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Japan to Start Fingerprinting Foreign Travelers
rabiddeity writes "If you're planning to visit Japan sometime in the near future, you should be aware of the welcome you'll get. Last year, Japan's parliament passed a measure requiring foreigners to submit their fingerprints when entering the country. The measures, which apply to all foreigners over 16 regardless of visa status, take effect tomorrow. The worst part: the fingerprints are stored in a national database for an "unspecified time", and will be made available to both domestic police and foreign governments."
I already live in Japan... I wonder if I will have to do this if I go on vacation and am coming back home?
Welcome to the rest of the world's dilemma if we want to even transit through the USA. I've avoided it for the past...3, 4(?) years exactly for this reason. I wouldn't be surprised if Japan is doing this kind of as a big 'FU' to the States.
lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
Korea is like Japan's younger sister. Just don't let any of either party hear you say that. :)
Am I supposed to just accept that this violation-by-proxy is legal?
Did you know that you leave fingerprints on everything you touch? Anyone can track you anywhere you go!!! All they have to do is "lift" the prints off the surface. It's a privacy nightmare.
Could it be?
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/07/0127227
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/08/125235
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/26/1944228
Yes, apparently it could. Japan isn't the first by a long shot.
Only the guilty need worry.
And while I am at it, can I interest you in some Florida Condominiums?
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
It probably will never negatively effect you. However, some people object to being treated like a criminal for no apparent reason.
I take it you don't object to the police searching your house or randomly stopping you and giving you a cavity search either? That could also help in catching criminals.
*grumble* I leave for japan in a month for 2 weeks, I really don't like this, but I love visiting Japan, and guess not visiting would be worse to me. :-(
:-(.
Sometimes you have to make sacrifices when you enjoy something or someplace.
When the US started to fingerprint foreign travellers, a whole bunch of countries threatened to do that to visting US citizens. It is nice to see Japan follow through with their threat, albeit a few years later (although they are not just focussing on US citizens). I can see a bunch of Americans getting really upset about this and declaring they'll never travel to Japan, but what the Japanese Government are doing is really no different than what the US Government is doing to everyone else.
Personally I don't like being treated as a criminal. However, as much as I could complain about it, it won't be stopping me from travelling.
"We require these fingerprints for your health insurance," he said. "But of course, since our atmospheric pollutants have raised the cancer rate to 50%, you'll probably want that cancer insurance, unless you want to go bankrupt as you die of voracious tumors which suspiciously resemble health care executives." His smile flashed the wisdom of Satan and the plaintive honesty of Jesus Christ, and I could not resist.
Anti-Globalism
Because the US is the land of the free
...
...
What? Why are you laughing so hard.
If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
I have permanent resident status in Japan. This is the equivalent of a landed immigrant in most countries, however it is more permanent as you essentially have it for the rest of your life unless you become a Japanese citizen or leave Japan without a re-entry permit. This status takes a very long time to get (5-10 years) and requires you to submit tons of personal information and have Japanese guarantors. One of the benefits has been that you can line up at the Japanese citizens counters at airport immigration and be through very quickly. (My record: plane to train in under 5 minutes)
Despite this, from this Tuesday I will be required to line up with the regular foreign tourists and have my picture and fingerprints taken every time I enter Japan and every time I *leave* Japan.
Also, I still have to make sure I have a re-entry permit which I have to get every 3 years or I will lose my status completely.
All of this because I *might* be a terrorist or criminal.
The one thing I wonder is, if I pass away during a trip abroad are they going to take my picture and fingerprints when they bring my body back to the nice gravesite in rural Gumma prefecture where I'm going to be buried when I die?
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
Very soon, they will realize that taking thumb prints has no effect at deterring a man ready to "meet his God" or "getting rewarded with 70 virgins", just like the we did.
Trouble is, it will become quite apparent very late in time. Thanks to the US.
Isn't Japan doing this to all foreigners, not just those from the US?
America has been doing this to citizens of every single country except Canada for many years now. Even up here in Canada we figure it's only a matter of time.
Each new power given to the government must be balanced by a power of the citizenry. Else, this is just another step on the path to a facist state.
These new powers of surveillance and databases that we're giving our governments are vast. Never before in history has a country been able to monitor the movements and transactions of everyone, with so much precision. I know of no balancing power that has been given to the citizens in countries such as the US, UK, and now Japan, to check that the government is not abusing these powers. And the citizenry certainly does not have the equivalent power of knowing the private travel habits of their officials.
The fact of the matter is that these kinds of powers are far more useful for tracking law-abiding citizens than catching criminals. You don't catch criminals by identifying all the non-criminals. The database of non-criminals is totally useless, since any truly nefarious characters will avoid it, and not end up in your database at all. These kinds of things are often justified on the basis of preventing petty crime. But, this is far too large a power to give the government to reduce petty crime. Petty crime will never hit zero.
Instead, these new kinds of powers have far more use in tracking political enemies and corporate espionage. For instance just before the next G8 summit you can bet there will be new names on the no-fly lists. Before a major political debate, the challenging candidate will be denied travel. Governments will be able to determine when competing corporations are traveling for a meeting, and deny entry to those people. For people who are not political dissidents or corporate higher-ups, the only possible consequence besides deterioration of our democratic systems is that we will end up being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and be accused of committing a crime. The dragnet will have found us. And the evidence will be ironclad. Because, fingerprints are never wrong, are they?
I need a succinct way to explain these issues. The fact of the matter these arguments always come down to the brain-dead simple arguments that are difficult to refute: a) This will help catch <latest bogeyman>; and b) I'm not a <latest bogeyman> so why should I care? I need a one-sentence refutation to these arguments to give the people that don't think very hard about it. Obviously those interested in preserving freedom such as myself are not winning this argument. Anyone want to suggest one in the comments?
--Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
...for all of us gaijins going home for the holidays! Needless to say, I'm not pleased.
Bonus points for this idiot minister using a bullshit "a friend of a friend is in Al Quaeda, therefore all foreigners are dangerous" claim to justify this crap.
Japan has gone further. Not only are visitors fingerprinted and photographed but also foreign residents like my friend Terrie LLoyd in the second article who has been there for almost a quarter of a century and who has started several successful companies that employ Japanese citizens.
What is most irritating is that Japan really doesn't have reason to fear an international terrorist incident on their soil. As Terrie says, all the terrorist incidents in Japan have been done by Japanese and the amount of crime by foreigners in Japan is minuscule compared to the overall total.
This is xenophobia pure and simple and will kill whatever tourist industry Japan was trying to get with their "Yokoso Japan!" campaign. A lot of businesses will avoid Japan because of these regulations as business travellers definitely do not like being treated as criminals.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
I'd recommend Singapore, where I live, but they've got my fingerprint here too. I'm not a Singaporean national; they took my thumb print back in 2006 when I was a fresh graduate from university, applying for a work permit. They have a national ID card system for their nationals and permanent residents, though. And it's linked to nearly everything.
Back in Bangladesh, where I'm originally from, they're implementing a national ID card system. To wide public support, btw.
In the Middle East (United Arab Emirates) where I grew up, they've been keeping foreign workers' passports under lock & key of their employers for the longest time, and issuing an ID card for foreign workers (the majority of their resident population).
Most expatriates living and working in these countries have been stomaching this stuff for generations now. The general rule is keep your nose out of trouble and no trouble will come to you.
Frankly this sounds like a good idea to me. I really don't have a problem with it. Someone please explain why I should.
Because being able to freely move about with out molestation is an essential freedom, which has been violated throughout the ages. It's time to say, No more! That's why. If you wish to give up your freedom, that's okay. But don't take away mine, please.
What?
No. This is not enough. I think they should do more.
They should:
In addition to all of this, all travelers should have to submit notarized copies of their birth certificate as well as copies of every page of their passport in order for officials to know everywhere they have traveled. Also, they would have to submit a special letter from the government of their country of citizenship that states that the person does not have any criminal records in that country. Also, they would be subject to an interview using a lie detector machine. All of this information would be kept indefinitely and shared with foreign governments. Also it would be sold for pennies to telemarketing companies and spammers so that they could target you for the products that you are most likely to buy.
No, they aren't going to do all that, but that's what I think they should do.
Ohh, the melodrama, playing the race card too.
There are varying degrees of being treated like a criminal.
Yes, but those things inconvenience me. This wouldn't inconvenience me.
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
Nobody modded him down, just so you know. His Karma is a little low...
Earn a % of cash back from Newegg, Tiger Direct, Walmart.com, and more: http://www.mrrebates.com?refid=458505
The new system is being introduced as Japan campaigns to attract more tourists.
Oh yeah, that'll work. "Over to your right, you can see and experience our meddlesome bureaucracy at work. Just follow the rubber yellow line to be stamped and printed."
What?
... will look like 12-year-old Japanese schoolgirls since the authorities will be too busy checking out their panties to suspect them.
How would this negatively affect me?
The extra minute or so per passenger adds up, when you're waiting in line.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Now the U.S. will have access to fingerprints of US citizens who travel to Japan without ever having to lift a finger. I'm sure they will push for all other governments to start doing this -- where upon anyone who ever traveled outside this country will be fingerprinted by others and all of it put into some worldwide database.
I'm sure Bush is going to give his thanks to the Japanese Prime Minister one of these days.
True. And you should open your doors to police searches without notification or justification whenever they want, because if you have nothing to hide, why do you care? The only people who should exercise their liberties are those who have things to hide. That way we can outlaw all liberties as merely tools of criminals. Good thinking, sport.
You do not want to get cavity searched in Japan!!!!
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/culture/waiwai/news/20071115p2g00m0dm016000c.html
Yep, and too many people have cashed in.
If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
or randomly stopping you and giving you a cavity search
Some people might actually even enjoy it.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Japan seems to have an obsession with foreigners as criminals. This despite (what I've heard) a rather obvious all-Japanese organized criminal underworld. Apparently, it's still possible in Japan to see business establishments that blatantly refuse to cater to foreigners. Sod 'em. I don't want to go badly enough that I'd subject myself to that mess.
I don't know where you are from, but around here you don't get printed unless you're being charged with a crime. I'd say that that qualifies. I also didn't know being in jail was something to be proud of.
That arugument works as much as the argument that nations are becoming police states because they all have groups dedicated to keeping peace. There's plenty of things that can be considered wrong with the new policy, but your response is little more than reactionary bull.
It will be interesting to see what impact this new system has on business and tourist travel. I will be all smiles if it has a drastic impact and Japan relents.
I can't say I'm surprised about the xenophobia claim with respect to Japan. I've heard it anecdotally from several angles, that a lot of Japanese history has ingrained xenophobia into some parts of the Japanese culture and psyche. Most people groups have it to some degree, it seems to be more marked than usual in Japan.
So if I'm heading to Japan for a two-week educational visit at the start of 2009, What does this mean for me? (Apart from the obvious, my fingerprint being taken)
"Women are just like ninjas; They lie even when it is more convenient to tell the truth." ~ Unknown
There are two components to gathering fingerprints: The initial fingerprinting and the "match" found at an incriminating location.
Your privacy only becomes violated by fingerprints when a crime is comitted AND it can additionally provide evidence you were NOT in said location if your status as a criminal is ever questioned.
Fingerprinting is not a slippery-slope scenario as you are making it out to be.
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
Yup, your privacy is free to be taken from you.
Wait, looking back that looks more serious than intended. Mods beware!
"Women are just like ninjas; They lie even when it is more convenient to tell the truth." ~ Unknown
Privacy wise - Singapore's one of the worst places to go... which is why I'm so glad I got out of NS because I became a naturalized US citizen.
So um... What's the big deal? It's like having your passport checked at the airport... What, you don't think they keep a record of you? Nothing new, Some gas stations in the U.S. scan your index finger to keep a tab instead of using cash or credit. Is it a bigger issue of 666, the fear of some one else being in more control of your life than you? I am more ticked about the Social Secuirty tax in the U.S. more than this finger printing in Japan. Don't worry about it, every country will have something like this sooner or later. Not worth loosing sleep over it! Enjoy Japan!!! It is a beautiful place, honestly I haven't been there... but I've seen pictures :-)
Knowing that they want my finger print wouldn't,shouldn't, and doesn't disscourage me from wanting to go there! It might even give some people a sence of security. Not me, but other people might...
And what is exactly a big deal? How will CIA/whomever will use fingerprint evidence on US citizens from Japan? Unlike RFID, fingerprints can not be automatically scanned en masse from remote. You have to first detect a suspicious activity at a particular small, private location and only then it can be dusted for fingerprints. The activity at the location has to be unquestionably illegal. One can not deduce the content of your conversation with a decedent just by presence of your fingerprint in his apartment. On the other hand, a dead body is a valid cause to question all recent visitors.
I am more worried about California fasttrack lane and red light cameras than about this law. Unlike fingerprints, images of license plates can be easily OCRed and establish a very detailed profile of everyone's hour-by-hour whereabouts.
I've never been in jail (except for a tour) yet have had my fingerprints taken 5 times. First was at 16 when I got a job with a city. Second through fifth were for volunteering in a school, student teaching, and two teaching jobs. Being a huge supporter of privacy, I don't give a hoot. As another poster said, they can lift your prints from something you just touched. Let the Japanese government have its mostly useless and highly masturbatorial wad of security theater. They video tape you from a vast number of security cameras, which I find to be far more invasive. Your credit card number comes up wherever you use the ATM or purchase something. Hotels must see your passport to let you stay.
After a long flight trip the last thing I want is to be fingerprinted. This is why I refuse to travel to America anymore. I am more willing to fly to Japan though as the flight isn't as long and so I'm not as tired.
"Frankly this sounds like a good idea to me. I really don't have a problem with it. Someone please explain why I should. How would this negatively affect me?"
In the past, it wasn't uncommon to see 'foreign' travellers sitting on the floor in Narita, waiting to be processed into the country. They might be from Korea or Vietnam or even China - but the look on their faces as they sat on the linoleum (no chairs, sorry) inside a temp. holding area, marked by orange traffic cones, said that you didn't want to be one of them. The Japanese are pretty good at making outsiders feel uncomfortable when they want to.
If they were lucky, it only took a day or two to complete the process before they were released...some allowed to enter and some put on the next aircraft out.
Now, EVERY non-Japanese will be fingerprinted, photographed, turned into a number and forced to wait a minimum of 30 minutes more than whatever the process took before. Each and every time you come into Japan. Even if you hold a residency permit. I suspect the process will take a bit longer each time you come through.
When I was in Japan I stayed with a Japanese family I didn't know before then (it was through my school). Those people were as king as everyone else I met in Japan with them being as nice as Australians or Americans. I found no more xenophobia in Japan then I did in America. In fact I find more here in Australia :(
Brazil started doing this when the US announced it was doing it to all visitors a couple of years ago. It surprised me to see that it has taken other countries so long to start doing this too. What goes around comes around. We do it to the world, then the world will do it to us.
This also applies to torture and other interogation techniques like "water boarding" for captured soldiers. In the future our military personal should expect to have the same treatment that we are giving others with water boarding, etc.
That the last real terrorist threat to Japan's mainland was homegrown.
Whereas I'm just one of these crazy people who think they shouldn't have to show ID to travel.. even internationally.. let alone give fingerprints and have my picture taken.
Never forget that your government owns you.
How we know is more important than what we know.
How we know is more important than what we know.
The US has been taking finger prints and pictures of all foreigners entering the US since 2001 or 2002.
:)
For the Visa waiver program, I also need to fill out a form every time asking whether I am a nazi, have any infectious diseases or have the intention to commit terrorist acts.
It also warns you that 1f you check 'yes' to any of those questions, you may be denied entry to the united states
This policy is TOTALLY the opposite of what the parent wrote. The reason they are doing this is because under the guise of terrorism they are attempting to reduce the number of crimes committed by foreigners, including overstaying visas. The whole idea of terrorism has nothing to do with why they passed this policy.
The worst part of the government's shortsightedness is that A)They have take the policy of fingerprinting to new extremes (even more so than the US), fingerprinting EVERYONE including those with spousal visas and those with families in Japan, and B)there is no transparency at all in this whole process. There is a lot of talk that in order to become better friends with the US they will even be sharing fingerprint information while at the same time using the US 'terrorist' list to analyze people coming into Japan as well.
See for yourself how they are trying to convince foreigners living in Japan that this is not a violation of your privacy - "It's to fight terrorism". They have included videos on the immigration page:
http://nettv.gov-online.go.jp/channel.html?c=61
Look for the June 14th entry. Notice how the foreigners look angry in the beginning, but once they have it explained to them that it's for their 'safety' that everything becomes alright.
First off, I'd encourage everyone who opposes this policy to register their views with this online petition.
I would also encourage you to write a letter to the Ministry of Justice at:
Also, send a copy to the Japanese National Tourist Organization, making clear the impact on tourism, at their Japanese headquarters and your regional office listed at the URL below:
Not only is this policy an invasion of privacy, but also discriminatory in its application. Of the major terrorist incidents in Japan, none has been committed by a foreigner -- 1995 Tokyo Sarin Gas attacks, bombing of government office buildings in Hokkaido in the 70s, assassination of the Mayor of Nagasaki... all perpetrated by Japanese nationals.
Further, fingerprinting is dubious at best in preventing terrorist attacks. A terrorist organization capable of a serious attack on Japan is capable of entering the country without passing through immigration. From the point of view of politics, however, fingerprinting foreigners is an easy way to make it appear as though you're getting tough on terrorism and foreign crime.
Lastly, The Japanese government has produced an introductory video on the new scheme that you really have to see to believe. As the guy in the video says "I'll pass it on to all my friends". I get the feeling this won't have the effect the Japanese government intends it to have.
They've also put out a PDF version of the poster for this program.
Just curious what sort of visa are you required to do this? I have to have a passport to enter the US from Canada, but that's it. is this for non North American countries?
This was started by Americans fingerprinting foreigners. I was on a plane FROM Japan when the fingerprinting rules kicked in in the US a few years back. I watched how the big bad customs agents yelled and screamed at the little japanese grandmothers to wipe their foreheads to get enough grease for a good fingerprinting. When the agents realized that the grandmothers didn't speak english they simply yelled louder and louder, scaring the grandmothers more and more.
What goes around comes around.
What do you mean? My government is precisely the government that is the least interested in what I'm doing and where I'm going, it's all the other governments that keenly inspect my IDs and credentials.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
The point is that they get you used to giving up liberties a bit at a time.
They'll start out small with fingerprints, next thing you know it'll be holographic head scans and "safety cameras" on every street corner.
No sig today...
If you checked 'yes' next to 'intention to commit terrorist acts,' would they arrest you or laugh and let you through?
Legalize it.
As for the issue of "equally", the new Japanese law mandating the fingerprinting of foreigners is discriminatory and is unacceptable. In particular, the law exempts Korean citizens who reside permanently in Japan but who refuse Japanese citizenship. Roughly 45% of these "refuseniks" pledge their allegiance to North Korea. They send their children to special schools which teach their students to sing the praises of North Korea.
These Korean refuseniks deliberately refuse Japanese citizenship because they want to maintain their "Korean-ness". They believe that blood determines both culture and nation of loyalty. They are loyal to either North Korea or South Korea.
The Korean refuseniks have harbored this intense racist bigotry for decades. Since the early 1990s, this bigotry began to fade slightly, and the number of Koreans applying for Japanese citizenship has increased from 5000 annually to 10,000 annually.
In today's Japan, there is no discrimination against Japanese citizens of Korean ancestry. There is, however, justifiable discrimination against Korean citizens or any other person who lacks Japanese citizenship: for example, a Brazilian citizen of Japanese ancestry does not have the same privileges that a Japanese citizen enjoys.
The Korean refuseniks are exempted from the fingerprinting requirement because, in the 1980s, the Korean government demanded that the Japanese government end the fingerprinting of Korean citizens who refuse Japanese citizenship. The Korean government insisted that Tokyo fulfill this demand before the Korean government was willing to improve relations with Japan. As a result of this interference by the Korean government in Japanese domestic politics, Tokyo ended the fingerprinting of Korean refuseniks. The Korean refuseniks are also exempted from the fingerprinting in the new Japanese law just passed by the Japanese parliament.
There is a huge difference between Korean refuseniks and Americans of African ancestry. Some Korean refuseniks are descended from people who were forcibly brought to Japan during World War II. However, many Korean refuseniks are descended from people who voluntarily came to Japan during and after World War II. By contrast, nearly all Americans of African ancestry are descended from people who were forcibly brought to the United States. Yet, while the Korean refuseniks voluntarily refuse Japanese citizenship (that they could easily get), all Americans of African ancestry gladly want to be American citizens.
The attitude of the Koreans is utterly racist and bigotted. By contrast, most Taiwanese citizens who chose to reside permanently in Japan have conscientiously wanted (and obtained) Japanese citizenship.
In summary, the new Japanese law mandating the fingerprinting of foreigners is discriminatory and is unacceptable because the law exempts Korean refuseniks. Tokyo should ignore the Korean government and should resume fingerprinting Korean refuseniks -- especially Korean refuseniks who pledge their allegiance to North Korea. (The Korean government has been a far bigger pain to Japan than the Mexican government has been to the USA.)
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is different from US policy. EVERYONE who wants to enter the US legally with something other than a US passport is fingerprinted and photographed. There is no separate line for people with spousal visas or long term residents with a green card.
Japan doesn't care whether the foreigners are upset; indeed, most Japanese would be all warm and fuzzy inside if all of the foreign residents went 'home.' Tourists are okay, as long as they don't break anything and go away soon. Foreign invaders who start families? Not so much.
Legalize it.
Previously, you could go through at the Japanese citizen's counter on any status of residence provided your residence was in Japan and you had your foreigner registration card with you (i.e. not your first trip through, but presumably all your subsequent trips through unless your residency lapsed). I've done it on, let's see, International Relations (kokusai gyoumu, what the heck was that called again?), Engineer, and Cultural Activities visas before.
Ahh well. At worst, this is a minor nuisance which we'll be incurring a few times a year. The Japanese government already has given the both of us the nth degree, what is fingerprints added to that? And it will probably be as perfunctory as the "inspection" I am given at customs every time. (Full transcript of my most recent inspection: "Where is your company?" "Nagoya" "Have a nice day.")
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
The xenophobia in more conservative circles is perhaps more heavy than around where you stayed. Specifically, conservative government circles.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
Although I hate to fingerprinted and the whole I idea is just dumbfuck stupid (except that they want to weed out the "people" who come in/out with a tourist visa) the machine they use, and they way they do it, seems quite efficient.
... fucking pisses me off.
Plus there will be extra lines for the visa + re-entry permit holders.
Still,
"Freiheit ist immer auch die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1871 - 1919
Funny thing is I reconsidered going to the states to do some holiday shopping for the same reason (fingerprinting). While I have nothing to hide, I have never been fingerprinted and am hesitant to let another government have my fingerprints when my own government doesn't have a copy.
The good news for americans is that (to the best of my knowledge) canada hasn't caught onto this trend.. yet.
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Travellers to the US have been fingerprinted for some time - not to mention all the other indignities they endure. Reciprocity is a bitch, isn't it.
you had me at #!
It is incredibly unwise to try to joke around with these people!
A guy I know gave a silly answer to the question 'what is the reason for your visit?', and was held up for interrogation for several hours.
There's a very large difference between giving fingerprints and having your house or rectum searched.
The difference is only one of degree, not of kind.
There are two components to gathering fingerprints: The initial fingerprinting and the "match" found at an incriminating location.
Equivalently, there are two components to searching your house: the initial search and the "match" of something in your house that the cops think is illegal, or might be indicative of illegal activity -- e.g. "drug paraphernalia," even if the only thing you ever smoke in the pipe they turn up is tobacco. The point is that, without probable cause, they shouldn't be looking in the first place.
Your privacy only becomes violated by fingerprints when a crime is comitted AND it can additionally provide evidence you were NOT in said location if your status as a criminal is ever questioned.
Your privacy is violated the minute they search without probable cause, regardless of what they're searching is your house or your fingertips. Period. What part of "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, papers, and effects" don't you understand?
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
OK, maybe I am missing something here, but I really don't get what the issue is here. Sure it is kind of annoying to have your fingerprints taken. First of all, it's not like your fingerprints are hard to find, if someone wants to find them. So what? Is there anyone who really cares that much what I've touched?
Secondly, it's not like you have any privacy at all when you are traveling to a foreign country. You have to give them your passport. Your passport tells them exactly who you are. So why do you object to fingerprints but not to passports? If you also object to passports on privacy grounds, then you are probably paranoid to the point of being out of touch with reality.
Seriously, what is the issue here?
Qxe4
Since when is it illegal to be a nazi?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program
"Get off the cross - we need the wood" - Tori Amos
I was fingerprinted and photographed again upon re-entering the US after a 2 hour stay in Canada.
The questionnaire is for the Visa waiver program.
I have been photographed and fingerprinted for years when arriving in the U.S. or in transit over it. So why the big deal if other countries do the same? Or are the Americans afraid of this?
And what credentials give you the right to speak on behalf of Japan in this way?
Jeremy
True!!
Why is this a bad thing? What horrible, evil thing will the government be able to do if they have my fingerprints in a national database?
They permit the death penalty. It's not like I was planning to go there while that situation persisted anyhow.
Seriously, what the hell do you expect of a country whose legislation permits the same country to selectively violate such a person's right to life towards whom they have state-level responsibility? Can anything that is not enslavement be expected of such a nation? "As for Nihon, we will be the ideal nation-state whenever it best suits us. When it does not, you get boned. Fundamentally."
Fuck 'em. And fuck the US, China, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, basically every last damn African country and every other undercivilized shithole in the world.
In any case it is quite convenient, even if it isn't especially secure. That's what counts right?
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
There's a large difference between having had to give your fingerprints because you were arrested or just cause you MIGHT do something.
That's the first step you forgot to include in your story above and already shows a violation of privacy since you never had to give them before if you acted as a normal person not doing anything wrong.
Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai
I'd love to set up a stand selling gloves just past one of these checkpoints.
As some AC posted, I went with my family to Disney World last week, and they had finger print scanners. Needless to say I refused, and the lady said "what are you afraid of, unless you have something to hide". I reamed her a bit for insinuating that I might have something to hide.
Then she started with the bogus line "It is not a fingerprint, it is a biometric. All it does is measure the width and length of your finger".
When I still refused, and asked for my parking and admission back, at that point they let my family in quite quickly. Lesson? keep fighting!
THE BIG QUESTION... Where does disney store these, how long, and given the cozy relationship between Disney and the US government - how many of us believe they will not end up in the hands of the government?
It's only a matter of time before biometrics become mandatory most everywhere - and I'm not talking just international travel, but domestic travel as well.
... but keep in mind that young people growing up today are increasingly accustom to being watched, and many actually feel more secure being constantly monitored - they far outnumber the folks who avoid travel due to fingerprinting, etc ...
On an aside, several U.S. states, including California have required fingerprint(s) for one to merely get a drivers license for decades regardless of where one plans to travel...
Speaking of travel - even within the U.S., there are internal checkpoints where people (drivers, bikers, etc) are stopped and asked for ID and/or questioned about their activities - some checkpoints are for catching illegal aliens while others are for checking for contraband - typically invasive plants, foods, insects, etc that themselves are legal, but not for transport in/out of some areas, and then there are the DUI checkpoints and Safety checkpoints.
Point is that people in the U.S. have long tolerated / accepted many other invasive actions without any uprising. I expect that fingerprinting won't be any different in the longrun...
Many here speak of not traveling to such and such place due to fingerprinting
And it will get worse too - requiring DNA samples, IRIS scans, RFID tagging (already happening via passports), etc...
So again, it's just a matter of time before most everyone who wishes to travel anywhere is tagged, photographed, and profiled; barring a major revolution, it's inevitable.
Ron
Since when has Homeland Security used the LAW to detain, deport, investigate, or refuse entry the US?
Actually... I wouldn't be surprised if it was illegal in some states. In the 1950's in some states it was not only illegal to be a Communist, it was illegal to discuss Communism or even talk to a Communist. Amazing...
the "match" found at an incriminating location.
That depends what you mean by "incriminating location". Japan currently has a more or less democratic government, similar for example to the US, so at this moment this should not be a major problem. But in many other countries what they consider a "crime" you may actually consider a right thing to do. In such a case you would not want them to have your fingerprints.
Also, they say they will share the fingerprints with other governments. Which means that next time you participate in disseminating political flyers criticising your increasingly oppressive government, it will be very easy for them to find who you are.
AccountKiller
This is the attitude that makes me think this isn't nearly as bad an idea as it seems.
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
Sounds like a plot for Japanese Lesbian porn :)
They're not just doing it to US citizens. They're doing it to everyone. That's not pay-back; that's me-too.
Athy, athier, athiest.
Those of you who don't live in Japan might not be aware that as this rule is about to go into effect there has also been a large increase in random inspection of foreigner's immigration documents in Japan (Alien Registration Card).
Japan has never needed much encouragement to associate criminal behavior with foreigners. But I think in this case of fingerprinting we have the USA to thank. Its been almost satisfying to hear my American friends squealing about this. But not quite, two wrongs don't make a right and in any case, I lose twice now once now.
Back on track.... Anybody who thinks that this information won't be swapped backwards and forwards between countries is a moron. At some point a lot of this information will find its way into a common database.
cheers,
David
Nevermind most (and the biggest) terrorist attacks in Japan were commited by natives (Sarin Gas attack, etc).
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
This does not make it more acceptable. Next time they want a scan of some other private parts of your body.
Databases everywhere. And who takes care of the security implied in holding such sensitive data? I'm waiting patiently until some cracker gets into the US flight DB and then all the credit card data is stolen. I also don't like criminals to have access to my fingerprint data that is used for conviction somewhere.
Is this difficult to understand that this is wrong?
Oh man I love it Ken, right now.
I also like how these people below are so quick to assume that you're a NOVA teacher, when at the same time getting pissed about the finger print thing.
I personally wont be leaving this country until I have no intension of ever coming back, I think the fingerprinting of residents should be just as illegal as fingerprinting a traditional Japanese national.
Do they do it to green card holders in the states too or just tourists?
You were a visitor. You weren't staying there very long and I don't know how much Japanese you were able to learn and in which environments you found yourself but obviously you weren't there long enough to proceed to phase 2 of the Gaijin experience in Japan.
This happens when you REALLY start to learn to speak Japanese and start to talk to more of the citizens. When you get a job and have to do things like look for housing or deal with banks. Then the xenophobia starts to rear its ugly head. Landlords refuse to rent to you simply because you are a foreigner. You begin to understand the racist muttering from the older folks. You notice the condescending and discriminatory depiction of non-Japanese on the TV shows. Many gaijin go home at this point
Phase 3 begins when you accept that this is the reality of Japan and find ways to work around it. You move to the more progressive areas and modify your behaviour to fit better into the society. If you can get to this stage you will have a life-long love of Japan and all the wonderful things it has (geek toys, hot springs, and food, oh God the food!) despite all the negative aspects (pollution, crowding, expense, racism).
Eventually you may still move back to your country as some things cannot be overcome. In our case it was the education of our children. There was just no way we could put our kids through the Japanese school system and the living space we had was just too small to be comfortable. Hindsight has shown this to be a very wise move especially considering the experience of our kids when they have gone back to Japan for short-term attendance at Japanese schools.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
- mistreating of arrested suspects (forced confessions, arrests for undefined lengths, denying lawyer contact, etc)
- an extremely high conviction rate (if you are brought to the bench, you will very likely be convicted. Judges are proud of their conviction rates. Suspects are oriented to write confessions/apologies in order to get lighter punishments - even if they are innocent, etc)
- a police force not accountable to anyone
The above are true for japanese citizens, and doubly true for "damn foreigners who come to japan just to commit crimes".
So, it is not a case of "they might get you for an unjust crime", but rather - "if someone points a finger at you, you are fsck'd". Since they are only fingerprinting foreigners, if they get to a crime scene, where there are japanese fingerprints (not recorded) and foreign fingerprints (recorded), guess what is going to happen.
Singapore? The fascist city-state? Yeah, great privacy and freedom there. Just don't throw your gum on the floor or you'll get your lashed.
"You superiour intellect is no match for our puny weapons" - The Simpsons
Seconded... been there for 4 year...
Mostly xenophobic borderline illiterate inbred with rice farmers mentality, most of them only have TV as cultural education but will never miss an occasion to lecture you about anything always starting to yap their rubbish with "We Japanese...".
My view might be a little biased as I'm mostly in contact with doctors or scientifics. Maybe people in other profession are more enlightened, smarter or cosmopolitan... The Island os like a cultural and fashion dumpster. Anything can be sold as long as it's marketed as being the latest fashion in Paris or New York, since nobody will check, It will sell like hotcakes.
Also don't hope to find anybody speaking another language, be it english, german, french or brazilian (despite the huge community working for Toyota).
Their motto seems to be "only foreigner commit cries in japan, no foreigners, no crimes"
It start to get really old... before the end of the first week...
They probably get that three times a day. Not going to get much laughs out of that anymore.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
I do not think that businesses will avoid Japan, they are not really avoiding the U.S. at the moment, despite the same applies there.
Hopefully more Americans will now see what their own policies instills on tourists and business travelers, and maybe people will start calling for change in the U.S.
In the EU, we do not have this yet. On the other hand in the EU they will soon start fingerprinting all citizens that want a passport (though according to at least the state that I come from, the prints will only be stored on the passport).
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
"This also applies to torture and other interogation techniques like "water boarding" for captured soldiers. In the future our military personal should expect to have the same treatment that we are giving others with water boarding, etc."
As opposed to being videotaped as they get their head sawed off?
Hmm, I was going to reply to your post, and then I saw the spoiler in your sig. *sigh*. Now I just have to add you to my foe list instead.
It so happens that Tokyo and Chicago are vying to be considered for the Summer Olympics in 2016. I would like to put together a campaign (from a variety of people, civil liberty/privacy groups, etc) to ask that the International Olympic Committee reject any host city application whose nation requires photographing/fingerprinting as a condition of entry. Such a condition violates the human dignity principle of the IOC charter, as well as potentially surpressing visitors to that host nation (since many believe that the dropoff in visitors to the US is related to US-VISIT.
any good idea on what the actual answer was?
Considering this is Japan, it's probably more like the big brother raping the little sister in ways human anatomy shouldn't allow.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Don't worry JohnFluxx. Just go ahead and read the book and I'm sure you'll still be thoroughly interested. I can't get into details without adding more spoilers though.
1. According to a report by "The Economist", the Japanese government, by 2005, had apologized 17 times for the role of the Japanese in World War II. The Japanese government even gave a written apology to the Korean government.
2. According to a report by "The Washington Post", Tokyo paid $500 million of war reparations to Seoul in 1965.
3. According to a CNN report, a "Time" magazine report, and several other reports, Nazi symbols are popular in Korea. "A small photo of Adolf Hitler adorns the entrance to the Fifth Reich, an upscale watering hole in Seoul's Shinchon university district. A larger picture of the Führer hangs across from the bar, where waiters and waitresses with swastika arm badges mix drinks that have names like 'Adolf Hitler' and 'Dead'."
4. Koreans have viciously treated non-Koreans in South Korea. The Chinese immigrant community has succeeded in nearly every Asian country (including Japan). The exception is South Korea. The Chinese population in Korea declined from 50,000 to 10,000. "Many Chinese claim they were forced out by the Seoul authorities."
5. A reporter at "The Economist" wrote, "Koreans have always prided themselves on ethnic homogeneity, and feared and distrusted outsiders."
6. The U.S. State department has warned, "Citizenship [in Korea] is based on blood, not location of birth, and Koreans must show as proof their family genealogy. Thus, ethnic Chinese born and resident in Korea cannot obtain citizenship or become public servants."
7. "Purity" of blood is extremely important in Korean culture. "Traditional reverence for familial bloodlines [in Korea] and the social stigmas attached to adoptees as well as children who are disabled, mixed race or born out of wedlock limit local enthusiasm for the [adoption] program. Thus, international adoption continues to outpace domestic." "Because of societal values emphasizing the importance of bloodline, children were adopted domestically only by extended family or blood relatives."
Although a tiny percentage of Japanese citizens supports a revisionist history (as evidenced by the shocking memorial next to Yasukuni Shrine), the overwhelming majority of Japanese is aware of the correct history of World War II: specifically, the Japanese military initiated a war of aggression.
However, this unfortunate history is no justification, whatsoever, for the the racist and bigotted attitudes of the Koreans. Korean citizens who reside in Japan but who refuse Japanese citizenship should be treated as foreigners. These Korean "refuseniks" are loyal to either South Korea or North Korea. The Japanese government should fingerprint all Korean "refuseniks".
I have never been fingerprinted, and I have had a security clearance several times (Dutch, French and US), because I've worked as a civilian at space centers (Marshall and Kennedy), and military aviation (in France). They just did a background check and verified my identity with my passport. The U.S. clearance was in the early nineties, maybe its different now.
So the fact that the U.S. is now not so slowly turning into a surveillance state does not imply that the rest of the world is going to do the same.
Bart
I'm sure there is an international trade in fingerprints captured at border crossings - so if you get fingerprinted at a US Customs post then they'll be shared with the merry US/UK/CAN/AUS/NZ bunch (at least). I'm unsure how normal data protection laws apply in customs...
The thing I would say to potential travellers is that Narita Airport (the major hub airport some 90km from Tokyo) has enormously bureaucratic customs provision for gaijin. Last time I transited in 2002 for an overnight stay (no fingerprints back then) it took the best part of 4.5 hours to get through the non-residents queue. It seems it is the only function in the whole of Japan that is not super-efficient.
rdThere are special bars för nihonjin... Racial segregation is still an everyday reality in Japan, and most people seem to think it's perfectly normal. Imagine if governments enforced special race laws in Europa and the United States. We'd have riots and demonstrations, but in Japan, all is quit and sedated.
Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
Just found the Re-Entry Japan Blogspot page on which Gaijin provocateur Arudo Debito has posted that at Narita there will be at least one booth set aside for re-entry permit holders.
I also see some notes that initially, mixed nationality families (like mine) with at least one Japanese parent and children under 16 will be allowed to use the Japanese counters. (possibly to avoid the embarrassment of having the kids ask why Daddy has to be fingerprinted by a criminal)
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
That cannot be done, canada at japans request cannot say, "ok we delete you from canada" it cannot be done.
Japan might not recognize you canadian passport, but canada still will.
I may be wrong, but when I checked Italy, they said that they will never remove you from being an italian unless you committed war crimes.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
So what we should do is all answer yes ans swarm them with false positives. And on the other upside, we will not be able to enter the US.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Really, think about it.
a) Want my fingerprints? Sure, have at them. I leave them on everything I touch, after all.
b) Fingerprints could be used to identify me, if there were an American database of fingerprints I was in. I suppose the shadowy database could connect me to all sorts of private info that I wouldn't want the Japanese government having access to... of course, why would you query the shadowy American database by fingerprint when you could do it by a unique identifying number, name, birthdate, and place of birth. Good thing that the Japanese government doesn't ask me for those at immigration -- they just get to see my passport. Oh waaaaait.
Seriously, if Japan and America decide to conspire to screw me, I'm screwed. That is true with or without fingerprints. Thus, all this matters to me is that I lose another 5 minutes on top of a 16 hour commute.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
they ask whether you were a member of the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany (i.e., the Nazi Party) during WW2.
Thus amply demonstrating the lack of logic. I'm 33. World War II happened almost twice my age ago. How on earth would I ever be a member of the Nazi party? Time travel?
You know, I've had sigs turned off for a while now (I don't even remember when I did it) and I don't recall putting in that particular text as a sig as I'm just not like that. Maybe I've been sig-hacked.
As long as I can remember my sig was:
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
Those who live in the past are already repeating it.
- Me in one of my more lucid moments.
I would like to see your response.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
"On the other hands, 0.05% of all Japanese in Japan."
Only 0.05%? No wonder their birthrate's declining, everyone's running away so there's less people to copulate.
The joys of taking a quote out of context...
OSx86 FTW
US citizen: "How dare they! I, for one, will most certainly not be leaving my foreigner-fingerprinting police-state-becoming country to visit that foreigner-fingerprinting police-state-becoming country!"
I just got back from Brazil and I wasn't fingerprinted, i'm also an American. I did, however, have to pay exorbitant fees to get a visa. I'm in Korea right now and I didn't have to do much of anything here either. What do they do if you just refuse to give them your fingerprints? I'm going to take a boat over from South Korea, will I still get fingerprinted?
You're comparing an unaffiliated lone terrorist who commits a murder to a massive army that has officially sanctioned torture in its manual?
Every country has such places, remember just because a white american can visit most places in white holland, that doesn't mean a black american could. Racism is still very active and it is more accepted in areas were racial diversity is low.
But lets turn this around, are whites accepted in all black or muslim places in the west?
One amazing piece of racist behaviour was done here in holland a while back. People called employers and pretended to be muslims trying for a job interview. They claimed that they encountered racism when some of the people were refused, while if they tried with person who didn't sound like a muslim, they did get invited for a futher interview.
The most amazing racism however was NOT by the employers but by the people doing the experiment, it didn't even occur to them to call muslim employers and pretend to be gay or jewish and see if they would get invited. Racism is often very easy to ignore if you don't want to see it.
There are no such things as bars in japan that are legally for japanese only. They just got clubs that just don't give memberships to foreigners, or where a foreigner is treated so coldly that you wouldn't want to visit. Is it racism if the heavies in a club stand so close you just leave? Yes it is, but that happens in all kinds of places. People are racist.
For instance, the western religions have been under some pressure to allow women priests. Why is there no such pressure on female imans to be allowed? Because the people fighting sexism are racist?
Note that this measure of fingerprinting is NOT racist. It is NOT based on race, a japanese person who lost citizenship would also be subjected to it, despite being of the same race. Wake up, most of the world has different rules for foreigners then nationals.
Truly if you believe that there is one single country in the world that doesn't have places where foreigners are not welcome, you have lived a very sheltered life.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Well, I cancelled my summer holiday to Japan, a country I always wanted to visit. I will not visit a country that treats a visitor like a common criminal, which is why I don't go to the U.S. any more either. The countries that are doing this are losing out on tourist money - tough sh*t!!!
Take Nobody's Word For It.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3358627.stm
The guy on the desk just said "Oh, you need to put 'no' for that - I assume you're not a terrorist right?". How we laughed.
Not all immigration staff are idiots, some are quite nice.
throw new NoSignatureException();
Yawn. A country ought to know and control who passes through its borders, to include a background check and a recent set of prints to cross-reference with official records. Proving who I am bothers me not at all.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
I wonder how many people genuinely answered yes to the terrorism question? Ask a stupid question, expect to be lied to.
I find the whole issue annoying in the extreme, though not only because I don't want to be finger-printed, but because of the result of such laws. --That is, the overall effect is that such actions discourage people from traveling. Whenever a system goes fascist, they always try to prevent people from from traveling to other places. It's hard to realize just how oppressed you are, or just how much you are being lied to about other nations when you have no way to physically compare perspectives. Many people in the States, for instance, think that France is a horrid place to live and that the social services there don't work.
Japan is definitely under the rule of the Right these days. Hopefully they'll be able to undo all the damage which is being done to their country before it reaches the irreversible point. --Their government recently allowed new laws drafted by their department of defense dictating that school children must be indoctrinated with nationalist propaganda in the classroom. Charming. Classically, this means that war of some kind is about ten years down the road.
-FL
I wrote a piece for my school's paper on racism and xenophobia in Japan, as a response to the new fingerprinting law. It goes into a bit more depth about the other issues facing foreigners in Japan. http://www.themanitoban.com/2007-2008/1114/127.The.Land.of.the.Rising.Shun.php
Yeah, some methods you list actually do have a negative impact on something. Gathering fingerprints at the airport will slow travellers down, probably for a minute or two. So? You are saying that those minutes are absolutely too valuable to be wasted in this way?
I wouldn't be surprised if Japan is doing this kind of as a big 'FU' to the States.
Then, as an EU resident, I'd like to ask why the "'FU' to the States" affects applies to us here in the EU too.
Hell, we're used to seeing fingerprints being taken from suspects in the movies. Now, in reality, any tourist that brings money to their economy is suspect? Disgusting.
While I agree with the sentiment of your idea, the International Olympic Committee is only concerned about the financial aspects of the application. Well, logistics too, but they don't give a damn is the efficiency of logistics is used for oppressive purposes as long as the financials give them green light.
When the IOC awarded the fabled Olympic Games to the oppressive dictatorship in Beijing they publicly (and superficially) declared that the Games would result in greater freedoms for the Chinese (term which they ostensibly apply to the neighbouring peoples under Chinese military occupation as well). However exactly the opposite is true. The Chinese Communist Party, with complete control over the police, paramilitary and military forces, has the logistical muscle to prevent any and all dissent aimed at the regime or their Berlin '36-esque olympic party. The foreign press was given nominally increased freedom (which ends exactly when the games are over!) to travel and report in most parts of actual China (while the occupied Tibet is completely out of bounds) but in reality all reporters are still followed by the regime, people talking to them are harassed or detained and the reporters may still get kicked out at the pleasure of the local or central Party cadres.
Simply put, the supposed openness of the Chinese regime and the human rights interests of the IOC are nothing but a sham. In fact, top IOC officials have even picked up the Chinese Communist Party habit of lashing out at the "annoying and meddling human rights groups" who are trying to raise the issue of worsening human rights conditions in China with the IOC. Instead of showcasing the brotherhood and equality between peoples on this planet, the olympics have now officially become just another faceless money-grabbing organization willing to (ab)use its commercial prominency for rehabilitating and normalizing the image of an oppressive dictatorship which continues to hold its peaceful neighbouring peoples under genocidal occupation...
What comes to the battle between Chicago (USA) and Tokyo (Japan) in vying for the olympic circus of 2016, it would appear that travelling to either destination subjects the visitor to the same humiliating and xenophobic treatment upon arrival. However the saddest thing about democratic or semi-democratic countries imposing these kinds of surveillance measures on foreign visitors is that it gives the authoritarian regimes fake justification for further increasing their own gestapo-like measures against any potential domestic opposition. Unbelievably, the Chinese regime even publically plays up their role as a "US partner in the war against terror" as they "strike hard" (also the name of the campaign) against the Tibetans, Uighurs or Mongols who dare to as much as speak about freedom from occupation.
Sadly, the American right-wing lead marketing campaign about terrorism (see: using external threats in world history and politics) appears to have turned all of East Asia (with the possible exception of Taiwan) back towards more xenophobic policies and even militarism. Well, if one strongly believes in the religious inevitability of armageddon then this is certainly the way to go!
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
...business travellers definitely do not like being treated as criminals.Now this is the thinking you need to get rid of. Just because police takes fingerprints from criminals doesn't mean by taking fingerprints you are labeled criminal. It's normal to leave fingerprints. It's cool.
If business travelers were intimidated for hours with tough questions, that would be treating them like criminals. Or, on the other hand, quite normal for people outside the US who travel there. Nevermind. Well, throwing people into jail for a couple of days, now that's treating like a criminal.
Also don't hope to find anybody speaking another language, be it english, german, french or brazilian (despite the huge community working for Toyota). mostly because there is no such thing as a "brazilian language" :P
I especially enjoy the way US Customs treat you like scum when you've just come off a long trans-Atlantic flight. There was a sign up saying they promised to treat you courteously and politely and that you could complain if you found that wasn't the case but something told me complaining might not be such a great idea.
---
We spoke for about a half an hour. I don't recall a thing we said. - Colorblind James Experience
Isn't it rather easy to provide fake fingerprints? Using their kitchen-sink laboratory, the Mythbusters created false prints which were good enough to fool the most expensive fingerprint door locks. Are the scanners at airports any more sophisticated?
Here is the content of an email a friend forwarded to me, originally sent from the European Business Council in Japan to Europeans doing business in Japan. After the clipped email is the content of the MS Word attachment describing a new quick pass gate system, which it seems they got from the Japanese government.
I lost my first post which included this and a small rant. Whatever. I am quite unhappy about this, and it seems to reverse the direction they were going, but the U.S. remains the king of security theater and it is an easy political win I suppose. They already got my photo and fingerprint from my passport and old foreigner card but I know I'm going to hate this. If it is in fact required.
Forwarded Email:
---
Further to my message on new immigration procedures last week, this is to
inform you that Ministry of Justice has now issued instructions in English
on how to undergo pre-registration for the new semi automatic gate system to
be established at Narita Airport on November 20.
Please find attached the instruction document, which should be available
soon on the MoJ website.
---
[For Foreigners]
(Reference Material for the PR Dept.)
Operation of the Automated Gate
Ministry of Justice, Immigration Bureau
1. Introduction
Automated gates will be placed at Narita Airport from November 20th, 2007, in order to improve convenience of immigration procedures by simplifying and accelerating them. We would like to ask foreigners who wish to use the automated gates to provide their personal identification information (fingerprints and a facial portrait) in advance and register themselves as applicants in order to use the gate.
2. Registration as an Applicant to Use the Automated Gate
1. Required Items for Registration
1. Valid passport (including Re-entry Permit) and re-entry permission
2. Application form to use the automated gate
2. Where and When to Register
We will be accepting applications from November 20th at the locations stated below:
1. Tokyo Regional Immigration Bureau
Application Counter for re-entry permission (2F) 9:00-16:00 (Except Saturdays, Sundays, National Holidays and December 29th to January 3rd)
2. Narita Airport District Immigration Office
The departure inspection area at South Wing of Passenger Terminal 1: 9:00-17:00
The departure inspection area at the South Exit of Passenger Terminal 2: 9:00-17:00
3. Registration Procedures
Submit your application form with your passport and provide fingerprints of both index fingers and a facial portrait.
Then, when the official affixes a registration stamp on your passport, the registration procedure is complete. In principle, you can use the gate from that day forward.
4. Points of Concern for the Registration
1. Time Limit of Registration
You can register until the expiration date of your passport or the expiration date of your re-entry permit, whichever comes earlier.
2. Registration Restrictions
In some cases, such as when you cannot provide fingerprints, you may not be able to register.
3. Using and Providing the Registered Information
We will manage information including fingerprints and facial portraits provided at the registration as personal information set forth in laws on protection of personal informati
I flew to Atlanta from Montréal for a week-long stay this summer and all they asked for, aside from my passport, was the address where I'd be staying while I was there. They did x-ray my open-toed sandals, though.
My understanding is that Brazil is no longer photographing and fingerprinting anyone, even US citizens, but I think Brazil should have continued doing it. It was not legislation, but an action taken by a judge in a southern state (Rio Grande do Sul, IIRC) that led to the implementation of the policy in the name of reciprocity. I think Brazil should maintain (well, restore, now that it's not being done anymore) that reciprocity, because that's the only way to get bull$#!+ like the US policy, which forces fingeprinting and photographing of citizens of many but not all foreign countries, changed. Let a few executives traveling to São Paulo on business get pissy because everyone from every other country gets to go through without being treated like criminals, complain (in English, natch) and hear (in English) from the Federal Police that it's just reciprocity, and that if they don't like the way US citizens are treated in Brazil, they should take it up with the authorities in the US, who treat Brazilians that way. If a few high-ranking execs from banking companies complain loud enough in the US, the policy could actually change.
In addition to having read several articles on Brazilian news sites about the policy, I stood in the lines at the international airport in Guarulhos and saw the signs for the two separate areas after arriving at the front of the line. The looks on the faces of the US travelers, especially, the "look how important I am" types who had taken overnight flights in business suits and were getting out their newest-latest crackberries to make sure everyone could see them, were priceless.
FWIW, I am a US citizen, but didn't have to go to the "US citizens" area because I already had a permanent visa and several forms of Brazilian ID, including two with photographs, so I just breezed through the normal lines, exchanging a few pleasant words with the Federal Police agents (in Portuguese, of course) as I went.
"It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
i once heard of a way with powdered drano, cutting a small cut with an exacto knife in the second layer of skin(the one right before you bleed), putting a drano granule in it screaming and writhing for 10 minutes, repeat 3-5 times on each finger, doesn't leave any surface scarring yet completely changes your fingerprints due to under skin scarring. if you really don't want to get fingerprinted, do that lol... Disclaimer: Author does not endorse this idea, whether you do this is up to you, and I take no repsonsibility as to your actions. Translation for non nerds who MIGHT be reading slashdot: if it hurts really bad and you hate me for giving you a working but painful idea, its your own fault don't try suing me =D
-Noc
Just saying...
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
There goes my plan for a holiday in the next year or so. Thank you for the warning.
Dear Japan: Please note that people currently avoid the US for this crap, and now we avoid you.
As much as I'd love to visit the Land Of Anime.. No.
You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
This is the main thing I see as a problem in US Customs (and possibly elsewhere): The front-line officer has way too much power at their discretion. If you talk to a supervisor, they're likely to say "ok, I'll write up a report", and then you get deported by the officer (if not detained) and put "on probation" for entering, which likely means you won't be able to again without significant checks, every time.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
This also applies to torture and other interogation techniques like "water boarding" for captured soldiers. In the future our military personal should expect to have the same treatment that we are giving others with water boarding, etc. UM, what captured soldiers are you talking about? To the best of my knowledge, none of the members of the Iraqi Army that were captured when we overthrew Saddam were subject to water boarding or other techniques that could be called torture.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
I would suggest you not go to Universal Studios Orlando as well. They scan your finger print when you enter the park (unless you're a child) and they scan your finger print if you use their lockers, which some rides won't let women take purses on the rides, so you have to use the lockers.
Can I bum a sig?
What about plastic surgery which removes fingerprints?
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
Doubtful that you'll see anyone but the LDP running things for long time. Prior to the electoral reforms put in place by the coalition government formed in 1993, the multi-member constituencies allowed the LDP to run many candidates in a single district and effectively have each one try to cater to a specific interest group, and generally being able to sweep most if not all seats in the diet. However, as is typical in Japanese political dealings, the LDP generally tried to incorporate the views of the opposition in forming a consensus, so very little opposition formed. Electoral reform, with the new system being a mixture of proportional representation and single-member constituencies, did little to lessen the symptoms of de-facto single-party rule.
....that the Japanese are doing this, especially from their cultural view.
I live in Japan. Yes, like many others, I am an English teacher.
I teach their CHILDREN, I mean, middle and elementary, and they want to brand me a criminal?
Don't get me wrong- I speak Japanese bilingually (unlike most of my fellow teachers), but just because the others
cannot does not make them anymore of a security risk than I.
The thing is, it's true- FINGERPRINTING IN JAPAN is reserved only for proven criminals.
And this law treats everyone the same. Like a criminal.
Doesn't matter how long you've been here, what your job is, as far as *many* Japanese are concerned, you are
dangerous simply because you are a foreigner. This is due to: drunken fighting Russians (in my area), Pot smoking
teachers from my USA (also arrested in my area), and a general fucking SAFETY COMPLEX of the entire population. I won't even begin
to impress upon you the depth of how far the last one goes, but just so you get an idea, they devote national TV time to
discussing single local problems of mundane risk- I just watched a program show a whole news story on how people in one
village are pissed that everyone pulls U-Turns in their intersection. It's fucking surreal. This is my second time living
here, and I still can't believe it. Daily life here is a continual safety thesis overanalyzed by an increasingly frightened
and xenophobic populous. All it takes is one of us fucking up and the whole nation notices- take Mr. Pothead- he had to apologize
on NATIONAL TV.
Couple this with every single portrayal of foreigners on shows, commercials, & TV personalities, which paint us all as blithering otaku
idiots incapable of speaking Japanese without overly emphasised ridiculous accents, and THAT FUCKING VIDEO from the Ministry, which only
makes us look worse, and it does it with such blunt smugness and everyones favorite keywords "9-11" & "terror", and the Orwellian
doublespeak "Fingerprinting YOU is for YOUR safety"...
If this was addressed to the Japanese people, they would be infurated & insulted beyond belief in the way their own standards
of conduct are being completely SHIT upon as they are smiled at by the woman in the video.
So why aren't the Japanese complaining about this labeling of people working here and 99% living peaceably?
Because it's not them. Because it's anyone BUT them. Complete moral disregard. I love the Japanese, but HOW VERY UNJAPANESE THIS IS.
My personal biometric data is none of your goddamned business UNLESS I COMMIT AN ACTUAL CRIME. Excuse me while I burn my fingers on the
stove oh so conveiniently.
Um....hmmm...maybe, just maybe the form is generic and not made especially for you. I know that it may be difficultly to comprehend, but old people do go through customs as well. Sorry for the inconvenience, and please, try not to answer "yes" next time.
--
I am very much against the US policy regardless, but it's worth pointing out that the US does not fingerprint green-card holders.
I live in Japan. My wife is Japanese. I work for a Japanese university. I pay Japanese taxes. I have a Japanese driver's license. I have several Japanese bank accounts and a couple Japanese credit cards. I am on Japanese health insurance. I have the Japanese equivalent of a green card.
Yet I will have to go through the "foreigner" line from now on, separated from my wife, to be fingerprinted because everyone knows there was no crime in Japan before we dirty foreigners showed up. And I'll have to do this every time I re-enter the country, despite the fact that I am on a long-term spousal visa and already have to go to immigration every few years to get it renewed and to pay for the ability to exit and re-enter the country when I want. They already have every piece of information about me, where and how I met my wife, and a hand-drawn map to my house. If I had to submit my fingerprint, too, that'd be irksome, but I'd do it, but why do I have to do it every time I land at the airport? I live here!
Actually, it's not a "gaping flaw". I think the idea is just to prevent re-entry of people that do not conform to the rules. Sure, you can submit the slip without really leaving the country (whereafter you are an illegal alien), and if you leave sometime later, the mismatch can be detected if any data comparison is made with the actual flight data, which is available -> re-entry denied. If you just leave (and entirely fail to submit the slip in the time of your visa), you will also be denied re-entry.
Isn't the US doing this to all foreigners, not just those from Japan? (hint: the answer's not 'no')
Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
The problem with these measures is that they filter out the wrong part of the spectrum. People that has nothing to lose, that travels to become an "illegal" immigrant keep going, same with terrorists or any other evildoer. While the regular and "legal" tourists or workers think twice before traveling.
The local Library in my small rural Iowa, USA town. That's right as a kid in the early eighties I went to the public library to get my fingerprints taken and put into the system. We was told it was for security. In case a child ended up lost, they could ID them (the body) when found.
But sure it must be an outrage to have adults get their fingerprints taken. Um seriously. . . if they want to jail you, then they'll bring you in to the police station and fingerprint you then. And if you are worried that you migth get arrested for doing something illegal just because they have your fingerprint on file, then your probably already doing something illigal.
Self proclaimed wannabe geek. You know how it is. Most of us who read this stuff probably fit in that category.
This is one of the many reasons I don't want the government in charge of my family's health care.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
Why don't you have one of those LCD license plate covers. Just turn it on everytime you get near a camera. No tracking...
Here is a very high profile case of someone who did, in fact, successfully renounce his Canadian citizenship.
Of course, if you look into Conrad's story, he wants it back now!
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
Well, I have to say the timing sucks for me.. but it could be worse. At the moment I had plans drawn up, plane flights being discussed and dates being proposed for a Nice Holiday In Japan. I've yet to action the re-allocation of this plan.. but part of it will be to send a nice email to the Japanese Embassy in Canberra thanking them for their information and events over the last few years and advising them that I will never visit Japan to my great sorrow.
You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
"This also applies to torture and other interogation techniques like "water boarding" for captured soldiers. In the future our military personal should expect to have the same treatment that we are giving others with water boarding, etc."
Name a single "captured soldier" that was subject to water boarding. A single one. Can't do it, can you? Insurgents, who are, by definition, NOT soldiers, have been subject to these techniques. Uniformed soldiers of the Iraqi army were treated very well, with the exception of being paraded in front of cameras - and it was caught and stopped.
As for "expect to have the same treatment", our soldiers fully expect to be tortured, burned, executed, beheaded (not necessarily in that order) and have their headless bodies dumped in the river. That all started long before any allegations of torture were levelled against the US.
Water boarding and other similar techniques are wrong, and should never have been authorized, but the local insurgents and international terrorist organizations have NEVER played by the rules of the Geneva convention. Indeed, that is their whole modus operandi - targetting civilians in the full knowledge that the military cannot effectively respond in a civilian environment.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
"unaffiliated lone terrorist who commits a murder"
Huh? IIRC, Daniel Pearl was captured and held by a group affiliated with an international terrorist organization, was stabbed by all the members of that group, and had his head sawed off while being videotaped. Then that tape was delivered through clandesine means to news organizations. I missed the "unaffiliated lone terrorist" part of that.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
This reminds me of a scene from Good Morning Vietnam. (From memory)
"The problem with the Viet Cong is, we can't find them. It's hard to find a Vietnamese man named Charlie, they're all named Nguyen or Dao or something like that."..."So we walk around asking people "Are you the enemy?" and if they say "Yes" then we shoot them."
First off, if you follow Japanese politics, this is much less reciprocity than it is collaboration.
Secondly, I think we can all agree that both the Japanese and the US policies are an invasion of privacy. No one should be pleased that either exists. The fact that the US has a similar program in place has no bearing on the fact that this policy is crap regardless of the country implementing it.
I haven't visited the US since they've implemented their policy and, as a resident of Japan, the next time I leave the country, I won't be returning until this policy is revoked.
From my point of view, it means that when we move back to Canada, I won't be accompanying my wife and daughter on trips back to visit her grand-parents in Kyoto. It means that for the next few years, unless I want to be fingerprinted, my holidays will be taken within the country. To anyone seriously concerned with this system and/or willing to take a stand against it, this places some serious restrictions on your ability to move freely.
Do you live in a country that requires your fingerprints as part of its 'official records'? If that is the case, then I can understand your view but will disagree with it rather strongly.
In much of the world, fingerprints only become part a permanent part of 'official records' if you are charged with and convicted of a crime. Even fingerprints from arrests are to be removed from 'official records' after a period of time. In your example, anyone coming from Canada that has never been arrested will have NEVER been fingerprinted in their entire life. The reasoning behind this is simple: The assertion that fingerprints are part of 'official records' indicates that the individual is the property of the state, when in much of the developed world it is supposed to be the state that is the property of its citizens.
Countries that fingerprint all of their citizens tend to have legal codes and governmental systems built around the former; I have lived under both types of systems, and my own personal preference is the latter.
Having the history of every place you've lived or worked since you got to Japan right there on the back of your card is very handy when filling out those address update forms at the post office!
I wish I could think of a sarcastic remark for that time they put the big yellow banners up in Shinagawa station encouraging everyone to turn in foreign criminals. If the Japanese spent as much money on fighting crime in general instead of blindly blaming the gaijin, the crime rate might not still be climbing.
I lived in Singapore for 4 years circa ~ 97 to 2001.Yes you are not allowed to throw any Gum on the street ,not to spray any graffiti on Walls, not to make a nuisance of your self on the public transport system,not to play your music too loud in your home.Being a small city state has its advantages,there is no place in Singapore where you cant go with complete safety at 3 in the morning.
,We have a great range of Human rights here.
,i have to sit on dirty seats because people sit with their feet resting on seats ,listen to rude language and loud music(Freedon of Expression) ,Watch the coucils fight a losing battle with the ever increasing amount of irritating and franky nausious grafiti(Banksky it isnt).
,happy-slapped whatever by gangs of 12 -13 year old kids.
,THEY HAVE RIGHTS.Meanwhile, Mr Patel can go to the insurers or Retire, His Choice entirely ,after all he does live in a free country.
I have now lived in London for 7 years.Unlike the Small Crypto Fascist State
Therefore when i go home on the Tube
I also have the complete Right not to venture to Brixton,Camden and Various Council Estates unless i want to be mugged
I also have the complete freedom to see Children coming to the local mall after school and stealing AND then telling the Police to lay their hands off this because , get this
There is a Difference between Paper Rights and Actual Rights.Guess Which place had a Higher quality of Life IMHO.
Wanted : A Signature.
You're absolutely correct: the Japanese cannot force Canada to strip you of your citizenship.
The Japanese can and do require a letter from the Canadian government stating that you have renounced your citizenship and that they will strip you of it once the Japanese government grants Japanese citizenship. If I remember correctly, most countries are signatories to a UN treaty that makes it illegal for a country to strip you of citizenship if it will leave you stateless, which is why the two-phase approach.
If you obtain Japanese citizenship, then don't follow through with renouncing your other citizenship, the Japanese may strip you of your Japanese citizenship.
This has nothing to do with taking a poke at either the Japanese or the Americans. This type of invasion of privacy is wrong no matter where it takes place. We should all be making it clear to both these countries that this won't be tolerated.
Really? I've been to the US (from Canada) dozens of times over the past few years, and have not been asked to step aside and provide finger prints.
Perhaps the parent is in a unique situation?
So next time you take a plane to japan, just before leaving, take a candle and a needle... heat the needle a bit and put in on your finger print sideway.
This will mark them for a few days and make them slick wheere it touches the side of the needle (Don't prick yourself though!)
No, the Americans did not start this stupid airport mess. The Arabs started it, and in specific, the Palestinians started it when they decided to enact a policy of randomly selecting civilian aircraft, hijacking them, and murdering passengers in order to focus world attention on their political situation. This hijacking and selected murder (of Jewish passengers) policy started in the late 1960s and continued until the civilized world was forced to enact 'this airport mess' in order to try and stop it.
Please have no illusions about who is responsible for this current aircraft 'security' nightmare.
As much as I dislike the fingerprinting etc., I have never been treated badly by US immigration officials. I don't doubt that it happens, but just wanted to offer an alternative view. I fly London to San Francisco regularly (8-9 times so far this year, 6 or so last year), and the furthest they've gone was once asking me why I come so often to the US, with no follow up questions once I explained (they probably asked because I at that point only had stamps from SFO in my passport, and I had lots of them, - most other countries I go to don't stamp). They also ask the standard questions about what line of business I'm in etc., but that's it. Last time I got a tiny little bit of hassle because I'd forgotten to hand the visa waiver exit slip to the airline last time I left, but since I'd been admitted for 3 months and I was still within that period he only asked me to not do it again.
If you're Canadian then you don't have to do it (yet). As far as I know, if you're from anywhere else then you need a visa or visa waiver, which requires the whole fingerprint, photograph, declaration of not being Muslim, etc. N.B. I'm British, with Canadian permanent residency, and I have to do it.
"What do you mean? My government is precisely the government that is the least interested in what I'm doing and where I'm going, it's all the other governments that keenly inspect my IDs and credentials."
You must not be a US citizen. The US government is very interested in where you go and what you do. How else will they be able to declare you an "enemy combatant" and lock you up without due process? They need to know that, while you were in Japan, you stopped by a restaurant and spoke to the Islamic owner. Seems mighty suspicious to me... (Yes, that last part was sarcasm.)
Your mind looks a little cramped. Why don't you stretch it a little?
I don't know about your level of craziness, but there sure are crazy people who would love to travel as you without showing ID, commit crimes and have you serve their time in jail.
Phase 4 is when the novelty wears off. You suddenly realize that Asian porn doesn't do it for you any more and you need pictures with a blonde or a redhead with a big, fat ass. And breasts. Man, do you need breasts.
I'm very glad you've decided to roll over for this, but how about considering the possibility that just maybe, some people don't like the idea of being treated the same as criminals by the country they've been living in for the last 20 years?
Untrue unless this was changed very recently. Green card holders are neither fingerprinted nor photographed upon entering the US.
I wanted to visit Japan, but now I think I'll pass. I realize the irony in the fact that my country does the same to others, and I've been fingerprinted for my job, the DMV, and my CHL. If this were a preventative for terrorism I could understand, but what good is having a suicide bomber's fingerprints after the fact? I don't even worry much about security these days, odds are in my lifetime my credit card numbers will be leaked or stolen, everyone has my SSN number, even my cable company, doesn't even seem like a secret any more, so what difference does fingerprinting make? Don't expect much to change, but I'll at least my my stand here, and punish Japan by denying them my money and presence, but I think they will recover.
An I.T. motto in the hands of an idiot is a dangerous thing...
I guess Japan is finally taking lessons from Disney World. You should see the people allowing their fingerprints to be scanned with nothing more than a smile.
"You're comparing an unaffiliated lone terrorist"
If you're going to be using the rationale of "Treat our prisoners well so that our soldiers are treated well if captured," you have to look at what really happens to US soldiers when captured, and who it is the US is fighting against and most likely to capture US soldiers. As it stands, those captured alive are tortured and paraded around before and during their eventual execution, well beyond what happens to those in Guantanamo.
If you want to argue that the US should not use such tactics in absolute terms, go for it. But as soon as someone makes the relative argument that "We need to treat prisoners well so they will too" (as the parent poster did), you have to look at the real world "they," and not some hypothetical.
On the other hand you can flirt with the Japanese immigration girls and they will just smile shyly at you :-)
On a more serious note, the many times I have been to Japan, both the immigration and customs process has been extremely courteous, much more so then in the US and Canada. In fact I can't say I've ever had a bad experience entering Japan (other than having to wait in a queue for 2 hours).
]{
Canadians are exempt. It is the only country which is.
]{
Uh... if your passport tells them exactly who you are, why do they need your fingerprints?
What's the danger? Well, you might ask Brandon Mayfield. The FBI made an incorrect match between his fingerprints and some prints found on a bag linked to the Madrid bombings. If they had not had his fingerprints they could not have claimed a match. In his case the match was obviously wrong but the FBI experts claimed that it was a match. Fingerprint matching is not a strictly mechanical process and has a lot of room for interpretation. Furthermore, no one has ever proved that fingerprints are really unique.
I never "alluded" to anything - I was replying to 2 false aspects of your comment regarding "captured soldiers" and that our own soldiers will be subject to torture as a result of their actions.
1) The definition of "soldier" is in the Geneva Conventions, and the people setting off IED's, blowing themselves up, and shooting at civilians and soldiers in Iraq do not qualify. You might want to actually read the Geneva conventions before invoking them.
2) Your warning about the possibility of US soldiers being subject to torture in the future is a red herring - they are subject to torture NOW, and have been subject to torture by those they are fighting for many years. The whole world saw that US soldiers' bodies could be dragged through the streets in Somalia - from then on, the GC's haven't aplied to how US soldiers have been treated.
There are plenty of reasons why torture is wrong - you just didn't give any of them.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Persecution?!
Lol. The poor Nazis just wanted to be left alone...
Did you mean 'prosecution'?
------
beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his mind he dreams himself your master
Think of it as the Al Capone option. Even if they can't get you on anything else, they can nail you for lying on your immigation form.
...laura
It's not just Americans. The American bashers are focusing on the US-centric aspect of this too... which is ridiculous because it also affects them as well.
Phase 5 is where you don't care about how small Japanese women's chests are and start noticing how good Japanese women can keep looking as they get older.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
It is no longer possible to hijack a plane.
After 9/11, no passengers would stand by and allow hijackers to command a plane. This applies most strongly to any american planes. As an example, look what happened to the last plane on 9/11? The passengers, when they realized planes are being flown into buildings, fought back. People will always try to survive. If the choice (in the past) was sit quietly until hijackers get what they want vs. risk of getting killed, people played safe. Now, that choice is sitting quietly while plane will be crashed and you dieing or risk a death by fighting back, people will fight (safer option).
You do not have to worry about people as much anymore as the stuff that goes onto the plane. The baggages. The parcels. Today's "security" practices are not really doing that - they are still optimized to counter 9/11. But they wouldn't work back then. The terrorists back then could still intimidate and take over a plane by bluffing (why? see above for the old mentality of what hijacking meant for safety).
In conclusion, the reactionary "tactics" of people and policy makers (who should know better) are to blame for the "security" mess.
And how exactly is this different to the USA fingerprinting foreigners, even of "friendly" countries like Australia?
Letting foreign people take your fingerprint is just like letting them take nude photography of you.
Difference is, everybody would avoid a country having the latter as a law for tourists.
Something is wrong here.
He was modd'ed down for no reason. It was NOT "Redundant"!
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
I lived in Japan for 8 years, speak/read/write the language well, and still use it regularly in my job today. I love Japan and at some future point, might take a posting there with my current employer. And I'm fine with them fingerprinting all non-Japanese on entry. I lived there long enough ago that I had my thumb print on my gaijin card. No big deal. When I worked for a bank in the U.S., all 10 of my fingerprints were taken and put on file with the FBI. It's a condition of employment. No big deal. If I didn't like it, I had the option of not working at a bank. If I didn't like having my thumb print on my gaijin card, I had the option of not living in Japan. Nobody made me go there. I went because I wanted to, accepting that a lot of things are different there than back home. Some I'm not so keen on, some I like very much. If the bad outweighed the good, I had the option to not go, or to not stay.
Opinion, aside, there are a number of factual inaccuracies in your comments:
1) Fingerprinting in Japan is not reserved only for proven criminals. Anyone charged with a crime will be fingerprinted, and Japan also has previous history with fingerprinting foreigners (maybe you've even had a thumb-print gaijin card yourself).
2) This fingerprinting is not un-Japanese at all. If you think so, you understand both Japan and the Japanese rather poorly.
Apart from those errors, you present a mix of arguments that aren't even being made, plus some evidence that seems to support fingerprinting, rather than oppose it:
"drunken fighting Russians (in my area), Pot smoking teachers from my USA (also arrested in my area)"
(Aside: sounds like you live in Hokkaido.)
"Don't get me wrong- I speak Japanese bilingually (unlike most of my fellow teachers), but just because the others
cannot does not make them anymore of a security risk than I."
AFAIK no one in the Japanese government is making that claim. Certainly, the fingerprinting law doesn't provide an exemption for people who can speak Japanese.
Sure, Japan has a strong safety culture, but so what? During my eight years in Japan, I always knew the way to Narita airport, in case I decided that I didn't like it there anymore. If you don't like the safety culture, try SE Asia. I lived there, too, and people seem to go about with casual disregard for safety, doing a lot of really dangerous stuff all the time. Maybe you'll like it better. It's certainly a change of pace, and I mostly liked SEA, except for the heavy traffic and air pollution.
If you really believe your personal biometric data is none of your business, you have a simple solution, the same one I had. Make your way to the airport. Clearly, the Japanese government disagrees with you on that issue, and the majority of Japanese also either do so, or at least do not agree with you strongly enough to require their government not do this, after all.
At the end of the day, it's their country, not yours or mine, and they make the rules. If you don't like the rules they make, you should get out or you'll wind up hating the place. That's not a troll, just a piece of friendly (and correct) advice from someone who lived there a long time and would have been a lifer if I hadn't married another foreigner while I was there.
Say... get creative with a soldering iron over a bottle of vodka?
Laughing man logo comes to mind as a logical choice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughing_Man_(Ghost_in_the_Shell)
Some nice curses written in kanji would also be nice.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Actually this is JUST for people flying or boating in from any destination other than our southern border apparently...
If you just come through by walking/swimming across our southernmost border, you can get in with NO ID checks whatsoever. Not only that, you apparently cannot be deported if you are later discovered to be in the states illegally. Hell, in some states, we'll even issues you a drivers license, take your kids into our schools, and pay for all your healthcare needs via our hospital's emergency rooms.
So, if you want to come to the US and avoid all this nastiness...just fly first to Mexico, and come across that border as described above. I also hear it is about as easy to just walk across our northern border with Canada too.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
When I last left Japan, I got into a conversation with one of the girls at the airport check-in counter about my work at an American physics lab. She seemed interested and wasn't entirely clueless, which made me very happy.
As for politeness, yes, it is my experience as well that nearly everybody in a position to deal with people is very courteous in Japan. There was only one instance to the contrary that stands out in my mind, and that was when I went to get my gaijin card. The man behind the counter was exceedingly rude; I addressed him in Japanese and he continued to pretend I didn't understand him, although I answered his questions entirely in his language. The type of speech he used was also rather impolite, compared to the excessive use of keigo everywhere else.
I had a (Western) friend who had some pretty bad trouble the first time he opened a bank account. His Japanese was good, but the teller refused to look at him and instead directed all inquiries to his girlfriend, who just stood next to him while he answered.
Legalize it.
[...] nightmare.
You misspelled "theater"*.
Rich
*So did I. I'm English. Been here too long.
So now I won't be traveling to the states or Japan. I wonder how much moves like this affect tourism.
I found people speaking English. I tried with my very meager Japanese first but frequently was able to fall back on the unofficial world language for tourism. It is no where near what it is in Europe however, so if you are thinking it will be just because it too is a 1st world country, wrong, it is considerably worse.
:)
My limited (12 days) experience with the Japanese was exceptionally positive
--Joey
Dammit all to hell... I've been wanting to go to Japan for about 4 years and have been slowly saving up money for a trip there. Now Japan is (until I can get trustworthy evidence that they've stopped this) on my list of "DO NOT TRAVEL" countries along with such places as China and Singapore. Dammit... The Anime Characters I love wouldn't put up with this!!!!
Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
...of any population. Libertarians craz... erm, committed enough to get worked up about putting their finger on a scanner and smiling *for the webcam over the possibility that the info will be used to incriminate them for some made-up-by government crime in the future is a smaller share still (although a large portion dwells on Slashdot). Hence, the impact of travel to Japan will be negligible.
As for the actual issue, any country has a right to know who they let in - if they want to snap a picture when I visit, I will let them. If they want me to verify my indentity by biometric means, I have no problem with that. The risk that the whole procedure will somehow harm me is likely to be far smaller than that of getting struck by lightning while doing backflips in a greased-up bathtub.
*I speak from experience.
Nonsense.
No child's fingerprints taken in the US as part of an identification process were ever put into any "system". The 10-card (or whatever) was given back to the parents. I do not know of any school that wanted to keep it either - too much file space.
Paranoid is clearly OK on Slashdot, stupid isn't.
Just thought I should mention that Colombia is also now fingerprinting foreigners applying for tourist visa renewals. They use some kind of sophisticated machine. So at least I didn't have to suffer from the indignity of black/blue ink on my fingers. It was annoying that they fingerprinted every finger on my hand. As if one weren't enough. Grrr. Still better than the US and now Japan though since you do not need to submit fingerprints just to enter the country.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
The reason they are doing this is because under the guise of terrorism they are attempting to reduce the number of crimes committed by foreigners, including overstaying visas. The whole idea of terrorism has nothing to do with why they passed this policy.
I disagree with this assertion. They are attempting to increase the total number of crimes committed by foreigners, or, to be more exact, the number of convictions for crimes already committed, so that the number of "crimes" committed by non-Japanese will rise.
Statistics (from jref.org; it's linked elsewhere in the comments) show that Americans, Brits, and other Westerners commit something like one-twentieth to one-tenth the crime of the Japanese. The fact that work visas are only given to college graduates -- adults with a lot to lose -- is one reason why criminals from our countries don't bother coming to Japan to begin with.
Unfortunate for the Japanese government, who has for the past decade or more been popularizing the fiction that foreign crime is rampant and always on the increase.
Until very recently, overstaying a visa for a short period of time was (provided that no criminal acts were committed in that period) a minor offense on par with letting your driver's license expire or speeding on the highway. It was an administrative problem. Now, such overstays are considered "crimes" in the statistics, despite the damage to society not being anything near murder, arson, assault, rape, and the rest of the crimes in this category. The change was made because the LDP loves to scapegoat foreigners in their always-effective tactic of using fear of The Other to gain votes. They need to keep pumping those numbers up, and getting their prints in a database and checking on them repeatedly is a good way to do that.
Test this theory yourself. If you're American or British, ask a Japanese person near you what they think the crime rate is in Japan by people of your nationality, as a percentage of the Japanese rate. They will wildly overestimate the actual figure of 0.05-0.1.
So, if the 1000 member Al Qaeda decides they don't follow Geneva Conventions, the 300 million Americans shouldn't either? Why should cops follow the law when criminals don't? That premise is bad.
America never sunk to that level. When the British kidnapped and forced American sailors into the British navy, America didn't do the same.
When Iranians captured American embassy workers, America didn't do the same.
Look at the Russian-Afghan war. The Russians were pretty brutal to captured Afghanis, using them for knife practice. The Afghanis reciprocated. Eventually Americans and CIA officers managed to get both sides to stop the cruel practice by having one side stop and the other follow.
How 'affiliated' do you think they were? Did they show us an Al Qaeda membership card or just say they were fans? Did they have Bin Laden's number?
Back to the point. Al Qaeda is very unpopular in Pakistan. However, if America starts torturing and makes it official policy, you will see more people sign up, as the US actions would prove what Al Qaeda was saying all along. The US is incredibly poor at the hearts and minds thing, if the next president keeps this rate up, they'll think it's all America and not just Bush that's the cause.
No, they're fingerprinted and photographed when they get their green card instead... No need to repeat the process. :-)
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
Plus, they're stored on the card too.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
We face the same when trying to get a visa or when we enter the USA, read on...
I'm Mexican and I applied for a visa to travel to USA on 2005. I was told by the officer, that I qualified for the visa and they would actually give it to me, but there were some other two guys with my name, weight and height that had commited some crimes in the USA, so they had to make sure it wasn't me (Imagine my surprise, it was completly unexpected to me). They took my fingerprints (anyway they take your fingerprints when you request the visa, but they asked me to take them for a second time and in another office in the USA Embassy) and sent it to the FBI, which would confirm the result (negative, of course) and they sent the visa.
But there's some interesting points about this:
1. You have to pay an extra fee to get your fingerprints sent to the FBI.
2. They make you feel like you're a criminal by sending your information to the FBI to "confirm" you're not a bad guy.
3. My lastname isn't very common in Mexico (actually it's very rare), so it's really strange to find someone with the same fullname, weight and height TWICE, and they both criminals.
4. Many people face the same process.
When you get into the USA they also take you fingerprints (I don't know what they do with them, anyway).
I've been in Europe and it isn't the case, actually, Mexican citizens do not need a visa as we need it for the USA. We're free to enter and leave EU member countries and there isn't any fingerprint scanning.
I'll be there in three weeks, I hope things haven't changed.
Bottom line: It's difficult for a Mexican to get a visa to the USA and we receive a different treatment there, than we receive in other countries, like those in Europe.
Sad but true.
Miguel
I agree with you, but I think that rather than trying to increase crime numbers, they are more about showing to the media how they are trying to do something about 'crime'. However one of the biggest barriers for creating the impression of increasing crime numbers will be the numbers themselves.http://www.npa.go.jp/english/seisaku5/20071019.pdf
The crime statistics for 2006 were released and there was an across the board drop in the number of crimes committed by foreigners. I'm kind of curious to see how the media can spin this even more, but at least they can't use phrases like "year on year increases".
I do realize that this won't really change the impression that normal Japanese people have, but it has been my experience that most people here tend to overreact in general. Case in point, the people I work with are all afraid of being murdered by anyone that might be causing problems on the train, in the grocery store, etc. They feel that if they try to stop the trouble or ask politely to have someone stop something that it will mean their death.
Yeah, and again, that doesn't bother me. It wouldn't bother me if they wanted my fingerprints on file. It's that I have to be fingerprinted every time I come into the country as though I were a "foreigner," when I have always been treated as a resident because, you know, I am.
Cat has bad influencement on ma grammar... make that Brasilium... Bresilalium... or that other portuguese they speak down there...
My thoughts exactly. Or, more specifically, one-fingered gloves. This would be more visible as a protest.
Please help publicise swpat.org - the software patents wiki
The US requires fingerprinting as part of the passport process, but passports are not mandatory within the country.
How would you control borders?
I'm not frightened of being fingerprinted because I do not fear my government.
I want exclusivity, border control, and tracking of foreigners. I want the sort that do not want to be tracked to stay out of my country, so laws or actions that deter them from visiting suit me fine. I have no problem with other governments tracking me when I visit their countries. No like the rules, stay at home.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
I've always gone in via Newark. Maybe that's the difference.
---
We spoke for about a half an hour. I don't recall a thing we said. - Colorblind James Experience
The free is just a matter of reciprocity. Brazil does not have its own sets of rules towards foreigners, it only returns the treatment it gets.
If you had clearences without even a fingerprinting to prove who you are and that you're not a criminal, then that's not particularly good security. I'm sure passports are harder to fake than drivers licenses, but I doubt it would stop anyone at all serious about espionage. A simple fingerprinting would go a long way in that case.
I don't know if this has happened in Japan yet:
http://www.seoulselection.com/streetwise_read.html?cid=4036&area=home
Past crimes cause teacher to be deported
November 08, 2007
"For the first time in Korea, an English teacher has been deported for a crime he committed before coming here, the Justice Ministry announced yesterday.
An American whose name was not released was deported, the Justice Ministry said, after a previous conviction in Los Angeles of possessing and distributing child pornography was uncovered."
and, from the same article:
"Currently, 17,020 native English speakers are working as language teachers in Korea on E-2 visas, according to data from the ministry.
Through August of this year, 100 teachers were caught on visa violations or felonies committed in Korea. Eighteen were deported, but 82 were allowed to remain here."
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
>This is xenophobia pure and simple and will kill whatever tourist industry Japan was trying to get with their "Yokoso Japan!" campaign.
How about getting of of these fingerprint-friendly "Yokoso Japan!" t-shirts?
In order to let the Government of Japan and the airport drones know how you feel about their latest "effort".
Personally I really could not give a shit...Orson Wells and Big Brother is here including facial recognition and CCTV. The UK is the most spied on Nation on Earth. My fingerprints were taken when I went to the USA last year and a retina scan. The USA forced Japan into doing this, besides the Japanese are quite amiable toward this as they are high profile with camera's around their necks. It is just more "big brother", Did you know terrorism would disappear if people were more friendly, Hollywood sponsors terrorist films to keep it in front of your mind.... not only that, The USA is just a bully. Nice justification's from America "Friendly Fire" is bollocks. The USA have done this because of North Korea and probably Bush's involvement with the CIA like his DAD and CIA dirty tricks. I would like to say I have some very nice friends in the USA. Therefore not making USA citizen's "outcasts" I apologise in advance. Please keep the truth! Kind Regards, Roo
At least you didn't spend 8 hours getting through customs followed by being tasered to death!
Most people would think you would be safe traveling to Canada. Just make sure you speak english I guess, as the victim did not provoke the police at all. Of course, as per usual the RCMP are investigating themselves (though there is one outside party). As it is of international interest, I wish officials from another country would be permitted to investigate as well.
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
and read again "will be made available to both domestic police and foreign governments."
/pic attached/ in relation with terrorism accident - please verify it against your database and notify us if reply is positive"
afaik, in typical law enforcement language this ALSO stands for "we are special police of govt country X and recently we have got this fingerprints
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I wonder how many people are going to try this after reading your post?!?!
Libertas in infinitum
More likely they're just as paranoid about foreigners as we are.
It will once again be free if we get Ron Paul elected!
Libertas in infinitum