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National Car Tracking System Proposed For US
bl968 writes "The Newspaper is reporting that the leading private traffic enforcement camera vendors are seeking to establish a national vehicle tracking system in the United States using existing red-light and speed enforcement cameras. The system would utilize Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) to track vehicles passing surveillance cameras operated by these companies. If there are cameras positioned correctly the company will enable images and video to be taken of the driver and passengers. The nice thing in their view is that absolutely no warrants are needed. To gain public acceptance, the surveillance program is being initially sold as an aid for police looking to solve Amber Alert cases and locate stolen cars."
Here's some food for thought:
The coils of wire embedded in the pavement, which are used to monitor freeway traffic and to control traffic lights, could detect the type of car that is passing over by the waveform it produces at the sensor. With some clever signal processing you could distinguish roughly the shape and size of the vehicle.
These sensors are everywhere - you might pass a hundred of them in a day. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to then see that if you could gather data from enough of these sensors, you could track a particular vehicle over the course of many miles. Combine this data with the camera images and you can also identify that vehicle.
I cannot possibly foresee a way that this could be turned against the public in some horrific Orwellian fashion.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Why does it come as absolutely no surprise that they will sell a way to track your movements with "think of the children"?
"So after all this, you make my case for me. To end this stalemate, you must die..."
But it's all in public space, so there must be no expectations of privacy, right? RIGHT?
You can't handle the truth.
Need I say more?
Now the agenda of the DHS should be clear for everyone. It isn't about catching terrorists, its about tracking every citizen. Most of their money goes to putting up cameras in cities across the US, big and small and putting up "fusion" centers which track everything.
Call me crazy or whatever you want. It isn't hard to verify everything I said via google.
If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
"You knew this would happen, didn't you?"
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
If you have nothing to hide.
Great now I am sure there will be some company out there that will use this as a means of tracking people and selling it as a service. Kind of like the cell phone tracking for kids. I bet there will be some husbands or wives out there who want to see if their significant other was really where they claimed to be.
Where's everybody's car?
This is the predictable, but despicable extension of the surveillance society. I, for one, do not want to live under the ever-widening stare of RoboCop. George Orwell is surely saying 'I told you so' from his grave. Fight this wherever you can.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain. --Friederich Schiller
Don't expect to see this go anywhere, not for a long time at least.
On this side of the pond.
To my friends in the UK, I'm so terribly sorry. I'm assuming you will have this technology installed and in full swing by next Tuesday.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
Fuck.. That... Shit...
Police later cleared themselves of any serious wrong-doing following an extensive investigation.
I just love this quote so much, for so many reasons.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Rotating license plate technology that uses GPS to automatically rotate the gaphic of a clenched fist with middle finger extended when going past red light cameras...
Impetuous! Homeric!
ATS likewise is promoting motorist tracking technologies. In a recent proposal to operate 200 speed cameras for the Arizona state police, the company explained that its ticketing cameras could be integrated into a national vehicle tracking database. This would allow a police officer to simply enter a license plate number into a laptop computer and receive an email as soon as a speed camera anywhere in the state recognized that plate.
- in a Freudian slip, I misread this:
cameras for the Arizona state police,
to be this:
cameras for the Arizona police state,
and I am serious, it took me reading the sentence 2 more times to understand that it was written the other way around. And after I read it correctly I thought that the authors must have made a mistake.
You can't handle the truth.
I'm buying stock in bicycle manufacturers.
Who the F#*(*U#$ are these bastidges that come up with this crap?
What freaking universe do they live in where something like this would even be REMOTELY considered acceptable?
See what happens when FemiNAZIS push for women to go to work and dump their kids in daycare?
Welcome to the screwed up world order.
Before you EVER consider putting your child(ren) into daycare make sure you're not chasing some F*(#$ dream at their expense.
There is NO excuse for daycare... children NEED their parents.
Without it you get crap like this, kids shooting each other in school and thousands of other problems that have cropped up over the last 30 years.
CARE FOR YOUR KIDS! Nobody else gives enough of a shit and your kids will turn out just like them.
At least here in Florida, the law states that one can not obscure one's license plate. But, if one recesses the license plate into the vehicle and uses proper lighting, then the cameras can not see the plate, but the police on the ground can, therefore the plate is not obscured.
Also, in places like Florida where only a rear plate is used, getting a picture of both the plate and the driver will require the use of two cameras.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
If you don't want your rights violated, try riding a bicycle. By driving a motor vehicle, you are giving up many of your rights, most of which have been whittled away with arguments of protecting public safety. You also have the added benefit of doing less to fund terrorism through the purchase of gasoline.
WTF? Why are private companies doing public surveillance & traffic enforcement in the first place?
If you want to boil a frog, you don't dump it into a pot of boiling water. You put it in cool water, and slowly bring it to a boil.
Who here would want to be dumped into a pot of boiling water? I figure between those two evils, being burned and jumping out, or being boiled slowly, I say the later is the lesser evil. At least that way we don't feel the pain.
This is just one step in the corrosion of our civil liberties. We're bound to have the worth eventually happen. So why not let it happen and be done with it?
A huge red flag when commercial entities want to enforce laws. But that's what happens when the Governments start outsourcing.
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
When my wife and I were in another state, we were using her car, I was driving, and I got photographed running a red light. They sent a citation to my wife, complete with a copy of the photo clearly showing me driving. They demanded that she either pay or give the name and address of the person who was driving. My wife - who is a lawyer - told them that that her husband was driving, and then refused to give name or address. She informed them that is is a protected relationship, that is, you cannot be compelled to testify against your spouse. They gave up on it.
So register your car under your wife's name, and hers under your name. Don't have a wife? Pay your attourney to register it for you. Attourney/client relationship is privleged also.
"You do not examine legislation in light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered." -- Lyndon B. Johnson
Seriously, how do these people live with themselves, knowing what they are doing.
Can anyone come up with an appropriate car analogy for this?
See, there is a problem with that. This is video of public space, captured on law enforcement cameras. There would be no need to obtain the warrant because it would fall under the "plain sight" rule.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Let me guess: You forgot that GW shredded the constitution and wiped his ass on it, right?
It will just be chips in license plates and passports and drivers licenses. Soon they will implant "career chips" like Futurama and then they will be able to see morning, noon and night where everyone is, what they do, what they buy, and even the size of their latest dump. Wake me when 1984 is over.
Obviously not content to rely on his reality distortion field, Steve Jobs now looks to be even more forward-thinking than his press would have you believe.
A hero is someone who knows when to run away. I am a hero. -Trent the Uncatchable
Soon after the development of effective fly-by tags, some "crises" will coincidentally lead to a call for action from our fearless leaders.
I know this is my humor-impaired, off-topic inner redundant troll speaking, but I must re-iterate:
Won't someone please think of the children?
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
I guess its time to buy some of that anti-reflective spray for license plates that they sell in car magazines.
Your car was determined to be at point 1 at time alpha and point 2 at time beta. 1 and 2 or the same road with a speed limit.
(D2-D1)/(beta-alpha) - speed_limit = excess_speed
As the owner of the automobile this ticket has been sent to you under law HTA2009-01 and you are responsible for payment. A picture from point beta is attached for your reference should you not have been driving at the time you can contact the driver and make arrangements for them to reimburse them for your expense.
Note of this excess speed has been forwarded to your insurance company. Should the automated face recognition software have matched the photo against your drivers license you will also have been assigned appropriate demerits.
If an extreme hazard was detected in the amount of observed speed we trust that an officer has already contacted you about this issue.
Is the day I become a criminal by destroying any and all cameras I come across.
This technology is equivalent to having hundreds of thousands (millions) of officers watching the public highways and recording the every license plate. Included are also the clerks collecting the notes and able to search through them in seconds.
No society could afford this many policemen — the cameras and the computers are productivity tools, just as they are in the offices or at industrial facilities.
The old adage is, police can solve any crime, but not every crime — for lack of resources.
The real question is, do we want to increase the ratio of solved crimes (up to 100%) — as the technology may allow us to do? Or do we want to allow some transgressions unpunished to allow some "breathing room" for future fighters against some hypothetical tyranny?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Brown shirt manufacturers.
First up - IR license plate lights causing cameras to see nothing but glare where your license plate should be.
Next - New cameras at 400% the cost of the originals.
Followed quickly behind holographic projection license plate covers.
This can escalate for quite some time and only manufacturers and lawyers will make any money while not even 1/100th of one percent of criminals will be tracked with this system.
Sometime after it is established, the network will be hacked and more will be spent to secure the network. Still no criminals caught yet.
In larger cities, people will begin regularly using those rental cars things, where you all share vehicles, just grab one that is free at the moment. Fuel shortages will increase the use of alternatives to motor vehicles.
Criminals will always be using a stolen plate on the car they stole from elsewhere anyway.
The only people that can possibly be caught using this are stupid criminals and the innocent, where innocent is a variable of personal taste. A cheating husband is innocent in this case where it is used by his wife to catch him out.
Most interestingly, we'll be able to publicly verify that police are abandoning their creed of protect and serve with respect.
Well, they are possibilities...
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
This is a solution without a significant problem, and the money (that the government doesn't have) that would be used to support this initiative would be better spent elsewhere (if said money existed).
On a more serious note, I wonder if IR camera jammers work on these cameras, and if use of them doesn't trip 'concealment' alerts since it doesn't prevent any person from seeing the plate. An LED array around the plate is certainly easier to remotely control and not as suspicious looking. Might be time to actually build one of those like I've been planning...
A hero is someone who knows when to run away. I am a hero. -Trent the Uncatchable
It should be clear, but there are way too many stupid people.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
This one will get panned as a privacy violation right off. People don't want the government in their homes, their cars, their heads, or relatively anywhere near them(I know I'm one of them) least of all when they may be culpable for a crime that otherwise would remain off the books(driving with no seatbelt). I agree with all the other slashdotters chiming in that private companies in law enforcement is like putting "Hef" on amphetamines and viagra... Everyone's getting F'd .. And for those that read the whole article and ask what's the big deal? You need a warrant to use the system, but what keeps the Private company from otherwise using the data, pictures etc? It's a private company selling a service to the Police... This thing would be more abused than little boys at Neverland Ranch
The vidicon tube is long gone, all these cameras are solid sate which means they are sensitive to near infrared. Conveniently enough, the exact same type produced by LEDs.
It should be possible to create a high brightness license plate frame which will overload the camera and just leave a very white rectangle where the plate should be in the photo.
Still, private companies should not be in the business of enforcing laws or tracking citizens. Private companies do not answer to the public and are not regulated in the same way a police officer is.
The video feeds already exist so all this would do is put them in a useful format.
One thing that shall be understood is that driving a car on a public highway is **NOT** a private act, and thus expectations of household privacy cannot apply.
Furthermore, driving is a **PRIVILEGE** granted by the governments who own the roads, and they are free to implement whatever management methods to manage the use of the roads, up to and including the tracking of every single vehicle.
Locating stolen vehicles is only one benefit of the whole system; effective road capacity surveys could be conducted instantaneously, to help planning road expansion and/or maintenance.
Road congestion could also be monitored automagically, and drivers could also be suggested alternative routes to avoid tie-ups.
Congestion pricing could also be effected easily with that system, and it could even be adjusted according to different uses; for example, someone who takes his car to go half a mile away three times a day could be charged a nuisance fee whereas the tourist who comes from several hundreds of kilometers for the first time in his life would not be.
Service fleet owners could also, by paying a fee, monitor the location of their vehicle for better management of their fleets.
Car renters could also charge according to the location the cars are used. The possibilities are endless and go beyond what has been suggested so far.
"Judging from the summary, I don't see the issue so long as a warrant from a judge is needed to allow searching the system."
Are you serious? Why would they need a warrant to search their own data?
"I really don't see how one's whereabouts in public are a privacy issue."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/library/dc/dcpolice/stories/stowe25.htm
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
404 Not Found
what with the hundreds of billions of dollars we're borrowing from China and all...
You can get 15 minutes of fame, but you can go down in history for infamy.
"If you don't want your rights violated, try riding a bicycle." How about, if you don't want your rights violated, then move to another part of the Earth. Sorry, not an option me. I say that that deep, dark and dirty crevices where our law makers and enforcers reside needs a bit of sunshine.
-- Wondering how long until the internet becomes fully corporatist, like television.
Finally, I'll be able to find my car after parking it in a busy lot.
By 2018 or so everyone will be filming the vicinity of their car and/or home at all times anyway. (How better to provide evidence that an accident isn't your fault, or see who broke into your car, etc.) Once quality vidcams and computing power drop to almost $0, and cheap or free software makes it trivial to set up, why not?
Once that data is processed and correlated, everyone, including people who don't have the system, will be tracked everywhere and the information will be available to anyone. Even if only 1% of the cars on the road did this, in a metropolitan area everyone would essentially be tracked everywhere.
We're going to have to redefine our notions of privacy once everything that is detectable from a public space is recorded and distributed.
Of course, that's not quite the same thing as the government recording and correlating the data recorded in the public space and putting it in private databases.
About 60-70% of AZ residents are welcoming the highway speed cameras with open arms - thanks to Governor Napolitano whoring the state out to Redflex to balance her budget. (The tickets taken by the cameras will not count against insurance points - it's only a fine. Once you pay your "tax", it's forgotten.
If you speak out against the system, you're branded a speeder, GTA wannabe, and told to, "Just slow DOWN!", or, "Stop breaking the law!" They don't get that it's all about money (and now outright spying).
Hell, even if the people rose up against the system and stopped this tracking, what's to stop the NSA from doing it under the table with the same system, all in the name of safety?
I single-handedly hold Scottsdale, Arizona and its town council for bringing this system to the entire nation. If they'd had their heads pulled out and not put the system up on the Loop 101, it wouldn't have gained any traction to go state-wide, and now nationwide. Thanks, guys... I hope you enjoyed that paltry revenue stream while introducing Big Brother to us. Damn, I hate Scottsdale more than ever now...
It looks like the tin foil crowd got this system 100% right, and the sad thing is that nobody will be educated enough about what's going on to care.
Whether or not it actually achieves its stated aims, you know that law abiding people will suffer the negative consequences, while criminals and sleazebags will have a field day.
Here in the UK, with widespread introduction of numberplate recognition, people just steal or clone numberplates, and when crimes are committed using your plates, the police knock on _your_ door first.
A total waste of time and money.
...is obviously not aware that the base of this tech is already being installed in AZ. They could probably have this system installed nationwide and running in a decade or two, especially if it means more money in their pockets.
Is anybody seriously going to stand up to this? Or will we be like that couple in "Minority Report", where the spider robots came in their house, scanned their irises, and left, and the people didn't think a thing of it?
http://digg.com/odd_stuff/Big_brother_s_watching_you_from_the_next_intersection
Better to let this get broader audience than the privacy concerned geeks of /.
Clinton made me a Republican. Bush made me a Libertarian. Trump is making me question reality.
If this happens, I pity the girl that rejects that cop with little mans syndrome, as her every movement will be tracked, with or without a warrant. How about that dude, Drew Peterson, a cop who's wife has "disappeared". I doubt he would bother with a warrant to track his wife. How about that angry mother that "claims" her kid was "abducted" by its father, because the divorce is not going her way? This is so wrong on so many levels... damn
Win if you can... Lose if you must... But always CHEAT!
can anyone say "Hello privacy lawsuit!"?
If there are cameras positioned correctly the company will enable images and video to be taken of the driver and passengers
In related news, window tinting businesses report record profits this year.
It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
How would it tell my Civic from the millions of other Civics?
Obviously the system would have a degree of certainty that is dependent on the number of cars on the road, the uniqueness of the car in question, the number of sensors, etc.
The key premise is that cars don't just randomly appear and disappear from the road. They pass over sensors in a predictable sequence. You would use all kinds of heuristics. For example, you might predict when a given car should pass the next sensor, and then if you see that same signature at around the expected time, you can be pretty sure it was the same car. Correlate that with additional data about the cars nearby it and you can increase the degree of certainty. It's not simple, but it's feasible.
pulled over for driving with a ski mask on?
http://nwbagpipes.com/
This is all but inevitable. The only power there is will be that of limiting the invasion of privacy that a person reasonably has on their day to day business. Tracking someone in their car clearly is an invasion of privacy, even if they are in public, because that's not normal behaviour - you don't know where people have come from and where they are going when you see them in public, you see them in that instant doing a small portion of their daily movement.
However the infrastructure could be used in a responsible manner if the tracking is only granted by a judge for specific cars.
I can see where it would be useful for a stolen car - until the number plate is changed anyway. Thieves will get clever though, switching number plates early, putting the hot number plate on another car, etc. Of course these cameras could still track certain cars by model/colour if the camera network is dense enough..
Average road speed cameras are already in the UK. I don't know if they only keep records of transgressing cars, or if they keep a record of every car that goes past. I bet they record aggregate information - average speeds of vehicles going through at different times of the day and so on. The problem of these cameras, and systems in general, is that they aren't reactive to road conditions at the time, and they also are put in places with artificial speed restrictions, or even obscured speed limit signs. Revenue collection is the primary aim.
As if driving wasn't getting inconvenient and expensive enough.
Damn, I'm buying a bike.
Here in Boston the T keeps records of your use of the Charlie Card. The difference is the don't promise to EVER get rid of the data.
On the other hand, I think it's quite ironic that they chose a symbol of their failure to name their fare system after.
someone has to say it, this country is fucked.
Mod this sonfabitch up!
The nice thing in their view is that absolutely no warrants are needed. To gain public acceptance, the surveillance program is being initially sold as an aid for police looking to solve Amber Alert cases and locate stolen cars.
I mean, really, does anyone actually believes such obvious BS ? I guess it satisfies those people that want to be humbugged.
Aren't you glad there's no such thing as complete privacy in our society? I don't consider it "raping my privacy" if someone sees me in the street. And if someone decides to follow me where I go, well, it's a free country, isn't it?
It's true that any information system is subject to abuse, but stealing cars is also an abuse. I'd rather be exposed to somene being able to know where I go on the open street than being subject to the abuse of a car thief. I have no objection to surveillance, as long as two conditions are met: (1) it should be limited to public places and (2) the whole system should allow auditing and controls.
Slowly, all of the procedures shown in the movie, "Enemy of the State", are going into place. Soon, each of us will have our own reality show stored on a government database.
You sir are a retard.
Could this be the birth of ARTIE?
City information changed and posted anonymously for obvious reasons.
Homeland Security: Homeland Security is a nice euphemism. It sounds like our homeland, our country, our homes will be safe and secure. This sounds great. But in practice what Homeland Security does is spy on law-abiding American citizens. Phones can and have been tapped; email can and has been intercepted, postal mail can and has been intercepted, people can and have been denied transportation. While the last example is not an example of spying, it is an infringement on freedoms. Personally, I adore America as being the âoeLand of the Free.â But in the name of security, freedoms are being negated. The government is now keeping tabs on citizens âoeto keep us safe.â Here is an example of the government watching us. "Bob" is a policeman in "Regulartown, USA". In his police car, he has a machine/computer/camera that scans the area for other cars, and this machine reads the license plates. The machine/computer/camera then checks its database to see if there are warrants, arrest notices, etc. for the owner of the vehicle. The machine/computer/camera also adds information to the database that the vehicle and its owner were at X location at Y time. In addition to the equipment on the police cars, every road coming into and leaving "Regulartown" contains a camera/computer that does the same thing. This camera/computer is tied into Homeland Security and keeps track of peoplesâ(TM) movements. We are really close to âoe1984â. We already have a Big Brother watching us. Soon, I fear, we may have Big Brother openly directing us.
I understand the governmentâ(TM)s reasoning for granting Homeland Security its spying privileges. The government wants to keep us safe. However, this is America: The Land of the Free. This country is not âoeThe Land of the Safeâ. People naturally want freedom to do what they feel is right. These freedoms can be choices of which church to attend, what flight to take, who to vote for, when to travel, how late to stay out, when to speak out against government policies, etc. In Arthur Millerâ(TM)s play, The Crucible, a play I teach to my English III students, Miller addresses the issue of governments wanting to regulate people for âoesafetyâ and how this conflicts with people wanting to be âoefree.â In the authorâ(TM)s commentary, Miller outlines the government crackdown of communists in the 1950s. His play, The Crucible, is a great allegory of McCarthyism. Some believe that we are headed for a new form of McCarthyism today. It seems that today our government has a new enemy to use for taking away freedoms. In 1692 the enemy was witchcraft; in 1950 the enemy was communism; on September 11, 2001, the enemy became terrorism.
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"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
"Under the US Constitution, the people is the sovereign power, delegating its powers to the three branches of the state, executive, legislature and judiciary, which are supposed to be agents of the people. But delegating sovereign powers to private hands undermines the state's capacity to govern. Outsourcing political decisions threatens the democratic principle of accountability."
http://www.amazon.com/Outsourcing-Sovereignty-Privatization-Government-Functions/dp/0521867045
Read a preview at http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=ecAYc_tuAukC&dq=government+privatization&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=q2-SR9mtzn&sig=ox7JxfoBXmGeGTdZ6q5ArYb1skQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result
-- Wondering how long until the internet becomes fully corporatist, like television.
...in some States it is illegal to have cameras for ticketing purposes (e.g. Virginia, which outlawed them with the shut-down of their test programs).
So...they might be able to use the general traffic cameras, but those would not likely be able to read enough detail to track anything, let alone the numerous cars visible on their picture at any given frame.
And don't forget - the ticketing cameras (e.g. speed limit & red-light runner cameras) only have a 1/3 accuracy rate to start with. (For every 3 attempts to ticket, 2 were thrown out.)
So I don't see how they are going to do very well...
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
How long will it be before the whole system is integrated, or if it already is when can we elect a strong leader who will put it all to its proper (domestic) use? I'm referring of course to:
1. Those big NSA Hubble prototypes.
2. TIA wiretaps with voice recognition software.
3. Cell phones. (With GPS and remote mic/camera activation, We The People just need to make them mandatory for all, with criminal penalties for taking out the battery.) After you've been jailed three times for forgetting to carry your "phone", you get mandatory RFID implants, (for your own protection) if those aren't already universally adopted as well.
4. Saturate our urban areas with CCTV cameras, and shotgun mics with robot tracking.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
I'm going to build motorized, retractable cover for my front license plate if this system is implimented. Fuck that.
My Prius has a rear view mirror that dims depending on how much light it's receiving. There is a sensor on it. Put your finger over the sensor and it thinks it's night out and the mirror dims.
Maybe we could make something like that to cover the plates? Some sort of electronic dimming glass. Or maybe a large blank LCD that you could toggle with a switch.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
posted anonymously for obvious reasons.
well shit.
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"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
Drive around with an Obama, Mccain, Biden, Palin latex mask on. Then if you get one of those "photo" tickets just tell them it wasn't you and don't know who it was. Tell them you leave your car in your driveway unlocked with the keys in it for your convienience - it makes it easier on you when you want to go somewhere. Tell them anyone could have "borrowed" your car. Put the burden of proof back on THEM.
The Truth is a Virus!!!
amber alerts are BS...
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/07/20/abducted/
It's getting to the point where I don't think "we need to stop this guy", instead it's "we need to help this guy".
More and more, it appears that police and prosecutors need something:
Extreme mental help. Locked away, extensive questioning and medication.
Either they don't have a firm grip on reality; or they do. and they're squeezing too tight, and it can't breathe.
Can't find the link, but I remember reading a few months ago about BAC monitors/interlocks installed in all new cars within the next 4 to 8 years; effort lead by Toyota... sooner or later, just like airbags, it'll be required.
Use of private companies to enforce the law is illegal, and if it actually now isn't recognized as such, then it needs to be declared fiercely, illegal.
We the people need less restrictions, not more. I'm not doing anything wrong, what is wrong with you that you think you need to track me?
I suspect that increasing enforcement of camera-recorded traffic crimes will be highly correlated with an increase in camera vandalism and cable cutting. Europe is already seeing this kind of reaction.
...time to start shooting back yet? My trigger finger is getting itchy. My uncle didn't free the world from Nazis and Fascists to have them track and code us here at home.
...you believe that gentleman of questionable heritage?
Cops don't entertain those kinds of semi-logical arguments. You do what they ask, or they quickly get "impatient".
Many tires manufacturers embed serialized RFID sensors and that data is already being tracked as an "experiment" and for "purely statistical" purposes. Your browser is embedded with a unique ID number. Your other apps are embedded with unique IDs that seep into the obvious and inobvious meta-data on the documents you produce and "touch". The technocrati walk around with pocketfuls of gadgets that broadcast various data that is easily collected for corrolative retrieval. Your online habits are collected and analyzed by industry and goverments (US doesnt have a monopoly on online spying). There is no privacy and there is no spoon.
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
The IR-emitting diodes (LEDs) used for Sunglasses that hide your face from cameras (as blogged by Bruce Schneier in July) could easily be applied to your license plates for the same effect.
The legality of such things is another question altogether; it could be a circumvention device for traffic/toll cameras, possibly falling into DMCA territory, but to my knowledge, only blue lights and blinking lights are at all regulated ... in fact, you're required to have your plates lit up - why not make it a light that is more intense to the infrared spectrum?.
Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
Maybe that shouldn't be in their care to begin with? I'm not so sure you could make the argument that it's "their" data anyhow. The point I was making was to put an impartial gatekeeper in the way who does not answer to the same person as those using the system. That article is a perfect example of a tool or system being wrong. To use a car example, people cut off other people and cause accidents because of abuse of the "lanes" system on roads. Should we only have one lane roads then? After all, people just abuse it and don't follow the rules. Extortion is illegal, plain and simple. If the men frequenting the gay bars were not so ashamed about being there, it would not have worked anyhow. My point is that if you are going somewhere in public, there will be witnesses. With this system, it just happens that the "witness" has perfect memory.
Ha, in the Netherlands big brother is watching you: In a few years every car must be equipped with a gps-tracking device wich has a live dataconnection with the government... :-(
Reason for this is to let you pay for every mile you drive. Price is depending on place and time.
But of course in the future this system can be used for everything you can think of.
You'll need a set of wheels as well once we all have the new mandatory "MAC address" things built in.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
cause many people to realize a great new use for paintball guns.
Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
If you're one of those "reasonable" people who, when discussing these sorts of cameras, pooh-poohed other people's claims that they'd be used for this purpose, calling them "paranoid" and accusing them of seeing black helicopters or some such, please accept this on behalf of all us paranoid types everywhere
WE TOLD YOU SO, ASSHOLE!
(And if you're interested, tinfoil hat fitting is down the hall and to the right. Remember, shiny side out)
At least in some provinces. I moved to Ontario from BC. It's more of a rat-race where I live now, but one of the nice things is that the police here are investigated by a special unit which has very strict rules about non-bias. They're not part of the police department, they're not allowed to associate with depts they may be investigating, and when one is called in they're generally pulled from out-of-area.
In BC (and apparently Alberta), such investigations are in fact internal, and as such a lot of shit tends to pass that shouldn't.
One of note that always brings a chill down my spine is the Ian Bush case. See here, here, and here/ /here. Also note that the blood-spatter expert who testified against the police was later disciplined on "unrelated matters"
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/21/2332252&mode=nested&tid=158
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
CameraFraud.com is actively (legally) working to take down the cameras in Arizona because they are just there to generate revenue, not for any safety reasons. Come join the protest tomorrow, Sept 18th at Scottsdale Road and Shea Blvd, 5pm.
we can use paint guns to cloud their vision :)
fuck that!
The surveillance society is a bad idea and has already gone far enough. The concept of automated policing and assumed guilt with private businesses fining by mail is abhorrent. I should hope the people dodge this future using good legislation or the courts but I'm a pessimist when it comes to Joe public managing his congressman.
But, if the dimwit control freaks manage to slip this into our lives then I'm sure they'll understand the math when $100K smart cameras begin to be wrecked by cheap .308AP at around a dollar a pop and million dollar data centers go up in smoke. If that doesn't work then they will surely listen to the guys prying them out of there safe rooms with HE for a little private discuss and black bag work.
I just feel it in my bones this is just a really bad idea. My inital thought is that any car that has this as standard equipement, I will not buy it.....just plain and simple. If all car have this feature.... well features in car do break... if not they can always be removed.
NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
When We The People speak, and Uncle Adolph answers, we will (with our customary alacrity) retrofit all of our paved roads with the necessary sensors for Total Car Awareness. This is merely redundant, like the placard recognition, as most people have already opted in with their GPS enabled remotely activated personal microphone/cameras. (I have an old phone without camera or GPS, but I don't take the battery out as I am not hiding anything.)
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
They are often in the private impound lots. Some areas (such as Minneapolis, MN) have essentially legalized auto theft, provided it is done by a for-profit impound lot.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
This is SO OLD I'm surprised we even think about it any more.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
I'll just get one of those flipping license plates like Michael Knight had on KITT. That ruled!!!!
Those are legal, right?
There is nothing in any way remotely amusing about this, people. WAKE THE FUCK UP! Our rights are being chipped away every day, and you sheeple are allowing it to happen! We need to CRUSH THIS SHIT NOW! Without mercy or remorse. We need to send a clear message to the lying murderous scumbags responsible, i.e., our government, that this shit just won't fly. Period. It's bad enough that in places such as where I live, police threaten accident victims with violence (this happened to me personally after being a victim of a hit and run), and pull over females in order to coerce them into exposing themselves in order to get out of a trumped up ticket (this happened to my daughter). We certainly don't need to hand them an excuse, and the ability, to make things worse. We need to be able to control and regulate these fuckers before we're all in camps. Don't believe me? TAKE A LOOK AROUND! Personally, anyone who allows themselves to be brainwashed into allowing this crap, and those who just sit on their ass making jokes about it, are just as guilty as those who actively promote it, and should suffer severe punishments in the name of liberty, for they do not deserve even the illusion of 'freedom' that is being so readily destroyed in this country.
So much fuss over an issue of the people revolting against a big brother issue. I recall G.Gordon Liddy on his radio show issuing a call to people to take up their pellet guns and K.O. this breech of our privacy. ,slingshots and potato guns may differ according to your location.LOL
Constitutionally speaking this is validated by our right to keep and bear arms to protect ourselves from a govt. run amok with irrational power. They can be thankful no blood was spilled and they will know their boundaries with us. Of course local laws regarding the brandishing of air rifles
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Ok, I know this comes to a shock for many of you. But the quickest way out of debt, bad physical and mental health is to live closer to work and ride a bike to work and play. Seriously. I gave up my car three years ago, the wife three months ago, never been happier. Ride the Revolution.
Q. What is Calvin's monster snowman called? A. The Torment Of Existence Weighed Against The Horror of Non Being
The technology was originally developed for the post office where envelopes flash by cameras traveling many miles and hour. Some of the same engineering companies sell both systems.
I think they don't want to talk about it weilawei, because it was probably the suspect's cell phone. I don't have the reference at hand, but I read of a case where the suspect's phone was remotely activated by the police and the recorded conversation was introduced in court to secure a conviction.
I feel safer all the time.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
Yeah I know what you mean BJDevil, I lived in Scottsdale, Arizona and had to drive to Tempe everyday down the 101 East. It drove me nuts because every time you went past one of those freeway speeding lights everyone on the freeway does this whole OMG I GOTTA BREAK NOW!!!! thing (People will slow down to 55mph from 65-70mph which is in the speed limit). It just causes traffic to back up even though the city won't admit it on their stupid website.
My biggest concern was the damn flash, I could see the flash coming from the cameras at night over 2 miles away. Being right next to a guy getting flashed is even better, you swear someone just put the sun in front of your eyes just to see how well you can drive while being temporarily blinded.
I am so glad I moved away from there, I get a break from the ridiculous traffic problems they caused.
"They" aren't doing this, YOU are.
You are the government. Go govern your civil servants.
Or you could get the speed limit raised on that stretch of road.
You are, after all, the one doing the voting.
Enforcement varies as well. In the People's Republic of California, front plates are mandatory, but I noticed in Los Angeles, if you're in the right kind of car no plates or tags of any kind are needed. The LAPD LIKE TOTALLY UNDERSTANDS how the scratches you'd get in the bumper from screwing on a license plate would mess up the value of your Maserati Limo.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
Apparently you aren't aware that the FBI mandated legislation such that all tires manufactured in the US have RFID chips in them.
This was done some time ago, and by now, most cars have this.
The OP's premise was quite correct, in that this sensing could be done now, and distinguish your car from other similar models. It's really only a matter of time before this happens.
I swear I just saw Sarah Conner and her son use a terminator to corrupt this system and thwart the creation of SkyNet last week!
"DENIAL"-How an optimist keeps from becoming a pessimist- \ \
A few years ago, I found a plate on the side of the road, in good condition, with no stickers (it was a front plate). I've been keeping it all this time thinking it could come in handy some day. If I ever decide to go nuts, I'll just stick that plate on- should be enough to avoid detection for a short bit. Also, just sticking an "IN TRANSIT" sign up is often enough to avoid getting stopped.
No, REALLY!
Take a bus, wear fitovers and a broad brimmed hat, grow a beard or shave it off, take the battery out of your cell phone, toast your gummermint issued ID's in the microwave long enough to fry the embedded RFID chips.
And line your hat with tinfoil.
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
So what's the average range on a paintball gun, and how long do you think it will take the authorities to clean off every red light sensor in the city?
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
wake up!
Or make a plate reading:
';shutdown;--
Some cities and towns already require bicycle registration. Like Sheboygan: http://www.sheboyganpolice.com/bicycle.htm You may have read about their idea of civil rights here on slashdot
--
blackshot
is on the loose
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
If your car is relatively new, it has the mandatory Tire Pressure Measurement System (TPMS). Wireless, mandatory, unique ID, and you probably have it already. Although it is marketed as a system to help you stay safe and maximize gas mileage by having your tires properly inflated, the real purpose is to track vehicles. Some may disagree with my conclusion, but the real purpose will become obvious soon enough. Either there WILL or WILL NOT be a "TPMS II" with encrypted/rotating ID numbers. My bet is that TPMS gets promoted as a "universal EZ-pass" and the tracking devices spring up like weeds.
So, you're admitting that you saw it, and that you were so astonished that you had to look one more time.
Sounds very familiar.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
- Out here in Phoenix, people think it's a God-given right to go 125+ on the 101 through Scottsdale, right up there with owning a gun and being bailed out of your 80/20-upside-down-ARM. Don't need no stinkin' speed cameras. The first response by many is to put on one of those license plate covers that masks either half of the plate, depending on the angle. Pretty effective. This will make the surveillance plan somewhat more difficult to implement. Of course, the police will appreciate being tasked with ticketing us for having these things installed, seein' as the imgirints have stopped comin' over th' border, dontyaknow.
- I'm not entirely in opposition to this, except for one thing or two. If this is intended to aid in Amber Alert/APB/known bad guy apprehending, well then I would expect the system to track those vehicles that were interesting, ie the ones with plates matching the Amber Alert, or a known felon, or the meth head that just took a liqour store. The rest, I would expect to be discarded, since without a warrant, there isn't really much use for the data, being law-abiding citizens and all.
Somehow, I'm afraid that won't happen.
This isn't Britain. We shouldn't let our police keep a trace of where we go just because they can.
Period.
If this goes live, I may have to get involved in politics again. And so should you. Use it or lose it.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
For those that thought adding red-light cameras were 'innocent' and laughed at us who said it would be expanded to become a basic realtime surveillance too i hope you feel stupid.
And yet people just roll over.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If I followed you, taking pictures and tracking your every movement, that would be stalking.
But if a consortium decides to take pictures and track every movement of a whole *lot* of people, it's a new revenue stream?
Two words: PAINTBALL GUN. Nearly silent, easy to obtain, and prevents cameras from working.
As the US Financial system unwinds into a 1929 horror show, you will suddenly find out how all these loss of freedoms will really be used.
46137
it's gonna do.I hand built frames for the tags on my van & car that shields the tag if you are as little as 1/2 of 1 degree from straight on.Instead,they will photograph a sign that says"Picture this,MOFO!" and gives them a one finger salute.
Geek Hillbilly
There is a suspicious device in the grassy area on MP 32 on I 287 northbound in Basking Ridge, NJ. It consists of a low angle camera (~7 ft. above ground level) connected to a large aluminium enclosure installed within 2 ft. of the shoulder. This needs to be checked out (pun on the Brandenburg doctrine not necessarily intended).
The plate is the nexus. How about license plate frames that read "SUBMISSION AS EVIDENCE INVITES JURY NULLIFICATION"? Since the raw image of the plate is necessary for positive identification, it will have to be submitted as evidence to be viewed by the jury. The prosecution will find it necessary to tamper with the evidence (by cropping the frame out from the image or blurring it so that the plate is legible but the frame is not) so as not to 'contaminate the proceeding'. Upon cross examination, the defense will bring up the issue that the 'evidence' had been tampered by submitting the plate frame. If said frame(s) come(s) up missing, then the state's case becomes more suspicious in the eyes of the jury.
If the prosecution claims that the system automatically edits plate frames from the image, then the details of the image capturing system comes into play.
It's all about creating reasonable doubt. This IANAL bullshark can go to hell. Free speech has been exercised.
Next time someone speaks with a sh(r)ill voice, always remember, there is false peace and safety in the gulag.
I saw that episode awhile ago. I don't remember the specifics, but that episode and many others require cooperation from the police.
Seriously, Mythbusters isn't going to do a show on national television, aided by the police, that describes what license plate accessories will help evade the cops. It just won't happen. Think of the lawsuits. Of course all the accessories didn't work.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Frankly, it's far more simple to simply mandate the installation of a data logger, GPS and communication system in every vehicle. You may think this is impossible, but I would argue that the need to generate use based tax revenue for the use of roadways as fuel efficiency climbs is going to drive many proposals for exactly this. I simply assert that as more of the driving public gets fuel efficient econoboxs there will be a drive from the wealthy to eliminate the gas tax and make it mile based tax because the wealthy will continue to drive low mileage high performance vehicles and they won't want to be stuck paying the most in taxes to support the roadways. The lojack type system will also be driven by law enforcement that would want to use the system in criminal investigations just like they use the toll passes now in investigations. The insurance industry will also support the idea as the loggers could be used in accident investigations to establish the responsibility for the accident and could be used to raise rates on those that speed.
Personally I give it about 10 years and all vehicles will be mandated to have a GPS, data logger and reporting system installed. The preliminary ground work has already been laid as at least half a dozen states have already proposed per mile taxes instead of per gallon taxes. Civil liberties will likely be at the bottom of the pool as driving is considered a privilege, not a right under US common law.
I for one welcome our new vehicle tracking overlords.
Our tireless defenders are only limited by their algorithms.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
In one city in the U.S. vehicles are already being tracked. Granted it's mostly for the sake of academic research at this point but that will change eventually.
Basically the entire city is blanketed with cameras at all of the major intersections. These images are sent back to a server farm to be processed in real-time.
The algorithm is pretty neat. It picks the vehicles out of the image and extrapolates the 2D image into 3D -- much like some facial recognition software. Once it has the 3D image it pulls the vehicle's "fingerprint" and uses that to track that vehicle regardless of which angle (within reason) that a camera happens to photograph said vehicle.
With all of the camera coverage the system can essentially follow a given vehicle anywhere in the city. Currently the system can fingerprint roughly 10,000 vehicles per second and is about 90% accurate.
Obviously there are issues with identical makes & models of vehicles. But they're making good progress and it will only get more and more sophisticated.
It's better than using license plates or GPS because those can be obscured or disabled. You really have very few practical options to avoid being tracked in this system.
Stupider like a fox! - H.S.
Just use a spray that causes your plate to look too bright http://www.phantomplate.com/
The Police in Sydney Australia can track cars using Automatic Number Plate recognition. They are able to use Red light cameras, speed cameras, the cameras on the freeway to monitor traffic. Since all the cameras are now digital and the images are sent to central servers it is easy to add number plate recognition software.
The Police also have a patrol car mounted camera that automatically scan the number plates of all the cars that pass by and checks to see if any are wanted or have outstanding warrants. If they are wanted then the system informs the officer.
Lets all complain to each other our dislike for such policy because we all know that will solve the problem... We need to stop sitting idly by as we let these laws and policies continue to trample on our civil liberties and stop complaining to each other about when the people we need to complain to is the very politicians who are making these ridiculous rules. Write your senator and write your representative you are their constituent and if they want another year of making up ridiculous things then they need your approval. The vote for the puppet is not as important as the vote for the puppeteer, you need to vote where it counts, by voting for who sits in congress and speaks for you.
I second that. Scottsdale used to be bad about setting up speed traps at the foot of the Papgo Buttes, knowing full well that most drivers aren't conscious of the gravity boost their speed got until it was too late, or that they couldn't slow down fast enough, depending on where the trap was set up. I got nailed on McDowell Road at one of these traps, albeit by a human cop (who apparently felt the need to have a second squad car follow along to ... I don't know, intimidate me or something).
Another couple times, I was nailed by photo radar vans, usually set up on stretches of road where no residences or businesses are -- in other words, areas where people are likely to speed because there is no danger to doing so. It got bad enough at one point that I refused to drive through or into Scottsdale for a couple months, simply because I couldn't deal with the feelings of paranoia it induced.
The 101 loop through Scottsdale, though, is a whole other animal -- stationary cameras that are permanently affixed. The slow-down and speed-up cycle of traffic is maddening. People will crawl along below the speed limit when they know there are cameras around, and then speed up way over the posted limit in between. It's ridiculous and infantile behavior on the part of the drivers, brought about by the nanny state city government treating us like children. Since photo ticket revenues have been drying up, the cities have been quietly lowering the threshold at which the cameras operate -- it used to be 11 mph over the limit, now it's 5 or 6.
When I took a recent defensive driving class, I was one of about 20 people -- roughly half the class -- who were nailed upon a particular stretch of road, Rural Road in Tempe. The instructor treated it as almost a joke, and at one point mentioned that he's all but stopped traveling that road simply to avoid the situation. They apparently lowered the speed limit to 35 mph due to the proximity to ASU, something I had not been aware of at the time of the infraction.
Now, whenever I need to drive along Rural Road, I immediately get paranoid whenever I see a flash. Check the speedometer -- whew, I'm doing 35, must be some other poor sap. But it's still jarring to my nerves.
and yet a cop following you all day in public is harrassment
Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
what if you just had lots of fake license plates or numbers all around your real one
or fake enough that a person would know the difference but a computer would see all kinds of numbers
To gain public acceptance, the surveillance program is being initially sold as an aid for police looking to solve Amber Alert cases and locate stolen cars."
I think the public should be able to have their cake and eat it too.
If something is sold to the public on a premise; it should be the sole allowed use.
I.E. There should be some mechanism for the government to preclude itself from doing something further with it later, and people should demand that it be vigorously done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_character_recognition
Out of curiosity, would it be possible to modify your plate using natural means (slamming a letter with a rock) or modifying the plate such that a human would still be able to determine what it is but the software becomes broken?
For example, a material that's picked up by the software but virtually unnoticeable to humans from a distance?
Seems to me like relying on technology can only get you so far in a realm with countless finite possibilities.
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/08/amber_alerts_as.html
"In the first independent study of whether Amber Alerts work, a team led by University of Nevada criminologist Timothy Griffin looked at hundreds of abduction cases between 2003 and 2006 and found that Amber Alerts -- for all their urgency and drama -- actually accomplish little. In most cases where they were issued, Griffin found, Amber Alerts played no role in the eventual return of abducted children. Their successes were generally in child custody fights that didn't pose a risk to the child. And in those rare instances where kidnappers did intend to rape or kill the child, Amber Alerts usually failed to save lives."
My new (self-reprinted) license plate will be a captcha. OCR that, pigs!
Here in the UK ANPR is commonplace, what with us being the most heavily filmed and photographed nation on the face of the planet.
ANPR is tied to both the DVLA (DMV to you) and the national database of insurers, so whenever you pass an ANPR camera they can tell in a split second who you are, if your car is taxed, if it has an MOT (warrent of roadworthynes) and if it is insured. The police use this on a daily basis to do little more than catch petty criminals for the purposes of making up crime numbers. Its yet another method of stop and search.
Soon you'll also get the cctv with face and voice recognition. Fun time ahead.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Is it now? Do you have case law on that?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
"repeated, intrusive or unwanted acts, words or gestures that are intended to adversely affect the safety, security or privacy of another, regardless of the relationship between the actor and the intended target." (M.S. Â 609.749, Subd. I) Criminal harassment is defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim. (M.S. Â 609.749, Subd. I). Such conduct can include following or pursuing you, returning to your property without your consent, making repeated phone calls, inducing you to make calls, causing your phone to repeatedly ring, repeatedly mailing or delivering unwanted letters, objects, or gifts to you. While it is a nightmare to prove there are laws on the books governing such behavior.
Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
Here's one candidate for state legislature who would oppose using red-light cameras for surveillance: http://jan2008.org/2008/09/21/surveillance-society-no-thanks/