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Ask Slashdot: Does Being 'Loyal' Pay As a Developer?
An anonymous reader writes "As a senior developer for a small IT company based in the UK that is about to release their flagship project, I know that if I were to leave the company now, it would cause them some very big problems. I'm currently training the other two 'junior' developers, trying to bring them up to speed with our products. Unfortunately, they are still a long way from grasping the technologies used – not to mention the 'interesting' job the outsourced developers managed to make of the code. Usually, I would never have considered leaving at such a crucial time; I've been at the company for several years and consider many of my colleagues, including higher management, to be friends. However, I have been approached by another company that is much bigger, and they have offered me a pay rise of £7k to do the same job, plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life. That said, I can't help but feel that to leave now would be betraying my friends and colleagues. Some friends have told me that I'm just being 'soft' – however I think I'm being loyal. Any advice?"
Always a shitty situation. Sometimes I think you can grow with a company.. they get bigger, can pay you more/give you better opportunities. In most cases though, it seems that eventually you outgrow a small company. You grow faster than they do, and gradually the outside offers get more and more tempting.
This kind of thing is hard for me, because I have the same “leaving now would screw these guys” kind of thinking. You’ll be hearing from the “business is business, do what’s best for you, they’d drop you in a heartbeat if they could save a buck” crowd soon enough.
The only thing I can say is that people are usually not as critical as would seem. I’ve been amazed on several occasions at how quickly someone I would describe as “if we lose him we are screwed” is replaced. People step up and figure shit out. It is rocky, and will cause headaches, but eventually people make it work.
Take the new job and laugh all the way to the bank. Seriously, just give them notice, and take the new job.
...it's the fear of the unknown. What if it's not as good as it looks? If you're making more money and gaining an hour and a half every day it's a no brainer.
Ask yourself what they'd do if somebody came along and offered to do your job for 7 grand less.
WIll you feel all right with yourself if you left? If so, go for it.
You have to remember that your company has no loyalty to you. If their revenues drop and they have to save money, your job will be on the line!
Always do whats best for you and yours (family).
Ask for a raise, see if you get it.
Loyalty is a consideration - but first comes paying the bills. Are you happy and satisfied with where you work, and your style of living? Would the 7k increase be worth it for you, to switch, and leave them where they are? Company is about risks and resources, if they don't manage their resources and take a risk at loosing something that is important and even key to what they are doing, it is their problem, not yours.
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Change is good and the commute alone should make your life better, increase in salary or not. Also, you will get to leave behind all the crap you used to do/support and start fresh. Do it!
NO
It sounds like a deal you shouldn't pass up. And I admire your loyalty. Your new employer will appreciate your loyalty, too, when you explain to them how you still need to help your old company out.
I am sure they would accommodate your working with your old employer until they can get on their feet once again. Perhaps telecommute some, or work at the old job a few days a week.
If they had objections to that, I would question wanting to work for them...
Loyalty means nothing in the new corporate century.
Believe me, they'll sell YOU out if/when they have the chance. Do what you think is right but make sure you don't hurt yourself.
plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life.
The commute alone is worth switching for. That's an (unpaid) hour and a half of your life that you get back.
Loyalty to your employer? Are you kidding? They would fire your ass in a heartbeat as soon as the numbers exhibit a downturn. Our parents' generation could rely on employers to consider loyalty a two-way street; you don't job surf and they give you all kinds of benefits including pensions, profit sharing, and so on. Now, decision makers don't think twice about firing thousands of workers when the numbers take a temporary dip, just so they can show shareholders a temporary spike in profits to get their bonuses.
Besides, do you live to work, or do you work to live?
Fuck loyalty to your employer. Take the better offer.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Not sure about your side of the pond, but over here, employers show 0 loyalty to employees, so why should we as staff do any different? For 7000 quid (about US $13000) and the improvements in lifestyle, and presumably better job security, I'd jump ship in a heartbeat.
Either way, you should document the hell out of everything so that if you were hit by a bus tomorrow they wouldn't be similarly fucked.
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Assuming that all contractual obligations have been met, you've exchanged your work for their money. If you no longer wish to exchange your work for their money, that's no problem. Rest assured, if they no longer wanted to exchange their money for your work, they'd have no problem terminating that little arrangement.
Besides, there are ways of arranging for exclusivity. In many fields, they're codified. Retainers, tenure, whatever. If they wanted to keep you for a fixed amount of time, they'd have entered into contractual negotiations with you.
If you want to leave, leave. Just make sure you follow the legal and standard practices; two weeks notice or whatever it is across the pond.
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I've just been in a similar situation, it's a tough decision to make but you have to do what is best for you. i personally handed my notice in and i've been replaced in the short term by two contractors. whilst they shop around to find the right perm developer.
A clear cognition of the separation between friendship, business, and your quality of life needs aught to help you make a good decision.
Follow your heart!
Life is too short for you to fuss over things that are secondary to you. You need to figure out what your priorities are, and to act accordingly.
If you really want that short commute to work, you can move. If you really want that higher salary, you can invite your current employer to bid against your potential employer. If your coworkers are really like family to you, then you should stay regardless. But if not...well....consequences to your real family should rank higher than consequences to your fake one.
Figure out what is real to you, and everything else is easy.
Send the link to your boss, congratulations on your 7k pay raise, or else just go, I hate driving too haha
Why wouldn't you? You have no guarantees that after the two Jr Devs get up to speed, they don't get rid of you (surely they are making less). The company would also have no qualms about laying you off if they need to - it's only business.
If upper mgmt were REALLY your friends, they would want what's best for you. If they are bitter about you leaving, then they are not really your friends.
Ultimately, you need to do what's best for YOU.
Leverage this situation for a raise. Politely, of course, but go to your boss and say "here's the situation, I'd like to stay, I think I'm providing value to the company, but this pays more with shorter commute, etc etc." Before you do this, answer the question for yourself: what is the minimum that they need to provide for me to be willing to stay? And then go in asking for more than that so you have room.
If they are your friends, they will understand. If not, then you've lost nothing.
The days of secure employment are long over, and management will eliminate your role if it makes financial sense to. You should stay "loyal" only insofar as that the employment is mutually beneficial and both sides get good value of the other.
Doing the Right Thing should not be preempted by making a buck.
Why not take the new job & act as a consultant on the old job?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
Thats the first lesson i learned. Every software engineer has to learn how to be HARD. At the end of the day, you go where, home? or with your boss?
And you said it already what your boss thinks about you (he outsourced, or is trying to do it), so as soon as he manages to offset your job, you will be FIRED.
Dont forget, business as usual.
You should talk to your employer, be open and honest about the fact that, although you care about the job you're doing right now, and although you know how your leaving them would be inconvenient, you just can't turn down the money. Then let the negotiations begin!
Rule 1: Always do what is best for you. The company has no loyalty what so ever to you. Individual managers may have loyalty but the 'company' has none. Rule 2: Never burn your bridges. Leave on the best good will terms possible.
If they really mean something to you, offer them nice terms on a transition contract. Make sure the contract doesn't F you tho.
Does the company reward loyalty? If the shoe was on the other foot and times were tough, would they take into account your work and loyalty and try to keep you on?
Honestly, I doubt they give a second thought to your loyalty. The times when it was a good idea to be loyal to an employer are by and large long since gone. They are only looking at their bottom line, you basically have to do the same.
Company loyalty now really only comes back to bite you in the ass, there is no benefit for the employee.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
this means they're not paying you enough; therefore you should see if they'll match what the other company will offer. dunno what you could do about the 90 mins travel time though
SURELY NOT!!!!!
Let that flagship product ship. Re-evaluate whether you have a future with the company afterwards, not before!! And consider that community is ALWAYS important. But don't forget to get the inside scoop on the financial situation of any company you are in or researching, if you can! Don't want to be stuck on a sinking ship.
In this market, an opportunity like that.. It is worth it. and loyalty is good and all.. so is self preservence..
agreed. you should only be loyal to yourself just like the company you work for. corporations are sociopaths.
Loyalty never pays in the modern corporate world, the financial aspect of this decision is easy. It's a moral decision you have to make, so do whatever you feel is right.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
If you play loyal, not only are you going to get paid half of the others eventually, but also,one day you'll be fired. You being loyal doesn't mean you are going to be treated any special. When that happens, having been employed at the same place for 20 years will look bad on your resumee, and you'll have trouble getting a new job. Do not make that mistake, it's the kind of errors that can result in suicide down the road.
1) They would drop you in a heart beat if someone offered to do it cheaper (and could do the job)
2) You have no idea if their product is going to be successful. It might be incredibly popular, and they might pay you _a lot_ more if it is. But more likely, it will fail and you'll be out of a job soon. And even if it is moderately successful, they don't owe you anything -- and chances are they aren't going to pay you extra for doing your job.
3) Businesses don't have loyalty to anyone. If you really think you're so central to their business, tell them you got another offer, and ask for more money. Most likely, they'll tell you good luck at your new job.. and they hire someone new within a week to replace you.
I own a small business.. had an employee I thought was incredibly important.. that it would fail if he ever quit. Well he eventually did quit, and within a month I had new automated equipment up and running doing the same job.
The business will learn to do without you.
So do what's best for yourself.
The only loyalty you need to have is to yourself and your family. No company would show you the same loyalty you seem to have for them. If it meant that the next quarter they would be able to show a rise in profits, they would show up at your cubicle with boxes and a pink slip an hour from now with no thought about the predicament that would leave you and your family in.
If you have an opportunity to do something you like, for more money, closer to home, then you should make the change if that is what is best for you and your family without regard to the position it leaves your current company in. That is not to say that you you won't give them two weeks notice (or the UK equivalent) and offer to 'consult' should they need help beyond that if you want, but do what is best for you - period.
They would show you zero iotas of loyalty if it was in their best interest. Walk away, take the better job, and don't look back. It's just business. Don't make the mistake of confusing it for something different.
We who were living are now dying
With a little patience
www.fastcompany.com/magazine/10/brandyou.html
7k more and 45 minutes less? Go get your new job now. You have only a contract with your company, they're not your parents or children or friends so you've been as loyal as you're are supposed to do. You'll still be able to see your colleagues you are friend with, I've been through that and done it.
That depends. IT (at least in Canada) is a fairly small community. There is tremendous value in a good reference, so if you leave, I would do so with respect and not seriously piss your former employer off. This includes helping them transition your knowledge to your successor.
Having said this, "there is nothing so short lived as the gratitude of kings". Don't expect sacrifice and loyalty to be returned in the long term. You should do what's right for you. The days where you took care of the company and the company took care of you are long gone. For most CEOs, "it's just business"...
This is 2011, not 1911. Loyalty is rewarded with more work, not more pay. When you reach the point where you could easily perform your boss' job, your reward will be a layoff.
The days of slowly but surely climbing the corporate ladder on one's own merit are long gone. The name of the game today is "networking" (i.e. social expertise).
I'd go into a closed-door meeting with management and say "I've been offered a position at another company making 7k more and with a much shorter commute, but I like working here. What can you offer me?" If they aren't willing to play ball, give notice. At that point, they may try to make an offer - unless it's even more than the 7k, don't accept; they'll always be looking to replace you. If they make you a reasonable offer, take it and enjoy your new old job.
Truck driver, plumber, Linux systems engineer.
£7k doesn't seem like much. Look at what you think you'll be doing in 5 years with each company...
If you have no doubt that your skills are worth the extra money and that 'big' company is unlikely to be in difficult financial straights the next few years, make the move. Try your best not to burn bridges and you are probably best off speaking about the quality of life issues rather than the money if pressed by your current employer who may well match or do some other nice thing for you. But this sounds like it is as much about money as it is location, and money will not offset 1.5 to 2 hours a day commuting. Loyalty is a very nebulous thing now a days.
I was going to side with you on the loyalty argument, until I read that your employer outsources (some of) their programming. What does that say about their commitment to loyalty? On the one hand, it helps to maintain a good network of industry contacts for the long-term good of your career. On the other hand, it *is* possible to maintain a good relationship with your old co-workers, while simultaneously "looking out for number one".
Is you leaving going to be *difficult*, or will it break their entire business? That is, you can rest easy if you cause a bit of inconvenience, but just try not to screw them too badly: ask your new employer if you can have a couple of weeks before you officially start; or a "transition period" where you can remain on-call (e.g. a half-day a week when needed) to the old team.
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Not to be confused with Col.
Loyalty is the lube that makes your current position less uncomfortable. Jump ship. In my experience loyalty is not rewarded among developers as management tend to see devs as an interchangeable commodity.
This looks like the typical situation of company A trying to fuck over company B, just when company B is about to release a product. Company A won't be wanting to help you out, but simply get you away from company B. They probably won't treat you any better, if not worse.
I'd stay until the project is complete - explain that to company B. If they don't appreciate that, then they don't really want you that badly.
Seen this happen before to other people, and happen to myself. In the long term, having worked on a project from start to finish counts more than leaving half-way through. Who knows, it might be get bought out by a large company.
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Tell your current company about the offer, and see if you get a counter-offer.
(and if they don't counter, you know how you're valued. Leave.)
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I've seen many people who seemed extremely critical leave. Once we had someone leave who convinced a couple of others to jump as well. Others fill in the gap (amazing how quickly some people learn when they *really* need to), new talent is hired. Take the new job, enjoy the 7.5 hours a week of more time, invest the money and meet your old pals at the pub.
If you'd feel bad about leaving, give your current employer a chance to respond to the offer. Maybe they'll come up with an interesting solution, like letting you telecommute a couple of days per week.
If they're not willing to bend, then you'll know what your "loyalty" is worth and not have to feel bad about making the choice that's best for you.
I'll just cite the Quote of the day, at the bottom of this page:
"In any formula, constants (especially those obtained from handbooks) are to be treated as variables."
Being loyal buys you being stuck at the same salary and benefits level for a decade. You'll see much better advancement if you're a whore. Back in the 90's during the tech bubble in the USA you could change contracting companies like you change your underwear (At least once ever 6 months!) and pick up a $10K a year pay raise each time. Since the tech bubble burst that's slowed down a bit here, and a lot of the incompetent ones fell out of the market. You could probably work that craze in India until the tech companies find some new outsourcing darling country (Greece and Iraq are who I'm thinking are next.)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
To be honest, in your shoes I'd take the new job for the same pay if it would gain me an hour and a half per day in commuting time - my time is worth a lot to me!
As for loyalty, ultimately the company you work for shouldn't be in a position where if you leave, they'll be fucked. If they are, they'll learn a valuable lesson in managing risk. What if you got hit by a bus or suffered a sudden heart attack? At least this way they get your notice period to bring other people up to speed.
However, I have been approached by another company that is much bigger, and they have offered me a pay rise of £7k to do the same job, plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life .
Those last two words are the important bit. You need to decide what is important in YOUR life. Quality of life is very important. Rejecting anyone is a painful experience and that includes companies you work for.
If you are going to burn bridges, think hard about whether it is worth it but then make your decision and don't look back. There are no guarantees for you or from either company. If the new job seems like a secure gig and it will improve your quality of life I'd consider it. Look VERY carefully at the corporate culture and the people you'll be working with. That is usually what makes or breaks a job.
Some friends have told me that I'm just being 'soft' – however I think I'm being loyal. Any advice?"
You are being soft though that might not be a bad thing. It means you are probably a considerate and decent person. Don't let that stop you from doing what is best for you though.
Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get.
So you're loyal to your company. Great. How loyal are they to you?
Do they pay you at or above what you could make elsewhere?
Do they do their best to schedule things so that you're not constantly working death-march overtime?
Do they respect you and your contributions?
Do they lay people off only when they absolutely have to, or whenever doing so could goose their quarterly numbers?
Loyalty is great. Loyalty is undervalued. But loyalty has to be earned, and while you've told us you're loyal to your company you haven't given us any reasons why, so we can't judge whether your loyalty is misplaced or not. The one reason you gave is that you consider some of your current managers to be friends, and that's great, but I can tell you from experience that just because a manager is your friend doesn't necessarily mean that he won't lay your ass off in a hot minute if he thinks he can benefit by doing so. There are lots of people who put the "business" part of "business friendships" first and foremost.
If this company has earned your loyalty -- if they've gone above and beyond to treat you with the respect you deserve -- then by all means return that loyalty. If it's just a place you've worked for a few years, though, then in the long run you'll do better to look out for number one and save your loyalty for people who deserve it.
Read my blog.
Even a crap job is tolerable if the people are decent and the money is fair. Loyalty is due where loyalty is repaid. Granted, employment contracts and Non-Compete clauses always limit and grate, but is where you are now giving/getting you what you want? Will the green grass over the fence do better for you in the long run? Do you accept the burdens of those changes in the short run?
It can be pretty cheesy to attempt to "measure" your friendship, much less deliberately test it, but if you feel you're part of something larger (and a good part at that), then you don't even need to ask the question.
It's the old 4-panel plan problem. Take a sheet of paper, fold it in four, and mark them 6, 12, 5, 100. Then list things you want to do in the next 6 weeks, 12 months, 5 years, and 100 years. Review it carefully. The 6/12/5 items should lead somehow to the 100 year items. Climb a mountain? Sure! Learn mountain climbing? Yeah, I can do that in 5 years easy. Ah -- get fit first. Yep, can start that this year. Six weeks to find a good trainer -- can do!
So -- where are you going, and and is where you are (or wish you were) part of getting there?
Pacifist paratroopers yell, "Ghandi!" when they jump.
The real solution is to search slashdot for the last 5k times that this question has been asked. Some of the answers are really good.
*sigh*
Does Being 'Loyal' Pay As a Developer?
No
1. Tell the new employer that you'd like to give a longer-than-usual notice to your current employer
2. Figure out between you and your new employer what length of time is reasonable
3. Tell your old employer that you're leaving, but that you're giving them this extended notice
4. Make the move
Hopefully when you're looking for the next job after this one your current employer will remember that you did them a favor, because that's who you'll likely be using as a reference and not these new people you're talking to now. And even if they forget that you were nice to them on the way out, you'll still know that you did "the right thing" (and not "the sucker thing" by staying forever just because they weren't smart enough to make people slightly redundant)
You have to ask yourself: is the company currently worth being loyal to?
All too often, people seem to think that loyalty is, in and of itself, something you should strive for. It's not. Being mindlessly loyal is just plain dumb; the things you choose to be loyal to should, in some way, be worthy of that loyalty.
Your current company doesn't seem like it really cares about being worthy of your loyalty. I'm sure their flagship product was shipped out overseas against your recommendation, if they even bothered to ask (and that's entirely ignoring the incredibad business decision of outsourcing a core product), which just indicates that they don't really care.
Also, if another company is willing to try and snipe you off with a raise, you're probably worth significantly more than what either of them are offering. I mean, just ask yourself - if I'm worth my salary + 7k (which is what another company is willing to pay for me right now), why hasn't my current company given me that raise? Because they're taking advantage of your "loyalty".
Finally, the fact that they've given you two junior devs to train up at this juncture kinda sounds like they've decided that you're too much of a senior dev, and they'd prefer to pay two junior salaries instead of one senior salary. This is, of course, conjecture, but this sort of behavior is not at all unknown in business.
So yeah, it really seems like there's no reason to be loyal to the company, even though there may be people in the company who are worthwhile. What has the company done recently to be worthy of your loyalty? Keep in mind that your current salary is in exchange for your work, if they want your loyalty they have to do more.
If the shoe was on the other foot, what would happen? If your current employer *thought* they could turn a bigger profit by replacing/eliminating you, would they?
That should answer your question.
When has any company been loyal to its employees? In my experience they will not hesitate in if they had to get rid of you.
Business is Business and it goes both ways.
The part that concerns me is the part about the "interesting" code from outsourcing. Having spent too much time with "interesting" code I would suggest that if you are not in a position where you can ensure that it is made less interesting then your days are already numbered and it's time to vote with your feet.
I didn't realize UK developers made so little that a ~10k USD raise would be that tempting to a senior dev. Not trying to throw stones, it is just the UK devs i have worked with actually made a lot more than that.
My advice:
Do what you love. Make sure that much is true, no matter what you do. More money isn't worth it.
Pursue new opportunities, whenever you can. Mix things up. Internally at your current place, or externally if you have to leave to get the new challenge.
Don't let yourself get idle and waste away with boredom for fear of the unknown.
Exploit new opportunities.
If the new place has a good reputation, GO. Don't take the counter offer. Just GO.
Loyalty is mostly misplaced in the modern corporate world. However, it might be worthwhile to tie up your current project, and then go hunting. A bold move would be a nationwide hunt, and not just one next door.
Some part of you wants to be comfortable, and the unknown is uncomfortable. Big changes are uncomfortable. Look that in the eye.
Many people go through their entire lives not looking themselves in the eye.
So to speak.
C//
Take the raise. Discuss it with your boss if you wish. Your entire moral obligation is discharged with two weeks' notice.
Since the raise is tempting (7k would be less than 2% for me), that means you're the sort of person who should take the raise.
A more mature developer would concentrate on which work gave the most scope to developing his skills, and then insist on getting the raise and that work.
If your company could hire someone else equally qualified, experienced and competent to do your work for £7k less, would they have any qualms firing you? What about £15k? Outsource it to India for 15% of the cost?
You are in a purely transactional relationship. You provide knowledge and hard work, and you get paid in money, prestige and satisfaction. That's it. It's your company, not your parent or sibling or friend or spouse - you 'owe' it no loyalty beyond that transactional relationship (and even personal relationships break down when they don't work out....). You wouldn't think twice about switching if someone opened up a new grocery store that was closer to your home and offered the same products for a lower price. Why is this different?
Do yourself a favour, mate. Go get the £7k + 7.5 hours of your life (almost a full work day on its own!) per week back. Good luck!
Karma fed to this user will be promptly burnt. Be warned; be wary.
Flee! Flee while you still can!
Seriously, though, you should talk to them (your current employer). Explain the situation, and give them the chance to make it worth your while to stay. See if they want you badly enough to pay for it. The results, either way, may surprise you and make your choice very much more clear.
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
Always leave. Don't give them a chance to match. They've had a chance match the entire time you've been working for them.
The reality is, you must move on to move up. Trust me. Not only to expand your income, but also to increase resume/job experience and soft skills. By moving on, you'll be exposing yourself to new people and processes. Another great chance to learn. I suspect your've peaked and your "learning" days at your new job are done.
The catalyst for a career is movement.
I've been in the IT world for over 15 years and I can tell you that the world is a very small place. As prior posters have said, the 'business' may not care but the people you work with do care if you make their jobs harder. As you move up in the world, make more contacts, get your name known then the cost of leaving a company can be expensive in ways you didn't imagine when you were just a grunt. Be sure not to burn any bridges that you may need to cross later in your career.
But that said, it might mean something to you. If you feel better about yourself remaining where you are than you would leaving your current employer high and dry in exchange for a higher salary, then that peace of mind is certainly of great value, and the guilt you may feel at your new job if you were to leave your current one could even adversely affect your capabilities.
It is, of course, ultimately up to you.... How do *YOU* feel about leaving your current job? Would you regret leaving if it turned out that your former employer had difficulties after your absence? Is that even likely? If it were to happen, weigh its probability against how much you would likely regret not taking the new job? If you can answer these questions for yourself, you will have arrived at the most sensible course of action that you can take with the knowledge that you have now.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I can only speak about the US. Generally, companies work at retaining people through various means:
1. Severance Package: You won't get a severance package at your new job until you are vested, in the US at least. That means getting through you probationary period. Severance packages are always much better than our pitiful US unemployment insurance, which they are always making more humiliating to access and more difficult to collect. How much are you giving up to change jobs?
2. Perks: These can be things as simple as having a relaxed work environment, versus being in a pressure cooker. You seem happy where you are, will the new job burn you out in a few months?
3. Communication: Does the company surprise you with bad news, or does it keep you in the loop?
A 7k raise doesn't mean much if they get rid of you in a couple of months.
"MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
I agree with most of the comments suggesting that it is a business decision and there is no loyalty on the part of the company. However, that is based on my experiences with US corporation values. I don't know what the culture is like where the OP resides or at the OP's company, and the culture does make a difference. If your company has displayed loyalty to its employees, then you should factor that in, but don't let it be the only factor. If you have seen your company show a lack of loyalty, then factor that in. The out-sourcing of coding makes me lean in the 'loyalty not that important' direction, though.
A friend once told me that "You have to be in it for yourself.".
If you decided to stay on, would this crucial time stop soon? Or as I suspect, go on forever. This situation actually is so close to what a couple of guys here are going through, I had to ask around if it was one of us who submitted it.
Guess it's time to jump ship.
Sure companies can be very uncaring and fire you just because they're numbers dip. But that usually only happens with giant companies. With a smaller company people tend to be closer to each other and loyalty can tend to go both ways. Just think about times where you've had to defend one of your staff to your boss. You don't think your boss might not defend you in the same way some times? How would you behave if you were in their position? If you were the boss and you think you'd fire somebody just because numbers dip, then don't look back and take the other job. If you were the boss and you'd be willing to take the hit just to keep loyal good people around, maybe you should stay.
And a 7k raise only works out to about 9 extra pounds per day (before tax!). Whoopee.
When your immediate usefulness is perceived to have ended, your "friends" would grind you up and sell you as dog food for a few extra pounds if they thought they could get a way with it.
Short answer? Don't be an idiot.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Have you gotten everything you need from this job, professionally, financially, and personally? Are you satisfied this move is the best choice for you to grow professionally?
If you want this other position, give your current employer proper notice, and work with them to make the transition as smooth as possible. You can even discuss the possibility of being available as a consultant for a while if they need.
On the other hand, you might look over the offer and decide the trade-offs aren't worth it. Sometimes, the increased money is accompanied by increased stress...longer commutes, longer hours, more demands on your personal life (e.g., being on call 24/7). An interesting and rewarding job that pays less might be the better option then.
Chances are, however, you're intrigued by a new challenge, a new beginning, and better pay. Why not take the leap?
Remember, in the end, you are replaceable. It's part of business. People get sick, hit by buses...or better offers. Leave gracefully, don't burn any bridges, and you can continue to stay friends with those co-workers with whom you are close.
Best wishes on your decision. In this economy, it's rare to have such a choice to make!
It's still possible to be loyal and yet move on. It may be that the new company would accept you working a longer notice period at your current employer (for example, if you're on 4 weeks ask if they'd wait 6 or even 8 for you)? That should be sufficient to ensure that the company can bring someone else in of a similar skill level to yourself, that the product can be handed over with minimal disruption, and you leave things in a stable situation.
It's your career, after all. Sometimes you do have to be selfish, otherwise you will never leave.
You think that your management is inside your circle of friends, but they would do anything for money. Maybe they wouldn't kill your grandmother, not sure. In business, this is called "making the hard decisions." You have to do it to manage people. In business, this is called "playing with the big boys."
You must quit your job now, because you have an unhealthy relationship with your coworkers and bosses. You will be badly hurt if they ever have to let you go, and it will take a long time to recover from it at a time when you will have to search for a job.
What you can do is this.
Take the new job, but tell your current employer for a limited time, you'll support them after hours for up to an hour a day (the hour you're currently losing to commuting). Overall, no net loss to your life, and in the end you gain an hour you didn't have before.
Losing the commute is very important. Not only do you get the hour of your life back, even if the new job had the same pay you're effectively gaining the money you'd have to spend on fuel and your car. Fuel prices are only set to go up. You might even be able to sell your car (which is a colossal expense), or if you're a 2 car family, you may be able to go down to a 1 car family.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
In my experience as a developer who has managed a department, trained "jr' developers on our product(s), and was "loyal to the end", I can tell you that you need to do what is best for you, now and down the road.
I put my time (too many hours), heart and soul into my job(s), and was close with upper management, etc.
What I found is: In the end, the company will do what it needs to, to survive/thrive at [almost] any expense -- including you and your job.
What you must do is find what is the best scenario for you to survive/thrive, and mostly enjoy going to work each day. Of course you want to balance your decision with factors such as burning bridges, making sure your new position has long-term stability, etc.
I wish you the best in your decision. I can only offer that you do what's best for you, and don't look back.
You will be on the chopping block the moment circumstances necessitate it.
Loyalty is considered to be a virtue for a reason(hominid life, up until the past few thousand years, and still in many places up to the present day has basically been a case of 'iterative prisoner's dilemma'. As it turns out, being a good guy by default, and only shafting the other guy if he has a history of shafting people works out for everyone fairly well.)
So, here's the question: if you job, by virtue of size/holding structure of company, psychological profile of leader figures, etc. is still small enough that its behavior is largely governed by "human" heuristics, loyalty can pay off. They will know who their loyal people are, value that, and your long-term payoff(especially if the product launch goes well) is likely to be good.
If the company is larger than a certain size, run by sociopaths, or otherwise no longer governed by conventional human logic, the management will still recognize "loyal" employees; but by "loyal" they mean "sucker who will stay around for more punishment, for illogical emotional reasons, until we suck him dry and throw his husk away". Bad situation...
That's the real trick. Being loyal to people is usually a pretty good idea. Being loyal to an organization or sociopath who considers you a "human resource" and your "loyalty" to be a form of primitive emotional weakness that makes you easier to exploit is always a terrible, terrible plan.
If your employer would(hypothetically), tell you to clean out your desk and instruct security not to let the door hit your worthless ass on the way out if you were to get sick and be expected to be less productive because of treatment/recovery for a period of time, then it is a fairly safe bet that you are just an "input" to them. If so, fuck-em. They'd fuck you over for money, and it looks like you've been handed the change to do unto them before they do unto you.
If, in that same hypothetical situation, they would exhibit care, understanding, concern, accomodation, etc, it is probable that they are the sort of entity that will recognize, value, and reciprocate loyalty...
I always find that the best way to give advice is to repeat back what people say. You said: "This would make a massive difference to my life." Is that true? If so, then the decision is obvious. In that vein, I would interpret your loyalty question as an emotional one: you are attached to where you work, you have put a lot of time and effort into your work. You are very proud of what you have accomplished and what you know. Those are all good things, but going back to the massive difference in your life, it sounds like it is time to move on. That's a good thing.
Put the situation to your current employers. At the very least they should match you the salary delta plus anything extra you would be saving by walking to work (remember to account for Tax and NI when figuring out that number). Really they should sweeten the deal in bit in view of the fact that you're more valuable to them because you have existing familiarity with the product/code base. Whereas the other employer would be getting you from fresh.
Your bosses probably aren't your friends. If they are then they will still be your friends after you left for more money. Simple as that.
Don't be afraid of burning bridges in this manner. If you're totally up front and a pro about this then if you do end up staying (presumably with more money) your employers will respect you more (even if they grumble at first).
I was in a similar situation. An opportunity came up that I couldn't ignore, but leaving my current company would have left them in a real bind. What did I do?
I gave them 1 months notice. I told the new company that that's the only way I would take the job and that I would probably do the same for them down the road. I actually think they were impressed by that. During that month I attended some meetings at the new company, did some "homework" and was already getting some stuff done for them before my official start date.
My old company asked if I'd mind doing some work for them now and then while they got up to speed on the things I was doing. I said as long it was something fairly quick, I'd be willing to do it.
Did I mention that this was during the dot-com bubble? Fast forward 5 months and my flashy new company had burned through all it's money. There was a buyer and what was supposedly a "done deal" fell apart at the last minute. Suddenly I was without a job. The collapse was one of the top stories in the business section of the local paper.
The next morning I get a call from my old boss: "I heard you might be looking for work."
Got a nice raise and have been there ever since. Don't burn bridges if you can avoid it.
Talk to your current employers, let them know the score.
If you're happy where you are, then you may just be taking a leap to somewhere more stifling (larger companies have a different feel to startups when you work there). That's an 'if' though, it may work better for you.
If they get shirty about the info, then you can always leave to the new job (no risk to you). If they really value you (and can afford it), maybe they'll match or exceed the new offer you have.
That's the thing with conversations, you rarely know how they'll end before you start them. You'll learn a lot by talking to your current employers, that'll direct your actions once you know the results.
In the old days, loyalty is important.
Today, loyalty is only important when the employer waves the flag as a reason to stay. Unfortunately, those very same managers will happily (perhaps sadly) cut you in about 17 milliseconds when the bean counters say "cut".
There is NOBODY who cares more about your career than you. You'd feel bad if you "left them in the lurch". Do you think they'll feel as bad when they hand you your box of stuff and a check? Hell no.
Here's what I'd do:
1. first and foremost, MAKE SURE THAT THE OTHER OFFER IS SOLID AND GUARANTEED, not "tentative". I'd want an offer on paper spelling out all the details.
2. be prepared to be walked out the door of your current job.
3. Talk to you manager and explain the situation. Do so first in cold hard facts; money, time, opportunity. Only then throw in the intangibles. One of three things will happen: a) you'll be walked out with your severance pay; b) you'll be told "sorry, can't"; or c) they'll make a counter offer. FWIW, them just paying 7K more isn't enough - remember the 1.5 hours of your day you'll get back. -THEY- expect to have the full use of your day; there's no reason you should get paid for 8 hours if your time committment is 11 hours. OTOH, everyone has some commute, so be flexible.
good luck!
I'm an employer. I've invested a huge amount of time and money in my people. Times are tough, so I'm not going around offering $10k raises indiscriminately. However, they are key people who I would pay that much to keep, and there would be bad blood if those people would have stayed after a round of negotiation but decided not to give me an opportunity to consider the situation.
Us bosses are not all unreasonable. Many of us have had to make tough decisions leaving one place for a better opportunity. I've actually had this conversation with each of my employees. I tell them: "if you are ever unhappy or you start feeling like the grass is greener somewhere else, let's talk about it. If the difference between keeping you and losing you is a few dollars or benefits, I want to work with you to find something that works for both of us."
Freakonomics Radio had a relevant podcast about this recently "The upside of Quitting".
http://freakonomicsradio.com/the-upside-of-quitting.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+freakonomicsradio+%28Freakonomics+Radio%29
But the longer you wait,the harder it'll be for you to quit, so if you're thinking of maybe quitting later, you should assume that you don't want to quit your job period.
The first person/thing you should be loyal too is yourself. Then prioritize after that. This is how any company works especially these days.
Seriously, take it. You aren't as important to your current employer as you think you are.
Oh, they will cajole and complain. But you will kick yourself for the years to come because you will wonder what would've happened if you had taken the job.
And, if you say, the management are really your friends, they'll understand eventually. Good management understands the value of keeping even leaving people happy - because after all, the employees might want to come back some day.
Take the new job, but promise to consult back to the old company (assuming it's ok with the next company). There was a period of 4 months, I went back to my old company as an independent consultant part time until the project was done.
There's also this. It's your current company's own fault for putting all of their eggs into one basket, you. They should know better, and they should have a contingency plan if you should leave, die or otherwise fail to come to work. That's their problem. To put all of that burden onto you is unfair and stupid on their part.
I just went though a strikingly similar situation. The old company provided a counter offer that was higher than the new company's offer when I put in my notice. My decision to make the move boiled down to weighing the less obvious options...commute has turned out to be way more valuable than I had thought. I have better growth potential and a better job in general at the new place, but I really underestimated how lousy commuting was until mine became sub-five minutes. Don't disregard your time.
0 = 1 + e^(Alt something)
A lot of people here seem to be assuming your current employer is the typical faceless massive corp that treats its employees as disposable in spite of your characterization of them as small enough that you are on friendly terms with senior management.
That sounds to me like a company where there is actually some sense of family atmosphere, and therefore worthy of a little consideration from you. I would talk to them and explain your dilemma. If you think you'll be better off with the new position, take it. But offer to assist with the current project to the best of your ability while starting the new job, at the very least taking phone calls to answer questions. Keeping that bridge intact instead of burning it at worst will cost you some personal hours in the next couple months, but could have much larger benefits in the future.
A really important factor is the people you're working with. A healthy work/social environment where you'll spend half your waking day, you know? It's not everything about money, for fuck's sake!
How any anyone even ask that question today. Programmers are thrown in the streets by the thousands in the US today. If a company can save a few dollars, you’re toast. Have no remorse as the company would have none for you. You obligation is to your family: period.
Be Loyal... It pays great dividends....
This is how life works......
To apply a theological framework to your plight, it would be summed up that temptation comes precisely Right at the most Wrong time......
Dont cave in. God has something for you.... at the end of the trail you have been blazing.... Life is far more about 'Who' you become than
it is 'what' you end up with....
Grace and peace....
I was all about sticking with your company until I saw that you'd be saving 90 minutes a day on the commute. That's a massive chunk of your life. I'd take 90 minutes a day for a pay cut. For a pay raise I'd be out the door faster than you could blink.
If your present employer needed to do some budget tightening and they found they could outsource your job tomorrow for half the amount they pay you, do you think they would hesitate? Perhaps just long enough for you to train your replacement(s). :-)
I have to say from hard experience that most employers can rationalize layoffs pretty easily when the budget demands it. And most execs do not appear to lose much sleep over it. They do not seem to worry too much if it is going to put that employee's life in a tailspin.
I wouldn't lose much sleep over leaving for a better job. Besides, you can probably work something out with both your current employer and new one to allow enough transition time to train your replacement(s).
Like parent says, document the hell out of everything so that they have the information they will need. After that, you're not only getting a 7K raise, but you're saving an hour and a half of your time every day, not to mention the cost of petrol? That's time you could spend with family, friends, and loved ones, taking up a hobby, or just relaxing, and that's petrol money you're saving on transit costs in addition to your raise.
Your current job sounds like it's been good to you, and there's no harm in acknowledging that. However, you're not just a cog in their company machine, you're a person with your own needs and goals. If someone else has made an offer that fits those better, the only moral obligation you have is to make the transition for your current employer as easy as reasonably possible.
The It business is small, so try to avoid burning bridges. Leave a good impression behind.
In your case I would take the new job, but discuss with your new employer that you will have slow start (4 days a week for 3 months) and offer your old employer to act for those 3 months as a consultant for one day per week. Then make the damn sure your spend the rest of your time in getting your replacements up to speed.
When working with reasonable people a reasonable solution can be found.
As to asking your current employer for a raise, I doubt that will help much and you won't get the improved quality of life with the short commute to work.
Well I haven't left my current employer but I recently moved a Heck of a lot closer and if you have a family or any kind of life outside of work that's important to you, do it. 1.5 hours a day is about what i saved and it adds up a ton! My life outside of work is so much better now, and that's the reason we should be working right?
Not all life is cyber. Extra Income
Assuming most of /. readers are from the US, it seems that working for something else than money as a primary reason is a typical European concept...
(Example: http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2465088&cid=37638874 is something about the actual work and has an email address in .co.uk)
Video of some good progressive thrash music
Be honest and tell them that you've been offered this great opportunity.
You would really like to stay where you are so can they
1) Offer you a pay raise
2) Let you work from home
If the answer to either (or both) is yes, then they value you and you should stick around.
If the answer to both is no, then leave.
To be honest, this type of question is best for people who already experience this dilemma. People who nonchalant say just to move don't understand the amount of time and relationship you built with the company and the people within the company. Since I don't have any attachments to your situation or to people's issues around here, it's easier to say just go for it since there doesn't seem to be any downside to moving to the new company.
I disagree. Demonizing management might have some merit in big shops, but smaller places where everyone knows everyone, folks are more likely to take on a bit of hardship themselves instead of laying it all on one person. Empathy is a powerful force. Especially if you are amicable.
I have had tremendous luck with management doing everything in their power not to let anyone go unless they absolutely had to. More than one place I worked at has instituted the cutting of company wide benefits and pay cuts for upper management instead of massive blood letting. I might have to put in longer hours, but the bosses are there plugging away as well.
Loyalty makes you seem trustworthy and reliable to your peers. These are traits that that companies like employees to keep. Once the flagship product is launched and you know they are making more money, ask for more money with the new opportunity as a bargaining chip. Leverage in commute costs. Not only might you get a pay raise, you might get a promotion, additional benefits, perhaps the ability to work more from home because of your commute. If they say they can't do it, then you are free to leave with a good conscience and everyone will say they remember you fondly. There is also something to be said about liking the folks you work with.
I always ask for what I want politely first, especially when the people that pay me are approachable and are willing to listen to what I have to say.
Companies expect (or demand) it from their employees, but are incapable of showing any, themselves. It's not that companies are evil, it's just that an inanimate object or entity does not have feelings. If you ever anthropomorphise one you're making a mistake. They can only ever act for their own good - which may coincide with benefits for employees, but that's just a lucky side-effect.
While you can get, and sometimes do get decision-making employees who act for the benefit of their subordinates that's rarely done with the company's sanction. If that benevolence leads to improved employee performance, then that's nice for all concerned but you can't rely on the next guy in the job (as nice guys rarely last long) having the same enlightened attitude.
I'd say: get out now, while the offer still stands. You have no idea whether this new product will succeed or bomb and you can't owe you existing company anything (see anthropomorphising it, above). So go for the larger, more secure and more convenient option. If you still feel a pull towards your existing company, you could always moonlight for them!
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Been there, done that. The company you're at right now would certainly not think twice about laying you off if they hit financial difficulty. Business is business and you are in a business agreement with current said company. If they have not put the effort or money into a parallel knowledge store for their flagship product, that is really irresponsible planning on their part. Where would their product be if you met your demise on that 45min commute one morning?
I would go for the new job. Ask future employer if a 3-week or 4-week notice is appropriate so you can get everyone up-to-speed at old job. Offer to be telephone/weekend support as needed for old company at pre-established rate.
Your "friends" will be supportive and understand if they really are friends.
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I ask because it is not entirely uncalled for to tell your colleague-friends that someone is trying to lure you away; it gives them the opportunity to up the ante (as our organization here did for one of our previous techs) to keep you on. I suppose it could generate hurt feelings, but probably less so than suddenly disembarking on them, should you choose the route.
That said, feeling good about yourself is just if not much more valuable than cash; having too little definitely bad for your health, but there comes a point where having more doesn't buy what it used to.
I wasn't fired. I didn't quit. It was a mutual agreement for me to leave, with severance.
Since 1995 I had worked for the company or it's parent except for a 10 month break where I worked for another company.
3 years ago the CIO was replaced, and he brought in all new IT management. People that didn't know anyone. That was the point where loyalty ended, but I didn't realize this until a couple of weeks ago when I left.
The offer was to work all of the time, Sundays included, or to leave the company. I left.
I took a job at the place the former CIO works. Might even get a pay raise.
Loyalty is about people, not the company. Working with people you know, and consider friends, is what is important.
If you are really essential to your employer, they should make you a partner in the business. What have your bonuses, raises, and profit sharing looked like for the last few years? My guess is, if 7K makes a difference to you, then your employer does not value as highly as you (rightly or wrongly) value yourself.
In which case, they'll get by without you. Once you have an offer in hand, you can negotiate with both employers on how much time you'll need for a responsible transition -- say a couple of months. That is loyalty. Your current employer will appreciate you taking time to responsibly hand over your duties, and your future employer should be impressed that you're the kind of person who ties up loose ends.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Loyalty to your employer? Are you kidding? They would fire your ass in a heartbeat as soon as the numbers exhibit a downturn. Our parents' generation could rely on unions
Whatever you say about the good old days, you can't say that employers used to care about their workers more than they do now. That (=understanding the value of job-satisfaction, employee well-being, keeping talent within the house, etc.) has went up by a lot during the last few decades!
But yeah... I don't recommend on staying if you can't get a raise. You'll just end up thinking "Damn, the other company thought that I was worth X and this company considers me to be replaceable... Why didn't I take up the offer when I could?" and your morale will drop dramatically. We humans are silly creatures. Besides, an hour of commute a day is worth quite a lot! So, tell your boss "I'd love to stay here but their offer is just so good, etc... Could you meet me at half-way?". Negotiate yourself a raise. If you know that the company just can't match your other offer even if they wanted to, negotiate something else: Longer vacations, ability to telecommute, whatever. It doesn't need to be money to show you that they value you as much as you value them!
Think in terms of real tangible things like:
Contract - your obligation to your current employer is spelled out in your contract already. How much notice do you need to give? If they needed longer notice when you leave, they would have added it in the contract already (and bound themselves to give you the same notice period, usually means extra $$, when they fire you). So why worry about them not having enough time when they don't bother to bound themselves to pay more if they fire you?
Commute - "practically next door" usually still mean a few minutes of commute. While you still save over an hour each day in your new job, but OTOH would you be required to stay late or longer because your home is practically just next door?
Pay - is it 7K more per month? (no brainer, go to the next point) Or 7K more per year? If the latter, then the difference may not be that big percentage wise, unless you are absolutely clear about the new environment, it may not be enough to cover the risk. You may do better negotiating a raise in your current job.
Environment - how much do you know about your new employer or working environment? It is always better to know more. Ask around. Are they slave drivers? Do they have a reputation for behaving honorably/honestly? How long have they been in business? Are their finance sound? etc etc.
Oliver.
Other people being unloyal or just generally crappy does not give you the right to do so.
If you think that the company deserves loyalty, and you are the only one who can know this because this is a specific case, then you have to give that consideration and no one can really help you with the question because we do not work at this company and we do not necessarily have the same appreciation of lack there of of moral behaviour as you do.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Look, at the end of the day no matter what you do whether it's IT developing or being a professional footballer, money always talks.
Yes, it's good to be loyal but you still need to put food on the table. Personally, I'd go for the new role... No one in this world is irreplaceable (no offence)
I can see why it would be a rather difficult decision though.
Here's what I've done historically. Take the new job but give your employer the option to contact you for issues that they can't figure out. Determine an hourly rate and be a consultant. Put time expectations on it (i.e. "I'll spend no more than 3 hours on an average week for the next 3 months"). Tell the new employer about your situation (in case there are conflict of interest issues). By doing this, you're giving your current employer a way to still have access to any unique knowledge that you have while still doing what's right for you. You get a reputation for being a good guy with the current employer (and likely the new since you're showing the behavior that you'll exhibit when you leave them) and you get the better job. Win-win.
Do you love the work that you do? Are you excited to make that 45 minute commute to work? Do you really enjoy working at the company you're with? Could you see yourself as a stake holder or principal whose excited to make this product work and work well?
Do you think that you'd feel these types of feelings at the company you've been offered a position at?
If you don't like what you're doing or where you're doing it, then you're doing a disservice to the company whose paying you now. It's important not only to be in the right seat on the bus, but also to be on the right bus. You should enjoy the ride, and if you're not, then you're probably going the wrong direction.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
The question is do they have loyalty to you? There are companies that do. Some companies are very big on employee retention. Small businesses are often this way, some larger companies are too. The university I work for is quite loyal. No, that doesn't mean they'll keep every person forever and ever no matter what, but they really do seek to retain people when possible, and you find plenty of people who have things like 30, 40, 50 years of service.
So that is the question to think about: How loyal is the company to its employees, and particularly to you? If they are loyal, then some loyalty in return can be a good thing. Something to be said for a company that views you as more than an expendable asset. Maybe they don't pay quite as much when things are red hot, but maybe they also keep you when things are not doing so well.
So consider that question, and then decide how loyal to be. You don't "owe" them any loyalty, however it may be in your best interest to be loyal and that is what to think about.
After you've considered that, also consider work environment, location, and that kind of thing. Don't just run around chasing a higher salary. A woman I know perpetually does that and it seems she's less happy in each job she gets. The money is better, but the environment is worse.
Now in your case you mentioned commute as a reason to switch and that is real valid. I like where I work because I can bike instead of drive. Consider other factors too though, like how the work environment seems. There's something to be said for working with friends.
I can't tell you which way to go, since I don't (and can't) know all the details. Just weigh everything, non-economic considerations as well. Keep the question of their loyalty to you in mind.
However ultimately understand that you owe your company nothing other than the work you have provided. If you decide the advantage is to move, then move.
The key thing to remember is that you are really not that important. Your job may be important and vital to the company but you personally are not and can be replaced. When you leave there may be some transition problems but nothing impossible.
You need to think of yourself as your own company. and You, Inc. has only the resources to have one customer at a time, if your services include full time hours of service.
So if you found a new customer who is willing to pay more for your services, and you feel the risk of swapping customers is worth it, then change.
If you were that valuable to the company you left then the next valuable employee they get they may put more time to make sure they are being compensated competitively.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
How big is the 'Circle' in your related industry? Will your skills specialize you to the point that your circle shrinks? How well does this circle communicate?
Reputations encompass many more things than just technical abilities... perhaps the fact there is any equivocation on your part is one of the qualities that your prospective employer desires to hire you?
Tell your current employer that you are planing on leaving, what your goals are before your departure, and what you will do to achieve the goals.
Sudden departures and unexplained, erratic career moves are for PUSSIES. PROFESSIONALS move up because they are good at what they do, and can tell other people about it from time to time.
Are you sure those 90 minutes won't be eaten up by longer hours spent working?
It seems that the success or failure of the company is hinging on your loyalty. If that's really true you should expect some kind of equity stake if you stay. If your compensation is just conventional hourly and benefits you have to take the better opportunity.
or not telling yourself ?
There must be something more. Your old company would get by without you, I'm sure they could phone you for help on occasions if they really got into a bind. This is an opportunity for the junior developers to perhaps progress a little to fill your shoes. After all there is no greater motivator that actually being responsible for something. There must be some other factor that gives you pause, something that it not as nebulous as "loyalty". Are you worried about spilling details to a competitor ?
Nullius in verba
But I wouldn't be loyal to the company. Ask yourself if the company had some kind of financial problem, would it have the same kind of consideration towards you? Or if they could hire a better developer than you for half your wages, would they do it? Your friends, if they are truly so, will still be friends. Now, money isn't everything and perhaps the environment in the new job is worse. But that aside, I'd never turn out a better job out of loyalty. No company would be as loyal to their employees (at least I haven't seen one yet).
Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
It's not always that way. I work in contracting for the US government. Moving from company A to company B is like changing from riding the bus to riding the train. It just doesn't matter who you work for, because your customer is the same.
So, I guess it depends. Is company B promising you a career path, future training, a career? Or is just a cold call offer for a job and no other details? Ask more questions.
I have known lots of loyal employers -- especially when you are talking about a small shop, rather than a big firm. Not everyone is a jackass.
Moreover, loyalty cuts both ways - if (as a group) we don't give it, we cannot ask for it.
That said, loyalty is a finite quantity. This is a firm with several employees and "management" so an extra 10k for one person should be within their grasp (or perhaps some sort of equity stake / profit sharing if cash flow is short before the launch) -- and if it really would break them, now is probably a good time to bail.
Consequently, you should a) figure out what it would take to make you happy about staying and then b) be open with your current employer. Explain that you don't want to leave -- especially now -- but that you owe it to yourself (and your family, if that is an issue) to take this offer seriously, and that you are giving them a chance to respond. If they say no, or accuse you of holding them to ransom, or are otherwise obnoxious then you can leave in good conscience.
I notice from the problem you pose that you haven't been fucked yet. That's ok; a lot of people manage to go through most of their careers without ever getting fucked; in our grandparents' era, a lot of people worked for only one or two companies, never got fucked at all, and retired without ever knowing what it's like. Today, though, it's very easy to find someone who will fuck you. In fact, it's all but impossible to avoid; sooner or later you're going to get fucked whether you want to or not. If it's not your own company's rapacious or incompetent management, your company will be bought out and you and your colleagues fucked repeatedly by the acquiring company.
In case I'm not being clear, my point is that no one gives a flying fuck about you. They don't care about your personal happiness, your career advancement, or whether your compensation is commensurate with your contribution. You may think that they're your friends; maybe they are, maybe not. Save it for the football game or the pub after work; while they're in the office they are in it for themselves, not you. At the office, they are the corporation, which is a pathological entity that rewards cruel and selfish behaviour and accumulates managers who behave that way regardless of whether the shareholders, directors, or senior managers themselves hold those values. They will gladly fuck you without a second thought if circumstances encourage doing so, and most of them would be stunned to learn that you took offense at your fucking; to them it's just part of running the business. Trust me: you're not even human to them when you're at the office; you're a cog in their machine.
Don't for one nanosecond consider being "loyal" to a corporation, nor to individuals within that corporation acting in its context. A lot of people here have advised you to "negotiate". Don't listen to them. If someone is offering you more money and an hour and a half of your life back every day, TAKE IT. If you attempt to negotiate, you may be given a counteroffer, but you will be let go as soon as they can find a cheaper alternative to paying you more money (not to mention that there is nothing they can do to eliminate your commute). When that happens, your other offer will be a distant memory and you will be stuck looking for whatever you can find.
You need to stop feeling anything for the people you work with. They see you as a cog, and you should see them the same way. It really helps to stop thinking of them as human at all. Oh, and welcome to the workforce, son! Savour the opportunity you have right now to be on the giving end; it won't always be that way.
This is the most mercenary discussion I've seen on Slashdot, ever.
If your employer isn't loyal to you (within reason) then you don't want to be there. Most of the organizations I have worked for - including some very big ones - actually do try to avoid laying people off in a downturn, at least skilled white-collar workers. In a knowledge industry if you burn your workers every knows and it gets tougher to hire in the future.
You already know whats right for you - the other job. That means you need to leave - but doesn't mean leaving the current company (& coworkers!) in the lurch. Ask the new employer if they will give you a couple of months before you start; if so, get an offer letter with those terms. Seriously - I just hired a programmer and a project manager on these terms (2 months and 3 months respectively). They needed the time to close out projects, train new hires etc. I was impressed that they were loyal to their old employer - and presume they will leave me one day with the same grace and style. Their old employers (who couldn't match my offer) were pleased that they were willing to stay that long, and will in the future give them glowing recommendations - and might hire them back. Co-workers don't feel shafted etc. Did I want them sooner? Of course - but they were the right people and I'm willing to wait.
Now, your current employer might tell you to stuff it, and to clear out your desk. Or that they will hire someone and they only want 2 weeks and then your out. Fine - you have been loyal and done your part, and the new employer presumably will take you sooner.
Loyalty means doing your best in a hard situation, not picking between 2 weeks notice and staying forever.
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
If in your current position you consider higher management friends, you shouldn't be shy about being honest with them. Tell them your situation. If you have a real relationship with them, they will appreciate the honesty and the opportunity to try to do right by you and keep you for the long haul, rather than have you stick around for a short time out of 'loyalty' and feel bitter.
Maybe they can offer to let you telecommute once or twice a week to save on your commute. Maybe they can give you a raise. Maybe they can't do anything, and will just wish you well. You'll never know if you don't give them the chance.
Would a higher salary from your current company make you stay? Is there a break even between lower salary and feeling good? Is there a chance to get more money from the old company without ruining it?
What is it making you feel bad? Are the two developers you teach not good enough or are you not confident enough in their skills? If these companies are not competitors, you might make an arrangement, so you could help out, just in case.
Is the job really the same? Working in a small company you know most people is different to working in a big one you are just one of many.
Eventually you have to decide which serves you better.
cb
The longer answer is:
1. You state that even higher management are your friends. Just how good? Visit each other on weekends? Hang out in bars? Or just "treat you in a friendly manner in the office"?
1.a. If it's the last, they are not true friends and you shouldn't give this "friendship" any weight whatsoever.
1.b. If they really are good friends, tell them about the offer. A 7k raise and 40 minutes shorter commute are not trivial to pass up. If they care about you, they might actually advise you to take it, even if it hurts them temporarily.
2. A 7k rise is a lot. If another company is willing to pay you such a hefty raise, you've been working for many years now at wages below what you could/should have been making. Why is the difference so large?
2.a. If it's because you've passed up opportunities to get a raise, either by leaving or declining a promotion at your current company, you are of course to blame.
2.b. If however as I suspect you simply haven't received (proper) pay raises at your current company for several years, thus putting you behind the curve, they have in effect been screwing you over. And make no mistakes, companies know *exactly* how much the going rate is for each programmer grade and seniority. So if they have been knowingly screwing you out of proper wages for several years, they are certainly no friends of yours.
I learn from all my mistakes, I intend to be a genius at the end of my life.
On my first job out of university, I was loyal, stuck to a single company for about 4 years, at which point their product was purchased by another company and the dev team dropped like a hot potato.
Few years down, I couldn't come to work on a weekend (after working 3 straight previous weekends without overtime pay), I was let go the following Thursday after I pissed off my boss after being threatened "I may not be fit for the organization", I'm glad I did, cause I wasn't.
I started contracting and haven't looked back, get more pay, get paid for overtime and believe it or not, respected more and viewed as someone who has authority in my field, though I am the same person.
Cutting the commute alone is probably worth more than the 7k bump in salary to many people. Why? It makes them happier.
Also consider this. Your employee/employer relationship is a business transaction. You deciding to leave or stay should be purely a business decision relative to your career and life. If it will improve your career and life, go for it.
Unfortunately in these times, most companies don't share your feelings of loyalty. They will cut people any time and for any reason. You should do what is best for you and your family and let them worry about how they run their business.
Let me reframe the question. Take loyalty out of the question, for a moment, ask yourself if the extra money is worth no longer working with people you really like. I've worked for people who shouldn't be managing anyone, much less IT people. I've worked in situations where developers were poorly regarded and treated badly. Not having to put up with crap like that is worth an offset in pay. How much of an offset is, of course, up to you. HTH. Heck- this is Slashdot. Hope this gets noticed. :)
A manager of mine once said to me: "Companies are like an octopus feeding. They'll squeeze you for as much as they can, and when they're done with you they'll drop you." Your first and foremost loyalty is your family and your loved ones. Give two weeks notice, train your replacements, and go on to a new adventure. Godspeed.
Is the job offer contingent on you starting right away? They may be willing to wait until your current project is in stable hands. If not you should let your current employer know that you have been approached by another company with an attractive offer, say you don't want to hurt your current company but the new job would be a big improvement in your life. They may offer better terms or seek to keep you on as a consultant until the new people get trained. If not they clearly aren't as invested in you as you are in them and you can leave guilt free.
Do your best to be respectful since they are not only your friends but also you future references.
"well, we don't have the budget to do anything now, but I'll <ahem> make sure you are rewarded when you review comes round in X months time."
You're now in the worst possible situation. You've played your hand and got a commitment that almost certainly won't match the offer you have; either financially or in terms of commute, or wider opportunities in the new place. But it gets worse. You've also told your employer that you're willing to dump them - so you're now top of the list of people to sack - especially as the guy is at present training 2 more people (his replacements).
Also, the "I've got a better offer" is only a ploy you can use once. So if you do stay, you are unlikely to ever get the chance to bluff for another payrise - and you can bet that in years to come any above-average rise will get brought back into line with below-par awards in coming years.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Business is Business is what they would say if they laid you off and you complained about loyalty. Take the job and use the same argument with them if they get all high and mighty with you. You could always do remote consulting for them if you were really super important. At the end of the day you work to support your life. If you can make a massive improvement DO IT!
Would the company lay you off to save $1? Yes. If you you said no, you are kidding yourself. Do what is best for you and your family.
Unfortunately, they are still a long way from grasping the technologies used – not to mention the 'interesting' job the outsourced developers managed to make of the code.
Let me get this straight: you're working for someone who is about to release a flagship project, but the code is a mess and you've got 2 members of staff and the only person who really knows about it is you.
Now I'll explain what your real situation is: you're filling in for your management being not very good. Those guys aren't putting in a real investment, and through your efforts you're keeping them going.
So, the question to you is this: what are you getting for being a crucial part of their company? You see, I've seen this dozens of times... people who work 8am to 7pm every day because the work needs doing without telling the management to go screw themselves when the management refuse to get more staff in. People who earn little more than the people doing 9 to 5.
Regardless of another job, I would go to these guys and suggest they make you a director, or put you on share options for your work.
Let's assume you are going to take the new job. I'd try to make the move as gracefully as possible by:
1. Explain your situation to the new company. Explain you don't want to leave your old company in a bind but want to take their offer. find out how flexible they are in start dates. Also find out what's the earliest you can start if step 2 falls apart. If they are a decent company , they'll appreciate that you are not the type of person to bail out and leave someone in a bind, since at some point you may leave them as well.
2. Explain to your current company the situation - you will be leaving and want to engineer a smooth transition as well as be around for the initial launch hiccups. Work out a date within the time the new company gave you. If they sack you, leave and start at the new one.
3. If they counter, then you have to decide what is best for you.
Many posters talk about the lack of company loyalty to employees. Yes, it is true. I've been there and it sucks. But I caution you - separate the company from the people who work there. Not only are they friends, they are potential employers / employees / references / job leads in the future. They will appreciate your trying to do the right thing even if "the company" doesn't. Don't waste the trust and relationships you've built up over the years. It's bad personally and professionally; not to mention bad karma - a /. -1 is a joke, but a -1 in real life isn't. As a valued mentor pointed out to me: most businesses live in a small pond, just because someone else pee'd in it doesn't mean you need to remembered for doing it as well.
I've stayed friends with people who have had to make business decisions that negatively impacted me. I don't take this etchings personally, and prefer to take the high road. They appreciate it, and I feel good about who and what I am.
the only time you should burn your bridges behind you is if you are leading a powerful army on a mission of conquest and want to clearly show the choices are victory or death.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
First, tell them about the concurrency proposal and see what they say, they could adjust your salary to keep you inside the walls. If they don't, don't wait, they think you are not important in the company and your loyalty will never pay.
If you have a legitimate offer that is better than where you are now, you have two options: 1. Take the offer. 2. Use the offer to get your current employer to make a better (or at least matching) offer.
In C++, your friends can see your privates.
If you were a partner/cofounder, it would be one thing. But since you're 'merely' an employee, your ultimate loyalty is to yourself. Put in your two weeks' notice and expedite the training of the junior developers. It sounds like you have already been a conscientious and diligent worker -- you don't owe your employer anything else, except the courtesy of a formal notice of resignation. Many may call it harsh, but do you really think they'd give a second thought to making you redundant if business went south?
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
Don't even mention the other job offer. At least not immediately. Figure out a number that would satisfy you for sticking around with your current employer. If 1/8 to 2/8 of your day is spent commuting then take take your new pay and multiply it by that number. If you are offered 60k for instance by the new employer then take 60k * 2/8 and you have 15K. Ask for a 22k raise. If they turn it down then just explain the situation. If they ask why you are asking for such a large raise you can explain too. But the point is if you can get away with a raise (your worth it to the other company then you are probably worth it to your current employer too if not more) without telling them you have a competing offer then you are in a win-win situation.
I'd respect such a person. You are giving your employer a chance to stay afloat potentially.
Leave
Being loyal does indeed pay, but only when both sides act in good faith. Allowing yourself to be taken advantage of is another matter entirely.
In other words, it sounds like you need more information. If your current employer acting in good faith, or merely taking advantage of you? Find this out -there are many posts in this thread already detailing how you might go about this- and then make your choice.
I've been in situations where I've been on the other side of the table to this, and lost developers 'cos they got a better offer. I've been as mad as hell about it, not because they've walked, but because I took my eye off the ball for long enough for the problem to develop...the irritation was with myself, not the guy walking. As it happens, the one guy I lost that I _really_ didn't want to was back 12 months later - when he and I finally worked out the issues that he'd been suffering in the first place.
The first thing I would do is wander into your boss' office, shut the door and have an off-the-record conversation with him/her. Explain the issues and tell them why you're considering moving and what needs to change. Be careful to phrase this as a "We have a problem, how can we work to solve it?" conversation rather than a "I'm leaving unless you fix these problems" conversation otherwise it sounds like blackmail. The fact is, you do feel some loyalty and obligation to your company and/or co-workers....so give that some rope and see what happens.
If the company you're working for has any sense and if you're any cop (and your boss is worth his salt), then they'll find a way to work with you to make you comfortable to stay. If not, or if you don't feel you even have the kind of relationship where you can have that closed door chat, then walk, you're losing nothing.
Note that opinions and attitudes to work vary widely across the world; you'll hear the mercenary "Do what's best for your money" at one extreme and the "Stay, it can't be that bad" at the other. The fact is that you have to do what's right for you, but you should always be able to look your ex-colleagues and bosses in the eye when you meet them in the pub later...
Quite happy to chat further on this if its useful, but /. open forum isn't the right place.
I recently switched dev positions here in the States, and I had a similar conflict. I had a project that was hitting its due date. The QA people and I got along really well, and I had sort of a "Mr. Fix-it" reputation. Unlike you, however, I was getting pretty fed up with my job at that time, even though the pay and bennies were quite good.
My basic criterion for jumping could be summed up thusly: "Is my current position still as useful to me as it was when I started?"
"Useful" could be defined as a combination of acceptability of compensation, availability of networking contacts, chances for advancement, impact on work/life balance, and/or job satisfaction. That was my definition, yours may differ.
When I realized *all* of these scores could be improved at the new gig, I jumped. Haven't regretted it.
Just please, if you do jump, be professional about it: Leave on good terms with as many people as possible and fulfill/exceed all of your outstanding obligations. (You'd be surprised how many people DON'T do these things.)
They would kick you to the curb in a heart beat. Loyalty is dead. You are just a commodity. Run!!!
Sounds like you're in a good position to negotiate some new benefits. If your current employer won't pay you any more, how about a few more weeks of holiday? How about a 60% work-from-home policy? Think creatively, if you want to stay. A few tips:
1. Be prepared to walk.
2. Keep things civil.
3. Don't mention any specifics - say "I have an offer from another company that will pay me significantly more than I make here. What can you offer me to stay?" and work from there. If your current boss asks how much the pay raise would be if you left, say "enough to make me seriously consider their offer".
4. Ask for more than you really want.
5. Let the other guy talk himself up to your level, never talk yourself down to his.
Don't be a sap - the company would dump you in a heartbeat if the accountants told them it was advantageous to the bottom line. But don't forget - so would the new company. So - the *real* question you should be asking yourself is: How stable is the new company? Why is there an opening, and why are they willing to pay you? Does the new company have a history of ramping up and down with their shifting sales revenue? When was their last downsizing? Just because they are "bigger" does not mean they are more stable. If you leave now, and 6 months from now the new company decides they don't need you - what will you do then? If you can live with the worst case scenario, then go for it - money in the hand is better than any company's promise.
And yes, I know how this works from experience - I was laid-off 8 months after doing exactly the same thing you are contemplating, and now I'm screwed with no opportunity to go back to my old job and (so far) no new offers. If I had considered more carefully the terrible history of the new company for ramping up and down, I think I might have stayed where I was - but I didn't!
If you are indispensible, and the flagship product is about to be released, how about negotiating a chunk of the action instead of more pay? In a public company this could materialize as stock options, not sure about a small private company.
This came from a consultant that was hired to process us out when I was laid off from Texas Instruments. She said "There is no such thing as Company Loyalty. A company has no loyalty to you, so why should you have loyalty to your company?" Look out for #1, take the higher paying job which is closer and enjoy your newly found money and time. Wish your friends the best, tell them you will help them out as needed on a contract basis (nights and weekends), and see if they make a counter offer to the new job.
Your loyalty should be to people, and not companies.
If your company needs to cut expenses, and your boss is told to cut X number of people, then he may like the folks under him a lot, but he still has to fire them.
So make sure your team is prepped, and give a decent amount of notice (more than the tradition 2 weeks), and move on without feeling guilt.
Happiness is what I'd measure out. Also - something not mentioned is at what stage of your career you're in.
As for happiness - is your commute time stripping you of valuable time with your family? I have a similar commute and I'm used to it - but I also have some flexibility with my hours and can work from home at times. Those little perks there make up for the commute for me.
As for salary - is that 7k going to make a huge difference to you? After taxes&benefits (based on USA rates) that'll be roughly 400/mo or translates to a little over 3.36/hr before taxes. Huge difference if you're making 100k/yr vs 30k/yr.
Another thing - does this new job open up any new doors for you? In my case - I've plateaued in regards to what I can learn and do here so that's my main motivation for wanting to look elsewhere.
For me I'd measure out my priorities. I'm in my early-mid stages of my career so I still have a fair amount of momentum to be used up. Commute isn't a huge priority. Salary I can stand to remain the same. I'm just not learning/doing much else, thus not allowing much else I can add to my resume, and that's the kicker for me.
There are two questions you need to ask yourself:
In the end it all boils down to quality of life, a.k.a.: happiness. Does your current job make you happy? Do you look forward to going into work every day? That your job makes you happy may sound naïve to some, so let's sum it up as this: does going to work amount to a positive experience for you that you are (at least!) content to partake in?
To me, for example, the happiness is the kicker - if you can't guarantee yourself that you'll be happy enough in the new job that you won't miss your old one, then don't leave. Sure you'll be getting more money, saving on gas and time, and not dealing with the "long" commute... but if you're going to be miserable doing it, all you'll really be doing is giving up quality of life - and that tends to be fairly hard to come by once given up.
Note that I didn't mention how you would measure "happy with your current job" - that's something deeply personal that only you can ascertain. The key thing is: the level of happiness you expect in the new job must be sufficient that you won't miss your old one. Note that I don't say that you must be as happy as, or happier than... you just have to be happy enough that you won't want to go back.
That said, I can't help but feel that to leave now would be betraying my friends and colleagues.
Assuming they're not self absorbed, and they're truly friends I'm pretty sure they'd understand. If the company is in such a bad spot when one person leaves, they're not set up well for disasters anyway. What if you got hit by a bus? I agree with a post above that offering to do training / consulting would be a good way to transition out, even if it means a lot of work in the immediate future.
Everyone else here brings up the pay, but I think cutting commute time would be a much bigger deal to me and an opportunity that will likely never present itself again.
Loyalty is for people. Not companies, not restaurants not sports teams.
That said, I generally give a month's notice to places that have been good to work at. I will also come back for a day or two if it takes them longer than that to hire someone.
Since you are young you are almost certainly overestimating your importance. It's okay, I still do after 20 years in the industry. I just left a position at the same time as a co-worker and would have predicted disaster within days. Somehow they're trundling along. It helped than I gave the longer notice and recommended particular people to replace me.
If the new employer is not willing to let you help your current employer then take that as a warning sign.
Good luck.
Speaking as someone who was fired from every job I ever held (self employed now- 14 years), you need to think long term. You have developed relationships with your current employer and the people who work there and you never know where those people will turn up in the future. I have customers that I used to work for that I never thought I would see again in a million years because of how I left. But you do have to put yourself first. Removing 90 minutes of commute time a day and more money is a great step up. Just treat the current employer with respect, maybe really try to help with the transition.
In 26 years, I've worked for 6 organizations and have held a variety of positions from server admin to senior developer. So loyalty means a lot to me.
Certain factors have to weigh in to the desire to make a change, because the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.
Adequate challenge - I have to feel that I am challenged. I could never be a button pusher, I have to feel that I'm utilizing my skills and constantly learning and developing new skills. Do I get to use new, cool technologies or are we in the dark ages? I have told nearly every manager, director, and
o Job satisfaction - Do I like my job or dread waking up in the morning because I know I have to go back to that place?
o How I was treated by the company - Do they treat me well? Are there perks like working at home a day or two a week? Does the company constantly screw with their employees? Do they work me like a dog or respect me enough to allow me to retain (some) sanity? Do they respect their employees?
o Stability of the company / profitability - How stable is the organization? Are they going to be here tomorrow or are they slashing everything to try to stay in business? Is senior management accessible and open to the state of the company? Is management properly involved?
o Salary - I like money. I would like to have a million dollars, take it all in singles, put it in a pool, and take a swim. If I have to sell my soul and work like a dog for an idiot boss in a crappy company, it's not worth it.
o Other factors - Commute, perks like flexible schedule, work from home, vacation, and decent hardware (like a good laptop).
Consider what your dream job is. Is your dream job the place you are at or the place that is recruiting you? Is the new job a stepping stone to greater things or just a lateral change? Can you make your existing place of work your dream job?
At the end of the day, the person you work for is you. Loyalty is important, but you don't need to stay so loyal as to stunt your career. Consider your options carefully. Talk to management, see what kind of plans they have for you. If you aren't satisfied, then the decision is easier to make.
Good luck to you in your decision.
I've faced the same issue, and I chose to leave. It's a business decision. When it comes down to it, your employer would let you go if it made business sense. Businesses, successful ones at least, are only truly loyal to themselves and work toward their own interests. Every employee should do the same, in my opinion.
I've heard plenty of stories of people taking up better jobs only to be unemployed a few months later because of lousy bosses, company going under, etc. Everyone says screw it and take the offer but make sure it'll be around for you and the new people are people you can deal with.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Being loyal is admirable, but it can easily go too far. I felt the same way as you do now, all the way up until I was laid off. While looking for a new job, I've found that I was being paid at the low end of the scale, and even though I was the only "expert" in the areas I was working on, I was let go simply because I was not working out of the main offices (or out of India).
You need to seriously consider how much loyalty your company has to you. You don't work for your colleagues or even your direct manager, you work for the company. If the loyalty isn't nearly equivalent in both directions, then you need to bring it into balance on your end, which most likely means scaling back your own sense of loyalty.
If you worked for me, I would certainly appreciate the opportunity to keep you, and I wouldn't feel bitter in the least if you came to me and said 'x company is offering more money to do the same thing and it's a better fit with my life.' Yes, if I'm a douchebag, I can agree to match or beat their offer and then quietly seek to replace you, but a company's reputation among its employees hits the toilet pretty fast the moment everybody stops trusting the boss. It's my job to make sure that nobody ever stops and asks 'would Aquitaine try to replace me just because I made him match an offer another company made?'
When I hire somebody, I definitely want the opportunity to earn their loyalty -- but I know that they, like everybody, have an obligation to themselves and to their families to do right by all of them, and that's tough when they're in competition with one another. So I don't think you 'owe' your current employer any more than the customary two weeks' notice unless you feel that they've really gone the extra mile on your behalf in the past, which some small businesses will do. Even then, I'd rather have a valuable employee realize it's time to move on than regret not having done so and turn into a rotten, depressed employee.
£16K salary after 3 years. Sole developer of an enterprise level PHP tool. Sole PHP coder full stop.
Not bad enough? I'm currently working at home because my pay is going to be 2 weeks late and I now can't afford the petrol.
And now for the real kicker to top it off? I've overheard them talking to each other about version 2.0 of the product, they've not mentioned this to me and the guy who basically is in charge of new development hasn't spoken to me in months. I've overheard them talking to a friend who handles outsourcing and 'Belarus' was mentioned a few times.
Still, I've now got strong Drupal development skills and looking at job sites, Drupal is gold dust at the moment so when the inevitable does happen or if I'm able to build up a financial cushion. I shouldn't do too bad.
tldr: if you're a nice guy, you get fucked. Don't leave in a nasty way (try to ensure they've a replacement, ask new bosses if they will be ok with you offering occasional tech support if they need it) but being loyal and nice will get you screwed 95% of the time as a coder because small businesses don't realise how good they have it with you.
Do the right thing. Do what is right for you and your family at the particular point in time of your life. There will always be projects, and if your current company treats you well, that's great. As you know, especially in the UK, there are lots of layoffs happening. You may be totally loyal to the company, yet the company may lay you off. It's just business. And it will be out of your control. Training the 'juniors' is a way to help hand down your skills to the cheaper staff. Outsourcing programming jobs is getting easier, and your job may end up being outsourced in India or China. On the other hand, more money, closer commute, similar type of job - these are very attractive attributes of the new job. You will save 45 minutes in commuting time. As you put it - a massive difference in your life. DO IT!
You have to decide where you are professional level or grunt level - professionals don't leave projects mid way through.
Explain the situation it to your possible next employer - I'd be concerned if the next employer can't appreciate that, see it as a plus and wait for you to finish up.
IMO there are advantages to being a long-timer at one job. If the company is growing and you have stock options, you will do well, over time. Also if the company is placing you into more senior roles over time you will gain from that too (and not just monetarily, but in terms of valuable experience and job satisfaction). If you are not getting these upsides from staying then that is a reason to be bail.
I recently left a job, at a very inopportune time for the company, that had a lot of people that I really cared about.
The company had switched direction about a year or so ago away from custom software development, and I wasn't doing what I loved any longer. Most of the team were upset that we were being asked to do things that we did not like to do and that we were not trained to do.
I let my loyalty keep me there for some time after I was no longer enjoying the work I was doing. It began to wear on me, and I realized that it was just hurting me. I left. My teammates understood and so far we are still friends. I know it hurt for me to leave, but if the team knows that the new situation is going to be better for you and they are really your friends, they will understand.
Just make sure that the place you are going is going to make you happy. That you will be doing work you enjoy, and that the people there will be the kind of people you want to be around. Without those, more money doesn't mean squat.
You check out the new company and check whether they can be trusted. You check how much notice you have to give. You get a contract with the new company accordingly. You give notice, giving your reasons, without burning bridges if at all possible. See how they react. Depending on their reaction you might now know that you made the right decision.
Your old company can use your salary to hire an experienced developer again, so they shouldn't be doing too badly, and it's not your fault anyway. They could have given you some extra money, right?
Not burning bridges is important because (a) it is the professional thing to do and you don't want to damage your reputation, (b) you never know when you meet people again, and (c) you might want to go back. (Cases that I know of, the shortest time between starting a job and being fired was 10 minutes, the shortest time between starting a new job and calling the old company was also 10 minutes). About (b): A recommended business strategy is to keep some notes about any employees that leave. Some you might want to call if you hire again in case they want to come back, others you might want to hire back by mistake.
Many years ago I was a young engineer that impressed my boss at a small company (about 50 people) to believe in me and my ideas. I designed custom dependencies into our flagship product that worked well and saved us a ton of money. Because of this it allowed us to stretch into areas that we normally would not have been able to compete, specifically against the 800 lbs. gorillas of our industry. The problem was they were paying me about half of what an engineer should have been making (I was a fresh graduate), and it truly was all they could afford because of the startup nature of the company. After a couple of years I was lured away by the gold, and I told myself the very thing that others have been telling you - "forget the company, they are making millions off of your talent, you need to look out for yourself, etc".
However, when I left they could not afford to hire another engineer at my low pay grade (everyone was underpaid - the CEO would have been making about what an experienced engineer cost). They went under a couple of years later. Was it only because of me? Not likely, they were trying to do the impossible. I keep telling myself that anyway.
So, I look back at that action with embarrassment and shame. I sold them out. Be flattered for the offer, but whatever you do, be sure you can look yourself in the mirror afterwards.
As someone who recently went from a ~50+ minute commute to a six minute commute (door to door) it’s worth it, that alone makes it worth it. That's the most valuable factor in the entire equation. I got ~+10 hours a week of my life back that I used to spend in a car. Ten. The amount of *life* I've regained, and its corresponding value, is incalculable. It's worth much more than an extra 7K/year - I'd consider the extra money as a nice bonus, the real value in this job offer is in the amount of your life you're going to get back.
/.’rs are right, we’re talking about companies, where there is no such thing as loyalty or friends *especially* between upper management and worker bees. It’s about money and greed. Period. Full stop. If they have two trained jr. developers who combined make less than you (in all forms of compensation: vacation time, medical/pension and other employer contributions, etc) then they will, in all likelihood, fire you as soon as they think those two can hold that ship afloat with the outsourced developers. I’d expect that to happen shortly after the product is launched. Unless you have shares in the company or will make beans should the product you’ve been working on takes off, then you have no stake in their game. If they really need you, they'll pay to keep you - but if they do, I think it will increase the likelihood that you're training your replacements - but are you absolutely sure you aren't already doing that?
The vast number of other
UconnGuy is 100% right about how to tell if they truly are your friends or not when you tell them about the offer. If they really are “friends”, they’ll want you to get an extra $7k/year and +~10 hours a week of your life back, as friends want what's best for you not what's best for the company. XxtraLarGe also has a very good suggestion, you can offer to stay on as a consultant. It could be for a transitional period or as long as you/they want, and with the extra ~+10 hours a week, you’re going to have *plenty* of time to do that consulting work!
Take the new job as long as you have some level of confidence that it’s a stable move and your new employer isn’t at risk for downsizing anytime soon as you’ll be the first to go if they do. Bottom line is this: time is something they’re always making more of but something you’ll never have enough of & the amount of *life* you’ll get back that you used to spend commuting will be worth infinitely more than the $7k pay rise is.
Loyalty to a company is valuable. Not as much for the relation between you and the company itself, but more for the relationship between you, your co-workers, and your managers - people remember and appreciate when you were loyal and helpful even when you ddi not have (or want) to be. It doesn't matter as much in the company you are in now, but it might help you get a job later as co-workers move on to other places.
That said. I think you should absolutely change jobs. Loyalty is good to a point but anyone reasonable would understand why this change was so much better for you, they would not lose any respect for you making this change. Also personal growth is important and changing jobs can help with that as long as you do not do so too often.... and imagine what 80 minutes every day of increased personal time is worth, that is invaluable.
Even if the new job didn't work out you could probably go back. Just change.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There are no words to describe the increase in your quality of life when you remove the commute. None. You'll be in awe of what life is actually like.
Definitely don't burn bridges, and handle it as responsibly as possible, but opportunities are opportunities, and you need to take the good ones when they come up.
Your job is not your life, your life is not your job.
My experience is that if the market you are working in is expanding rapidly, then changing companies is the way to go. I quadrupled my salary in three years changing companies four times, OK, this was computer field trouble-shooting in the oilfield in the Far East, in the boom times of the 1970s (HP & DEC minis). These were US companies & I actually returned to one after leaving them, there were no hard feelings, they knew they were lucky to get me back.
Much later I had to re-enter the same business during a fairly static period, things weren't going down, they were just not expanding. I felt I was lucky to get the job I was offered & stuck with it for four years until I had a consultancy offer, which I took, the consultancy business in that field was expanding & starting to use personal computers... was a good move then.
My point is you have to look at what is happening in the market/business you have your core skill set in. If the new company needs you to bird-dog a project & that project sells but not that well, as last in you might be first out. Let alone if that project bombs.
Don't generalise & do your research.
Nico M, London, GB.
I personally would not use the new job as a "bargaining chip", in that I'd bring it to the old boss and try to get them to match or beat the deal. IMO that has the potential to create bad blood. Instead, without ever mentioning any other opportunity I would just ask to open up negotiations for a raise..
If you do it right, it shouldn't create any bad blood. Don't lay it down as an ultimatum, just say that you're happy in your job, you'd like to stay, but you've been given a very compelling offer by another firm.
If your relationship with your company is so poor that you can't have this kind of discussion, or If your manager takes it badly anyway, then you should count yourself lucky and get out while the gettin's good.
If you want the job, take it. If you want to give your current employer the opportunity to make you a better offer, go for it :).
Business is Business.
You should tell your current company that you have been headhunted by another company offering more money and less travel. Match it including travel or you're gone , well once you rolled out your 'flagship'. That would be the decent thing to do imo.
Wow, this hits close to home.
I recently left my old position in a very large company, working with some people I really liked, to jump to another division within the same company. My pay, commute, and benefits are identical. But I'm working on different stuff, in support of different products, with a different group of people. And because I'm still in the same company, I hear from my old coworkers daily, and know that they're experiencing a not insignificant amount of pain over my leaving.
I feel slightly crappy about this. But in the end I wound up moving for two big reasons:
1. I was enjoying the work less and less, and felt the need to try something different. (An increasing amount of my work related to tools & methodology and configuration management, and I just didn't find it interesting.)
2. I was frustrated with a career which seemed to be stagnating for the last five years.
I didn't even get a raise out of my jump - you'd be getting a substantial raise, plus a drastically shortened commute. Make your exit as professional and painless as you can, but for god's sake, go.
You owe your company an honest day's work for a day's pay and that is all. You do not owe them your loyalty. Maybe that made sense decades ago but not anymore.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
1) You should always lookout for yourself. As selfish as that sounds, companies will not be looking out for you. You should do what is in the best long term interest of you and your family.
2) Don't chase the money. Try to do something that you like/love. Taking a job for more money always seems like an easy choice, but working on interesting things with good people cannot be understated.
Just my 2 cents.
As the reasonable and competent man sitting on the other side of the table I understand the difference between "loyalty" in perhaps the Platonic sense and "business loyalty." In business, “loyalty” is almost always a two-way street, and virtues don’t have intrinsic value—often times reduced to a monetary value unfortunately. So, if I were in your shoes my reasoning/decision process would probably try to give my current employer a "handicap" so to speak—meaning I might take the beneficial proximity of the new company’s location to my home out of the equation as a token of my "loyalty" to my current employer—be sure to convert this benefit to monetary terms (fuel, wear and tear on vehicle, missed hourly earning potential during commute time, etc.) for your own knowledge and for your employer’s, so that he/she can see in more tangible terms exactly what you might sacrifice on their behalf. Apart from that however, you can bet I would expect a pay raise pretty damn close to the new company’s offer. Just be honest with yourself and employer in the decision process so that everyone knows exactly WHY you’re making the decision you’re making, and be sure to clearly communicate how your own loyalty to the company is playing a role in your decision making process—this will likely prevent regrets on your part regardless of how it all turns out, and hard feelings on theirs. All assuming a reasonable and competent other-side-of-the-table of course!
As a sysadmin. I've been in this situation a couple times over the past 6-7 years. Usually working for smaller companies (less then 500 people), after 2-3 years, it's not terribly difficult for me to find a job somewhere else that pays high-4 or low-5 figures more.
I've always leaned on the side of moving to make more. I'm not the type of person to blindly chase $$, but when it gets into the high four figure (or low 5 figure) point, it's tough not to say no. That;s not to say I jump on any old position that comes by, I still make my moves carefully... The way I see it, it's just too much money to give up. Unless I was working for immediate family (which I never have, not even distant family), the feeling of guilt of leaving the place usually subsides very quickly. If they can't keep up with market rate for my position, tough beans for them.
14 years ago, I was working with a group that was among the best and brightest I ever worked with.. My managers and I *liked* each other (no PHB bosses, there - the PHB was in another team....)
According to a close friend, who's also a degreed, practicing clinical psychologist, I was *that* close to clinical burnout.
How many hours is your usual day, or week? Is it over 50 hrs/wk? 60? How tired are you?
I hated leaving them, but exhaustion won out (and my ...late... wife being only semi-joking about suing them for alienation of affection). Will the new job be as good as the old... or more exhausting, and more and more hours? Remember, whatever management thinks, you're working to live, not living to work for them.
mark
Follow these instructions right now, don't read further then the step you've taken:
1) Find a coin
2) Decide what heads and tails will be
3) Flip the coin.
4) look at the result as the final result.
5) Are you happy with that result? If answer is yes, that's your decision. If answer is no, then pick the other option.
I am a loyal employee as well, generally. But in my years of working, I've been royally screwed three times in return for my loyalty (including just recently). But more often then not, I get handed opportunities because the people I work with want to continue working with me in some fashion. Being fair, loyal, and producing good work does pay off.
But, don't be a sucker either. Any reasonable person will understand if you have to make a hard choice because its the right choice for you and your family. I've done that, and it always plays out well. Be fair, make some compromises if needed, but remember whats really important in life.
Now if I can just remember how to change the signature below..
-- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
My mother went through a similar situation. Sort of.
It went like this: She got a job offer at a company (B) that had better offices, a more interesting aspect of the same job, giving her more importance at the company, more respect, and significantly more money.
She told her boss where she worked (company A) that she got this job offer and was considering it.
Boss A counter-offered with more money. She considered.
Company B counter-offered with more money. She considered.
A counter-offered, B counter-offered...each time she'd tell the other company what the new offer was, and finally decided after 4 counter-offers to go with Company B.
So my advice would be to tell your colleagues and friends that you've received this offer. Tell them it's extremely tempting (do it over a beer or something) because it's more money and gives you way more time during your day, but you understand the burden it would place on your existing company and friends/colleagues.. I think, especially in an informal setting like a few drinks, it would naturally move to how it would affect your current company, and maybe what they can do for you.
I am an extremely firm believer that communication easily eliminates over 95% of people's problems with each other. If you communicate this to your current company, and it goes extremely bad, the decision is made; that's the worst that happens. The best is that you get the companies fighting over you like my mother and get to pick the best for you.
Also, unless these are going to be friends for many, many years, do what YOU have to do. What YOU want to do. Sometimes you have to take care of Number 1 first.
Hope this was helpful
Depends how you've been treated.
If the company has gone out of its way in the past to look after you, then treat them likewise. At the least, you could see if a two month changeover would make their life easier (if the new company would be willing to do that).
If you've been treated as just another employee, then behave that way.
My Journal
First, no matter how bad you think they will be, they will mange without you. They wont be working as smoothly but they will move ahead.
It's easy to think you are more vital than you really are just because you know every tiny intricacy of a system or THE system. Truth is, most capable developers will be able to, within reasonable time, catch up with you. Sometimes even a fresh mind may improve upon things that old ways of thinking didnt. I been at both ends of that reality. It's just the way things are.
Just be as polite as possible, if they approach asking why, you can tell them details of the offer and note that it would just not be wise to take such an offer as it's an increadible career advancement path. Offer as much help as you can, spend the next two weeks writing documentation, be as throughout as you can and helpful. In the future, this employer may be contacted for references so you dont want to be rude either. You want to make sure they can't say anything bad about you. Tell them you love the job, but you must think of your future.
They MAY ask you something along the lines of "what can we do to keep you?". At that point you can ask something along the lines of them matching the pay rate, but (if you are in a large company) it may not happen due to pay increase policies.
But answering the title: No, it does not pay to be loyal. Actually, being loyal is very expensive and comes out of your pocket. What pays is to be polite, efficient, helpful and making job transitions as smoth as you can for your old employer.
I've always been happier at smaller companies than at larger ones. The pay isn't always as good, but that's not the point. Large companies mean large company problems (politics, middle management, more politics). If you work at a small software company, are good, and get along with everybody, that's something I'd gladly take a pay cut for. Good company will always be worth a lot more than money.
And remember, if you have a great relationship with your boss, that's worth a lot too. It'll save you a lot of aggravation in the long run.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, but sometimes it's just because there's more shit.
Always worth bearing in mind, although that doesn't seem to be the case here...
Your only REAL loyalty is to yourself. Make the choice that will make your life better. It's as "easy" as that.
Right after a layoff, that is what our head of engineering told those of us remaining standing. It has forever put my relationship with my employers in stark relief.
In this brutal capitalist world our loyalty is bought in 2 week increments. If the company decides to buy it longer, they can. But if they have not put stock options, retention bonuses, a corner office, a golden parachute, good vacation days per year, or a highly competitive salary on the table already, then it is your fiduciary responsibility to your tiny entrepreneurship (i.e. your household) to seriously consider all other options. Bear in mind that it is likely that if they chose to you would get 2 weeks pay and a boot print on your hindquarters, and your loyalty should be scaled appropriately.
At the same time, weigh any potential hit to your reputation within your field. If you are in a small industry be sure not to burn too many bridges that will hurt you in the future.
In my experience, a *company* has very little ability to be loyal. Despite the best intentions of individual managers who may want to reward your loyalty, the company collectively must, and will, act in the best long-term interest of the shareholders. At the point when your interests sufficiently conflict with those of the shareholders your loyalty will cease to be rewarded.
That being said, transparency is a strategy that has little downside. Provided you approach the conversation with the right tone (and you truly have a firm offer in hand) - this should be an open conversation you can have with your management. For example, you could say something like:
"I've just received an offer from another firm - I would truly prefer to remain here, particularly at this crucial time for our product, however I can't afford to walk away from such a significant pay increase. Can we discuss how to close the gap?"
If you boss says "yes" and brings your pay into alignment with what you now know is your true market value it's easy to stay. If not you have a great new home to look forward to, and you were as open and transparent as anyone could expect you to be.
I've been on the management end of this scenario twice - even in the case where I was unable to convince my employee to stay we parted as friends, and to this day I'm one of his most outspoken promoters.
If I had it to do all over again I would have consistently switched jobs every 3-5 years. For the following reasons: It builds your network of coworkers providing you even more opportunities in the future. Keeps stagnation from setting into your career. Keeps you from doing what you are doing now; over valuing yourself. If you are indeed that valuable to the company they will compensate you but it is always dicey promoting within.
The days of staying with one company and being amply rewarded with things like pensions and raises is long over. Loyalty rarely gets you anything. I've been a software developer for over 20 years. I've worked for roughly four companies in that time. The pay increases I got from switching jobs is about triple that I received for my 'loyalty' (staying with the same company). I recommend giving your two week notice because that's the ethical thing to do.
Since you are so valuable to your company, and to the other company, how about offering to work half time for each of them for a short period, at the end of which you will go to the new company? This way you can provide some assistance, or at least guide them in who to hire to replace you.
Whether you leave your employer, or your employer lets you go, the taste it leaves in your mouths comes from how it's executed.
If your employer lays you off by talking to you personally and taking you out for drinks, then that will leave a much better feeling than if they lock you out of the building, mail you a cardboard box filled with your personal belongings, and threaten to sue you if you work for anyone they feel is a competitor.
Likewise, if you document really well, make yourself available for questions, take everyone out for drinks, and get your coworkers to feel happy for you about the promotion, then that makes a huge difference compared to if you just hand in two weeks notice and split as if you don't care.
If you took the new job...down the road, you'll start looking for another job.
After the interview for that "other job" I'd check your references, which would include the company you'd be dumping at release.
Odds are, they would tell me how you left them high and dry - either directly, or indirectly, and I'd figure it out.
I wouldn't hire you because of that action.
You'd look for some other place, they would do the same thing (one would hope).
Having integrity means a lot to many of us who hire IT/IS folks. I'd rather hire someone with fewer skills that had integrity, than someone like you if you were to leave the company high and dry at release like that.
Just an opinion from the other side.
Short answer: No.
In your posted circumstance: No.
The only possible burn here is if your old company feels (justifiably or not) your leaving hurt them and they go out and slander your reputation - illegal on their part, but could happen. Being 45 minutes from your home, I doubt they can shout loud enough to significantly impact your future employability anywhere you might want to work, but it's the only thing I would consider as a possible negative.
1) 7k UK seems a bit low to jump ship. Bargain with the offering company.
2) DO NOT LET ON TO YOUR CURRENT COMPANY YOU HAVE AN OFFER. You will hose yourself. Instead say something like, "I worked hard on this project and I am training up two others. How about a raise"? Ask for at least 7k. If you see a nice project starting in the near future you would like to work on offer to take the lead position on the project. Move the junior developer more of a maintenance programmer type role, at least until they get more experience. That will sweeten the deal on your current employers end. If they don't pay, and all other things being equal, walk.
3) Remember it is a business decision and I have *never* seen loyalty rewarded. Crunch the numbers. Also look at opportunities for professional growth. Every job should be a stepping stone to a better job. Run your career like a business.
HTH
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Seriously, gaining 1+ hour a day (5 hours a week, 250 hours, or 10.5 days a year) is a huge deal for me.
However, don't let everybody know how close you are. When asked, say "pretty close, like 20 minutes" (if you are actually about 10 minutes away) instead of "I live right across the street" because then you are more accessible.
As for the loyalty thing, your loyalty obligation should be to talk to them, give them an opportunity to try to come to terms. If they cannot provide sufficient term, then you should provide a reasonable transition period (possibly more than the 2 weeks notice, possibly supplementary (PAID) contract work during your time between jobs).
It's not just about the extra 7K plus the shorter distance.
- What about the career prospects in either company? If you're not talking about "career" yet, will the other company offer you anything that will make your CV look better? (certifications / experience / brand name)
- What about the people in the new company? You know the people in your current job, but what about the new job? I wouldn't want to lose my mates so as to enter a highly paid viper pit with everyone back-stabbing everybody else.
- What about the companies themselves? Any solid roadmap? You wouldn't want to join the one company that is doing very well right now but the CEO is short-sighted or has a(n apparently) totally wrong grasp of where the market is going. I'd stick with the company where the management was more insightful and knew what they were doing.
I saw this dilemma from the manager's side just two weeks ago.
I'm an IT consultant for a rail operator and I'm leading a small group of developers within the company, where we're essentially building its IT infrastructures from scratch (and that's LOTS of software, among other things). There's tons of work but the hours are flexible, the atmosphere is relaxed, friendly and informal, the salary is good and overall we're more friends than co-workers. Although this is Greece, the business outlook isn't *that* :) bad for anyone who stays as the consolidation plan we've been implementing is beginning to pay off.
Just two weeks ago one of our developers jumped ship to join a big international company mainly known for its database product (and for upsetting the OSS community at large the last year or so :). Sure, it looks like a safe bet from miles away given the circumstances, but there are *always* pitfalls, so we wanted to make sure he had all the questions straight before he moved on. Hence, we had a very similar conversation to this, on a friendly, person-to-person level.
Your business has one employee, you. You are in business to offer programming (or other technical) services, in exchange for compensation.
In each potential change of employment, you face a decision about costs and benefits. Loyalty is a good thing, and is one of the factors. But it's not everything. Compensation, quality of life, travel requirements, friendships with co-workers, commute time...all of these are factors that go into a decision whether to stay or go.
When you think of yourself as a business, it allows you to look at your employment decisions more objectively, leading to better outcomes for you and for your employer. I've found that it is possible to go to your employer to ask for a raise, based on logical business-related principles, and do it without offending anyone or threatening to leave. If you are indeed as valuable as you think you are, the company will likely make a better offer, and no one has to be resentful about that.
Have they been loyal to you?
Have they shown that you're valuable to them, and I don't mean "did they pay your salary on time", did they give you the feeling that you are viewed as an asset, were they considerate when you were in an emergency and needed their aid, be it time off or some cash in advance?
In a nutshell: Do they deserve your loyalty?
That's essentially the question. Do you consider the job one where you are comfortable? Is that where you want to be? I have rejected "better" jobs because my current employer does actually value me as an asset, they were very accommodating when I got sick and I do consider that an asset that can't be paid for with money. I am loyal, because they showed me very clearly that they deserve my loyalty. And I tend to take this quite serious.
I would consider whether the company is a good place to work at, more than job opportunity or money. If you're treated like a hire and fire drone, money doesn't matter.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
nope.
this is the other (rarely used) side of the lever of capitalism. deal with it.
It's not just about the extra 7K plus the shorter distance.
- What about the career prospects in either company? If you're not talking about "career" yet, will the other company offer you anything that will make your CV look better? (certifications / experience / brand name)
- What about the people in the new company? You know the people in your current job, but what about the new job? I wouldn't want to lose my mates so as to enter a highly paid viper pit with everyone back-stabbing everybody else.
- What about the companies themselves? Any solid roadmap? You wouldn't want to join the one company that is doing very well right now but the CEO is short-sighted or has a(n apparently) totally wrong grasp of where the market is going. I'd stick with the company where the management was more insightful and knew what they were doing.
I saw this dilemma from the manager's side just two weeks ago.
I'm an IT consultant for a rail operator and I'm leading a small group of developers within the company, where we're essentially building its IT infrastructures from scratch (and that's LOTS of software, among other things). There's tons of work but the hours are flexible, the atmosphere is relaxed, friendly and informal, the salary is good and overall we're more friends than co-workers. Although this is Greece, the business outlook isn't *that* :) bad for anyone who stays as the consolidation plan we've been implementing is beginning to pay off and the boss knows what he's doing.
Just two weeks ago one of our developers jumped ship to join a big international company mainly known for its database product (and for upsetting the OSS community at large the last year or so :). Sure, it looks like a safe bet from miles away given the circumstances, but there are *always* pitfalls, so we wanted to make sure he had all the questions straight before he moved on. Hence, we had a very similar conversation to this, on a friendly, person-to-person level.
I'm no longer fed up with MS Windows: I go rid of them
The short-term time and cash benefits of moving are clear: an extra hour for you each day, and more than £300 better off each month after the Exchequer's take.
Now think:
-What are you learning in your current workplace? What would you learn at the new one? Not only from the point of view of technology, but also from a wider business perspective.
-How do the two businesses differ? Think present business model, future prospects, etc. Don't just consider how the companies pay salaries today, but how they will continue doing it tomorrow.
And now for the final one:
-How would the new workplace challenge, strain and push you further compared to the current one?
-How would you improve as a professional in the new job?
I've left a couple companies, one of them twice, where I enjoyed working with the people was immediately around but due to acquisitions or change in corporate management I felt the overall company wasn't a good fit anymore. In all of these cases, and even now when I'm looking at what is out there, I ask myself a simple question: are they loyal to me? Unless it's a small company that is still small I have no doubts that they would get rid of me at any point it made business sense. So why should I not look out for #1, too? Plus, there's the bus situation. As much as we'd like to think we're indispensable, if something were to happen to someone things will be a mess for awhile but everyone left will find a way to make it work. If it's a better deal for me then business will go on.
Twice I've had job offers which were clearly better than my current job. I wanted to remain on good terms, so I explained the situation. Both times they didn't counter, they knew it was a better job, and they understood why it would be foolish not to take it.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
You want to be only as loyal as makes sense to you. For every story of how workers being loyal has been good I can relate stories of how businesses made decisions that amounted to "sorry, things are bad, had to cut you, and can't afford a dime of severance, wish we could, but bummer" at 4:48pm on a Tuesday.
Depending upon how close you are to finishing a project, you could ask for a touch more time from your new job and then tell your current employer "I can stay 6 weeks if you'd like to finish all this up, if you are willing to pay me at my new pay rate" Don't give them an extra money and give up 800 pounds!
But in the end, companies that wish to staff so thin that they get single points of failure are no different that hosting companies that don't do backups to save money and then expect expect everyone to work crazy hours when their primary storage fails after several years -- they all want everything but don't want to pay for it.
Be true to yourself and do what you think is right. Everything else is bullshit. Go against your own personal code and you will regret it.
I was in a similar situation, so I proposed to my former boss that I would work for them part time at off hours. They had no other choice until they could get the other people up to speed. I worked for them for another 4 months, I helped the old company, moved on to better things, and made lots of extra cash in the process.
Over the last 4 years I've managed a rather good run of moving up to bigger/better positions. In each case I have had to answer the "what would it take to keep you here" question and in each case I said that I wasn't interested in renegotiating. Upping my pay or asking for more of "X" changes the relationship in a way that cannot ever be undone, and odds are it doesn't solve the underlying problem anyway. More money for you doesn't solve the bad manager / small budget / long commute problem and any/all of those things will wear on you over time. Find someplace you like with a low idiot and/or psycopath to normal person ratio, remember to keep your skills current, and work to increase your value to the company just because it can't hurt.
Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
screw up a few times, then see how "loyal" your "friends and colleagues" are to you.
'nuff said?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
They're been been in business for at least several years and they have higher management? Then they should be big enough to absorb the loss of any one developer at any time. Otherwise, they're not really run right. And in that case you should want to leave because that indicates poor planning abilities and you may be forced to get another job in the future anyway when they close down due to their poor planning.
Do whats right for you. The company will survive without you - and if it won't the owners of the company are foolish for not looking after you better, and they don't deserve your loyalty.
As a couple of people on here have said, the 90m back each day could be worth much more than the 7k from a quality of life perspective.
Plus I bet its only 90m on a good day, I bet you have days when its 90m each way !
That 90m per day represents 7.5 hours of your time per week.
Consider that you work 40 hours per week, and if you sleep 8 hours per night you sleep 56 hours per week and that the week is only 168 hours long.
168 - 40 - 56 = 72
So all this means if you get 7.5 hours back you have a little bit more than 10% more "you" time, which is massive.
Alex
As an engineer we take pride in our work. we want the company we work for to do well, even if you no longer to work for them. The company policies and how the company treats it's ex employee are dictated by its HR People. My experience tells me they are trained to be heartless and view every decision they take in terms of money. they think with their head. Move on ! it's your life and family that are more important. I am sure you will find new challenges in your new position.
To avoid burning the bridge, I tell your current employer that it's about the commute, not the money. Try to get some consulting hours on the side with them for a few months (you'll have 7.5 hours per week extra now) to soften the blow.
I was in this exact situation, although the pay/opportunities difference was rather more stark. I'm friends with the owner and I was the lead developer and the only person that could take on the broader and larger software/systems issues.
Philosophy: as much as you care for the company they're not your friends or family in the business context and no business is worth sacrificing yourself for. You must realise that if it's a matter of business necessity, as much as the people in the company may care for you, they would also do the equivalent - make you redundant - if necessary.
Leaving the company doesn't mean you have to leave them in the lurch. I'm consulting for the company I used to work for (I negotiated this ability into my new contract). I can still take care of the big issues that no one else can at my old company and this actually means the old company has become a more efficient business as they only pay me to handle the issues that I truly need to handle. Sometimes I wish I had more free time in the evenings, but because I care for the people there I'll continue to consult until the company is in a good technical position that I'm comfortable with.
Now I've left my old company I've seen the other developer grow as a developer and, unexpectedly, I believe I've become a more effective lead there as I'm more inclined to discuss and outline a solution rather than implement it myself.
In your situation I would move, as long as I was going to work for people I respect and I believed I would grow as a person in the new environment. The extra 1 1/2 hours of the day you'll save in commuting is a very significant chunk of time too - equivalent to a 20% salary raise in itself.
Your dedication and loyalty becomes worthless the minute new management comes along, or the company is sold. If you really feel loyalty to your co-workers keep them in mind if jobs that suit them open up at your new employer. Also, don't bother with offering your current employer the opportunity to match, it almost always results in surprisingly tiny increases afterwards, where a new employer is likely to consider your salary a starting point, your current employer probably sees you at the top of your pay scale. Either way, good luck and congrats :-)
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
Switching jobs for short-term reasons (like a salary increase) is not a good idea. If you think that switching to the other job at this point of time is a good idea for you considering your long term aspirations, then I think you should go ahead and do it.
In general, employees are potentially more valuable to their own companies than to other companies. Therefore, in general, companies should make sure that employees are compensated well enough when compared to their market rates. If your current company pays you lesser than your true economic market value, then it means that either (a) your company is stupid, or (b) your company has contingency plans in place for the possibility of you leaving. Either way, you are better off leaving if you think the new job is a better one. Loyalty is always a good thing, but good management is also important. If your managers did their jobs properly, they won't be hurt too bad by you leaving. If not, that's their fault, not yours.
But of course, make sure that you comply with all terms of your agreement with respect to notice period, etc.
Loyalty doesn't mean that you can't ever take another job. It does, however, mean that you should be nice about it. Give your existing company as much notice as you possibly can (in a situation like this, I'd recommend at least a month if at all possible). Be respectful, and don't burn any bridges you can leave standing. If the new company has even an ounce of brain, they'll respect this, or at least accept it.
If you want to do a little more than that for them, you could offer to do a _few_ hours of consulting afterward (paid, of course), working around your new work schedule -- not coming back to work for them part time long-term or anything, just helping their new guys out a little here or there at first when they have questions that only you can answer on account of the fact that they weren't up to speed yet when you left. So if two days after you leave they realize "Oh, man, we totally forgot to ask him anything about how the frobnicator is set up" they don't have to panic and slit their wrists.
If *that* doesn't sound like enough, maybe you're so into your current job that you might consider staying. But that's up to you. You're under no obligation to stay. (I'm assuming here that your employment is at-will, as is usual in the US, not contracted for some predetermined amount of time.)
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
I thought this was going to suck. But a lot of good advice going both directions above (at least the 5 and 4 mods). I'm a company owner, and hope staff like you would come and talk about it. If someone has been a good and loyal staff, what is best for YOU counts a lot with me. I generally know when someone is bluffing... Not recommended
Gently reply
Absolutely. First, listen to your gut. If you think it would be a betrayal, that's because it would be, in some sense.
So: tell the new company you are going to need an extra two weeks to finish up at the old one, and that you'd extend the same courtesy to them if they were in the same predicament. Because you're honest and loyal.
If the new company is really worth working for, they will say "damn straight skippy, we'd sure like to have you sooner but this just proves we were right to choose you!". If the new company is really a bunch of backstabbing rapacious bastards who have every intention of using you up and throwing you away at their earliest convenience, they will say "Oh, no, it's our way or the highway, you insignificant peon". In which case you don't really want to work for them, it just seems that way right now.
So, assuming the new company is worth working for, and they give you the extra two weeks, you then go back to the old company and tell them "look, unless you are moving the whole business to be next door to my house, you can't match these guys' offer. But I negotiated an extra two weeks out of them so that I can help you get the new guys up to speed - so let's get doing that, now".
People (reasonable people, anyway) understand that you need to do what's right for you, and will appreciate the extra effort you've put into trying to accommodate others' needs too.
First, what kind of car does your boss drive? Is there some useless employee that earns more than you but could be tossed overboard in a second? These things will tell you if there is some money around for you.
Second. Once those two juniors are trained up for less salary how useful will you be. Would you be first to be tossed in a cutback? If they gave a crap about you then other companies couldn't match or beat your salary so easily.
Lastly don't negotiate from 7K down. If they offer you 3K to stay tell them yes if that is 3K over the 7K. Even then the new company wants you to start at 7K more whereas your company might resent your 7K demand. The only reason their feelings would be hurt by your "disloyalty" is if they have done something special for you. Exchanging work for money is not special.
Every decision you take will have benefits and drawbacks to it. Showing loyalty to your company, managers, and coworkers may in time pay off. But, equally as well it may not. I've definitely had managers who have helped me at critical junctures in my career but I've had even more managers just leave the company and effectively leave me without an advocate. I've been friends with many of them and trusted them. But, when the time came for them to make the decisions for themselves they had to choose what was best for them. Just as you will need to choose what is best for you based on your own values and needs.
Ultimately speaking though, playing brinkmanship with an employer is never a good idea. You may be able to play an offer in hand for more money now, but likely as not you will spoil whatever relationship you have had with your management at that point in time.
The best way to approach the situation is to approach your manager without mentioning the offer and tell him that you would like a raise. You will need to create a business case and present it very clearly as to why you feel you deserve a raise. Call out the work that you have done, the leadership you have shown, present where you are in terms of salary versus the market average for your area and skillset.
If after that your management team is unable or unwilling to provide you with a pay increase, or fall short of what you feel it would take to keep you there then and only then accept the other job offer and tell your manager that you'll be leaving to accept a different job.
Your manager may very well be sorry to see you leave but will respect you much more for not playing brinkmanship, not trying to leverage the one offer to change your current situation. He or she will instead see that you made a business case and gave them a fair chance to keep you without playing the brinkmanship game. They will know that they lost you because they were unable or unwilling to follow through on your request.
If you don't have the time then make the judgement based on your own personal values and needs right now. If the offer is going to go away if you don't accept this week or next, then make your decision based on the facts at hand. As cheesy as it may be make a pros and cons list for both staying with your current employer and for taking the other job. It's a very valuable means of determining the relative worth of each for yourself. By seeing the words that you are willing to write down to justify each position you'll find your answer.
If you have good relationship with your managers you may not feel like bargaining. £7k doesn't sound much assuming this is on annual salary. But those 1.5 hrs of commute you are saving can be much more beneficial. You are recovering about 8% of your waking life which could be spent in better way.
In the long run you know this new job is more beneficial for you. So start talking to your managers, not for bargaining but to explain your scenario. Tell them you do need to quit, but give them time to plan your departure so that there is no feeling of betrayal. If given some time, they can recruit someone capable enough to take it over from you. If the other company really wants you they will relax their joining date.
But before you talk, you should make up your mind on what you want. All the best.
I think this really depends on the company, the place I used to work for was a small family run company, there was a few insanely loyal employees who had been there for longer than I've been out of high school (and in one case longer than I've been alive), unfortunately for them when redundancies were announced my job was safer than theirs and somebody who had been with the company for about 30 years, would work on his holidays if requested, never had a sick day and knew the directors since they were kids, he was one of the first people to be made redundant, another who had been working for the company had been there for about 15 years was also up for redundancy.
It was a small family company, we all got on well, it was a close knit group and we'd all quite happily go to the pub together, but at the end of the day it's a business, they'll put the company first if it comes to it so you need to make sure you put yourself first.
You're evil to do this to them. It is clear you are setting up the situation. Nasty.
By "outsourcing" some of the work, the company has already shown their colors. Just go.
Don't bargain for more, 'cause that will simply put you at the top of the "to be replaced" list. Do offer some strictly described and limited in time and intensity "tech support", either for a fee or for free, unless they are a competitor for your new "temp job" ('cause that's all they are, these days).
“Loyalty where loyalty is due” - and - “communication is key” will prove useful to you. At the very least you should explain the situation to your current employer. If your employer gives you a reason to be loyal, then be loyal. Money is only part of the equation, be flexible and negotiate.
If you are ever undecided about an action to take from a purely financial perspective, just ask yourself, which one action is more evil?
Pull this stunt, other company offer falls through, you've alienated original employer (they're justifiably pissed at your pulling this) and now you're out of work, in this economy, have a bad mark on your resume, can't get another job in your field, have to go work flipping burgers at MickyD's. Wife/girlfriend/boyfriend thinks you screwed up big time and breaks up with you. No apartment or house. No shower. Boss at MickyD's tells you not to show up looking so grungy. You get fired again. Dole runs out. You're out on the street. Have fun.
Take the new job.
Management would beat with a pool cue until you had dettached retinas for less money than that. Do you really think that management wouldn't sell out their employees for a buck? They already outsourced a big chunk of the code you said. One way loyalty is simply holding the hand that holds you down.
There's an old quote you need to keep in mind: "The employee who has loyalty to the company is a fool, as the company has no loyalty to the employee."
Loyalty in employment is not a two way street. Companies are loyal to their profits, not employees. And that's not a problem. They exist to make money, not to keep someone employed.
Even the best company I've worked at with regards to loyalty to employees (a small/mid-sized business) ended up having to lay off nearly 80% of their staff due to loss of their anchor customer. This was 9 weeks after employees agreed to go on minimums (essentially $250/week) to help with cash flow issues as the company tried to recover the customer. Of course, it wasn't until the layoffs that people discovered unemployment benefits were based upon the average of the previous 8 or 12 weeks, and the company would be saving a ton in unemployment benefits insurance costs.
So, you need to view this situation for what it is. No one is really an employee. We are all in business for ourselves as contractors--some of us just have longer term contracts than others. You need to determine whether it makes business sense for you to move.
And ask yourself, if the situation were reversed and the company discovered the tangibles and intangibles of keeping you around were a little too expensive, would they keep you out of loyalty?
As pointed out above, relationships are paramount; at the same time, you'll never get paid more if you don't pursue it. It's best to go to your boss and lay out exactly what the situation is. Tell them you like what you do and you feel that leaving now may be very hard on the project; at the same time you were offered a very attractive position with more pay and less commute. See how they react and what they offer. They may very well be OK with you leaving; they may counter offer or they may say that they can not offer you more but would very much like you to stay.
They already know you're a good employee and can deliver; this will work in your future. They will also know that you're not a shady guy going after money when you lay out your situation as well as you did here.
One important thing is; do you have any prospect for moving up within your current organization? The new one? What is your job security, how about the new company? You'd had to trade in a less paying, albeit, secure job for a better paying job which may terminate at any moment; after all, we're still in the downturn.
All that said, it is true for almost everyone that money follows job changes not loyalty. I'm still on the fence with career; sticking it out is better at being promoted, in my opinion, provided you let your superiors know that you want to be promoted.
Be generous and give them your standard 2 weeks notice after making DAMN SURE the job offer is solid.
Make sure the offer with the next company is firm, in writing, and they can spare you long enough to let you give your old boss the required notice.
If the new company refuses to play ball with you, take it as a sign that they're probably not going to treat you well if they can't even be bothered to get their paperwork in order or let you be courteous to your former boss.
If the old company can't handle losing you in 2 weeks, take it as a sign that their own house is probably not in order well enough, and it's easily suggestible that you're on a sinking ship anyway.
Be nice and be professional to both sides and cover your ass.
The question was, does it pay? Obviously not as well as the new position will.
Now why did you have to read through 542 other posts to get to the simple answer?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Jack Welch, former CEO of GE, once said that whenever he had to decide between what was better for the company versus what was better for himself, he chose himself.
So I'm a boss of a small manufacturing line (product I invented when I was an engineer). I have 35 direct reports. I have several that I feel are key, but I can tell you this, I can replace anyone of them and survive even though I tell them I can't live without them. If one of my employees comes and asks me honestly what they should do in your situation, I say, leave. I'll even give them a great reference if they ask and deserve such. If life will be better for you in the other company, go to the greener pasture. If you stay and bring your "what if" regrets to work with you every day, you'll bring the rest of my staff down with you. So go, be free and happy!
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First company I worked for was a great place to work - small but growing, varied work, nice salary increases (yes, this was almost 20 years ago). I left rather regretfully - personal circumstances meant I'd had to move out of the area, but they even helped me out by taking me on as a contractor for the first six months in my new location, while I got on my feet there.
Later, after my next employer had been and gone and I'd been out of work for some time, they came back and asked if I wanted to telecommute. Didn't work particularly well, but they stuck by me even when I went through a burnout and had to go on short-term disability until my brain was less fried.
However, all it took was one incident with miscommunication between two managers, which resulted in one of them losing face, and I went from being prized to getting a lousy review (which I protested as strongly as I could) and put on a probationary period - where I was put to work doing something completely different from what I was really hired for, and generally treated like scum before finally being laid off (and I later heard they were very pleased because they'd found out that the money saved could pay for two outsourced developers).
So - small firms can be good, but the very smallness that makes them sometimes great places to work can turn on your very quickly, and it's much easier to get canned because of a personality clash or an idiot who wants somebody else to take the fall for their mistake. Your company has already demonstrated that they aren't above outsourcing. You might feel bad about doing it at a time when your company sees you as their golden boy, but if the sheen wears off once those two junior developers get up to speed, that perceived loyalty on their part may evaporate. Go with the better offer - while people within companies may be nice or decent, companies themselves basically don't give a damn, and even a CEO who is your best buddy one day can turn on a dime and can you the next. Having a good offer from elsewhere is getting to be a rare thing - don't miss the opportunity. It's good that you're not jaded enough to automatically think that way - I've gotten to the point where I'll work for nobody but myself, I've got complete distrust of employers.
It's a business decision for you as much as it is for them. Make the decision based on what benefits you most.
With 1.5 hours/day given back to your life, you'll have time to make new friends.
Loyalty is a temporary thing these days.
As soon as your current employer is not desperate to retain your services, they won't hesitate to get rid of you. That day might come as soon as those junior developers are up to speed. Therefore, unless you are desperate to retain your job, do what is best for YOU.
It is a tough decision to make but at the end of the day, you have to make the decision that will be best for you, as awful as it may seem. I don't know anything about your current but my experience has been that companies make decisions everyday that benefit them more than their employees. I wouldn't say stay at the weaker company unless you feel there is some personal benefit to be attained by staying, Shares, Professional Growth, etc., I would say go with the company that offers more growth and personal development. The money while important wouldn't necessarily be something I use to decide because I have seen companies offer large salaries then freeze your wages once you are on board, at the end of the day make the decision you believe is best for your future, nobody else will.
I hate the expression "we're all one big family [at this company]". It is a lie. The company is just another marketplace.
One of my best bosses told me "keep your resume on the street. You should know how much you are worth. If someone offers you a lot more money, please give me a chance to match it."
We exist in a market environment. Companies will lay you off at any point without thinking about your situation. Creative destruction is going on all around us.
Two weeks notice is a reasonable thing, but even that is not a hard and fast rule depending on the situation. No one owns you, you own you.
Short answer: No. To expand on that: No, being loyal does not pay as a developer.
I live a 3 minute walk from work. It's extremely difficult to put a price tag on this (you'd have 1.5 hours of more waking time per day!). There's monetary savings as well, lack of operating a vehicle most days saves a ton of money.
One thing the OP hasn't mentioned, is whether his current employer offers telecommuting. Meaning, would he be able to work from home 2 or 3 days a week?
In my opinion, I would act professionally and tender my notice, effective 2-3 weeks out. You are working for yourself after all and not the company. If the company ran into some problem, they would not have any problem laying you and your staff off. Make sure you have tidied up the project with documentation and as much training as possible, maybe offering to provide some consulting time (for a fee!) if required.
I have worked for large companies and small contracting companies. In my opinion: when things are going well for the company, you are a loyal employee. If things go south, your salary and benefits are part of the re-structuring to save the company.
In a word: stay! Stay, stay, stay! Go with your gut and stay where you are.
Loyalty is important to you, and it's important to the people you currently work with - with, not for. It's very questionable and unlikely that it will be valued at the company you are considering. Consider what you are leaving behind that you may not get back. A place where you are good friends with the upper management, and a shared sense of loyalty. These are intangibles that don't contribute to a paycheck but they do contribute to your job satisfaction. Your work is your life, and you must ask yourself if you are willing to work a job that you may hate but pays well, and how much time and income are you willing to give up to do something you love?
Also consider, if moving up the corporate ladder is important to you, this is a small company on the verge of their big launch. Odds are, even if they fail, that you will move up as the company grows, faster than if you join a smaller company. You know the dynamics of your company, not us, so you must be the judge of that.
This should be a no-brainer. Stick with your current job.
That would be an easy choice for me- take the new job. Getting back 90 minutes of your life a day is by far sufficient reason to leave; forget about the 7k, that's just a bonus. I don't know if you have a family or not, but that extra time with my children would make this a no-brainer.
Very, very few people (if any) are irreplaceable. You may be appreciated but your company will do just fine without you, I wouldn't worry about that. And if your friends there are really your friends, they will continue to be your friends even after you move to the new company. This is how it has worked for me in the past.
I worked in IT at a mortgage company for three years and got laid off before one of my less senior co workers as the company began its slow implosion. I had been there longer than him and my boss.
I had been at a different mortgage company for three years when my boss left with a better job. He took me aside and said he had a position there for me and could set up an interview with his new boss if I liked. I interviewed and was offered the job for $6000 more than I was making. I told my employers and offered them the opportunity to counter-offer, expressing my love of the job and desire to stay. They declined and I put in my notice.
On my last day my employer came to me and said the execs had changed their minds because of everything I did around the place, that they'd bump me $6000. I was extremely pleased, and the raise was effective immediately. Three months later I was laid off with half the IT department. I tried to contact my old boss and got no response; that bridge had been burned by me staying on at my old job.
Obviously I think you should take the job without another thought. Believe me, no one cares about you but you.
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Well, he didn't say they LITERALLY killed off the work force, so I'm assuming he meant "killed" as a euphemism for "fired".
(cue the confused posts about them making their employees combust!)
Think of your company as a big bucket of water. Make a fist in your hand. You are represented by the fist. Now place your fist in the water. That is you, working for your company. To simulate what it would be like if you left, take your first out of the water. See what happened there?
I'm loyal to me. I recently left a good job for a new higher paying less commute job. I love the extra money and the shorter commute. So go for it.
I know myself, so I know bargaining just tends to make me angry...but if you do it, definitely have a plan. If you want a raise, just ask for it and don't try to bludgeon management with another offer. I'll say hey boss I'm ready for a $10k raise (but more flowery). Then if you don't like what they offer, you can always reply with: I'm disappointed with your offer of $5k, it doesn't seem in line with my value to the company or in the marketplace, I'd really like $10k. If they still don't budge, just leave.
I was in a similar situation two years ago. My day to day was quite good, but the company, which was a startup, was struggling, and I was pulling crazy hours. Megacorp made me an offer for 30k more to do similar work. I jumped on it. Little did I know that this company was embarking on a policy of making big offers, and then laying everyone off who they don't think is a star. I was laid off. It sucked. I got a job relatively quickly, with higher pay even, and it sucks too. Crazy 70 hour weeks with lots of weekend work, very competitive environment.
My point is, be careful about making moves. If you are getting along alright and you are happy, maybe its best to stay, at least in this economy (I am pretty sure the UK is in similar shape as the US).
Take the new job. Your relationship with the company is a business relationship. They'll only keep you around as long as they feel you're contributing sufficiently to the bottom line. You should evaluate the company the same way. If someone came along and offered to do your job for less pay you'd be on the street in a heartbeat. When someone offers you more money to work for them, take it.
Companies have no loyalty to you, you should have none for them. The old company, and any other, including the new one, would not think twice about throwing your ass out on the street. Maximize your revenues at all times against the day when you have none.
You are asking for permission to improve your life. Just do it. Everyone is replaceable. Leave good documentation for stuff that is hard to figure out. If you have been a good employee then you would have done that as a matter of course anyway. Give them sufficient notice and help them as much as possible during your transition out period.
Pay and commute are two of the main factors that generally affect your overall happiness at work. As you already realize, the new job would give you a nice chunk of additional pay, plus an extra hour and a half with your family each day!. Even if you have to stay late at the office occasionally, you're still coming out ahead. And if your work friends are actually good friends who matter to you, then you'll still keep in touch and get together outside of work. So, for the sake of your family's stability and relationship with you, and for your own work-life happiness, you should definitely take the new job.
But that doesn't have to mean that you leave with a standard two weeks' notice. When I left my last job, I was in a similarly important position, so I gave six months' notice to the CEO, and my job during the last few months was almost entirely documentation and knowledge transfer. Talk with your supervisor, and explain why you are intending to take the new position, but also discuss how you can minimize (or "minimise", I suppose?) the impact of your departure.
Your new employers, assuming they are good businessfolk, would understand that you have to finish your current obligations before starting with them, and that you may not be able to join them for a few months. They'll appreciate that you took such care in making sure your impending exit goes smoothly and with minimal disruption to business, because they know that you'll one day leave them too, and likely take the same care. And your current employers will obviously appreciate you not leaving them in the lurch.
No.
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
In the U.S., corporations stopped caring about their employees in the 1990s, started massive out-sourcing/off-shoring in the 2000s, now it's every man for himself. Take the bigger paycheck and commute less.
One caveat: beware of going from a good group into a bunch of losers, as that would surely take a lot of the fun out of the change of jobs.
Loyalty will cost you much, and benefit you little. Don't be a dick, give them a few weeks notice, but take the job that's better for you.
As a senior developer, shouldn't your salary be high enough that an additional 7k a year isn't all that much, just an extra month's worth?
You should ask your current employer for a raise to match your new offer. If they don't match it, then no, it obviously doesn't pay to be loyal.
Your question is astonishing. Maybe England is very very very different from America. But, here, being loyal is regarded by management as a character defect. They would cut your throat in a New York minute. Go for the new job and keep your eyes peeled after you get there too!
Don't think you are as needed as you suppose. As the saying goes, "The graveyard is filled with people once thought of as irreplaceable."
I understand the feeling, you want the job to be more than just a relationship of convenience and profit. It seldom works out like that. It might feel that way for a while, but hit an economic downturn, or face a suddenly buyout or change in upper management and you'll soon see the reality. You need to do what is in your personal best interest, taking everything into account (not just the money). If it was in the best interest of the company to lay you off, they'd do it in an instant, and likely with a lot fewer qualms as you feel now.
good luck!
Peace, or Not?
I work for a small company. The people here are great, but I'm earning all the company can afford to pay. Over the past year head hunters have contacted me (some even calling my office number!) with offers in the $10-20k more per year range. I've always told them I had to finish one last project for my current company. When I could see that the project was about to be complete, I let my boss know of some of the offers. I assured that I would see the project to the end, but I owed it to myself to at least investigate the other companies. My boss thanked me for my integrity. He said that as my friend he thinks I should do what's best for me, but as my boss he'll miss having me on the team. There was no counter offer, nor any expectation of one. I'm leaving on good terms.
Take the offer, but then offer to your (now) former employee that you can help/consult/be available in the evenings or weekends for particularly difficult problems. Offer to do it for free and if they do value you, they might be willing to pay you for it. Your junior developers will be grateful but not as grateful as the owners.
This has worked for me twice in the past. You don't burn bridges, and in fact strengthen relationships. You will probably find, as I did, that your period of working two jobs will last less than a month.
Take the money (and commute) and run. This shouldn't even be a question.
in the end you must understand that in 99% of cases, they would end up booting you out if it was required. Loyalty only goes as far, then it's down to business.
There was an unknown error in the submission.
Everyone feels like they betrayed the company when they leave, its worst when you are "the man" and you know it. You are trying to blame a software release, lets face it, its never a good time and you will never bring your junior developers to your level. So you should ask your self why do I really want to leave, its not about money. Your company might be little but they could give you a 7K raise/bonus and let you work from home. As for your co-workers if they consider you their friends now, then they will still be your friend after you've left. So ask your self why are really leaving ?
As a developer, you're a resource and nothing more: if you leave, they'll get a new one. Take care of yourself because no one else will. :) It sounds like your lot in life has just improved dramatically (getting back that time wasted on the commute is HUGE), so congratulations!
Lookup the price of loyalty in government economic statistics, on the stock exchange, anywhere really.
How much should you pay for loyalty?
No price? didn't think so, it therefore can't come into your decision.
I work with and mentor a lot of younger developers and many of them have come to me with this situation. I am a director at a software company and tell the guys/gals that I mentor, as well as my employee's that work for me, that their is only one to deal with the situation. You need to go to your boss and have an open and honest conversation with them. You should tell you boss that you got an offer from another company that you are very interested in because the money is better and the commute is shorter or hat ever it is that makes that offer appealing. Tell them that you feel conflicted about taking this job because you know you are an important part of a team that you really feel loyal to. Explain to them what is that is important to you (type of work, money, time with your family, commute, etc). Just be honest with them and yourself. If you want to stay with the company and just want more money then tell them that. Unfortunately you are not as integral to your company as you think you are, that goes for everyone including myself. If you are that integral then you shouldn't be working for that company anyway because they are in a really bad position that a single person can shut their company down. Be open and be honest and things will work. Know what you want and go get it. I have had people that worked for me come to me with this situation and sometimes I was able offer them something and make things work for us, but sometimes they were just getting an offer that I felt was well above market value and I couldn't match that. I am always willing to try and match an offer for an employee. I understand just like most bosses should that no matter how loyal an employee is someone can always offer them something that will make them consider leaving. If someone told me that they would never leave their current company for anything I would offer a million dollar sign bonus. Once they started thinking about it I would know that we could negotiate. I'm not saying I could give them what they wanted, but there is always something that would make someone make that decision. If the offer is market value or at least around it and the employee is what the company needs I will try and match it. The first rule of negotiation is know what you want before you start negotiating. There has never been any animosity toward any employee that has had this conversation with me. I respect anyone that is honest with me. If you decide to leave which I think you may, remember to be fair to both sides always offer the appropriate amount of notice, in the states it's 2 weeks, always ask if there is anything else reasonable that you can do. Like giving more notice if the new employer can work with that or working as a consultant after hours if you can do that. Be fair to yourself. You do not owe your current employer anything, just like people before me have said you are obligated to work for each week that they paid you. You have the choice at any time to leave for any reason that you wish. Don't let the new company or the old one put unreasonable demands on you. Don't fear the unknown and when all else is equal just go with your gut. If you leave your current job on good terms and the new one doesn't work out, you can usually go back. If not, you can get another job.
Loyalty goes both ways, if you need the money be open and tell them they offered more money and more time for you. If you're smart, you value your time, so ask to get 2-3 days a week of working from home to save the 45x2 minutes. If they are willing to negotiate this then it sounds like it's a pretty good place to work at, otherwise why be loyal?
I haven't done it myself since I've been self-employed for ... well what seems like forever, but I have seen several people leave their jobs only to come back as contractors days later with a 300% bump in their pay. A company of any size will have limits on what they pay people internally. Those rules generally don't apply to contractors with very specialized knowledge.
It's not the fact that you have a hammer that gets you paid, it's the fact that you know what, where, when, why, and how to whack whatever it is that needs fixing.
This is really a question of your priorities, and a little bit about whether you think your current company is likely to be successful; I say that because a small company generally has much better growth potential, but also a much higher chance of failing.
Personally I think the pay rise you mention is pretty small change. The convenience of the commute is nice. But it seems to me much more important to ask yourself if the new/bigger company offers you a better career opportunity than your existing one. Another important consideration is the personal relationships you have at your current position. In my 25+ years in software, those relationships have been far and away more important than any other consideration.
Is the new offer solid? Is it subject to references? Is the new company solid, or a startup that could disappear? You'll need a good reference from your present employer if the new company tanks, but if it's a long term contract or a permanent post with the new company then that may not be such an issue. Is the new post one that you'd enjoy? There's lots of people saying "screw them, they'd screw you" but from what I know of small dev companies in the UK, I think they're showing a US bias.
You've given us an figure for the income raise you're getting, rather than a %age, so I can't really tell what level you're at, which would be useful (though I understand why you may not share this). Will this take you into the higher-rate tax band (making that £7k smaller, losing family allowance from 2013, other considerations)? Flat salary isn't everything, you need to consider pension and other benefits (I'm sure you have, but you haven't shared that, so we can't figure that in).
Share your quandary with your company. The 45 min commute is costing you, both in hours and quality of life. Give them a chance to step up and match the offer + compensation for that commute. If your leaving will cost them as much as you say, they'll be happy to do that, and you'll have shown your loyalty by giving them this chance, but be sure to spell out exactly what you're expecting from them. Your CV will be enhanced if you stick with them to getting a 'flagship' product out the door, and if they're really your friends and have proper business acumen they'll be happy to have this chance to keep you. Just be sure that you're strong enough to resist any "jam tomorrow" promises and stress that this isn't a bluff or blackmail attempt (not in those words, though). Unless you live in the middle of a tech zone, they're going to know who's offering you the job, so be certain that whoever you approach isn't somebody who's going to wreck your new offer. If you have any doubts about this strategy, that's probably a sign that you don't really trust your present company and you should just jump ship.
Good luck, whatever you do. Note that if any of your present company management are ./ers then they'll probably finger you for this post if you approach them, not that that should matter, you've been very honest about your dilemma, just don't be surprised.
If you trust your boss, talk to him about it. You really have nothing to lose, assuming the other place doesn't suck to work at. Check the other place out to be sure it's not a burn-n-churn operation, but you probably already did that.
Tell your present manager what's going on and be open to offering suggestions: working one or two days a week from home is nice and you'll have less distractions and be more productive; there's a new technology you'd like to explore that also would be good for your present company to have experience in; maybe you want more managerial experience (not my thing, but I've seen people pull this off and do well at it);
Worst case your manager gets pissed and forces your hand. Bummer you have a job walking distance from home at more money :-).
Stay in touch with your friends at your present job if you leave. Networking is a really nice thing. Offer to help them out over any rock parts in the code if they need help. No one at your new job will object to an occasional 1/2 hour call on your lunch break helping out your old coworkers. You help them and if the new place doesn't work out they may be in a position to help you if they move on to someplace new (that's happened to me many times).
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Treat it like any normal relationship. Don't stay because of guilt, stay because you're happy.
Check very carefully on working conditions and such at the new job. Talk to some employees there and see what they think.
If it checks out, I would take the new job. When it comes to this line of work, you generally have to move out to move up. Job loyalty is a thing of the past, every since companies stopped rewarding it.
The bare fact that you are asking /. for advice shows that you want to complete the project roll-out and fulfill your responsibility. If the new company really wanted you then they would wait.
Be under no illusions: when times turn bad for your present company, they'll toss you over the side like a used kleenex. Your first priority -- your prime directive -- is to look out for yourself.
It's the job of the company's management to manage risks, and one of the risks they face is losing their main development resources (whether voluntarily or involuntarily -- you could get hit by a bus). They need to manage that risk by ensuring -- in terms of compensation -- that the risk of voluntary departure is minimized. Clearly they have failed to do so adequately. That's their problem. They'll have to deal with the fall-out from their own lack of understanding and foresight.
You, however, have a primary responsibility to yourself and to your family. Loyalty be damned; that's just a mind game. There's business and then there's friendship -- and business trumps friendship every time -- please see first statement above and exit (to break recursion).
licet differant, aequabitur
Loyalty always matters, as it's an indication of how you value relationships over money and personal convenience. Ask the company making the offer whether they'd be willing to postpone hiring you for a month or so. If that's too long, see if you can start in two weeks but on a part-time basis for two weeks. Also, explain to your current employer what the situation is, and see if you can come to some sort of agreement on how much longer you can stay on without compromising your next career steps.
If you're asking if it "pays" to be loyal, you're no longer talking about loyalty. Loyalty is about sticking with someone no matter how great the value of changing sides is. It's about willing to stick around even if it doesn't "pay". You're not asking about loyalty. You're just wondering if staying on will benefit you more in the long run.
Salary is a nice part of your total compensation. You mentioned lack of commute, too.
Regular hours, vacation time, trustworthiness of management (people are jumping to the assumption that you're a sucker for loyalty because they're used to managers having none of their own but you may have just as much of a "sucker" protecting you and that counts for A LOT), stability of the company, potential for growth, potential to avoid getting canned because of things outside your control, atmosphere within the team, pride in the work you do or could do, medical, pension, vacation time all such things are worth considering too. There's even value in the concept of "a change is as good as a rest." I've said it myself, "This may well be a case of the grass is always greener. But, if it takes me a year to realize that, I still spend a year enjoying what feels like greener grass."
That 45 minute commute you avoid doesn't mean anything if your current company is good about sticking to a 9-6 while the new company buys cheap pizza at 8pm each night to keep people working until midnight. The extra 7k might be nice but are you trading it for being the last one in, first one out, the moment something's rocky in the new company?
Or the reverse might be true... That 7k and the 45 minutes of commute may be the least of what you're gaining as you move to a healthier environment, get more vacation time, better benefits, bonuses that actually materialize, etc.
Either way, look at the whole picture. Weigh up which is the right option for you.
If moving is the right option, politely give your notice without burning any bridges. When asked why you're leaving, explain it that dispassionately. It's a business decision, just like they'd make. You're not trying to sabotage them, you're not upset with them, you've simply got an offer that's too good to pass up.
The other advantage of really considering the whole picture is you know what the new job's really worth to you. It's not just that 7k. The commute's worth x to you as well. The other benefits are worth +/-y. It might be that another 3k and a title change are enough to make you stay, it might be that their matching or even doubling that 7k isn't worth it once you factor everything else in. Knowing where you stand, having factored everything in, beforehand, lets you keep everything purely business and non personal.
The following (not necessarily in the given order)... might help...
1) Doing the same work for more money isn't really that interesting... unless other factors counter this.
2) The bigger company... are they diversified and this is one of many projects they do? Not that this matters... but it is best to make sure that project is fully funded and will keep you employed for at least 2 years.
3) Negotiate a longer notice period for proper and thorough handover. Even if it doesn't really help, it might make you feel better that you did your best. Of course both sides must agree.
4) Do you have a good team to work with in the new company? I have found that the real problem people in your position face is the fact that the team isn't compatible and the work culture doesn't make you feel good.
My 2 cents....
That's the difference between Wall street bankers and the rest of the folks. And that's probably why Wall street bankers take huge paychecks, while the rest of the folks just pass money for "What will my so called friends and colleagues think about me?".
I own and run a record company. I would like someone in this position to talk to me about it. I would make a counter proposal that may make it worth their while to stay. If they decide to move on then I would wish them well. I would ask that person to move on in a way that helps us ease the transition.
My philosophy is that since slavery has been abolished I don't expect loyalty, I have to earn it and work to keep it. Many people move through us to bigger and better things. I always wish them well. Some of them rejoin us years later.
Do what is best for you, at the end of the day the company must do what is best for them.
Talk to your manager about the situation before you have made a decision and give them an opportunity to persuade you to stay.
If you leave let your current manager know that you will do everything you can to help them out.
Don't blow a good long term relationship in the notice period, and try not to let them be stupid either.
You probably meet these people again and it is good to have a good vibe and respect. (and a good reference). Industries are smaller then you think.
The idea of documenting everything is great and will be really appreciated.
It all depends on your company. Have they been loyal to you in the past? What is their behaviour towards other employees? Can you derive from that if they're likely to be loyal to you in the future?
Most companies don't know loyalty. On the first restructuring project, they'll set you free if they don't need you anymore. So why shouldn't you be doing the same?
Some companies, OTOH, will try to keep their employees, even if it means a hit to their baseline. Usually, these are smaller companies run by an owner who is interested in long-term relationships more than quarterly figures.
In general: If you have a better offer, the best thing to do is the honest way: Tell your boss that you have a better offer and are thinking about leaving, and give him the chance to match it (and that doesn't only mean salary!). That way, when they don't and you leave, they can't go whining about it. After all, free market and all, they always love it when it's the source of their profits.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
For me, the time saved in commuting would ace the lot. Money is not important.. Thats your life dribbling away each day. Get it back.
I would say negotiate with both sides in order to stay at the old job long enough to help with the project, if they want you to, bring people up to speed, etc, so see if you can manage a long goodbye. If the new company wants you bad enough they might wait a month or two.
To quote :
/Life does not come with a manual
The biggest mistake that you can make is to believe that you are working for somebody else.
Job security is gone.
The driving force of a career must come from the individual.
Remember: Jobs are owned by the company, you own your career !
- Earl Nightingale
The rest, loyalty to employer, family, pay, job satisfaction and so on is very individual so YMMV
So YOU need to decide how to balance things to may it work to your own satisfaction.
Why should you have any to them?
If the outsourced code was outsourced to a foreign land you already know how loyal the firm is to your fellow countrymen. If it was outsourced outside the local economic region you know what they think of their local economy.
And if you are as key as you think you are - your old firm may outsource work to you. Odds are, you are not as key as you think you are.
Work out what is right for you. Then do it as gently as possible.
And perhaps loyalty is right for you.
A coupla questions... How much loyalty do they feel to you? Really? And - your family and friends - how much more could you give into the people of your life with an hour and a half extra a day? Who is your loyalty to?
Small startups need to share with their devoted employees. If they do not, the two juniors will replace you and you will be redundant.
Now is the time to analyse their intentions. Do so by asking. Diplomatically them what you have.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
Take the job. Look at it this way: If you were hit by a truck and killed during your morning commute, the show would go on.
You have got to consider that fact that if management felt it best for the company to fire you they would not think twice, you would be down the road regardless of friendships or what ever. It is a job, there are other developers that can take your place. You need to look out for you, it's obvious your is not, other wise they would be paying you more!!!
Well not free but the employers pays it 100% in for instance Holland.
Almost everyone gets travel expenses but car users get a fixed amount per mile that is not enough to cover it, public transport users just hand in their tickets for a full refund.
Remember that the entire world is NOT the US and that pre-tax amount of a salary says very little about how much you actually are getting.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Worked as the main system admin for a dot com company. I got an offer that didn't pay as much, but offered far more flexibility, 12 weeks annual vacation, and an hour shorter commute each way.
I knew that my leaving would disrupt things, so instead of the usual 2 weeks notice, I gave them 6 weeks notice. I suggested that they hire someone, and that I would act as mentor, getting him up to speed. Management decided that Unix sysadmins were a fungible commodity, and it could wait until after the hiring freeze. Two days before my 6 weeks was up, I was fired. (!) It had come to the attention of the president of the company that I was openly critical of their procurement policies. (3 signatures on 3 different forms, and two faxes to head office required to purchase a $100 network card.)
They were so afraid that I had left trapdoors that my workstation was wiped clean, and my directory wiped from the rsync servers. (We did backups every 3 hours using rsync.
Two days later I get a phone call about the setup. I told them that it was all in a 40 page document in my home directory/SysAdmin. They asked how to restore from backup tape. I told them that it was in the Admin documentation file, and that many versions of it were on the rsync server. (Once every 3 hours for the previous 24, one per day for the previous 2 weeks, one per week for the previous 2 months, one per month for the previous 6 months. Not as bad as it sounds. If a file hadn't changed, it was a hard link)
Was I interested in coming in and sorting out the mess? No, I had a new job at 3/4 of the pay, and 3 times the freedom.
Half a year later I met my replacement. He'd lasted for 3 months before he'd been laid off. He said he was on the verge of quitting when he'd been laid off. The management style hadn't changed.
Six months later, the company was a research subsidiary of EMC, and had 12 employees.
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
The hard cold fact of the matter is the company you are at now will fire you tomorrow if it's in their interest to do so. That being the case I think you might be confusing loyalty with other things. Loyalty means things like showing up on time, getting your work done well, supporting the company's products over competitors. That sort of thing. Loyalty does not mean you forgo additional pay, better opportunities, more time at home with you friends or family, etc. There may be good reasons to turn down the position you have on offer but loyalty as you are defining it isn't one of them. If it's not a good move for you taking the long view then skip it and stay where you are. But if it is a good move, all else being equal, then the smart move is to let your employer know about the circumstances and use your remaining time at the company to make the transition as smooth as possible. It sounds like you are good at what you do and that losing you will be a headache for your current company but that's their problem. If they haven't factored in some contingency where your services are no longer available it isn't your problem or your fault. When you are weighing a job offer the needs of your current employer count for exactly zero. No matter how you feel about them, it's a business, and it doesn't love you back. When you are no longer needed you will be fired. That's just how it is there is no emotion in any of it. If it's the right move: go, with a clear conscience.
You want to be loyal but you don't want to be hurt long term for it. Tell your employers your situation and give them the option of a long term employment contract. 3-5 years that includes raises, vacations, benefits, bonuses the whole bit. Be open and honest about it. From what you've said there's a very short time frame, that works in your favor. You can even tell the people you're going to work for that you have to give your current employer a chance to make it worth your while to stay because its a critical time for them.
If they say they can't get the contract done in time tell them that's not an option. Be nice, really helpful, but firm.
Have a lawyer available to quickly review the contract and make changes. Work with him to define your limits up front. Let your employer know that you understand this costs money and that you're also paying someone to expedite your response.
Chances are you'll end up working for the other company but you'll have been a stand up guy about it. You current employers will know that they had a chance to keep you and feel there (very real) participation in your choice. They could have given you a contract like that much earlier on their own initiative...
In business, loyalty without solid commitments on paper is a time bomb.
Every rule has more than one consequence.
I used to have these hangups. I got over it long ago. The truth is, even in your company they may promote you to another part of the company tomorrow. Your friends will be in the same situation. The company will do what is in their best interest, which may be to keep you right where you are for the next 10 years or more. Further your career.
Along with that, you have to do your homework. Is this really a good opportunity? Can you expect your position to be there in a year? I.e. will the company be there in a year. Just do your best guess. People at the American company Solyndra had no clue until they got their termination notice. Even the President was there recently, pumped in 1/2 billion USD. Bankupt in less than a month. That may happen where you are. I left a company in the early 1990s and 6 months later everyone else was laid off. They moved the operation from Virginia (USA) to Finland. All but I think one guy was terminated after the product was developed here and supported for years.
You do owe it to yourself to do the research and make a decision. Also, understand that the decision is yours. Don't blame anyone on slashdot, or a relative.
Best of luck
ann landers has this scenario in her database
There is a great book out there called the "Further Up the Organization" that speaks pretty well about this topic. Your employers should be happy, especially if they are friends, that you have another opportunity. If they really want you around, they will match the offer or wish you the best of luck in your new adventure.
I seriously question the motives/attitude of those who have posted that the company has no loyalty to you or that you should not give a damn. The various comments that I have read here seem to be part of many companies overall downward spiral of customer service and quality goods: I want somebody who is going to be part of the organization when I talk to them on the phone, not just somebody who works there (aka, these employees are taking the employers money to give me half-assed answers to the questions I ask or service I am paying for without any desire for accountability). Anyone who does not understand this deserves the position they are in and *hopefully* has a colleague or friend rather than just another bitter bitch partner to guide them out of their selfish misconceptions. Jobs are not a right.
As for the commute, yeah that is quite a bit of time to get back, but I do sometimes miss my commute as it gave me time to read or listen to music or study or whatever. The time saved with shorter commutes always seemed to be lost and unquantifiable.
Best of luck to you.
Word!
If you leave everybody benefits. You gain a better commute, better pay and more opportunity. The old company's two junior programmers will benefit from new responsibility. The company will survive just fine without you believe it or not. If they really need you perhaps they can pay you a small retainer to consult for a few months.
Bottom line, don't ever hold yourself back.
I was in a situation where my "developer" talents were of more value to the company than the "management" role I was filling. They wanted to demote me and substitute a "professional manager" in my place. I was upset and turned in my resignation. They responded by offering me a "consulting" contract that paid twice as much as my previous job and allowed me to work from home.
Sometimes you just have to follow your "gut" instincts and go for it. I wound up richer, with a lot more flexibility, better hours and much less stress. The contract continued for 3 more years and I was much happier and they treated me with greater respect than ever before.
You can't be loyal. Loyalty is a two-way street, and corporations cannot be loyal. It is literally against the law for them to consider anything except profits in making decisions. The second you are percieved as replaceable by a cheaper resource, you'll see how much loyalty they have to you. As far as trying to get a counter-offer, don't. You will always be considered an extrotionist by them, and they will find ways to punish you.
Look, right outside your front door is good for many reasons: 1. You can have more time with your family. - Spend lunch hours with them 2. You can work an extra 30 minutes each day to get ahead and still be home more than you were when commuting. 3. You pay less in gas, so the £7k raise may actually be a £9k raise when you factor in travel costs you won't be paying. Do what is right for you and your family...think long term too.
Renegotiation of your relationships -- professional, personal, or other -- is not a disloyalty. It seems to me your obvious course of action is to go to your boss, or the principal of the company -- whoever is your most relevantly-placed friend in upper management -- and tell them what's going on and ask for their input. It seems very likely from your description that they'll want you to stay, and while they can't reasonably offer to move the company next door to your house they might be able to match the money, or find some other way to help you feel more appreciated where you are. Or, possibly, they'll tell you "We'd really like to keep you, but for that kind of offer maybe you'd better go."
Point is, you don't know what they think unless you ask. (If you really were a mind-reader, I doubt you'd be writing software for a living.)
It can be useful to look at the situation the other way around.
Let's say that the company you work for is worth $10 million. In other words, someone would have to offer the owners $10m to buy it from them. Let's further assume that the 7k increase that the new job offers you is 10% of your current salary.
Here's the question: If a potential buyer offered to pay the owners of your company an additional $1 million (10% more) if they cut some staff, including you, would they take it or would they reject it out of loyalty to you?
If they'd take the $1m and dump you then they have no loyalty to you so you owe no loyalty to them in return.
-deane
You can be loyal but the company will never be loyal to you unless you own part of the company. That is the only way you will get some return. Salary and bonus are just "temporary" benefits and nothing else. The company will benefit but you won't beside just a lil rise. But if there is a down turn, they won't think twice to get rid off you!
my 2cents...
It sounds as if YOU don't quite know what you want. You should really determine what the most important things are to you. Forget the company's perspective for long enough to figure out what you want. /. to help sort out your feelings. Talk to your wife (you'll have to deal with her anyway), Talk to your minister, friends, etc. if you must, but YOU must figure out and decide by balancing what is most important to you (sounds more like "comfortable" to me). Good luck.
All of these postings cannot help you with that. You'll find that knowing what you want and how to get it is the hardest part of life, not just work. Here you must balance what sounds like a really large pay raise and convenience (no commute) vs. how you value the friendships at work. Do you go out to DINNER or spend weekends with some of these people? IF so, you are unlikely to quit doing that (it won't be a loss). ON the other hand, if you only go to lunch and "feel friendly" while at work, they are not really so much friends as business associates.
Finally, you should not ask
Imagine you do resign, then imagine forward six months - who are you meeting up with after work on a Friday? Folks from your current job or someone else? That's who your friends are.
The whole thing is a matter of trust:
If you trust your boss, go explain in such-and-such language what's going on. It may work positively for you, it may not; but you push the decision problem to where it belongs: if they value you, you should have a counter-offer by now. Then, you can pick an option. That's how business is done. What, what about loyalty? You can now test how loyal they are against you.
Avoid business advice from developers.
I'm a developer.