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Car Glass Rules Could Impair Cell, GPS and Radio Signals In CA
An anonymous reader writes "The California Air Resources Board (CARB) just passed a new regulation that requires glazed glass in automobiles that is supposed to reduce the need to use air conditioning. The catch is that the same properties that block electromagnetic sunlight radiation also block lower frequency electromagnetic radio waves. That means radios, satellite radios, GPS, garage door openers, and cell phones will be severely degraded. Even more surprising is that it requires this glass even for jeeps that have soft covers, plastic windows, and no air conditioning.'"
You must be new to bureaucracies.
... people will have problems using cell phones while driving?
Oh darn. That's just horrible.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
My question is, who owns the rights to this technology they are going to enforce everyone to have?
I know when they passed legislation requiring motorcycle helmets to be worn, they didn't specify "where", so people were strapping one to their knee or hanging it from an elbow.
Perhaps you can do the same thing, and sell glazed drinking glasses, stick one in your cup-holder, you're golden?
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
Less glazed glass in da hood.
Yours In Yaznogorsk,
K. Trout
The CARB should be barred from mandating equipment, and simply mandate emissions standards. Who cares why your car gets good or shitty mileage? Let's just see them have mandated emissions and, if necessary, mileage; we already have both, of course. But at the same time, the CARB has done amazing things for California's air quality; there's more Chinese pollution in LA now than the local stuff. Which highlights the NEXT phase of the problem... but we're not done here, yet.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I say it's a win-win situation.
As all insolvent institutions must, unless someone can come up with legislation that repeals the laws of gravity. Or perhaps that state can start printing money.
[places pinky finger to mouth]
An .. Aerial !!!!
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
A refreshingly sensible idea. I hope it sticks.
...bar none the home of the absolute dumbest government in Known Space.
I'm not exaggerating. You see these... creatures on the news, and you wonder how they escaped from whatever home for the mentally ill failed to contain them.
It's the inescapable end result of gerrymandering and fanatical Party loyalty. People wonder why I rail against ideology. What happens in Sacramento is prime exhibit #1.
I've spent the past several years designing and prototyping a new type of eco-friendly air conditioning for automobiles that solves both these problems. By using the intrinsic velocity of an automobile and cutting-edge gas dynamics, I've discovered that the inside of a car can be cooled merely by adding an additional aperture to the side of the vehicle. This aperture can even be temporary, thanks to an innovative sliding glass mechanism that preserves visibility and allows a variety of different settings to suit the user's preference. A slight decrease in aerodynamics and therefore fuel efficiency, as well as a tendency for papers to blow around in the back seat, is the only downside.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVTO-2Qrt7U
... I really would appreciate having this kind of glass in my car. If there is one thing I hate most about the summer, it's having my car being boiling hot inside when I return. I know this glass wouldn't be perfect at reducing the "greenhouse effect" in the car, but it's something I'd be willing to pay to put on my own car. Besides, I don't see what's so bad about not being able to use a cell phone in a car, or blocking GPS (people should learn to read maps more often).
So - I'll just have to leave the windows down when I'm chatting on the phone, stopped in traffic, trying to find a GPS route around, with my cool air conditioning on. Unless they interlock the AC relay to only engage between 30-45mph, and ambient air is 65F or cooler.
I don't suppose I could instead get the ECM shielded against EMP could I ? Or maybe a engine that runs on hot air from CARB ?
I wondered why General Motors dropped the Oldsmobile brand.
Infuriate left and right
. . . before wireless carriers and GPS makers begin making billions on selling special antennas you have to wire up, mount externally, and plug into an already overworked battery. Seems to me people would rather crank their engines harder than have their battery conk out in the middle of their commute because they needed to power a mobile cell tower to make an outgoing call.
So what's going to actually happen is that folks will roll down all their windows when they take a call while driving and then roll them back when they hang up their cell phone. Because they are talking, they'll forget to turn off the A/C so this new regulation combined with actual physics means more energy will be used.
But it's California so it's got to be a good idea since the intentions of the populace are correct.
So to reduce fuel consumption, they're enacting a law that is going to force people to roll down their windows to get cell, radio and GPS signals, therefore increasing drag and fuel consumption? Yay!
SmashTech - No smashing of tech involved
I must be an idiot but my radio antenna is outside my car connected with a cable to my radio. Why would glazed glass be an issue. not only that but unless your car is made of plastic isn't the frame of the car in fact a passive antenna since it isn't grounded? (I could be wrong here, too many years since school). Feel free to correct me but since the windows are not contigious isn't this an issue of weaker cell phone signals and with more states passive anti-cell phone while driving laws isn't this a moot issue?
I must be old and cranky or just plain stupid but how is this a bad idea? A cooler car, less gas burned in AC, and potential to stop an alien laser weapon long enough to duck before it melts through the glass seems like a good idea. While we are at it can we require bulletproof glass to boot in the wind shield and rear windows since they always seem to get shot up in the movies but no one ever takes a shot from the side...
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
... illegal window tint. The ricers were just ahead of their time.
Have gnu, will travel.
It has everyone complaining about the stoopid government but did you notice that this was printed in a Detroit newspaper? Gee, I wonder why people in Detroit would care about a new type of glass in a car window that adds extra cost to a vehicle? You just got played due to your knee-jerk anti-government attitude. Regardless of whether you agree with the manufacturers or the government you should realize when you are being manipulated by the media.
Glazed glass?
On a more pertinent note, this is what happens when you move away from a performance spec - instead of just saying "Fuel efficiency shall be X" and letting the makers figure out how to do it, they feel compelled to tell the makers HOW to get better mileage - with expected results.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
> Even more surprising is that it requires this glass even
> for jeeps that have soft covers, plastic windows, and
> no air conditioning.
The alternative would be to leave a loophole in a rule intended to be followed by automotive corporations. Historically, that hasn't worked out so well.
c.
Log in or piss off.
Roll down the windows? :)
Did you know that some of that old glazing material was Abseto in old homes... I wonder what crap they want put on our windows now; that in 30 years we'll find out causes cancer, autism, allergies, Liberal Rage Disorder, NIMBY Rightwing Syndrome, a taste for Bud Light, and a yearing for Married With Children reruns...
I am a firm beliver in colored glass+copper foil+lead with two sheets of clear wire reinforced safety glass on the outside.
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
Its mandating a standard behavior for the glass in the non-visible part of the spectrum, that has a conequesnce of keeping your car from getting so F@#)(*@# hot in the sun.
Test your net with Netalyzr
If I lived in California and I wanted a brand new vehicle then I'd just go to a nearby state to buy one without this bullshit. I wonder if this will have a negative impact on auto sales in the state?
Whoa, wait a minute... short-sighted, ineffectual, over-reaching, burdensome laws... IN CALIFORNIA? As a California native, I am shocked, SHOCKED!
"Even more surprising is that it requires this glass even for jeeps that have soft covers, plastic windows, and no air conditioning."
Then you know "somebody" in the car glass industry had a very good friend at a high place :)
Privacy is terrorism.
Your government is defective. Huge budget deficits, stealing from local cities and counties and flawed regulations being rammed through the legislative process.
Living here, I vote we rip up the state's constitution and start fresh. The first step is ousting the assholes currently in charge.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
making even more likely to attract alien invasion....
"garble garble...Ooooooh....shiny"
I live in California, Sacramento no less, and one of two things is going to happen eventually. Taxes are going to have to be raised, or massive cuts to services will happen. The problem is that there is no political will to do either because people want the government to do all this wonderful stuff for them, but they don't want to pay for it. There's an incredible entitlement complex in California but there's also this idea that no matter how much money you make it should always be the MORE wealthy who should have to pay for everything.
If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
As someone who does not automatically blame the government for everything, divisionbyzero, you hereby stand accused of being a statist of the worst sort. How do you plead? I will assume guilty, since you are a statist and cannot be expected to think as rationally as me. So you are a guilty statist.... the punishment for this is to read The Fountainhead a thousand times. We cannot have anyone questioning the fundamental rights of corporations around here!
This looks like a move by the car industry to force consumers to use their solution for cell phone and GPS.
That is a major market for companies like GM.
If they could force, via legislation, that occupants would have to use the cell phone/GPS installed in the car that would be a MAJOR revenue source for them.
... people will have problems using cell phones after being critically injured in a car accident? Oh darn. That is just horrible. Oh, and GP is facetious totalitarian prick.
Why?
If they're critically injured, they can't use a cell phone and there will be plenty of folks around them to call for emergency services. And most likely, they're in that situation for having been using a cell phone in the first place. Therefore, if they can't use a cell phone, they won't get into an accident and then they won't be critically injured. Problem solved.
There is nothing so important that you have to talk on the phone in the car while driving. Even if you are a brain surgeon, there will be folks at the hospital who will keep your patient stable by the time you get there. Besides, if you're talking and driving while giving medical instruction, you might say the wrong thing. For example, you're driving and telling the medical staff what to do about IVs and whatnot and then someone cuts you and you yell, "Asshole!" and you go on. You arrive at the hospital and find that the IVs are in your patient's rectum. You get sued and your patient dies!
Don't talk and drive!
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Its called a "minor action" now in 4th edition
No sig for the moment.
From TFA:
Air conditioning burns more gasoline and contributes to greenhouse gas emissions. California says its regulation will save 700,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide by 2020, which is equivalent to taking 140,000 cars off the road for a year.
140,000 cars off the road...in a state with pop. 36M?
..marijuana really isn't illegal at the federal level, they just have a so much an ounce tax on it (I forget what,a lot though, 200 bucks maybe) and you need a permit. Then they about slap refuse to issue any permits, even to medical researchers.
The one that it is even *nuttier* is they outlaw industrial hemp, which is a very good multiple use ag crop, yet you can import and sell industrial hemp products.
The federal government (we the people) would do good to just eliminate several agencies as doing more harm than good, to the economy, to society, etc, those guys in the DEA (the war on some drugs is an abject complete failure), the BATFE (WTF is that all about?), and the DOE (education)(state run is all that is needed, no fed skimming of cash is necessary to fund schools, we got by completely fine without it for a long long time) for starters. There's a very few aspects to those agencies that could be retained (not many though), and those could be rolled into other agencies.
On the huge majority of cars, air conditioners work by either being on or off. When they are on, the compressor puts a small but constant load on the engine. A separate electric blower fan blows all of the air over the cooling coils. Your temperature control knob just mixes in warm outside air with the cold air from the air conditioner to achieve the desired temperature. The car air conditioner uses no more energy running on full blast than it does running on low.
And in India, it is illegal to have your car windows tinted black, because a few years ago, a Swiss tourist was raped in a car that had tinted windows and apparently that made it 'difficult' for the cops to know what was going on inside.
Boy, talk about irony.
RutSum.com
Lighter car. Less fuel consumption. No CFCs. Fewer people going on useless trips. Old air-conditioned cars will eventually become collectors items.
That means radios, satellite radios, GPS, garage door openers, and cell phones will be severely degraded
Radios, Satellite Radios use external antenna. So strike that over hyped issue.
GPS can as well use external antennas.
Garage door openers need a range of only 8 to 12 feet.
Put the cell phone down. You shouldn't talking while driving anyway, And cells work in elevators, they will work in cars.
So one out of 4 complaints here is valid.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
surprising considering the kickbacks involved to the people who approved this legislation. Oh wait, sorry, for a minute I though that state governments were uncorrupt.
The 'B' is for 'Bargain'?
What is "glazed glass" ? Is that glass that has glass in it ?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&num=20&q=glazed&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB
Seriously, does anybody really think that government is made up of the country's smartest people?
The private sector could easily do something this stupid. It's just that, we have only one government, and in the private sector, stupid businesses are supposed to fail, unless they happen to be banks.
This is my sig.
1. Never regulate the means, only the end result.
2. All legislation must specify a metric by which an implementation may be measured to be compatible with desired result.
Thats is it. Follow those rules and a huge amount of f#$%^ red tape will be avoided.
-- The morphemes of your disquisition are ascertainable, but they have eschewed an ambit of transpicuous exposition.
Put this glass in all cars, and people will then need to open their windows and/or sunroof to make a cell phone call or use their GPS. And of course, they then will have to crank up the A/C to compensate for the open windows! (Yes, I have driven convertibles with top down and heater on at the same time. Not the A/C, though.)
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I don't have an EZPass, but if it relies on this spectrum that would be a serious drawback -- politically speaking.
Curious if this new coating also interferes with radar detectors?
My radio antenna was on the outside of my car meaning that this would not interfere with my radio reception. Sorry, my tinfoil hat is still being fitted
. .
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
Uh, don't most automobile radios have the antenna located OUTSIDE the passenger compartment? If your in-car entertainment system involves a portable radio, then you definitely may be a redneck!
If I recall correctly, it is currently against the law in California to tint the glass in your windshield. Pass this legislation, and both tinted and non-tinted glass will be unlawful. Clearly, this legislation is intended to provide more funding for traffic enforcement -- they can now stop and ticket anyone they choose!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
because that's the Jeeps top speed!
and see the nice little FAQ they have. http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/coolcarsfaq.pdf Will my GPS still work? Yes. Many automobile manufacturers currently equip their vehicles with external antennas to ensure proper functioning of factory installed GPS devices. For aftermarket GPS devices, deletion windows, or areas without reflective coatings, will be created in the windshield and the location of these windows noted in the owner’s manual. ARB tests showed that placing the GPS device or the external antenna within the deletion window allows the device to operate as effectively as in a car with no reflective glass.
I hope this doesn't spread, we need all the heat from the sun we can get up here in Canada,... Trouble is legislators/regulators tend to follow the leader and not think for themselves. Using this kind of glass in colder climates would be a big mistake. For example today at 8 degrees Celsius, my car interior was warm when I got in it a little bit ago, with all frost melted off.
... so who cares if it blocks the signal? The only thing that it would really impair would be a dash mounted GPS unit (which would suck admittedly), but you have to wonder how hard it would be to get an external antenna for them.
The catch is that the same properties that block electromagnetic sunlight radiation also block lower frequency electromagnetic radio waves.
There is a simple solution for this, it's called an exterior antenna.
or drive around with a window down with the phone held outside, and the AC on full :) I would be more pissed if I can't get my GPS to work on the dash.
With manufactures already wanting to sell services like on-star, with cell & GPS locked to your car, they likely don't need much of a good excuse to block yours.
I would likely replace one window with plain glass and a holder for the phone next to that, blue-tooth the remaining distance.
Electronic eavesdropping might be more difficult. You can also use half-gauge tin foil hats inside your car.
I recently bought a new car, a 2008 Nissan, and I noticed that the RF gate opener to get into my parking lot at work doesn't function now either. It works like the Tolltag / EZ pass badges where the card is not powered and is detected by an RFID like transceiver, now I have to roll down my window and wave the pass around like a moron to get in.
Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
Here's the problem with CARB's proposal:
The air conditioner in your car is NOT like the one in your house. Your home's air conditioner turns on when the temperature gets too high and turns off when it gets too low. The air coming out the vents is always cooled by the same amount, roughly 20 degrees cooler than the outside air.
But the AC in your car doesn't work this way. When you turn on the AC in your car, you can set the temperature coming out the vents by changing the ratio of air fed from the evaporator coil and the car's heater coil. That's what the little Blue/Red slider does. When the little "AC" light is on, your car's air conditioner is ALWAYS WORKING, always drawing maybe 2 horsepower from your engine. That's maybe 10-15% of the power you're using at highway-speeds.
So how is this reflective glass, which may make a 5 difference, supposed to help AT ALL? Since the compressor runs all the time anyway, how is this supposed to make a difference?
And here's the thing: I see no quantifiable difference in my gas mileage between summer and winter. That's right... NONE. Maybe the lighter traffic during the summer months means I get better MPG, offsetting the 10% power drain of using the AC. Maybe it's that anything less than 5% is hard to calculate when you figure your mileage a tank at a time.
Or maybe it's just that automotive air conditioners leech so little power from your engine that it doesn't really make a difference...
Either way, it seems like the "no dark paint" proposal and now the "tinted glass" proposal are just CARB trying to look good doing something at the expense of Californians. They've done this over and over, costing Californians BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to no real end... I, for one am sick of it.
Between the debacle surrounding MTBE's (which put every independent gas station in CA out of business) and forcing farmers to rebuild all their (perfectly functioning) farm equipment, CARB has done nothing positive for this state and has done lots to hurt us.
Yes, pollution has gone down, but how much of this is because of CARB initiatives and how much is due to rising pollution and fuel economy standards that affect the whole country and have nothing to do with California's stupid rules?
Pretty soon, the only business left in California will be Hollywood, and with rising prices, even they'll be thinking about going elsewhere...
It blocks EM frequencies, but does it block zombies?
>But should be up to the customer.
No. It should be up to society. Some people are just too thick at act responsibly. And car manufacturers are hardly going to build cars for 'a few stupid idiots' - they will design a car and market it hard, and try to sell as many as possible. Regulating will take away the option to make cars suitable for the dumb.
That's not how we do things in the USA. People are free to buy the products they want - and it is their responsibility to select appropriately. If you live here and you don't like it, I suggest you leave and go somewhere where freedom is frowned upon, like the UK for example.
I drive very few miles. I drive a vehicle that does about 10MPG. I chose it because it's very very safe, extremely comfortable, and it was inexpensive compared to many other options. Because I drive very few miles, even at 10MPG I am using far less fuel and producing far less emissions than my neighbor who drives much further every day in their fuel efficient vehicle.
We don't need jerks like you mandating what everyone does just so you can feed your own self-righteous sense of self worth.
Putting moderation advice in your
Right. This proves that government would be the solution if we had absolutely superhuman, omniscient lawmakers.
The same standard might well apply to businesses, co-ops, non-profits, religions, and pretty much any other human organization.
The important isn't necessarily which kind of social institution you're bringing to bear on a problem, it's whether or not it's adaptable and accountable to the people it touches.
Tweet, tweet.
Does this mean the antenna thats in stalled on the body of the cars is useless somehow? radio waves don't go through metal? I thought metal was a good radio Wave pickup tool lol
Jack of all trades,master of none
If the state of California believes they need to regulate negative externalities resulting from the operation of internal combustion engines, then they should tax the operation of internal combustion engines across the board.
Instead, we have an authoritarian government telling us what light bulbs we can screw in, what size of televisions we can own, and now the brand of auto glass we use.
What we have here is government singling out specific groups, behaviors, and industries with coercive power in a manner that is anathema to individual liberty.
Economic liberty is a civil liberty.
I live in California, born and raised here. It is a wonderful place to live. It is also a FAILED state. Neither the people or the politicians have the backbone to do what is required to fix it. I don't blame anyone from leaving, I've been considering it seriously myself.
"Kittens give Morbo gas!"
The bad thing about government regulating any type of technology is that when a newer technology comes along we are stuck with the current laws and regulations. No doubt these will be highly expensive and susceptible to cracking. Three years from now we will read about California passing a new law making it illegal for drivers to hang their head out the window due to increased cases of decapitation. I'm sure Pelosi will have sold her stock in the windshield factory by then... Hopefully she doesn't invest in anal probes are we'll all be screwed...
Nothing about the evil ways of CARB is ever surprising. What's funny is that all of this could be avoided if they'd just let us tint the windows instead of using it as an excuse to rob us on the streets.
A new study finds that car pooling with more than one obese person in the car increases green house gas emissions. Thousands of Americans forced to walk to work...
After all, even Jeeps come with AC and anything to reduce the amount of heat getting into the car during the summer is a help. It might even reduce the fading and cracking that all plastic dashboards develop over the years from ultraviolet radiation. Besides -- isn't cell phone use while driving illegal now?
I ride a motorcycle ;)
(and I don't live in CA)
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
I'm surprised at much of the reaction to this topic. Slashdot is supposed to be home to a lot of good technical minds. So why is the dominant reaction to this article a general anti-government knee jerk? This is an engineering problem. Maybe there's a way to block the heating effects of light (very high frequency) while minimizing the attenuation of (much lower) radio frequencies. Sounds like a fun challenge to me.
Our technical minds are thinking of all the other government solutions we have had the last 6 months.
You must not be very familiar with California...
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
It was not an oversight. At least call it what it is, misguided, an error, pure mistake, uninformed, oblivious to the facts, but it was NOT an oversight.
An oversight would have been adding an exemption and then leaving it out. And even that is incompetence.
Or perhaps miswording it. Still incompetence.
We let our government off the hook all too easily. They claim to be smart people doing the right thing, or at the very least well-meaning people doing what they see as the right thing.
And their actions have consequences. We shoudl be holding them to account. Even the bureaucrats.
Maybe especially the bureaucrats. No, all of them...
(what was i thinking?)
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
CARB "scientists" aren't really considered as scientists by real scientists.
Shoot, even one of the "scientists" from CARB faked his credentials.
CARB's also behind MTBE which nationally was mandated by the Federal Clean Air Act of 1990 but was predated by California's own state law, California Clean Air Act of 1988.
And as early as 1986, there was a scientific report that stated that MTBE was a "bad cookie" (finding the exact copy is a tad difficult but it is referred by the USGS in a 1993 report)
A major local (to the Bay Area) opponent to CARB is Dr. Bill Wattenburg (an older version of his site is here)
And apparently, CARB wants to require particular" paints (PDF) and barring any scientific/engineering breakthrough, that probably means dark colored cars (black, dark blues, etc.)
And dang, CARB's budget for 2009-2010 is over 600 million, just the imagine how many teachers would have been spared lay-offs...or how many professors, TAs, faculty at UC/CSU schools would have been spared from furloughs.
Not to forget the CARB vs Diesel fiasco
Like someone once said: If a person wishes to rule, that person should in no way be given any power.
Yeah, the problem is that we seem to adapt only marginally to the alternatives, which are:
1) Randomly select (and periodically change) leadership
2) Distribute leadership over as much of the group as possible.
I suppose there's another model, which is to entirely eschew systemic power, but that runs on the assumption that if you don't architect a system there won't be one.
Tweet, tweet.
They would get rid of Ethanol. My mileage is always better when I fill up in Nevada.
Brought to you by the same morons who wanted to ban dark colored vehicles. Nuff said.
our tinfoil hats when we're in the new cars? Sounds like a big plus to me.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"That means radios, satellite radios, GPS, garage door openers, and cell phones will be severely degraded."
What is your point here? Many cars have external antenna's to boost the signal. And that is better for your health too :).
You should be very happy to live up there!
I wonder if this is going to affect ezpass toll systems, which use battery powered RFID transponders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ZPass
Our technical minds are thinking of all the other government solutions we have had the last 6 months.
You just proved my point.
Actually, the government does a LOT more than roads, schools, and police. I think if it were that simple, we wouldn't all be up in arms about the government and what they are doing.
I think, perhaps, its time you grow up and start thinking about the real role of government nowadays and quit taking notes from your 7th grade civics class. The role of government in ordinary lives is FAR larger than it has been at any point in our country (sans WWI and WWII). I got news for you kid, it ain't just roads, schools, and police they are getting into....
I could imprison and/or kill you because I find your actions offensive. And if it weren't for my own innate sense of morality, the government would be the only entity with the ability and the authority to stop me.
You are arguing from an innate anti-government bias, which is coloring your logic. I suspect that you are a very individualistic person with a higher degree of conscience and responsibility than most. Good for you. However, just because you may be, does not mean that your opinions about the nature of government are indeed fact.
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
The parent is correct, but a bit terse. I thought I'd elaborate a bit:
"Federal Reserve Board data shows that:
* More than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions.
* Private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers that year.
* Only one of the top 25 subprime lenders in 2006 was directly subject to the housing law that's being lambasted by conservative critics."
- http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/53802.html
The stats don't back up the idea that any public institution or law bears the brunt of the responsibility for problematic lending.
It also doesn't make much sense. Take the fingers pointed at the CRA. It didn't force banks to make risky loans. They could deny an application based on income, credit rating, or any other relevant factors. What it *did* force them to avoid was "red-lining": denying loans based on the current living location (used as a proxy for the applicant's race). A person's race and living location might have some correlation with risk of defaulting, but as we all know here on slashdot, correlation is not causation, and a responsible financial institution would deal with the more directly relevant information: an individual's income/asset information and their credit history.
Here's some other links:
http://www.ptmortgage.com/blog/2008/10/01/pointing-fingers-was-it-cra-and-minority-lending-that-caused-the-mortgage-mess/
http://debatebothsides.com/showthread.php?t=73500
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=did_liberals_cause_the_subprime_crisis
http://www.frbsf.org/news/speeches/2008/0331.html
http://www.ccc.unc.edu/news/news.021809.php
http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/Commentary/2000/1100.htm
http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/ls564.htm
Wikipedia also has a summary.
Tweet, tweet.
As opposed to all the wonderful private enterprise solutions
we had in the prior several years?
Derivatives, sub-prime mortgages, allowing banks to play the stock market...
The part that worries me is that the signals from GPS anklets are blocked too. Kind of defeats the laws about tracking offenders.
Supposedly Japan looked at this emission-blocking glass and gave up on the idea because it had too many drawbacks.
What happens when someone is trapped inside their vehicle and can't call 911 for help? This is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
[1] I don't talk on the phone when I drive, but I sometimes do if my wife is driving.
[2] Our cars are 1999 and 2007, and phones and GPSs work perfectly in both of them.
[3] If I did get a car with "California glass", I could install a zBoost YX230 mobile cell phone repeater ($179) and a TomTom external antenna ($25). Or splurge and get the $100 RDS-TMC traffic receiver.
Our GPS tracking systems use cell signals and they will usually track from inside the trunk of a car. I doubt the glass would prevent the signal from transmitting.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Almost all our problems could be solved by changing the state's constitution so that citizens don't directly vote on taxes and spending. It's a classic case of the individual doing what's best for themselves, but when everyone does that it hurts the entire society because no one is looking at the big picture and how individual decisions aggregate to the detriment of everyone.
If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
That is, a textbook example of a tragedy of the commons.
you can always move out of california.
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First of all, we need a citation on that Model-T mpg number. I am skeptical but I will take you at your word for the time being. Second, is it wrong? Well, no not really. I can't really say I am all that surprised about it. To demonstrate my point, lemme ask a few questions about your Model-T, if I may:
1. Did it have powered air conditioning?
2. Did it have a powered radio?
3. Power brakes?
4. Power steering?
5. Powered wipers?
Are you seeing the keyword yet or do I need to go on? Power has to come from somewhere. Where do you think all the features in a modern car are powered from?
As with all things engineering, there are trade-offs to be made.
Using your rationale, I should trade in my Chevy Tahoe and get a Model-T. Uhhhh, no thanks. You first.
It's a little different when talking about taxes and spending though because there's not an actual "commons" that is being destroyed unless you consider the solvency of the government to be a commons. The psychology behind it is exactly the same though.
If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
It requires a supermajority to raise taxes and a simple majority to cut authorized services, and sufficient votes in the Legislature don't currently exist to do either except in various means that have low visibility or which can be obfuscated as not really being either one of those even though they, in fact, are.
This is not the same as there being "no political will" to do either, however. Its that California has a Constitutional system which, compared to (for instance) the US federal system, structurally produces impasse very frequently because routine decisions require much broader support (the fact that it also requires a substantial supermajority to pass the annual budget is an example of this, and is also frequently pointed to as a symptom of a lack of political will; its not, particularly, though; other state governments and the federal government don't have as big of a problem with routine tasks not because they have greater "political will", but because they don't, for the most part, have structural rules set up that are quite as effective at preventing action that has majority support.)
Not really. You'll find that, by and large, the people advocating for service cuts and voting against tax increases (whether on the wealthy or even regressive taxes like sin tax or general sales tax increases) are not the people arguing for massive spending cuts, not the same people arguing to maintain programs. The problem is not that there is one group of people that wants taxes not to be increased (and, generally, to be decreased) and also wants programs maintained, the problem is that there are two distinct groups of people, one of whom wants no taxes increased and the more progressive taxes reduced, and one of whom want to minimize cuts to programs, and neither of these groups has sufficient votes to enact its own preferences, but each still has sufficient votes to prevent its opposition from being able to have an unqualified success in implementing its preferences, producing all kinds of chaotic, incoherent policy.
This gets chalked up with the idea of painting all roads and roofs white.
Man-made climate change is nothing more than mass hysteria.
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All you people talking on cell phones are endangering we pedestrians, cyclists, motorbike riders, and our kids.
So I'm glad they're blocking you from using cell phones that aren't tied into a cars own bluetooth vehicle rebroadcast.
Using a cell phone in a car, or texting on your blackberry, is the same as having downed EIGHT SHOTS OF VODKA.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
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My VW has special glass that prevents the interior from
heating up and it works *great*. Park the thing on blacktop
all day in the hot summer sun and the interior barely gets
warm at all. Orders of magnitude more comfortable than cars
with regular glass. I assume the glass is low-e although VW
didn't describe it as such.
The glass is no darker than normal factory tinted glass.
The garage door opener remote works fine.
For those of you whining about the heavy hand of government,
there are many far worse problems than requiring decent
glass in cars. Many of these problems are discussed in
slashdot so you ought to be aware of them.
> we do not have thermostatic regulators on cars that vary
> the work of the compressors
Maybe yours doesn't but mine does.
The glass blocks cell signals? Cell phone antennas are weak anyway. You can buy external antennas that mount on your card (like police use) and either re-broadcast inside the vehicle or plug directly in (if your phone has a plug).
Wilson Electronics is one manufacturer of this kind of equipment. (My company is a dealer.)
Honestly I'd like to see vehicle manufacturers give an option to have this kind of equipment built in to a vehicle.
Will this attenuate my HERF gun? I'm gonna miss the sight of cell phone drivers spinning off the road with a handful of melting plastic...
CARB is the *ONLY* reason I keep my old diesel truck. The only other reason other than CARB is the fact that my truck simply will not die. It smokes (just legally), lacks expensive pollution control, is exempt from regulations restricting performance parts, and can easily be converted from 'polluting' (Ringelmann #2 or greater. I crank it up to #5 if I'm feeling especially vindictive) to 'legal' (Ringelmann #1 or less) whenever someone reports me to CARB for an "Excessively Smoking Vehicle". And yes, that is legal, just in case you were wondering. For all you Liberals out there screaming "Bloody murder!", think of this as a PROTEST in the form of civil disobedience against an unjust authority. Your types seem to be familiar with that, yet you can't seem to recognize one whenever they pop up and rear their ugly heads.
CARB has the authority to impose regulation at will. This coupled with the fact that despite the lead "scientist" for one of its new diesel regulations FAKED HIS CREDENTIALS yet they still voted for the new rules, shows that they are so corrupt and inept that even open fraud among their own is not enough to stop them. The fact that CARB will not allow fraud among one of its own to impede their decisions is reason enough to strip them of their authority to impose rules without a vote among those that they are regulating. This is akin to Congress acting without public votes or support, but with Congress Critters being appointed by the President for indefinite terms, and not voted into office by the people. Imagine how well *that* would go over.....
CARB's at-will regulation, willful disregard of internal corruption, and unchecked power over the citizenry is reason enough to strip them of their regulatory powers. However, CARB *should* be reduced to an advisory body, composed of TRUE SCIENTISTS that study proposed regulatory ideas for their effect, and advise voters to approve or disapprove proposed regulations. CARB is currently an Oligarchy; They propose and impose whatever regulations that they see fit at will, and the citizenry is required by law to follow those regulations under threat of penalty, be it a massive fine or imprisonment or BOTH.
Oh, and if any CARB sympathizers are reading this: NEENER NEENER NEE-NER! YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME! I'M POLLUTING AND YOU CAN'T STOP ME! SMOG CHECK? MAKE ME! GO AHEAD AND TRY!
Ahhhhh, juvenile moments are so refreshing.....
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Mexican bitch, get the fuck off the internet and go back to Mexico.
Because I find the inevitable apoplectic reaction from a certain type of person, hilarious.
My Mercedes already has glass like that and it doesn't pose a problem with any of those electronic gadgets. Plus, there is a couple of "clear" areas on the windscreen where you can stick the antenna's if needed.
The need for air conditioning comes from several vectors:
- sunlight on the roof and other panels, heating the car
- sunlight on the glass windows, heating the car
- sunlight entering the car and heating the car
They seem to be focused on the last one of those three. It would seem they have never touched the metal surface of a car that has been in the sunshine all day.
When I drive with A/C on, I always try to enable it to blow onto the glass (rather than at me) because by cooling the glass windscreen, I'm going a long way to eliminating one of the major sources of heat. For a little while there is hot hair blowing at me but it doesn't take long for the windscreen to cool down and the rest of the car follows pretty quickly after that. Works a hell of a lot better just than blowing cold air at my face/feet.
Mistrust for government judgment may be founded but the effects covered in the article is all speculation. It has several quotes with "may produce" or "may cause". There is no reference to any documented research. Well, the claim that it may cure cancer is about as well founded. In terms of frequency, any of the applications mentioned for possible degradation are several order of magnitudes away from even the low end the infrared range. The highest one, GPS, is less than two gigahertz; infrared is in the mid-terahertz range. It should be straightforward to separate them. Garmin's supposed testing consisted of what?
The automakers have to object to anything that may add to cost; they gain by making it sound like the regulations are the sole reason that the price of the car increases and nothing to lose. Hence, they will.
The idea of absorbing rather than reflecting is not a good one. With absorption, the window itself will rise in temperature and contribute to interior warming by both radiation and conduction. Reflection is better although reflected sunshine may blind other drivers ;^)
The tax is for the privilage of using the vehicle in the state, not exporting it, etc. as prohibited by the constitution.
Michigan (and most others) have USE taxes for all items purchased outside the state; if you use it in the state, you have to prove that you paid at least as much sales tax in the other state as you would have in MI, or you have to pay the use tax which just happens to be the same 6% as the MI sales tax.
This was enacted long, long ago first to discourage people from shopping across the border, then to discourage people from mail-ordering when they could shop locally, and it nicely fits in with internet shoppers the same way. The place to fill in any use tax in on the tax form wasn't the obvious in the past, but for the last several years, MI has made it very obvious so that you can't miss it.
Now for most things the state has a hard time proving that you purchased something outside for use within, although with credit cards and databases this is probably getting easier. With vehicles that have to be registered, it is very easy.
McFly777
- - -
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
How about passing a law which mandates that no laws can be passed which mandate the use of a particular product or process, only the desired end result?
In this case, why not pass a law which says that cars must be manufactured to reduce the average use of electricity, aircon gas, or whatever they were on about (or that internal cooling efficiency/effectiveness must be at least a certain minimum)? That way, car makers can either use the special glass, or find other (possibly better) ways to achieve the same ends.
I think they just created a new market...
Because cars never have passengers, obviously...
FCC has rules against blocking cellphone signals, or interfering with radio reception in general.
I'm guessing the rules target active blocking rather or active interference, since Stucco houses are legal yet I can't get a TV or radio signal inside mine.
Oh well, it was a good thought anyway.
Or should that be Prii? Anyhow they use the solar panel roof to run the A/C unit. Will those have to have the special glass?
As for GPS? No biggy, your portable unit should (I haven't seen one in a while that didn't) have a port for an external antenna. The real issue will be AM reception if it does lower frequencies, since that really relies on the bar antenna within the radio (which incidentally after market radios suck at receiving compared to factory radios), FM, and after market remote start/alarm systems. The signal may not be completely blocked, but the range will most likely be diminished.
Posting to erase wrong modding. Somebody mod the guy up for me...
I think that a lot of people in the USA have become MUCH more insular. Elsewhere, mostly in Europe, we now have the government working for us, and there is a lot of diversity.
Particularly, post 1989, people understand what is important, and intend to get control of their governments.
It isn't that government is intrinsically bad, just it usually is, and becomes corrupt quickly, IF it can be BOUGHT. In the modern world only DIRECT DEMOCRACY eg Schweiz can stand against the culture of corruption.
Holy friking shiznits! get me out of this friking state jeeze outlaw black cars ti this. Why cant we get rid of these f#$ktards!
What a crock of shit.
The USA that actually exists, rather than the fantasy one ideologues like to fantasise about, has all manner of regulations.
Far from existing "just so you can feed your own self-righteous sense of self worth" they exist for public benefit. For example lead content in paint is limited. Tetra-ethyl lead usage in petrol is banned. Both for fairly obvious reasons.
So if you want to argue against this, I suggest you do so by arguing there isn't sufficient public benefit to warrant intervention because pretending that there is a USA that doesn't legislate for the public interest (and with good reason) just makes you look delusional.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
They're already talking about banning dark color cars: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/26/AR2009032603316.html
While at the same time mandating that we only use darker color paints: http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/cool-paints/draft_regs_coolcars_032709.pdf
My big problem with all this behavior legislation is that I want a black sports car because it makes me happy, and I'm willing to pay a lot of extra money in order to get it. The government of a free country should not stop that pursuit. The stupid car is supposed to get poor MPG! It's a damn race car! And it's black because black is the best color and I'll keep driving black race cars until they make a darker color race car. It costs me more money not you. So stay the hell outa my business!
They have already invented a solution to this problem that doesn't block radios, cellphones and GPS.
Its called Window Tinting and it seems to work fine in most places on this planet.
I am confused how this made it past even the loose quality control at Slashdot... Let's see....
"radios, satellite radios, GPS, garage door openers, and cell phones will be severely degraded."
1. Radios, no... 99.9% of cars have external antennas...
2. Satellite Radios... hmm this is a bit redundant, since radios were also mentioned, but typically these have external antennas as well, and can certainly be fitted with them.
3. GPS... this almost always is external in an y GPS built into the car.
4. Garage door openers... well in the worst case, you can hold this out the window... plus "degraded" doesn't really make sense here, either it works, or it doesn't.
5. Cell Phones... all I can say is thank god. The driver shouldn't be talking on the phone, and really the passengers probably don't need to be either. But, you could always open the windows, or realize that many hands free kits have external antennas that feed in.
I would be much more worried about Easy-Pass or ETC type systems, but they are like the garage door opener, in that they work or don't work. .. external.
There is also the issue of the "data module" GSM/3G modems in Lexus/Prius, etc., but those are also
The poster is indeed wrong that the CRA was the problem, but what you and other left wingers gloss over was the point that Fannie Mae was at fault.
Fannie could write commercial paper to lend based on the implicit guarantee by the US government. So Fannie did exactly that, and really went crazy with it. This money, they used to lend to people with questionable ratings and at interest rates that were, in effect, a subsidy.
Banks, of course, were not "forced" to make the same sorts of loans. They had the choice of either not writing the same junk and lending to the same people as Fannie, or losing the entire mortgage business to the government.
Conservatives did rail on about this for a long time. First off, of course, was the government subsidy of the mortgage business distorting the housing market. But even worse, is that the high returns caused by MBS drowned out investment in other sectors, for decades, so, thanks to the government program, America invested in building houses while other nations built things like manufacturing centers, etc. But of course, those warnings were dismissed and repeatedly by the left using its usual ad-hominem attacks. Opposition to Fannie Mae was mean spirited, racists, etc... Of course, left wing policies have so screwed up minorities in the USA economically that one should argue the left is racist, but I digress...
In any case, the fact of the matter is, if you have a government subsidizing a quasi public institution, you create a bubble for it, screw up investment in the economy at large, and of course, Democrats, undeterred by the total destruction of our housing market, are about to do it to health care.
It's just stupid.
Or is it?
Frankly, I would be willing to bet that the left -deliberately- ignores dangers created to the private sector by the federal programs because if the private sector is destroyed, we can all be socialized. It's like, all you hear from the left is this rhetoric about how free enterprise is evil,
So, in my mind, I would think you lefties would at least be honest revolutionaries and say that yes, your programs will eventually replace the private sector with the public sector and you are in favor of it. It's what you want, why lie about it?
This is my sig.
The private sector is already doing something much more stupid
Stupid for you, not for me. I don't like that kind of glass. If I don't want my car to get hot, I roll the windows down.
This is my sig.
After reading the story all I can find is speculation. Is there any facts present that this actually reduces radio frequencies? And if so what is the frequency range?
I want to know the range because currently inside of my vehicle I pick up a lot of 34.7 ghz and the last thing I want is to have my windows reduce those signals. Buying a good external antenna costs a lot.
So, does anyone know the freq range? Does this news story have any facts present at all to it?
We have internet in Mexico you dumb fuck... Aparte de racista, pendejo
as it's one way to get Maria off that damned phone in the car!
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Shouldn't you be DRIVING YOUR CAR instead of worrying about what radio station you can hear or when that meeting is at work?
Will these windows block the RFID chips that these same sort of bureaucrats will later mandate we have implanted in us for tracking purposes? Seems like they are causing a new problem for future bureaucrats to solve. LOL
Reception for things like radios is a EXTERNAL antenna on the car. Same is true if you've properly installed a stand for your mobile phone. As for your remote-control for opening the parking gate, that is so short range I doubt it will be affected (and you can always open the window). Sorry, this alarmist report sounds like nonsense to me.
your tin foil beanies reflect the "bad rays" as good as any of these new fangled glass things. A big plus is all those black helecopters that CA launched wont be able to read your mind!
Do they realize that, if they achieve their goal of turning California back to the way it was when Alta California was a province of Mexico, there will be no one to pay the taxes which fund their paychecks?
Why do you want to use your cellphone in your car?
You shouldn't be using it while driving. It's worse than being over the drunk driver limit.
If you've stopped, how about opening the bloody door?
And all that needs to be done, though this isn't as simple as it sounds I would reckon, is to take the GPS antennae out to the radio antenna sticking out the back of your car.
And how often do you use your GPS anyway? Don't you know where you're driving?
Unsafe working practices increase the bottom line and that money goes not to you but to the CEO and BoD.
When you die from them, the company may (note MAY) have to pay a fine and clean up their act but the money comes from the workers who miss a pay rise and/or the consumers who pay a higher price in the future.
They can kill you, kid.
Sounds like someone with a new expensive glass technique has their hands in the pockets and perhaps down the pants of someone at CARB
Consider yourself blessed if you are sneezed on by a dragon and only get wet, it could have been a fireball.
Damn - I guess today was the enforced state workers' furlough day, huh?
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
Jeff Cooper obviously never met Ghandi or Martin Luther King, Jr. Both overcame evil without bullets.
It may not be easy, and you don't get that satisfying Hollywood-type revenge, but most civilization-level improvements come not from bullets, but from ideas.
I can't think of a good way to test for those who can actually not be distracted by a phone
Really? You can't?
Because researchers have put people into driving simulators and had them drive while various distractions occurred then watched for mistakes. Turns out they make a lot more mistakes when talking on the phone than when listening to the radio.
How they stumbled upon this super-sophisticated experimental methodology, I'll never know! They must be geniuses.
shouldn't the net emissions be the goal, rather than mandating specific technologies?
Are you new to this country?
The lobbyist that got this written (or wrote it himself) did not work for society, he worked for a specialty glass corporation. Why would he want rules for the betterment of society when instead he could have rules for the betterment of his patron? And of course, he'll still use the betterment of society as his argument.
For those of us who like having some defense against revenuers, note that this glass will also block radar detectors.
Positive for the toll-booth operators in CA, of course. More fines!
- - - Non Caffeine Drink or Drink Error
This is the same California where a city came hilariously close to banning products containing DHMO. It is entirely plausible. Just imagine they require this glazed glass for all road vehicles. Boom, it's on motorcycle fairings.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Sadly this is not funny. The CARB (California air resources board) are the same folks that were responsible for the MTBE fiasco in California which poluted all of our reservoirs in exchange for slightly cleaner air. I don't think it's totally unreasonable to ask what they haven't tested in this new required glass material...
Hopefully it won't outgas fumes that corrode copper wires or anything like that when baked daily under 100+ deg Farenheit parking lots (wait, that was only untested drywall), but you know what I mean ;^)
Even it only blocked GPS and cell phones, I guess law enforcement has to give up their cell-phone ping tracking evidence gathering scheme. Civil righters rejoice?
So this really only effects devices that already don't have external antennas e.g. cell phones, aftermarket GPS devices and Radar Detectors. As soon as an automaker is required to include this, they'll also need to include a repeater for cellphones. Most cars will probably have built in GPS by the time this goes through, so that just leaves radar detectors, which will need external pickups.
For some reason I'm picturing cars with 3-4 different antenna nubs sticking out for cell, gps, fm, am, radar, satellite radio, etc... canceling out any real benefits.
Or alternatively, cheap fractal antennas with passive or active repeaters (although I would imagine active would ruin GPS timing).
Bullshit. The problem with the housing market was the securitization of mortgage debt, and insurance of that debt in a heavily deregulated market
Fannie Mae popularized mortgage backed securities, that's the point you miss. Fannie Mae floated this crap out to the market noting that they were going to use their existing asset base to raise a trillion dollars (at first), and put a bazillion people into houses. They used that money to seed more loans, and then used the loans they seeded to float even more securities. They've been borrowing money to borrow money now for 20 years and the only people that have been really protesting the chicanery was the right wing.
Still, I don't understand why so many lefties protest this. They got what they wanted to. They've been wanting to destroy capitalism and have the government run housing now for a 100 years and now they've succeeded in some good measure. Fannie Mae is now more than ever property of the US government, many banks have exited the mortgage market, commercial banking, which was the engine of American capitalism, is now dead.
And, not only that, you liberals have every chance to destroy private medicine as well and steal that for the government. So, you should be happy. But instead, oh no, you can't even communicate honestly that the sharp reduction in everyone's standard of living is consistent with your liberal puritanical goals of having everyone be equal but poor.
This is my sig.
So what? Car manufacturers can just include a passive repeater. It's not a big deal.
No, I will not work for your startup