Professors Banning Laptops In the Lecture Hall

Pickens writes "The Washington Post reports that professors have banned laptops from their classrooms at George Washington University, American University, the College of William and Mary, and the University of Virginia, among many others, compelling students to take notes the way their parents did: on paper. A generation ago, academia embraced the laptop as the most welcome classroom innovation since the ballpoint pen, but during the past decade it has evolved into a powerful distraction as wireless Internet connections tempt students away from note-typing to e-mail, blogs, YouTube videos, sports scores, even online gaming. Even when used as glorified typewriters, laptops can turn students into witless stenographers, typing a lecture verbatim without listening or understanding. 'The breaking point for me was when I asked a student to comment on an issue, and he said, "Wait a minute, I want to open my computer,"' says David Goldfrank, a Georgetown history professor. 'And I told him, "I don't want to know what's in your computer. I want to know what's in your head."' Some students don't agree with the ban. A student wrote in the University of Denver's newspaper: 'The fact that some students misuse technology is no reason to ban it. After all, how many professors ban pens and notebooks after noticing students doodling in the margins?'"

Comments

False analogy.

[samurphy21]

Doodling with pen and paper doesn't absorb the attention to the same degree as playing Facebook games and chatting with friends via IM.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

And remember, no margin, no Fermat's Last Theorem!

Re:False analogy.

[dwarfsoft]

Yeah, he should have gone with a car analogy instead...

Re:False analogy.

[K. S. Kyosuke]

I believe that this would happen in a slightly different fashion today. "I have discovered a truly marvelous proof that all non-trivial zeros of the Riemann zeta function have a real part of 1/2, but the landing zone of my Macbook's hard drive is too narrow to contain the TeX file."

Re:False analogy.

[precariousgray]

Not to mention it's also a creative endeavor of some sort, as opposed to mindless absorption of memes and various related drivel.

Re:False analogy.

[theIsovist]

Also, the doodles may also be related to what is actually being taught and may be of use. I have many a drawing of monkeys attached to strings, in trees being shot by a hunter at X angle below. it's a lesson in motion, partially elastic colisions and pendular motion.

Re:False analogy.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Perhaps more importantly, doodling isn't nearly as distracting for those around you as video/gaming/whatever(and yes, I have seen "whatever" to include "porn").

Frankly, it isn't my problem what you are or aren't learning in class. It's either your money, in which case it is your problem; or your parent's money, in which case they can always scream at you or cut you off. If you are going to be doing substantially distracting things in the same class where I am trying to learn, though, you've just made it my problem.

When you take a primate whose visual system has been shaped by millenia of evolution in an environment where every movement in the corner of your eye is either dinner or about to make you dinner, and put them a few rows back in a class full of screens showing moving images, their attention is going to suffer, whether they like it or not.

Re:False analogy.

[ElectricTurtle]

Your falsification depends on the accuracy of your personal bias. You feel that because when you doodle your attention is less absorbed than when you play Facebook games or use IM, therefore all people must share this experience equally. This is a highly irrational conceit, and does not take into account the different degrees with which different people are able to multitask and/or focus.

Re:False analogy.

[dkf]

Doodling with pen and paper doesn't absorb the attention to the same degree as playing Facebook games and chatting with friends via IM.

Making paper planes out of the notes and throwing them at the lecturer does absorb the attention a lot. But at least it made Analytical Chemistry fun!

Re:False analogy.

[vvaduva]

But I want to plant my fields, feed my chickens and kill a few mobsters really really bad!!

Re:False analogy.

[mcgrew]

Hell, when I was in college you could SMOKE in class, and they never banned slide rules. I never took notes myself; I can't scribble as fast as the professor can talk, can't read my own scribbling later, and taking notes took my attention away from what the teacher was saying.

If there were diagrams on the blackboard, I'd scribble those down after class, unless they were replicated in the textbook, and if the teacher said "write this down" then I'd write it down.

The instructor's role is to better explain what's in the textbook, and discuss things that weren't in the book. If I was in school today I might use a notebook as a speech recorder (lots of students then used tape), but a notebook ban wouldn't bother me, I can record on my phone as easily as on a notebook.

Do professors still party with their students at after school functions? In a lot of ways you guys have it better than I did, but in a lot of other was we had it better. College was some of the best times of my life. Especially the Mississippi River Festival. Maybe I'll journal about that, it was awesome.

Re:False analogy.

[neutralino]

Doodling helps you think better

Re:False analogy.

[Xest]

Thank you for your in depth explanation and plethora of citations you have provided to back up your claim. Your ability to demonstrate your assertion as fact has completely and utterly opened my mind, I feel enlightened by the evidence presented demonstrating the truthfulness of your point.

Or in other words, [citation needed]. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I'm a little skeptical that doodling is any less a distraction than pratting around on a laptop is. You need to do a little more work to demonstrate that what you said is anything more than just your personal opinion.

I'm pretty sure different people think different anyway, some are fine with multi-tasking, others not so, I'd imagine those crap at multi-tasking will struggle with taking notes at the same time as listening regardless of what method they use, whilst those great at it, will likely be able to play an FPS or whatever and still take in what the professor is saying.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is so much Facebook and chat going on in my lectures. I really hate sitting behind someone that's doing it.

Re:False analogy.

[JustOK]

Apple would only allow proprietary Fermats in the iMargin.

Re:False analogy.

[thestuckmud]

More importantly, doodling may actually improve focus.

Re:False analogy.

[frenchbedroom]

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter (provided it includes drawings of monkeys and hunters, of course)

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Professors should spend more time making their material compelling and less time blaming technology for their own shortcomings.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah: "I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, but Twitter 140 chars lolol"

Re:False analogy.

[qmetaball]

Well, since this is an educational institution, wouldn't it be the eMargin?

Re:False analogy.

[somersault]

I also don't get why they say this:

Even when used as glorified typewriters, laptops can turn students into witless stenographers, typing a lecture verbatim without listening or understanding.

I had the same problem with pen and paper, I was too busy trying to write down what was being said rather than paying attention. With a computer at least I can write quite fast, so I could spend more time listening to the words and less frantically trying to write quickly but legibly. I stopped taking notes after my first year of University, when I didn't even use any of my notes to revise. I revised using lecture notes, and very occasionally I'd use a textbook.

Re:False analogy.

[somersault]

Clarification - when I said "revised using lecture notes" there I meant the lecture slides that were available online, not my own notes.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with that being a false analogy. I could say someone is drawing the final art for some computer game and it would still be less distracting to both the target and the rest of the class. I was lucky to have been part of a uni that not only allowed laptops in classrooms but all students has to own a laptop as part of their tuition requirements. (100% of students had laptops.) There was one class that I had and some dolt in every session of the class sat in the front and played Mike Tyson's punch-out on an emulator. It was very distracting. I tried to sit somewhere else so as to not notice the screen. He was lucky that the professor was too stupid to notice or perhaps too smart. I'll never know. But I do know that he wasn't learning anything and the students sitting next to him and behind him had difficulty focusing on class. I would have ratted him out, but the problem was most professors were on the extreme ban like this article covers. All or nothing. And I did like to take my notes on my computer as I can type way faster than I can write with a pen. And my fingers don't cramp up on the keyboard like they do with a ballpoint. So rather than removing the distraction and loose my ability to take notes, I had to ignore it.

Re:False analogy.

[Ukab the Great]

I'm guessing that when you were in college getting a somewhat less menial job that pays somewhat more than minimum wage didn't depend on having a college degree and the folks who did go to college were actually interested in learning (I don't know this for sure. I wasn't around then).

I think a lot of people today go to class just so they can attain that job-hunting license that offers the prospect of not flipping burgers and eating ramen noodles for 30 years.

Re:False analogy.

[Vanderhoth]

and does not take into account the different degrees with which different people are able to multitask and/or focus.

I think I heard that same argument in a discussion about people being able to drive and text at the same time. Sure they may get away with it indefinitely, but they're still likely to be in or cause a crash.

Same thing here. you might get away with playing Facebook games indefinitely, but you're more likely to or cause someone else to miss an import point

Back in my university days, not so long ago, this was a huge issue for me; I never brought my laptop to class. I found it very distracting when I was sitting behind someone playing WoW and had a very hard time focusing on what was going on. So I started getting to classes earlier so I could sit in the front row. It made seeing the overhead screens harder, but I was able to pay better attention. I feel vindicated because the people who thought they could multitask were always coming to me for notes and/or help, which I decided when and to whom I gave it to.

Score: Computer Science Degree for me, MacDonald's for multitaskers

Re:False analogy.

[MrCrassic]

Remember, these are the same professors who don't understand that boredom is incredibly more powerful than it appears, and that uninspired students will find other ways to zone out of boring lectures.

Re:False analogy.

[chill]

it's a lesson in motion, partially elastic colisions and pendular motion.

And you chose monkeys over jiggling boobies for this? Your class obviously needs a few more coeds.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps more importantly, doodling isn't nearly as distracting for those around you as video/gaming/whatever(and yes, I have seen "whatever" to include "porn").

I've been caught by a prof doodling a picture of a naked woman. Porn in the classroom isn't exclusive to notebooks, although the amount you can access doodling is somewhat limited in comparison.

Re:False analogy.

[GTarrant]

When I taught electrical engineering at the college level, I pointed out to students that, given the cost of tuition, and the class being X units (depending on the class) it meant that each lecture was essentially costing them (or somebody), $Y. And that given it was their $Y to spend, I didn't really care how they spent it, but that as long as they were registered for the class, it was a sunk cost, so I recommended they pay attention or try to get their money's worth the best they could.

But, if they felt it was more worthwhile spending that $Y and skipping the class, I told them that was fine - but don't ask me for a review of the lecture afterwards. I flat-out told them if they were out late the night before and fell asleep in the class, fine (as long as they didn't snore). It was their money they were spending (or someone was spending on them) and they could get value from it, or waste it, as they saw fit.

However, I made it quite clear that I wouldn't allow them the liberty to interfere with other student's spending of that $Y. So I was quite stern with students whose cell phones rang, and while laptops for taking notes were fine (and I didn't care about IM either, hell, I would give students a special IM account I setup to ask questions on homework as due dates crept up), movies, games, things that could easily attract eyes (because the eye is naturally drawn to motion, and bright colors can also be a distraction, it's the way we're wired) were out. Loud discussions were not acceptable - not because of me (after all, I'm paid for the students registered regardless of how many of them show up), but because other students are spending their $Y and they deserve the opportunity to use it to actually see and hear the class they're paying for. It was rarely an issue.

If you treat people like adults, most respond in kind. Furthermore, putting it in the perspective of the money being spent by each student made some students realize why I cared about distractions - it didn't distract me, nor did it affect the money I got, nor the time I spent, but it did affect other students who had spent time and money to be there.

Re:False analogy.

[hansamurai]

I just graduated from college in 2006, and even though I never brought a laptop to class, I was still reading the newspaper in pit lectures and doing sudoku and kakuro in small lectures, or writing non-fiction.

Re:False analogy.

[silentquasar]

Furthermore, I believe that doodling can sometimes help someone listen better who is a kinesthetic learner. It's somewhat like underlining or highlighting parts of a text. It might help you to find important parts more quickly when re-reading, but also the action of underlining tickles that kinesthetic part of your brain.

Doodling may not provide much in the way of a useful reference for later, but might be better than just sitting there. I'm no expert, but for certain learning styles, it might even be better than stenographer-style note taking, since the brain isn't trying to get every last word copied down.

n.b.: I say I "believe" this because it's sort of an amalgam of ideas I've picked up from various books at various times, as well as my experiences as a (primarily) kinesthetic learner.

Re:False analogy.

[ebillcoyne]

Please cite the research that demonstrates the differences in the degrees of absorption. Thank you.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sit up front.

Re:False analogy.

[theIsovist]

I went to georgia tech. All classes needed more coeds

Re:False analogy.

[kainewynd2]

Doodling may, but thinking about boobs certainly does not.

Re:False analogy.

[BobMcD]

Then you're doing both wrong, it seems.

The idea is to paraphrase what was said most of the time, and quote directly when instructed to do so. Paraphrasing means you have to move that data out of 'RAM' and into your 'processor' for compression. Ergo, comprehension (hopefully).

Writing being slower, it tends towards paraphrasing better, as would doodling if it meant you had to 'sprint' to catch up.

The problem with electronic distractions is that your RAM and processor are occupying their wetware counterparts and you've stopped paraphrasing or even listening fully at all.

Re:False analogy.

[goombah99]

Car? All students should be forced to take the bus so they can read and get smarter.

Re:False analogy.

[spxero]

I echo your sentiment. My wife has recently gone back to school (she already has a 4 year degree in "business") to pursue a different career path. She continually comes home from class lamenting at the youth in her class that just don't get it. Not understanding the material is one thing, but not even trying to understand the material and then coming into class at the end of the semester asking for extra credit options is common in her new degree path of Early Childhood Development. In her opinion, they would be better off going and getting a job than wasting everybody's time since they are obviously not there to learn.

When the person who does the assignments, understands the material, and does pretty good on the tests pulls a 105+% in the class, something is wrong.

Re:False analogy.

[Hurricane78]

Lol. A Mac user wouldn’t even know what a Riemann zeta function is, if you beat it into him 24 hours a day for 3 years straight.

Try “liberal arts major”.

Re:False analogy.

[Hurricane78]

And: Are they flying, those monkey?

Re:False analogy.

[idji]

actually doodling is giving the left brain something to do so that the right brain can focus on what is being said

Re:False analogy.

[CaspianXI]

That study only compared students who doodle to students who daydream in class. They failed to consider that some students actually pay attention and take notes in class -- I think we'd agree that students who pay attention tend to focus better.

Re:False analogy.

[ElectricTurtle]

You're comparing laptop use in class to texting while driving? Really? Either way, it does not negate the ethical foundation. You make a mistake and you pay for it. In class that means you fail, in a car that means damage, injury or death, and criminal liability. You are correct that texting is viable to be banned because the outcome of a failure affects others non-voluntarily. When somebody texts while driving and crashes, the person they crash into can't say 'no, don't crash into me' and have that crash not happen.

This is where your analogy fails when you try to say "you might get away with playing Facebook games indefinitely, but you're more likely to or cause someone else to miss an import point". That other person using Facebook or whatever does so voluntarily. Both people are voluntary actors, both have the same decision to make, and if one person's efficacy is diminished more than the other, that does not transfer responsibility/liability to the the first voluntary actor.

Your anecdote only demonstrates your own sensitivity. You also were able to adapt rather than force somebody to accommodate your sensitivity at the cost of their freedom and potential efficacy (some are improved, others are reduced, depending on their character and how they use the tool, not the amoral tool itself).

Your cute pithy conclusion is fraught with personal bias. You judge that because your experience and methodology allowed you to succeed, no other competing methodology is able to succeed. Because some others failed using a different methodology, you assume all others must necessarily fail based on your anecdotal experience. You need to be more wary of such conceited reasoning.

Re:False analogy.

[NervousWreck]

I call bull on the stereotype. Last time I "consulted" (quotes because he was both friend of a relative and relative of a friend so it was kinda informal) for a physicist it was to set up some of his OS 9 programs to work properly in OSX's classic mode.

Re:False analogy.

[cgenman]

I'm rather shocked to be back in Grad School, and to see that everyone is here (without fail) to change careers. The people in my curriculum have zero experience and zero prior study in the field, they just didn't like the job their undergraduate degree got them. The first year of graduate school feels like a condensed version of a real undergraduate degree, for those people who probably should have read a book on this stuff before deciding to jump on the hot career.

I was expecting to find people who loved the subject. Instead, I find people unified in their hatred of whatever else they're doing.

Re:False analogy.

[houghi]

And it is a very bad analogy as doodleing even increases the attention and is part of the concentration.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

The instructor's role is to better explain what's in the textbook, and discuss things that weren't in the book. If I was in school today I might use a notebook as a speech recorder (lots of students then used tape), but a notebook ban wouldn't bother me, I can record on my phone as easily as on a notebook.

I call BS on that.

The professor is there to teach you. The books, notes and other aids are to help you if you failed to understand it when he taught it. If you are there to learn from the book then why waste the money on classes.

Re:False analogy.

[Splab]

In fact often the exact opposite - one of my friends back when we where studying told me that he remembers lectures better when doodling (he got top marks in his masters degree), back then I started doodling and found that I have the same experience, doodling "removes" the bored part of me and helps me focus on whats going on.

These days I do the same during meetings and I find that I cope better with the meeting and often remember better what went on.

Re:False analogy.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

There's a completely viable strategy.

For 5% of the class...

Re:False analogy.

[BrokenHalo]

Try "liberal arts major".

Err, no. I guess I would have to say I'm now mostly a Mac user (probably 60% of the time, the remainder Linux), and I did a double degree in molecular biology and mathematics.

Re:False analogy.

[BrokenHalo]

Also, the doodles may also be related to what is actually being taught and may be of use.

The doodles can be entirely irrelevant but still useful. I remember scoring a few bonus marks in exams by way of having remembered doodles on my notes as visual cues.

Re:False analogy.

[cayenne8]

"Car? All students should be forced to take the bus so they can read and get smarter."

But its so much harder to get laid when all you have is a 'bus'.

:)

Re:False analogy.

[ElectricTurtle]

I wish there were more people like you in the world. Your grasp of interpersonal ethics is, in my estimation, faultless.

Re:False analogy.

[cayenne8]

"...as opposed to mindless absorption of memes and various related drivel."

Yeah, but unfortunately, THAT is exactly what it takes for the most part, to pass the tests, get the grades and graduate so you can get out in the real world and make some money.

Which, after all....is the whole purpose of this exercise in the first place, eh? (Besides being you last 4x years to act like a kid, party and have fun)

Re:False analogy.

[Vanderhoth]

Sorry I struck a nerve.

I didn't say Laptops should be ban. Some people use them in class to take notes and/or record video and audio for later reference. The people that sit around playing games or watching YouTube, then later need to seek out help because they weren't paying attention can be a problem and an annoyance.

Both people are voluntary actors, both have the same decision to make, and if one person's efficacy is diminished more than the other, that does not transfer responsibility/liability to the the first voluntary actor.

I didn't volunteer to look at someones laptop screen. When there is flickering light and movement I find it hard to focus on what I should be.

I, like a lot of others, paid good money to attend classes and learn, and we had a right to learn undistracted. Unfortunately, this falls into a gray area of rights because the people being the distraction also had a right to be in class too.

I knew several people who had the same issue as me. People tried complaining about the distractions to the professors, but all the prof. could do was ask them to leave or stop what they were doing, which worked for all of 10 minutes. Just before exams in the first year we had a procedure put in place where people with laptops could not sit in the first four rows, which understandably upset the people legitimately using them for note taking, but being such a large distraction there wasn't much else we could do.

I also found that after the first year the problem dropped off significantly. I believe most of the people not paying attention didn't make it to second year or, in at least one case, wised up.

Re:False analogy.

[kainewynd2]

This is a highly irrational conceit, and does not take into account the different degrees with which different people are able to multitask and/or focus.

Or apparently how awesome you are. :D

NOTE: This post (mine) is total flamebait... any suggestions to the contrary would just be incorrect... :p

Re:False analogy.

[dcollins]

"It's either your money, in which case it is your problem; or your parent's money, in which case they can always scream at you or cut you off."

Or: I've been told that the majority of my students are fully paid through financial aid. (i.e., Loans that come due at some arbitrarily far point in the future.) Changes the dynamic a lot.

Re:False analogy.

[BrokenHalo]

In most science degree courses, you can pretty much guarantee that the student with the laptop open is the student who isn't paying attention to the lecturer. The old pen/pencil and paper technique is much faster and more efficient for rapid note-taking where any kind of symbols or diagrammatic content are prevalent.

Most of my fellow students were well aware of this, but occasionally there would be some dick trying to show off. My profs were on the whole fairly laid-back about this, occasionally letting slip the odd choice remark about Facebook, or pausing to say "you got all that?". After all, it wasn't their problem if the student failed.

Re:False analogy.

[BrokenHalo]

Making paper planes out of the notes and throwing them at the lecturer does absorb the attention a lot. But at least it made Analytical Chemistry fun!

But Analytical Chemistry is fun. We didn't spend much time in lectures, though: our course was mostly done in the lab, which is what it's all about...

Re:False analogy.

[ultranova]

But its so much harder to get laid when all you have is a 'bus'.

Since you aren't driving, let the beer flow and throw an orgy. Now that would give the students some incentive to show up :).

Re:False analogy.

[rtb61]

The current school generation does have a harder time maintaining focus upon a single subject. I have noticed that notebooks brought into lectures are not always used for taking notes and more often than note are used for, playing games, social networking, working on assignments for other subjects and, doing tutes (about 1 in ten are logged into the school network and have one window open on the lecture presentation notes, reference material mentioned and another window for notes) . The biggest note takers are the exercise book crowd, with an exercise book per subject.

They on the whole do represent a distraction as they often chat amongst themselves whilst playing with their notebooks, although they generally skulk around the back of the lecture theatre moderating the distraction generated. Most Lectures seem unable to establish and maintain control over the lecture environment and lack the willingness to remove disruptive elements. An alternate was to record all lectures and make the available to view so that students could 'er' fail in their own time (the trend) and, be less disruptive.

The big fail has been in changing the curriculum to make it digitally interactive, so material could be worked through in simulation, in line with the lecture, enabling the incorporation of more in depth references during the lectures and combing digital indirect tutoring during the lecture (question could be put through to lecture assistants, lecture chat in effect, without disturbing the class), also full motion digital material could be delivered and viewed on the notebook whilst notes are discussed at the lectern. It could take quite a few more years, possible decades, for teaching methods to catch up (old habits and techniques are being repeated much like qwerty versus alphabetic keyboards, regardless of how nonsensical it is).

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Provided the sound is turned off and the keyboards aren't too clacky, there actually is a solution for not distracting others with your screen content. 3M (and perhaps others) sell these things called screen privacy filters. Why not make having one of those attached as a prerequisite for allowing any laptops into the lecture room?

I think if professors were really worried about students only being a stenographer (which is actually easy enough to do even when writing, especially when the material is presented too fast), they would pause the lecture at key moments and do impromptu quizzing of a random selection of students or a short Q&A before moving to the next section. Doing that would definitely get students to pay attention. (I think the only reason this isn't done is because the people running institutions are more concerned with how long classes take and getting people through a course in a given time period, rather than how well they learn the material they're supposed to know once they recieve their diploma. Not to mention that there are some profs also teach only on the clock, and to them wrapping up a lesson is more important than how well students are doing.)

Re:False analogy.

[dcollins]

"I pointed out to students that, given the cost of tuition, and the class being X units (depending on the class) it meant that each lecture was essentially costing them (or somebody), $Y. And that given it was their $Y to spend, I didn't really care how they spent it, but that as long as they were registered for the class, it was a sunk cost, so I recommended they pay attention..."

This is an enormously common line of thinking, but I've discovered it to be fundamentally not true (at least where I teach). I've been told that the majority of my students, for example, are on full financial aid (including health benefits & pocket money). So there's some loan they need to pay off arbitrarily far in the future, I guess (and it's safe to say that many can't rationally balance that abstract fact). And in fact they're pocketing cash on top of it, so in some sense mere attendance in my class is their current job. Changes the dynamic a lot.

All the time when I'm telling stories my friends say, "But they're paying for it!", and I sigh and launch into my "No, they're actually not..." routine.

Re:False analogy.

[MachDelta]

I don't think I could ever doodle in class and still pay attention. My profs always seem to be scribbling something on the whiteboard to illustrate whatever they're talking about, and if they're not doing that i'm busy taking notes from their slides.

Re:False analogy.

[kainewynd2]

Sorry I struck a nerve.

Don't worry about ElectricTurtle. He's all over this thread spewing this detritus on anyone who disagrees with him.

If he is true to form, I'm sure there will be another mocking post explaining how you're obviously slow and he and others like him are Super-Fun-Time-Awesome. I think he's used the following line three times already...

Your anecdote only demonstrates your own sensitivity.

I'm kind of having fun just following along now... :p

Re:False analogy.

[BrokenHalo]

The professor is there to teach you. The books, notes and other aids are to help you if you failed to understand it when he taught it.

No, the professor is there to help you learn. So are the books, notes and other aids. The professor is not there to ladle knowledge down your throat like chicken soup, he is there to spark your awareness of the content, get you engaging your brain and making connections.

Re:False analogy.

[ElectricTurtle]

I also found that after the first year the problem dropped off significantly. I believe most of the people not paying attention didn't make it to second year or, in at least one case, wised up.

This is the key. Irresponsible adults punish themselves when the effects of their actions come home to roost, and then they either fix themselves or fail out. There is no need to impact others who for whatever reason specific to them are benefited.

You do, as you say, have a reasonable right not to be distracted. It is subjective what is an unreasonable distraction as each person's experience varies. I think we ultimately agree these decisions must be made on a case by case basis instead of being sledgehammered by bans.

Re:False analogy.

[Spectre]

I do believe that is the first time this year I've heard the term "sunk cost" used appropriately.

Congratulations!

Re:False analogy.

[BrokenHalo]

Professors should spend more time making their material compelling and less time blaming technology for their own shortcomings.

Some students should stop whining about their professors and blaming them for their own shortcomings.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you treat people like adults, most respond in kind."

I think you just hit it right on the head right there. I think the problem often is that we do not treat students like adults, and many of them, in turn, behave like children. Post secondary students are adults, should be treated as adults, and be expected to behave as adults.

Re:False analogy.

[codeonezero]

Not to mention that there are studies supporting that doodling can actually help you focus and concentrate. I don't see any equivalent means in a laptop.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/27/doodling-doodles-boring-meetings-concentration

Re:False analogy.

[MoriT]

Unfortunately, they can't get a job. The unemployment rate in America for 20-24-year-olds is 17.7%, and that doesn't include those who have given up (which appears to have been significant). Of course, they probably won't be able to get a job with the college degree, but at least they can live off loans for the moment and hope that eventually this will pay off, as opposed to sitting unemployed and watching their expected life-time earnings decline before their eyes.

Re:False analogy.

[kainewynd2]

No, the professor is there to help you learn.

Mod this guy up. This is the biggest difference between High School and college and most students never get this.

I've had long conversations with professors in various fields and they all agreed on that statement. Some of them have actually left their respective universities because of this ridiculous shift toward undergraduate simply becoming extended high school.

Re:False analogy.

[DJRumpy]

Mac users tend to be better educated, and less gullible than their Windows counterparts: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-943519.html

Re:False analogy.

[Vanderhoth]

I think we ultimately agree these decisions must be made on a case by case basis instead of being sledgehammered by bans.

Yes, I can agree with that. I do ultimately feel that the powers that be should not interfere with the masses by imposing legislation on them to "make them behave". We are after all adults and we suffer are own consequences for not acting as such.

I don't really care what others are doing, but when what they're doing impacts my ability to preform I start to care. So it's fine and dandy to say, the only people they're hurting is themselves, but the fact of the matter is they distract and overall indirectly damage others.

For this same reason I don't think kids should be FORCED by law to attend high school. If they don't want to be there then all they're doing is impeding the ones that are there to learn. There are enough Tim Hortons, McDonalds, Subways and other low skill jobs for people who didn't want an education to work at while leaving others to learn in peace.

Re:False analogy.

[J Story]

It seems to me that instructors could improve the way they deliver their lectures. Why not provide prepackaged lecture notes in advance of the class, so that students can review in advance and be ready to participate in a class discussion?

The question of laptops in class is a red herring. More likely is that poor teachers with ego issues don't like to be reminded that their lectures are boring.

I had the same problem with pen and paper, I was too busy trying to write down what was being said rather than paying attention. With a computer at least I can write quite fast, so I could spend more time listening to the words and less frantically trying to write quickly but legibly. I stopped taking notes after my first year of University, when I didn't even use any of my notes to revise. I revised using lecture notes, and very occasionally I'd use a textbook.

Re:False analogy.

[Jetrel]

In her opinion, they would be better off going and getting a job than wasting everybody's time since they are obviously not there to learn.

Thats what happens when you have a larger middle class. More people can go to secondary schools than should.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've done all that. I've explained all that. I try to treat them like adults and give them the flexibility to learn in the way that they wish. Yet there is still the 1 out of 100 students that doesn't understand they are like the idiot chatting on their cell phone in the middle of a theater full of other people who paid for their seat and want to watch the movie. It's almost the classroom equivalent of the Greater Internet ****wad Theory: get a big enough classroom and there's always one inconsiderate idiot in it. Give them a laptop and the statistics are far, far worse.

Re:False analogy.

[supercrisp]

I was discussing the problems of being tired, distracted etc. with some students this semester when one of them volunteered that she'd done the math, and each class session cost her about $70. That made some eyes wide. I didn't, however, notice much of an impact on class sessions after that day.....

Re:False analogy.

[supercrisp]

I use my cellphone to snap pix of the whiteboard or chalkboard after class so that students don't have to remember lists and diagrams. I also try to get classes (on some days, when it's appropriate) to help generate those lists and diagrams. So I'd much rather the attention be on creating and thinking rather than the note-taking. I try to do as much of that as I can for them, but of course that means some folks just zone out, thinking that my measly "screengrabs" will somehow take the place of applying brain to problem.

Re:False analogy.

[tehcyder]

Remember, these are the same professors who don't understand that boredom is incredibly more powerful than it appears, and that uninspired students will find other ways to zone out of boring lectures.

No-one cares if "uninspired" students aren't interested in the lectures (although why they bother turning up in the first place is a bit of a mystery - do you get marks just for attending lectures in the US or something?).

It's when they interfere with the people who are interested that they become a problem.

Re:False analogy.

[MrCrassic]

Some lecturers/professors go the extra mile to make attendance mandatory for all students. For instance, one of my recitation teachers this semester mandates attendance by distributing an in-class quiz that cannot be made up. I don't really mind as I think these quizzes help improve grades, but it wouldn't be so bad if her lecture style wasn't completely mind-numbing (which is mostly one-way. disengaging and can be downright condescending at times, though I don't blame her reasons for being like that).

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

"8.2 percent of Americans who surf the Web at home do so using a Mac...Nearly all the rest of those who go online--89.4 percent--do so using a Windows-based PC."

"Nielsen/NetRatings said that 70.2 percent of Mac users online have a college degree, compared with 54.2 percent of all Web surfers."

Out of 100 people, 54 of them have college degrees. And of that 54, 3 are Mac users (70.2% of 8.2% of 54.2%). 51 college graduates use PCs (Windows or UNIX-variant) vs. 3 Mac users.

Re:False analogy.

[Degro]

Those people have also forced the schools to dumb everything down too I think. I also recently returned to school and am able to get As in most of my classes with barely any effort. Every class is full of grade hand-outs to prop up all those uninterested people.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be more accurate to word it this way if it helps you to understand.

The total number of users on the web is irrelevant. The same numbers were sampled from each group. For example, out of all of the Mac users polled, 70% of Mac users had college degrees. Out of PC/Other uses polled, 54% had degrees. Obviously they didn't go out and question every one of the millions of Mac users, just as they didn't do the same for the generic 'other' buck of users. They take a sample group (say 100 just for grins), and build their averages from that pool. They then take another 100 users from the 'other/PC' bucket, and ask the same questions.

Aren't averages fun?

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

That has more to do with the subject (education) and its students than it does all young students.

Re:False analogy.

[Ed Peepers]

What program are you in? My classmates in organizational behavior are passionate about the field and many have prior experience. Like anything else I'm sure it all depends.

Re:False analogy.

[Almost-Retired]

Which, after all....is the whole purpose of this exercise in the first place, eh? (Besides being you last 4x years to act like a kid, party and have fun)

With an attitude like that, I can't say as I blame the prof. You are paying that prof to teach you , not your computers hard drive. That way, you will have that knowledge at your beck and call, anytime, anywhere, and not subject to the vagaries of a failing hard drive you likely didn't even have to sweat to earn the money to buy, cuz daddy has a fat wallet.

People like you are throwing away the best part of your lives as far as the ability to learn quickly and well are concerned. The time to party reasonably is when _you_ have enough income to pay for the party. And if you don't learn well, then obviously you are not going to be able to afford much of a party.

You'll have to excuse me if you think school time is only another excuse to party, then I have relatively little sympathy if you wind up 20 years hence driving a taxi, or even cleaning the local dairies milking barn. School time is learning time, party time is when you are paid well enough to afford to party on your own nickle. Its called personal responsibility, but I expect that may be a new concept to some.

Its also something I only got 9 years of, but I have never stopped learning, even at 75. But I don't recommend that you become your own teacher, I can testify that the less traveled road is also poorly maintained. The one advantage I have is a tested above average IQ, and the schooling I did get in the early 40's, taught me how to read and comprehend what I was reading even if I had never seen that word before and because I understood, I, 70 years later still enjoy the act of reading.

--
Cheers, Gene

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

"More likely is that poor teachers with ego issues don't like to be reminded that their lectures are boring." I teach undergrad classes in sw eng. I used to ignore the 1-2 students that sat in the back doing whatever on their laptops. However this semester it to the point that 30% of the students are browsing or whatever. This week I told them to put their laptops away. I told them that if my lectures are that boring, then make suggestions on how to improve them. But lets be honest, the instructors roll is to instruct, and unless one is attending Clown School, some of the materials are going to be a bit dry.

Re:False analogy.

[PachmanP]

I'm pretty sure different people think different anyway, some are fine with multi-tasking, others not so, I'd imagine those crap at multi-tasking will struggle with taking notes at the same time as listening regardless of what method they use, whilst those great at it, will likely be able to play an FPS or whatever and still take in what the professor is saying.

People are pretty generally crap at multitasking. (I think there was an article not to long ago on it here.) There are people who like to tell themselves they can multitask and people who realize they need to focus.

Re:False analogy.

[cayenne8]

"You'll have to excuse me if you think school time is only another excuse to party, then I have relatively little sympathy if you wind up 20 years hence driving a taxi, or even cleaning the local dairies milking barn. School time is learning time, party time is when you are paid well enough to afford to party on your own nickle. Its called personal responsibility, but I expect that may be a new concept to some."

Err..I think you missed part of my post. The part I was alluding to was that regurgitating what the profs throw at you, to pass the tests and get out with good grades so you CAN get a good paying job..is the main purpose of college. The partying things was what I said was mostly the #2 important thing during those years (getting laid too, but I count that mostly in as partying too).

I've been out of college for many years..did some stints in grad school, just missed out on med school, but have had successful careers over the years, including my own consulting company, contracting in the computer industry...etc.

I do think that for most people, college time IS mostly just a way station along life, where you get attain some goals...learn how to get along and work with others, learn how to prioritize....and basically yes, get some partying out of your system while still a kid. The next step usually is the real world with a real job. Learn in college from the coursework? I think that is actually a rare thing. I hardly know anyone that actually works in a field corresponding to their college degree. Hell, my degree was in Biochemistry, and I've not split DNA in decades...

Re:False analogy.

[Chris Johnson]

I cannot mod your funny higher than 5, but I love you, dear Anonymous Coward :)

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need a degree to avoid Ramen, you just have to work hard and be clever.

The idea that you HAVE to have a degree to get a decent job or have a decent life is what destroys colleges.

Re:False analogy.

[FoolishOwl]

There's the saying, good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment. Good parenting and good educating take as premises that it's possible to establish good judgment without the young person experiencing disastrous consequences from bad judgment. You're not supposed to let toddlers play with hot coffee, and you can bar laptops from a classroom when they interfere with learning.

(I don't own a laptop, which is a minor disadvantage for some of the hands-on labs in some of my networking classes. That's a bit of a special case, though.)

Re:False analogy.

[Pentium100]

If I was in school today I might use a notebook as a speech recorder (lots of students then used tape), but a notebook ban wouldn't bother me, I can record on my phone as easily as on a notebook.

I bought a portable reel to reel tape recorder for this purpose. It runs on its battery longer than my laptop (laptop; ~3h when new, 30min now; tape recorder: ~10h), I can use it without taking it out of my bag and the tapes are cheaper (per minute) than microcassette and hole 3-6 hours per side, meaning that i do not have to flip the tape in the middle of the lecture (what would be if I used a C-90 cassette).

On my paper notebook I write the start of the lecture (lecture, date, tape no., track no., tape counter) and then write the topics (what the lecturer was talking about).

All in all, this is much better than trying to write what the lecturer says because then i either write every second or every third word or write everything but cannot decipher it afterward.

Re:False analogy.

[Almost-Retired]

And I got interested in things electronic early on, & had quite a few jobs too, but the die was cast when I went to work at the Zenith wholesaler, fixing the tv's the dealers couldn't, when I was but 16. I went on from there in tv servicing, picking up a wife with 2 kids and made 3 more along the way with her before she passed at an early age from a stroke. I was by then doing broadcast engineering, and that paid fairly well, and my reputation for both my difficult personality, and my technical expertise is fairly well known. Retired at nearly 68 in 2002 after being the CE at a medium market station for 18 years, my phone still rings when something needs the old mans attention yet. Because my self taught education is somewhat eclectic, and my interests aren't limited to electronics, I now have time to carve a little wood into furniture, with some of that carving being done on a cnc milling machine I built. Hunting, fishing etc also figure into the picture, and its still a race to see if I get to have the time to do all that I have wanted to do before I feel its time to just fall over & be done with it. Now 20 years into my 3rd marriage, we'll probably wind up changing each other diapers eventually if my diabetic heart doesn't stop first, but that is the commitment one makes. What can I say, yes, I've made some mistakes, but overall, its been a hell of a ride so far.

Like one fellow I know who always reply's, when asked how he is, 'above ground and not in jail', both huge plus's in my personal dictionary. Then I always add that I woke up this morning, whats not to like about that? ;)

--
Cheers, Gene

Re:False analogy.

[Overzeetop]

I was a professional (and a PE) before I hit grad school full on. The students who came straight from undergrad took the classes like undergrads. I agree with your assessment, and I took the fee to heart. I'm paying the professor to help me learn a subject. First, I expect to get a full lecture, and the lecture to be useful. Second, I expect to get help when I'm stuck. I also felt it was part of the contract that I try my hardest to learn the subject.

I got a great deal out of my MS degree. I used it to switch careers, but I learned more about some of my undergrad work in grad school than I ever imagined.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would typically agree with you, but there are some fairly common situations where I disagree- most prominently that comes to mind is discussion sections of classes, where the whole classes understanding of a subject is enhanced by each individuals contribution. Even in typical lectures, it is common for the lecturer to call on students and ask them questions, to keep the students engaged and also to gauge how well they are picking up the material. If the tuning out due to laptops becomes excessive, I can understand why the professor would become frustrated.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

50/50
38/62
satisfies the 58% more likely than the overall online population to build their own Web page.
Anyone want to do a Chi-squared test on it?

Re:False analogy.

[fahrbot-bot]

It's when they interfere with the people who are interested that they become a problem.

Agreed. I took a semantics class (English language) in my fourth year because I thought it would be interesting to study word origins and evolution, but discovered that most of the other (usually younger) "students" were there because they wanted an easy grade and didn't seem to really care about the subject. As a result, I ended up asking my questions one-on-one with the instructor after class to avoid obnoxious looks and attitudes of the other students dare I ask something during class.

Re:False analogy.

[mcgrew]

I'm guessing that when you were in college getting a somewhat less menial job that pays somewhat more than minimum wage didn't depend on having a college degree and the folks who did go to college were actually interested in learning

Yes, that was so. Factory jobs were plentiful and paid well, even if they were dangerous and if you didn't fall into a vat of molten steel you were likely to die of cancer before you were 40. Back then everyone accrued pensions, worked 40 hours a week, had weekends off and paid vacations as well. layoffs were almost temporary, and the layoff usually ended before your unemployment benefits did.

But that was before "free trade" moved all the jobs overseas.

Re:False analogy.

[Fred_A]

I believe that this would happen in a slightly different fashion today. "I have discovered a truly marvelous proof that all non-trivial... HAHAHA I'M IN YOUR BASE KILLIN ALL UR DOODZ U NOOB ! LOLOL 1!!!ONEONE!1!

FTFY

Re:False analogy.

[shutdown -p now]

Thank you for being respectful and professional towards your students. I only wish we had more of that kind of sensible approach (from both sides).

Re:False analogy.

[Darinbob]

Agreed. The Mac is far superior than a generic dumbed down Windows box; it's our standard engineering computer at work for some departments. Even a PC laptop with Linux is likely to be bulkier, heavier, noisier. Though on the other hand the Mac is probably 2 or 3 times as expensive...

I'm still baffled they have laptops at all in college. What happened to the stereotype of starving students? Now they're required to have luxury devices (which is what they are) to attend school?

Re:False analogy.

[JustOK]

I emagine you're right.

Re:False analogy.

[Stevecrox]

I think this can cut two ways, during the first two years of university I used a windows mobile phone with a Bluetooth keyboard. This solution worked beautifully because it was small, light and forced me to restructure my notes each evening and put them into a sane format (basically redoing the class). Switching to a laptop hurt me in someways because I didn't need to redo the notes, but then again I suddenly had access to Proteus and Maple (Computer engineering degree) and spent my time using those to improve them.

The downside is they provide a great distraction when your stuck with a dull lecturer. My business lecturers mostly covered case studies I had done for A-Level, read directly from powerpoint slides and took themselves enormously seriously over simple and obvious concepts. The ability to play Tron while they droned on and repeated themselves probably took a easy 70+% grade down to ~65%. The again I never fell asleep in their class.

What I think is daft in this article is the type of students they are complaining about would be the same no matter what the medium. Writing with a pen won't add magical qualities to the students that writing with a keyboard took away.

Lastly I don't know if the US is like the UK but a lot of kids do various University courses because they didn't know what else to do and school told them they were good at that subject. I've always thought unless you have a passion for the subject your never going to have any incentive to learn or study properly.

Re:False analogy.

[mcgrew]

No, the professor is there to help you learn.

Yes, but it's the same thing. You can't teach anyone anything they don't want to learn.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tha'ts okay. Only 5% pays attention after the first ten minutes anyway.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good parenting and good educating take as premises that it's possible to establish good judgment without the young person experiencing disastrous consequences from bad judgment.

Not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with that stance (or have wisely
not said, or passively not taken a stand).

This sounds like how we end up with "too big to fail" to me.

However, the opposite, let your child/student do what they want and then say "see I told you so"
I think is just as ugly and bad when taken to an extreme.

All in all, as the onion says, "funyons still outselling responsiblity-uns".

I favor the "*you* are responsible for your education, not your parents or your teachers or your
school" approach myself, but that doesn't seem to get you anywhere w.r.t a job or having a good relationship with your family.

(I guess my background here is showing).

Re:False analogy.

[Golddess]

I'd say it's closer to 100% (of those who want to pay attention), though I know not how I'd calculate the actual percentage.

Consider it like this. Fill up the first row with people who want to pay attention. Then the next, then the next, until you run out of people who want to pay attention. Then fill in the remaining slots with everyone who doesn't want to be there, but for whatever reason, is there. Depending on seat layout, only the people who want to pay attention who are in the same row as those who just don't care should be affected, as long as the don't cares keep silent about their actions.

Re:False analogy.

[Darinbob]

It's like a movie theater. The person in front of you may think they will enjoy the movie more if they spend the whole time sending tweets about it, but everyone sitting around them is being annoyed. They're not going to support the jerk's right to be a jerk, because it doesn't exist.

Re:False analogy.

[Darinbob]

This isn't new though, it happened when I was a teaching assistant in the early 90's (in upper division classes no less). Slack off 8 weeks, beg for more time/credit in the 9th week, and cram in the 10th week.

Re:False analogy.

[Darinbob]

When I was in high school, I looked forward to getting to college, because I naively thought the students would be more serious, there would be fewer slackers slackers and goof offs. I honestly thought you had to get good grades and do well in order to go to an important university, because in a small town only a few people did this. Then I got there and it was chock full of the same types of people, and I was amazed to learn people with absolutely no aptitude for studying were there because it was expected of them. People with C averages in high school were in there. People (or their parents) were paying high tuition fees so they could postpone real life for 4 years.

Then after a few years working I looked forward to returning and going to grad school. Because I naively imagined that only the best people would be there. But again I discovered there were some people only in graduate school because it was expected of them by their family or peer groups, despite lacking aptitudes for the subject matter. Granted, fewer drugged out slackers, and since most of them actually had to work to pay for tuition the attitude was slightly more serious.

Re:False analogy.

[Darinbob]

I have found that when I just read books or preprinted notes, or look at pictures/videos/presentations, that I don't understand the material as well as when I actually write notes myself. It may seem like a silly waste of time, but that process of writing really does help you remember (as well as forcing you to pay attention). Otherwise you're just a passive observer. Taking notes does not preclude thinking about what you're hearing either.

Of course, I was used to profs who would spare a few moments to let the pens catch up, and who'd stop and allow the class to ask questions and review what was just discussed. A good lecture is interactive.

Re:False analogy.

[Darinbob]

I'm reminded of the scene in Real Genius where a tape player is lecturing to an audience of tape recorders.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter (provided it includes drawings of monkeys and hunters, of course)

In fact, forget about the hunters ...

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

(thumbs up) Mike likes this

Re:False analogy.

[noidentity]

If I were teaching a class, I'd sure want to know that at least some of the students were benefiting and enjoying it. Otherwise I'd just feel it was wasted time, regardless of my salary.

Re:False analogy.

[mcgrew]

She continually comes home from class lamenting at the youth in her class that just don't get it. Not understanding the material is one thing, but not even trying to understand the material and then coming into class at the end of the semester asking for extra credit options is common in her new degree path of Early Childhood Development.

In defense of today's youth, that isn't any different than the kids I went to high school with. Today, Junior College is just an extension of high school. Back then it was for kids who wanted college but couldn't afford all four years, so they did the first two at a junior college unless their parents were rich or, like me, went to college on the GI bill.

Re:False analogy.

[Xest]

The only related article I recall recently was stating that people who multi-task a lot end up being less productive overall, but the problem is the experiment for the basis for their claim wasn't actually very good at demonstrating what they claimed, it was quite heavily flawed.

There's also the issue that even multitasking isn't simply defined by multiple tasks, because some tasks are easier to do at the same time as others than others are. Whilst doing a Rubik's cube whilst driving probably isn't going to end well, listening to music whilst driving is not something many people struggle with. Similarly, in a class room, I'm pretty sure there are some people who passively listen and take things in even if they are doing other things at the time- just as doodlers do in fact.

Following from that, back to the point in question, even if no one can multitask well then is the parents assertion that doodling is less of a distraction than using IM or similar not still false? It's still multi-tasking either way.

As an aside regarding multi-tasking, I think one of the difficulties about the multi-tasking debate, is that it's hard for humans to tell if they are really multi-tasking, or if they're just good at dividing their time into small slots to make it feel like they're multi-tasking- just as it often works computing.

In fact, I just dug up the article I believe you're referring too, there are some interesting points there and a more detailed explanation of why the experiments in that test seemed to be flawed a little further down:

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/25/1245221/Habitual-Multitaskers-Do-It-Badly

Either way, I'm not sure that it's something we have a conclusive answer about one way or another, so I think to assert something which I believe is entirely unproven as the parent did is a little misleading.

Re:False analogy.

[Kjella]

(although why they bother turning up in the first place is a bit of a mystery - do you get marks just for attending lectures in the US or something?).

I haven't gone to school in the US, but I've been to lectures where there was a few points you'd really want to catch, and the rest of the class was basically slow torture to get through. Particularly one Russian with very poor English, the guy was no doubt brilliant but it was a giant pain in the ass and whenever he was going through things I've already understood - which was maybe 80% of the time - I'd zone out. One class I flunked because it was impossible without class notes, he knew I hadn't been there so wanted to see me fall on the oral exam. I got enough credits anyway, so luckily never had to retake it.

Re:False analogy.

[IICV]

The most common reason I have heard for not doing that is because then people don't go to class.

Honestly though, I'm fine with that - if you provide lecture notes before class and I don't go to class, that's because your lecture sucks and the notes already have everything I need. If I do go to class, I'm glad that those douchebags who'd normally be going just for the lecture notes are absent. It's basically win-win no matter what.

Re:False analogy.

[Rick17JJ]

I am also someone who could never write fast enough to keep up with what the instructor was saying. Besides that, I also found that the note taking process prevented me from fully paying attention to the lecture. It felt awkward seeing everyone around me constantly scribbling frantically, while I just sat there doing nothing. But for me, it clearly was a choice between paying attention and taking good notes. Of course, if the instructor in any way hinted that something might be on the test, I always wrote that down.

If most of what was being said was also in the assigned reading material in the textbook, why should I have to write everything down? Despite taking only very limited notes, I managed get an A in most of my classes at the Junior College. However, I was never one of those students who do that without studying much.

At a Junior College in the late 1980s, I once asked permission to record a lecture. The instructor said OK. However, part way through the lecture, the instructor made several pro-gun comments in a small class consisting partially of gun smithing students. It then occurred to him, that I had just recorded what he had said and that I was not a gun smithing student, or even a gun enthusiast myself. So he demanded that I immediately erase the entire tape. He expressed concern about the college administrators hearing what he had said. That was the last time I ever dared to try to record a lecture.

I did not think he said anything unreasonable, even though I did not agree with everything that he said. At the time, I felt he was entitled to his opinion and that he presented his thoughts well enough to at least make me consider what he had said. Even if I had disagreed more strongly, I still would not have shared the comments from the tape.

By the way, when I first took some college classes back in the early 1970s we also occasionally used slide rules, because pocket calculators did not exist. Of course cell phone and laptop computers did not exist yet either.

Re:False analogy.

[mcgrew]

I see you're a geezer, too. My last sig was "my first computer was a slide rule".

Re:False analogy.

[danlock4]

Abstract doodling helped me to remember my college classes a LOT better. When I'd go back and look at the doodles, I could remember what the professor was talking about and what my thoughts were while I was drawing whatever part of the doodle I would be later looking at. I took very few textual notes because I remembered the "doodled" lectures better for a few months afterward, which was long enough to get me through the final exams for that semester. My memory was and is pretty awful for most things, though, thanks to a TBI (traumatic brain injury).

Re:False analogy.

[cayenne8]

Very interesting!!

:)

So far, an interesting ride for me too....

I think I heard that once Keith Richards was asked something like: "You've been famous and wealthy for so long, you've had all the women, money, fame, etc a person could every have in a life time...so, what makes you happy these days?"

Keith: "Waking up..."

I gotta say...I kinda go along with that myself...

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to think this was true, but what about all those kids who went to college just because it's what their parents expected (and consequently, were paying their way through school.) The reality is that money and social background has much more to do with why someone goes to college, both in the past, as now. I don't think the percentage of kids who don't care about what they're studying has changed all that much. We tend to romanticize the past.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn straight... I'm taking an advanced PLC's undergrad course and my professor feels it is important to lecture for three hours about BS that does not really pertain to my learning anything new or improving my grade. I sit in the back row and can watch everyone else play games and surf facebook while we are all bored out of our minds. Out of the 3 hr lecture, I may only record 2 pages of notes max and everyone that I've spoken with feels like his lectures could be cut down to 15 minutes. Alternatively, I'm taking a motors class, where the teacher lectures for an hour and I record about 15 pages of notes that I understand when I leave class.

Ultimately, I believe banning laptops/electronic devices are the teachers way of trying to force the students to pay attention instead of actually engaging the students to learn. If you teach a class in a droll monotone voice, I'm not going to learn nearly as easily as I will from a teacher who asks the students what is happening with said problem and actually waits for a few people to attempt to answer it.
The more they tighten their grip, the more star systems slip through their fingers......

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The big fail has been in changing the curriculum to make it digitally interactive..."

Why is it a failure? Why change old methods that are known to work? If the current students are failing to learn based on proven college level curriculum then the problem lies with the students. That doesn't mean that lectures shouldn't be improved with technology. But it is highly overrated. Students don't learn more just because they are entertained.

"The current school generation does have a harder time maintaining focus upon a single subject."

No they don't. They are less WILLING to. There is a difference. They can focus on tasks they like.

Re:False analogy.

[vertinox]

Score: Computer Science Degree for me, MacDonald's for multitaskers

Sadly, I've worked for a few fortune 500 it desks that demanded things that were impossible to do unless you were ADD.

And no you can't stay more than 60 hours a week uncomped because they were already sued for that... So they specifically said to do things while you were doing other things when someone objected to the lack of time to complete said objectives.

Considering they laid off half their workforce... And fired anyone for the most inconsequential thing.

I'm glad I resigned... Anyways.

Just saying there are a few major companies out there that not only suggest multi-tasking... But demand it in writing.

Re:False analogy.

[Xest]

I guess the question though, is does everyone doodle in a manner that's relevant to what's being learnt, or are some doodles unrelated?

Do you tend to doodle things that are relevant to the subject at hand, i.e. basically using sketches as a form of notes, or do you mean you just doodle seemingly unrelated objects, but to you they act as a memory prompt or similar?

I know some people just doodle things like random cubes when they're on the phone, and whilst I understand these have phsycological meaning they don't have any relevance to the phone call they had however. I'm sure others though, possibly like yourself when you doodle tend to doodle things that are indeed more directly related to the subject at hand?

Re:False analogy.

[Fallingcow]

Not understanding the material is one thing, but not even trying to understand the material and then coming into class at the end of the semester asking for extra credit options is common in her new degree path of Early Childhood Development.

I, too, was shocked at the number of complete dumbasses seeking higher education. Your wife's in classes with education majors, though, which means she's really got it bad. My wife did an elementary ed. degree, and man did she ever have some great (by which I mean sad) stories about her fellow students. The field seems to attract morons, for some reason. It's also full of people who will gladly tell you that they hate math. Weird.

Judging from her experiences with school administration, I'm guessing it doesn't get any better in grad school, either. A shockingly large portion of those people don't seem to possess basic reasoning skills, let alone an understanding of the scientific process (very important for school admin, given how often they attempt to imitate the processes used in whatever school management book is popular at the time)

Re:False analogy.

[DrCode]

I think that back in the day, the old people just had different things to complain about. When I was at UCLA 1975-79 as a grad. student, tuition was cheap (~$800/year), and a lot of the undergrads were there to party and delay going to work. The older generation, including we grad. students who were TA's, complained about how the undergrads didn't have the basic writing and math skills that previous generations did when they entered college, and how they didn't value their education because it was almost free.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was in high school, I looked forward to getting to college, because I naively thought the students would be more serious, there would be fewer slackers slackers and goof offs. I honestly thought you had to get good grades and do well in order to go to an important university, because in a small town only a few people did this. Then I got there and it was chock full of the same types of people, and I was amazed to learn people with absolutely no aptitude for studying were there because it was expected of them. People with C averages in high school were in there. People (or their parents) were paying high tuition fees so they could postpone real life for 4 years.

You too, huh? I think the average intelligence of my classmates actually dropped when I went to college--granted, my graduating class in high school was bizarrely smart, but still. It was quite a shock. I thought there would be more work than high school, too, but it turned out to be far less, at least in terms of time spent.

I also thought the first three semesters would be something other than a condensed repeat of 7th-11th grade (didn't even touch my 12th year), but I was wrong about that as well. So many misconceptions.

Re:False analogy.

[Almost-Retired]

So do I. Waking up means I will probably get another day to screw things up. ;-)

Re:False analogy.

[danlock4]

My doodles were random shapes, cubes, swirls, dots, hash patterns with alternating dark and light squares... really, they were completely nonsensical other than sometimes containing shading patterns that might have indicated certain parts might be two-dimensional representations of 3D objects with a light source coming from an arbitrary direction.

The doodles mostly began with circular shapes with straighter-lined patterns filling the blank spots between the lines. They usually looked pretty stupid until I added enough extra detail and smoothed the rough edges enough to make them look more intelligently-constructed.

It was abstract line art, mostly in blue or black ink, and not related to the classes' topics in any way except that focusing on the instructors' words was easier for me while doodling, which related the doodles to the lectures only in my mind and memories.

Re:False analogy.

[vajorie]

do you get marks just for attending lectures in the US or something?

profs assign grades to in-class participation. but quite a lot of students do not understand that unless you come to class, you can't participate. so profs end up having to do attendance so that a majority of class won't fail...

Re:False analogy.

[sonicmerlin]

I don't think I could marry a women who already had kids.

Re:False analogy.

[Almost-Retired]

A new waitress girl showed up at my favorte greasy spoon, 23 years old, 3rd grade education from the cotton fields of northern Arkansas, beaten to hell by her first man, a full blooded Sioux. I was also 23. She handed me a big wood screw the 3rd night she was there as I came in to get some vittles & asked if that was what I was looking for, and she had already told the rest of the help there that I was going to be her next & last husband 10 minutes after I walked in and asked for couple of cheeseburgers the first time. Both in dire need of a one night stand, we talked in between catching up, and I realized that here was the girl I'd been waiting for for 10+ years before the first hour was over, so she went to my rented room with me that night and we found a J.P. 2 weeks later. She went, without argument, anyplace I went, was a hell of a good cook, a good mother, kept a clean house, was a deadly accurate instinct shooter & caught as many fish as I did, and was always ready to play, including standing up in the boat once. Her love was unconditional. Wise way beyond her paper education, I was able to teach her the fundamentals of the then new semiconductor stuff even as I was learning it in the early 60's.

The beginning of the end, and we neither of us understood it at the time, was a patch of skin on the front of a leg that suddenly didn't have any feelings. Now I know that the name of that is a T.I.A., and it should have been a huge red flag to go see what was going on as it might have been fixable then. But we were both 10 foot tall and bulletproof.

3 months later that blood clot got bounced loose as she was trying to break a 3 year old & still proud gelding to ride, and went to the middle carotid artery on the left side. She was right handed, and ran down in the middle of a sentence of gibberish as I came in from a wee hours shift doing maintenance at the tv transmitter with thoughts of having a little fun before I took a nap. I phoned the doc, wrapped her in a blanket because it was cold out that time of the morning and hauled ass to the body shop, where the best neurosurgeon west of the river took one look at the blank left 2/3rds of her brain and told me to get the family headed this way, there wasn't anything he could do with the tools at his disposal in mid 1968. So I did what I had to do. And 42 years later in 2010, I still miss that girl. If there is a hereafter, I hope we can find each other. 2 of the 3 children we had have also passed, the big C, so maybe we can have a family reunion when my time is done.

More than you wanted to know I expect, but then this is slashdot. Bare souls are a road hazard.

--
Cheers, Gene

Re:False analogy.

[apoc.famine]

I can bring a different prospective to that:

It's been 10 years since my undergraduate degree, and I've finally found what I love. But going into a graduate program, they won't teach me the basics of it. But I can't get a bachelor's degree, because I already have one from a decade ago, and a MA from 4 years ago. Most colleges refuse to accept you for a BS after you already have one. At the same time, most graduate programs will take you, even if your BS doesn't have to do with what you're getting a PhD in.

So I, and a couple of other people, are dropped into a graduate program, doing what we LOVE, but we don't have a Bachelor's degree in the subject. Our backgrounds mean we're woefully unprepared for this, yet there's no other way to do it.

I'd LOVE to be in a condensed undergraduate degree this first year. Instead, there are a couple of us who are pretty much being set up to fail. We were accepted despite lacking a lot of background information. Then we were expected to have a BS in our field, and pretty much failed the first semester because we didn't.

Re:False analogy.

[mark-t]

"It's either your money, in which case it is your problem; or your parent's money, in which case they can always scream at you or cut you off."

No. A large amount of it is government funded in many cases. Unless one is going to a private school, only a relatively small portion of the total cost of education is directly covered by the tuition fees that are paid by the student

Re:False analogy.

[net28573]

And yet most mac users buy them only because "they don't want to take the time to learn how they work."

Re:False analogy.

[net28573]

"If you are going to be doing substantially distracting things in the same class where I am trying to learn, though, you've just made it my problem." it depends on your definition of the phrase "substantially distracting". if by that you mean someone playing a video on high volume without headphones, then i agree. but unless there is an auditory distraction I don't see a reason why it would be distracting because The people who really don't give a shit and are displaying on their screen anything thats distracting will normally be sitting in the back. i think this would dismiss your primate metaphor. (please comment if you think im wrong i love feedback)

Re:False analogy.

[net28573]

it's pointless to ban laptops because a more annoying distraction will come from the alternative method of taking notes that people will have to readjust themselves to. Instead of people being able to put headphones on to allow other students to listen while they play, peoples phones will be binging more than ever after this due to common features a lot of phones have today which in most ways replicate what a laptop can do except for the useful keyboard which allows you to take notes efficiently. i would rather not have my phone use banned due to some idios forgetting to set their phones on vibrate/silent/off. a laptop is a necessary evill. at least it has a keyboard. most peoples keyboard typing is way faster than their writing, and less tiring. this is comparible to the problem highschools have with internet filtering and the new proxys that replace the ones the tech guys blocked. its a never ending cycle.

Re:False analogy.

[net28573]

from a grading point of view iv'e never seen how anyone could get anything over 100% in anything unless there is extra credit involved and its being used for individual assignments. maybe you meant that but just saying that iv'e never heard of anyone with 105%+ ESPECIALLY when they only do "pretty good" on the tests.

Re:False analogy.

[ImNotAtWork]

Yes, but it's the same thing. You can't teach anyone anything they don't want to learn.

I know some Irish Catholic nuns at parochial school that would disagree and I'm currently better off for it.

Re:False analogy.

[unitron]

What brand and model number is this portable reel to reel tape recorder of which you speak?

Re:False analogy.

[Pentium100]

Uher Report 4400 Stereo IC

Has 4 speeds (19; 9.5; 4.75; 2.38 cm/s) can record in 4 track stereo (or 4 track mono), runs on 5 D batteries or a rechargeable 6V 3.3Ah lead-acid battery. Can hold reels of up to ~12cm diameter. 275m reel (long play tape) is enough for 3 hours on one track at the slowest speed (which is enough for speech), a 550m reel of triple play tape is enough for 6 hours/track, which is 24 hours per reel.

Re:False analogy.

[unitron]

I was wondering where you found a recently manufactured portable reel to reel, and now I see that you didn't.

I also see that they cost more now than new.

Re:False analogy.

[Pentium100]

It's not like the tape recorder being >30 years old affects its function. The one I had appears to be lightly used, so it's not worn out or anything. I had to replace a bunch of shorted electrolytic capacitors when I got it but that wasn't a problem to me.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Doodling with pen and paper doesn't absorb the attention to the same degree as playing Facebook games and chatting with friends via IM.

Big fucking deal. This isn't kindergarten, it's college. They're paying for the class, if they don't want to learn then it's their loss. Just because some professor can't figure out how to fill his lecture session and pads it out by playing 20 questions during class isn't a good justification for this ban.
I had a prof in college that also insisted on this type of half-assed teaching style. One day when he called on me I said "Hey, I'm paying YOU to give me the answers here, so unless you're giving us an oral quiz which counts towards our grades I'd appreciate it if you quit wasting our time & money and got back to teaching."

Re:False analogy.

[Xest]

That's pretty interesting, it leaves me something to think about!

I've certainly doodled a fair bit in the past myself, but I've never conciously tried to reflect on those doodles, why I did them or what they meant. It's possible that at the time then that like you they actually had some useful benefits to my thought process for me without me really even noticing. I don't tend to doodle nowadays much because I tend to keep my desks paperless. I wonder if there's some benefit to having paper handy to doodle on when thinking or talking on the phone or similar, even if for nothing else?

Re:False analogy.

[mackyrae]

No, we pay to be told which pages of a textbook are relevant and take exams on the material. Classes are a waste of time. Skip them all, and read the textbook, and you'll learn it better than you will just listening to your professor gab. Twice now, I've discovered when reading the textbook just before an exam that hey, this stuff *can* be interesting, it's just the professors that make it boring! Stupid attendance points.

One exception: Gabe Parmer, GWU's new Operating Systems professor, can make confusing things like concurrency (spinlocks, semaphores, etc.) and page caches easy. After spending only one day on concurrency in his class, I got it. I overheard one student tell him that in a computer architecture class they'd spent 2 weeks on page caches without it making sense, but he'd just taught it in one day, and it made perfect sense. Such teachers are rare.

Re:False analogy.

[mcgrew]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against letting others use them. I think banning them is stupid.

Re:False analogy.

[Anonymous Coward]

If a student chooses to waste his or her time surfing the net rather than getting an education, that's their choice. There's obviously much deeper problems here than the computer and outrightly banning these devices is unlikely to fix anything

Re:False analogy.

[frdmfghtr]

When you take a primate whose visual system has been shaped by millenia of evolution in an environment where every movement in the corner of your eye is either dinner or about to make you dinner, and put them a few rows back in a class full of screens showing moving images, their attention is going to suffer, whether they like it or not.

Too true...in all my college classes, I found that I was able to pay attention to the lecture better when I sat in the front two rows. Wen I was in back, I was distracted by the littlest of things...that student over there fiddling with her phone, that student over there who brought a three-course meal to class. The downside was that I didn't know who was in class with me half the time, because they sat behind me.

Re:False analogy.

[rh775]

and that is why they ban laptops, they are boring and uninspiring.

Re:False analogy.

[LordVader717]

Plus a number of lectures and courses are just plain bad that it truly does become a waste of ressources to try to concentrate on a lecture. I bet you that most of them are just there to get an idea of where the curriculum was headed and prefer to study the subject with better materials. Lectures that are well-conceived and presented properly are usually rewarded with higher levels of attention.

Re:False analogy.

[zero.kalvin]

I can shed some light on this, I am doing physics in France. An important percentage of my fellow colleagues(not just French others as well) use Macs on the laptops. However for any scientific calculations done it's always Linux. Mostly Scientific Linux. Personally I am not willing to pay that money for a Mac.

Internet

[yenne]

Sounds like the problem is Internet access, not the laptops. I wonder if today's professors know the difference.

Re:Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

I do. All my colleagues in the liberal arts department readily use the e on desktops as well.

Re:Internet

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I've seen plenty of offline distractions as well(DVDs, local video, games, etc.), though the internet is of course the most common source.

In contemporary campus environments, though, how relevant is the difference? The campus, or at least all the academic buildings, are almost certainly blanketed by wifi, controlled by an IT department that isn't about to start taking "Please shut down all APs accessible in room X during times Y and Z" requests if they can possibly help it; and a fair few laptops either have integrated cellular modems or are tethered to phones with decently zippy internet access.

I'm sure that there are plenty of professors(and not just flakey humanities technophobes, the fact that you were writing formal CS proofs in TeX back when it was new doesn't automatically translate to a working knowledge of contemporary consumer electronics) who don't necessarily grasp the distinction; but I strongly suspect that it is a distinction without meaningful difference in most contexts.

The other issue is that, since most laptops have their screens sticking up vertically from the desk they are sitting on, you get the physically troublesome "wall of monitors" effect, no matter what is happening on those laptops.

Re:Internet

[wideBlueSkies]

So take the access away but leave the laptops. What's going to stop someone from playing Solitaire or Tetris locally... or looking at a local cache of ..images... ?

Myself, I'd be writing my comp sci projects in some lame lib arts mandated classes... but that's just me....

Re:Internet

[bickerdyke]

Given a large enough Lecture hall with enough students with laptops...

AdHoc-WiFi and P2P copying (or simpel SMB shares) would be enough for distraction with or without internet.

and...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Two of my professors "banned" laptops in their classes. I kept bringing mine. They didn't do anything about it. Namely because they know they can't really do anything about it. Most professors ban students from texting in class. Because, you know, that doesn't happen either.

Re:and...?

[ircmaxell]

Actually, I wonder if you're on to something there. Is this ban a "I don't want to see it ever", or a "If you're disruptive, I'll kick you out"... I mean seriously, we're talking about college. It's not up to the professor if you learn anything, it's your job. If you're off screwing around on your laptop instead of taking notes, then it's your own dam fault. And a teacher that cares that you're not paying attention is one that I'd argue isn't doing his/her job. The reason I say it that way, is that at the end of the course, the teacher is responsible for verifying that you know the material. Not that you learned it in his class.

I had that happen to me in an intro to C course. I'd been programming in C for some years by that point but the school wouldn't let me skip the course (even though I demonstrated advanced knowledge). So after 3 classes, the teacher noticed that I was constantly surfing the net during the time when we were supposed to be working on his problems (He counted attendance). After the third class, he asked me to see him after. When he did, he told me I'd need to do the work if I expected to pass the class. I showed him every problem that he'd given us to do (that I completed in a few minutes). I then explained that I first ventured into C years ago, and felt comfortable with the material. So what did he do? The next class, he gave me a rather hard problem from the end of the course. He said if I can finish it by the end of class, I'd get an A and not have to show up any more. So I got my A, and had one less class to attend.

The moral of the story? Just because someone's goofing off doesn't mean that they don't know the material or that they should be punished. Learn WHY a student is goofing off before punishing them (After all, it could be because you fail at teaching). But then again, that's asking teachers to do their jobs...

Re:and...?

[CastrTroy]

I very much agree with this. By the time you get to college, it isn't the teacher's responsibility to ensure that you are paying attention. The professor is supposed to present the material in a way that gets the point across. If you don't want to listen, that is your own problem. In my day, laptops weren't so popular. Probably about 1 in 20 people had a laptop. We still had tons of other things to not pay attention with. Be it Tetris on the TI-86, or just doodling with a pen and paper, or doing your assignment for some other class that is due in 3 hours. If the student doesn't want to pay attention, they won't. They are adults. They should be at least responsible enough to do what needs to be done to learn the material. That doesn't always include going to class and listening to the professor. With the quality of some professors, you could learn more my specifically not going to class.

Re:and...?

[Anonymous Coward]

+1

Re:and...?

[ebuck]

The problem with "If your disruptive, I'll kick you out" is that the students who are performing the act typically don't consider themselves disruptive. If they did consider themselves disruptive, they probably wouldn't be doing the act. So professors eventually get forced into "I don't want to see it ever" which just drives all the students who are disruptive to cry "If we're not disruptive, why isn't it allowed". The only solution with a chance of working is a professor giving an impromptu ethics class on how one's actions could be damaging to one's peers, but most people (any age) really don't care if they harm their neighbor provided they get their instant gratification.

Re:and...?

[IsoRashi]

Towards the end of college, I had to take a "general" class to graduate. I ended up taking "intro to music" since I had played in concert band throughout middle- and high-school. The teacher had some hands-on activities planned for the class and figured out pretty quickly that I had a clue as to what I was doing and ended up using me as a TA for the rather large class. It was actually kind of fun helping out, and when I showed up for the final she thanked me for my help, said I had an A, and then excused me.

Re:and...?

[neochubbz]

With the quality of some professors, you could learn more my specifically not going to class.

I totally agree with this statement. I'm a engineering sophomore right now and there are just some teachers who are just plain horrible. I specifically recall one physics lecture where my grade IMPROVED when I stopped going to lecture. This semester, there are some other classes with the same "quality" teaching, which I'd really like to skip, but the professor has an attendance policy. So, my laptop has become my saving grace. Mind, I dont do anything too distracting, usually just surfing the web or working on other assignments. I've come to find that the classes with attendance policies either mean either the class or the professor is worthless.

Re:and...?

[wanax]

And I would totally disagree. What you say has some truth for one particular type of college class: a lecture style class in a technical subject. In any other setting however, both the learning environment and student responses are often vital to the success of a class. This is particularly true in a seminar setting. By goofing off during discussions, when student responses to material or group work are regularly expected, you are hurting not just yourself, but the other students in the class.

Signing up for a college class is not simply "I pay you, you go regurgitate at the front of the room, and if I don't want to learn, it's my damned money." When you sign up for the class, you are obliged to comport yourself in a manner appropriate to the class and to engender an environment conducive to learning. It is unfair both for your fellow students and your professor if you do not do so, and the professor has both right and responsibility to ask you to leave the class or mark you down if they deem your behavior to be disruptive.

Re:and...?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad your professor used common sense and saved you the hassle. However, I do disagree with his attendance policy. I had a class like that. It was a tech elect class with grad students in it. It was one of the most difficult classes I took (Maybe partly due to the teacher?). He would take attendance and lecture over material that we just had homework on. Everyone was having trouble with the homework and someone finally mentioned that he/she thought the homework material had not been covered in class. He said that the homework was given to prepare the students for his lectures. So we were supposed to figure out how to do the homework ourselves and then, after turning the homework in, he would lecture on it the following week.

Re:and...?

[Kamots]

In classes which are primarily discussion based (i.e., a nice high level philosophy course) I agree, a laptop has no place.

However, for me, having a laptop to distract myself with is creating "an environment conducive to learning." I didn't use it in a way that was disruptive to others (browse slashdot, play solitare, etc), but it's ability to keep me entertained had me attending a lot of lectures that I otherwise would have skipped. My distractionary use of the laptop was inversely related to the quality of the instructor.

Personally I'd lose all respect for an instructor that banned laptops. Students alternatively occupying themselves with their laptop is in most cases a sign that you're doing a poor job as an instructor. Attempting to remove the indicator that you suck rather than fix the problem... well... hardly seems ethical to me.

Re:and...?

[SilverJets]

As long as your goofing off doesn't interfere with the other students in the class who are actually there to learn.

Nothing worse than having to listen to the inane babble of "who drank how much over the weekender" or "whether or not that chick in the bar called yet" when trying to focus on what the prof is saying.

Re:and...?

[ircmaxell]

I don't consider that "Goofing Off". I consider that "Creating a Disturbance". If you're on your laptop chatting (Text, not voice) with a friend (as long as sound is off), what is the harm to others? If you're talking during the class (off topic), you deserve to be kicked out. Equate goofing off on a laptop to doing a crossword puzzle during class. Aside from your distraction, who else is harmed? If others are bothered by what you're doing (and they are free to complain), then you should be asked to stop and kicked out of class if you don't...

Re:and...?

[ircmaxell]

Well, my question is this. What's the point of a college level course? To learn? No. It's to prove an adequate level of knowledge in a particular area. If you don't have the adequate level of knowledge, then it's up to the teacher to attempt to, well, teach you... If you have that level up front --aside from proving it-- why should you have to attend class yet alone participate (Yes, I know you can argue that others will learn from you, but that's the teacher's job, at least in undergraduate work)? Now, some subjects are trickier than others to test for knowledge. Some examples would be a public speaking course, or a laboratory class... But the large portion --including subjective subjects such as interpretive courses, reading courses, writing courses and even political courses-- can be tested without a course work. I agree that not participating during a discussion could be harmful to the rest of the class, but in those cases, why is attendance mandatory? If I can prove my abilities (via written test, or oral exam, etc), why should I have to show up and listen to a professor blabber? That's one reason why I can't stand the concept of graded homework. Give out homework for two reasons. One, to let the students practice and better grasp the material. Two, to get a general understanding of how the class as a whole is grasping the material (so you can adjust your teaching). It shouldn't count for your grade. Now sure, some people don't test well. But if they don't test well (where there's no opportunity to cheat), and do well on homework (which ultimately doesn't prove anything) why should you be able to pass?

The reason I am so adement about the whole homework issue, is because of what happened to me freshman year. In my senior year of high school, I took AP calculus (Advanced Placement, basically if you took the course, and passed a test you'd get college credit). We went further into the material than we were supposed to (We got through the rest faster than expected). So we went through the entirety of Calculus 2 before the end of senior year. But because the test that we signed up for was only valid for Calc 1, I had to take Calc 2 freshman year. The teacher that I had thought it would be a good idea to give around 10+ hours of homework per week (And when I say 10 hours, I mean 10 hours for those who know the material. Not 10 hours for everyone in the class). And count it for 25% of our grade at the end. So I should have spent around 80 hours of wasted time that semester doing work that I didn't have to do, because the teacher felt that homework was necessary. Now sure, you can argue that I got a lot of practice during that time, but I stopped doing the homework after the first week. I got a 5% on the homework part of the grade, but a 100% on the rest. So I finished the course with a 80% (B- at that school). Not because I didn't know the material (I was one of 2 people in the course to get 100% on the final exam), but because I felt that my time outside of the class was better suited to working on subjects that I didn't have a strong grasp on rather than the one that I felt I really knew well.

The education system (In America at least) is WAY to focused on going through the motions (making it look like their teaching) as opposed to identifying and stimulating education. Even the lower schools focus on standardized tests. If you can pass them, great, sit back and just be quiet. If you can't, we need to do something about that. What about accepting the fact that different people have different mental abilities, and adjusting teaching patterns for each. Some people simply aren't smart enough to pass a standardized test. That's not a failure of the education system (it is a failure if they had the capability, but weren't taught correctly). What is a failure of the education system is when you have someone that goes through school just "coasting" because they were never challenged and given an opportunity to excel. It makes me wonder how many "Einsteins" slipped through the education system because they just got too bored with it...

Re:and...?

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a similar experience when I went to the local technical college some years ago. I was only in High School, but I had been designing electronic circuits and programming computers for several years already. I registered for a night class called Microprocessor Interfacing. It was a required 4th-semester class for their Electronics degree. I thought it might prove interesting. When the night came for the first class, I found out the class was cancelled. Instead, I was put in its prerequisite course: Microprocessor Fundamentals. This class consisted of programming 6502 Assembly Language on VIC-20 computers. I had been doing this for at least 4 years prior (and ironically, I had a VIC-20). The teacher recognized this and asked me why I took the class. I explained that it was the other class I wanted. To my astonishment he gave me all the assignments for both classes and told me to get them done by the end of the semester. I finished all of them in about 2 weeks and spent the rest of the semester being challenged by him to construct more difficult circuits and programs. I never learned so much from any class since. Colleges need more teachers like him.

Witless stenographers?

[Thyamine]

I don't know what they think is happening, but I had the same thing happen with pencil and paper. Trying to keep up with some profs who are scribbling madly on the chalk/whiteboard, or just droning on and on. Stuff gets written down with little or no thought so it can be studied later. I'd be happier having it in a nice doc I can search while reading my books or through other pages of notes. They just don't like the fact that their audience isn't as mentally trapped if they are boring or unable to retain student attention.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[bcmm]

I am dyslexic, and writing on paper at any decent speed pretty much takes my full attention, but I can type faster than most without thinking about it. I'm sure a lot of other people are like this.

I wonder how long it will be before someone challenges this as discrimination.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[plague3106]

Indeed. Some profs went way too fast, I couldn't stop to think about what was being said, I had to get it all down.. and try to absorb it later. Nevermind that I can type faster than write, and I can actually read something I've typed as well.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[icebrain]

Exactly. Personally, I can't take notes on a computer (it's a style thing; I don't write them in nice orderly rows and I tend to make lots of diagrams, arrows, sketches, etc), but even trying to take notes in class I was often reduced to being a "mindless stenographer." I couldn't process and think about what the professor was writing because I was too busy just trying to write it down, particularly with stuff involving heavy/high-level math. I usually wound up using the class notes not to learn from directly, but rather as references for doing the homework or making equation sheets.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[ShadowRangerRIT]

I don't know about you, but myself and a few of my friends found that even though it seemed like both ways of taking notes would trigger the witless stenographer, writing by hand actually locked the information in, while computer note-taking meant you remembered little or none of it. Maybe it's just the time lag involved; in order to keep up while taking notes by hand, you have to buffer the information, reformat it to be shorter or faster to write, then commit it to paper (yes, I was a CS major, and it infects my description of non-CS related things). If you can type at the same speed the professor is providing the information, you're not forced to look for shortcuts, so you don't do any interpretation.

Of course, the other problem is the incessant keyboard clacking. They may simply be trying to reduce the "auditory clutter" in the room. If not for loud keyboards, I couldn't care less if other students are using a computer to take notes; if I'm right and the computer is a less effective tool, that hurts them, not me.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Gribflex]

I think it will never fly as discrimination.
If you are dyslexic, you can claim that you have a disability, and require special accommodations. This can be verified by a qualified third party, and you can then apply for an exemption to the rule (which I assume the school will grant automatically).

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Pojut]

My fiancee found that (with her profs permission, of course) having an audio recorder up close to the guy while he was going through his lecture really helped her. She would write down the general idea of what he was talking about, then later that night listen to the recording and type out more complete notes, using her written notes from class as reference. Doing it twice and hearing it twice helped her retain more.

Granted, this won't work for everyone, but it certainly worked for her.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[lfp98]

At seminars, I found taking notes by hand much more distracting than typing on computer; I had to look away from the speaker and would lose the train of thought. With a computer I am much more engaged; I find myself putting the ideas into my own words. I'm not a great typist, so afterward I would go over the text and correct the errors, which helped to fix the ideas in my brain. I used to do this at scientific meetings but what ended it was that I would have to turn the power-save settings to max and I would wear out hard drives with the constant on-and-off.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Mongoose Disciple]

I was pretty much in the same boat. I wish I had a laptop for college -- I genuinely can't read my own handwriting most of the time.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[MichaelDelving]

Agree, for any HARD class. E.g., upper-level undergrad and grad-level theoretic courses in your (engineering)department/major. You scribble every last greek character in every equation from the board, in a desperate attempt to try to get down every jot of information (also verbal explanations). You read over your notes later to 'unpack' and store the knowledge, because you were writing so fast you were only using the short-short-term buffer of memory. Before the exam, you recopy your notes neatly, and then you magically can reproduce any arcane derivation on demand. And then again, years later, in preparation for the comprehensive exam.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[jimicus]

Stuff gets written down with little or no thought so it can be studied later

Which is precisely what the lecturer doesn't want. You're much more likely to understand if you listen to what they say, try and understand it and then write abbreviated notes in your own words than if you mindlessly commit words to paper.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Attila Dimedici]

Indeed. Some profs went way too fast, I couldn't stop to think about what was being said, I had to get it all down.. and try to absorb it later. Nevermind that I can type faster than write, and I can actually read something I've typed as well.

That shows that you never learned to take notes properly. The idea of class notes is that they are the high lights of the lecture, the main points that all of the rest follows from. I had one professor who would somewhere near the beginning of his lecture put one word in the center of the board. Then as the elcture went on he woud write other words on the board. He would underline some words and circle others. He would connect them with lines. My notes would look much like the board. Why? Because that allowed me to follow what words were important and what ideas were linked.
If you need to write down everything the professor is saying then the professor is nothing more than a spoken textbook and you would be better served by having the professor write such a book then sitting in a lecture.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

Yes, like you never read back anything that you've written.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[bloobloo]

I'm afraid you're the troll here, intentionally or not.

A dyslexic is a person with dyslexia.
For over ten years, dyslexic students in the UK have been given laptops because it has been shown that it improves their results.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[digitig]

Hardly a troll. Dysgraphia is a co-morbidity of dyslexia, so many (most?) dyslexics have precisely the symptoms described, and it may be caused by the same neurological condition (nobody knows). Try learning a little about disabilities before flaming their sufferers.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[wideBlueSkies]

>>Nice troll, but dyslexia is a neurological disorder that affects reading, not writing.

My understanding, as a dyslexic, is that the brain gets confused and/or mangles symbols - meaning letters. This can be manifested on the way in (reading) or on the way out (writing). In my case specifically, I have the writing / typing problem... and i also suffer from disgraphia.. where I tend to convolute numbers and formulas.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[arieswind]

Maybe you should do a bit of research before you try calling other people's comments bullshit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgraphia

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you should educate yourself a bit more about dyslexia.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he's actually Lysdexic, but then wrote it wrong. Stop being so discriminatory!

Re:Witless stenographers?

[timbur]

While I find the same is true, I find having my notes and other documents searchable via Google Desktop Search invaluable.

If I were in school today, I would use a TabletPC. Hand-writing notes in either OneNote or EverNote together with the audio recording is fabulous with these programs. (At least with Onenote, it will sync the audio with your notes. I think Evernote will do that too.) And then my notes would also be searchable using whichever desktop search utility I prefer.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[plague3106]

You've never had a prof that raced through the material have you? I certainly know how to take notes... but some just go nuts up there. I wasn't writing everything, but the pace was such that I was always writing.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[WilliamBaughman]

I have a disability similar to dyslexia, called dysgraphia. It makes writing by hand extremely difficult, but my ability to use a keyboard is normal. This was documented by a psychiatrist and so I have taken some writing exams with a laptop. No one has ever given me grief for it. That said, there is no way that a ban on laptops applying to students with recognized and diagnosed disabilities would survive a suit unless there were "adequate accommodations" made for the student. Student Disability Services at Cornell University offered to have a classmate carbon copy their notes, but I found it more convenient to make audio recordings of the lectures.

Interesting side note: Firefox's spell checker recognizes dyslexia, but not dysgraphia.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[jitterman]

I don't think parent is a troll here (I want to say that you are, given your tone, but I'll withhold, since reading vs. hearing can distort the intended message and I could be mistaken).

My youngest sister has dyslexia, and she qualified for note takers in college (yes, a human who took notes for her while she listened to the lecture), along with extended exam time, pen-shaped scanners that verbalize text, and other considerations. At the time I wondered how she would deal in the "real world" that wouldn't allow her such luxuries, but I see now that the important thing was that she was able to gain the knowledge she needs to do what she wants to do in life. She's now successful in her career, even if reading for pleasure isn't exactly her "cuppa."

Re:Witless stenographers?

[mea37]

If your approach to note-taking with pen and paper is to write down everything said, then I suppose you would end up writing without thinking; but in that case you should've learned how to take notes. The difference between pen/paper and computer is that very few people would even try to keep up with verbatim recording of the lecture using pen and paper. (And also that pen/paper is freeform and random access so you can take notes more effectively than with a computer, if you actually know how to take notes.)

Oh, and as for being 'mentally trapped' - you may not be aware of this, but someone is paying on behalf of each student for the opportunity to have that student's attention "trapped" by the professor. It's true that a really good professor will make you "feel" more interested, but ultimately their job isn't to entertain. The student's job is to pay attention.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[CaspianXI]

I think it's a matter of personal preference. I, personally, tend to be more of a "witness stenographer" when taking notes with pen and paper. Because I can type faster than I can write, using a computer allows me more opportunities in class to stop and ponder the material.

I don't think there's any hard and fast rule that says that paper is better than computers or vice versa. Forcing students into using what the professor finds more helpful handicaps students who want to find the method which works best for them.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Tegid Ap Teles]

Doing it twice and hearing it twice helped her retain more.

It certainly doesn't work for everyone... who has time to listen to lectures twice, especially when under a full course load? I can see the value, and I have no doubt it is very effective for retention, but I don't think that solution is going to work unless you have a severely limited social life, or are taking classes part-time.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Pojut]

Sorry, should have been more specific. She didn't listen to the whole thing twice, just the portions where "high-level" notes weren't enough. All in all, I would say she relistened to about 20% of the whole thing.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[wjc_25]

I don't know about the other universities mentioned, but speaking as a student at the University of Virginia, I can tell you that in cases where there are disabilities the students talk to the teachers and have an exception made. One of my classmates has a sight impairment and has to use his laptop, and professors of course allow him to use his laptop.

It's not as if every class disallows laptops - all my CS professors so far have allowed laptops, for example. In math and lit classes, not so much. It's entirely up to the individual teacher; I can think of several classes I've taken where the teacher required attendance and allowed laptops, and for that reason everyone was up on Facebook for every lecture. I can think of other classes where laptops were allowed but the class was challenging and people only used them for note-taking.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Paradigm_Complex]

I don't know about you, but myself and a few of my friends found that even though it seemed like both ways of taking notes would trigger the witless stenographer, writing by hand actually locked the information in, while computer note-taking meant you remembered little or none of it.

For me, it's the opposite. I retain things I've typed far better than anything hand-written.

I took Latin in middle school. If a student did insufficiently well, s/he was forced to hand-write the information hundreds of times, because the teacher was closed-minded enough that she believed that it helped reinforce the information for everyone. It didn't help me at all - I wasted hours hand-writing things and nearly failed the classes. Taking notes on the material taught in class by hand doesn't benefit me at all - I just end up with cramped hands, illegible scribbles I am unable to decrypt if read a week later, and no recollection of what was actually covered.

Nowadays I use a laptop to take all my notes in vim+LaTeX. The processes uses far less of my concentration, allowing more of my mental capacity to actually think about the information being taught - and I can understand my notes to review later, if I didn't absorb it all. I often don't need to though, because I was actually able to listen to the professor, and the act of typing helped get thinks to sink in.

To drill things into my mind, I use a small script I wrote to 'quiz' me on the material, which shows me something expected to jog my memory and prompts me for whatever I need to eventually know. I *type* the answer. Eventually, the act of typing a sufficient number of times is what gets it to sink in. This helps in rote-memorization classes like History, as well as more idea-centric classes like Mathematics (where you still have to memorize things - what's the formula to find the distance between a point and a plane?)

During a midterm a few weeks ago, an observant TA noticed that my hands undergo the motion of 'air-typing' when I'm thinking about a question - that action helps trigger the required memories.

Everybody's different.

If not for loud keyboards, I couldn't care less if other students are using a computer to take notes; if I'm right and the computer is a less effective tool, that hurts them, not me.

I wish more people thought like you and let me learn my own way. So long as I don't bring my Model M-esque keyboard to class, I should be free to learn the way that works best for me. The worst case scenario is I've interpreted my own learning style incorrectly and I don't benefit - it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[mediocubano]

Definitely saw this when I was in business school. A handful of students attempted to use their laptops to take notes, and the problem was trying to fit the lectures into the framework of Word, or Powerpoint. Very hard to insert diagrams (which would be a piece of cake to sketch with a pen and paper.) Also they spent probably half of their time playing with formatting, etc.

In all, it seemed that they spent so much time trying to input the information into their computer that they had no time left to actually pay attention to the lecture. They had even less time (effectively zero) to actually participate in any discussions.

Witless Stenographer is a perfect label for this.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[pikine]

I've seen insanely illegible handwritings from a student's exam, but they did not claim dysgraphia for which they would be granted the ability to use a laptop, so I graded the handwritten exam. It makes me wonder, how messy does your handwriting have to become in order to qualify as dysgraphia? Furthermore, does messy handwriting alone qualify for it? I saw a sample of dysgraphia on Wikipedia, and I'd say the dysgraphic one is still comparatively legible. My own handwriting could be worse. But the sample is also a semi-memoir of her experience, documenting the mental distress for writing by hand. Does dysgraphia qualification also require the presence of mental distress?

And do you think dysgraphia can be overcome by practice? What would it take to make calligraphy fun?

Re:Witless stenographers?

[newdsfornerds]

I agree. Something similar can happen to me when I'm studying written material. I find myself serially reading individual words rather than absorbing the ideas the sentences are supposed to convey. The lecture format sucks unless there is enough time for lots of Q & A. It's a rare professor who can make a lecture engaging, especially when it comes to technical subjects.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[racerx509]

I think it will never fly as discrimination.
If you are dyslexic, you can claim that you have a disability, and require special accommodations. This can be verified by a qualified third party, and you can then apply for an exemption to the rule (which I assume the school will grant automatically).

This is very true. I was diagnosed with dyscalculia early in my college career. Among my accomodations were a laptop computer and/or designated note taker in the classroom, as well as a calculator on any math exam and/or in class. There were a few professors who banned calculators from their classrooms, but with the accomodations, they had to allow it.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[MachDelta]

My bio prof does this. She's a nice lady but when it comes to class time she alternates between reiterating some amusing anecdote about her studies of cancer, and racing through the coursework because she's spent 20 minutes talking about her area of study. Then she asks us questions, invariably while the whole class is madly scribbling stuff down, and remarks to us that we sure are a lethargic class. ARGH!

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can type at the same speed the professor is providing the information, you're not forced to look for shortcuts, so you don't do any interpretation.

My experience is very much the opposite of this. Once I got a laptop, I no longer had to focus my energy on note taking, and instead could focus on the lecture content and interacting with the prof. When the prof finished up a point, and most of my classmates were still furiously scribbling their notes (this was 2003, so laptops weren't ubiquitous yet), I was done with the notes and was busy interpreting, contemplating, and asking questions as needed. By the time my poor classmates were done writing, they often had to start writing the clarification or insight I had just elicited from the prof.

By grad school my note taking skills were excellent and people were actually offering to buy my notes. The environment was not competitive but rather collaborative, so I shared my notes for free without regret.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Attila Dimedici]

Yes, I did have a prof that raced through the material. The solution to that is to interupt with questions from time to time (especially if you are missing things because they are going too fast). If the prof doesn't allow and/or respond to questions, complain to the Dean.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[martyros]

Stuff gets written down with little or no thought so it can be studied later.

I remember being upset at a homework question once when I was a freshman, convinced that the teacher had not covered anything like it in class. In extreme annoyance, I skimmed through my notes, to find the exact template of the problem right there, in my notebook, in my own handwriting. I had written down diagrams, equations, derivations, everything, and it had not registered in the slightest.

That was, however, an exception that proved the rule. Usually writing notes forced me to do enough processing of the lecture that I subsequently rarely needed the notes.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[mjwalshe]

this was my thought as a dyslexic - it runs in the family one of my uncles did his MA at oxford verbaly an that was back in the late 50's

Re:Witless stenographers?

[MoriT]

Dysgraphia is a neurological abnormality. I am dysgraphic and have in fact practiced calligraphy and have relatively legible handwriting. However, I spent much, much longer learning to have legible handwriting, my calligraphy looks uneven and irregular despite the hundreds of hours I've put in, and just writing a post-it note takes my full concentration and at least three times as long as it would take anyone who's brain had the pathways mine is lacking. It isn't just about mental distress, or the attractiveness of the handwriting. That's like saying someone who can read lips isn't really deaf. I learned differently than other people, put far more effort in to that than other people, and have mediocre results. That doesn't mean it can't be "fun"; I chose to put effort into producing really bad calligraphy, after all. It does mean that if you want to test my ability to compose an essay in a set amount of time, asking me to hand write it will mean you will not receive a representative product, since I will probably spend most of that time transcribing my ideas rather than composing them.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[plague3106]

I've already made it through college fine, so I need no further advice. I WAS able to go back and absorb the notes later though, so there wasn't too much to complain about.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[Monkeedude1212]

Its worth a shot though, I found it helped me a lot. Throughout Highschool me and my friends were addicted to online gaming. It was always a different game each day of the month, we were constantly up until 3 to 5 am each night. This of course took a toll on our sleep schedules. Chemistry, I loved Chem naps. Couldn't sleep if we were doing a lab but for the most part I could just put my head on my desk and be right out of it.

My parents had gotten me a 512MB MP3 player (MuVo I think?) which had a voice recorder in it. I told me prof that its unlikely my sleeping is going to change, and that I would put this voice recorder on the front desk and listen to it all later. Tell me what pages in the text book to follow along with, or I can borrow notes from someone if I need to.

She had no problem with it, and it really helped. When I'd get home from school I'd be able to put on the recording with the internet at my fingertips - That was ultimately more useful than any Textbook or notes I could jot down. If there was -ANYTHING- at all I didn't understand, the web had an explanation.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[jtownatpunk.net]

I almost never took notes in class but I don't see how writing notes makes them stick in the mind any better than typing. Heck, I once had a class with a final based entirely on the text and it was worth an absurdly high percentage of the overall grade. (Basically, do nothing all semester and ace the final and you get a B.) So I did nothing all semester then typed the entire textbook into tedit the weekend before the final and aced it. All of that worthless "typing" anchored the material in my head long enough to take the test so, clearly, typing is an effective method of imprinting information. Whether there are differences in long-term retention, I have no idea but that material was in there solid for the time that I needed it and I'm sure it would have been available indefinitely if I'd made regular use of it after the test.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

Agree, for any HARD class. E.g., upper-level undergrad and grad-level theoretic courses in your (engineering)department/major. You scribble every last greek character in every equation from the board, in a desperate attempt to try to get down every jot of information (also verbal explanations).

I always just sat there and paid attention, without being distracted from what the lecturer was saying by furiously writing it all down. Any decent professor (i.e., one whose ego isn't wrapped up in being the sole font of information needed to learn the class material) will have chosen a textbook that has the same general content as their lecture.

I found it more useful to treat the lecture as a general introduction to the material, and then go and figure out the details by reading the text and doing sample problems. Being able to "reproduce any arcane derivation on demand" may be good for passing exams, but it's not worth shit when you come up against a real-world problem that doesn't fit neatly into the categories covered in class.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[danlock4]

That sounds like an excellent way to reinforce the instructor's words, thereby enhancing learning and increasing retention and ability to relate the learned items with other concepts learned. Some would do better with it than others, but I think that, with practice (hehe, reinforcement again [practice makes perfect?]), it would benefit everyone /who has the time/ or /the alertness/ to do it. Congratulations!

Re:Witless stenographers?

[dcollins]

"Agree, for any HARD class. E.g., upper-level undergrad and grad-level theoretic courses in your (engineering)department/major. You scribble every last greek character in every equation from the board, in a desperate attempt to try to get down every jot of information (also verbal explanations)..."

I must admit, by the end of my graduate math program, I had entirely dispensed of taking any notes in class. I found it was better to sit back, be present, and follow the "big picture" of the presentation.

I dunno, maybe it wasn't a hard class. Seemed like it, though.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[mackyrae]

I'm a CS major, so I didn't even notice that those were CS analogies and just considered them normal ways of describing such things.

Re:Witless stenographers?

[ShadowRangerRIT]

You're in too deep! Get out while you still can!

This is College

[rotide]

Seeing how this is college, I'm dumbfounded by the "nannying" going on here.

The way I see it, unless laptops as a whole are distracting to _other_ students then they are nothing more than another medium to take notes on. On the other hand, if I happen to have a laptop that makes a lot of noise (intended or not) and it is distracting the professor or other students, then I see a problem.

Re:This is College

[beakerMeep]

Indeed, the professors work for the students, not vice versa. It always perplexed me why some college profs took attendance. They are there to teach not to babysit. If some schmo wants to blow his 30 grand a year tuition playing bejeweled, what does the professor care? I mean does the professor have some high score and he's hoping to eliminate the competition for the next international bejeweled tournament? Well actually, if that's the case, I guess it's ok.

Re:This is College

[DeadPixels]

Exactly! You can ban laptops if you want, but it isn't going to make students pay attention if they don't feel like it. As long as they aren't distracting other students, I don't see a problem; they're paying to be there and if they want to use a laptop, that's their business.

Re:This is College

[starcraftsicko]

Unless you are in the back row, your WoW or YouTube or Facebook (or Slashdot) are a visual distraction to _others_ even with ear buds or if muted. The "nannying" happens because you (or a meaningful number of your classmates) can't keep themselves from providing this distraction. You (they?) simply can't stop. Even now.

Re:This is College

[ShadowRangerRIT]

In four years of college, I think I had one professor take attendance, and only in a first year class. What college were you going to? As for laptops, they are a distraction to the other students, either through incessant keyboard clacking, or, if the laptop isn't in the very back row, creating a visual distraction for everyone behind them.

Re:This is College

[beakerMeep]

You sound like Alliance.

Re:This is College

[gsslay]

unless laptops as a whole are distracting to _other_ students

I think we can take it as read that that's exactly what happens. It's very hard to concentrate on a lecture when all around you resembles a gaming internet cafe. And that also applies to whoever is trying to deliver the lecture.

Re:This is College

[Angostura]

It's madness, I know. The idea that teachers might want to think about the best way to ensure that the information they are trying to impart is absorbed and retained by their students.

When I was a student, I found the best way to enjoy lectures was with my eyes closed, listening to my Walkman. I didn't disturb anyone, so I have no idea why the lecturer took exception to my stance.

Re:This is College

[bwalling]

The way I see it, unless laptops as a whole are distracting to _other_ students then they are nothing more than another medium to take notes on. On the other hand, if I happen to have a laptop that makes a lot of noise (intended or not) and it is distracting the professor or other students, then I see a problem.

I've been going back to school to get a Master's at night. It's pretty annoying that the classroom is full of kids watching TV or movies on their laptops. While I do what I can to sit near the front so that I don't have any video playing on a screen in front of me, it's not always possible. I have to leave work to get to class, so I can't just show up early enough to get in front of the TV watching idiots.

From a purely anecdotal perspective, I'd say 60-70% of laptops in the college classroom are being used for entertainment, not note taking. At the very least, I'd like to see them confined to the back few rows of the room.

Re:This is College

[starcraftsicko]

As long as they aren't distracting other students...

I think that the point here is that in many cases, they are in fact distracting other students. This doesn't mean that other students are going to make a public complaint.

I offer this analogy: "People should be able to drive as fat as they want, wherever they want, so long as they don't endanger others." OK? But sometimes simply driving fast creates the danger. And sometimes, the driver fails to notice this. For example, I think that I don't endanger anyone when I drive 60mph through university parking lots at 9AM...

So the university (or city or whatever) could wait for complaints or deaths, or they can regulate speeds. I concede that over-regulation occurs, but is the regulation itself unjustified?

Re:This is College

[mjschultz]

My guess is that the attendance is taken to given them factual numbers to point to when the student fails out of a class. When a kid's parent calls the department to complain that little Timmy is too smart to be failing out of algebra and Professor Tweed should be fired, he can say that Timmy never showed up to class.

I agree that it is ridiculous that professors take attendance, but I don't think that is the problem. It's the parents who can't let their kid deal with consequences (and to be fair, more often than not I think the parent's $30,000 is paying the tuition bill).

Re:This is College

[tophermeyer]

Seeing how this is college, I'm dumbfounded by the "nannying" going on here.

With respect friend, I'm not sure when you went to college. I graduated in 2006, "nannying" was exactly what was going on. My school was filled with kids that had graduated high school but had no idea what they wanted to do with their lives, and had no interest in growing up and being responsible. As a student that paid out a lot of money for the ability to attend those lectures, I expected that the other students in the room would show a little bit of respect to their peers. If myspace or youtube is so important that a person just can't bear to tear yourself away and be an adult for 90 minutes, they shouldn't bother coming into class. Or they should have sought out a more ADD friendly higher education option (like online universities).

Few things bothered me more than having my professors slow down their lecture or the class conversation to accommodate someone that wasn't paying full attention. Personally I found it disrespectful and selfish.

Re:This is College

[rotide]

I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree.

Most lecture halls I've ever been in were setup stadium style, this makes it very easy to see the board and the professor. Even if the person sitting "directly" in front of me (usually off to the side a tad) was playing WoW, it's still very easy to see the professor.

If this was a classroom where the open laptop partially obscures my view, I'd probably fully agree with you as it's always in your direct view. However, being off in a peripheral makes it quite easy to ignore.

I've been in classrooms in the past 10 years with other students playing games and I was able to see their screen quite easily. As long as I wasn't already distracted mentally, I never had an issue paying attention.

Re:This is College

[jandersen]

Seeing how this is college, I'm dumbfounded by the "nannying" going on here.

One of the purposes of a university is to teach students. The teaching part is important; otherwise you could just sit in the library, but teaching is (or ought to be) an interation between the teacher and students, where the teacher can respond to questions and clarify points is necessary; teaching is something the class takes part in. You can argue that the students are old enough to decide whether they want to listen; but if they don't want to take part, they can go somewhere else and play games. If the majority of a large class are not interested in taking part and just waste their time, they not only contribute to making the room cramped, they also produce an culture of "don't listen to the grey man down there" - both of which hurt everybody's ability to learn.

Re:This is College

[johndiii]

Indeed, the professors work for the students...

Not really. Professors work for the university, which sells a product to (in likely order of financial contribution, in the United States) parents of students, the American taxpayer, and the students themselves. The professors' work product is evaluated by the university - primarily by their peers, but typically with some input from students. The other source of money is contributions from alumni, which depend on their perception of the university's prestige, which may or may not be related to how well students learn.

I'm with the GP on this — if it disrupts class, then deal with that. Otherwise let it go. If a student wants to waste parental funds, that is between the student and the parents.

Re:This is College

[kainewynd2]

The way I see it, unless laptops as a whole are distracting to _other_ students then they are nothing more than another medium to take notes on. On the other hand, if I happen to have a laptop that makes a lot of noise (intended or not) and it is distracting the professor or other students, then I see a problem.

[disclaimer]: I am one of those Liberal Arts and Sciences IT people Slashdot is so thrilled to ridicule. Be prepared for a different angle![/disclaimer]

I wasn't in college all that long ago (HOLY SHIT IT'S BEEN 10 YEARS!), but during that time the initial laptop-boom was kicking off and building-wide wireless was becoming a reality. I was a fool who had a desktop in my room sitting on an actual desk where I sat and wrote things. With my fingers. At a desk. Typing. With headphones.

Now there were other people--hereafter referred to as Tools--who brought their laptops to class. These Tools would pop open their machines and make the pretense of typing away at some notes, but invariably they would forget to mute the audio during their first class and you'd hear the tell-tale AIM message received sound.

It was determined pretty quickly that laptops were not allowed out during a lecture or discussion class and I was happy for it. It is incredibly distracting when you're actively involved in a discussion or listening to a lecture that is mind-numbingly boring and there is the possibility that the person sitting next to you is not only ignoring the lesson, but having so much more fun than you. It sucks.

Given that I was in charge of all first and second tier IT at the university during that time--those levels of IT were, and still are, entirely student managed and operated--I banned laptops from training sessions and, unless running a graveyard shift at the Helpdesk, from the Helpdesk as well. Not only did comprehension go up--yes, even amongst the Computer Science majors--but customer service levels went to all-time highs and there was no more accidental cross contamination off virused machines because someone stupidly plugged their laptop into our segregated "Virus" VLAN.

So... I'm all for it, having seen the effects on fifty people myself. Kick the laptops out of the classroom... but don't expect to teach CAD or anything similar in that scenario unless you're in a lab.

Re:This is College

[jimicus]

Because there's a buffer between the student's fees and the professor's wages called the university and the university will sure as hell notice if the failure rate for that course is unusually high.

Re:This is College

[Ihmhi]

Well on the one hand, you are paying good money to learn at their institution. It shouldn't be their damn business whether or not you even show up to class, much less use a laptop to take your notes.

On the other hand, if, say, a large percentage of their students didn't graduate, I'm sure that they would have a bit of difficulty filling their roles in the following years as well as raising money for new facilities and whatnot.

It's a very fine balancing act between the students' need for freedom and the school's need to, well, survive.

Re:This is College

[rotide]

Just as an aside, analogies that try to compare "distractions" with life and death situations usually don't work, at all.

Life and death situations, such as driving 60 MPH through a parking lot can easily kill or maim many people. Playing video games and/or surfing in class is a distraction at best. One set of rules aims to save lives while the other aims to nanny a student.

Re:This is College

[onionman]

I tell my students that they can do whatever they like provided it doesn't distract others. I also don't take attendance because my students are adults and they can decide for themselves if they want to attend or not. Normally, there's a pretty high correlation between participation and final grade, but having been a student who skipped every (non-test) class meeting of Freshman Psych and still got an 'A', I'm not about to penalize students who have a better use for their time.

So, why waste your time surfing in my class when you can do it from a much more comfortable location?

Here's a hint for the rest of you who do attend class and take notes: don't write down every damn thing! Especially when a course is based from a textbook, or the notes are on-line, you should use the class time to interact with the professor. Learn during class. When the professor puts something on the board that you don't understand, don't just blindly copy it down; ask the professor to explain it. A good professor will be happy to have the interaction and will take the time to answer you. (Granted, this is much more difficult in one of those giant lecture hall settings, but you should avoid those classes anyway.)

Re:This is College

[starcraftsicko]

If you can see the screen, it is a distraction. The human eye is drawn to motion. Even in a best case scenario, your brain will have to check on your neighbor's WoW progress from time to time even if only to classify it as unimportant.

You may do a great job mentally managing these distractions. Others may be less efficient in doing this.

Just because it does not distract you does not mean that it does not distract _others_. You may not be the best person or in the best position to evaluate the distraction.

Re:This is College

[rotide]

Just to further the discussion...

So you deem motion on a laptop screen to be a distraction.

What about clicking cell phones as someone texts? Or the bright screen that bobs around as they press the buttons? Should that be banned as well since it might distract you?

How about someone whose leg always seems to bounce continuously like a nervous twitch and causes the seat to squeak slightly. Should to stop him from showing up because it distracts you?

How about someone who has one of those pencil/paper combos that seems to make the graphite squeak against the paper from time to time?

Or how about someone who wheezes? Coughs a lot? Sneezes a lot? Blows their nose a lot?

Are you in favor of banning anything that can possibly be a distraction to even one student? Even though the majority (at least in this case) are probably using the device for "pro-education" purposes?

Ok, I'll concede that those watching videos/playing games should be relegated to the back row. But banning laptops wholesale isn't the answer just because there is a _potential_ for distraction.

At least that's my opinion. And please don't take it as an attack, I just don't like the slippery slope.

Re:This is College

[Anonymous Coward]

We had a rule in one of my programming classes that if you brought a laptop, you had to sit in the back row to use it.

Which I think was a good idea.

Re:This is College

[DerekLyons]

You're suggesting it's wrong for a teacher to care about his students and their education?

Re:This is College

[starcraftsicko]

Agreed, but the life and death wasn't the point. Regulation was the point. Over-regulation sucks. The question is whether the fact of regulation is reasonable.

You've indicated that life and death obviously merit regulation. And you've said that distraction might be just cause.

Banning screens is regulation. Maybe it is over-regulation. So what would be reasonable?

Re:This is College

[penguin_dance]

If they're going to demand that I take pen and paper notes, then I demand the professor actually TEACH the class instead of subbing it to a graduate student while s/he works on his/her pet project.

Re:This is College

[Asclepius99]

I've found (from attending two schools myself due to transferring and from friends at other schools) that professors taking attendance is fairly common. I don't know how new it is, but a good number of them are doing it. I've had everything from miss three classes and you drop by a letter grade to you must show up for at least 50% of classes or you fail. I've also had a good number of professors that don't take any attendance at all.

Re:This is College

[Khazunga]

If something moving on a screen a row or two below your position is cause for distraction, I'd wager you have the wrong professors. Good teachers grab the students' attention and only let go after an hour or an hour and a half. I had one MBA professor that could keep the entire class engaged for a whole 5 hour period (with a 15min break at mid-time), but that's definitely an outlier.

Re:This is College

[Asclepius99]

I've had a lecture set up in stadium style seating where the guy in front of my enjoyed playing video games instead of paying attention to the lecture. Having bright flashing colors and motion slightly down and to the right of your field of vision is a bit of a distraction. Now it didn't go as far as stopping me from taking notes and I still got an A. So it certainly wasn't a situation where it affected me a great but it was slightly annoying. Not sure if I ban laptops entirely because of it, I guess that would depend on how many student complaints I'd received about it.

Re:This is College

[starcraftsicko]

Distraction is difficult to regulate. There is little moral hazard in regulating _optional_ distraction. Wheezy, twitchy, coughy, and squeaky - those are not optional. Bright lights and moving pictures - are generally optional.

Over-regulation sucks.

Restricting users because of the actions of abusers sucks.

But the alternative is to try to just punish the abusers. There really is no slick way to do this. We could post observers. We could wait for complaints. We could reward the complainers with cash. We could make it policy to use the liquid nitrogen ploy on the laptop of anyone who was complained about. The slope here is really slippery. Send them to a gulag / re-education camp?

Full disclosure: I am employed by an institution that has banned personal electronics in some spaces. Doing this is simply more effective than the prior selective enforcement policy. Effective # popular of course.

College students have at least the theoretical ability to transfer to schools that allow WoW in lecture halls. If they don't have the grades or the motivation to transfer, but can't get over the moral outrage at being subject to rules, they can always explore what true restrictions look like in the dreaded workplace.

Re:This is College

[Asclepius99]

Just do point out your thing on cell phones, I don't know a single professor that doesn't get bothered by students blatantly texting or playing on their cell phones during class.

Re:This is College

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, the professors work for the students, not vice versa. It always perplexed me why some college profs took attendance. They are there to teach not to babysit. If some schmo wants to blow his 30 grand a year tuition playing bejeweled, what does the professor care? I mean does the professor have some high score and he's hoping to eliminate the competition for the next international bejeweled tournament? Well actually, if that's the case, I guess it's ok.

Tell that to the jock who sued the college because the professor didn't make sure he was getting an education. ... Not that I support his case.

As for no laptops, if the professor wants it, I see no issue with it as long as the user isn't disabled & needs the unit.

Re:This is College

[ebuck]

It's all administrative. The prof takes attendance because the dean wants attendance so he can go to his supervisors arguing that he needs more money for his department so he can expand his little piece of the kingdom. If the dean doesn't play the game, money flows elsewhere in the University and his department suffers by not playing such a silly game.

Re:This is College

[Ismene]

From a purely anecdotal perspective, I'd say 60-70% of laptops in the college classroom are being used for entertainment, not note taking. At the very least, I'd like to see them confined to the back few rows of the room.

I'm a college librarian - I teach research classes and am always out in the computer lab section of our library. I'd venture to say that 90% of ALL computers at a college or university are being used for: Facebook and YouTube. I have students who can't get a computer to type out an essay because the computer lab is full (and I'm not even exaggerating) of students checking their facebook. (We can't ban facebook because they might need it for "educational purposes"). We get a report here that tells us essentially where all our bandwidth is going: Facebook, Youtube, Google Video, Myspace.

I teach in a computer lab. As funny / not terribly boring as my lecture is (I mean, really, the topic is research, I can't make it THAT thrilling) - I simply can't compete with texting / facebook, etc. And the computers FACE me. I find it distracting for me, the lecturer. When I do say something like "Oh, I can see you are telling all your friends how great the library is on Facebook", they all look at me like "What?? You know what facebook is??" (Yes, my dear students, I'm only thirty... not dead.)

Re:This is College

[Anonymous Coward]

As a laptop as entertainment user I whole-heartedly agree. Which is why if I choose to use my laptop I take back row seats so as not to distract people.

Re:This is College

[faboo]

At least as it was explained to me at the community college I attended in highschool, some kinds of grants and financial aid (quite likely including the sort I was provided to go there) require the student to attend a certain number of classes per term. So, pretty much every class took attendance, even if the prof didn't care.

Re:This is College

[Paradigm_Complex]

I've been going back to school to get a Master's at night. It's pretty annoying that the classroom is full of kids watching TV or movies on their laptops. While I do what I can to sit near the front so that I don't have any video playing on a screen in front of me, it's not always possible. I have to leave work to get to class, so I can't just show up early enough to get in front of the TV watching idiots.

From a purely anecdotal perspective, I'd say 60-70% of laptops in the college classroom are being used for entertainment, not note taking. At the very least, I'd like to see them confined to the back few rows of the room.

So explain to the professor your situation. You have a difficult time focusing with laptops in front of you, and you can't get to class early enough to guarantee yourself a seat in the front row because of work. Request that a seat in the front row be reserved for you. If you honestly expect the professor would consider allocating seats for all the laptop users, surely s/he'd be willing to do so for just you.

Don't take out your frustration over your own learning problems on others. Many of us learn better with laptops. Even by your own admission, 30~40% of the laptop users in class aren't using the laptop for entertainment. Just because we're a minority doesn't mean we should be forced to sit in the back of the bus^H^H^Hroom.

Re:This is College

[kaiser423]

Because.......colleges are ALWAYS ranked on the percentage of students that make it through. "Bad" colleges don't graduate as high of a percentage of their students, obviously because they don't have proper facilities, tutoring, etc. Whereas "Good" colleges graduate nearly everyone; proving that they have the capability to teach the students enough to make it through their tough coursework.

Every department in every University has this metric, and it's highly focused upon. If you're failing people you accepted, it's viewed as a big flaw of the department; why accept them if you're going to fail such a high number?

Of course, what happens is that the pressure rolls down hill and the professors get lots and lots pressure to push that curve down so that the vast majority can pass. Obviously, if the majority of the students are just playing bejeweled and not learning anything, then that's what the University is going to graduate.

Professors don't want to graduate students like that, so they're pushing back. They want their department to stay top-notch and graduate individuals whom know their respective field.

Re:This is College

[seventyfive75]

Agreed. This is why we have mandatory attendance and this is why we have distracted students. If I have a professor that would rather do research than teach and subsequently give a crappy lecture, why do i want to show up? I don't want him to waste my time but mandatory attendance might force me to go. If I have a laptop at least I can be productive during those 2 hours that would otherwise be wasted. It's all a big scam involving teachers and students being in a room they don't want to be in.

Re:This is College

[Snorpus]

Indeed, the professors work for the students, not vice versa. It always perplexed me why some college profs took attendance. They are there to teach not to babysit. If some schmo wants to blow his 30 grand a year tuition playing bejeweled, what does the professor care? I mean does the professor have some high score and he's hoping to eliminate the competition for the next international bejeweled tournament? Well actually, if that's the case, I guess it's ok.

Because in many cases, the schmo is getting 50-80% of the cost of their schooling paid for by the taxpayers. Plus those that play games, use Facebook, etc. are the first to complain when they don't get the grade they feel "entitled" to..

Re:This is College

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an issue of respect. Why are you paying 30 grand a year to leave an empty seat in front of me, or even worse, to ignore me while we are in the same room.

If you paid me 100 dollars and hour to help you learn calculus, but then pulled out your laptop when we met up and ignored me the entire time, I would not meet with you a second time. I don't care if you want to pay me. I have self respect, and refuse to be treated this way.

I have no issue that professors ask the same. They dedicate their lives to these subjects, they prepare classes to help others learn what they themselves are passionate about. Then they walk into a room and are outright ignored by the people they are trying to teach. I do not blame them in the least if they find this a personal affront.

People no longer respect teachers, for whatever reason. It's a cultural problem in the United States that we desperately need to fix if we want to see an intelligent populous.

Re:This is College

[Belial6]

Don't forget to add super hot college chicks to the list of distractions....

Re:This is College

[skroops]

I've had a handful of classes at three schools that took attendance, and it did not work that way. Attendance was a calculated part of the grade and was recorded "just in case". I often lost points because I did not attend every lecture (as is my choice), despite having 80-100% on every assignment. One thing teachers are doing nowadays is using "clickers", small remote controls that wirelessly record answers to in-class questions. They are not attendance per se, but as the correct answer is irrelevent to scoring, and getting the points requires being in class, it is a de facto attendance monitor. I have seen this in two schools. Interestingly in the first class I had it in it was at least of some benefit, the teacher would put up a short question and then allow students who had answered in the two majority choices to defend their responses, and would therefore find what part of the concept the students were not understanding. But the one I have now is pretty much using it to waste time and make sure that we are present to have our time wasted. Leaving 10 minutes sometimes to answer simple problems and then moving right on to the next one with no explanation or useful discussion.

Re:This is College

[six11]

Indeed, the professors work for the students

The professors work for the university.

The university gets a substantial portion of their funding from tuition, it is true, but also from grants, endowments, and sometimes other for-profit ventures the university has set up (e.g. athletics, museums, adult continuing ed, etc.), subject to budgetary bucketing. Grants are based on the faculty's ability to turn out quality research. Endowments are based on donations by past graduates (which is often dominated by a small but rich segment).

The attitude that professors work for students is pretty destructive. Take, for example, your average lecture-hall class (Calculus, programming languages, intro to theater, etc.), and assume there are maybe 100 students attending. Does this mean that for this class, the professor has 100 bosses? 100 bosses to manage one employee? How could that professor possibly be expected to maintain standards of quality with 100 contending perspectives of how things ought to be run? If professors work for the students, the inmates are running the asylum.

None of this is to say the professor should be indifferent to the needs of students. But the attitude of "X works for Y" implies that X must do what Y wants, and this is completely backwards. I think a healthier attitude is that students and professors agree that an academic course is an opportunity for students to learn something, and the professor will try their best to make that happen as long as the students do as well. Profs are not babysitters, and they are most certainly not employees of the students.

Re:This is College

[Tibor the Hun]

I don't want to sound insensitive but being a Master at night is only advantageous over the Master at day, or even a full Masters, only in Transylvania.

Re:This is College

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with the whole situation is much more than "nannying," its a fundamental issue with how certain classes are taught. My laptop/cell phone use in class inevitably has a very clear cause-and-effect structure. If I'm in a class that I feel obligated to go to, because of attendance taking or required quizes or "this material isn't in the book!" but the class is still horribly boring, I'll end up trying to tune out the crap and then participate when it's useful; I end up playing tetris in my matlab class mor often than not.

On the other hand, when the professor takes away the need/ability to screw around on computers by actually changing the content and presentation of lectures, then this is a null argument. For example, in a film class that I'm currently taking, my laptop is indispensable for the wikipedia entries on movies mentioned, for taking quick notes, and for the ability to take notes in the dark (while a movie is playing.) Also, this class is structured in a way that everyone in the class is always engaged.

Banning laptops is a stopgap to the larger issue of inefficient classes and lectures, just like banning graphing calculators on tests (oh no you can put notes on the calculator! we can't have that!). Make lectures engaging, focus tests on understanding and application as opposed to rote memorization, and problem solved. I've been in classes where it's been done.

Re:This is College

[JimFive]

Your argument is a textbook example of the slippery slope fallacy. You presume that no middle ground can be found between banning laptops and "banning every possible distraction"

As an above thread discusses, the question is really one of how much regulation is approprate. The professor would certainly not put up with a bunch of people in the back shouting to each other. And we would expect that E would put up with the occasional sneeze. So the line is somewhere in the middle and the question is where do laptops fit on the continuum.

I think that a continuous distraction of nearby students would qualify for a ban and playing games on a laptop would certainly fit that description, while taking notes probably doesn't.

If the professor has determined by observation that laptops are more often a distraction than a benefit then E might as well ban them.

Also, if you're playing games on your laptop why did you bother to go to class? I know that I skipped out on classes that weren't useful to me all the time. If the professor is banning laptops AND grading on attendance then the professor is a fool.
--
JimFive

Re:This is College

[DaFallus]

On a somewhat related note, just yesterday I noticed that the rooms in which my grad school classes are taught have a power strip tucked away at the front of each row (basically a long table with attached chairs on a swivel base), with the exception of the first three. At first I thought this was simply because of budgeting or laziness, but the more I think about it the more I wonder if it is to discourage people with laptops from sitting in the first three rows. Of course with iPhones and netbooks getting more than three hours of battery life it probably isn't as effective at dissuading Facebook and YouTube addicts from sitting up front, but I'm still intrigued as to whether or not this is the actual reason.

Re:This is College

[goose-incarnated]

I disagree - for the same reason that flashing banner ads get blocked within my browser even though they don't cover the material. Just because some flashing screen is not actually blocking your view of the board doesn't mean that it isn't distracting.

Re:This is College

[LordVader717]

It's not exactly as if the professor considers students as clients either. He is employed by the university, and as part of that he is also required to do some lectures. He may get rewarded if he gives a lot of effort, but a worrying amount of professors seem to be totally disinterested in the quality of their classes, especially considering that there are hardly any consequences for not giving a shit.

Wait....

[DavidR1991]

How someone learns is their own business, not the lecturer's. That's why it's a lecture and not a 'class'. The lecturer doesn't (or shouldn't) take personal interest in how you understand, they expect you to absorb and understand of your own accord. If you just type everything up and learn later on, that's your business.

I have this issue with some mathematics of comp-sci classes at the moment. I'm OK at maths, but I find I can't really use what I've been taught or contribute to discussion/examples until I've tried out [whatever technique/method we're learning] on my own in my own time. So I do something kind of similar to the "mindless stenography" - in the lecture at least. What I do outside of the lecture is what counts.

Re:Wait....

[bwalling]

It's pretty annoying when someone in front of you busts out a laptop and starts watching a movie. It's much harder to pay attention to the lecture when there's something more interesting going on. At the very least, they should confine laptop usage to the back rows.

Re:Wait....

[gravos]

Agreed. I have a few professors that have tried this stunt and I'll let them have it if their class is super-interesting, but if I'm ever bored or have to sit through material I already understand for an hour while I could be working, I lower their rating at the end.

Re:Wait....

[Greymane]

Actually, professors are graded on the success of their students. If they perceive that the laptop/cell phone is preventing the students from learning, it is in their best interest to block their use during class. Also, why would you be attending class, only to ignore what is being discussed?

Re:Wait....

[Anonymous Coward]

Why go to the lecture then?

If you're required to, switch to a university that doesn't treat you like a child.

Re:Wait....

[Garwulf]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

1. A lecture IS a type of class.

2. The best teaching professors are the ones who take a personal interest in the success of their students.

So, while you are correct that your own learning style is your own business, complaining about a professor actually being good is a bit on the stupid side - particularly when they're trying to keep students from proverbially shooting themselves in the foot.

Re:Wait....

[bigdavex]

How someone learns is their own business, not the lecturer's. That's why it's a lecture and not a 'class'. The lecturer doesn't (or shouldn't) take personal interest in how you understand, they expect you to absorb and understand of your own accord. If you just type everything up and learn later on, that's your business.

My opinion is that a lecture is an innefficient way to transfer knowledge and frankly I don't understand why we do so much of it. If the students are passive, then the lecture is like a book or movie but with added logistics, cost, and wasted time. The professor in the article wants to run a class.

Re:Wait....

[Anonymous Coward]

"How someone learns is their own business, not the lecturer's. That's why it's a lecture and not a 'class'"

Exactly. Not learning by playing games during a lecture is functionally the same as not showing up at all. So what's next, the banning of "not showing up"?

Re:Wait....

[AusIV]

Mindless stenography (which is what the OP admits to doing) is hardly ignoring what is being taught. It implies taking notes that don't really stick at the time, but that doesn't mean you don't have them to refer to later. It's quite different from browsing facebook or slashdot during class.

I got a laptop my sophomore year in college, and started using it to take notes in all my classes (even in the math classes I used LaTeX markup for taking notes). I didn't always get a great grasp of the concepts during the lecture, but in general it was no worse than if I'd been taking notes by hand, plus I'd have much better notes to refer to later (not to mention searchable notes).

Also, I'm not sure where you get the idea that professors are graded on the success of their students. At my university professors are graded on the quality of their research and the quantity of their publications. A crappy teacher can get tenure if they do good research, and a great teacher can be denied tenure if they don't get published enough. I saw it happen both ways during my four years as an undergrad.

Re:Wait....

[Garwulf]

It has to do with practicality. You've got limited numbers of professors, and huge amounts of students. For some general courses, packing 200 students into a lecture hall is about the only way to cover the material.

When it comes to more specific courses, where you're only going to get 20 students anyway, a seminar format works better.

And yes, I'm a grad student.

Re:Wait....

[Anonymous Coward]

There should be no lectures in a mathematics/comp-sci class. It sounds useless to me...I had lectures/labs with a circuits class...I went to the lecture twice until I obtained copies of notes from a friend who attended the class a couple of years earlier...They were exactly the same. I couldn't understand why we were paying this lecturer? Why didn't they just publish his notes and sell that instead? It would have saved a lot of people time in school. He would actually show up 10 minutes early and begin writing the notes so I could never keep up and still have my notes legible. Not having a discussion section for the class was absurd. There was no book for the class. I wish more students would explain his/her classroom experiences with his/her parents/school administration. I'm not sure how everyone else fared in school, but my experience left me feeling cheated out of a bunch of money. I received a degree which got me a job (no help from the school on this) but I feel a lot of it was done by myself. What I did pay for was a joke for the most part...

Re:Wait....

[Atraxen]

Do you recall ever being given a blurb in a syllabus that strongly suggests that the optimal approach to learning in a class is to:
- read the materials before class (even a cursory read will do)
- come to class to gain connections, context, and detail for the more subtle points
- study after class to do the 'heavy lifting' of mastering the details?
Following that approach may help you with the "can't really use what I've been taught or contribute to discussion/examples until I've tried out [whatever technique/method we're learning] on my own in my own time" issue.

It's a lecture, and not a class, because with large dining halls, a fleet of academic/social/athletic buses, computer labs that require constant updating, etc., most campus administrations have moved to larger-sized intro-level courses and reserve the good instructor:student ratios for higher level courses (where the effort will support their discipline's students) rather than using scarce resources on intro/gen-ed classes. That's why it's a 'lecture', and not a 'class'. However, most of your profs have made a major commitment to educating (take hard science faculty - they choose beginning salaries in the $40k-50k range, rather than $120k+). Trying to maximize your learning gains IS the prof's business, actually (in the business/career sense), along with using the rest of their hours to contribute to the field.

The good (and still energetic) faculty try to offset these large-sized classes by using approaches that try to build back in some of the in-the-moment feedback from a small-class setting - both for the students and themselves. e.g. That's one of the things we're trying to do when we have you use those 'clickers'. For many of us, it's the reason for online homework systems - not because we're lazy, as we're often portrayed, but because we see the same common mistakes over and over and these systems do an improvingly-passing job of giving feedback as you're learning. We try to spur on classroom interaction. Are we always successful? Nope - and the still-energetic faculty also have to overcome the difficulty of learning this trade (teaching the highest-level classes) IN ADDITION to being a top-tier participant in their field. (Those who can, do, those who can try to do everything well at the expense of a life and sleep, teach.)

Why do I keep referring to 'energetic' faculty? Because, as time goes on it's simply too draining to fight the room full of 50/130 students staring at their screens. Seeing solitaire cards (or worse...) reflected back throughout the room. And not interacting/participating/responding to your efforts to reclaim the small-class opportunities for them. You see, those students on their laptops, the ones tuned-out, the ones 'showing up' in body, but not caring about the class - they're the control rods in a reactor. And by inserting them in the classroom, it has the same effect - it kills any amplification you get from having many minds in a room together, and reduces the classroom into a YouTube video - but there's now actual YouTube videos in the room that have skateboarding dogs, and stoichiometry can't compete with that for many people.

So, it's a negative feedback loop - you complain that the class is pointless, so you entertain yourself instead. Blunting any efforts on the part of the prof to improve the experience for yourself and those around you, and make it NOT pointless. The prof burns more hours/energy trying to overcome this. Finally, many simply give up and give over-rehearsed slides/monologues to the large classes, and save their energy for the 10 person majors-only class that really digs in with you, and feeds off of one another to construct a deeper knowledge of the material than any of them had from the textbook alone.

Yeah, feel free to roll your eyes at this - to say that no (or not enough) profs try as hard as I'm claiming. Whatever - you can pick it apart point-by-point, and we can have a running text battle for weeks! The big idea is: this is the view p

Well...

[scross]

I bet there's someone in a lecture reading this right now.

Re:Well...

[dazjorz]

I guess you're right, then... *stares at blackboard for five seconds* naah, on to Slashdotting

Re:Well...

[dtl]

Nah...

I'm giving the lecture.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, hi =]

Re:Well...

[mundanetechnomancer]

i am, i also take great notes on my laptop, and get some of the highest grades in this class

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse yet, it's the professor.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that's me. Then again, I'm a lecturer...

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet there's someone in a lecture reading this right now.

Yep :)

If 75% of the courses I'm forced to take weren't completely useless and total bull shit (Human Communication Disorders? I'm a Computer Science major...) I would gladly pay attention. I do very well and learn what I find interesting, which is what I'm studying, but I'm sorry, I'm not going to pay attention to every detail the professor spits out in my History of Japan class.

Liberal education requirements force students to take courses in fields they have no interest in whatsoever.

good move

[nerdyalien]

I am a TA and I attended a math tutorial class as an observer earlier today. I was sitting in the last row. I saw one or two guys with laptop open, playing first-person shooting games.

When I attended university as a freshmen 8 years ago, laptops are still clunky and not easy to carry around like netbooks. So somewhat we were forced to take down notes by hand.

In practical lab classes like signal processing, in my day we had to manually copy the signal traces on analogue oscilloscope to the lab notebook. But now, with camera phones, its a matter of taking a snap.

I am not against new technology. But technology that hinders the education.. should be kept outside classroom!

Re:good move

[Anonymous Coward]

When I attended university as a freshmen 8 years ago, laptops are still clunky and not easy to carry around like netbooks. So somewhat we were forced to take down notes by hand.

Good point. Taking notes by hand doesn't automatically improve your grammatical skills neither.

Re:good move

[ElectricTurtle]

Technology does not hinder education, people hinder themselves. Tools are amoral. The have no character, no conscience. Those people you observed were not the captives of their computers, forced to play games. They chose to do that, and they are adults, responsible for their decisions and their outcomes. It is not up to professors to save people from themselves. Laptops improved my efficacy in both high school and college, if their use diminished others' efficacy, it is up to those people to restrain themselves, rather than indirectly causing my own efficacy to be reduced. If they fail from a lazy and deficient character, they have punished themselves. There is no need to punish or restrain others without problems for the mistakes of those with problems.

Re:good move

[mcgrew]

But technology that hinders the education.. should be kept outside classroom!

That's what grades are for. The guys playing FPSs today would have been reading LOTR or Playboy in class back in my day. The only one that's being hurt is the student who isn't paying attention, whether it's an FPS or titties. It's no skin off my nose if the guy next to me flunks the class, in fact that's one less competetitor for a job after graduation.

Re:good move

[kainewynd2]

I completely agree. So far the comments here are very much what I would expect. 'Let everyone learn in their own style,' 'The Professor is an egotistical twit,' 'It's the teacher's fault for not being enthralling enough,' etc.

When it comes down to it, this isn't high school anymore and many of the topics you learn in college are NOT FUN TO LEARN. They are boring as hell, but incredibly useful. That coupled with the fact that most of the time you are half asleep and would die for something else to do and allowing a distraction like a laptop or even a cell phone becomes a really horrible idea.

Given the option of learning about international trade routes during the 18th century or playing Unreal with my slacker friends back in the dorm and it would have been an easy choice. The kicker here is that I *loved* the class, but hated that part, regardless of how important it was to the overall class.

Allowing me the option to fully tune out would have been a mistake, regardless of how much of a blessing it would have been at the time.

Re:good move

[ElectricTurtle]

You want others to save you from yourself, at the cost of the freedom of your peers who may not share your deficiencies. How noble. No doubt you love the trend government has taken over the last few decades.

Re:good move

[kainewynd2]

Uhhh... what? Who modded this guy up?

Maybe you've forgotten the fact that a classroom is an autocracy, not a democracy? Why don't you go back into a classroom, stand up in the middle of the lecture and ask everyone to do anything.

Since I mentioned the word "autocracy" maybe you'll now call me a Nazi sympathizer? Go ahead, it carries the same weight.

Take your strawman argument elsewhere.

Re:good move

[ElectricTurtle]

This is not a strawman argument. It is the ethical core of what you are saying.

"Allowing me the option to fully tune out would have been a mistake" == "You want others to save you from yourself, at the cost of the freedom of your peers who may not share your deficiencies."

You are assuming everybody shares your deficiencies, shares them equally, and that they all need to be controlled because you feel you need to be controlled.

You're conflating systems of rule with freedom or lack thereof. This is false, and the real strawman in the room. If a democracy through tyranny of the majority decides x, y, z freedoms are denied, that doesn't make it less democratic, just less free. If an autocracy decides x, y, z freedoms are granted, that doesn't make it less autocratic, just more free. These systems don't decide freedom or lack inherently (except where suffrage and other inclusions are concerned), they only describe the structure from which authority to grant or deny freedoms proceeds.

I do not deny that a professor is an autocrat and can decide the terms under which his class is conducted (within rational limits and subject to review and redress through the established administrative hierarchy that is ultimately responsible to the students as paying consumers of a service). That does not mean that the reasoning cannot be questioned, and it certainly does not mean that the ethical analysis of other students or their anecdotal experiences are automatically correct and should be utilized as guiding principles!

Please take political science again, and a course in logic while you're at it.

Re:good move

[kainewynd2]

Sorry, must have missed that part while I was playing Counter Strike during class...

Re:good move

[Anonymous Coward]

If you find things you're learning in college "boring", maybe you took the wrong classes...

Re:good move

[Vanderhoth]

When it comes down to it, this isn't high school anymore and many of the topics you learn in college are NOT FUN TO LEARN. They are boring as hell, but incredibly useful. That coupled with the fact that most of the time you are half asleep and would die for something else to do and allowing a distraction like a laptop or even a cell phone becomes a really horrible idea.

Wow, did you pick the wrong area of education. Sure sometimes you have to do stuff you don't like, but there is almost always a way to make things more interesting.

As an example in my first year of CS I didn't really find linear algebra, discrete mathematics, algorithms or calculus as intense as playing WoW, but I was able to make it interesting by learning how to apply what I was learning to a homemade graphics engine... Okay, discrete mathematics wasn't fun, but it is useful.

Maybe I'm an oddity, but my interest extend outside CS so when I was given chances to take courses like Accounting, Management, Chemistry, Philosophy, Political Science, etc... I was ecstatic.

High school is boring, you're forced to take the same generic classes as everyone else that may or may not apply to your interest or hopeful profession. University is where you get to make your own choices, you choose what to be educated in and you choose the electives that can be outside your choosen field that interest you.

Re:good move

[Duradin]

If there's any labs now, or in the future, based on the information that is being willfully ignored it doesn't just hurt the ignoramus, it hurts anyone that gets stuck with them.

Get a group project where the workload is supposed to be manageable with the 4 people in the group but then have 1-3 of them turn out to be dead weight (and not be honest about what they aren't getting done) and their not paying attention in class sure as hell will affect you.

Re:good move

[Anonymous Coward]

I took most of my notes in college using a PDA with a fold-out keyboard. This was nice because I could fit them both in my pockets, and PDAs are not nearly so entertaining as laptops are. I could get my notes down then review them later from a coffee shop or wherever.

Re:good move

[TerranFury]

Tools are amoral. The have no character, no conscience.

I kind of like this worldview; the belief in personal responsibility I think improves behavior. But one thing I find interesting is the amount of research indicating that we might not be as "in control" as we like to think we are; psychologists of a certain school call this the "fundamental attribution error." The basic conclusion is that the situation plays a much, much larger role in determining people's actions than who the people themselves are. Applied to the laptop issue, this would mean that perhaps the situation of being in the classroom with your laptop in front of you is more important in determining what you do than are any individual variations in self-control. In other words the laptop isn't neutral; it creates a situation in which people typically react in one of a few ways.

Still, from a rights perspective it may not be the professor's job to prevent people from putting themselves into bad situations. That sometimes people actually do use laptops or tablets to take notes would tend to reinforce this view.

Re:good move

[ElectricTurtle]

The laptop does not 'create'. The user creates the situation. It's not as though the student comes into a classroom, sits down, and BAM! Out of nowhere a laptop appears, and the student is then reduced by having it there out of no personal initiative. No, the student brings the laptop. If that creates a negative situation for them, they must recognize it and stop bring it or suffer the consequences of their actions and choices.

I'm not disagreeing with your premise that the presence of a thing may intrinsically alter behavior, but I do disagree that in this scenario that applies, because that presence is as controlled by the student as the interaction with the thing (transferring that control away from the student to 'protect' those that 'need protecting' (from themselves) while harming those that don't is pure paternalism and encourages the abdication of personal responsibility to exterior control). Also, while presence may in the abstract increase the likelihood of use, that does not absolve a user of responsibility nor does it transfer the responsibility of use to the object making it moral in any way.

Re:good move

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

I'm a first year student at RIT. Of course it would be completely absurd to ban laptops in a school like this, but here's my thought on the matter: if you want to screw yourself out of your education, do it. Yay, more job opportunities for me. A fellow named Darwin called it "natural selection."

I spent the entire "Cyber Self Defense" (in other words, cyberbullshit) class first quarter playing SuperTux on my netbook-from-before-the-netbook-era. Pulled off an A in the class simply because I gave the politically correct answers to all the test questions (thankfully they didn't try to talk about copyright law, the DMCA, what have you), shat out a paper with a ridiculously oversimplified topic, and in general made it look like I was participating. In reality, I didn't give two shits about the class, and I already knew the stuff. The kicker was attendance credit, which we were told would make or break our grade.

The point is, did I master the material so that I might be better prepared for future classes? Yup. So as long as I'm not being disruptive to others, who is being harmed here? I'm an adult, and should be trusted to make judgments as to whether a certain behavior will be dangerous to my academic success or not. If I consistently make the wrong decision, I should deal with the consequences for it: trouble getting a co-op/first job, disfavor in selection processes for future elective classes, et cetera.

At the same time, all three of my math classes thus far have seen the extensive use of my computer for note-taking purposes. In classes where I need to learn, it's my right hand; in classes I don't need to pay attention to, it keeps me from dozing off (sometimes, at least).

As a professor... if a student was disrupting the class for others, I'd ask them to leave the class, and after three or four episodes I'd probably fail them for the course. But if they're only hurting themselves, who am I to stop them?

Re:good move

[kainewynd2]

Granted, but are you telling me that every day you showed up with a smile, a polished apple for the teacher and an unquenchable desire to learn?

Maybe you did and I'm the weird one, but I *loved* 95% of my classes and I still found myself dozing every now and then. I find it much easier to stay awake when my fight-or-flight instinct is running wild...

Re:good move

[Vanderhoth]

I didn't bring apples, I think they're unsanitary to carry around and eat without washing. I brought tangerines.

I'm pretty sure I'm a minority. I love to learn stuff anything I can get my hands/eyes on so I almost never found classes boring. I did however wonder why so many others spent so much time sleeping. I always figured it was because they spent too much time partying and not drinking enough coffee.

I see your point though. There have been classes that dispute my greatest interest in the material the profs. would literally bore me to tears.

I had one class (communications) were a bunch of my friends and I got together and every week only one of us would go to class and take notes, we'd meet later and have a study group to copy the notes and work on assignments/projects. It was mostly about writing resumes, letters and learning to properly shake hands. The things you learn in high school, but it was a required course for Com. Sci. students. The prof sucked goat cheese; if you did an assignment you got 100% on it regardless of how badly you did it.

Re:good move

[kainewynd2]

I see your point though. There have been classes that dispute my greatest interest in the material the profs. would literally bore me to tears.

Yeah, that's where I'm coming from. I spent most of my time in one of three places: a history class (of some sort), an english class (of some sort) or managing the first and second tier IT services at the University.

I always figured it was because they spent too much time partying and not drinking enough coffee.

I didn't party until my senior year--and then only on Saturdays--and I didn't start drinking coffee until I hit the work force after college (bad timing on my part). That said, I ran what ended up being a six year long D&D campaign (started my freshman year and ended a year before I left the area; we continued playing for two years after graduation) sometimes twice a week. Our game nights usually started at 5PM and went until 5AM.

I'm pretty sure that is why I was always so damn tired... :p

Re:good move

[newcastlejon]

When it comes down to it, this isn't high school anymore and many of the topics you learn in college are NOT FUN TO LEARN. They are boring as hell, but incredibly useful. That coupled with the fact that most of the time you are half asleep and would die for something else to do and allowing a distraction like a laptop or even a cell phone becomes a really horrible idea.

Speak for yourself! In high school I sat there bored because I was forced to learn about subjects that had neither practical nor any interest at all, I came to university and chose a subject that I found interesting. Calculus may have been dry and mechanics may have been (still is) difficult but they're both still interesting. If anything, the only part so far that has bored me has been the 'Professional Development' BS that businesses want us to learn: seems like everyone has to have the same "we're all special" wishy-washy, touchy-feely PHB mindset.

My attitude is if you don't find it interesting then why are you studying it? If you're doing a degree simply because you want a well-paid job out of it then you can just fuck off to the Business/Law school with the rest of them*. Art students may be a bit flakey, but at least they're there because they enjoy the subject.

*My apologies to people who are actually interested in law, but you seem to be surrounded by utter cocks and it's hard to tell you apart. (Even if you aren't wearing Ug boots or a body warmer/plaid combo) //

Re:good move

[Doctor Faustus]

That coupled with the fact that most of the time you are half asleep and would die for something else to do and allowing a distraction like a laptop or even a cell phone becomes a really horrible idea.
No, that distraction keeps you at only half-asleep, vs. all the way asleep.

Games are a bad idea, though, unless they're turn-based.

Re:good move

[kainewynd2]

My attitude is if you don't find it interesting then why are you studying it?

I agree. I didn't say that I didn't find the international trade routes of the 18th century world interesting, I said that I found learning about them boring. I wanted to learn. I needed to learn. But I would have been much more tempted to do something else *in addition to* trying to learn during those classes with the excuse, "I can multitask..."

Calculus may have been dry and mechanics may have been (still is) difficult but they're both still interesting. If anything, the only part so far that has bored me has been the 'Professional Development' BS that businesses want us to learn: seems like everyone has to have the same "we're all special" wishy-washy, touchy-feely PHB mindset.

So you *never* do anything else in class then? Always on the up-and-up with the note taking and attention giving? it kind of sounds like you are currently in college and--if you are in the US, which I would bet you are from your preferred profanities--then there is a good chance you are in class, going to class, or coming from class.

Since you only take classes that you could never find boring, I imagine that the rant above *must* have been posted during the latter two options... no way you posted during class.

Right?

Re:good move

[mackyrae]

If the teacher doesn't make it any *more* fun to learn, what good's it going to do? Fine, instead of zoning out staring at my laptop, I'll zone out staring at that funny bit of plaster in the corner or looking out the window.

Re:good move

[newcastlejon]

My attitude is if you don't find it interesting then why are you studying it?

I agree. I didn't say that I didn't find the international trade routes of the 18th century world interesting, I said that I found learning about them boring. I wanted to learn. I needed to learn. But I would have been much more tempted to do something else *in addition to* trying to learn during those classes with the excuse, "I can multitask..."

It would seem to be a matter of willpower. Depending on your degree there may well be parts of it that are simply just dull. I'm lucky in this respect because I chose my degree solely because I thought it was an interesting and engaging subject - I've always been fascinated in how things work and how they're put together. Time has taught me that I really can't multitask but I don't try to anyway because I enjoy studying engineering so much.

Calculus may have been dry and mechanics may have been (still is) difficult but they're both still interesting. If anything, the only part so far that has bored me has been the 'Professional Development' BS that businesses want us to learn: seems like everyone has to have the same "we're all special" wishy-washy, touchy-feely PHB mindset.

So you *never* do anything else in class then? Always on the up-and-up with the note taking and attention giving? it kind of sounds like you are currently in college and--if you are in the US, which I would bet you are from your preferred profanities--then there is a good chance you are in class, going to class, or coming from class.

Since you only take classes that you could never find boring, I imagine that the rant above *must* have been posted during the latter two options... no way you posted during class.

Right?

Honestly, when I'm in class I'm paying attention. I don't take notes, though, I write on the handouts which are the notes the lecturer provides. If I write anything it will be a solved example (these are what I find most useful) or a clarification on a point in the notes that I don't immediately understand.

As a matter of fact I'm in a UK university. Not sure what you were getting at with the point about profanities, but bullshit is universal and so is cock (I don't use the other c-word). Even using cock and BS was for the benefit of the US readers; I doubt many of you would have appreciated my native curses. I wanted to use Twat and Wank respectively but the latter would probably have elicited a few 'whooshes'.

As for where I was when I posted, I was at home (it being after 8pm and all). //

Re:good move

[kainewynd2]

I'm lucky in this respect because I chose my degree solely because I thought it was an interesting and engaging subject - I've always been fascinated in how things work and how they're put together.

That's great and I'm happy for you that you picked a subject that allows that. History is big, there is a lot of it, and humans are unpredictable given a sample set covering 3,000 years, so applying known rules to keep it in order is nigh impossible. I *specialized* in the Middle Ages which covers ~1000 years, depending on when you decide to start and end it. Despite the fact that most TV historians like to claim that things stagnated during that time, events proceeded very much the same as it always had; i.e. the rules of humanity changed every generation.

During the early Middle Ages, the church wasn't dominant, Rome got sacked by Germanic "tribes", and the Roman Empire up and moved. This is all incredibly interesting stuff, but it is all tied together with strands that can be incredibly boring, but if you aren't aware of these, then the whole picture becomes murky and you start using phrases like, "The Dark Ages."

I think what these arguments are coming down to--not just with you--is that I don't believe anyone who says they haven't zoned out during a class or been distracted by the girl sitting in front of them in Psychology 101 wearing the thong and low pants.

My point remains that if there is a chance to introduce another distraction into the already tenuous environment that is a classroom, it has a much greater chance of being a negative force than a positive.

As a matter of fact I'm in a UK university. Not sure what you were getting at with the point about profanities, but bullshit is universal and so is cock (I don't use the other c-word). Even using cock and BS was for the benefit of the US readers; I doubt many of you would have appreciated my native curses. I wanted to use Twat and Wank respectively but the latter would probably have elicited a few 'whooshes'.

Sorry about the misattributed nationality. I am probably one of the few folks that would have picked up on the (more common) British curses as I've had a bunch of British friends over the years...

Re:First Post

[K. S. Kyosuke]

There

Hey, stop surfing around and reading /. and start taking notes!

A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Sarten-X]

Here's a thought: Instead of banning distractions, be the distraction yourself. For centuries, teachers have been competing with distractions, including daydreamers and sleepers. Laptops and the Internet are just more things to compete with. Instead, make your lectures interesting. Vary the tone of your voice, provide practical examples, and stay away from the temptation to just stand there and talk. Yes, you're a professor. Yes, students are paying to hear your ideas. No, they are not paying to just hear your voice.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I went to clown college.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[psulonen]

Problem is, many professors have no training as lecturers or teachers, and may not even have much talent for it. They may nevertheless be extremely good at what they do, and have extremely relevant and important things to say.

The course that most changed the way I think about stuff was by a prof who looked like he crawled straight out of some dusty archive, and he drone on in tedious monotone about it. The subject was just about the most boring imaginable as well. I had to struggle to stay awake for the first couple of lectures. Then I picked up on the substance of what he was saying, and it turned out it was some of the most insightful stuff I've ever come across, in any medium.

Conversely, there was another lecturer who was fascinating, funny, dazzling, and exciting, but never had anything to say that wasn't either trivial, wrong, or easily available in basic literature.

Is it fair to expect that professors are also great teachers? Personally, I don't think so. It would be a great bonus, but some profs just aren't cut out for it -- yet they may well be the ones with the deepest knowledge about their subject.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[gsslay]

College students are not kindergarten kids. Professors are not teachers.

College learning isn't fun and games, before a five minute nap and a carton of OJ. If the students are so attention-deficit that they have difficult maintaining concentration on anything that isn't presented like a shopping channel, then perhaps they should go play and leave the college learning to the grown-ups.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[MichaelDelving]

Ha. Had the most monotone professor, world renowned in his particularly dry and boring field, but he put the Ben Stein teacher drone to shame.

There were apocryphal-seeming stories of students falling asleep in upper-level grad classes of his. Only seeming, because they sound unlikely, unless you ever took one of his classes.

Case 1: 3 or 4 students, one fell asleep, and at end of lecture prof shushed students, and turned out lights and crept out, leaving him asleep. Case 2: single student made it to lecture, fell asleep, professor kept teaching. Sounds unlikely, but I have on good authority (passersby).

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Bazman]

They're doing none of that. They are paying to get a degree. Some don't even seem to understand that paying their fees isn't sufficient to get a degree, and that they have to do work as well. Really.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[svtdragon]

I paid a hell of a lot of money to go to a college where the professors are, first and foremost, teachers. Small class sizes (30ish at the most), professors who know what they're talking about and whose success doesn't depend on research as much as it does on student evaluations of their classes and their teaching (as framed by the students' evaluation of their own learning).

I wouldn't want to sit in a 100-person-plus lecture hall again after experiencing that. I really can't think of a way to overstate how much of a difference it makes.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Sarten-X]

It'd be nice if maturity worked that way, but it doesn't. Humans in general are easily distracted, no matter how mature they are or what kind of media you're working in. Everything is a competition for attention. Whether it's a sales pitch, a lecture, or a political debate, the presenter with the most substance AND the most interesting delivery will come out the victor. Sure, it's possible for a student to force himself to pay attention, but that will just make the class seem like a hostile environment, no less than draconian rules and bullying do the same for elementary school.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

oh please. every human likes an engaging speaker. sure they don't need to do parlor tricks or balance on a unicycle while juggling chainsaws and still trying to teach, but having passion and a ph.d. level of understanding for a subject is what makes a good speaker. I had plenty of classes with not only very foreign (accented) but very boring teachers- the combination of which was unbearable and unintelligable as well as useless. I dropped several of those classes, and my education suffered. I'm of the opinion you should not be in a teaching position if you're not the least bit understandable or even remotely good at teaching. The problem is, you get your Ph.D. and suddenly you're expected to be a good teacher. Having a Ph.D doesn't make you a good teacher, it just makes you smart. Universities must must must filter the bad teachers.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Sarten-X]

A good teacher must mix both substance and style. According to [url="http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Techniques-Teaching-Joseph-Lowman/dp/078795568X"]Joseph Lowman[/url], there are two dimensions involved in the quality of teaching. First, there is simple mastery of the subject matter. A teacher who knows nothing will teach nothing. Second, there is the personal rapport between the teacher and the students. A teacher who is capable of engaging ALL students, through whatever appeals to them, can teach even the most boring subject to even the most disinterested student.

If a student doesn't care about the course, and the teacher doesn't care about the student, then nothing will be learned. In your example, the boring teacher had exactly what you needed to be interested: insight. That's fine for you, but may not work so well for another student who, for example, might learn more from charts and diagrams.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't been in a college recently, I suspect. College students are far too often children in many ways and professors are expected to cajole and amuse them into doing whatever is currently the low expectation for courses. Professors that don't do that can have serious problems keeping their jobs. Expecting students to do more than a couple of hours a week of work outside the class is far too demanding.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[thebagel]

Professors are not teachers.

I don't understand this mentality. Professors ARE teachers. They may not be kindergarten teachers, but the idea is the same - their job is to get ideas into your head. If that means they have to try to make things more interesting, that shouldn't be a problem. Yes, students should be paying attention. However, if professors and lecturers truly want their students to be paying attention, they need to be giving them a reason to pay attention.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem isn't so much that lectures are boring as it is that many professors (especially the ones who do lecture hall size classes) give completely pointless and/or irrelevant lectures which have nothing to do with what you're going to be tested on.

I have a history professor right now who does nothing but ramble on and on about all the papers he's written and all the time he's spent digging through old books. Meanwhile, the actual subject matter of the course (American Foreign Policy) gets ignored. I had the first exam in that class a week ago, and all of the questions were taken directly from the book.

Around a third of the people who attend those lectures (many don't even bother) have laptops out and are on Facebook, on Twitter, or in a few cases using the wifi to host Starcraft games.

The moral to this is that if you want students to pay attention to your lecture, you have to make it relevant to what they're going to be tested on. Otherwise, you might as well not even bother.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[mcgrew]

Yes, students are paying to hear your ideas.

They're not paying to hear the professors' ideas, they're paying to obtain the professors' knowledge and insight. The ideas are for research, not education..

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[godrik]

I guess it is also important to understand how professors are hired. They are hired by heir expertise and not by their taching skills. In fact they never have been taught how to teach.

By the way, I think at this age a student should be able to overcome the boreness of a teaching to understand what's behind.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[gsslay]

All you say is true. But part of earning a degree is proving that you have the discipline to work and concentrate even when things aren't that much fun and or interesting. Try telling your boss that you've done none of your work today because the team meeting he held this morning didn't capture your attention adequately.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[gsslay]

they need to be giving them a reason to pay attention

How about; pay attention and pass your exams, don't and fail? What else should an adult student need for motivation? Chocolates? Extended recess? Gold stars on their wallchart?

Otherwise I agree. Nothing can beat a lecturer who is also a good communicator and teacher. But no students should be going into a college course demanding that the lectures make the subject interesting and fun for them, or it's all their fault they spent the day reading Facebook. Some things take nothing but hard work, and if they're not interesting enough in themselves then you either just stick at them or pick something else to learn.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said, man. The larger problem is that the upcoming generations have to be 'entertained' to pay attention, instead of just being able to focus and learn presented information. They are under constant media bombardment, and this is partially the result.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a lot easier for me to kick you out of my class. My class, my rules. Don't like it? Drop the class and find some other instructor who will cater to you.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Sarten-X]

We learn to override our innate self-centered tendencies as we grow up. Yes, you can become spiteful as a consequence, but that is purely YOUR CHOICE. If you choose to be grumpy about the fact that...

...many students can't stand your lectures, you'll push students out of amazing opportunities. Meanwhile, those professors...

...who aren't running around with a gigantic sense of entitlement are going to...

...have students who learn better and will...

...succeed in life.

If you really think it's 100% the student's fault that they do poorly, you are sadly ignorant of the past few decades of education theory. I've taught classes, and seen students who ignore everything. There are some you simply can't help. Those that make a bit of an effort, however, should be helped as much as possible, and if that means you need to change your teaching style, then so be it.

If you can't shed your self-centered ideal of being the great master teacher, bear in mind that our known history of Socrates comes primarily because he was Plato's teacher. In your class are a few dozen or more brilliant minds, and your lecture could be the one to spur them on to great deeds. Surely, those many minds can potentially do more good than your single one.

As teachers, we teach not for ourselves, but for our students. If the students aren't paying attention, especially on a widespread scale, it may not be the student's fault.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

My students generally do pay attention, and the vast majority do well. Further, those among us who have a reputation for being inflexible hardasses who emphasize self-discipline regularly get excellent feedback from former students 5-10 years down the road about how well we prepared them for their careers. So your assumptions are incorrect.

There are a few, however, who do not do well. They come in with the assumption that life should adapt to them, and not the other way around. We spend enormous effort ensuring that we teach with the students strengths and weaknesses in mind. But fundamentally, adulthood requires self-discipline, and the real world will NOT adapt itself to you and the idiosyncrasies of your character.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree. I am a college professor and I (and I believe most professors) consider teaching as part of my job and not just lecturing to an empty class. I want my students to learn and I go to lengths to try to present the material in a way they will remember. With that said, we also tend to put more responsibility on the student to learn and take the initiative than at the HS level. However, professors do feel like they're putting on a show when they lecture to just keep the students looking at them. Nothing is more disheartening to teach a class where the students won't respond no matter what you do.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[TerranFury]

Hear hear. I'm now at a large research-oriented state university (which is where you want to be for grad school), but I had your experience for undergrad, and I can say that the difference is night and day. I feel so sorry for the undergrads who ended up here. Those poor bastards.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Gkeeper80]

Of course, students who really aren't paying any attention are likely to fail courses and quickly fall below enrollment standards, so there's already a fail-safe here.

On the other hand, restricting access to technology is a draconian measure that can have unintended consequences (many outlined throughout this discussion).

The reality is, schools don't want students to fail out. There are plenty of altruistic and selfish reasons for this, but it's in their best interest for their students to succeed. There's no reason that schools can't inform students about the dangers of distractions during class time without setting up new rules.

Professors who enact bans, rather than working to improve their teaching style are doing a disservice to their students, schools, and subject areas. The college experience should be more broad that simply "learn what I tell you about this subject" and part of that lesson should be helping to find your personal learning style. As adults, students also have the option to make up their own minds about what information is useful, accurate, or ignorable. Professors should be doing their best to explain why their information is worthy of attention and acceptance.

Let the natural incentive structure demonstrate which learning methods work best and more power to the students who can play video games in class while still mastering the material.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

Easier said then done. A professor is a professor not an entertainer or a two hour motivational speaker. You have to cover specific material when you teach and the reality of it is, some of it is not entertaining. Even if/when professors have gone out of their way to attempt to entertain students, I have seen students playing games or facebooking - if its between listening to some stranger speak about some foreign concepts or interacting with our social network on things the student is familiar with then there is little competition. I have noticed that performance of students does suffer when they are playing games in class - its not unexpected as it happens in grade school, high school, etc. we can argue that they are losing out, but good professors that try hard to teach their students also suffer as other students are distracted and they have difficulty realizing why students aren't performing well.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[frank_adrian314159]

Humans in general are easily distracted, no matter how mature they are or what kind of media you're working in.

And it is impossible to be more distracting while presenting information - which is often boring - than a competing medium whose sole purpose is "mindless" distraction. If it's so easy, please tell us all how to make integration more "interesting" than a YouTube video of a drunken cat. Twit.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[newdsfornerds]

The profs should hire spokesmodels to read the lectures? I think that's what you mean. Or did you mean they should use Penn and Teller?
HEH

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Nocterro]

Here's another thought: If you don't learn, it's not the professors problem. If I don't work hard, I don't get to bitch at my boss that my job wasn't interesting enough. I get fired.

University should be where kids meet the real world and start acting like adults, or fail.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[LordVader717]

Good for you. I've had lecturers that were boring and drab, and did nothing other than copy a textbook to the board. And ones who were apparently highy respected and certainly had insightful things to say, but they were things that were irrelevant to the subject matter and totally inapropriate for a freshman course who had yet to learn the basics.
After all, that's what most lectures are intended for, at least the mass-attended ones. If you can't convey the subject in an interesting manner any better than a textbook, you lecture is entirely superfluous.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a thought: Instead of banning distractions, be the distraction yourself. For centuries, teachers have been competing with distractions, including daydreamers and sleepers. Laptops and the Internet are just more things to compete with. Instead, make your lectures interesting. Vary the tone of your voice, provide practical examples, and stay away from the temptation to just stand there and talk. Yes, you're a professor. Yes, students are paying to hear your ideas. No, they are not paying to just hear your voice.

This is exactly the crap that drove me out of teaching.

It was in the 1960s. Up until that time, kids went to school as I did -- to learn, or else.

By the time I was doing my student teaching, the philosophy had become, "If the student fails, it's the teacher's fault."

Teaching was no longer enough -- you had to be a friend, counselor, shrink and everything else that was lacking in a student's life. No parental discipline -- your problem. Kid doesn't give a damn -- your problem. Kid had no breakfast -- your fault.

You can lead a horse to water, ....

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

make the class seem like a hostile environment

What a crock of PC horseshit. The "hostile environment", if any, comes from the slugs wearing pants and skirts in the classroom seats, who dare you to teach them anything.

You should be well beyond Sesame Street-style instruction well before you even get to high school, much less college.

Re:A novel idea: be a better teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a lecturer myself (and it would seem I'm not such a bad one), so I feel I can speak with some confidence on the matter. You are right that it's crucial to make lectures attractive and entertaining. The lecturer does indeed need to capture the attention of the students, and this is, indeed, a competition with the other distracting elements that are present in the room.

You are, however, wrong in two respects:

1. It is not true that people give their undivided attention to one thing. Therefore, even the best presented, most attention-grabbing, most entertaining lecture would still result in less information being retained by the students if there are other powerful sources of distraction in the room. The need for well-presented lectures does not obviate the need to eliminate sources of distraction.
2. The purpose of the lecture is not to be distracting. It is to transmit information in a durable fashion. Being entertaining and capable of captivating the students' attention is a means to an end, and it is not true to say that both are independent: you effort of grabbing attention will come at a cost in how much you can present, or how deeply you can treat the subject (and vice-versa). In contrast, the only purpose of a game is to entertain, and it appeals to much more low-level brain functions than a typical lecture would. Trying to compete for attention with a FPS game when explaining mathematical equations is a losing proposition, however good you may be at presenting your stuff. Similarly, an advertisement or even a political debate does not try to inform you of anything, quite the opposite: typically it will actually try to convince you of something in spite of objective facts. Capturing a person's attention for 50 seconds and leaving them with the subliminal feeling that "A is good" is a completely different game than trying to convey advanced scientific concepts.

Finally, I would strongly argue that removing sources of distraction makes the environment seem less hostile to a student that is interesting in the material. I am biased by the fact that I teach only master's courses, and that those students are supposed to be interested in the material to begin with. But I have a strong conviction making the learning environment easier on the students (easier for learning, that is) makes it feel less hostile under any circumstances.

Laptop notes

[LikwidCirkel]

Laptop/tablet note taking has drastically reduced my paper load and improved the quality of my notes. If I were in any of these schools, I would take this issue as far as I possibly could.. I actually have in the past with individual professors, and I always came out the victor because there is simply no sane justification for such a policy. That said, I have a big problem with students playing games in class where I can see their screen. I've told people in the past, that if they're going to play games, at least sit in the friggin back row so no one else can see. Disruption is, and has always been a problem, but banning laptops is not the answer. I could handle blocking wi-fi in lecture theatres.. that helps just a bit.

Re:Laptop notes

[FlyingBishop]

I had one CS class in college where a couple of students famously spent most of their time playing chess. (We never really understood why the prof allowed that.)

Re:Laptop notes

[betterunixthanunix]

"I could handle blocking wi-fi in lecture theatres."

That is exactly what came to mind when I saw this article: the problem is not the laptops, it is that fact that they are constantly connected to the Internet. Just request that WiFi be disabled in the lecture halls, and suddenly laptops are not a distraction, but a note-taking tool with the potential to do a lot more than pen and paper could.

Yes, a determined student could find a way around this, but if students are determined to not pay attention, the problem is much deeper than laptops...

Re:Laptop notes

[Paradigm_Complex]

I actually have in the past with individual professors, and I always came out the victor because there is simply no sane justification for such a policy

Consider yourself lucky that the lack of sane justification is sufficient to stop such nonsense wherever you go to school. In my experience that's rarely in the case.

I could handle blocking wi-fi in lecture theatres.. that helps just a bit.

For what it's worth, I've found internet access to be quite helpful in class. It's not unusual that I've forgotten something the professor assumes you've remembered. This hits me particularly hard in the autumn after a summer away from academia. When I can simply Google "taylor series" for a quick reminder and actually understand what's going on in class I benefit quite a lot more then just sitting there lost.

Re:Laptop notes

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a college professor and I don't have a problem with laptops in the classroom. However, I would not work at a school where I was not allowed to ban the laptops if I felt they were a distraction to my ability to teach. From the professor's perspective, I don't want laptops in my classroom is a sane policy whether you or I like it or not.

On a side note, surprisingly enough I have had to ask a few students to not surf porno sites during class. I have nothing against porno but thinking that surfing porn sites during class is acceptable is just plan odd.

Re:Laptop notes

[Basement_Cat]

I'm sure being confrontational about bringing your toy to class will build a career for you. Sales, maybe, or even college administration. Bottom line -- in higher ed, what the instructor says, goes. Students don't dictate terms; they adapt or get the hell out. I'll do my best to deliver worthwhile content in an engaging manner, challenge you to think and learn, and assess your progress fairly. if you can't keep your end of the bargain without relying on a search engine for your knowledge...well, good luck.

Re:Laptop notes

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, even more simple than having wi-fi blockers is simply to give the profs the opportunity to turn the routers in their room off for the class period, or even put in a request to the IT department that the access is scheduled to shut off during class time (you can do that with many routers). While it wouldn't completely cut out on distractions, it would greatly reduce them. I've ran into a class where everything more advanced than a digital watch was forbidden, and another class where the professor didn't mind if we were IM'ing other students because in our specific case it was inevitably about the class and inevitably either contributed to discussion or answered a question that a student would have otherwise asked the professor.

That said, almost every day I had a class where I'd have to climb up four stories of stairs (the elevator was in a restricted part of the building, and therefore reserved for people w/ disabilities) so my laptop was just too heavy to haul around like that.

Re:Laptop notes

[Jeff DeMaagd]

The problem I kept running into is, how do you make diagrams and equations in an efficient manner on a computer? Computers seem to fall short in providing a fast and efficient way to draw diagrams. There is only so much time to take down the information, and note taking programs don't do well with adding sketches to text.

I can't think of a class that I had that didn't benefit from having diagrams, except maybe history, though the need for rough maps might arise. Even English benefits from diagrams.

Re:Laptop notes

[LikwidCirkel]

I pity you if you truly think this way. True that _most_ students get dismissed when they complain, because usually it is just about bringing a toy to class, so they have very poor arguments, AND they conduct themselves so immaturely that no administrators will take them seriously. In my case, it is a convertible tablet, and I almost always use it legitimately, so I have strong arguments in my favour, plus, I'm an achiever and have positive relations with most professors. There are many cases where students have a lot of say in how classes are conducted. It's all about how you approach the issue and how you conduct yourself. If change needs to happen, someone needs to initiate it.. we can't just sit by idly and PAY the salary of these idiots through tuition and taxes. Grade school doesn't operate the same way, because the student is not paying and does not have the choice to be there. I've been in classes where the students unanimously removed a professor from his teaching assignment (not his job), among a few other issues. Maybe I'm just lucky to go to schools where students who deserve consideration and respect actually get it. It must suck to have only been to shitty schools.

Loop-hole

[Anonymous Coward]

I would simply record the lecture and then transcribe it later on. Ha ha ha ha! That'll show them!

Oh wait....

None of there Buisness

[SirBigSpur]

I ran into this issue at my school and had a few professors get frustrated by students with laptops. However we talked about it in class and came to the determination that the people who are using laptops to screw around are only hurting them selves. And besides whose paying the tuition? This would be one thing if this was High school but not college.

Re:None of there Buisness

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell from the way you write that your education was remarkably effective.

Re:None of there Buisness

[gsslay]

Did you discuss in class how laptop use may damage your mastery of spelling and grammar?

Just wondering.

Re:None of there Buisness

[Anonymous Coward]

And besides whose paying the tuition?

Your parents. And the government. Judging by your language skills, it's been substantially wasted.

Re:None of there Buisness

[SirBigSpur]

Your right, I should be really worried about how my spelling and grammar is on a site where 90% of comments is toilet humor. Go FYS.

Re:None of there Buisness

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right...

You're: contraction of "you" and "are".

...spelling and grammar are on a site where 90% of comments are toilet humor.

When speaking of present-tense plurals, we use "are". "Is" is singular.

Re:None of there Buisness

[SirBigSpur]

lol

Re:None of there Buisness

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell from the way you right that you're education was remarkably iffective.

Fixed that for ya.

Re:None of there Buisness

[SirBigSpur]

lol Just becaz I is razed by lol catz doznt mean yuz cans bee meanz to meez! lol at grammar Nazi.

Re:None of there Buisness

[mcgrew]

And besides whose paying the tuition?

I see you're not an English major! ;)

(Yes, I've made that mistake too. I just thought it was funny. When you did, not when I did.)

Re:None of there Buisness

[SirBigSpur]

lol it's all good.

Re:None of there Buisness

[tophermeyer]

...and came to the determination that the people who are using laptops to screw around are only hurting them selves.

My thought is that these people also de-value the degree and the reputation of the school, thereby making my degree less impressive regardless of how hard I worked or how successful I was. This kind of student behavior might be expected or tolerated by County Community College, but for a school like GWU this behavior damages their reputation.

Re:None of there Buisness

[SirBigSpur]

I can see where you are coming from with that. However I don't think banning all laptops because a few idiots want to play WOW during class is the right thing either.

Re:None of there Buisness

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't belong in college.

Re:None of there Buisness

[Anonymous Coward]

"And besides whose paying the tuition?"

Tuition is only part of how universities are funded. If you're at a public university, the taxpayer is footing a big chunk, too.

Re:None of there Buisness

[iknowcss]

Reading his past comments, I can't decide whether he is the god of subtle trolling, or if he actually writes like that. That prospect is terrifying.

Hold me.

Re:None of there Buisness

[newcastlejon]

And besides whose paying the tuition?

I see you're not an English major! ;)

Or, indeed, an English student. Because here if you come from a poorer family the state will pay your tuition fees*. I was one of these lucky folks; without the state I'd probably be just another spanner-jockey by now.

Someone asked earlier why lecturers take a register, well among other reasons it's to let the student finance peeps know if you're wasting their money. Sure it has nothing to do with banning laptops, which just seems asinine (I'm not an Eng Lang/Lit student btw, so don't bother)

My point is that it isn't necessarily your money you're wasting, but even if it is one of these facebook-surfing miscreants is taking up a seat that could have gone to someone who would make better use of it

*Up until recently, anyway. Now it seems wholly state-funded higher education has been replaced by a system of loans paid back after graduation and limited state subsidies. I suppose it had to happen eventually, but you can bet your bottom dollar - is that how you say it? - that if things were as before and students wasted time in class they would be told to buck up their ideas.

Other students

[Rtmm]

My biggest problem with those who come to lectures just to play games/chat on facebook or what have you, is that they are distracting other students. Its fine if you don't want to learn, just don't come to class. Other students paid money to come to class and generally don't want to be distracted by someone playing counterstike or watching youtube all class.

Re:Other students

[ickleberry]

2.4 jiggahertz jammer?

It's probably for the best

[bsDaemon]

It's probably for the best. I sort of slagged off in my 4th semester of Latin and would just look up translations of Cicero online and have it ready if I got called on. Caesar I'd just do, but technology enabled me to be even lazier in the second semester of my Senior year than I otherwise would have been. Not that Cicero is much relevant to my actual career, although the BOFH motto seems to be 'Auc Caesar, Auc Nihil' (and if it's not, it really should be).

That said, I didn't have a laptop at all when I was in high school, let a lone bring one to class. The first couple of years at college, I had eRacks setups in my dorm room and convinced IT to delegate me static IPs, so I could shell to my machine from anywhere else on campus, or get back in through the tunnel set up by the Comp Sci department on the Linux cluster if I were at home. I paid more attention in class back then.

I totally get the point of the ban, and frankly in a lecture hall setting there probably isn't a real need for the laptop as opposed to a seminar or lab setting. If I were to go back to school for another degree, chances are I wouldn't bring the laptop with me to class, however if I were told I couldn't, hell yeah I'd be pissed off.

Re:It's probably for the best

[jittles]

I'm going back to school for a masters and I cant STAND the students taking notes on paper. The teacher has to repeat an important definition 5 times while they slowly scribble it down and I've typed it word for word on the first go.

People will pay attention if they want and preventing me from being able to quickly take notes so that I can spend time actually thinking about what the teacher has to say isn't going to make my learning experience better.

Re:It's probably for the best

[bsDaemon]

The best classes I had in lecture format where the ones were the professor emailed us notes in powerpoint or pdf format so that we didn't have to keep detailed notes of our own and could pay attention and be engaged in the class. Also, if you missed a class you got the notes anyway and didn't have to harass other students (and in a class of 150-200 people, if one or two aren't there, its not like the professor notice). I wish more professors would do this.

Re:It's probably for the best

[DragonFodder]

Either I'm missing something in your motto, or you mis-typed..

Auc Caesar, Auc Nihil --- In the founding of the city Ceasar, in the founding of the city nothing?

Thinking maybe you meant to type "AUT Ceasar, AUT Nihil" which is more along the lines of "Either Ceasar or nothing" or more likely "All or nothing" roughly translated.

Re:It's probably for the best

[jittles]

My professor posts the Powerpoints provided by the book's publisher but I like to write down key points the teacher brings up. But yes, if the teacher uses slides its VERY nice when the teacher provides those.

Re:It's probably for the best

[tophermeyer]

Either I'm missing something in your motto, or you mis-typed.. Auc Caesar, Auc Nihil --- In the founding of the city Ceasar, in the founding of the city nothing? Thinking maybe you meant to type "AUT Ceasar, AUT Nihil" which is more along the lines of "Either Ceasar or nothing" or more likely "All or nothing" roughly translated.

LOL. Evidently my friend, you are following on the proud tradition of the rarely discussed precursors of Grammar Nazi's, the Order of Grammar Centurians. Your probably the type of guy that corrects mispronunciations of "Veni Vidi Vici".

In all serious though, I was confused too. I had to use some google-fu to refresh my Latin.

Re:It's probably for the best

[Anonymous Coward]

The first couple of years at college, I had eRacks setups in my dorm room and convinced IT to delegate me static IPs, so I could shell to my machine from anywhere else on campus, or get back in through the tunnel set up by the Comp Sci department on the Linux cluster if I were at home.

I bet you told all the girls that and it got you metric fuckloads of ass.

Re:It's probably for the best

[Anonymous Coward]

although the BOFH motto seems to be 'Auc Caesar, Auc Nihil' (and if it's not, it really should be).

Probably should have spent more time paying attention in latin class, because it's "aut caesar aut nihil"

Re:It's probably for the best

[Anonymous Coward]

I sort of slagged off in my 4th semester of Latin

You slept around? Who knew Latin could be so interesting..

Re:It's probably for the best

[bsDaemon]

Yes, you're right... 8:34 AM is not the time to be speaking latin apparently.

Re:It's probably for the best

[AthanasiusKircher]

Ah, pedantry...

Evidently my friend, you are following on the proud tradition of the rarely discussed precursors of Grammar Nazi's, the Order of Grammar Centurians. Your probably the type of guy that corrects mispronunciations of "Veni Vidi Vici".

I find it really ironic (intentionally?) that you felt the need to use an apostrophe when forming the plural of Nazi in "Grammar Nazis." No apostrophe necessary, my friend! ;)

And by the way, perhaps you know this, but in the era before the modern Grammar Nazis, there were plenty of local pronunciations of "Veni Vidi Vici." Hence, we still pronounce "et cetera" according to the standards of normal English Latin pronunciation (with a soft 'c', which would have been the way most schoolchildren would have been taught to pronounce "Vici" in the US and UK 150 years ago). The late 19th and early 20th century saw a shift toward reconstructed classical pronunciation, but that same era also experienced a significant decrease in the importance of Latin (and classical Greek) in standard primary and secondary curricula -- later cemented when in the 1920s and 1930s average people began to be encouraged to complete high school (in the US, anyway). Latin was primarily retained in private Catholic schools, where it was often pronounced according to the Italianate way rather than the traditional English way, hence the "chee" sound in the way most people pronounce Caesar's famous phrase.

Personally, I find it silly that anyone would ever think of "correcting" something like that. You might as well "correct" people for not pronouncing old English words like Chaucer would have before the Great Vowel Shift....

Re:It's probably for the best

[Anonymous Coward]

'Auc Caesar, Auc Nihil'

The kids who weren't dicking off still know it's "Aut Caesar, Aut Nihil"

New hardware opportunity?

[Errol backfiring]

Maybe the manufacturers should add an extra digitizer to the notebooks for doodling or just add this feature to a bigger touchpad. Off course, a doodle application and a touchscreen would do the trick as well.

Re:New hardware opportunity?

[bytethese]

Like my LiveScribe pen/notebook?

Lecturers should not be overzealous nannys

[kaptink]

Student who want to use laptops legitimately should not be punished by those who don't. And as others have pointed out, students traditionally doodled or read books or slept so why should this be any different. I think some of the older lecturers are stuck in old ways which are inevitably counter productive. Laptops do more good than harm. Besides its up to the student to pass the exams and it is not the lecturers job to 'nanny' students.

Re:Lecturers should not be overzealous nannys

[Lawrence_Bird]

because it may have become a distraction to other students in the class? Lectures are not always meant to be one way either - class participation can be an important part of the learning expereience. From my own personal experience I am far more likely to be ignorant of my surroundings while working on a laptop in a coffee shop or library than if I am just day dreaming out the window. I would also suggest that while you (or more likely your parents) are paying to attend this class or lecture, you are paying for the right to attend a lecture on a certain subject by a (hopefully) qualified professor who is hired to lecture/teach in the way he thinks best.. If it is his/her view that laptops are a distraction then you should find another section with different professor.

Re:Lecturers should not be overzealous nannys

[Angostura]

"Laptops do more good than harm." That's the assertion that is up for discussion here.

Re:Lecturers should not be overzealous nannys

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of knowledge taught at a university can not be tested (well) with an exam, which is exactly why it's important to attend to and pay attention at lectures.

Your grade may determine whether you get the paper, but if you only want the paper, then why don't you just flat out cheat? A college education is more than a collection of grades, if you do it right. What you learn beyond your grades, and I'm not talking about tastes of alcoholic mixtures or flirting techniques, separate you from the crowd.

How about training the kids to use the PCs better?

[Bearhouse]

Seems rather extreme & lacking in imagination. Maybe just cut the wifi in the lecture halls?
However, the interesting point for me is this one:
"I don't want to know what's in your computer. I want to know what's in your head."
In both business and teaching situations, I've found PCs can be incredibly helpful, or the reverse.
If everyone's 'head's down' doing their emails (typical business meeting) or facebook, (typical kids scenario) then of course there's no real communication or interaction.
But if you use PCs well, everyone gains.
For example, teach your colleagues or students to use mind mapping software (try 'freemind', or the better but costly Mindjet) and they'll save masses of time taking and then reviewing notes.
A mindmap takes little 'heads down' time to do, enabling people to think and participate in class, and then acts as a good revision tool.
Give people a soft copy of stuff, so they don't have to take notes, but can add to yours, and/or follow on their screen if they have visual or other difficulties.
Give 'em practical exercises...

C'mon guys, don't just BAN the things!

That's nothing

[__aaelyr464]

One of my professors not only wanted to ban laptops from his classes, but also had a portable cell phone jammer that made it impossible to receive texts or phone calls within a 20 foot radius of the classroom. In hindsight, reporting him to the FCC would have been the funniest damn thing in the world.

Re:That's nothing

[skroops]

Was that class in the basement of the ME building?

Re:First Post

[blai]

You are expelled.

Regards, Prof. Dumbledore

talk about counter productive!

[Travoltus]

Even when used as glorified typewriters, laptops can turn students into witless stenographers, typing a lecture verbatim without listening or understanding.

Wait a second... when you're wearing your hand out scrambling to get hastily spoken lecture comments and uber complex differential equations on paper, you're spending exactly how many brain cycles actually listening or understanding?

I did a hell of a lot better getting my master's by having my tablet RECORD what s/he was saying, while watching and comprehending without having to worry about the huge distraction of taking so many notes. Of course I still wrote down stuff, but with the tablet I was also not killing trees while doing so.

Re:talk about counter productive!

[Anonymous Coward]

With a pen/paper I don't have time to think about whether I should be taking specific notes because if I don't write it all down I'll miss it. I'll spend 90% of a lecture just copying notes witlessly. The other 10% will be time spent thinking about the idea being conveyed.

With my netbook, I wait for the professor to finish the idea (while paying close attention to the idea) and then after it's completed I can decide whether I think I need that sentence/diagram/paragraph in my notes. I'll spend 20% of a lecture just copying notes. The other 80% will be time spent thinking about the idea being conveyed.

I don't think I need to say which note taking process has helped me understand the course content more. . .

Prof's need feedback

[Alarindris]

I'm in a band and the one thing that really makes it hard to play well, or at least enjoy playing the show, is an unresponsive crowd.

I could be totally off base here, but I'm guessing that the prof's need feedback too. If they see every face in the classroom looking emotionless at their laptops, the prof's have no idea if anyone is listening at all. Obviously it's the students' money to burn etc. etc. But it would probably make it hell to teach a class to essentially nobody.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[rotide]

Just an FYI, lecture halls usually have 100+ students (easily) and don't go beyond some human up front talking for the _whole_ period only stopping to take a breath from time to time.

It's not a classroom setting, it's a lecture.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[tophermeyer]

Just an FYI, lecture halls usually have 100+ students (easily) and don't go beyond some human up front talking for the _whole_ period only stopping to take a breath from time to time.

It's not a classroom setting, it's a lecture.

I remember once asking my minor advisor how they handled a big lecture hall. My minor was classics, so this person usually lectured to huge classes in ancient history. She told me that she usually picked out 4 or 5 people that she thought would represent a range of comprehension (one smart person, one dumb person, and two or three in the middle). She would keep an eye on those few individuals to make sure that her lectures made sense and that people were following.

She joked that her goal was to explain things in a way that everyone understood, but would be satisfied if everyone but the dummy got it.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[Herkum01]

If a professor wanted students to interact, they would be handing out notes, instead of requiring everyone to focus on writing them.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[ErikZ]

Dear Prof, your class and you suck. The only reason I'm here is because it's a requirement for the university.

If you really wanted us to learn the concepts, you'd hand out the notes and then engage us with theory.

If it's mostly memorization, then I can replace your entire class with a reference book or a calculator.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[DerekLyons]

I could be totally off base here, but I'm guessing that the prof's need feedback too. If they see every face in the classroom looking emotionless at their laptops, the prof's have no idea if anyone is listening at all.

From my experience as an instructor in the Navy, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head here. You watch the students, and their body language as well as their facial expressions, to see whether they are "getting it" or not. Teaching, especially good teaching, is an interactive process.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[xaxa]

If a professor wanted students to interact, they would be handing out notes, instead of requiring everyone to focus on writing them.

All the computing lecturers at my university handed out notes (either PDFs or printed). It was still a good idea to annotate the notes, but very few students bothered with a laptop.

IME, having a valuable and desirable object in your bag is a hassle, compared to having 30 sheets of printed paper and a few pens, and the minor benefits aren't really worth it. I was never especially worried about leaving my bag somewhere while I did something else (use toilet, go and get food, go to the pub, etc) but I wouldn't have wanted to leave a laptop in an unattended bag.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[godrik]

You are right. Students vary a lot from one year to the other (at least in France). And they may need details or more time to get it on different aspects every year. As a lecturer, you need to understand from the audience by watching their reaction. And I think it would be more difficult with students writing on laptops.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[Asclepius99]

A lot of colleges have many of your classes (especially higher level ones) in classroom settings. And while the title of the article says "Lecture Hall" the articles say "class" and "classroom"; so we're not only talking about 100+ students, we're also taking anywhere from 15+.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up. Unless you are a large group of students in a large lecture hall, the class room environment works best when there is interaction between the professor and students. The professor tailors his or her lecture based on questions and feedback from the students during class, since groups of students vary in which topics they find easy or difficult.

The classroom experience works best when it's thought of as an active interaction between the teacher and the learner, rather than a passive interaction like watching TV.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

In this case, there is evidence that the professor needs more interactive classroom discussions. I went through aerospace engineering and even in this field there was not near enough classroom interactions. Everyone would leave class and look over example problems/homework and try to piece together information from the book and from the notes to figure out what was going on. I don't remember a single case in college where a student went to the board and the class worked together through discussion to logically solve the problem. This always happened outside of class without the professor there to point us in the right direction. There was the occasional office visit conveniently timed along other scheduled classes...I guess that what $30k a year gets you...

Re:Prof's need feedback

[nedlohs]

When I lectured a 2nd year programming course there were 300 students in a lecture (in theory, in practice not everyone turned up, and it was in the 200s). I didn't care if people came or not, I put the notes up on the course web page, etc.

Feedback from the people present was important. It determined how slow/fast I went (within reason I had to cover everything and didn't want to spend 40 minutes doing stand up comedy after exhausting the material).

If there's no interaction I might as well do it at my leisure in front of a camera and let them watch the lecture on video. The course was large enough that I was giving each lecture twice (650 students) so that would have saved me time even.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[Frequency Domain]

If a professor wanted students to interact, they would be handing out notes, instead of requiring everyone to focus on writing them.

Quite the opposite, in fact. I hand out algorithms and code snippets, but I don't use powerpoint or hand out my notes. I want my students to think about what's being presented in front of them, and have the tactile lock-in of taking notes. I also try to get the class involved by pausing in the middle and asking where they would go from there, to get them to engage their brains in the process rather than being passive receptacles. I've had numerous students who started the class by complaining about the lack of powerpoint slides come back later and tell me they retained far more of the material than from their other powerpoint-based courses.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

As a professor, I can confirm this. My lectures suffer when the "crowd" is unresponsive. Even when I give "pure" lectures when I'm not asking for active feedback, I still use a lot of passive interaction in the form of head nodding or expression to gauge how well the material is going over. With no feedback, I can't tell if everyone has got it and they are bored, no one got it, or just no one is listening. Do I need to explain further or just plow ahead? Personally, I hate lectures that just drone on like a prepared script and that is what this kind of reaction inspires. At that point you are only one step away from the room full of tape recorders recording the teachers recorded lecture in Real Genius (of course there at least the students had some recording). I really don't think most students realize how much just being engaged can affect the quality of their education.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a professor, and I agree with you 100%. I consider lectures like a performance - I try to make it entertaining, but I also have to deliver the content. There are days when I know I really nail it, and other days when I'm just going through the motions. The class can make or break a good lecture.

Looking at students, making eye contact, is important. When I see someone who is so involved with their computer that they are completely disconnected from the class, it does distract me. If I get on their case about it, that takes away from class time. If I don't, they will continue to be a distraction. Either way, I'm not able to give the class my full attention.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

"Dear Prof, your class and you suck. The only reason I'm here is because it's a requirement for the university."

Which means you are in the class because you WANT to be. Funny how that works.

"If you really wanted us to learn the concepts, you'd hand out the notes and then engage us with theory."

Yeah, right. As soon as you hand out the notes the brains turn off. Because if the students cared about the theory, they would have read the textbook. And there would have been no need for the notes in the first place....

"If it's mostly memorization, then I can replace your entire class with a reference book or a calculator."

Then why are you going to college? That pretty much sums up math and science. And much of the non science areas too. Might as well work your way up in the field of your choice.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[VoiceInTheDesert]

If the prof isn't getting the attention of the students, he isn't making them do so. Make the class harder/more interesting and people will pay attention or fail.

Banning the laptops is a powertrip and nothing more. The profs have all the control in the world over how easy the class is to pass.

Personally, I've gone to classes of 400 students that ban laptops and take attendance but are boring and easy to pass. So I'm forced to sit in a room and listen for 90 min while the prof drones on and I can't use my laptop to do something more productive and I can't skip class because I'll get marked off points for doing so.

Make the class interesting and challenging and the kids will pay attention, simple as that.

Re:Prof's need feedback

[blake182]

I'm in a band and the one thing that really makes it hard to play well, or at least enjoy playing the show, is an unresponsive crowd.

I'm in a crowd, and the one thing that really makes it hard to respond to a band is when they suck.

I'm not the one paid to fix it. I guess we need to work together somehow. But I'm not sure how this is the crowd's fault.

Off the top of my head if you sucked less, I'd respond more. No offense. Same with lectures. Same with product presentations. Same with meetings. Same with anything that you want me to participate in. The leader sets the tone.

Not your dime...

[rotide]

Whose education are those kids who are playing games during class, hurting?

Yours?

Another students?

Who is paying for those kids to sit in the classroom?

You?

The professor?

It's his money and his time. If he isn't being a distraction and hindering the education of the other students, then you really have no say, at all.

Would he get a better education if he wasn't playing games in class? Debatable. He could just as easily waste time doodling, texting on his cell, sleeping, or just plain bunking the class to do what he wants.

While you _think_ he should be doing something else. It's his (or his parents) dime. Not yours.

Re:Not your dime...

[chronosan]

That's a very one-sided view of things. The success of every student should be top priority for a professor.It may be that they (the professor) is a genuinely good person who cares about other people and how their education will affect society years later when the student is in the real world, or that in the university's eyes the success of the student reflects the effectiveness of the professor. In any case, education ... hey, get that sniper on the crane... HEADSHOT!

Re:Not your dime...

[jo42]

If the kids want to piss away their parents money going to college and end up working at Taco Bell as a career, then I agree, they should have that freedom of choice. I mean, how else is the Idiocracy going to create itself?

Re:Not your dime...

[rotide]

You seem to be under the false impression that if laptops weren't around that somehow those kids who would otherwise be distracted would be paying attention.

If it isn't games, it's doodling, if it's not doodling, it's sleeping, etc.

If a kid doesn't want to pay attention you can take everything away from him/her, but in the end they might just decide to not even show up. At least if they are there they can absorb the parts that interest them. If they fail, they fail.

Re:Not your dime...

[ElectricTurtle]

This is so absolutely true. Somebody who is eager to learn will do so even from the poorest teacher, but the best teacher in the world cannot force improvement in the unwilling.

Re:Not your dime...

[godrik]

If a student is not paying attention in my class, I just kick him out. Because he makes my job more difficult and I want to do my job well. I am not going to report him not being in class/lecture and in fact I just don't care who is here and who is not. But if you are in my lecture/class, you are working on it. Otherwise, go get a coffee, I might even pay for it.

Re:Not your dime...

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the amount of subsidies pushed into higher education, especially for public universities, it's likely that the TA does have a financial stake in the students not goofing off.

Re:Not your dime...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, yes, very good.

Back in reality, doing that is simply being a dick, regardless of whether it's currently distracting anyone else.

Not engaging the class?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not flaming, but if my students are not listening, interacting and retaining, then it's a sure sign to me that I'm not being interesting and effective.
Look in the mirror guys, instead of shooting the tech messenger again.

Re:Not engaging the class?

[emkyooess]

It's damned near impossible, no matter how good the lecturer, to compete with addictive multiplayer andor online-games.

i agree

[emkyooess]

Most of my faculty lately have said, "You can bring a laptop if you ask me explicit permission and you vet your notes past me for a few weeks'." AKA, he wants to make sure they're actually using it for that purpose for the first couple weeks.

Classes I've been in with open-laptops policy have been terrible -- I can't pay attention to the lecture because (a) all the clicking/keying around me but, more importantly, seeing (and sometimes even hearing) what they're doing. It certainly is NOT related to the class in any way. I'd see maybe one out of a dozen actually using the laptop in a decent way.

How about typewriters? Would this guy be banned?

[Morris Thorpe]

My favorite is the "ding" at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L29BCQFfqVo

Re:First Post

[Pojut]

This whole thing could be avoided if the wifi connections available inside the classrooms were heavily filtered. It would be a bitch to administrate, but it would stop people from playing games during class and get them to concentrate.

What's next? Burkas?

[popo]

I think I speak for all the men here, when I say that there's nothing more distracting on Earth than a beautiful 19 year old girl in a tank top and a short skirt...

If the school is going to exercise severe administrative paternalism and attempt to remove all of life's distractions from the classroom, will they be forcing female students to wear burkas next?

Re:What's next? Burkas?

[Larryish]

Can we please see a picture of said 19 year old girl in a tank top and short skirt?

Re:What's next? Burkas?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I speak for all the men here, when I say that there's nothing more distracting on Earth than a beautiful 19 year old girl in a tank top and a short skirt...

I'm a Mac user, you insensitive clod!

Re:What's next? Burkas?

[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

or horse blinkers / blinders...

Re:What's next? Burkas?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why on earth was this modded flamebait?

That's one of the primary arguments *for* Burkas by those who support the tradition, and for those who don't it's a prime example of moral paternalism gone awry.

It's a compelling parallel.

Jumping to solutions

[meburke]

This sounds like another case of "jumping to solutions" and not identifying the actual problem. (You would think lecturers who were actually concerned about this problem would know better.)

What problem are they trying to solve? Is the use of a laptop necessary and sufficient to cause a student's wandering attention? Are pencils and paper better for some reason? (And, Hey!, there may be a neurological support for that reason.) Pencil and paper notes take a different type of organizing skill; does it make sense to dump students into a situation where they are required to learn a new skill along with the content? Is the lecture format the optimum way to be teaching?

I ask the last question because I've taken some programs such as "Money and You" http://www.excellerated.com/index.php/45, "Powerful Presentations" http://www.thepowerfulpresentations.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=70, and "The Accounting Game" http://www.theaccountinggame.com/ and 25 years later I can still reproduce the whole body of knowledge as if it was yesterday. (These programs were spun off from the Burklyn Business School. One of the best programs in the USA today may be the "Supercamp" program for teens. which teaches valuable study and life skills. http://www.supercamp.com/ ) These are only programs I know about; what else may be available?

Hey you in the second row ...

[rlp]

Yeah, you with the red shirt. Stop reading slashdot and pay attention to the lecture.

Re:Hey you in the second row ...

[jayspec462]

Look, buddy. Starfleet Academy is hard enough as it is, and as you can tell by the color of my shirt, I'm a dead man anyway. Can't I just have a little fun while I'm here?

No banning allowed here

[hesaigo999ca]

>After all, how many professors ban pens and notebooks after noticing students doodling in the margins?'
I have to agree here, it is not because someone misuses a technology that you have to ban it, tell that to those stupid
bastards over at FIAA thinking anything torrent is pirated.

Simple economics

[pays-vert]

The vast majority of students are not "paying for their education". Either the state or their parents are. And these paying customers (not the students) generally want value for money, meaning they want to see students come out of the sausage factory with something worthwhile to show for it. Colleges respond to their customers, by finding ways to make students learn. Hence, banning laptops in class (which based on my experience is eminently sensible and can easily be worked around for those students who genuinely need them).

No problem

[kiehlster]

My Laptop purchase was delayed so long because of Chinese labor shortages that I won't have a laptop until the end of the regular college school year.

another way to attack this

[Goldsmith]

If students are able to not pay attention, and still do well (enough) in classes, then make the classes more difficult.

Re:another way to attack this

[yrrah]

This is true. In classes that are both boring and easy, I tend to browse Slashdot or read email while paying half attention in case anything important is said. In hard classes, my full attention is required and I don't usually goof off. I find the most effective method of note taking is if the lecturer provides a copy of their PowerPoint to follow along with and annotate. I may also record the audio so I can go through the whole lecture again if I need to.

Re:another way to attack this

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally agree. In every "hard" class I took, everyone paid attention and we covered much more material. The problem, of course, is failing dozens of student who expect the class to be easy but the solution is to have an early quiz worth 10% of grade which is exceedingly difficult.

Re:another way to attack this

[TeethWhitener]

If students are able to not pay attention, and still do well (enough) in classes, then make the classes more difficult.

Two words: grade inflation.

Re:another way to attack this

[Rich0]

A recent Frontline actually dealt with this issue.

There is a lot of politics involved in grading. A professor can't simply fail half their class if they aren't paying attention. Some subjects are hard to learn even if you're 100% focused on the class, even with a good professor.

The interviewed professors felt that they were compelled to simplify the material so that the class could pass tests, which lowers the quality of the educational experience. That lowers the value of the degree for anybody who actually was paying in class as well.

Personally I'm fine with letting people use laptops all they want in class, but I'd have a hard rule on no distracting imagines on the laptop, which includes anything involving on-screen motion. As somebody else pointed out, human brains are hard-wired to detect motion - most people just aren't mentally capable of ignoring it and I'm not sure they should be required to. I'd also set policy that classes are to cover a set curriculum and if some can't keep up that is too bad for them.

However, you'll never see this happen, because like most modern institutions colleges are designed to maximize income and self-perpetuate, and you don't accomplish that normally by kicking people out.

Re:another way to attack this

[LordVader717]

Meh. I've had classes that were so incoherent that students had no choice but to switch off when the professor proceeded to write obscure things on the board at lightning speed purely for self-satisfaction.

Re:another way to attack this

[Goldsmith]

My apologies, Lord Vader, but that's not making a class "harder," that's just making a class more annoying.

As far as hard classes, I'm thinking specifically of an upper level quantum mechanics class I took. There were two textbooks and all the lecture notes were online before the first lecture (cross-linked in HTML, no less) . Everyone still went to the lectures so we could hear the professor's commentary on the material and ask questions as he went through it. The tests were all take-home. It was still very, very hard, because we went through as much difficult material as we could take and we were constantly tested on it.

I think the real problem is that most students don't actually want to take classes (or more fairly, universities aren't requiring classes students want to take). A good class seems incoherent, obscure and fast to someone who isn't actually interested in taking it.

Yeah

[Broken scope]

Your lecture is boring, you are boring, you can't seem to focus on the important points and ramble, you talk about how we should focus our energy (you say that you usually find your energy centered just above your sternum), and you publicly harangue anyone who has a learning disability and actually needs their laptop.

Writing by hand aids memory....

[aapold]

At least for me it does. However, I'm happy to take notes on my tablet, and it works equally well for that (better, even). I imagine this would be a natural use of an iPad as well....

I can't write!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, i don't get it. I sit down by a lesson, can't bring my laptop with me, can't use my iPhone? ?

The only thing I'm allowed to bring is a piece of paper and a pen with real ink? What was the use of that pen again? Stick it to my left ear?

Can't follow Facebook, send tweets, SMS, IMs, emails, buy phone applications before they are all removed from store, watch youTube videos, powerpoints of this and three more lessons, read RSS and news, update my system and a couple other VMware ones, one underneath and two remote, add some chapters to the school script, complete a project plan and set up the email to the Venture Capitalists for my new startup?

And, by the way, who is that babbling guy with big '80s glasses behind that desk? Can we have a little quiet please, we're trying to do some work here!

Pen and paper?

[jbernardo]

I can't write with pen or pencil at a decent speed, if I want to be able to read it afterwards. My handwriting is awful, always was, and no matter how much I tried to improve it always remained awful and slow. On the other hand, I am a decent, fast typist. That is why I bring my notebook to all meetings, or to any course I attend (did you think you'd stop studying after leaving college?). I can imagine what would be if I was suddenly forced to use a inferior solution just because someone abused the efficient one.

In which century are these teachers living, btw?

Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm first time poster, long time reader, basicially i'm 22, went through the last years of high school and got good enough marks to do something like dentistry in university(in aus). Anyway, i didn't do that. I emplore people to learn in their own way, but if the quote comes out "oh, let me check my laptop" thats just wrong. Sure, you may have touch typed your notes etc. but its not in your head. Get real, everyone really.... i mean lectures and students. You teachers grew up in a different environment, your teaching in something different. Learn it, dont ban it. Students, your dealing with old farts, just entertain them, hold a pen to a piece of paper.
JESUS (oh wait, cross that) NON-OFFENSIVE TERM; please just try to be nice to each other, what harm could come? an old teacher? just use the damn notebook (not laptop/notebook), please them. Is it that damn hard?

I agree

[koan]

I'm older and going back to school with a laptop taking notes in class was not working for me, I was easily distracted by either the program I was using, some technical issue, or fighting for the one power socket in the room and in the end I found I had poor recall and reviewing notes on the computer was, frankly, a drag.
Switching to paper kept me engaged, no technical issues, easy on my eyes to review, and the information stayed with me longer.
Not sure how it is for younger folks but paper note taking works best for me.

Dog years?

[ClosedSource]

"A generation ago, academia embraced the laptop as the most welcome classroom innovation since the ballpoint pen"

Are they talking about a canine university? A generation ago academia was debating the use of programmable calculators.

Needless to say...

[Danathar]

The college works for ME as I'm paying (even if it's via loan) and the professor isn't. If a professor/teacher told me I could not use a computer to take notes I'd tell him/her to kiss my ass and prepare to explain himself to every superior above him that I yell at. Stress is a bitch and I may not be able to directly create "change" but I sure can make him/her pay for that decision with uncomfortable moments.

Then again, I'm 40 so maybe I'm not the type of student that is the problem?

Re:Needless to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Those professors do not work for you. They work for the school. The school only wants 2 things from them. Teach at least 1 class a semester. Then ABOVE all else bring in research grants. These things are quarter million and up sort of 'grants'. They could care less about you. Some do. But many do not. The school part of these things is fairly low budget and secondary to what they really do which is 'research'.

Best quote from one of my old profs about this very thing 'I am not here to teach I am here to do research'.

Also this sort of thing could be cleared up by 3 high res web cam in the back of the room that aims back towards the front. See someone is 'goofing' start calling on them or kick them out publicly for doing it. Clear that problem right up. Has a nice effect you can record what you are doing and give the students the lecture after words. That way they do not even need to be stenographers and they can engage in the class. This creates other issues but those are controllable as well...

Most clases don't adapt well to laptop notes

[damn_registrars]

There are very few affordable programs that are worth anything for writing down things like mathematical equations, chemical reactions, physical diagrams, electrical circuits, etc. I tried taking notes on my laptop one year in undergrad and found that the only class where that was the least bit useful was history, but even there it was debatable. The smart student knows that pen-and-paper notes are cheaper, lighter, more flexible, and never run out of batteries.

That said, the professors would probably be just as well to let the students figure this out the hard way. I've never been in a class where it mattered how many people the professor flunked based on poor test scores. And then later on those students will be writing in online forums about how foolish it was for them to try to take notes on their laptop...

Witless stenographer

[The Fun Guy]

Bah. I used pen and paper back before the invention of the laptop computer, and I was still a witless stenographer.

With bad handwriting.

Speaking as an old coot...

[IANAAC]

When I first went to college, the only place you could find any type of computer was in the lab, so taking notes by hand in a spiral-bound was the only option.

I went back to school 20 years later to get another degree, Tried taking notes on a laptop and went back to simple handwritten notes. Here's why: I found that I retained much more when I went back over my handwritten notes, then reorganized them on my laptop. Yes, it was more time-consuming, but I was effectively going over all the information twice and reinforcing what was taught. I was also keeping up my handwriting skills, something I believe is sorely lacking in today's youth.

I wonder how many students today just enter their notes on a laptop and forget about them until finals.

Re:Speaking as an old coot...

[geekoid]

I just focused on the teacher, and then walked across the street and paid 5 bucks for the complete semesters notes.

"I was also keeping up my calligraphy skills, something I believe is sorely lacking in today's youth."

I mean, seriously. I hardly ever write anything down anymore.

Re:Speaking as an old coot...

[IANAAC]

"I was also keeping up my calligraphy skills, something I believe is sorely lacking in today's youth."

I mean, seriously. I hardly ever write anything down anymore.

First off, I didn't say calligraphy.

But regarding handwriting, just because text is "hardly ever written down anymore" doesn't mean we should let it fall by the wayside. Particularly to the point that it can no longer even be read or understood. As with most things, if you don't use it, you tend to lose it.

Professors need to stop reading just from the book

[Joe The Dragon]

Professors need to stop reading just from the book and make the Lectures more then just show to get part of the grade. I see students playing games as a few things.

1. Just killing time as they know the Professor is just a read from a book guy.

2. Need to be there for grade but the Professor talks about stuff that is not even on the test.

3. Filler class that they just take but is not part of over all school plan

4. People who are real good test takers that don't need to pay attention to what the Professor says.

5. People who cheat on tests to get by.

6. People who just get by on passing grades.

7. People on sports teams who can't fail a class (aka there on the sports team so Professor you better pass them or we will pass you out)

Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

This is stupid right from the basic premise, and probably the entirely wrong reaction to what is probably just crappy teaching / lectures.

What do students need to be good with later? Where is all the knowledge? Paper or a computer?

Learning doesn't equal "writing down" stuff. Writing things down can be done very mechanically. You need to challenge people to understand things, and question the correctness of their understanding, in order to teach. No, that also doesn't specifically mean asking a question, but more like giving them problems, the approach to these problems, and then similar problems to solve. Better yet, try to do it in a way that makes using a computer efficient and right and as illustrative as possible, and as EFFICIENT as possible (simulate actual business settings), and you might have an involved audience.

Really? Really.

[TaggartAleslayer]

People do realize they are paying for this, right? I mean. I pay you to teach me. I am not required to learn. In fact, I can fail entirely and have absolutely no return on my monetary investment.

I am going through my collegiate rounds as we speak. I hit it a dozen years into the workforce, but I am actually attending Virginia colleges, as it so happens. If my school bans laptops, only the laptop banned will own... wait a minute.

Actually, no, just screw them. Yeah. It's about professors not actually teaching well enough to pass the class. Professors in minor colleges are actually rated by how many people pass. Heard of a sliding, curved, or otherwise skewed grade?

The curve is so bent over now that it resembles a circle, and these professors are still not rating well. They are not teaching or adapting well either.

Let's just blame the laptop. Accuse the paying students and ignore the fact that the entire system is broken. Sounds good.

Re:Really? Really.

[u38cg]

Many are not paying, in any meaningful sense, as they have mostly not learnt the value of money.

Once Again, Depends on the Student...

[bwohlgemuth]

Had a laptop for my BS and MBA, online doing all sorts of crap. Still graduated with a 3.8+ GPA. As always, it depends on the student. I could see how a bunch of teenagers would be easily distracted.

Give them all the notes in advance

[NoNeeeed]

That's what all the good lecturers on my course did. Before each lecture (and in some cases before the entire course) you got copies of all the notes, at least in digital form. At a minimum that was the content of the slides, at best it also included lots of additional information.

That way you could spend your time listening to the lecturer, joining in discussions, asking questions etc. You actually had time to absorb the information. It made lectures far more productive, rather than just being an exercise in note taking,

If you needed to take additional notes you could add them to the notes you had been given.

It had the added benefit that if you couldn't get to a lecture for whatever reason you had a minimum useful set of notes. No need to crib notes from someone else.

Re:Give them all the notes in advance

[ancarett]

As a prof, this is what I do. Files with the outline of the class and topic are available a few days beforehand and most students bring them to class as a print-out or just saved on their computers.

Some colleagues are aghast that I'm "encouraging students not to come to class" by circulating notes ahead of time. Balderdash! I let the students know that there's "value added" in the classroom session, quite literally. Neither the textbook (one of the best on the subject but with its own idiosyncrasies) nor the notes will give anyone the full picture. Nor would coming to class having not done the readings!

As long as students aren't annoying others around them in the crowded classroom by playing games or movie files with distracting animation effects, I don't really mind if they're "off topic" for a bit -- everyone is at some point, whether armed with clay and stylus, pen and paper or laptop and keyboard.

Not everyone learns the same!

[Drethon]

Now I know that not everyone will agree with this because I don't think there are that many people that learn like me (feel free to surprise me).

I don't learn everything by just sitting and paying attention to the professor. I tried this at the beginning of college and just managed to fry my brain (that or the 5 class, 18 credit hour semesters, yuck). Over time I found that I learned best by picking up the major points during class and reading the books on those points later to help solidify the important points.

I actually do this by playing computer games while I'm in class. The computer games prevent me from completely zoning out but leave enough concentration left to pick up the major points.

I am a Computer Engineer with a 3.35 GPA in my BSE and a 4.0 with one class and a Thesis left in my graduate studies. Since college I've worked for six years now developing DO-178 level B embedded avionics software fairly successfully.

Computer games in class seem to benefit me. If any professor told me I couldn't take my laptop to class I'd tell them I'll be taking another class...

Just my bent $0.02

Re:Not everyone learns the same!

[geekoid]

l them I'll be taking another class...

What do they care, it still pays the same. Now with just one less deluded student.

Re:Not everyone learns the same!

[Drethon]

I'm in college to learn, not for the degree. If they don't want to help me learn than the class is of no use to me.

I never kept notes.

[master_p]

When I was in the university, I never kept notes. My effort in the class was 100% on understanding the professor. My co-students kept notes frantically, and some of them were so good that they sold their notes to other students. The result was that I needed to study much less than the final exams than my co-students.

What is the point of taking notes? the material taught in the classroom is available in books and online. No student should keep notes; they all must pay attention to the teacher and participate in the class.

What is this? High School?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the professor's job to make sure I pay attention in class. It's my dime. If I don't pay attention, and fail - it's my fault. I should have been paying attention.

Re:First Post

[Alvare]

and get them to concentrate

Why would you want people to concentrate? People should want to concentrate, they are the only ones who can decide that. If they wanna play WoW during class they should be allowed, as long as they don't disturb the ones who want to learn.

It's their choice and nobody else's. Personally I intercalate between doing fun stuff and paying attention, because I decided to, and I face the consequences quietly and in my own.

Not all people learn the same.

[RaigetheFury]

People learn very differently and retain information differently. My parents are a great example. My father can read a book and recite passages and facts about the entire book. My mother on the other hand has to read the book, mark references, and look back at her notes before she's ready to "recall" facts.

College is no different. Just because someone has to take notes and study doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them or that they are stupid. It's how they learn.

A laptop is a much more efficient and "readable" note taking device. Ever take notes that you can't read for the life of you because you're trying to keep up with the professor? My laptop saved my ass as it also let me record the lecture. I actually proved that an answer on a test I took was correct according to his lecture example.

I think the issue at hand is that students are doing other things on their laptops. Unfortunately that's the students responsibility. In college if that student needs a parent to watch over them then they shouldn't be in college. Period.

Re:Not all people learn the same.

[geekoid]

" In college if that student needs a parent to watch over them then they shouldn't be in college. Period."
err. no. That won't help i may way. Some people need to learn how to be away from their parents. What that student needs is proper training. College can be a very jarring change.

Note taking isn't stenography

[ENIGMAwastaken]

I see a lot of people commenting on how fast they need to type/write in order to take notes. I find this a little odd, because if you're taking down more information than you can easily handwrite, you're probably not taking notes properly in the first place.

The point of taking notes is to compress the information into a salient outline structure and then insert only the most important information. Just copying, verbatim, what a professor says isn't, in any real sense, "note taking". Note taking implies that you're selectively recording the parts of what the professor is saying that are most important. Just copying down everything is something else entirely, and is dreadfully inefficient, first because you can easily get the jist of what someone says without recording their exact wording, and second because it makes reviewing the notes mostly a waste of time.

Re:Note taking isn't stenography

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say is correct for some classes. However, maybe this needs to be explained to some professors. I have had classes that more or less required taking notes non-stop. In this case, either too much was being covered for one class or the professor was covering far more than necessary (since the exams only covered a rather small percentage of what was actually "discussed").

Re:Note taking isn't stenography

[skroops]

I've always thought that degree programs should start with or at least offer a note-taking seminar or something. I've never been able to take good notes and would love to be taught how to. I just don't take them.

Re:Note taking isn't stenography

[Anonymous Coward]

There are those of us who need to include a wider context for the "most important information" in our notes. What may seem odd to you (the need to type fast to take notes) works for others (i.e. people who need more than an outline to make sense of the material presented in class). The point made over and over in these replies is that different people have different learning styles. There is no ONE correct way to take notes. But unfortunately many people think there is and they criticize those that are different.

Embrace diversity and let people learn using the style they choose. Isn't "diversity of ideas" what universities are supposed to be all about? Practice what you preach, higher ed. institutions! Leave us steno note takers be!!! Reserve the back of the room for those students who can multitask with games. Live and let live. Are the stenographers performing poorly on the tests? Are the gamers performing poorly on the tests? Let test measurements and grades be the way to control student behavior. If what the student is doing isn't working, it should reflect in their grades. Then they will be motivated to change or leave.

Re:Note taking isn't stenography

[LordVader717]

Note-taking is an archaic remnant from when there were no textbooks or other easily accessible material to study from. Taking notes was the only way to ensure that stuff sticked. Having the freedom to fully concentrate on the presentation is always more effective than taking notes, which will likely be less useful than reading the relative parts of the textbook or the professor's material (if he provides them of course)
If the course is slow-paced then it may not make much difference however. Plus some people say they need to take notes to stay awake.

They are right

[gweihir]

Taking notes on paper in real-time was the most valuable learning method during my studies. It forces you to understand what the lecturer is explaining, because you are typically to slow to copy verbatim, you you have to accurately summarize. Yes, it is stressful, but it is effort well spent.

Dysgraphia

[spottedkangaroo]

I don't know about anyone else, but when I was an undergrad, I was a solid C- student. Part of this was my complete inability to take notes in any meaningful way.

The ability to bring my laptop to class to take notes has changed me to an A+ student. I now have an exact and perfect 4.0 GPA with only two classes left on my masters degree. For me, the biggest difference has been really complete notes. Not only do I find that the notes help later, but I find I'm able to concentrate about 4000% better than I used to when I didn't have anything to focus on.

For me and other dysgraphia sufferers (and if you're wondering tests are a serious problem still, but fortunately I test really fast so I just take lots of breaks); I'd expect an exception. And if I didn't get one, I'd head right the fuck down to the Disability Student Resource Center to get them to force the professor to be less of a fucking douchebag.

Yes, I do see some students reading random web pages and playing games during a lecture, but I fail to see how this is a problem for the university since they'll just end up taking the class again to refill the slot with the W/I (withdraw incomplete) in it.

Stop whining.

[Anonymous Coward]

The comments here are pretty appalling.

The professor's job is to educate his students. Not entertain them. By and large, he is accountable to the parents, who pay hefty tuition and expect in return that their children will come out of college having actually learned something. For the flip side of this issue, try talking to a professor about just how hard it is to get students to pay attention nowadays, and to take personal responsibility for their scholarship.

The professors are also accountable to their institutions. Their meager livelihoods depend on successfully imparting knowledge and understanding to an increasingly under-prepared and distracted student body. They have to put up with unfair job reviews and pin-headed bureaucrats, just like software developers do. And they live in fear of having their careers destroyed by anonymous slander on teacher review websites. Since the tenure system is now largely history, most professors are effectively temporary contractors, like software engineers. The big difference is that software engineers earn decent money when they have a job; professors, for the most part, do not. So signing up for a life of teaching is a commitment to a life of frustration, fear, and poverty. Is it any wonder there are so many questionable teachers out there?

So I have an alternate proposal for you. How about acknowledging the fact that learning is hard work, frequently tedious, and the last thing students need is a computer on their desks to distract them during lectures? How about admitting that you do actually take frequent breaks to check Facebook, email, CNN, or whatever during class? How about facing the fact that the human brain is physically incapable of multi-tasking, and every little distraction significantly degrades your ability to absorb information?

Children, pay attention. Someone paid to send you to college. You chose freely to walk into that lecture hall. Now you owe your professor the courtesy and respect to pay attention to his lecture without dicking around on your laptop computer. It is the professor's job to determine the manner of instruction in his classroom. If he deems, quite reasonably, that students will be more engaged and focused by taking notes using pen and paper, then you, as students, should respectfully comply. If you have a disability that prevents you from taking notes by hand, surely you can discuss it with the teacher and obtain an exception. If you disagree with the policy, don't take the class. And if the class is required and you still feel that strongly about it, by all means vote with your feet and your tuition money by choosing another college.

Re:Stop whining.

[skroops]

I agree with many of your points. But I pay my own way through school and don't need a babysitter to tell me how to effectively use my time. A blanket no laptop policy is not the answer. Forcing students to pay attention? How about personal responsibility, these are adults. Being mature enough to attend college is something that the parents should have considered before paying for their kids to go.

Dull lectures

[Scutter]

You know, if your students aren't paying attention in the class, maybe the problem is your inability to engage them in an interesting lecture. In other words, maybe YOU'RE the problem. Maybe you need to get down out of your ivory tower and learn how to teach.

I always thought...

[KDEWolf]

...that laptops and notebooks were the same thing. Damn, I feel young at 23. =)

The students are adults.

[John Hasler]

If they flunk because they watch porn instead of paying attention that's their choice. If they watch porn during lectures and don't flunk, what the hell were the lectures for?

Getting Class Participation.

[Veretax]

I was in one of those huge Macro Economics classes in College, and one of the great things the prof did was keep about 6-8 walkie talkies in class. He'd keep one and then he'd pass a few out before class to any student who wanted one, and during the class he'd call back to walkie X and ask a question, or the person with the walkie might ping and he'd stop to let them ask a question. I loved that about that class.

Re:First Post

[Pojut]

Never said it was what I personally wanted, I was merely offering it as a solution to getting people to not muck around on the Internet while in class.

If you want my person opinion though, I'm with you...I don't care one way or the other. Someone not getting the most out of their (expensive) education is their business, not mine.

Re:First Post

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe they should go to "concentration camp"

I have a suggestion

[Ricken]

Why don't they just make sure the students can't get a wireless connection in the class rooms? Shouldn't be too hard, I heard there are wallpapers that can do that these days.

his classroom

[Anonymous Coward]

his rules.

Personally

[MBGMorden]

I was on the tail end of the laptop phenomenon. I was in Clemson from 1999 to 2003, and I think as of 2001 they required all incoming Freshmen to have a laptop (I was required as I wasn't a freshman, but I ended up getting one anyways, though I used it rarely compared to my desktop). Only class I ever ended up carrying the thing to was a history class that I took as a senior that required laptops - all tests and such were done in-class, on the laptop, and electronically submitted.

And you know what? I'll admit I goofed off a lot in that class. Surfing the web, looking around on eBay, doing whatever. My grades didn't really suffer - the class was pretty easy and I still got an A, but I don't think my experience was enhanced at all by having the laptop around. I can only imagine that the last 7 years have increased the number of "random stuff to do on the internet" even farther.

While banning laptops entirely might be a bit far to go, I can honestly say that I don't think that the original value of laptops as stated is what they were cracked up to be. Honestly though, in the classes I did best in, I naturally didn't have the laptop, but I also took very, very few notes. What I found is that if I was taking notes, I wasn't really paying attention to the professor - I was writing the whole time. And I was MOSTLY writing stuff that was in the text book anyways. I found that I just did plain better if I put my pen down, truly paid attention to the lecturer (just sit there and listen), and then went back and skimmed over the text later. I probably should have employed a voice recorder, but never did bother.

Re:First Post

[xaxa]

If they wanna play WoW during class they should be allowed, as long as they don't disturb the ones who want to learn.

Why? They will almost always be disturbing people (anyone behind them, and anyone that can hear their computer's fans or keyboard/mouse presses). if they want to play WoW they can go to the common room, or just stay at home.

Learn by intraction

[realsilly]

The problem or problems with laptops is that they are distracting. Even if someone is truely typing notes and doing it in a way that summarizes the lecture, for other people sitting near, seeing a display screen or hearing clicking can be vastly distracting.

While it is true, people learn in different ways, people need to be able to learn with out a monitor in their face. I fear one reason that students are opposed to this is simply because they don't know how to write using pen and paper. It has been stated in past Slashdot articles that the art of writing is dying. The thing about writing that people don't get today is that because we write slower than we listen, we force ourselves to remember what the professors said. If we miss what was stated, we asked for the statement to be revistied or repeated, thus adding to the natural way people learn and comprehend.

Some other posted suggested that the professor give the students the notes, well I almost spit my coffee out when I read that. Does not every class have a book that goes with it? I know I had a book for each class I took in college. Students are already expected to read before coming to class, and I suspect the majority of students rarely crack the books before the lessons, but rather only to cram for the exams.

College isn't about making your life easy. It is a place for higher education. It is a place for one to challenge themselves to learn and take in all this wonderful new information. Classroom discussions with professors are the ones students most remember and are very informative when people get involved. The purpose these professors have in mind is for students to interact more. Teaching isn't about spewing out a bunch of notest to students it is about exciting them and teaching them and prompting them to think outside of the box and explore the subject matter at hand.

Close those notebooks and listen. You'll be amazed at how much more you'll comprehend and take in, I promise....

Old vs. New way of thinking

[Spy der Mann]

Writing here because stupid webpage doesn't let me comment.

Banning laptops is the old way of thinking: The student sits, and accepts everything the teacher spits. But we live in the information age. When we go visit a website, we're not just reading the information. Heck, i came from slashdot to comment in here. Questioning is part of the learning process. Using laptops to gather new information or to store the class info is mandatory. Later the student can organize his notes.

Heck, why doesn't the teacher give the students some study material and dedicate the class for Q&A? But no, the teacher must feel important and above the students so that they listen to all his babbling. Perhaps we should go back to the ancient Greece and realize that the old geniuses didn't put their students in a classroom to sit down and jot down everything he said. The teachers asked their student questions and made them think.

Now about games: Sometimes the class is being too tedious. If the student is bored, is it the student's fault? No, it's the teacher's fault. Why not let the student refresh his mind a little so he can feel better and then improve his learning? When a student starts doodling in the the notebooks, the teacher should take note and try to make his class more amusing. Obviously he's not making the students THINK and UNDERSTAND. Their mind is getting tired, and their brains are screaming "GET ME OUT OF HERE!". So they resort to doodling.

The traditional education system SUCKS. Feynman said it years ago and showed us clear examples to justify his statements. Stop making the students memorize a bunch of facts and start making them THINK. Then you won't "need" to ban laptops.

It's so curious how today's education system turns kids into sheep: "Obey. Sit down. Listen. Do not question. You're nobody to question the professors. Get a job. Go up in the corporate ladder. That's the way things should be". And yet, it is people who question the system and do things THEIR way that are often above others and end up becoming millionaires. Like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Mark Zuckerberg, or Kevin Rose. Did they became rich because they obeyed their professors and did things the way they were supposed to be done? No. They questioned. They innovated. They found new ways to do things.

I remember the anecdote where Gauss didn't pay attention to one class when in school, and the teacher made him do the sum of 1 + 2 + .... 100 and couldn't go home before finishing. Well, he thought about it (100 + 1 + 99 + 2 + ... etc) and came up with the formula: (N*N+1)/2. In 5 minutes he finished the "punishment" and told the teacher that if he wanted to confirm it, it was his (the teacher's) job. So the teacher ended up doing the punishment, while the kid was free to go home and play with his friends.

The world is always ran by the smarter people, those who know how not to get swayed by others' opinions and learn to move other people in their favor. If the students complain about the laptop situation but do nothing to solve it, they've already given away their freedom to the people "in charge". So, maybe the teachers will scare you into expelling you from school. SO FUCKING WHAT? You don't need school to get rich. Most of the people who became rich didn't do so because of school (starting with the school loans, by the way). You just need to think about a good business model (and even the old corporate dinosaurs like the RIAA fail at this) and put it into action.

Remember, the teachers are not the bosses, and you're not supposed to be the employee. For instance, the teachers are paid to give YOU a service. If their service is defective, it is THEM, not YOU, who should be replaced.

In the UK...

[cr42yr1ch]

It was very rare for a student to be using a laptop in a lecture or class during my undergrad (at Cambridge in the UK, finished last year). The vast majority of students own a laptop, you would just not consider bringing it to your lectures! As far as I know this is universal across the UK.

How about something like livescribe?

[Anonymous Coward]

A pen that acts like a computer.

Big Picture

[Drasham]

I think that many people are losing sight of the bigger picture.

That being that the sudents are the paying customers, and barring negatively impacting other students (paying customers) why/how can the school dictate how a student (paying customer) utilizes the offered service?

While I do understand that there are always those that can/will be a distraction to others, those cases should be a case by case basis.

If it's someone's choice to goof off during class, that will be reflected in their work while those who are paying attention will do well.

Re:First Post

[Alvare]

As I said,

as long as they don't disturb the ones who want to learn

It was an example, but I agree that if an individual bothers me shouting "Headshot!" just once, I would kick him out of the room personally.

But filtering/censoring is not an option, because of the usual problems like who would decide what is appropiate and what is not and the kind of stuff ./ discusses every day on foreign countries.

Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[illumnatLA]

20-some years ago, I started my bachelor's degree at Ohio University. I ended up in Los Angeles working in the film & TV business as an editor where they really don't care if you have a degree or not.

Fast forward to now... Economy crash, writers' strike, production slow down... so I decide use that as an opportunity to return to college to finally finish a bachelor's degree in Visual Effects.

The classes are held in computer labs and because the systems are used for many different kinds of classes including web design and as generic open labs, they are connected to the internet.

There is nothing as annoying and distracting as someone sitting there working on their Farmville while the instructor is lecturing or while we are supposedly critiquing each others work. It leads to the instructor having to go over simple concepts multiple times due to students not paying attention which really pisses me off as it's wasting my time & money... Mommy & daddy aren't paying for my college classes... I am. We have a limited amount of time as it is... I want to get my money's worth by getting in as many concepts as possible--nott going over the same thing over and over and over because some idiot was tending to his crops.

Now chances are, these idiots who aren't paying attention in class would've found ways to not pay attention in class back in the pre-WiFi internet days, but for the most part, they would've been less distracting to other students who did want to pay attention. (They'd be doodling in a notebook or just sleeping.) If they were doing something that was distracting to other students, it would be much easier for an instructor to monitor and deal with... 'Take those headphones off,' 'stop talking back there,' etc.

These days, the instructor has a bunch of laptop lids pointed in their direction and the students could be doing anything from dutifully taking notes to running their virtual mob to reading Slashdot.

The point I'm eventually getting around to making is that these sorts of distractions that having full internet access in the classroom causes is unfair to the students who do want to pay attention.

I really don't give a shit if someone wants to waste their time and (parents') money by not paying attention in the classroom... but I get royally pissed when it wastes my time and my money.

Personally, if I was teaching I would have a policy in place where first time caught on the internet during a lecture or critique would get a warning, second time... auto fail.

But... I digress...

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[IsoRashi]

I don't know that removing the laptops would necessarily help. My gf is in school for nursing and she complains a lot about people who are slow to understand or ask "stupid" questions -- i.e. questions that were already covered during that class, or were covered in the readings (that were assigned to be completed before that class).

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[Anonymous Coward]

How about you stop looking at other people's screens and start paying attention to your own damn self. Listen to the lecture, be the first to respond that you know what's going on (so the teacher will move on), and mind your own business.

I am a sort of person that can't learn unless I'm fidgeting with something. The best way for me to do that and learn concepts is to do something mind-numbing during the lecture like play Collapse on my cell phone. I play the game to occupy certain parts of my brain while the rest of it is open to listen to the lecture. It looks like I'm not paying attention at all, but in reality I'm learning quite well. I'll often have to pause my game to ask or answer a question. It works for me.

It is NEVER appropriate to ban things just because they are not working for you. For others, they may be very important to the learning process. Of course some people are just fucking around, but that's where minding your own business comes into play.

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[geekoid]

These days, the instructor has a bunch of laptop lids pointed in their direction and the students could be doing anything from dutifully taking notes to running their virtual mob to reading Slashdot.

So? University professors are not babysitter, nor parents. as long as they aren't actively distracting the class room you shouldn't care.

If I want to show up to class and listen t music while you blather away, then so what? All that means is you can't give an interesting lecture.

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[Anonymous Coward]

If I want to show up to class and listen t music while you blather away, then so what? All that means is you can't give an interesting lecture.

Then why do you bother showing up? You can stay home, keep your money, remain an ignorant twit, and blow your ears out with your music. After all, you are an adult.

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[Anonymous Coward]

What ever happened to personal accountability? If someone is tapping their pencil on their desk and it's annoying the crap out of you, you'd ask them to stop. If someone is distracting you with whatever shiny application you happen to see on their screen, SAY SOMETHING. Make them aware that their behavior is disruptive. Complaining about a situation without taking any action, or wishing someone else would take care of it is just contributing. Either take action or quit whining.

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[Anonymous Coward]

If I want to show up to class and listen t music while you blather away, then so what? All that means is you can't give an interesting lecture.

Then why even go to the lecture in the first place if you feel that way?

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[pizzaandwine]

These days, the instructor has a bunch of laptop lids pointed in their direction and the students could be doing anything from dutifully taking notes to running their virtual mob to reading Slashdot.

Read this while sitting in class. Luckily I'm a TA who sits at the back of the room who wanders around giving the evil-eye to students putzing around on their laptops. (And high fives to the one who takes notes in vim with Markdown.)

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[illumnatLA]

I don't know that removing the laptops would necessarily help. My gf is in school for nursing and she complains a lot about people who are slow to understand or ask "stupid" questions -- i.e. questions that were already covered during that class, or were covered in the readings (that were assigned to be completed before that class).

True... there is no cure for stupidity!

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a bit of a paradox that you say you're studying "Visual Effects", yet ragging on youth who are engrossing themselves with the indirect products of said effects. All so you can go back and help PRODUCE more of those effects!

Fucking hypocrite.

Those same kids whom you have a problem with will come up with bigger and better effects, right there under your nose.

But, then again, you ARE getting old, so...

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[illumnatLA]

Nope... University professors aren't babysitters, nor should they have to be.

The problem is when flashing graphics from internet surfing and so forth distract other students from being able to pay full attention. The human eye is naturally drawn to motion and the flashing graphics on computer screens will cause others to be distracted by it... especially if it's accompanied by the *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* of someone harvesting their damn crops.

This is not about how laptops effect university professors. It is about how inappropriate usage laptops and internet in the classroom effects fellow students.

If another student is causing distraction in the classroom be it talking during a lecture or playing games or surfing the internet during the lecture, they are taking away from my classroom experience. I am paying for my own classroom experience not Mommy & Daddy. You take away what I am paying for with your inability to pay attention to something for a couple of hours and you are stealing from me.

I am in college to learn. It is not an extension of high school.

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[illumnatLA]

True... Taking action is a good idea... however there's a difference between the tapping pencil and the flashing screen of the internet on someone's laptop

The tapping pencil is usually an unconscious thing. Asking them to stop will usually result in them saying "Oh, sorry."

Surfing the internet during a lecture is a conscious decision. Asking them (as a fellow student) usually causes a reaction like "what the fuck is your problem" even if asked nicely.

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[Rich0]

That would be fine, if the professor wasn't required to pass most of the class, which means they either need to water down the material for the benefit of those who can't be bothered to pay attention, or keep going over it, wasting MY time.

I'm fine with just leaving each to his own - as long as laptop displays do not contain animations/movement of any kind beyond scrolling, mouse cursors, etc, and as long as the quality of my own education isn't brought down to everybody else's level.

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[illumnatLA]

Don't know why I'm feeding the troll but...

Dear Anonymous Coward:

Please feel free to come back and contribute when you can write coherent statements that back up your argument... if you can figure our exactly what your argument is that is.

Maybe you should have paid attention in Composition 101 instead of 'Facebooking.' You could've learned to string together a few sentences in a way that actually made some sort of sense.

Re:Ban laptops or jam the Wi-Fi

[Anonymous Coward]

How about you stop looking at other people's screens and start paying attention to your own damn self. Listen to the lecture, be the first to respond that you know what's going on (so the teacher will move on), and mind your own business.

I am a sort of person that can't learn unless I'm fidgeting with something. The best way for me to do that and learn concepts is to do something mind-numbing during the lecture like play Collapse on my cell phone. I play the game to occupy certain parts of my brain while the rest of it is open to listen to the lecture. It looks like I'm not paying attention at all, but in reality I'm learning quite well. I'll often have to pause my game to ask or answer a question. It works for me.

It is NEVER appropriate to ban things just because they are not working for you. For others, they may be very important to the learning process. Of course some people are just fucking around, but that's where minding your own business comes into play.

that's bullshit. you need to be fidgeting to learn? you don't know anything about medicine or how the brain works.

Recent Graduate

[Saerko]

I graduated a little under a year ago, and I used a laptop in every class from undergrad through grad school. My friends and I would use our time in the class to either take notes or look up relevant articles on the material via Google Scholar or my school's online library. We got A's in almost every class, and were consistently touted as the most productive and engaged students, because our access to material online allowed us to form better questions and support informed debate through key statistics and quotes. Technology can really, really improve class performance, especially laptops. I think the bigger thing is to stop requiring attendance at classes people pay out of pocket for, and to stop making classes just rote dumps of the material. For example, I had a Pharmacology professor who posted all of his lecture powerpoints online, complete with audio so we could listen to the "lecture" on our own time. We were given case studies and problem sets each week, and the purpose of class was to come in and discuss the cases and problems to make sure we understood the material. Class often got out early, and everyone loved that professor.

Using ONLY iPad or Tablet PC?

[zix619]

Perhaps a way to go is to permit only using slate machines, ex iPad or Table PCs. This way, you have the power of digital media and at the same time, it's much harder to play games or social networking in the class? Just an idea!

Banning Pens and Notebooks?

[NReitzel]

In my first lecture for a quantum physics course at UIUC in 1970, the professor - who had a most quaint German accent - walked in and told us that we were not permitted to take notes. More to the point, he stated, "Der vill be no note taking in dis class. You vill listen vit your minds and not vit your notebooks."

So, how many? At least one.

Why are you taking notes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you taking notes? It is distracting you from understanding the subject. Part of the services provided to you by university should be textbooks which cover exactly what was talked about during lecture and video recording of the whole lecture published on the internet.

Preparation for the real world.

[tarlss]

Sorry guys, computerized learning is here to stay. Just because you've encountered an old problem in a new format (students being distracted) doesn't mean that 'technology is bad'! Seriously, when these kids graduate they'll be using computers to take notes all day, no matter what sort of job they're doing. Heck, even mechanics take notes on their laptop pads of parts they need to order, diagrams, etc. In the real world, people are going to have to learn how to deal with distraction as well, be it from the neighbors cubicle, or heaven forbid, the outside world actually intruding. This teacher is some kind of primadonna, upset about losing an audience he didn't have in the first place. If you can't compete World of Warcraft or facebook, what does that say about you as a lecturer? What does this say about you as a student? Face it- throughout life you're always going to have some asshole frittering away his time while you do work, there's always going to be kids being distracting, and your boss is going to suck up an inordinate amount of time sending you stupid chain emails- learn to deal with it.

my take is...

[Xenious]

For high school, sure limit what they can use. For college, dang man STFU. These "kids" are actually adults paying to be in your class. Let them take notes however they want. If they surf or game instead of note taking then that is their loss and will reflect their grades. I suspect these are not core classes and more like requirements or electives that the students don't really want to be in to begin with.

I'm still not sure why all these professors want to act like draconian high school teachers. What are they going to give some detention next and have them bang chalk dust out of erasers?

Re:Professors need to stop reading just from the b

[Anonymous Coward]

"2. Need to be there for grade but the Professor talks about stuff that is not even on the test."

If you think being in class is just about getting enough information to pass tests, you're missing the point of a college education.

Another prof's take on this

[bradley13]

I'm also a prof, and here's my take on it... I give lectures in a couple of different majors. The CS students all bring their laptops, the business students never do, and there are some some classes in between.

First off, I do not require attendance. In fact, I usually explicitly say: "if you want to read your email, play games, etc, please do not come to class". If you're in my class, I want you there because you intend to pay attention to the lecture.

Alarindris (in an earlier post) made a really good point: to make a lecture interesting, you need to be able to interact with the class. If everyone is heads down in their laptops, and asking them a question causes them to look up with an expression of "huh? what's going on?" - well, there is just no way to make the lecture work. Over the years, I have had a couple of groups like this - it is really, really awful.

Regarding note-taking: I have never seen a student take notes on a computer. Mostly they load up the slides I've provided (which contain some, but not nearly all of the content). What goes up on the board is developed interactively with the class, and inevitably involves pictures and diagrams - there is just no reasonable way to take notes like that on the computer.

A few students complain that I don't provide complete material to download - thus making note taking unnecessary. These are the same students who expect to be handed an "A" on the final, without actually having to study or do anything difficult. The point of a lecture is for the professor to ensure that the students understand a topic. The material presented changes based on feedback from the class. "Is that clear, or do we need another example here?" If another example, or an alternative explanation is needed, you make one up on the spot. You go faster or slower, show more or less detail, use fewer or more examples based on the students' comprehension of what you are talking about.

If you find yourself talking to the tops of everyone's heads, you have no source of feedback. Did they understand? Are they even listening? One poster on this thread said that it's the prof's own fault if the students aren't interested. The other side is: if the students don't give any feedback, the lecture is guaranteed to be boring - because there is no way to tailor the presentation to the audience.

If you have a really horrible prof (yes, I know some of those), don't take the class. If you have to take the class, save yourself the boredom and don't go to lectures. If attendance is required, life's a bitch, deal with it. Consider it practice for those really exciting business meetings you'll be attending throughout your professional life: if you don't pay attention when the boss is talking, you'll be walking.

All of which is a long way of saying: laptops in lectures are really pretty useless for the students. I wouldn't bother to ban them - too much fuss - but I can and do ban any sort of distracting activities.

Re:Another prof's take on this

[geekoid]

"These are the same students who expect to be handed an "A" on the final, without actually having to study or do anything difficult. "
Complete bullshit. You seem to think the knowledge has value simple because it comes out of your mouth.

Just give me the damn information, I'll learn it and pass the test. Be there if I have questions.

Teacher are NOT some magical prophets. They are no longer the gate keepers of information.

You are paid to help students learn. Sitting in a lecture taking notes ahs almost no practical aplpication after college..unless you want to be a professor.

All the real work is done in the lab, and communicating different idea in real time.

  it's the prof's own fault if the students aren't interested.
anyone in the real world who stands in front of people to communicates will tell you that. If you can not get feed back, then you are FAILING at giving the lecture. This goes for motivational speaker, politician, comics. You think student with laptops is bad? try getting the complete attention of a crowd of drunks, or a bunch of computer engineers that don't want to be there.

The last vestige of someone who is failing: "outlaw" the results of your failings instead of fixing what you do.

Re:Another prof's take on this

[ProteusQ]

Just give me the damn information, I'll learn it and pass the test. Be there if I have questions.

Your first sentence is a comma-splice. The second shows an incorrect assessment of the role of the professor -- we are not your servants; we are a resource, available at certain times of the week. If you cannot handle that basic level of subordination, go forth from school and get a job. Better yet, join the military. And if you are capable of mastering some or all of an undergraduate education on your own, log off /. and go do it.

Sitting in a lecture taking notes ahs almost no practical aplpication after college..unless you want to be a professor.

You misspelled "has" and "application"; you also misused an ellipsis. And it is true that taking notes is a useless activity in many jobs. Many of the people employed on my campus who work in food-service and housekeeping do not take notes.

it's the prof's own fault if the students aren't interested.

And it's the boss' own fault if the employees aren't interested in their own work, too, I bet?

Best to get over it & get real, or get some drop slips.

Re:Another prof's take on this

[Anonymous Coward]

Regarding note-taking: I have never seen a student take notes on a computer.

Yes, you have. You just didn't notice it.

Re:First Post

[BobMcD]

and get them to concentrate

Why would you want people to concentrate? People should want to concentrate, they are the only ones who can decide that.

Good luck changing the world to meet your ideals. Meanwhile, students should be required to concentrate because:

1) A degree is the new diploma. Those students are (mostly) not in those seats by choice, any more than they were in high school

2) An education is expensive. They're not feeling the costs yet because they're financially still children. They have never been fully exposed to the pressures of things being expensive. Someone who is aware of the hundreds of dollars per classroom session they are piling up in debt is more qualified to set priorities for their time.

3) Seats are limited, and there is an entire economy built around education. To wit, see 'broken window fallacy'.

In a world where these students can, as another poster suggested, elect not to attend college, your idea works and works well. Unfortunately, this is not that world.

Re:First Post

[Anonymous Coward]

Witless stenographers, pah.

--

Is that a student mewling in the hall?

There is no motivation to be a better teacher

[bingbong]

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is professors aren't hired for their teaching ability, or even their English as a First Language skills.

Profs are hired because of the potential for additional funding through research. Many pawn off the actual teaching to their life bonded serfs (PhD students).

When I was a grad student my prof (and a lot of others) saw the lectures as a distraction to their "real work" (research).

Furthermore, given that profs are 'evaluated' by their schools by the number of papers published (and in what journals) and the amount of funding they can bring in, there is little to no motivation to teach.

Thankfully, there are a few out there who love teaching, but the rest, it's a necessary evil.

Re:There is no motivation to be a better teacher

[kainewynd2]

Thankfully, there are a few out there who love teaching, but the rest, it's a necessary evil.

Yep... once you get to the point that you are qualified to receive a PhD in anything it pretty much disqualifies you for anything but research, publishing or teaching. I had quite a few teachers who were passionate about their specialization, but it still didn't make them great teachers.

Bring the noise

[elrous0]

Ever sat next to someone on a plane who was clackity-clacking away on their keyboard for the entire flight? Well, multiply that by about 30-50 times and you'll get an idea of just how annoying a classroom full of people taking notes on the laptops can be. I wouldn't care if people used laptops, if it wasn't so fucking noisy. If they want to keep laptops in the classroom, fine, but they should require students to use some sort of quiet keyboard. The last class I was in, I just wanted to pull my hair out.

Re:Bring the noise

[NJRoadfan]

You've never worked in a cubical then... when everyone had an IBM Model M keyboard.

Re:Bring the noise

[Rich0]

Uh, when I've been on flights listening to my mp3 player and then used the mp3 player the next day I've nearly blasted my eardrums out since the volume had been left REALLY LOUD. It didn't seem so loud on the plane since the whole cabin was filled with the sound of air molecules bouncing off the fuselage.

If you can hear a typical laptop keyboard while in cruise then you have some REALLY interesting hearing...

I have to agree

[T Murphy]

I'm at an engineering school where all students are required to get a laptop to help with classes where technical software is needed. If someone has their laptop out when it isn't necessary, they are using as a distraction. There may be some note-takers, but I have yet to see one. The problem is that people playing games distract those who see their screens, too. I have to agree with these professors.

Witless stenographers ?

[Yvanhoe]

I have been studying without a single laptop in the classroom and I can confirm that for a witless stenographer a laptop is completely useless. Pen and papers work the same quite fine. There is a solution to remove this behavior, some of my teachers adopted it : to provide each student with a copy of the class ! Usually we note one these copies little details and focus more on the understanding of the matter being taught.

It was not widely popular however because teachers who were poor speakers and bad explainers usually ended up with no student in the room as the copy provided them with the complete class.

Teachers, don't be like the **AA : computers and internet change the way to do things. Don't fight the change, embrace it !

Re:Witless stenographers ?

[danlock4]

computers and internet change the way to do things. Don't fight the change, embrace it !

The learning environment may be changing, but I got a LOT more out of upper-level classes that had fewer students and more interaction between the students and the professor. [digression] How can the changing learning environment (re: computers and internet) be embraced in a way that will enhance interactivity among students and increase the students' retention of the professors' instruction? Hmm... I think I'll call my friend, a professor at a university in a neighboring state, and ask him his opinion....[/digression]

Re:First Post

[Anonymous Coward]

We welcome you, member of the entitled generation. If you want to play games then there is no point in going to class, and if you think you should be able to ignore the rules set forth by your professor then you've got a serious problem with understanding reality.

You're also a total moron if you think playing WoW in class doesn't disturb the people around you who want to learn. Doing that makes you a distraction and you've got to be one hell of an egotistical asshole to think you should have the right to do that.

Here's a hint for you for when you grow up. The world has rules. People who are in positions of authority over you get to set those rules. One day when you are in a position of authority you will get to set your own rules too. If you're a student in a classroom then you are not in a position of authority and if you don't like the rules then you need to leave.

Fail

[GerryHattrick]

If you give the sort of 'lecture' where notes on a laptop (or even in pencil) are an adequate result, you don't deserve your Chair. A proper lecture motivates, enthuses, explains, gives insights into creativity - no notes can ever do justice to that. So: no laptops please, nor... lecturers backs turned while they fill space with impenetrable garbled equations. You can get that stuff in your own time from standard references. On the topic, I want(ed) to know what makes that particular Professor tick. The best of them used eye-contact - to a girl at the top-back of the lecture-theater: "do you like being alone?"

Re:Fail

[JoeDuncan]

... what makes that particular Professor tick. The best of them used eye-contact - to a girl at the top-back of the lecture-theater: "do you like being alone?"

Now that's just creepy. I don't want a prof to do this - *ever*

Re:Fail

[GerryHattrick]

Yeah, but. Seen centuries later, from the other end, there are 200 X 2 eyes, and as a lecturer you DO know them all, and how they are responding. We students (then) all knew why she was at the back, and why it wasn't good for her, and so did he. That's Pastoral Care, even at lecture-level. Same lecturer does the tutorials - when it works, it's a fully-connected system (and she got a better degree-class than I did).

Just Deal With It

[rshol]

Computers, cell phones and other network connected devices are a fact of life. They will be come more ubiquitous and more integrated into our lives than they are now. Academia needs to adapt and learn to deal with them not ban them. If students can't discipline themselves to pay attention in class despite the distraction, they deserve to fail. If instructors can't motivate their students to learn despite the distraction, they do not deserve to teach.

I agree with it

[MistrBlank]

I had a prof that forbid us from writing in class too. He used slides and provided the slides to everyone that attended class.

But he also interacted with students and made them involved with the lectures at every step. It was his style of teaching that facilitated this. Some profs don't care what you do as a student because it's your own time you waste, and that's fine too. But if a prof doesn't want you doing something in their classroom, that's their perogative.

Re:First Post

[xaxa]

As I said,

as long as they don't disturb the ones who want to learn

I simply don't think its possible to use a laptop in class and not distract other people. A bright square and clicking stands out really well in a quiet, darkened room.

One solution NEVER fits all

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, quit fucking banning things just because it doesn't work for you! Some people use their laptops for distractions. For others, it is the greatest tool ever for learning and retaining information. Just because some idiot pissed you off by not learning the material (that he's paying you to ignore) doesn't mean you need to ban EVERYONE from using such a fantastic tool.

One size NEVER fits all. I really wish people would quit trying to push all the square pegs into the round holes. It just doesn't work.

Re:First Post

[K. S. Kyosuke]

They are already quite concentrated on the campus. Didn't you mean boncentration bamp?

Paper is just as bad!

[Hurricane78]

If you write, you don’t listen. If you listen, you don’t write. Simple as that.

I HATED “teachers” who gave us the homework of just copying book pages by hand to “learn” them. I couldn’t remember a word of what was written on them.

I specifically avoided taking any notes, as much as possible. And only wrote down formulas, or basic laws. (In a graph, like a mind map, but without the stupid limitations.)
If I didn’t understand everything, I pressed pause, and went back a minute.

Oh, did I mention, that the lectures themselves were only half of where the learning took place, and watching it on video a second time at home filled in the blanks that made the whole lecture useful and stick in the first place?

Re:Paper is just as bad!

[Aphoxema]

Same thing, I have dysgraphia and it's impossible to read my own writing... especially when it's hastily scrawled out trying to keep up with the torrent of information most of my teachers provide at once. I just sit back, listen, and think about what is being discussed. If I need to know anymore, I have the books I paid out the ass for and everything available on the internet.

"turn students into witless stenographers"

[Lemming Mark]

I've found that the lecturers can do that, laptops or no. In my experience, not that I ever used laptops in lectures, what really turned me into a "witless stenographer" was when lecturers supplied sufficiently inadequate notes that I had to concentrate on writing down *everything they said* rather than understand the lecture. If I'd instead concentrated on understanding the lecture and failed to grasp a concept I would have been left without a proper reference. This is particularly the case when lecturers are not following a particular textbook closely (although - having paid for the tuition and exams why should I have to buy a book if it's prerequisite for those?) or when they choose to define "the syllabus" as "what I say in lectures is examinable" so there's no well-defined written guide to what's going to be in the tests you'll sit.

Easy

[misfit815]

I don't see what all the discussion's about - this should be the teacher's call. If they don't want laptops in their classroom, I don't care how good your counter-argument is.

Re:Easy

[cartzworth]

Unsurprisingly authoritarian attitudes from academia! It's not "their" classroom - W&M is taxpayer funded and I am paying for a service to be provided (education). I will choose to learn how I decide to while I am footing the bill.

Re:Easy

[misfit815]

I haven't been in academia since '96. True, I didn't consider the publicly-funded aspect of the school, but even in light of that I would leave it to the discretion of the teacher if I were an administrator there.

I personally don't think that such institutions should be publicly funded, but that's a whole other discussion.

Note taking vs comprehension

[ehud42]

The summary implies that students comprehend the lectures better when taking notes with a pen & paper vs using laptops as glorified typewriters. I strongly disagree - actually it largely depends on the professor's teaching ability. I recall frantically transcribing notes during lectures so fast I was barely keeping up - any attempt to pause and comprehend would set me back so far that I would never catch up. With a laptop I might have had a fighting chance to keep up - I have always been able to type much faster then I can write.

I wasn't alone - in one infamous math lecture, after scribing a couple pages of some proof or such thing the prof realized he made a mistake and started over. A collective and frustrated sigh arose from the class along with the collective sound of hundreds of pages of paper being torn out of notebooks and crumpled. No one had caught the mistake - why? Because they were all frantically transcribing and not comprehending. Comprehension was for later when you would review the notes.

If your students are not comprehending anything in your class - you are either boring, moving too fast or diving too deep into details that are overwhelming and confusing. In any case, no technology no matter how primitive or advanced is going to help your students during class - however, advanced note taking might help them capture enough information to be able to learn on their own while doing the assignments.

A better way to handle it

[sulfur]

One of my professors had a better way to handle this issue - he required all laptop-users to sit in the back of the classroom. This would still allow students to use laptops in class if they want. However, it would move them sufficiently far away so that other students are not distracted by the clickety-clacking and seeing laptop-users playing games or surfing the web (the same distracting effect as if someone in front of you in a movie theater uses a cell phone).

I firmly believe that pen and paper is still a much better way to take notes and learn in class, but I wouldn't prevent students from using laptops as supposedly they pay the same tuition as everyone else. Even if some students doesn't actively listen to the lecture, it is their choice and it's not an excuse to ban them from attending lectures.

Re:A better way to handle it

[geekoid]

If laptop noise distracts the student that much, then those student will not survive the real world.

My question is...

[JoeDuncan]

If you are going to sit through a lecture playing games, creeping your neighbour on facebook, watching porn or just generally wasting time and attention - why go to class in the first place?!?!?

At that point, you're not getting anything out of it, and would probably enjoy doing what your doing *even more* somewhere else - I mean a lecture hall has to be one of the most uncomfortable places to consume pr0n I can imagine...

Besides, this is university, it's not like the prof *actually cares* whether you are there or not, but you are probably distracting other students.

When I was in undergrad, if I didn't want to go to a lecture - here's a novel idea - *I didn't go*!

Turnabout

[DaveAtFraud]

I agree with getting rid of laptops for taking notes as long as the prof isn't just reading his or her Power Point slides. This is especially true if the Power Point presentation is just the canned set of slides provided by the author of the textbook. I'm looking for the prof to provide "added value" by emphasizing what's really important and providing connectivity beyond what's in the book.

If all I'm getting in a class is a rehash of the textbook, I don't need the prof or the class and can save my tuition by just reading the book.

Cheers,
Dave

Landing zone, pah!

[Anonymous Coward]

Notebook hard drives don't come with landing zones anymore, they have unloading ramps at the perimeter.

Get on with the times

[mario_grgic]

That stereotype is so 90s. Liberal arts and creatives, and grandmothers now use Windows, and alpha geeks are switching (or have switched) over to Mac and Linux.

I'm a mathematician by education, but work as software developer and I use Mac and OS X. Oh, and I know a few things about the zeta function. So, there :D.

Re:Get on with the times

[ezelkow1]

I doubt this, when the vast majority of EE/CmpE software is either windows or linux based there is just about no reason for an engineering student to use a mac. I wasnt in school too long ago, but even then the stereotype fit this. Every engineering major was running windows or linux, and the liberal arts students had the macs. It was also like this in the labs, with liberal arts using the rows of macs, while the engineering students were on the windows pc's or sun workstations. So while it may be true for mathematics or certain sections that have their software on mac, I would not say its true for the majority of geeky majors.

Re:Get on with the times

[geminidomino]

That stereotype is so 90s. Liberal arts and creatives, and grandmothers now use Windows, and alpha geeks are switching (or have switched) over to Mac and Linux.

I'm a mathematician by education, but work as software developer and I use Mac and OS X. Oh, and I know a few things about the zeta function. So, there :D.

I have still never met an "alpha geek" that uses a Mac.

But why would they?
Less hackable than Linux.
Less usable software than Windows.
Pretty UI, though.

Lame.

Re:Get on with the times

[Nerdposeur]

I have still never met an "alpha geek" that uses a Mac.

I have. One of the best developers I know uses one, and loves it. (He's mainly a Rails developer, and Macs are popular with that crowd.)

Re:Get on with the times

[mario_grgic]

I don't think the word usable when used to describe software means what you think it means. Perhaps you simply meant to say "less available" software? But that is only true if you are into gaming.

But out of the box you get the Terminal with thousands of command line tools which if you know what you are doing makes you more productive than Windows can ever hope to be. This is the kind of tool chain that real power users care about and nothing else will ever approach the kind of power and speed of computer interaction as the UNIX command line. Even more strongly, the UNIX command line toolchain is ALL you need to do anything that people do on Windows machines with "more software" available.

True you get the same with Linux, but with OS X you also get the well put together UI and some essential and productivity boosting system services like Spotlight that again people who know how to use find indispensable, or Expose for better application switcher. These things carry some of the command line power over to the GUI world, and allow one to drive the UI much much faster, and get to ones data really fast.

And unlike Linux, you don't have to spend your valuable time setting up your computer and drivers and making it work. Linux is hackable and great OS if you are into OS hacking. If you want to get things done that don't involve hacking the OS you are trying to do other work on as well, then I find OS X to be better (which does not make Linux bad. It's a great server OS).

Another benefit of OS X is that it's a UNIX that can run Photoshop and Adobe video production suite (among others) and my Nikon cameras (drivers) and raw image processing software (Nikon Capture NX) works with it, unlike Linux.

Re:Get on with the times

[Millenniumman]

Macs are deficient in a lot of software besides games. AutoCAD, just for example. Expose is just UI eye candy. The command line can be useful, but its presence in os x doesn't really offer an advantage over windows for most things, and it's not close to "all you need" for nearly anyone.

Re:Get on with the times

[mario_grgic]

Obviously you don't develop software for a living. If you did you would spend all your time in the CLI and you would know the difference between Windows command prompt and real UNIX command line with the standard tools. But this discussion is pointless anyway. People who know, use what's good for them. People who don't suffer with Windows.

Re:Get on with the times

[Anonymous Coward]

alpha geeks are switching (or have switched) over to Mac and Linux

True alpha geeks are at home with Windows, Linux and OS X, and use each either at whim or as the task at hand demands, and don't care at all what the fanbois think.

Re:Get on with the times

[geminidomino]

I don't think the word usable when used to describe software means what you think it means. Perhaps you simply meant to say "less available" software? But that is only true if you are into gaming.

No. I meant "usable" as in "able to be used."

As a software developer, I love the *Nix command line toolchains. If someone doesn't want to run Linux on their workstation (and there are plenty of valid reasons for that, especially if said workstation is multi-purpose), there are implementations that can be run under windows.

Macs get you a pretty UI, limited extensibility, and a hefty premium on the pricetag for more style and less substance.

Re:Get on with the times

[mario_grgic]

Yes, I know there are implementations of UNIX shells for Windows. We at MKS make one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKS_Toolkit

and honestly without it, Windows is completely useless.

Re:Get on with the times

[geminidomino]

honestly without [Unix shells], Windows is completely useless.

For your use cases, perhaps. Most of mine too.

In the grand scheme of windows users, we're a small, well-informed demographic.

That's not the half of it

[JesseHathaway]

Current college student here. In my experience, the "distraction" argument comes up a lot from professors banning laptops, but an argument comes up just as frequently. Professors who ban laptops in their classrooms ioften argue that they present an unfair advantage for students who don't have laptops. I like use my laptop for taking notes, as I can keep my notes highly organized and keep up with the lecture's pace. My top typing speed is around 100 WPM with 99% accuracy, so typing makes things very easy. I avoid the stenographer pitfall, as I like to leave myself notes about what the professor is talking about and rephrase concepts. I actually had a professor deny my accommodation request, on the grounds that, on the first day of class, I was taking notes and had been chuckling softly (I think I might have made 3 soft chuckles, tops. How she heard me from the other side of the room, I don't know) about the irony of a British priest writing to the Brits about how horrible the Colonial Spaniards were to the Native Americans. She assumed that I had been talking online or something and was laughing about that. I tried to argue my case, but eventually decided just to conform and accede to her demands.

Absolutely

[pavon]

But part of the problem is that some professors try to cram so much information into such a small class period, that you don't have any time to wrap your head around what is being said in class. Mindless stenography is really your only survival option, especially when the prof is covering information that is not in the book. If they don't want students to act this way then:

Professors need to:
* Set realistic goals for what can be covered in a lecture, realizing that not everyone learns a the same pace.
* Provide comprehensive lecture notes for anything that is not in the book, and post them in advance of the lecture.

Students need to:
* Read the book and/or notes in advance.
* Focus on understanding what the professor is saying in class.
* Limit note-taking to annotating the provided lecture notes.

Even then, there are some subjects where you really won't understand the subject until you dig in and start applying what you have learned.

Liek ther eparents did?

[geekoid]

you mean, with a laptop?
I know someone in 85 that used one of those TRS typing things for notes.

Here's a link... wow, a blast from the past. Also, I seem to have gotten old some how.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Model_100_line

of course, it's application was severely limited. This is why I just bought my notes from across the street.

As a recent W&M grad...

[cartzworth]

I had a limited number of professors who banned laptops in their classrooms. Typically it was only the insecure professors who sucked pedagogically who resorted to such bans. If you have a stimulating lecturer on a worthwhile topic, the issue of attention solves itself. Ultimately, it's only the student who suffers anyway. Sort of the old "you can lead a horse to water..." type deal, just involving technology as an inhibitor to learning which is only a distraction because of lack of inherent attention/motivation in the student.

Laptops are no more distracting than elaborate doodling, fidgeting, or sleeping students.

Disclaimer: I totally fucked around on my laptop in classes I didn't care about (General Education Requirements!) or with professors who sucked. However, it's also nice to be able to lookup something you don't understand or is tangential but interesting...

Re:First Post

[Synn]

In a world where these students can, as another poster suggested, elect not to attend college, your idea works and works well. Unfortunately, this is not that world.

Total and absolute BS. Most college educations are completely worthless. Psychology, French Lit, History?

I'd say most people would be much better off financially if they skipped college and used the money that would've gone into that somewhere else.

Now take fields like engineering, law, computer science, and so on, those are totally great fields of study. But if you can't be bothered to pay attention during class then society would probably be better off with you not graduating in the first place. I don't want to drive on a bridge designed by someone who had to be made to stay off Facebook by his mommy professor during class.

I tottally agree with this

[anexkahn]

I used to take my laptop to class every day, but I found that in most classes it was merely a distraction. The times I sat in the back row I could see everyone elses computers as well. The majority of the time these people were also distracted. The only classes of the ones that I took that really benefited were my programming classes, and even then, it wasn't every class period. I know that for some their experiences will be different. But so far in almost every instance, the people with computers were very distracted from what was going on in class. And when you start watching a youtube video in class, it distracts the people sitting behind you too.

in my day

[proxy318]

When I was in college, the best way I found to take notes was when the professor would hand out printouts of his slides, with some details left out. then i could just fill in the blanks, and wouldn't have to write so much that I couldn't really think about what was being said, but still ended up with complete notes. If this could be done on some sort of tablet, they they'd probably have some serious power. also, students who don't want to pay attention won't learn, will always find a way to waste time, and that's their problem. if they're not distracting other students, then I don't really see it as the professor's problem.

good for the professors

[shop S Mart]

Good for the teachers, it's their classroom so if they don't want computers it's their call and it's not like they don't tell the students on the first day of class what their policies are either verbally or in the syllabus. You don't like their rules drop the class and add a new one. Or do what one of my profs did and make all laptop users sit in the front row so when she's wandering around lecturing it's easy for her to see what the students are up to.

Re:good for the professors

[TRRosen]

Students are paying thousands of dollars a semester and its the teachers classroom.

BULLSHIT Its the students classroom, its the students university!!!!!

Incorrectly assigning blame

[Admodieus]

As a current college student, I use my laptop (OneNote ftw) often for note taking. However, during a really boring class, even I'll start surfing the web. I notice a lot of students playing games, watching movies, doing online shopping, etc.

However, instead of just banning laptops, there's a lot that the professors and university can do to make students want to pay attention. First off, Powerpoint has ruined the university lecture. Most textbooks will come with companion slidesets for each chapter, so often a professor will just throw those up on the board and reiterate the same content TO THE WORD that is in the chapter. You're basically paying whatever your university's undergraduate or credit rate is for an audiobook of that textbook.

Also, a lot of professors these days come unprepared for lecture, especially because they feel like they can just use the textbook powerpoint as a crutch if the need arises. I can't tell you how many classes I've sat in over the past year where the professor is teaching material out of order or not relevant to the current reading or homeworks.

Lastly, many professors have become incredibly boring and prone to ramble about personal anecdotes. I just had a server technology class where the professor droned on every class about some single incident in his own experience that wasn't even related to servers half the time. He also spent a good amount of time talking about the Toyota issue. Why would I want to pay attention to that?

If the university wants to ban laptops in classrooms, they should look inward and reevaluate their own faculty first. If they still want to ban technology in the classroom, extend that to the professor as well - I'd gladly pay attention to see how many of these professors and doctors can't swim without their beloved Powerpoint.

Re:First Post

[BlackSnake112]

The problem is that some of those students also come from wealthy families with lawyers. They feel it is the school's responsibility to educate the students. The problem that I see is that the students do not care about learning. They just want to have fun and get their A.

I'd say give all the students the grade they earn, and if they fail so be it. That is part of being responsible for your own actions. Something many people need to learn.

Re:First Post

[BobMcD]

Total and absolute BS. Most college educations are completely worthless. Psychology, French Lit, History?

While the education is likely worthless, the degree is not. Try getting a job without one. It isn't easy, and as a college drop-out, I should know.

If you'd like to label my comment as 'absolute BS', I'd request you back that up. Find me the high school guidance counselor that recommends skipping college. Find me the recruiter who doesn't even ask if you have a degree.

I'd say most people would be much better off financially if they skipped college and used the money that would've gone into that somewhere else.

You're delusional. First they'll have a much tougher time finding a job. Second, and most importantly, it isn't real money. People get these things called 'student loans'. It isn't as if you can get those and invest the funds into the stock market. You kind of need to be a student. Third, if you're referring to investing the money paid out for Ramen, I highly doubt this would add up to anything close to the job-seekers-permit they would have otherwise received.

Or do you really think people can still pay cash for college?

Now take fields like engineering, law, computer science, and so on, those are totally great fields of study. But if you can't be bothered to pay attention during class then society would probably be better off with you not graduating in the first place. I don't want to drive on a bridge designed by someone who had to be made to stay off Facebook by his mommy professor during class.

Well you'd want to take that up with the education system, as these people should not pass. Yet they do.

College isn't what it used to be.

No problem

[eosp]

No problem for me. Even though I am a computer science student, I take notes on paper. Then I transcribe it into my personal wiki, getting twice the exposure to the material.

Re:First Post

[gumbi west]

I agree totally that people should be able to do what they want as far as messing up a college class. I also agree that a faculty member can make the requirements they want for their class. If they want only such and such behavior in their class, then they can't demand it. Don't want to be so bound? don't go to class. Required to attend every lecture? Don't take the class. Why do people sleep in class? why not sleep in your bed, you will be happier, the professor will be happier, the students around you will be happier. This is what a syllabus is for: you and the professor agree to the rules at the top of the class and then they get to enforce them. At the end, you get an entry on your transcript saying you signed up for the class and how well you did.

Notes from my Father: 4.0 top of med school class.

[2obvious4u]

The most successful person I've ever known, my father, told me the secret to good grades in school. He would take a tape recorder to class and record the lecture, then after class he would go home and transcribe the notes. He was amazed how much he would miss during the lecture. The other students in his class would complain at test time that the professor never covered the material, but my father always had the answers. There were there in his transcriptions.

When I went to college I attempted this method, but I didn't have the stamina. I ended up with a B/C average when I graduated, but I had a lot of fun. I'm not making seven figures like he does, hell I'm not even earning six figures yet. So was having no social life worth the seven figure salary? Definitely, but how to you train yourself to have that level of self discipline?

The reason transcribing works so well is that during the lecture you miss a large percentage of the material to distractions, then on top of that you only remember a fraction of that. By transcribing the lecture you get exposed at least once to 100% of the material covered, then you can re-enforce what you've covered later when you review the transcripts.

you don't learn much in college, except...

[spineboy]

You don't learn much in college, except HOW to learn. The learning comes in grad school. Thus it's not the French degree that's important, but the completion of the degree proves that you have the skills/desires to complete the degree.

As far as them being totally worthless, my one semester of French in college has helped me talk to Haitian immigrants to diagnose their medical problems, so I say it is. Calling it totally worthless is like calling basic science research totally useless -there is something one can do with the basics of a good, solid education, regardless of what you do with it later.

Re:First Post

[Bauguss]

Those degrees are not completely worthless. However, I do believe there should be some heavier guidance in getting those degrees. No one should be allowed a Psychology degree unless they have very specific plans to at least get their Masters. (and even that isn't near as good as going for the PHD) My wife is just about to finish getting her PHD and our checkbook strongly disagrees that the underlying Psychology degree was worthless. That said, I know another person who got the degree and that was all he did for college. He hasn't worked a truly professional job since. So for him, you are right. It was worthless to get the degree and not continue in some form of advanced degrees. It just depends on what you are getting the degree for and what you plan on doing with it.

News Flash

[Anonymous Coward]

The really real world is a hostile environment, get used to it.

For a (slightly) more developed take:

[ThousandStars]

See my post, Students, Laptops, and Distraction: Hardly a Surprise, in which I link to a bunch of articles dealing with some of the research and ideas behind technological distraction (and how it differs from doodling in the margins). I'm a grad student in English at the University of Arizona consequently have to face the laptop/no laptop issue in writing classes and decided on the "no laptop" side, as explained at the link.

(A quick rebuttal of the predictable hit-n-run commenters: this doesn't mean I think every professor/teacher should ban laptops or that laptops are bad in other circumstances. I know that you don't misuse your laptop, and that such a policy is unfair to have the majority behavior dictate rules affecting the minority like you, but I talk about that stuff at the link.)

Re: And one I make

[ThousandStars]

I'm a "GAT" (meaning I teach an independent class) at the University of Arizona and ban laptops in my class for this reason and others, as explained here.

My Take on the Situation

[WarpedCore]

I think it's a double standard... the universities say, "Sure, we'll move to and encourage a digital infrastructure for class notes, grades, discussions, bulletins, scheduling, academic affairs, housing, food services... etc." and offer wifi across campus.. give you meager discounts off of laptops for school... yet the instant a professor feels insecure about being heard in a lecture hall of 500... they get turned off.

I don't buy the keyboard clicking argument... students come to class sick... hack everywhere, they talk obnoxiously... professors won't excuse students and expect others to deal with it, but the INSTANT a laptop is pulled out, it becomes an issue.

I understand that there is a place for laptops. Particularly, I don't find them useful in math classes (unless there is web-based testing or information that supplements it). Writing examples, understanding how the problem is setup and solved flow better when you're practicing them on paper (as you're expected to do the same thing for exams). It's impossible (at least for me) to translate complex board work to a keyboard in a particular order (and with graphical examples) without writing them by hand.

I've taken online calculus and regular pen/paper calculus). I was lucky that the professor scanned problem examples and solutions written out in order to make things easier. Just, there is no reason for them in math classes, in my personal experience/opinion.

English, History, Philosophy, Economics... Biology... just anything with straight up concepts (even with involvement of math) feels necessary in order to obtain information. It's learning preference... some people listen, others write, some type. It's harder for me to try to listen to a professor explain while trying to make my writing legible enough to read later. I consciously have to be an art student to doodle legible characters while trying to grasp concepts. Professors can't really gauge the students natural ability to absorb and retain information... Are they going to supply Adderall at the door to lecture halls.

I had at least one professor take time out of his lecture to "assume" what I've been doing on my laptop, point me out to the class, try to embarrass me, and physically threaten me by walking up to my face and call me "deaf" and "insubordinate" because I had a laptop open. No, I am not failing the class after the incident and no one mentioned it again. It's just insecurity and lack of professionalism... that universities NEEDS with pushing responsibility of students (rising tuition, other costs... bloated or spiraling budgets resulting in student activity cuts.. furlough days).

Nah, the university won't turn wifi off in lecture halls or at least block facebook or anything considered distracting (I guess that goes against university Prime Directive to expand knowledge)... but they'll sure as hell create an area in their IT department to serve up letters to have students cough up money for file sharing.

Laptop bans are stupid. I understand cell phones simply because they are communications appliances.. sure, people can wreck into utility polls at 80mph while getting maybe... 90WPM saying, "I haz good time last night Just all in all.. universities need to re-evaluate other factors than the assumption of a student's attention span that might be sinking the ship.

I use an abacus you insensitive clod!

[NoBozo99]

Move along nothing here.

No Dyslexia is not just Reading Problems

[mjwalshe]

Your mistaken NO dyslexia doesnt only effect reading. I was diagnosed back hohum years ago I (even went to the specialists at great ormand street) and whilst my reading scores where very high I had a reading age of 17/18 at the age of 10 (the average for the population is around 13) I have problems with writing.

Dyslexia is a spectrum of disorders and not all Dyslexics express the syptoms in the same way or to the same extent.

Sounds like the problem isn't laptops...

[soulhakr]

Sounds like the problem isn't laptops, the problem is wireless network access - that's the only thing which distinguishes a laptop from a notepad as a note-taking device.
Why not just jam wireless network (including 3g and cellphone) cellphone signals during lecture periods as they do in some restaurants.

A novel idea: be a better student

[Anonymous Coward]

Professors ARE teachers. [...] their job is to get ideas into your head.

I don't understand this mentality. Supposedly, students are at university voluntarily because they want to learn. It is their job to learn. It is the professor's job to help them to learn, by clarifying the material in the textbook, by illustrating connections not obvious in the course material, by explaining details glossed over in the text.

University is not about mandatory warehousing of children. It is supposed to be about adults wanting to learn.

how many professors ban pens and notebooks

[Anonymous Coward]

well ... Socrates

You obviously failed learning one thing ...

[freaker_TuC]

... People think different.

Because this way works for you, it doesn't work for everyone like that. It isn't even a matter of intelligence but rather how to process incoming information and retain it.

If I had no possibility to write down my notes, I'd be fluked all time.
Because it works for you, that does not mean it works for anyone and vice versa..

Doctors writing ?

[freaker_TuC]

I don't know if this is a worldwide fact; but try to read a doctors note in the Benelux...
Half of the time you'll need an Enigma machine in order to understand it.

Silence

[Jeremy Erwin]

Most laptops also create quite a bit of noise. Ditch the fan and switch to an SSD.

Try letting the students fail!

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? While I understand the Professors' arguments regarding the distractions, there's an easy to fix the problem. FAIL THE STUDENTS! If they don't pass a course because they couldn't take notes on their computers or retain knowledge, then don't pass the student. Period. If the student can't pass the course, then he/she might think again when accessing Facebook while in class. And, who knows, the student may learn a little personal responsibility after the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time repeating the same class. And if not, so what? Sounds like a new revenue stream for the school.

my ASU experience

[Anonymous Coward]

as a Student going to Arizona State using laptops, I will state my personal experiences: I see a lot of people in the back of the class in my BIO 100 class doing facebook, myspace, youtube, mobsters, email, and even playing fps games like medal of honor, bioshock2, etc. On the other hand, I also see some people continuously taking notes on a tablet pc, or even typing notes verbatim. I see this more in say my Upper division classes. I am guilty of all of these cases. When I would youtube or email or do something other than take notes, my scores suffered. However, on the other hand if I took notes verbatim or almost verbatim, I also retained more information. It was a lot easier to score a grade of 84 or higher on a test, basically because I typed all the notes at least once by myself...somehow i retained more information. In addition to note taking...for classes like programming...you can compile your concepts learned on the fly and see if it works or not...if not you can ask questions.

Anyway, its not a total fix, but to remedy this...have people with laptops sit in the back of the lecture hall. No its not totally cool, but this way the slackers playing games or whatever will at least not be in the front of lectures distracting people. Its just unfortunate for those people trying to do good in school using a laptop. Since i stopped programming now...i just stopped bringing my laptop to school.

Yes professor...

[Anonymous Coward]

One word: Adidas
All
Day
I
Dream
About
Sex

Re:First Post

[dgatwood]

Quiet, darkened room? What college was this, again? Most colleges these days use real video projectors that don't require substantially dimming the lights.

Re:First Post

[dgatwood]

Hey, stop surfing around and reading /. and start taking notes!

The problem is that there are different types of learners. Some people learn visually, some aurally. Having some portion of the lecture notes on overhead slides helps the visual learners, but it isn't equivalent to being able to have precise notes that you can read, and people just can't take notes as rapidly by hand.

By taking away computers in the classroom, you unfairly bias grades towards the aural learners to a rather significant degree, so they'll just come up with other coping mechanisms like bringing camcorders, audio recorders, spy pens with camcorders built in, etc. so that they can record things, copy down copious notes, then read them later to study. This doesn't help those students. It merely means that they have to endure the lecture twice, once in person, once while copying it down.

This also means that a lot of those students will band together and have one person record it, so your class attendance will likely drop. Reduced attendance, in turn, discourages the discourse that is critical to higher levels of learning.

If processors were serious about making the learning environment better, they would give the students lecture notes and allow the students to read along if desired while they lecture, then take those notes with them as a study aid. When you do that, ta-da! No more distracted students desperately trying to take notes in class. Suddenly the students interact with you, and proper learning can take place.

Then, if students are still using laptops in class, it's either minimally to note things that the student thinks are important and/or note clarifications from in-class discussion or they're playing games/browsing the net. Either way, at that point, banning computers would be okay, though not particularly necessary.

As for the argument that requiring students to take notes by hand forces them to be selective about what they take notes on, and thus makes them better at filtering, to a large degree, that ability is dictated by biology. Some people (auditory learners) are wired for being able to quickly interpret things through their ears and separate the wheat from the chaff. Others (the visual learners who need the notes in the first place) are not. Maybe this ability can be taught to some degree, but it's more likely that you'll just get all the visual learners taking shorthand classes or using voice recorders, and unless you're training stenographers, you're really no better of than you would be just giving them a copy of the lecture notes in the first place.

Then and now

[spaceyhackerlady]

When I was a grad student (late '90s) laptops were big and clunky and expensive enough that they weren't effective classroom tools, and nobody used them.

I didn't go back to school for a career change, BTW. I went back to school because I was bored with the work I was doing, and felt I had reached a career plateau that would make it difficult to do anything really interesting without some more letters after my name. I wanted a timeout from the rat race. I wanted to do something interesting.

I'm taking a night school course now, ground school for my pilot's license (yes, it's interesting). The course setup is high-tech, with all lectures being delivered with a laptop and overhead projector. We still use the whiteboards for diagrams and discussions, and nobody uses a laptop for notes. How do you do navigation problems on a laptop? You get out your charts, your ruler, your protractor and your E6-B.

...laura

surfing

[Anonymous Coward]

Surfing the web in class not only destroys any chance of you learning anything in class, it distracts everyone around you.

3.8/4.0 never brought my macbook to class

--and was NOT recorded "just in case"

[skroops]

typo

Lack of basic consideration ...

[Anonymous Coward]

As a professor, I always wonder why do these student even bother coming to class.

There are no attendance requirements; all necessary information
about midterms, homework, and the final is posted on a website. I list
the topics I cover each day so students could read (glance at) the relevant
sections of the book rather than attending lectures.

And yet, in the lowest level courses, I always have a fair number of students
not paying attention and disrupting the classroom.

I never paid any attention in my undergrad classes, so I understand the
impulse well. But I had enough consideration for other students
to skip the class!

So?

[dragoneye1589]

I'm failing to see how this is news. Many courses of mine do not allow laptops. I even had classes that required you to sit in the front row if you wanted to use your laptop. For me I have had classes that I only attended because of the rare occasion something useful came up and entertained myself with my laptop most of the time instead, otherwise all my notes are pen and paper.

Re:Professors need to stop reading just from the b

[skroops]

"4. People who are real good test takers that don't need to pay attention to what the Professor says."
Can you expand on this? I don't pay need to pay attention to what the professor says and I do well on tests, but I always thought that was because I'm a self-motivated learner. I've never taken a test where I did good on it because of anything other than knowing the material.

A Calma do prof. Luiz Mauro

[johnrpenner]

this is what they do with cellphones in class now... ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwv8rXb3ha0

Note Taking

[gd2shoe]

Even when used as glorified typewriters, laptops can turn students into witless stenographers, typing a lecture verbatim without listening or understanding.

And they think this is going to get better, not worse, when those students switch to (slower) pencil and paper? If students can't learn AND take notes, then there is either something wrong with your style of lecturing, or they're not ready for the class (and will need to work very hard to keep up).

For me, my laptop greatly increased my ability to take notes. Since it's a tablet (T4210), and since several of my teachers posted their power points ahead of time, I could "print" to MS Journal and write my notes directly on their slides. This saved me time and effort in writing context for my notes, and allowed me to better pay attention. (Of course, classes still went way too slow; most teachers have no idea how to use ppt effectively, though it can be done.)

Re:Note Taking

[sonicmerlin]

I wish I had a tablet with a keyboard, or just a notebook with a touchscreen screen. I much prefer typing out notes, but obviously in some classes where you have to copy down diagrams or write on slides you simply have to use paper and pen.

On the other hand I've always thought it stupid that teachers expect you to understand what they're saying while you're taking notes. It's just not possible. It's hard enough to understand while just listening, but to do it while performing something as mind-intensive as note-taking is just not going to happen.

Ban teaching by powerpoint before you ban laptops

[jdbuz]

I've been out of academia since '95 but back then professors wrote on the board (with the occasional overhead graph) and students wrote on paper. My girlfriend recently went back to school and almost every class is taught by powerpoint presentation which nearly begs the students to bring in their laptops. If you want to ban the laptop then ban the lazy practice of teaching by powerpoint.

Luddites are alive and well.

[Domini]

No wonder the US is doing so badly when it comes to qualified university graduates.

I say let them use computers, play games and even fail if they so wish. One thing I would agree on is that it does tend to distract other students and hampers interactivity.

I took notes at university not because I EVER looked at it again, but more that I would interact better with the material at the time. It made me think and understand it better.

What about note-taking on a handwriting-recognition type tablet computer?

I would not have minded to have a lighter backpack at university...

Re:Luddites are alive and well.

[Anonymous Coward]

You've confused your word definitions somewhere..... here's the definition of Luddite:

      Luddite:  If you refer to someone as a Luddite, you are criticizing them for opposing
      changes in industrial methods, especially the introduction of new machines and
      modern methods. e.g. "The majority have a built-in Luddite mentality; they are resistant to change."

(that was the first definition from http://www.google.com/dictionary?langpair=en|en&q=luddite --later listed definitions define the word more specifically, explaining its origin as part of an early-1800s British textile manufacturing movement)

Re:First Post

[Fred_A]

Why would you want people to concentrate? People should want to concentrate, they are the only ones who can decide that. If they wanna play WoW during class they should be allowed, as long as they don't disturb the ones who want to learn.

That's fine in theory, but how can I get the prof to speak softer so my squad hears my instructions more clearly when I play CS ?

I tried being reasonable by removing my surround speakers, but I wish I wasn't the only one making an effort.

Re:First Post

[Fred_A]

You are expelled.

Regards, Prof. Dumbledore

You are dead. Keep quiet or I will kill you again.

Regards,
J.K. Rowling.

Re:First Post

[uncledrax]

If they wanna play WoW during class they should be allowed, as long as they don't disturb the ones who want to learn.

I dunno, in general I agree, but then I also realize that it's my tax dollars putting a good part of them through school via government backed grants and scholarships.. and before you ask, I did work when I went to college and paid my own way.

education is all backwards

[TRRosen]

Have you noticed that education is the only business where the customer is always wrong.

Professors are paid by the students but the professors tell the students how to act.

Employees (profs) park right in front of the building and the customers (students) park in the next zip code.

No need for a ban

[Anonymous Coward]

Laptop -> Back rows, mandatory.
And everyone is happy.

Banning pens and notebooks not always a bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

>. . . how many professors ban pens and notebooks . . .

Well, actually, when I was in college (when the planets crust was warm and dinosaurs roamed the earth) I did have a great Physics prof who discouraged note taking. In fact I remember one incident where he asked everyone to put away their pen and paper, gave us a brief explanation and quickly erased what he had written so no one could write it down. His point was that he wanted us to understand it, not memorize it or simply write it down. I realize that everyone's different (except me, of course) and that some people learn or listen better by taking notes, or even by doodling (or knitting for that matter), but his point was well taken. I'm guessing that keeping one's fingers or toes occupied may be helpful to some as an aid to concentration or processing.

The problem with computers in class is that there are too many mental distractions available. I know for myself, given the excuse of note taking I would probably end up websurfing or working on another assignment or engaged in some activity that would cause me to be less attentive than is helpful. But I'm sure that's just me. Ideally we shouldn't need to take notes anyway, that's what textbooks (and mimeographs) are for.

Re:First Post

[Anonymous Coward]

But bright computer games do distract people. So if the kid in front of you starts up porn, or a video game, you're going to be distracted.

Re:First Post

[biryokumaru]

Personally I intercalate between doing fun stuff and paying attention

You insert days in a calendar between doing stuff and paying attention?

Re:First Post

[couchslug]

The discipline should be performance testing.

You either master your subject or you do not, and if you choose to fail the course then it's on you.

Re:First Post

[earlymon]

Total and absolute BS. Most college educations are completely worthless.

I'm reminded of the quote to the effect that college does not create fools, it merely develops the fools that entered.

It's not college that's the problem.

Re:First Post

[Anonymous Coward]

If they wanna play WoW during class they should be allowed,...

Sure. but not in the friggin classroom!
That is what the damn auditorium is for!

Look, it's simple. You don't have to show up for class. There is no mandatory attendance, this is not high school we're talking about.
You are also no longer forced by law to go to school. Supposedly, you're there because you, at one point, decided that to be in your best interests.

Congatulations!
Now if you want to attend class, attend class.
If you want to drink coffee, chat with friends, surf the web, play games, whatever...

Go ahead! Have fun! Enjoy yourself! It won't cause you to fail automatically, it won't be held against you.
Just don't show up.

You know, I never go to parent-teacher meetings. It'd be kind of awkward -- I don't have any kids, so showing up at some school and being there is weird.

Well, showing up for class and just being there is also weird, awkward and not doing anyone a favour.

And don't give me bull, there's WiFi all over the place, and a college bench is definitely not the most comfortable place to game. Find an empty classroom, sit in the canteen, sit in the library, sit in the meeting hall, anywhere, just stay the hell away from people who are using a designated room for a designated purpose which you are not joining!!!

</rant>

If students aren't learning

[Anonymous Coward]

The test should make it obvious.

Don't punish all the students because some of them slack off.

They learn, or they fail. or they adapt.

Just like dealing with security

[tompaulco]

This sounds just like my company having to deal with security from multiple different clients who all believe security means different things. On the one hand, you have some colleges who want to ban laptops from classrooms. On the other hand, you have colleges which REQUIRE you to bring a laptop.
Sore subject anyway, as I just had to part with $1000 for a laptop for my college bound stepson. He was disappointed that I didn't spring for the 6GB of memory on one model and just got the base 3 GB. I'm sorry, but my own laptop only has 2 GB of memory and I run multiple applications including OCR, and I never even use the 2 GB. There is no point throwing spare battery power away keeping 4 GB of memory alive that is never going to be used for anything. Of course this is from the generation of kids who go through a computer class in high school and come out knowing how to surf for porn and how to burn illegally downloaded music and games, but not know that Microsoft Word would be an example of a program to use for writing a document.

More than one side to the argument

[Anonymous Coward]

At my very first lecture at the university my lecturer (he wasn't a professor) said to the class: "The traditional lecture with notetaking is the worlds most inefficient Xerox machine". In that class we were 250+ students. Of course he had a point. It is stupid that 250 people write down exactly what he has written on a blackboard or a slide.

We were instead given/sold printouts of all the slides in the course, and notetaking was just that, notes in the margin to clarify the slide for you. Most of the time, I didn't need to make any notes. On the second year I started as an teaching assistant in that class and it was a pleasure to teach. This was the pre-laptop era and the students were really involved in the discussions and problem solving.

I would find it hard to teach if the student paid more attention to their laptop than to the teacher or the class. Notetaking is one thing but during my university years I found that I personally learned most when i listened to the lecturer, asked questions and tried to be an active part of the class. Writing too extensive notes or doing something else prevents me from that.

The argument that several posters have reiterated, "they only hurt themselves" is not true in my eyes. As a teacher I find that teaching 10 people is different from teaching 100. So if you have a full hall with hundreds of students I would hold the lecture in one way. But if only 10 or 20% are actually "there" I would hold it in a slightly different manner.

The bottom line is: if you don't want to be there, don't! No one is forcing you (well most of the time at least, counting attendance is stupid IMHO). If you want to study the course at your own pace in private, do so. Leave the lectures to those that WANT to be there and learn, not only from the professor/lecturer, but also the fellow students that are actively being a part of that very lecture.

If you want to play with your computer, do it somewhere else. I can think of hundreds of places I would rather be, fooling around with my computer, than in a lecture hall during class.

Those of you that take extensive notes on the laptop and can refrain from using the computer for other purposes during class, continue if that works for you. As long as you don't disturb the other students. But I would urge you to try to take less notes and think more of what you are writing down. Using a pencil will, for most people, do so as you usually cannot write as quick as with a keyboard and must therefore selectively choose what to write down, sorting the information on the way.

Also, written notes sometimes must be re-written "cleanly", that repetition is a good way of learning.

There is more than one way to do it, but too many put too much faith in the laptops today (and others are to weakminded to resist their other uses).

Re:Ban teaching by powerpoint before you ban lapto

[dcollins]

"My girlfriend recently went back to school and almost every class is taught by powerpoint presentation which nearly begs the students to bring in their laptops. If you want to ban the laptop then ban the lazy practice of teaching by powerpoint..."

I'm down with that. However, at a prior school where I used to teach, the dean held a meeting where he quasi-demanded that we use PowerPoint because (a) it made us look futuristic, and (b) it showed off all the fancy the projectors & screens they'd bought recently.

Re:First Post

[jesset77]

Firstly Bob, I'd like to thank you for leading me to the insightful (if tangential) Broken Window Fallacy above, I've bookmarked that. But..

Second, and most importantly, it isn't real money. People get these things called 'student loans'. It isn't as if you can get those and invest the funds into the stock market. You kind of need to be a student.

I beg to differ. The only kind of "money" that can ever be called "not real" is that which does not circulate. These Student Loans represent real money, the real money you have to pay them back with. The real money that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy. The real money you have to earn in addition to living expenses over the few decades after graduation. Plus a little bit more real money which represents the interest.

Why would "paying for college in cash" matter? You will eventually pay for it. Nothing aside from Grants, Scholarships, Charity or Wealthy Relatives will influence that equation. I should know: I just finished paying off mine.

Find me the high school guidance counselor that recommends skipping college.

Find me the state employee who is allowed to keep his job by offering official advice to clients that doesn't pump money back into the state.

The fact of the matter is that, at this time, university education is simply not cost effective: the average college graduate will not earn enough marginal salary throughout the remainder of his life to pay off the debts they will incur: unless someone else is literally paying for them to attend. [1]

You might say "good luck finding a job", but it's easier to find a job which covers your living expenses when you aren't nursing a quarter million dollars of debt, without even owning a house to justify it.

Re:First Post

[jdbuz]

Sure, individuals need to practice self control but there was an interesting feature article in the May-June 2006 issue of American Scientist, "The Allure of Fast-Paced Pictures", which was really more about interesting pictures and the brains natural tendency to focus on them. Blame your opioid receptors. A conclusion from this study would be that the people behind you are simply hard-wired to look at - at least for some period of time - your interesting, colorful, perhaps moving pictures instead of paying attention to the professor. It's hard to look away from the thing darting across the field, a TV or your neighbor's facebook page.

Last Time I Checked

[OrwellianLurker]

I pay to go to college. My GPA is close to 4.0. In my economics class, my professor follows rules established by fellow professors that dictate the banning of laptops in class. I can type faster than I can write, I can search for things related to our discussion, I can look up my professor's power points, etc. It's so stupid that I'm limited because they don't want us to "waste our time." The students that want to waste their time shouldn't be bothered. If they fail, that's their fault. Don't handicap me because some jackass can't pay attention. College is reminding me more and more of public school with this crap.

What?

[PhasmatisApparatus]

Unlike many of the people posting here, I am actually in classes in which people bring laptops, and use them to watch youtube, play WoW, and Facebook. However, I don't find myself distracted one bit. If you find that you cannot divert your gaze from the excess flashiness of someone's game of WoW, or the boring details of their Facebook friends, then you have bigger problems than your classmates. Also, why should the professor care if people are paying attention to him? It's their money. Oh yes it is, even with financial aid. Do you really think they are going to continue paying for your education when you start failing classes? I think not.
Aside from those obvious points, there remains the many ways that laptops in class can help. For example, I've taken a laptop to one class in order to use wikipedia to fill in various details missed in the sporadic and rambling lectures of some professors. I download the powerpoint slides used by the professors so I don't have to strain my eyes trying to read badly-focused projected text from the back row (I sit in the back row to avoid distracting people, and I hate it when people look over my shoulder anyway).
Luckily, the students still hold enough of a say at the university I am attending that such ridiculous measures would never fly. But if my professors DID demand that laptops be absent from the lectures, I would be one of the few to actually be affected. Those now playing MMORPGs and Facebook games would simply find another source of distraction - perhaps cellphones (remember those? I hear they have 3D networked games and Facebook now. Amazing.) Those distracted by the laptops of others will simply find some spot of dust on the wall to attract their attention, and still not learn anything.

Re:First Post

[sonicmerlin]

If processors were serious about making the learning environment better

Say what now?

Re:First Post

[sonicmerlin]

I meant to mod you insightful but I posted before modding. So anyways I'll just write it out: everything you said is perfectly spot on. I myself am a highly visual learner and it drives me nuts when professors lecture on some new or complicated topic and expect you to take notes at the same time. It's just not possible. It takes all my concentration to understand what they're saying, and taking good notes is just not going to happen.

Part of the reason I end up writing a practical transcript when I type "notes" is because that way I don't have to think about what I'm writing, and can focus a little more on understanding what is being said.

Re:First Post

[gumbi west]

Did it ever occur to you that it might be valid for the teacher to try to teach you two things at once: (1) how to be a student of their subject, (2) their subject?

Re:First Post

[dgatwood]

D'oh!

Erm... professors....

I guess it's only a matter of time before they're replaced by processors, but it hasn't happened yet.

It's called "a choice"

[lpq]

You have a choice of what to do with your computer or doodling equipment. If you want to learn, you learn -- if you don't, why are professors trying to force students to learn the way they want them to. Either they will learn it and if the professor is any good, his tests will turn up who knows it and who doesn't How much attention you pay while a professor is blabbing in Slow motion, in front, is irrelevant. Are you learning the material and can you perform.

Anything else should be inconsequential.

Get them out of the classroom.

[X.mpls]

90% of the people I see with laptops aren't using them in any academic capacity. Some people get caught in this mentality that they're somehow learning even though they're on Facebook or slashdot while in lecture -- I do laugh when I see people googling or "wikipedia-ing" an event or concept that has been referenced by the professor. However, these people are distracting to other people (in what clearly is already an unexciting class) by bright flashes and the incessant pitter-patter of acrylic. The response, "it's nobody's choice but the students" is problematic because they are frequently disturbing other people. If it weren't for rules about using cell phones in libraries, I wouldn't be able to study in the quiet anywhere. The line has to be drawn once people push a privilege too far. Students have gone too far. I used to bring my laptop to class freshmen year until I caught myself frequenting websites instead of paying attention. I am not opposed to disabled students using laptops. I am opposed to the masses who use their laptops to occupy themselves while they trick themselves into thinking they're upholding their duty as students.

Slight disagreement

[NotSoHeavyD3]

I largely base this on my university experience of course. (A large research university.) My school made it very obvious that when it came to undergrad education that they simply didn't care one way or the other. (Hence my joke that when they heard that old saw about the difference between a college and a university they thought it was the best thing they ever heard.) I mean when you literally take a course from a professor who can't even explain how he comes up with your grade you just have to shake your head.(This was a well respected philosphy professor for what it's worth and is apparently a big name. He literally couldn't tell you how much anything was worth since he was just making it up as the semester went along.) So in their case it made no difference if undergrads failed since they were concerned with prestige and you got that from doing kick ass research or famous professors. (Which causes smart undergrads to show up like hornets on a soda.)

Idiotic

[Andtalath]

It's your own duty to perform in class, not your professors.
If someone can't focus enough in class with a laptop, they have made a poor choice on implement to help them study, but it doesn't mean that everyone should be punished for those actions.

Heck, it takes less effort to me to type then it does to write with pencil, I hardly ever use a pen but I type a whole lot, making it way easier for me to do it while doing other things.
I've carried on normal conversations while I chatted with people on the internet, no-one of them seemed to notice any lack of attention on my part.
With a pencil, I definitely can't talk, I can't look away and errors are annoying to correct.

The best profession since dictator

[Modern Primate]

Being a professor is one of the few professions where you get to charge someone for something and then act like you're the boss. They seem to forget that they are being paid by the student. If the student chooses to sit in the room and ignore the professor, it's the student's (or the parents') money that's being wasted, not the professor's. Imagine hiring a plumber who insisted on this level of authority. As long as it's not something that makes noise or is otherwise obtrusive to the other students, the professor should have nothing to say about it. Ultimately this is just an ego trip on the part of the professor. Nothing more.

reverse the problem virtual university

[max847]

why not just move the school lock stock and barrel into a virtual environment? it would be a MUCH more effecient use of our tax dollers and be a much more powerful learning tool than some dry monotone teacher want to learn french hop in a teleporter and pop over to a virtual france want to study mars take a shuttle and walk on its virtual surface. want to study shakespear or a past president? pop into a time portal and go visit them. you can even have a traditional university location with much more powerful learning tools that would be far too expensive or impossible to aquire in a real school. so is this a godd idea? bad? why?

What about those that *need* this though

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in HE, and we have some kids that *have* to use laptops - cause they're dys-something-or-other (thick as two short planks/brought up poorly).

Not only that but because the little angels also need to use certain background colours in Word etc, they're given these laptops.

this doesn't need a subject but one is required

[dgposey]

I'm a recent comp sci grad and I went the entire time through college taking notes with pen and paper, as did everybody else at my college. I pulled out my laptop once in a comp sci class and got strange looks...

Re: Doesn't matter...

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I checked the students were the paying customer and the professor was the provider. It's not up to professors or the institutions to dictate what any student does or doesn't do with their in or out of lectures. This is not grade school anymore. If it annoys other students then that could be a problem. But the professor has no say in it.

Ban The Brain

[jman.org]

As an approach to solving a problem, this one uses a sledgehammer where a scalpel would be more effective.

Want to keep students from surfing/twittering/ewe-tubing/etc. while in class? DISABLE THEIR WIFI. It would cost a few bucks to shield the classrooms, but easily doable.

Worried about students "typing a lecture verbatim"? Surely at least one professor out there is old enough to remember shorthand.

This is the same old, tired story, blaming the tool for its use. The true problem is the worker-bee/lazy oaf cycle that human generations always go through. We're in the former now. We'll be back on track in a bit.

Which is NOT to say, of course that ALL students are lazy! It's just the general pattern of the generational cycle.

Re:Ban The Brain

[jman.org]

...and of course, if I wasn't so lazy in failing to proof before clicking 'submit', I would have used the word 'latter' instead...

Boredom Training

[Anonymous Coward]

I found that being bored to tears by professors while they ramble on about the intricacies of NP completeness was good training for sitting in boring meetings while other people ramble on about cost savings and increased revenue.

Distractions?

[Explodicle]

I've had ADHD my entire life. While I was in college (not too long ago, people had laptops) know what I did? Showed up on time and sat near the front. It's amazing how easy it is to avoid distraction when the professor is right there, with no laptops in between you.

I'm sure plenty of people have an excuse as to why they can't sit near the front or why that's not good enough, but it comes down to taking personal responsibility for your own education and saving the excuses for the professional world. :-P