Slashdot Mirror
Google Attackers Identified as Chinese Government
forand writes Researchers, examining the attacks on Google and over 20 other companies in December, have determined 'the source IPs and drop server of the attack correspond to a single foreign entity consisting either of agents of the Chinese state or proxies thereof.'"
Coming to a planet near you.
âoeAny society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
It couldn't be them. China would never do anything wrong.
That... or they'll just blame it on their status as a "developing nation" and that they shouldn't be held to the same standards as everyone else.
Oh there's a big surprise! That's an incredible - I think I'm going to have a heart attack and die of not surprise!
now that its clear that the attackers were government agents the question is what will the US state department do.
If that does not generate a stern response of some western politicians it will be a very bad sign
It's hardly a secret that governments conduct cyber-espionage - what seems shocking in this instance is that they have been caught and that a major company, a telecoms giant and the US government have all gone on the offensive. This seems like a pretty dramatic shift, and you have to wonder what China's really done to provoke such a reaction after everyone's spent the last decade quietly appeasing them to try and get a foothold in their markets. It sounds like reading the subject lines of a few Chinese activists' emails is only the tip of the ice berg in this case, it'll be interesting to see what else has yet to be revealed.
This is probably why Google has threaten to leave China in the first place. Just using the filtering issue as the public excuse.
Until the "independent" hackers turn into criminal gangs and/or rebels and turn on them.
So what are we going to do about it? By we, I mean we as:
1. a body of corporations (those 20 or so affected)
2. a nation
3. a global community of nations (UN)
4. a cybercommunity
What can we do, and what is most likely to happen?
If a foreign government had attacked non-digital assets of any US corporation, you would expect some kind of formal reprisal. Maybe not an airdrop of Marines, but certainly something more than Hilary Clinton threatening to write a stern letter.
What I have not doped out yet to my own satisfaction is whether the tepid response from Washington is the fault of the current administration, confusion regarding the digital nature of the breach and assets, or a little of both.
Who didn't see that one coming from a mile away? I called it the moment I read that there was a sophisticated attack on Google.
Whether its all fabricated or not, I like the idea of Google pulling out of China. Google is one of the leading innovators in the western world - and by keeping their services out of China it sends a message to the government: Stop Oppression.
and tell them how proud you are that they finally took a stance befitting their "do no evil" stance. Better late than never, and they deserve our support for this courageous action. I for one have changed my mind about them significantly based on this single action alone.
Doesn't surprise me. Doesn't everyone know that it was them all along?
google builds self-destructing data-centers that explode and erase all data when the chinese seize them...
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
If the EU can fine a US company for what amounted to unfair business practices, what should the US do to China? Debt? What debt?
You do... I don't... I am sorry. China's success is based on them slowly taking elements of our culture combined with the fact that they have a country with the worlds highest population Having about a billion more people then the United States (300 million) occupying the same geographical size, and having many of the same resources. The question isn't wow look how strong china is, it is why isn't china so much more powerful. It is because their government/culture doesn't work well.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Idiot AC is trying to troll by calling others trolls. Amen.
No. It’s more of an I-told-you-so directed at anybody who ever doubted it.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
I know it was you, China. You broke my heart. You broke my heart!
sincerely,
Google.
Working for a Defense contractor, one of our systems was compromised. Fortunately, the idiot who gained access screwed up SSH which alerted us to what was going on, and prevented them from erasing their tracks. All SSH connections were from computers in China. They've been doing this for years, and no one has really called them on it until now. It takes Google to make a big enough splash before anyone really pays attention to it.
This question is repeated endlessly at almost every major world event, "Does this come as a surprise to anyone?"
Stop already, its just a useless waste of bits.
...embargo on!
... and that's why they hacked the emails of those human right activists?
The last time China was called on this, several members of the US Congress had their machines pwned. The reply from China? "We are not advanced enough to do this." Whatever.
After RTFA it seems the only thing solid is that command server was located in China, them belonging to "agents of the Chinese state or proxies thereof" remain pure speculation at this point unless some one come out and provide evidence that links to the government ,such as registration records or money trail etc. This could still well be the works by some local hacker groups, and since the servers being attacked is outside of China they are not even breaking local laws there. Though I wouldn't be surprised they have a wink-wink relationship with the local police.
Well duh...
(I am honestly surprised that I haven't seen someone post that comment yet.)
Yes, of course that can be. But if you or someone else (maybe the Chinese government) really think that that is the case, they have to prove it before making accusations.
This is the answer, and we all know it.. If we move all our industries out of China, it becomes nothing but an empty husk. Google doesn't really have a lot to lose by exiting China, but it certainly makes for big headlines when they decide to do so. Maybe other corporations will follow. The only way Western countries stand a chance in the next 20 years is if we disentangle ourselves from China.
Due to the "Great firewall of China", don't all outgoing connections from China have to go through a government-owned proxy server?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
The Wall Street Journal had a great article about some of the details behind the scenes of this particular incident, and also another article that did a good job of summarizing what has been discussed here over the last couple of years. The main stream media is openly stating that the People's Liberation Army is actively encouraging "citizen cyber militias" to conduct "cyber attacks" (good Lord how I hate that term) against foreign (read, United States) corporations. Although they haven't gone so far as to state that those militias have active backing of the government, they have said that the government is turning a blind eye to their activities. Furthermore, the WSJ goes on to state that there are United States agencies involved in similar espionage activities.
Given that background, it seems like hacking Chinese companies should be fair game for up and coming "security researchers" here in the United States. In the 1990s the United States government made it quite clear that they were going to come down hard on people who mess with government and Fortune 500 systems. Given the option between really securing the systems and punishing those who exploit the lack of security, they went with the latter. A lot of people, myself included, decided that once we turned 18 and faced the threat of real Federal prosecution, the wise move was to turn off the war dialers, stop snarfing ESN/MIN pairs out of the air, and stop trying to run exploit code against computers that we don't control.
We can't hone our craft in the United States anymore. Although there is a whole market for securing IT resources against attack, there isn't a playground to pick up skills in. My suggestion is that China is that playground. My suggestion is that Chinese corporations in the United States are the targets. I mean lets face it, there are hundreds of thousands of compromised computers in the United States. The United States government can't be held accountable for malicious activity directed toward Chinese corporations. It would be unfortunate for those entities to be DDoS'd. It would be unfortunate for their internal workstations to be the target of vulnerability research.
I can't find the link to the actual report in TFA.
I don't doubt that there's a strong suggestion that the Chinese government was somehow involved in the intrusion attempts mentioned by Google, and generally it isn't Google's habit to lie or deceive in these high profile matters.
But two days after the Google announcement a report comes out saying "yes it's the Chinese government, yes it's them!"? Without obvious links to the actual report?
I just sense it's just the "security companies" trying to ride the PR bandwagon. I mean, it's just on everybody's mind, and "somebody had to say it out aloud". So you cobble together related bits and pieces and make a grand pronouncement, making everybody happy. But does it prove anything? Not until we find the evidence. Until then it's all just hearsay.
Besides, would you really base your conclusions on findings from "VeriSign's iDefense security lab"? From the company who tried to f*ck up NXDOMAIN?
This is not the end of the story. I suspect more juicy bits will come through.
Don't quote me on this.
Gmail, the aspect of Google that was being hacked is not available in China.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
The premise is that China hacked Google to access the accounts of these Chinese Human rights activists. Given that Google already complies with Chinese law, why did China not openly contact Google over this?
Sorry, but the only sort of "Stop Oppression" message a totalitarian state ever pays attention to is the the type that's steel-jacketed and arrives at a velocity of 930 m/s.
A "stiff letter of diplomatic protest" doesn't cut it.
Regards;
Doesn't the NSA already monitor and filter through Chinese internet traffic?
I'd rather have my information stolen by someone having the break in the backdoor (China) to get it then have them drive up to the drive-thru window and order it (US). At least the chinese have some concept of a battle. Here in the US we elect the people to bend us over.
even more fun if your computer uses processors that were fabbed in China, I suspect. else why would DoD have a certified fab system to insure there are no back doors?
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Their famous "Don't be evil" motto will be very slightly clarified as:
"Don't be evil (but being nasty to the Chinese government is not evil)."
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
They're a developing nation, that's all. They were late to the industrial revolution, they were late to the computer revolution--although other nations had been using them for cheap labor, they lacked internal expertise in the technology. They're just late, is all.
Their GDP per capita is growing and will continue growing and will likely plateau like ours did, barring any new revolution in business.
The trade deficit through China is still in our favor - appears to be over 200 billion if I was looking at the right website.
Also consider the nature of the goods being traded - if a large percentage of the goods coming from China are consumer goods, it isn't going to hurt us that bad to get in a trade war, it will just drive up prices for crap that really isn't that vital.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
In the article it says they located the Command and Control box. I did a little investigation of my own and see what they mean. It's oh so obvious this was perpetrated by the Chinese government. Just look at the facts!
joe@joe-nix:~$ whois PwnedC&CServer.org .ORG WHOIS information is provided to assist persons in
NOTICE: Access to
determining the contents of a domain name registration record in the Public Interest Registry
registry database. The data in this record is provided by Public Interest Registry
for informational purposes only, and Public Interest Registry does not guarantee its
accuracy. This service is intended only for query-based access. You agree
that you will use this data only for lawful purposes and that, under no
circumstances will you use this data to: (a) allow, enable, or otherwise
support the transmission by e-mail, telephone, or facsimile of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations to entities other than
the data recipient's own existing customers; or (b) enable high volume,
automated, electronic processes that send queries or data to the systems of
Registry Operator or any ICANN-Accredited Registrar, except as reasonably
necessary to register domain names or modify existing registrations. All
rights reserved. Public Interest Registry reserves the right to modify these terms at any
time. By submitting this query, you agree to abide by this policy.
Domain ID:D2289308-LROR
Domain Name:PwnedC&CServer.org
Created On:05-Oct-1997 04:00:00 UTC
Last Updated On:11-Dec-2009 20:14:46 UTC
Expiration Date:04-Oct-2010 04:00:00 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
Status:OK
Registrant ID:Bob@PRC.gov
Registrant Name:Host Master
Registrant Organization:People's Republic of China, duh!
Registrant Street1:Main Street
Registrant Street2:HQ for Cyber Warface against Capitalistic West
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Bejing
Registrant State/Province:
Registrant Postal Code:
Registrant Country:CN
Registrant Phone:+1-800-Yur-Pwnd
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:Bob@PRC.gov
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin"
Storm
What kind of /.'r do you think I am to have a girlfriend?
Pshh I snort at you sir, now excuse while I go back to my parents basement to play WoW.
It's hardly a secret that governments conduct cyber-espionage - what seems shocking in this instance is that they have been caught and that a major company
All governments spy. Its just good business to know what is happening next door. However, there is quite a bit of difference between keeping tabs on what other governments are doing, and aggressively stealing everything that isn't nailed down.
A good analogy for this situation is that spying is eavesdropping. What China is doing is kicking in doors and stealing everything in sight. The former is expected to some degree by governments. The latter isn't.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
The government/culture of The People's Republic of China has only been in existence for about 70 years. Before that, it was the nationalistic Republic of China for about 35 years. And before that, it was an hereditary monarchy or thousands of year.
Maybe you should pick up a history book some time.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Identified by a US asset.
don't forget that.
Web server log entries from the past 8-9 years show 95% of the attempted break-ins originating from China. They've been checking the locks on the doors and windows for along time. But, when I suggest that we simply block all IPs from that part of the world (I usually added a course explicative that conveyed that they could make sex with themselves), management says no. I'm a full-blooded capitalist and believe in the power of a free market and society, but this is ethics, pure and simple. If I were Google, I'd be spinning off large team of people to start working on hacking into anything in the PRC they can find. If the "Law of the Land" condones computer breaking-and-entering then, by God, full steam ahead!
All major defense contractors and military networks should host social networking sites geared toward anti-chinese discussions. That way, China's great firewall will block access to them, thereby preventing any further attacks from the Chinese.
The current Chinese government has only been at it for about 60 years.
Isn't the use of Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi against the Geneva convention? We could get in a lot of trouble.
There is a loophole that allows for such tactics. In theory, the ineffectiveness of either would be a suitable deterrent.
On the other hand, we could send in Mrs. Tiger Woods with a 3-iron. Now THAT would be forbidden as a weapon of mass destruction.
Your conspiracy theory is inside-out.
The ways this is supposed to work is that you explain something hard to understand at the cost of assuming something that is hard to swallow. It's all about faultless logic proceeding from readily manufactured premises.
Although there is no evidence that the NSA is monkeying with Chinese search engine traffic, if we look at it as a hypothetical scenario, it doesn't contradict anything we know about the world. That makes this a weak conspiracy theory premise. You're supposed to start from a premise that is implausible ("organized labor is conspiring with the bankers"). What's the point of a conspiracy theory that is based on plausible premises? One might as well form a plain old theory.
On the other hand, your theory fails to explain China's actions. Why would they need to break into the email accounts of their political critics *in order to address the problem of NSA spying*? It doesn't follow. What we're supposed to get by believing your theory's crazy premise is a slam-dunk conclusion to some mystery. Not only is the thing we want explained no mystery, if we buy into your theory we don't get any explanation at all. It's a dead end, because there's no logical connection.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Probably just a few rouge ones wanting to help out papa state.
Do they have decent healthcare over there? It might be scarlet fever, and that's quite infectious...
I'm having some trouble finding the original idefense report on this. Can anyone help a comrade out?
He's talking about how their culture and government are doing in this era. Age hasn't got anything to do with it. Neither has his culture got anything to do with the accuracy of his evaluation.
I don't really agree with him and I'm interested in hearing opposing viewpoints. But I'm not interested in hearing stupid bullshit that attacks the arguer and ignores the argument. Just saying.
Google was already thinking to leave in September. From Forbes last month. http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/21/google-baidu-internet-intelligent-technology-fannin.html
The current Chinese government has only been at it for about 60 years.
The GP shouldn't have questioned the value of their culture if he wanted to limit his thoughts to that timeframe.
You can't take the sky from me...
and wait for the next human rights atrocity they commit and repeat?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Western culture goes back to the ancient Greeks, Hebrews, Phoenicians, and even Egyptians. It is extremely likely that Western culture and Chinese culture share a lot of similar roots, and they definitely did a lot of cultural trading throughout the millennia. So clearly you are not referring to culture with your 'few thousand years' statement.
As for the current government, it's only been around for sixty or so. During that time they killed millions with famine caused specifically by poor government policy (the great leap forward: people were literally eating their own children. It was horrible). Then they killed and tortured millions more, in the temper tantrum of the youth known as the Cultural Revolution. This was once again encouraged and caused by poor government policy.
Furthermore, I don't think I need to go over all the things the government currently does that violates human rights. Let's just say when the torch came to San Francisco, protesters had to color coordinate so they could keep track of what exactly they were protesting.
Qxe4
He's talking about how their culture and government are doing in this era.
Better than ever, by all accounts.
Age hasn't got anything to do with it. Neither has his culture got anything to do with the accuracy of his evaluation.
If his culture is tinted with jingoism, making him spew nationalistic prattle, it has a lot to do with it.
I don't really agree with him and I'm interested in hearing opposing viewpoints. But I'm not interested in hearing stupid bullshit that attacks the arguer and ignores the argument. Just saying.
Then you shouldn't be happy that his ignorant bile gets modded up, nor should you be defending it.
And BTW, thanks for calling my reply "stupid bullshit", it really illustrate just how much you hate it when people attack the arguer and how much you value opposing viewpoints. Just saying.
You can't take the sky from me...
I think you need to give the Chinese more credit. As you've said, they have a billion more people than we do, yet those people are living on a similar sized landmass with similar resources. If there were a billion more people in America tomorrow, you can bet your ass that the interests on Wall Street would be aligned with Washington and implementing some serious production and other controls on the population. Look at what a big deal illegal immigration is. Americans are already stingy with resources and concerned about maintaining vague notions like "quality of life" for naturalized citizens. You can bet your ass that if there were a billion more people here, we'd have a Politburo like organization doing whatever was necessary to maintain their status while at the same time doing everything necessary to prevent a full on social uprising.
If you think China's government isn't effective, you have a very narrow view of the world. Spend a few hours researching what China is up to in Africa, and then contrast that with how well our State and Defense Departments are doing in that part of the world. Take a look at who is winning oil contracts in Iraq... Here, I'll save you the work (http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/05/news/international/iraq_oil/index.htm .. http://moneymorning.com/2008/08/22/china-iraq/) The Chinese don't have "terrorists" attacking their homeland because of misguided foreign policy blunders (warning, potential red herring).
Try "You can have this regular chocolate for 49 cents, or this 'fair trade' chocolate for 15 dollars".
Slow Down, Cowboy! It's been 60 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment.
Western culture goes back to the ancient Greeks, Hebrews, Phoenicians, and even Egyptians.
The whole of western culture VS one nation's culture? Apples and orange.
You can't take the sky from me...
That is exactly why Google doesn't have any major data centers in China- so not a lot.
Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
Does this come as a surprise to anyone? :-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
I can handle the interweb attacks, at least we're not still being fed lead toys...oh wait...we still are...
Ave Molech Setting
Hardly, or do you think Western culture and beliefs were created in 1776?
Everybody in China can be on NAT behind the government firewall and content filter.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
You assume the US and China have an economic goal. China could easily turn it into a VERY expensive weapon.
Never got any money back for a cruise missle either. Don't assume that money means financial.
In fact, the government/culture of the current PRC is probably younger than PRC itself. Likely just some 30 something years. The Cultural Revolution is not very long (in the time line of history), but had huge negative impact in the culture afterward. And then the people born in the 80's and 90's also have quite a different culture because of their "starting point" (hence early experience) in (their) history.
I wouldn't call the greedy since otherwise they would need to charge money for it.
More like YOU are greedy for wanting a free service without letting Google have a way to profit from it.
I don't understand why, if Google cares about its intellectual property, they don't have it secured against foreign attack. I even more will not understand, once they've been attacked, if they get attacked successfully again. Is it just me that is confused about why Google, and the US government secrets for that matter, aren't secured? I mean, it's been a couple of dozen years now that we've had the Internet, and we all know the bad guys are out there. How hard is it to SECURE data?? Maybe it's just me, being naive, and it really is impossible to secure data. But I know there are a lot of people in the world smarter than me, that must be working on this.
Actually, China
The reason China is able to compete is because of a handful factors:
* Enslavement/enticement of foreign countries to utilize their natural resources (see: Africa)
* Cheap-as-fuck labor
* Wanton IP theft
* A docile populace
* Totalitarian state able to push all this through to the populace
* UN complicity towards Chinese abuse of standards which everyone else "has" to abide by. (See: pollution/global warming crap)
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
""WtF?""
Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
China has quickly updated their standard tagline, "The U.S. needs to quit interfering with China's internal affairs and servers"
The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains
Two countries go in, one come out.
I'm not all that confident of the outcome, though...
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
No, their point is "It's one thing to get hacked but when it's the local government doing it while we're playing nice, I don't think so".
Speak for yourself. Just because you arbitrarily decided to reset the clock 2009 years ago doesn't mean that the rest of us didn't count history before then. In fact, even non-atheists recognise that time did indeed exist before 1 AD.
Sorry, I was about to make a really rude and sarcastic comment here, but I won't.
Western culture began in the ancient Mediterranean thousands of years ago. You would find most aspects of modern western culture in ancient Greece, but a lot of it was around even before that. The major elements are government by representative democracy, the rule of law and emphasis on scientific legalism (I don't know what else to call it) in the fields of science and philosophy. Also the belief in the right to personal liberty for land owning males remains intact even today. Your claim that western culture is young is patently absurd.
You're trying to make a comparison between the age of the USA and the age of eastern culture. That comparison makes no sense.
This would have been the Chery QQ which GM accused the manufacturer of copying the Chevrolet Spark/Daewoo Matiz.
Check out
http://paultan.org/2006/02/18/chery-qq-crash-test/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daewoo_Matiz
And this surprises who?
And if you are surprised, calmly put down the lenova and step away.
Ward
. Silence! Be thankful thy species is unpalatable! .
I fully acknowledge that that is what appears to have happened. They also went so far as to hack/surveil accounts of dissidents outside China. I'm not here to defend the Chinese government.
However, I am exploring what they *could* say, especially in the absence of official Chinese explanations, so far. For example: they could say they were exploring whether those dissidents had contact with foreign intelligence agencies. (Does this line of argument sound familiar?)
And BTW, thanks for calling my reply "stupid bullshit", it really illustrate just how much you hate it when people attack the arguer and how much you value opposing viewpoints. Just saying.
There's a difference between attacking the arguer alongside the argument and attacking only the arguer. You were doing the latter: the post was an ad hominem.
I gave my reasons criticising your position, and then in addition slung some dung at the class of argument you used. I didn't even mention you.
I only hate it when the arguer is exclusively criticised because it's a fallacy and I'm sick of hearing the same shit from grade school to government. But I haven't made that error here, and even if I had, my hypocrisy wouldn't make my arguing against it invalid. It would just make me annoying.
arrived from the mouth of an independent hacker, perhaps l0pht or another fun group with a genuine interest in determining where the attacks came from and how they worked as opposed to VeriSign just coming around and telling me, id perhaps lend some credence to the notion it was china.
instead this just looks like another megacorp security firm in the face of market recession trying to bang the drum harder and make money off one company in one isolated event that insists its been hacked by china with no independent third party review or proof.
sure, many will cite politicians clamouring over the threat, the imminent and grave threat, that china poses to the US. these are the same politicians that marched us into iraq, and the same politicians that are perfectly happy on both sides to agree that war is necessary and the united states is somehow holy and just in waging it.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Who else is waiting for the obligatory response by Chinese ambassadors?
"We, the Chinese people, do not appreciate your false reports of hacking, nor the false reports of the hackers being identified as Chinese agents. The Chinese government engages is no espionage of any nation, nor coerces anyone into anything against their will. Your comments have hurt the Chinese people's feelings. The internet in China is free. Please stop violating and respect our sovereignty and internal affairs. We demand an apology from the United States of America."
"If the report's findings are correct, it suggests that the government of China has been engaged for months in a massive campaign of industrial espionage against US companies."
Thank you Captain Obvious, isn't this common knowledge.
Awesome!
China has fallen under foreign control several times, most notably with the Manchus and Mongols. You could also argue they were a colony of sorts for Western imperial powers from the 1700s up until the early part of the 20th century.
They certainly have a resilient culture, but their government has gone down in flames many times.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Why does everyone here seem to be spewing out anti-Chinese propaganda? You do realize that the only reason the freedom of speech exists in this country [USA] was to win the support of liberal founding fathers who helped draft the constitution and rally the troops, right? There were serious capitalist interests in America winning their freedom, but they needed to convince the people it was worth fighting for. Don't get me wrong, in many ways because of the wording of this radical constitution, freedoms for people around the world have benefited... but this is almost in direct reverse-correlation to the effects of what the US government does. The people who gained power soon after the revolution was won, pretty much everyone after Jefferson, hasn't given two shits about civil liberties when not on the stump.
And similarly, we need a Chinese history lesson, to learn how the power of people's rebellion, such as the boxers rebellion, shaped the current policies that helped the government reign in the control of their people.
Trust me, if the US gov't didn't think their was any other way, then they'd take away our civil liberties too... err wait, that seems to have happened over the last couple hundred years.
The fact of the matter is, the Chinese government and the American government aren't all that different (apologies to any chinese who may be reading, but yes, your government fucking sucks too). China has a completely different background, but have dealt with issues in a reactionary way that any wretched gov't in their situation would do. I wonder how long the US is going to get a free-pass because they have a bad-ass constitution (that is treated like the bible - good when it's convenient to conform to).
Both gov'ts are FUBARed, and pointing fingers and rehashing tired propaganda only makes matters worse. We need some real solutions, and this requires you to forget about what you think you know about right and wrong (and blow up your nearest starbucks - unoccupied at night of course - in a symbolic gesture against the real powers that fuck up our societies more than we want to admit. yes, the coffee shops).
while I go back to my parents basement to play WoW.
We all know you never left that basement in the first place. :)
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Not to be a party pooper, but you are faulting China for doing something congress tries hard at every opportunity it can to do as well: force government procurement to buy American first. And lets not get started on agricultural subsidies.
The Buy American Act
Sections 10 (a-d) of Title 41 of the United States Code are known as the Buy American Act (BAA). U.S. government exceptions under NAFTA Chapter 10 and the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement allow for such procurement preferences.
The Buy American Act applies to all U.S. federal government agency purchases of goods valued over the micropurchase threshold, but does not apply to services. Under the Act, all goods for public use (articles, materials, or supplies) must be produced in the U.S., and manufactured items must be manufactured in the U.S. from U.S. materials. Many states and municipalities include similar geographic production requirements in their procurements.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
So a government gets caught damaging a foreign companies resources.
Isn't that grounds for war? Or at least some sanctions?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
History books are fabricated by the government!!!
Didn't 9/11 teach you anything?
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
You only counted that the Chinese culture has a lineage of a few thousand years. Have you check on the actual lineage of the government itself? How many nations, even empires, that has been founded and died in the same time frame? Perhaps no one has taught you yet that one sure thing in Chinese history is the fact that history tends to repeats itself because we make same mistakes over and over again. We have not yet began a discussion on all political tensions, rifts, riots, and revolts that has happened through out the ages of time. One thing it really says is that the same regime don't last forever. That's Chinese History for you.
But then, there's the Cultural Revolutions. It was suppose to cure "all ills of old cultures". So did the government/culture of PRC really in existence for thousands of years? You be the judge (after you actually did your homework).
Security officials investigating the problem said that the attackers gained entry to the system first by establishing dummy accounts. They realized that these attackers were Chinese when they discovered all the personal information fields were filled in with "CHING CHANG CHING CHONG CHONG" - and the accounts all had suspicious-sounding names like "Warner Oland", "Sidney Toler", "Roland Winters", "Kristin Kreuk", and "John Bennett" - obviously failed attempts to concoct unsuspicious names...
Bow-ties are cool.
The current Chinese government has only been at it for about 60 years.
The GP shouldn't have questioned the value of their culture if he wanted to limit his thoughts to that timeframe.
Through your numerous reply of the same thing. I can only conclude that you are biased and not listening what other slashdotter is trying to point out here. Your opinion is not constructive for the conversation of the topic. I wish I have the mod points to mod you down to avoid another reader wasting their time on your posts.
From TFA: "Citing sources in the defense contracting and intelligence consulting community, the iDefense report unambiguously declares that the Chinese government was, in fact, behind the effort."
Right, for what possible sinister reason could people in the American "defense contracting and intelligence consulting community" have to paint China as a threat to US national security?
He's talking about how their culture and government are doing in this era.
Better than ever, by all accounts.
Age hasn't got anything to do with it. Neither has his culture got anything to do with the accuracy of his evaluation.
If his culture is tinted with jingoism, making him spew nationalistic prattle, it has a lot to do with it.
I don't really agree with him and I'm interested in hearing opposing viewpoints. But I'm not interested in hearing stupid bullshit that attacks the arguer and ignores the argument. Just saying.
Then you shouldn't be happy that his ignorant bile gets modded up, nor should you be defending it.
And BTW, thanks for calling my reply "stupid bullshit", it really illustrate just how much you hate it when people attack the arguer and how much you value opposing viewpoints. Just saying.
While we are on topic on Chinese spying, are you one of those poster Chinese government owned droids trolling the internet posts for a good fight? Seriously I've seen many of them on many news site's discussion board. You are the first one that are so balatently apparent on your intention here at slashdot.
The vocabulary you uses are not of typical of English speaking person would use. Rather I sense you either type in Chinese and then have the reply translated by a computer (are you using Google's language tool for the translation?), or you have an electronic Chinese/English dictionary rigth in front of you.
We slashdot readers are technology centric people who cares about technology as well as the humanities in general around us. I don't think we really like to parade a particular nation for its virtues (just look at how much fun we have with the American government and businesses). We have good discussions on what is fair, and what is not. We are stongly opinionated, but we tend to respect each other's point. I think you should read the help section of the Slashdot's forum before posting any more and make a fool out of yourself.
they could say they were exploring whether those dissidents had contact with foreign intelligence agencies.
You think human right activists will be CIA's next best friend after all those secrete presions they setup overseas?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Option 1: Pick a low level bureaucrat "persuade" him to write a self-criticism and move on.
Option 2: Denial, denial, denial. (See Tiananmen Square.)
Your claim that western culture is young is patently absurd.
I made no such claim.
Maybe you could stop being an idiot for a sec and see if I was replying to a claim about Pan-Asian culture, or a claim to a single country's culture? Then, perhaps, you could muster up some brain cells to try to see if equivocting claims of one country VS one hemisphere is absurd?
You can't take the sky from me...
Hardly, or do you think Western culture and beliefs were created in 1776?
No, but I think you're not intelligent enough to tell the difference between a hemisphere and a country.
You can't take the sky from me...
While we are on topic on Chinese spying, are you one of those poster Chinese government owned droids trolling the internet posts for a good fight? Seriously I've seen many of them on many news site's discussion board.
Yes, and I'm doing it.... from INSIDE YOUR HOUSE!
The vocabulary you uses are not of typical of English speaking person would use. Rather I sense you either type in Chinese and then have the reply translated by a computer (are you using Google's language tool for the translation?), or you have an electronic Chinese/English dictionary rigth in front of you.
I'm actually torturing white anglo saxon protestant children to force them to translate for me... IN YOUR OWN HOUSE, no less.
We slashdot readers are technology centric people who cares about technology as well as the humanities in general around us. I don't think we really like to parade a particular nation for its virtues (just look at how much fun we have with the American government and businesses). We have good discussions on what is fair, and what is not. We are stongly opinionated, but we tend to respect each other's point. I think you should read the help section of the Slashdot's forum before posting any more and make a fool out of yourself.
I think you should break out a calculator and do some math involving our respective /. IDs while you're making an ass of yourself.
You can't take the sky from me...
Through your numerous reply of the same thing. I can only conclude that you are biased and not listening what other slashdotter is trying to point out here.
By replying to people I have given you the impression that I am not listening... wow, you're trying hard to be the stupidest person to reply in this thread, ain't ya?
You can't take the sky from me...
There's a difference between attacking the arguer alongside the argument and attacking only the arguer. You were doing the latter: the post was an ad hominem.
Quote the bit that you think was a personal attack against the speaker.
Him: "Their culture is t3h suck!"
Me: "Its longevity proves it isn't."
You: "OMG YOU'RE SUCH AN ASS FOR INSULTING HIM, YOU ASS!!!11!!1!"
You can't take the sky from me...
But then, there's the Cultural Revolutions. It was suppose to cure "all ills of old cultures". So did the government/culture of PRC really in existence for thousands of years?
Congratulations for this post, it's the only one to have addressed the possible crack in my reply: He might have been referring to the cultural revolution when he said "government/culture", though I'm fairly certain it was not such an elaborate thought, but merely a nationalistic put down.
All the other replies were attacking some strawmen they named after me ;-\
You can't take the sky from me...
Well, which is it?
Here is what you said:
"When your government/culture will have been at it for a few thousand years, you'll have a point."
The implication is that the Chinese have been at it for thousands of years, while westerners have not. What I'm saying is that either the westerners have been at it for thousands of years (the cultural argument) or the Chinese haven't (the government argument). Either way you look at it, you're wrong.
Well, which is it?
Here is what you said:
"When your government/culture will have been at it for a few thousand years, you'll have a point."
The implication is that the Chinese have been at it for thousands of years, while westerners have not.
Explain to me, slowly, why you have a single country on one side, and an entire multinational hemisphere on the other.
Because I said nothing about comparing the whole of western civilization to one nation. Yet you, and others, jump to that conclusion, and worse, you keep implying that I also compare apples and oranges.
Or, you know, you could keep beating on that strawman... you really seem to enjoy it.
You can't take the sky from me...
China has not had a continuous government for thousands of years, so if you want to say they've been around for thousands of years, you are talking about their culture.
Western culture is not a geographically isolated phenomena the way Chinese culture is, because western countries have been building empires making colonies for centuries, which has spread the culture across the western hemisphere.
Neither are you apparently.
Western culture refers to European culture which has evolved from Roman and Greek culture. It does not refer to the entire Western Hemisphere unless you want to start including Native Americans and Africans in Western culture.
Western culture is not a geographically isolated phenomena the way Chinese culture is
Ah, I get it now, you're so ignorant that you think China's cultural influence is limited to China. That explains a lot.
You can't take the sky from me...
Western culture refers to European culture which has evolved from Roman and Greek culture. It does not refer to the entire Western Hemisphere unless you want to start including Native Americans and Africans in Western culture.
No, I wanted you to be smart enough to compare a country to a country, but you're apparently not capable of that. DIAF.
You can't take the sky from me...
The Chinese are smart. Our year 2010 is the Chinese year 4707. They have an ANCIENT culture.
The rampant cronyism and corruption in our society is a drop in the bucket compared to China. Damn straight they have an ancient culture -- and ancient problems as well. One chinese told me "dictatorship is in the culture".
I would be suspicious of any government (or person) who *demands* that you reflect them back the way they want to be seen. The great glorious perfect nation of China is a lot like Narcissus in the story of Narcissus and Echo.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
I think you need to give the Chinese more credit. As you've said, they have a billion more people than we do
Centrally controlled or planned economies don't allocate resources as efficiently as a free market. The billion extra people in China would be better off with a less authoritarian regime.
what China is up to in Africa
China's investment in Africa (and around the world) is centered on regimes that the US finds morally reprehensible. I am glad the US has isn't propping the Sudanese, Iranians, or Burmese.
China's investment in Africa (and around the world) is centered on regimes that the US finds morally reprehensible. I am glad the US has isn't propping the Sudanese, Iranians, or Burmese.
Because we've done so much better with propping up al Qaeda, the Shah of Iran, and numerous puppet governments in Central America? How about our buddy in Afghanistan and his opium dealing brother?
The government/culture of The People's Republic of China has only been in existence for about 70 years
The Communitist Party of China established in 1921. The People's Republic of China established in 1949. So you should say 60 or 90. And China was at war with Japan 70 years ago.
I'm not sure that China knows what they're messing with. If they keep poking Google's assets, the GoogCloud could very well go SkyNet on their asses.
"Google's Search Algorithm became self-aware at 3:37am on Friday, January 15 2010."
You're not paranoid if they really ARE out to get you...
China has never engaged in colonialism, nor has it ever been larger than it is now.
I find it funny that a China expert in the article is Gill Bates - it somehow fits the overall theme of this discussion. :)
http://codeandlife.com
CmdrTaco didn't understand the original report and made up the title to attract eye balls. The original report says: "The source IPs and drop server of the attack correspond to a single foreign entity consisting either of agents of the Chinese state or proxies thereof," What CmdrTaco and the report writer understand, "attacks" from your own computers, has now long been in history. Modern attacks use zombies as a commonsense. I would rather doubt the administrative ability of those IPs instead of believing their owners are the attackers.
So "researchers" have determined that this was in fact perpetrated by "the Chinese government"? Why is it that one should have confidence in an article that refers to unspecified "researchers" and "sources in the defense contracting and intelligence consulting community"? As far as I can see, the article makes largely unsubstantiated claims, such as:
The source IPs and drop server of the attack correspond to a single foreign entity consisting either of agents of the Chinese state or proxies thereof
Why don't they tell us what that "single, foreign entity" is? Apart from the fact that you can spoof your IP address very easily; something I think we can assume a Chinese agent would take advantage of. In fact, if the IP addresses used are so easily traced back to China, could it not be because somebody wants to point a finger in that direction? Nah, I'm probably just too suspicious.
It is not that I can't believe that an agency in the Chinese state would engage in undercover activity, even if the execution seems a bit amateurish; I just hate it when people insult my intelligence like this.
China has never engaged in colonialism, nor has it ever been larger than it is now.
Listen, troll, you claim that China's culture is limited to China, and that's very easy to prove false. I won't be replying to your retarded comments after this because it's clear you're either honestly stupid or intentionally saying things that are false so you can goad me into feeding you with replies. So DIAF.
You can't take the sky from me...
Countries are just artificial borders, culture goes beyond that. If you want to compare the government country to country then you can only compare The modern China of the past 70 years against the United States of 250 years.
However your original post was comparing both government and culture.
In communist China, search engine indexes YOU!