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Spore the Most Pirated Game of 2008

TorrentFreak has posted some statistics on the most pirated games of the past year. Leading the list by a large margin is Spore, made infamous even before its release for the draconian DRM attached to the game. It was downloaded through BitTorrent roughly 1.7 million times, with The Sims 2 and Assassin's Creed following at just over a million each. (It's worth noting that Spore came out in September, so that figure is essentially for a mere three months.) GameSetWatch has posted a related piece discussing the countermeasures involved in dealing with piracy. It's the second article in a series about piracy; we discussed the first a couple days ago.

404 comments

  1. Because of the DRM by Lord+Lode · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Maybe that is because of the DRM, even if you buy the game, you still have to pirate it to be able to play a clean version (clean meaning without DRM restrictions of course).

    1. Re:Because of the DRM by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yep. I'm included in that statistic, despite buying the game. Downloaded the game when it first appeared, but waited until release day to actually install from my retail version, then use the crack from the pirated version.

      Given what a letdown the game was, I should have installed the pirated version earlier and seen it wasn't worth the $50 and just deleted it.

      Ah well.

    2. Re:Because of the DRM by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Its because of the Marketing blitz.
      Everywhere I look its Spore this, Spore that. You'd have mushrooms in your ears to miss hearing about it.
      OF COURSE people are going to think: "Whats all the hype about - not like MARKETING has LIED to me before so I'll take a free no-obligation look-see for myself."
      Some %, possibly significant, of those downloaders are going to perhaps like it and/or will want to play online, so they will sign up for valid copies. These people are new clients - they would not of bought the game otherwise.
      Now the hardliners-stuck in the 80's software model will cry "these numbers will destroy the game industry". Bollocks. They are getting 1.X million potential clients who would never have bother buying the game to see if it was worth the hype in the first place.

      News flash: Bittorent downloads will reflect real world marketing promotion.

    3. Re:Because of the DRM by kentrel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your data to prove this hypothesis?

    4. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Thanks for killing the games industry, you filthy thief.

    5. Re:Because of the DRM by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Can go one better: The weight of evidence is in the real world sales: http://torrentfreak.com/alchemist-author-pirates-own-books-080124/
      http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/08/pirates-convince-game-develope.html
      The weight of real-world evidence is in favor of the hypothesis posted above. The only anti-hypothesis you've got is 1 Pirate == 1 lost sale. *cough* Your data prove your hypothesis?*cough**cough*

    6. Re:Because of the DRM by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 1

      P.S. Fast forward one year. News Title: "Spore the Most Successful Game of 2009". If its worthy of the hype. Mark my words.

    7. Re:Because of the DRM by LKM · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes. Who would have thought that people would pirate the game if the version they can buy is broken by design!

      It boggles the mind.

    8. Re:Because of the DRM by SerpentMage · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I got another one to prove otherwise.

      Bruce Eckel for a while released his books for free. And initially things went very well. But then things went downhill because people would end up NOT buying his books. They would have read his books, but not bought them.

      Now Bruce is not making the later editions for free anymore. Why? I can only surmise that it did not work out. I once asked him and he said, "oh yeah that it was an interesting experiment."

      I know Bruce personally and he is not a money freak. He is a very nice guy. He is in fact somebody who likes Open Source, etc. But I know he also has to feed himself and I wonder if sales did end up going down...

      It actually disappoints me because Bruce was very willing and wanted to help the community. But the community let him down...

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    9. Re:Because of the DRM by fastest+fascist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It'd be nice to see stats on sales versus stats on piracy for some recent top titles. Unfortunately, AFAIK, it's difficult to get stats from legal digital distributors.

    10. Re:Because of the DRM by HadouKen24 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem, perhaps, is in the kind of work he tried to make free. The evidence seems to point toward entertainment products being benefited by piracy. Not books on programming or other technical non-fiction. These are two very different kinds of products used in very different ways. One should not assume that trends in one should be a good indication of trends in the other.

    11. Re:Because of the DRM by LingNoi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I had to pirate the game after buying it in Thailand (I live there) because EA support refused to give me the English language (1.3 meg of files)

      Dear *******,

      Sorry for the inconvenience, but Spore Thai retail version support only Thai language as indicate on the package. And there's no English text file include in the build.

      The only way to get English build in Thailand is to buy the game at i27 http://www.i27games.com/?cat=pcg

      Kindly let us know if you need more info.

      Best Regards,
      EA Thailand Support

      ....

      Dear EA Thailand Support,

      You are right, that's very inconvenient and can't believe you are telling me to go buy this game twice for just 3 files that total up to
      1 Megabyte.

      You have left me no choice but to download the game off the internet and get the three files in need to put into the "Locale" folder. I
      find it frustrating that I have to pirate EA games I have bought to be able to play them.

      I hope that in the future you will provide a better service to your customers that are buying your products instead of leaving it up to
      internet pirates to provide support for your games.

      Regards,
      ******

      .....

      Dear *******,

      All AAA EA titles in Thailand are localized to Thai language. All are locked preventing user to change the language. We have this language switching protection to prevent our goods being export to other territories due to the cheaper price on Thai products. As for Spore, retail price in Thailand is only £8.5, while you have to pay for £35 in UK.

      We also aware that people can get the locale file from the internet. But it is against our policy to provide you the locale files from our side.

      We hope you understand and sorry again for the inconvenience.

      Best Regards,
      EA Thailand Support

      and why the fuck should I care if it's more expensive in the UK if I don't live there? In fact why do they mention the UK at all?

      WHY RESPOND! I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHY YOUR FUCKING ME OVER FOR THREE FILES!!!

    12. Re:Because of the DRM by loonycyborg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Whoosh!

    13. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd have mushrooms in your ears to miss hearing about it.

      Oi! You insensitive clod!

    14. Re:Because of the DRM by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Umm... because they're a company and don't give a rat's rear about you?

      Let's calculate. One customer pissed off vs. thousands of cheap "imports" from countries where you couldn't charge 35 quid for a game because copying rates are already higher than the US national debt.

      Now imagine you're a company and think accordingly.

      Yes, it sucks for you. And don't get me wrong, I'm neither berating you nor taking EA's side here, but that's how it looks for them. You're one customer who already bought the game anyway, and it's not an MMO where they could squeeze any more money out of you.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    15. Re:Because of the DRM by tchiseen · · Score: 1

      The game was rubbish though, so you can't put ALL the blame on GPants for killing the games industry, some of it has to go to EA.

    16. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would be the games industry that has year on year growth and is now larger than the movie industry?

    17. Re:Because of the DRM by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Bingo.

      Not saying some weren't 'regular IP infringement' ( i wont use the marketing term 'piracy' ) i personally know a lot of people that own a copy did it due to the DRM

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    18. Re:Because of the DRM by Lord+Lode · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hey, you actually got a very nice reply from EA Thailand explaining you why they didn't provide the English locale there. Someone actually read your mail and manually typed a reply explaining the situation, and quite honest too. No auto-generated mail. This gets my respect.

    19. Re:Because of the DRM by Samah · · Score: 1

      they would not HAVE bought the game otherwise.

      Fixed that for you.

      Apart from that, I agree with most of what you said. Unless it's a game I'm pretty sure is going to be good anyway, I'll download it first and play for a bit. If I like it, I buy it. If not, it gets deleted.

      --
      Homonyms are fun!
      You're driving your car, but they're riding their bikes there.
    20. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With some of the craptastic games we've had this year.

      It's a mercy killing.

      captcha:stagnant

    21. Re:Because of the DRM by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 1

      Spore was $50 in the US!?
      ffs, EA wanted 60 euros in the Netherlands, which is a 50% markup.

    22. Re:Because of the DRM by canajin56 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Given what a letdown the game was, I should have installed the pirated version earlier and seen it wasn't worth the $50 and just deleted it.

      This. And now they're charging $20-50 for monthly expansions. Sims style. You know it's intentionally awful when it comes out mid september, and by october they've announced an add-on pack and two expansion packs for sale. I think in $300-500 it'll actually almost have a game. It still won't have evolution or ecology or a sandbox mode or AI like promised, but might actually have a game, and maybe even some of the features they demod at E3, like the plant and pattern editors, and communicating with other species... (No actually, not the first two, then they couldn't charge $20 for a pattern pack like they do now, or however much they'll charge for the first plant pack!)

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    23. Re:Because of the DRM by Draek · · Score: 1

      The problem is that if we accept that argument, we can apply it in reverse too: what's one lost customer among hundreds of thousands of people copying the game already? let's go to TPB, better customer support, and cheaper to boot.

      "The customer is always right" is a good policy for a business to follow, specially when they're going against a 'free' (if not entirely legit) alternative.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    24. Re:Because of the DRM by theaveng · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Precisely.

      Everyone always gets hyped around November 4th and other election days, but they forget that EVERY DAY is an election day. Your ballots are your dollars, and by not handing those dollars to companies like EA Thailand or EA-EU or EA-USA, you are slowly but surely driving that company into bankruptcy.

      But if you go ahead and "vote" for them, then all you've done is said, "I support you; keep up the good work." You never should have bought that Thai-only game if you wanted an English language version. You should have withheld your "ballots" and kept your money in your wallet, or given it to another company.

      Casting votes for or against corporations is the most-direct form of democracy we have.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    25. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thing is it's these stupid reasons I personally have a problem with...

      "because of piracy....."

      "because of cheap imports...."

      I DON'T CARE, I BOUGHT the game. So why do they always lecture customers about this shit?

      EA! We don't care why you're adding DRM, the fact that you're doing it is the problem!!

      Next time EA comments on DRM or something like this look for these lines they always use. It's purely stupid.

      Then they don't understand why people don't bother buying the game and just download it from the internet LOL, fucking idiots!

    26. Re:Because of the DRM by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 1

      > Now Bruce is not making the later editions for free anymore.
      > Why? I can only surmise that it did not work out. I once asked him and he said, "oh yeah that it was an interesting experiment."

      There is another, IMO more valid explanation: Mr Eckel built up considerable fame for his books, despite being just one more reference in a forest of better presented and marketed than his own, because they were freely "pirateble".
      Now once Mr Eckel had established his niche in the market and built the following to "sustainable numbers" - he could take his next versions all closed pay per read/traditional model and reap financial benefits - at least over the short term until the momentum of their original free-status popularity declines. Good on him, a viable strategy that may work in some cases, but it is defiantly in no way an indication against the benefits open-free model - which launched his books into the limelight in the first place.

      This is not a new concept. One Reference of a few out there:

      Competition Over Piratable Goods
      July 2004
      Abstract:
      The effects of (private, small-scale) copying on the pricing behavior of producers of information goods are studied within a unified model of vertical diÂerentiation. Although information goods are assumed to be perfectly horizontally differentiated, demands are interdependent because the copying technology exhibits increasing returns to scale. We characterize the symmetric Nash equilibria of the pricing game played by n producers of information goods. We show thereby how the producersÂ' attitudes towards piracy are interdependent and evolve with the relative attractiveness of copies.

      Keywords: Information goods, piracy, copyright, pricing

      JEL Classifications: L13, L82, L86, K11, O34
      Working Paper Series

      http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=882804

    27. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He bought the game but he does not want to labor his system with SecuROM or install restrictions, he actually has supported the game industry, you filthy idiot.

    28. Re:Because of the DRM by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they responded with bullshit..

      "Language locked"?

      What crap, they said that after I had already downloaded the whole 3 Gig iso for just 1 meg. Damn annoying but all I did was put the files in and it worked, proving that all they have done is waste my time and piss me off. Then they try to convince me it won't work after I already did it? Morons..

      You obviously didn't notice this but they assumed that because I can't understand the Thai language that I should have to pay more money for another version, even though EA support Thailand probably makes more money then me.

      "£8.5, while you have to pay for £35 in UK."

      I have no idea why they're talking about the UK as I never mentioned I am from England. This is typical Thai behaviour, rip off the white guy.

      You might not think this is a big deal, but for me it is. I am tired of getting charged high prices because of my skin color. When I buy a game from an international company I at least expect them not to say the equivalent of "You, white guy, go buy more expensive version".

    29. Re:Because of the DRM by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      You're welcome! I'll keep it up!

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    30. Re:Because of the DRM by popeye44 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well you can always just pirate those addons up until you feel you have gotten your moneys worth :-]

      --
      Inane Comments are Generously Disregarded
    31. Re:Because of the DRM by MouseR · · Score: 1

      What good does it do to use the pirated version if you bought the game in the first place??

    32. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They bring up the UK so that you understand that if the English language file was freely available, you could buy 1000 copies at thai prices, glue a sheet of paper on each explaining how to get the English language file, ship them to the UK and sell them at a profit there.

      It's not about your skin color, it's about your (lack of) knowledge of thai.

    33. Re:Because of the DRM by Feanturi · · Score: 1

      Not having to dig out the stupid disc and put it in the drive (and risking a scratch) every time I want to switch to a different game is an awesome reason to use cracks or mounted images for games I have bought. I don't know about you but I don't play only one game every day until I'm sick of it and never play it again, I rotate among several. Each of these games is cracked even though I paid for it, because then I can just launch it and go. Not to mention increased performance in many cases -- that alone should persuade anyone that does play only one game at a time.

    34. Re:Because of the DRM by Morth · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I only paid about 50 â (euro, slashdot needs an upgrade) for my downloaded copy, and that includes our (outrageous) 25 % VAT in Sweden.

      I agree the game was not that great though.

    35. Re:Because of the DRM by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I got another one to prove otherwise.

      Bruce Eckel for a while released his books for free. And initially things went very well. But then things went downhill because people would end up NOT buying his books.

      Cite?

      They would have read his books, but not bought them.

      I only heard of Thinking in C++ because of the buzz about it being free. I read it online and liked it. I bought two copies on paper, one for work, one for home. My anecdote beats your unfounded speculation, 0 data points to 1.

      Now Bruce is not making the later editions for free anymore. Why? I can only surmise that it did not work out.

      Ah yes, the incontrovertible proof that comes from idle speculation.

      I once asked him and he said, "oh yeah that it was an interesting experiment."

      That answer is pretty evasive. Sounds equally likely that he could either be disappointed in the sales, or uncomfortable acknowledging he used the Open Source/"FREE STUFF!" model to make a name for himself. It's a perfectly valid strategy, but the FOSS crowd can have some freaky folks, and he might very well be concerned about being labeled a "sellout"...

      I know Bruce personally and he is not a money freak. He is a very nice guy. He is in fact somebody who likes Open Source, etc. But I know he also has to feed himself and I wonder if sales did end up going down...

      If the freebies are depriving him of sales, why does he still maintain a list of places where you can download the stuff on his web site? Again, you offer nothing but idle speculation.

      It actually disappoints me because Bruce was very willing and wanted to help the community. But the community let him down...

      Conclusion not supported by evidence. You're claiming to know Bruce's motivations with nothing to go on but a very evasive answer from him.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    36. Re:Because of the DRM by gilgongo · · Score: 1

      It actually disappoints me because Bruce was very willing and wanted to help the community. But the community let him down...

      Of course, there is the possibility that his work just wasn't very good. That's something that often gets overlooked in the whole "giving it away for nothing is stupid" argument. Having a conventional contract with a publisher simply shifts the risk off to them, but basically, if you ain't got it - well, you won't get it.

      Just sayin'

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    37. Re:Because of the DRM by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      This is an old problem with hardware and software. They're not looking at it as 'what is the single right price'. They're looking at it as 'People will pay the full price for these features: will they pay less for software without some of these features, and still get us a sale that makes some money or protects our market from competition there? Then sell it without those features for that lower price, and lock it that way so we don't lose sales to our cheaper version.'

      This is old, standard behavior for hardware designers as well, as CPU overclockers will confirm for you over at www.tomshardware.com. It's intrinsic to this whole 'region' encoding nonsense with video DVD's as well: they're segmenting the market into those who can afford and will pay more, namely the English speaking world, and the other markets.

    38. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The PC gaming industry specifically. I wouldn't be surprised if all this Securom BS is a deliberate attempt by the powers that be (Microsoft perhaps) to kill off what remains of the PC gaming industry. Makes sense I guess, since consoles are easier to work with for them (from a development standpoint because everyone is using the same hardware, and from a DRM standpoint since it takes a decent bit more effort to successfully pirate a console game).

    39. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for killing the games industry, you filthy thief.

      No it is you that is killing the games industry. Wiping out independant talent by supporting faceless international gaming corporations. When this giant corporate machine is destroyed we will finally see gameplay and intelligence return to the industry to replace profiteering and lowest common denominator gameplay.
      Support independant games. Pirate the corporations out of business.

    40. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they would not of bought the game otherwise

      have. HAVE. not 'of'. you say "would've" as a conjunction of 'would have', it is not 'would of' even if it sounds like that.

    41. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would only work if the spore version the op bought was different. It's the exact the same software, with the same features just the languages taken out.

      This is more like a black guy walking into a games store and the clerk saying it'll cost you an extra 50 dollars because you're black. The only difference is they're doing it with languages.

    42. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find your lack of thai disturbing.

    43. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know the state of customer support when a totally unhelpful though manually typed response is enough to invoke respect.

    44. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's like a black guy walking into a pharmacy and the clerk saying that they don't stock black-colored band-aids. He is free to buy a pink colored one. It's only if he really insists on a black-colored one that he has to order it from elsewhere (and pay more).

    45. Re:Because of the DRM by Pax681 · · Score: 1

      maybe he doesn't give them away for free because he has now built up a fan base willing to buy his works?

      it's a bit like the New model Army song about drug dealers

      " tell you what i'll give you your first one free,

      and when you want some more then you come back to me"...........

    46. Re:Because of the DRM by pacinpm · · Score: 1

      Umm... because they're a company and don't give a rat's rear about you?

      Let's calculate. One customer pissed off vs. thousands of cheap "imports" from countries where you couldn't charge 35 quid for a game because copying rates are already higher than the US national debt.

      They sell it for cheap in Thailand so obviously they still earn money from it. So basicly they are ripping off UK customers.

      They could sell this game in UK for Thailand price and still earn money. Maybe even more because people who don't buy games for 50 pounds will buy them for 5 pounds. And those who can afford 50 pounds for gaming could buy 10 games instead of one.

    47. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Said the consumers to EA.

    48. Re:Because of the DRM by Fallingcow · · Score: 1

      That's what my wife and I do with The Sims. She loves the game and wants the new stuff, but I'm not about to shell out $30 for a few textures and some minor features that probably should have been in the original game, especially given how obvious it is that they spend very, very little coding these games (look at the loading time and performance for proof of this--both are horrible, worse than many games with more and larger textures and far better graphical effects)

      So, we buy the original game and pirate most of the rest. Sometimes we'll buy the ones that add quite a bit as far as game play, but we never, ever pay for the "Holiday Funiture Pack!" bullshit.

    49. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How exactly does it "help the community" to give something away "for free", but only on the condition that people pay for it anyway? Sounds to me more like a publicity stunt that backfired.

      Also: Captcha was "lending." The irony...

    50. Re:Because of the DRM by 3vi1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      If someone's polite as to why they won't comply with your very reasonable request for help, that gets your respect?

      You: "Excuse me, but would you switch seats with me so that my wife and I can sit together?"

      Me: "I'm sorry but it's my policy not to switch seats, because your seat was paid for with Euros and mine with dollars."

      You: "GOD DAMN! I RESPECT THAT!"

    51. Re:Because of the DRM by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Informative

      Erh... no.

      To take a trip into economy, what you're dealing with is fixed vs. variable expenses. I.e. basic cost to create the ability to create an item, and the cost per item. When you take a piece of furniture, the fixed cost part would be what designing the table costs, while the wood, screws and workforce needed to assemble it would be the variable part.

      The tricky part is now that every table has to cover for part of your fixed costs. You split them amongst the units you create and plan to sell and add that to the manufacturing cost. If you only charge what manufacturing the table costs, you lose money due to the fixed part of your expenses.

      When dealing with software (or content in general) you have an extreme bias towards fixed costs. It costs a ton of money to create a piece of software altogether, while reproducing it costs nearly nothing. If you only sold a single copy of your game, you'd have to charge millions to break even. On the other hand, every copy sold adds to the contribution margin, no matter how small, you just can't sell a single copy at a loss when only looking at the expenses per item.

      When you now globally sell your games for 5 bucks, you'd have to sell about ten times the copies to break even. If you cannot break even, your company goes belly up soon.

      It's easy to get a profit contribution out of a single copy. Sell it for a buck and you're there already. You will never recover your development costs that way, though.

      So the goal is to sell as many copies as possible for the highest price possible. This is dictated by the market, though. You cannot sell a single copy in Thailand for 50 bucks. So you sell it for 5. The alternative would be to abstain from selling there altogether and instead increasing the prices in the UK.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    52. Re:Because of the DRM by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 3, Informative

      How am I killing the industry by BUYING the fucking game? Really, did any of you even READ my post? I said I grabbed the pirate version but didn't install it, choosing to wait for the retail release, then installed from that, and used the crack to avoid the Securom crap.

      So please explain how that is me "killing the games industry".

    53. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I downloaded Spore after hearing all the hype. I more than exceeded the system requirements, but it often ran at 10-15 fps, and after about 2 hours of playing I realized it wasn't any fun at all. I uninstalled it, and I'm glad I didn't pay for it originally.

    54. Re:Because of the DRM by kentrel · · Score: 1

      Neither of those links actually prove your hypothesis or provide any data. They're news articles and are only reporting that two authors\publishers are trying something new to promote and sell their work. It doesn't support your assertion that piracy adds significant real world sales and it doesn't indicate that that those authors\publishers were actually more successful because of that.

    55. Re:Because of the DRM by DMalic · · Score: 1

      That's the sort of thinking that has gotten media corps the current waves of piracy (screw our customers every time we can get away with it). While this isn't the same as the exploding gas tank recall snafu, it's the same thinking behind it. However, it's a flawed policy for the following reason: People who get screwed tell their friends. Hardcore anti-pirates have been slowly driven to support piracy, one by one. It's a bit hard to fight the pirates when most of geekdom supports them.

    56. Re:Because of the DRM by DMalic · · Score: 1

      A. Comes with no-CD crack (don't need to find and switch CDs to play, game loads faster) B. Avoids region authentication (can play your game wherever you want) C. No Securom/equivalent (avoids install limits, re-enables utilities Securom doesn't like such as Daemontools..) D. Safer (no random DRM crap permanently embedded into your computer)

    57. Re:Because of the DRM by Toonol · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Two areas are being conflated. The PC Games industry is the one committing slow suicide. Consoles are going strong. I think the problem with PC games is that publishers are trying to be force them into the same model as consoles, and it simply doesn't fit.

    58. Re:Because of the DRM by morcego · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know you were joking, but I find your comments a good hook to hang my own.

      About a month ago, Blizzard released the 2nd expansion back for World of Warcraft. On the same day, it was also available for download .... from Blizzard. Considering I live in a country where you can't find anything warcraft for sale, that is what allowed me to get the game (I asked an USA buddy to buy an extra copy, and send me the cdkey).

      When I open my cabinet, I see a lot of old game boxes. And then I noticed that pretty much all the game I've got on the past 3 years (maybe 4?) were either torrent downloads (piracy, yeah), or buy&download (NWN2, NWN2:MotB, WoW, WoW:BC, WoW:WotLK and a few others). And my internet connection is nowhere as good/fast as that of most readers here (took me almost 3 days to download WoW + WoW:BC).

      I really have to question how much of all this piracy is not due to price, but due to how easy it is to get the games online. I will pirate any games I can't buy&download online. If I can buy online and download, I will pay for it.

      I understand all the DRM and price issues, but I have to wonder how much of the problem that is, when compared to the whole search+search+search+pray+search+search+maybe_finding_it_on_a_store issue. Specially for people outside the USA. Most people don't care about DRM. And people will pay through their noses for a good video card, memory, monitor etc (so money is not an issue there).

      My special thanks to all companies selling games online. You are the guys that will see my money.

      --
      morcego
    59. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "they would not HAVE bought" - not OF!!!

      It's "he would HAVE done it" not "he would OF done it".

      Jesus H Fucking Christ. 99% of the posters on the internet keep putting "OF"!!! Idiots!

    60. Re:Because of the DRM by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      That's the point. by buying the game you're letting the terrorists.... err.... pirate win.

      The best thing to do is to not buy it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    61. Re:Because of the DRM by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Mod this up to +8!

      FACT: A company you deal with does NOT give a RATS ASS about you as a customer. If they got your money, they dont care one bit. This is how all corporations work. customers are a nuisance.

      Comcast and AT&T for example. They go out of their way to make sure as a customer you are treated with as little help as possible. Outages will not get you any refunds unless you bitch to high hell AND are a high level customer. you are a bother to them. and in comcast's case they firmly believe that you cant switch away and in most places they are right.

      They are the only high speed internet in town and the only cable tv in town. Yes mister customer you can stuff it in your rear because you cant switch to our competition. We DARE you to disconnect your service.

      Oh you did disconnect? we'll be out there in the next few weeks to disconnect... until that day we'll keep charging you.

      If anyone has the biszzare idea that corperations are fair and honest, they really need a slap in the face with reality.

      All corperations HATE you. they want your money, but they utterly despise and HATE you. It's in their business plan.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    62. Re:Because of the DRM by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Neither of those links actually prove your hypothesis or provide any data. They're news articles and are only reporting that two authors\publishers are trying something new to promote and sell their work.

      I suspect you have motivation to not want to see any real world figures? I gave you good references that do lead to real world sales figures in a number of locations. Here is one below, posted by the Author, who should know. Also see research article in my post above, there is more solid evidence out there - despite being shouted down by the majority of corporate media - hell bent against the idea.

      NEW YORK (Fortune) â" In 1999, best-selling author Paulo Coelho, who wrote "The Alchemist," was failing in Russia. That year he sold only about 1,000 books, and his Russian publisher dropped him. But after he found another, Coelho took a radical step. On his own Web site, launched in 1996, he posted a digital Russian copy of "The Alchemist".
      With no additional promotion, print sales picked up immediately. Within a year he sold 10,000 copies; the next year around 100,000. By 2002 he was selling a total of a million copies of multiple titles. Today, Coelho's sales in Russian are over 10 million and growing. ...

      By last year Coelho's total print sales worldwide surpassed 100 million books. "Once we did the Pirate Coelho there was a significant boost," he says.

      For all this, he kept quiet with his many publishers in countries around the world. "Sharing" is typically not the word they use to describe such activities. Coelho says the publishers have periodically taken action to remove books from the Pirate Coelho. "They think it is against me. They don't know it is in my favor. They will know it after your article," he says.

      "Publishing is in a kind of Jurassic age," Coelho continues. "Publishers see free downloads as threatening the sales of the book. But this should make them rethink their entire business model."
      http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2008/02/03/pirate-coelho/

      Your best defense at this point is to claim books are completely different to games. Any data to prove the hypothesis? You would have to have some pretty convincing data, cause at least some professional game developers disagree, with real world data to back their point up (you have been given a reference follow the lead - there are sales figures posted).

      Your turn: Where is the data to even slightly support the idea that one pirated good == one lost sale?**

      ** Quoting *IAA propaganda talking points does not count.

    63. Re:Because of the DRM by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      sounds great. when the game comes out, charge $99.99 for it. as they sell lower the price.

      Oh wait that does not happen until a year later when they have a wearhouse full of a turd game and they blow out the copies to make room for the next new hotness. Nintendo and the others are trying hard to remove that by making the Wii-II only use downloaded content. that eliminates bargian bin games, and decimates the used and rental game market. So that POS game that is crap, will still sell for $49.95 2 years later.

      This is nintendo's grail they are chasing. and honestly if they dont drop it right now, they will go from the #1 game console to last place overnight.

      Software makers DESPERATELY want to eliminate second hand sales and discounted sales. they did it with most PC games by makign the install code locked to installs, try and buy a used copy of half life 2that installs without problems. Now if they can do the same with consoles they can be even happier.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    64. Re:Because of the DRM by syousef · · Score: 1

      Hey, you actually got a very nice reply from EA Thailand explaining you why they didn't provide the English locale there. Someone actually read your mail and manually typed a reply explaining the situation, and quite honest too. No auto-generated mail. This gets my respect.

      Wait a second, being given the silent treatment doesn't get your respect, but being given the finger (ever so nicely and politely) explaining why your arse has been raped, that gets you respect????

      So are you also okay with being robbed at gunpoint, so long as the criminal explains he's trying to feed his family and it's not to support a drug habbit???

      No fucking wonder these assholes are getting away with passing laws that theoretically see you in jail for 5 years for backing up a game. They've managed to brainwash people into accepting this is how it should be!

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    65. Re:Because of the DRM by easyTree · · Score: 2, Funny

      Really, did any of you even READ my post?

      That's not the way things are done around here.. ..and regardless, that comment about you killing the games industry was a joke..

      *whoosh*

      Nice pants btw

    66. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      On the same day, it was also available for download .... from Blizzard.

      No it wasn't. It took at least three days to become available. Not a big deal to a normal person, but the hardcore were very upset.

    67. Re:Because of the DRM by JoCat · · Score: 1

      More anecdotal evidence: I pirated the book 'Computational Geometry: Algorithms and Applications' to see if it was of any use for a project I was working on. (Library copy was stolen, oddly.) After the reading the first chapter and skimming the last couple, I was certain that book was excellent and picked up a copy on Amazon. A paper copy is nice to have and much more portable than a full-tower system.

    68. Re:Because of the DRM by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 0, Troll

      I dont buy software or media. Why?

      Piracy is easier. What I dont buy in "imaginary media", I can buy in hardware, gadgets, better food, dinner out, save up for my ring for my GF, and other real stuff. Braggart pirates and others willing to go the length get the media we all want. I just benefit on those people who get it for me, and I thank them.

      Frankly, if you make "imaginary media", I'll take your work and not give a shit less. Ill spend my money on real material, thankyouverymuch.

      --
    69. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft definitely does not want to kill PC gaming, right now that's a market that they own pretty close to 100% of. If they push those users to consoles, MS would have to compete with Sony and Nintendo for them.

    70. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I'm sure he feels much better because a real human explained why he was fucked in the ass as opposed to a cold, senseless machine.

    71. Re:Because of the DRM by colonel+spalding · · Score: 1

      I (my loss I suppose) just don't buy these or any games with such draconian DRM. If I can't make a copy, put a disk image on my computer and store away the original, I won't buy it. I'm very happy to put my support/money to companies like Pangea.net (Enigma 1 and 2, Bugdom 1 and 2 to name a couple) that make it easy to play there games. I like my daughter to be able to sit down and play a game--not dig around for a DVD, eject the current one, blah blah blah. --colonel spalding

    72. Re:Because of the DRM by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Here's the problem: How would you know, before buying, that it is a Thai-only version? Does it say so on the box? Does the demo somehow indicate this?

      Is it even possible to return it, then?

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    73. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, somebody is getting paid to essentially say "Fuck you" to customers, instead of a machine doing it.

    74. Re:Because of the DRM by KlausBreuer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, you can. 2D Boy (http://2dboy.com) brought out a very nice game called "World of Goo". I can certainly recommend it: a very nice game, great fun, no copy protection at all, good long demo for free, and the game itself for $20 (nicely low price).

      And yet they still got pirated. See, they allow anybody to send in their high-score. And thus they found out that between 80% and 90% of these high-scores come from pirated versions.
      (http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/)
      Thus: no DRM, great game, low price: 80-90% piracy.

      The biggest joke is that they don't mind. They prefere to concentrate on their 10-20% legal users.

      Thus, a huge, inhuman game designed by a huge company and a committee and sold for a high price and a moronic copy protection (DRM is just a PC term) will certainly have a rather higher piracy percentage. And the producers should get used to this.

      --
      Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
    75. Re:Because of the DRM by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      I never buy ANYTHING containing DRM, I used to buy lots of games back before companies thought it was ok to mess with MY system.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    76. Re:Because of the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Usually I'd agree with you, but in this case, EA's response actually makes a very good point. Given that the Thai version of the game is about a quarter the price of the UK English version, it would be easy (and very profitable) for someone to purchase the Thai version, add the English language to it, and then sell it in English-speaking countries for less than it would usually cost them. They'd get the benefit of a legitimate version of the game, and you'd be making a bunch of money.

      Their actions seem to makes sense here.

    77. Re:Because of the DRM by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, anything will sell for the price the market carries. I'm not too familiar with the bargain bin deals, who actually slashes the price, whether the shops have to pay up front and want to cut their losses or whether game studios want to get rid of their unsold copies and 5 bucks is still better than paying for the landfill, but the reason why games keep their price for some time is usually because they can be sold at that price. You might have noticed that some games hold their price for longer than others. With Spore, I'd be surprised if it was still sold at full price, while I think I can remember games like WC3 or similar being sold at premium for over a year.

      The secondary market is certainly a nuisance. For pretty much every manufacturer, not only content. Content providers now have a fairly good way to actually "fight" it, something that would be utterly impossible with tangible goods. When I buy a table, I own it. I may take it apart, modify it, destroy it, use the wood to build something else out of it, even sell what I made out of it for a profit if I find someone stupid enough to buy it.

      Now try THAT with content without being sued into oblivion!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    78. Re:Because of the DRM by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It's a bit hard to fight the pirates when most of geekdom supports them.

      It's even harder when your actions support them, too.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    79. Re:Because of the DRM by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      To quote an ex-boss of mine, "The customer is the necessary evil to profit". Back then I was working for a company that had the de facto monopoly for broadband internet in a large portion of the country.

      Other companies broke into that monopoly (wasn't THAT hard considering what they charged for what kind of "service"). A year after they got competition, prices dropped sharply, customers were lost in amounts that weren't even managable anymore (seriously, we had troubles squeezing enough time out of our technicians to cut them off) and I guess I needn't mention what this did to revenue and shareholder value.

      Result? Did they reconsider their pricing and customer service strategy? Did they start to restructure and weed out the system to become more competitive? Nope. Half the staff was laid off, overtime tripled and the suits cut themselves some bonus for their good work.

      Some companies don't learn, it seems. What puzzles me to no end is that they stay in business.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    80. Re:Because of the DRM by Pentagram · · Score: 1

      I grabbed the pirate version but didn't install it

      Is that the equivalent of not inhaling? :)

    81. Re:Because of the DRM by emj · · Score: 1

      Bruce Eckel seems to be writing books about programming, courseware is one of the most pirate types of books. I still have a hard time believing you, has it really come this far, that people just read from the screen not wanting to buy the book?

    82. Re:Because of the DRM by emj · · Score: 1

      More like; hey I don't know the local language can you buy me the cheapo tickets only locals can buy? Oooh and by the way can you be my guide through the whole ride, I don't know the local language....

      If the guy had learned Thai to begin with this wouldn't be a problem. And since he is living there he should learn Thai.

  2. The Solution. by iYk6 · · Score: 5, Funny

    The solution is obvious. Add more DRM!!!

    1. Re:The Solution. by Loibisch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Three will come a time when the only version of a game that is actually playable will be the one you can download off Bittorrent.

    2. Re:The Solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And that time is, what, four years ago?

    3. Re:The Solution. by karstux · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You jest, but this is precisely what the shareholders will demand of the publishers. They do not understand that piracy cannot be defeated by technical means, so they'll just keep on layering increasingly nasty DRM on the games.

      At the same time, they will lobby politicians to implement even more draconian "IP-protection" laws.

      So while the headline does induce a warm, fuzzy "serves you right" feeling, the implications are not so funny.

      --
      Don't whistle while you're pissing.
    4. Re:The Solution. by JohhnyTHM · · Score: 3, Funny

      The solution is obvious. Add more DRM!!!

      We like the way you think and would like to offer you a position in our organization.

      Yours, the EA management team.

    5. Re:The Solution. by fastest+fascist · · Score: 4, Funny

      There will come a time when fighting around DRM and finding a decent torrent after becoming frustrated with the purchased copy IS the game.

    6. Re:The Solution. by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

      A company that makes Spore wants to earn a living. And to do that they put on DRM. Yet broadly said, "oh look the most pirated game" will only cause more DRM.

      I am not one for draconian DRM, but the reality is that people pirate way too much. It seems that the current generation thinks that charging for software is a bad thing.

      The thing is that you can have free software, and you can have for charge software. But when people start pirating software they are only making the case for people who break the GPL. After all free software and for charge software uses copyright laws...

      I for one like both software types and respect the licenses of both software. Doing otherwise would be hypocritical...

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    7. Re:The Solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You forget tho. The more restrictive the DRM the more people turn to the pirated version to avoid it. Whats the point of not using a CDkey? It still stops people that are dumb or lazy. The current DRM schemes do the same thing but while treating the paying customer as a thief.

            Its not I that should be going "Oh wow I cant believe I was allowed to play Spore on my computer!! Im so Lucky!" It should be the game companies that are happy that we want to play their game and pay them money to do it.

    8. Re:The Solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's sad because the DRM snake oil salesmen are the only ones profiting here. Consumers who use the DRM games not only suffer a less satisfying game experience, they also suffer system instability and system performance degradation. The customer response of using hacks and cracks to avoid that kind of crap creates one of the greatest malware vectors out there. What's baffling is that DRM has somehow become confused as a law and order and property rights issue in the mind of people who really should know better, including quite a few slashdot posters.

    9. Re:The Solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A company that makes Spore wants to earn a living.
      And they're doing a damn good job of it, piracy or no. Nobody is going to bed hungry because 1.7 million people pirated Spore.

    10. Re:The Solution. by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Informative

      Copying games is about as old as the game industry. About 20 years ago, when I was young, it was often also the only way to actually get games before they were outdated. Not to mention that back then games were often not only cracked but also included a "trainer", i.e. a built in cheat, which actually made the copies more interesting than the originals.

      A bit like today with DRM, but back in the good ol' days game crackers actually added value instead of just removing the value subtraction... anyway.

      Copy protection is also about as old as the game industry. And no copy protection ever protected a game from being copied. If anything, it led to the rise of certain copier groups. Without copy protection, this kind of organisation would not have been necessary, and I doubt they would have risen to the levels they were until about a decade ago. And without them, the widespread copying would not have been possible.

      Stings like Buccaneer and Fastlink certainly put some strain on "cracker groups", but whether or not they continue is no longer of pressing importance for the copying of games. You don't need the sort of organisation anymore that was necessary one or two decades ago. You don't need suppliers, couriers, BBS operators and all the other people involved with acquisition and distribution of software. You only need the person cracking the game. And, more importantly, you need globally one single person to do it, distribution of the crack is easily accomplished through P2P.

      Now we see a focus on P2P in the fight against copying. There may be some sort of achivement similar to the stings mentioned above, maybe in 3, maybe in 5 years, but then we'll be on the next technology for getting, cracking and spreading software.

      See the pattern? Whatever is done against widespread copying, it is usually too late to actually counter what has already been established.

      You want people to heed copyrights. That is a fair demand. I'm actually sure people are very willing to heed them if their demand is met, too. But we're moving away from the demand with the supply. Companies supply software with more and more invasive DRM. People want software that allows them to use it without hassle and without jumping through hoops to be allowed to use what they pay for. Draconian DRM, lawsuits and stings will not help there in any way. It will, if anything, alienate your customer. People are usually quite willing to play fair if they feel they are treated fairly. You offer me a fair deal and I will play fair. You offer me a foul deal and I will play foul.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:The Solution. by fluch · · Score: 1

      We like the way you think and would like to offer you a position in our organization.

      Yours, the EA management team.

      Douh!

    12. Re:The Solution. by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am not one for draconian DRM, but the reality is that people pirate way too much.
      The other fact is that draconian DRM doesn't stop people pirating single player PC games and may even encourage it.

      If your game is good and has strong multiplayer then you can control piracy through the online multiplayer component (think starcraft, I know plenty of people whose first copy of starcraft was a burnt copy but later bought legit copies to play online) but if your game is shit or mostly singleplayer than you have little hope stopping pirates on the PC platform.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    13. Re:The Solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GTA IV on PC?

    14. Re:The Solution. by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      It's sad that someone who decides what kind of DRM goes into EA games says "Shit, that stuff ain't workin'! 1.7 million downloads! Okay, Spore 2 is gonna have Starforce as well as Securom, 3 CD-Keys, and a decoder ring!"

    15. Re:The Solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      DON'T COPY THAT FLOPPY!!

    16. Re:The Solution. by Drumforyourlife · · Score: 1

      Add spyware! then nobody (smart) would copy it!

    17. Re:The Solution. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      You jest, but this is precisely what the shareholders will demand of the publishers.

      What if shareholders sue them for irresponsibly losing sales because people are starting to learn the truth about DRM?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    18. Re:The Solution. by shadwstalkr · · Score: 1

      They do not understand that piracy cannot be defeated by technical means

      I have to disagree with you, but mostly on semantics. I think the only way to "defeat" piracy is to make it easier for the average consumer to buy the game than pirate it. When you can pay for a game, download it, and start playing in less time than it takes to find a good torrent then most people will buy it. Doing this requires technical means.

      I think you meant that they'll just make it harder to buy and play their games, which will make piracy worse. I agree with that.

      </pedantic>

    19. Re:The Solution. by theaveng · · Score: 5, Interesting

      For those of us who had Ataris and Commodores, that day happened around twenty-five years ago.

      - Pirated versions load faster.
      - Pirates versions customize the game (skipping levels, unlimited lives).
      - Pirated versions don't pound your 1541 drive's head to pieces and incur a $500 repair to fix it!!!
      - Pirated versions can be backed-up whereas the original can not; the disk dies and you're out $30. The game company won't send you a new one.

      Yep. I've been preferring pirated versions since circa 1985.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    20. Re:The Solution. by pwizard2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Stings like Buccaneer and Fastlink certainly put some strain on "cracker groups", but whether or not they continue is no longer of pressing importance for the copying of games.

      The thing that bothers me the most is how much tax money went to fund those two operations. (anything that involves law enforcement also involves public funds) Why should the taxpayer have to pay to protect the bottom line of companies? If the release groups and game companies want to fight it out, that's fine with me, (since I'm involved in neither party) but the industry should have to pay for it if they want to get law enforcement involved.

      --
      "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
    21. Re:The Solution. by servognome · · Score: 1

      The solution is obvious. Add more DRM!!!

      Which can mean hardware locking ala moving exclusively to consoles and stopping releases PC versions. Sure there is piracy in console space, but it's far less since the need to physically mod the system discourages a large number of people.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    22. Re:The Solution. by servognome · · Score: 1

      They do not understand that piracy cannot be defeated by technical means, so they'll just keep on layering increasingly nasty DRM on the games.

      Actually publishers do understand this, so PC games are becoming an after thought. Games used to be designed for PCs then ported to consoles, now it's becoming the opposite and we're stuck with watered down gameplay and poor control schemes.
      The only real PC-centric development will be service games like MMOs where publishers control the game, you just rent the access.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    23. Re:The Solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DON'T COPY THAT FLOPPY!!

      And yet, Microsoft (the originators of the "Don't Copy That Floppy!" catchphrase) would not be the monopoly that they are now if people HAD listened to their pleas...

      Jus' sayin'...

    24. Re:The Solution. by westlake · · Score: 1
      So while the headline does induce a warm, fuzzy "serves you right" feeling, the implications are not so funny.

      You could see the disappearance of the stand-alone PC game.

      Meaning the DRM will be woven deep into the hardware of your video game console, your set-top box, your 150" HDTV -

      [take a screwdriver to any one of them and your wife will thinking divorce]

      - or the game will simply be unplayable without downloaded content or a live internet connection.

      FIOS suggests a world in which even the most demanding game elements reside almost wholly on the server.

      The only reward for nursing that BT download will be in burning a 5 1/4" plastic coaster for your next can of beer.

    25. Re:The Solution. by yayotters · · Score: 0

      I just lost...

  3. no demos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is it me or is there some connection with this and a game not having any way for any one to really try it to see IF they want to lay out there money on it.

    and no I don't call the non-pay creature creater a real demo.

    1. Re:no demos by FugitiveMind · · Score: 5, Informative

      The creature creator used SecuROM (invasive copy protection) and 'phoned home'. I imagine a demo would do the same.

      I, and a lot of other people, would avoid it as a matter of principle.

    2. Re:no demos by fastest+fascist · · Score: 1

      Would a demo do the same? Why would you put copy protection on a demo anyway?

    3. Re:no demos by MooUK · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To stop people comparing the demo and the game files to see where the protection was added.

      At least, that's what I've seen claimed.

    4. Re:no demos by Talrinys · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're exactly right, i hate the fact that demos are suddenly out of fashion, it used to be the best way to get a good preview of the game. These days i pirate every game that doesn't have a demo and check them out, and buy them if i want to keep playing after the first 20 minutes or so, did that with Storm of Zehir last week, CoD World at War the week before that - IMO it's the only way to do these things.

    5. Re:no demos by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Various reasons. One, as has been mentioned, to avoid crackers to look at demo and final and compare (which is, IMO, bollocks since when you use some sensible algorithms to crypt it you can't see jack, just use a boilerplate version of the DRM software that doesn't phone home and you're set. If your DRM vendor doesn't provide that, switch the DRM vendor if you really insist in having one).

      Another reason, and more important if you ask me, as a gauge how many copies you might be able to sell. When a million people use your demo, it's likely that more people will buy it than when you see only about 100k using it. Downloads don't really count since they, too, could be redistributed or downloaded from pages that host your demo without your knowledge.

      And of course to give people the train of thought: "Well, I got that crap on my PC already anyway, so buying and installing that game won't make it worse".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:no demos by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, when you saw Spore, I think you'll agree that any kind of demo would have hurt the sales, not helped them. What would you have demo'ed? The "eat and grow" treadmill in the beginning that I have seen done better in various flash games? Doubt that would have convinced anyone to actually buy the game.

      But if it tells me something it is to stay away from games that don't dare to offer a free sample of their gameplay. When they're not confident that the 20ish minutes I can usually play such a demo before I hit the "buy the full version to play on" wall will make me want more, the game is usually good for less than those 20 minutes.

      And, bluntly, 50 bucks for 20 minutes ... dunno, how much are hookers these days?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:no demos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me too .. I refuse to play games infected with bad DRM.

    8. Re:no demos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      You should be able to at least get a blow job for $50. To have sex you're looking at probably about 3x as much, but I guess it varies from place to place. I suppose a blow job would last a bit less than 20 mins however, but the overall entertainment would be about 20 mins. I'd probably go with the blow job over spore. But then there is the stigma attached with getting a hooker, esp when I can just get my gf to suck me for free. Actually, I'd probably just keep the $50 and spend it on a couple dinners.

    9. Re:no demos by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      But then there is the stigma attached with getting a hooker

      I dunno about you, but I couldn't say what would be harder to explain for the average geek: Being caught with a hooker or being caught with Spore?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Trite news, but still news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This should be from the I-told-you-so department. Does this really shock any of the /. crowd?

    It sucks that something so popular with publishers and unpopular with consumers keeps making headline news (granted, /. headlines are a bit different), because we get to hear the same arguments again and again and again.

    And I'd say these numbers are highly suspect to boot. Where does torrentfreak get the rough total number of downloads?

  5. yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OF COURSE I'm going to pirate them. Why? Because I don't want to waste money on something that is being heralded as the next messiah, but in reality is something I couldn't stomach to play through much.
    Truly horrid games.

    1. Re:yes by someone1234 · · Score: 0

      Why do you want to pirate a game you don't want to play?
      If i ever pirate a game, it is because i want to play it, but for some reason i couldn't. (icky copy protection, not available in my country, etc)

      --
      Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
    2. Re:yes by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You've never been a teenager, have you? It's bragging rights. Remember kids, the more you download, the longer your penis is.

      In my days it was the kind of clothes you wear, later it was having the biggest trading card deck, today it's the amount of ripped software you store. It's not like anyone really needs 20 TB of software (or movies), it's our good ol' hunter and gatherer impulse.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AC: Have you tried those cheese samples? Fucking nasty.

      someone1234: If it's nasty, why did you eat it?

    4. Re:yes by Narishma · · Score: 1
      Why do you want to pirate a game you don't want to play?

      Because you can't know if it's something you want to play before you try it.

      --
      Mada mada dane.
    5. Re:yes by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 1

      It's not like anyone really needs 20 TB of software (or movies), it's our good ol' hunter and gatherer impulse.

      Speak for yourself. My 22TB of midget porn rarely keeps me entertained for more than two hours at a time anymore. I just need new material!

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    6. Re:yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never been a teenager, have you? It's bragging rights. Remember kids, the more you download, the longer your penis is.

      No wonder chicks don't play games.

    7. Re:yes by DMalic · · Score: 1

      One movie a week (8.5 gigs), times 53 weeks a year makes that a four year supply of movies. Two a week.. two years. That's with standard def, not HD.

    8. Re:yes by kramerd · · Score: 1

      I wasn't aware that there were 371 days in a year now.

      *obligatory* 4 years of movies ought to be enough for anyone...

    9. Re:yes by DMalic · · Score: 1

      Man, I have no idea where that number came from.

  6. WRONG! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 4, Funny

    There was not a single case of a shipping of that game being stolen on the high seas.

    Oh, you mean people shared the files? Well, here's a handy guide for you.

    Arrrr!

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:WRONG! by Mascot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's time to stop fighting this. Nobody I know associates "pirating a game" with hijacking a boat. Besides, it's gone colloquial and is making it into the dictionaries.

      piâ...raâ...cy
      â"noun, plural -cies.

      1. practice of a pirate; robbery or illegal violence at sea.

      2. the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.: The record industry is beset with piracy.

    2. Re:WRONG! by FourthAge · · Score: 2, Informative

      And the "copyright infringement" definition of piracy has been in usage since 1603. Wikipedia has a nice little history of the use of the term. And in any case, what does anyone hope to prove by saying "it's not piracy because it's not robbery at sea?" What do you gain by saying that? It's not like the RIAA are going to string you up on the nearest dockside according to ancient maritime convention.

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
    3. Re:WRONG! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you said doesn't make any sense. If an expression that has an objective meaning for centuries (piracy) is being once again hijacked and manipulated by corporations in order to fight a public relations battle then the logical thing to do is educate everyone about the true meaning of a word. The same thing applies to the blatant misuse of the word "terrorism".

      Let's not embrace stupidity and ignorance just because you believe everyone should "stop fighting it".

    4. Re:WRONG! by Kneo24 · · Score: 1, Troll

      What most people fail to realize that the legal definition of piracy is robbery at sea, not copyright infringement.

      I do agree that the usage of "piracy" to mean "copyright infringement" is outright retarded. When I hear the word pirate, I automatically think of ships with guns attacking other ships for their wares and goods, and maybe even a few ruffians on the boat who might look a little unkempt from being out in sea for so long.

    5. Re:WRONG! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Well done, finally a picture that depicts the true state of the industry.

    6. Re:WRONG! by NickFortune · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And in any case, what does anyone hope to prove by saying "it's not piracy because it's not robbery at sea?"

      I don't mind people using "piracy" as a sort of shorthand for "copyright infringement". I just object when people try to reason that because the word is also used to refer to armed robbery on the high seas, it is therefore morally and legally equivalent to armed and violent robbery and should be treated in a similar manner.

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    7. Re:WRONG! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to start "knowing" intelligent people then...it has gone, in your words, colloquial because of a concentrated campaign by commercial interests. Feel free to defend it like the shill you are.

    8. Re:WRONG! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Well, let me tell you something: People are retards. Apparently especially the ones that you know. ;)

      And additionally, I do not care what you think. Maybe you like not being the leader in things (Which is totally fine. The world needs both types of people to get things done.), but I like to lead to the right way. Even if I'm the only one and/or die from it.
      At least I can live/rot with myself. ;)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    9. Re:WRONG! by Mascot · · Score: 1

      I've read that twice. And, if I were modding, I can't decide between funny and something less flattering. So I can't really respond.

      But if funny was the intent, I like you.

      If not, then apparently there are not one but two words you need to work on getting redefined in the dictionaries. Go lead!

    10. Re:WRONG! by rabiddeity · · Score: 1

      I don't mind people using "piracy" as a sort of shorthand for "copyright infringement". I just object when people try to reason that because the word is also used to refer to armed robbery on the high seas, it is therefore morally and legally equivalent to armed and violent robbery and should be treated in a similar manner.

      I agree. People who misuse the terminology in such a way should be keelhauled.

  7. Propaganda terms... by Daemonax · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Can't we stop it with using the term pirate? Yes, it might be a humurous label amongst us geeks, but by going along with it, instead of actively resisting it, we help to fuel in the minds of those who only hear one side of the story, that people who violate copyright law are bad evil pirates. Let's try using more accurate terms like copyright infringers, or something that doesn't have so much obvious bias in it.

    It is rather funny though that a game known perhaps more for it's crazy DRM (heck I don't know what the actual game is about...) than anything else, is the game that has had the most unauthorised downloads.

    1. Re:Propaganda terms... by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      Can't we stop it with using the term pirate? Yes, it might be a humurous label amongst us geeks, but by going along with it, instead of actively resisting it, we help to fuel in the minds of those who only hear one side of the story, that people who violate copyright law are bad evil pirates. Let's try using more accurate terms like copyright infringers, or something that doesn't have so much obvious bias in it.

      You don't think that 'copyright infringers' sounds even more creepy and disturbing than pirates? I think we need a new term, frankly. I think Free Unauthorised Clone Copying is very appropriate - it's just unfortunate that the acronym is FUCC.

      Gross commercial copyright infringers could be referred to as mother-FUCCers. Kids who copy each others games would be little FUCCers.

    2. Re:Propaganda terms... by Mascot · · Score: 1

      The "making illegal copies" definition is already in dictionaries. In many parts of the world, probably most, there's a much larger odds people will associate "pirates" with pimple faced teenagers than unwashed men with parrots on their shoulders.

      Not to mention, it's a damn hassle typing "copyright infringer".

    3. Re:Propaganda terms... by fastest+fascist · · Score: 1

      if you want to do away with "pirate", you're going to need a seriously catchy alternative. Forcing people to change the words they use is very difficult. Just look at the way the word "hacker" is used.

      I think the folks at the Pirate Bay have the right idea - co-opt the word, make it a positive thing.

    4. Re:Propaganda terms... by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Interesting

      From what I hear, modern pirates tend to have heavy artillery on their shoulder rather than a parrot:

      Maritime piracy still goes on, and is still a major problem in some parts of the world. Just because someone's smear tactic to conflate illegal copying with theft and murder has been successful doesn't mean we should stop resisting it.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    5. Re:Propaganda terms... by Daemonax · · Score: 1

      I don't really think that outside the geek community they've really made the term a positive thing, hence why the RIAA still use the term.

      You're right that a catchy term would really help though. Typing copyright infringers is a pain. I wonder if there is some word that could be used, related to say Robin Hood. In the stories, what he did was illegal, the law made that clear, but the morality was not as clear cut as the Sherrif/RIAA would have liked it to be.

    6. Re:Propaganda terms... by Mascot · · Score: 1

      I dunno about the news around your parts, but I've never seen "piracy" used in the context of murder except when combined with boats on the other side of the planet.

      Would I agree a greater degree of separation would be warranted if I lived in, say, Somalia? Yes. But I don't. Around here piracy = copying software or peddling in items with faked brands, unless accompanied by a picture of a boat and the name of another country in the headline.

      There really isn't any possibility of getting the two confused. So I don't see the problem. I do see a problem using "theft" or "stealing", since those words do mean something else here.

    7. Re:Propaganda terms... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Pirates haven't been seen as "bad" for years. The movies define our perception of them. They're heroic characters like the Dread Pirate Roberts, or devilish rogues like Jack Sparrow. Even the bad guys come across pretty positively.

      "Copyright infringers" immediately says "law breaker" to most people. I don't want to be one of them, but I do wanna be a pirate!

    8. Re:Propaganda terms... by Daemonax · · Score: 1

      I agree with your second point there. It is why I've thought that saying stuff like, illegal downloading, which while correct, carries with it a lot of emotion. I'm still not convinced though that the public think of 'pirates' in a positive way. When reading an article on the BBC about some new copyright law, or some Three Strikes policy, in order to stop pirates/piracy, the connection with pirates and 'bad' is made in their mind.

      I thought that saying "I just lessig'd Jonathan Coulton's new album" would be funny and could catch on... Just not so sure it's right. It's not what Lessig promotes, and it's again loaded with bias. It could though promote knowledge about Lessig and creative commons... It's not a very catchy term though... Ahwell.

    9. Re:Propaganda terms... by db32 · · Score: 1

      I might buy that argument if we didn't have Sept 19, International Speak Like a Pirate Day. If there weren't 3 huge success movies that made pirates lovable characters. If there wasn't millions and millions being made off of of the merchandising of anything pirate related. If anything it should have the opposite effect of what you state. When REAL Somali pirates steal boats and murder crew and then they get on this software nonsense and call it piracy....well...call a kid who shoplifted something a rapist and see who's side everyone takes.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    10. Re:Propaganda terms... by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      That news article was from my parts - I'm in Australia, that was from the Sydney Morning Herald. And yeah, the piracy is around Somalia. But in this case, the piracy was directed against a cruise ship on which there happened to be Australian passengers. And with the price of petrol these days, the hijacking of a super-tanker of oil makes the news too. Just beacuse the events happen a long way off doesn't mean they don't affect things back here in "civilization".

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    11. Re:Propaganda terms... by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      Why else do you suppose that the terms "piracy" and "pirate" were used to describe copyright infringement? Those terms, when first used in the context of the music industry, were much more powerful and helped the cause of those who were infringed upon.

      My problem is that while copyright infringement is about taking something that is not yours, it is NOT about depriving someone else of something that is theirs.* In that way, illegal copying and stealing are two different things and should not be treated equal in the law. Copyright infringement should never be treated as the same crime as stealing. But the opposite is often true... you might get off better being convicted of stealing a car than being convicted of pirating music.

      * I'm not talking about being deprived of sales money. That argument could be applied to both stealing a car and copying a CD. Still, the difference would be that in the end, the original owner no longer has the car to use or sell, but he/she still has the master music track and can still sell copies later.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    12. Re:Propaganda terms... by Mascot · · Score: 1

      You're derailing from the point. Please explain to me how "Somali pirate attack on ship foiled" could be confused with software piracy.

      As others have pointed out "piracy" has been used to describe copyright infringement like offences since before copyright was invented. There's virtually zero risk of ever getting the different usage areas of the term mixed up, so why the big controversy in geek-land? Absolutely everybody knows that when you pirate a song, you're making an illegal copy of it. You're not killing a hundred people and stealing their CD. Claiming the term vilifies computer users into something equivalent of mass murderers is ludicrous.

    13. Re:Propaganda terms... by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      I got it! Instead of "pirate", we'll use "merry man!"

      Doesn't that sound catchy?

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    14. Re:Propaganda terms... by menkhaura · · Score: 1

      Well, not only Copying, but Keeping as well, which also leads to a better acronym...

      --
      Stupidity is an equal opportunity striker.
      Fellow slashdotter Bill Dog
    15. Re:Propaganda terms... by Mascot · · Score: 1

      Those terms, when first used in the context of the music industry, were much more powerful and helped the cause of those who were infringed upon.

      According to wikipedia, the term was first used (in this context) in the 1600s with regards to violating a monopoly on publication of written works. Extending the term to cover unauthorized reproduction of current day media seems rather logical. If it's been used in this capacity for four hundred freakin years, it's a bit late to try to get it out of the dictionary.

      My problem is that while copyright infringement is about taking something that is not yours, it is NOT about depriving someone else of something that is theirs.

      I agree. Which is why calling it theft, or stealing, is wrong. Those words, by definition, requires the owner to be deprived of their property, and that is not an accurate description of downloading a piece of music or what have you. Which is why we point and laugh at the "you wouldn't steal a car" type propaganda on MTV and such.

      However, calling it piracy is well within the established meaning of the word. Just like a fake Prada bag is called a knock-off in some areas, and a pirate-product elsewhere. Piracy does not imply "involving boats".

    16. Re:Propaganda terms... by Muledeer007 · · Score: 1

      EA is not stupid...... EA downloads from Torrents all the time -- they use the torrent tracking totals to provide their lobbyists with "Huge Pirating Totals" to get DRM legislation in Washington....... I'd do the same thing if I were them and blame the "pirate" industry when a sub-par product doesn't produce. (i.e. RIAA Business Model)

    17. Re:Propaganda terms... by andy_t_roo · · Score: 1

      yeah, because they go 'Robin' the rich and give to the poor

  8. This has Nothing to do with DRM by Davemania · · Score: 0, Redundant

    correlation != caustion, I'll concede that DRM probably had some affect on the download count but not to this magnitude. Spore was over-hyped and that was probably the main reason people downloaded this game. How many think that Batman will be one of the highest illegally downloaded movie ? DRM ? (don't get me wrong, most DRM implementation is idiotic)

    1. Re:This has Nothing to do with DRM by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Be it how it may, what stays is that the DRM certainly caused some people to abstain from buying it. Me, for one. I wanted to actually go out and buy it. I tend to buy the games that I play. Having had a bad streak of heavily DRMified software, which I oppose on principle, I started looking whether Spore will contain DRM akin to StarForce or similar crippling mechanisms, only to learn that it's going to be a LOT worse.

      So I went and signed that petition that was being passed around. I didn't really expect it to affect anything, but hey, you never know. And I was waiting whether EA decides to drop it. I wouldn't have minded keeping a DVD in the drive or entering some serial number, but that's about the level of copy protection I draw the line at. Mandatory registration and tying my copy of a game to the machine I install it on is past that line.

      They decided to keep this version of DRM, so I decided to keep my money. Yes, I wanted that game. I wanted quite a few games in the past that I had to pass on due to DRM. Later I often got to buy them from the bargain bin when the vendor decided to remove the crippling protection with a patch, and this is when I get to play it. Ok. So I may not play it when it comes out, but eventually I might.

      I can live with that. I wonder if the game makers can, though.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  9. Maybe... by epr · · Score: 1

    All that DRM actually means that EA _wants_ us to pirate games?

    I know I'm interpreting it like that.

    1. Re:Maybe... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I think in this case, yes.

      What these companies already know is that the people who will buy the game will, and the people that wont will not.

      What EA wants here is near maximum saturation. They want the people that wont buy it to also have it, hence the media blitz, hence the release to pirates days before commercial release, and so on.

      They've got millions of people creating content that they now own. Sporepedia is full of assets they would traditionally had to pay big money for (hundreds of millions of dollar, maybe even billions.)

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
  10. figures... by Eternal+Annoyance · · Score: 1

    They invest lots of energy in piracy, so they get piracy. Stop investing energy in piracy, and it'll drop by quite a lot. This includes things like DRM, registration keys, availability (some people just aren't prepared to get a game from an online vendor) and ofcourse... price (the more expansive a game is, the more difficult it'll be to get the consumer to buy it).

    1. Re:figures... by Quarters · · Score: 1

      So to combat the illegal download of games you think EA should stop using online vendors because some people can't get games from online?

    2. Re:figures... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      So if they put in no DRM, then you think people won't pirate it? You must not know very many people.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  11. Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Now, let's ponder for a moment. Was this game P2Ped so often despite the insane DRM mechanisms? Or was it maybe because of it?

    How many read about what EA wants to do with their PCs to be allowed to play this piece of ... erhm ... software? Deep manipulation of your driver makeup, authorisation requirement to be allowed to use what you pay for, the sword of damocles hanging over you in the guise of limiting the times you may activate it, not to mention the question whether or not you'll be allowed to play it when EA decides that you shouldn't any longer because you're supposed to buy the successor...

    How many of those copies are actually people who bought the game and for some reason had to activate it once too often, and instead of calling the very helpful, friendly and lightning fast user support people of EA who speak flawless English they decided for the faster venue of downloading the game to play it? Or, how many actually HAD to download it to play it at all because for some funky reason that DRM barfed on them and all EA said was "sorry, problem at your end"?

    I'm actually willing to grant the DRM advocates that this time those copies are actually lost sales. But not despite, rather because of DRM. People wanted to play that game and they would have had no worries about the 50ish bucks it costs, but they just didn't want you to mess up their PCs.

    Before someone asks, no, I didn't copy it. The money allotted for the purchase of Spore was redirected to Sins of a Solar Empire when I heard about Spore's DRM mechanism. Sins was a purchase of protest, only to turn out to be a pretty well made game. I then saw Spore at a friend's and realized it ain't even worth the bandwidth necessary to P2P it. So, I guess, I'm not in this statistic this time.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1, Troll

      Do you have any data to back that up? It's not for SecuRom but the data UbiSoft published about StarForce strongly suggests that the level of DRM related problems, even with very aggressive implementations, is low. As in sub-1% low. I'm really sceptical that even 1% of this 1 million+ figure is people downloading it "because they had to" after buying it. Occams Razor says the simplest explanation wins - those people are pirates.

    2. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, let's ponder for a moment. Was this game P2Ped so often despite the insane DRM mechanisms? Or was it maybe because of it?

      Does it matter? Either way, it's proved DRM doesn't work.

    3. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      UbiSoft? You want me to trust a study regarding DRM troubles coming from a company that has to steal warez cracks to deal with their DRM troubles?

      Umm... any credible sources to back that up?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yes, it does matter.

      The argument of DRM advocates is that without DRM, their sales would plummet because of rampart copying. When the argument is just "DRM does not work", the counterargument is simply "then we need better DRM". I.e. more through, more hoops to jump through, more privacy invasion, more poking at your PCs inner working.

      If the argument is "DRM alienates your customers", this counterargument does not work.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by Kneo24 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even sub 1% of a few million people is a lot of people. A half percent of a million is 5,000 people. The game obviously sold more than that. Would you really want to take that risk? Let's just assume that it won't affect you, as the chances really are small. Are you comfortable installing an unremoveable root-kit on your machine? I know I'm not. Or let's assume you're ok with both. Are you ok with the low installation limit? For me, no game is worth that potential hassle.

      You also have to keep in mind that the numbers are also going to be skewed by the fact that a large number of angry people will just automatically return a game if it doesn't work (which has become increasingly harder to do) and won't bother calling technical support. I can't say by how much those numbers are skewed, however. It's probably not significantly, but it's still something to consider.

    6. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Occam's Razor says the explanation that makes the fewest assumptions wins

      Fixed that for you.

    7. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by RedWizzard · · Score: 1

      I'm really sceptical that even 1% of this 1 million+ figure is people downloading it "because they had to" after buying it.

      I agree - surely most people who actually bought the game would just download a no-cd crack rather than downloading the entire game.

    8. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by andy_t_roo · · Score: 1

      I think the counter-argument to this one is Sins of a Solar Empire -- no drm at all, quite good sales.

    9. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...the sword of damocles hanging over you...

      That ain't no crime!

    10. Re:Despite DRM? Or rather because of it? by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      [...]their sales would plummet because of rampart copying.

      THE FIENDS! copying our defensive structures? No wonder the people at EA are so upset!

      --
      It's been a long time.
  12. Don't taunt us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The year is not over yet!

  13. This is one of those rare cases by mirshafie · · Score: 1

    when pirating really leads to less sales. You download the game to see if it's worth buying. This game in particular had a LOT of hype (and a lot of potential), but didn't deliver the kind of experience everyone was hoping for. You play it once and after that it's just not fun anymore. Therefore no sale after you've downloaded it.

    I hope they fix Spore. Make it more complex, at least as complex as they promised. Now it's just a dumbed down 2D gone 3D gone strategy simulator with plush dolls.

    1. Re:This is one of those rare cases by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Spore is, if anything, a lesson. I think it should be used as an example in game design classes.

      Spore is also a lesson to MMO makers, it really has a lot of qualities found in MMOs and it also shows why so many MMOs fail despite good outlook and design.

      The first few chapters in Spore is a lot like leveling your character in MMOs. You play and grind, you build your character, you "level" (as in, gain DNA and "evolve"), you make your decisions where to improve your character, what parts to focus on and what you can do without, aiming for the "endgame".

      Then you reach that endgame and realize a few things:
      Your decisions are pointless. No matter what you "evolved" and no matter what your race is like, the game is the same.
      The endgame itself stinks. Too much micromanagement, too little freedom in your decisions.

      The replay value, which could have been stunning considering the ways you could create your race, is near zero. Most of all, you do not want to replay, knowing that what is in for you in the end is the most tedious, boring part of the game.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:This is one of those rare cases by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "Spore is also a lesson to MMO makers, it really has a lot of qualities found in MMOs and it also shows why so many MMOs fail despite good outlook and design."

      The wonderful thing about MMO's is that MMO's can't blame piracy for when they fail. I really hate how the industry scapegoats piracy. When you look at the MMO space and see all the failures, that should be used as a benchmark against non-mmo games, because realistically you're only going to have so many successful games in a highly over-saturated market.

    3. Re:This is one of those rare cases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like life.

  14. I can see why people would be skeptical by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Particularly in the case of Spore. That game was sold as just damn amazing. Well often when that's claimed it turns out not to be the case. Fable would be a good example. Had it been what it was originally claimed to be, it would likely be the defining RPG of this generation. Instead it was a fairly average action RPG.

    Such is the case with Spore as well. Now I don't know, maybe the game gets awesome in later stages but to me, it seemed very shallow the little I tooled around with it on a friend's copy. The first two stages were really boring. I also had a look at his game on the Civilization stage. Well guess what? I've already seen that done better in a game called... Civilization. I likes me a good Civ simulator, in fact I own Civ 4 and it's two expansions. So if you aren't doing it better than that, and it isn't, well then I am not that interested.

    Had I bought it, I would have felt rather ripped off. However I know you have to be careful on those extremely hyped games. You can't go by reviews either. Reviewers have already talked them selves in to how good the game will be, reviews are far too positively biased for Big Hits(tm).

    I also think in Spore's case a non-trivial amount of it may have been due to DRM protest. Now you can argue if that's the way to go about it or not, but there were lots of people pissed about it. I've decided EA can basically get fucked. I'm not buying their games with this activation bullshit unless they are absolutely superb. I bought Mass Effect, that game is just that good, but I'm giving most others a miss.

    For example I'm not going to get Red Alert 3. I'm a fan of the C&C series and have bought most of them. I quite liked C&C3 and Kane's Revenge. However though I like them, they aren't good enough for me to put up with the activation shit. So I'll get something else instead, Demigod probably.

    Now while I'm not going to go nab a copy off Bittorrent, that may be what some people do, people who are put off by the DRM.

    I'm reasonable when it comes to DRM. I'll accept that publishers are paranoid and need the "feel good" of having some DRM on the games, even though it seems it really doesn't help (see Sins of a Solar Empire for proof). However when it gets to be bullshit like "You can only install the game 3 times and then never again," well fuck you. Good games, I want to play and replay. I still fire up Baldur's Gate 2 from time to time. You'd better believe I've done more than 3 reinstalls since then. Hell I've gone through more than 3 complete system upgrades since that came out.

    EA really seems to have crossed the stupid threshold. In particular the activation limits imply that it isn't so much about preventing illegal copying as it is about preventing a used game market and forcing you to buy new versions. I think the rampant copying will help show that no, this shit DOESN'T stop it.

    1. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by mpeskett · · Score: 1

      The videos we saw of Spore were amazing. What we were subsequently sold was a poor shadow of what the game was supposed to be.

      I want to know what happened to the game from the videos at E3 in 2005...

    2. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by theaveng · · Score: 1

      Same thing that happened to the "Final Fantasy 7" PS3 demo of around the same time.

      It was just a graphical mockup, not the actual game. I think it's about time that politicians crack-down on advertisers using CGI-enhanced videos or CGI-enhanced photos to push products (modify the existing false-advertising laws). They should be required to show ACTUAL videos/photos without retouching, and that includes models in magazine ads.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    3. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by IICV · · Score: 1

      You can't go by reviews either. Reviewers have already talked them selves in to how good the game will be, reviews are far too positively biased for Big Hits(tm).

      Yeah, that's why I watch Zero Punctuation for game reviews. Yahtzee already hates everything, so he only actually likes very few games, and those few games are generally excellent. The problem is, he only does one per week. Also, he doesn't do anything stupid like rate something so large and complex as a game on a five or ten point scale, which I appreciate but some people don't.

    4. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by bigngamer92 · · Score: 1

      My friend also purchased the game. He even sprung for the "Galactic Edition". He was completely caught up with the marketing hype (he owns a mac see:Mac Lover). I kept telling him I didn't believe it would achieve its potential but was secretly looking forward to it (almost pirated but my computer just sucks). In the end he played it for at most 2 weeks before reverting back to a WoW addict. My playtesting of it only proved to me that the game starts out strong (Cell Phase) and just detiorates from their into a childs version of the history of life. Really dissapointed in how much they screwed up such an ambitious project.

    5. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by Fweeky · · Score: 1

      Such is the case with Spore as well. Now I don't know, maybe the game gets awesome in later stages but to me, it seemed very shallow the little I tooled around with it

      Everything up to space stage is just tedious filler; a mechanism for making you design a creature and form some "attachment" to it. Space stage opens up a lot, and is really what the game is all about.

      But yeah, even getting that far sucks; you play a boring if slightly prettier version of fl0w; then a really dire third person, er, chomper; then an "RTS" without any appreciable strategy or tactics; then a hilariously bad and incredibly vague attempt at Civilization. That's an hour or two of time wasted in some of the worst games you're likly to force yourself to play through, and you get to do it for every creature you want to play.

      Space stage gives you a lot more stuff to do and look at, but it opens up tediously slowly. By the time you've faffed about enough to start opening up the sandbox aspects where you can blow up or terraform/modify planets, you realise it just isn't really fun and isn't likely to get much better; the game makes annoying repetitive demands on you to progress (save planet $foo from ecological collapse for the 8th time! save planey $bar from pirates again!) and hides most of itself until you've done it all dozens of times, and when it eventually reveals itself it's.. disappointing.

      But, it looks pretty, and it's got a marketing budget larger than the GDP of a small country, so of course it still sells well. *sigh*.

    6. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that your views on the stages seem to be a fairly popular opinion..

      http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/218-Spore

    7. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I paid full price for Spore... but since I got the digital copy, I can only download and reinstall it 3 times (without paying more money).

      Not only does the game actually suck hard, and therefore is not worth $50+, how the hell does it make any sense to limit the number of times someone who has paid full price (same as buying it from a store) can install the game on their machine?

      If they hadn't spent two years after E3 breaking the game, maybe it would have been worth my money. But as it stands, the only games that I've bought lately that I feel are at all worth what I payed for them are Valve's games. (TF2, Left4Dead, HalfLife2, etc) Why? They ooze quality, they don't try to fuck me (their paying customer) over, I can play my games on any computer (as long as I'm playing them on only one computer at a time).

      I say F*$# everyone except Valve. No one else has been making games properly for the past few years.

    8. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by Taken07 · · Score: 0

      Wait till the activation servers go down ...

    9. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by DMalic · · Score: 1

      I bought Age of Empires 3. Looked AWESOME. Turned out to be a ripoff piece of crap. Bought C&C 3 (it was only $25 WITH all the other C&C games packaged in too), was still a ripoff piece of crap. Bought RA:3, and while the co-op is fun, it's still a piece of crap. Now I feel like a stooge.

    10. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by DMalic · · Score: 1

      Like his reviews, but I usually disagree with his results.. (I loved Fear, hated HL2 and that other short orange box game everyone loves.. forgot the name.)

    11. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by travbrad · · Score: 1

      LOL, thanks for the link. Even if you don't agree with his opinion the reviews are still hilarious "I was busy shaking down the corpses for cans of baked beans" :D

    12. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by binaryspiral · · Score: 1

      Such is the case with Spore as well. Now I don't know, maybe the game gets awesome in later stages but to me, it seemed very shallow the little I tooled around with it on a friend's copy. The first two stages were really boring. I also had a look at his game on the Civilization stage. Well guess what? I've already seen that done better in a game called... Civilization. I likes me a good Civ simulator, in fact I own Civ 4 and it's two expansions. So if you aren't doing it better than that, and it isn't, well then I am not that interested.

      Had I bought it, I would have felt rather ripped off. However I know you have to be careful on those extremely hyped games. You can't go by reviews either. Reviewers have already talked them selves in to how good the game will be, reviews are far too positively biased for Big Hits(tm).

      I did buy it based on the hype and the many long civ games that I absolutely loved to play... I was one of the first of my friends to own this game - and got to be the one to tell them to hold off because there's a steaming turd in the box that EA is selling us.

      Yes, I feel very ripped off. EA wins again.

    13. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked on Spore for four years. I wish that what you were saying was true. Sadly there is no "evil EA influence" in the game. It just never really took form.

      The original GDC and E3 presentations were just a mock-up. It was as tightly scripted as a theme park ride. If you could have moved the camera, you would have seen the plywood and scaffolding that created the illusion of a working product.

      The early presentations were designed to grab interest. They worked "too well" because now everybody believes that we had really made something and then dumbed it down afterwards, which is so very far from the truth.

    14. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure you can imagine why I'm uncomfortable with posting as anything but AC. For one thing, I like being employed.

      Many people within EA and Maxis, not just marketers, feel that the deception we pulled off is justified. After all, it promoted interest in the game. It made people excited about our product. Will Wright never claimed that it was representative of the final product. It's not deception, it's promotion!

      On the other hand. I personally am ashamed that we won Best Game of E3 2005 when we hadn't even DESIGNED the gameplay, let alone made it work. And as you can see today, despite three years of trying, we never got the design right.

    15. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by mpeskett · · Score: 1

      Will Wright must be quite an actor to have had his lines so perfectly lined up with the demo video...

      I'm not even sure which I would prefer to be true - evil EA influence gives me a reason to hate EA even more-so (yay confirmation bias) and would allow me false hope that they'll eventually release a proper version of Spore, on the other hand if it was always a facade then I can write it all off as a gigantic dick-move by all involved and just let it go.

    16. Re:I can see why people would be skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't exactly a video. The creature editor was based on real prototypes. But all the game footage was mocked up in a 3D engine, there was nothing procedural about it. The models, textures, and animations were thrown together in Maya. If you pressed a key it would advance to the next scripted event (chase sequence, etc).

      Will was in charge of the whole thing and rehearsed it carefully so that everything lined up with the presentation he wanted to give. It was basically a powerpoint presentation.

  15. 1.7 million disappointed people by Smuttley · · Score: 1

    I wonder how many of those 1.7 million downloaded copies remained installed for longer than a few days.

    1. Re:1.7 million disappointed people by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I say 1.7 million glad people.

      As in "glad I downloaded this instead of actually dropping good money on it".

      So, Spore was in more than one way some advertisment for P2P acquisition of software...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:1.7 million disappointed people by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I wonder how many of those 1.7 million downloads were installed at all. After all, it takes a bit to get the few gigs this game has, and by then you usually know what you're into because of reviews hitting the street (or, rather, web pages).

      What I rather wonder is, how many of those 1.7 million downloads were actually completed?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  16. So piracy debate aside... by TOGSolid · · Score: 1

    Pro Evolution Soccer 2009 at #10?

    Man, talk about right outta left field.

    1. Re:So piracy debate aside... by HUKI365 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not really. PES is REAL popular in East Europe/Russia. In fact it takes a significant part of the market share in non-US markets. But unfortunately for them it is usually popular in places where pirating is also popular.

    2. Re:So piracy debate aside... by TOGSolid · · Score: 1

      Hurh, neato. I kinda miss when I lived in Germany and would get to check out all the big European titles that never got any play in the US. They had some really fun games over there. Granted, they were in German, but hey, not a bad way to learn another language when you're 10 years old, eh? Rambling aside, I'd love to see statistics (even if they would be nigh impossible to get) on how many people bought one of these games, and then pirated it anyway to get a version that actually works.

    3. Re:So piracy debate aside... by HUKI365 · · Score: 1

      Yah, be good to see those stats. Though PES is still a fully English, legit title that is published in your local Gamestop or whatever. Just doesn't have any legs (I mean, to be fair neither does FIFA in the States, but whatever.)

  17. No Correlation by JamesRose · · Score: 1

    It seems far more common sense that for the average guy downloading something that DRM has zero effect on whether he pirates. This is because the smart people who crack the game have removed the DRM anyway- and it doesn't matter how good the DRM is, they'll still remove it and release it completely free. So personally I'd look at the fact that Spore was a really interesting game concept that actually turned out to be a bit crap. It completely explains why people would download to try and then not go out and by it. The only real pattern we've seen with pirating media is, if the media is popular, it gets bought AND downloaded, if it's not popular its not bought OR downloaded.
    When I download a game, I expect the most I need to do is to run a keygen crack- now considering the variance in DRM protection, it doesn't seem like DRM is having that much effect.

    1. Re:No Correlation by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      It seems far more common sense that for the average guy downloading something that DRM has zero effect on whether he pirates. This is because the smart people who crack the game have removed the DRM anyway

      Nah, most of the time the DRM is cracked, not removed and it leads to the same DRM interfering with system issues as the legitimate version with the improved bit of being unable to update the DRM involved, leading to possible future stability issues.

      It's pretty funny to see so many people claiming to download certain games to get rid of the DRM stability issues (when there is no pirate version of the game without the DRM removed, just cracked), when in actual fact, they haven't.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  18. Funny by mqduck · · Score: 1

    This is ironic. Spore is the only game besides WOW that I *didn't* pirate and actually *payed* for in the last two years or so. Playing Spore without the online component sounds like missing the point to me.

    However, my DVD drive ended dying right when I got the game, so I downloaded the image via BitTorrent to install.

    --
    Property is theft.
  19. Re:(plus one 5Informative) by Nathrael · · Score: 1

    I really don't want to feel like the next grammar nazi that finds this post.

    --
    A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
  20. We should know better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But we should know better!

    It's like using the word hacker when you mean cracker. And it's just as bad as causualy using the word "theory".

    I think by accepting the missuse of the word you are just fueling "them". Be it RIAA, MPAA, the creationist crackpots, etc.

    1. Re:We should know better. by karstux · · Score: 1

      I think (software) piracy is actually starting to gain positive connotations. Just think of all the "pirate parties" that are being started all around the world.

      I think a pirate (the non-seafaring variant) is increasingly being seen as a technology-affine free-thinking individual who is concerned about privacy, sensible IP laws and non-intrusive government. Depp's portrayal of Captain Sparrow probably helped too. :)

      --
      Don't whistle while you're pissing.
  21. Statistics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Nice how you will always see statistics used in articles but they never go into detail how they generated the statistics. The article is entirely based on their own generated statistics yet there is no information how they generated them. Might as well be pulling the news from your... you get the idea..

  22. It's due to the DRM by jridley · · Score: 2, Informative

    People who know anything about that DRM wouldn't let SecureROM on their system, it has no business doing what it does to a system just to play a game.

    It's 100% certain they'd have had my money the day the game hit the streets if they didn't have DRM in it. As it is, no. Not ever. Not unless I can run it in a VM where it can't pillage my system, and AFAIK it doesn't run in a VM.

    And anyone who wants the game can easily get it in a clean pirated version.

    Counting just BitTorrent is undercounting too; usenet is a safer place to get stuff (not as trackable).

    1. Re:It's due to the DRM by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      The question is, if they released a DRM-free game for $50, would you buy it, or would you still download it? Nevermind, I think I know the answer to that question. But then, if there is no DRM, what would you use as an excuse for not paying for the game? I guess "It wasn't worth $50" is always a good fallback excuse. Too bad this isn't a haggling session. Your options are to pay the price or voice your displeasure by not obtaining the game. Believe me, if it sells poorly and there is no piracy, that sends a much more clear message then if it sells poorly, but there is a lot of piracy.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    2. Re:It's due to the DRM by Simmin · · Score: 1

      How about oblivion? It didn't even need a cd key on the PC. Was it a horrible failure?

    3. Re:It's due to the DRM by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Some games I can buy and download. That's the entire point of distribution systems like Steam.

      Seriously, though, I probably would have bought Spore if it hadn't been for the DRM. I'll never (knowingly) install games that use SecureRom and shit like it.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    4. Re:It's due to the DRM by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      How about oblivion? It didn't even need a cd key on the PC. Was it a horrible failure?

      I didn't play the game at all out of lack of interest - it failed to interest me.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    5. Re:It's due to the DRM by jridley · · Score: 1

      I would absolutely have bought it. I've bought many games for $50 in the past, and I actually was up at Amazon getting ready to order it when I read the reviews mentioning the DRM. I went out and read more about SecureROM and quickly decided against the purchase.
      Even now, if they rolled out a no-DRM copy, I'd buy it.

    6. Re:It's due to the DRM by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I actually was up at Amazon getting ready to order it when I read the reviews mentioning the DRM.
      So you read the biased reviews about how horrible the DRM is. They probably used words like "draconian" just like good old slashdot. But did you realize that some of what those reviews said was out-and-out lies? Did you know that my legal copy plays just fine with Daemon tools up and running? Did you know that I can run Spore without the CD in the tray?
      Unfortunately, the people who put negative reviews of questionable content on Amazon probably cost EA millions, and convinced many to illegally download it instead. If I was EA, I would be pissed.
      It's almost as bad as the media successfully campaigning for Obama.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    7. Re:It's due to the DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't play a lot of games anymore. But I still play a few. I would have purchased Spore had it not been for the DRM. I've dealt with too many system instabilities from products such as SecureRom and StarForce. I didn't pirate it either. I'm just skipping it.

      I like the WoW, Eve-Online model. Give me a short trial, and if I like it then I pay a monthly subscription with (sometimes) free additional content.

      With Eve-Online I ended up paying more than the typical $50 game price tag. Way more. With WoW, I didn't like it so I payed less.

      Games need to skip DRM and go to online models. Even if the game's not one which lends itself that way.

    8. Re:It's due to the DRM by jridley · · Score: 1

      My requirements for a game is that, when the game is NOT running, that no software that shipped with it are running, either. I don't want drivers, monitors, shell extensions, or anything else lurking around. When the game is running, they can do whatever they like, though I'm not really happy about them making under-the-covers contact with validation servers.
      From what I can gather about SecuROM, it does install stuff that is running all the time, whether the actual game is running or not.
      If that's not the case, please respond, cite the reference, and my kids will find Spore under the tree next week.

  23. Exactly !!! by DrYak · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Thanks for killing the games industry, you filthy thief.

    Yes, I second that !

    We need more suckers... huh, no... "customers" to fall for the brainwash... hu, sorry... for the marketing overhyping our product, and who will blindingly throw their money at whatever product we manage to persuade them will be the best-game-ever-even-better-than-blowjob-and-beacon-sammich !

    Our economy is dying because of all the filthy thieves who selfishly want to see what a game is worth before buying !

    --

    though, seriously, I actually found the game kind of cool.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Exactly !!! by theaveng · · Score: 5, Interesting

      >>>want to see what a game is worth before buying!

      I just got into a debate on a forum about this very subject. Unfortunately the Moderator is pro-copyright, and I earned myself a one-week banning. :-( My argument was: "I downloaded Galactica 1980 to see if it was worth buying, and it was worthless trash, so I saved myself from wasting ~$50." I was amazed at how many people rushed in to call me scum, part of the entitlement generation who steals instead of pays, and that I should have supported that show by buying the DVD.

      RIAA's propaganda campaign seems to be working. They even have customers claiming I should buy ____ like Galactica 1980!!!

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    2. Re:Exactly !!! by LandDolphin · · Score: 0

      Well, maybe not purchase, but you should have rented it instead of downloading it. You don't get to eat half a candy bar before you choose to purchase it.

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    3. Re:Exactly !!! by JesseL · · Score: 2, Informative

      What a shitty excuse for an analogy.

      Let me know when a candy bar can be infinitely duplicated and transported around the world at nearly zero cost.

      --
      "Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
    4. Re:Exactly !!! by LandDolphin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      True,

      analogies are not good, because they never translate perfectly.

      However, just because you are not physically taking something from the company, does not grant you the right to play it without paying for it. The company has the right to choose how they want to release the game. You ahve the right if you want to purchase it under those terms, or not play the game.

      If you don't like the terms they set for playing their game, then don't play their game. Believing you have the right to play their game, without adhering to their terms means you are part of the "entitlement generation"

      If people took a righteous stance against these companies, we would probably see a change in their behaviour.

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    5. Re:Exactly !!! by ivucica · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, if I bought a product, I should have a right to do whatever-the-fsck-I-want with it. If I get a candybar, I should be able to "copy" it however I want to. If I knew how, I would. And for computer data, I very well know how to do it.

      That's theoretical of course, reality is something different. But understand this: copyright and patents are not natural rights, they are granted by the society. They are rights to take away other people's freedoms. Copyright may have served books well, but in "digital millennium" they are barely enforceable and outdated anachronisms of a past era.

      If you can't control 1 billion Chinese and others from replicating a trademarked work, how will you control 6 billion Earthmen from replicating copyrighted work?

      Entitlement generation -- I love the expression, where'd ya pick it up? And I'm sad it won't come close soon.

      Let's face it, copyright serves so companies and people like me could earn money off their products. It's not a right, it's a tool. No, scratch that -- more like a toy. A toy that should be taken away from the babies.

    6. Re:Exactly !!! by arth1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I just got into a debate on a forum about this very subject. Unfortunately the Moderator is pro-copyright, and I earned myself a one-week banning.

      "Pro-copyright" doesn't mean what you use the expression for. FSF is pro-copyright. You need copyrights to protect openness.
      Perhaps he was an advocate of copyright-protection? That's a very different rat.

      Major digression:
      Personally, I'm strongly for strengthening copyrights. As in copyrights being made the inalienable and time-limited right of the creator, and not the sponsor. That would put the incentive back to create more, and not just exploit already created works of arts and science. It would shift the power from the big money to the artists, which I think was the original intent.
      Of course, it will never come to pass, as long as those with the money make the laws, and think it's perfectly fine that if they pay for a person's living expenses while he invents and creates, it's perfectly fine for them to take all profits of what's invented or created. Me, I call that exploitation, and just the modern form of slavery.

      Back on topic:
      DRM is not about protecting copyrights. It's about the appearance to protect copyrights. It's a CYA measure. If a game doesn't sell well, the company can blame piracy. And the investors will believe it, especially if the protection mechanisms were draconian but still broken. They don't see that the reasons it was broken was because it was so draconian, and the reason it didn't sell well was because it was a crappy game.

      Ask a pro-protection why Galactic Civilizations II is so much more successful than Spore. The answers will be interesting, but try not to giggle too much; it's not polite.

    7. Re:Exactly !!! by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you bought a loaf of bread, got home and discovered it had weevils in the center of it, you'd return it to the store wouldn't you? And the store would exchange it or give you your money back. You were sold something that did not live up to your expectations.

      You buy a game, and even if it doesn't work, you can't return it.

      And yet it seems the industries that produce this effluence, and movies and music, have convinced the world that if you buy a piece of what should be unsellable garbage, you're screwed.

      THIS is why piracy is so rife. It has nothing to do with people being cheap, scum or whatever asinine insult is thrown around. It has far more to do with people being sick to death of being ripped off.

    8. Re:Exactly !!! by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 1

      I am an ARDENT Stardock fan, but please back up your claim that Gal Civ is "more successful" than Spore. I bought the game and both expansions, but there is NO WAY that game has sold more copies than Spore. (Given I think Spore's sales are in the millions and Gal Civ if I recall hasn't broken a million.)

    9. Re:Exactly !!! by servognome · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But understand this: copyright and patents are not natural rights, they are granted by the society.

      All rights are.

      They are rights to take away other people's freedoms. Copyright may have served books well, but in "digital millennium" they are barely enforceable and outdated anachronisms of a past era.

      Copyrights are seen as a necessary evil to encourage risk taking where there is a high cost to create but low cost to duplicate. And yes, I do realize that people will still create culture even when there are no copyright protections, but the quality will suffer due to resource restrictions.
      I guess we should also give up on managing SPAM, identity theft, DNA profiling, etc. since in the information age it's easy to do and barely enforcable.

      Let's face it, copyright serves so companies and people like me could earn money off their products. It's not a right, it's a tool. No, scratch that -- more like a toy. A toy that should be taken away from the babies.

      A tool like the ability to vote, or getting judged by your peers. These things, like copyright, are not necessary parts of a functioning society, but they have been demonstrated to improve the quality of life. That said, the "babies" have gotten out of control moving the balance between the creator and public too far in favor of the creator. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, reevaluate the implementation of copyright, don't just abandon the idea.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    10. Re:Exactly !!! by travbrad · · Score: 1

      "That said, the "babies" have gotten out of control moving the balance between the creator and public too far in favor of the creator."

      Yep. The music industry is really bad in that way. The 'balance' is clearly favoring the middle-man, not even the creator (nor the public)

    11. Re:Exactly !!! by ivucica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thing is, large portion of the society actively dislikes copyright. Authors are a minority. Spammers and identity thieves are also a disliked minority. Most definitely authors are not criminals, but making governments listen to their every whim in an effort to save "money milk factories"? No thanks.

      What happens to the "free market" thing? If publishing music and software without copyright and DRM is not profitable, then people should just switch to farming. Western city-dwellers speak of how there's not enough food in the world, there's not enough oil in the world, but none of them desires to farm the land and enjoys driving the cars.

      Free market and lack of copyright would destroy music/software publishing industries, and probably only book printing industry would survive since they actually manufacture physical stuff.

      Although I'm presenting a completely anti-copyright opinion here, that's not the entire opinion I hold. I'm aware that programmers like me would have no food on the table in case copyright system was completely disrupted today. Copyright-less world is, from today's perspective, completely utopistic. But justice is often utopistic.

    12. Re:Exactly !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      However, just because you are not physically taking something from the company, does not grant you the right to play it without paying for it.

      Except, if a rental of Battlestar 1980 is a preferred solution, you're still not paying the copyright holder. You're paying Blockbuster or whoever for a service you don't need, out of an unnecessary sense of obligation.

    13. Re:Exactly !!! by damiangerous · · Score: 1

      How does one define success? Profit or pure number of copies sold? Spore reportedly cost around $35 million to develop, while GalCiv II had a budget of less than $1 million. Will Spore bring in 35 times the sales of GalCiv II? I very much doubt it. GalCiv II had sold about 300,000 copies as of March (see link above) and Spore's sales are at least one million, but less than two. Looking at those numbers, Spore seems more like a failure, despite it's sales.

    14. Re:Exactly !!! by servognome · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thing is, large portion of the society actively dislikes copyright. Authors are a minority. Spammers and identity thieves are also a disliked minority.

      Society dislikes a lot of things, doesn't mean those groups don't deserve legal protections. The majority has consistently pushed to abolish free speech, regulate private matters, and tried impose it's ideals, with only Constitutional law to keep its whims in check.
      I would argue in the digital age, intellectual property creators are a significant minority that can't be ignored. Manufacturing, even for physical objects, has become trivial. Anybody can make an MP3 player, computer chip, cell phone, or toy extremely cheaply - what is valuable is the design, which is not cheap to create.

      What happens to the "free market" thing? If publishing music and software without copyright and DRM is not profitable, then people should just switch to farming. Western city-dwellers speak of how there's not enough food in the world, there's not enough oil in the world, but none of them desires to farm the land and enjoys driving the cars.

      The masses will always complain. They will say schools aren't good enough, yet not want their taxes increased; they say they don't earn enough money, yet pay $5 for a latte. Western societies are built to be "unhappy," which is one of the reason they have progressed so much more in terms of technology. As Adam Smith noted - there are unlimited wants, so the wants satiated by every bit of progress will be replaced by new ones.

      Free market and lack of copyright would destroy music/software publishing industries, and probably only book printing industry would survive since they actually manufacture physical stuff.

      Which would be a sad loss, not just for individuals in software and music, but for society which loses the ideas and culture from specialized creators.

      Taking a step back. Lets say Spore had perfect DRM and very few could afford it, what is lost? All that is lost is the spreading of ideas which can lead to new ones. There really is no clear concrete loss, civilization won't collapse. On the flip side without copyright you lose investment, and viability of specialization which means Spore isn't created and you end up with the similar results. Now if the creator and public compromise, as is the intent of copyright law, you can end up with a win-win. The author has incentive to invest (time & money) in creating knowing they have the opportunity to recover that investment, but at some point their creation must be freed to the public so that the social gain can be fully realized.

      As I said, this compromise has been perverted to move too far in favor of personal gain for the creator. The problems with DRM at the time of release (an annoyance) is far less a worry than the problems with DRM down the road when the work is supposed to be public and can't be accessed (a breach of the original agreeement). Unfortunately people on both sides of the argument as well as legislators lose perspective on the original intent of copyright, a compromise between an individual and society to promote progress, and gravitate towards the extreme they like best.

      The system needs to be fixed, not abandoned.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    15. Re:Exactly !!! by theaveng · · Score: 1

      GALACTICA 1980 IS A PIECE OF SHIT AND NOT WORTH EVEN A 5 DOLLAR RENTAL. I have a right to not throw away money on junk. You'll understand btter when you actually have to work for a living instead of relying on the bank of mommy & daddy for your money. I would have hated to have thrown-away even a single penny on the Galactica 1980 excrement.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    16. Re:Exactly !!! by blai · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, I "tested out" the game and found it lame. I guess the economy is also driven by suckers who want to try the games, and can't return the games they bought.

      --
      In soviet Russia, God creates you!
    17. Re:Exactly !!! by LandDolphin · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You are obviously trolling, but I'll bite.

      It might be not worth watching, I'm certainly not going to watch it. But that does not mean it is ok to watch it without paying for it.

      I have a right to not throw away money on junk.

      you are right, you have the right not to watch it in the first place. Just because it is crap, does not mean you get to watch it for free.

      As for the attacks of working for a living vs. having things paid for you. That does not change that if you want to watch something, you should pay for it. Just because you have to spend your own money instead of someone elses does not mean that it is ok to download things without paying for them. (BTW, I am not a child at home, so once again your arguement is moot).

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    18. Re:Exactly !!! by narcberry · · Score: 1

      I was amazed at how many people rushed in to call me scum, part of the entitlement generation who steals instead of pays, and that I should have supported that show by buying the DVD.

      RIAA's propaganda campaign seems to be working. They even have customers claiming I should buy ____ like Galactica 1980!!!

      And yet it's still stealing...

      You know there are other options. You can rent, ask a friend, watch it on tv, or read reviews online. Those are all legal options to get a sneak peak into whether you want a product. But stealing is stealing, no matter how rich the guy is your stealing from, or how many starving orphans you fed with your DVD.

      --
      Modding me -1 troll doesn't make me wrong.
    19. Re:Exactly !!! by narcberry · · Score: 1

      Yet well made digital products are stolen too, so I don't think your argument holds water. I think it's "so rife" because it's easy, fast and anonymous.

      --
      Modding me -1 troll doesn't make me wrong.
    20. Re:Exactly !!! by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      I think it's precisely because authors and most content creators of whatever particular kind are in the minority are why we should protect them. If everyone was creating great content for everyone else to enjoy, such protections wouldn't be necessary. Since only a minority actually are, we should make sure that there is incentive to keep those who want to take a risk creating something, otherwise they may decide to do something else. I'd rather someone who is capable to write a good book rather than go farming.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    21. Re:Exactly !!! by gad_zuki! · · Score: 1

      >no... "customers" to fall for the brainwash... hu, sorry... for the marketing overhyping our product, and who will blindingly throw their money at whatever product we manage to persuade them will be the best-game-ever-even-better-than-blowjob-and-beacon-sammich !

      Corporations dont control you. What about some real personal responsibility? If people refuse to read reviews and spend their money wisely, then they are wrong and need to start acting like responsible adults. Dont blame advertising. Youre supposed to be critical of it. Shame so many arent.

    22. Re:Exactly !!! by theaveng · · Score: 1, Insightful

      >>> All rights are granted by the society.

      False. There are some rights that are a *natural* consequence of being a human being. Such as the right to not be enslaved, or the right to use your brain, or the right to speak your thoughts, or the right of self-defense against thieves/murderers. *Study Greek, Roman, and Scottish philosophy.*

      And as a result of those rights being natural, they come from within each individual. Both natural rights and power comes from the people and is devolved upon government with our consent... not the other way around.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    23. Re:Exactly !!! by theaveng · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>>But that does not mean it is ok to watch it without paying for it.

      Disagree. EVERY customer has a right to either (1) testdrive the product prior to purchase or (2) return the product if it's crap. Since the media does not allow number 2, I choose number 1. I download it first, I try it, and if it's any good then I buy it.

      I find it unacceptable that media companies won't allow people to do what even car stealerships will allow (a free testdrive). It's as if they are afraid their product sucks so badly that it won't sell so they br you from even a cursory glance. Which means I would have thrown-away $50 for Galactica 1980.

      Also I don't think I'm "trolling".
      I'm expressing an opinion that just happens to be contrary to your own.
      Please recognize the difference & respect my right to disagree with you without being insulted.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    24. Re:Exactly !!! by Lachlan+Hunt · · Score: 0

      There's nothing inherently wrong with the try-before-you-buy approach. In fact, many software developers offer free demos for just that purpose. If there was such a demo available, and it wasn't so overly restrictive in terms of game play, then ethically, the right thing to do is to download that instead. If there isn't one available, then I think pirating the game with the intention of either buying it or trashing it, and actually following through, is a reasonable alternative, even if it is frowned upon by the industry.

      It's been known for a long time that piracy can lead to more sales. It's why music sales increased when Napster was running, and decreased when it got killed. And it's why many book sellers are offering free digital copies and seeing increased sales of printed versions.

      --
      By reading this signature, you hereby agree with the content of the above comment.
    25. Re:Exactly !!! by Nagrom · · Score: 1

      It doesn't need to sell 35x as many copies, it just needs to sell enough to cover that additional $34m deficit. Besides, EA make a lot of money off each copy they sell, consdering they're generally the publisher, distributor and developer. Was Gal Civ II even a full price title?

    26. Re:Exactly !!! by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Those people are jealous, because they are too stupid to pirate.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    27. Re:Exactly !!! by Stan92057 · · Score: 0

      They already release Videos of game play,they also release small playable versions of games, they also release beta versions. so your argument is moot on blindly spending money on games. There is no reason no matter how you sugar coat it to steal games,period!

      --
      Jack of all trades,master of none
    28. Re:Exactly !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " But understand this: copyright and patents are not natural rights, they are granted by the society.

      All rights are."

      No, I have the right to speak. No law grants me that right. Laws can enshrine that right so someone else can't try to stop me.

      Murder exists because of the death of someone else, not merely because we have a law against murder.

      Copyrights only exist because law makes it exist.

      And works were created without copyright, so there's no need for them either.

      Epically wrong on a cosmic scale.

    29. Re:Exactly !!! by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I am an ARDENT Stardock fan, but please back up your claim that Gal Civ is "more successful" than Spore. I bought the game and both expansions, but there is NO WAY that game has sold more copies than Spore. (Given I think Spore's sales are in the millions and Gal Civ if I recall hasn't broken a million.)

      Obviously I need to define "more successful".
      The sheer number of copies sold doesn't make a game successful. You have to subtract the distribution costs, and then divide by the combined development, marketing and support budgets.

      If your game cost $35 million to develop, $5 million to market and a support/postprod budget of $10 million, selling two million copies means that each game sold has to net $25 after distribution costs for it to be profitable.
      On the other hand, if your game cost $900,000 to develop, $400,000 to market and $300,000 to support, selling 300,000 copies means that each copy only has to net $5.35 after distribution costs for it to be profitable.

      Spore is in the first category, and can be labeled a failure.
      Galactic Civilization II is in the second category, and can be labeled a success.

      In addition to this, you are also building a rep, and how pleased people are with your current product will affect future sales of different products. If what people remember is that the copy protection made the game unplayable, chances are slimmer that they'll buy your next game. You have in effect created negative marketing for the next product. On the other hand, if they remember that the game was great, and you could even "lend" it to another family member to install, chances are greater that you'll buy the next one. Your expenditure now counts towards the marketing for the next game.

    30. Re:Exactly !!! by LrdDimwit · · Score: 1

      Beacon sammich? I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your whaling list.

    31. Re:Exactly !!! by LandDolphin · · Score: 1

      Your analogy does not work, because they are two vastly different products.

      At the end of the day, they have a product and you may or may not want that product. Sure, it is a gamble. You might purchase, or rent, something that you don't like. You don't have to take the gamble. You can forgo viewing their product if you don't like the gamble. But it is their product, and you don't automatically have a right to it. You can live life without their product.

      The troll was not the opinion you expressed, but the manor in which you expressed it. You mention be not insulting you by sayign your post was a troll, but your post directly insulted me because I have a difference in opinion then you. I did not "insult" your opinion, I called the way you expressed your opinion what I thought it was, a troll. If it was not a troll, then sorry. I might add that you would better express yourself by not attacking people.

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    32. Re:Exactly !!! by theaveng · · Score: 1

      I have a right to testdrive a car before laying-down my money.

      Similarly I should have a right to testdrive Galactica 1980 or any other tv show, prior to laying down $50-100 to buy it. Alternatively, I should have the right to ask for refund when I discover it's crap.

      The current system where you have to buy something to discover its crap, and have no choice but to be stuck with that loss of funds, is bullshit. No other industry works on that principle and neither should the TV show or gaming industry.

      .

      Finally, I can not lay my hands on any part where I insulted you. You're making a strawman argument.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    33. Re:Exactly !!! by LandDolphin · · Score: 1

      You'll understand btter when you actually have to work for a living instead of relying on the bank of mommy & daddy for your money.

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    34. Re:Exactly !!! by novakyu · · Score: 1

      "Pro-copyright" doesn't mean what you use the expression for. FSF is pro-copyright. You need copyrights to protect openness.
      Perhaps he was an advocate of copyright-protection? That's a very different rat.

      Maybe I'm just projecting my personal beliefs onto an organization that I support, but I don't think FSF is "pro-copyright".

      FSF is "pro-copyleft".

      And, before you say that copyleft is a form of copyright and therefore pro-copyleft is pro-copyright, I would beg to differ: the need for copyleft exists because we have vastly unfair copyright laws. We need copyleft to cancel the deleterious effects of copyright and restore the freedom of users. Without copyright we wouldn't need copyleft.

      As for keeping things "open", well, I don't think that's ever really been the main goal of FSF (e.g. FSF doesn't advocate that anything anyone ever wrote should be published. It just advocates that if it is published, it should be published under a free license), but without the freedom-stealing copyright, I would hope we can rely on human decency (e.g. developers who have access to source code, who are now free from restrictions of copyright and perhaps NDAs) for propagating works that are generally useful to others.

      Personally, I believe copyright shouldn't exist (or, if it is retained, only in a severely limited form, in particular with respect to the duration---absolutely nothing longer than 5 years, no renewals, no extensions beyond that). It creates unnatural "property rights" and interferes with the market forces (in particular, the labor market). But, this is obviously for another discussion.

    35. Re:Exactly !!! by servognome · · Score: 2, Interesting

      False. There are some rights that are a *natural* consequence of being a human being. Such as the right to not be enslaved, or the right to use your brain, or the right to speak your thoughts, or the right of self-defense against thieves/murderers. *Study Greek, Roman, and Scottish philosophy.*

      *Study modern philosophy*
      If natural rights really are fundamental, why does the list of them differ from person to person?
      The fundamental problem with the idea of natural rights is that they are either derived from a moral (this is what's good), or theological (endowed by the creator) sources; neither of which can be well defined. If rights are truly based on the nature of humans then that would mean that infringing upon them would result in an unstable state which cannot be maintained. However, history has shown long-lasting stable societies where members actively supported slavery, intellectual and physical persecution.

      And as a result of those rights being natural, they come from within each individual. Both natural rights and power comes from the people and is devolved upon government with our consent... not the other way around.

      If rights truly came from the individual, then rights and responsibilities would come via an "opt in" method. However, we see the opposite as the case, the default state is for society to impose on the individual rights and responsibilities. If there is dispute about the list of rights, it is not until society comes to agreement (often through violent conflict) that the new rights are granted. Property rights, free speech, slavery, due process, taxation, if you want to define it as "natural" or not ... it really doesn't matter what gets agreed upon, what is important and what leads to social stability is the agreement itself.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    36. Re:Exactly !!! by FloydTheDroid · · Score: 1

      It's more successful because it's better than Dianetics. Now please tell all your friends how this game being DRM free has changed your life and buy ten more copies.

    37. Re:Exactly !!! by novakyu · · Score: 1

      But understand this: copyright and patents are not natural rights, they are granted by the society.

      All rights are.

      No. Some property rights are NATURAL that we should have it. For example, it is natural that I should have ownership of a pencil on my desk. It is in my possession, I can easily exclude others from using it, and if others use it, I can't use it. Regarding physical objects, we have a very natural property rights where taking those rights away (such as in communism) would be highly unusual.

      But the strange idea that one should own his words (or, in this case, some lines of code that he wrote) didn't arise until modern times (17th century or so), and while not everything new should be criticized, it is a strong evidence that "intellectual property rights" are highly unusual and unnatural.

      One can make arguments whether this highly strange, man-made property "right" is necessary (as you do, which I don't agree with, by the way, or at least, I don't think existing copyright law really encourages creation of new work and/or benefits the public---if this is the true intent, we should first do away with retroactive copyright extensions and the life of the author + 65 years crap), but it should be acknowledged that this is something completely separate and different from the normal property rights.

      If we don't, we get nonsense slogans like "copying is theft", and we have stupid people believing in this ridiculous propaganda.

    38. Re:Exactly !!! by servognome · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No. Some property rights are NATURAL that we should have it. For example, it is natural that I should have ownership of a pencil on my desk. It is in my possession, I can easily exclude others from using it, and if others use it, I can't use it. Regarding physical objects, we have a very natural property rights where taking those rights away (such as in communism) would be highly unusual.

      Physical property rights are based on cultural views, not some fundamental natural fact. There have been socities where the idea of excluding the rest of the group from using a tool would be foreign. The success of property owning societies does not mean it is the "natural" state of things. While class cultures are dominant because they better promote technological and economical advancement, it does not dismiss the existence of viable communal societies throughout human history.

      But the strange idea that one should own his words (or, in this case, some lines of code that he wrote) didn't arise until modern times (17th century or so), and while not everything new should be criticized, it is a strong evidence that "intellectual property rights" are highly unusual and unnatural.

      Technology is the driving force in challenging and forcing social change. The strange idea that people should own things didn't arise until the excesses created by the domestication of plants and animals. When technology got to the point that humans no longer needed to share everything with their band to survive, new ideas like property ownership and social classes developed. Before the written word, there was no idea of an original author whose name was associated with the story. There was no need since the retelling of stories were all essentially derivative works, with as much influence from the speaker as the original teller.
      So it isn't that strange that with the invention of the printing press new social agreements would *naturally* arise.

      I don't think existing copyright law really encourages creation of new work and/or benefits the public---if this is the true intent, we should first do away with retroactive copyright extensions and the life of the author + 65 years crap

      I would say current copyright law does encourage the creation of new works, but I would agree that the same can be accomplished with more limited protections (on the order of 5-10 years). Other significant changes are necessary to place the law in better balance since the public benefit portion of the compromise has all but been ignored.

      If we don't, we get nonsense slogans like "copying is theft", and we have stupid people believing in this ridiculous propaganda.

      The propaganda on both sides of the debate won't go away. Like any complex issue where there is really no perfect answer, those pushing their agenda will try to sway the uneducated masses with emotion. The only way to combat such tactics is to educate people so they can engage in informed debate and make decisions (either way) - which of course is easier said than done.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    39. Re:Exactly !!! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You buy a game, and even if it doesn't work, you can't return it.

      This is not true in the UK, we have "Sale of Goods" Acts which means that anything you buy must be fit for purpose.

      That doesn't mean you can return something just because you don't like it, but if it genuinely doesn't work the shop has to do something about it.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    40. Re:Exactly !!! by azadrozny · · Score: 1

      Disagree. EVERY customer has a right to either (1) testdrive the product prior to purchase or (2) return the product if it's crap. Since the media does not allow number 2, I choose number 1. I download it first, I try it, and if it's any good then I buy it.

      You do not have a right to test or return anything. Most businesses offer these options to their customers because it is good for their business. Most people will not drop serious money on items like a car or TV without being able to see it work before hand, so they offer a test drive option. A good restaurant will permit you to send something back, or they may comp. your meal if you don't like it, but they are not required to do so.

      I agree that media companies are taking advantage of the current rules, but you have other options before you buy a movie. You could read a review or watch the trailer to name two.

    41. Re:Exactly !!! by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 1

      You seem to throw the word 'right' around a lot. I know you think there are 'natural rights' (which has since been shot down numerous times above), but I'm very curious how you define a 'right'.

      It seems to me that you're of the opinion that anything you want to do is a right. Or perhaps you're basing it on morals, which is basically the same thing and just as dangerous.

      In your example above, you claim you have a right to test drive a car before you buy it. This is incorrect. The car is owned by the dealership, as is the property on which it sits. They *allow* you to test drive it, on their terms, because they understand most people wouldn't pay that much money for something unless they made sure it fit their personal tastes. Do not mistake somebody allowing you to do something as a personal right you have.

      If you want to test this out, dress like a homeless person and ask to test drive an expensive BMW. I bet you'll find out fairly quickly that you actually don't even have the right to step foot on their showroom floor.

    42. Re:Exactly !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a right to testdrive a car before laying-down my money.

      Sorry, but neither test driving a car nor "test driving" digital media is a "right" that you have. Test driving a car is a privilege granted to you by the car dealership as an incentive to get you to purchase the car from them. The dealer has every right to deny you the test drive if they feel that there is a risk you will steal or damage the car.

      For TV/movies/software, there are plenty of legal ways to make a buy/no-buy decision on a product such as demos, informed reviews, borrowing from a friend, checking out from a library, etc. Just because it is easy to duplicate does not mean that it's right for you to illegitimately copy these things so you can "try" them first and decide later if you want to purchase them. And guess what, if you do make an uniformed decision and get stuck with a crap product, you're NOT stuck with a loss of funds. You DO have the right to sell the product off to another uninformed sucker for whatever price you can convince them to pay. It's known as the doctrine of first sale, and almost EVERY industry works on this principle, including gaming and TV.

    43. Re:Exactly !!! by Qliphah · · Score: 1

      Most theaters will give you your money back if you leave within a reasonable time frame. This isn't limited to the movie being out of focus, or crappy sound. No, if you are not satisfied and can't sit through 30 minutes with out dry heaving you are obliged to complain and be reimbursed fully. Now take this to a PC game, can't even install? Tough you technically licensed it so it can't be returned. DVD, movie was utter tripe? Hope you can at least return with 15% restock. Even consumer electronics are the same. If your unsatisfied, or in worst case it doesn't work you're out of luck the majority of the time. Satisfaction guaranteed died a long time ago.

    44. Re:Exactly !!! by Hellpop · · Score: 1

      Who the Hell are you that you don't have a friend who owns it that you could borrow it from?
      You sure don't belong on Slashdot, by crikey! No geek worth his weight doesn't know someone who owns this fecal gem!

      --
      "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything."
    45. Re:Exactly !!! by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      I bought GalCiv II when I learned of their excellent policy on DRM.

      From my receipt e-mail,

      "GalCiv II: Ultimate Bundle Pack (Digital Download)
      $59.95 Quantity: 1"

      --
      It's been a long time.
    46. Re:Exactly !!! by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      I can think of one reason:

      It's easy, and I don't like EA anyway.

      Not that I steal games. Back in the Napster days I realised I didn't want to give entities I don't like mind-share by using their products, even illegally.

      That said, if you're a company selling easily stolen luxuries, you MUST NOT shit where you eat. Treat your customers(The people with money, who give you said money for products) well, and they'll reciprocate. Shit on them, and they won't be your customers for long.

      I could hop on a plane to Europe, buy a laptop while I'm there, find a wifi hotspot, and Valve will give me access to Half-life 2 despite never getting anything from me but my username and password. By contrast, I can only install it 3 times? Guess who I'm giving my money to?

      --
      It's been a long time.
    47. Re:Exactly !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By contrast I can only install SPORE 3 times? Guess who I'm giving my money to?

    48. Re:Exactly !!! by Snaller · · Score: 1

      I have seen no evidence that we *NEED* copyright. Perhaps somethings would not be possible, perhaps they would be possible in different ways. Either way, i'm sure we'd survive as a people. Copyright is a new invention, and I've seen no reason to think it has any long lasting value.

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    49. Re:Exactly !!! by msouth · · Score: 1

      But understand this: copyright and patents are not natural rights, they are granted by the society.

      All rights are.

      No, no, no, no, no!

      The government in America is granted certain powers by the people. The government does not grant us our rights.

      Read the Famous Constitution.

      --
      Liberty uber alles.
  24. Standard excuses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Standard excuses for not paying for this or any other game (pick any that apply):

    1) I will pirate it first and then pay only if I like it (a la when I go into a restaurant and only pay when I liked the food, or go to the theater to see a film and pay only if it didn't suck). If the game is not PERFECT, I don't pay.
    2) My pirating is good for the software developer (more people playing, even without paying is good, it gives them lots of free publicity). Piracy increases sales! I am doing them a HUGE favor.
    3) I am a cheap ass.
    4) There is no such thing as copyright (or shouldn't be). Other people should create art, music, games, films, and entertainment for me as a favor and fund it out of their own pocket.
    5) Piracy is a fact in the gaming world. Get used to it. It's the developer's own fault because they should have taken it into account in their business case (besides, they should have been working on this full time as an open source program for free anyway).
    6) $50 for this game is too much. Come to think of it, $25 is too. And if it is only $10, then pirating it shouldn't be that much of a burden to the developer.
    7) I do not want to try the demo because the only meaningful way to try out a game is to try out the ENTIRE game.
    8) Who cares if there is 99.9% piracy, all the developers need is to make just enough money to fund developing another game. They don't need to get rich (after all, I'm not).
    9) "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
    10) Because I have never had to create, develop and market a game and I don't have a clue as to what it takes to run a business.
    11) Because DRM is such a great excuse.

    1. Re:Standard excuses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What was that? I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. I was too busy living off of your tax dollar. Man, this free ride sure is great!

    2. Re:Standard excuses by jd142 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Regarding point 1:

      If I go to a restaurant and the food is bad, I can get a refund. If I walk out of a movie, I can get a refund. If I buy a book, I can return it. And for that matter, when I go to a bookstore I can actually read the book on the shelf and decide if it is crap before I buy it.

      You may get all or a part of your money back depending on the situation or you may get store credit, but the point is that there is a mechanism in place for refunding all or part of the expense on those items if they are crap.

      Software is one of the very few things that is almost impossible to return if the box has been opened. Here a few returns policies:

      http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?type=page&contentId=1117177044087&id=cat12098 - "Opened computer software, movies, music and video games can be exchanged for the identical item but cannot be returned for a refund."

      http://www.newegg.com/HelpInfo/FAQDetail.aspx?Module=5 - "Retail Boxed software may only be returned for refund within 30 days of the invoice date if the packaging is unopened and factory sealed. Opened retail boxed software can only be returned for replacement if it is defective or damaged."

      Amazon has probably the best software return policy: "Any CD, DVD, VHS tape, software, video game, cassette tape, or vinyl record that has been opened (taken out of its plastic wrap): 50% of item's price." http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=901926&#amount

    3. Re:Standard excuses by theaveng · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fortunately credit card laws are written to protect the consumer, so there are ways to get around that policy. Here's my favorite method:

      - Buy something. It's junk.
      - Return the item to the company using tracking or delivery confirmation.
      - Wait a month.
      - Call you credit company and ask to do a chargeback. Provide the DC number as proof the item was returned.
      - Get money refunded to your card.

      Easy.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    4. Re:Standard excuses by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Most companies treat "chargeback" as fraudulent orders. You might be inviting police attention.

      YOu should always go with the company return policy first. Use chargeback only as the last resort.

    5. Re:Standard excuses by theaveng · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes of course the chargeback should be last resort, to be used only when the corporate asses refuse to issue a refund.

      As for the police issue, I've not had any problems so far. (1) Most companies are located out-of-state so I'm not within their jurisdiction and (2) it's not worth the cost of filing court documents/hiring a lawyer for a $100 or less item. The company just lets it go and chalks it up to "shrinkage".

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    6. Re:Standard excuses by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not to mention all those things you can be reasonably sure you can actually use: You can eat the food, you can watch the movie, you can read the book. I for one am seriously fucking sick of paying the crazy money for a new game that I am WAY over the minimum system requirements for and then have the damned game eat it 10 minutes in if it even runs at all and having to wait a year+(if you ever get a patch at all) that fixes their shit code.

      And please don't say "run the demo" because that is BS and we all know it. The demo level is ALWAYS the most well tested and stable piece of code in the game, often having been passed out since before beta stage to try and drum up a buzz. A couple of examples from my own experience: Max Payne and Vampire:Bloodlines. The demos played like a dream and were really fun so I bought the games when first released. That was a BIG mistake. Max Payne had to set in my closet for 9 months thanks to a bug that would crash to desktop halfway through the second level. And Vampire:Bloodlines would have ended up in the trash if the modding community hadn't put out a patch a year and a half later that fixed my bug that was less than 30 minutes in that caused it to freeze the entire PC solid.

      And finally as a PC repairman I can't count how many times I have been called on to fix a "virus infection" that ended up being SecuROM, Starforce, or Safedisc. Frankly the new DRM causes more problems that a freaking Trojan. I have had machines that risked burning up the DVD burner because the DRM would keep throwing it into PIO mode, Had every singe burn in Nero fail because the DRM had screwed the Windows drivers, and more random crashes than I can even count. So before I will even pick up a game in the bargain bin I make damned sure I can get a clean copy from P2P. How sad is it that the risk of an infection from the P2P ISO is less than if you bought it at the store.

      So they can bitch and moan all the want. I will NOT be buying anymore games at release time thanks to the inability to return code that doesn't work, I will NOT buy any game that I can't find a clean version of so I can avoid the DRM infection on my PC, and I will NOT buy any more games from EA for their completely overboard asshat DRM. And this is from someone who ALWAYS bought a new C&C or MoH. So congratulations! You have mistreated yet another customer to the point they wouldn't buy from you if you entire catalog was on sale for $1.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    7. Re:Standard excuses by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      For some games, you can rent them to try them out. If it's a bad game, then you lose five or ten dollars. If it's good, you lose five or ten dollars. And the developers don't even see an appreciable portion of this money.

    8. Re:Standard excuses by Fourier404 · · Score: 1

      You have two options: 1) No DRM 2) Ability to return games You can choose only one, and it should be obvious why.

    9. Re:Standard excuses by LandDolphin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Jurisdiction would not be an issue, because once it crosses state lines it is an FBI issue. Seeign as it involves the mail, it could also be a Post Master issue. Two groups that you'd rather not deal with.

      However, returning a product for a refund and charging back once said refund is not received is not an issue. Specially as you satted, most of the items are low dollar amount.

      Having worked for a company that disputed chargebacks, you are right. It is usually not worth disputing small dollar amount chargebacks because there are fee's that you have to pay when someone files a chargeback. If you dispute it, and they refile the charge back, you've doubled your fee's. Many companies will not dispute small dollar amount charges to avoid the extra fee's. Plus, so few people know about filling chargebacks that it is not much of an issue for many businesses.

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    10. Re:Standard excuses by LandDolphin · · Score: 1

      When you file a chargeback, you specify the reason for a chargeback. Under these circumstances you would file for failure to refund and you would attach your documentation that you returned the product.

      This could easily be disputed by the company, all they have to do is send a copy of the return policy back to the credit card company and have the chargeback reversed.

      However, as I stated in another post. They get a $10~$30 fee for each chargeback, and you can chargeback for the same charge more then once. And if you continue to dispute the chargeback, then you have to go to a form of mediation, where the card company (Visa, MC) choose who is in the right. But doing that costs $250+. So, for a low dollar amount charge, many companies will just let the chargeback slide.

      Discover and American Express are a little different, and will almost always take the card holders side in the issue. So, if you are purchasing something that you want to possible return later, use and American Express card.

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    11. Re:Standard excuses by DMalic · · Score: 1

      Why are you listing communist rhetoric as part of the anti-copyright position's foundation? To the best of my knowledge, the government giving certain individuals and companies temporary guaranteed monopolies over a product fits the Soviet Union more than it ever did the US.

    12. Re:Standard excuses by Omestes · · Score: 1, Informative

      Not for PC games. I recently got a laptop with a dubious graphics card, and wanted to see if I could play a couple games (Spore among them), and found that there is absolutely no way to actually see if I could play them. One of the game sites has a utility that supposedly checks for this, but it returns different hardware values every time I run it.

      Basically, the only legal way I can see if a game is playable is to give them $50 and pray.

      This excuse doesn't work for movies, since you can just rent them. Sometimes. Can't use Netflix at my apartment (small small mailboxes, and an untrustworthy office where the incoming packages are left in the open), and Blockbuster sucks for the type of movies I enjoy (old, not bestsellers, limited releases, foreign, or possibly not meeting their prude standards). But 90% of them time rental works to see if your buying something worthwhile.

      Music is harder to check. Yes, you can hear the radioworthy single (which often sounds nothing like the rest of the album). Yes, iTunes and Amazon, and often Last.fm lets you listen to a random 10 second selection from random songs, of random bands, but it still is rather hard to tell if it is worth money or not.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    13. Re:Standard excuses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, what kind of shitty computer are you using?

      I've never had a single problem from safedisc or any of those programs, Max Payne ran flawlessly on my computer from the day I bought it, the only drive I've ever had go into PIO mode was when the disk was scratched so it read-errored too many times, and I've never had to "sit on a game for a year" to wait for some patch to come and fix it.

      Maybe your problem isn't the games....

    14. Re:Standard excuses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This works very well when you buy something with cash.

    15. Re:Standard excuses by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I had that "every disk fail to burn" crap happen thanks to Starforce. Disks hadn't actually failed, only Windows thought they had due to Starforce. Tossed loads of disks that I figured were bad, probably $20+ worth, before I learned about Starforce and started checking the disks on another system and discovered they were actually fine.

      I'm never buying a game on release day again unless it's from a developer I trust. (Stardock for example.) GTA IV is the latest example of customers being absolutely screwed, treated like dirt, and generally being abused.

    16. Re:Standard excuses by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 1

      I have only ever found ONE place that rented PC games. Sadly it was miles and miles away and really hard to get too. Went there once.

      I can't rent movies. Small mailboxes and idiot postman negate Netflix style arrangements. The only video rental store near me has closed down. There's a Blockbuster about 30 minutes walk away, but they're very small and only have mainstream stuff.

      And iTunes lets you listen to 30 seconds of a song. Which is awesome on songs less than 30 seconds long:)

      Buying new software is a form of gambling. You're betting your $50 that it'll work and not be utter crap.

    17. Re:Standard excuses by TechForensics · · Score: 3, Interesting

      . - Call you credit company and ask to do a chargeback. Provide the DC number as proof the item was returned. - Get money refunded to your card.

      Easy.

      Not as easy as that, and not because companies treat chargebacks as fraudulent orders (how THEY choose to treat it does not define what it is-- if they sued you they'd probably lose). (Yes, IAAL.) The real problem is that credit cards pander to the merchant. The MERCHANT is their real customer, not you-- they can screw you 'til doomsday and your "cardmember agreement" holds you still for them. Many credit cards will REFUSE to charge back a merchant without extravagant demonstrations you've tried to negotiate with unreachable telephone personnel-- and in some cases, only if the merchant agrees to accept the chargeback. They may have the RIGHT to charge back a merchant if you dispute, but they sure don't have the inclination.

      The bottom line, and I have seen this over and over in my practice, is that credit card companies put OUTRAGEOUS terms in all of that fine print, terms that will essentially bend you over and spread your cheeks if they want you that way. You thought you'd cancelled the card? BZZZZT ! They have the right to uncancel it and start siphoning your wallet again if a charge comes through after the closure date. You forgot to stop a recurring charge? BZZZZT! Late fees, penalty fees, interest et cetera, even after you told them not to disburse any more money for you. I had a client who accepted a card and never paid the ten dollar initiation fee. It went on the card, but since she never used it she never looked at the letters that arrived. A year later, with penalties and interest, she owed two thousand dollars, her limit, and it began to climb higher on overlimit fees.

      Oh, and you want to sue the bastards? Check and see if all of that fine print has arbitration clauses, limitations on class actions, or restrictive venue requirements.

      As Homey D. Clown would say, lissen up, chilluns. There is REAL money in usury-- always has been, and that is what credit cards are. And we know in America, real money is above the law (because it bought it and lowered it).

      Back to the point, the parent's suggestion of trying a chargeback is quaint and charming. By and by, Citi and MBNA and the like don't play dat.

      --
      Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
    18. Re:Standard excuses by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I can read a book and return it. I can even buy clothing and return it.

      Videos and games are exceptions to the 'no returns' rule, and DRM can actually COMPLICATE returning - even if the user uninstalled it, the game is now down an activation.

      At least if there's no DRM the next purchaser gets a working game.

      Oh,and I've returned games successfully before.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    19. Re:Standard excuses by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Congratulations! You got lucky! at the time I was running a 3.06 Intel with 2Gb of RAM and a 6200AGP card, which was WELL over the system specs. But don't take my word for it, as you can see under Bloodlines crashes we have 106,000 entries and under Max Payne crashes we have 1.7 MILLION entries in Google, and finally here we have one out of thousands describing EXACTLY what I said about PIO mode.

      The simple fact is as time goes by more and more seriously buggy code is being passed off as RTM because of the whole "we can patch it later" mentality. But while I can take back a stereo that doesn't work out of the box, or a DVD player or pretty much anything else for that matter, if I get a piece of software that refuses to run even though I am well within the specs I get basically told "tough shit". Now you tell me, why should we give their ones and zeroes all the protections of physical property and jump through the hoops and bend over backwards to protect their precious copyrights when often all we get in return is the finger?

      But I want to turn this over to someone who spells this out better than I can so here is a Youtube video from someone just like me who is tired of getting screwed by DRM. And please note the huge stacks of boxes from all the games he has bought behind him.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    20. Re:Standard excuses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know what kind of retard clients you have, but I've dealt with the chargebacks from the merchant side and the cardholder side, and CC companies do not pander to the merchants. They have an oligopoly and do what they want (even Wal*Mart got fucked over).

    21. Re:Standard excuses by theaveng · · Score: 1

      Blah, blah, blah.

      Let's stop wasting time talking about theory, and let's discuss real world experience. I've recovered about $1000 over this past year..... about $750 through paypal disputes, and $250 through direct credit card chargebacks. In both cases it was as simple as providing a Delivery Confirmation to paypal.com or the credit card company to prove the item had been returned to the seller.

      Easy.

      The laws are written to protect the customer, and both paypal and the credit companies comply with those laws. That's why it's so ridiculously easy to recover your money just by providing a tracking or DC number.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    22. Re:Standard excuses by easyTree · · Score: 2, Informative

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment

      Thanks :) - my favourites are your Greengrocers' apostrophes

    23. Re:Standard excuses by damiangerous · · Score: 1
      I have only ever found ONE place that rented PC games.

      That's because software rental has been illegal since Dec 1, 1990 thanks to the Computer Software Rental Amendments Act. Limited purpose devices like game consoles are exempt.

      Software rental was big in the 80's, I used to rent C64 games all the time from a mail order place whose name I've forgotten.

    24. Re:Standard excuses by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Standard excuses for not paying for this or any other game (pick any that apply):

      Sounds more like standard misunderstandings from an ignorant given game developer to me. Come to think of it, I think you are a game developer, and I might even know which one. Pity you chose to post anonymously. Kudos to you for supporting democracy, rock legend.

      1) I will pirate it first and then pay only if I like it (a la when I go into a restaurant and only pay when I liked the food, or go to the theater to see a film and pay only if it didn't suck). If the game is not PERFECT, I don't pay.

      Crappy food? Don't pay. Crappy movie? Refund. Crappy game? Grab your ankles.

      2) My pirating is good for the software developer (more people playing, even without paying is good, it gives them lots of free publicity). Piracy increases sales! I am doing them a HUGE favor.

      As opposed to the rationale that all piracy is a lost sale? As long as you twits keep releasing sequels and rehashes, then yes, piracy is definitely not a 0 dollar event. You failed to grab their money, but you succeded in making a potential customer for the next sequel. If you had any business sense you'd look the other way like some other companies have.

      3) I am a cheap ass.

      Then the failure to attract their money is your fault. People make purchases based on perceived value.

      4) There is no such thing as copyright (or shouldn't be). Other people should create art, music, games, films, and entertainment for me as a favor and fund it out of their own pocket.

      Sadly you've mutilated this one too much for me to trace back its origins. As far as I can tell, this is about public domain suffocating due to the ability of huge corporations holding on to copyrights in perpetuity. Irrelevent without clarification.

      5) Piracy is a fact in the gaming world. Get used to it. It's the developer's own fault because they should have taken it into account in their business case...

      I don't hear people trotting this one out often, either, but it is a little odd you didn't mutate this one to suit your needs a little better like you did with the others. It is a fact of the PC Gaming world. So is shoplifting. There's a reason stores don't check people on the way in and out like they do at Disneyland. If we're going to discuss business cases here, let's not forget what makes pirated software valuable to begin with. Do you really think that none of the people that downloaded Spore had purchased a copy? Mmm? You'd expect business cases wouldn't overlook the basic rules of economics.

      ...(besides, they should have been working on this full time as an open source program for free anyway).

      I can honestly say I've never heard this one. This sounds more like a generic Slashdot rant about proprietary software than a piracy debate.

      6) $50 for this game is too much. Come to think of it, $25 is too. And if it is only $10, then pirating it shouldn't be that much of a burden to the developer.

      If your price is too high, not everybody'll buy it. Basic economics. It's worth adding, though, that the lack of ability to return a shitty game, questions over its quality, and the general bombardment of "THE NUMBER ONE GAME IN AMERICA!" messages make it difficult enough to purchase without some form of evaluation. The copy restrictions themselves pose a problem, now. The games are systematically being lowered in value. This does not represent good business sense.

      7) I do not want to try the demo because the only meaningful way to try out a game is to try out the ENTIRE game.

      Amusing point. We're now seeing trailers instead of demos. Game developers have strengthened this point.

      8) Who cares

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    25. Re:Standard excuses by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

      There are debt collectors willing to buy merchant's chargeback and will harass the card holder which initiates the chargeback.

    26. Re:Standard excuses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This one goes to 11!
      </humor>

      Nice post.

    27. Re:Standard excuses by Fourier404 · · Score: 1

      Wow, you're an idiot. It costs much more money to copy a book or a shirt than to just buy a mass produced one. Videogames, and all other non-DRM'd digital media, can be copied in seconds at nearly zero cost.

    28. Re:Standard excuses by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Sure it can. That's why DVDs aren't selling anymore; after all they've been broken to the point that copying takes longer than cracking. Oh wait...

      The point would be to keep the DRM as unobtrusive as possible, and maximize the benefits of a legitimate copy - professionally pressed media lasts longer than burned. You get a nice box and manual, etc... No worries about being sued, professional download speeds(or pick up all materials needed in the box at the store), even tech support. All for a decent price.

      I haven't purchased OR downloaded spore - mostly because I've heard nothing but bad things about it's DRM. DRM has annoyed me more with LEGAL copies of stuff than illegal copies. As a result, I have a policy of waiting to hear about a game - and I won't buy it if they mention particularly draconian DRM.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    29. Re:Standard excuses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you missed out on a reason for people not being forthcoming with the $$$

      12) Because it may not run.
      How many games run like a dead-dog? You get a PC made at teh same time as xbox 360 and the PC wont' run modern games, get a $400 graphics card. fPs your mates with the xbox will play a less graphically impressive version of it fine, you will be spending a fortune on the upgrade. They need to take into account that people want to play games, look at warcraft 3, pretty graphics millions of players, everyone plays it. Look at Sims 2, far more impressive graphics, but an 18 month old PC takes bloody 15 minutes to load anything.

    30. Re:Standard excuses by torchdragon · · Score: 1

      Does it also cause "this disk can not be read" errors? I had thought that my system's CD writer (which worked fine for years) had finally just bit it because it wouldn't recognize any media being in the drive.

      I have at least SecuROM on my system (despite buying a game from Steam, thanks EA!) and I know Alcohol 120% just added their ACID software that attempts to block DRM software from detecting and disabling A120.

      I'm SO glad there's now an arms race between software developers on my system. Who do I sue to stop this? Obviously that's the only way this is going to end. If I put my drive into a new computer and it works fine, can I sue EA, or SecuROM, for the cost of labor and the cost of the new drive that I've yet to install into my machine? Can I make it a case as well to destroy the part of their EULA where it says they're allowed to knowingly damage my computer and cost me money in order to fix it?

      --
      "Don't feel bad for me child; I'm the monster that hides under your bed."
    31. Re:Standard excuses by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 1

      I'm *still* waiting to play Deus Ex 2. Bought it at launch, could play it due to game crashing ever couple minutes. Shelved it, installed it again last year, patched it up, still crashes all the damn time.

    32. Re:Standard excuses by gnarlyhotep · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't this be directed not at the publisher, but at the retailer, though? If you get a bad dinner,you go to the restaurant and demand they give you a refund, do you go to the food wholesaler and demand a refund from them?

    33. Re:Standard excuses by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      The last game I ever bought for my PC until recoedntly was Red Baron - wasted $100 on that puppy and if never played right, crashing after very short periods of time, patches came out ad made it better, but still hopeless.
      After that I gave up with PC games and bought consoles for games, because I need my PC to work 8)

      I have just bought world of goo though, and mainly because of their DRM policy - none. They found their non drm games sold better than the DRM ones and were not copied significantly more.
      Also after paying for the download, I could get it for mac and PC, so I downloaded both 8).
      I'm a happy customer and will buy their stuff again. Never again from EA though.

  25. Everyone must LOVE The Sims 2 by tchiseen · · Score: 1

    Is it just me or is The Sims 2 HUGE? It's always in the weekly top 10 PC sales charts, and apparently it's also being pirated like mad, still. People REALLY must have no lives...

  26. I only buy from Steam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the games I buy, I buy from Steam. If I get a game as a present I take it back to Best Chump(buy) get my Federal Reserve Notes and then byuy it from Steam, if I want the stupid game. After all these years I only play Counterstrike anyways.

    1. Re:I only buy from Steam by karstux · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Steam isn't better than any other DRM, and worse than most. It's just very convenient, being able to download a game to any computer.

      Effectively, however, your Steam "purchases" are rentals. Internet connection down? Games are inaccessible. Account gets banned? Games are lost. Valve goes out of business? Games are lost. Valve gets bought up? Pray the new owners don't change the terms of use to something draconian.

      I wouldn't spend a dime on Steam. I like to own my stuff.

      --
      Don't whistle while you're pissing.
    2. Re:I only buy from Steam by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Internet connection down? Games are inaccessible.

      You've never used Steam, I take it?

      Most Steam games will work without an Internet connection present. Multiplayer games are the exception to this rule. I suppose you could play them without an Internet connection, but it'd be pretty pointless.

      That most Steam games wotk without an Internet connection also addresses your "Valve goes out of business?" bit.

      I don't know how Steam's account banning works. I also don't know what would happen if Valve gets bought out, although you can block updates to games and Steam itself.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    3. Re:I only buy from Steam by karstux · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have a Steam account, I got HL2 bundled with a graphics card a while back. You're talking about offline mode. You have to authenticate online at least once before being able to enter offline mode. Also, each game must be activated online, you can't install games to an offline Steam client.

      As with any online activation based DRM, even store-bought steam games get reduced to coasters once the authentication servers are gone.

      Have a look at the Steam subscriber agreement. It pretty much says that games are tied to accounts, and that Valve can terminate any account at any time for no particular reason, without any recompense.

      No, really, I wouldn't spend my money there.

      --
      Don't whistle while you're pissing.
    4. Re:I only buy from Steam by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      So you're worried about not being able to use online authentication to validate games you downloaded online. Brilliant.

      The fact that they can axe your account is lame, but if they were in the habit of doing so participation in their service would quickly decline.

    5. Re:I only buy from Steam by karstux · · Score: 3, Informative

      Uh.. plenty of Steam games can be bought in a brick-and-mortar-store, on a physical medium. Everything HL2 related, for instance.

      You don't think it sucks that you have to have a) ask for permission online to play a (legally bought) single-player game, and b) Valve can render the (physical-medium-attached) game nonfunctional by canceling your online account? Inacceptable in both regards, I think.

      As I wrote above, I like to own my stuff, and with Steam it just doesn't feel like it.

      --
      Don't whistle while you're pissing.
    6. Re:I only buy from Steam by TOGSolid · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what all the hub bub is about here.

      Official servers and online hubs have been shut down in the past for other games leaving only a few old players tooling about on Hamachi. It's just something that naturally happens over time as player counts dwindle and everyone moves on.

      Seeing as how Valve isn't an evil empire, I'm quite sure that in case things went to crap they'd unlock all the games and free them from having to be authenticated by Steam in order to play online. After that, it's just a simple matter of burning the game to a disc and keeping it in your binder.

      You do backup all your downloaded content I hope.

    7. Re:I only buy from Steam by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Seeing as how Valve isn't an evil empire, I'm quite sure that in case things went to crap they'd unlock all the games and free them from having to be authenticated by Steam in order to play online. After that, it's just a simple matter of burning the game to a disc and keeping it in your binder.

      Valve doesn't need to, all their games have been already cracked, so I don't get why people are bitching about it. If worst comes to worst, you can still get the cracked version.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    8. Re:I only buy from Steam by adolf · · Score: 1

      But that's not legal.

      It ought to be, of course. It just, very simply, isn't.

    9. Re:I only buy from Steam by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      But that's not legal.

      It's legal where I am.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    10. Re:I only buy from Steam by karstux · · Score: 1

      It's illegal in most of the EU (not sure about the UK if that's where you are), in the US and in Australia.

      Besides, "cracks are available" is not much of an argument. They can be infected with all sorts of malware and can't be used on a computer you need to be able to trust.

      --
      Don't whistle while you're pissing.
    11. Re:I only buy from Steam by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      It's illegal in most of the EU (not sure about the UK if that's where you are)

      EU has no laws on cracking or using cracked copy protections/DRM. There are laws against illicit copying, which is not the problem.

      Besides, "cracks are available" is not much of an argument.

      It isn't a argument, it's a fact. If VALVe goes under and takes Steam with it and stops all the games from functioning, I'm not worried.

      They can be infected with all sorts of malware and can't be used on a computer you need to be able to trust.

      I don't trust games, Windows, undocumented software on machines I need to trust. How does this change anything?

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    12. Re:I only buy from Steam by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Even if Valve didn't unlock them, I seem to remember a provision in the DMCA that allows for breaking/bypassing DRM that is no longer supported.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    13. Re:I only buy from Steam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your internet connection's down, you can still access your games, as long as you've signed into the account that owns said games at least once.

      If your account is banned, you probably did something to deserve it. If not, take the matter up with Valve, and they'll probably reinstate the account. Not if it's a VAC ban, though. Those are permenant.

      If Valve goes out of buisness, they will release all of their games for free download. They've tested it, and it works.

      Lastly, Valve won't get bought up. They've expressed their desire to stay independant.

    14. Re:I only buy from Steam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steam is the best of DRM. In a pile of shit, it's a slightly less smelly turd.

      In the early days of steam it was a pain in the ass, and it didn't work at least half the time. Believe me, I was very vocal about how shitty steam was. I happen to know a couple guys at Valve and I yelled in their ears any chance I got.

      Now steam is a solid platform, and it gets a fair percentage of my gaming dollars. I own a dozen steam based games. Granted, if it's available outside steam, I buy it that way, because I don't want steam if I don't have to have it. But for the games where there isn't a choice, steam doesn't even slow me down. Where Starforce, or securom make me think twice. In the case of starforce, I won't even put the disc in my computer.

      If your internet is down, Steam games work just fine after a few minutes of trying to connect. It's a hassles but far from crippling. If your account gets banned, it's because you are an asshat and the rest of us are happy to watch you suffer as a result. I've had two steam accounts ever since steam was new, neither have ever received a ban, and I'm not know as a nice guy. However, I don't cheat and I rarely abuse any single person for more than the time it takes to respawn. It's not hard to stay away from bans, as long as you aren't a MyGot or an asshat.

      Valve is one of the few independent developers that isn't in danger of going out of business anytime soon, and I'm 100% sure that Gabe would force out a patch making all the games free to play from that day forward. I know this because he has said as much to my face, and to the press. I also know that Valve is not interested in getting bought up. They have rejected offers from every major publisher out there. Offers that would make your eyes turn into dollar signs. It's a risk, sure, but not much of one.

      Basically, you're a moron and you don't even know what you are talking about.

      Steam is the best DRM around, it's still DRM and trust me when I say I LOATH DRM, but it's the best of the bunch.

      Steam offers some unique features you can't find anywhere else in the gaming market. You reinstall your OS? Install steam and let it run for a day and all your games are ready to go. If you have the discs (say, HL2) you can install from those to save bandwidth and time. You go to a friends house and want to show them a cool game, you log into steam and wait a bit, you can show them your cool game now. Got a buddy that doesn't own a copy of CS? ( it happens) Give him your spare steam account. I've done it numerous times at a lan party. Sure, the DRM is annoying, but steam is WAY more than DRM. It's a content system. It's a reasonably good content system in fact.

      I wasn't happy when steam first came around, but over the years, it's turned out to be a pretty decent platform. I wouldn't say I'm happy to have it, but I'm far from upset it's there either. I'd be happy if I could just install and run the game.

      On the flip side, ever lose a CD case? I've got COD4 installed on my computer, but due to a OS recovery, I don't have the user files that contain the CD key and my achievements. Given that I can't find the CD case in the huge pile of CD cases I've got, I can't play online anymore. That annoys the hell out of me. However, I can play CS or CSS anytime I want, and I haven't been able to find the CD's for those games in ages. All I have to remember is my user account. Incidentally, I never actually purchases CS or CSS, I purchases HL and HL2. CS was a bonus both times.

    15. Re:I only buy from Steam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait you just replied to a reply of yourself. Doublepost much?

  27. Mod parent funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.

    You've never been a teenager, have you? It's bragging rights. Remember kids, the more you download, the longer your penis is.

    "Jimmy is so dreamy, he has eight hard drives worth of pirated video games!"

    GGP seemed to imply that he was interested in playing the game, which upon pirating and playing it didn't meet his expectations.

  28. The truth about DRM... by fox171171 · · Score: 1

    At this point, I have to think that companies see that they cannot stop piracy with DRM. The continued use of DRM under the guise of stopping piracy, must therefore be a ruse. They continue to claim use of DRM as an anti-piracy tool, because it's better than saying "we're doing it to usurp your right of first sale". The question is, will more revenue be gained by cutting off second hand sales than will be lost by people fed up with DRM not buying it in the first place?

  29. The only reason I "pirated" it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is because it wouldn't let me play the copy I paid for!

  30. Solution is simple... by boredhacker · · Score: 1

    ...support independent game studios. Whether you pirate or buy a giant conglomerate's product doesn't matter, they win either way.

    Do the right thing and vote with your wallet, send the money to the independents who actually CARE about their customers and the quality of the games.

  31. DRM just. can't. work. Period by DrYak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A company that makes Spore wants to earn a living. And to do that they put on DRM.

    And it just can't work.

    The premise of DRM is to make more difficult for people to casually copy the game.
    That means managing to put restriction for every last game player out there. Everyone has to be subjected to that shit in the hopes that the copying will be limited.

    But then, all it takes is 1 single unique copy. 1 single unique time when the DRM has been circumvented, for that copy to be made available to millions via the internet.

    Who in his right mind could guarantee that, out of the several millions of sold copies (2 million after 3 weeks according to EA as reported on Wikipedia*), the DRM will stand un-defeated, not even 1 single time.
    That requires failure rates lower than 1 in several dozen of millions. That are failure rates that even space exploration - with all its engineering brilliance - can't guarantee. And your expecting shitty manufacturer of crappy DRM systems, which can't even stay stable on a machine without crashing it, to be able to guarantee that ?

    Even without entering in the stupidity of the DRM's cryptographic details, or the complete out-of-reality of the pay-per-copy failed business model, just the sheer numbers involved tell you that DRM just doesn't stand a snowball in hell's chance to be even remotely reach something that could be interpreted as success.

    DRM just can't be the answer to the piracy problem :
    to succeed it must stop absolutely everyone from copying.
    to fail 1 single leak is all it takes.
    That's impossible.

    --

    *: EA reports 2 million copies sold after 3 weeks.
    TorrentFreaks reports ~2 million download after 3 months of BitTorrent.

    That's an incredibly high... SELLING RATE. Articles on /. have mentioned that 90% piracy is rather the norm in the gaming industries.Whereas, it seems that Spore has sold more copies than it got pirated.

    That's some damn fucking sign of tremendous success. And given this success, given all the money Spore has managed to earn, why does anybody need to give a fuck if some punks have downloaded copies of the intertube ?

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:DRM just. can't. work. Period by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Of course, the 90% piracy rate (on World of Goo, as I recall) is a complete ass-pull without any statistics cited to back it up.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    2. Re:DRM just. can't. work. Period by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet, TPM commeth.

    3. Re:DRM just. can't. work. Period by RedWizzard · · Score: 1

      A company that makes Spore wants to earn a living. And to do that they put on DRM.

      And it just can't work.

      The premise of DRM is to make more difficult for people to casually copy the game. That means managing to put restriction for every last game player out there. Everyone has to be subjected to that shit in the hopes that the copying will be limited.

      But then, all it takes is 1 single unique copy. 1 single unique time when the DRM has been circumvented, for that copy to be made available to millions via the internet.

      Exactly right. People are not copying the retail release with its DRM they're copying a hacked version which has no DRM. So how can DRM possibly be effective? If I was a shareholder of one of these companies I'd be asking why they're spending money on DRM systems which clearly can't work.

  32. Leading the list by a large margin is Spore... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I nominate them for the award, "Greatest Promoter of Game Piracy, in 2008".
    Made possible by their marketing, draconian DRM and unwavering vision of consumers putting up with anything. That's a winning combination.

    Three cheers for a shining beacon of liberty!

  33. Shareholders by rpillala · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A few people have mentioned DRM as shareholder appeasement. It would seem the company would enact more sensible policies if their shareholders were themselves gamers. Either that or people from this group who understand that DRM can always be circumvented.

    It would be interesting if a major benefit of holding shares in a company was a discount on the company's products. It's a very old fashioned view of the stock market, but I think you should buy shares because you believe in what a company is doing and want to help them succeed. Of course, their success = your success as far as your ownership goes, so it's not an altruistic act to purchase shares. Currently, many companies are run by people who have no interest in the products being good or even finished are a bad thing as well. Maximizing shareholder value doesn't always give you long term success or a good product - just look at Circuit City. They were held up as an exemplar in Good to Great of increasing shareholder value. Even during that time where they were doing a great job, their customer service (which I guess is one of their main products) was widely panned.

    I'm no economist so maybe this idea is hugely naive. I welcome being shown as naive.

    --
    When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
  34. Draconian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Draconian draconian, draconian. Draconian? Well, draconian! And DRM.

    1. Re:Draconian by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Yes, way to overdramatize, slashdot. "Draconian" DRM. You mean the fact that it won't even RUN if it finds evidence of a ROM loader on the system? Oh, wait, my legal copy of Spore ran just fine with daemon tools up and running. In fact, Spore doesn't even care if you have the CD in the drive or not. That's better than most other games these days. The only DRm they seem to have is limiting you to 3 installations, which is not even a hard limit because you could always call support an get more. No, the supposed draconian DRM is just an excuse people use to justify downloading the software illegally.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  35. Pirate == easier by Taken07 · · Score: 0

    It is so much easier to download the game ... because now most games aren't all that great anymore, instead of dropping 50-60 dollars on something that wasn't worth it. Usually three days after a release, there's a decent crack out for a game ... compared to the people who bought the game that are having trouble trying to activate it or get the game runner when the people who downloaded it are playing it happily ...

  36. Don't buy the game. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    Having wasted my money on the game I'm surprised anyone would want to pirate the game. I waited a couple of months until I read about EA relenting somewhat on some of the restrictions.

    I was aware of some of the criticisms but thought the game might be entertaining nonetheless. What a complete and utter letdown. Gameplay is excessively simplistic and bland.

    What I found particularly ridiculous was the fanfare behind the game being some sort of evolution "simulator". There even was some lame cross-promotion on Discovery channel. Again, I wasn't really surprised going in, I just found the marketing to be a bit ridiculous.

    If anything, given how the game essentially depicts creationism and intelligent design you'd think the creationists would adore this game.

    Back onto the topic, I find this a bit concerning. The people downloading the game are convinced they're screwing the man and thus justified in what they do, but instead they're just making things worse for all PC users.

    What message are they sending? The game apparently is desirable. But whereas gamers thing they're protesting the publishers are seeing this as a sign that gamers are freeloaders. They're going to assume that these people would have pirated the game with or without the DRM.

    So what conclusions are they going to reach? DRM isn't strong enough, so lets make it more invasive. And that's assuming the market is deemed to exist. Because the more likely consequence of this is that they'd abandon PC development and focus on consoles as much as possible.

    And to be completely honest, I feel that people pirating games are unprincipled. If a publisher has done something you're not happy with, let's say introducing draconian DRM, the solution is simple. Don't touch the damn game. That sends a much clearer message than pirating.

    Some people seem so desperate to get the latest and greatest of anything that they're willing to let themselves be screwed on a regular basis, or in this cases continue insuring that we have to suffer with DRM.

    1. Re:Don't buy the game. by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 1

      And to be completely honest, I feel that people pirating games are unprincipled. If a publisher has done something you're not happy with, let's say introducing draconian DRM, the solution is simple. Don't touch the damn game. That sends a much clearer message than pirating.

      Actually, not buying it sends no message at all.

    2. Re:Don't buy the game. by Zironic · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how not touching the game would be a clear message, the publisher would still be able to find a million excuses for why the game didn't sell well.

    3. Re:Don't buy the game. by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I agree with you 100%. If I as a publisher saw that my game sold poorly and had no piracy, then my conclusion is that it sucked. If it sold poorly and there was a lot of piracy, my conclusion would be that the game is good, but that people didn't like the price point and I had made it too easy for them to play it for free. If it sold well and there was a lot of piracy then I would have to conclude that it was a great game, but I had made it too easy to play for free.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  37. Defeating the DRM more fun than playing this game by chiapup · · Score: 1

    In the case of Spore, I found that trying to figure out how to download it and then use the crack to play it was more fun, from a gameplay standpoint, than actually playing the game. So I'm glad I found that out before paying $50 and could just delete it.

  38. Spore, spore, spore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now that you have raised such a noise? I stole a small piece of the pie from the manufacturer game that he would smash from this? Always was and always will be. There are those who wrote the book (the game), there are those who illegally copy them ... And there would be no action taken, it only shifts the balance between these two groups, but only!
    game`s for all :)

  39. kind of pissed off by mattydont · · Score: 1

    This kind of pisses me off seeing as i actually paid for the game, the only reason being DRM that made me think about it, how ever in the end i probably wouldn't have pirated / payed for it as its pretty average and is most likely going to have 200 expansions packs like the Sims.

  40. Good thing DRM Works! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm glad that DRM works and pirates can't distribute copies of great games like Spore for free.

    1. Re:Good thing DRM Works! by tompaulco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      DRM isn't there to stop someone experienced in illegally obtaining software. It is there to stop the average person from doing so. Most people don't know how to download software, run key generators, replace binaries and that sort of thing. They want to click on something and have it run. It is just like a lock on a house doesn't do anything to stop a professional thief, but it will stop the guy going door to door just trying doorknobs until he's found one that is unlocked. The people screaming "DRM is useless", are like the professional thieves saying "locks are useless" all the time justifying that they only break into houses because people put locks on them.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    2. Re:Good thing DRM Works! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So why all the research into new and better DRM schemes? If DRM is only meant to keep out the common man, the simplest DRM should be enough.

    3. Re:Good thing DRM Works! by DMalic · · Score: 1

      Ah! I understand now. The whole millions of copies downloaded, that's just.. people who ended up giving up because they couldn't run the game?

    4. Re:Good thing DRM Works! by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      I actually know a guy who went out and bought Spore because his pirate download was going too slow.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  41. if i were a game developer... by buddyglass · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I wouldn't develop anything that doesn't revolve around account-based multi-player game play. Pirate the client software all you want; unless you pay me for an account (or share someone's who has) you're not getting any of the good stuff.

    1. Re:if i were a game developer... by RyatNrrd · · Score: 1

      Then, if you were a game developer, you'd be getting no money from me. I have no interest in online multi-player games. Call me antisocial, but I don't feel like dealing with idiots in my free time.

  42. How are these stats measured? by ymgve · · Score: 1

    How are these stats measured? Piratebay doesn't have any "Number of times downloaded" stat, so I'm insterested in how they arrived at those numbers. Some sites have a "downloaded" stat, but that number seems to only be connected to the number of downloads of the ".torrent" metafile itself.

    1. Re:How are these stats measured? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BitTorrent clients also send a notification to the tracker whenever a torrent is completed; it's part of the protocol. They probably use those statistics. They're not perfect, but since there is little advantage for users to fake these statistics, they should be reasonably accurate.

    2. Re:How are these stats measured? by chefmonkey · · Score: 1

      There is also at least one company that gleans this kind of information from various file-sharing networks and sells it as market data. Their focus is music, but it certainly could have been quietly expanded to include other media (and/or other companies may be doing the same kind of data mining).

  43. re: Already true for CD-key protected titles! by King_TJ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I recently bought the native OS X version of Call of Duty 4. (I had the PS3 version for a little while, but I can't get used to playing a 1st. person shooter with the console controller....)

    I only got to play online a few times before I was greeting with a "CD key already in use" message and kicked offline. Apparently, quite a few people are suffering from the same issue. Tech. support suggests that improperly exiting the game can cause the main server to hold onto your login info for a while, and to "wait a little while and try again". They also suggest that an "overloaded master server" could temporarily cause it.

    Well, that may be true in *some* situations, but the more obvious problem is that pirates have created key-generator programs that make valid keys that wind up matching ones paid for by customers like me. Will they issue me a new key though? No way! Forget it! I've barely been able to play in the last few weeks..... If I finally get online with my key, I guess I need to leave my Mac connected all the time? Ridiculous!

    My best friend had the exact same issue with Quake 4 a while ago - which prompted him to stop buying any more 1st. person shooters requiring keys for online play. Activision refused to help him with his problem -- so he was essentially better off just pirating.

  44. How have they come up with these numbers? by olehenning · · Score: 1

    The article didn't say anything about how they measured this. It did mention that EA was sceptica to their statistics (EA downplaying piracy? Nooooo). However, I can't seem to figure out how they measured this. There are a vast number of trackers out there, and a lot of them aren't public. I suspect that the statistics for such trackers is quite similar, but there's no real way to know, is there?

  45. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  46. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  47. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  48. Social rejection method to lessen pirating by Cream+of+Tomato+Soup · · Score: 1

    Why don't publishers/developers try to make it socially unacceptable to steal games? Instead of using a terrible DRM solution and suing the pirates, drop the DRM and subpoena the pirate's ISP for their name and address, which you then post on a public Wall of Shame website. It sure wouldn't look good when said pirates' employers do web searches on them and find out that they are petty thieves. Getting rid of the DRM on the game is crucial for this to work, however. You can't expect the social rejection of copyright infringement if devs/pubs give people a valid reason to steal the game in the first place.

    1. Re:Social rejection method to lessen pirating by Shados · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not sure about the method, but its the only way. Really, as a general rule, even for things that are part of the criminal code and even felony, only socially unacceptable things aren't done on a daily basis. Kiddy rape -> socially unacceptable. Illegal immigration (also a felony) -> socially ACCEPTABLE. Piracy -> Socially VERY acceptable. Working under the table -> 50/50, depends who you hang out with.

      And so on and so on. If something is legal or not often has very little effects on if people care or not (and I guess it makes sense... laws are probably supposed to some extent to represent what people think, on top of protecting minitories and other edge cases)

    2. Re:Social rejection method to lessen pirating by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      And each wrong name is equal to libel. Nice. Tell me who would accept that kind of "lying"?

      Remember, we're innocent until _proven_ guilty, and you assumed guilt.

      --
    3. Re:Social rejection method to lessen pirating by DMalic · · Score: 1

      This would not work. To protect yourself against a legal response, you'd have to vet everyone using the same level of care you would for a lawsuit, which would be unreasonably expensive. Even so, the number of targets needed for the process to be effective would give you lots of false positives, meaning that for all the money you'd already spent you would still get hit with defamation lawsuits.

    4. Re:Social rejection method to lessen pirating by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      I can just picture this now... someone sees their friends name on there and goes "duuuuude, haha... rock on, give me a copy dammit!"

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    5. Re:Social rejection method to lessen pirating by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Instead of using a terrible DRM solution and suing the pirates, drop the DRM and subpoena the pirate's ISP for their name and address

      Alright, so, a user pirated a stripped DRM program from usenet or something.

      How do I get the IP address again? Also, it's not possible to subpoena ISPs in most countries.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  49. future of online gaming and DRM by yulek · · Score: 1

    in a few years most online games will be played with an extremely simple client where even the graphics are generated remotely along with all the game logic. the client will be able to run on cheap hardware (no more crazy gaming rigs) and DRM will become unnecessary...

    --
    in this age of communication i'm just not getting through
    1. Re:future of online gaming and DRM by Microlith · · Score: 1

      where even the graphics are generated remotely along with all the game logic.

      Just consider the resources a machine would need to generate even 30fps video at 1920x1200. Multiply that by at least 10-20. Then add in the bandwidth requirements and the effects of latency. I don't see it happening, especially in the US where bandwidth is low and the caps are low.

    2. Re:future of online gaming and DRM by AkaKaryuu · · Score: 1

      Isn't this how SecondLife runs?

  50. The real reasons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, it was a super-hyped game with no demo and the game sucked. Those are often the most pirated because people want to get in on the hype but don't want to pay for something that they will probably only play for a few minutes.

    Second, because of the insane DRM, I sure many legitimate owners got a cracked version as well out of need or principle.

    So there you have it.

  51. We need facts. by tkrotchko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "It seems that the current generation thinks that charging for software is a bad thing."

    That could only be true if the RATE of piracy is higher than in the past. And what you'd need to do is to study what is being pirated and how it compares to 5 or 10 years ago. You could do lots of interesting research in this area provided you have the data.

    What we're lacking is facts, and the people providing them have a vested interest in doing research only as long as the outcome they're paying for.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  52. To prove a point. by Junta · · Score: 1

    I haven't bothered pirating anything as I'm just too lazy to care, however, I could see it being worth the effort to drive a point home.

    If you care about any games, and know DRM afflicts the games you care about, and hear about the Spore debacle, you may wish to prove the DRM only hurt the industry in this case. You may not care about Spore (quite possible given the critical reception), but the opportunity is ripe to show that legitimate customers suffered for naught (given the ostensible reason would be to fight piracy and this proves it doesn't help).

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  53. Not clear cut. by Junta · · Score: 1

    For one, you insinuate the parent poster must be willing to infringe on copyright just because they express disdain for SecuROM. There is no indication he chose to play a pirated game, just expressed the simple fact the DRM technology hurts legitimate users and dose nothing to faze illegitimate usage.

    Though I don't agree with the method, the message is not much more clear for a game to have no piracy and no purchases. If a game releases, infested with invasive DRM mechanisms, and sees negligible sales, the company can't be sure whether the game flopped because the baggage that came with it was too burdensome, or if it flopped because the game just wasn't desirable. If it is accompanied by rampant copyright infringement, they can at least know their DRM didn't help their cause, and depending on the circumstances realize the product itself may have otherwise been successful. The Spore case is different as I believe the infringement incidents are artificially high due to a protest justification rather than genuine interest.

    The company signed up for the most user inconvenience they could in the name of protected their intellectual property, and as a consequence, experienced the counter-intuitive result of a higher-than-normal percentage of piracy to legitimate sales.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  54. By Neruos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Greed, not popularity is important.

    Spore itself has made more then it's share of profit with or without the pirated aspect attached to it. Piracy doesn't hurt nor kill a products expectations or its profits.

    Give an item away for 50$, it costs the consumer to figure out if it's a bad idea.
    Give an item away for free, it costs the company to figure out if it's a bad idea.

  55. no Spore for me by FliesLikeABrick · · Score: 1

    I was very interested in the game and was planning on buying it until I heard about the Nazi DRM. I haven't pirated it since I'm not that desperate to play it, but once I heard about how the DRM operated and how restrictive it is, I didn't even consider buying it. I don't want to buy it and then pirate it after a few reinstalls.

  56. How many purchased then pirated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My girlfriend purchased a legitimate retail copy of The Sims 2, but the DRM refused to allow it to run on her machine. We spent several days trying to get it going, before finally downloading a pirated copy, which worked perfectly on the first try.

    So, how many of those Spore downloads were by people who purchased the retail copy but couldn't get it to run, or simply didn't want the DRM?

  57. Spore only won... by LurkerXD · · Score: 1

    ...because Wrath of the Lich King has only been out for three weeks.

    1. Re:Spore only won... by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      Are you on crack? You can't really pirate World of Warcraft, unless you're playing on a pirate server. And those aren't too popular, and difficult to set up, so most people just pay.

  58. How is it that Bethesda software.... by stephenhawking · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Manages to stay alive and keep making hit games with no DRM.....Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 are all bona fide hits, surely making the company a big pile of money, and yet none contain DRM. Hmmm.....I wonder how that works....Maybe it has something to do with the fact that these games are great, and can yield years of entertainment. Morrowind is one of my most played and replayed games of all times, with it's open ended nature (in terms of game play and modability), and both Oblivion and Fallout 3 follow this trend. If you make quality stuff, you don't need DRM, apparently.

    1. Re:How is it that Bethesda software.... by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      They're a small company with few mouths to feed.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    2. Re:How is it that Bethesda software.... by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Manages to stay alive and keep making hit games with no DRM.....Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 are all bona fide hits, surely making the company a big pile of money, and yet none contain DRM

      Excuse me? Just because you don't need to have the cd in the drive to play doesn't mean it doesn't have DRM...they just put it in the launcher instead of the game's executable itself...so I only need to reconnect my cd-rom drive if i want to change the settings...

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
  59. Appendix A by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

    is the fact that the means of aggregating the facts are different. In the mid 1980's my dad worked at an insurance company (a pretty big one, too) that had purchased one copy of Wordperfect 5.1 for an entire office floor; the number of copies in the building could be counted on one hand. Who's going to report that?

    All it takes now is some loose counting on the top 10-20 torrent sites and that's where the numbers come from. It's likely that piracy based on empirical numbers (i.e. literal number of pirated copies in use) has gone up based on the much higher number of people using them, but percentage wise (pirated copies over purchased copies) has probably gone down as a whole. While centralized sourcing has gone up (one purchase, 100 limewire downloads), disk swapping has likely gone down (100 purchases, each person giving the disk to two friends, who then each give copies to two friends equals 700 installs)

    Joey

  60. They should decrease the number of activations by P00k13 · · Score: 1

    The best way to slow down these pirates is to decrease the number of activations to zero. This way, if you download the game it is worthless. But if you buy the game, you still can't install it, but you got a nice colorful packaging to look at. Buying the game therefore gives you a better experience so everyone will buy it instead of pirate. Problem solved!

  61. Note This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Four of the five most pirated games were made by EA... What does EA think of this?
    "We have the best games... It's only logical."
    Probably. While it is in fact their failure to meet the requests andexpectations of their previously paying cusromers... Sad story, really.

  62. Not out of ass... by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Of course, the 90% piracy rate [...] is a complete ass-pull

    Well, in the last article it wasn't an ass pull.
    IT was based on a ratio of scores submitted to their server (as an approximation of the number of people who play the game) against number of license sold.

    It's not a perfect metric, but it's still a metric.
    BTW the developpers were far from being hungry, and didn't botter putting some DRM in their application.

    (That was the subject of TFA's interview : they didn't throw money on some DRM and their piracy rate were exactly in-line with what was reported everywhere else. Conclusion : DRM is useless and doesn't matter at all for piracy rates)

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  63. 20 years of console gaming by DrYak · · Score: 1

    And yet, TPM commeth.

    Of course. 20 years in gaming consoles have very well proved that a platform designed only to run signed code is a perfect and undefeated form of protection.

    The only single reason why mod-chipped video console aren't as popular today as they were 15 years ago, is because of the menace of being banned from On-Line service if the chip is detected.

    But if you put strong limitation on what code a PC is allowed to run, the only net effect will be a net increase of pissed consumers.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:20 years of console gaming by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      It is NOT an undefeated form of protection.

      I can actually copy games to my xbox through FTP and run them off the hard disk, and I don't have a mod chip.

      --
      It's been a long time.
  64. That's unacceptable too by cpghost · · Score: 1

    "Walls of Shame" are actually socially unacceptable in many civilized countries. In fact, it is not only punishable under civil laws (libel and defamation), it is often a criminal offense. And it doesn't matter wether the accusation is true or false! Should any one involved in such activities visit one of those countries, they may even risk jail time, if not just huge fines, even if the public pillories and their own location were abroad.

    --
    cpghost at Cordula's Web.
  65. Thank you DRM !!!! by DrYak · · Score: 1

    You know there are other options. You can rent, ask a friend

    Wonderful way to legally share content.
    Happen to be completely impossible to achieve on several games due to draconian DRM methods.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Thank you DRM !!!! by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      AI must be approaching the Singularity if your friend's computer knows that it's you sitting in front of it rather than your friend.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

  66. Re: Already true for CD-key protected titles! by Loibisch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, the chance of finding a proper key that is suitable for online play is non-trivial, here is how key generation usually goes:

    1) programmer of company develops an algorithm to generate keys
    2) company runs said algorithm 100,000 times to generate 100,000 valid keys, covering only a tiny fraction of the complete keyspace
    3) company records those keys and adds them to their master server to allow online play
    4) those keys are distributed with the games

    What happens once the game is released is this
    5) cracker figures out the algorithm
    6) cracker tries to generate a "valid" key for online play, but fails because the keyspace is a couple orders of magnitude larger than the small number of keys actually distributed.

    Chance of valid duplicate keys: close to nil. Chance of generating a valid key for online play: also close to nil.
    Of course it happens, I just don't believe it happens that often.

  67. I love zero puncutation by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    But I won't confuse it with useful game reviews. Perhaps I just have different tastes than him but, for example, he really didn't seem to care for Mass Effect. I would say it is the best RPG ever, any generation, any platform. I watch for entertainment, not reviews.

  68. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  69. Oh please by LrdDimwit · · Score: 1

    Then why does the data consistently show piracy rates directly corresponding to popularity rates?

  70. Stop creating games for Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, it's not worth it. The incompatible and obsolete Microsoft system is completely useless and has been made redundant by MacOS X, BSD, Linux for at least 8 years now.

    1. Re:Stop creating games for Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for the fact that it's the most popular gaming platform in the world?

  71. re: chances of finding valid keys? by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    I understand, except my suspicion/fear is that a cracker could examine a number of valid keys to figure out a good idea of which small portion of the complete keyspace was used in their generation - and tailor a keygen accordingly.

    Anyone working at a retail store (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) would have a relatively easy time accessing a number of valid keys by simply opening a few boxes and peeking inside before re-sealing them.

  72. Re: chances of finding valid keys? by Loibisch · · Score: 1

    With a good algorithm and a decent random number generator this should be virtually impossible.

    It's somewhat like a md5sum, where modifying only a single bit in the seed changes the complete result. If these bit-changes are performed randomly, then it should be impossible to derive the "valid" keyspace.

  73. Congratulations EA by Rutefoot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My girlfriend has bought all 8 original Sims game, and all 9 Sims 2 games.

    That equals between $750 and $1000 spent on one single videogame franchise.

    And despite her being against software piracy, she is now unlikely ever going to buy another EA game again.

    You hear that EA?? You've lost one of your most loyal customers because of your ridiculous policies and DRM.

    The last game (Apartment Life) she installed was done via their online service.

    I spent Two weeks fixing her computer and trying to get the game working. With zero help from EA, I ended up finding answers on cracking sites (even then, all the security measures made it tough to implement the user-made fixes). After a few days I downloaded the pirated expansion pack onto my computer and let her play on my computer until I got hers figured out.

    The next Sims game she plays will likely be pirated. After seeing how easy it was to just download the pirated game and what the DRM encrusted game could do to her computer she very quickly changed her mind on the morality of downloading software.

  74. I bought "World of Goo" ... by ErkDemon · · Score: 1
    ... a few days ago.

    If the product had been DRM'ed, that'd probably have been enough to put me off. But since the Goo guys made the thing so damned easy to get hold of and install (you can buy it direct from wwww.WorldOfGoo.com as a download, day or night), when the impulse to get it struck me at 4am, I couldn't think of any reason to hold off. I'd already played the demo, the price was within my comfort threshold, if you bought the Windows version they gave you the Linux version for free (when it's finished). I didn't have to worry about media incompatibilities, or problems installing it on different machines, or network incompatibilities, or the fact that my new PC doesn't have an internal optical drive.

    And the Goo guys seemed to be trying so hard to make things as easy as possible for their customers that it was difficult not to have a lot of goodwill towards them.

    Result: product purchased, and also recommended to friends.

    "I am a valued customer!" -- World of Goo

  75. popjunk by emj · · Score: 1

    Well it makes perfect sense since everything that is popular is junk, see Britney Spears, Windows and now days somtimes even Linux. :-)