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Is a Laser Data Link 1.5 Million Kilometers Feasible?

An anonymous reader writes "On the Canary Islands last week, a team from Oerlikon Space demonstrated the feasibility of a laser link across a distance of 1.5 million kilometers for the first time ever. In the future, laser links like this one will be able to transmit data across huge distances through the universe far more rapidly and efficiently than is possible using conventional radio links today."

304 comments

  1. Never saw this coming by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Who would have thought that light could travel such a long distance?

    In all seriousness, the problem is not the knowledge a laser can travel that far; its whether you can create precise enough targeting equipment.
    A radio signal might be more of a splatter, but at least if you point it "over there" with enough power behind it, it will get there.

    As they say their simple hilltop to hilltop test failed because of weather conditions, whats going to happen when they do put 'scopes at the lagrange points?

    "Oh sorry, we can't get the data today because its cloudy"

    Back onto the radio front, we have Voyager 1 which is 15 billion miles away, proven with radio, that would seem good enough for me.

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:Never saw this coming by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 3, Informative

      Correction:

      Voyager is 15 billion kilometres not miles as stated (about 9 billion miles)

      http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/weekly-reports/index.htm

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    2. Re:Never saw this coming by WormholeFiend · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm assuming that in space, the problem will not be weather conditions, but "aim"

    3. Re:Never saw this coming by erroneus · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm not sure the space-technology people will be using "aim." If anything, I'd suspect they'd lean to something OSS like "Pidgin."

    4. Re:Never saw this coming by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

      Are the scopes going to be sending the data to themselves or will they be expected to transit it back to earth?

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    5. Re:Never saw this coming by phil+reed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Back onto the radio front, we have Voyager 1 which is 15 billion miles away, proven with radio, that would seem good enough for me. Yeah, but what's the data rate?
      --

      ...phil
      "For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
    6. Re:Never saw this coming by Neo_piper · · Score: 1

      Not to mention routing air traffic around signal stations.
      And speaking of "Splatter" how (I'll put this gently) "nature proof" are those transceivers?

    7. Re:Never saw this coming by mastershake_phd · · Score: 1

      Back onto the radio front, we have Voyager 1 which is 15 billion miles away, proven with radio, that would seem good enough for me.

      Yeah, but what's the data rate?

      14.4?

    8. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yeah, but what's the data rate?
      About 299,792,458 m / s.
    9. Re:Never saw this coming by ricosalomar · · Score: 5, Funny
      ...proven with radio, that would seem good enough for me.

      I agree. We should stop all development and research in this area immediately.

      Is there anything else that people are working on that you don't see a need to improve? They should have checked with you first, I guess.

    10. Re:Never saw this coming by powerlord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and what sort of receiver setup is needed?

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    11. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Yeah, but what's the data rate?


      The data rate is fine. It is the ping times that are a killer.

    12. Re:Never saw this coming by vertinox · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As they say their simple hilltop to hilltop test failed because of weather conditions, whats going to happen when they do put 'scopes at the lagrange points?

      Huh? The logical thing do to would be have the laser communicators in orbit, and the communication from ground to the laser satellites would be via the conventional means. If its cloudy in your town, then the satellite can talk to another town which isn't cloudy and you can use fiber to talk the rest of the way.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    13. Re:Never saw this coming by PieSquared · · Score: 1

      They'll send data to communications satellites which will use radio to send it back to earth?

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      Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
    14. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which is bloody obvious had the GP thought about it for one fucking millisecond.

    15. Re:Never saw this coming by CommunistHamster · · Score: 0

      Voyager 1 has 70kb of memory (or storage, I can never remember which) so the bandwidth of the data link must be less than or equal to that.

    16. Re:Never saw this coming by SnoopJeDi · · Score: 1

      I guess the introduction of the Meter as a datatype is one of the features of that new Leopard thing?

    17. Re:Never saw this coming by moderatorrater · · Score: 1

      There's also the little matter of, well, matter. Dust clouds, intervening meteors, etc, that would degrade the quality of the signal. The problem with radio isn't that it's not reliable, it's that it's bandwidth is lower and it can't be aimed as precisely. With the proper optical equipment, we could shoot a laser from Alpha Centauri that hit the earth and nothing but the earth. Doing the same with a radio wave would be difficult at best.

      However, as you said, radio's doing just fine for us right now. I imagine radio being the old reliable, the copper wire to laser's fibre optic, as it were.

    18. Re:Never saw this coming by Ron+Harwood · · Score: 3, Funny

      Either way, your ping times are gonna suck. ;)

    19. Re:Never saw this coming by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why? And, basically the same question, less than 70kb per what?

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    20. Re:Never saw this coming by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but what's the data rate?

      The fastest interplanetary radio link 1977 had to offer!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    21. Re:Never saw this coming by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention your latency. FPS are gonna suck on this net...

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    22. Re:Never saw this coming by ztransform · · Score: 1

      In all seriousness, the problem is not the knowledge a laser can travel that far; its whether you can create precise enough targeting equipment. A radio signal might be more of a splatter, but at least if you point it "over there" with enough power behind it, it will get there.

      Actually the real problems will be error-correction and error-detection. When a signal takes 3 minutes or more to arrive at the destination one would hope it is all intact because it is going to take a long time to re-request a packet. Can you imagine trying to set TTL on your PC to handle a TCP stream with a destination minutes away (you'd probably run out of memory). Well obviously TCP is not the right protocol for this kind of stream. But no matter what protocol is used there is no simple way for the sender to KNOW that the data arrived at the destination in any short period of time.

      The problem of delays in verification could be removed with using advanced forward-error-correction (FEC), but again, this is not perfect. And the amount of FEC required would no doubt be significant to deal with the occasional asteroid passing through the beam.

    23. Re:Never saw this coming by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

      Thats all well and good, but you just doubled the cost of a mission by requiring it has its own in orbit receiver.

      Granted if they get a generic high bandwidth sat in orbit then for all other missions it would work (like Mars Odyssey and MGS do for the rovers when direct connection is not available).

      It will be stuck in a chicken and egg situation until then.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    24. Re:Never saw this coming by dvhirt · · Score: 0
      According to the TFA, the new data type is Bible Per Seconds.

      At this speed, it would take a mere two seconds to transmit the entire text of the Bible
    25. Re:Never saw this coming by slashdotmsiriv · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Back onto the radio front, we have Voyager 1 which is 15 billion miles away, proven with radio, that would seem good enough for me"

      The issue is not whether you get data at all, but whether you can transmit at broadband speeds. I am pretty sure that at this point of
      its flight Voyager does nothing else but send a few byte pings every once in a while.

      The problems laser links would solve would be in the order of streaming HD video from Mars to Earth.

    26. Re:Never saw this coming by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1
      NASA already does this with the DSN (Deep Space Network, Google/Wikipedia it), although they use the DSN to ensure they can always communication with objects in space no matter what the orientation the Earth is at that moment.

      Running this laser communications system at each DSN ground station, and taking advantage of the ground communications links already in place would be a boon considering the limited bandwidth currently available via radio-only communications systems.

    27. Re:Never saw this coming by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      That's what UDP is for chief =) All joking aside, a whole new set of protocols are going to need to be created to deal with the inherent latency due to that good ol' speed o' light limitation.

    28. Re:Never saw this coming by Otto · · Score: 1

      So, the measurement is in hbps (half bibles per second)?

      --
      - Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    29. Re:Never saw this coming by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      10 xmit "hello, world"
      20 goto 10

      ...would only take a few bytes of memory but would transmit as fast as the CPU would allow it. Put another way, there's zero correlation between amount of storage and required bandwidth.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    30. Re:Never saw this coming by rspress · · Score: 1

      While Voyager 1 is 15 billion miles away the amount of power from its radio reaching the antennas here on earth is barely noticeable and takes some of the biggest radio dishes to pick up. The amount of data that could pass through that connection is meager at best. It is one thing to hear the signal but quite another to get any data from it.

      Laser ground to air stations do not make much sense but an in orbit laser communication system does. If we plan to go to Mars we will need a fat data pipe to and from the spacecraft and lasers make the most sense here. Not only would it provide audio, video and data links between earth and the spacecraft it could give the crew internet access, TV channels from earth for entertainment, music channels from earth which could be important for such a long trip.

      They can always have radio as a backup and they can use radio where it is best used, between ground and air stations.

    31. Re:Never saw this coming by CubicleView · · Score: 1

      It would probably have to be a big mellon, depending on how far out it intersected the beam. I suspect that at that distance it would hit the solar system and nothing but the solar system, oh and lots of stuff after that as well.

    32. Re:Never saw this coming by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I was thinking about that. What you could do is put a receiver in orbit, and then rebroadcast as in radio. You would have more power available(solar) and the closer distance means you could get a high data transmission rate;considerably higher then the current rate.

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    33. Re:Never saw this coming by Cecil · · Score: 1

      Not to mention routing air traffic around signal stations.

      Yeah because that's difficult. Just add it to the already-long list of "fly within 5 miles of this building and you will be shot down by F-16s"

    34. Re:Never saw this coming by mcmonkey · · Score: 1

      Hopefully it will come with a warning label for any species between us and the receiver.

      "Do not look into data stream with remaining 42 eyes."

    35. Re:Never saw this coming by Kinthelt · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's okay. Even NASA confuses SI with Imperial measurements.

      --

      "Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

    36. Re:Never saw this coming by iRegister · · Score: 1

      5 seconds for light to travel from one end to another...
      http://www.google.com/search?q=1500000+km+%2F+c

      --
      A fast cowboy since 2007
    37. Re:Never saw this coming by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Why? And, basically the same question, less than 70kb per what?

      Why does a chunk of data need to be <= the memory size of Voyager??? Are you serious?

      Not to sound flippant, but because any more than that and it wouldn't be able to hold it.

      Not 70kb per anything. You get 70kb, that's all. No more.

      If (as the grandparent says) the probe has a total of 70kb of memory, then the total amount of data you can have in memory is ... 70kb at any given time.

      I believe he's saying that you can only fit so much into a container. If you have a small container, it's only gonna hold so much.

      Maybe I'm mis-reading both your post and the grandparent. But, if it's something as simple as "once the memory is full we can't add any more", then I'm not sure what you're asking.

      (Note: he was responding to a post which specifically referenced voyager ... laser data streams in general are not limited to Voyager sized packets. :-P Only Voyager is limited by the memory size of Voyager, but it's definitely limited by that. Void where prohibited, prohibited where void. YMMV.)

      Cheers
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    38. Re:Never saw this coming by kd5ujz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your "ping" time is a measure of latency, in milliseconds.

      --
      -William
      God is everything science has yet to explain.
    39. Re:Never saw this coming by AttillaTheNun · · Score: 1

      That's crazy talk - no planet is beyond the reach of the RIAA and MPAA lawyers, who will quickly put an end to such nonsense.

    40. Re:Never saw this coming by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

      So the probe takes 70kB (minus overhead) worth of readings from its sensors, then sends them out. Then it repeats the process, never having more than 70kB of data in its memory. The question is, how fast can it do that? If it can accumulate and send a 70kB chunk in 1/10th of a second, then we have 700kB/s of bandwidth. If it takes a week to fill up that memory and then transmit it then...

      PS: the actual transmit bandwidth is likely higher than described here, since it probably takes less time to transmit the data than to collect it, but this sets a lower bound.

    41. Re:Never saw this coming by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      bps

      --
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    42. Re:Never saw this coming by Khyber · · Score: 1

      When was Voyager made? Oh yea, we didn't have technology that advanced.

      As it is, Radio is better for distance communications whereas laser is better over shorter distances.

      See, the big issue is even though we can fire a nice pinpoint laser here from earth, by the time it reaches Pluto the beam diameter has expanded to something about the size of Texas. Since there is no longer a focused beam, now it's just a scatter, it's nearly impossible for something to pick up the light pulses amongst background light from other stars. The amount of power needed to push light such long distances without major interference/obstruction is just too prohibitive.

      So we use radio waves. We don't need nearly the power to achieve the distance, and they're still just as fast for the most part (both run light speed, since they're both electromagnetic waves.)

      And it's less than 70kilobits per second, just FYI.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    43. Re:Never saw this coming by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Aim is an identical issue with both radio and lasers.

      Unlike radio stations, most point to point links (for example, satellite uplinks) use a focus beam. That's what the big dish is for. The tighter the beam, the less area your transmitted power is spread over and the greater your received signal strength. The downside, of course, is that a tighter beam has to be aimed that much more accurately. As a point of reference, most geosynchronous satellites are spaced about 2 degrees apart, which requires a terresterial pointing accuracy of about 1 or 2 degrees. On the other hand, the Arecibo radio telescope has a beam width of a few thousands of a degree.

      A laser naturally comes out with a narrow beamwidth, while a radio signal takes a little more work. But the beam width of both can be manipulated to where you need them to be, and the issues of signal strength versus pointing accuracy are identical in both cases.

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
    44. Re:Never saw this coming by awehttam · · Score: 3, Informative
      http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/index.html:

      "Uplink communications is via S-band (16-bits/sec command rate) while an X-band transmitter provides downlink telemetry at 160 bits/sec normally and 1.4 kbps for playback of high-rate plasma wave data. All data are transmitted from and received at the spacecraft via the 3.7 meter high-gain antenna (HGA)."

    45. Re:Never saw this coming by profplump · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that xmit() has a bandwidth greater than the CPU. In long-range communications equipment that seems unlikely at best.

    46. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats all well and good, but you just doubled the cost of a mission by requiring it has its own in orbit receiver.

      That's a well and good argument until you realize that many land-based missions already have an orbiter and lander together. Spirit and Opportunity, for example, communicate with the Mars Odyssey probe in orbit which relays the transmission back to Earth.

      More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Exploration_Rover#Communication_2
    47. Re:Never saw this coming by rudeboy1 · · Score: 1

      No offense, but you're just wrong.
          As you mentioned, radio and light are all part of the same EM spectrum. It is true that a typical optical device (like a telescope) which is set up to survey the entire visible spectrum would not be able to pick out a pinpoint laser ouput from a millin miles away. No chance in hell. However, in laser communications, the receiver is not a telescope, but a more specialized instrument, surveying a very limited band of the spectrum. White or UV light seen from a star would not be seen, similar to how our eyes do not pick up infrared. You are somewhat correct about the focus of a light beam spreading out over time, but laser mechanics work a bit differently, and the spread is a matter that can be calculated through a little math.

      --
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    48. Re:Never saw this coming by StickyWidget · · Score: 1
      Even better would be to put a system in at the South Pole. Cloud cover and atmospheric interference there is small, it's already in an area where it can view a great degree of the sky, and we already have a research station and several telescopes proven in that area. Plus, it's currently cheaper than putting another massive piece of ridiculously advanced and finicky technology into space where we have to rely on cowboys strapped to rockets to repair or retrofit it.

      Win-Win.

      ~Sticky
      /They call them space-cowboys, satellite-wranglers, and homo-nauts.
      //*Nods to the Brokeback boys..*

    49. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're forgetting acquisition. If I'm acquiring data at 50kb/s and have no storage then I have to transmit at 50kb/s no matter how infrequently I acquire data. If I have storage then I can transmit at 1b/s or 1MB/s as long as I don't acquire data so frequently, or infrequently, as to overrun or underrun my buffer.

      I assume that's what the original poster had somewhere in mind.

    50. Re:Never saw this coming by Splab · · Score: 1

      Would hate to be called on site early Saturday morning and have to travel across the south pole to get to my servers.

    51. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No no, hbps is "happy babies per second." You forgot to capitalize the B, common mistake.

    52. Re:Never saw this coming by fnord_uk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here they are, at the home of the Delay Tolerant Networking Research Group:
      http://www.dtnrg.org/

      Whilst the Delay Tolerant Network Architecture (a store-and-forward overlay network, see RFC 4838) and Bundling Protocol are mainly there to solve different problems (mostly the potential lack of a known end-to-end path) the Licklider Transmission Protocol (LTP), is designed primarily to run efficiently over single link-hops with considerable round-trip times (typically introduced by light speed constraints) but also deals with bandwidth asymmetry and mixed reliable or best effort delivery.

      Deploying BP over LTP on these kind of links seems to be the plan. Then BP can extend from the orbital node down to the ground over TCP or SCPS-TP (http://www.scps.org/) or similar. BP is designed to have a shim-like Convergence Layer (CL) to interface with the whatever stack underpins it on any specific link. The open source reference implementation (Apache 2.0 licence) currently supports TCP and Bluetooth (Linux only). I've implemented a mostly working CL for AX.25 which I hope to try out using ham radio gear soon.

      --
      In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not.
    53. Re:Never saw this coming by Romanmir+Cumelon · · Score: 1

      Other than the obvious cost, which could be managed anyway, what's to stop us from setting up a laser repeating station at or before the point that the signal degrades to uselessness?

      As far as the cost management goes, we wouldn't necessarily need to transmit to (to use your example,) Pluto to begin with. But if we started with trying to transmit to somewhere closer, say, Mars, then we (in theory,) shouldn't need as many laser repeaters to bridge the gap. And we should be able to keep the repeater in a solar-synchronous position fairly easily. This seems like it would allow for faster transmissions.

      Once the signal got to the other location it could be diverted to the end point fairly easily using standard radio transmission.

      --
      I can't believe you cited Total Recall as a reliable source of science. I just. Wow. I'm flabbergasted.
    54. Re:Never saw this coming by magarity · · Score: 1

      Are the scopes going to be sending the data to themselves
       
      That would be a neat trick indeed; L1 and L2 are one directly away from and one directly towards the Sun from Earth. Earth makes a pretty good laser light blocker.

    55. Re:Never saw this coming by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Since lasers are not perfect (ie: they DO spread out over great distances), I would guess that once you get a many million miles away, you have a pattern closer to the size of a backetball, then eventually a Buick, instead of the size of a pea. This still requires hellatious aim, but not quite as perfect as it seems at first glance.

      Anyone got the math for how big a laser point would become at the Moon, Mars, and a couple other interesting places?

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    56. Re:Never saw this coming by Ptero+Duck · · Score: 1

      Voyager's radio data rate has been reduced several times throughout the course of its journey. At 15 billion miles, the rate is now down to 1.4 kiloBits/S. Even at Saturn's distance it was only 44.8 kB/S. Yes, radio is a proven method for space communications, but the bandwidth available at light frequencies is magnitudes greater. That radio is "Good enough for me" sounds awfully close to the infamous Bill Gates remark that 640K is enough computer memory for anyone.

    57. Re:Never saw this coming by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Also, your detector does not have to be the size of a pea. it can be the size of a football field if you want.

      A cheap laser pointer will be the size of a basketball when you shine it 100m or so. I assume you would use a high quality laser with high quality optics when you fire your probe a billion miles.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    58. Re:Never saw this coming by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Funny

      Not to mention the round trip time it's going to take for data to get back and forth over this link.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    59. Re:Never saw this coming by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 1
      Your estimates of how much a laser spreads out are way off. See, for example, http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=1427&search=1 - 1.2 mradian beamwidth, or 0.07 degrees. For every 1000 meters traveled, the beam spot increases by 1.2 meters.

      The best way to think of it is to ignore spot size and all that. A beam with a 0.07 degree width needs to be pointed with an accuracy of 0.07 degrees or better.

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
    60. Re:Never saw this coming by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Bible per seconds? Is that a lolcat thing?

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    61. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well you could also fix this by setting up a redundant set of transmissions. If your target is going to have a latency of a couple of minutes you could transmit data x a couple of times so that the if for whatever reason the first or second instance of the data is bad there will be a third copy sent. This will increase the amount of data sent but will help ensure correct data rather than having to depend on the target to yell back that the data is corrupted. It's kind of like if you set up a network based on UDP and for every n bytes you send you send redundant packets of those n bytes. In the best case scenario those extra packets won't be needed but in the event of a bad route you have 10 chances to recover good data. This would work best for high latency networks.

    62. Re:Never saw this coming by rspress · · Score: 1

      I don't know, the RIAA sure seems scared to go after any organized crime group that is mass duplicating their discs and selling them on the street for a few bucks a pop. The mass duplication is so bad that pirate copies are flooding into legit channels. If you buy 10 discs at the record store chances are at least one of them is a bootleg copy. Of course for the RIAA it is a lot safer to go after Ma and Pa and Junior for downloading a copy of Brittany Spears latest trash.

    63. Re:Never saw this coming by onearmfreak · · Score: 1

      But you're not going to get streaming porn to the moon with radio waves. And who's gonna colonize the moon if there's no streaming porn?

    64. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you could have just said.... 10 lbs shit.... 5 lb bag.... so on and so forth.

    65. Re:Never saw this coming by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      With the proper optical equipment, we could shoot a laser from Alpha Centauri that hit the earth and nothing but the earth.

      It's not quite so easy as you make it sound. You'd need a telescope with an imaging resolution of 32 microarcseconds, so you're talking about a primary mirror 4 km in diameter. That might be technically feasible in the moderate term future, but getting it to Alpha Centauri might be a bit of a challenge.

      OK, lets say you got it there. Now you have to point it with that accuracy at where the earth is going to be when the laser gets there. The relative velocity of Alpha Centauri and the sun is 32.1 km/s and we might know that to a precision of about 0.1 km/s. So in the 4.365 years that the laser beam travels, the uncertainty in the position of the sun is about 14 million kilometers or over 1000 earth diameters. In other words, you missed.

      But our precision in measuring velocity is continually increasing, so lets assume that somehow we've determined the relative velocity with perfect accuracy. Even so, there is the uncertainty in the distance to Alpha Centauri. Alpha Centauri is 4.365±0.007 light years away. In 0.007 years the relative velocity of the Sun and Alpha Centauri adds up to 7.1 million kilometers or over 500 earth diameters. Add in the orbital velocity of the earth around the sun, and you've probably missed by 10 million kilometers.

      Maybe you'll want a more powerful laser and a smaller telescope to blanket the inner solar system rather than trying to target a specific planet.

    66. Re:Never saw this coming by modecx · · Score: 1

      Conversely, (purely for instance, and not related to any spacecraft) if if you design a system capable of acquiring and transmitting 1 megabit of information per second, it doesn't matter how you chunk it up; you're still acquiring 1 megabit of information per second, because that's the way it's designed. If you had a buffer of only 80 kilobits, it means that if you want to transmit 1 megabit per second, the process will completely fill and empty the buffer a little over twelve times per second. That kind of cycle time is certainly not unheard of!

      It's like the Ethernet frames. The maximum data per frame is 1500 bytes (not counting header, checksum or modern jumbo frames)--which is a fraction of the total memory the voyager spacecraft had--about 1/55th, specifically; who knows how much of that was actually used for data acquisition, processing, etc.

      The lesson here is that the only thing which determines overall data rate is how many times PER SECOND the cycle happens at! Even with a MTU of only 1500 bytes, Ethernet networks are capable of passing many millions of bits per second.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    67. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that, but the data compression method will be "l33t"

    68. Re:Never saw this coming by ztransform · · Score: 1

      Did you not get my comment about Forward Error Correction? Perhaps I should have said that I'd studied Electrical Engineering, and then subsequently explained that Forward Error Correction is the application of principles that add redundancy to information so that errors can be corrected. Duplicating information is a form of Forward Error Correction. Please please please look it up before correcting somebody about something you don't understand.

    69. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      70kb ought to be enough for anyone...

    70. Re:Never saw this coming by Gospodin · · Score: 2, Funny

      They'll just have to up the power on those lasers. A lot.

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    71. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They tried that actually, it was a dismal failure, it turns out that without the earth's magnetic core the pigeons lost all navigational ability and flew into the sun. They did, however, prove that data-carrier-pigeons can fly 15 million km through airless space if you throw them hard enough.

    72. Re:Never saw this coming by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

      Who would have thought that light could travel such a long distance?

      pft. Next you'll be suggesting crazy stuff like, "it travels the fastest speed calculable".

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    73. Re:Never saw this coming by GigG · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Just as long as they don't mount them on sharks.

      --
      Is buying a Harley Davidson as your first motorcycle since you were 16 at age 49 a midlife crisis issue?
    74. Re:Never saw this coming by wwphx · · Score: 3, Informative

      The laser that my wife blasts the moon with on a regular basis starts at 3.5 meters here and I've heard is over 2km when it hits the moon. I have no idea how big it is when it finally bounces back.

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
    75. Re:Never saw this coming by kd5ujz · · Score: 1

      Your ping is round trip time, It is kind of hard to time something if you do not get a reply.

      --
      -William
      God is everything science has yet to explain.
    76. Re:Never saw this coming by evilviper · · Score: 1

      its whether you can create precise enough targeting equipment.

      At 32GHz, it's not like aiming current equipment is like putting up a TV antenna.

      A radio signal might be more of a splatter, but at least if you point it "over there" with enough power behind it, it will get there.

      That "enough power" part has been a big issue for a very long time.

      "Oh sorry, we can't get the data today because its cloudy"

      They aren't going to put receivers in downtown London. There are more than enough deserts around the planet to ensure nice clear reception 95%+ of the time without going to a secondary receiving location, which won't be nearly as difficult to set-up with lasers as it is currently with low frequency RF requiring huge antenna (65m dishes).

      Back onto the radio front, we have Voyager 1 which is 15 billion miles away, proven with radio, that would seem good enough for me.

      See above comments above about wasting lots of power, and requiring 65m antenna for very slow, very iffy communications.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    77. Re:Never saw this coming by hitmark · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      in the most expensive of ways...

      a can of high tech equipment in the wrong orbit, anyone?

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    78. Re:Never saw this coming by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 1
      2km/363000km (distance to the moon) = 0.0003 degrees beamwidth, which I would guess would be the lowest achievable width, given that it would maximize your signal that returns to earth. That's not right out of the laser, you run it backwards through a telescope (I believe the real name is a "beam expander", which increases the spot size and decreases the beam spread.

      Given that it's bouncing off a retroreflector, the spot size is probably doubled when it returns to earth.

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
    79. Re:Never saw this coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      windows 2000

    80. Re:Never saw this coming by wwphx · · Score: 2, Informative

      My wife says: "One in 30 million outbound photons strike the retroreflector, after they're reflected, one in 30 million of those photons make it back to the telescope and are detected. So about one in a quadrillion of the photons sent out are returned. And that is a record-breaking rate, no other retroreflector laser experiment has come close."

      She thinks the return beam diameter is probably more than double due to the lensing nature of the atmosphere, but she has no numbers off the top of her head.

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
    81. Re:Never saw this coming by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      Have her route the output of the detectors to a DAC and feed it into an amplifier. Then she can play the moon like a giant lunar CD.

    82. Re:Never saw this coming by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Cloud cover and atmospheric interference there is small

      It's much smaller in the desert of Atacama.

      in an area where it can view a great degree of the sky

      No?! You can only see half of the sky there, and I'm pretty sure you couldn't see any of the satellites in the equatorial orbit, and the ones far enough for you to see would still be close to the horizon so you'd still have a lot of atmosphere to see through. That's close to the equator that you can see most of the sky in a day, not the poles..

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    83. Re:Never saw this coming by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

      Quick someone tell the RIAA that there is a bootleg golden record on the side of pioneer 10, 11, voyager 1 and 2.

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    84. Re:Never saw this coming by pyrrhonist · · Score: 1

      The laser that my wife blasts the moon with on a regular basis

      Does her name start with "CHA"?

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    85. Re:Never saw this coming by captainwisdom · · Score: 1

      Good will always triumph over evil because evil consumes itself...

    86. Re:Never saw this coming by wwphx · · Score: 1

      Nope, though that was the first thing that I thought. I have the original print run of The Tick, and I bought the animated series when it came out and showed her said episode.

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
    87. Re:Never saw this coming by rspress · · Score: 1

      Just wait until the RIAA finds out the aliens have been making copies of those gold records to give to their friends or worse yet, they ripped the gold discs and put them on the alien interet at zorbak.binaries.music.nasa.gold.disc.slestak

    88. Re:Never saw this coming by pyrrhonist · · Score: 1
      You're very lucky. I had to settle for the omnibus' as the comics were no longer in print at the time.

      Weird Tick-related story:

      My roommates in college (MOAV members) sent New England Comics a box of spoons with a note saying that they had decoded the secret message on page whatever of comic #whatever (in reality, there was no message). They received an official letter back from NEC with a promotion to the next MOAV rank.

      I hope that your wife was amused by the episode!

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
  2. A bit exaggerated? by Greg01851 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "laser links like this one will be able to transmit data across huge distances through the universe" I think they mean "through the solar system"... laser wouldn't be very efficient "through the universe"... I think we may have other means of communication by the time we need to think about distances that vast.

    1. Re:A bit exaggerated? by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 5, Funny

      I dunno, I think if they modulated the laser to the harmonic frequency of dilithium they could route the message through a subspace channel on a tachyon carrier wave. This is pretty elementary stuff.

    2. Re:A bit exaggerated? by Big+Boss · · Score: 1

      +1 Technobabble

    3. Re:A bit exaggerated? by the_B0fh · · Score: 1

      I have a tachyon emitter/receiver set for sale.

    4. Re:A bit exaggerated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Exactly! Like putting too much air in a balloon!

    5. Re:A bit exaggerated? by dreethal · · Score: 1

      John Titor? Is that that you?

    6. Re:A bit exaggerated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +2 Star Trecknobabble!!!!

    7. Re:A bit exaggerated? by evilned · · Score: 1

      When did Rick Berman get a Slashdot account?

      --

      "My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett

    8. Re:A bit exaggerated? by InterestingX · · Score: 1

      Not only that, you can double the transmit power by routing it through the warp drive like thi@$*(%&@#*$...@...#&..[NO CARRIER]

    9. Re:A bit exaggerated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... and something hyperspacy is the only chance of the data moving *faster* than radio waves, as TP claimed. Who the hell edits this... oh, sorry, my bad. I forgot that slashdot editors only edit for zing factor, not for common sense obvious tech gaffes that any real nerd would immediately *headdesk* over.

    10. Re:A bit exaggerated? by master_p · · Score: 1

      Indeed funny...but it was funny back then when some people thought they could fly, or that the Earth was not flat. Guess what? ridicule became reality...

  3. One important warning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.

    1. Re:One important warning by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      Mmmm! Laser roasted birds. rhrhrhrhrh ...

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  4. Interesting to use this with radio telescopes by DamonHD · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Hi,

    It seems to me that this would be especially useful to reduce the amount of induced radio noise when communicating with L1 (etc) radio telescopes or other instruments potentially sensitive to the normal radio frequencies used for communication, eg keep the comms out-of-band of what is being measured as far as possible.

    Rgds

    Damon

    --
    http://m.earth.org.uk/
  5. I figured it out! by SailorSpork · · Score: 3, Funny

    Canary Islands and experiments with laser beams? Ahah! There must be sharks there!

  6. Question about lasers by schnikies79 · · Score: 1

    Do lasers follow the inverse square law? I'm guessing it doesn't since it's focused.

    Either way, correct alignment seems pretty tough.

    --
    Gone!
    1. Re:Question about lasers by rcw-home · · Score: 3, Informative

      Do lasers follow the inverse square law? I'm guessing it doesn't since it's focused.

      Yes they do, since that focus is never perfect. A cheapie laser pointer will show a 1/8" dot at 30 feet and a 1/4" smudge at 60 feet.

    2. Re:Question about lasers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      laser are not focussed they are coherent... sheesh.

    3. Re:Question about lasers by kevmatic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Lasers diffuse over a distance, just like normal light bulbs, albeit a much smaller rate.
      So, the farther away you go, the bigger the "dot" the beam casts is. The inverse square law applies. If it didn't, overall power would have been added as the beam travels (the dot would be bigger, but the same brightness). This is a law of physics.

      I'd imagine you'd kinda have to aim carefully, but by the time it could 1.5 billion miles the beam would be, at least, hundreds of miles across. Which means you better have a sensitive photo detector, just as you would need sensitive antennae with radio waves.

      But having to aim is the point (PUN), really. Concentrating the beam reduces the energy needed to get it there, because the energy is spread out over a smaller area.

    4. Re:Question about lasers by jnewmano · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately your example is not the inverse square law. It would be more along the lines of 1/8" at 30 feet and 1/2" at 60 feet. Your example is showing the effects of a lens, which would explain the nice linear relationship with distance.....

      It doesn't sound like you know much about optics or lasers....

    5. Re:Question about lasers by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 4, Informative

      Do lasers follow the inverse square law?
      No.

      I'm guessing it doesn't since it's focused.
      Close. It is because it is collimated..
      --
      A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    6. Re:Question about lasers by hansraj · · Score: 2, Informative

      I could be wrong so someone knowing better please correct me.

      The inverse square law is applicable only for point sources that are radiating in every direction. The inverse square of distance d arises in the formula that you are interested in the surface of a ball centered at the source with radius d. The surface area is proportional to the square of distance so intensity in some part of the surface relates to the inverse.

      Now lasers are not omnidirectional so the inverse square law is not applicable.

    7. Re:Question about lasers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It doesn't sound like you know much about mathematics. Please check the relation between the diameter of the laser spot and the power/area ratio, then rethink what the inverse square law actually says.

    8. Re:Question about lasers by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that with a laser the intensity at a given distance is proportional to 1/((d+c)^2) where d is the distance from the laser and c is a constant dependent on the particular laser. That is the light behaves as if it radiated from a point some distance behind the laser

      So over sufficiantly short distances the intensity is roughly constant but over sufficiantly long distances it roughly obeys inverse square.

      am I misremembering?

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    9. Re:Question about lasers by iRegister · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The radius of the laser is directly proportional to the distance from the energy source. The area covered by the laser is directly proportional to the square of the distance. The illuminance is inversely proportional to the distance. In equations: R (radius) ~ D (distance) A (area) ~ R^2 ~ D^2 L (illuminance) ~ 1 / A ~ 1 / R^2 ~ 1 / D^2 (~ means "proportional to") If you actually remembered what the inverse square law was, you could determine that it was an irrelevant law. Grandparent post was correct.

      --
      A fast cowboy since 2007
    10. Re:Question about lasers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've seen some comments to this post saying that a laser beam dosen't obey the inverse square law and some saying that it does. Actually, everyone is right in a sense. Over "short" distances, laser beams expand at a rate that is slower than inverse square. Over "large" distances, the rate of expansion increases, eventually approaching the inverse square law. The distance that distinguishes "small" from "large" is called the Rayleigh range and it depends on two properties of the beam: the wavelength of the light, and the curvature of the beam's phase fronts at the reference point from which you measure the expansion.

      Concrete example:
      A 1 micron infrared laser has a 3mm diameter spot with flat phase fronts. The Rayleigh range is 28m
      Distance: 1m, 2m, 4m, 8m, 16m, 32m, 64m, 128m
      Spot Size: 3.002mm, 3.008mm, 3.030mm, 3.118mm, 3.447mm, 4.531mm, 7.425mm, 13.91mm

      The same amount of power is contained within the spot, so the ratio of the intensity (power/area) goes as the inverse square of the ratio of the spot size.
      Between 1m and 2m, there is essentially no change in intensity (collimated beam) but between 64m and 128m, the intensity reduces by (1/4)

      -Anonymous Physicist

    11. Re:Question about lasers by iRegister · · Score: 1

      /. comment system ate my line breaks. Retry:

      R (radius) ~ D (distance)
      A (area) ~ R^2 ~ D^2
      L (illuminance) ~ 1 / A ~ 1 / R^2 ~ 1 / D^2

      (~ means "proportional to" here)

      /me goes to change /. prefs

      4 minutes later... Apparently /. thinks I'm a cowboy. Sorry for the delay in posting this update

      --
      A fast cowboy since 2007
    12. Re:Question about lasers by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Double distance, you double spot diameter, which results in quadruple the spot area (pi*r^2) (hence dividing intensity by the square of the distance ratio, so inverse square law is holding).

      Looks to me like he got it right and you got it wrong.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    13. Re:Question about lasers by raddan · · Score: 1

      I seem to recall something my father said once about the difficulty of trying to bounce a laser beam off a mirror on the moon (my father built laser-guidance systems), and that was that attenuating a laser beam enough to do that test is extraordinarily difficult. The state of the art may have indeed improved since the 1980's (when he was doing this kind of work), so I'd like to see how they think they have solved that problem.

    14. Re:Question about lasers by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wrong, they do follow the inverse square law.

      See the article you link to, which states that perfect collimation can never be achieved in reality. Thus, like any other source, laser light follows the inverse square law in the far field.

      Note that in general, I believe the inverse square law only applies to a point source, or a source which is effectively a point source at the distances involved. For dealing with cases where the source can't be approximated as a point (either because it's really large, or the radiation intensity is being measured very close to the source), RF engineers use the term "near field gain reduction" for the behavior of RF field intensities in close proximity to an antenna, which probably has an equivalent term for optics. As a result, for an optical source with a large aperture in relatively close physical proximity to the aperture, the inverse square law will appear not to apply, but once the "near field" for that source is exited, the inverse square law holds.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    15. Re:Question about lasers by delt0r · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid your wrong there when one considers large distances compared to the beam diameter. In this case lasers do follow the inverse square law. The diffraction limit means that it cannot be perfectly collimated. Once you are a few meters from the focus you can assume the wave fronts are spherically expanding (well for a Gaussian beam anyway) and hence must follow the inverse square law. However when considering short distance then yes they don't. But then neither do other light sources.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    16. Re:Question about lasers by mikiN · · Score: 1

      One doesn't preclude the other, it all depends on the optics in front of the laser. Whatever its properties, laser light is still light. You can do with it most anything you can do with light: bounce it off mirrors, focus or disperse it with lenses, etc.

      Perhaps you meant to say that laser light is "collimated" i.e. has very little divergence, which reduses (but doesn't eliminate) the need for focussing.

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
    17. Re:Question about lasers by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1

      Do lasers follow the inverse square law? Yes. The beam, even when "focused" is still "cone shaped" The apex of the code is at the transmitting laser and the angle is small but non-zero. The power density is simply the power of the laser divided by the area of the base of the cone. Notice that the base area depends on the square of the height of the cone. So yes, inverse square law applies as long as there is some "spread" in the beam and there always will be.

      Alignment? Yes this is not easy but it is a common problem and has been solved many times. Almost any astronomical telescope will have a VERY smmall feild of view, measured in arc minutes or arc seconds Telescops all over the world have been tracking targets with arc-second accuracy for decades. Now days we have computers but back in the early 20th century we had precision gears and clockwork.

      When you design a real system you need to balance some parameters. For example you can make the pointing eassier by making the beam wider but then you need more power. Possibly better pointing costs less them more power up to some point. The engineer's goal as always is to find the best balance of competing factors.

    18. Re:Question about lasers by shadow349 · · Score: 1

      jnewmano just got owned.

    19. Re:Question about lasers by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

      Build me a laser with Gm wavelength light (0.3Hz) and we can talk about near field for this purpose.

      --
      Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
    20. Re:Question about lasers by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Well it seems to me that if it has an angle of divergence that gives it a one inch diameter spot at 100 miles then it will have a two inch diameter circle at 200 miles. So at double the distance it will have four times the area. What part of that doesn't fit into your understanding of the inverse square relationship?

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    21. Re:Question about lasers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good post AC. You would get +1 informative for that one.

    22. Re:Question about lasers by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Columnation is pretty difficult - it spreads out eventually no matter what is done. That's what really makes power transmission to climbing robots on a highly conductive WIRE silicon snake oil but if you just want enough intensity to detect if there is a signal or no signal it is a completely different and practical idea.

    23. Re:Question about lasers by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

      The trick is to place one photon after another so they are all in a single line and the same energy. Then there will be no beam spread, well in a newtonian universe that is....

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
  7. Canary Islands? by j-stroy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are there sharks there or something?

    1. Re:Canary Islands? by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "Are there sharks there or something?"

      It's good to know that the writers involved in the WGA strike are coming to Slashdot to expand on their art form.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  8. Aiming will be a major problem by Constantine+XVI · · Score: 1, Redundant

    One of the biggest problems we'll run into with this is aiming the beam between the sender/reciever. 1.5Mil Kilometers is already enough of a distance, but we also have to keep in mind the fact that both ends will likely be in constant motion.

    --
    "I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
    1. Re:Aiming will be a major problem by onion2k · · Score: 2, Informative

      When the Apollo mission landed on the Moon they left behind a retroreflector that NASA used (still use?) to bounce a laser back and forth to measure the distance from the Earth very accurately. That's 385,000 km. If they were doing that in the late 1960s I don't see any reason why 1.5m km should be that tricky today.

    2. Re:Aiming will be a major problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The retroreflector isn't easy to hit, and they actually get back only one photon every few seconds. This would not yield much bandwidth for communications.

    3. Re:Aiming will be a major problem by Stonent1 · · Score: 1

      If you think about this like a lever. A change in yaw of 1mm on the sender side could shift the end point many kilometers.

  9. The horror... by SlipperHat · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Space sharks with frikkin' laser beams! They use lasers not to kill, but to coordinate with other space sharks.

  10. "far more rapidly" by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 4, Funny

    Because lasers travel at least 42 times as fast as radio waves!

    1. Re:"far more rapidly" by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, while I thought the same thing you did at first, I suspect they mean that the actual data rate will be higher due to lower noise on the channel and/or other factors.

    2. Re:"far more rapidly" by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was also thinking WTF at that summary. Radio waves and laser light are both electromagnetic waves and travel at the same speed, so this will do nothing for say the responsiveness of say controlling a drone on Mars. It may improve bandwidth so we can transfer more data, but I'd say we're doing pretty good in that department already, I'm not sure what a HDTV feed from Mars would give us.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:"far more rapidly" by huckamania · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm guessing that the laser packs the 1s and 0s better then the radio waves. Or maybe they leave out the 0s.

    4. Re:"far more rapidly" by pintpusher · · Score: 1

      in space!

      --
      man, I feel like mold.
    5. Re:"far more rapidly" by j0nb0y · · Score: 1

      Oh c'mon. You don't want to watch the Mars Bowl in low def, do you? With technological advances like these, soon we'll be able to watch all intergalactic sporting events in Hi Def!

      --
      If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
    6. Re:"far more rapidly" by dylan_- · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's how the data is sent more rapidly. It's a little known fact that the UHF waves from 802.11g wireless points travel about 5 times the speed of those from 802.11b points.

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    7. Re:"far more rapidly" by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      We'll just get the European Parliment to increase the speed of light. It's such a silly limit, anyway.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    8. Re:"far more rapidly" by hansraj · · Score: 1

      Chuck Noris movies? Or is that meme dead already?

    9. Re:"far more rapidly" by moderatorrater · · Score: 1

      You say that now, but in thirty years you'll be watching every episode of Law and Order: Martian Victims Unit along with the rest of us.

    10. Re:"far more rapidly" by serialdogma · · Score: 1

      Sssh, don't tell the European Commission they will try to lower it. After all photons traveling at 1.08e9 km/h would kill a lot of children if they wherever able to get onto the streets.

    11. Re:"far more rapidly" by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what a HDTV feed from Mars would give us.

      Funny you should say that, given that Japan's latest lunar orbiter offers HD resolution.

      Frankly, the comment is a little silly. Why *wouldn't* you want a larger pipe through which you could transmit larger quantities of scientific data? Given the amount of imagery and telemetry we're getting from the various probes orbiting Mars, I would think the more bandwidth the better.

    12. Re:"far more rapidly" by evilviper · · Score: 1

      It may improve bandwidth so we can transfer more data, but I'd say we're doing pretty good in that department already, I'm not sure what a HDTV feed from Mars would give us.

      "Today's spacecraft do 'onboard processing', choosing some data to send and discarding the rest. But in the long term a different solution is needed."

      "To download all their data these satellites would have to transmit at 100 gigabits a second. But current systems are hundreds of times too slow."

      http://www.spacedaily.com/news/dsn-02e.html

      "Laser transmission also saves power"

      http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/laser_dsn_020725.html
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  11. Sharks! by PolyDwarf · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Where are the space sharks? We need them to help us with our laser issues!

  12. unfortunately by LM741N · · Score: 5, Funny

    They will all stop at the last mile, rendering the project useless.

    1. Re:unfortunately by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Don't they have internal compensation for that?

  13. Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by y86 · · Score: 1

    Great idea, now try to do the math on all of the floating bodies and the effect of the gravity from neighboring quasars and other space phenomena.

    I could see it working but the receiver would have to be huge. It's hard enough to hit someone with a gun at a mile using a laser sight (windage which would be comparable to space effect on the laser light).

    Maybe a single shot of data, but maintaining that connection would be very difficult IMHO.

    It's still a cool idea.

    1. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by meringuoid · · Score: 5, Funny
      now try to do the math on all of the floating bodies and the effect of the gravity from neighboring quasars and other space phenomena.

      If an object 1.5 million kilometres away has a neighbouring quasar, you have bigger worries than communication.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by kebes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Great idea, now try to do the math on all of the floating bodies and the effect of the gravity from neighboring quasars and other space phenomena. For the mentioned application (communicating inside the solar system to the Lagrange points, for instance), gravitational effects will not be a big deal. The light deflection that the Earth or the moon will cause are negligible. The real challenge in targeting, I would imagine, will be accounting for relative motion between the two ends of the link.

      Maybe a single shot of data, but maintaining that connection would be very difficult IMHO. I expect just the opposite to be true. Once a link has been established, I imagine maintaining it wouldn't be that hard. Why? Probably the optics on both ends will measure the positioning of the incoming laser on their detector. They can then send information to each other about alignment (e.g. "you're drifting to the left...") so that they can actively compensate (the time lag between them will be ~5 seconds, or ~10 seconds roundtrip).

      Instead, I imagine the initial linkup might be the limiting step. The system might require an initially higher-power signal (that is broad so that targeting tolerances are lower) to initialize the link, then active feedback could allow the two ends to narrow the beams for lower-energy high-speed data transfer. Maybe the initial phase will use conventional radio signals (or radar) to establish the locations (and relative movement) of the two endpoints of the link. With that information, the two ends can then aim the laser fairly accurately.

      I could see it working but the receiver would have to be huge. It's hard enough to hit someone with a gun at a mile using a laser sight (windage which would be comparable to space effect on the laser light). Luckily there is no wind in space, and the motion of objects is measurable and fairly predictable. Obviously over those distances any amount of error or jitter translates to a huge positioning error, but laser-steering systems can also be made quite accurate (not to mention that a laser doesn't have to be perfectly collimated, you can easily tune the aperture so that the beam is 500 m wide at the target... as long as the laser is strong enough, the receiver will still easily be able to measure the signal).
    3. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by DirtySouthAfrican · · Score: 1

      And if we were able to measure the effects due to quasars, (gravitational radiation?) that would be a scientific breakthrough in itself.

    4. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by y86 · · Score: 1

      Re: "No winds in space"

      I used wind a metaphore for cosmic interference.
      But to the point......

      From the Wiki:

      The solar wind is a stream of charged particles (i.e., a plasma) which are ejected from the upper atmosphere of the sun. It consists mostly of high-energy electrons and protons (about 1 keV) that are able to escape the sun's gravity in part because of the high temperature of the corona and the high kinetic energy particles gain through a process that is not well understood at this time.

      Many phenomena are directly related to the solar wind, including geomagnetic storms that can knock out power grids on Earth, aurorae (e.g., Northern Lights) and the plasma tail of a comet always pointing away from the sun. While early models of the solar wind used primarily thermal energy to accelerate the material, by the 1960s it was clear that thermal acceleration alone cannot account for the high speed solar wind. Some additional acceleration mechanism is required, but is not currently known, but most likely relates to magnetic fields in the solar atmosphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_wind

    5. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by syzler · · Score: 1

      Obviously over those distances any amount of error or jitter translates to a huge positioning error

      Some where in Africa:

          *cough* *cough*

      Mean while in Houston:

          Dammit!! We lost communications again.

      Something about a butterfly flapping wings and a tsunami.

    6. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that be a hoot? Discovering gravitational radiation using your new fangled communication device, which just obsoleted itself by discovering a new communications method (supposedly, if gravitational radiation could be used to send communications, the communication would be instantaneous due to the properties of gravity).

    7. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by Enlightenment · · Score: 1

      Gravitational force propagates at the speed of light, actually. Unless I missed something?

    8. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      Space effect on the laser light? What is this fascinating new physics of which you speak?

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    9. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1
      I just read this the other day:

      http://metaresearch.org/media%20and%20links/press/SOG-Kopeikin.asp

      Abstract: New findings were announced on 2003/01/08 by S. Kopeikin, claiming to have measured the "speed of gravity" and finding it essentially equal to the speed of light. These findings are invalid by both experimental and theoretical standards because the quantity measured was already known to propagate at the speed of light. The hyped claims therefore do a disservice to science in general and the advancement of physics in particular because the announced findings do not represent the meaning of the actual experimental results and cannot possibly represent the physical quantity heretofore called "the speed of gravity", which has already been proved by six experiments to propagate much faster than light, perhaps billions of times faster. Several mainstream relativists have also stated their disagreement that the experiment really measured what it claimed to measure.

      Emphasis is mine. If you're interested, we can dig up more research on it, as it's a subject that interests me (anything that is faster then light is a cause for celebration).

    10. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      Interesting, but... questionable. I'm not convinced that he's fully worked through the relativistic field equations - the physics here is very nineteenth-century and occasionally naive.

      Digging up more research on it is indeed a good idea. The chap who runs metaresearch.org reckons that the GPS satellites don't actually correct for gravitational time dilation, because there's no such thing; this is news to everyone else. There's some interesting commentary on the matter here, an article on the fascinating subculture of relativity deniers (who seem an even odder bunch than the creationists).

      And in a totally gratuitous ad hominem, it appears he also thinks the Mars Face is artificial.

      So far as I can see, his chief complaint with general relativity's predicted speed of c for propagation of gravitational changes is that gravitational aberration ought to destabilise orbits, producing a net torque and a change in angular momentum. As a matter of fact this is what relativity predicts - hence all the investment in experiments to detect gravitational waves carrying away angular momentum from binary pulsars or what have you. However, the effect is small, since most of it cancels out thanks to some more subtle effects, leaving it only really detectable in cases of high gravity or high acceleration.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    11. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by hemorex · · Score: 1

      10000ms ping? I guess that we gamers will just have to wait for the whole quantum entanglement thing to pan out...

    12. Re:Targeting that is going to be a bitch. by flynns · · Score: 1

      "Great idea, now try to do the math on all of the floating bodies and the effect of the gravity from neighboring quasars and other space phenomena."

      NASA is good at these kinds of things. Or at least, they will be at the end of the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF YEARS it'll take to get to anything like a quasar.

      --
      'If you're flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit.'
  14. Far faster than radio? by MMC+Monster · · Score: 0, Troll

    Super(luminal)!

    --
    Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
  15. Canary Islands, eh... by Billosaur · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Aren't there sharks out there? Hmmmmmmmm....

    --
    GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
  16. Not exclusive concepts by mdmkolbe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Can't you also make a laser out of radio waves? I know they have microwave "lasers" called masers, so do "rasers" exist?

    1. Re:Not exclusive concepts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only in japan?

    2. Re:Not exclusive concepts by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Verizon makes em.

      --
    3. Re:Not exclusive concepts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yup.. I think they are produced by Motorola...

    4. Re:Not exclusive concepts by Radon360 · · Score: 2, Funny

      so do "rasers" exist

      Well, Motorola developed something that sounded like this, but from what I understand, they often have to be packaged in an enclosure that's some gaudy shade of pink, occasionally emit short, audible clips of annoying boy-band songs, and they're only useful for conveying gossip between young teenage girls.

      (sorry, couldn't resist.)

    5. Re:Not exclusive concepts by wattrlz · · Score: 1
      Such devices do exist, but would probably be impractical for this use because:
      1. RF wavelengths are several orders of magnitude larger than those encountered in optical lasers and the resonators have to be proportionaly larger as well.
      2. No bandwidth improvement
      3. All the ones I'm aware of are rather delicate and don't look like they'd make the trip into space intact and usable.
    6. Re:Not exclusive concepts by pclminion · · Score: 1

      You would need a giant resonant chamber, because radio waves are so long. And you'd need a metastable medium with differences in energy level on the order of radio energy. These things are possible, maybe, but not likely to ever happen on earth. Out in the depths of the universe I'm sure there's some object somewhere which emits coherent radio frequency radiation because of some physical process.

    7. Re:Not exclusive concepts by the_B0fh · · Score: 1

      In japan.

    8. Re:Not exclusive concepts by jagilbertvt · · Score: 1

      I thought that was Motorola, or Gillette?

  17. Speed by rossdee · · Score: 1

    Laser beam has more bandwidgth than radio, but it still travels at the same speed (c).

    And the distance mentioned (1.5 million kilometres) doesn't seem very useful. thats too far for the moon, but not far enough for Mars - theres nothing out there to talk to.

    1. Re:Speed by necro81 · · Score: 1

      The last paragraph of the press release explains. The distance chosen was about the distance to the L1 and L2 Lagrangian Points around the Earth. These are candidate locations for the next generation James Webb Space Telescope (also at wikipedia). For that application, high data bandwidth is extremely useful.

      Very likely, if something like this were incorporated into the Webb design, it would be augmented with traditional radio for tracking, telemetry, and as a backup to the laser link for bulk data transfer.

    2. Re:Speed by PolyDwarf · · Score: 1

      theres nothing out there to talk to.

      That's what they want you to think.

    3. Re:Speed by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Light IS radio.

      It's just EM spectrum that we have receptors for (our eyes).

      And it is now known that birds can see magnetic fields... and in red at that.

      --
    4. Re:Speed by luke2063 · · Score: 1
      There might not be anything there now, but thats the distance to some locations that we could put some stuff and it be useful
      From the article -

      The distance of 1.5 million kilometres that was simulated on the Canary Islands is equivalent to the distance between the Earth and Lagrange points L1 and L2. These mark specific positions in space at which it is particularly advantageous to place space telescopes. Equipped with laser terminals, telescopes such as these will in future be able to transmit far greater quantities of observation data to Earth than is possible by radio today.
    5. Re:Speed by DirtySouthAfrican · · Score: 1

      Yes, but your average radio is not coherent nor collimated...

    6. Re:Speed by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      The signal travels the same rate, but if the bandwidth is 5 times as great it will send the same amount of data five times as fast. Think about an old 300 baud modem vs an old 55k modem; the signal travels at the same speed, but the web page loads faster on the 55k.

      Radio: "Dear Grandma"

      Laser: "Dear Grandma, please send another box of cookies"

      The end of the message arrives sooner, so it is indeed faster, even though the signals travel at the same speed.

      -mcgrew (yes, I did have a 300 baud modem. I used it on Compuserve with my Radio Shack computer. It was slllooooooow.)

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    7. Re:Speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your misunderstanding of those concepts is vast.

    8. Re:Speed by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point. 1.5 million kilometers is the distance to the L2 Lagrange point (scroll down until you see the boldface title "L2", or just download the drawing http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/L2_rendering.jpg/300px-L2_rendering.jpg.

      So yeah, 1.5 million kilometers is probably a pretty useful distance, and it should also answer a lot of the questions above regarding aiming at a moving target, since Lagrange points are somewhat like geostationary orbits (that is, it is an orbit that is in a fixed position relative to the earth). As I understand, what with not being a rocket scientist and all, rotation of the earth will still cause an object in orbit at a Lagrange point to traverse the sky, but the object won't be orbiting the earth as well, which should simplify the math somewhat.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    9. Re:Speed by treeves · · Score: 1

      Yup. It's all about phase velocity vs. group velocity.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    10. Re:Speed by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Well, perhaps, if you were talking about FM or AM signal reception, you would be true.

      However, almost everybody has an EM coherent beam emitter: a Microwave oven.

      It is a MASER. Well... a laser for microwaves.

      By that alone, the second most common radio is that of a radio-oven that emits coherent invisible light.

      --
  18. 100 metres by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We recently had a laser link installed between two buildings here. 100 metres was the distance between them. The recent foggy mornings rendered them useless.

    1.5 million kilometres? Good luck!

  19. Referring to Bandwidth? by dunc78 · · Score: 1

    I was curious about the same comment, but they must just be referring to the higher bandwidth available at optical frequencies compared to radio frequencies. In other words, the latency would be the same, but once the first bit hits, you will get the next million bits "more rapidly" and the next trillion bits "far more rapidly."

  20. Water particles floating in space? by n3tcat · · Score: 1

    The transmission unit was modified in such a way that the conditions on the 144-kilometre stretch between the islands exactly reflected those that would prevail on a 1.5 million kilometre link through space. This was achieved primarily by reducing the emission aperture of the laser to a diameter of less than half a millimetre in order to weaken the light signal. I have a hard time believing that a measly 144km stretch on a planet WITH ATMOSPHERE is able to exactly replicate the conditions of a 1.5 million km stretch of space. I mean let's look at the ozone. I'm not a scientist and I only hold a GED, but doesn't that thing block cosmic rays and radiation and shit? What would that do to a laser? And let's assume for a moment that they are just shooting from ship to ship. What about atmosphere? Would the laser require less intensity to be shot such a long distance due to the lack of interference from an atmosphere? And if so, wouldn't little things like the quality of technology have a greater impact on the quality of laser stream? I dunno. I see way too many holes in this to see any plausible correlation to 1.5km of space.

    1. Re:Water particles floating in space? by kilo_foxtrot84 · · Score: 1

      doesn't that thing block cosmic rays and radiation and shit? What would that do to a laser? Not all radiation is created equal. Light--even visible light--is electromagnetic (EM) radiation. Another kind of radiation is particle radiation: actual particles of matter (protons, neutrons, electrons and the like) zipping around and hitting things. That's the kind of radiation that helps make fission work. Lasers emit EM radiation.

      The gases and that make up our atmosphere interact differently with various "flavors" of EM radiation. You're right, it does work to block out some things; a popular example is how the ozone layer protects us from certain kinds of ultraviolet light (EM radiation). However, it is rarely an all-or-nothing affair. Some "flavors" of EM radiation pass through just fine... visible light is the simplest example. Each kind of EM radiation is reflected, absorbed, or transmitted through the atmosphere--and all other matter--in varying degrees. The "flavor" of EM radiation we want to use for our laser determines how well the light will propagate through the atmosphere. If we pick something that we know the atmosphere doesn't reflect or absorb so well, then there will be fewer problems with the atmosphere.

      Would the laser require less intensity to be shot such a long distance due to the lack of interference from an atmosphere? Nope; I'd imagine it would be about the same. Space is not completely empty. There's still little specks of matter here and there, floating about in the void. Granted, they're very, very far apart... but we're talking about a very, very long distance, so it stands to reason that if we shoot a laser beam over that distance, this matter is also going to reflect, absorb, and transmit our light in a significant way.

      What's been done here is that people have crunched some numbers and rigged up an experiment to produce approximate results. They have shortened the distance the laser light has to travel by a whole lot... but the number of specks of matter has been increased by a whole lot, too, because we're sending the light through our atmosphere. It becomes a relatively simple matter of scale.

      It's an approximation, to be sure, but it is a pretty well-reasoned one.
  21. This is why by ch-chuck · · Score: 1

    This is why project like SETI are bound to fail - the quaint 20th century notion of using diffuse 'broadcasting' of uncompressed, redundant intelligence (anything distinguishable from noise) using undirected RF energy in all directions is something the aliens abandoned millenniums ago, for more efficient point-to-point methods like this.

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    1. Re:This is why by ArcadeX · · Score: 1

      something the aliens abandoned millenniums ago So when will it reach earth?
      --
      An I.T. motto in the hands of an idiot is a dangerous thing...
    2. Re:This is why by madigan82 · · Score: 1

      It has already passed Earth. I remember hearing a line of thinking like this before. Assuming aliens discover similar technologies as humans, they would have discovered some form of radio. They would have used it and the signals would have been broadcast out there for a few hundred years. Then they discover a method to send data directly with no radio signals (such as over fiber), and all of a sudden, they stop making any noise. Eventually they stop using the technology that listens for radio waves. Then we come along pumping out radio waves but they can no longer hear them. In another hundred years, our point to point transmissions will be way more advanced then radio so we'll stop using them, preventing us from hearing another race of aliens that just learned how to send out radio waves. So basically, we have a window of ohh...500 years lets say (pulled out of thin air) where we can both send and receive radio waves. We would need an alien race to be within that same window technologically speaking to hear us/talk to us.

    3. Re:This is why by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Beside the fact that you ignore the limitations of this type of communications....

      A) Just because they or us goes to all'p2p communications, doesn't mean we stop listening for radio waves. In fact that would make looking for radio waves marginally simpler.

      B) Which 500 hundred year? How far way is this race?

      C) If we figure out a way to see laser beans/whatever, we will probably look for those as well.

      D) You go to start sometime.

      E) maybe they are sending out radio waves intentionally. If you want to communicate with something new, you need to start as simple as possible. Radio waves are pretty simple.

      F) yes there are many other things SETI doesn't detect.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:This is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is the huge scale of billions of years of the universe against how likely an appropriate species lasts at our technology and understanding level, all within earshot. We're also limited to what happens in our galaxy, knocking the percentages game down significantly. Unless there are absolutely zillions of planets with life, the chances of us detecting anything artificially created outside our solar system, is just about zero.

      Now that we're finding planets outside of our solar system, maybe in a few hundred years we'll be focusing our listening efforts on those areas, rather than the crap SETI does now.

  22. It's pretty damn cold up there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What the article doesn't mention is the poor crew that were huddled behind the massive metal crate up by the NOT (Nordic Optical Telescope) on these tiny little white plastic chairs (which had to be weighted down by rocks when they got up). I was up there at the WHT/NOT the other week and happened to pass by their setup, the only potential hint at what they were doing being one of those little yellow hazard signs that simply said 'Laser' on it. Glad they got what they wanted - the weather was pretty terrible for several days, you were basically sitting in cloud.

  23. Huge distances through the universe? by JohnnyDanger · · Score: 2, Informative
    For a sense of scale:

    1.5 million kilometers = 1.6 x 10^-7 light year.

    Distance to galactic center = 26,000 light years
    Distance to nearest (Andromeda) galaxy = 2.5 million light years

    "Faster than radio" probably refers to increased bandwidth, because light-speed is light-speed.

    1. Re:Huge distances through the universe? by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      for years they said man would never fly
      the wright brothers proved thousands of years of scientists wrong

      then they said you couldn't break the sound barrier
      enter the x1

      I'm waiting for warp drive, but given how sporadic and far between these sudden leaps in transportation technology are i'm not holding my breath waiting for that vacation to the proxima system.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:Huge distances through the universe? by donak · · Score: 1

      As far as I know, radio waves and light propogate at the same speed, approx 186,000 miles/sec.
      The speed gain is in the higher frequency mentioned in the article, allowing greater data throughput,
      or bandwidth as you put it (from the article):

      "Because of the shorter wavelength, lasers can transmit more data than radio signals in the same period of time.
      Lasers can also be far more accurately aligned with the receiver than radio waves, and therefore require less power
      for data transmission."

      --
      Don't blame me, it's usually 2 in the morning when I post ...
  24. Line of sight and percise issues? by FadedTimes · · Score: 1

    Would there not be major line of sight issues and percision issues. My crude understanding of radio waves is that you can send a signal across a wide area and it seems to me a laser would have to be more exact to get the data because of the shorter wave length. I see a shorter wave length as a disadvantage; especially over longer distances.

  25. Great! by zeromorph · · Score: 1

    I hereby welcome you, Oerlikonians. But could anybody tell me where this Oerlikon space is and how Oerlikonians look like?

    But seriously:
    Now we only need to get something or someone that far away that it actually makes sense to drop radio waves for laser beams.

    --
    "Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
  26. Faster? by DTemp · · Score: 1

    Farther... sure, because it's a focused beam.

    But faster? Don't radio waves and laser beams both hit the same speed limit (the speed of light)? Radio waves are photons too.

    1. Re:Faster? by frith01 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Faster Baud rate, not faster event rate. higher frequency signals can carry more information.

  27. Coming soon... by SlipperHat · · Score: 2, Funny

    The ability to encrypt nefarious messages in a death-ray across long distances.

    Some popular messages include:

    - "If you are reading this message, you are probably toast"
    - "PWNED!!!"
    - "(Scorpio) Avoid reading under strong light"
    - "Knock, knock"
    - "Is this the James Bond? Oh sorry, my mistake."
    - "Can you hear me now?"
    - "Special Delivery!"
    - "Ceiling Cat sez hi!"

  28. why didn't they use the lunar retro-reflector? by jfb2252 · · Score: 2, Informative

    It seems strange that they didn't aim for the retro-reflector placed by one of the Apollo missions which has been used for 30+ years for laser ranging experiments. It's location is well known. That would give them a real 800,000 km beam path, roughly half of what they claimed.

    1. Re:why didn't they use the lunar retro-reflector? by cnettel · · Score: 1

      It would also give the complete atmosphere, twice, along the way. I could see how data modulation schemes and optics that would handle 1.5E6 m in space could still have problems with that.

    2. Re:why didn't they use the lunar retro-reflector? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Funny, I didnt RTFA, but presumed that they did just that and showed a 3-6dB link margin. Oh well, so much for real science.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    3. Re:why didn't they use the lunar retro-reflector? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reflectors on the moon can't be aimed, as far as I know, so it would be awfully hard to get a proper bounce.

    4. Re:why didn't they use the lunar retro-reflector? by Clueless+Moron · · Score: 1

      I would think it's because the dispersal characteristics of the retro-reflector is not well defined (it is not perfect, and it is not known how degraded it is), so you don't know exactly how long a distance you are simulating.

      In other words, you'll only learn know that for a given laser power you can go at least to the moon and back. They want to learn how far they can go for a given laser power, so the whole path has to be under fairly reasonable control.

  29. Man oh man.. by moogied · · Score: 1

    I think the real question is whether or not LOS for 1.5km can be maintained on a constant basis..

    --
    So basically, -1 troll/offtopic is really slashdots way of saying "I hate that you thought of something before me."
  30. puny lights by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

    You lights only go at light-speed? Pfft.

  31. Laser moon and back = a few feet in diameter spot by davidwr · · Score: 1

    I don't recall the details bit I seem to recall astronauts putting a target on the moon's surface back in the '60s or '70s. The laser was a few feet or less in diameter when it returned to earth.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  32. Press release accuracy and Bible units by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love this quote "The transmission unit was modified in such a way that the conditions on the 144-kilometre stretch between the islands exactly reflected those that would prevail on a 1.5 million kilometre link through space." And in a related story, a vast region of the Atlantic disappears from satellite view. Also, are we now quoting transmission speed in Bible units?

    1. Re:Press release accuracy and Bible units by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but it was quickly translated into something sadly more familiar, units of simultaneous TV shows.

      so 3 HDTV/s = 1 hbps ?

  33. Lagrange points by camperdave · · Score: 4, Interesting

    whats going to happen when they do put 'scopes at the lagrange points?

    I've been thinking about the Earth/Sun Lagrange points lately. I think they might be an excellent location to test an Earth/Mars transit vehicle. ESL5 is far enough away to be out of Earth's magnetosphere, so it will experience the raw radiation environment. It would be able to remain in position for long periods of time. The only hitch I can see is it may not be easy to get to/from. I can't seem to find any data. If we put a test platform with a "lifeboat" craft there, how quickly could the craft get back here. Is it days away? weeks away? Anybody know?

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:Lagrange points by einhverfr · · Score: 3, Informative

      The basic problem is that the LaGrange points 4-5 are stable, but require a fair bit of energy to get to in part because you have to slow down a lot more (no nice large gravity well to assume an orbit around).

      In general the amount of time to get there/back would be dependant on how much energy you want to put into getting there and back.

      Finally we do already have a satellite (SOHO) on the L1 point relative to Earth and the Sun. This is an unstable point so some energy is used maintaining position However it is a telescope on an L point relative to the Earth and Sun.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    2. Re:Lagrange points by IhuntCIA · · Score: 1

      Earth/Sun Lagrange points 4 and 5 might be bit dusty. While radio waves wouldn't have lot trouble with the dust, it might be fatal for the laser beam data link.

    3. Re:Lagrange points by barakn · · Score: 1

      As you kindly pointed out, the L4 and L5 points take a lot of energy to get to. In fact they are energy maxima, which means that they are not stable but unstable. However, once an object drifts away from L4 or L5 it becomes subject to a Coriolis force (if you care to believe in fictitious forces that result from adopting a rotating frame of reference) that sends it into a orbit around L4 or L5.

      --
      "I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
    4. Re:Lagrange points by camperdave · · Score: 1

      In general the amount of time to get there/back would be dependant on how much energy you want to put into getting there and back.

      Well, yeah, obviously. Since it's 500 light seconds away, if I have infinite energy, it's only 500 seconds away. So, let me rephrase the question, then. How big of a rocket would be needed on the "lifeboat" craft to return to Earth in, say, a week? The Apollo service module engines could bring the crew back from the moon in two days. They had an ISP: 314 s (3.1 kNs/kg) using an engine thrust of 91.2 kN.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  34. lagrangian points by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 1

    In the article, they say that the distance was chosen because it is the distance between the earth and either of the L1 or L2 lagrangian points. SOHO currently sits at L1 and talks to earth with a 200 kbit/s radio, so this isn't exactly a hypothetical scenario. (An interesting question in that case, though, might be whether we can reliably receive a laser signal against the sun's background radiation.)

  35. Space lasers? Robot machine guns? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone recall the story from a couple weeks ago about an autonomous Oerlikon machine gun killing 6 people at a demonstration in South Africa? I imagine these lasers will be lower power than to burn through objects, but perhaps it's a matter of time before high-powered space lasers come about (think 80s: Star Wars, Reagan-esqe). I hope they put more testing into these lasers than with their machine guns.

    P.S. I currently work for Oerlikon Systems, (not Oerlikon Space (formerly Contraves Airspace)). Never thought I'd see this company get Slashdotted!

  36. Will be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if the hot space aliens don't want you and your porn dvds were left on earth.

  37. Mis-aiming by TWX · · Score: 1

    Just be careful to keep the aim right, you don't want to end up blowing up your power station and taking out a few blocks of your city...

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  38. Laser moon and back feet, more like *miles* by Overzeetop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Correct, they did put corner cubes on the moon (aka retroreflectors, or three mirrored surfaces all at 90 degree angles to one another).

    However, the beam size from a collimated laser is a couple miles across at the moon. Typically, receiving a signal back takes a large telescope which counts single-digit photon returns from a Nd:YAG q-switched laser. It's been almost 2 decades since I worked with the stuff (you might search for Satellite Laser Ranging, Goddard Optical Research Facility and MOBLAS or TLRS) and the units that ranged on the moon cubes were at Mt. Haleakala in Hawaii.

    It was neat stuff, but I remember one of the PIs saying the spot on the moon was the size of Georgetown (a section of Washington DC), though I can't remember exactly now. The outgoing laser was about 4" in diameter.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  39. Ozone Layer by Radon360 · · Score: 1

    The ozone layer of the upper atmosphere really only filters out wavelengths of light that are less than 320nm or so (ultraviolet and higher spectrum). Most LASERS typically operate using wavelengths in the visible spectrum of light or infrared range.

  40. a better test would have by advocate_one · · Score: 2, Interesting

    bounced the signal off the reflector that Neil Armstrong left at the Apollo 11 landing site. Round trip could have come pretty close to 768,800 kilometers... bouncing it back up and down again would have made the link as near as damn it = 1,500,000 kilometers

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  41. InterSatellite Communications by d-Orb · · Score: 2, Informative

    I remember this being done with Earth Observation satellites. The EO satellite beams data using an optical link to a satellite that is in geostationary orbit. This satellite then beams the information down through a microwave link. This frees the EO satellite (that producue huge amounts of data) of the need of high-power consuming RF transceivers, reduces the need for ground stations, and is seriously cool. This was done in 2001 between SPOT 4 and Artemis (Press release). Note that SPOT sits in an orbit around 800km, and Artemis is geostationary... They then did the same with an aircraft (see here).

    So it is really quite useful. When you consider the amount of data the sensors on board ENVISAT (or even MODIS) produce, this is an important tool.

  42. Hard to aim == Hard to intercept by ebolaZaireRules · · Score: 1

    Perhaps - but on the other hand, its not like it will be easy to eavesdrop on. (almost) no divergence... you know that the only person listening is the person to who its directed.

    I guess you could get _some_ info from diffraction (eg - metal powder), but at a much reduced intensity - and a resulting weaker signal.

    --
    The Bible: Historically verifiable fact from an observers point of view
  43. SETI by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    This is just more proof of what we already know: that the tighter the beam the more efficient it becomes for point-to-point comms in terms of energy usage and overall loss/noise.

    Its also something to think about with respect to SETI. I mean the universe could be swarming with life forms communcating over great distances, and it would make more sense than not that they use tight beams to do this. In which case SETI won't ever pick anything up because nearly all the energy from their comms is only going each other.

  44. This is a very good point... based on that logic.. by keirre23hu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    we have the Gas engine... it works.. lets forget about all this crazy hybird and electric car talk...

    While we're at it, Coal Plants do a good job at producing energy and they work too... lets forget about all that fandangled alternate energy source stuff...

    While were at it.. smoke signals work too.. no need for complicated technology like telephone and email...

    okay.. now that my sarcasm limit has been reached... because something works is not a good reason for ignoring technology that can potentially supercede it...

  45. If we start shining huge lasers into space by caluml · · Score: 4, Funny

    If we start shining huge lasers into space, we're going to end up accidentally blinding aliens. Which might be good (if they're chest-explody types), or bad (if they're hot sex-starved space-babes). Your call.

    1. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by bflong · · Score: 1

      if they're hot sex-starved space-babes ...Then maybe some of this crowd could get laid if our aim is right.

      --
      Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
    2. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by mdw2 · · Score: 1

      if you've taken a look at most of the slashdot userbase I don't see how you can think that blinding sex-starved space babes would be a bad thing. what they don't see can't hurt us.

      --
      This sig intentionally left blank.
    3. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Warning: do not obliterate Earth with remaining eye. Please.

    4. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by lateral · · Score: 1

      We're going to need to get some designer shades up there in advance of deploying the lasers. The hot sex-starved space-babes will be protected and still hot-looking whilst the chest-explody types will be blinded, defeated by their fatal falw: a lack of ears.

      L

    5. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking on behalf of all Anonymous Coward, I should point out our chances are much better if sex starved aliens are blinded.

    6. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by gunkaa · · Score: 0

      Given the appearance of most /.ers, blinding hot sexy space-babes may not be an entirely bad thing.

    7. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blinding hot sex-starved babes wouldn't be bad either. They sure wouldn't be going for the slashdot type if they were able to see. ;)

    8. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by smbarbour · · Score: 1

      Would it really be bad if the sex-starved space-babes couldn't see what Slashdotters look like? You don't have to see to have sex. People do it in the dark all the time.

    9. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Considered what most Slashdotters look like, it might be preferable if these space-babes were b.. oh wait.. why did the half of people who replied to your comment thought just like me? :-S

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    10. Re:If we start shining huge lasers into space by G-News.ch · · Score: 1

      Even better if they're the later kind, then they won't be able to see our ugly mugs, when they're about to get it on.

  46. WTF, it was done in 1948 by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 1
    Fellas and Gals, it was done first in 1948, at zero net cost.

    Some guys in the US Army Signal Corps aimed their very primitive SCR-348 radar sets at the Moon, and wadda you know, an echo came back. All done with what looks like from now as very primitive vacuum tubes, diode detectors, and magnetrons.

    A laser is just a Very high frequency radio transmitter. The latecomers just upped the frequency by a large factor.

    1. Re:WTF, it was done in 1948 by geekoid · · Score: 1

      The moon is 750000 kilometers away? wait, no it's not. This would be TWICE that distance and more data;which was the point you condescending prick.

      And it wasn't at zero net cost.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:WTF, it was done in 1948 by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 1
      >The moon is 750000 kilometers away? wait, no it's not. This would be TWICE that distance and more data;which was the point you ********* ******.

      Tsk, tsk. Such language.

      Sorry the SC couldn't move the Moon to please you. They used whatever reflector was available, not some distance that would be post-ordained some sixty years later.

      If you want to be that picky, add six years and change "Moon" to "Venus", which is many times farther away than both the Moon and the recently spanned distance.

      My point was that sending electromagnetic waves long distances is not exactly a new thing and should not be a cause of much surprise. The rules governing signal power, bandwidth, noise, data rate, and receiver signal to noise ratio and error rate were worked out by Shannon many many decades ago. On the practical side, Jansky heard the Sun and the Milky Way in IIRC 1931. There's nothing novel in either theory or practice in what these guys did, AFAICS.

  47. Probably already in use. by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The US has a several classes of Signal intelligence and Communication intelligence satellites. I would be shocked if they didn't already use an optical link to send their data to relay satellite for downloading to a ground station. An optical data link would make the satellite "silent" so their data link wouldn't interfere with there intercept receivers. Since both the satellites are in space you wouldn't need to worry about weather an since they are both in geostationary orbit you wouldn't need to worry about aiming. Of course the other benefit is that you could beam the data right from your recon satellite parked over Asia to a relay satellite parked over the US and then right down to a ground station in Virgina. No need to have a ground station in a friendly or not so friendly country.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:Probably already in use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or they could just be encrypting their transmission. Just maybe, y'know, whichever makes the most sense?

    2. Re:Probably already in use. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Encryption doesn't solve the noise problem. It is really hard to listen for weak signals when you are transmitting a strong one.
      Also you still have to set up a ground station and then retransmit the data back to Virgina.
      Also even with an optical link you would encrypted the data.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:Probably already in use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Above certain levels of secrecy, no country is so friendly!

    4. Re:Probably already in use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I would be shocked if they didn't already use an optical
      > link to send their data to relay satellite for downloading
      > to a ground station

      Already done by ESA -- project ARTEMIS demonstrated laser
      comms between satellites and downlink to the Canary Islands
      and in-flight aircraft:

      http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMN6HQJNVE_index_0.html

  48. You could move a bunch of data, but.. by Dribbitz · · Score: 1

    ...that 10-second ping would be a killer for the gamers :)

    1. Re:You could move a bunch of data, but.. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Turn based games FTW!

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  49. That's good... by dentar · · Score: 1

    ...because I have so many files I need to trade with the aliens.

    --
    -- I am. Therefore, I think!
  50. AAAAAAAHHHHH FUCKING BUUUURRRRNNN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    bet you feel like a total fucking fuckwit now, don't you, you patronising arrogant CUNT.....

  51. Sharks? by pablo_max · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I seriously doubt that sharks can survive in space for too long, and even if they could..it's exceedingly doubtful they would hold still enough to transmit data in this way. Get real.

  52. The speed of light by jabber · · Score: 1

    Your point on aim is well taken. Also the rare chance of an obstruction along the path may prove an issue. A passing asteroid or a deliberately placed man-made object would effectively sever the link - at least close enough to the source such that the laser would not have scattered much yet.

    What I don't get here is how a laser is going to make the communication any faster than any other form of electro-magnetic transmission.

    --

    -- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
    1. Re:The speed of light by phil+reed · · Score: 1

      Not "faster" as in time, but "faster" as in higher data rate.

      --

      ...phil
      "For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
    2. Re:The speed of light by jabber · · Score: 1

      Oh. Well. That makes perfect sense then.

      *slams head with physics book*

      --

      -- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
  53. Curious by keirre23hu · · Score: 1

    I am a moron when it comes to this kind of engineering, but couldnt they use a radio signal to get targetting information, i.e. a handshake then pass the data transfer aspects to the laser?

  54. OT- your sig by sm62704 · · Score: 1

    "sudo apt-get install foobar" scares non-techies. Say "Install foobar from Add/Remove (or Synaptic)" instead.

    Since foobar=fubar="fucked up beyond all recognition", why would I want to install a Microsoft product on my nice Linux machine? That would be like putting a Yugo hood ornament on my Cadillac!

    Installing a program named foobar would scare the hell out of me regardless of the installation method.

    -mcgrew

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    1. Re:OT- your sig by Constantine+XVI · · Score: 1

      If you didn't know, foobar is usually recognized as a placeholder name/variable in many/most technical circles.
      PS: While I prefer Linux, I would hardly compare Windows to a Yugo (okay, maybe ME and Vista, but 2k/XP is at least a Ford Taurus)

      --
      "I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
    2. Re:OT- your sig by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      I guess I should have added a smiley;)

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  55. Simple, but maybe not so simple by DaveWick79 · · Score: 1

    You wouldn't need to worry about weather because you'd have the laser link on a satellite. The satellite would have a gyroscopically mounted laser, and would communicate with the remote station via radio and they would auto-align their lasers accordingly. Once a link was achieved, it should be fairly easy to keep it established, and the satellite would simply relay the info back to terra firma.

  56. Who would have thought..... by Groo+Wanderer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Who would have thought that light could travel such a long distance?"

    Who would have though the Canary Islands are that big?

              -Charlie

  57. I know a better medium: Gamma ray bursts by slashdotmsiriv · · Score: 1

    Why not use GRB's, I heard they are pretty focused too and can "transmit" as far as 12.3 billion light years.

    My guess is that generation and modulation can prove challenging, but once we set our minds nothing is impossible ...

  58. Star Trek by michaelmalak · · Score: 1

    So now they've invented tightbeam communications?

    1. Re:Star Trek by PhxBlue · · Score: 1

      Nope. Tightbeam space communications have been around for years. :)

      --
      !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
  59. Almost any radio transmitter. by TerranFury · · Score: 1

    Out in the depths of the universe I'm sure there's some object somewhere which emits coherent radio frequency radiation because of some physical process

    Wouldn't that just be a standard vanilla radio transmitter? If you're putting out a signal of constant frequency and phase, it's coherent. Agree?

    1. Re:Almost any radio transmitter. by pclminion · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that just be a standard vanilla radio transmitter? If you're putting out a signal of constant frequency and phase, it's coherent. Agree?

      I agree with your last sentence, but I don't think any radio transmitter is going to have "constant frequency and phase" to the level required to compare it with a laser. A laser is pretty much a perfect plane wave. I have never heard of a radio transmitter that could produce such a wave. I'm no expert in radio, though.
  60. HA HA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OWNED!

  61. WRONG! GO TO THE BACK OF THE LINE! by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

    Gravity Waves are theorized to propogate at the speed of light. If not, cause and effect can be violated.

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
    1. Re:WRONG! GO TO THE BACK OF THE LINE! by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

      Oops! Did the reference wrong.

      Gravity Waves are theorized to propogate at the speed of light. If not, cause and effect can be violated.

      --
      Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
  62. Careful what you wish for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Careful what you wish for!
    Things are not always what they appear to be.

  63. Wait, slow down cowboy by gravis777 · · Score: 1

    "Oh sorry, we can't get the data today because its cloudy" You are assuming that the recieving station would be on the ground. No, in a case like this, you would have your recieving station in orbit, then simply have a satellite link to ground controlers. You could easily get the speed you are looking for, just don't expect to play a deathmatch of Unreal with someone 1.5 million miles away.

    In the vacume of space, you would not have to deal with light scattering either. However, I do see a problem with this. This looks like it would be great with, say, a moonbase, which is going to stay stationary on the surface of the moon. However, I do not see a real practical use for planetary spacecraft that are constantly in motion. With a laser communication system over that distance, you would have to have amazing pointing accuracy between the sender and reciever. If its off by even a hair, the laserbeam is going to miss the reciever by hundreds, if not thousands, of miles. With radio, you can at least point your high gain antennas "toward Earth", and anyone with an antenna on the ground pointing in that general direction at that frequency could pick up the signal. With laser, if you are pointing toward a satelite, you are no longer pointing at a huge circular object 24,000 miles in diameter, you are pointing at a satellite roughly 50 feet across to a reciever on that satelite that is roughly a few inches. IF, by some miracle, you were able to line it up, the spacecraft will have moved before you can even get verification of a successful link. So, no highdef realtime video from a planetary flyby.

    However, and it would be tricky, and probably longer distances then they are planning on, but if you put a satelite in Earth orbit, and one in Mars orbit, and have them stationary (not geosynchronous, I guess stationary is the word I am looking for), then you might be able to establish a long term laser communication between the two. You could then have your landers on Mars uplink with the Mars orbiter when they come into view using satellite communications. This would lead to higher date rates to Martian ground vehicles, meaning less time needed to send and verify commands, and we no longer have to wait several minutes to get a high res picture, as it could probably send us high res video (with a strong enough antenna on the ground).

    My question is, is this really a new concept? I am pretty sure I have read about similar technologies in Sci-Fi novels. This may be just the first time that they actually tried it.
  64. One-word refutation (Was Re:Never saw this coming) by idontgno · · Score: 1

    streaming

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  65. More rapid by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    Well, high bandwidth maybe once the link is up, but the speed of light is still the same, so the delay doesn't change.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  66. Friis Transmission Formula by dunc78 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Inverse square law applies for isotropic (all directions) as well as directional sources (focused beam). The way the difference is handled is by introducing an antenna gain term, where the gain at a given point in space is defined to be the ratio of the power density due to the directional source to the power density of an isotropic source. In communications applications, you use Friis' Transmission Formula to compute received signal-to-noise ratio which includes a factor Pt*Gt/(4*pi*R^2), which is the power density at a receiving antenna (lense) a distance R from the transmitter, where Pt is the Power Transmitted and Gt is the gain of the transmitting antenna (lense). For a laser it is easy to get a high Gt (very directive) with a small lense because the wavelength is so small, but that still does not get one around the R^2 relationship.

  67. Re:One-word refutation (Was Re:Never saw this comi by gstoddart · · Score: 1

    One-word refutation: streaming

    Wow, and what a stunning refutation it is.

    Has it occurred to you that the Voyager probe which was launched some 30 years ago may not be able to do that? Or that the protocol they used to ensure no data loss as the bits travel for several million or more miles would preclude streaming? Cause, really, if you're streaming out of a circular buffer, and the recipient says "what?", you have lost your data. When you're sending something into space as far as Voyager, you really can't afford any data loss. You have to treat every piece of data as if it's the most valuable data you're ever going to see -- cause it might be.

    I'm sure the specific issues of getting data from Voyager which is old, very far away, built with minimal data storage, and too late to modify are slightly more complicated than your over-simplified solution of just streaming data.

    It only does what it does now, and it's too late to change that. Just because it works for Real Player, sports feeds, and pr0n, doesn't make it practical for something which is at the edge of our solar system. :-P

    Cheers
    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  68. Already been done by NASA and farther by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  69. Re:One-word refutation (Was Re:Never saw this comi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The idea of streaming data is a fundamental construct in digital communications--and analog to digital converters (and conversely, digital to analog converters). Voyager had plenty of this type of technology, since all of its instruments were analog in design, and the outputs had to be converted to digital for processing, storage, digital to analog conversion, and finally transmittal back to hearth--i.e. a buffer, another significant idea in digital communications and processing technology. Furthermore, if we multiply by the rate these actions happen at, we get data rate.

    If you can't get past this very, very basic idea, there is no hope for you here. In which case, please destroy your geek card and immediately exit the internets.

  70. Not In Space by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    To prove that data transmission across the vast distance of 1.5 million kilometres is really feasible, the Oerlikon engineers had devised a special experiment in which they set up a laser link between the islands of La Palma and Tenerife. The transmission unit was modified in such a way that the conditions on the 144-kilometre stretch between the islands exactly reflected those that would prevail on a 1.5 million kilometre link through space. This was achieved primarily by reducing the emission aperture of the laser to a diameter of less than half a millimetre in order to weaken the light signal.

    "Exactly like in space", except for the medium being (mostly) vacuum, extreme distance of gravity fields like that right next to the Earth, or interaction with all the other stuff, some unpredictable, along the vast interstellar distnaces.

    "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra
    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Not In Space by Toad-san · · Score: 1

      Yep, bunch of crap. They didn't communicate millions of KM .. they communicated 144 KM, and faked the rest.

      Which means if I "exactly reflect" the conditions of 1.5 million kilometers of string between two tin cans .. I'll have demonstrated its feasibility as well?

      When they send an actual signal 1.5 million KM through space, I'll be interested. Until then, fageddaboudit.

  71. NASA already did it during APOLLO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NASA already did this during the APOLLO days by bouncing a laser of the moon.
    The earth-to-moon distance is 385K Km which round trip would be 770K Km.

    Thus 770K times 2 is 1,540KM or 1.54 million Km which is two round trips to the moon.

    The only thing they didn't do is transmit data as far as I know.

    As for the article they did it all in the earths atomosphere vs. NASA which was part
    atmosphere and part space.

  72. They must mean "after further development" by mbessey · · Score: 1

    1.5 million Kilometers is not very far, even in terms of the solar system. It's about 0.01 Astronomical units, or about 1% of the distance from Earth to the Sun, or 2.6% of the distance to Mars (at closest approach).

    You'd need a much more powerful laser, or a more sensitive detector, to communicate over inteplanetary distances.

  73. Impressive...but can the US use it? by nickruiz · · Score: 1

    Unless it works in miles, the US will never be able to use it. We don't fathom kilometers here.

  74. Figure of merit. by SETIGuy · · Score: 1
    One figure of merit in the space business is energy expended per bit transmitted. At 1.4 kbps from a 10 watt transmitter, each bit trasmitted costs 7.1 mJ of energy.

    Now lets assume that we've got a 10 W green laser with a 10cm primary mirror on the transmitter with 1.40 arcsecond resolution.

    At 24 billion km distance that turns out to be a flux of 330 photons per second per square meter. Lets assume that our detectors have low background (i.e. we're photon limited) and that we want a bit error rate of 1e-6 and a detection threshold of 3 photons, so we'll require an average of 15 photons per bit, and for simplicity sake we'll assume we're using a compact encoding. We'll want, at the minimum, to replicate that 1.4 kbps that the radio transmitter gets.

    So we need to receive 21000 photons/second, which corresponds to a telescope area of 64 m^2 or, equivalently a 9 meter effective diameter primary. Keck would do nicely, but might be a bit more expensive than the Goldstone antenna. If you want to do twice the bit rate of the radio tranmitter, you'll need both Keck telescopes or a 13 meter telescope.

    In other words, lasers aren't quite the panacea for interplanetary communications that they might seem to be at first. You can increase bandwidth by increasing the size of the receiving telescope, but you can do that with radio, too. It just cost money. You usually don't have the option of increasing the size or power of the sending side in either case. For radio, big dish antennas are heavy. For optical, sub-arcsecond pointing systems are heavy and expensive.

  75. Real Genius? anyone? anyone? by MrPinstripeCom · · Score: 1

    Never...no, no, ALWAYS, check your references...

    What would you use a laser that big for?

    I dunno, making enormous swiss cheese?

    Didn't anyone ever tell you to make sure your optics were clean?

    Here, try this
    what is it?
    I dunno, i found it in one of the labs....

  76. Radio to Laser to Radio by teledyne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This would work really well in environments that are pretty clear. I only studied a little astronomy but, what if we were to:

    - Use radio from the ground to orbit? I think this is pretty common already. Lasers as we know suffer more from weather than radio.
    - Use laser from Earth orbit to furthest possible point without a significant signal loss.
    - And then, use radio from that point on?

    Imagine you're trying to send a signal from a clear area, through a forest, to another clear area. Laser wouldn't work through the forest, but radio would.
    I also think that laser would require more power than radio, making it more feasible to have laser power outside of Earth orbit, then using radio for further away.

    What do you think?

    1. Re:Radio to Laser to Radio by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 1

      I think that a laser would require LESS power, as the beam is collimated.

      If, at 1.5 million miles, you need X broadcast energy for radio waves to reach your target (with your broadcast traveling as an expanding sphere), then with a laser you would need only enough energy to 'light up' a portion of the sky that represented your target.

      So in order for Y energy to reach your target, it would look like this:

      Radio- X energy
      Laser- X/z energy, where z is a large number

      I'm really tired, otherwise I'd post the real math.

      -b

      --
      No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
  77. As a storage device by MadYodacolon · · Score: 1

    I read a novel by David Gerrold called Jumping off the Planet. The author refers to inter stellar lasers being used as a long term way to store data as the lasers just continue to transmit the stuff around indefinitely. Interesting, not sure of the practicality though.

  78. gigameters, instead of million kilometers? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

    You don't hear about 80 million kilobyte hard drives. Why not gigameters instead of million kilometers? Well, perhaps that'd start the confusion between powers of 2 and 10-- is 1 megameter 1024 kilometers or 1000 kilometers?

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  79. huge distances??? by jc42 · · Score: 1

    ... across a distance of 1.5 million kilometers ...

    Huh? That's 5 light seconds. That barely gets you past the moon. It doesn't get you anywhere near another planet, much less out into the "universe".

    Let's hold off talking about "huge distances" when we're dealing with at least a few thousand light years. (Even then, that doesn't get you outside the galaxy.)

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    1. Re:huge distances??? by captainpanic · · Score: 1

      So, I applied for a budget for my new test to check if a laser connection works at a distance of a thousand light years. The test starts tomorrow, and the first results are due in... oh, wait.

  80. Been there, done that. by beckettmw · · Score: 2, Informative

    JPL's been working on it too for a while now... and with similar datarates, and a ground acquisition plan to boot.

    http://lasers.jpl.nasa.gov/PAGES/pubs.html#ocd

    But, yes, a laser link indeed is desirable. Sure, we can still contact Voyager with radio telescopes, but even from the Mars rovers, notice how it takes so long to get from Mars to grainy B&W picture back on Earth?

    Sending back live video feeds and more full colour images sets the data rate bar much, much higher. Getting this much data back quickly is limited by the frequency of the radio waves/light. Laser light has an over 1,000 times shorter wavelength than Ka band radio telescopes can manage (that's what NASA uses now to talk to the Mars probes), which increases the potential amount of data that can be sent in a given timeframe by essentially that amount.

    In addition, because laser light is focused so narrowly, it wastes much less energy than a radio antenna which must spray a good portion of space with radio waves in order to hit Earth. Imagine focusing your mag-light in the dark... the narrower the focus, the brighter the beam gets, because more energy is packed into less space. The challenge though, is that you have to aim much more precisely at Earth to compensate for that more focused beam.

    Here's a great overview of JPL's long-term vision:

    http://lasers.jpl.nasa.gov/PAPERS/REVIEW/overview.pdf

  81. a good book to read for laser nerds (and business) by wikinerd · · Score: 1

    As a good nerd, one of the books I love most in my library is David G. Aviv's Laser Space Communications (2006). It is really one of the best introductory books for any laser or communications nerd. I actually do some personal research in the area as I know very well that in the future laser space communications will become a multi-billion industry, thanks to the greater presence of humans in space. Considering the 5-GENIN (fifth-generation Internet), I can predict that more Internet entrepreneurs will move into space when it becomes more mainstream. The laser space communications is an example of a technology which if you can make a contribution now or formulate a good idea you are likely to become rich easily and quickly (unless our space development gets delayed by a major war or catastrophe).

  82. Re:Never saw this coming? Really? by aqk · · Score: 1

    But consider the pigeon's unique capacity to recognize objects regardless of spatial orientation.

    The common gray pigeon can easily distinguish among items displaying
    only the minutest differences, an ability that enables
    it to select relevant web sites from among thousands!


  83. It's overkill by MartinJW · · Score: 2, Funny

    What we really need is a laser that travels a few feet, and makes a swishing noise when you wave it around.

  84. Re:One-word refutation (Was Re:Never saw this comi by idontgno · · Score: 1

    Sarcasm is no substitute for thought.

    Here's streaming, ca. 1950: take a sensor. Wire it to a radio transmitter. Operate the sensor and the transmitter.

    Storage required? ZERO.

    Kids these days. Everything's gotta be digital, buffered, and pr0n-compatible. Sheesh.

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  85. Useful for Lunar X Prize? by Harlan879 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If I recall, one of the requirements for the new Lunar X Prize is the shooting of some high-def video from the lunar surface. (For some *very* pricey stock footage!) I imagine it would be much easier to do that with a high-capacity link, such as what you'd get with a laser. This is the sort of technology that the X Prize (and NASA) should be supporting.

  86. Radio "Link"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What, pray tell, is a "conventional radio link"? Actually, don't bother. There is no such thing. Radios merely broadcast without knowing anything about who is receiving the signal.