.

      Half of all cuba's exports earnings are from sugar. Cuba used to supply 35% of the world's sugar, but now only 10% (though that's still a lot for a little island). The decline is primarily due to the price of sugar dropping 58%. Therefore if sugar was used for ethanol, it's price would increase like corn's price is doing now, and Cuba's sugar exports would approach previous highs.

      Which is all to say, there's not really anything wrong with that. Sugar is better at making ethanol than corn by a longshot, and there's nothing wrong with a little national self interest, even from zombie communists :P

      --
      "In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
    14. Re:zombie castro said what? by Marcos+Eliziario · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's no such thing as U.S. mandated worldwide embargo. I am from Brazil and had a girlfriend workin for a company which has some factories in Cuba (Souza Cruz Tobacco). You can find Cuban products (not so many of them) in almost every city on Europe (including U.K.), South America and Asia. Also, major european Hotel companies have business in the island. Fidel Castro also receives a lot of oil for free from his ally Hugo Chavez. The embargo applies only to American companies, and it's perfectly just, as american citizens and companies that were expropriated by Fidel's revolution never received compensation for the theft. Don't they teach those things there on history/geography classes?

      --
      Your ad could be here!
    15. Re:zombie castro said what? by Marcos+Eliziario · · Score: 1

      _catch_

      --
      Your ad could be here!
    16. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In our country, the soil dedicated to the direct production of ethanol can be much more useful in the food production for the people ...

      Which explains why people in Cuba are still on food rationing, and the Cubans now arriving here are undernourished, and look twenty years older than they are, after fifty years of this "progressive" land resource management?

    17. Re:zombie castro said what? by renegadesx · · Score: 1

      Castro and Bono should have a dinner about this and propose a concert for the "starvin children"

      --
      Make SELinux enforcing again!
    18. Re:zombie castro said what? by brianerst · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Actually, Cuba's economy has been propped up lately by an infusion of petrodollars from Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who has also been instrumental in raising Castro's profile lately. One of the reasons Chavez has become a powerful force in Latin American politics is that he has an enormous amount of money coming in from oil sales (Venezuela is the main oil power in the region) and is spreading that money around in good old fashioned money diplomacy.

      Chavez, therefore, has a vested interest in making sure that the price of oil is not affected by either the promise or reality of alternate fuel sources. He is also pushing against a US/Brazilian alliance to increase Latin American use and production of cane-based ethanol - he does not want to see either country increase their influence in the region. Brazil's Lula da Silva is hardly a US puppet (he's a leftist), but he doesn't hide his dislike of Chavez and has had a fairly good working relationship with Bush. Plus, cane-based ethanol has been an incredible boon to Brazil, vastly reducing Brazil's need for oil. It's also 6-8 times more productive than corn-based ethanol - done correctly, it makes real economic and environmental sense (if used as just one of many ways to move to a post-oil energy economy). Castro's editorial is just a followup on a conversation he and Chavez had on Chavez's talk show, "Alo Presidente". While it was billed as a "spontaneous" discussion, at several points Castro made references to talking points given to him by Chavez.

      Castro may be many things, but he's not stupid - Chavez is the best thing that has happened to him in years. If he has to sell-out a declining industry (Cuban sugar cane) in order to do so, he will.

    19. Re:zombie castro said what? by smaddox · · Score: 1

      In all seriousness, though, the human population will grow to devour whatever food supply it is given. The only way to effectively limit population is to limit the world's food production. One way is converting some of the food to energy, which in turn creates a better life for those who ARE alive (or at least the ones rich enough to benefit), but doesn't promote growth acceleration.

      It's sad but true - there will always be a portion of the human population that has to suffer. I don't study this topic, but from the thought experiments I have done, I can't see any way for everyone to have a high standard of living (especially since this is a relative term). At least, not for any extended period of time - resources will eventually run out.

    20. Re:zombie castro said what? by fredrated · · Score: 1

      "In case your wondering, taking the majority of the competitions product off the market makes your prices go up. It is the free market thing."

      "Except that there is no Free Market in Cuba"

      I think the point being made is that by taking Cuban sugar off the American market we have driven up the price Americans pay for sugar.

    21. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Don't they teach those things there on history/geography classes?

      This is America, sir. Clearly you have mistaken us for a people who give a crap about either geography or history.
    22. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nope, in America we get our Cuba history based solely on the Bay of Pigs fiasco and Cuban Missle crisis. We like our beer cold, our Commies extremist, and our homosexuals FLAMING, to misappropriate a Homer quote.

    23. Re:zombie castro said what? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Sugar cane is a much better source for alcohol giving a much more energy than corn can. Corn is just way too low in energy to be useful.

      The price of corn last year was about as high as it has ever been. In a year where the corn harvest was much larger than normal. Basically indicating that the demand was much higher than usual. While that is good for corn farmers, it hardly lends itself to fueling cars when there are better places to go for alcohol.

    24. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shh, it's a happy fun land in Cuba, with sunshine rivers and lollipop fields and a chicken in every belly. Communism works. Castro is a kind leader. Only the US is a fucked up shithole.

    25. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Compensation for the Theft? LOL. they were just taking back that which was rightly theirs."

      How were factories and refineries built with 100% private funds rightfully theirs? I guess that means the BMW factory down the road is rightfully mine.

    26. Re:zombie castro said what? by Shawn+is+an+Asshole · · Score: 1

      Fuel should be made from hemp instead. Though the "think of the children" asshats will never allow that to happen.

      --
      "It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
    27. Re:zombie castro said what? by vandan · · Score: 1, Funny

      And what dictatorship would that be?

      Chavez has was each successive election with a greater majority than the last. That's a lot more than anyone can say for Dubya. Do you even know what a dictatorship is?

    28. Re:zombie castro said what? by SerpentMage · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Chavez is moving from elected to dictatorship! Look at the statements he has made when the constitution requires him to step down. He says he will not step down, but change the constitution. He also now has power to do whatever he wants. BTW one tell tale sign that he is a dictator is his every increasing majority! After all Saddam had something like 98% of the vote, but I doubt anybody would say he was democratically elected!

      Holding an election does not necessarily imply democracy... Democracy is the ability to vote and have freedoms without the interference of government. The interference part is definitely not happening with Chavez!

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    29. Re:zombie castro said what? by vivaoporto · · Score: 4, Informative

      Hey man, seems like we went to the same schools tho, because I'm also a Brazilian :) Anyway, you may want to read the Helms-Burton Act, passed in 1996 by the U.S. congress, and that mandates, among other things:

      * International Sanctions against the Castro Government. Economic embargo, any non-US company that deals economically with Cuba can be subjected to legal action and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Sanctions may be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This means that internationally operating companies have to choose between Cuba and the US, which is a much larger market.

      IF that is not enough an worldwide embargo, what is?

      And I know they teach this on Brazilian schools, so, let's cut the "don't they teach this" thing and move on.

    30. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'there is this little thing called U.S. mandated worldwide embargo on any Cuban export'

      no there isn't. theres a us import ban on cuban goods. the usa isnt 'worldwide'. cuban imports are perfectly legal in most of the world.

    31. Re:zombie castro said what? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      Okay, I get the feeding of 3 billion people on these resources.. but really, are all three billion going to die without it? If that were true, the world's population issues would be all but over by now..

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    32. Re:zombie castro said what? by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      No it belongs to the popular liberation front.

    33. Re:zombie castro said what? by asninn · · Score: 1

      As others have already said, there is no worldwide embargo; if I wanted to, for example, I (in Europe) could go and buy Cuban cigars in any cigar store without problems. (And I mean cigars that are actually from Cuba, not just ones where the manufacturer decided to call them "Cuban" in order to boost sales.)

      Not that it makes much of a difference: Cuba is still getting hurt by the US-American embargo a lot, of course.

      --
      butter the donkey
    34. Re:zombie castro said what? by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Sorry there is no worldwide embargo, Europe does a lot of business with Cuba, the US embargo is self inflicted to keep the Cuban exilants in Florida calm and in line for the next votes. Everyone over here in Europe knows this is the only reason.

      Btw. another funny thing is, that Cuba probably never would have gone communistic if the USA didnt act so stupidly in the early 60s. There was a famous quote of one of the former sovjet leaders (Chrustchov I think) which is pretty well known over here in Europe, which said, our best ally to drive Cuba into our arms is the USA themselves. Cuba might have ended communistic, but it also could have ended differently, only one constant is there Castro would have been leader, nevertheless.

      Castro probably would have ended like every other person being a dictator over his country, he just ran into the arms of the nation which gave him enough money to sustain his government. Nowadays he is just a hyppocrite, trying to sustain power, and the USA still does a very good job to give him the fuel which is needed for his propaganda, instead of getting off their collective asses and start talking to the guy and his government!

    35. Re:zombie castro said what? by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Problem is it does not work out that way.... ;-) The reality simply is lots of companies worldwide make good deals with Cuba, mainly the european tourist industry... There are ways to bypass the problem, either you do not do any business with the USA, the market is worldwide anyway and the USA is not that important anymore. Or you might end up making your sidecompany for those deals... The only stupdities you still encounter is that if you want to enter cuba, you have to fly in from Europe or Carribean European territory, or from a third party island! The funny thing is, that the Castro Regime probably already would have gone the way of the Dodo if the USA would have acted decently on their parts! But Cuban exile voters in Florida are reason enough to keep this stupidity up and running ad finitum. The funny thing is that exactly those voters prevent what they want most by acting the way they do!

    36. Re:zombie castro said what? by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      Perhaps Fidel could switch the land that produces his cigar tobacco over to food production? Anyone know offhand what the opportunity cost (in loaves of bread) of a cigar[ette] is?

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    37. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are from Brazil and you would likely say that... Brazil is not affected by the embargo so much..

      But US has this rule that any ship which docks in Cuba cannot touch any part of US...

      Which means that any European and Asian ships have to make one-way full journeys to cuba; either take goods there and come back empty or go empty and load your ships with Sugar.
        This makes trading with cuba expensive. Not to mention airlines cannot have flights refuelling off florida or something...

    38. Re:zombie castro said what? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

      I think the point being made is that by taking Cuban sugar off the American market we have driven up the price Americans pay for sugar. Last I checked, the price of sugar is not a problem in the US. Sugar is so cheap, that one third of us are overweight, and another third are obese. Just go into any store and you'll see that the cheapest foods are the ones that contain lots of sugar.
    39. Re:zombie castro said what? by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      While the political culture of caudallismo is worrisome (and is quite independent of left- vs. right-wing), it still is a long way from being a true dictatorship in Venezuela. I'm a leftist who thinks Chavez is a populist demagogue who can only fund his social revolution with oil revenues that won't last forever, but - and I say this without hysteria - I don't think Venezuela is any less of a democracy than the US is. The concentration of wealth in Venezuela was so bad for so long, generally under neoliberal guidelines: the conditions of the majority of Venezuelans has materially improved since Chavez got his project underway. I know it isn't sustainable, but neither was the concentration of wealth which generally wound up in Miami, either, which is the end result of neoliberal policies.

    40. Re:zombie castro said what? by Pentagram · · Score: 1

      BTW one tell tale sign that he is a dictator is his every increasing majority! After all Saddam had something like 98% of the vote, but I doubt anybody would say he was democratically elected!

      So increasing majority == dictator? Which kind of bizarro world do you inhabit?

      As far as I know, Saddam never held public elections, but he certainly didn't hold them under the approval of international observers. Chavez did.

    41. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I don't think Venezuela is any less of a democracy than the US is."

      Wow. I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

    42. Re:zombie castro said what? by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      Not true. Western nations are declining ; the only reason for any population growth in many of them is the influx of immigrants from poorer nations. The statistic of 2.4 children is just not accurate any more. Most of us have rapidly ageing populations (in that the proportion of old people to young people is rising). This will lead to a situation where it will no longer be the children and grandchildren of oldies supporting them in their twilight years, but the state and possibly young immigrants. Either that, or we'll all be left to rot, because neither of those groups actually cares about a bunch of fat, senile, unproductive, whiteys. Our own kids probably don't care either.

      It would seem that the way to limit world population is to give everyone a huge colour TV. This induces the cultural and societal malaise of the West that causes poor marital relations, consumerism as a driving force in your life instead of family, and the attendant variables like breeding rate drop tremendously.

      Not that I advocate unrestricted breeding. I support a reduced human population on this planet - it's the only way we are going to be sustainable, barring developments in technology. But I forsee problems occurring because of the shrinking youth population in western nations. It's shrinking too fast.

    43. Re:zombie castro said what? by k8to · · Score: 1

      Same delicious taste, with entirely no content.

      --
      -josh
    44. Re:zombie castro said what? by Ubergrendle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The embargo applies only to American companies, and it's perfectly just, as american citizens and companies that were expropriated by Fidel's revolution never received compensation for the theft. Don't they teach those things there on history/geography classes?"

      Still waiting for US reparations for the Revolutionary War. My great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather's business interests were negatively impacted.

      Although in spirit I agree the embargo only applies to American companies and citizens, in practice it hasn't been limited to such.

      Most of the world recognises that the Cuban embargo is the result of confused Miami/Florida politics and a saving face gesture for American foreign diplomacy. The US does business with far worse countries and dictatorships than Cuba, and the embargo policy is a colossal failure -- if only because the rest of the world ignores it.

      --
      John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
    45. Re:zombie castro said what? by emamousette · · Score: 1

      Not really: corn is cheap, and a good majority of the fattening stuff out there contains corn syrups and not cane sugar.

    46. Re:zombie castro said what? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      That would be incredibly stupid. Cuban cigars are a luxury product worldwide. With the price of a box of cigars, they can buy a lot of food and medicine they couldn't produce themselves.

    47. Re:zombie castro said what? by indifferent+children · · Score: 1
      the cheapest foods are the ones that contain lots of sugar

      Actually, the worst foods usually contain "high fructose corn syrup". It's not that sugar is really expensive, but they can squeeze out a little more profit by using something even cheaper. For me, seeing HFCS on the label is a clear indication that the product is crap and to be avoided.

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    48. Re:zombie castro said what? by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

      Yes you can argue of a relationship between majority and dictatorship. A simple majority implies an active opposition. A majority of say 60% implies many people are for a particular issue. Chavez won with 68% of the vote. This is 68% of the popular vote and it is extremely difficult to get. This does imply a lack of opposition through intimidation, rampant populism, or some other ways and means.

      I consider America, Canada, and most European countries as true democracies. Take a look at election results and you will rarely see a 2/3 victory. In most countries 2/3 of the vote is necessary to make constitutional changes because usually it is very very difficult to get 2/3 of the vote.

      Since Chavez and his cronies have over 2/3 of the vote they can do whatever they please and do not have to ask anybody for permission. Up to this point Chavez was a populist leader, now he is becoming a populist dictator, and in four years when he suppresses the opposition he will have become an official dictator.

      Here are the things Chavez is doing that can be construed as dictator:

      Price Controls:

      http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news -11/1175232470107850.xml&coll=1

      - He used to take home $930 a month from his butcher shop at the Guacaipuro Market. But that ended when the Venezuelan government cracked down on butchers and grocers who were selling products above price controls.

      Nationalization:

      http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr00 4=o9k4jttqk2.app7b&page=NewsArticle&id=6573&news_i v_ctrl=1261

      - On Jan. 8, Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez sent tremors through the international capitalist market when he announced a new wave of nationalizations. These nationalizations would eliminate foreign control over the country's largest telecommunications and electricity companies.

      Freedom of the press:

      http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/03/23/en_ing_a rt_press-freedom-is-det_23A848043.shtml
      http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/03/17/ap352649 9.html

      - Venezuela is intensifying a campaign against the media criticizing President Hugo Chávez' attempts at seizing freedom of expression for his self-proclaimed socialist revolution, the Inter-American Press Association said on Monday.
      - Press freedom watchdogs have accused Chavez of using the judiciary and new legislation restricting broadcast content to silence critics. Chavez denies threatening press freedoms and accuses Venezuela's privately owned media of conspiring to topple his government.

      Yes Chavez is moving into dictatorship!

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    49. Re:zombie castro said what? by tbone1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Fidel's point is that everything ethanol is bad if land that could be used to produce food is used to produce fuel.

      Hm, so would land dedicated to timber also be put to better use if it was put to food?

      Pardon my cynicism, but this smacks of him setting up a call for central planning and control, which has worked so well in Cuba and Eastern Europe.

      Maybe in Cuba there is a need for more food production. However, in the US, we are doing okay. The only Americans starving are Hollywood actresses and people who prefer to use their assets on drugs. We export a lot of food from here, and Americans could stand to cut back on their consumption, according to people in other countries. In fact, since a lot of the central planning (aka USDA subsidies and programs) have been reduced, America's agricultural production has increased.

      But there is more to it than that. A free market allows people to better respond to demands and needs than central planning ever could. I don't know the latest statistics on these facts, but consider this data on the US from the end of World War II to 1990. In those 55 years, the amount of forest acreage in the United States east of the Mississippi River quadrupled. Yes, quadrupled, and it did this in the most densely populated part of the country during a time of rapid population increase and unprecedented urban sprawl. How? Agriculture became MUCH more efficient through technology and improvements in knowledge and technique. (Example: guano, aka bat crap, is now used on cotton fields because of its high mineral content, so cotton can be grown with less crop rotation.) Also, much of the farmland that became forest was the land that made for lower quality farmland: kind swampy, or poor soil, or on a bit of a slope, etc. Market forces responded to changes in demand, price, soil quality, etc. The system worked, particularly when the government didn't tell farmers what to do (either expressly or through subsidies).

      In contrast, in Fidel's Cuba, where they boil stones for soup, there has been tremendous environmental damage to meet the bureaucratic goals of production which are based more on political theory and political wrangling than the needs and desires of the Cuban citizens. You know, the world would be a far, far better place today if that wanker had learned to hit a curve ball.

      --

      The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
    50. Re:zombie castro said what? by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      Remember why it was made of "PEOPLEeeEeEe"? Because global warming made for a nice year-round heat-wave and the environment was all fucked up - including the seas, and the plankton SG is supposedly made from is mostly gone.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    51. Re:zombie castro said what? by Pentagram · · Score: 1

      Chavez won with 68% of the vote. This is 68% of the popular vote and it is extremely difficult to get. This does imply a lack of opposition through intimidation, rampant populism, or some other ways and means.

      Well if you have any evidence that the electorate has been intimidated, please post it. As for saying that he won 68% of the vote through "rampant populism" -- well that's tautalogical isn't it? If he wins such a high proportion of the vote, he is indeed rapantly popular. I don't see anything wrong with "rampant populism" -- we could do with a bit more of that in other democracies.

      He used to take home $930 a month from his butcher shop at the Guacaipuro Market. But that ended when the Venezuelan government cracked down on butchers and grocers who were selling products above price controls.

      It's a policy of a controlled economy, or socialism. You may not like it, but that does not mean he is a dictator.

      On Jan. 8, Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez sent tremors through the international capitalist market when he announced a new wave of nationalizations. These nationalizations would eliminate foreign control over the country's largest telecommunications and electricity companies.

      Surely you can't seriously be equating nationalisation with dictatorship? Again, you might not like it, but it is not dictatorship. If the people of Venezuela don't like it they are free to elect someone else.

      - Venezuela is intensifying a campaign against the media criticizing President Hugo Chávez' attempts at seizing freedom of expression for his self-proclaimed socialist revolution, the Inter-American Press Association said on Monday.
      - Press freedom watchdogs have accused Chavez of using the judiciary and new legislation restricting broadcast content to silence critics. Chavez denies threatening press freedoms and accuses Venezuela's privately owned media of conspiring to topple his government.


      So the privately owned media are anti-Chavez? Well hardly surprising -- the media in the West is pretty right wing too. Although the very fact that there is privately owned media that can criticise Chavez is evidence that he isn't a dictator. Also the fact that he manages to get such high approval ratings even with the opposition of the media just shows how popular he really is.

    52. Re:zombie castro said what? by general+scruff · · Score: 1

      You must be starving, or have a good co-op around where you live. 90% of the stuff I see now a days has HFCS.

      --
      As a rule, I never trust dark brown ketchup.
    53. Re:zombie castro said what? by gfilion · · Score: 1

      There's no such thing as U.S. mandated worldwide embargo.

      I can confirm that. I live in Canada (400 miles from NYC by plane) and while 80% of our foreign trade is with the States, lots of people go to vacations in Cuba. A friend of mine works for a company that sells doors to Cuba. The embargo is only inside the USA.

    54. Re:zombie castro said what? by WeAreAllDoomed · · Score: 1
      Yes. Except that there is no Free Market in Cuba. And that, even if there was, there is this little thing called U.S. mandated worldwide embargo on any Cuban export, so they couldn't benefit from it. Don't they teach those things there on history/geography classes?



      don't get wise. if george washington didn't annex china during WWII, you'd all be speaking european right now.

      --
      free software, open standards, open file formats, no software patents.
    55. Re:zombie castro said what? by Helios1182 · · Score: 1

      high FRUCTOSE corn syrup - It isn't cane sugar, but it is sugar. It is a simple sugar. Sucrose is your cane sugar, which is composed of a fructose and glucose molecule bonded together.

      Fructose is one of the sweet sugars, which means you can use less, therefore saving money. It comes from corn, which we (in the USA) have a lot of, so it is cheaper. Thats why HFCS is so common, but have no doubt that it is sugar. The problem is that so many things contain so much of it. We wouldn't be any better off if it were cane sugar, we would be better off if people ate less sugar of any kind.

    56. Re:zombie castro said what? by dajak · · Score: 1

      It does work for some sectors dominated by big business. Finance for instance, and retail. If you openly do business or invest in Cuba, the US subsidiaries get to pay the bill. I don't think I can easily invest my savings in Cuba through a major European bank if I wanted to, and that basically means that Cuba cannot effectively sell state obligations or for instance privatize state-owned companies if it wanted to. Tourism or importing stuff like cigars from Cuba is on the other hand pretty safe if you don't have business in the US, and even if you do it is easy to set up a side company especially for business with Cuba. Setting up a bank is considerably less easy and not worth the trouble.

    57. Re:zombie castro said what? by RipTides9x · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but consider this data on the US from the end of World War II to 1990. In those 55 years, the amount of forest acreage in the United States east of the Mississippi River quadrupled. Yes, quadrupled, and it did this in the most densely populated part of the country during a time of rapid population increase and unprecedented urban sprawl. How?

      One of the other hows is because we spent the years leading up to the Civil War deforesting the entire south-eastern seaboard of the United States. Much of the timber removal along the coastal regions went into shipbuilding since the old countries had pretty much exhausted their supplies of old growth lumber needed for masts. The rest of the southeast was stripped for the raw materials which left the exposed land to be used to build a near agricultural empire at the time. In the years after the Civil War the country moved on into the industrial age and much of the land was left to go back to wood as more people moved away from farming.

      As a result there are few areas of old growth forest left in the Eastern US, much of it being in hard to get to and/or preserved areas,one of the biggest being the Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest. The rest is covered in forests of yellow pine which is a quick growing tree that can go from seed to tree in less than 30 years time, which the pulpwood papermill industries had a hand in creating.
    58. Re:zombie castro said what? by phrostie · · Score: 1

      so it's better for the environment to use petroleum fuels than renewable ethonal?

      WOW, who would have thought.

    59. Re:zombie castro said what? by Buran · · Score: 1

      In all seriousness don't forget that oil has been found off Cuba. If Cuba supported ethanol production that resource would be less valuable. "Fuck the planet, I want MONEY!" Thinking like this is going to be exactly what leaves our descendants with nothing but an unhabitable polluted rock in the future, but no one gives a shit if it means a short-term payoff now.

    60. Re:zombie castro said what? by general+scruff · · Score: 1

      You can buy it now at pretty much any supermarket. But I'm sure if more people did that and saw the consistency of it, people would think twice about having it in their food. All I can think of is the SNL clip when Hans and Frans did Liposuction to Rosanne Bar.

      Eww.

      --
      As a rule, I never trust dark brown ketchup.
    61. Re:zombie castro said what? by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      "Compensation for the Theft? LOL. they were just taking back that which was rightly theirs."

      How were factories and refineries built with 100% private funds rightfully theirs? I guess that means the BMW factory down the road is rightfully mine.

      Well, how about the factory BMW build on your property without giving compensation?
      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    62. Re:zombie castro said what? by tsstahl · · Score: 1

      IF that is not enough an worldwide embargo, what is?

      Name one executive detained, barred, fined, or otherwise inconvenienced by this law.

    63. Re:zombie castro said what? by jafac · · Score: 1

      ...The embargo applies only to American companies, ...

      What American companies? Are there any left? Haven't they all either moved, or outsourced most of their labor to China?

      I mean - WTF is the point of an embargo anymore?

      Castro's an asshole, but there are far worse assholes in the world, with whom we (the US) do plenty of business.

      The "embargo" on Cuba is nothing more than pandering to the Cuban-American vote in Florida, and a few powerful and embittered sugar-cane and tobacco magnates, who lost assets to a thieving dictator 50+ years ago.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    64. Re:zombie castro said what? by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      Fidel's point is that everything ethanol is bad if land that could be used to produce food is used to produce fuel.

      Hm, so would land dedicated to timber also be put to better use if it was put to food?

      Pardon my cynicism, but this smacks of him setting up a call for central planning and control, which has worked so well in Cuba and Eastern Europe.

      Maybe in Cuba there is a need for more food production. However, in the US, we are doing okay. The only Americans starving are Hollywood actresses and people who prefer to use their assets on drugs. We export a lot of food from here, and Americans could stand to cut back on their consumption, according to people in other countries. In fact, since a lot of the central planning (aka USDA subsidies and programs) have been reduced, America's agricultural production has increased.

      You know, that almost sounds resonable, until one remembers that the US corn farmers with their susidised low prices have ruined the Mexican corn farmers and now stop shipping corn there so there are infact people starving in Mexico now because of the "free" market that is working so well in North America.
      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    65. Re:zombie castro said what? by c_woolley · · Score: 1

      You are correct in the fact that the previous poster was incorrect (not that I expect many to read Cuban news). I would like to point out something a little more obvious. Castro is a strong ally to Venezuela, an oil-rich country that has similar views of the United States as Castro does. He has reason to make a statement like this, both politically and even possibly financially. Pretty consistent of his normal actions. I don't fault the guy for thinking about his people's food supply, but perhaps he should offer an alternative to what he is saying is a waste of food. Does he feel that we should continue to use the world's oil supply as we currently are? Again, he is an ally with Venezuela. I don't know. Just something to think about.

    66. Re:zombie castro said what? by Kelbear · · Score: 3, Insightful

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth

      This topic has been around for centuries. One of the most prominent starting points is Thomas Malthus's thought(yours is somewhat similar) and it is also in Wikipedia, but I'll summarize here.

      He assumes population grows geometrically, while food supply is linear. Given this premise, at some point those two lines are going to cross, and at that point, there will be just enough food to keep everyone at the minimum amount needed to survive at that level of population and widespread poverty. Too many extra people, they starve to death until you're back at the equilibrium, too few people, and they keep breeding until it raises to the equilibrium.

      However, technology was not accounted for(rightfully so, since he was not around to witness the bounty of the industrial revolution make food supply explode). So the "Malthusian" situation will not occur so long as a sufficient level of technological growth is sustained to tweak that linear food supply line upwards to keep ahead of the geometric population growth.

      Also, that population growth rate is not fixed.

      Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a wikipedia entry on this topic since I don't recall the name used for this topic. Generally population growth rates and death rates were fairly regular throughout human history, and only in very recent years it changed. Technological spurts like the plow and such caused agricultural booms that allowed for larger population. Eventually the industrial revolution hit Great Britain.

      This results in a huge increase in food supply so that the population growth rate and death rate leaped. Eventually the death rate drops, and then the population growth rate drops, and they straighten out once more. This happened repeatedly as the industrial revolution spread across Europe.

      Africa for example, may not have had this phenomenon occur yet. Their birth and death rates are very very high. However, in modern countries birth and death rates and slowed nearly to a standstill without crashing into Malthusian poverty. Why?

      One of the best explanation is the concept of Human Capital. What is a human worth? If we're living in an agricultural society, children can help me manage the farm and produce more and work less. Children help me live through retirement. However, since I'm poor, I have to produce more children since the children are also dying often. The above population phenomenon hits where technology grants abundance. I'm healthier and I can support a larger family so population spikes. My children are surviving from this abundance so the death rate drops. Since I have children who are surviving, that I have to care for, the population growth drops too.

      Now I've got a stable family size and a stable population growth rate. Since the economy is filling with opportunities thanks to the new technology(there's different kinds of technology in economics, in this case, we're talking about the kind that make more jobs than they remove). This expanded economy can allow me to do more than just farm. If I invest in education I can get more money! So I go get a non-agricultural job. Families won't need so many kids with less human-labor needed on farms so the family size decreases. As opportunities for women to get jobs they have less children too(women in the west are now going to college, maybe grad school, and have children later and later in their lives.)

      Education is expensive, increasing the human capital of myself costs money, doing the same for my wife and kids, it racks up to a large investment. So I actually have a disincentive for having a large family, since I can't put money into all of them without lowering the investment level in each.

      If I have the opportunity, I may not even want to invest in making a child so that they can take care of me in retirement. I can have less children or no children at all and instead put that effort into my own Human Capital and focus o

    67. Re:zombie castro said what? by vivaoporto · · Score: 1

      Name one executive detained, barred, fined, or otherwise inconvenienced by this law.

      With pleasure. You can read the whole embroglio here. The relevant snippet follow:

      But Toronto-based Sherritt International was among the first non-US companies to be named by a special investigative team set up in the American Cuban Office. Pennant-Rea, Sheehy and eight other Sherritt directors - including Daniel Owen, who holds UK and Canadian passports, and the chief executive, who is Swiss - were sent letters giving them 45-days to 'cease to traffic'.(...)

      (...) Pennant-Rea, the brother-in-law of BBC economics editor Peter Jay, a former British ambassador to Washington, suffered another blow. Helms-Burton barred him, his wife Helen, and his two children from entering America.


      Enough? What do I need to show for you people to believe that there is a worldwide embargo? I'm not judging merit or anything, I'm just pointing out a fact.

    68. Re:zombie castro said what? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a certain president... I can't think of his name now, I think it starts with a B...

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    69. Re:zombie castro said what? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      Yep, and we put him on the pedestal. The US has thrown everything in our political bag of tricks at him including a coup, and he's endured it all. All of his rhetoric now rings louder and more true. People rallied behind him just like we did behind the initial Iraq invasion, ignoring all facts and the loss of our rights along the way. It was only a matter of time before the democratically-elected and legitimate leader of Venezuela decided to cash in his "political capital" and buy a ticket to authoritarianism. I say this as someone who *was* a fan of his politics before he started chipping away at legislative and judicial branches.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    70. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not an worldwide embargo. Around here, that's called a choice.

      The US has said "You trade with us or you trade with Cuba, not both" and they're perfectly within thier rights to say that.

      The fact that most companies freely choose not to trade with Cuba under those circumstances is also a choice. The US is choosing not to trade with companeis that trade with Cuba, and companies are choosing not to trade with Cuba as a result.

      Castro could also choose to end this situation immediatly and permanently by choosing to hold an election.

    71. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      George W Bush lost the vote, yet he's in power. So it doesn't actually seem to matter...

    72. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the price of sugar didn't cause the decline of production. sugar beats and the united states embargo caused the price drop AND the decline in production.

    73. Re:zombie castro said what? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Most of the world recognises that the Cuban embargo is the result of confused Miami/Florida politics and a saving face gesture for American foreign diplomacy.


      Its all about the Mafia wanting their casinos in Havana back.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    74. Re:zombie castro said what? by Obfiscator · · Score: 1

      I do the same thing. It means I don't drink any soda, which I'm okay with, but I do my grocery shopping at Super Target. Most of the "Archer Farms" stuff (high-end store brand, not "Market Pantry") doesn't use HFCS (including the breads, which seems unique). You're right, it's a little harder to do, but I'm not starving nor shopping at a co-op. If you have a Super Target near you, I'd suggest you take a look. The food is pretty tasty, too.

      --
      "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." -Indiana Jones
    75. Re:zombie castro said what? by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Good point, but as is, fincance is not a target worth anything regarding cuba, Cuba is interesting for tourists, and some food production but definitely not finance, as you said it is not worth the hazzle.

    76. Re:zombie castro said what? by general+scruff · · Score: 1

      heh.. That reminds me of what happened while I was on my vacation last week... (kinda of OT)

      Me and my wife were in Hileah FL, and looking for a target (We needed a ground cloth for our tent), so my wife typed in "Target" into the GPS. It took us off the highway, and we left then right then left and before we knew it we were in the Hispanic district, which wasn't a big deal, except all the signs were in Spanish. Well, when it said we were arriving at "Target" we didn't see anything. My thought was that there was another small business with the same name.

      Luckily, the GPS got us back to the Highway, and we got down to the Keys without incident, but we never quite trusted the GPS after that. I will say they are still super useful though, but just be wary...

      --
      As a rule, I never trust dark brown ketchup.
    77. Re:zombie castro said what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      English version of the commentary by Castro is here:
      http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2007/marzo/juev29/14re flex.html

    78. Re:zombie castro said what? by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

      The GPS probably thought you meant tarjeta, Spanish for card. So it directed you to a Mexican shop that sold cards of some sort.

    79. Re:zombie castro said what? by x_codingmonkey_x · · Score: 1

      Bush's majority is increasing? That's news to me (and everyone else on the planet). I also wasn't aware that Bush was running for a 3rd term and was going to change the constitution. Very enlightening, I think you should mod parent as the brightest person on the planet for knowing things that no one else does.

    80. Re:zombie castro said what? by gemada · · Score: 1

      read some actual history and find out how the American mafia with their own little US-sponsored dictator treated the Cuban people before the revolution. i am not supporting the current regime, but anything was better than the way Batista and the Americans treated the Cuban people.

    81. Re:zombie castro said what? by vandan · · Score: 1

      Sure these things are happening, but they're certainly not signs of a dictatorship. In fact, they are signs of a breakdown of a dictatorship ... the dictatorship of capitalists. You see, a dictatorship is where you have a ruler or ruling class who dictate , against the will of the population. Take the US, for example. A democracy is where the wishes of the population actually have an effect of what goes on in a country ... for an example of this, look at Venezuela. The people overwhelming support all his moves, from nationalising the oil, to spending more money of health and education, to resisting the US's neo-liberal agenda in Venezuela and in other South American countries.

      If you think Venezuela is a dictatorship, then you are 100% brainwashed.

  2. Hey Fidel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not sweet corn that people can eat that is the issue here.

    BTW, aren't you dead?

  3. Surprisingly... by Conception · · Score: 1

    They are both correct. An odd moment of clarity from DoE and Castro.

    1. Re:Surprisingly... by jlarocco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Funny thing about that. See, starving poor people don't usually have much money. And the only reason this corn is even being grown is because energy companies are willing to pay record high prices for it. If the starving poor people were willing to do that, they wouldn't be starving poor people.

      Yes, it's harsh, but that's the way it works.

    2. Re:Surprisingly... by Hao+Wu · · Score: 0, Troll
      Few people starve only for "lack of food".

      Where many people are starving, it's usually because people like Castro have taken a nation's food supply to feed their army and incite civil wars.

      "For the greater good", they will say...

      --
      I suggest you read Slashdot
    3. Re:Surprisingly... by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      Or the dictator in question has managed to raze his country into oblivion *cough*Mugabe*cough*

    4. Re:Surprisingly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Odd moment of clarity?
      True dat. Castro is pretty known for being stupid and stuff.
      Yeah. ...

    5. Re:Surprisingly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um...
      If there's one thing Cuba is known for more than others (apart from brilliant education), it's feeding its people.

    6. Re:Surprisingly... by grammar+fascist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where are my mod points when I need them?

      There's no food supply problem. It's all a distribution problem. Castro most likely knows this, but that "starving people" card is awfully effective.

      --
      I got my Linux laptop at System76.
    7. Re:Surprisingly... by csplinter · · Score: 1

      Why the hell is this modded troll? This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the article. Does the moderator suggest that we wait until a better fuel comes out then, we decide not to buy it because it happens to be made out of corn, so instead we give away all the corn to the hungry? Why don't we skip all the research in to new fuel technology, get rid of our cars, and give the gas money we saved to the hungry to buy corn!? Don't be retarded this is a matter of simple economics.

    8. Re:Surprisingly... by vandan · · Score: 0, Troll

      Why the hell is this modded troll?

      I've noticed a large increase in the number of posts expressing socialist or even left-leaning opinions being moderated as a 'troll', to the extent that I'm starting to suspect there's an organised effort behind it. Keep in mind the Dubya administration is spending record levels on propaganda, both via the state and privately.
    9. Re:Surprisingly... by DaveDerrick · · Score: 1

      But no suprise that the US makes this announcement in response to Castro's comments, but its not a response - its totally unrelated - they were going to say this anyways (Yeah right). Shamed into saying it ?

    10. Re:Surprisingly... by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      You're half right. Distribution is the problem, but not the way you think. Since it's so easy to distribute cash crops (sugar cane, corn) to developed countries, fewer food crops (beans, fruit, vegetables) that can be consumed locally are grown.

      If everyone in the province is growing sugar or feed corn, where does your table food come from?

  4. corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by WindBourne · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They (like sugar cane) all grow in a 2d space. In addition, a log of energy goes into growing corn and sugar. In addition, these crops are basically batched. You may plant and then lose it all in the end.

    Instead, ethanol and bio-deasil will come from algae or other microbes. The simple fact is that it allows for a continual stream of fuel as well as feeds on our waste. Finally, the amount of fuel that it uses is a fraction of regular crops.

    Have to laugh at what castro is saying. There is plenty of food for the world. The issue is one of distribution. Correct that, and we could cut back on crops.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Chief+Wongoller · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The European Union continues to subsidize thousands of farmers, allowing them to produce huge amounts of surplus food every year that costs EU taxpayers a fortune. There is no political will to curb this waste as (especially in France) the farmers have too much political clout). So, there is no need to consider planting new crops specifically for fuel. The resources already exist, though greater efficiency may come from changing the crops EU farmers currently grow to ones more suitable for biofuels. Growing crops in the EU for biofuel, therefore, could solve two problems contemporaniously: EU waste converted into much needed fuel. Alternativly we could all scrap our cars and take the bus!

    2. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Locklin · · Score: 1

      Oldest excuse in the book: "Its just a problem of distribution."

      I was in the grocery store today, and all the grapes were from South Africa.

      Sounds like distribution is *too* easy.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    3. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Lorkki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The issue is one of distribution. Correct that, and we could cut back on crops.

      Yeah, all we have to do is restructure the global economy so that poorer countries are able to develop, and the problem will most likely solve itself. Why aren't we getting to work already instead of ripping them off?

    4. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Algae essentially grow in 2d too. They only grow in the plane that the sun shines. Once you have an algae soup, only the top few cm get any light. Sunlight only goes a few metres into clear water before its useful properties are reduced.

      Sugar is a good way to go. Sugar is very fast growing which is why ethanol in Brazil is pretty cheap: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2005/06/17/AR2005061701440.html. There flexi-fuel cars can run on gas (which is at least 25% ethanol) or E100 (100% ethanol).

      A massive usage for corn is in fattening cattle. This is a hugely wasteful way to feed people compared to a more direct approach such as eating the corn or soy or whatever, Processing into beef is very wasteful. This would also drive up beef prices which would make McDonalds unhappy with DoE

      There is no reason why there should not be a multi-input strategy. Corn can grow where sugar cannot. Algae can grow where corn and sugar can't. It is silly to really argue for one over the other. Rather make a multi-input ethanol industry.

      --
      Engineering is the art of compromise.
    5. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by krotkruton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Furthermore, we already use too much corn (not the best choice of words, but I'll explain what I mean). Besides the corn we eat in its regular form, corn syrup and other corn derivatives are used in a large portion of our diets in the US. Also, corn is used as the vast majority of feed (estimated at 92% in 2003) for livestock. Corn is a major part of our entire food infrastructure. We are already in serious danger if a corn famine ever arose, but the effects would compound if we base our fuel on corn as well. Diversification is important for any country, especially with an economy as large as the US. Of course, this might never happen, but we all know it's possible (Ireland). By the way, I live in Illinois in a small town of 4000 people surrounded by corn fields. I'm not saying this because I hate corn, but dependence on a single crop is a thin line to walk.

    6. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by mabhatter654 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      exactly, in the US and the EU the govt pays farmers to not grow food to allow their land to recover and pays farmers to enter land management where they grow what makes their land produce best and not necessarily what's selling on the market. Many people don't know large parts of the US have been in drought conditions for 5 years... in my own county the corn only grows at half what it used to due to lack of rain. But we don't go hungry because there's extra grown in spite of what the market may bear.. it's that important that people don't STARVE.

      That said, now that farmers might actually have a CASH crop and end the govt subsidies, people don't want to pay fair prices for food... funny how "free market" raiders don't like when another industry can lock up some profits at their expense. It does seem "wasteful" to use the food crop for fuel, but poverty and hunger are not due to lack of food like Casto and others would like to think... we ship more than enough food to the starving nations to feed them, their leaders sell it or burn it instead of helping the people... the GOVTS simply don't care about other people. We grow lots of crops to not use expressly for food that corn can be used for both food and fuel is a good thing! Like how soy can be used for all sorts of things.

      Frankly, we need to get more "eco-friendly" all life comes from the Sun... even coal and oil were once vast herds of dinosaurs and lush forests before being buried by massive amounts of earth being flipped over... last I checked we're not making anymore dinosaurs for oil anymore. If we can get slightly less power from a plant without waiting the thousands of years to make oil we should go for it.

    7. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by dbIII · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a lot of work going on with ethanol from cellulose. I think that is the answer for consumption in a lot of places instead of some "pork" project to keep a powerful lobby group even happier. I find it bizzare that this group already has enough power that it has Americans getting fat on expensive corn syrup instead of cheaper sugar, but perhaps it's also because I personally don't like the taste. It makes sense for Brazil to make ethanol from sugar cane, but it's a bit more difficult for a colder and drier climate to make it from corn.

    8. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by WhiteWolf666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Much of this restructuring has to happen in the poorer countries, and they are unwilling to restructure.

      Take a look at North Korea, where the government makes the (mis)allocation of resources to military expenditures rather than food supplies. Take a look at Sudan, where the government has no interest in the health of its citizens, or Somalia, where there is no functioning national government.

      By and large, the countries which have opened themselves to Western-style Keynesian socialist markets are developing themselves out of food security issues (China, India, and other developing 3rd world states). The other places, where nationwide starvation remains a chronic issue are either the result of natural catastrophe (Bangladesh), or broken governments (North Korea).

      --
      WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
    9. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By the way, I live in Illinois in a small town of 4000 people surrounded by corn fields. I'm not saying this because I hate corn, but dependence on a single crop is a thin line to walk.


      There's also sugar beets and several other prairie plants that make a lot of sugar. Before the beverage industry fell in loe with corn syrup, sugar was usually either derived from sugar cane or sugar beets. The sugar beet industry was huge in the west right into the 80s. In eastern Colorado, it was a poor town that didn't have a sugar beet mill. Of course, they smelled worse than a feedlot when they were running.

      For the past 15-20 years, people have been building suburbs next to ranch/farm land and feedlots, and then complaining and litigating about the organic environment their move entails. It's just a well the sugar beet industry is declining -- one less revenue stream for the lawyers. It's just a pity that the birth rate of idiots, assholes and lawyers is rising.
    10. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      Hmm, algae farms that span miles don't sound that healthy with malaria being being what it is.
      Malaria

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    11. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by lordmatthias215 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One thing I've heard brought up by universities down here in Texas and Louisiana is a plant called Energy Cane- similar to normal sugar cane, but much more aggressive and much more energy dense. From what I understand the stalks grow over twice the size of for-food cane, and its relatively easy to grow. I say we take a look at utilizing things like that in some parts, at least down in the Houston area (home of Sysco Sugar) where the sugar industry has been hit hard due to artificial sweeteners. Take whatever land that hasn't been converted to suburb yet an get a pilot program going.

    12. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by nuzak · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you've noticed that Sudan doesn't exactly have the same transportation infrastructure, and that despite the grapes, most of the food in that store is still domestically produced?

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    13. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 3, Insightful

      huge amounts of surplus food every year that costs EU taxpayers a fortune. There is no political will to curb this waste as (especially in France) the farmers have too much political clout).

      It's not necessarily waste to have more land than you need today under cultivation. Tomorrow there may very well be a drought or blight that reduces production per acre; keeping that extra land cultivated can be a very useful form of insurance, even if the food rots.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    14. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by CandyMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > Algae essentially grow in 2d too. They only grow in the plane that the sun shines. Once you have an algae soup, only the top few cm get any light.

      There is an engineering solution around that problem. I recommend you check out Solaroof, which is (much more than) a circulation system in which the algae-full water from a tank is pumped and circulated over the roof of a greenhouse. The idea is that the algae don't need permanent sunlight, but can rather be "activated" with short exposures to it, and then sent to the bottom of the pool, where they can continue with their metabolic cycle.

      I have met the guy in a pub, and he made perfect sense. This may not be an industry worth setting up in Sweden, Siberia or New England, but I think it would be more than feasible in very sunny, semi-desertic places like you can find in Australia, Southern Spain, Morocco, Israel, Mexico...

      --
      http://barrapunto.com/ - News for nerds, en español
    15. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      How many skeeters do you know that live in the fucking desert?

    16. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by mwilliamson · · Score: 1

      I must make one further comment on dinosaur power vs. solar. Solar is limited to constraints of immediate capture. With dinosaur power, you can tap the aggregation of thousands of years of worth of solar energy each day to compensate for your losses no matter how inefficient your process is.

      -Michael

    17. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      I tend to agree but there is one hitch: The algae achieve high photosynthetic efficiency right now by using concentrated CO2 so we need such a source without it coming from fossil fuels eventually. But, for now you can recapture about 70% of the CO2 and give it a second use as a biofuel. I give some relative efficiency estimates here: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/02/photosynthesis .html.
      --
      Get Efficient, Get Solar: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

    18. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They (like sugar cane) all grow in a 2d space. [...]
      Instead, ethanol and bio-deasil will come from algae or other microbes. Ha! You think your pathetic single-celled 3-d microbes are the solution? I plan to use four-dimensional time-traveling aliens from the future to produce energy. Since they come from the future, and the future is infinite, there will be an infinite supply of them for some time to come. I plan to utilize them by having them scour ebay 24/7 for government-suppressed greater-than-unity devices.
    19. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by fermion · · Score: 1
      The nice thing about ethanol, as opposed to fossil fuels, is that it can be made from a variety of renewable and at a direct and opportunity costs no greater than fossil fuel. Be the raw product grass, corn, or algae, the benefit is less dependence on imported oil, not to mention $10 per gallon surtax we are paying to stabilize our oil production in the middle east.

      As far as food is concerned, that is a kicker. We all want food when we want, and none of us want to be hungry. Therefore it is to our benefit for large amounts of food to be grown, as we would rather have extra to mulch rather than not enough. Furthermore, subsidies for farmers make some sense as we need food cheap enough so that everyone can afford it, and we do not have riots.

      Ultimately here is the thing with ethanol. If we learn a lesson, and not let profit be the overriding concern, we would make ethanol out of a wide variety of products. If there is extra corn, as there usually is, we would make it out of corn. We would go back to fallow fields, and use whatever is on that field to make ethanol. Furthermore, we would have flexible fuel cars, electric based, with a generator that ran on ethanol or fuel cells.

      Algae could be more efficient than sugarcane, and certainly more efficient than corn. All of these option has the benefit of costing much less than $96 billion. It is hard to kick the dominant player out of the market, but sometimes said player just needs to go.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    20. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by value_added · · Score: 1

      The European Union continues to subsidize thousands of farmers, allowing them to produce huge amounts of surplus food every year that costs EU taxpayers a fortune. There is no political will to curb this waste as (especially in France) the farmers have too much political clout).

      I should hope that farmers have a certain degree of political clout. You think that their land, the animals they raise, the food they grow, or the traditions they maintain have no value to a country or its inhabitants?

      If that's not your thing, come to America. We've long since replaced farms with urban sprawl and strip malls, farmers with large agribusiness concerns, and the locally grown fruits and vegetables we used to buy in our supermarkets have been replaced with the indigenous products from Third World countries. Some traditions, of course, we hold onto and maintain. Like cheese made from edible oil products that comes in individually wrapped slices. Or the row of car dealerships and fast food restaurants that adorn our city streets.

      On the other hand, if you're rich, you'll typically choose something different. Maybe live in Montana where there's cattle ranches, Napa Valley where you live beside miles of vineyards, or some place in Southern California where you're surrounded by citrus or avocado groves. The food you eat will typically be local, or imported from those subsidy-sucking farmers in the EU.

    21. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by homer_ca · · Score: 1

      That's an important point. Before the ethanol boom, most of our corn wasn't used for food either. We already grow more corn than we could possibly eat, even with all our processed food full of corn syrup. You could say the factory farms and resulting cheap meat are a make-work program for our corn farmers. I'm as much a carnivore as the next guy here, but I'd rather have an occasional meal with good quality grass-fed beef than stuff myself with lots of cheap meat in every meal.

    22. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Guppy · · Score: 1

      I've heard some people speculate about how Iowa could become the Saudi Arabia of Ethanol. While Cellulosic Ethanol applied to Corn or non-food crops might someday become efficient enough to match Sugarcane's ~6-8x energy return (vs. something like 1.3 for Corn), Brazil's in the position of needing minimal R&D investment -- stick sugar in a tank and it ferments with minimal processing.

      In other words, Brazil is like Saudi Arabia, and we're more like the Athabasca Oil Sands. While we (the US) have potentially huge capacity, it comes with a requirement for R&D, and then high capital/operating costs.

    23. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by catalina · · Score: 1

      Southern California where you're surrounded by citrus or avocado groves.

      They've mostly been replaced by high-rise condos and subdivisions. But at least some of the subdivision housing has been used to produce high-value crops.

    24. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by fredrated · · Score: 1

      Mosquito larvae need access to the surface since they breath air, an algae covered pond would probably not be a good environment for them.

    25. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by bendodge · · Score: 1

      Which logically leads to the Ultimate Solution:

      Remove ALL govt subsidies, and let the free market fix it. People are generally concerned about the environment these days, and have shown that they will pay a few extra dollars to save fossil fuels. Get the socialist interference out, and things will work themselves out.

      Obviously we do need some govt regulation to keep things ethical, but subsidies are way beyond the necessary regulations. It all stems back to FDR's New Deal, which was probably the biggest expansion of federal intervention and power in US history.

      It would cause some immediate hurt if all farm subsidies were just nuked, but it would tremendously help our economy in the long run.
      Hooray for Milton Friedman!

      --
      The government can't save you.
    26. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all life comes from the Sun

      Well except that which uses thermal vents and such for energy althrough I guess you could say that since that is just residual heat from the solar system's (and sun's) formation it is also from the sun.

    27. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by njm · · Score: 1

      Hmm... but couldn't you just grow the algae in a large, "3D" vat and circulate it so all the algae gets its share of the sun?

    28. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by MtViewGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      One company--GreenFuel Technologies--has already demonstrated how to use the exhaust gases from a coal-fired powerplant to "feed" tanks of oil-laden algae that could grow the algae at a tremendous rate.

      This system offers a number of obvious advantages:

      1. It reduces the pollutant output far below Kyoto Protocol mandates since the algae absorption of the exhaust gases cuts CO2 and NOx emissions way more than 50%.

      2. With a couple of hundred acres of tanks fed by the coal powerplant exhaust, we could produce millions of gallons of diesel/heating oil fuel per year from ONE site.

      3. The "waste" from the processing of the oil-laden algae could be processed into animal feed, plant fertilizer or even ethanol.

    29. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by AshtangiMan · · Score: 1

      I live in the desert, and anywhere you have standing water you have skeeters by the droves. It is a big problem. Perhaps not all deserts would be this way, but desert != no mosquitos.

    30. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      True, but if you want to pull down why the EU was created to one slogan, it would be "Never again war, never again famine" (implied: for the member states). That's it... That's why we have that big ass economic union. Sure, you don't notice much of it these days, but subsidized farming is one of the visible remnants of the original idea.

      Back in the seventies, we had such amazing things like "Butter Mountains". Now imagine how much biodiesel one could have made of that! Heck, it would have been ideal timing because of the petrolium crisis back in the seventies. Perhaps the tech wasn't there yet.

      Just assuming that you're American: don't complain about our subsidies.... Look at home first, okay?

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    31. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by greenechidna · · Score: 1
      According to a recent article in The Economist the future lies in ethanol produced from trees. As far as I recall it said that the ratio of energy required to convert organic material to ethanol and the energy obtainable from the ethanol produced is:

      maize - 1.3

      sugar cane - 8.3

      Wood - 16

    32. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Yes, but then you're faced with the engineering question of why you even have all that water below the active region.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    33. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Edward+Kmett · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that this isn't a free market.

      US corn has a 44.64 cent / bushel average subsidy to start with. Each bushel makes about 2.5 gallons of ethonal which is then subsidized by 51 cents/gallon plus another 10 cents per gallon if you produce less than 60 million gallons.

      The latter subsidies distort market conditions and take away corn from feedstocks hurting ranching and other industries.

      At the same time we impart a 54 cent/gallon excise tax on sugar ethanol from Brazil. The reason is we have the same excise taxes per gallon as for gasoline. The problem is that ethanol produces about a third less energy per gallon, so the tax burden for its use as a fuel is higher. Brazil has economic leverage in that sugar cane is more efficient than corn when used to produce ethanol and they have a more suitable climate for growing it. It costs them about 50 cents/gallon to produce; we subsidize corn by more than it costs Brazil to produce. That said this picture is a little distorted as Brazil subsidizes their sugar crops and ethanol production.

      Its not a matter of people paying fair prices for food, though they aren't if you want to argue from a free market perspective.

      The issue is that corn ethanol can only exist because of very large market distortions and just doesn't supply a viable economic alternative fuel source.

      If you want ethanol, fine, it is a reasonable goal, but leveraging corn isn't the best way to reach that goal. We can't compete with our corn ethanol on the world stage. All we are doing is playing protectionist sleight of hand games with the underlying economics. It lets politicians talk about how they are helping local farmers and talk big about having a vision for the future about energy self-sufficiency, but its all a shell game.

      Now isn't the time to subsidize, it is the time to seriously evaluate if we want to construct an enormous infrastructure for corn ethanol production that doesn't make sound economic sense and that we will be stuck propping up indefinitely.

      --
      Sanity is a sandbox. I prefer the swings.
    34. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      One of the byproducts of algal oil farming is large quantities of high-protein, highly nutritious husk. If the extraction process is less than 100% efficient, it will also contain lots of nice omega fatty acids. This would make a great cattle feed, would be essentially a bonus product (since you really want the oil), and the cows would be a lot healthier both from their point of view, and in terms of the benefits of their flesh to human health. Most meat animals are not really physiologically suited to eating a lot of corn, it effects the pH balance of their intestines allowing the growth of pathogenic organisms ; this is one of the reasons they get pumped full of antibiotics.

      Imagine how much more efficient it would be to have the people eating it though - as long as you could make it taste and feel good in the mouth, you'd save about 90% of the energy which is ordinarily wasted in the meat production process.

    35. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by marcosdumay · · Score: 2, Informative

      "That said this picture is a little distorted as Brazil subsidizes their sugar crops and ethanol production."

      We don't. We used to, but stopped doing that by 97. We just don't have enough money, and much better places to put it.

    36. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by stan_freedom · · Score: 1

      Here's a link to a good breakdown of USDA's farm subsidies.

      Even though my father grew up on a dust bowl farm in Kansas during the depression and benefited from some of FDR's programs, I agree that there's no longer any need for farm subsidies. I also don't think we should use subsidies/tariffs as an excuse to compete with other exporters. If foreign governments want to subsidize their exports, then let US consumers take advantage.

      I don't believe the government should intervene in the free market in attempts to manage the economy, unless obvious monopolies have developed. On the other hand, I believe strongly that the government should intervene in the free market to protect the environment, ensure labor and product safety, and protect property/legal rights of individual citizens from corporations.

    37. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Valar · · Score: 1

      Keynesianism is not socialism, at least in the way most people think of socialism.

      Socialism involves total government ownership, Keynes was a free market economist who thought the market occasionally failed in a correctable manner. In particular, socialism relies upon total production planning-- the targetting of levels of production for n different commodities, using m different inputs. This is quite a challenge, considering how large n is (in the millions) and the fact that an accurate model would boil down to a non-linear system of equations of n x m different variables. Oh, and did I mention that the member functions of the NLSE are impossible to precisely measure in the real world?

      On the other hand, as you pointed out, we do have a (somewhat) functioning Keynesian system. We only have to control a couple of factors (government expenditure and interest rates), which have fairly well understood behavior (ok, interest rates do). I would even argue that controlling the interest rate alone might be enough.

    38. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by kabocox · · Score: 1

      A massive usage for corn is in fattening cattle. This is a hugely wasteful way to feed people compared to a more direct approach such as eating the corn or soy or whatever, Processing into beef is very wasteful. This would also drive up beef prices which would make McDonalds unhappy with DoE

      I'd hope that McDonalds and other meat buyers would complain. Where it'll really hurt is those of us that live off of hamburger helper and other foods that the recipe starts with .5 - 1 lb of beef. Beef is expensive now. It's only going to get more expensive. Yes, the human race could stop eatting cows, pigs, and fish. Would we want to though? Not likely. If you can genetically engineer several species of planets that taste like and have the nutrients of beef, pork, or fish, then you'd have a shot and even then you'd have people that wouldn't touch the stuff for 2-3 generations due to fears of genetically engineering is evil hype.

    39. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by geekoid · · Score: 1

      WHy do you want to put fuel in direct price competition with food?

      DO you want your food price to double every 4 years?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    40. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by radtea · · Score: 1

      There is a lot of work going on with ethanol from cellulose.

      And there has been for thirty years.

      Cellulosic ethanol is the green movement's nuclear fusion: it is the energy source of the future, and always will be.

      It's good to do continuing research on the problem, but very bad to use any presumption that the research will yield positive results when trying to plan our day.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    41. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      It's not necessarily waste to have more land than you need today under cultivation. Tomorrow there may very well be a drought or blight that reduces production per acre; keeping that extra land cultivated can be a very useful form of insurance, even if the food rots.
      Unless your farming techniques leech tons of nutrients from the soil and promote topsoil erosion, making your land unusable for any type of farming within a couple of decades, which is standard Archer Daniels Midland procedure for maximizing the corn output of a given acre of land.

      This company does not care what happens to our country in the next 50 years. All they care about are making sure their quarterly profits meet Wall Street's expectations. 50 years from now when there we start seeing all of middle north america turned into a giant dust bowl from topsoil erosion and overfarming of corn, we'll regret the fact that we let ADM lobbyists buy our government and subsidize their profiteering off of US soil, but all of those executives at ADM will have long since retired to their McMansions and McYachts.
      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    42. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      Hunger and starvation are most certainly not due to the lack of food in the world, but you actually managed to make the US/EU agricultural policies sound reasonable. All the various price support tactics encourage the farmers to rape the land for as much output as possible, since the govt will bail them out in case of overproduction. And don't get me started on the import/export machinations!

    43. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by BamZyth · · Score: 1

      And what about reducing the consumption of fuels in general by developing efficient public transports and taxing fuels a lot more but allowing to deduce a part of it from your income taxes? If you live near public transportations you can deduce less than if there are none available. The maximum deductible would based on a small car consumption so if you own a gas guzzling car, you pay more.

    44. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by k1e0x · · Score: 1

      Buddy.. I got news you you.

      You don't make decisions for other people. You make decisions for yourself. If you want to grow corn and sell it for food that is fine.. or you can sell it for fuel.. or you can burn it. It's yours and its up to you what you do with it. Alternatively if you want to get more "eco-friendly" by all means get so.

      Oh wait.. you can't because government is making the choices for you.. They regulate what you can use for a fuel and when and who can grow when where and how.. So.. referring to your post.. who are you telling.. and uhh.. How does it feel to be told what to do by your rulers? If governments were truly in charge of feeding us (Like in the "totally awesome" USSR.) we would all starve.

      --
      Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
    45. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by wiggles · · Score: 2, Insightful

      if you're rich, you'll typically choose something different.


      The reason we have all of these nasty things is exactly as you said in your last paragraph -- we can't economically afford to have the type of life you put on a pedestal. Agribusiness makes food cheaper for you. Cheese with high amounts of oil is cheaper, more versatile, and doesn't spoil as quickly as cheese made from more traditional ingredients. It allows people to eat cheese who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it. You may be able to afford to shop for all your food at Whole Paycheck, but many people can't. And this isn't because the 'rich get richer and the poor get poorer', it's a simple matter of supply constraints. You can only make so much cheese the traditional way, because it's more labor intensive, the ingredients are more expensive, and the process doesn't scale as well. Combine all these factors and you can see that it's just not economically worthwhile for cheese to be made this way anymore without charging a fortune for it, compared to the factory made agribusiness alternative. It's expensive, not because of the greedy greedy farmers who make it, but because of the high cost of production.

      Say, for the sake of argument, that we were to outlaw the mass production of cheese. All cheese must now be produced by small farmers with milk from free range, antibiotic free cows. Now, cheese will become a premium product along the lines of wine or caviar, because the high cost of production would raise the price to levels unreachable by the average family making $48,000 per year.

      Ok, so let's, again for the sake of argument, apply a massive tax on rich people. Say we tax 100% of income over $500,000 per year, so that the maximum anyone could make would be $500,000 per year. Take that tax money and subsidize the poorer people to raise the average income to $100,000 per year. Not only would you put productivity in the toilet, but the price of premium products like cheese would skyrocket until the same number of people who could afford to purchase them before the tax can afford to purchase them after the tax. The reason for this is simple -- it's not the price of goods that's the problem, it's the amount of effort it takes to produce them, which determines the price of a good.

      The type of lifestyle you say we should all be living is simply not feasible any longer for the vast majority of people. The reason we aren't starving like many people in Africa who live according to your economic utopia is because of the efficiencies that agribusiness provides.
    46. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by dpilot · · Score: 1

      > and much better places to put it.

      When do we start?

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    47. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by jafac · · Score: 1

      Have to laugh at what castro is saying. There is plenty of food for the world. The issue is one of distribution. Correct that, and we could cut back on crops.

      Especially ironic coming from a self-proclaimed "communist".

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    48. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sugar is very fast growing which is why ethanol in Brazil is pretty cheap

      Massive government subsidies and banning of alternatives doesn't hurt, either.

    49. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by Chris+Snook · · Score: 1

      The sun's radiation is distributed evenly in 2 dimensions. Thus, algae effectively grows in a 2D space as well. There's really no way around that.

      Switchgrass has a strong potential to be much more economical than either oil corn, and we have the technology to do it now. All we need is the investment (probably from the government) to cover the initial refinery costs and 3 years of growth until the first crop is ready for harvest, and then we'll have a self-sustaining switchgrass industry. The problem is that farmers can't afford to go 3 years without crop revenue, and nobody will invest in them without the confidence that there's going to be a buyer, which requires a centralized large-scale effort to get that economic system jump-started.

      --
      There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
    50. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by mibalzonya · · Score: 0

      Here is a good article on using pond scum for bio fuel. It allows us to use our arable land for growing food sources. http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/stor y?id=47237

    51. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by dbIII · · Score: 1

      No it's more like fission - available now, more expensive and needs more work to be the best choice. Actually it's far more viable than fission since the capital costs are lower and the price per watt without subsidy is too.

    52. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      and that matters exactly how much compared to all the oil, gas and coal we use? Same with nuclear power.. it just doesn't add up. Eventually we have to make due with simply less.

    53. Re:corn and switch grass are NOT the way to go by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      the policies are reasonable from the point of view that cities like New York with 10 million people and NO farmland are reliant on decisions made in Iowa by a few thousand people for their continued food. During the depression the govt didn't pay attention to where the food was coming from and many farmers went out of business, lost whole years worth of crops and people in the cities starved. So the answer is to make sure those farmers grow as much as they can so if anything goes wrong there's extra to cover the loss... What to do with the EXTRA is a political decision. Well meaning people would love to to send it overseas to feed the starving masses, but other like H1Bs here, those countries don't want to put their own farmers out of business either for the same reasons we subsidize our farmers, or they have evil dictators that would use the food to feed their armies and kill all the citizens. To be blunt, unless you farm about 100 acres by yourself with animal labor with crops and animals, you don't physically support yourself if a crisis happens. You're totally reliant on somebody else to feed you and merely "paying" for the food doesn't count.

  5. Cuba a potential major sugar producer by amightywind · · Score: 0

    Castro is making a self-serving statement because he knows Cuba is a significant producer of sugarcane and potentially of ethanol, just like Brazil. It could be the cash cow he's been seeking since the fall of the USSR. Perhaps he dreams of selling it to the US. But ethanol is such a poor fuel compared to biodiesel I am amazed it gets the attention it does.

    --
    an ill wind that blows no good
    1. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by nuzak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > But ethanol is such a poor fuel compared to biodiesel I am amazed it gets the attention it does.

      Why on earth would a multi-billion dollar corporate welfare payout to ADM surprise or amaze you? You don't think it actually has anything to do with whether ethanol is any good or not, do you?

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    2. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by birge · · Score: 1

      yeah, it's amazing the debate around alternative fuels isn't more levelheaded and scientifically based. i know all the corn-belt politicians and hippies hyping ethanol have advanced degrees in chemistry, so they certainly know better. it's almost like politics and political agendas are getting in the way of this important issue. we should check into this, because if so, al gore will certainly want to hear about it.

    3. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by JohnnyGTO · · Score: 1

      And diesels sound soooooo cool. Thump Thmp Thump Thump :-) nothin like stump pulling power !! they sell B99 here in Arcata and boy it smells good!

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
    4. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by iminplaya · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But ethanol is such a poor fuel compared to biodiesel I am amazed it gets the attention it does.

      There's no technical reason for it. It is pure politics and the media exploiting(mocking) the anger with the petroleum companies. And it's putting more rainforests at risk. I don't what it does to the soil. I'm sure it will make Monsanto rich. As long as we continue using our present day jalopies, biodiesel is the one true fuel for rapid oxidation. And for the best bang for the buck(best yield per acre), algae is the way to go(about half way down the page). Heck you can grow the stuff in(on) the ocean. No need to use up valuable real estate, but in case you want to anyway, "More recent studies using a species of algae with up to 50% oil content have concluded that only 28,000 km or 0.3% of the land area of the US could be utilized to produce enough biodiesel to replace all transportation fuel the country currently utilizes. Furthermore, otherwise unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be most effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste and excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."

      --
      What?
    5. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by Telecommando · · Score: 1

      ADM and the DOE didn't find ethanol economical WAY back in 1997.

      Not even with the 51 cent/gal federal subsidy.

      http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/adm_cs.pdf

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    6. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by homer_ca · · Score: 1

      Gasoline barely cost $1.25 a gallon in 1997. Efficiency and running out of cheap oil was the last thing on our minds.

    7. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by MrAnnoyanceToYou · · Score: 1

      There are a few technical problems with getting the algae to grow properly, unfortunately. Theoretically a good idea, pragmatically a little tough to implement. Sad to say, of course.

    8. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by tylernt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But ethanol is such a poor fuel compared to biodiesel I am amazed it gets the attention it does.

      There's no technical reason for it.
      Ah, but there *is* a technical reason. Crappy American passenger car diesels from the 70's gas crunch were unreliable, slow, noisy, and dirty. Americans have never really lost that image of small diesels, notwithstanding the slick and highly refined modern diesels made by VW and Mercedes today.

      We can only hope that the new ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) now required in the US will usher in a boom of popularity for diesel passenger cars now that emissions are less of an issue. The diesel Jeep Liberty is a step in the right direction -- we might even dream of someday buying an American passenger car with a diesel engine in it... I'm not holding my breath, though.
      --
      DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
    9. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by evilviper · · Score: 1

      But ethanol is such a poor fuel compared to biodiesel I am amazed it gets the attention it does.

      Ethanol isn't as good as biodiesel, but it's still pretty good.

      The important part, though, is that cars run on ethanol right now, not biodiesel. Making gasoline 15% ethanol right now would work in nearly every existing car, and would basically eliminate the need to import oil from the middle east.

      Of course, that's a bit of a simplistic view of the market. In reality, imports will continue, but prices will simply just drop, but they should do so drastically.
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    10. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Nowadays they are called "glitches". Everything we do requires a few changes from the original plans as we go along. That's to be expected and hardly should be considered a show stopper.

      --
      What?
    11. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by fredmosby · · Score: 1

      More recent studies using a species of algae with up to 50% oil content have concluded that only 28,000 km or 0.3% of the land area of the US could be utilized to produce enough biodiesel to replace all transportation fuel the country currently utilizes.

      The problem is that those high oil content varieties of algae are less competitive than the more common types that are more like 10% oil content. The algae would have to be grown in a controlled environment in order to keep low oil content algae from taking over, which would be way too expensive. Just growing the low content algae would be cheeper, but it would still not be economical.

      They would have to genetically engineer high oil content algae that is still competitive with normal algae even though it doesn't grow as quickly because it is using more energy producing oil and less reproducing.

    12. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      And diesels sound soooooo cool. Thump Thmp Thump Thump :-) nothin like stump pulling power !! they sell B99 here in Arcata ...
      --
      Completely agreed. I have a SMART Diesel and I run it with soya oil (or any other vegetable oil that is cheapest at the moment)
      No need for refineries or biodiesel crap or whatever. Most Diesels can use vegetable oil.
      Rudolph Diesel's first engine ran on peanut oil.

      >>...and boy it smells good!
      --
      Like Kentucky Fried Chicken actually.;-)

      http://www.ravenfamily.org/andyg/vegoil.htm

    13. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by supervillainsf · · Score: 1

      Alge blooms are generally bad for everything else near them in the ocean. They suck up the surrounding oxygen and block sunlight, both of which are detremental to near coastal species (crab, striped bass, as well as everyones favorite pinnipeds). Furthermore, swimmers, surfers and divers can no longer use those areas without risking getting sick and obviously it harms the local fishing industry. Besides all that, I assume it would require 28,000 sq km of surface area, which comes out to a square approx. 165 km to a side. That translates to about a third of the Gulf of California. Another way of thinking about it is that 1 x 28,000 km long strip would stretch from the Mexican Border to somewhere just around the Canadian Border.

      In reality you would have to break it up into many small chuncks on both coasts which would make local production easier, but with hurricanes and winter storms mobbing up and down the east coast and the storms coming from the Gulf of Alaska and generally the whole Pacific Ocean arbitrarly pounding the crap out of the West Coast, added together with every frigging ex-hippie with a bmw and an ocean view bitching, it would cost more to produce and do more damage than anyone could ever imagine. I don't think it really seems like such a hot idea.

    14. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      I was hoping we could float them out in the middle of nowhere. If these giant pools were attached to a tug boat with all the processing equipment on board, they could be kept out of the way of bad weather. A strip along prime coastline is the last thing anybody would want.

      Suck up oxygen? I thought they produced oxygen.

      --
      What?
    15. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by Noehre · · Score: 1

      The algae themselves don't cause the decrease in oxygen. Algae are photosynthetic organisms. Oxygen is depleted when the algae die and are subsequently decomposed by various bacteria.

      One would assume that the rate of algal growth would be controlled by limiting the input of some nutrient like phosphorus, thus eliminating the issue of blooms and die-offs.

    16. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >There's no technical reason for it.

      Yes there is a good technical reason for it.

      The infrastructure is currently geared toward producing corn. Corn has many uses. Using it as fuel may not be the most optimum choice, but that's the cost of having flexibility of use.

      Creating a specialized infrastructure to produce a specialized crop for fuel will take a lot of time. If that crop doesn't translate well into foodstuffs....well, that might be a problem if our needs change.

      Before anyone says "sugarbeets", let me say they aren't a very flexible food source....nowhere near as good as corn.

    17. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by tylernt · · Score: 1

      Making gasoline 15% ethanol right now would work in nearly every existing car,
      Maybe new cars. But there are millions of older cars on the road that will have problems with ethanol eating seals and hoses and causing leaks. Will the government pay billions to have them all upgraded?

      That's not to mention the millions of motorcycles, lawn mowers, leaf blowers, chainsaws, snow blowers, pressure washers, and other power equipment that still have carburetors and can't automatically adjust to the different combustion properties of ethanol. They will run too lean, which can be deadly for an aircooled motor.

      Ethanol is fine, thanks, just don't force me to use it in my older cars and power equipment. Same with biodiesel -- choice is good.
      --
      DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
    18. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      The infrastructure is currently geared toward producing corn.

      Well then, it's time to change gears :-) Get 'er outta granny, son, and put it into second.

      --
      What?
    19. Re:Cuba a potential major sugar producer by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Maybe new cars. But there are millions of older cars on the road that will have problems with ethanol eating seals and hoses and causing leaks.

      It's been a very long time now since the government required new cars to accept 30% mixtures of Ethanol, and some companies like GM were doing so even before that. I don't remember exactly, but it's been well over a decade. I imagine the number of cars that will have problems is quite small, and the cheaper gas will more than cover cost of new hoses.

      They will run too lean, which can be deadly for an aircooled motor.

      10+% Ethanol is pretty common in CA, and yet 30 year-old lawnmowers continue to work just fine.
      --
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  6. I'm more amazed by gerf · · Score: 4, Funny

    That three billion people die a year from hunger. HOLY CRAP!

    1. Re:I'm more amazed by vivaoporto · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's all funny and ha ha, but cut either the summary is lying or TFA is. Here is the piece that mentions the 3.5 billion number, FTF editorial (in spanish), and he was talking about hunger and thirsty, a much more serious problem in the near future. People like to distort the opposing part statements, but at least have the facts from the original source and judge from yourselves.

      Acudo en este caso a una agencia oficial de noticias, fundada en 1945 y generalmente bien informada sobre los problemas económicos y sociales del mundo: la TELAM. Textualmente, dijo:

      "Cerca de 2 mil millones de personas habitarán dentro de apenas 18 años en países y regiones donde el agua sea un recuerdo lejano. Dos tercios de la población mundial podrían vivir en lugares donde esa escasez produzca tensiones sociales y económicas de tal magnitud que podrían llevar a los pueblos a guerras por el preciado 'oro azul'.

      "Durante los últimos 100 años, el uso del agua ha aumentado a un ritmo más de dos veces superior a la tasa de crecimiento de la población.

      "Según las estadísticas del Consejo Mundial del Agua (WWC, por sus siglas en inglés), se estima que para el 2015 el número de habitantes afectados por esta grave situación se eleve a 3 500 millones de personas.


      And my (rough) translation:

      I'll resort to an official news agency, founded in 1945 and generally well informed about the economic and social problems in the world: the TELAM. Textually, I say:

      "About 2 billion people will live, in only 18 years, in countries and regions where water will be a distant memory. Two thirds of the world population may live in places where this scarcity will create social and economic unrest in such magnitude that could lead those people to wars on this precious 'blue gold'".

      "From the last 100 years, the use of water has increased in a rate two times superior to the population growth rate.

      "According with the World Water Council (WWC), it is estimated that in the year 2015 the number of people affected by this serious situation will increase to 3 500 billion people

    2. Re:I'm more amazed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and to Republican right wingers thats not nearly enough...

    3. Re:I'm more amazed by edwardpickman · · Score: 1

      The really amazing thing is more people apparently are dying each year than are born. Do all the numbers and apparently humans will be extinct in three years. You'd think a story this big would at least make the tabloids?

    4. Re:I'm more amazed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we only wish.

    5. Re:I'm more amazed by corbettw · · Score: 1

      3 500 billion people

      3,500 billion people??? Three and a half trillion??? Wtf, dude, that's like the number of people Paul Mau'dib killed during his jihad! I had no idea we could approach those numbers already!

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    6. Re:I'm more amazed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is why we have the secret government cloning projects. And why we have the UFOs visiting us to help us with the cloning. With clones, they prop up the world population and put beings into place that they control. Kind of like Bush.

      </humor>
    7. Re:I'm more amazed by AresTheImpaler · · Score: 1

      you got it wrong.. habitantes afectados por esta grave situación se eleve a 3 500 millones de personas.

      that is 3 500 million not 3 500 billion

    8. Re:I'm more amazed by vivaoporto · · Score: 1

      Both of you responding me are right, I fucked up the translation, it is 3.500 million people.

    9. Re:I'm more amazed by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1

      "About 2 billion people will live, in only 18 years, in countries and regions where water will be a distant memory. Two thirds of the world population may live in places where this scarcity will create social and economic unrest in such magnitude that could lead those people to wars on this precious 'blue gold'".

      "From the last 100 years, the use of water has increased in a rate two times superior to the population growth rate.

      "According with the World Water Council (WWC), it is estimated that in the year 2015 the number of people affected by this serious situation will increase to 3 500 billion people I'm probably going to get flamed for saying this but Castro is right and he isn't the only one who has come up with predictions like this although one can argue endlessly about what the scale of this problem will be. To be fair, people on the right wing of politics world wide, even some in the USA, also admit that this will be a problem. One factor that aggravates these water problems is that in many developing countries (Not all of them by any means) water consumption per capita tends to be rather high and this is often not due direct personal consumption by people but rather 'hidden' consumption due to various factors. Most of this has to do with dilapidated infrastructures that are not renewed or improperly maintained, government regulations that are not enforced, lack of inspection of industry and last but not least... corruption. I have heard (UN) figures of wastage in industrial processes being up to 30 times greater in some third world countries than it is in comparable industries in developed countries and other third world countries who have effective government policies on infrastructure renewal and management. Sooner or later we will see a war break out over water rights. The Israelis for example have been extremely aggressive when it comes to securing their access to water resources and are not likely to be very happy when they lose some of them to a Palestinian state since a lot of the water Israel uses, and which Israelis have greater access to, comes from areas occupied in the 1967 war and so would revert to Palestinian control. Other flash-points concern the damming of the Euphrates and the Nile. Egypt for example got pretty worked up a few years ago when a country up stream (Sudan IIRC) started investigating the possibility of damming the Nile.
      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    10. Re:I'm more amazed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3 500 milliones = 3 500 million

    11. Re:I'm more amazed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "People like to distort the opposing part statements, but at least have the facts from the original source and judge from yourselves."

      Then you lie by a factor of 100. (In the Bush era, mistakes are reclassified as lies in every case)

      BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.

      BWAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

      Dumbass.

    12. Re:I'm more amazed by dominious · · Score: 1

      i don't get why this is modded Funny?

    13. Re:I'm more amazed by gerf · · Score: 1

      I said "crap."

  7. I would like to know by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How come aren't there any diesel hybrids available? They should provide even more mpg than a prius.

    While I'm thinking about it, why aren't the car engines run like the train engines, with the diesel motor running at a more or less constant rate refueling the batteries that run the electric motors that actually turn the wheels - the diesel engine could be much smaller than normal because it won't have to peak to provide power - just a nice steady constant - wouldn't even have to be a normal 4 stroke engine - it could be a stirling engine that is highly efficient but has problems speeding up - though Ford managed to get it's 0-60 speed down to 17 seconds while experimenting with alternate engines during the 70s oil crisis - making it's marriage to this application ideal.

    Any thoughts on this? I admit I don't have much knowledge in this area and probably missed something very basic that is wrong with the idea.

    1. Re:I would like to know by njfuzzy · · Score: 1

      You just described the kind of hybrid that the auto makers are selling. The engine runs at an optimal rate most of the time, even when stopped, to charge batteries that drive the engine. I believe the engine can also engage more directly when more power is needed.

      --
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    2. Re:I would like to know by PayPaI · · Score: 1
      Right here

      The Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in hybrid concept car created by General Motors. However, the company has avoided the use of the term "hybrid," preferring to call it an electric vehicle with a "range extender" due to its design.[2] The vehicle is designed to run purely on electricity from on-board batteries for short trips up to 40 miles (64 km) in the city--a large enough distance to cover the daily commutes of most Americans. With use of a small internal combustion engine hooked to a generator to resupply the batteries, ...
    3. Re:I would like to know by josecanuc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You just described the kind of hybrid that the auto makers are selling.

      I believe the grandparent poster meant direct, electric-only wheel power, not the "dual-forces on one driveshaft" approach current hybrids use.

      Diesel-electric locomotives have no direct mechanical linkage from the hydrocarbon-fueled engine to the wheels on the track. This is exactly the kind of car I am waiting for. I'm a EE, so I like the idea of electricity as the main transport of energy in a car. And the hydrocarbon engine plus generator could be replaced in the future by better technology. So IF someone made an inexpensive, reliable fuel cell, it could take the place of the engine.

    4. Re:I would like to know by trickonion · · Score: 1

      It's called a Series HEV.

      Parallel HEV:
      Both the Electric Motor & ICE operate torque on the same drive shaft

      Series HEV:
      Only the Electric motor operates torque on the drive shaft, the ICE is designed to recharge batteries for the motor.

      A series HEV is DESIGNED to be plugged in, but the ICE can be used to extend the range, because of its general small size, and hopefully static (at least more than what we have now) output.

      http://web.missouri.edu/~suppesg/Technology.htm#_T oc90965829

      --
      I got you an Andes mint, but it melted in my pocket
    5. Re:I would like to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      That's because the EPA hates diesel engines, even though they are cleaner than gasoline engines. Look at what has happened to the light-duty pickup truck diesel, and the OTR diesel engine, beginning with the 2007 model year. Especially pickups. The EPA have managed to get the fuel milage of the diesel down as low as the gas pickups. Effectively removing the benefit of the diesel engine. This is because they wanted to adopt their own screwy emissions standards, instead of going with what the EU and the rest of the world is using. That keeps the oil companies happy, becuase the end result is that we have to burn more fuel to do the same work, but it is "cleaner". They don't understand that having to burn all that additional fuel is probably creating more pollution than if they had just left well enough alone.

    6. Re:I would like to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      why aren't the car engines run like the train engines

      Trains run at more or less constant speed. Cars stop and go a lot. Batteries have a hard time handling that. They overheat and operate inefficiently.

      That said, it's still a good idea. Chevy thinks so too: check out the Volt. What the world needs is an efficient long lasting battery/fuel-cell that can cope with lots of rapid charge/discharge cycles.

    7. Re:I would like to know by russotto · · Score: 2, Informative

      Diesel-electric serial hybrids scale UP very well, but so far they don't scale DOWN to automobile size all that well. To make a serial hybrid, you need an engine big enough to produce enough power to run the car, and an electric motor big enough to produce enough power to run the car.

    8. Re:I would like to know by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      UPS has deisel hybrids in test (in Chicago I think).

      They are hydrolic/deisel hybrids, so still different.

      --
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    9. Re:I would like to know by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because the diesel/electric motors in trains aren't done for efficiency reasons, they're done because of space constraints.

      First, trains don't have batteries. It's just:
      engine->genset->electric motor.

      Diesel engines (especially large ones) work within a very narrow power band. For on highway trucks it's around 1000 - 2000 RPM. This is great when pulling a heavy load, but it means that you're gearing has to be set up accordingly. This is why 18-wheelers have 13 speed gear boxes.

      With the amount of torque that trains need to get up to speed the gear box would need to be as long, if not longer, than the train itself. You'd need a 10000:1 (made up number) gear ratio to get the train moving, but that ratio would only be good for 1000-2000 RPM, so you'd have to shift to 9999:1, etc.

      The genset -> electric motor works great because the electric motor has a near infinite 'gear ratio' and provides peak torque from 0 RPM.

      However there are losses, you'll never get better than a drive where the engine is connected directly to the wheels, this is why some automatic transmissions allow you to lock up the torque converter.

      Diesel hybrids are coming, but the gains over a traditional diesel engine aren't as great as over a gasoline engine.

    10. Re:I would like to know by maxume · · Score: 1

      Weight. Small engine->More batteries to ensure performance; larger engine->bigger electric motor to ensure performance. Diesels are a bit heavier, so they lose a bit there, and once you go to having an always on charging system with no direct to the wheels power train, you have to add another electric motor into the system.

      It would probably work out that such a hybrid got somewhat better mileage, but the added cost wouldn't be worth it.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    11. Re:I would like to know by bobscealy · · Score: 1

      While a motor can be made to be much more efficient at constant load and speed (eg by camshaft grind) the efficiency of going from rotational energy to electricity and back to rotational energy is just too low. Trains only do it because of the number of diffs and mechanical complexity that would be required to get the energy of the motor to so many wheels.

    12. Re:I would like to know by PPH · · Score: 1
      To make a serial hybrid, you'll need an electric motor and battery system capable of producing the peak power required for acceleration. This isn't very difficult to do. Witness the acceleration rates claimed for the Tesla electric sports car. The IC engine needs to be large enough to produce average power. A standard sized sedan requires on the order of 25 horsepower to cruise at 60 MPH. So, a very small petrol engine could keep up with most driving conditions.


      What I'd like to see is a series hybrid with a multifuel combustion engine. Whatever burns, is available and cheap will work. Needless to say, the big oil companies will hate this. It'll give consumers too many choices.

      --
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    13. Re:I would like to know by Detritus · · Score: 1
      That's because the EPA hates diesel engines, even though they are cleaner than gasoline engines.

      That depends on your definition of "clean". Diesel particulates are very nasty. Ignoring them doesn't make them disappear.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    14. Re:I would like to know by WhiteWolf666 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've read about a Mini Cooper design that used a hybrid motor. It was an excellent design, with a gasoline generator powering 4 electrical motors which were located in each wheel hub.

      Here's the link: http://www.leftlanenews.com/hybrid-mini-offers-640 -hp-0-60-in-45-seconds.html

      640 hp, 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, 160 hp per wheel-motor, and a 3 prong plug-in-the-wall adapter for charging the batteries up.

      Cool, huh?

      --
      WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
    15. Re:I would like to know by vanyel · · Score: 1

      While I'm thinking about it, why aren't the car engines run like the train engines, with the diesel motor running at a more or less constant rate refueling the batteries that run the electric motors that actually turn the wheels

      I'm no expert, but I do drive an electric and have been following them for some time; my understanding is:

      In cars, the loss of efficiency from a two-stage power system makes the design pointless from that perspective, and few cars have enough room for both electric motors big enough to provide the necessary power and an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) big enough to feed it. If you downsized the ICE to an average power size, then you have to have electrical storage to provide the extra when you need it, for as long as you'll need the extra oomph, which comes to the same battery tradeoff we have now with electrics: cost or size/weight, as well as needing even more space.

      In trains, the extra size/weight is an advantage (gives them more traction for pulling with), and such a setup solves the startup problem (diesel engines can't run at 0 rpm and a transmission that could handle that kind of power would be prohibitive and add maintenance costs), making the loss of efficiency worth it.

      I also have a hybrid Escape, and well, to be honest, I think the biggest factor in my better gas mileage is the graph that shows what my mileage is over time as I travel at different speeds. Slowing down 5mph made a huge difference ;-) (about 10-15%). The "official" reason is that they recover braking energy, but that's such a small factor that it's virtually useless. The batteries/electric motor do allow a smaller ICE, which uses less fuel in normal modes of operation than a larger engine would, and the electric provides the extra power when you need it, which is the sort of operation you are suggesting. The difference is that when the ICE is running, it's more or less directly providing power to the wheels, so you don't have the loss of efficiency from converting the energy to electricity first.

      It also has a sort of "constant velocity transmission" such that you never lug the engine. I think this is the source of most of its real efficiency advantages, as it's always running at the optimum rpm for the power it's producing. It also should make it last longer: it has a 10,000 mile oil change spec, and in looking at the oil at 10,000 miles, it's cleaner than regular cars' oil at 4,000...a reflection of not stressing the engine the way you do when you have to shift (rather than making bigger explosions, you immediately make a lot more of them, i.e. it revs up at the drop of a hat, keeping the internal pressures, and thus stresses, lower).

      I suspect this type of transmission might be viable in locomotives too, actually, and might be what they were talking about somewhere where I heard they were talking about a "hybrid locomotive", as it probably would improve their efficiency. I don't remember where that was though.

      That is a disadvantage for it as an SUV, however: without a real transmission, you don't get the torque multiplication effect of gearing down, and the thing is useless in snow country or any place where you actually need a lot of starting torque (i.e. when you're stuck). But over 40,000 miles, I average 26mpg, vs the rated 19 for the standard V6. On a warm, dry day on flat ground, I'll get over 30.

    16. Re:I would like to know by John+Courtland · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've posted this before, but for a very long time I've wanted to take an inline 6-cyl diesel, turbo it, and jam in into a regular RWD vehicle like a Supra. Then I'd replace the transmission with a large alternator, and have motors all the wheels, or if I can't make the fronts work, just the rears. I'd have to write some custom software to keep the engine running at an efficient speed for the alternator and electrical load, instead of trying to meet perceived fuel flow for mass air, throttle position and exhaust richness. Alternators can achieve 94% efficiency, with some hitting 98% (but that's in a lab, I'm sure it's not that good in reality), and turbo diesels are the most efficient HC engines that I'm aware of at that scale. I wonder if anyone has ever tried this.

      --
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    17. Re:I would like to know by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      We haven't seen a diesel hybrid because of cost, mainly.

      A hybrid, right now, barely makes economic sense in even optimal circumstances for it, IE lots of inner-city driving. A diesel is unfamiliar technology to most people in the USA, and while a diesel engine would increase the mpg of a hybrid, the gain from combining the two technologies would be marginal. The additional cost of a diesel engine would be a killer for the vehicle. The emissions requirements would be a killer as well, gasoline engines are currently cleaner in the tests than diesel.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    18. Re:I would like to know by Firethorn · · Score: 2, Informative

      With the amount of torque that trains need to get up to speed the gear box would need to be as long, if not longer, than the train itself. You'd need a 10000:1 (made up number) gear ratio to get the train moving, but that ratio would only be good for 1000-2000 RPM, so you'd have to shift to 9999:1, etc.

      More to the point; the transmission required would be complex, and the torques involved would kill even an incredibly heavy one very quickly.

      As you note; even a gear transmission such as what's in a manual transmission costs power.

      Electric generators/motors scale well; at the size involved for a train, I can see 98-99% efficiency. So I'd imagine that something around 96% of the power gets to the train's wheels; actually better than most transmissions.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    19. Re:I would like to know by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      How about a nuclear battery to power the motors? Sure... we need some RD done to make it safe and non-proliferationable, but I think it can be done.

    20. Re:I would like to know by BlackSabbath · · Score: 1

      OMG a logical post on /.

      Please mod parent up now!

    21. Re:I would like to know by 517714 · · Score: 1

      Electric motors have gobs of torque at very low speed, but they don't have much left at higher rpm. This makes them a great fit with a gasoline engine, especially a turbocharged one which produce maxmum torque at higher rpms - the motor gets the car off the line quickly and the engine takes over at some point. Diesel engines have lots of low speed torque, and it tapers off at higher speed, so the electric motor doesn't bring anything to the party.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    22. Re:I would like to know by hedora · · Score: 1

      Using a "serial hybrid", or "plug-in hybrid", which is essentially just a generator, a battery and an electric motor, has been practical for years. In fact, high school shop classes occasionally build them, since the design is so simple.

      You lose a lot of energy from going to rotation to electricity, and then back. However, these vehicles save a lot of energy by doing without a transmission, and running the generator at constant speed, so they may get better mileage than today's hybrids.

      Also, they're a breeze to repair, especially if you don't use a generator. After all, the electric motor has one moving part, and no coolant or motor oil. The drive train adds a differential, and some axles, but that's about it. More advanced designs have one motor per wheel. That gets rid of the axles and differentials, but requires more complicated electronics. Finally, if the generator is a modular component then you can pull it (or replace it with batteries) for short trips, and (more importantly) you don't have to throw out the rest of the car if you switch fuels.

      To tune the car for longer trips, pull out most of the batteries, and run primarily off the generator. That way, you save weight on the batteries. The weight of the electric motor and (smaller) generator engine is going to be significantly less than the combined weight of all those components you ripped out, like the radiator, transmission, engine, axles, etc. If you pull enough batteries, the overall weight of the car will be less than when you started. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether or not doing that leaves you with a drivable car...

    23. Re:I would like to know by brianerst · · Score: 1
      Actually, Chevrolet has shown (and has committed to build) just such a vehicle, the Chevy Volt.

      It's the first plug-in hybrid car that I actually went "wow, that's exactly how it should be done". The basic idea is that for most commutes (60-80 miles), it simply runs off battery power. But it also has a backup generator (either a small, high-efficiency IC motor fueled with gas/ethanol/methanol/biobutanol or a small diesel motor) that kicks in when the battery runs low. The generator can be geared to run only at peak efficiency, as it is not directly driving the wheels and does need to trade torque for horsepower.

      According to GM, even though this is a "concept" car, it is slated for production. The big issue right now is the batteries - they need batteries that can cycle 2000-3000 times without blowing up, losing capacity, or have poor low-temperature performance. "About three to five years" is the estimate - which sounds suspiciously weaselly to be sure, but, OTOH, that's about how far in advance the big car companies plan their new models out, and GM keeps talking the car up - their head of product development, Bob Lutz, said just a few weeks back that the plan is for production to start in 2010.

    24. Re:I would like to know by evilviper · · Score: 1

      How come aren't there any diesel hybrids available?

      Because diesels don't have as many drawbacks as gasoline engines, so there's less potential gain to be had.

      Diesels are more efficient at low RPMs (accelerating), use less fuel when just idling, and also require more energy to start, so shutting off the engine for short periods still less of a benefit.

      why aren't the car engines run like the train engines, with the diesel motor running at a more or less constant rate refueling the batteries that run the electric motors that actually turn the wheels

      Well, then you need a more powerful electric motor (in hybrid cars, they only operate up to 45MPH), a more powerful alternator that can constantly supply much higher voltages, a much bigger battery to meet peak power demands, etc. At higher speeds, constant RPMs, directly driving the wheels is more energy efficient.

      I would like to see such serial hybrids as a stop-gap measure or a range extender for fully-electric vehicles, but getting all your energy by converting mechanical to electrical, back to mechanical isn't terribly efficient.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    25. Re:I would like to know by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      While I'm thinking about it, why aren't the car engines run like the train engines, with the diesel motor running at a more or less constant rate refueling the batteries that run the electric motors that actually turn the wheels

      Because batteries are expensive and heavy. But, don't worry, GM is working on it. (And with a $100,000 electric car on the market, it's unlikely they'll pull it due to a feasibility study.)

      Oh, and many states (NY included) ban residential diesel. I couldn't get a diesel if I wanted to.

    26. Re:I would like to know by afidel · · Score: 1

      640HP and all they managed was 4.5 0-60 in something the size of a mini???
      A 1987 Buick Regal GNX does it in 4.7 with only 245HP!
      Either they had shit for tires/driver or something is really wrong, especially with the near infinite torque of an electric motor.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    27. Re:I would like to know by mac84 · · Score: 1

      Battery technology has been the stumbling block for electrics/hybrids for as long as they've been talking about them. And a viable battery has always been a few years out on the horizon. GM has sung this tune before, I'll believe them when they ship the car.

    28. Re:I would like to know by sane? · · Score: 1

      Putting the power down. Fine you have four wheel drive and can control the massive torque individually, but in something the size and weight of a mini, with a mini's little tyres, there is a limit to how much of that power you can put on the road.

      Still I'd say something which is a hybrid, but can accelerate in the same class as a ferrari is not something to be sniffed at.

    29. Re:I would like to know by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      What you're talking about is a great idea, and has been done (experimentally) with disc or pancake motors that serve as the wheels themselves.
      One advantage that the dual-engine system has, where there's a single central electric motor and a gas engine, both attached to the wheels by conventional driveshafts, is that by using the two propulsion systems working against each other (so to speak) driving inputs to a planetary gearset or differential, you get, without trying, a continuously variable transmission (run engine at one speed, run motor at variable speed to control vehicle speed) and an easy system to deal with variable operating requirements. Need to accellerate? Run engine and motor. Need to slow down? Run motor backwards to soak up power and recharge batteries. Engine running above ideal RPM? Soak up extra power into batteries through motor. Engine running below ideal RPM? Give it help with the motor. It's really nice to have two variables for one equation: it allows you a continuum of solutions, for which you can always have the engine running at its (horsepower/torque/efficiency) peak performance.

      With per-wheel electric motors, A: you have four motors. B: you have to run heavy wires to each. C: you have to have a generator capable of supplying all four motors (which is one big-ass generator) hooked to your power-producing engine. You can still derive something that looks like a continuously variable transmission, but it involves switching massive, massive amperages, which is hard, or frightening voltages, which is easier but more potentially dangerous. That's not to say there aren't some amazingly good things about four-wheel motors: automatic antilock braking and traction control (and active steering, by careful over/underdriving of the individual motors) are easy. What we need is lighter electric motors (which is going well: magnets are getting stronger per unit volume or unit weight at an amazing rate) and cabling with very low resistance, ideally superconductors, to haul current to the wheel motors.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    30. Re:I would like to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main reason seems to be cost. Diesel engines cost more than regular gas engines and adding that cost to a hybrid car might make it prohibitively expensive at a time when even the hybrids we have are hard sells compared to a regular car. Another factor might be the difficulty of making a low emission diesel engine to pass EPA tests running on the dirty US diesel fuel. Diesel electric hybrids are in the works though and may be available in a few years.

      Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_electric_hy brid_vehicle

    31. Re:I would like to know by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, no. Some hybrids work that way, but most just run the gas engine when needed to recharge the batteries or provide extra power as needed. A big problem with such hybrids is that people aren't used to how quiet they are. People often step in front of them because they assume a car they can't hear isn't moving.

    32. Re:I would like to know by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the same. I think it's a combination of amont of traction in the tyres and the weight/horsepower ratio. Remember, those batteries and those electrical engines add weight!

      --

      Stop the brainwash

    33. Re:I would like to know by nbritton · · Score: 1

      Not only that but you could swap out the power plant, whatever it may be, because:

      a) it's not connected to a transmission or drive train.
      b) it would be smaller and lighter then a typical car engine.

      It shouldn't take a mechanic more then a couple of hours to swap it out with a more efficient unit, assuming the rest of the car remains mechanically sound their is no reason you couldn't drive it forever.

    34. Re:I would like to know by Eivind · · Score: 1
      You're rigth that gears for a train would be prohibitive, but your math is off.

      If you've exhausted 1st gear (at 1:10000) with a diesel that operates in 1000-2000rpm, you don't need to change to have a second gear that is 1:9999, your diesel can handle a factor of 2 by itself.

      So, the actual gearing could be 1st 1:10000 2nd 1:5000 3rd 1:2500 4th 1:1250 and so on. If first gear gets you up to 1mph, you'd need a 8-gear gearbox for a topspeed of 128mph.

      With the forces involved, it'd be a monster. but it *wouldn't* need to have thousands of gears.

    35. Re:I would like to know by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Which is why many (most?) diesel cars today are fitted with diesel particulate filters. Sulfur interferes with the process, so your moves towards lower-sulfur diesel helps you towards cleaner exhausts, as well.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    36. Re:I would like to know by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      People often step in front of them because they assume a car they can't hear isn't moving.

      That's a matter of education. If more of these would be on the road, pedestrians would start to learn. Besides, pedestrians should stay on the sidewalk and only cross the street as pedestrian crossings... where they have the right of way, always. At least in my country.

      Oh, and where is the "look left, look right, look left" rule that you should have learnt? Guess, what? You would recognised that a car is closer at the second "look left". Don't need a second "look right" because usually, you can't be run over by a car on the other side of the street. (In the UK, Japan, etc... inverse rule of course...)

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    37. Re:I would like to know by daveinthesky · · Score: 1


      Check this out, I think you'd like this:
      http://www.flytheroad.com/

    38. Re:I would like to know by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

      Diesel-electric locomotives have no direct mechanical linkage from the hydrocarbon-fueled engine to the wheels on the track. This is exactly the kind of car I am waiting for. I'm a EE, so I like the idea of electricity as the main transport of energy in a car. And the hydrocarbon engine plus generator could be replaced in the future by better technology. So IF someone made an inexpensive, reliable fuel cell, it could take the place of the engine.


      Is 2010 close enough?
      --
      Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    39. Re:I would like to know by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Absolutely beautiful post. One of the most informative pieces of txt to come out of Slashdot, as far as I know.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    40. Re:I would like to know by chepprey · · Score: 1

      This is exactly the kind of car I am waiting for Behold the Chevy Volt:
      http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/07/detroit-au to-show-its-here-gms-plug-in-hybrid-is-the-chevy-v //
      In spite of the presence of an internal combustion engine, GM does not call this vehicle a hybrid. In fact, they consider it an EV with range extending capability. The engine is a turbocharged, 1.0L three cylinder engine with 71 hp that has no mechanical connection to the wheels. The ICE runs at about 1800 rpm and drives a 53 kW generator that charges the lithium ion battery pack. The engine starts and stops automatically as needed to charge the battery.

    41. Re:I would like to know by Jtheletter · · Score: 1

      I love that vehicle, a fantastic concept that I really hope catches on in cities. I expect that many asian countries will adopt them far before the US since they deal with a lot of overcrowding and already have more efficiently sized vehicles and booming bicycling populations. I fear, however, that one of the major hurdles of adoption of these vehicles in the US is the massive number of SUVs and trucks here. While the VentureOne may be relatively safe in a solo accident due to their safety design, when a vehicle weighing nearly 5 times as much plows into/over one there probably isn't going to be much left of the occupants. I love that alternative low-occupancy vehicles are starting to become available, but at least in the US our road culture of "bigger is better" has to change before there will be mass adoption. Thanks for the link!

      --
      -- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
    42. Re:I would like to know by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Since this is slashdot and everyone wants reasonable numbers, here we go.

      First off. Gear ratios are normally specified as 2.3, 2.4. These are meaning 2.3:1. 2.3 revolutions of the engine per revolution of the tire. 1:10000 is backwards.

      Find: Gear ratios required to move 200 car train to 100 mph.

      Assumptions:
      Gear ratio specified is final engine:wheels gear ratio. I'm not going to deal with separate gear rations, final drives and rear end ratios.
      Train wheels are 18" in diameter.
      Trains are pulling the same freight that goes over the road in those big boxes that move in between.
      Gear ratios from a truck 'scale' well to large size. Meaning if 1 semi needs X:1 ratio to move 1 car. Y*X:1 ratio is needed to move Y cars. This is just to get the same amount of torque multiplication.
      50% overlap in powerbands. On manual transmissions redline in 1st gear doesn't match up to idle in 2nd. There is a bit of overlap, allowing you to drive for speed, pulling, economy, etc.
      Our manual transmission on highway truck for pulling 1 'car' will be a Cat C13. With 1550 ft-lbs. Our manual transmission locomotive will be running a Caterpillar C3516C
      Since I can't find a torque curve for the 3516. We will use HP=Torque (ft-lb)*RPM/5252.
      Diesel torque curves are flat for their operating range, 1000-1800 RPM.
      Eaton 13 speed manual transmission, first gear 19.7:1. Eaton rear end ration of 2:1.
      Calculations:
      HP ~= 500 @ 1000 RPM. Therefore torque is around 2626 ft-lbs for the C3517.

      Torque required to get 1 car moving is 19.7*2*1550 ft-lbs=61070 ft-lbs
      Torque required to get 200 cars moving is 200*61070 ft-lbs=1.2E7 ft-lbs
      If the engine puts on 2626 ft-lbs, the first gear ratio will need to be: 200*61070/2626= 4651:1.


      18" wheels * Pi = 56.5 in / rotation.
      Speed in First gear at 1400 RPM = Speed in Second Gear at 1000 RPM.
      etc
      This will allow the 50% overlap for operating in torque bands.


      So you're in 1st gear. You're turning 1000 RPM (you finally got your massive clutch pack to sync up). You are going a blistering:
      56.5 in / rotation * 1000 rotations / minute * 1/4651.1 * 1 foot / (12 inches) * 1 mile / (5280 feet) * (60 minutes) / (1 hour)=0.012 MPH


      By time you're upto 1400 RPM you're now cranking out 0.016 MPH.


      So you need to find your 2nd gear ratio
      56.5 in / rotation * 1000 rotations / minute * 1/X* 1 foot / (12 inches) * 1 mile / (5280 feet) * (60 minutes) / (1 hour)=0.016 MPH.
      Solve for X.
      Second gear ratio is 3320:1.
      Etc. I set up a spreadsheet to calculate all the gears (With much help from my TI-89 to get numbers). I published it through google docs here: "Manual Transmission Locomotive".

      So you were correct, my hyberbole numbers were completely off. However I think it illustrated the point. A gear ratio of 4600:1 means one gear is going to have 4600 teeth for every tooth another gear has. In addition you're going to need 28 gears to cruise at 1000 RPM and 100 MPH. Not to mention the size of shafts and gear sizes needed to transmit 1.2E7 ft-lbs. On-highway trucks already have multiple clutch packs to get that amount of torque in a small overall diameter. (If you're patient, I could find my machine design books and I could calculate the number of clutch packs given an overall radius 1 ft/clutch. Heck I could run the numbers required to get the gear sizes to transmit the torques)

      Plus you bring up tons of feasability issues. Braking would be quite difficult. Most locomotives use EMF braking. They turn all their electric motors into generators and dump all that energy to a grid. I suppose you could install a compression brake and make the engineer downshift thr

    43. Re:I would like to know by fm6 · · Score: 1

      True. I only threw that out as an example of how quiet hybrids are. Although there's also an issue with the vision impaired, who can no longer use their ears to tell when it's safe to cross the street.

    44. Re:I would like to know by skinfaxi · · Score: 1
      > People often step in front of them because they assume a car they can't hear isn't moving.

      >> That's a matter of education.

      Not necessarily. It's particularly dangerous for blind people.
      See: http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05 /bm0506/bm050605.htm

    45. Re:I would like to know by sjwaste · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As the owner of a Supra, I'm aware of some pretty redneck projects like sticking a 350 under the hood, but nothing to the effect of what you're describing. I'd really like to see it done, though, I think it might be a good idea and the car's a good candidate for it.

      I would suggest staying with the stock engine to start, though. In the 3rd gen, you're getting 250 ft-lbs of torque stock out of a 3L I6, and quite a bit more with basic modifications. It'd be a lot easier to keep that than trying to shoehorn in a diesel, at least to start. You could drop out the transmission and try the alternator idea, there's a lot of room under there. But I think the suspension would make the hub motors a difficult idea. Not impossible since there's a lot of space in there, but you'd essentially need to fab new hubs that can fit a motor and still mount to the upper/lower A-arms.

      Assuming the stock engine, would replacing the driveline with motors at the hubs be a net gain over normal driveline losses? I'm nearly certain you'd come out ahead with a diesel engine.

    46. Re:I would like to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been thinking along similar lines, but starting with a AWD station wagon (suburu comes to mind). The suspension problem becomes a lot easier, take the differential out and chain drive that to the electric motors. The CV's take care of the hard work and the chain has enough flex that other problems don't happen.

      The other neat thing to do with this is to have a steering input into the control logic so you can add a little tank like power shift to one side. Not sure how this would be like to drive but it would be fun to find out.

      The station wagon helps because you can throw the engine in the back until it works and then work on putting it in the hood later. (I'm assuming that this is a LOOONG project)

    47. Re:I would like to know by Radon360 · · Score: 1

      I suspect this type of transmission might be viable in locomotives too, actually, and might be what they were talking about somewhere where I heard they were talking about a "hybrid locomotive", as it probably would improve their efficiency. I don't remember where that was though.

      Aside from the size/complexity issue of a transmission in a Diesel locomotive, the main reason that each axle in the truck has an electric motor is the technical difficulty of getting the torque mechanically into the truck (part that holds 2-3 axles) itself. If you were to put a drive shaft into a truck, you'd likely twist the truck right off the tracks.

      While a CVT would eliminate the hundreds of gear ratios needed to get up to speed, CVT's don't scale up real well to high torque applications. The CVTs that you see in automobiles now are pretty much snowmobile transmissions on steroids. It's a V-belt that runs across a tapered pulley. Building a belt that is strong enough/reliable is the key.

      Yes, hybrid yard locomotives have been developed. These are locomotives that have a genset (smaller than the typical prime mover (Diesel)) to charge huge banks of batteries that run the axle motors. It works in a yard application because there's lots of intermittent use of the locomotives, starting and stopping. Something that hybrids are very adept at proving themselves. Under road conditions where high power demands are called for long durations, it just couldn't keep up. Even if it could, the hybrid advantage would be fairly minimal in road service.

    48. Re:I would like to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about flex fuel hybrids? Is anyone making those? I've not seen info about them anywhere and it seems like it's a pretty simple change to make. (As I understand, you only need a stainless steel gas tank and fuel lines).

    49. Re:I would like to know by vanyel · · Score: 1

      The CVTs that you see in automobiles now are pretty much snowmobile transmissions on steroids.

      The ones in hybrids, at least the Prius (and I'm pretty certain the Escape is similar), are much different and don't use belts, though I doubt they would work well in a locomotive either:

      http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-transmis sion

    50. Re:I would like to know by PPH · · Score: 1

      How about a nuclear battery to power the motors? Sure... we need some RD done to make it safe and non-proliferationable, but I think it can be done.


      Any publicly accessible technology must be safe in the event that some half-wit shade tree mechanic wrenches on it:


      "Hey Bubba! What's all this heavy stuff you unbolted from the engine?"

      "That's something they call 'shielding'."

      "You gonna put it back on?"

      "Nah. The car goes a lot faster without all that weight."

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    51. Re:I would like to know by John+Courtland · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Assuming the stock engine, would replacing the driveline with motors at the hubs be a net gain over normal driveline losses? I'm nearly certain you'd come out ahead with a diesel engine.
      Well, you lose quite a bit of power from transmission to driveshaft to differential to axles. I know, as an extreme example, the Ford AOD takes something near or over 20% of the engine's output to drive. Differentials eat a few %, and the rotational masses involved are not very light, and take a nontrivial amount of power to accelerate.

      With an electronic/electric system, you'd have easier acceleration, because the only rotational masses would be the axles and tires, and there would be no gears to drive or fluid to cause parasitic losses. You can also regain power by using regenerative brakes, which helps overall system efficiency, where no such thing exists in a purely mechanical vehicle (I'm aware that some hybrids use regenerative braking systems). Also, you have a computer system to keep the engine at it's torque peak, thereby keeping it at or near its most efficient speed at all times. Intake runners can be easily tuned to accommodate a desired target RPM, and the computer can control air intake charge volume and fuel flow like is currently done with CVT vehicles.

      Also, with so much electrical power on tap, a lot of accessories that are currently belt-driven could become electrically powered, like the AC system. I *believe* the parasitic loss of the AC pulley on the engine (especially at full throttle, even with the clutch disengaged) is greater than what an electric AC unit would be. Also, with an electric AC, there are less moving parts, and therefore a simpler system, which tends to be more efficient.

      All that said, it would require a largeish battery system, and those are neither light nor energy-efficient to manufacture. I don't have a solution for that, honestly. I can only hope battery technology ramps up in the near future; storing electrical charge for later use without having to rely on mechanics would be a huge boost for both efficiency and longevity. I still believe it would be more efficient in the long run, though.
      --
      Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
    52. Re:I would like to know by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Due to the slack in couplings, the transmission only needs to get the locomotive into motion, with some extra allowance in the calculations for engineering sloppiness. A typical locomotive weighs about 10 times as much as a fully loaded boxcar. (Also, 200 car trains are not usually pulled by a single locomotive.) The requirement for starting the 200 car train is thus reduced by a factor of 200/10=20. Gear count goes down from 28 to 22. The initial speed is thus 0.24 mph, assuming wheel slip is not allowed. The torque problem is solved by having two matched engines rotating in opposite directions. That said, who would want a mechanical system subject to so many more wear mechanisms than an electrical system?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    53. Re:I would like to know by Eivind · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your math and your examples. My entire point was that with an engine that has a 1:2 relation between highest and lowest working-rpm, you can make do with a gearbox where every gear is half the gearing of the previous one. It is true that in practice there tends to be significant overlap, but that doesn't change the fundamental idea at all.

      You make several mistakes, but it don't matter much to the overall point. gearboxes for trains are impractical. But you would not, infact, require one with 1000 different gears in it. A dozen or so would do. Also, 200-wagon trains do not, infact, have similar performance in acceleration or hill-climbing to highway-trucks. The performance is atleast an order of magnitude poorer. Also, 4600:1 gear-ratios are not typically made by having a gargantuan wheel with 4600 teeth for every one on another, instead it is done by a cascade of smaller gearings.

  8. three billion? by Surt · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.starvation.net/

    Even if you buy their generous estimate of 35K deaths/day, that's over 200 years to reach 3 billion deaths.

    --
    "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    1. Re:three billion? by Maxmin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even more surprising than the absurd 3-billion-deaths number, is how people are more than happy to harp on it, than to focus on the fact that many people do indeed die of starvation.

      --
      O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
    2. Re:three billion? by SQL+Error · · Score: 1

      Even if you buy their generous estimate of 35K deaths/day, that's over 200 years to reach 3 billion deaths.
      Maybe Castro was making an offer rather than a prediction?
    3. Re:three billion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually that's 35k children under the age of 5 per day that die from malnutrition and preventable diseases combined.

    4. Re:three billion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even more surprising is that people think harping on an absurd number is tantamount to ignoring the issue of starvation - even though throwing out absurd numbers as part of political rhetoric (even though the issue has nothing to do with starvation) is a much greater threat to solving starvation.

    5. Re:three billion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If you look up, you'll see vivaoporto explain the absurd-looking numbers quite adequately.

      It's all funny and ha ha, but cut either the summary is lying or TFA is. Here is the piece that mentions the 3.5 billion number, FTF editorial [www.cuba.cu] (in spanish), and he was talking about hunger and thirsty, a much more serious problem in the near future. People like to distort the opposing part statements, but at least have the facts from the original source and judge from yourselves.

      And my (rough) translation:

      I'll resort to an official news agency, founded in 1945 and generally well informed about the economic and social problems in the world: the TELAM [telam.com.ar]. Textually, I say:

      "About 2 billion people will live, in only 18 years, in countries and regions where water will be a distant memory. Two thirds of the world population may live in places where this scarcity will create social and economic unrest in such magnitude that could lead those people to wars on this precious 'blue gold'".

      "From the last 100 years, the use of water has increased in a rate two times superior to the population growth rate.

      "According with the World Water Council (WWC), it is estimated that in the year 2015 the number of people affected by this serious situation will increase to 3 500 billion people

    6. Re:three billion? by susano_otter · · Score: 1

      Even more surprising than the absurd 3-billion-deaths number, is how people are more than happy to harp on it, than to focus on the fact that many people do indeed die of starvation.

      Why should that be surprising? Have you just not been paying attention to human nature, all your life?

      Meanwhile, many people are dying of starvation, yet here you are, somehow coming up with an excuse to chide people for criticizing absurd political rhetoric. Do you find that surprising, or just embarassing and shameful?
      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    7. Re:three billion? by Eivind · · Score: 1
      And that estimate is very generous indeed, the estimates for total famine-deaths in the 20th century are in the 50 - 120 million range. This is a lot of people -- but it is 1300 to 3300 pro day, not 35000 pro day.

      Infact, generous is the wrong word. The "estimate" is deliberately misleading crap.

    8. Re:three billion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even more surprising than the absurd 3-billion-deaths number, is how people are more than happy to harp on it, than to focus on the fact that many people do indeed die of starvation.

      I'm all for curing starvation, but on general principle, a person cannot eat "focus".

      So imagine you and I are standing in the midwest of the U.S., and I hand over to you a pile of corn equivalent to roughly 2 billion gallons of ethanol. In practical and specific terms, how do you think you're going to cure starvation with this?
    9. Re:three billion? by bahwi · · Score: 1

      While 3b is certainly a very high number, you're forgetting what starvation is. It isn't an instant killing disease, it's a lack of food and the body can survive on small amounts, people can be in a starvation mode for years, or most of their natural life, any many people are. While they are "alive" their growth in stunted, their development is stunted, and they can never get ahead. Of course, most countries produce enough food to feed their own citizens, but it's more profitable to turn it into feed for livestock...

    10. Re:three billion? by Surt · · Score: 1

      It's not me that's forgetting, it's Castro:
      "In Thursday's article, Castro said more than 3 billion people in the world were condemned to die prematurely of hunger or thirst from plans by his ideological foe, the United States, to convert foodstuffs like corn into fuel for cars."

      He's the one who used the word 'die'.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  9. Troll by 313373_bot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The only thing more pathetic than being a living fossil from the cold war is making puerile jokes about one. Are you afraid from him?

    --
    ^[:q!
  10. No, we save tax dollars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He doesn't realize that we pay farmers NOT to plant corn, soybeans, and other crops through agricultrial subsidies. They can now plant, sell at a higher price that what they currently recieve, and the government doesn't have to continue the payments.

    1. Re:No, we save tax dollars by khallow · · Score: 1

      Them's trolling words. In other words, now we pay farmers far more than we currently do to plant stuff again and we somehow "save tax dollars".

  11. this is good by gtshafted · · Score: 1

    I'm actually surprised the DOE come to a logical conclusion. I could be wrong but with the current technology, the amount of energy that we can produce from corn (or grass, ...) doesn't even equal the amount that we use to produce it (converting it to ethanol or whatever...). There is some promise with genetically engineered bacteria producing ethanol, but what happens when that stuff gets into the wild (which is inevitable given what happened with genetically engineered food). Personally I'm still looking towards solar or fusion....

    1. Re:this is good by OSU+ChemE · · Score: 1

      I've seen a range of numbers, some saying the entire process is less than break-even, some saying it nets energy, but even those that show a net energy gain, the gain is pretty slim, on the order of 10-30%.

    2. Re:this is good by DeathToBill · · Score: 1

      Oh no, not bacteria that produce ethanol! Help! The world will end!

      Wait a minute...

      --
      Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
    3. Re:this is good by Taxman415a · · Score: 1

      The energy return ratio on ethanol from corn is generally agreed to be about 1.3 meaning that for every unit of fossil fuel input you get 1.3 units of useable energy. That's pretty pathetic, and if that were the only factor you'd never do it. It's the subsidies that are allowing an inneficient crop to be used for ethanol. Biodiesel's energy ratio is over 3, especially for efficient crops but the corn lobby is stronger obviously.

    4. Re:this is good by njm · · Score: 1

      > Personally I'm still looking towards solar or fusion....

      Just so you know, biofuels are a form of solar power.

  12. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Are you really that ignorant?

    I don't think jobs are the problem, but the supply of food.
    Not everywhere is like the land of the plenty were the supermarkets are stocked with food.

  13. Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by vivaoporto · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sugar cane ethanol is the viable alternative, if you are going to use biomass based fuel. Brazil is doing it since the seventies, it already works on most cars that use gas with little to no modification (Fiat, GM and other auto companies already produces them in quantities there) and it is almost a closed cycle, using barely to no fossil fuel on its production. This (warning, PDF) is a good summary on the benefits of sugar cane ethanol, of course we can wait for hydrogen or whatever is the technology of the future, just like we are waiting since the seventies, but if you want something that already works, sugar cane ethanol is the way to go.

    Do you know that the only reason that makes U.S. not to get more ethanol from Brazil is protectionism via subsides and import quotas? Fidel got it right on this one, in order to protect the few (and rich) local corn farmers (not to mention the oil barons), U.S. impedes cheap sugar and ethanol to reach the U.S., artificially increasing the demand of corn for ethanol production, driving corn prices up and, this way, making things harder for poor people on U.S. itself and, indirectly, on Mexico too (thanks Nafta). Check this article and see, it is past the point of speculation and conspiracy theories.

    Law of unintended consequences in action here. It could be different. Unfortunately, I'm not a citizen of U.S., so, I'm not part of the democratic process there. But a lot of you are, and only you could make the difference. You can wait for the Tesla electric car all your lives (maybe it will fly too, if you wait time enough) while complaining about dependence on fossil fuels and financing wars on it, or you can make the difference now and take a stand on it.

    1. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm more annoyed than anything about the fact that the only cane sugar soda drinks in the US are those imported from foreign countries (like the Coke bottles you get in the Hispanic foods aisle at the grocery store).

      Why the fuck are we drinking corn syrup instead of cane sugar? Yay for incredibly stupid ideas put in place to subsidize farmers in the US.

    2. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by dyslexicbunny · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I'm not a citizen of U.S., so, I'm not part of the democratic process there. But a lot of you are, and only you could make the difference. I'm a US citizen and I can safely say, neither are we! Apparently you've never heard of Diebold.

      In some seriousness, our agriculture business is completely fucked up with all the subsidies and quotas that removing them all would do God knows what to our food prices here. Honestly, USDA should fund a couple of studies (from people not associated with the agriculture industry) to see what the impact of trying to fix everything might be before doing anything first.
    3. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There are several smaller producers out there who use cane sugar. Jones Soda is switching over.

      Here's the froogle results for cane sugar sodas.

      They are available if you look.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    4. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Informative

      Do you know that the only reason that makes U.S. not to get more ethanol from Brazil is protectionism via subsides and import quotas? Fidel got it right on this one, in order to protect the few (and rich) local corn farmers (not to mention the oil barons), U.S. impedes cheap sugar and ethanol to reach the U.S., artificially increasing the demand of corn for ethanol production, driving corn prices up and, this way, making things harder for poor people on U.S. itself and, indirectly, on Mexico too (thanks Nafta).
      You misspelled "sugar industry"

      The sugar lobby is the reason that high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is the main ingredient in [too many products to list]. The sugar industry lobbied for all those import quotas & tariffs to keep the domestic price high. HFCS is cheaper and in greater supply than beet or cane sugar, which is why it is so widely used
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    5. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1
      Fidel got it right on this one, in order to protect the few (and rich) local corn farmers (not to mention the oil barons), U.S. impedes cheap sugar ...

      Actually, I believe the tariff on imported sugar cane is to protect the (approx) 600 U.S. cane farmers. This lead to the use of (cheaper) domestic high-fructose corn syrup, yada, yada, yada. Stupid, yes, but that's special interests for you...

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    6. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by 4e617474 · · Score: 1

      That piece makes it sound like sugar springs from the Earth and ethanol just flows right out of it (with greater efficiency in the near future!). And the whole thing manages to not cost anything, but produce lots of high-wage jobs. Tell me what the energy input of sugar cane ethanol production is - where does it come from, what is its rate of emissions. Even if it drove itself to the refinery and fermented itself, you wouldn't get more than 15% ethanol and the specific heat of aqueous solutions doesn't care what crop you used. And the slide mentions using anhydrous ethanol, have you been using benzene or cyclohexane as your entrainer? Or have you been that good with zeolite for the last 30 years?

      Even if sugar cane ethanol is the bed of roses UNICA wants me to think it is (Sugar waters itself! We told them to stop burning the cane fields so they did!) I just don't buy Brazil meeting all of the US's fuel needs in addition to the needs of its own 188 million citizens. And Brazil might be living in sugar Shangri-La but things have a way of working differently here.

      --
      Finally modding someone offtopic when they rant about what "Begging the Question" means: priceless.
    7. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by dosguru · · Score: 1

      Where are these rich corn farmers you speak of? I'll ask my father, uncles, and grandfather if they are rich. Or any of the other corn farmers I know here in Iowa if they know any. I guess they've all been holding back on me all of these years...

    8. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by Thunderstruck · · Score: 1

      Do you know that the only reason that makes U.S. not to get more ethanol from Brazil is protectionism via subsides and import quotas? Fidel got it right on this one, in order to protect the few (and rich) local corn farmers (not to mention the oil barons),

      I'd like you to introduce me to these rich corn farmers you speak of. I live in a united State with a lot of corn farmers, and not one of them is rich. If you know of some, I'd like to find out how they do it, and tell my friends.

      --
      Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
    9. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by dbIII · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I find it bizzare that you are using expensive corn syrup in your carbonated drinks at all instead of cheaper sugar - but that's protectionism for you.

      On a better note there is commericial cellulose based ethanol production going on in the USA - it's just still at a small scale apparently. That's the answer to corn ethanol - use the stalks and leaves instead of the kernels.

    10. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by Mspangler · · Score: 1

      Not in the US. Sugar cane will grow in South Florida, the soggy corner of Texas, and bayou country. Now sugar beets will grow elsewhere, but they don't seem to be suitable for some reason. At least I haven't heard anything on sugar beet ethanol.

      The other key points you miss are:

      The technology for corn-based ethanol is available NOW.
      The equipment for corn-based ethanol is available NOW.
      The business-plan for corn-based ethanol is available NOW.
      You can take the above, go to the bank and get a loan to build the plant NOW.

      Then, in five years, with a good cash flow, you can go back to the bank with a plan to build a sidestream cellulose digester for the left-over corn-based biomass. A few years after that, (after you get it working) you can go back for another sidestream cellulose digester tuned for switchgrass, hemp, or pigweeds for that matter. (Now there is is fast growing fuel crop for you Ph.D. candidates to target.)

      Eventually, the corn system gets shut down because something more profitable has come out, and everyone is happy. But if you keep waiting for the perfect answer, we will be burning fossil fuels for another hundred years.

      To put it in PC terms, are you going to stick to your 2 Ghz P-4 until until Nehalem ships, or is a Conroe worth having for the work it can do between now and then? Another example: should you keep running an incandescent light because a technology even better than CFL (which does have that annoying mercury problem) is right around the corner? Or should you grab the CFL and call it good enough for now?

    11. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by jonwil · · Score: 1

      The technology to turn sugar cane into ethanol is well established and proven.
      The equipment needed is readily available off the shelf.
      And if it wasnt for a handful of hick sugar farmers in Florida dictating US trade and tariff policy, the sugar cane required to fuel the plants could easily come from any number of countries including Brazil and Australia (both of whom would very much like to be able to sell sugar to the US both for human consumption and for biofuel production)

    12. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by HungWeiLo · · Score: 1

      You live in the corn belt and you don't know Archer Daniels Midland?

      --
      There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
    13. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by khallow · · Score: 1

      My concern here is what happens when the government cuts the ethanol subsidies? Suddenly you owe money, your business plan is shot, and you have negative cash flow. I guess it's not that big a problem, if that was a seperate corporation that you can cut loose. I'm still dubious that you can make money long term on this.

    14. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sugar cane ethanol is the viable alternative, if you are going to use biomass based fuel. Brazil is doing it since the seventies, it already works on most cars that use gas with little to no modification

      You are only showing a tiny portion of the story. Or maybe you have a strange idea of what "viable" means.

      Sugar cane works great in Brazil because:
      - they have a completely different climate (e.g., they can cut down rainforests for it)
      - the government provides huge subsidies for ethanol (order of magnitude, a dollar per gallon)
      - they outlawed all the alternatives (like diesel engines)

      I'm not a citizen of U.S., so, I'm not part of the democratic process there.

      Good! Stay out. If we wanted the kind of authoritarianism that Brazil's been doing since the 1970's, we'd have elected that fucktard Bush.
    15. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by Alioth · · Score: 1

      The real gain of cellulosic ethanol is you can use any old invasive weed as the feed stock. So you don't need fertilizer, and you can use land that's marginal for food farming.

    16. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by bi_boy · · Score: 1

      It may be anecdotal but I doubt many local corn farmers are getting terribly rich off of subsidies. Basically I'll defer to the book, The Omnivore's Dilemma (Pollan, 2006) and he spends a lot of time talking about corn. Its origins, its uses, he spends time speaking with a corn farmer in Iowa to give his research and data-points a face so to speak. There is not so much a demand for corn as there is too much of it, a lot of corn is grown in the US (10 billion bushels cited by Pollan) of a kind known as number 2 which is basically commodity corn. Not really useful for eating as it takes several hours of boiling to make edible and tastes like corn starch as opposed to corn. It is this number 2 corn that is sold on the cheap and what is used for such things as high fructose corn syrup as well as a myriad of others. It is also used to feed the majority of beef cattle in the USA as well, despite the fact that cows were not designed to eat grain and that if it weren't for slaughter they would die a horrible death very quickly from their forced grain-fed diet.

      So I guess really I only wanted to take issue with the remark that corn being used for ethanol could be used for food (not likely if it is number 2 corn) and also with the idea that corn farmers are mighty corn kingpins of the midwest reaping vast riches. The anecdotal case presented by Pollan gives me the image of anything but that.

      As an aside to the off-chance this gets modded despite terribly lacking a point, to those who have not yet checked The Omnivore's Dilemma I highly recommend, informative and entertaining.

      --
      Chicken fried butter sticks? Do ... do you use a fork? - Black Mage, 8-Bit Theater
    17. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by Thunderstruck · · Score: 1

      Sure, I'm familiar with ADM, but if you read the link you posted, you can see they don't do much, if any, actual corn farming. They run processing plants.

      --
      Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
    18. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Sugar cane ethanol is the viable alternative, if you are going to use biomass based fuel. Brazil is doing it

      Brazil also has a climate that's much more ideal for growing sugarcane than the continental US does. We use corn crops for food sweetening and fuel supply in no small part because that's what grows well here.

    19. Re:Sugar Cane fuel is the current answer by Mspangler · · Score: 1

      "the sugar cane required to fuel the plants could easily come from any number of countries including Brazil and Australia "

      So we are still dependent on a foreign source of supply for our energy?

      And this gains us what?

  14. wonderful by qw0ntum · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Great. At least someone realizes that corn isn't the answer. The answer is hemp, which among other industrial uses is great for biofuel production.


    Before you say it, no, we don't need to think of the children. Industrial hemp contains less than 0.3% THC, as opposed to the 20%-30% that is found in unfertilized female plants that are grown for drug use. But God forbid anyone grow hemp: we all know what evils marijuana can cause.

    --
    'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
    1. Re:wonderful by Aokubidaikon · · Score: 2, Funny

      How about we genetically modify corn to product THC? That would solve all of our problems.

    2. Re:wonderful by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

      But God forbid anyone grow hemp: we all know what evils marijuana can cause [imdb.com].

      This being slashdot, I didn't follow the link.

      I presume it's a Steve Carell and/or Will Farrell movie?

      - RG>
      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    3. Re:wonderful by qw0ntum · · Score: 1

      "Reefer Madness" bud, 1936 film about the dangers of 'marijuana cigarettes'. Required reading in the history of propaganda.

      --
      'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
    4. Re:wonderful by PPH · · Score: 1
      No! Not hemp!

      This will divert valuable hemp production away from the clothing articles typically worn by the Dead Heads. On the brighter side, at least they'll be able to fill up their VW vans.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:wonderful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If memory serves one of the really big undealt with problems with ethanol as a fuel is keeping it dry enough to use a fuel. Is biodiesel immune to this issue? Given the rather different solvent properties of the two this could actually become a big issue when you're talking about the whole economy switching over. IIRC when they had to add ethanol to fuel over the summer there was a bit of a flap because they hadn't bothered to really work out the distribution issue. Apparently conventional gasoline can be transported by pipe quite a long way, once ~10% or whatever ethanol is added, it begins to absorb more water in the process. They solvent the problem by adding the ethanol essentially to the tanker trucks that thendistributed it to gasoline stations. Anything like this for biodiesel? Given the scale of distriubtion thus far it may simply have not come up yet.

      -sk

    6. Re:wonderful by catalina · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that perhaps drivers using hemp-fueled cars will be doing about 7 mph, and saving fuel that way.....

    7. Re:wonderful by afidel · · Score: 1

      Yeah I love to use that one when I VJ. The other ones that are fun are the 60's LSD propaganda films.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:wonderful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20%-30% THC is a bullshit number made up by the authorities. I can't Google from work to back this up, so I'll just throw it back at you.

    9. Re:wonderful by notamisfit · · Score: 1

      "Hey, am I driving OK?"
      "I think we're parked, man."

      --
      Jesus is coming -- look busy!
    10. Re:wonderful by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1


      The problem with industrial hemp is still that a simple visual inspection won't tell you whether a plant contains THC or not. The feds don't want farmers hiding a quarter acre of a plant they can sell for $800/lb in the midst of 1000 acres of an identical-looking plant that sells for $0.50/lb.

      Of course, Legalizing It would solve this problem as well, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

    11. Re:wonderful by qw0ntum · · Score: 1

      That's actually a really good point. However, if I remember correctly, the plants with high THC levels are unfertilized female plants - if the plants are fertilized (by a male plant) then they don't have that high THC content. I feel like this problem could be relatively easily solved, either by legalization or by making sure there are plenty of male plants out there. And once the price starts rising due to demand for biofuel production the economic incentive will decline.

      --
      'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
  15. Ethanol's real name - FARM SUBSIDY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Why doesn't anyone recognize this ethanol bullshit for what it is - a sop to farmers and farm state congressmen. We already use all the arable land on this planet to feed ourselves and the beef we eat, where are we going to grow all the plants that would be needed to feed our SUVs?

    1. Re:Ethanol's real name - FARM SUBSIDY by jcr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      a sop to farmers and farm state congressmen.

      No, it's much more about massive corporate welfare for ADM (price fixer to the world.)

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    2. Re:Ethanol's real name - FARM SUBSIDY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is essentially the Republican Party's buyout of midwestern farm states' votes. I think this is despicable. And I'm a card-carrying Republica.... wait a minute, I lost the card. BUT ANYWAY, whatever happened to being the party of FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY, hmm? Pathetic!

  16. Let them eat TOBACCO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Hmmm, how many hungry people could be fed if the farmland in Cuba used to grow tobacco was used to raise food, rather then a crop known for it's addicting properties?

    On the other side, corn base ethanol is a subsidy for big corporate agribusiness, and has nothing to do with actual energy independence or carbon dioxide reduction.

    The compromise positon is free cigars and moonshine for all!!

  17. Why not? by Runefox · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I mean, when you eat corn, it's pretty much in one end and out the other, anyway, right? Just make everyone in America eat a cob of corn every day, and let the sewage treatment plants separate the fuel from the... Well, you know.

    --
    Screw the rules, I have green hair!
    1. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. Methane. Manure diposal is a massive problem, both animal and human. I don't quite understand why sewage hasn't been coupled with methane producing bacteria. Particularly animal--there have been articles on /. in the past showing this is rather feasible, and it eliminates odor problems to surrounding communities (to which there have been lawsuits and complains about, particularly pig).

      Then again, I also don't understand landfills and incinerators either; either trash is or isn't safe to burn, but if it is as safe as burning wood (which isn't healthy actually), I don't see why we are dumping stuff in the ground and burning fuel running compactors overtop of them when we could be using the energy and not having to take over land for landfill development. Not to mention, the landfills I've passed by all have tubes in the ground for the release of methane, and they all seem to be going into the air, not recovered.

      I'm certain someone's done this, but I wonder if it'd be better to go back to septic systems and their offgas to offset fuel consumption in homes. I seem to remember an old film where basements and pits were used and the methane produced used as fuel for cooking, etc.

    2. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not a stupid idea, use the excess nitrates in the water of sewage treatment plants to grow algae under a high light density. Algae are pretty much the mose efficient photosynthisisers on the planet and they can be easily used to produce ethanol....

    3. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just make everyone in America eat a cob of corn every day, and let the sewage treatment plants separate the fuel from the... Well, you know. But then what would Green Giant use to make canned cream corn? I don't think they'd let the government take away that revenue.
  18. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People are starving because of a food supply problem?! THE HELL YOU SAY!

  19. Oh shit, what now? by fm6 · · Score: 2, Funny

    The news here is not that corn is a bad way to make ethanol. Everybody who isn't in the pocket of agribusiness knows that. The news here is that a true blue bushie (or should I say true red bushie? how did Republicans become red?) has reached this conclusion. Which is going to upset a lot of people. Which means they're up to something. What? Is Bush going to invade Iowa?

    1. Re:Oh shit, what now? by khallow · · Score: 1

      (or should I say true red bushie? how did Republicans become red?)

      Apparently, the color scheme for elections (traditionally using red, white, and blue) was standardized for the 2000 US presidential elections with states G. W. Bush carried being colored red and Al Gore being blue. The "red state" and "blue state" labeling comes from this.
    2. Re:Oh shit, what now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and I would hazard a guess that when the colors were being picked, the idea of calling liberal democrats "reds" was tossed out as being a little too suggestive of McCarthyism for the media's tastes -- they like to think of themselves as unbiased. (I'd say their actual bias is towards the Washington elite power structure itself, rather than 'left' or 'right', so they're at least partly right.)

    3. Re:Oh shit, what now? by tfiedler · · Score: 1

      As an Iowan, I take offense to your statements.. we don't just raise corn, we also raise pigs.

      All kidding aside, you city dwellers have zero clue about food production. I mean that in every aspect too. Most of you couldn't grow a dandelion in a pot of hog manure and not even three of you probably understand what subsidies give back to you.

      Farm subsidies are like illegal immigration.

      Without ag subsidies you couldn't afford to eat anything made of any grain, or buy eggs, products made with eggs or milk, or for that matter, anything made with soy. Meat would be way, way more expensive too.

      Without illegal immigration levels boosting the ranks of the service industries, your fresh produce would all be three or four times more expensive to buy, and restaurants would charge more because their backroom help would cost more; never mind that you'd all have to get off your lazy butts and mow your own lawns.

      People forget or ignore the fact that the reason the government subsidizes agriculture is to keep farms in business when consumers won't pay a fair price. You start paying what your food costs to produce and then the government can do away with prices, until then, shove off.

      --
      Democrats and Republicans are like AIDS and Cancer, I want neither!
    4. Re:Oh shit, what now? by Cervantes · · Score: 1

      What? Is Bush going to invade Iowa?

      No, he won't be invading Eastern Europe until his third term.

      --
      If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
    5. Re:Oh shit, what now? by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Which doesn't even come close to answering my question: how did the Republicans end up with red -- the color of socialism!

    6. Re:Oh shit, what now? by fm6 · · Score: 1

      That's all very well, except we're not talking about food crop subsidies, we're talking about the government subsidizing corn for fuel. Which just isn't workable because it takes almost as much energy to create corn ethanol as you get out of it. Some people claim it takes more.

      Incidentally, the part of California where I live is known for its strawberries, orchards, and artichokes. (Though not as much as it used to be, now that the best land is paved over for electronics factories.) You don't have to tell me about the stupidity of "sealing the border".

    7. Re:Oh shit, what now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an Iowan, I take offense to your statements.. we don't just raise corn, we also raise pigs. Capitalist pigs?
    8. Re:Oh shit, what now? by khallow · · Score: 1

      I could answer your question, you could read the other reply, or you could think about it for a couple of minutes. If there are two colors, red and blue...

    9. Re:Oh shit, what now? by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Dude, pay attention: red is traditionally the color of the left. Blue is traditionally the color of the right. How did they get swapped?

    10. Re:Oh shit, what now? by khallow · · Score: 1

      The media didn't want to appear biased.

    11. Re:Oh shit, what now? by jafac · · Score: 1

      ...how did Republicans become red?...

      Red is the color of action, of anger, blue, of depression, passivity.

      As far as marketing campaigns go; Red was a no-brainer.
      Who made that choice, anyway? (Rupert Murdoch?).

      Red was chosen as a "brand icon" in the early communist movement, to get the people riled up for communism. Sure, there was all the symbolic "blood of the people" talk. But basically, it was a political propaganda PR stunt. As such - the recent "Red state/Blue state" movement in American politics was a populist movement. Republicanism and Conservativism has been framed in populist terms: fight the Coastal Liberal Elites, who are in bed with big-business, and the academics, and anti-religious science movement, and the UN and foreign forces who want to destroy the American way of life, and our Christian (okay; "Judeo-Christian") culture. Get down with the down-home American heartland in "flyover country".

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    12. Re:Oh shit, what now? by An+ominous+Cow+art · · Score: 1

      The rednecks co-opted 'red'. I would have thought it was obvious. :-)

    13. Re:Oh shit, what now? by fm6 · · Score: 1

      That actually makes sense. Though you're wrong about the communists establishing red as a "brand": the use of red flags by revolutionaries, dissidents, and striking workers goes back to at least a century before Marx. Still, your basic argument is sound.

      It's also consistent with something I just read in Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler: in the 1920s, the Nazis deliberately used red in their banners to piss off the Communists. Who would come to the Nazi beer-hall meetings and pick fights. Which would make the news, which is what the Nazis had in mind all along.

      This, alas, is a reminder that the Democrats and liberals (to say nothing of the tiny remnant of American socialists) are damned wimpy about letting the Republicans and conservatives define the political vocabulary. Depressing.

      But note: the Republicans being "red" means everybody has already forgotten the day when a "red" was somebody with left-wing views. Those that forget history, yada yada yada.

  20. But Who's Going to Break This to Willie Nelson? by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 1

    He seemed kind of adamant that corn fuels were the way to go...

    1. Re:But Who's Going to Break This to Willie Nelson? by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      I think he's into biodiesel. That often comes from soy not corn. You still get the leftovers as feed.
      --
      Get Real! Get Solar: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  21. One word by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    Biodiesel. You're absolutely right.

    --

    +++ATH0
  22. Its about time by AP2k · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...we wake up from this corn ethanol farce. Corn ethanol hasnt gotten close to breaking even and isnt expected to do so. Meanwhile viable alternatives like sweet and brown potatoes which can yeild just as much ethanol as sugar cane per volume are given the blind eye. Potatoes grow easilly, have few enemies, and require next to no fertilizers.

    I would really like to see automakers push more diesel engines in America. Bioiesel production per energy breaks even with nearly every method. It also has greater energy than gasoline per volume, unlike ethanol which has about 2/3's as much as gasoline.

    Ultimately the defining factor of energy infrastructure is the technology itself and demand for innovation of that technology. Today, automakers are focused on riding out low compression engines to the very end instead of focusing on more efficient and powerful diesel technology. But as already pointed out, it was never about energy independance, but rather kickbacks to the agriculture business. So we will not see soon a Manhattan project for more efficient engines, nor will we see the same fervor put into biodiesel prduction that we currently have for the ethanol pipe dream.

    Thanks Congress. You are awesome.

    1. Re:Its about time by pkbarbiedoll · · Score: 1

      Someone mod the parent up. Just because we work in IT and may not have many blue collar friends/relatives doesn't mean that scores of willing hard working Americans are chomping at the bit to farm, especially when doing so would lessen our dependence on oil. We often seem so intent on screwing over a large number of blue collar folk in the name of cheap goods from overseas. Growing sweet/potatoes is something that can be done easily, affordably and organically. This is an option we need to promote, instead of importing more goods from other countries. As if we don't import enough as it is.

    2. Re:Its about time by jfengel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm all for figuring out that corn isn't a miracle for anything except winning votes in Iowa, but where did you get the idea that potatoes require "next to no fertilizers"? I grow potatoes and you have to fertilize the bejeezus out of the things or you end up with cute little micro-potatoes.

      More data:

      http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1619.html

      Potatoes are still better than corn; for all I know you're right that they're the most efficient. But I just wanted to point out that fertilizers are still going to be necessary.

    3. Re:Its about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Potatoes grow easilly, have few enemies, and require next to no fertilizers.

      But using them would make my freedom fries cost more damnit! No one actually eats corn!

    4. Re:Its about time by caseih · · Score: 1

      Potatoes require no fertilizer, eh? Where did you here that. Maybe they require less than corn, but they still require a lot. Even worse, pressure from the processing industry has driven Idaho to the brink of exhaustion, soil-wise. Potatoes are planted so often (cheating the rotation) that many fields are diseased, depleted, and desertified. In fact there are signs on the freeway saying, "low visibility area" due to blowing top soil. This pressure on the land has extended everywhere potatoes have gone, including Washington and Alberta. The land that potatoes grow on is heavily fertilized just to sustain the crops. Filler crops, such as wheat, are taken off completely as silage usually, preventing the return of fiber into the ground. If we put even more pressures on the land (pressures on the crop), I think everything will just get even worse. Intensive agriculture anywhere has to be done very very carefully, and you have to really think about the land (it's a living entity after all). I've been involved with intensive agriculture for 20 years and I know it can be done in a way that does treat the land as well as possible. But ironically, these "eco" demands can often cause extremely harmful environmental practices. So we need to be careful we don't cause further problems.

    5. Re:Its about time by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      where did you get the idea that potatoes require "next to no fertilizers"? Despite the name, sweet potatoes are only distantly related to "regular" potatoes. They generally require very little in the way of soil amendment and can practically be grown in sand. I have no idea what a "brown potato" is, but presumably it is related to the sweet potato.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    6. Re:Its about time by evilviper · · Score: 3, Informative

      Corn ethanol hasnt gotten close to breaking even and isnt expected to do so.

      The latter is not true. It should more than break even.

      Bioiesel production per energy breaks even with nearly every method.

      That's not remotely true. There are numerous crops for which it is not a net gain to make into biodiesel.

      It also has greater energy than gasoline per volume, unlike ethanol which has about 2/3's as much as gasoline.

      Theoretical energy content hardly matters at all, since there is no 100% conversion method. In gasoline engines, ethanol does NOT result in a 1/3rd drop in fuel efficiency. As an additive, the drop is much lower, and in high concentrations, the higher octane means compression ratios can be increased without adverse effects, giving better fuel-mileage than pure gasoline, not worse.

      Today, automakers are focused on riding out low compression engines to the very end instead of focusing on more efficient and powerful diesel technology.

      The US has practically outlawed diesel cars over the past decade with strict emission controls, and high sulfur fuel. You can't really blame the auto companies.

      So we will not see soon a Manhattan project for more efficient engines, nor will we see the same fervor put into biodiesel prduction that we currently have for the ethanol pipe dream.

      Ethanol is only a stop-gap measure to begin with. Biodiesel would require everyone buying new diesel cars, then building up biodiesel infrastructure, only for slightly better biodiesel fuel to become the stop-gap measure, before emission-free vehicles come about.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    7. Re:Its about time by codemachine · · Score: 1

      No one actually eats corn!

      No, but thanks to the US government, we eat and drink a lot of "high fructose corn syrup" in our food products, instead of using actual sugar cane (which tastes better and is healthier).

      Apparently using it as a poor alternative to good sweeteners isn't enough - now we'll use it as a poor alternative to efficient fuels as well. Or maybe not, as it seems that the support isn't there after all. Maybe we can start putting real sugar back into our food sometime too.

    8. Re:Its about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Potatoes (...) have few enemies.

      The Irish.

    9. Re:Its about time by lababidi · · Score: 1

      And isn't fertilizer made with petroleum? seems quite counter productive.

    10. Re:Its about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. The potatoes hate the Irish. At this moment Mr. Potatohead is training young potatoes to carry out suicide attacks against the Irish. Mr Potatohead's ancestors failed in killing the Irish with starvation, but he will do whatever it takes to succeed this time.

  23. Starving by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 1

    So we need a Soylent green fuel.
    After the starved folks die, we catalyze them into either a fossil fuel, or a biofuel....
    Is it possible to create oil from biowaste? That is where it came from any way right?

    --
    0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
  24. Corn is Inefficient by hedgemage · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It takes more energy to grow and process the corn into biofuel than you would get from using the biofuel produced. The only reason why corn has been considered is because lobbying concerns have been pushing for it to increase the bottom line of big agri-businesses like ADM. The US already has massive corporate welfare programs for the 'poor farmers' of corporate agri-business and I'm surprised that the DoE has taken this stance.

  25. Correct by jeevesbond · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ethanol is not the way forward, the BBC has an interesting article on this, some excerpts:

    The grain required to fill the petrol tank of a Range Rover with ethanol is sufficient to feed one person per year. Assuming the petrol tank is refilled every two weeks, the amount of grain required would feed a hungry African village for a year

    Much of the fuel that Europeans use will be imported from Brazil, where the Amazon is being burned to plant more sugar and soybeans, and Southeast Asia, where oil palm plantations are destroying the rainforest habitat of orangutans and many other species.

    Using ethanol rather than petrol reduces total emissions of carbon dioxide by only about 13% because of the pollution caused by the production process, and because ethanol gets only about 70% of the mileage of petrol

    Food prices are already increasing. With just 10% of the world's sugar harvest being converted to ethanol, the price of sugar has doubled; the price of palm oil has increased 15% over the past year, with a further 25% gain expected next year.

    So it seems the right decisions are being made here. I'm quite suprised as I thought lobby groups were already springing up around so-called 'green fuels', I've seen some suspicious adverts for ethanol fuels on Canadian TV recently.

    --
    I'm going to transform myself into a mighty hawk. Either that or I'll just go and work at Dixons, haven't decided yet.
    1. Re:Correct by jeevesbond · · Score: 1

      *sigh* to start with the article is about corn, but that BBC article linked to is mostly about grain. Secondly there's nothing wrong with ethanol as the Reuters article points out:

      Sell said the future of biofuels is cellulosic ethanol, made from microbes that break down woody bits of non-food crops into sugars that can be fermented into fuel.

      I am, in fact, a noob. Sorry.

      --
      I'm going to transform myself into a mighty hawk. Either that or I'll just go and work at Dixons, haven't decided yet.
    2. Re:Correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hold up - ethanol made from any plant is carbon neutral... so how the hell can "Using ethanol rather than petrol reduces total emissions of carbon dioxide by only about 13% because of the pollution caused by the production process, and because ethanol gets only about 70% of the mileage of petrol" be true? Are they talking about E-85?

    3. Re:Correct by Detritus · · Score: 1
      The grain required to fill the petrol tank of a Range Rover with ethanol is sufficient to feed one person per year. Assuming the petrol tank is refilled every two weeks, the amount of grain required would feed a hungry African village for a year

      Right, every grain chute at a grain wholesaler has a big switch. Position A sends it to ADM. Position B sends it to "hungry African village".

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    4. Re:Correct by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      First...the whole 'carbon neutral' thing is a red herring and a scam devised to make SUV driving upper middle class people feel guilty so they'll buy 'carbon credits' and thus enrich a new cottage industry.

      Second, plants are only 'carbon neutral' (there's no such thing!) if they are not converted into atmospheric carbon emmissions...such as when fermented, distilled, and burned...

    5. Re:Correct by vivaoporto · · Score: 1

      Much of the fuel that Europeans use will be imported from Brazil, where the Amazon is being burned to plant more sugar and soybeans

      The "sugar" part on this statement is pure bullshit. Here is the Amazon Wikipedia article, check the map. Now, here there is a map with the a rough subdivision of the Brazilian hunger sub-regions. Check #2, "Nordeste Açucareiro" (translate roughly as "Sugar producing Northeast"). That's where sugar cane is successfully grown, in the coastal zone. Soybean can be grown in deforested areas, sugar cane cannot. There was a rainforest in that region, and it got deforested to plant sugar cane. You can blame our former masters, the 15th to 18th century portuguese overlords. But quit relaying the "they are killing amazon forest to produce ethanol" bullshit, that's pure FUD.

    6. Re:Correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Much of the fuel that Europeans use will be imported from Brazil, where the Amazon is being burned to plant more sugar and soybeans, and Southeast Asia, where oil palm plantations are destroying the rainforest habitat of orangutans and many other species.

      Except that the Amazon area is not good for either. Way to go, fact-checkers!

      The Amazon is incredibly humid. Sugar cane grows in dry areas.

  26. How many calories can we grow? by G4from128k · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Think about the total amount of food grown and the land used to grow food. The average person eats about 2000-2500 kCal per day in food. The average person consumes about 36,000 kCal per day worth of oil (just oil, not including coal, nat gas, etc.).

    Is the Earth big enough to provide 15-20 times the current food production level of biofuel-grade plant material? And if we plant more energy crops won't we be planting less food crops?

    The US will be fine, but any one who eats food grown on land that could be used to grow an energy crop will see higher food prices.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:How many calories can we grow? by Orion_II · · Score: 0
      Well, the unique thing about biodiesel is that you don't actually need to use fresh crops; you can actually use waste vegeteble oil:

      As of 2000, the United States was producing in excess of 11 billion liters of waste vegetable oil annually, mainly from industrial deep fryers in potato processing plants, snack food factories and fast food restaurants. If all those 11 billion liters could be collected and used to replace the energetically equivalent amount of petroleum (a rather utopian case), almost 1% of US oil consumption could be offset.[citation needed] However, usage of waste vegetable oil as a fuel competes with already established usages. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_vegetable_oil#W aste_vegetable_oil
    2. Re:How many calories can we grow? by NuShrike · · Score: 1

      Biofuels are a cute gimmick in the small scale, but once you scale it up, it's going to be very, very expensive. Do we have enough land to grow it?

      There's no way it can suppliment our current consumption needs, and where is the water going to come from to grow it? We lack enough drinking water for everybody as is.

    3. Re:How many calories can we grow? by afidel · · Score: 1

      I ran the calculations a couple years ago and based on an average solar insolation rate of 5kwHr/day/m^2 for the the bands where the majority of the arable landmass is, and the 1.3 × 10^13 m^2 of arable land we get 6.5x10^13*365 or 2.37x10^16kwHr/year or 2.37x10^14MwHr per year. US demand was 3.3x10^12MwHr/year in 1999. The world has about 20x the population of the US, so worldwide demand if everyone lived like the US and population is steady would be 6.6x10^13, or about one fifth of the total insolation on arable land. That means we need better than 20% efficiency from sunlight to usable energy to maintain the world at current US consumptions rates. That is just not possible and proves that our way of life is NOT sustainable in the long run without drastic reductions in energy use or population.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    4. Re:How many calories can we grow? by stud9920 · · Score: 1

      Suppose we had enough food (with enough logistics and no corruption) to feed the planet. What do you think people no longer starving would do ? They would just breed a couple more kids until food reserves are overspent again, as do more well off families in the West.

      There is no fundamental difference between the First World spending more fuel than it can afford, and the Third World breeding more people than it can afford. And I have stopped long time ago to believe that having the First World finance the future Third World's starvation is the way to go. The only fixable problems of the Third World should be solved not with unsustainable developement but with better organisation and ending corruption (which is what we should do in the First World too).

    5. Re:How many calories can we grow? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Suppose we had enough food (with enough logistics and no corruption) to feed the planet. What do you think people no longer starving would do ? They would just breed a couple more kids until food reserves are overspent again, as do more well off families in the West.

      This isn't what we see in developed world countries. Most of them have negative growth rates among the native population. I don't see why people keep using the Malthusian model even when it clearly fails.
    6. Re:How many calories can we grow? by stud9920 · · Score: 1

      I see two things happening in the West.

      1. Most people are educated AND materialistic. As food is not an issue here, they could easily choose (remember we have birth control) to have twenty kids per couple and let them leave a simple life, but as we are educated and know about exponential growth we don't, and as we are materialistic, we know we have to choose between TVs, computers, two cars and a 200m home and the 20 kids, so we choose the former, and have 1.5 kids per couple.

      2. A few people are more well-off (this could be described as earning more than one must spend and spare, so to include less rich people who value kids more than stuff) and will breed at rates not very high (because of the materialism) but still higher than sustainability rate. I grant you that the overall rate is still rather low ( 2.1), eventhough it is going up. The fact remains they are not contributing positively to relieve the overpopulation problem.

    7. Re:How many calories can we grow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do we have enough land to grow it? Two words: hemp and hydroponics

      No farmland needed. Hell, you could produce more in a large building in the middle of a city than several corn fields.

      We lack enough drinking water for everybody as is. Waste water and desalination.
    8. Re:How many calories can we grow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, easily.

      First, consider that the US government pays farmers to *not* grow things. We're not exactly near max production capacity now.

      Second, most people in the US eat meat; this is a horrendously inefficient way to get energy. Most of the US's crops are used to feed animals. That is, the arable land we're using is being put to inefficient use. (Would people rather insist on eating dead animal flesh, or driving an oversized SUV to Starbucks? I don't know, but I suspect the SUV will win.)

      Third, we're coming up with new technologies all the time. We're both making it more efficient to grow things we already are, and we're coming up with entirely new ways to make biofuels, like the much-hoped-for algae process. With hydroponics, we can plant things in places that aren't traditionally considered "arable land".

      Fourth, you say "biofuel-grade plant material" as if it's an especially high standard. It's not. We're not talking weapons-grade plutonium here. Some people filter used restaurant grease to put into their diesel cars -- it's not common (or necessarily recommended), but it goes to show what we can work with.

      Energy from biomass is just a handy renewable way to collect and distribute solar energy. There is a limit to how much use we can put the sun's rays to, but we're nowhere near that limit today.

    9. Re:How many calories can we grow? by khallow · · Score: 1

      2. A few people are more well-off (this could be described as earning more than one must spend and spare, so to include less rich people who value kids more than stuff) and will breed at rates not very high (because of the materialism) but still higher than sustainability rate. I grant you that the overall rate is still rather low ( 2.1), eventhough it is going up. The fact remains they are not contributing positively to relieve the overpopulation problem.

      BTW, you're talking about the US not Japan or the EU. And given that virtually all of the population growth (aside from immigration) is in the rest of the world, this talk of "contributing to the problem" isn't useful. If there is a die off of people, it'll affect almost exclusively the very groups that are still growing fast. Besides I think most of the population growth from the wealthy set is through males having lots of progeny with several women.

    10. Re:How many calories can we grow? by NuShrike · · Score: 1

      Good points.

      Hower, the problem is growing that much stuff is still a net energy loss unless you really don't use any chemical (read oil-based) fertilizers. I also ponder where the energy is going come from for processing waste water, or to desalinate it.

      Afterall, the point is to produce fuel that has zero to neutral environmental impact, and still be a positive source of energy.

      Instead of going through the whole wasteful process of using plants to convert solar energy into biomatter to burn in an inefficient combustion process, why not directly convert it into electricity using those Stirling-engine solar collectors. Then use it it to grid power mass transit trains, or even battery powered cars. It's been calculated you can get much more usable power from using that corn land for solar collectors instead.

  27. A Solution by illuminatedwax · · Score: 1

    Why don't we just switch to using cane sugar for our food and have the farmers sell all that excess corn for biofuel? It might make us a little less fat, too.

    --
    Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
    1. Re:A Solution by atomicstrawberry · · Score: 1

      Australia uses only cane sugar for processed goods, yet the obesity rate is growing at practically the same rate here as the US. Cane sugar is just as bad for that. The only real benefit to switching relates to the studies that have shown correlation between HFCS and heart disease.

    2. Re:A Solution by illuminatedwax · · Score: 1

      It's really hard to tell if HFCS has any real effect, so maybe it might not have an effect. But it would get rid of some of the crazy things we do to protect corn farmers, like tariffs etc.

      --
      Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
    3. Re:A Solution by afidel · · Score: 1

      Because sugar cane doesn't grow well or at all in the majority of temperate climates where corn is currently grown in the US. Of course I'm hoping that with corn being used for energy the high cost of high fructose corn syrup will go up so much that the food industry will lobby congress to drop the sugar cane import tariffs and we can go back to using the healthy stuff.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  28. This isn't coming from Fidel by beeblebrox · · Score: 0, Troll

    It's Fidelito that's getting mildly concerned. He's a one-trick (crude) pony.

  29. The last horse crosses the finish line. by jonbritton · · Score: 1

    Have people been suggesting corn as a source for biofuels, and I'm not aware of it? I thought we had all pretty much agreed long ago that cornoil-based biodiesel is cute for demonstrations involving frenchfry buses and wowing people into supporting the cause, but any serious implementation would depend upon algae farms, or at least one of the more prolific oil producing plants (industrial hemp, for example.)

    Maybe I'm out of the loop.

    1. Re:The last horse crosses the finish line. by thorkyl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      flame me if you will....

      You may joke about the "demonstrations" all you like.
      me -->

      89 F-350 super crew
      7.3 liter
      B-100 for the last 20,000 miles
      Get 15% more HP
      Get 20% more torque
      Petro Diesel is currently $2.71 per gallon where I live
      I can buy B-100 for $2.50
      I make it for $1.21 per gallon
      I use no fossil fuels in its production.
      I use only the oil itself to render the oil (oil feed heater)

      All it takes is the gumption to do it and the willingness to tell big oil where to shove it.

      As for the crop on my farm, they are not for sale to the government as subsidies.
      Nor do I sell to anyone that is not local.

      So no whining about the lack of food, grow your own and stop buying from big business

      --
      -- I am the NRA, enough said...
  30. Check out Stephen Gaghan's Cerealana by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The truth is that we are past peak corn. People are fighting and dying to preserve the Capt Crunch conspiracy.

    Wake up, people!

  31. Future Energies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real answer is, use a range of energy technologies to solve the problem. Take a look at FutureEnergies.co.uk or the guys at Green MotorSport

    1. Re:Future Energies by khallow · · Score: 1

      Well, it definitely isn't growing corn, a crop that is a net energy and carbon loser when converted directly into ethanol.

  32. Re:Ethanol's real name - BULLSHIT!!!! by mangu · · Score: 2, Insightful
    We already use all the arable land on this planet to feed ourselves and the beef we eat


    I see, so *everybody* who is born from now on will starve to death, right? Because we have absolutely no arable land left to feed anyone...

  33. Welcome to Presidential politics by jfengel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's called "Iowa". Eliminate the Iowa caucuses as the "first in the nation" that every Presidential candidate must suck up to (and convince his party to suck up to) and you'll never hear about corn-based ethanol ever again.

    1. Re:Welcome to Presidential politics by grammar+fascist · · Score: 1

      So instead, we'll have Wisconsin first, and they'll have to suck up to them first. For a year leading up to the caucuses we'll hear no end of... whatever the crap it is they make in Wisconsin. Cheese? Beer?

      --
      I got my Linux laptop at System76.
    2. Re:Welcome to Presidential politics by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      It's called "Iowa". Eliminate the Iowa caucuses as the "first in the nation" that every Presidential candidate must suck up to (and convince his party to suck up to) and you'll never hear about corn-based ethanol ever again.

      You'd have to get rid of agribusiness in the U.S., also. ADM and Monsanto each have a stake in the GMO corn business, for example.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    3. Re:Welcome to Presidential politics by HungWeiLo · · Score: 1

      The corn lobby is so ridiculously powerful that Iowa is no longer self-sufficient in food production. Iowa, the breadbasket of the U.S., actually has to import food now that a majority of farm capacity has been dedicated to corn production.

      --
      There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
    4. Re:Welcome to Presidential politics by jdschulteis · · Score: 1

      Award-winning Wisconsin cheeses and beers (1, 2, 3) certainly aren't crap.

      In addition to cheese, Wisconsin is the leading state in the production of paper products.

      You'd also still probably be hearing about ethanol too, though--Wisconsin is ranked 7th and rising in ethanol production.

    5. Re:Welcome to Presidential politics by adrianmonk · · Score: 1

      It's called "Iowa". Eliminate the Iowa caucuses as the "first in the nation" that every Presidential candidate must suck up to (and convince his party to suck up to) and you'll never hear about corn-based ethanol ever again.

      Actually, apparently the corn-based ethanol thing has already been gaining really significant momentum for at least 6 months, before the recent campaigning started. Here's an article about it. The price of corn has essentially doubled in less than a year, and farmers are seeing such huge increases in profits that they are calling it the "dot corn boom". (When profit margins are razor thin, and then revenue doubles, profits can go up an order of magnitude.) John Deere has apparently completely sold out of tractors and combines.

      What's more, according to the article I mentioned, the market seems to be betting that this drastic price increases will continue, because apparently corn futures contracts are allowing sellers to lock in high prices for years in the future. If the market thought this ethanol-driven increase in corn prices was just a temporary aberration, people wouldn't be agreeing to pay nearly double last year's price for several years in the future.

      So, while I don't disagree that Iowa has a strange position politically, I think the corn-based ethanol thing has a reality outside of political campaigning.

    6. Re:Welcome to Presidential politics by 93,000 · · Score: 1

      I work for an ag financing company (as a nerd, not in financing), and it does make for an interesting situation. While many farmers stand to do well, it's not necessarily the free ride people are making it out to be. Yes, revenue doubles when the prices double, but input costs correct themselves very quickly. Look at the trend in seed costs, fertalizer costs, . . .

      2007 will be a big year profit wise for those who raise a good crop, but by the next year things will have corrected enough that margins will return to normal. As one customer said -- "I'm excited about corn prices, but so is my landlord."

      Another issue is the capitalization required for corn. Corn has a much higher yield than other crops (I'm guessing around 3X), so where you used to need 10 bins you now need 30, where one truck/combine used to do the job you now need three -- thus the John Deere situation you mentioned. The people who see dollar signs and go out and buy everything they need to jump on the corn bandwagon will find themselves in a tough spot if it goes back down to $1.90/bu. That's what happened in the '80's -- many thought the high wheat prices were the 'new paradigm' (a phrase which has been used again with the corn situation -- insert Poochy Simpsons reference here) and would last forever. Prices went up, they bought a ton of land and equipment, prices went down, and they could no longer afford their payments and lost it all.

      The good news is that most of the people farming today were around in the 1980's and remember how it happened. The smart ones are optomistic, but very cautiously so.

  34. Good question by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    Diesels perform better (in mpg) or about the same as gas hybrids. I have a diesel Toyota LiteAce van that does approx 34 mpg (the gas equivalent does about 21mpg). Diesels really like to run at an even speed which should make them suite suited to use in a hybrid scenario.

    I expect the real reason is that diesel is perceived to be "dirty" and hybrids want to be seen as "clean".Perhaps is is more a marketing issue than anything else.

    Stirlings are very interesting. I have two model sirlings. They are very effective for some applications but tend to be pretty heavy for the power they produce making them less than ideal for automotive applications.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  35. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by iminplaya · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not everywhere is like the land of the plenty were the supermarkets are stocked with food.

    Yeah, well it would be if everybody would stop shooting at each other for a second.

    --
    What?
  36. Scam by GeoSanDiego · · Score: 1

    I think that some of the best evidence that corn ethanol is a big wasteful takpayer subsidized scam is that the plants that are being built to convert the corn to ethanol are all powered by fossil fuels.

  37. Btw, if anyone wants the direct link by vivaoporto · · Score: 1

    The editorial, straight from cuba.cu website. In spanish, of course, but at least the exact words, without anything lost in translation.

  38. 3 billion starve to death? by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

    If only... If we halved the population, the global ecology might have half a chance at rebounding before the current Mass Extinction Event claims too many species.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  39. Three *Billion* deaths? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fidel Castro:

    Great humanitarian.
     
    Not much of a mathematician.

  40. starch ethanol vs. cellulosic ethanol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Shouldn't be surprised here, but no one seems to have read the article at all. His point isn't that getting ethanol from corn is going to be abandoned in favor of algae sugars or biodiesel , but that getting ethanol from corn sugar isn't going to work out, getting it from cellulose is the way to go in his mind. As several have pointed out ethanol from corn sugar is a very minor improvement, giving a small boost (on the order of 10%) over gasoline in terms of carbon emmission/mile or however you want to spin it. If a cellulosic process can be made to work this changes A LOT. And it applies equally well to sugar cane cellulose, so all you sugar fans can be happy. The goal here is to take material (stalks, leaves and the like) that would otherwise be discarded or burned and turn it into fuel. Corn is a good candidate for that because it can be grown pretty densely, and the yield of food to overall biomass is pretty small.

    -sk

  41. Electric to rotational is inefficient? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    I know that you can't be 100% efficient, but 95+% is too low?

    95% efficiency in changing the rotational energy of the motor to electricity followed by 95% efficiency back to rotational at the wheels would be 90% efficient. The diesel engine only wishes it was so efficient. Add in that the diesel can be run in it's optiomal RPM range 100% of the time and you get a few more percentage points.

    90% is better than many areas. Oh, and that's for a premium efficiency 250hp motor, I'd imagine that a train engine would be even bigger, and they increase in efficiency by size.

    But, yeah, given the expense and weight for the transmission/differentials for a train gearbox; the series method makes sense. In many ways you could consider it an electric transmission.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Electric to rotational is inefficient? by bobscealy · · Score: 1
      It also isnt only RPM that is important, it is load. A train spends most of its time at constant heavy load, and as noted on your link

      Since motors run most efficiently near their designed power rating, it is good practice to operate between 75 percent and 100 percent of full load rating.

      Cars run over a much wider load range, and typically operated at between 20 and 40 percent of max load. That means you either have to have the motor/generator combo running at low load as well during these times, or you have a lower power setup running at full load to match the average energy requirements, and need a heavy (though they are getting better) battery bank with its associated inefficiencies to compensate.

      You are right though, the series setup in a train can be nicely thought of as an electric transmission.

  42. um by misey · · Score: 1

    what about hemp as a solution? you can get a lot more ethanol out of hemp

  43. I hope they take this decision seriously by artwork · · Score: 1

    I come from a country that has a lot of poor people. I can't imagine corn and sugar being used to run cars instead of feeding starving people. I'm glad the DoE pointed this out. Vinod Khosla and all the other entrepreneurs that have invested in this better take note and stop pushing their agenda.

    1. Re:I hope they take this decision seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More food is produced on earth each year than is needed to feed everyone. The problem is distribution. In many poor countries corrupt governments siphon it away to sell, or in others with weak governments warlords get a hold of it instead of the people it is intended for. Using corn and sugar for fuel isn't the cause of people starving. They aren't great things to use as fuel either, but that's a separate matter entirely.

  44. Good for them by alphamugwump · · Score: 1

    Good for them. I'm glad they realized that corn isn't viable from an energy standpoint. The article mentions cellulose ethanol too, but when I researched it for debate, there really wasn't much material on the subject. It's definitely still far in the future, if it it viable at all.

    Sure, you can fool around with fuel economy standards, and maybe save 20% if you're lucky. Sure, you can use ethanol, which takes almost as much energy to grow as you get out. No, the real solution is to give up those cars. Even the tiniest british cars have way worse efficiency (in people miles per gallon) compared to a full coach bus. If they really wanted to save energy, they'd make mass transit mandatory.

    Of course, that isn't going to happen, but unlike most scenarios, it /would/ actually work.

    1. Re:Good for them by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The article mentions cellulose ethanol too, but when I researched it for debate, there really wasn't much material on the subject.

      A bit over a month ago Australia's ABC Radio Science Show interviewed some people in the north of the USA that were making and selling ethanol from cellose in a medium sized pilot plant. I don't have any more details unfortunately and the podcast has most likely gone by now.

  45. Re:um - hemp by vik · · Score: 1

    Yes, but sadly religious extremism beats common sense. It's wonderful stuff, would fix the problem nicely, and wouldn't result in hordes of drug-fueled zombies. But it's not going to get through congress. It'll have to be left to a more enlightened country to threaten the US economy with hemp-based biofuel before the congress-critters do anything about it.

    Vik :v)

  46. Do corn farmers use corn fuel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have read, right here on Slashdot, that corn farmers do not run their tractors and other farm equipment on corn alcohol; they buy petroleum fuels, and sell the corn.

    If so, that seems like pretty clear evidence that corn fuels don't make economic sense. If corn fuel is not a better deal even for the farmers who grow the corn in the first place, how can it possibly be a better deal for anyone else?

    Note that Brazil uses sugar cane, which is better than corn for fuel, but still is not perfect...

  47. Who collects? by steelbr2 · · Score: 1

    If I/you can grow my/your own fuel who would profit?

  48. Trade water for petroleum? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Algae, in the desert? Seems like the water consumption would be a big problem; we're already terribly short of water in former-desert areas that have been converted to agriculture as it is. I'm not sure that swapping petroleum shortages for water shortages is really a great plan. I suppose it fixes some of the foreign-policy issues associated with petrodollars flowing to the Middle East, but it still puts us in a precarious position.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:Trade water for petroleum? by iminplaya · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pump it in from the ocean. Or, as I said in the original, grow it in the ocean. Also, we now know that transportation of fresh water(or anything else) no longer really has any technical issues. Inadequate distribution of all our resources is strictly economic and/or political in nature.

      --
      What?
    2. Re:Trade water for petroleum? by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      Isn't the ocean already occupied? Pumping the water inland seems like the better idea, if you can ensure that the salt concentration doesn't get too high.

    3. Re:Trade water for petroleum? by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      The algae grows on the surface, and the space we need is infinitesimally small. If we're going to pump it inland, then we may as well harvest the fresh rain water that constantly falls on the ocean. Big savings there.

      --
      What?
  49. Not so wonderful by Animats · · Score: 1

    Oh, the hemp guys again. Funny how they're never into the other coarse-fibre plants, like jute (used to make burlap), sisal (used to make twine), bagasse (leftover sugar cane, sometimes used to make wallboard) and kenaf (sometimes used to make paper).

    1. Re:Not so wonderful by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Either one is probably great for many uses, but hemp has the advantage that it's ridiculously easy to grow. It is a weed, after all.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    2. Re:Not so wonderful by rhakka · · Score: 1

      strange that none of those particular plants were hailed as the first billion dollar cash crop by popular science, back before hemp was made illegal.

      I'm not saying they aren't useful, I'm simply saying that perhaps the free market knew something about hemp you don't. Just maybe something like how versatile and useful it is, and how easily processed with the machinery they had developed.

      You just named four plants that all do small parts of what hemp can do. Is that supposed to be exciting?

  50. A Modest Proposal... by Kadin2048 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Obviously, we just need some way of bypassing the middle man in all this, and converting poor people directly into fuel!

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  51. pond scum is where it's at by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it appears that pond scum is one of the most efficient methods of producing fuel. of coarse with capitalism the best technology doesn't always win, that is why i'm running for dictator of the whole world.

  52. Subsidies stink by Dan+Stephans+II · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The corn based ethanol craze is founded in subsidies, not practicality. I grew up on a farm in southeastern Minnesota and came to loathe subsidies, PIC setaside acres, furloughs, etc. All kinds of ways to make money to do nothing that didn't benefit the family farm (which ours was) but ultimately lined the pockets of corporate farmers with lobby interests.

    When I went to college (in Morris, Minnesota) there was an ethanol plant in town and I researched ethanol production just to provide some context to the awful smell (think rotting sileage) that hit my apartment complex when the wind was right. Even back in 1990 there was little justification to use ethanol because of the high energy use for production, the increased end-unit costs because of the need to blend at the POS (because ethanol absorbs water it needs to be mixed into the blend near the end delivery point) and the other implications for vehicles (reduced power/volume, injection issues, etc). The investment that the government has made has been misplaced. It purely subsidizes this waste instead of promoting the development of more efficient production/end product. The plant in Morris is still producing the exact same product in the exact same way, the only difference is now (16 years later) they are making money hand over fist.

    Finally, corn requires a tremendous amount of water to grow. When we grew corn we didn't irrigate but big corporate farms cannot resist. The Oglalla aquifer is draining, which is a big deal. Irrigation for crops of all sorts are the primary culprit but the impact is larger -- most of the 'breadbasket' of the US is dependent in many ways on the viability of the Oglalla aquifer.

    I am stunned and pleased that the DOE has stepped up and stated what should be the obvious. I hope that people following the stories realize that subsidies without measurable and definable goals have no place in our "free trade" economy (tongue in cheek there).

    1. Re:Subsidies stink by Shag · · Score: 1

      The corn based ethanol craze is founded in subsidies, not practicality.

      Yep. I sometimes work with folks from a sustainability think-tank in Winnipeg, and the Globe and Mail (a newspaper somewhere in Canada) just ran an op-ed piece by its president, pointing out that (among other problems) the US government spends $500 in corn-based ethanol subsidies to reduce CO2 emissions by 1 metric tonne, while on the Chicago Climate Exchange (US-based, obviously, and market-driven, which I thought the Bushies liked?) that $500 would buy more than 30 metric tonnes of carbon offsets.

      Just doesn't seem like a good deal. Must be that new math again...

      --
      Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
  53. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by h2_plus_O · · Score: 5, Informative

    I don't think jobs are the problem, but the supply of food.
    Actually, famine nowadays is rarely a function of food supply alone. per Wiki:

    Modern famines have often occurred in nations that, as a whole, were not initially suffering a shortage of food. The largest famine ever (proportional to the affected population) was the Irish Potato Famine, which began in 1845 and occurred as food was being shipped from Ireland to England because the English could afford to pay higher prices. The largest famine ever (in absolute terms) was the Chinese famine of 1959-60 that occurred as a result of the Great Leap Forward. In a similar manner, the 1973 famine in Ethiopia was concentrated in the Wollo region, although food was being shipped out of Wollo to the capital city of Addis Ababa where it could command higher prices. In contrast, at the same time that the citizens of the dictatorships of Ethiopia and Sudan had massive famines in the late-1970s and early-1980s, the democracies of Botswana and Zimbabwe avoided them, despite having worse drops in national food production.
    According to Nobel-peace prize winning economist Amartya Sen quoted here, there is without exception a political component involved that allows the food shortage to progress beyond food insecurity:

    I have discussed elsewhere the remarkable fact that, in the terrible history of famines in the world, no substantial famine has ever occurred in any independent and democratic country with a relatively free press. We cannot find exceptions to this rule, no matter where we look: the recent famines of Ethiopia, Somalia, or other dictatorial regimes; famines in the Soviet Union in the 1930s; China's 1958-61 famine with the failure of the Great Leap Forward; or earlier still, the famines in Ireland or India under alien rule. China, although it was in many ways doing much better economically than India, still managed (unlike India) to have a famine, indeed the largest recorded famine in world history: Nearly 30 million people died in the famine of 1958-61, while faulty governmental policies remained uncorrected for three full years.
    --
    If there's one thing I won't stand for, it's intolerance.
  54. ethanol from sugar cane by neomagi · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually making ethanol from sugar cane is more than 6x more efficient than corn. it actually has a huge net gain in fuel. the factories in Brazil do an amazing job of creating power both to power the plants that make the ethanol as well as for the general public.

    several of the sugar plantations in the states are considering this as well, since it is so much more effective.

    1. Re:ethanol from sugar cane by catalina · · Score: 1

      ...making ethanol from sugar cane...

      What if it turns out that it's more efficient to produce ethanol from, oh, let's say hemp......or certain other highly over-valued weeds....

    2. Re:ethanol from sugar cane by bytesex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What if it turns out that it's more efficient to produce ethanol from, oh, let's say hemp......or certain other highly over-valued weeds....

      Do you have _any_ idea of how ethanol production works, and why we're not all drinking distillates from hemp ? If you do - nice troll - otherwise, let me start an explanation: it's about S.U.G.A.R.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    3. Re:ethanol from sugar cane by indifferent+children · · Score: 2, Informative
      What if it turns out that it's more efficient to produce ethanol from, oh, let's say hemp

      Ethanol requires sugar. Hemp produces seed-oil that is very good for biodiesel, but not for ethanol.

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    4. Re:ethanol from sugar cane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have _any_ idea of how ethanol production works, and why we're not all drinking distillates from hemp ? If you do - nice troll - otherwise, let me start an explanation: it's about S.U.G.A.R.

      That's pretty stupid, given that Mark Holtzapple's group at Texas A&M have a process that can essentially turn ANY biodegradable mass into a mixture of alcohols with much higher energy density than ethanol.

      (He also has completed the first half of a prototype motor that acheives above 70% thermodynamic efficiency. Not bad.)

    5. Re:ethanol from sugar cane by HotBBQ · · Score: 1

      Shhhhhhhhh.....the corn lobby will rip out your innards and make you a scarecrow if you keep talking like that.

    6. Re:ethanol from sugar cane by mfrank · · Score: 1

      Most of the gain probably comes from the fact that sugar cane converts about 8% of solar energy to sugars, while corn is only 2%. However, when they get the cellulose conversion figured out, that's when things can get interesting. Maybe one day we'll be able to convert cellulose to alcohol as well as termites do.

  55. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by Marcos+Eliziario · · Score: 1

    You're correct. Most episodes of famine in Africa over the last, say, 30 years, were the direct result of armed conflicts, ethnical genocide and force migrations (our african dictator friend's version of Hitler's final solution). Take for example Ethiopia, there's plenty of water and soil there, still, after the conflicts caused by their incompetent socialist rulers, they underwent the dramatic famine we all witnessed in the 80's.

    --
    Your ad could be here!
  56. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by x2A · · Score: 1

    Is a shame that jokes are being wasted on slashdot, when there are 3 billion other people in the world who aren't laughing. We're suffering as serious sense of humour shortage here, maybe ethanol is the answer?

    --
    The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
  57. Bus transportion by jhines · · Score: 1

    A hybrid would work very good in a city bus, with the stop and go action, if it has regenerative braking. Another advantage, at least where weather is a problem, is the ability to keep the engine running while stopped, so the heat and air keep working.

  58. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You mean Detroit and DC don't have food on the shelves?

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  59. DOE is Correct by cephal0p0d · · Score: 2, Informative
    Future of biofuels, both diesel and gas replacements, is in random biomass conversion.
    Future conversion processes will most likely involve bioengineered bacteria and similar processes to create biofuel from any biomass available, from foodstock leftovers to waste products to... corpses.

    Sugary and cellulosic biomass is best for eth.

    - Switchgrass

    - Sawdust

    - Beets, etc

    Oily biomass is best for biodiesel.

    - Vegetable oils, such as soy, hemp, rapeseed, etc. whether pre-or post consumer (these still leave the seed itself as feedstock after oils are extracted.)

    - Tallow/animal fats

    - Algae

    Ton of Reference materials halfway down this page:

    http://squidb0i.livejournal.com/profile

    As for corpses:

    http://squidb0i.livejournal.com/114822.html

    --


    ~!J!
  60. Cellulosic ethanol is the way to go. by Stickerboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Cellulosic ethanol is a proven technology, the only issue now is ramping it up to industrial scale. Iogen and SunOpta (both Canadian biotech companies) have already built pilot plants, and are selecting sites to build industrial scale plants (In Iogen's case, they're contemplating offers from the US, Canada, and European countries to host the plant, which would produce 50 million+ gallons of ethanol a year.)

    The great thing about sugarcane and cellulosic ethanol production is they don't require outside power to run, unlike corn ethanol plants. They take a byproduct of the production process and use it for fuel.

    --
    Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
  61. A Iowan perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a native Iowan, and as someone who has grown up on a rural farm, I am surprised at the vast dismissal of ethanol based fuel here.
    It may not be perfect, but nothing is. Its a hell of a lot better than traditional based fuel. I've been using it in my car for years. I don't use anything but ethanol. It's the only alternative fuel choice we have in the midwest.

    Whatever the government is saying, Ethanol IS big business. Ethanol plants are increasing in number and are receiving a lot of money in the form of grants... from SOMEWHERE. I assumed it was our own government, but if they're saying Ethanol is not the future then why are they giving us money?

    The claims that our corn should be spent towards food may be true, it might not be. In either case, it is invalid because our corn doesn't *directly* go towards human consumption..... the corn we grow (at least here in Northwest Iowa) gets used mostly in livestock feed. (We just eat the animals that eat our corn.) Some of our corn does get shipped off to other countries, which I imagine use it for human consumption. But our corn here? For the most part, we're not eating it.
    And, even if we were, huge stores of our crops get wasted every year... growing old and moldy in grain bins and elevators. It doesn't get used. It's not our fault, its the current agriculture system. Why shouldn't the farmer have an alternative to sell his corn to a ethanol plant as a alternative? The farmer gets a choice to sell to a different market... and a more environmentally friendly choice at that.

    I'm all for ethanol and every other alternative choice because there are just too few alternative choices to begin with.

  62. Does this make economic sense? by msblack · · Score: 1

    Has anyone conducted a study to determine the net BTUs from converting corn into ethanol? I mean, it must take an awful lot of energy to clear the fields, plant the seeds, add fertilizer, pump the water, reap the crop, sort the seed from the chafe, distill the usable stuff, dispose of the waste, and voila -- E85. To my thinking, we must use a lot of energy in the process. What's the net?

    It's like saying that electric vehicles don't pollute. Yeah, right. If you assume that generating electricity is completely non-polluting. Recent studies show that E85 might, ahem MIGHT supplant 5% of our foreign oil imports. How much oil will be used in producing that E85?

    --
    signature pending slashdot approval
  63. Lot of misinformation here by slapyslapslap · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Look, corn isn't the most efficient method of producing ethanol by a long shot. But that it takes more energy to produce simply isn't true.

    This used to be true when talking about old inefficient ethanol plants. Today's corn ethanol production sees a net gain in energy. It's roughly a 1:1.3 ratio of BTUs in to BTUs out. These are well substantiated and accepted numbers. That paper put out by Berkley that everyone uses to spout that old myth wasn't accurate. It made a lot of assumptions to the low end of crop production, and efficiency, but high assumptions for fossil fuel based fertilizers and diesel farm equipment. It was set up to make corn ethanol look worse than it was, and quickly moved towards an anti agribusiness bias.

    I realize that 1:1.3 is barely more, but consider that the goal isn't so much to remove our dependence on fossil fuels, but foreign oil. Natual gas and coal are what fire the distilleries, not oil. So essentially, when using corn based ethanol, we are using coal, natual gas, and a little solar energy to fuel our vehicles. I'm OK with that for now. We have a lot of it. Eventually, other better crops will supplement and perhaps replace corn. The distilleries don't really have to do a lot of retrofitting and changing to take new sources of carbohydrate.

    1. Re:Lot of misinformation here by mac84 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with everything you say in the first three paragraphs but your conclusion is where it all falls down. the bottom line is our government is lining up to put mass fortunes into "cultivating" the ethanol industry for a very small 1.3 to 1 return. It doesn't make economic sense. And to waste any more limited financial (especially public money) or intellectual capital on ethanol is wrong. Rather than an earmarked subsidy for ethanol, why not a level playing field subsidy for all alternative energy technologies that show potential to reduce oil imports, or greenhouse gasses or whatever the problem is that we're really trying to solve. Better yet, just tax oil at a higher rate and let the free market find the most efficient alternatives. My guess is that 90% of that solution would be greater conservation.

  64. Hey, dude... by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    Hey dude, you can't burn all the grass to run your cars, what we gonna smoke then?

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  65. Cellulosic Ethanol From Municipal Solid Waste by Mr.+Stinky · · Score: 5, Interesting
    BluefireEthanol has the technology to viably convert cellulosic green waste into ethanol. Lots of green waste ends up at the dump already, these guys will convert it in a cost effective way. Ethanol is not just used as a fuel additive, it can also be used to make plastics and other materials. BlueFire's technology approach is unique because the inputs do not need to be sorted in advance like some biological processes which use specific enzymes for specific inputs. From their website:

    BlueFire Ethanol, Inc. is established to deploy the commercially ready, patented, and proven Arkenol Technology Process for the profitable conversion of cellulosic ("Green Waste") waste materials to ethanol, a viable alternative to gasoline. BlueFire's use of the Arkenol Process Technology positions it as the only cellulose-to-ethanol company worldwide with demonstrated production of ethanol from urban trash (post-sorted MSW), rice and wheat straws, wood waste and other agricultural residues. If there was already a plant in New Orleans (and it survived the hurricane) they could have made tons of ethanol from all of the waste debris that resulted from Katrina. Talk about making lemonade out of lemons!
    --
    Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
  66. Who cares - my gas comes from petroleum by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Seriously - there seems to be plenty of oil still. Maybe even more than was once thought. (Google "north pole oil" for details).

    The unstated point of the whole question of "alternative" fuels probably has something to do with "global warming" (which probably IS happening) and the underlying assumption that we human critters have a gnat's-ass of influence on said warming (which we do - have a gnat's-ass worth of input, i.e. not much.) Google "The Great Global Warming Swindle" for some interesting links.

    You can choose a "side", but think about it a bit first.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    1. Re:Who cares - my gas comes from petroleum by LarsWestergren · · Score: 3, Informative
      You can choose a "side", but think about it a bit first.

      That is indeed good advice. You should know that there has come some rebuttals to "The Great Global Warming Swindle", and at least one person who participated has since come out with a public letter where he explains that he is the one who feels swindled by the makers.

      "As I made clear, both in the
      preliminary discussions, and in the interview itself, I believe that
      global warming is a very serious threat that needs equally serious
      discussion and no one seeing this film could possibly deduce that.

      What we now have is an out-and-out propaganda piece, in which
      there is not even a gesture toward balance or explanation of why
      many of the extended inferences drawn in the film are not widely
      accepted by the scientific community. "


      It is also interested to note how the makers react when a couple of noted scientists try to engage him in debate.
      --

      Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die

    2. Re:Who cares - my gas comes from petroleum by quantaman · · Score: 1

      Seriously - there seems to be plenty of oil still. Maybe even more than was once thought. (Google "north pole oil" for details).


      The unstated point of the whole question of "alternative" fuels probably has something to do with "global warming" (which probably IS happening) and the underlying assumption that we human critters have a gnat's-ass of influence on said warming (which we do - have a gnat's-ass worth of input, i.e. not much.) Google "The Great Global Warming Swindle" for some interesting links.


      You can choose a "side", but think about it a bit first.

      Yeah, either I can believe a handful of scientists hand-picked by a documentary maker. Or I can believe countless numbers of brilliant climatologists who have dedicated their lives to the study of climate, constantly checking their results and critiquing each-others research as is the norm in science.

      Hmmm, that's a tough one. Well maybe all those brilliant scientists are actually doing some big self serving conspiracy, yeah sure scientists are generally known as having a lot more integrity than other fields but it must be them decieving everyone, not the energy companies who clearly have the purest motives!

      I'm sorry for being sarcastic but I find all the global warming conspiracy talk to be irritating. Consider the following:

      1) Name a single instance where a large scientific community has conspired to decieve the public. Science is built on integrity, researchers need to be highly critical of their own results otherwise their reputation suffers (and they care a lot about their reputation), I find it highly unlikely that they would be even willfully ignorant since they simply can't afford to be.

      2) The scientific community HAS spoken, that was part of the idea of the IPCC report on climate change. To show that the scientists studying the climate overwhelmingly support the hypothesis that we are warming up the planet. The thought that there's a conscious conspiracy is ludicrous, even the theory that their all convinced/intimidated by a pro-global warming scientific lobby I find unconvincing given (1).

      3) Now if you accept (2), that all these scientists do genuinely believe in global warming, now the only option left is that they're wrong. Yes, some film-makers, politicians, oil execs, journalists, and a small minority of scientists (many not even climatologists), many who have strong motives to convince people global warming doesn't exists, are right. On the other hand the very smart climatologists, who have dedicated their considerable intellect to studying this issue, are wrong. Maybe between all of them those issues mentioned in the documentary just never occurred to them, someone should probably send them a copy to clear this mess up.

      The fact is we have scientists for a reason, to study stuff, to become experts in a field so they can aid the rest of society with their knowledge in that field. You know that clueless person who always asks you to fix their computer? They think the problem is X, you know the problem is Y, but you just can't convince them. Well we're the clueless person, and the experts are telling us the answer is Y, I don't know about you but I'm gonna trust them on this one because they know a heck of a lot more than me about it.
      --
      I stole this Sig
    3. Re:Who cares - my gas comes from petroleum by perrin5 · · Score: 1

      you could provide links, if you wanted....

      Personally, I'm less interested in global warming than the influence the increased CO2 levels we're causing (this part is incontrovertable fact, btw) is having on the pH of the ocean. We may run out of fish, and CO2 fixing bacteria well before we melt all the ice caps.

      --
      hmmmm?
    4. Re:Who cares - my gas comes from petroleum by greg_barton · · Score: 1

      Google "north pole oil" for details

      What does global warming have to do with painful infections which arise as a result of eczema, infectious Wounds and cuts and boils?
    5. Re:Who cares - my gas comes from petroleum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great! So we will have destroyed the environment of the arctic just as it becomes inhabitable due to global warming caused by all the oil we're using! Hooray!

      Peak oil isn't going to go away just because you steal oil from polar bears, and climate change isn't going away just because you don't believe in it. We're addicted to oil, and the withdrawl is going to be hell.

  67. Corn is good for..... by zoid.com · · Score: 0

    Cornbread...

    1. Re:Corn is good for..... by elucido · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It goes good with cheddar.

  68. waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear Fidel that would only make 3 million people fat and happy what does that cause breading then there would be 6 million starving people.

    3 million people could grow there own damn food if they expect to eat.

  69. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by cbreaker · · Score: 1

    He is ignorant, but you sort of are too if you think that we somehow can only do one thing or the other with corn. The US is practically a wasteland of unused land. More to the point, however, is that there's plenty of food in the world to feed everyone. It's just that not everyone is getting it.

    If you're starving, it's not because they're using corn to power a truck.

    And why the fuck do we care what Castro says? He's a communist dictator, a criminal, and hopefully he'll be dead soon.

    --
    - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
  70. Fidel's Opinion Is So Important by joe_n_bloe · · Score: 0, Troll

    We could airdrop tons of corn on that idiotfuck's country and it wouldn't take him 60 seconds to find a way to complain about it. Meanwhile, I don't think anyone in Cuba is feeling oppressed due to a lack of maize.

  71. You must be smoking something by joe_n_bloe · · Score: 1

    I figure that people burning enough "hemp" don't really care about where auto fuel comes from, or whether they have any fuel for that matter.

  72. Re:One word = LIAR, an arstechnica liar, busted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

    More typical arstechnica forums members online lies, now from this nut StarKruzr (from Jeremy Reimer's disciple, lol, he gets caught in lies like Jeremy Reimer: The ULTIMATE liar, pretending to be some computer expert, yet has no degrees in computer science, nor even A+ or MSCE certs, or years if not decades of professional experience in this field in the trenches), that starts up crap with everyone?

    StarKruzr is not a woman though (but sure is a liar, another Jeremy Reimer/Jay Little (arstechnica morons who operate the same way and get caught everytime) style liar, lol, & like they, got his ass beat in thru his own dishonesties) and starLOSER is from Staten Island NY, and that is him in the photo below and his name's jarett.

    You are such a liar, you just will not stop will you? StarKruzr from Staten Island?? You said it on other forums.

    StarKruzr
    Geek Apprentice
    On your being starkruzr and from Staten Island?
    Posts: 49
    From: Staten Island, NY, USA, Earth, Sol System
    Registered: Jul 2000

    That's from this site -> http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/Forum11/HTML /000009.html

    You're from staten island and being named Jarrett, we already know this is your photo at this point in the url below, and if you note it's name? You see Jarett in that photo name. Again: You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

    http://gallery.r3v3ng.net/albums/BoardyPhotos/jare tt_katey_maria.jpg [r3v3ng.net]

    Though it may come as a shock to you, considering your pud's probably too tiny to see, lol, you probably THINK you are a woman, lol! But, you are a guy, or a liar... lol!

    AND THIS THREAD HERE SHOWS YOU ARE MATCHING AN EMAIL TO YOUR NAME starkruzr, to jarett

    http://www.opacity.us/search.php?q=starkruzr%40sta rkruzr.com&submit=search&where=comments&u=1#result s

    Posted by: Jarett
    Hi guys, Anyone know what her name is? starkruzr@starkruzr.com

    Man, You're a TOTAL liar starLOSER, who's been caught, and the arstechnica member trend and typical pattern continues, lol, BUSTED as a liar.

    Are you proud of this?

    Because if so, do not consider politics as a career. ROTFLMAO!

    If you do, I am talking to the next Richard Nixon, and lol, certainly NOT George Washington ("I cannot tell a lie") lol... except you are chopping down your credibility faster than George Washington could whack down his cherry tree, & your own lies are the axe, lol!

    Man, you are TOO easy to see through & far too easy to prove you are a liar.

    What a waste of time, I am dealing with a total liar! Another dishonorable arstechnica coward, oh well, typical of them!

    "I think it's HILARIOUS to harass YOU online. Just you. Only you." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Friday March 30, @12:21AM (#18539431)

    One who thinks it's cool to harass others online, by putting down others as well who have created decent tools for others to use like myspace & apk's registry tool program, as you see above.

    Yet when asked if he s

  73. grim reality by brer_rabbit · · Score: 1

    anything that uses less fertilizer than corn is good. How much oil is needed by Monsanto and DuPont to produce their fertilizers and corn seeds? It's absurd.

    The oil we think we're taking away by switching to biodiesel will end up being used to produce fertilizers, genetically modified seeds, and similar farming requirements. The end consumer won't notice the swap but will ultimately feel good thinking they're not harming the environment as they're stuck in rush hour traffic sipping on a 32 oz Starbucks beverage in their SUV.

  74. I don't see where the problem is? by edwardpickman · · Score: 1

    I run pretty well on corn liquor so I'm sure cars will run fine. The hardest part is wasting it on the car. Might be a good way to get people to conserve. You got your choice drink it or run your car on it. Might force some people to ride bikes.

  75. Wasting Alcohol = Crime against humanity by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

    "In related news, Fidel Castro is blasting the production of corn fuel as a blatant waste of food that would otherwise feed 3 billion people who will die of hunger." Oh the humanity, forget about food, think of how many drinks it could make. Such a waste of perfectly good alcohol.
    --
    Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  76. Re:Ethanol's real name - BULLSHIT!!!! by JonathanR · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What the GP is saying is that we are fast approaching or have exceeded the sustainable population limits of the planet. You are being deliberately obtuse in suggesting that everyone born from now on will starve to death. There is, however, a growing population base that lives in regions subject to famine. These are the people who will face starvation. The only reason the west has the ability to avoid these conditions is because it also has the political and economic clout enabling imports to cover any shortages. So third world populations are doing the starving for us.

    The reality is that the affluent western lifestyle is unsustainable 90+th percentile standard of living, which cannot be shared at current population levels. This will become particularly obvious when the increasing energy demands of the emerging middle class from China, India et. al. begin to approach supply limits.

    It is unlikely that fossil fuels alone will sustain the next 50 years of projected growth in energy demand, and just as unlikely that adding the (agriculture based, fossil fuel subisidsed) biofuels industry to this will help much either. Something will have to give and unfortuately, in the short term, it will probably be the remaining forrested land area that will be sacrificed. In the long term, expect to see some starvation in the western world too, particularly during extreme drought conditions, as the capacity of normally arable land is adversely limited.

    Perhaps you don't recall what was the Dust Bowl of the 1930's? Be assured that we will see something like it again at some point. Imagine the economic devastation when both food and fuel is dependent on agriculture.

  77. No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No. That's comes after World War II. I wish I was being sarcastic. We spend way too much time talking about the Civil War to leave room for discussing any of those icky parts of history where America might've done something controversial like the Bay of Pigs invasion or the Vietnam War. (At least, that was my experience growing up in a former Confederate state.)

    We're just lucky to get a very small warning about McCarthyism and some coverage of the Civil Rights movement. All US history south of our borders post-Spanish-American War is pretty much not taught in high school -- especially anything critical of our actions during the Cold War. Too much of what is going on today can't be understood if your knowledge of world events pretty much ends at WW2. Why the US's enemies are enemies and why many of our allies who don't share our values at all are allies is pretty much a mystery to the vast majority of the electorate.

    It gets me depressed about the future every time I think about it.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  78. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by vandan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not the supply of food that's the problem. It's the distribution that's letting people starve. There's plenty of supply.

  79. Corn is Great for Fuel! by CompMD · · Score: 1

    My Mercedes turbodiesel runs great on pure corn oil. :)

    1. Re:Corn is Great for Fuel! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And my lung tumors run great on the shit spewed by your Mercedes turbodiesel.

    2. Re:Corn is Great for Fuel! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pity you don't know much about compression ignition it seems...

      That turbodiesel on pure corn oil puts out MUCH cleaner exhaust than some redneck's ford f150 gas pickup truck, and there are a shitload more f150s on rolling around than turbodiesels running on corn oil.

      Its not some guy burning vegetable oil aggravating your lung tumors. Learn a little organic chemistry and thermodynamics.

  80. mmmm Corn by CapsLock343 · · Score: 1

    All this talk about corn is making me hungry. I better eat up quick before its all gone!

  81. So sad. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    It is pathetic how seriously you take the internets. It really is.

    Are your cheeks burning yet? You might not be smart enough to know WHY you should be embarrassed, I'll grant that.

    Poor little boy who never grew up.

    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:So sad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The IP Address is: 76.208.2.84. The host name is:
      adsl-76-208-2-84.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net

      I would also take the internet seriously were I developer like M.R. & APK, because it is where their words in articles go up and programs they write as well. That is the way it is, for people in this field, (computers) who have any sense of pride and decency, which you obviously don't, per the below showing you have no sense of honor whatsoever, being caught lying and stalking/trolling others as well online:

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

      More typical arstechnica forums members online lies, now from this nut StarKruzr (from Jeremy Reimer's disciple, lol, he gets caught in lies like Jeremy Reimer: The ULTIMATE liar, pretending to be some computer expert, yet has no degrees in computer science, nor even A+ or MSCE certs, or years if not decades of professional experience in this field in the trenches), that starts up crap with everyone?

      StarKruzr is not a woman though (but sure is a liar, another Jeremy Reimer/Jay Little (arstechnica morons who operate the same way and get caught everytime) style liar, lol, & like they, got his ass beat in thru his own dishonesties) and starLOSER is from Staten Island NY, and that is him in the photo below and his name's jarett.

      You are such a liar, you just will not stop will you? StarKruzr from Staten Island?? You said it on other forums.

      StarKruzr
      Geek Apprentice
      On your being starkruzr and from Staten Island?
      Posts: 49
      From: Staten Island, NY, USA, Earth, Sol System
      Registered: Jul 2000

      That's from this site -> http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/Forum11/HTML /000009.html

      You're from staten island and being named Jarrett, we already know this is your photo at this point in the url below, and if you note it's name? You see Jarett in that photo name. Again: You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

      http://gallery.r3v3ng.net/albums/BoardyPhotos/jare tt_katey_maria.jpg

      Though it may come as a shock to you, considering your pud's probably too tiny to see, lol, you probably THINK you are a woman, lol! But, you are a guy, or a liar... lol!

      AND THIS THREAD HERE SHOWS YOU ARE MATCHING AN EMAIL TO YOUR NAME starkruzr, to jarett

      http://www.opacity.us/search.php?q=starkruzr%40sta rkruzr.com&submit=search&where=comments&u=1#result s

      Posted by: Jarett
      Hi guys, Anyone know what her name is? starkruzr@starkruzr.com

      Man, You're a TOTAL liar starLOSER, who's been caught, and the arstechnica member trend and typical pattern continues, lol, BUSTED as a liar.

      Are you proud of this?

      Because if so, do not consider politics as a career. ROTFLMAO!

      If you do, I am talking to the next Richard Nixon, and lol, certainly NOT George Washington ("I cannot tell a lie") lol... except you are chopping down your credibility faster than George Washington could whack down his cherry tree, & your own lies are the axe, lol!

      Man, you are TOO easy to see through & far too easy to prove y

  82. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by jawtheshark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Never complain about history classes. Not only is said that "history is written by the victors", but it is heavily culturally based. I'm not talking about propaganda, just about the focus that you get in school. Now, I have read much more about American history on slashdot than I had at school. I, however, got fed the whole creation of the European Union with all its boring treaties and whatnot. Americans probably get that as a summary "The EU was created in as the ECSC in 1951 and evolved (or Intelligently Designed) from there on". My contemporary history consisted mainly of EU blah-blah, and at least I understand my part of the world thanks to it.

    Overlaps are probably in history are the things that happened a real long time ago: pre-historic times, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans. The sole exception would be World War II, which still differs from content. Europeans get the mantra "look how, horrible, horrible, horrible, it was... let's never do that again", Americans get the mantra "Evil Hilter! We, heroes, had to get over there to save the World".

    Geography is the same: we got to learn the name of every country of the world and their capital, plus the internal structure of our own country", you do the same (I hope)... The internal structure is just different ;-) I expect a Frenchman to know about his Departements, a German to know about his Bunderlander and an American to know about his states. I don't know them, because I'm neither. So don't ask me what the capital of Utah is. I don't know... If you're an American, you should though.

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  83. Fidel? by 8ball629 · · Score: 1

    You mean he's still alive?.... huh. Cool.

  84. Because it is ridiculous made up bullshit by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And because the problem with starvation isn't one of not being able to grow enough food, it is one of politics. The nations with massive amounts of starvation are basically all ones with really screwed up governments. Take Zimbabwe. It used to be called "The bread basket of Africa," and was a large net exporter of food. However now due to Mugwabe's extreme mismanagement and tyrannical policies, they are a net importer of food and have starving people.

    We have the technology and the resources to grow plenty of food. The problem is getting it to those that need it. It isn't like you just drop it in a mailbox and send it off, there are real issues to contend with. The opening scene in Blackhawk Down? An accurate portrayal of the kind of thing that really happens.

    If you've got a solution to that, let's here it. If not then please back off of the self-righteous BS ok? The problems of the world are quite not easy to fix.

  85. Networked Effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > There's no such thing as U.S. mandated worldwide embargo....The embargo applies only to American companies

    You forgot to mention that there are U.S. mandated restrictions to foreing companies doing business in the U.S. market if they also do business in cuba

    I should know, my employer (in Spain) was escared out of a contract for a company, because that potential client wanted support in cuba, and we could be dropped by our other U.S. based clients

    1. Re:Networked Effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical cowardly dago's. Just like when you shit your pants and elected some socialist dickwad just because the ragheads told you to. And you're not having Gibraltar back either, so just fuck off and stab a cow or two.

    2. Re:Networked Effect by indifferent+children · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      Typical cowardly dago's.

      Dago's? I thought 'dago' was ignorant-shithead slang for Italians, not ignorant-shithead slang for Spaniards. Maybe I need to brush up on the finer point of shitheadery; do you give private lessons?

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    3. Re:Networked Effect by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      Typical cowardly dago's. Just like when you shit your pants and elected some socialist dickwad just because the ragheads told you to. And you're not having Gibraltar back either, so just fuck off and stab a cow or two. Suuuure, Spain "ellected some socialist dickwad just because the ragheads told" them, not because the conservative dickhead in power lied to them. In some countries being a lying dickhead may not get you re-elected, even if you are conservative.
      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  86. Chevy Volt Hybrid by dave1g · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt

    This car would be the equivalent of a diesel-electric locomotive.

  87. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by aztracker1 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Well, my son just informed me the other day about the U.S. Civil War being all about slavery... funny, I thought that four states separated from the union before Lincoln was even elected, and that many northern new england states had threatened to do the same before the first southern states did, and that it was pretty much agreed upon that those states had the right to do so... Until one of them attempted to clear out a foreign military base... But hey, that's just me.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
  88. Meltdown on gear change by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

    For large motors, it's hard to incorporate discrete gears. On a gear change where the ratios are significantly different, the clutch/transmission would not be able to absorb the energy dissipated unless it's very large. So either the diameter of the clutch plate must be enormous, or the ratios must be very close. Continuously variable gearing is also problematic due to heat dissipation, unless the power conversion is _very_ efficient. Diesel-electric coupling is a pretty good solution for large motors, since no gear changes are needed.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    1. Re:Meltdown on gear change by Eivind · · Score: 1
      You'd not need to have the clutch handle anything other than startup and minor synch, it'd be easy to control the engine so as to do:
      • Put in 1st (1:10000) and have the clutch handle synching. (this brings you to 1mph at 1000rpm)
      • Accelerate using the engine to 2mph (at 2000rpm)
      • Disengage, change to 2nd (at 1:5000)
      • Rev the engine down to 1000rpm.
      • Have the clutch re-engage (should be only minor synching at this point since 1000rpm at 1:5000 gives precisely the same rotational speed as 2000rpm at 1:10000
      So no. It's not true that ratios must be close, or clutch-plates must be enormous. Aslong as the ratios are atleast as close as the area the engine works well under, only minor clutch-action is nessecary when changing gears.

      But yes, gears for handling thousands or tens of thousands of KW at anything between zero and 200mph or so woul be prohibitve. I never stated otherwise. I'm just saying, there's no reason you'd need 1:10000 1:9999 1:9998 and so on. It's bad -- but it's not THAT bad.

    2. Re:Meltdown on gear change by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      In further support of your point, trains don't start up all at once. There's some slack in the coupling between each car. The engine starts up, jerks the second car into motion, which jerks the third car into motion, and so on. A clutch should only have to slip while the engine starts moving.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  89. Corn based fuel is not the future. by boltik · · Score: 0
  90. I'm sick of the food arguement. by elucido · · Score: 1

    The food arguement makes no sense. Why is corn suddenly the most important food, as if we can only eat corn and drink corn syrup?

    That's ridiculous. In fact, we have so much corn that theres corn syrup in everything, and this Fidel is telling us we should put more corn syrup in our food? Fidel can drink his coke, his pepsi, and enjoy his corn syrup. I'd prefer that stuff in my car, or fueling our economy.

    3 billion people won't starve, we have no shortage of food, never had a shortage of food, we have shortages of clean water and education but free food is everywhere.So this arguement that we need our corn syrup, for the sake of starving children, I think is utterly ridiculous, it's like telling us we need junk food in the school cafeterias, because our kids would starve if they didnt have their daily supply of junkfood. Corn is the primary ingredient in all junk foods.

    1. Re:I'm sick of the food arguement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that was an idiotic response.. corn is a BASE grain that is used for many products that enter the food supply!!!

      Ethanol also DECREASES gasolne efficiency, Petroleum is the most efficient gas right now, when something comes along that surpasses that efficiency the Free Market will switch.

      http://www.agriculture.com/ag/story.jhtml?storyid= /templatedata/ag/story/data/1173795045162.xml&catr ef=ag1001

  91. I don't think it matters, I think corn is the way by elucido · · Score: 1

    I think corn is the best choice to fuel our cars. It's the best choice because corn syrup and all those corn products, are designed for cars, not people. These products were made in a lab, why don't we just start drinking gasoline and then complain that all our food has gas in it and we can't disrupt that?

    I think it would be better for the markets and for our health to make corn into fuel, and bring sugar back as a sweetener. I don't think the food industry depends on corn. The food industry goes in whichever direction is cheapest, because they just want sales. They'd sell piss if it were cheaper than cornsyrup and sweeter. The point is, if the prices of corn goes up, the food industry will either go back to sugar, or invent something else. The farmers would benefit the most because if the price of corn syrup goes up, it helps the farmers. If the price of sugar goes up, it helps the farmers. If the food industry thinks it's too expensive then they'll stop using sugar and corn syrup and use some of the alternative sweetners. So it would be diet coke instead of coke, so what?

  92. Why would we get it from Brazil? by elucido · · Score: 1

    The US is the #1 country for corn crops, we should use our excess corn to create fuel. Why do you want to pay more to get it from Brazil? And what exactly are we going to do with the excess corn if we don't use it as fuel?

  93. Why do we HAVE to use corn for food? by elucido · · Score: 1

    Can anyone give me a valid reason why we MUST eat corn?
    Why should the corn industry care how we consume it as long as we buy it and keep paying higher prices for it?

    I'd think ethanol is better for the corn industry. Why? Because more people would be buying corn. The alternative, is to just put corn syrup in drinking water and force everyone to drink it.

    Which do you prefer?

    I'd prefer we put it in our cars. I'm not concerned about American eating habits, we have shitty eating habits to begin with. We should focus more on how we can turn our excess foods into cash. If we can turn corn into cash, thats perfect. I don't care what we do with it, I don't care if we turn it into syrup and put it into our cars instead of our bodies, what difference does it make to you and me where the fuel is used or how it's used? If we own corn stock what difference does it make to us how the stock rises or falls?

    I honestly could care less as long as the corn becomes the cash. So the first thing we have to get rid of, is this irrational food fetishism, where we think we must eat certain crops and not others. We need to diversify our eating habits.

    Also, the fact that corn is genetically engineered, shouldnt we use our genetically engineered crops in our cars? Or would you rather eat it?

    1. Re:Why do we HAVE to use corn for food? by fotbr · · Score: 1

      The alternative, is to just put corn syrup in drinking water and force everyone to drink it.

      The soda industry has already done this. Find one soda, aside from dr. pepper made in one place in texas, that uses sugar instead of corn syrup.

    2. Re:Why do we HAVE to use corn for food? by Quikah · · Score: 1

      http://www.jonessoda.com/files/pure-cane-sugar.php

      http://www.noshtopia.com/2006/12/whole_foods_365.h tml

      Cannot personally verify the Whole Food's brand. Another possible is Trader Joe's, but I haven't found any info on their brand, most of the forzen foods I buy from them are sugar though. Might be a couple others.

      --
      Q.
    3. Re:Why do we HAVE to use corn for food? by mfrank · · Score: 1

      Much of the corn goes to feeding livestock.

    4. Re:Why do we HAVE to use corn for food? by fotbr · · Score: 1

      Well, what do you know, I learned something today.

      Thanks for the links!

  94. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by elucido · · Score: 0

    The water in Africa is not clean and the food is not cheap.

    There is food, but if people are starving, we are the cause of that. Who do you think was greedy? Which country is the richest?

    Africa is practically a tropic environment, it has more food than anywhere. Food is not the problem. Water and disease is more of a problem.

    And when we speak of dictators, there was no such thing s a dictator, that was invented in the west, and so was genocide.

  95. Why do you care what the people eat? by elucido · · Score: 1

    There is always food. People could eat ants, or other insects, worms, or raise chickens and eat other grains like wheat which grow better than corn.

    Why is corn so important that you want to force everyone to eat it?

    1. Re:Why do you care what the people eat? by artwork · · Score: 1

      That was not my point. Growing corn for ethanol uses up arable land, large quantities of irrigation water, and scores of other resources that can otherwise be used to grow food crops, corn or wheat or anything else. There is still controversy http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/cooke/200 7/0202.html on how efficient it really is to use ethanol fuel. It seems to me that the government is buying into an agenda that has not yet fully examined for its faults. Why not use wind energy, or invest in solar technology so that it becomes more viable? There are numerous societies that run entirely on renewable sources of energy. Just because windmills and solar panels are an ugly sight to some people?

  96. Real answer - drastically reduce car/plane use by shomon2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The real answer to the "future of bio fuels" is not to use as much as we use now. There is no magic thing that will make the problem of resource depletion go away. The stark truth is we've used more than we had in the first place and now we're basically fucked if we go on this way. You can shift the problem about at a huge cost to all, or radically change lifestyles.

    I don't mean go and buy a goat though: I mean we need to reorganise cities and suburbs so that people stay in their local area to get as much as possible of what they need(shops, work, socialising etc). This will mean much less car use. And in the states, they could get as efficient as Europe had to in the 70s and get used to higher fuel prices as has happened in Europe too, and that would already reduce the amount needed.

    I think for now the only biofuel that's actually "5-star green" is the recycling of biomass, plant waste etc to produce very limited transport - like EU nordic countries for example. Latest issue of "The Ecologist" has an in-depth section on the US's bio fuel plans and it's current and potential effects, and proposing bio-gas as the only acceptable solution that's viable now (yes microbes may be viable one day - let's see that research money). I think sweden has a bus service running on this.

  97. I got an overdose of Cold War history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (At least, that was my experience growing up in a former Confederate state.)

    Funny, I grew up in a blue state (specifically, a university town in Upstate New York) and I was lead to believe that the Soviet Union was a largely innocent country provoked into the cold war by overzealous imperialistic hotheads, and how the Korean War was morally equivalent to the Vietnam war. It was only when I got to college and started reading on my own that I learned about the Berlin Airlift, Prague Spring and other events that the other side did.

    I think that you'll find that your experiences are not as pervasive as you might think. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they are uncommon either)

  98. Well said by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    But try convincing all his left wing fanboys in the west of that. Its amazing how thick the blinkers on socialists can be and how quickly they get put on when it comes to realising one of their own perhaps isn't the golden boy everyone thought.

  99. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, I (American) never learned about the EU in high school or college history/geography at all. I never even heard of it until several years later. Also, most Americans could guess the capital of Utah because it is the only city in Utah they ever heard of (Salt Lake City), but I bet most couldn't tell you the capital of Washington. In fact, I bet most recent high school graduates in California couldn't tell you what the capital of California is.
    I know, typical comment about how uneducated we Americans are, followed by typical comment about how, no matter how dumb we are, Californians are even dumber than the rest of us.

  100. Locos do it for a different reason by Viol8 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Diesel electric locos exist simply because of the difficulty of building a mechanical transmission for them. The contortions the driveshafts and gearing would have to make from engine to wheels would be horrendous, not to mention the sort of gearbox required would have to be so robust that the expense wouldn't be worth it. This is why electric and hydraulic transmission is used on locos , not for fuel efficiency reasons. In fact you lose quite a bit of efficiency converting from rotary to electric then back to rotary power again. Hydraulic transmissions are a bit more efficient I believe but if they spring a leak you're screwed plus they're not suitable for high speeds.

  101. It might be the size of a mini... by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    ...but it would weigh the same as a hummer. Batteries are *heavy*.

    1. Re:It might be the size of a mini... by StarfishOne · · Score: 1

      I just can't help but wonder if a battery-powered Hummer would become a 'Bummer' ;D

  102. High-Energy, Multi-use Plant by The+Fun+Guy · · Score: 1

    Another suitable crop is known as High-Energy, Multi-use Plant. It grows efficiently, is drought tolerant and produces a wide range of industrially useful materials for food, feed and fiber, including energy-dense oils and resins.

    Unfortunately, The Man doesn't want people to grow High-Energy, Multi-use Plant, for some reason...

    --
    The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
    1. Re:High-Energy, Multi-use Plant by dpilot · · Score: 1

      And can you give us another name for the "High-Energy, Multi-Use Plant?"

      Could it be...in my best Church-Lady voice... HEMP!?!

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    2. Re:High-Energy, Multi-use Plant by The+Fun+Guy · · Score: 1

      Give the man a prize!

      --
      The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
  103. Bush advocates switchgrass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The news here is not that corn is a bad way to make ethanol. Everybody who isn't in the pocket of agribusiness knows that. The news here is that a true blue bushie (or should I say true red bushie? how did Republicans become red?) has reached this conclusion. Which is going to upset a lot of people. Which means they're up to something. What? Is Bush going to invade Iowa?


    Actually it was George W. Bush's State of the Union Address that advocated switchgrass. You can listen to the National Public Radio "All things considered" interview at Switch Grass: Alternative Energy Source?, which has the synopsis

    " David Bransby, professor of energy crops at Auburn University, is an expert on switch grass, which President Bush mentioned in his State of the Union address. Bransby says switch grass is cheap to grow and provides a high yield crop that can make a lot of ethanol for a low cost."


    Also read the ABC News article http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Business/story?id=156678 4

    Switchgrass: The Super Plant Savior?
    President Touts Alternative Fuel Ingredient, But When Will It Be Ready?
    By ADRIENNE MAND LEWIN

    Feb. 1, 2006 -- It grows throughout the Great Plains and parts of the South, can be used to make ethanol -- an efficient and environmentally friendly fuel for cars -- and it has the potential to reduce the nation's dependence on oil.

    Switchgrass is the perennial wonder plant touted by President Bush in Tuesday's State of the Union address and in his remarks made today in Nashville, Tenn., where he joked that he could have a new career in farming. "All of a sudden, you know, you may be in the energy business," Bush said. "You know, by being able to grow grass on the ranch and have it harvested and converted into energy. And that's what's close to happening." ... ...
    Ethanol as a fuel is nothing new. Dan Sperling, a professor at the University of California at Davis and director of its Institute of Transportation Studies, noted that even early Model T Fords used ethanol, and it's an ingredient in beer and wine.

    Most ethanol produced in America is made from corn -- a less-efficient material than switchgrass -- but corn producers are supported by a large lobby and huge government subsidies. There is no similar lobby or investment for grass or wood.

    "When you make ethanol from corn, for every gallon of fuel you get, you put in about seven-tenths of a gallon of fossil energy, oil or natural gas," he said. "That's only a small improvement in terms of greenhouse gases."

    On the other hand, he said, "ethanol from cellulose [like switchgrass] is a great energy strategy because for every gallon of ethanol, a tiny amount of fossil material [is used.] There's a dramatic reduction in greenhouse gases, so from an energy perspective it's far superior." ... ...
    For consumers, switching to ethanol would cost only about $100 per car. Kammen said all it takes are some new hoses and a new gas cap. "This is actually a switch we could make very easily and very quickly," he said.

    Kammen is working to get an initiative on California's November ballot requiring that all new cars sold in the state be flex-fuel ready within five years. According to UC Berkeley, in 2004, ethanol-blended gasoline accounted for just 2 percent of all fuel sold in the United States, though nearly 5 million vehicles are already equipped.

    "Converting to fuel ethanol will not require a big change in the economy," Kammen said. "We are already ethanol ready. If ethanol were available on the supply side, the demand is there."


  104. Nothing is the future, except ... by jopet · · Score: 1, Interesting

    There is no future that would allow everyone on this planet to drive around at will, fly around at will, eat strawberries flewn around the globe and tons of meat at will at the same cost and with equal or less ecological impact as/than now.

    This is simply not possible, mathematically. Either we want to utilize some renewable energy, then the sheer area of land needed to grow the apropriate crop would not be ecologically acceptable. Or we find a better and cheaper way to exploit still more fossile energy: that would further increase the amount of CO2 released to the atmosphere. Finally, even with some "magic" endless form of energy the future looks dim: if e.g. fusion or something similar would finally work then the cheap and endless supply of energy would make it possible to sustain an even larger number of people and give them the means to drive around at will, fly around at will, eat strawberries flewn around the globe and meat at will which would in turn indirectly lead to the exploitation and destruction of an even bigger part of the environment (all these people living in luxury need natural resources, produce waste, produce toxic substances, need their own houses, roads etc.)

    So, in order for people living on this planet without eating it up, destroying most of their fellow species, and totally covering it with artefacts and trash at some point, the only chance really is that energy gets more expensive and more precious. The only way to prevent utter destruction is that energy is costly and not available to everyone in huge quantities.

    As far as I can see, with a more long term vision of "future", nothing can be the future except precious, expensive energy.

  105. Im actually still waiting.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Im actually still waiting for the first "cornholing" joke...

  106. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by zoney_ie · · Score: 1

    Nowadays? The Irish Potato Famine wouldn't have been a famine but for British economic theory. It was so absurd that famine relief could only be given by the British authorities as pay for "work", hence the construction of "famine roads" and the workhouses.

    Absolutely disgraceful, and it is a pity more people don't appreciate the same thing continues to happen today; local crop failure but food in the markets that locals have no money to buy it with.

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    -- *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
  107. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by zoney_ie · · Score: 1

    Ah - I should really have read the quoted text in the parent post... oh well...

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  108. Castro is right by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How to make yourself unpopular on a US based system...

    However, seriously, between 1845 and 1849 Ireland had successive years of record harvests, and in each year exported huge amounts of grain. What's famous about those years? Yes, that's the Great Famine. People worked all day producing wheat which they couldn't afford to buy, so it was exported and they starved. There was no shortage of food in Ireland during the famine; there was a shortage of food ordinary Irish people could afford to buy. Similarly, in the Ethiopian famine of the mid 1980s which led to the formation of Live Aid, Ethiopia - so plagued with drought that it could not feed its people - was exporting so many water melons to Europe that it could afford to buy helicopter gunships with the proceeds. Again, people starved not because there was no food, but because they could not afford the food that was plentiful.

    The world's agricultural system is at full stretch at present producing enough food for (most of) the world's population. But our machines consume far more calories than we do ourselves. So if we switch our machines from consuming fossil fuels to consuming bio-fuels, then all the worlds agricultural land put together is not enough.

    One of the inevitable consequences of capitalism is that it distributes scarce goods inequitably. In a drought, the poor go thirsty while the rich water their golf courses. In a famine, the poor starve while the rich put biodiesel into their SUVs. This flies in the face of every system of ethics we know, and yet it is the inevitable consequence of capitalism. Ghandi said 'the earth produces enough for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone's greed'. Personally, I think he was an optimist; but nevertheless, one person's biodiesel is - inevitably - another person's hunger.

    --
    I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
    1. Re:Castro is right by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      One of the inevitable consequences of capitalism is that it distributes scarce goods inequitably.
      It's actually the purpose of a capitalist system, to craft and artificially manage scarcity. If everything is plentiful everywhere, a capitalist system cannot function.
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    2. Re:Castro is right by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

      Coming from a European, I suppose that your post is to be expected. However, your statement that "the poor go thirsty while the rich water their golf courses" is both ill-founded, and proves the counter to your arguments. A) you're assuming that "the poor" are in a metaphysical state, which cannot be changed, and is some sort of cosmic destiny (which is untrue) and secondly, a consequence is that because capitalism allows people to no longer be poor, they have the ability (perhaps not realized due to poltical or social forces) to stop being "the poor".

      It flies in the face of YOUR ethics, however, you need to really question what values YOUR ethics rests on.

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    3. Re:Castro is right by kabocox · · Score: 1

      The world's agricultural system is at full stretch at present producing enough food for (most of) the world's population. But our machines consume far more calories than we do ourselves. So if we switch our machines from consuming fossil fuels to consuming bio-fuels, then all the worlds agricultural land put together is not enough.

      We just need to figure out a way for our cars to run off our own fat. Fad diets would die quick if driving around burned massive amounts of fat. Overwieght people would be a thing of the past. Plus we'd be eco friendly by using human stored energy to do work.

    4. Re:Castro is right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are confusing individuals with classes. Capitalism does allow for a subset of any class to change their individual situation, but the classes persist; while individuals may leave the ranks of 'the poor', that socioeconomic class still exists. For that reason, you may as well consider that it cannot be changed, and will not be changed in our lifetimes.

      Furthermore, you may want to re-consider your perception of the UK as being part of Europe. Technically it is, but I rather believe that the UK is fairly different from more socialist countries in mainland Europe. Let's not forget the lessons of Thatcherism, after all.

    5. Re:Castro is right by RingDev · · Score: 1

      The world's agricultural system is at full stretch at present producing enough food for (most of) the world's population.

      Hardly! The limitation on food production world wide has much more to do with technology distribution, shipping, trade restrictions, and taxes/subsidies. It is exactly as you stated in your first paragraph. There is plenty of food in the world, the problem is getting affordable food to the areas where it is most needed. The issue is political, not agronomy.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    6. Re:Castro is right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know I was interested in your post until I noticed you completely left out potatoes from your post.

      It's hard to pay much attention to your points when you're too stupid to include a major component of the subject matter in your post.

      I am sure it was no accident, as you'd sound like a fucking moron talking about the potato famine and how it relates to grain.

      Shut up you disingenuous fuck.

    7. Re:Castro is right by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      Actually, the original meaning of the term "capitalism" is quite the contrary.
      It says that the means of production is concentrated to a class of "capitalists", who have wealth and power, but the workers they employ have nothing but their work force, and thus depend on facilities they don't own. So they have very little chance of competing with the capitalists, let alone survive by themselves.

      I suppose the problem is that so many people confuse capitalism with "free trade" (although that doesn't necessitate social mobility either.)

    8. Re:Castro is right by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 1

      We just need to figure out a way for our cars to run off our own fat. Fad diets would die quick if driving around burned massive amounts of fat.

      It's already been done. It's called the bicycle. Here's one of mine...

      --
      I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
    9. Re:Castro is right by Silverstrike · · Score: 1

      RTFA he linked to:

      during a time when Ireland was, even during the "potato blight", a net exporter of food.

    10. Re:Castro is right by jafac · · Score: 1

      In a drought, the poor go thirsty while the rich water their golf courses. In a famine, the poor starve while the rich put biodiesel into their SUVs.

      Really?

      What happens in a revolution?

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    11. Re:Castro is right by operagost · · Score: 1

      In a drought, the poor go thirsty while the rich water their golf courses.
      No one waters their lawn during a drought anywhere I've lived. Nice straw man, Karl Marx.
      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    12. Re:Castro is right by The_Quinn · · Score: 1

      One of the inevitable consequences of capitalism is that it distributes scarce goods inequitably. In a drought, the poor go thirsty while the rich water their golf courses. In a famine, the poor starve while the rich put biodiesel into their SUVs. Actually, you've got it all backwards. Take a look around - have you noticed that the condition of the poor is directly proportional to the amount of Capitalism in a country. American poor are tremendously better off than Ethiopian poor, and any poor of today are better off then the poor of 500 years ago.


      In a free (Capitalist) nation, nobody can stop a poor person from rising as far as his ability will take him. In non-free countries, you are subject to the whims of your rulers and masters.


      And just because someone is poor does not mean they are deserving of sympathy. In non-Capitalistic countries, it is easy to sympathize with people who are unable to break the chains of the oppressive regimes they struggle under. But in free countries, only a small minority of poor are actually incapable of producing wealth to sustain themselves.

    13. Re:Castro is right by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1
      Inequitably means unfairly. I know of nothing fairer than getting what you pay for, and that is capitalism.

      You must not know many ethical systems. I refer you to Herbert Spencer's "Ethics" and Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal"

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    14. Re:Castro is right by rollingcalf · · Score: 1

      "Actually, you've got it all backwards. Take a look around - have you noticed that the condition of the poor is directly proportional to the amount of Capitalism in a country. American poor are tremendously better off than Ethiopian poor, and any poor of today are better off then the poor of 500 years ago."

      But Western European poor are better off than American poor, with Europe's lower degree of capitalism and greater degree of socialism.

      And most third world countries without communism or dictators are even more capitalistic than the US, with a few families owning all the wealth and very few regulations to control the market because the government simply doesn't have the resources to enforce such regulations.

      --
      ---------
      There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
  109. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Question for you, how old are you?

    When I learned about the EU in high school, it was in my current affairs class because I was in high school when the Treaty of Maastricht was signed. (And before anybody says anything, yes I know that the EU had its beginnings decades earlier...)

  110. Electric motor - Actually quite good... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    Here's another link for you: Motor efficiency by load.
    Sorry about the pdf format, couldn't really find it elsewhere.

    Taking a 'Best Case' 75-100 hp motor, at 20% load(15hp) would be 95% as efficient as at full load. We're down to about 90% efficient. Still pretty good. If we drop to a more realistic econobox level motor, 30-60 hp(6 hp at .2), We're loosing ~8% over it's max, which is 93-94% efficiency. Around 86% efficient.

    One oddball thing: the 75HP motor is likely to be just as efficient in the 30-60 hp range than the one operating at full load. It started higher, and hasn't really started to loose efficiency yet.

    Cars run over a much wider load range, and typically operated at between 20 and 40 percent of max load.

    That's for a gasoline engine. Due to a gasoline engine's power factors, in order to give quick starts you have to massivly overpower it. Also, a gasoline engine is rated at it's maximum horsepower. A electric is rated at it's highest sustainable horsepower. Please not that the efficiency scale goes beyond 100%. It's perfectly possible to overdrive an electric motor quite a bit. While the chart only goes to 120%, it's possible to go way beyond that for short periods. Heck, run air through the motor to keep it cool you can raise the max sustained horsepower. Now where would I get air pressure at 75mph... ;)

    With the combination of 100% torque at 0 rpm and overdrive capabilities, the conventional sizing rule of thumb for people who convert cars to electric(sorry, no link atm) is to get comparable performance you need an electric motor of 1/3-1/2 the horsepower of the gasoline engine. So you size it to be able to sustain the car at 75-80 mph(use overdrive to get there), that puts your 20% level around 25 mph. You remain more than 80% efficient through the whole range.

    Besides, if you're hanging around 25 mph for extended times, odds are you're not going to stress a 150-300 mile range.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  111. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

    Also, most Americans could guess the capital of Utah because it is the only city in Utah they ever heard of (Salt Lake City), but I bet most couldn't tell you the capital of Washington.
    This is an exception to the general rule that the capital isn't the place everyone has heard of.
    --
    It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
  112. Blatant Immorality by Sqreater · · Score: 1

    The use of food for fuel production is a blatant immorality and illustrates the complete disregard of common sense by the US government in the face of political and industrial need. It further illustrates the reason not to allow environmental emotion to stampede us into badly thought out "solutions" to environmental problems.

    Farmers have been the foundation of civilization for 10,000 years because of their production of surplus food stocks; but now they seem to have decided, with government help, that that position is no longer sufficiently important to them and like everyone in our society today, the pursuit of the very last buck is the only honorable and "smart" occupation for them too.

    Let me point out that this problem actually occurred previously in the history of America. In the early years, alcohol production led to shortages of grain for bread. And during the American Civil War, The southern states had to outlaw the use of grain for alcohol production due to shortages of grain. This shows that, even in a time of war, farmers and distillers will put profit ahead of bread for the population.

    Those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana.
    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
    1. Re:Blatant Immorality by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "The use of food for fuel production is a blatant immorality and illustrates the complete disregard of common sense by the US government in the face of political and industrial need."

      That's not the government, that is people. In fact, isn't this a Gov't Agency saying it won't happen? I mean, people on /. have no idea about the government and are pretty knee jerk, but to state the government has some problem, when that very same government is saying that's not going to work is just plain stupid.

      "It further illustrates the reason not to allow environmental emotion to stampede us into badly thought out "solutions" to environmental problems"

      true.

      "This shows that, even in a time of war, farmers and distillers will put profit ahead of bread for the population."

      No shit Sherlock? people put personal profit ahead of the whole. Jeez,just like everybody else.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  113. Re:Avoid CITGO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly the reason why I never buy anything from CITGO.

  114. ever heard of farming? by nietsch · · Score: 1

    That controlled environment you refer to is also known as the modern farm (ok, different techniques, same principle). All domesticated cultivars would be unable to outcompete wild flora, but somehow they always manage to make enough food to feed the whole world. Why would this be different when is is about wet farming instead of land-based?
    A system of concrete ponds/gullies is easy enough to clean once in a while, and if you cover it with polyethene tunnels, you could enrich the CO2 content for faster growing and harvest fresh water (condensate from the tunnelwalls) as a byproduct. In the end it doesn't matter that much what variety is the most prolific: it matters that your CO2 is converted into biomass that is harvestable.
    The next step is to extract the primary oil content for the biodiesel, and the rest (cellwalls, proteins, sugars) can be converted to more diesel-like fuel and gas with a proces like Thermal Depolyremisation or Thermal Conversion (Proces). That also recylces the anorganic content (algae/plants nutrients), that you can feed back in to the algae ponds or sell to other farms.

    --
    This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
  115. sugar beets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    cane sugar tastes better, that's why its a more favorable source of commodity sugar. but sugar beats can grow where corn doesn't do as well.

  116. Biofuels by argStyopa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Biofuels only 'work' as a concept if you're one that is reflexively opposed to fossil fuels in the first place.

    We already have serious issues of deforestation in the Amazon due to agriculture - does anyone think that will DECREASE if the value of sugar cane is increased by world demand for biofuel?

    Further, in the US we already have problems with overtillage, exhaustion of the soil, loss of topsoil, and excessive pesticide use. Again, does anyone think that the widespread use of biofuel will help any of those situations? Particularly (regarding pesticides) when the corn isn't going to be consumed by anyone, so there is no food-quality issue to restrict the severity and frequency of pesticide use?

    No, I'm thinking at some point we're going to look back and see biofuel (from grown crops) as a stupid, dead-end choice that wasted a lot of time & money.

    --
    -Styopa
  117. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by indifferent+children · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Too much of what is going on today can't be understood if your knowledge of world events pretty much ends at WW2

    My wife doesn't like sad movies. When we were watching Peter Jackson's King Kong, right about the point where the ape is spinning on the frozen pond in Central Park, and the army is setting-up, she asks, "Nothing bad happens to him, right?" I didn't know that she didn't know how King Kong ends. So that's where we stopped it. As far as she knows, King Kong ends with a happy beastie butt-skating in Central Park.

    If you do that same thing with U.S. History stopping at WWII, we look pretty decent.

    --
    Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
  118. Lula Article on Washington Post by Extremus · · Score: 2, Informative

    Today, the Washington Post is featuring a article from President Lula addressing this issue. Here is the link:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2007/03/29/AR2007032902019.html?hpid=opinionsbo x1

  119. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you do that same thing with U.S. History stopping at WWII, we look pretty decent.

    What sort of history books have you been reading? Seriously, neither do we look pretty decent up to WWII, but the years afterwards are in many ways the same sort of shit that has been happening all throughout US history. Its just that the players and different.

    Frankly, if anything the US is actually more enlightened after WWII than it was before. Take Abu Ghraib - a very horrible and shameful scandal. But that was nothing compared to the lynching of blacks in the south, or the rape and murder of Indians in the old west. Any serious student of US history would be able to rattle on many more examples.

  120. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by indifferent+children · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    But that was nothing compared to the lynching of blacks in the south

    Sorry, I was only thinking about international affairs. Internally, our track record isn't as good, for people (not just identifiable minorities, but all non-wealthy) or for the environment.

    --
    Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
  121. Inane by rantingkitten · · Score: 1

    There is plenty of food to go around, and there almost always has been. Starving people are not starving because of a lack of food, they are starving because the food never gets to them (usually rotting away in some government surplus warehouse), either due to corruption, negligence, crappy transportation, lack of caring, or some combination thereof.

    While food supply is surely a concern, energy supply is no less a concern, unless we want to go back to the dark ages. Saying we should sacrifice one or the other is idiotic. There is a happy medium.

    --
    mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
  122. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, I was only thinking about international affairs. Internally, our track record isn't as good, for people (not just identifiable minorities, but all non-wealthy) or for the environment.

    Fair enough, but I'm not sure if I'd agree with you there either. On international affairs, you may wish to read about William Walker (whose defeat is a national holiday in many Central American countries), as well as other meddlings in Latin America in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The US's only saving grace is that overthrowing the government of a bunch of countries compares nothing to the partion of Africa by the European powers.

    And on the environment, you might be surprised to know that pretty much every tree east of the Mississippi was cut down before 1850. The original flag for New England from colonial times, had an evergreen tree because New England was entirely coniferous forest when the Europeans first arrived. The foliage that New England is so famous for are pretty much entirely replanted trees.

  123. The myth of ethanol as fuel. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ethanol, burned to produce an equal amount of energy to a specific amount of octane is going to produce an equal amount of carbon dioxide. The whole motivation to use ethanol as fuel is completely misguided. (Or a not so clever ploy.)

    Heats of combustion of Ethanol vs n-Octane from my 1989 CRC Handbook (in kilogram calories per gram molecular weight):
    Ethanol: 326.68 (~327 kcal/mol ~= 1367 kJ/mol)
    n-Octane: 1302.7 (~1303 kcal/mol ~= 5450 kJ/mol)

    Complete combustion reactions:
    Ethanol: C2H5OH + 3 O2 = 2 CO2 + 3 H2O (-1367 kJ/mol)
    Octane: 2 C8H18 + 25 O2 = 18 H2O + 16 CO2 (-5450 kJ/mol) ...equalised by mols of CO2:
    Ethanol: 8 C2H5OH + 24 O2 = 24 H2O + 16 CO2 (-10.9 MJ)
    Octane: 2 C8H18 + 25 O2 = 18 H2O + 16 CO2 (-10.9 MJ)

    So, you can see that to produce equal amounts of energy by combustion of either fuel, one must produce equal amounts of carbon dioxide.

    In fact, ethanol from corn will produce more carbon dioxide overall, as the carbon dioxide produced by fermentation of corn to produce ethanol will more than offset the benefits of its relatively clean combustion.

    Burning ethanol does nothing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It is a convenient way for the petrochemical industry to prolong its inevitable death. A number of petro stations in Canada have been selling gasoline with up to 15% by volume ethanol for decades now (Sunoco in particular).

    Granted, gasoline is of course not pure n-Octane, and contains lots of other crap. Its mostly the toluenes and related aromatics that give gasoline its smell, pure octanes have very little aroma, slightly minty if anything.

    Combustion of gasoline is less likely to be complete, so burning ethanol is going to be cleaner in terms of emissions and will produce fewer toxic byproducts of combustion, but will do NOTHING WHATSOEVER to help global warming. I find it amusing how easily the public and businesses are fooled.

    Now, what does make some sense to me is to produce biodiesel from rapeseed (canola) or hempseed (marijuana), in terms of ease of production and sustainability, but again, burning these fuels for energy is not going to help global warming, the same amount of CO2 will be produced.

    The answer obviously is CANDU nuclear reactors and electric/flywheel vehicles, but this would destroy the profits of many powerful corporations, and so will not happen under democratic capitalism. The market indices must never decrease, regardless of the cost, even if that cost is the future of humanity. We are on a path to self destruction and violent revolution is the only way out, but I fear that will never happen.

    The price of corn has nothing to do with it, feeding the poor has nothing to do with it, its all about protecting the financial interests of those in control. The future of man be damned.

    Sleep well.

    1. Re:The myth of ethanol as fuel. by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Obviously burning ethanol emits carbon, but that carbon recently came from the atmosphere. So at least it's not unlocking any carbon that has been long bound as a solid or liquid inside the Earth.

      I'm surprised that in this whole discussion I only saw 2 references to butanol. There are several factors about ethanol that make it kind of nasty as a fuel, not the least of which is its tendency to adsorb water. Butanol is much more compatible with our gasoline equipment, and is in the same ballpark in terms of fuel value. But we need a breakthrough or two in order to produce butanol in fuel-like quantities.

      The answer is to quit moving stuff as much and as needlessly as we do. Obviously things need to move, but we move practically everything around the world, and we've destroyed local production. That only happens when the cost of transportation is severely undervalued.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    2. Re:The myth of ethanol as fuel. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Federal study confirms my analysis:

      http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/03/30 /ethanol-emissions.html

      I could have told them that without a study however.

      Obviously burning ethanol emits carbon, but that carbon recently came from the atmosphere. So at least it's not unlocking any carbon that has been long bound as a solid or liquid inside the Earth

      Good point, but fermentation and combustion of the resulting alcohol, releases CO2 that would otherwise have remain fixed by vegetation. It is still a net contributor to atmospheric CO2.
  124. Soy and Cotton displaced by corn by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    For the next harvest it looks as though central planning will lead to reduced soy and cotton in favor of corn: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/business/30wire- corn.html. Funny how the State of the Union Speech gets so many mixups.
    --
    Solar: It's more Efficient! http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  125. all biofuel will NOT work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Biofuels rob the ground of area that can be used for food, it puts more pollutants into the water system, and creates large scale erosion problems. If weather is bad, we have fuel shortages as well as high prices. Even this super algae will demand water supplies that should be used for other necessary things.

    Biofuels are a big disaster in waiting.

  126. BioFuels helps the War against Drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There are farmers that would rather plow under their healthy crops than sell it unprofitably.
    There are farmers that would rather grow illegal crops for drug production than sell current unprofitable food researves to be given to countries (that make NO efforts on population control or social resposibility).
    Farmers in starving countries are going bankrupt from the free food given to the country so future food supply in that country is greatly harmed.
    More free food to starving countries that have no population control simply equals more starving babies and children... a never ending story of starvation and poverty for both farmers and poverty stricken countries.

    BioFuels helps the War against Drugs and fighting poverty world-wide.

  127. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
    "We spend way too much time talking about the Civil War..."

    You mean the war of northern aggression don't you?

    :-)

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  128. It's very debated by paladinwannabe2 · · Score: 1

    The problem, of course, is that when you have millions of people fighting over something, some of them are fighting for different reasons. It's very hard for people to grasp, but there it is. Also, if I remember my history right, South Carolina seceded after Lincon was elected, but before he was president (and it looks like Wikipedia also disagrees with you).

    As near as I can tell (and it looks like I know more about it than you) the Civil War was fought because the South wanted to preserve the rights of its states and it way of life (read: slavery) and the North wanted a whole country, not just part of it. The North wasn't fighting to end slavery, it was fighting to maintain a unified, powerful country (but that doesn't sound nearly as heroic). Partway through the war, though, they realized that by freeing slaves they could gain additional troops and destroy southern morale. (Lincoln was also anti-slavery, but he didn't want to alienate the South completely at first).

    Anyway, my point is that your son is at least as informed about the issue as you are. Wikipedia has some good article about it, and there should be plenty of books at your local library.

    --
    You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
    1. Re:It's very debated by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I didn't say the reasons for the states separating had no basis in slavery, only that the *WAR* was fought over the states' rights to separate, and military action wasn't started until a sovereign state wanted to clear out a base occupied by foreign soldiers. There was a strong movement at the time to expand a central federal government, slavery was a big issue within that, but certainly not the only one.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
  129. Fidel Castro is a blatant waste of brain cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't eat the kind of corn they're using to make fuel. It isn't meant for human consumption, its for animals. Our digestive systems don't appreciate it. The only way it could feed humans is indirectly via corn-fed animals, who we're already feeding well. Therefore, Castro is way off mark by saying its a waste of food that could feed billions of people. Also, the amount of corn produced couldn't feed billions anyways even if edible.

    And, even if there was enough inedible corn produced to feed a billion, the quantity of feed needed to stuff the animals in order to feed humans could never come close to feeding the quantity of people he expects it to. There is an inefficiency, except in chicken production, in most stock animals whereby they consume more than they produce in edible flesh.

    However, you could consider that the amount of energy, oil, money, land and effort spent on producing bio fuel may be better spent producing food that could be consumed by humans. Indirectly, he may be correct. Though, I doubt we could ever feed the entire world and still make money.

    Worth noting is this ancient Chinese proverb, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

    The truth of the matter is, if people are starving, we need to sell them seeds and teach them how to farm if we want to save them. We'll never be able to send them enough food to meet all their population's needs, wherever they may be.

  130. Actually the french are on it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This might come as an ironic for some, but the french carmakers PSA (peugeot-citroen), have already presented an prototype diesel-hybrid engine to fit their current C4 series of cars and have a scheduled release date of 2010 for a massmarket launch (since citroen's market strategy has always focused on being very affordable for the average consumer, while still introducing new/experimental tech, they claim it will take them two years to perfect the manufacturing process in order to keep the costs low enough to still fit their average market demoghrapics), meanwhile its sister company peugeot has released a new workhorse van wich comes factory ready to run on B30 (30% biodiesel blend) without any modifications or extra maintenance expenses).
    oh and they claim to be expecting something around 88mpg out of it in urban driving (on the highway its an average diesel), google c4 hybrid for more details on it

      Basicly yeah, its being worked on ;)

    P.S.:I read a post on a us car site claiming that "the c4 is an average sized european 3 doors car",as an european, and 2 generation citroen driver I have to clarifiy this, the c4 is a bigassed 3 to 5 door car, its about the size of a prius (a bit less but not much) ,wich is 5/3 to twice the size of an average 3 door car over here.

  131. Bureaucrats say, "You use what we tell you to use" by k1e0x · · Score: 1

    No, its not a free market and if it was, nobody would have to make this choice. The decision of "to use corn for fuel or food" would be made naturally and the best possible outcome would occur without any government intervention. Our Government can't fix this problem.. why can't they just let us decide whats fuel?

    Where these bureaucrats think they get the authority to come out and say.. "Oh.. Don't worry, we know whats best for you." I'll never know.

    --
    Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
  132. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

    I'm an American. I work for a university, so live in a university town. One of the most intelligent guys I have met here never went to college; he moved here when his highschool girlfriend came to college here and stayed after they broke up. Occasionally at parties, if it comes out that he isn't in school and never attended college, some asshat will make some comment about it (interestingly, my friend claims this is much more likely to be a philosophy grad student than anything else). My friend's favorite thing to do is challenge said asshat to name all 50 states. I have seen this happen several times over the last few years; the closest I saw anyone come was something like 45. It's priceless when my "uneducated" friend then rattles off the ones they couldn't come up with. Even better is if someone asks him why he knows them so well. "I've been there." It's a classic example of theoretical vs. practical education.

    And oddly enough, I have been to Washington, and do know the capital, even though I haven't actually been to Olympia. I have never been to California, and couldn't remember what the capital was (Sacramento). Short point on a long story, I suspect that most Americans simply don't know about geography b/c they haven't seen much of it. Once you've been there, you tend to remember.

    --
    ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
  133. who else thinks there being lied to? by Coraon · · Score: 1

    I personaly think that corn (may have to have some slight genetic modification) might be the right way to go. I mean we have a whole province in canada that prettymich all they do is grow it. And let me tell you...thats alot of corn

    --
    -Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
  134. 4 friendly words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Beans, rice, onion, and garlic...

    You could go pretty far (at low cost) with them. Add some bulk spice, and you'd be rocking. You'd crap better, too (trust me).

    No reason to swear off meat quickly... an omnivorous diet is probably best. Just de-emphasize it.

  135. Confusion reigns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You know, I see stories like this and they just make me ill. People are soooo misinformed and soooo ignorant of the facts, it's depressing. Sometimes I am convinced that there is an organization somewhere whose sole purpose is to spread FUD.

    Just because you use corn to generate ethanol, does not mean that you still can't use what's left as food or feed. As a matter of fact, what is left actually makes a better feed for livestock than the corn itself. Farmers have traditionally used corn to "fatten" cattle for market. The starch in corn (which is the part of the corn used to make ethanol)literally put fat on the animal. No extra usable meat, just fat. In the distillation process, the starch is used to create ethanol. The rest of the corn is left in tact which is basically protien and fiber. Protien builds muscle/meat. The cooking and fermentation process actually even makes what is left more digestible, therefore making it a more efficient feed. Having an agricultural background, I can also tell you that cattle and other rumenids are very inefficient in digesting grains. If I remember correctly, only 15-20% efficiency in recovering. So much so that there were even experiments in the 70's and 80's about recycling their own feces and feeding it back to them. (that's not a joke) Grazers digestive track deal with grasses very well, but anything else, not so much.

    Something similar can be said about biodiesel bade from oil crops like soybeans, sunflowers, canola, rape, even corn. Once lightly roast it and squeeze it to get the oil out, what's left is still usable for a feed or food processing.

    Sugar Cane is a different issue. What's left after you process the cane? Nothing usable, just the grassy parts which is what Cane really is. So maybe that confuses some people and they think that vegetable oil production and ethanol production from crops like corn is the same.

    Personally I hate to sound pesamistic, but I think there are is no end to the people that are going to try and use anything they can to their own advantage. The cattlemen are probably the best example of this. They are trying to scare the market by releasing half truths so the price of beef goes up. Just last week there was a big deal about the average weight of cattle going to market and they blame the cost of corn. Truth is that yes, the weight probably did go down if they are feeding less corn, but that weight is in fat, not usable meat. So in reality you now have a better, more marketable product and the feeders are getting paid for usable product, not something that gets left on the trimming room floor.

    One thing that is true is that ethanol, biodiesel and butanol are not going to fix all our ills, but it is one piece of the puzzle.

  136. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Kool+Moe · · Score: 1

    Being able to rattle off any list of given facts has little to do with 'intelligence'.
    I think it's called the 'Claven Fallacy'.
    KM

    --
    Kinda like Moe, but just a little more Kool
  137. Why do we fight nature? by Epi-man · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In related news, Fidel Castro is blasting the production of corn fuel as a blatant waste of food that would otherwise feed 3 billion people who will die of hunger.


    I am sorry for being so cold and callous as I enjoy my luxurious life in the US, but why do we fight so hard to have more people living in areas where they apparently shouldn't be living per Mother Nature? I get so frustrated when people talk about the food supply problems and the water supply problems and how are we going to solve all these problems when perhaps, maybe, just maybe it is time to consider that the planet has enough human beings on it and adding to the population isn't the best move? Reminds me of the Matrix and Agent Smith's analysis of the human species as the only one that doesn't live within its bounds.
  138. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

    I wasn't suggesting that my friend's knowledge of the states was proof of his intelligence. I guess there was really no reason to mention the fact that he is intelligent; my point was more about practical vs. theoretical geographic knowledge. Most Americans at some point in middle or high school have to learn all 50 states and their capitals. Unless this becomes applied knowledge through actually visiting these places, most people tend to forget it. Which is also why the average American knows so little about European or Asian geography. A subsidiary point was my experience with fairly highly educated people having very little knowledge of basic geography (for their culture). It just seems to be an overlooked area of education for the most part.

    BTW, I REALLY REALLY want "Claven Fallacy" to be a legitimate term.

    --
    ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
  139. Air Engines are better by adius · · Score: 1

    Who cares about biodiesel when we can use compressed air!!

    Engineair's Ultra-Efficient Rotary Compressed-Air Motor
    http://pesn.com/2006/05/11/9500269_Engineair_Compr essed-Air_Motor/
    http://www.engineair.com.au/

  140. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by hab136 · · Score: 1

    Thanks for the link; I had never heard of William Walker.

    The history books I read in school talked very little about South America, and when they did, it went something like this:

    1. Indigenous people had human sacrifice. The Spanish came and converted or killed them.
    2. U.S. took California through Texas from Mexico. "Remember the Alamo".
    3. The US helped Panama build a canal and kill mosquitoes.
    4. Today the DEA spends a lot of money to help Columbia, Bolivia, etc fight drugs.

    Of course, this is partially because my history lessons went like this:
    1. US history
    2. European history
    3. The rest of the world (if time permits)

  141. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by operagost · · Score: 1

    It's a classic example of theoretical vs. practical education.
    It's an even better example of rote memorization. It's nice to put asshats in their places, but if your friend had tried to pull that on me I would pass the test and then engage hinm in debate over the causes of the Civil War or the morality of euthanasia.
    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  142. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No problem.

    On the flip side, don't go down the Noam Chomsky path and start believing that the US is responsible for all that is bad in Latin America, and that everybody else is innocent. For example, This particular war made the US Civil War look like a Tea Party; the Brits talk about how one out of three men were killed in WWI, imagine what it was like to have four out of five men in your country killed.

  143. Re:No, half the world is not starving. by psydeshow · · Score: 1

    Supply of feed corn and sugar cane, yes. MMMmmm, I sure do love me some sugar stew after a hard days work in the fields.

    Global agribusiness has solved distribution problems... and *that's* the real problem. The mega-farmer who owns all the land grows cash crops, while his many employees slowly starve to death.

  144. Why is this all or nothing? by MrTester · · Score: 1

    Why does everyone seem bent on making this an all or nothing decision?
    Why is there no discussion on the value of having diverse methods of producing fuels?
    Lets assume that algea makes is the best source of fuel and California goes crazy with algea prioduction and refinement (or whatever) plants. Alls well until a typhoon hits, cuts production for the year in half and drives prices up. Or Global Warming changes the oceans enough that this algea is not viable.

    Corn based fuels arent the most efficient. Fine, I accept that. But there is a reason I dont throw all my money into the one stock that is performing the best today. There is a reason we have stock portfolios, and the same reasons argue for an energy portfolio.

    Corn has some other attractions that set it apart from algea or switch grass. The reason corn has taken off is NOT because of the Iowa caucuses. Its because most years there is an excess of corn and the corn producers are looking for a market. This excess is NOT going to feed the starving, its rotting in silos. We have the corn and the production system in place NOW so of course its going to get more attention than things that we dont have in large quantities today. And there is value in having one crop that can can be diverted to either food or fuel production. You cant do that with Algea or switch grass.(I know, I know, there are different kinds of corn for different uses but there is some overlap).
    Thats enough for me to feel that this in ONE source of fuel, but there should be others as well.

  145. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

    Except it's not rote memorization for him. That's the point. He has had experience with these places, so didn't just memorize "Washington, Oregon, California, etc." He remembers "That place where I had that chili dog that gave me diarrhea for 2 days straight was in Washington on my way down to Oregon where I met that guy...." For some people, it is just rote memorization, so unless they periodically re-study the material, they forget it. And not many people study the states past high school. Geography in that sense is like, let's say, a car :-) You can read instruction and look at diagrams, but unless you actually change the belt, you are unlikely to remember how to do it a year from now. If you do change the belt, you are unlikely to forget how to do it.

    --
    ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
  146. How about hemp? by Seantotheizzo · · Score: 0

    I've heard that hemp would be a better crop as it works well as a corn-rotation crop for the soil and has more fuel potential than corn as well? Can anyone verify?

  147. Sugar Cane by Oshkoshjohn · · Score: 1

    With the advent of farming technology and the decline of slavery in the United States, we can now grow something besides cotton in the southern part of the country. Really, there's no more need for big men with machetes in sugar cane any more.

    --
    Goddamned kids! Get off my lawn!
  148. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by mfrank · · Score: 1

    Google the Texas Articles Of Secession. They make it pretty clear why they wanted out. I haven't looked at the other ones.

  149. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    In February 1992, I was a high school junior. I took "American History" that year and "Civics/Economics" the next year (the year the treaty went into effect). I know it doesn't have much to do with American history, but you'd think they would have mentioned it in economics. Also, I watched the TV news to some extent back then, and don't remember hearing about it there either.

    \overall, I would grade my public education a D+
    \\and I took "advanced" classes

  150. The definition of irony: by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    The IP Address is: 76.208.2.84. The host name is:
    adsl-76-208-2-84.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net


    and stalking/trolling others as well online:

    Hmmm. Yeah. I'll just let that speak for itself, APK.

    That's so cute that you tried to find my IP. You must really be falling for me, you poor thing. I wonder how you'll react when you discover I'm really a transexual transvestite from Transylvania.

    You have made a staggeringly huge fool out of yourself.

    --

    +++ATH0
  151. The definition of irony: Another arstechnica liar! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who said that is your IP? You seem awfully worried about that for some reason, why is that?You are so simple to manipulate into a reaction it is not even funny and you "tip your hand" via that reaction about that part of the last reply.

    And you and your arstechnica pals (proofs are below) did so much online stalking of apk, for years no less, YOU are not one to talk.

    All the way from 2001 to today's current date or near to it (in yourself trolling apk for no good reason here at slashdot constantly & admitting to it below as proof quoted by your own words):

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    That's just 1 example. windowsitpro.com, 3dfiles.com, majorgeeks.com, ntcompatible.com, techpowerup.com, 2cpu.com, and more are others where you morons from arstechnica stalk that guy endlessly, or try to cut him down behind his back all the time as you did here 2x now that I have found in your posting history.

    Also, searching 'apk' at episteme.arstechnica.com (where apk has not been since 2001 and you morons edited his posts no less there, just as Jeremy Reimer admitted to and was caught in impersonating apk on his forums at OSY and was kicked from his hosting provider for it no less and busted for email harassment by his ISP/BSP as well in the same stroke) shows this as proof of that, and that you are also a member of that pack of loser's website forums. You people are sickos. I can see doing a fight for a few days to make points, but for years, and from a pack of known and proven liars like you arstechnica losers? LOL!

    So, how do you like your own medicine, except truth & facts being used against you as well as your own words and lies, trolling YOU this time. You are now on the receiving end, how's it feel?

    Still, the fact that you all keep that up indicates that apk got to you all so badly, lol, by blowing away arstechnican's catching them in lies and showing they are NOT computer experts by any means (see the windowsitpro article above) so many times and in so many places online where you fools are known for attacking him, it proves you are all stinging badly is all from starting up fights and losing them each time vs. apk, ahahaha.

    So, please: give us a break! Do not even try to play innocent here, as far as stalking others online (you admit in a quote of your own words below you actually get some sick pleasure out of it, and the funny part is, you lose everytime you do it, as you did here being caught lying).

    AND, the only person that made a fool of themselves, is yourself here, being caught lying, rotflmao!

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

    More typical arstechnica forums members online lies, now from this nut StarKruzr (from Jeremy Reimer's disciple, lol, he gets caught in lies like Jeremy Reimer: The ULTIMATE liar, pretending to be some computer expert, yet has no degrees in computer science, nor even A+ or MSCE certs, or years if not decades of professional experience in this field in the trenches), that starts up crap with everyone?

    StarKruzr is not a woman though (but sure is a liar, another Jeremy Reimer/Jay Little (arstechnica morons who operate the same way and get caught everytime) style liar, lol, & like they, got his ass beat in thru his own dishonesties) and starLOSER is from Staten Island NY, and that is hi

  152. YHBT. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    YHL. HAND.

    --

    +++ATH0
  153. Re:No, they really don't. It's kind of sad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We're about the same age. Truthfully, I don't think that you should feel bad about not knowing about the EU until you were in high school; it really wasn't until the late nineties that it really started to become visible in ordinary daily life.

    I remember touring through Europe in middle school (1989), back when you had to (shudder) go through customs when you crossed borders. You really didn't see the EU at all; back then they were still debating what to call the thing. Visiting Europe in 2001, immediately prior to the adoption of the Euro, now that was a very different experience.

  154. You Have Been Proven A Liar from arstechnica by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And you are a liar starloser, pointblank. That much was simple to determine given the evidences. I can't believe you starloser, you sound like an idiot that is actually proud of harassing others! Easy to do online, doesn't take much of a person to do it. Some accomplishment. Now you have to live with your being exposed as a liar here on slashdot.

    (It's people like this starloser that come from that shithole arstechnica and ruin the atmosphere of the internet: Arstechnica - A pack of lazy, talk a lot do nothings that criticize & harass others by the same token & think it's cool or something. New news - it makes starloser look like some miserable dork and a liar given this person starloser as a prime example)

    No amount of "L33tSp33k" or whatever you call that use of compressed english in acronyms can disprove your own words that showed you as a liar though starloser:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155 [slashdot.org]

    And you appear to be a male, not a woman.

  155. WHO by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    CARES

    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:WHO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/judas+priest/electric +eye_20076160.html

      The IP Address is: 76.208.2.84. The host name is:
      adsl-76-208-2-84.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net

    2. Re:WHO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously, you @ least do, because you keep responding in the manner you do, and you are zeroed in on online as to your ip it seems. Your being caught lying in the typical arstechnica manner is evident and documented also. Outrageously funny that you have been via your own words, & it is no small wonder you are all flustered about it and keep responding. You only did that to yourself.

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      And, we know you[re not.

      By the way? Quit surfing so much pr0n, you're going to go blind.

      "Up here in space, I'm looking down on you. My lasers trace, everything you do. You think you've private lives, think nothing of the kind. There is no true escape I'm watching all the time"

  156. WHO by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    CARES

    YHBT. YHL. HAND.

    --

    +++ATH0
  157. *yawn* by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    You really do possess the emotional development of a 13 year old.

    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:*yawn* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you lack honesty, evidenced by your own words. Who's going to believe anything you say?

      The IP Address is: 76.208.2.84. The host name is:
      adsl-76-208-2-84.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

      More typical arstechnica forums members online lies, now from this nut StarKruzr (from Jeremy Reimer's disciple!

      (LOL, and starloser, like his arstechnica hero Jeremy Reimer, gets caught in lies like Jeremy Reimer did: Jeremy Reimer, ULTIMATE liar, who goes around online pretending to be some computer expert (yet Jeremy Reimer no degrees in computer science, nor even A+ or MSCE certs, or years if not decades of professional experience in this field in the trenches))

      Arstechnica trashtalkers and liars caught in the act, again, as they were here:

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

      No new news, just typical behaviour from the trash of the internet.

  158. *yaaawwwn* by StarKruzr · · Score: 1
    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:*yaaawwwn* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You really do possess the emotional development of a 13 year old." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Sunday April 01, @02:04PM (#18567725)

      And, you possess greater emotional development?

      It seems, like your heros from arstechnica (Jeremy Reimer and Jay Little), all you are left with his posting edited photos of people, like a frustrated petulant child, done by "the great Jeremy Reimer" (NOT!).

      (Jeremy Reimer: The charlatan who has no degree, no certifications, nor professional hands-on experience in the trenches in the field of computer science - another arstechnica fake and outright liar who was busted for email harassing others online and was kicked from his hosting provider for his crappy little OSY website lol, evidences are below in the windowsitpro thread url below!)

      As to starloser's honesty here? Take a peek:

      The IP Address is: 76.208.2.84. The host name is:
      adsl-76-208-2-84.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao. Worse, now you're like a child posting photos of others.

      More typical arstechnica forums members online lies, now from this nut StarKruzr (Jeremy Reimer's disciple, lol, and his results are about the same: No accomplishments in this field of note anybody can see, just his lies)!

      LOL, and starloser, like his arstechnica hero Jeremy Reimer, gets caught in lies like Jeremy Reimer did: Jeremy Reimer, ULTIMATE liar, who goes around online pretending to be some computer expert (yet Jeremy Reimer no degrees in computer science, nor even A+ or MSCE certs, or years if not decades of professional experience in this field in the trenches)

      Arstechnica trashtalkers and liars caught in the act, again, as they were here:

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

      No new news, just typical behaviour from the trash of the internet.

  159. Aren't you going to debut your song for us too? by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    No?

    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:Aren't you going to debut your song for us too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the one Jeremy Reimer plagiarized from SouthPark as to its melody and words?

      (Yes, proof again of arstechnica's lack of originality or creativity, as well as their immaturity, as well as skills in just about anything, like starloser here who put down myspace and apk's software but when asked to show what he had done better, starloser had nothing but outright evasions, lol!).

      I'd add foolhardiness as well about Reimer's writing libellous songs about others and placing them online, as well as Reimer looking like a 2 yr. old. Mainly, because that type of thing is libel and grounds for lawsuits.

      It seems that Jeremy Reimer could care less, and mainly because he has nothing to lose (since he is out to come off as some 'paid author', big deal, in his private arstechnica playpen, lol, and that is about it - he is trying to pull of a deceit that is now costing him, and your precious arstechnica as time passes, lol!)

      E.G.- Arstechnica's credibility is in question, mainly because of Jeremy Reimer in fact, being regarded as a charlatan author or authority in this field lately.

      Proofs of that are below from a couple of sources in fact. See here, as only 1 example of many online nowadays about him being less than credible or capable of being noted as an authority in this field:

      "As for Reimers credibility, I would never cite his article in a paper"

      that is a quote about Reimer's credibility (only 1 of many nowadays online) that was taken from here http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/node/933

      You starloser claim to be a grad student in this field and yet seem to believe Reimer is a credible source of information? Guess again. You cannot be believed anyhow, especially after you stated you are a girl, and are not, proof of that is from your own words below in fact.

      Jeremy Reimer outright admitted to even impersonating apk on his OSY forums as well, here:

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

      As well as that url showing proof of Jeremy Reimer your hero being kicked from his hosting provider, and his isp/bsp nailing him on email harassing apk and others.

      Starloser - You cannot win no matter what you do, what lies you tell, and other immmature stupidities.

      Simply because your hero Jeremy Reimer's already beaten you to it, lol, but it makes sense:

      Your no degree or certifications hero in Jeremy Reimer (in comp. sci. on both counts) and no professional experience hands-on in the trenches doing network engineering or software engineering hero is already in doubt online as to his ability to be any sort of authority in this field has nothing to lose anymore at this point, being questioned, now along with your own here:

      Are you a girl or guy??

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

      More typical arstechnica forums members online lies, now from this nut StarKruzr (from Jeremy Reimer's disciple, lol, he gets caught in lies like Jeremy Reimer: The ULTIMATE liar, pretending to be some computer expert, yet has no degrees in computer science, nor even A+ or MSCE certs, or years if not decades of professional experience in this field in the trenches), that starts up crap with everyone!

      APK has been in these books and magazines, have you?

      WINDOWS NT-Magazine (forerunner

  160. Two odd details by StarKruzr · · Score: 1
    As to starloser's honesty here? Take a peek:

    The IP Address is: 76.208.2.84. The host name is:
    adsl-76-208-2-84.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)


    1) You know, the Latin phrase "non sequitur" means "it does not follow."

    (i.e., what does my IP address have to do with my hometown or my gender?)

    2) I hate to break it to you, but OSY is alive and well.

    Try to get your insane rants straight, K? I do so hate having to correct you all the time.
    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:Two odd details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't it make you wonder how I can know your IP address and everytime you post here? You ought to. Still, you brought it on yourself, ala "You can RUN, but you can't HIDE!". At this point, I will never let you run and hide. Ever.

      "2) I hate to break it to you, but OSY is alive and well." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Sunday April 01, @11:36PM (#18570311)

      OSY wasn't so alive and well, when it got removed from its hosting provider, lol. Jeremy Reimer just moved it because he HAD to, just like his buddy Jay Little had to. The funny part is those 2 morons tried to do that to apk, and it instead happened to them. Oh, that must have gotten to them good, lol.

      OSY is a b.s forums by a b.s. human being, end of story on that account.

      I.E. Jeremy Reimer is a ridiculous fool trying to play computer scientist!

      Reimer is now the subject of a great deal of questioning as to his validity as a credible author as regards this field as well because of his trying to confront apk and failing miserably, see the windowsitpro url below for validation of that.

      (Jeremy Reimer is by no means a credible author in this field, anymore than you are, and in fact less (assuming you do have your degree in this field, but nobody can believe you about anything anymore including myself because of your lying and being caught in it below))

      Jeremy Reimer is less qualified than most students in this field are in fact. Jeremy Reimer lacks a degree in computer science, & doesn't even have an A+ certification, let alone an MCSE, and he certainly does NOT have years (or any) professional experience in this field in the trenches in the network engineering or programming areas.

      In fact, YOU should see this url, because people are starting to question that loser's abilities, here http://ambernight.org/archives/2006/06/21/250

      and here, a quote:

      "As for Reimers credibility, I would never cite his article in a paper"

      cited here

      http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/node/933

      Thus, he brought about his own end, attacking apk, because apk is the one who discovered Reimer is nothing but a poseur, here:

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

      (and other outright hilarious things he turned up on Jeremy Reimer as well there, such as Jeremy Reimer the charlatan being charged w/ email harassment and getting his OSY website ousted from its original location at his former ISP/BSP's website hosting for it, lol!)

      And you, starloser? You are of the SAME dishonest ilk, another piece of filth from arstechnica. Why say that?? Well, see here (and this will be in all of your posts here from now on, promise):

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      And, we KNOW you are not a female as you stated. You are nothing but a liar, and a lazy liar, who puts down and harasses others, but has done nothing of note yourself in this field, lol. Another arstechnica liar, the home of the scum of the internet.

  161. Oh, APK by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    Doesn't it make you wonder how I can know your IP address and everytime you post here?


    Um. No? Mostly because a) that's not my IP address and b) to know when I post, all you have to do is READ MY USER PAGE. This isn't rocket science, which is the reason you can do it.

    And I find it highly amusing that you are still in doubt about my gender.
    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:Oh, APK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And I find it highly amusing that you are still in doubt about my gender." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @01:45AM (#18570749)

      I know you are a male. If anyone is in doubt about their gender? LOL, One would have to say it is you (or you are lying, either way, you lose), when you said you were a woman, lol, here:

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      Another patented arstechnica lie, by another dishonourable liar from arstechnica who calls himself starloser: a member of the home of the loser charlatans online, arstechnica.

  162. Also by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    consider me permanently "calling you out." Okay? Consider the default state of my existence to be "laughing at APK and calling him a lying, good-for-nothing, narcissistic fool who has been banned from every place on the internet he's ever become a member of." Whatever you post, anywhere, on any of my Slashdot comments or anywhere else you happen to turn up, by default append a comment to it, by me, much like this one, calling your very existence an insult to worthless fools everywhere. I have officially appended eternal mockery to everything you have ever accomplished, failed to accomplish or hope to accomplish. How's that?

    Now you will never be able to stop posting, because you always have to have the last word.

    There's no solution to this halting problem, my friend.

    --

    +++ATH0
  163. Re:Also starkruzr? You're a liar plain and simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, look at that reaction! Now, I am starting to get to you, and this is good!

    "Now you will never be able to stop posting, because you always have to have the last word." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @03:19AM (#18571041)

    Good Lord this fool thinks I am apk, haha. Guess again.

    You'll just stop yourself, by your lies evidenced below (by becoming a laughing stock here):

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

    "Consider the default state of my existence to be "laughing at APK and calling him a lying, good-for-nothing, narcissistic fool" - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @03:19AM (#18571041)

    I'd say your default existence here at slashdot is becoming that of a liar who has been exposed, rotflmao.

    As to being a liar? Well, are you a girl or boy?? You either lied above, or you just don't know, which indicates somekind of problem in any event, lol!

    apk is also a decent contributor to this field in many capacities. Are you? No. You were asked that repeatedly and you had zero to show for it, lol. If anyone has grounds to be proud of themselves vs. he or yourself here? He does. You don't. Myself and others asked what you had done better than he had, vs. this single piece of what he wrote:

    http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/389/foowhatev ermakesgooglehappy.html

    and you had nothing, rotflmao. Sounds like another jealous no good for nothing arstechnican, just like Jeremy "no degree in computer science, no certification (not even an A+, let alone an MCSE), and no years of professional hands-on experience in the trenches as a network engineer, or software engineer" Reimer. Another fake in starLOSER, just another Jeremy Reimer clone, lol.

  164. Reimer may look like a two year old by StarKruzr · · Score: 1
    But you look like you're 60, even though you're 46 or 47!

    As you would say, "ROTFLMAO!"

    WINDOWS MAGAZINE, 1997, "Top Freeware & Shareware of the Year" issue page 210, #1/first entry in fact (my work is there)

    PC-WELT FEB 1998 - page 84, again, my work is featured there

    PC-WELT FEB 1999 - page 83, again, my work is featured there

    I know that apk helped Mark Russinovich


    UH OH, RETARD! LOOKS LIKE YOU SCREWED UP! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, YOU JACKASS!

    Now all of Slashdot and the entire Internet know PROOF POSITIVE that you make up people to "support" you and speak about yourself in the third person ALL THE TIME to make it appear that eeeeverybody in the world backs up good ol' Alex! WOW! What a PATHETIC LOSER you are! How incredibly sad! "LOL!" "ROTFLMAO!"

    Oh, well. It's okay, APK. Someday you'll move out of your dad's house. I believe in you!
    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:Reimer may look like a two year old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Now all of Slashdot and the entire Internet know PROOF POSITIVE that you make up people to "support" you and speak about yourself in the third person ALL THE TIME to make it appear that eeeeverybody in the world backs up good ol' Alex!" - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @02:58PM (#18577507)

      I posted that about apk as to which publications he has appeared in within this field, from here where I found it, and I simply forgot to edit portions of them it seems, oh well:

      http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?s=7a4 bac8c2ce71c0e7210cd17af534813&t=25617&page=3&highl ight=aufrusten

      (He wrote that list up when he was asked to by somebody bothering others @ the forums I go to regularly in techpowerup.com):

      Also iirc, apk travels for a living contracting on jobs, and he doesn't have a steady home. He uses his father's home as a central mailing area, instead of a P.O. Box. What is wrong with that? Makes sense to myself as well. Many people today do not have their own homes, and many live in the same manner today to survive.

      Didn't you read the links from windowsitpro.com? He mentioned that there as well iirc.

      How stupid do you feel now, starloser?

  165. You're not fooling anybody, APK. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1
    How many things did you pick up and throw across the room when you read that comment? You were SO MAD that I called you on your obvious bullshit, weren't you? After all, the world revolves around you, and how dare I break into your your little shell of self-obsessiveness, right? ... wow. I can't believe you linked that.

    Alectaar
    Banned


    FASCINATING. I WONDER WHY.

    Do you know how many forums I've been banned from? Precisely ZERO. Why is it that you manage to get banned everywhere you go, Alex? Guess I know why you didn't breathe a WORD when I asked you where all your sycophants from TPU were and why they weren't backing you up -- THERE AREN'T ANY! HAHAHAHAHA! Pathetic.
    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:You're not fooling anybody, APK. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So he got banned, big deal. Our forums haven't been the same without him in fact, ask around there. He was greatly liked in fact. When he got the boot, the whole place went up in arms in fact, and I was one of the people who wanted him back. He could be, because he just beat the ban a few times to show them he could. It was very funny.

      (imo, you haven't lived until you've been banned from a forums. Ask Jeremy Reimer's friend Jay Little, you know, your 2 heros apk soundly beat into the ground, lol. Jay Little AND apk were both banned from arstechnica in fact, but forums board bans are simple to beat. Proves that Jay is not a great asskisser is all. Same with apk).

      "Do you know how many forums I've been banned from? Precisely ZERO." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @06:03PM (#18579895)

      Then, you are nothing but a yes-man and asskisser.

      (And, like most artechnicans, I am sure you post as others thru a proxy server when you do get banned. Fact is, many arstechnicans do & have been caught at it. Ask the people at ntcompatible.com and majorgeeks.com about that. They caught a pile of arstechnicans doing just that. Getting banned, and coming back in using yahoo.com mail accounts and different email names + proxy servers).

      I bet you totally feel stupid now, don't you?

      Every point I brought up in apk's defense was effective in shooting you down, everytime.

      Still doesn't make up for you lying, rotflmao, saying you are a girl, and you are not here:

      The IP Address is: 76.208.2.84. The host name is:
      adsl-76-208-2-84.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao.

      More typical arstechnica forums members online lies, now from this nut StarLOSER!

      (Starloser's Jeremy Reimer's disciple, lol! I say that, since Reimer is his hero).

      Starloser gets caught in lies like Jeremy Reimer who is The ULTIMATE liar: Jeremy Reimer, some fool pretending to be some computer expert, yet has no degrees in computer science, nor even A+ or MSCE certs, or years if not decades of professional experience in this field in the trenches.

      Jeremy Reimer who was caught impersonating apk on his forums & admitted to it on his forums and in the url below next:

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

      (There, Reimer also got caught for email harassment and had his site kicked from his hosting provider as well - some idol/hero you have there, Starloser!)

      "As for Reimers credibility, I would never cite his article in a paper"

      a quote about Reimer's credibility (only 1 of many nowadays online) that was taken from here

      http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/node/933

      StarKruzr is not a woman though (but sure is a liar, another Jeremy Reimer/Jay Little (arstechnica morons who operate the same way and get caught everytime) style liar, lol!

    2. Re:You're not fooling anybody, APK. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He seems to have somebody backing him above and doing a good job. It seems you are being put to shame and rightfully so starkruzr. You have been caught lying like that Jeremy Reimer whoever he is. It seems that this person's facts are well ordered facts and well documented ones, versus your innuendo starkruzr. You keep calling him apk and I see no evidence that he is in fact apk. Your reaction is showing me that you are unsure and taking any stab you can at this person who has you dead to rights caught as a liar. To think I used to read your words and assign credibility to them. I do not anymore. Good day and good luck starkruzr. You need it.

  166. How many personalities do you actually HAVE? by StarKruzr · · Score: 1
    Seriously?

    What do you call this one? "Mike?" "Steve?"

    Every time you change faces you seem to somehow completely miss the fact that NO ONE TALKS LIKE THIS IN REAL LIFE.

    It seems that this person's facts are well ordered facts and well documented ones

    It seems you are being put to shame and rightfully so starkruzr


    You also keep using my name as if it gives you power over me. Every time you have changed faces you have done this. No one talks like that either. What sales class did you take that convinced you this was the way you should talk all the time?

    (Before you jump on me for using your name over and over again, it has only been to assert that you are not fooling me and I am quite aware that you are in fact Alexander Peter Kowalsky, the sad, pathetic 46 year old reject who lives with his dad in Syracuse.)
    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:How many personalities do you actually HAVE? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To quote apk:

      "Care to show us your Phd in psychology or psychiatry?"


      Since you make assessments of others' sanity online? You know, the degrees in those fields that you do not possess?? apk uses that quite a bit and it works. After all, where is that phd in those fields you have??? Oh yes, you don't have them.

      Generally, those tossing spell check nitpicking or sanity dispersions at others' characters, first, tend to be the people with problems, giving away the keys to their minds. YOU are not intelligent enough to realize this, I would suggest you do, for your own good.

      All since you think I am he (I took from his style on this one, and we do write alike. We are not the only ones though, sorry to disappoint you and if you doubt this? Again, where's that Phd in English this time? Oh, that's right, another degree you don't have, along with a shred of credibility here on these forums - you will run yourself out of here, and your own words will do the job below)

      I use his overall style, because it works on people like you, like it did on your fellow arstechnicans Jay Little and Jeremy Reimer at windowsitpro mag forums. I do a style just like apk's quoting and url backing he uses.

      It is a very good debate style, because it caught all of your arstechnica pals in lies like you have been caught here:

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

      (Jay Little, and Jeremy Reimer (arstechnicans all, home of the liar and loser blowhard online, lol and now you here at slashdot, and there is no arguing with the results or facts is there, starloser?) the ones who had their sites removed from their hosting providers and also got caught email harassing others as well no less))?

      See, at this point, above all else, nobody can trust or believe in your starkruzr. You've been caught lying with your own words. I actually feel bad for you, and mainly because you are not very intelligent and a lousy debater. Are you a girl, or boy? You are not sure yourself:

      "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

      I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

      Very bad showing starkruzr. You have to live and post here, I do not. Your credibility has gone out the window, and you tossed it there, nobody else.

      "(i.e., what does my IP address have to do with my hometown or my gender?)" - by StarKruzr (74642) on Sunday April 01, @11:36PM (#18570311)

      The IP Address is: 76.208.2.84. The host name is:
      adsl-76-208-2-84.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net

      That IS your ip address, because every moment you are online, you are being watched. Get used to it, you brought it on yourself. Or, are you just lying yet again?

      Either way, you can't win, and you know it. You are a liar, just like Jeremy Reimer, your fellow arstechnican and hero, lol!

      More typical arstechnica forums members online lies, now from this nut StarKruzr (from Jeremy Reimer's disciple, lol, he gets caught in lies like Jeremy Reimer: The ULTIMATE liar, pretending to be some computer expert, yet has no degrees in computer science, nor even A+ or MSCE certs, or years if not decades of professional experience in this field in the trenches), that starts up crap with everyone?

      "As for Reimers credibility, I would never cite his article in a paper"

      a quote about Reimer's credibility (only 1 of many nowadays online) that was taken from here

      http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/node/933 [utexas.edu]

      You state

  167. About my friend Jeremy by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    All those links you cited about his credibility seem to be quite mixed in terms of opinion about him. A few critics does not a complete collapse of reputation make. Hell, unless at least SOMEONE doesn't like you you must be doing something wrong, AMIRITE????

    Allow me to sum up your comment:

    LOL liar Reimer lol arstechnicans rotflmao you are not a girl starLOSER liar lol!

    Truly, you are a paragon of writing accomplishment.

    Okay, seriously. Let's drop the act. Okay? Yes? Let's quit pretending. I am quite male. I only said I was female to mess with your head. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maximum culpa. And everyone who has posted in your support... has actually been you.

    Can we both admit to that in the spirit of bipartisanship, you dirty terrorist?

    --

    +++ATH0
  168. I don't need a degree in psych by StarKruzr · · Score: 1
    to know you're a nutter, Alex. Certifiably batshit insane. Your behavior fits the description of a narcissist perfectly.

    That IS your ip address, because every moment you are online, you are being watched. Get used to it, you brought it on yourself.
    ::dies laughing::

    So find me, dork. Show me a picture of my house. Go ahead. What am I doing right now? Where am I?

    (That is also not my IP address. Seriously. In fact, it's not ANY of them. Chew on that, you filthy Red.)

    And most importantly -- what are you going to do about it? Hm?

    Be very, very careful, now. Threats tend to be frowned upon by the authorities you love to invoke!
    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:I don't need a degree in psych by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chiming in here again. Starkruzr, every point he wrote is documented and fact. I checked on much of it in fact. By comparison, You do nothing but toss a lot of garbage with no substance behind it and you truly were caught lying here above all else. Once more, you know that I used to read your words and think they had merit, because I thought you did possess degrees in this field. I no longer do at this point because I know you are a liar and your own words did you in on that account. Example being that if you think Jeremy Reimer is some computer authority? You have it all wrong. If you really do possess an undergrad degree in this field and are working on your masters or doctorate? You are way off on Reimer. You know more than he does by far in this field, but that's my assuming, because that is all I have now. You were caught lying and I cannot believe your words period. That last post of his did you and the others arstechnicans mentioned in Jeremy Reimer and Jay Little in totally and I read it end to end and just thought "wow, I have been listening to a liar who probably has no degree in this field like he says" is all. Once more, good day to you and good luck. You need it. No one can believe you anymore here. I certainly do not.

  169. Jeremy the liar and email harasser, and more? Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no denying that Jeremy "no degree or cert or professional experience in computer science" Reimer is a charlatan and liar, per this url:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    Where is was shown that Jeremy Reimer is an email harasser who got caught, and tried to lie about it no less. Jeremy Reimer ended up having to move his osy website from his original hosting provider, on top of all else because of it, just as his friend Jay Little did.

    Pick better friends. As the saying goes though, since you have been caught lying here? Birds of a feather, flock together (at arstechnica, lol, house of liars and losers online).

    Now, YOU say it was mixed support? Funny part is 1/2 of those people replying are probably Jeremy Reimer or his arstechnica friends in support of him.

    I say this, because You accused others here of using others to support them, and yet you had no proof. Whereas, the proof of how you arstechnican's operate online and your gang up methods of using 'friends to help them' are right there above in fact, & you accused others of it here.

    You merely give your own modus operandi away in fact, in that very accusation, and also based upon how Jeremy Reimer and Jay Little plus other arstechnicans operate was shown above from windowsitpro mag forums where they did themselves in in this field badly versus apk.

    After all, that url from windowsitpro.com is where Jeremy "no degree in comp. sci. or even an A+ certification and no professional hands on in the trenches thru years of networking or programming" Reimer did so, and used Jay Little like a pawn at in.

    Jay Little, who failed as badly as Reimer, and perhaps worse, saying he was an Exchange expert, bragging that literally in fact, and it was funny how he got burned on a point on exchange where he is supposedly some expert, and also about ramdisks as well, lol, when he stalked apk to ntcompatible.com forums and lost once more, and another arstechnican in dosfreak chastised him for it, hilarious.

    Jay Little, another arstechnican giving away how you people operate. Some expert (not, how can he be? He is from arstechnica, lol, home of liars and losers online).

    You, like your name tossing and calling others nuts do not realize something - names you throw in a debate first, losing your cool, only serve to show what you are weak in or afraid of.

    Get your head together, because you are ruining yourself here, with your own words and lies which you now admit to lying about.

    Your detractors points have been that if you start up trouble as you have, and cut others down, at least have done some decent work yourself in this field. Nobody can believe anything you say now though, so you live with that fact. You did it to yourself, like most arstechnicans often do and was documented above as well as lies you told here. Nobody can believe you anymore, this is your own fault, nobody else's.

  170. You are absurd, APK. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    I have no detractors. I have no "fans." I do not have an online "presence" of any kind, and I like it that way. I am not a blogger. I am not any kind of online "personality." There is only you and your delusional fantasies.

    More to come!

    --

    +++ATH0
  171. APK by StarKruzr · · Score: 1
    is the only one who uses the phrase "in this field" repetitively the way you do.

    Give it up. Your ego prevents you from hiding your identity.

    Once more, you know that I used to read your words and think they had merit


    What the Jesus are you talking about, Alex? What "words?" I am not any kind of online "personality," and certainly do not aspire to be. I have no ego for you to crush in the way you are attempting to crush it. I am entirely secure in NOT being a "credible source." I have not studied to be a "credible source" in terms of journalism or reviews or what-have-you. What I AM studying to do is become a very credible source in breakthrough computing technology. At some point in the very near future, I might even be able to show you some of my work. We'll see.
    --

    +++ATH0
  172. Portrait of a narcissist by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    Okay! Let's see how well you fit the template, shall we?

    Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder

    A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior) Check!, need for admiration Check!, and lack of empathy Check!, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

    (1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance Check! (e.g., exaggerates achievements Check! and talents Check!, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements Check!)

    (2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success Check!, power, brilliance Check!, beauty, or ideal love

    (3) believes that he or she is "special" Check! and unique Check! and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people Check! Check! Check!(or institutions)

    (4) requires excessive admiration Check!

    (5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations Check!

    (6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends Eh? Maybe. No evidence of this.

    (7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others No evidence of this either either way, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    (8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her Check!

    (9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes Hahaha, check check check!

    Wow. I dunno. Maybe you should try some Wellbutrin.

    --

    +++ATH0
  173. Re:You are absurd, APK. Ah, tell us another lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This works on people like you, just facts.

    Just like it did on your fellow arstechnicans Jay Little and Jeremy Reimer at windowsitpro mag forums. It is a very good debate style, because it caught all of your arstechnica pals in lies like you have been caught here:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    Where is was shown that Jeremy Reimer is an email harasser who got caught, and tried to lie about it no less. Jeremy Reimer ended up having to move his osy website from his original hosting provider, on top of all else because of it, just as his friend Jay Little did. This must have really gotten to them, lol, because they tried it on apk first, and it instead, backfired on them, hahaha!

    (Jay Little, and Jeremy Reimer (arstechnicans all, home of the liar and loser blowhard online, lol and now you here at slashdot, and there is no arguing with the results or facts is there, starloser?) the ones who had their sites removed from their hosting providers and also got caught email harassing others as well no less))?

    See, at this point, above all else, nobody can trust or believe in you starkruzr. You've been caught lying with your own words. I actually feel bad for you, and mainly because you are not very intelligent and a lousy debater. Are you a girl, or boy? You are not sure yourself:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    "Okay, seriously. Let's drop the act. Okay? Yes? Let's quit pretending. I am quite male. I only said I was female to mess with your head." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @08:18PM (#18581257)

    You are such a liar, you just will not stop will you? StarKruzr from Staten Island?? You said it on other forums.

    StarKruzr
    Geek Apprentice
    On your being starkruzr and from Staten Island?
    Posts: 49
    From: Staten Island, NY, USA, Earth, Sol System
    Registered: Jul 2000

    That's from this site -> http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/Forum11/HTML /000009.html

    You're from staten island and named Jarrett, we already know this is your photo at this point in the url below, and if you note it's name? You see Jarett in that photo name.

    http://gallery.r3v3ng.net/albums/BoardyPhotos/jare tt_katey_maria.jpg

    Again: You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao. Though it may come as a shock to you, lol, you probably THINK you are a woman, because you surely act like one! You are a guy, or a liar... lol! You choose.

    AND THIS THREAD HERE SHOWS YOU ARE MATCHING AN EMAIL TO YOUR NAME starkruzr, to jarett

    http://www.opacity.us/search.php?q=starkruzr%40sta rkruzr.com&submit=search&where=comments&u=1#result s

    Posted by: Jarett
    Hi guys, Anyone know what her name is? starkruzr@starkruzr.com


    Man, You're a TOTAL liar starLOSER, who's been caught, and the arstechnica member trend and typical pattern continues, lol, BUSTED as a liar.

    Are you proud of this? Because if so, do not consider politics as a career. ROTFLMAO!

    If you do, I am tal

  174. Re:Portrait of a sidewalk psychologist, w/ no PhD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This works on people like you, just facts.

    Especially sidewalk psychologist's with delusions of grandeur in that field, lol, and no Phd! LOL, he just MUST have went to WebMD, lol... ROTFLMAO!

    Facts of your aberrant behaviour noted below (some truly hum dingers, lol), work, just like they did on your fellow arstechnicans Jay Little and Jeremy Reimer at windowsitpro mag forums. It is a very good debate style, because it caught all of your arstechnica pals in lies like you have been caught here:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    Where is was shown that Jeremy Reimer is an email harasser who got caught, and tried to lie about it no less. Jeremy Reimer ended up having to move his osy website from his original hosting provider, on top of all else because of it, just as his friend Jay Little did. This must have really gotten to them, lol, because they tried it on apk first, and it instead, backfired on them, hahaha!

    (Jay Little, and Jeremy Reimer (arstechnicans all, home of the liar and loser blowhard online, lol and now you here at slashdot, and there is no arguing with the results or facts is there, starloser?) the ones who had their sites removed from their hosting providers and also got caught email harassing others as well no less))?

    See, at this point, above all else, nobody can trust or believe in you starkruzr. You've been caught lying with your own words. I actually feel bad for you, and mainly because you are not very intelligent and a lousy debater. Are you a girl, or boy? You are not sure yourself:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    "Okay, seriously. Let's drop the act. Okay? Yes? Let's quit pretending. I am quite male. I only said I was female to mess with your head." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @08:18PM (#18581257)

    You are such a liar, you just will not stop will you? StarKruzr from Staten Island?? You said it on other forums.

    StarKruzr
    Geek Apprentice
    On your being starkruzr and from Staten Island?
    Posts: 49
    From: Staten Island, NY, USA, Earth, Sol System
    Registered: Jul 2000

    That's from this site -> http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/Forum11/HTML /000009.html

    You're from staten island and named Jarrett, we already know this is your photo at this point in the url below, and if you note it's name? You see Jarett in that photo name.

    http://gallery.r3v3ng.net/albums/BoardyPhotos/jare tt_katey_maria.jpg

    Again: You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao. Though it may come as a shock to you, lol, you probably THINK you are a woman, because you surely act like one! You are a guy, or a liar... lol! You choose.

    AND THIS THREAD HERE SHOWS YOU ARE MATCHING AN EMAIL TO YOUR NAME starkruzr, to jarett

    http://www.opacity.us/search.php?q=starkruzr%40sta rkruzr.com&submit=search&where=comments&u=1#result s

    Posted by: Jarett
    Hi guys, Anyone know what her name is? starkruzr@starkruzr.com


    Man, You're a TOTAL l

  175. StarLOSER, I am not apk, get it? Get over it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This works on people like you, just facts.

    Especially sidewalk psychologist's with delusions of grandeur in that field, lol, and no Phd! Do you have one in psychiatry or psychology?? No!

    Facts of your aberrant behaviour noted below (some truly hum dingers, lol), work, just like they did on your fellow arstechnicans Jay Little and Jeremy Reimer at windowsitpro mag forums. It is a very good debate style, because it caught all of your arstechnica pals in lies like you have been caught here:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    Where is was shown that Jeremy Reimer is an email harasser who got caught, and tried to lie about it no less. Jeremy Reimer ended up having to move his osy website from his original hosting provider, on top of all else because of it, just as his friend Jay Little did. This must have really gotten to them, lol, because they tried it on apk first, and it instead, backfired on them, hahaha!

    (Jay Little, and Jeremy Reimer (arstechnicans all, home of the liar and loser blowhard online, lol and now you here at slashdot, and there is no arguing with the results or facts is there, starloser?) the ones who had their sites removed from their hosting providers and also got caught email harassing others as well no less)?

    See, at this point, above all else, nobody can trust or believe in you starkruzr. You've been caught lying with your own words. I actually feel bad for you, and mainly because you are not very intelligent and a lousy debater. Are you a girl, or boy? You are not sure yourself:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    "Okay, seriously. Let's drop the act. Okay? Yes? Let's quit pretending. I am quite male. I only said I was female to mess with your head." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @08:18PM (#18581257)

    You are such a liar, you just will not stop will you? StarKruzr from Staten Island?? You said it on other forums.

    StarKruzr
    Geek Apprentice
    On your being starkruzr and from Staten Island?
    Posts: 49
    From: Staten Island, NY, USA, Earth, Sol System
    Registered: Jul 2000

    That's from this site -> http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/Forum11/HTML /000009.html

    You're from staten island and named Jarrett, we already know this is your photo at this point in the url below, and if you note it's name? You see Jarett in that photo name.

    http://gallery.r3v3ng.net/albums/BoardyPhotos/jare tt_katey_maria.jpg

    Again: You are a guy, or look like one, sorry to tell you, lol... NOT A WOMAN, even though you said you were, lol! You surely act like one, rotflmao. Though it may come as a shock to you, lol, you probably THINK you are a woman, because you surely act like one! You are a guy, or a liar... lol! You choose.

    AND THIS THREAD HERE SHOWS YOU ARE MATCHING AN EMAIL TO YOUR NAME starkruzr, to jarett

    http://www.opacity.us/search.php?q=starkruzr%40sta rkruzr.com&submit=search&where=comments&u=1#result s

    Posted by: Jarett
    Hi guys, Anyone know what her name is? starkruzr@starkruzr.com


    Man, You're a TOTAL

  176. I love cutting you down. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    It's so easy.

    --

    +++ATH0
  177. Moreover by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    Re:Portrait of a sidewalk psychologist, w/ no PhD!

    All I have to do is match your behavior to a list here, APK. No one needs a Ph.D. to do that.

    I would certainly need an advanced degree in psychiatry or psychology to determine how to treat you, of course. I have no education in psych whatsoever -- but I do know how to read, and the facts all point to you being a classic case of NPD.

    --

    +++ATH0
  178. You love cutting yourself down being caught lying. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read the subject line, because this worked everytime on arstechnica members like you, doing just as you are here, and it is just facts and your own words used against you, arstechnica member.

    Especially sidewalk psychologist's with delusions of grandeur in that field, lol, and no Phd! Do you have one in psychiatry or psychology?? No!

    Facts of your aberrant & antisocial behaviour noted below (some truly hum dingers, lol), work, just like they did on your fellow arstechnicans Jay Little and Jeremy Reimer at windowsitpro mag forums. It is a very good debate style, because it caught all of your arstechnica pals in lies like you have been caught here:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    Where is was shown that Jeremy Reimer is an email harasser who got caught, and tried to lie about it no less, as you have.

    Jeremy Reimer also ended up having to move his osy website from his original hosting provider, on top of all else because of it, just as his friend Jay Little did. This must have really gotten to them, lol, because they tried it on apk first, and it instead, backfired on them, hahaha!

    (Jay Little, and Jeremy Reimer (arstechnicans all, home of the liar and loser blowhard online, lol and now you here at slashdot another psycho-stalker from arstechnica trying to 'cut down apk' any way you can like some sick freak (evidenced below) since 2001 this has gone on from you people to he, and he has never started with you all, and there is no arguing with the results or facts is there on that account, starloser?)

    The same arstechnicans in Jeremy "no degree or cert. in comp. sci. or years of pro experience hands-on doing the job" Reimer (your hero and friend), and his sidekick the 'exchange expert' Jay Little (not), who had their sites removed from their hosting providers and also got caught email harassing others as well no less? You are just helping to prove apk's point.

    You arstechnica people have done this behind his back stuff cutting apk down or impersonating apk on your own site @ arstechnica and osy, and other sites so many times, you only give yourselves away each time.

    (& like you, others from arstechnica also have all been caught outright lying as well in the doing of bullcrap like you are doing in particular now starloser. He must have really gotten to you all, lol, which is why you have a arsware section @ all on your home website no less).

    Since 2001 (and apk has not bothered you all at your forums at arstechnica since no less) all the way to today in 2007, no less.

    That is sick, you know. You've all kept it up & at sites like techpowerup.com, ntcompatible.com, majorgeeks.com, 3dfiles.com, 2cpu.com, slashdot.com, techpowerup.com, osy, & more and were caught in it, yet not a 1 of you can show more you have done in this field than apk has (evidences below).

    See, at this point, above all else, nobody can trust or believe in you starkruzr. You've been caught lying with your own words. I actually feel bad for you, and mainly because you are not very intelligent and a lousy debater. Are you a girl, or boy? You are not sure yourself:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    "Okay, seriously. Let's drop the act. Okay? Yes? Let's quit pretending. I am quite male. I only said I was female to mess with your head." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @08:18PM (#18581257)

    You are such a liar, you just will not stop will you? Star

  179. You are a liar that has been caught, arstechnican by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read the subject line, because this worked everytime on arstechnica members like you, doing just as you are here, and it is just facts and your own words used against you, arstechnica member.

    Especially sidewalk psychologist's with delusions of grandeur in that field, lol, and no Phd! Do you have one in psychiatry or psychology?? No! This is all you are left with, and still are unable to answer a question since you cut others down, in what you have done better personally to show for it in this field versus apk since you see fit to cut him down, and pursue him like an internet psycho stalker (how do you like it being directed back @ you?). You have, zero, and you evade that question, any way you can because all you have is zero, and 'sidewalk psychologist' quack-like analysis, lol!

    Facts of your aberrant & antisocial behaviour noted below (some truly hum dingers, lol), work, just like they did on your fellow arstechnicans Jay Little and Jeremy Reimer at windowsitpro mag forums. It is a very good debate style, because it caught all of your arstechnica pals in lies like you have been caught here:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    Where is was shown that Jeremy Reimer is an email harasser who got caught, and tried to lie about it no less, as you have.

    Jeremy Reimer also ended up having to move his osy website from his original hosting provider, on top of all else because of it, just as his friend Jay Little did. This must have really gotten to them, lol, because they tried it on apk first, and it instead, backfired on them, hahaha!

    (Jay Little, and Jeremy Reimer (arstechnicans all, home of the liar and loser blowhard online, lol and now you here at slashdot another psycho-stalker from arstechnica trying to 'cut down apk' any way you can like some sick freak (evidenced below) since 2001 this has gone on from you people to he, and he has never started with you all, and there is no arguing with the results or facts is there on that account, starloser?))

    The same arstechnicans in Jeremy "no degree or cert. in comp. sci. or years of pro experience hands-on doing the job" Reimer (your hero and friend), and his sidekick the 'exchange expert' Jay Little (not), who had their sites removed from their hosting providers and also got caught email harassing others as well no less? You are just helping to prove apk's point.

    You arstechnica people have done this behind his back stuff cutting apk down or impersonating apk on your own site @ arstechnica and osy, and other sites so many times, you only give yourselves away each time.

    (& like you, others from arstechnica also have all been caught outright lying as well in the doing of bullcrap like you are doing in particular now starloser. He must have really gotten to you all, lol, which is why you have a arsware section @ all on your home website no less).

    Since 2001 (and apk has not bothered you all at your forums at arstechnica since no less) all the way to today in 2007, no less.

    That is sick, you know. You've all kept it up & at sites like techpowerup.com, ntcompatible.com, majorgeeks.com, 3dfiles.com, 2cpu.com, slashdot.com, techpowerup.com, osy, & more and were caught in it, yet not a 1 of you can show more you have done in this field than apk has (evidences below).

    See, at this point, above all else, nobody can trust or believe in you starkruzr. You've been caught lying with your own words. I actually feel bad for you, and mainly because you are not very intelligent and a lousy debater. Are you a girl, or boy? You are not sure yourself:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting

  180. That's very debated too by paladinwannabe2 · · Score: 1

    I'm guessing you grew up in the South- I don't think anyone north of the Mason-Dixie line would call U.S. soldiers stationed at Fort Sumter 'foreigners'. The Civil War was a big mess, and saying that it was fought over the State's right to seperate doesn't really give any clue as to why the states wanted to seperate. Saying that it was fought over slavery is at least as accurate- it's technically correct, but only gives part of the picture. The Civil War was started by a slaveholding south that felt increasingly alienated from its neighbors in the north- especially since the North was now powerful enough to elect a president that wasn't even on most of the Southern ballots. The South realized that if it stayed in the Union its way of life would slowly disapear- the North would make it hard (if not impossible) for slavery to expand, and without that expansion the South felt Slavery would surely die, and with it, their way of life. The South separated to protect their own interests, especially their interests with regards to slavery.

    Saying the Civil War was fought over 'the states' rights to separate' is like saying that WWI was fought over the Assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. The trigger for a war is rarely the cause of a war- it's just the straw that pushes the countries over the edge, or gives them the excuse they need to fight.

    --
    You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
  181. What the Christ are you talking about? by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    Where am I on that page?

    You're really losing it, Alex. Get help.

    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:What the Christ are you talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My name is not Alex, but from what I read here and did verify by looking at the url's that were posted, It appears to be a valid comparison of yourself and your arstechnica colleagues methods and doings online. I found it very similar in how you and Jay Little and Jeremy Reimer operate also. Especially considering you are also an arstechnica member and upon searching http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve (your forums), I see you in particular, while posting as starkruzr, have done more than your share of attempted putdowns and such of apk along with many arstechnica people. I find it funny that you are able to do so, because you must be blind to the fact he has run circles around 99% of you in terms of actual accomplishment in this field. You acted here and on arstechnica, just like your colleagues Jeremy 'no degree, no certification, and no pro experience in the field of computer science on all 3 accounts' Reimer (good name for him, it does fit the bill), and Jay Little. Like them it also appears you have been caught lying about yourself as well as others here from what I have read thus far. I am a slashdot reader who came upon this when it was discussed on forums I attend online and decided to investigate instead of listening to the opinions of others for or against you or apk. I must say that was I you, that from now on, I would pick your battles more wisely. You are trying to cut down somebody who is far in advance of yourself, and your fellow arstechnica forums board members, judging by how much he has done in the arena of computer science vs you arstechnica forums board people, including yourself. apk or his friends have asked you, each of you in the windowsitpro.com forums url, and yoursel here the same question he asked you. Each of you avoids answering at any cost, every time. Since you try to put him down and fail in the light of evidences he put up which are valid, it seems apk is correct on that much, that you all talk and criticize he and others rampantly, but only perhaps 1% of arstechnica forums people have actually done something worthwhile. I don't find that too impressive, considering your friend Jeremy Reimer basically called your pack 'the best and brightest' online. I must admit after reading this, I found you all quite otherwise, as well apk having caught all of whom were named here in this thread exchange in lies and other misdoings online. Interesting discussion. A pity he had you on the ropes the whole time I felt and that all you are left with is name calling and other dispersions on his character with no actual proofs. He on the other hand, had much of that in well ordered fashion, perhaps too much of it, because I nearly died laughing reading it all.

  182. Do you actually think by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    that I go around the internet looking for people to make fun of?

    I don't think you understand, Mr. Kowalski. You are a special case. Your complete lack of a sense of humor combined with how seriously you take yourself and your towering ego add up to endless lulz.

    Where did I "put you down" on Ars? I ask not because I doubt it happened, but because I'd like to look back and laugh about it.

    Also, I don't make a habit of making fun of anyone on Ars or anywhere else. I defy you to find a repetitive pattern of me abusing anyone other than you.

    --

    +++ATH0
    1. Re:Do you actually think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My question would be why abuse anyone at all. He never abused you, but you certainly did he starting all of your troubles here on this site. I am not apk, I keep telling you this, and have you considered it is yourself with the problem? What was this from you http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=161862&cid=135 32123 and this http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227563&cid= 18435701 here? Please, do not try to fool me with technicalities because you are indeed an arstechnica forums member and putting apk down as well as the people at myspace.com, and were caught lying here also. It is rather droll you put anyone in this science down while you yourself have not been able to accomplish anything worthwhile in this area of the sciences. The facts are there in plain print in those url's and their continuing child threads, and your own words, much as your lying stating you were a woman and then 7 days later here, admitting you are not and admitting you had lied. You ought to realize you make your entire forums appear poorly here. Have a nice day, bye.

    2. Re:Do you actually think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who made you judge, jury, and executioner of any people online, and most importantly those who have done some good work, or at least better and more than yourself? That takes a seriously rude and impossibly arrogant human being starkruzr. Especially considering those you criticize have done far more in this field than you probably ever will of any noteworthiness. Where did you get such a sense of arrogance to think you are anybody in this area of endeavour, in computer science? You were asked to show what you have done since you see fit to ridicule others, and you had nothing to show, and avoided that at all costs, just like what I also read about this rimer and little people from arstechnica like yourself. What givese you such an innate sense of entitlement that you have self appointed yourself to give others a difficult time online being their critic, when you yourself have done nothing at all in this field any person can try out or see and use? If you had that, I might have taken your critique more seriously, despite its childish nature. Grow up starkruzr. You need it.

  183. Yes, you are APK. Just give up. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    I don't deny that I'm an Arsian. Why would I? I'm quite proud of it; I've been a member for 8 years now. I've met many of them in person and concluded that most of them are great, interesting, funny people.

    I continue to troll you because it amuses me. You are an incomplete person, and it is fascinating to me to figure out what makes you tick. I enjoy watching you vary your responses, and seeing the incredibly limited creativity you have utterly fail you as you attempt to outsmart me.

    Another reason I continue is because I want to see if you have a breaking point. I want to see if, pushed to the limits of your ability to react, some kind of epiphany strikes you and you find a way to move on.

    Which I suppose makes all of this somewhat altruistic. Clearly you have some talent in IT, though you haven't been able to demonstrate anything you've done recently. Who knows -- maybe if you actually become able to make friends and develop a normal personality, you'll be able to move out of your dad's house. Anything's possible, you know.

    By the way, you replace "in this field" with "in this science" and "in this area of the sciences." Very clever, Alex. Can't imagine how I'd see through that one. Consider that perhaps there are memes floating around in your brain, such as "x is a mere student," "x hasn't accomplished anything," "I'm a Fortune 500 consultant," etc. etc. etc., that have become so strong and so self-reinforced that they are prohibiting you from developing as a person. You use the same talking points now as you did when I trolled you two years ago. There is virtually no difference between those two APKs.

    --

    +++ATH0
  184. Re:Yes, you are APK. Just give up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Clearly you have some talent in IT, though you haven't been able to demonstrate anything you've done recently." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Tuesday April 03, @08:24PM (#18597513)

    APK is no longer actively a shareware/freeware author, and has not been since 2003 (or so he told us at techpowerup.com forums). And, what is this? You think he has talent??

    He can and has demonstrated some of what he has done, list is below: SO, we ask YOU again - what have you ever done we can see for comparison's sake? Nothing.

    Also, StarLoser the arstechnican, why are you such a liar? See here:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    "Okay, seriously. Let's drop the act. Okay? Yes? Let's quit pretending. I am quite male. I only said I was female to mess with your head." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @08:18PM (#18581257)

    You have another think coming. ROTFLMAO, and you called others mentally troubled here, and yet YOU starloser, said that? LOL!

    "I continue to troll you because it amuses me. You are an incomplete person, and it is fascinating to me to figure out what makes you tick. I enjoy watching you vary your responses, and seeing the incredibly limited creativity you have utterly fail you as you attempt to outsmart me." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Tuesday April 03, @08:24PM (#18597513)

    Where is your Phd in psychology or psychiatry? Do you have one to make assessments like that?? No, you do not.

    And, since all you can do is troll others (since you think this makes you something special in this area, computer sciences), has anyone ever told you that you are a sick puppy??

    As far as "limited creativity", you are the one unable to show anything you have done of worth in this field anyone here can verify or test. You are full of it, and are the limited one, prove otherwise, show us things you've done that are better than the list provided here:

    QUOTE APK FROM THIS URL:

    http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?s=03e 21eb2b15e283d8688ff3338144957&t=25617&page=3&highl ight=aufrusten

    WINDOWS NT-Magazine (forerunner of today's .NET magazine) 1997 (iirc, Oct. issue pg. 83) issue review by Mr. John Enck, a technical editor of theirs for SuperCache & SuperDisk by EEC Systems (now SuperSpeed.com - first part was writing up an article featured on their corp. website alongside Mr. Enck no less, about the technical effective uses of Ramdisks, & the latter was on PAID CONTRACT to improve the mathematics & algorithm for tuning their SuperCache product w/ a programmatic addon they shipped w/ their product, & now is incorporated into the main program itself (Mr. Eric Dickman is their CEO iirc, & offered me a job w/ them back in 2003, but life took me to NYC instead of BOSTON) -

    SuperSpeed.com ARE A CERTIFIED Microsoft Partner you know, by the by, starloser.

    This same set of work years later also landed apk a spot for SuperDisk/SuperVolume being a finalist in the Tech-Ed 2002 show, in its hardest category:

    Boosting SQLServer Performance, the toughest category there is at tech-ed.


    The work done for wares that took ideas on ramdisks to a finalist with EEC Systems/SuperSpeed.com in the HARDEST category there was, SQLServer performance enhancement, as well as doing work to boost their SuperCache II product to up to 40% better than its stock performance on a paid contract in commercial wares

  185. Yes, you are APK. Oh nooo, everyone is apk now lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seek medical help starloser. You paranoia and lies shown you have told in quotes of you is too far gone. Not everyone replying here is apk. Do you have actual proof any of them are apk, instead of just speculation and innuendo? No you do not. Much like you lacked evidence of any accomplishments in this field though you cut down apk, myspace, and others rampantly, and much like how you lack a doctorate in medicine, psychology, or psychiatry yet you think are some authority in those areas. Just like Jeremy "the fake" Reimer (who lacks degrees in computer science, or even A+ certifications let alone MCSE, and who lacks professional hands on experience as a network engineer or software engineer, yet you consider him an authority in this field, lol), you too lack credibility for your lies mostly, and yes, also your lack of ability to show us anything showing you know anything in the field of computers at all imo. I do not think you have a degree in this field at this point like you have said here also, because I now know you are defintely a liar. An arstechnica liar like Reimer. Go figure, hahaha, birds of a feather do flock together at arstechnica (the home of the liar and loser online).

  186. Re:Yes, you are APK. Just give up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Clearly you have some talent in IT, though you haven't been able to demonstrate anything you've done recently." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Tuesday April 03, @08:24PM (#18597513)

    That is strange, he has this program (and it is good):

    http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/389/foowhatev ermakesgooglehappy.html

    I find it rather odd you say that above about apk, especially after you said this here about him kicking off this trouble you are having with he and his friends where he was modded up +4 for his comments about computer science curricula vs. you being modded down to -1 here:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=161862&cid=135 32123

    "No one listen to this guy. He spent several months on Ars Technica trying to convince everyone he was some kind of super programmer, but it fell apart pretty fast when it became clear that he actually didn't know his ass from his elbow." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Sunday September 11, @12:42PM (#13532123)

    Are you sure you know your ass from your elbow? I mean, you're a known liar, first of all and in your own words here:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    "Okay, seriously. Let's drop the act. Okay? Yes? Let's quit pretending. I am quite male. I only said I was female to mess with your head." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @08:18PM (#18581257)

    Nobody can trust you at all here or elsewhere starloser.

    You are toast as far as your believability as a person, and credibility in the area of computer science also, because you have not done anything like the list below though you cut that person down as you did above!

    All of this, you only did to yourself, here on these forums, shooting yourself down via lies.

    You truly are just like Jeremy "no degree, cert., or professional hands on years of experience in software engineering or network engineering" Reimer did here:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    Considering apk's done this list, vs. yourself with nothing to show for it, though you try to cut down apk, myspace.com, & others:

    A QUOTE APK FROM THIS URL:


    http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?s=03e 21eb2b15e283d8688ff3338144957&t=25617&page=3&highl ight=aufrusten

    WINDOWS NT-Magazine (forerunner of today's .NET magazine) 1997 (iirc, Oct. issue pg. 83) issue review by Mr. John Enck, a technical editor of theirs for SuperCache & SuperDisk by EEC Systems (now SuperSpeed.com - first part was writing up an article featured on their corp. website alongside Mr. Enck no less, about the technical effective uses of Ramdisks, & the latter was on PAID CONTRACT to improve the mathematics & algorithm for tuning their SuperCache product w/ a programmatic addon they shipped w/ their product, & now is incorporated into the main program itself (Mr. Eric Dickman is their CEO iirc, & offered me a job w/ them back in 2003, but life took me to NYC instead of BOSTON) -

    SuperSpeed.com ARE A CERTIFIED Microsoft Partner you know, by the by, star

  187. Move out of your dad's house first. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1
    THIS is utterly fascinating!

    APK is no longer actively a shareware/freeware author, and has not been since 2003


    WELL! Clearly this means you have been entirely idle for the past 4 years, spiralling into a desperate whirlpool of friendless, jobless depression!

    Because EVERYONE knows that if you can't cite software you've written, you're totally worthless as a human being and unfit to judge whether or not someone else's accomplishments are of any merit.

    Right, Alex?
    --

    +++ATH0
  188. You've been idle your entire life (quit lying 1st) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You haven't been able to demonstrate anything you have done in the arena of computer sciences, your entire life fool, lol, yet tell others "do more for us lately"!

    You also always lack proofs of your statements starloser, yet make all sorts of bold lies.

    Do you realize what an ass you are, starloser? See here:

    "Clearly you have some talent in IT, though you haven't been able to demonstrate anything you've done recently." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Tuesday April 03, @08:24PM (#18597513)

    That is strange, apk has this program out there now (and it is good, since he is so idle,(from you the 'alleged grad school student', who lies lol and cannot be trusted)):

    http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/389/foowhatev ermakesgooglehappy.html

    I find it quite odd you say that above about apk, especially after you said this here about him in the url below, kicking off this trouble you are having with he and his friends where he was modded up +4 for his comments about computer science curricula vs. you being modded down to -1 here:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=161862&cid=135 32123

    "No one listen to this guy. He spent several months on Ars Technica trying to convince everyone he was some kind of super programmer, but it fell apart pretty fast when it became clear that he actually didn't know his ass from his elbow." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Sunday September 11, @12:42PM (#13532123)

    Are you sure you know your ass from your elbow? Can you make up your mind?? Evidently not, and you defintely cannot tell truths either. I mean, you're a known liar, first of all and in your own words here:

    "Also, I never said I was from Staten Island. You did. I never said I was the girl in that picture either, you did." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Thursday March 29, @06:16PM (#18536049)

    I never said you were a girl, YOU did, lol! Here is the posting where you did:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=227475&cid=184 94155

    "Okay, seriously. Let's drop the act. Okay? Yes? Let's quit pretending. I am quite male. I only said I was female to mess with your head." - by StarKruzr (74642) on Monday April 02, @08:18PM (#18581257)

    Nobody can trust you at all here or elsewhere starloser.

    You are toast as far as your believability as a person, and credibility in the area of computer science also, because you have not done anything like the list below though you cut that person down as you did above!

    All of this, you only did to yourself, here on these forums, shooting yourself down via lies. You keep saying apk lives in his father's home, but do you have proof of this? No. Just more lies is all you can come up with, lol.

    You truly are just like Jeremy "no degree, cert., or professional hands on years of experience in software engineering or network engineering" Reimer did here:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=190#feedbackAnchor

    That is where documented evidence about Jeremy Reimer and Jay Little exists online (unlike you since you have zero, along w/ your accusations) were both caught email harassing apk and others, and had their websites removed by their hosting providers as well. Ah, the price paid, lol! They tried that on apk first, and instead, ahahaha, it backfired on them, and happened to them.

    Hilarious arstechnica clowns, with no visible accomplishments in this field of any worth or note, like yourself. Lying, lazy, and big talking birds of a feather, do flock together: At arstechnica, hehehe!

    Also, since you say he i

  189. I suppose by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    repeating the same thing over and over again is your way of saying "I'm tired and don't feel like arguing with you anymore, but still want to pretend I 'won,'" isn't it, Alex?

    Sadly, you've already lost, and lost days and days ago.

    Bye, APK. Until next time your retarditude amuses me, of course...

    --

    +++ATH0