New Wheel of Time Author Chosen

kdean06 writes "Brandon Sanderson has been chosen by Tor Books to finish the best-selling Wheel of Time fantasy series by the late Robert Jordan. Harriet, Jordan's widow, chose him after reading his Mistborn series. An interview is also available via Dragonmount.com."

Comments

Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Viol8]

Or will he actually manage to do something Jordan never managed - an ending? I gave up at volume 7 , I just couldn't take any more tedious filler prose that you could tell the author was using to pad just so he could produce as many volumes (and make as much $$$$) as possible. Even Tolstoy eventually knew when it was time to wrap it up and no one could accuse him of having had writers block.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[thornomad]

I don't think I even made it through the fifth book -- and I loved them at the beginning. But there is something about a series of books that make them intriguing ... namely: that there will be an ending. When the chance of actually having one disappeared I stopped reading.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a reader of Sanderson's other novels, I can say that endings are his specialty. His fans refer to the endings of his books as the "Brandon Avalanche" because once he starts to build it up, it just snowballs to reach a level of excitement that leaves you blown away.

I can't think of a better author to finish this series.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Shrubbman]

Jordan had finished the outline for the 12th, and reportedly final, book before he passed away. I stopped reading at around book 9 myself, but might get around to goingthrough those last few books if this new author does indeed give us an end.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[daninspokane]

Ditto here. Great books, amazing writing... but after 5 it's like "dude come on.. really... I'd like some closure on this"

Excellent books regardless, I just don't have the attention span for them.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[martinag]

There are eleven books already of an expected twelve, so I'd say there's a fair chance it'll happen.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Feyr]

i never found WoT to be tedious, slow at some points but not tedious.

it's a shame that you find them so because the last two books are truly epic.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[MightyMartian]

I couldn't get past the first half of the first book. Jordan's writing was so amateurish, it reminded me more of a lot of the fanfiction out there. I found it dull and poorly written.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[A Jew]

I went through the whole series, and mostly they went fast. and I didn't skip anything. most books in the series I read at least 2 or 3 times. and the series does come to an end: book 12. in any case, book 11 is when despite all the action, the preparations for the last battle are completed.

I just really hope this author sticks exactly to what Robert Jordan had planned. it's bad enough I'll have to cope with a different style of writing, the annoying power plays, and the weird morals. I really don't want to also deal with a world view that is inconsistent with rest of the series. I don't want it adopted to a different interpretation. I just want Robert Jordan.

May he rest in peace.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Sandbags]

Jordan had no personal interest in monetary fortunes. His story was alive within him, and as all things that grow in nature, this story grew above and beyond his dreams and took its own course. George R R Martin is experiencing a similar pain with his series, as did Terry Goodkind. The stories and worlds simply become so vast, that in order to move one's characters to the end of the story, it takes more volumes than one expects.

After book 3 Jordan expected the series to be complete at 6 books. after book 5, he thought he was closer to the end than the beginning. He was on a good pace to do that until he experienced a major death in his family while writing book 8. That book got away from him, and in order to complete his works and tie off all of the ends of his story, we needed books 9 and 10 to put things back on track.

Jordan rarely used "filler prose" as you claim. His descriptions were allways vivid and captivating, and all of his writing for his more than 20 main characters was exceptional.

Maybe you're looking at it wrong. This is not a simple story about a few characters on a quest, AKA J R R Tolkein style. this is 3rd generation hard fantasy. This is a collection of stories about seperate individuals following seperate paths each intertwined in common fates inside of an expansive world. This is really no different than the Dragon Lance series, other than in this case, each individual story has the power to move others. If this is more than you can follow, (not to say too complex, but simply the sheer volume of information and time required to invest in it) or if the collection is simply longer than your attention span, then I can reccomend many other great authors to you, and I will caution you to avoid Tad Williams, Neil Stepheson, George Martin and many other emerging fantasy gods of writing who are also on paths to publishing stories that cross 7-10 1000 page novels.

I mean no disrespect, but maybe it's just not your style.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Culture20]

I read the first one, then found out how many more he had written within a short period of time and quickly deduced the rest must be pointless drivel. Your comment validates my decision to stop after #1.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[chromatic]

Jordan rarely used "filler prose" as you claim.

Female character sniffed. "Wooly-headed men," she thought.

Male character sighed. "If only other male character were here," he thought. "He understands women."

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[mgoheen]

Holy crap...you wrote my comment...except that I made it through nine (or maybe it was only six?) of these endless bastards. I kept buying the next one thinking, "Ok, something has actually GOT to happen THIS time." But no, NOTHING EVER ACTUALLY HAPPENS...EVER!

This series should be call "The Endless Waste of Time".

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Sandbags]

There was allways an end. If you read the books carefully enough, then you know what the end is. It was foreshadowed in the early pages of the first book, and reiterated in the 2nd volume several times. the fun is not in reading the ending, but in the twists, turns, and unexpected events that spin us towards the enevitable, that which is destined to repeat as the wheel turns and spins age anew.

Granted, having started reading the series with the release of the 4th book, the end has been a long time coming. 2-4 year between volumes is a loooonnnng time. I'm held in this same pattern by George Martin (Song of Ice and Fire saga), Neil Stepheson (he just announced a second trilogy to his current works), Tad Williams (otherland took forever to be completed, and each volume of his current fantasy series is eagerly awaited), i even went through this with Isaac Asimof and his 13 book saga of the Foundation (not including 2 others he went back in and added later!).

I fill the gaps with Mercades Lackey, Robin Hobb, Bob Salvatore, and a dozen others not to mention all these other fantasies I end up reading just to keep up with what's in the theatres. (notice i did not mention the potter books however).

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Gaki]

And the "epic" is precisely why I stopped reading at book 4. Up to that point, you had the very good story of a bunch of small-town kids caught up in something bigger than they were. It was gritty and it was real. When Rand defeats a swordmaster with a blue heron blade in book four, then takes out one of the lesser deities in the same book, I instantly thought ... gee, kinda tough to go UP from there, isn't it? He's only 20 or so. I'm a fan of low fantasy, so the minute it spiraled up into "killing Gods" territory, which is what I call it, I instantly lost interest.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Seumas]

I'm actually surprised there would be a demand for this. I mean, with Harry Potter, are kids really branching off to the Wheel of Time books again? I know they were popular with kids back when I was in grade school (did adults actually read them?) but, like the David Eddings books, it seems like they came and went with the 80s and 90s.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[accessdeniednsp]

Well the real problem was that around the ending of Book 4, Tor came to Jordan and asked him to extend the series and stretch it out. I am most certain this is documented somewhere and came directly from RJ himself.

Of course, RJ started out writing just one book, then during the process came up with more story and wanted a trilogy. If you read carefully, you can actually see how Book 3 really is a good ending to the saga, and it's evident how Book 4 does start on a new thread entirely. It's a very different series starting at Book 4 (similar to how Book 2 started).

But this is about when Tor came in and asked for more. So, he drew up some extended storyline of course for books 4-6 or so. Book 4 was stunning. just great!. Books 5-7 were *definitely* filler with mild forward-moving story. But then he got his act back together with Book 8 and THAT's when he did another 'reboot' of sorts and started putting story elements back together. The second half of Book 8, the whole of Book 9, and the interesting storytelling of Book 10 are all very tightly woven and they work very well.

Book 11 certainly was the house-cleaning book (heh, some "decisive action" taking place rather early made me smile) and sets the stage very smoothly for Book 12.

So yes, I agree it got slow and lazy in the middle. If we could have those books plus first half of Book 8 condensed and re-written to a 200 page novel, that'd be great :)

Anyway, I just wanted to toss that bit of insight up. I hope it helps 'cope' in some way with the whole thing. Once I found out about it, I felt better about it.

Seeya!

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[SatanicPuppy]

Read 2 and 3 and pretend like the ending to 3 is the ending, and you won't miss much.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[TheGeneration]

Jordan really is a terrible writer. I read the reviews for the books before I got them. I read the first three and thought "uhm, nothings happened since the first half of the first book! This is awful writing!"

I can't believe anybody gets past the third book to be honest. That book was the last nail in that coffin. The characters split up in the beginning of the book, have their individual adventures and then NOTHING HAPPENS, nothing changes, the characters do not grow, absolutely nothing. It was like the lamest disconnected mid season episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Alzheimers]

I hate to go off topic, but what is this new trilogy by Neal Stephenson you refer to? I can't seem to find any information about it at all.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[hansamurai]

I could almost say the same thing about Robert Jordan and his books, so I am pretty pleased with Sanderson being appointed if you can say that about him.

Maybe not everyone agrees with me, and I've only read the first six books of the series, but even if the story is relatively dull throughout the novel, the last 10% is usually pretty awesome. Jordan usually just has Rand sitting on his hands for 500 some odd pages and then suddenly turns him into a monster for the last 100. I made it through the sixth book because my coworker promised me it had an explosive ending, and it did (haha, explosive was an accidental pun there, seriously).

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Apparition-X]

Well, I am going to toss this out there even though it may be a little inflammatory: Jordan was stylistically awful. Beyond belief really. The writing devolved over the course of the series from adequate to extremely painful. Your claims:

- "rarely used filler prose". If you read books 5-9, you will find that increasingly, that is all they were. Phrases were repeated a painfully large number of times. Characters expressed the same emotions and reactions to various situations over and over and over again.

- "his writing for more than 20 main charcters was exceptional" Well, there was little if any character growth for the majority of characters since book 4. If anything, it is shockingly repetitive in that the character's changed in no significant way for so long. And female characters in particular tended to the caricaturish in their unidimensionality.

No matter what excuse you care to use, it is obvious that a much firmer editorial hand was required. The number of people that simply stopped reading (based on comments here, on Amazon, and other forums) is very large. It just went on. Not only were questions not answered, and plot details not resolved, but new, seemingly irrelevant questions were raised, and new plot threads started. You may want to defend the work as "3rd generation hard fantasy" but it reads a lot more like Edward Gibbon than anything that is remotely interesting or compelling as a work of fiction.

Finally, I would not that Jordan's work has nothing redeeming from a literary point of view either--there are no compelling themes explored in interesting or insightful ways; no compelling use of metaphor or allegory; no deep (or even shallow) discovery of human nature and growth through conflict; nothing tragic about the conflicts; nothing at all. So without plot and character, there is simply nothing at all of interest.

And for reference, I have worked through Martin's books without losing interest. And Erikson's (who has more happen in a chapter than WoT had in whole books) even though he is up to 7000+ pages. Glen Cooks. Gene Wolfe. Etc. But that doesn't mean that I am uncritical or read uncritically. Jordan lost the plot and jumped the shark a long time ago, and those problems are compounded by dreadful style, awful characterization, and the total absence of compelling plot developments. (I am also pretty critical of Goodkind for similar reasons--the prose is simply awful, as is the characterization.)

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Sandbags]

So you don't classify this a character development?

Sure, one may be tempted to state that such phrases were repeated regularly in the series, but c'mon, all this means is that each book could have been 30-50 pages shorter... also, it's a long series, authors must remind us of how their characters think from time to time or we begin to forget who they are and substitute our own thoughts for theirs. personally I appreciate this detail and I wish more authors used similar techniques.

We're not talking about parragraphs and pages of useless descriptions (though many were lenghty, its much of that poetic verse that makes the story worth reading, and I considder little of it useless or wasteful), and we're not talking about complete tangents from story that have no impacts on the characters or the story... besides, ether he used such prose or not would have made no impact on how many books he published. What it would have made an impact on is how many pages each book was published, saving the publisher money. In fact, considdering that, I counter that jordan was in fact not milking his publisher and the public for money, but in fact, he was milking them OF such money, as each hardcover, regardless of cost to produce, is sold for the same retail price...

Some authors do produce books in volume simply for money. Some of those authors are worth reading, others not so much. I gave up on Goodkind for this reason after his 4th book. Each additional story was not moving the characters forward, or expanding the world, it only prolonged the saga for profit. I'd argue that the original runelords series was quite good, but continuing that series with another (at least) trilogy is not worth my reading time (though if the second saga could stand on its own without first having to read the 4 books previous to it, it might be) the Dune Saga also has this weakness. If you truly love the world, you've got over 15 books of it to read now, but the original book alone stands on it's own. the first 3 sequals add to it, but reading beyond is unnecessary.

but of course, this is your opinion. I enjoy books with depth, complexity, and longevity. I avoid books and series that are simple or episodic. If it can be made into a 3 hour or less movie, it's not worth my time. Each book should take at least half of a full season of TV to conclude and a saga should take years of watching. LoTR produced 12 hours of feature movie, and from only a few hundred pages (about the total length of a single book from Jordan). Each potter book, some of which are 800+ pages) only translate into 2 hour movies. I read the first 5 books of the potter series in about 3 days time. Each book of Jordan's, Martin's, William's, or Stepheson's enthrawled me for more than a week. Anyuthing less can't hold my interest, is too predictable, or is simply episodic and I have no addiction to the series. Not everyone feels the same way, and i hold no ill will towards them. The only readers I wish stripped from the face of Terra are those who read romance novels...

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Sandbags]

It's a continuation of his Baroque cycle (forthcoming). The copy of the 3rd book I have lists the titles of the next 3 books in the saga. I do not know what the release data will e (sorry), just as I eagerly await work of Tad William's and George Martins next announcements (2 authors I desperately hope do not join Rober Jordan in leaving this existance with unfinished works... both are aging more rapidly than they are aproaching the end of their legacies.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[DragonWriter]

So you don't classify this a character development?

The first time it happens with a given set of characters, it may be character development.

The remaining dozen or so per volume, not so much.

also, it's a long series, authors must remind us of how their characters think from time to time or we begin to forget who they are and substitute our own thoughts for theirs.

Certainly true to an extent, which is one thing that makes writing a huge work in an expansive world without losing focus and drowning the reader in minutiae difficult.

But that the task the author has set for themselves is difficult doesn't excuse poor execution.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Penguin's Advocate]

"I couldn't get past the first half of the first book. Jordan's writing was so amateurish, it reminded me more of a lot of the fanfiction out there. I found it dull and poorly written."

Perhaps you meant that a lot of the fan fiction out there reminds you of Jordan's writing? That's probably because a lot of fan fiction writers got their inspiration from him.

I'll concede that the writing itself was not the greatest, but the story is excellent. I'm sorry that you "couldn't" get past the writing and enjoy the story.

It's really sad that even when reading a fantasy series, people are so obsessed with getting to the point that they can't tolerate a single word not expressly intended for plot advancement. There's a reason old people are always telling young people to slow down.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[deadweight]

What about the "giant world-wide S&M sorority thing" going on. All the women were always threatening to spank, hit, whack, or otherwise "discipline" each other pretty much non-stop. BTW, when I first read the first book of the series I stuck it in my flight bag for a long trip and avgas back then was about $1.50/gallon. THAT was a long time ago!

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[chromatic]

So you don't classify this a character development?

The first time each separate character thought that, perhaps. When I noticed that separate characters did and thought the same things, I appreciated the irony. When it happened multiple times per book in multiple books, I decided that it was as much characterization as the catchphrases of Steve Urkel, and that I had better things to do with my time than to read another several hundred pages while wondering When are they going to get to the fireworks factory? .

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Erwos]

I'm 99% positive that was an in-joke in the series, given that each of the three male "leads" uses that particular expression multiple times.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[ZombieWomble]

Despite the fact that I'm still doggedly sticking it out with the books (I need closure after all these years, dammit), I really have to agree that the power escalation has gotten out of hand. Or, rather, the power de-escalation of the foes.

In the early books, even a few Trollocs or single Myrrdraal was an issue. By the middle books, they were being beaten up by farmwives with kitchen implements. By the late books, hundreds of them aren't really a big deal. A shame really, as when you lose respect for the foes, the series loses a lot of depth.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[StarvingSE]

You missed out then. My personal favorite has been book 2, which had a nice "adventure" quality to it. I must admit, I have only read until book 5 so I can't compare with the later volumes. I really liked the character of Hurin in book 2, and wish they would have kept him around (again, not sure if he comes back into the story after book 5).

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[bostonkarl]

No kidding. Loved it at first. But it got repetative. So and so tugs on her braid. Yet again. Yawn.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[cmpalmer]

If Sanderson is that good at wrapping things up, maybe George R.R. Martin can pass along his notes for A Song of Ice and Fire and then just move on to something else...

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[justin12345]

I've read them all several times now, but the first WoT book I ever read was Book 2. Had I started from Book 1 I doubt I would have ever gotten into the series.

I feel that in Book 1 he hadn't really found the series' "voice" yet, that the story and prose are amateurish as you say. Books 2-5 are both much better written and much more interesting as stories. You get the sense sometimes while reading them that he wishes he could undo some of the things that happened in Book 1, or that he wishes he made the 'rules' slightly differently in Book 1. Books 2-3 carry on the same themes as Book 1 did, but in a richer way.

In Books 6-9 the tone changes. The stories start becoming very complex, very mature. Many people don't like 6-9 as the plot lines tend to deal more with politics and character motivations, rather then personal growth and exploring exotic lands (the primary motifs of 1-5). The villains in particular become less cartoon-y. Ishamael, the howling, ranting, "join the darkside!" villain of 1-3, is replaced by Moridin a quiet, sinister figure whom manipulates all the characters from the background, and who's motives are completely unknowable. Lanfear of the early books, who's only function is to tempt the protagonists with sex and glory or to fly into jealous rages, is swept aside in favor of Mogedian, a much more three-dimensional villain. Jordan also develops characters such as Elida, Verin and Asmodean, characters who are acting in the moral grey areas, neither completely good or evil.

In Books 10-11 the series' tone changed one last time. Maybe responding to fans complaints, Jordan begins wrapping up plot lines rather then creating new ones. The storys become more personal: a love story, a war of succession, and a personal vendetta of revenge. There are more battles, and the hero Rand loses much of his near-invincibility he possessed in the previous books. There is a sense of impending catastrophe, lacking in previous volumes.

The series isn't perfect, but judging the series by the first half of first book is misleading.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[MightyMartian]

It's really sad that even when reading a fantasy series, people are so obsessed with getting to the point that they can't tolerate a single word not expressly intended for plot advancement. There's a reason old people are always telling young people to slow down.

You won't find too many bigger Tolkien fans than myself (I've even read every book in the History of Middle Earth series, CJRT's editorial notes included, multiple times), so don't give me that bunk.

Jordan was a shitty writer. His prose was turgid and unimaginative. There was no flare. It was like reading a diary of events. I shouldn't single him out, I find most fantasy writing to suffer the same flaws. There are lots of Tolkien-wannabes like Jordan who can do little more than regurgitate their betters' characters and plot devices (which isn't so bad, if they could do it well).

I prefer your average swords & sorcery book to Jordan. At least the S&S authors don't take themselves too seriously, and thus write shorter, more entertaining books.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[dorkstick]

I couldn't even get through the first book. so tedious. the only question is whether RJs stuff is more bombastic than unreadable.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Goblez]

Except with his love of numerology, I'm sure Book 13 was planned to be the grand finale. Then again, I had suspicions early on that regardless of what he wanted to cover, the series would go to one of the numbers he loves so much (3, 7, 12, 13). I own them all in Hardback, started reading them back in high school (out of college w/ a real job now), and I'd love to see an ending. I'm sure he's laid out the core of what happens (in notes or rough drafts), hell most of it is spelled out in foreshadowing and prophecy. Let's just see a conclusion so I know whether or to sell the Hardback copies or keep them!

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[farrellj]

The Industry Insiders (SMOFS/members of Condom, etc) were astounded that Jordon got a 12 book deal way back when, so I would guess that the 12th book *should* end the series! And please, let a series end! I was shocked to find there is *ANOTHER* Thomas Covenant book out!!!! Is Donaldson trying to turn his readers into the books main character?

ttyl

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Senobyzal]

I'd agree with you, up through book six. The endings of books seven and eight were definitely more lackluster, and book nine was on track for an equal "meh" but then hit with a devastating, intense ending that was more on par with his earlier stuff. Unfortunately, book 10 was in many ways his most disappointing.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Aaron_Pike]

I know one is not supposed to speak ill of the dead, but Mr. Jordan always seemed like the kind of person who reads Tolkien and thinks, "Not bad, but it moves too fast and doesn't have enough description."

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[clem]

It's really sad that even when reading a fantasy series, people are so obsessed with getting to the point that they can't tolerate a single word not expressly intended for plot advancement.

Even when reading a fantasy series? Perhaps this is why genre fiction has such a poor reputation. Its readership doesn't just tolerate substandard prose, it expects it and defends it as such. What would happen if these same readers were to raise their expectations and demand better books? The countless authors out there who go digging up Tolkien's corpse for one more turn around the block might have to come up with something compelling and original.

And I don't think the original poster your responded to was complaining that Jordan's prose didn't advance the plot. Rather that it didn't advance anything in the book. I made it through The Dragon Reborn before giving up on the series as so many pages went on like some bland tourist's travelogue. I didn't really care for the characters and I'd gotten to the point where I'd have to refer back to previous sections of the story to figure out why everyone was roving around the country in the first place.

More text != better text.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[nomadic]

I gave up at volume 7 , I just couldn't take any more tedious filler prose that you could tell the author was using to pad just so he could produce as many volumes

I gave up on I think 5 or 6. It wasn't really THAT bad, I just liked it better the first time, when it was called Dune.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[ericrost]

"I enjoy books with depth, complexity, and longevity. I avoid books and series that are simple or episodic. If it can be made into a 3 hour or less movie, it's not worth my time. Each book should take at least half of a full season of TV to conclude and a saga should take years of watching. LoTR produced 12 hours of feature movie, and from only a few hundred pages (about the total length of a single book from Jordan). Each potter book, some of which are 800+ pages) only translate into 2 hour movies. I read the first 5 books of the potter series in about 3 days time. Each book of Jordan's, Martin's, William's, or Stepheson's enthrawled me for more than a week. Anyuthing less can't hold my interest, is too predictable, or is simply episodic and I have no addiction to the series. Not everyone feels the same way, and i hold no ill will towards them. The only readers I wish stripped from the face of Terra are those who read romance novels..."

Then why are you reading Jordan? I read the first 4 of the series and when I can read the first page, tell you what's going to happen on the last page, and the rest is just riding horses bitching about when they're going to get there, its not "enthralling". Let me clear it up for you, its a wheel, he breaks time again, and it starts all over. They bitch about it until it happens, then it happens exactly how it was described in the prologue of book one.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Randle_Revar]

What are you talking about? There are two beings that could be called deities in the books - The Creator and The Dark One. Rand definitely did not kill either one of them in any of the books.

I don't think Rand even killed any of the Forsaken in The Shadow Rising (although he captured Asmodean), and I don't think there where any blademasters in that book either. The closest thing I can think of is in book 2, The Great Hunt, when Rand defeats a blademaster in Falme and then defeats Ishamael, who is going by the name Ba'alzamon (and at that time he was thought to be The Dark One). But even Ishy hardly deserves to be called a "minor deity".

Anyway, why would you be surprised by Rand defeating major enemies? By the end of The Great Hunt (and even before) it is clear that he is a "foretold hero", and The Dragon Reborn. Heck, at the end of the first book, he kills a (minor) Forsaken and singlehandedly changes the outcome of a battle, so it is clear he is an extremely powerful character.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[berashith]

There were paragraphs and pages of worthless description though. I dont know how many times there were hints dropped over which demi-demon was controlling which human, or who was on what side, based on a lace cuff or collar. The time was spent by the author trying to out-smart his readers, instead of telling a story. When a book starts out before the end of the previous book (and stays there for a long time) , but isnt actually a prequel there is a problem. At times Jordan did cross his rules while trying to outsmart the readers. The story of a farm boy and his friends rise to power, and the interacting magics could have been great. Too many miniscule details on houses and politics, and then the incorporation of his anger through the divorce just made the story boring.

Ever since I stopped this, I have refused to start a multi part story until it is complete. The dark tower is great when read straight through, and I am working through the Potter books now.

  I felt dragged through Jordan's money making scheme. Having an editor that would stand up and enforce corrections and limitations instead of allowing obvious fluff would have helped enormously... maybe a story would have appeared at some point.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Huntr]

I agree. Sadly, I think those criticisms could be applied to a lot of popular fantasy: Jordan, Salvatore, Weis/Hickman/Dragonlance series, Goodkin. I like fantasy fiction settings, but I can't tolerate (most of) the writing.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[mycroft822]

Hahaha, that would be so wonderful!

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[R2.0]

"No matter what excuse you care to use, it is obvious that a much firmer editorial hand was required."

I've never read Jordan, but if his books are anything like Heinlein's later works, the "firmer editorial hand" comment is spot on. Heinlein reached the point in his career where not only would no one edit his work, no one COULD edit his work - he was the Grand Master, after all.

On the other hand, why bother editing - the book is going to sell a shipload just based on the name, whetehr it be a tigh 500 pages or a meandering 1200.

Now, if someone could only get Tarantino to get his characters to just SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! (Sorry, just saw "Grindhouse" and "Sin City")

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Randle_Revar]

I have heard people disparage book 10 before, and I can never understand why. I feel that 8 is the worst closely followed by 7. I though 9 was a definite improvement and that 10 and 11 where both on par with 1-4

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[AuMatar]

Covenant is at least divided into discrete series- each one is a trilogy, and has a definite ending. Heck, each ending trilogy could be the series end, they tie up all the loose ends more or less. I expect the third one to end the same way. And by the way, the last book (8) was extremely good.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Randle_Revar]

Three is a great book and so is four. Seven and Eight are the only really bad ones. Now in those two, that is where NOTHING HAPPENS.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[King Gabey]

I'm 99% sure that joke got old around book 3 :)

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Stripe7]

I have read 3 of Sanderson's novels and enjoyed them tremendously. His books may not have the grand scope of Jordan's but his characters are more vivid. I think he will more than do justice to the WOT series.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

absolutely spot on.

None of my 'literary' friends from that era could stick to reading Jordan past the age of 18. We ALL just got sick of him. Once we got into real literature, we realized what a bunch of pap nearly 90% of fantasy authors out there wrote. If that seems stuck up to some of you out there... well... think... how long can you still enjoy the Hardy Boys and other types of series past the age of 10? Sorry, its the same old, same old.

I'm glad you mentioned Gene Wolfe. Excellent work.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

Please, do go on listing these "horrible" authors. I was just thinking I should find some new favorites.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[immcintosh]

That is untrue and unfair. Occasionally male character blushes in befuddlement.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Randle_Revar]

A very good summation, although I think you are too kind to books 7 and 8. I actually really liked book one, although I agree that it is in a totally different style - it feels more Tolkienish and at the same time more juvenile (aimed at younger readers, not immature).

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[DerekLyons]

Jordan had no personal interest in monetary fortunes. His story was alive within him, and as all things that grow in nature, this story grew above and beyond his dreams and took its own course. George R R Martin is experiencing a similar pain with his series, as did Terry Goodkind. The stories and worlds simply become so vast, that in order to move one's characters to the end of the story, it takes more volumes than one expects.

Or to put it simply - the authors you list lack the skills or the discipline to edit what they write. (And the audience is uncritical enough to be unable to tell the difference.)
 
If ever you wonder why Hollywood turns outs repetitive unispired crap, and endless sequels of the same, one need look no further than the shelf of endless series of books to understand why.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Chainsaw76]

Dark Tower/Gunslinger fans wished for an ending.. and look where that got us?

(I wish I had never picked up any book after the third..)

-Jason

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[smittyoneeach]

The stories start becoming very complex, very mature.

The stories tended to have dangle threads, like the golem in the book with the bowl. Pretty ugly killing machine, but what happened to it? Did it not use Energizers?
Then there was the aside with the dude and the lab trying to re-invent steam power...

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[immcintosh]

Well, I am going to toss this out there even though it may be a little inflammatory: Jordan was stylistically awful.

I've always thought the same thing about Asimov. Actually, I'd say I was able to keep reading the Foundation series for much the same reasons as the WoT series: underneath all the horrendously bland and repetitive prose there's a fascinating plot afoot. Then again, a single WoT book could swallow the entire Foundation series whole and still have room for dessert.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazing!

Now those of us who gave up on this pap after ONLY reading 'half' of the series don't know what we're talking about.

LOL!

If I want endless repetition in a generic fantasy environment, I'll just play WoW on an RP server for 10 years straight.

I've got a feeling the most advanced reading you've done outside of WoT is a book or Perl scripting and whatnot. Am I right? "Very complex, very mature" What does that even mean?

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Randle_Revar]

I fail to see any similarities between Dune and WoT, other than both of them being in the sci-fi/fantasy super-genre and both being good. Please explain.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Randle_Revar]

I have some issues with Jordan's style, but I will agree that Tolkien moves too fast and needs more description.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tolkin was admitedly the first fantesy writer of note, but imo even the detail of his world pales in comparison to the wheel of time. Ya tolkin had the similarian and other writings that never were actually in the main story that gave his world more depth, but jordan uses all that history in the books. Its just a different style. You can read tolkin and never had to get into the details of the world in which it is written, but when reading jorden it is used as key parts of the story. Both styles have their place and i quite like both. As for the prose in book one being low quality, maybe so. But look at how far it has taken him. For being just another fan-fiction writer he has come along way. His crappy style made him more money then the majority of slashdotters will ever see.

I am a huge fan of jorden, even though people complain about how it is slow sometimes and how book number x is crap, there isnt one book of the series that i dont enjoy rereading. And for all the complaining, most people keep reading.

For goodness sakes, its a story. I dont care how long it takes to get there. You say nothing happened to progress to the final finish but i think that it did. The chars change alot from the experiences in each book. Reading a book should be about enjoying the story, not just finding out the ending.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[ginbot462]

Throw "petulant" in there somewhere and you're set. :me shift spear

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Better yet, he could work with Stephenson to rewrite, oh, I dunno, any book the guy's ever written.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Dragon of the Pants]

Are you serious? "Where it got us" was to a series which is better than anything else I have ever read. While book 4 remains my second favorite, (After 7) in general the series got better and better as time wore on. And I personally believe that the ending King wrote was the best possible ending to the series. Just because it wasn't what you expected doesn't make it bad.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[MightyMartian]

The Silmarillion was the original intention of Tolkien, the Lord of the Rings largely being a distraction pretty much forced on to him by his publishers. Tolkien wrote and rewrote his mythos several times over nearly seventy years, invented languages, detailed chronologies, and, though he failed, even invisioned enlarging the Silmarillion to much greater detail. I don't think I could imagine comparing what Jordan achieved to what Tolkien almost did (but never quite).

As to how much Jordan made, he was a pop culture producer, much like Britney Spears or the Spice Girls. Sure the Spice Girls might go head to head sales-wise against the Beatles, I'd hesitate to say that she was anything near the Beatles' equal.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

ya it might be writen a few times, but come on. After reading it a while then the brain just takes it in and reads it without even seeing it. Total time to input and analyze that sentace is about .01 seconds while the information about the chars opinions and personality is important.

Of course thats just me. Its part of speed reading tactics that read and fully understand something without actually looking at it. If you read very slow then it can be a problem. But the trick with reading WoT is knowing when to read a page a minute and when to read a paragraph a minute.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[MightyMartian]

I give a lot of credit to anyone daring to go into the fantasy genre. It's few giants, guys like Tolkien, Dunsany and Moorcock, managed to exhaust a lot of avenues. Not that they were entirely original, but the secret isn't in originality of the story, but in the originality of the telling. Lord of the Rings is by no means a perfect work, and there are places where it's a snooze, but all in all, it's a pretty amazing work by a skilled writer interested in telling a story, and not just in telling (that, from my brief attempts to read Jordan, is the difference between the two).

I like Moorcock as well, though his later stuff is pretty bad compared to the early Elric material. Still, Moorcock was interested in vignettes more than big overwrought novels. I wish more fantasy authors would get rid of the trilogy and 20 volume series nonsense (that, to my mind, is how Tolkien and CS Lewis managed to destroy fantasy). Create a world. Write in that world. Heck, use the same characters, but don't make everything some big long ten million word long narrative.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[A Jew]

I read on the website (I think it was his blog) that he wanted to make it 13 but didn't have the energy to make it 2 books so he felt he had to make it all in 1 book even if it came out huge.

I just want to know 2 things:
will the good guys learn not to fight each other over domination?

who and what is the dark lord? I think he's no different than mordeth, but being a user of the one power, amongst the powers his evil gave him was the true source. support for this is machin shin, which is somewhat reminiscent of mashdar. also, mordeth is immortal, and so is the dark lord. all objects in shadar lugoth are tainted, and the dark one has tainted saidin. both taints ultimately drive you insane and kill you. the dark one is the only one who can use the true power without consequence, and mordeth is the only one who can use a shadar lugoth object without consequence. this is the real question the boggles my curiosity.

that new author says he'll stick to everything Robert Jordan did and planned, but won't try to imitate his style.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[ravenshrike]

Oh please, he takes out an entire fucking chapter to discuss fields. FIELDS. Since one can assume his major clientele are not amateur agronomists, this is obviously filler, and extremely poor filler at that. This is, of course, the most abusive example in the first 3 books(as far as I actually got), but there is plenty more.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[espressojim]

You mean the 1,000 repetition at the end of book 3? I almost pulled my braid I was so frustrated.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[justin12345]

No, I'm not saying that people who read half the series don't know what they are talking about. I'm saying that the first half of the first book in this twelve book series (including prequel) is not indicative of the rest of the series. Your reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired, AC. You might work on that before making derisive presumptions regarding my reading level.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Architect_sasyr]

Shadar Logoth and the Dark One's Taint are explicitly defined as two different styles of evil. I reference the wounds the Dragon Reborn received from Ba'alzamon and from the Dagger of SL. These are spoken of in a number of passages including, but not limited to, the statement that they pulse in a different time, and that one of the Ashaman set the wounds to fight each other.

I'm annoyed that he won't try to imitate his style, it's the Jordan style that has me reading these books as much as the story itself. Still, I'm awaiting the 12th.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[nomadic]

I fail to see any similarities between Dune and WoT, other than both of them being in the sci-fi/fantasy super-genre and both being good. Please explain.

Prophecy says man will be born who can use magic that up to that point has been female-only. The secrets of the magic are guarded by a female-only society that closely monitors potential male users of this magic. Society has both magical and political component. Boy is born who can use the magic, female-only society seeks to control him, he travels to a vast desert. People who live in the desert are impossibly good fighters because of their harsh environment. Boy instinctively knows the culture of these desert people. Becomes their leader, unites the different tribes.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Osty]

the Dune Saga also has this weakness. If you truly love the world, you've got over 15 books of it to read now, but the original book alone stands on it's own. the first 3 sequals add to it, but reading beyond is unnecessary.

I respectfully disagree. The first Dune book was simply history, setting up the story for the three sequels dealing with God Emperor Leto II. Sure, you could stop after the first book and have an interesting read, but you'd miss the actual story.

I do agree that there's not much reason to read the prequels unless you really care about the Dune universe, but stopping with just book 1 on the original series? What a waste of time.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[mick129]

Female character sniffed. "Wooly-headed men," she thought.

you need a "as she stood arms akimbo" in there.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[GaryPatterson]

LoTR produced 12 hours of feature movie, and from only a few hundred pages (about the total length of a single book from Jordan)

"a few hundred pages" ? Seriously?

The various reprints are typeset the same, and Amazon lists the 50th anniversary edition as 1184 pages. That includes about 80 pages of appendices and maps, but you're well over a thousand pages of text.

Where did you get "a few hundred pages" from? The Hobbit?

but of course, this is your opinion. I enjoy books with depth, complexity, and longevity. I avoid books and series that are simple or episodic.

You mean you enjoy books that you think have depth, complexity and longevity, and avoid books that you judge to be simple or episodic. I find some of the authors you list tedious, dull, uninspired and repetitive in the extreme. You find their books full of depth and complexity. That's all down to personal taste, or lack thereof. You mention personal opinion and then go on to ignore it in the very next sentence.

If it can be made into a 3 hour or less movie, it's not worth my time.

When you say that the book has to equate to at least a three hour movie, how do you judge that before you read the book? Heavy books make longer movies? Do you imagine a particular director's or screenwriter's version? After all, one director would make Lord of the Rings into a two hour movie, another made it into a nine hour movie. I reckon it's possible to successfully tell the entire story in two hours (the movies had a few hours of battle scenes that weren't described in the books for more than a few pages).

How can you look at a book in the store, read a few pages and say "Well, this'd be a 2 hour film so it's not for me!" or "Ooh, looks like a five hour movie's in here! Where's my wallet?" I ask because I find this behaviour astonishing.

(and it's "enthralled" not "enthrawled")

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh. That cracked me up. I forgot all about the braid-pulling thing.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then the leason should be: Don't make the prequel the superior work.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[chromatic]

Of course thats just me.... But the trick with reading WoT is knowing when to read a page a minute and when to read a paragraph a minute.

I'm a professional editor. I delete useless words, sentences, and paragraphs. With better editing, no one would have needed a trick to read WoT.

The series has some interesting ideas, the overall story is solid, and despite some clunky pastiche (did someone mention Dune?), there's some good stuff in there. Stronger editorial direction and polishing could have brought that out.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Kelson]

The way I look at it is that, structurally, the series is only 6 novels long. Books 1-5, and then one really long novel that starts with book 6 and will run through book 12.

Plus the prequel, which is vastly superior to any of books 6-9. I let myself get talked into reading it, and my reaction was basically, "Whoa, Wheel of Time is interesting again!"

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Hangly Man]

You're fantastic. I gave up after the seventh page. Jordan may not be the worst writer ever, but he will spend eternity close to that circle of hell.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Confessed Geek]

While I would not QUITE so harshly condemn the WoT as you have... The first 3 books were really quite amazing, and I was very prepared for a really great finale in book 4... which never happened. I had always previously presumed that Jordan had planned a 3,4 or 5 book series and then his publishers saw the prospect of buckets of money and convinced him to continue.

Now, I'm not so sure... I think his illness may have played into the picture in a couple different ways.

Note: this is COMPLETE SPECULATION

1. The Heinlein Effect - As Heinlein grew more and more ill, he began to pump out books at a crazy rate both as sort of a way to postpone his passing (notice EVERYBODY is alive in the last books), and

2. to provide for his wife. When contemplating ones mortality you want to take care of you loved ones - providing more books provides more financial stability for your loved ones.

One other comment you made stuck out- your comment that "it is obvious that a much firmer editorial hand was required."

In reading the announcement it appears that his wife was his primary editor. That might work in some cases, but I don't think this was one of them. I think it would be really hard for a person to be firmly critical of beloved spouse's artistic work - especially when they are ill as well.

I'm glad the series will reach a conclusion. I hope the final work redeems the wandering that occured from about book 5 on - perhaps it will really benefit from a new voice working on it... And maybe an abridged edition will eventually be put out that, like say Stranger in a Strange land, is better than the unabridged version.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Rarely have I read a comment with which I can agree so unequivocally. I read a few of Jordan's books, but at some point realized they simply suck, for all the reasons you've listed. I tried R. A. Salvatore and found him to be even worse - I couldn't get through one book. By comparison, George R. R. Martin is simply in a different league of writers. While his story lines can be sometimes frustrating, his characters have immeasurably more dimension and personality.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[ZOmegaZ]

Well, first, that's not true at all. When Trollocs attacked Emond's Field, it took the entire town, well prepared and assisted by two Aes Sedai, to fight them off. And even then they needed reinforcements. In the latest book, Rand and his companions of the time, each of them probably capable of destroying a small town without much effort, were attacked by an entire army of Trollocs and still had some trouble fighting them off. Second, Trollocs and Myrrdraal were never the main foes to begin with. They're footsoldiers, and fighting minions all the time doesn't make for good drama. The real enemies are vastly more powerful. Hell, the main villain is basically omnipotent except for his opposite number the Creator. It's true that the power differential has increased between the main characters and those particular enemies you mention. But new enemies are there to take their place, and those enemies are much more interesting.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Squalish]

Your statement appears to spring from a monotheist linguistic assumption - that God will be capitalized, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and ineffable. That conception of a god is not the only one, and "deity" often implies that you're not using that concept. "Minor deity" certainly does.

The Forsaken are immortal, exist primarily in songs and legends, have powers greater than any normal or even unusual man, have a sect devoted to their worship, and were granted their power by a henotheist 'supreme god' whose mere name is regarded as a literal curse. The Forsaken are granted more fear and respect than any human tyrant or wizard, and their powers are acknowledged to be a few notches above any single human (at the start of the series, anyway). They're roughly equivalent to angels/demons, but they touch the mortal realm directly, commanding vast hordes of minor demons in the eschatological architecture of the world - and were defeated by an act of sacrifice which sealed them in the tome of history forever. They exist in a pantheon of 13, their names derived at least partially from judeo-christian demonology, and are primarily concerned with fighting for power among themselves - the affairs of mere mortals are below them (until it becomes clear that the Last Battle is coming, and they are called into action).

There are many less 'godlike' deities in various religions than the Forsaken.

-------------------

The issue with the books is escalation. In the first few books, the scale kept getting bigger, Rand kept gaining power and gaining his messianic kinghood, bit by bit. Then, the geopolitical action slowed down, the mythology expanded into hopelessly obscure subjects like the Finns, and the action scaled down to entire chapters about a festival in Ebou Dar where little happened. Nation-sized armies move slowly, and this point was pounded home over the second half of the series, as every step was detailed of enough different factions that you had difficulty telling them apart. Uniting the world under the banner of the Dragon, bit by detailed bit, is simply not as entertaining as going from farmboy to messiah. So then, we started to delve into the detailed bits of the pantheon of Forsaken, and their problems and history...

Jordan has a need to expand every detail and create plotlines in every area, and this is charming to readers initially - because we know that the world is full of individuals with their own complicated intentions. But he doesn't finish many of them, we don't see those plotlines climax and conclude - for every one that does, five more sprout out of the wreckage. I'm a geek who hasn't played Ultima Online in 9 years, but I can still trace my way through the dungeons in my head... and even I would be lost in Jordan's epic without having all the previous books onhand, and being able to refer to Theoryland and encyclopedia wot. I can't even tell you, off the top of my head, how many alternate dimensions there are.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[fm6]

If you lasted through 7 volumes, you have more patience than I do. For me, just knowing that there's 10 volumes between the beginning and the end would scare me away. It's not that I don't like long stories (I actually enjoyed War and Peace). But no writer can tell 2+ megawords worth of narrative and maintain a coherent plot. So you just end up with hundreds of disconnected episodes. Boring, unless you just want to be hypnotized — which is what most SF and Fantasy readers seem to want these days. Me, I like an actual story.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

With the utmost respect for your geekhood I simply must ask... Are you serious?

There are so many problems with Jordan's universe that they defy any explanation. He sucked at what he did, but got enough backing to publish a series from the same people that back the Potter series etc...

There is no new exposition going on here.

You might as well go buy some new dragonlance novels.

If you put as much effort into reading religious texts as you did the Jordan series we might see some progress in the intellectual properties of the modern fundamentalist faith based movements.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[geekoid]

"Jordan had no personal interest in monetary fortunes."
HAHAHAHAHahahahaha...mod +1 funny as hell.

"Jordan rarely used "filler prose" as you claim. "
when to you call three pages of description of fog?

"His descriptions were always vivid and captivating, "
Yes, and also repetitive, boring and redundant.

"and all of his writing for his more than 20 main characters was exceptional."

No, it was also redundant drivel that wasn't clever or meaningful and often did nothing to advance the story. This is where we fund RJ cardinal sin. every piece of a book should advance the story. You could easily cut 300 pages from each book.

"this is 3rd generation hard fantasy."
oh please, that;s a comment made be people trying to create some pedestal to put the favorite author on. Please, the repetitive boringness of that style of prose went out 300 years ago.

"If this is more than you can follow, ("
ah, you've fallen into that trap. Clearly no agreeing with you shows something lacking in other. Please stop that. It's PAINFUL to follow because the writing is boring most of the time.
I am still convinced a good editor is all the series needed to make it one of my favorite. RJ rights great 400 page books...expaned out to 1000 or so pages.

"and I will caution you to avoid"
see, now you are being rude. I enjoy those authors. Verbosity isn't the issue; quality is.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please forgive me, but I had a girlfriend nick-named sandbags once upon a time.. are you her? It wouldn't matter but that I miss those rainy nights when she was needed.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Vexor]

They were still an issue, just a less severe one then the Forsaken who roam about much more frequently in the late volumns.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Planesdragon]

I'm a fan of low fantasy, so the minute it spiraled up into "killing Gods" territory, which is what I call it, I instantly lost interest. The story STARTS with a "god" blowing up a mountain, and you learn by the end of the very first book that Rand is the reincarnation of said "god."

If it took you to book 4 to learn that WoT is a high-magic fantasy, you weren't paying attention.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Randle_Revar]

OK, I guess I can see that. Seems like an over-abstraction to me, and I never would have seen it by myself, but I understand where you are coming from now.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Planesdragon]

If Sanderson is that good at wrapping things up, maybe George R.R. Martin can pass along his notes for A Song of Ice and Fire and then just move on to something else... You mistakenly think that Martin cares about telling a good story. He's a hack, with respect neither for his characters nor his readers.

I was engrossed right up until the "red wedding" -- when a minor character brutally murdered a central pillar, despite foreshadowing that he would live. It was badly written, badly plotted crap, and any author that would inflict something that mirage-breaking doesn't deserve his royalties.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[tmortn]

My thoughts exactly. As the series drug on there was way way WAAAAY to much time spent recovering ground, ostensibly so that first time readers picking up a novel out of order could get their bearings... toss on top of that the boiler plate discriptions (very old school actually, memory mnemonic technique from oral traditions) and exasperating stock male/female interactions and it just bogs down the story to much. What was a trademark quirk and forgivable early on became a frickin albatross of the first order by 8 and 9... and the most likely dictated editorial requirement to try and keep ALL readers clued in and not just the folks actually reading the series just rubbed salt in the wound. That infamous one day book would only be like 100 pages if you took out all the flashback fill in the history up to now crap.

I honestly think 6 - 9 could be edited into a single book, at most a book and a half of the more concentrated style of story telling in evidence through book 4 or 5. And I mean doing it without throwing anything away other than repetition of prior events and perhaps the most egregious braid pulling plunging silk neckline head thumping nonsense. Not all mind you, just where it hits the nails on chalk board phase.

I truly love the story. But starting with book 5 up until 11 you had to pretty much go from reading whole cloth to panning for the gold. I have to much invested now not to read whatever TOR puts out to complete it. I have been reading this series since it started when I was in 7th grade... just turned 30. Used to read all the previous books leading up to the new release just to be back in the groove.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[A Jew]

"Shadar Logoth and the Dark One's Taint are explicitly defined as two different styles of evil." - that's true. Shadar Logoth is all about suspicion. The Dark One is all about lust for power. at least I think so. in the books it basically says that evil creates power or something like that. don't remember exactly how they define it, maybe not power, but evil creates something. stands to reason that different types of evil would generate different results. yet to me, the similarities are striking.

the results of the two types of evil have slightly different characters.

notice that the taint of the Dark One makes you go insane in many different forms, but it doesn't make you paranoid. the taint of Shadar Logoth does.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Zodiac had a decent ending. You're right, though, most of the others fail.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[cicatrix1]

The pacing in 10 was all off. He takes so much time talking about a few minor events, which he normally does, but then at the end it's like he realized he only had 2 more books to finish the series off. He covers more ground and wraps up more ends in the last 100 pages than he does in the entirety of one of the slower books in the series.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

"a few hundred pages" ? Seriously?

Given the amount of material in LotR that Jackson didn't include, that sounds fair.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[pookemon]

You could always RTFA. Oh wait, this is slash dot. Here's an excerpt for you...

"The new novel, A MEMORY OF LIGHT, will be the twelfth and final book in the beloved fantasy series which has sold over 14 million copies in North America and over 30 million copies worldwide. The last four books in the series were all #1 New York Times bestsellers, and for over a decade fans have been eagerly awaiting the final novel that would bring the epic story to its conclusion."

IIRC that was the second paragraph.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

There was no flare.

Too true! Misspellings for stylistic effect would have livened Jordan's shtick up no end.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Highrollr]

I actually find the opposite. Knowing that anyone can die at any time draws me in, because it makes for a more credible universe. Sometimes big, important people die from choking at dinner, but it never seems to happen in stories. Knowing that it's possible heightens the tension because there are "real" risks for the characters.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[defile]

I must've started reading this series about 10 years ago, and books 1-5 were already out at the time (IIRC).

Recently, I tried picked up where I left off. Maybe book 8 or 9. I couldn't read it. I've changed too much as a person to relate to this series anymore.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Glorious!

You forgot also:
Female character angrily crosses her arms beneath her breasts.

Where else is she going to cross them? Off to the left? In front of her forehead?

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Vancore]

I was engrossed right up until the "red wedding" -- when a minor character brutally murdered a central pillar, despite foreshadowing that he would live. It was badly written, badly plotted crap, and any author that would inflict something that mirage-breaking doesn't deserve his royalties.

He was never 'foreshadowed' to live, more like foreshadowed to die both from milsindre's prophecy she saw in the fire (Those cast into the fire would DIE) and a early glimpse of the desicration of his corpse in the Warlock's temple from book 2. Course it would have been nice had he lived but that wasn't the case and your just being furious over one of your favorite characters dieing... just like 10% of the readership. Dispite his death making sense in terms of storytelling.

Frankly I'm surprised you made it past the first book if you knew something like that may happen again.

As for the wheel of time series something like that would never happen. I'm kinda wondering if robert was going to go along with the prophecy or not. Course it wouldn't be till the End of the story so unlike Martin he could have gotten away with it since its the last book anyway. No big reprecussions, and now that he's dead and the mantle's been passed on I rather much doubt people would be pissed if Rand did die.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[lymond01]

You mistakenly think that Martin cares about telling a good story. He's a hack, with respect neither for his characters nor his readers.

Having wandered through the first Wheel of Time book, I'd like to say this: At least Martin has characters. Each persona in his books is touchable -- their personalities slightly archetypical perhaps, but you feel you know them, be they black (the Mountain), white (Jon Snow), or grey (Jaime, the Hound, etc etc). While Jordan writes, likely purposefully, a more epic feeling type of fiction, I felt no connection and only the barest dissimilarities in his characters. They felt like the same people just saying different lines. A bit like the non-Hobbits in Lord of the Rings (the books): all fairly goody-two-shoes and generic. Of course, Tolkien told an epic tale to beat all epic tales. Jordan...at least from the first book...wasn't interesting.

And there's another post here that surprised me with how well it fit Jordan's style: 500 pages of mild adventure and mild plot-building, followed by 20 pages of "Wow, that was cool!" That was exactly how I felt about the first book. I started reading the second, but that quickly reminded me about the blah-ness of the first book, so I gave up.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[AuMatar]

Funny- I found the opposite. 99% of "literature" is rather pointless and boring. Give me a book of pap by a hack fantasy author over Kafka or Shakespeare or Dickens any day of the week. The fantasy will at least be entertaining.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[TempeTerra]

And female characters in particular tended to the caricaturish in their unidimensionality.

I agree, my usual gripe with the series (well, one of them...) is that Jordan only has one female character who wears a lot of different masks.

Min is written as a boy in a skirt though; I'm not sure what Rand thinks about that.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Viol8]

Every other book since book 4 was going to be "the last book" according to or rumoured by Jordan at some point.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[A Jew]

well, we like it. I guess it wasn't written for you.

I don't read it for the setting. I don't mind conflicts in the story.

I just want to read something entertaining, and understand the authors world. it's interesting to try to understand other peoples thinking. plus if it has any ideas it's trying to communicate, that gives it a big plus on value and enjoyment.

besides, it's well written.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Jesus_666]

I think Jordan's strong point lies in the way he fleshes out his world. The WoT series appeals to me because it gives me detailed, dynamic world that adheres to certain rules. Seeing the characters interact with these rules and the state of the world makes it interesting. It's one interconnected whole, which is much more than you get with most novels/series.

Sure, Jordan sometimes writes repetitively. Sure, some characters keep reiterating their motivations (although one might interpret this as them being focused). Sure, the characters tend to come to the dumbest possible conclusions and the adhere to them as if they were holy scripture - as seen when Rand cleaned Saidin and all Aes Sedai concluded this must be a weapon of the Forsaken, even though such a slow weapon would be downright stupid. Sure, many readers don't care about what Elayne thinks of Birgitte's chioce in clothing and the latest fashiond trend it has sparked.

But even though the writing has obvious flaws I love the Wheel of Time series, because the world is so very detailed; that makes it immersive to me. Even though many characters are somewhat two-dimensional, they are believable (the real world has plenty of two-dimensional people, as well). I guess it's a matter of taste. I like the overdetailed world of WoT, even though most of its inhabitants' thoughts could be algorithmically predicted in P-time.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Huntr]

Oh, I certainly understand there are different strokes for different folks. Its great that you've found many fantasy authors you enjoy. I wish I could say the same.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[mike2R]

The first 3 books were really quite amazing, and I was very prepared for a really great finale in book 4... which never happened

A lot of people seem to feel that way. I'm the complete opposite, I found the first 3 books to be well done, but essentially a standard coming-of-age type fantasy story. Not bad (at the age I was when I read the early books anyway), but nothing massively exciting.

From book 4 (where they basically come of age) it becomes something else - purely in my opinion by far the best fantasy work with the exception of Tolkien.

Just what works for you I guess, but it seems to be the way that the series progressed past book 3 that separates the fans from the deeply frustrated former readers.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Nimey]

Fuck me, you aren't seriously suggesting that Book 10 was more than filler and catch-up, are you? The plot *barely* advanced through the entire book. In fact, the only plot change I can think of was Egwene's capture.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Stefanwulf]

In their defense, 1184 pages _is_ about the same length as one of Jordan's books.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Sandbags]

...and again to the point, did this do anything more than add pages to the same volume? These "tedious" reminders don't make the series longer, only the book in your hand, which costs you the same as the thinner abridged volume you are requesting. If you don't like his style, read another author, but please don't complain about authors who do this being money horders.

(note: i appologise if you're not the original poster, forgot to check)

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Sandbags]

When i know how a Law and Order eppisode ends, I don't watch it. Part of the WoT's attraction is that all of us KNOW how it's going to end. It's the 13 books to get us there, the experiences and growth of the characters, that make it a worth read. That and his wonderful descriptions.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Sandbags]

APrt of the story IS the polotics. He's telling this story from multiple sides, multiple perspectives. If you don't like this type of reading, then that's your choice, and I don't begrudge it, but it is what it is. this is not a common fantassy, this is 3rd generation hard fantasy. it's like the difference between a mystery and a romance, they should not be compared directly.

Also, if you don't like this, don't go anywhere near George R R Martin!!!

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Sandbags]

Stopping at book 1, you are right. It's not a saga, it's a story. the first 4 books as a set, great read. The other trilogies associated with the world however can't really be read alone without reading these 4 first, but do theyt really add to the overall story? no, they are simply episodes taking place there in that world. It's filler reading. David Duncan has the same issue currently. There are not enough characters of interest, not a large enough web of possibilities to account for a story so large.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[chromatic]

These "tedious" reminders don't make the series longer, only the book in your hand, which costs you the same as the thinner abridged volume you are requesting.

That's rather interesting logic. "Sure, it's useless and repetitive and makes individual books longer, but it doesn't make the series longer."

i appologise if you're not the original poster, forgot to check

I'm not. I'm just complaining that RJ has needed better editing since at least book four.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Yunzil]

Jordan rarely used "filler prose" as you claim. His descriptions were allways vivid and captivating, and all of his writing for his more than 20 main characters was exceptional.

This is a joke, right?

Book 10 (I think it was) was nothing BUT filler prose. Nothing of any note happened until the last few pages. His descriptions may always be vivid, but frankly, I'm not really interesting that some random woman is wearing a wide, floor-length dress of a delicate blue, slashed with cream and decorated with a delicate pattern of seed pearls at the bodice; along with a necklace of silver filigree and firedrops with matching earrings that dangled from the ears that are framed by her elaborate braided honey-blond hair. Or whatever.

Re:Does that mean another 10 tedious volumes?

[Specter]

"Jordan rarely used "filler prose" as you claim."

Light! I've read through the series at least three times and I'll tell you that spurious claims that Jordan used filler text make me want to yank my braid. If I wasn't so busy smoothing my skirts and schooling my face to a perfect example of Aes Sedai serenity, I'd be veiling up like a black-eyed Aiel.

Next they're going to be suggesting that the Else Grinwell sub-plot doesn't have a bearing on the final battle. Sheesh.

And to think...

[TWX]

...that about seven years ago, friends of mine and I joked about abducting Jordan and holding him until he finished the series...

Re:And to think...

[BoChen456]

About 7 years ago, my friend and I joked about how horrible it would be if Jordan died before he finished writing the series. :*(

Wait, What?

[roadkill_cr]

"Finish" his novels? Wouldn't it be more to Jordan's liking if Brandon Sanderson just kept writing book after book on the Wheel of Time until he dies, too?

Re:Wait, What?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. I think Hubbard has the franchise on that.

Re:Wait, What?

[B3ryllium]

It's official, Brandon Sanderson is the new Dread Author Jordan!

Re:Wait, What?

[philoye]

I'm still hoping someone will write a fan-edit of the 12 book series. Break out a machete and cut that thing down to a "mere" six books.

Well...

[jesdynf]

He's not the author. But he is *an* author.

Re:Well...

[accessdeniednsp]

hahah! mod parent up! well said :)

Whew! That was close...

[starglider29a]

I heard an ancient prophecy that said that when the Wheel of Time of was ended, so too was Time.

I'm sure that was poppycock... heh heh... right?

Re:Whew! That was close...

[TWX]

I heard an ancient prophecy that said that when the Wheel of Time of was ended, so too was Time.

That's somewhat in error. That happens when Duke Nukem: Forever is released...

Re:Whew! That was close...

[Shinmizu]

That's somewhat in error. That happens when Duke Nukem: Forever is released... That, too, is in error. Duke Nukem: Forever was released at the beginning of time. This universe? It is simply the computer on which Duke Nukem: Forever is running. Duke Nukem: Forever is the question to the answer calculated by a previous universe, and, when finally this universe comes to an end, those beyond shall know in entirety the question.

Re:Whew! That was close...

[Pad-Lok]

I heard an ancient prophecy that said that when the Wheel of Time of was ended, so too was Time.

That's somewhat in error. That happens when Duke Nukem: Forever is released...

The final volume of Wheel Of Time will include a free copy of Duke Nukem: Forever.

Re:People Who Read Fantasy Books

[Selfbain]

Yes, trolling slashdot is a much more productive way to use your time.

Re:People Who Read Fantasy Books

[mordenkhai]

Well, obviously in the AC's opinion, learning to spell "comparison" is a waste of time rivaled only by reading.

Your next mission, should you choose to accept it,

[smittyoneeach]

Head over to http://www.georgerrmartin.com/
You know what to do.

Comments on new author

[stewbee]

Has anyone actually read any of Brandon Sanderson's books?
I too gave up on the Wheel of Time because of Jordan's neverending story, but does this new author have the ability to wrap it up? Does he get more to the point of the plot than Jordan?
Anyone's insight would be appreciated.

Re:Comments on new author

[Anonymous Coward]

I consider myself a Brandon Sanderson super fan. So my opinion might be biased, but I have read his novels.

His books are amazing. For me, they have just the right balance of description, action, philosophy, etc. I'm sure your millage may vary, but he is someone who likes to write books that people enjoy. That is his motive. He doesn't want to show off his prose, convince you of his philosophies, or show you how he's not like everyone else. He just wants to write books that people will enjoy reading. IMO, he is very talented at doing that.

Re:Comments on new author

[mattmarlowe]

I've read all 3 of Sanderson's prior books and honestly believe they couldn't have chosen a better author to complete the series.

Regarding the concern about his ability to wrap the story up -- all of Sanderson's prior novels are essentially self contained. The books in his mistborn trilogy build on each other, but have their own major and minor plotlines which are fully resolved by the end (minus whatever single mystery is needed to be built upon in the next novel). Sanderson is about 100% opposite of Jordan in this regard.

I'd be surprised if Sanderson, building on whatever Jordan left, couldn't complete and resolve the entire series in a single final 800 page book if he wanted.

Re:Comments on new author

[moderatorrater]

I'm surprised that they chose Sanderson, actually. He reminds me a lot of Orson Scott Card in that he has a lot happen in very few pages. His novels have as much happen in them as any given WoT novel, but they're a third the size. I recommend you pick up Mistborn and read it (Elantris is also fantastic, but it's not as good and the beginning lags).

Re:Comments on new author

[Alexpkeaton1010]

From what I have read this was a great choice from a writing perspective. The only question that I have (not just for Sanderson, but for anyone who would take over this series) is that I am unsure if he will be fully vested into completing this. After all, this was Robert Jordan's life work, not Sanderson's. He has a massive amount of research to do before he can even start writing, and at most he will get 1 to 2 more books out of this series.

Re:Comments on new author

[AuMatar]

I have, and I recommend him. He hsa some interesting ideas, and has very good character driven stories. Not extremely epic tales, but solid and well written. I'm hoping he returns to his Elantris world at some time, I think there's a lot of ground left to be covered there. And best of all- he has freaking endings.

I do not think it means what you think it means

[Alzheimers]

Harriet Popham Rigney, Jordan's beloved wife and editor, said of her decision to have Sanderson complete the last book in The Wheel of Time series: "I have chosen Brandon Sanderson to complete Robert Jordan's great work, and I am absolutely delighted that he accepted. I will of course be editing this book as I have all of the other books of The Wheel of Time."

Suddenly, the word "Edit" has lost all meaning.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means

[Viol8]

Maybe we've discovered the nub of the problem - if jordan had been edited by a proper editor I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been told to cut a boatload of the padding and get to the friggin point, but because its his wife she wouldn't want to upset him and so just made minor amendments and suggestions etc...

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means

[rmassa]

The most consistently annoying thing about the WoT (I kinda enjoy the superfluous prose, but I'm a fast reader) was the bad editing. I mean bad. Spelling errors, grammatical errors, and typographical too (at least in all the hardbound books). All this time I thought it was just inconsistent QC at Tor, or RJ not allowing editing of his type. Heh, learn something new every day.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means

[bhima]

Sweet mother of god, please tell me it's not that simple!

I've restarted that damn series twice and even skimming to get to where I left off I have never got current.

Re:I do not think it means what you think it means

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone needs to invent "fan edits" for books, like what was done with The Phantom Menace. Grab one of the OCR'd versions of WoT, and wear out your delete key. It wouldn't help with the endlessly dragged-out plotlines (who killed Asmodean?), but it would make them go a bit faster.

Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[eldavojohn]

Right, I think you should really step back and consider what you are saying.

Every author has a right to express situations to the point they see fit. If you want to pull a Hemingway and tell things how they are, go ahead. "The night was dark." But I'm going to paraphrase something I remember from the intro to Stephen King's unabridged version of The Stand:

You can tell the story of Hansel & Gretel in about three sentences. Hansel & Gretel got lost in the forest. They happened upon a house wtih an old witch who offered them candy. She really wanted to eat them and they figured it out and dumped her in the oven.

Ok, so that was quick, but you know, it also is interesting to mention that they weren't so much as 'lost' as their bitch of a mother threw them in the woods because she loved their father but not them. Or that they left breadcrumbs certain they could find their way back. And also they kind of faced with a bit of a moral dilemma when they were faced with killing the witch. Oh, and when I talk about the forest, if I put some details into it to make it a little darker and scarier, it works better. Before you know it, I'm painting a novel. Yes, it's going to be long. Oh but all these things make the plot long and loopy and without everything being answered! Yes, it's going to have an overload of details but that's how I want to tell it. If you don't like, either don't read it or buy the Cliff's notes and get back to me on it.

Jordan went to the Citadel. He spares no expense on details. He also is an expert at explaining battles. If you don't like it that he answers questions with more questions, don't read it. I'm sorry but you went through book seven and I implore to keep going, some of the later ones get much better. It's the same thing that drew me to the X-Files & even some newer books, I'm sorry that it discourages you but that's what I love about Jordan. Not your average run of the mill fantasy series!

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[Viol8]

I like details as much as anyone , but there comes a point where you just want the trivia kicked into touch for a while and the story to move on.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't like it that he answers questions with more questions, don't read it. If someone doesn't like a book or series of books for whatever reason then they're allowed to say so. Just like if you don't like someone's comment then you can say so. Either of you can "just not read it" but we're trying to have a discussion here so, you know, discussing is part of that. Okay?

I'm sorry but you went through book seven and I implore to keep going What the...? You just said if he didn't like Jordan's writing then not to read it. Now you're imploring him to keep reading more of them! Are you going to ask for a vow of silence when he's finished the next one too?

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[NeutronCowboy]

There is a difference between prose that sets the setting, and prose that's just filler. I gave up reading fantasy novels long ago, because most of them had several paragraphs of describing the same. damn. characters. and. settings. Wild barbarian. Old, white-bearded wizard. Scary orcs. Etc. Etc. Etc. I've blown through more than one 700 page fantasy book in one sitting because exposition and description was about 90% of the text. Forget subtle character development or scene setting, things were delivered in neat paragraphs. Some longer than a page.

Master story-tellers know which elements of their story help their audience understand the point of the story. Hacks simply describe things. Details may be an artistic choice, but they definitely drive what I think of the artist. Sometimes, less is indeed more.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[DragonWriter]

Details are clearly an artistic choice. Sometimes, though, they are a bad artistic choice.

Its often said that in short stories, more than novels, its important to relate only details that matter (whether its to the mood or to the plot, or its best that if the detail serves the former purpose it also serves the latter) and ruthlessly eliminate the fluff.

I think that that is, perhaps somewhat paradoxically, just as true in works much longer than a typical novel as it is in works much shorter than one. While in the shorter forms you lack the space for both fat and meat, in the longer forms you are more likely to exhaust the readers tolerance for fat, but the effect is the same. A 2 million word megastory, I think, really needs to be nearly as lean, overall, as a 1,000 word piece of flash fiction; you've got some room to be more verbose in the first couple novel-length chunks of the bigger work, but beyond that you really need to buckle down if you want to avoid drowning the reader in a tide of minutiae that overwhelms the story itself.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[CarpetShark]

You should read some Robin Hobb. Fantasy for sure, but none of the cliches you'd expect. Very good stuff :)

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[susano_otter]

Hansel and Gretel, outlined in the style of Robert Jordan:

Book 1: Hansel and Gretel live happily with their mother and father. Their mother falls ill and dies. The family mourns her loss. The father starts courting another woman in the village, to the dismay of Hansel and Gretel. At the end of the book, she wins over the hearts and minds of the two children and marries her father. They live happily ever after.

Book 2: Oh, wait, they don't live happily after all. The stepmother turns out to be hateful and cruel. Ultimately, Hansel and Gretel resolve to run away from home. Gretel expresses fears about the wicked witch who is rumored to live in the Forest, but Hansel insists nothing could be worse than living at home with their stepmother. After much bickering, they depart.

Book 3: Hansel and Gretel cross the boundary between Village and Forest. Gretel reprises her misgivings about the dangers of the forest. Hansel reiterates his arguments in favor of running away. After much bickering, they agree to continue, using bread crumbs to mark their trail. They get lost. Gretel blames Hansel. Hansel stubbornly refuses to admit his mistake.

Book 4: Hansel and Gretel wander through the woods, lost and disoriented. Gretel continues to complain about the foolishness of running away from home. Hansel continues to insist it's the right thing to do. Gretel continues to berate him about the bread crumbs fiasco. Hansel persists in his mule-headed self-righteousness. They meet a Wise Owl, who warns them about the Wicked Witch of the Forest.

Book 5: Hansel and Gretel wander through the woods, lost and disoriented. Gretel continues to complain about the foolishness of running away from home. Hansel continues to insist it's the right thing to do. Gretel continues to berate him about the bread crumbs fiasco. Hansel persists in his mule-headed self-righteousness. They meet a Cunning Fox, who encourages them to visit the Wise Woman of the Forest.

Book 6: Hansel and Gretel wander through the woods, lost and disoriented. Gretel continues to complain about the foolishness of running away from home. Hansel continues to insist it's the right thing to do. Gretel continues to berate him about the bread crumbs fiasco. Hansel persists in his mule-headed self-righteousness. They meet a Cryptic Raven, who warns them about the Wicked Witch of the Forest.

Book 7: Hansel and Gretel wander through the woods, lost and disoriented. Gretel continues to complain about the foolishness of running away from home. Hansel continues to insist it's the right thing to do. Gretel continues to berate him about the bread crumbs fiasco. Hansel persists in his mule-headed self-righteousness. They meet a Devious Serpent, who encourages them to visit the Wise Woman of the Forest. ... and that's about the point where the Faithful Reader finally realizes that this hack has stretched a simple fairy tale into seven giant novels in which nothing actually happens.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[moderatorrater]

You should read Sanderson's other stuff (Elantris or Mistborn). He tends to use sparse descriptions in favor of characterization and plot. It's great.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[chromatic]

You missed the three books where Hansel doesn't appear at all and Gretel camps outside the witch's house complaining about the weather for three days. One book, one day.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[NeutronCowboy]

Thanks for the comments. I'll check them out.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[wilder_card]

A lot, and I mean A LOT, of fantasy books released for a good while were really bad imitations of Tolkein. This is why they all seemed the same. One of the first to break the mold and do something different was Stephen Donaldson. If you haven't read the first Thomas Covenant trilogy you should check it out.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[orielbean]

Try George Martin's novels. They read well and don't have the ponderous feel of most fantasy novels. He used to write for television and does an excellent job. He has a fantasy series known as the Song of Fire and Ice which is a great read. You don't feel the same exact boring fantasy tropes trotted out for thousands of pages, and he keeps you involved in all the story threads.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[clem]

Well done.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[Randle_Revar]

You forgot to put in the sniffing, snorting, and braid pulling
Other than that, great job!

Sincerely,
A fan of the series

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[ac666]

I'll add one more recommendation - Erikson. Talk about a guy who gets about 5 times more story advancement per page than Jordan, and whose atmosphere and sense of place are unlike anything else you've ever read. If you want to talk epic fantasy right now, it's Martin, Erikson and everybody else. I know RJ (RIP) played an important role in expanding fantasy's audience, but as a writer, he can't hold a candle to either of the aforementioned.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[ArikTheRed]

Yeah - this is why I'm such a huge Terry Pratchett fan. There is prose, and then there is prose. His books are the latter.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[ThreeGigs]

You forgot to tell us about their clothing. Woolens, silk, colors and styles, please.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[rkanodia]

Luckily, Gretel remembered to bring two changes of all-black clothing and $300 of personal burial money, so the witch admitted her to Project Mayhem.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[esmrg]

The titles of the epic Hansel and Gretel Series:
Book 1: Mother's Heart
Book 2: The Stepmother Rising
Book 3: The Great Departure
Book 4: The Path of Crumbs
Book 5: The Shadow Fox
Book 6: Crossroads at Cryptic Raven
Book 7: Knife of the Witch

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[vga_init]

Master story-tellers know which elements of their story help their audience understand the point of the story. Hacks simply describe things.

What you're describing is valid in a way, but I think you are overly broad and dismissive. Examine the works of JRR Tolkien, for example. The Lord of the Rings was basically the parent of the entire fantasy genre as we know it; most of our fantasy concept sticks close to his original vision.

The Lord of the Rings is interest because it acts as a depiction of his vision of a fantasy world. The novels have almost an entirely definitive value. Could the story have been better? Sure... Could the characters have been greater, more developed? You bet. Tolkien was not about producing that kind of literary effect... he was rolling out a definition, and arguably an important one at that.

We are so inundated with Tolkienesque fantasy that we basically take it for granted. That's what spawns rants like yours about how you're sick of people exposing the same subjects over and over again. You're familiar with the old, so you are upset that the new is strikingly similar to it.

Rampant exposition is characteristic of the fantasy genre. It may be because the authors and their readers are nostalgic for those days of Tolkien where everything is explained as if it were new to the reader (and seriously, if you are in love with the genre, as many passionate devotees are, you never really get sick of hearing these types of things repeated). It could also be because that's simply what fantasy is all about--describing a world of make-believe to other people, hoping that they'll see what you saw and enjoy it just as much.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[Anonymous Coward]

My friend, try reading Steven Erickson. I may love Jordan, but with SE you do not get BS, you get straight up good storytelling and writing. After reading his latest book, i have erected a temple in his honer and i speak my devotions twice a day.

P.S. His first book is considered his worst, so don't give up until you have tried his third; Memories of Ice

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[Sergeant Pepper]

One book, one day It worked well enough for Solzhenitsyn. ;)

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[chromatic]

It worked because Ivan didn't spend the whole day whining!

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[Sergeant Pepper]

Touché. :/

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[tylernt]

Exactly. Roger Zelazny was the master of this, if you ask me. His novels are short and action-packed... the guy never wasted a word but you still get a feel for the setting and the characters. The first few paragraphs of Chapter 2 his first Amber novel, Nine Princes In Amber are a perfect example of balancing minutia with pacing.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[chromatic]

The best example is near the end of Nine Princes.... Zelazny describes one character's hours-long fight up a staircase full of enemies in a couple of paragraphs, and then several pages in a subsequent scene describing a very short fencing match, and you don't notice unless you're looking for it because the scope of each description is so contextually right.

Re:Details Are an Artistic Choice, My Friend

[Jesus_666]

Let's not forget the "Rand cleans Saidin" equivalent:

Book 17:
Chapter 1: Hansel and Gretel's father cuts down a tree.

Chapter 2: The evil stepmother turns toward the lugging site and wonders about what kind of diabolical weapon could have made such a noise.
Chapter 2: The witch turns toward the lugging site and wonders about what kind of diabolical weapon could have made such a noise.
Chapter 3: Hansel turns toward the lugging site and wonders about what kind of diabolical weapon could have made such a noise.
Chapter 4: Gretel turns toward the lugging site and wonders about what kind of diabolical weapon could have made such a noise.
Chapter 5: The axe manufacturer turns toward the lugging site and wonders about what kind of diabolical weapon could have made such a noise.
Chapter 6: Robert Jordan turns toward the lugging site and wonders about what kind of diabolical weapon could have made such a noise.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[MightyMartian]

Now there is a fantastic writer. His Ice and Fire series is very good.

Kill some people this time.

[bigdady92]

Seriously, kill off a few of the 'main' characters.

That's always been the issue with these books is that Jordan created a handful of characters, then added a few side characters and said "Oh my these are interesting let's flesh them out!" and he did...over 10 f'n books worth of side characters!

G.Martin, Glenn Cooke, Dan Abnett, all are good sci-fi/fantasy writers that can handle multiple characters and wack them off at a whim and leave you feeling that you are sad to see them go but there's a reason they are gone and the story moves on. These hangers on from seachan whichs to aes sedai, to aielmen of the north to whatever in the later books all come and STAY. Noone leaves the main thread, hence why his books are 1k pages long and full of worthless fluff "She fluffs her green jade dress full of sparkling diamonds while pulling on her hair and frowning at "

I was able to carve the book down by 1/3 by simply ignoring most of the side plots and only reading stuff that concerned Rand,Matt,Perin. If it didn't involve them I didn't care, I moved along.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[Selfbain]

The way GRRM kills off characters unexpectedly is one of his greatest strengths. I find his books much more difficult to predict than most.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[SirLurksAlot]

I was able to carve the book down by 1/3 by simply ignoring most of the side plots and only reading stuff that concerned Rand,Matt,Perin. If it didn't involve them I didn't care, I moved along.

I think you're missing the point here. RJ wasn't just writing about Rand, Mat and Perrin, he was writing about the entire world. Yes, Rand, Mat, and Perrin are the main protagonists in the series, but you can't expect everything to happen to them all the time. By fleshing out the side characters, the history of world, the various countries, etc, he was able to bring the story alive. There was a lot worth reading that didn't happen to those three.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[Kipper the Llama]

Are you kidding? Without spoiling everything, the significant death in book three comes out of thin air because it violates what you know about the characters up to this point and happens far too flawlessly considering the large potential number of problems in pulling it off. (None of which Martin addresses.)

George R.R. Martin is hard to predict because his plots are determined by dice-rolls or attempts to seem "edgy" and "realistic." He is largely exciting and fun, but he does violate story structure for shock-value.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[Quiet_Desperation]

"Oh my these are interesting let's flesh them out!"

And then he *does* kill off the most interesting character in the series, Moiraine, way back in book 5. I really lost interest after that. It was like having Gandalf plunge into the depths with the Balrog and Tolkein never brings him back and never explained what happened.

At least George R.R. Martin (in the Fire & Ice series) knows when to kill off main characters when they become less interesting.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[chromatic]

Rand, Mat, and Perrin are the main protagonists in the series, but you can't expect everything to happen to them all the time.

Maybe so, but I expected something to happen to them eventually.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[Erwos]

Did you even read book 11? Judging from the comments, it seems like I'm the only person on earth who managed to make it through 10 & 11. In book 11, Moiriane's fate is specifically addressed. Hint: she may not be as dead as you think she is, and the people who are going to save her are probably not who you expected.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[moderatorrater]

Sanderson regularly kills main and side characters.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[dasunt]

My personal favorite was the character who died of an infected wound several days after battle.

Now that's a way to realistically kill off a major character in an historic fantasy!

Re:Kill some people this time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to dis Mr. Martin, I love the Ice and Fire books so far. But I don't think he has killed off as many characters as you think he has.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[RandomBitFlipper]

Absolutely! I love how GRRM creates these wonderful multidimensional characters, makes you love them, and then kills them off. Cruel perhaps, but it's far more gripping when characters get into trouble - they're doing a high-wire act without the safety net of some contrived resurrection.

Actually, if this is going to be the end for WoT - Sanderson can kill off ALL the characters :-P

Re:Kill some people this time.

[AuMatar]

No, give or take 1 addition the people going to save her are exactly who I predicted way back when it happened. It just took a decade and a half too long for them to do it. I can even tell you how they'll trick the snakes/foxes.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[demonbug]

I hear this a lot, but I found it to be one of his greatest weaknesses. He basically kills all of the characters I found to be remotely interesting (or at least the ones that I could at all identify with). There didn't seem to be any central plot line, any goal he was going for, he just went for the shock value of killing off main characters left and right for no apparent reason.
That said, I really enjoyed the first book. I read it, and immediately got everyone I knew who was into fantasy to start reading it. The second one was okay, and I think I quit the series part way through the third book - it just got boring. There were no characters to care about, and it completely lacked a strong central plotline to keep me going. It became apparent that he was merely writing the book to be contrary to what the reader wants/expects. Similar to Goodkind in that respect, except that Goodkind doesn't actually kill off his characters, he just tortures them over and over and over (along with the reader with his often blindingly dull prose, something that Martin generally avoids - his books are chock-full of individually interesting events, they just don't make a story that I care at all about).

Re:Kill some people this time.

[Icarium]

By the last few volumes, I was skim reading through most of the book, only really paying attention when the story concerned Rand (Being the main character and all) and Matt (Being the only interesting character left in the story). So I "read" about 1/10th of the last few books.

Goodkind, however, has (had?) Jordan firmly beaten in the 'I can write more boring filler than you' category. After his fourth book or so, it started to feel like I was reading a religious text with all the constant morality tales and preaching. I think I actually read a grand total of 50 pages (out of 700) the last time I ventured into his realm, simply by skipping the recaps and preaching, and without losing the plot.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[AuMatar]

No, Goodkind just tortures his readers. Especially when midway through the series, one book becomes a complete tangent and the rest of the series becomes Atlas Shrugged fantasy edition. If I wanted to read libertarian propaganda I'd read.... actually, I'd jump off the roof and kill myself if I ever felt that way. I pretend that he died after the first book these days, it was a shame such a promising author never published again.

Re:Kill some people this time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's just me but I got a soapie feel to the character killing..

It was like a soap where a hot blonde leaves at the airport and then we cut to straight to a scene when xxx's ugly cousin arrives new in town and turns out to be a hot blonde now.....

Kill one off bring in a similar replacement.

Yes, but...

[DoctorPepper]

After he finishes reading the current 5 dozen grueling volumes of "The Wheel of Time", he'll run away, screaming and plucking his eyeballs out!

It's great that they're got someone to finish it

[PeterM from Berkeley]

But long ago as the series dragged on and on, I decided to boycott the whole series until it was finished.
If the new author continues the serie in the same spirit as Jordan was, then it'll be another 5 books at least,
and another 15 years it's done and I start reading it again.

--PM

That's why they chose him

[makomk]

He'd already read the series and his sanity was (mostly) still intact...

Re:That's why they chose him

[Jesus_666]

Hello? Fantasy author. You don't become a good fantasy author if you're entirely sane. Sane people are boring.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[OpMindFck]

Thats exactly what I did when I saw this news.
At least with Ice + Fire, I have a sense the story is actually heading somewhere.
Now, If he could just finish Dance...

UUUMMMMMMMM

[axia777]

You geniuses realize that Jordan was writing the LAST BOOK RIGHT? There ARE NO MORE after this one. Jordan was going to start writing a shorter series based upon a totally different world and mythos. SO all this guy has to do is finish the book based upon Jordans notes and his widows directions, considering she was helping with the writing in the last days because he was so damn sick.

Re:UUUMMMMMMMM

[berashith]

I also realise that this was a book, then a trilogy, then maybe 4, then maybe 9 or 10 ...

then it kept growing through the middle numbers. How can you reach the end of a series if in book 6 there are new developments and no plot lines wrapping up?

Last book my ass. This was going to go on forever.

Re:UUUMMMMMMMM

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares? I stopped at book 6 back in 1996! My family even had a copy of 7. Didn't want to bother. I don't want to know what happens. You actually think I want to read books 7 through FRRIGGIN 12????? That's like reading books 200-400 of the Nancy Drew series. Who the @#$# cares what happens!?!?

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[smittyoneeach]

actually heading somewhere

Albeit not a bookshelf near you.

Read some of Brandon's Work

[Anonymous Coward]

If you go to Brandon Sanderson's website, www.brandonsanderson.com you can read sample chapters from each of his novels. He also has a book Warbreaker, that he has released free under the Creative Commons License. It's a full book, that will be published by Tor and sold in 2009, but you can also download it, print it, send it to friends, etc free of charge.

All I can say is...

[m4cph1sto]

If RJ didn't reveal who killed Asmodean somewhere in those volumes of notes and dictations, I might go postal.

Re:All I can say is...

[hansamurai]

That made me incredibly angry. Asmodean was one of my favorite characters, you never quite knew what is true intentions were. I think Jordan killed him off way too quickly and after I finished that book, I went online looking for answers and just found pages and pages of speculation with the only quote from Jordan saying "someone got it right." and that's that.

Re:All I can say is...

[eddy]

He's also reported as saying "it's obvious" who is the killer :-\

Re:All I can say is...

[Teese]

In the interview with the new author:

I know you probably can't go too deeply into it, but are there any questions about the story you had as a fan that you will make sure get answered in this final novel?

Yeah. Who the flip killed Asmodean? And, beyond that, what's up with Moiraine? Is she alive or not?

so, looks like he wants to know too!

Re:All I can say is...

[christurkel]

Graendal. She is the only one who fits motive, and plausibly qualifies as "Obvious". Other suspects, such as Moridin weren't known to the reader yet, therefore not obvious.

Re:All I can say is...

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Brandon's forum, he says he now knows who killed Asmodean, but obviously can't tell us (yet).

Another bonus of Brandon doing this, is the amount of work he puts into his writing outside the book itself. For his other books he released annotations, deleted scenes and other info. Fans of the series will probably get a lot more information about the world of the Wheel of Time than just what is included in the last book.

Re:All I can say is...

[geekoid]

You! You're the Asmodean killer! Merv Griffin!

Re:All I can say is...

[Sergeant Pepper]

who killed Asmodean Bella.

Re:All I can say is...

[Jesus_666]

I sure hope it fits my "Moiraine, Lanfear and Asmodean chilling out on a beach in a parellel universe, laughing about the people who still haven't realized the *elfinn are animatronic puppets" theory.

For some reason my theory is seen as unlikely by other fans of the series.

Book Twelve. The End

[doas777]

Jordan was much/most of the way through the last book, #12 at the time of his passing, and I was told that he had shared the ending (the high points anyway)with several parties in case he didn't make it though. I have to assume that this guy will finish up book 12, and that will be that. I don't envision an unending series as many here claim will be.

Parent is correct

[Matrim Cauthon]

Jordan was writing the LAST BOOK This. Jordan said that book 12 was going to be the last one, regardless of how long it turned out to be. I'd mod him up for truth if I had points. On a another note, book 11 was amazing in what it did and what it wrapped up. Plot lines started 6 books previous were finally resolved. The Last Battle is coming, and boy did you feel it. Some of the criticisms about getting lost in the details of WoT, and not much happening, I agree with, but mostly in the middle books. Things started picking up again in 9 or 10.

Re:Parent is correct

[Breakfast Pants]

Jordan only said this after he found out he was going to die.

This IS the end

[Anonymous Coward]

This WILL finish the series. I've read the outline, and I am confident that I can do it in a single book. This won't go five more novels. It will end here.

Note that I'm not saying there won't be more Wheel of Time material released. That's not up to me. There were notes for prequels (Mr. Jordan wrote one of a planned three) and some notes on what happened to certain characters after the end of book 12. However, those are all intended as extra information and separate books outside the Wheel of Time main series.

Book 12 will deal with the final battle and give resolution to the story started in EYE OF THE WORLD. It will be one volume if it's within my power to make it so.

--Brandon Sanderson (Who really needs to sign up and get a Slashdot account sometime.)

Re:This IS the end

[PolarBearFire]

This fake and if it's real...OHMYGOD go finish the series so I can read it before I die.

Re:This IS the end

[Kazrath]

Why would this be fake? He's a Sci-Fi writer... It's not like they have any interest in Geeky stuff... I mean seriously which sci-fi writer would be interested in computers, space travel, technology, and other related things.

Re:This IS the end

[E-Sabbath]

Loved Elantris, by the way. Best way I've been able to describe it without spoiling it is an unholy fusion of Thomas Covenant and Wheel of Time and Exalted, only actually a love story between two cultures. With an ending. Neal Stephenson of fantasy, only with an ending: Familiar enough tropes, used in unfamiliar ways that make you think.

Pretty good stuff.

Re:This IS the end

[Anonymous Coward]

I have literally nearly died twice while waiting for this last book, I hope I get to read it before old Grim finally catches up with me :)

Re:This IS the end

[berashith]

I see a suspicious "if" in there...

Is it possible to take endless meandering and bind it into 4500 pages and sell it as a single volume?

Re:This IS the end

[Morinaga]

I read the first book my freshman year in college (1990). Now, I'm 37 years old with a wife and kid and it's hard to believe this whole thing still has legs. I've seen epic MUDs established from it's lore, video games and a catalyst of epic fantasy series since it's release. I imagine you're on board to finish Jordan's story, not to reinterpret it through your own vision. All I can say, as a past fan who lost his way so badly in the series that I don't know know which way is up... I would certainly enjoy a volume that captured the flavor of Eye of the World. Something descriptive on the narrative of the story, not descriptive for descriptions sake.

Re:This IS the end

[AuMatar]

On the off chance this is really him- I'd love to see a sequel to Elantris. There seem to be a lot of open questions in that world that deserve answering.

Re:This IS the end

[DerekLyons]

Or, in other words, despite 'finishing' the series - the franchise will live on and on.

Re:This IS the end

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, he's a fantasy writer, so his interest in science is at the very least questionable. Congratulations... You are fail.

Re:This IS the end

[Jardine]

I see a suspicious "if" in there...

Is it possible to take endless meandering and bind it into 4500 pages and sell it as a single volume?

Robert Jordon had said in an interview that book 12 would be the last book even if you needed a hand truck to get it in and out of the bookstore.

Re:This IS the end

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Brandon Sanderson and so is my wife!

Re:This IS the end

[Jesus_666]

Doesn't make a difference to me; I'm German and the German release gets split into three to four sub-books. That's a good thing, actually, because that way I don't have to wait for all of it to be translated.

Yeah, I should read the original, but after having invested a lot of shelf space and money in the German version so far I'm going to read the German ending, as well. Also, I'm not the only person in the family who reads Jordan.

Re:This IS the end

[mcvos]

Neal Stephenson of fantasy, only with an ending

That settles it. Sanderson is now officially on my list of authors I really need to read.

Neal Stephenson is one of my favourite authors, and the only book he actually managed to give sort of an ending (Cryptonomicon) dethroned LotR as my favourite book ever. And author like that who can write a decent ending has to be one of the most brilliant authors ever.

Re:This IS the end

[Kaneril]

I don't know who modded this informative, but this is obviously not Brandon Sanderson writing.

From the interview Brandon makes it obvious that he has not yet had the opportunity to read all of the material left by Jordan and so even if he was not bound by contract from disclosing this kind of information, he would not have the knowledge to make this statement.

Re:This IS the end

[chromatic]

The date of the interview was 8 December, and Brandon mentioned that he would likely see it on 10 December. It's possible.

Re:This IS the end

[kalirion]

The interview makes it seem that he has read the outline, but not the detailed notes.

Re:People Who Read Fantasy Books

[A Jew]

It's not about the setting, it's about the story, the ideas, and the characters. the odd settings just allow for complete freedom from history, geography, and everything else known to man. of course, they still don't give the author freedom from his own mind.

The wheel turns

[RichMan]

I stopped reading back around book 3/4 when a bad guy came back from the dead.

If they keep reincarnating the author the series will never end.

The wheel turns.

Re:The wheel turns

[Randle_Revar]

When a character came back from the dead? It is a good thing you didn't keep going, there are.... at least 4 characters back from the dead, another one on the way and one arguable. Maybe more than four definites , I might be forgetting some.

The cash cow hath been bequeathed

[Dracos]

I read WoT at the insistence of several friends, and it was good in the beginning. The opening chapter of book five marked a subtle change... this is when Jordan realized he had a cash cow on his hands and started shamelessly milking it. I stopped at book 10. Also, describing a dress on every 10th page (or more) got tedious.

In my experience, whenever an author introduces some long lost culture from across the sea bent on conquering the known lands, the series should have ended because the author obviously had nothing more to say.

Re:The cash cow hath been bequeathed

[Kelson]

In my experience, whenever an author introduces some long lost culture from across the sea bent on conquering the known lands, the series should have ended because the author obviously had nothing more to say.

So you're saying it should have ended with the first book, then? The Seanchan make their appearance in book 2.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[Salamander]

Head over to http://www.georgerrmartin.com/

. . . if you want to repeat the experience of having the author die before he finishes his darn series. Don't get me wrong, I thought the first couple of SoIaF books were among the best fantasy I'd read, but then it became apparent that he was going to keep adding more characters and locations and organizations and plotlines than he was shedding . . . just like Jordan and WoT. Robin Hobb's Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies are just as good, and they do reach resolutions. I'm really really hoping that Greg Keyes's Thorn and Bone series doesn't suffer the same kind of rot, because it's just as good too. Simple rule: if you're still discovering new civilizations, secret societies, or kinds of magic in the third book, give up because the author's obviously adrift in a sea of unconnected ideas.

heh

[hypergreatthing]

I'll just wait until the summary (which will be no less than 5 pages) will come out about the series.

Seriously, all you did was read about hair twirling and useless jabber between unimportant characters while you waited until the 2nd to last chapter for the good stuff, then in the final one what was going to happen in the next book.

You could read more story in the friggin' covers of the series than you would get out of reading it in it's entirety sometimes.

so he's almost completed the preface?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Jordan himself worked on the novel almost daily for the last few months of his life"

The last 3 or 4 books, at least, had prefaces so damn long that I was bored before the book even started. I figure that with several months of writing time, he's probably gotten at least halfway through the preface this time.

Just One

[Kelson]

Jordan was already planning to make this book the final one.

Actually, the last 2 books really picked up steam as he started moving toward the conclusion.

Books 6 through 9, however, were pretty tedious.

Is There A Wheel of Time Chapter Summary?

[SpottedKuh]

I'd like to direct an open question to all of you, regarding the Wheel of Time...

My biggest problem when reading (or rather, trying to read) the later books in the series was the huge number of characters. While this may make a sad statement on my reading and concentration abilities, I simply got confused. I couldn't remember what minor noble was up to, when last we met him twenty-three chapters ago, and how other minor noble was plotting against him.

So, my question is: is anyone aware of a "what you know"-style summary for the Wheel of Time series?

What I mean by this is the following. Imagine an interface where I could click on any chapter number for any book in the series. Then, what it would list for me is what we know, to date, about every character in this chapter. In this way, I could actually keep the characters straight, without worrying about spoilers (e.g., if I found a summary that listed what every character did in Book 9, because I was halfway through the book and couldn't remember what some character did in an earlier chapter, this would contain spoilers about the end of Book 9).

I know this would be a huge undertaking, but do any of you know if it has been attempted? With such a resource, I may actually be able to finish what started (i.e., first six-ish books) as a very enjoyable series.

Re:Is There A Wheel of Time Chapter Summary?

[Sminthian]

How about doing a Google search? http://www.google.com/search?q=wheel+of+time+synopsis

Re:Is There A Wheel of Time Chapter Summary?

[SpottedKuh]

How about doing a Google search?

Thank you for your feedback, but anything that I've managed to find wasn't quite what would be useful to me. If I missed something in my search, it wasn't because I didn't try looking.

Perhaps I titled my question poorly. I wasn't looking for a listing of what happened in each chapter. Consider when I come to chapter X in book Y, and it's discussing some character C, whom I don't remember well. The ability to pull up a summary of each previous chapter isn't useful, unless I hunt and hunt for references to character C. What I want to be able to do is open the listing for chapter X in book Y, and find out everything about character C (and all other characters in chapter X, book Y) that happened in previous chapters. Think of it like a cross-referenced listing, or something. What am I supposed to know, to date, that I inevitably forgot?

As I said, if such a cool cross-referenced listing exists, I just completely missed it...

Re:Is There A Wheel of Time Chapter Summary?

[GaryPatterson]

I've always felt that at the point where you need to take notes as you read, any fiction has become unwieldy. I've felt that with a few authors in the past, and have steered clear of Jordan's series mainly due to the sheer mass of the books. Now I find that people feel a need for a summarised version with cross-linked character data, I feel pretty good about not touching those weighty tomes.

Much too cerebral

[TWX]

That, too, is in error. Duke Nukem: Forever was released at the beginning of time. This universe? It is simply the computer on which Duke Nukem: Forever is running. Duke Nukem: Forever is the question to the answer calculated by a previous universe, and, when finally this universe comes to an end, those beyond shall know in entirety the question.

I think that if Duke was here right now, he wouldn't understand what you'd said and would beat the crap out of you instead.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[Recovering Hater]

George Martin - "Hmmm, what can I do to distinguish myself from all the other J. R. R. Tolkien wannabee authors out there? I know, I'll go by the name George R. R. Martin."

What a douche.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[Reapy]

I agree here. I read the first three books of ice and fire and instantly they became my favorite books of all time. I even got non fantasy readers to check them out and enjoy them. Finally, FINALLY book 4 came out (a few year wait for me :( ) and, wow, it was a huge bore. I was pretty upset with it. He set up book 3 to advance a few years, and pick up. But then mid write he decides that he has to tell all this other stuff. Fie. All of it irrelevant. It's like in this book he took everything I liked from the other 3 and threw it off to the sidelines.

In any event, from reading his website, it seems like the man is a victim of his own success, and that writing the book is becoming a chore for him as we are all nipping at his heels to finish it up. He probably needs to just lock himself in his basement with all his miniatures until it is finished up.

I will also add that I agree with most posters here about jordan. I got half way through book 9 before I threw it down in disgust, and even then I was pushing it. The problem was the endings had fun, interesting events, but the beginning was the same man hating women and uncertain little boys running around with 10 million different characters, switching plots anytime the one I was reading got remotely interesting. I didn't know he had passed away before finishing the series until reading this post either. I hope the new author can clean up everything, even though people have assured me "it gets good" in later books. I keep hearing that, but it is so hard to find the good :)

Reapy

I used to read WoT...

[raehl]

I gave up for similar reasons. There are entire pages in each book that seem to be cribbed from previous books. It's annoying. It's an insult to the reader.

The universe created was a very good fantasy universe. The delivery (actual writing) stunk.

WoT would make a good movie/video game though.

Re:I used to read WoT...

[King Gabey]

Hear, hear. Somwhere in the middle of book eight when I read about one more time someone knowingly shared the ways of [wo]men or some character was [angered|bewildered] by so and so stomping off angrily, so confused because [wo]men were so illogical i beat myself on the head with the book screaming "no mas!" until i passed out, just so i wouldn't have to read it anymore. when i woke up i tossed the devil book out the window.

Re:I used to read WoT...

[Sandbags]

We must forgive Jordan of his 8th book. He was having serios health problems as well as a death in his family (His father if i recall) and the publisher mistakenly pressured him into pushing out the book. he admitted it was his worst work and appologised to his fans for allowing the publisher to push their contract in such a way.

He made up for this with the following novels.

Also remember, some of what he's writing is repetitive due to the long times between books. He writing for his fans that have been following the series, not for those picking it up for the first time. At some point, I'd suggest TOR hire a good editor to consolodate and re-edit the series for such a purpose eliminating the redunancies while maintaining the integrity of the store (don't edit out plot, or even prose, just simple reppetittion, and onyl when justified).

It's not the length, or the endless supplication

[sewiv]

It's the ridiculously stupid characters that killed my interest in the series. How many times does someone have to do something without the slightest thought to the consequences before they get a sense of responsibility? Don't they realize that they're in the middle of an important battle between good and evil?

Woops, I re-joined this guy's severed powers, and I have no idea if he's the dragon or not.

Woops, I shot that unknown target with balefire.

Woops, I gave away an important secret by babbling stupidly (dozens of times).

Every single one of the main characters, and most of the secondary characters, were total idiots. I spent most of the time wondering if it could get worse, then marveling at how much worse it could get, then wishing they would all die.

Please, finish it, so that it goes away forever.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[captnjameskirk]

You mean wait for another author to die before finishing his next book? His last book was split in half because he wasn't finished with it 3 years ago, and the second half STILL isn't done.

argument tips

[mckwant]

You might want to avoid discussing the unabridged version of The Stand up when you're advocating highly detailed, yet inarguably long-winded writing. Similarly, you probably want to avoid discussing Napoleon when arguing for a land war in Asia.

I'm not arguing, read what you want. Having said that, your literary paths and mine are unlikely to cross (probably to both our detriments).

Have some respect, guys

[HeronBlademaster]

Mod me -1 Troll if you will, but you guys who complain about the books all suck. No, hear me out.

I won't say you're wrong (though personally I think you are) because it's largely a matter of opinion - but to claim that everyone else is wasting their time is just plain rude. If it's too long for you, move on - don't tell everyone else they're stupid for reading the series. I happen to love long books and long series with deep characters and plots - even if it's frustrating sometimes.

It reminds me of the thread about Robert Jordan's death. Those of you who made comments to the effect of "Good Riddance" are just plain horrible people. That's very insensitive. Have some respect, seriously. Those comments made me bitter towards the general slashdot populace for several weeks (and I'm not a bitter person). I guess some of that is still lingering.

Don't ruin the mood of those of us who are looking forward to the last book, or I'll send you spam email with a picture of a cat saying "IM IN UR HEAD HAXING UR PASSWORD" ;P

Re:Have some respect, guys

[sewiv]

I bought the books, I read the books. What more is an author looking for?

I also like long books, if they're long because of all the good writing in them. "The System of the World" is a great book, and it's several thousand pages long, in three volumes.

Re:Have some respect, guys

[berashith]

Just leave Robert alone.
If you have a problem, the come to me about it, but leave Robert alone.

after all he has done, and all he has provided, you all just attack him.

so just LEAVE ROBERT ALONE!

Re:Have some respect, guys

[geekoid]

"it's largely a matter of opinion "
He is a technically poor writer.

"Have some respect, seriously."

Why? he's dead. Just because someone dies doesn't mean they deserve some respect. Unless you have some primitive fear he'll be back.

No, those people who bad the comments you mention are rude and insensitive, and I would make those comments, but dying take no effort, and in theory we will all do it.

Re:Have some respect, guys

[HeronBlademaster]

"He is technically a poor writer."

That comment is, of course, opinion, not fact. An opinion a large number of people disagree with. Don't assume that because you know how to use the word "technically" in a sentence that it somehow makes your opinion more valid than others. Incidentally, based on the number of grammatical errors in your post, you're the *last* person that should be making a comment like "he is technically a poor writer". At least his sentences are grammatically correct.

"Why? he's dead. Just because someone died doesn't mean they deserve some respect."

So your view is that noone gets respect unless they do something specifically for you to deserve it? And since you never met Robert Jordan he doesn't deserve your respect?

It takes a lot of effort to write lengthy novels. That by itself is deserving of respect, whether or not you like what he wrote, whether or not you like him personally, whether or not he's alive. He created a world that has inspired the imagination of (dare I say it) hundreds of thousands of people all over the world. (Have you ever done that? I didn't think so.)

"No, those people who bad the comments you mention are rude and insensitive"

So... I can badmouth a dead man without being rude, but if I defend the dead man the people are badmouthing, I'm rude?

Maybe telling you all that "you [who badmouth Robert Jordan] suck" is rude. I can live with that. But you cannot say with any degree of accuracy that the people I'm referring to are not rude.

"I would make those comments, but dying take no effort"

He fought a rare blood disease bravely, death did not take him easily. It would have been easier for him to just let the disease kill him, but he did not give up. That too earns him respect.

geekoid, just because you don't like his writing does not mean he's unworthy of respect. It just goes to show you don't know very much about him.

The ability to respect those you dislike and/or disagree with is a sign of maturity. Grow up, geekoid.

Re:Have some respect, guys

[lexpattison]

I believe if you take out all the hair tugging and skirt smoothing - the 12 books can be reduced to 3 and a half.

Come on - the first 3 books were genius... Somewhere along the way he fell into his own inkwell.

End the treadmill?

[kabdib]

End the treadmill? Noooo!

I was waiting for Jordan to bring in the Wicked Witch of the East, Dumbo, Elron (the elf one), Elron (the e-meter one), a singing chorus of catamites, eighteen truckloads of laid-off house elves from the Harry Potter universe, the Tooth Fairy and Scrooge.

Now we'll never know what was supposed to happen. Wah!

Re:It's not the length, or the endless explicatio

[sewiv]

s/sup/ex/

Howard Tayler(Schlock Mercencary)...

[Symbolis]

...seems to think this is good news. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/blog/index.php/2007/12/10/brandon-sanderson-tapped-to-finish-wheel-of-time/

That'd be good enough for me to give the last book a go...if I had read the rest of them. My tastes (mostly) mesh with his.

He also recommends giving a book called Elantris(by Sanderson) a read.

eBay for Me

[N8F8]

I just put my 11 volume collection up on eBay. After years of trying to force myself to keep reading I finally gave up. I LOVE a good book series but I need to feel like the story is moving along.

Re:eBay for Me

[Jesus_666]

You do know that book 12 will be the last one? Everything after that will be potential prequels and sidestory bits; the main series will be concluded in the 12th book. RJ has stated that fact several times and Sanderson has stated so himself, in this very article discussion.

Heh. Jordan...

[Greyfox]

I started reading the series and liked it. After book... I dunno... 5 or 6 I said "Oh, for the love of God!" and stopped reading them. I always intended to pick up the last one and read it, confident that I would have missed absolutely NOTHING of import in between. That makes Jordan's death rather ironic in a way...

Also ironic was the fact that he could not get an entry into the six word story contest (Mentioned here on Slashdot a while back) in six words. He ended up using 7 or 8 if I recall correctly.

I wonder how his tombstone reads. If I had been in his situation I'd have 8 or 10 of them right next to each other along my grave. But then, that's just my sense of humor.

From a technical standpoint I think he would have been better off just doing trilogies. He could have done the first one where everything got screwed up, then at least two or three later ones in different times with different characters all trying to fix the problems. Then he could have wrapped it up at any point with one set of those.

Anyway I might still pick up the last book and read it, I'm not sure. I'm just as happy to have left it where I did, too.

Re:Heh. Jordan...

[WMD_88]

I wonder how his tombstone reads. If I had been in his situation I'd have 8 or 10 of them right next to each other along my grave. But then, that's just my sense of humor.

I know it's a joke, but...I've seen his tombstone. It's just a little in-the-ground thing that says "James O. Rigney 1948 - 2007". Just for the record. ;)

Re:Heh. Jordan...

[Jesus_666]

I wonder how his tombstone reads. If I had been in his situation I'd have 8 or 10 of them right next to each other along my grave. But then, that's just my sense of humor.

Heh, that is pretty funny, in fact. Don't forget that they have to include a detiled description of what he was wearing at his funeral and "I wonder XYZ was here. He understands women".

No...

[SeePage87]

...it means another 11 tedious volumes (plus a prequal).

Harry Potter films

[Kelson]

Each potter book, some of which are 800+ pages) only translate into 2 hour movies.

Rather choppily, I'm afraid. The last two movies were rushed Cliff Notes versions of the books, showing the high points without any sort of through line. As visuals to go with the books, they were okay, but as stand-alone movies, they would have benefited from an extra 30-60 minutes to follow through on elements and connect them, instead of just presenting them staccato. Whether the target audience would have been willing to sit still for 3 hours is another question.

Re:Harry Potter films

[Sandbags]

the first potter book was practically a script for the movie from what m y wife explains (with obvious lack of followthrough on minor, unimportant details of the world and side conversations as all movies lack when they are translated from books) Each further movie I understand was less true to the source, with almost a third of the 5th book bbeing left out of the movie. Note that each book is longer, but each theatrical release was shorter than it's predecessor. Still, you claim an additional hour or so would have done it justice, my wife thinks 2 m,ore hours. even still, that makes the biggest book a mini-series special on Sci-fi... I could not imagine the first book of WoT taking less than 8 hours on screen. Later books, more than half a season of TV each. George Martins books are currently being stumbled over by HBO as they try to hire actors and plan filming. Each book is planned to be a 24 episode complete season, standing on it's own, and they're woried that won't capture enough of the story to satisfy the core fans of the series! Potter could NEVER carry 24 hours of video per book. It's too simple of a story, too straight of a path.

The Wheel of Time is Written...

[SeePage87]

... and Stories come and pass, leaving books that become sequels. sequels that fade to prequels, and even prequels are long since read when the Author that give it birth has died and been replaced. In one book, called the 12th book by some...

Re:The Wheel of Time is Written...

[Randle_Revar]

Excellent!

Re:The Wheel of Time is Written...

[Jesus_666]

Even though that was immensely funny, if RJ's widow would read your post she'd be so pulling her braid over it...

Wheel of never ending time

[Anonymous Coward]

Like many here, I gave up after book 6 or 7. I just lost interest. Repetitive... and like others have said... the characters were pretty static.

So this news to me is a reminder to never try reading these books again.

You're like a paper sandwich: no taste

[spun]

George R R Martin is experiencing a similar pain with his series, as did Terry Goodkind. The fact that you can not tell Martin from Goodkind is all the evidence we need that your literary criticisms carry all the weight of a gnat-fart. Goodkind is another Jordan, a talentless hack who's writing style is juvenile and cliche, who can't develop a character to save his life, who's female characters read like parody, and who's plots and themes are simply terrible.

This is a collection of stories about seperate individuals following seperate paths each intertwined in common fates inside of an expansive world. This is really no different than the Dragon Lance series You just keep digging yourself in deeper.

If this is more than you can follow, (not to say too complex, but simply the sheer volume of information and time required to invest in it) or if the collection is simply longer than your attention span, then I can reccomend many other great authors to you, and I will caution you to avoid Tad Williams, Neil Stepheson, George Martin... How you can seriously mention those three in the same sentence as Jordan? Seriously, can you honestly see no difference? Okay, I'll admit I liked Star Wars, even though I thought it was crap. I like the Phlinx of the Commonwealth series even though Alan Dean Foster is a hack writer. The difference, I know when something I like is utter crap, and I have the decency to act embarrased when I admit to liking it. You can like The Wheel of Time and no one will disrespect you (much) for it. But to try to defend it as literature only opens you up to mockery.

Please, you name some very good writers as well as some very, very bad ones. Try to figure out what the difference is. It isn't just, "I like this guy." There's plenty of writers I don't like at all, that I know are good, and plenty of writers I like who aren't very.

Re:You're like a paper sandwich: no taste

[Anonymous Coward]

s/who's/whose/g

;D

Donatello and Michaelangelo have the right idea

[tepples]

In the early books, even a few Trollocs or single Myrrdraal was an issue. By the middle books, they were being beaten up by farmwives with kitchen implements. I haven't read any Wheel of Time books, but self-defense with farming tools is not so far-fetched. Think back to the Satsuma regime in Okinawa and its weapon control policy, which resulted in the martial arts now called kobudo. Where do you think the nunchaku came from? It was a modification of the flail, a farming implement. Carrying a pair of buckets on a stick and under attack? Drop the buckets and swing the stick.

Re:Donatello and Michaelangelo have the right idea

[geekoid]

Anyone who thinks farming tools can't be used as weapons is just ignorant and has the unfortunate curse of no imagination.

Sharp instruments for plowingm axes, long sticks. Remember is was peasants with long sticks that brought the downfall of armored knights.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[airencracken]

He'd be a much better choice. George R.R. Martin is a kickass writer.

Remember Sturgeon's law?

[alexo]

Once we got into real literature, we realized what a bunch of pap nearly 90% of fantasy authors out there wrote.

90% of everything is crud.

Re:Remember Sturgeon's law?

[Viol8]

So whats the 10% of crud itself that presumably isn't crud?

Re:Remember Sturgeon's law?

[Your.Master]

Subsumed in the +- 1% error bar.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[smittyoneeach]

Concur. The point was that, after finishing WoT, have this guy go finish up Martin's interesting, yet still dangling...

Re:It's great that they're got someone to finish i

[Tsunayoshi]

Obviously you, as well as a ton of others who are posting, didn't bother to RTFA.

It is quite clear that book 12 is the last, this author was chosen by Jordan's widow personally to finish it, and there is an extensive set of notes, including numerous chapters already written, for the new author to work from.

I can't wait until it comes out.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[ucblockhead]

That's not entirely true. Supposedly, this has always had a set ending. Martin originally said that this was going to be a six book series. (Though the fourth book has since turned into two.)

teh s3cr3t!!1!!

[AdamThor]

they have big fighgt! Thers a HUGE SWARD and esplosions! RAND R0XX0RS THE BL0XX0RS, and he kills all the b4d guys! teh bene gesserit I MEAN AES SEDAI (d0h!) help some, but so do some Fremen I MEAN AIEL and they spend the hole time arguing wether dudes or chicks r00le m0r3 (LOL).

At teh end all the bad guys are dead -- EXCEPT 1 of THER BODIES IS GONE LIKE HE SNUCK OFF OR SOMTHN!! AND RAND IS FATALLY INJURD! *SOB* But doont wory he gets reencarnated 'cause the wheel in the sky keeps on turnin!

(GOTO BOOK 1)

MOD UP!!!

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

I think I just wet my self a little. Finally, a joke w/out all the venom everyone else seems to be spewing!

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[Rodness]

I think the problem is that he's too busy working on other projects (e.g. miniatures, tv series scripts, book signings, wild cards, home renovations, etc.) to sit down and finish the damn series that got him popular in the first place.

The man is easily my favorite author, but it's really frustrating when he can't be bothered to release a book more often than once every 3-5 years.

-r

read them all and liked them

[Is0m0rph]

I don't the dislike and ranting against this series most other slashdotters do I guess. Yeah it's too many books and could have been shortened. I read them all and liked them. I'm happy to find out they will finish it and the end is in sight. Wish Jordan could have finished it himself. RIP.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[dickeya]

I've been over there a few times, but am sick of reading about how his football team is doing. I love the series but am getting tired of waiting.

A childish view of gender

[Infonaut]

Female character sniffed. "Wooly-headed men," she thought.

Male character sighed. "If only other male character were here," he thought. "He understands women."

That's exactly why I gave up on the Wheel of Time somewhere in the middle of the third book. Jordan's view of relations between women and men was transparent, simplistic, and it infected every aspect of the story. I wanted to scream, "Stop writing and go get some female friends!"

Re:A childish view of gender

[Anonymous Coward]

Crap, I just ran out of mod points, and this post really deserves some.

Every single goddamn female character in WoT was the same exact vaguely misogynist stereotype. And yet they also manage to emasculate the men every single time, unless they're busy spanking each other. It's sort of a bizarre look into Jordan's mind. You almost get the impression that he was trying to write powerful, self-confident women, yet had absolutely no clue what one might behave like.

Re:A childish view of gender

[Nostariel]

Exactly! I had to stop reading the books because the gender relations became so nauseatingly offensive. (>_)

Re:A childish view of gender

[skinfaxi]

That's why I stopped reading them, too. All the lead female characters were in love with the main dude. And there was supposed to be all this tension over them not scratching each other to pieces like they were dying to do (because he was sooooo important they were all willing to struggle to overcome their "natural" female tendencies). It did seem like he knew no women at all (but had some fantasies about how he'd like them to act if he was the hero of a novel!).

Re:A childish view of gender

[Nostariel]

I got right up to the book where all the girls decide they're cool with sharing him with each other (WTF?!) before I realized how gross and weird the gender relations in those books really were. I was just a kid when I started reading them, but I still feel a little stupid for not realizing it before. :/

Changing face of the enemy

[Kelson]

In the early books, even a few Trollocs or single Myrrdraal was an issue. By the middle books, they were being beaten up by farmwives with kitchen implements. By the late books, hundreds of them aren't really a big deal. A shame really, as when you lose respect for the foes, the series loses a lot of depth.

Related to that, there's a point around book 5 where the nature of the enemy (or at least the enemy cannon fodder) changes. For the first few books, it's mostly Trollocs and Myrrdraal -- literally faceless and bestial. But then the various Aiel factions rise to prominence, and the Seanchan, and nations are going around making alliances and conquering each other with armies. Suddenly the enemies have a face, and are all too human. It changes the dynamic considerably.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[WMD_88]

No, it was three books (conception), then four (publication of GoT), THEN six. Then seven. :/

So, will the writing actually be any good?

[ThousandStars]

I ask rhetorically because so much fantasy isn't. People like this argue that books are all a matter of opinion, which is true in a superficial, theoretical way, but the reality is that some authors are capable of fresh, interesting, and insightful writing, and some recycle the same schlock endlessly.

Most of the negative comments in the first link also apply to The Wheel of Time, a series I read before I knew any better.

"I gave up at volume 7" == insightful?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll bite. Where is the insight in proclaiming one's ignorance in the guise of informed criticism?

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[Anonymous Coward]

George R. R. Martin had a successful science fiction career (mostly at novella or shorter length, including stories such as "Sandkings" and "A Song for Lya") long before he moved to novel-length epic fantasy. So no, he's not just some Tolkien wannabe trying to capitalize on having the same middle initials.

FInally

[geekoid]

A competent author to write in Jordan's world.

If Jordan

[geekoid]

was taken under Ben Bova's wing, I have no doubt the wheel of time series would be the best story every written.

Ben Bova had a positive effect on every writer because he knew when a story was too verbose, and he could get them to cut their stories into the bear minimum, so every word was a nugget of gold craved by the reader.

w00t!!

[shrikel]

Since Sanderson is my new favorite author, this bodes well for my enjoyment of the series. I actually haven't read the last couple of books for various reasons that anybody familiar with the series should understand. But this is the best news I've heard in months!

Re:It's great that they're got someone to finish i

[Samah]

/agree here.
I stopped reading at the end of book 8 and was convinced (after much gnashing of teeth) by a friend to read book 9. SOMEHOW I managed to get through that, but once book 10 came out I just gave up. When the "final" book comes out and is officially announced as "final", I'll buy the rest of the series, then start from scratch. It's been so long I can't even remember half of the characters' names!

On another note, here's a summary of a standard WoT book (excluding the first):
First quarter of the book: "Prologue", refresher of the entire contents of the previous book.
Most of the rest of the book: Pretty much nothing happens except for one minor "climax" to keep you reading.
Last chapter: Something actually happens that could have been spread across an entire book at half the thickness.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great story and I love it; it's just very long-winded.

This IS the outline

[Anonymous Coward]

The Outline:

1. Rand prepares for the Last Battle.
2. Rand sets off.
3. Rand starts to feel a little dizzy as he approaches Dragonmount and falls over dead of undiagnosed cardiac amyloidosis.

--Brandon Sanderson (Who plans rename "Rand" to the obviously superior "Brand.")

Encyclopaedia WoT

[ZJVavrek]

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

It's not exactly what you describe, because it doesn't produce a "To this point" description of what's known per chapter per character. It does have summaries of individual chapters with links to (very) brief summaries of all the characters involved, including a list of all the times they've participated in the plot and when they've been referenced.
There are also detailed descriptions of the locations, what happened there, etc.

The wheel of time is a story told

[geekoid]

at an 1:1 ratio

I am waiting for the books on tape

[geekoid]

read by Ben Stein.

Rip Off Artist

[lexpattison]

I read the first seven books. Then I read Frank Herbert's Dune.... Jordan ran out of material to copy from Herbert around book four... then all he had was braid-tugging and skirt-smoothing nostalgia to attract readers. He milked the series for money and jumped the shark a long time ago.

Reminds me of a mockup I once saw...

[FiloEleven]

for The Wheel of Time book 97: Tarmon Gai'don. Along the bottom was written "Finally, it's fucking over - The New York Times"

This post would have been much more effective had I found the link, but I think it's gone forever.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[Flunitrazepam]

I loved the Ice and Fire series, I've never really read any kind of fantasy books, but that series had me more captivated than any books I've ever read.

I don't know where to go now, I have heard some things about Wheel that make me think I wouldn't like it. Do you know of any other epic series like it that are targeted toward adults (as Ice and Fire was)?

Why 12 specifically?

[cbhacking]

On the offhand chance you read this, I'd love to know: Is there any particular reason that the series is to be 12 books? I mean, even leaving aside the number of plot lines that must be wrapped up* I had simply always thought 13 was a more expected number; there are a few 'significant' numbers in WoT and 13 seems to pop up more than most. Was 12 books selected for any particular reason? If you really love Jordan's creation and are as good at conclusions as other posters have said, I look forward to reading your end to the series... but I wonder, does it need to be in one volume? I'd always assumed that Tarmon Gai'don (the last battle, itself) would occupy much if not all of the final book (defense of the Two Rivers, presumably a much smaller event than Tarmon Gai'don, occupied a decent chunk of book 4 - and I loved it) but given how much remains to be wrapped up, and that the story doesn't seem quite ready for said battle (not that this means it won't happen anyhow) I think I would love TWO final books even more.

Just curiosity, and my $0.02.

* I don't recommend reading this list by anyone who hasn't finished book 11; this may contain spoilers:

Egwene and the siege of the tower, Seanchan attacking the tower as Egwene dreamed, the growing split in the Black Tower, Arad Doman's chaos due to Seanchan, Dragonsworn, Whitecloaks, the Forsaken, and of course their own great general, Matt, Tuon, and the Seanchan Empress herself (and their version of the Prophesies), Elayne with her pregnancy and the struggles for Caemlyn, Galad and the Whitecloaks, Gawyn and Egwene, Faile, Galina, Perrin, the Seanchan, and the Aiel, All of the countries Rand doesn't somehow control already (even if you limit yourself to what it shows on the maps, he's only got about half of them), Moridin and the meaning of his constant use of Saa, Moiraine's presumed return, Luc and Isam (are they even different people anymore?), and of course the last battle itself... this is only a partial list, at that.

Re:Why 12 specifically?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe 12 book because people are getting tired of having to wait for more to come out. One of the things Robert Jordan had said I believe was that he would make book 12 the last book no matter how big it had to be to get it done.

Lost

[Builder]

They should have got one of the writers from lost - they seem to have studied Jordan very closely.... forever inserting new characters, spinning off new sub plots and never resolving anything.

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[smittyoneeach]

I really don't, though I haven't read that much of the contemporary stuff. Martin's experience in Hollywood and horror, I think, informed his plotting style uniquely. Must admit I've only read the first three; I decided to blow off the 4th until I can have a 5th with it (of the non-hydraulic kind).

Re:Your next mission, should you choose to accept

[chromatic]

You might like the Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series by Tad Williams. He doesn't pull a lot of punches, and there's some good writing.

Snape killed him.

[Branch_Dravidian]

Duh.

Re:It's not the length, or the endless supplicatio

[The_reformant]

It's the ridiculously stupid characters that killed my interest in the series. How many times does someone have to do something without the slightest thought to the consequences before they get a sense of responsibility? Don't they realize that they're in the middle of an important battle between good and evil? Woops, I re-joined this guy's severed powers, and I have no idea if he's the dragon or not. Woops, I shot that unknown target with balefire. Woops, I gave away an important secret by babbling stupidly (dozens of times). Every single one of the main characters, and most of the secondary characters, were total idiots. I spent most of the time wondering if it could get worse, then marveling at how much worse it could get, then wishing they would all die. Please, finish it, so that it goes away forever.

Wow described like that its almost as if it directly inspired 24.

Excellent idea

[mcvos]

There are a lot of writers who are terrible at writing a decent ending to their story (Neal Stephenson is another strong candidate here). Perhaps Sanderson should become a consultant to help all those other writers out there wrap up their stories.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Asmodean is dead???

I guess I'm the only one

[BitterAndDrunk]

I think I'm the only one who thought Book 6 was simply fantastic.
Good enough that I reread it 3 or 4 times, simply for the final chase scene with the Aes Sedai and Rand.

Generally speaking, Jordan was pretty hacky and stole all of his plot-lines, period. Dune's Fremen were the Aiel, the first trilogy was Lord of the Rings sans Hobbits, and there's another half-dozen hack fantasy cliches spilled throughout the series. I read through book 10 before putting it to rest, and never recommend it to anyone looking for a fantasy series.