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Ask Slashdot: Preempting Sexual Harassment In the Workplace?
zwei2stein writes "My team of about 10 men (IT guys) is expecting a new colleague: a female one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse. We already have women in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps). How would you deal with this? We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a sexual innuendo jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days). I'd like to figure out a solution that would be effective, not call much attention to itself, and not be quickly abandoned." What has your workplace done to create a good culture on this front? And what hasn't worked?
You need to understand the laws around sexual harassment, which you clearly do not.
I've found at all workplaces a swear jar actually encourages the behavior as people feel they can make up for their actions with money. Don't do it unless everyone in the office enjoys crude talk.
...It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse...
So you work with a bunch of unprofessional animals?
You should *already* have a policy that makes such comments and such a work environment unacceptable.
Let them know that this type of childish behavior is not only unacceptable, but will result in being canned.
End of sentence.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
I am serious. From your post you are already over the line. A lawsuit is just one disgruntled employee away. Fix it and fast.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I work in a small IT department with women (it's about 5 men, 3 women). We don't have any issues with harassment. But, then again, we are all over 21 years of age.
Is your team a bunch of 14YOs?
love is just extroverted narcissism
If you overdo it, people will get paranoid and generally avoid this woman. Also, are you really expecting a large amount of sexual harassment? Where is this business located? I've never gotten grief from coworkers and I'm in the bay area...
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
Get every member of the team to put a picture of the mother on their desks.
May the Maths Be with you!
I have a hard time believing the submitter has a serious question.
Hire mature adults who don't feel the need to marginalize women instead of manchildren?
I work with women everyday. Treat them with respect. Innuendo has no purpose at the workplace and should be treated as no less than harassment. I would recommend taking what policy you have for harassment and applying it to sexual harassment.
is to hire people whom you can trust to behave like adults. Seems like you have no trust in your team if you need to resort to petty punishments like these, which is a bigger problem.
Have whoever is in charge tell them to grow the fuck up and act like goddamn professionals, or they'll be up for disciplinary. Any kind of "jokey" punishment will sound like a slap on the wrist if the staff member feels genuinely insulted or belittled.
If you have so little confidence in your crew, why are they still working for you?
Generally speaking, most professional men above the age of 20 that are managed properly will behave properly. The fact that you feel your crew will not behave properly speaks volumes about your management.
This little set of "exercises" you have planned seems like a witch hunt - something you do when you need a scapegoat. I'm glad I don't work with you.
If your workers are a-holes, chauvinists or otherwise would do this -- it sounds like you need a new crew. There are KAJILLIONS of good-natured, smart, talented, hard-working men and women that are more than capable. If I were in your shoes, I would fire anyone that I would even suspect before the fact that would be have even a remote chance of a problem with this. This is 2012, not 1962.
So the guy named "Tastecicles" is defending sexual harassment. Classy.
And we'll see who laughs at whom.
This reminds me of that one scene in the trailer for the new movie coming out "Pitch Perfect". Some girl is going to try out for this singing group and she introduces herself as "Fat Amy". The other girls snigger at this and ask her "You call yourself Fat Amy?" To this, Fat Amy replies, "Yeah, so bitches like you don't do it behind my back."
"We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a sexual innuendo jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days)"
Any acts which would result in these embarrassments are terminal offenses. Then on top of these, these acts could be considered terminal harassment themselves.
You have serious problems if your polices are already unenforceable.
This sounds like a "5 to 10% tolerance" policy instead of a zero tolerance policy. Maybe I'm just overreacting, but anything that suggests to the guys that sexual harassment is just kind of wrong is missing the point.
Here's an idea: Get some fun, simple ideas for a solution from a group of women. That should get you pointed in the right direction.
--Respectfully written by a dude
HUGE potential!! hurr hurr!!
In space no-one can hear your vuvuzela.
We had none of this garbage. None. I knew I didn't even have to say a word to my guys...why? Because we're all adults and professionals and we know better than to do that shit.
Listen, it's 2012 and almost every single one of your employees has been through some sort of mandatory sexual harassment training at some point in their careers. If you have someone who hasn't (recent college grad with no other work history or an intern or something) pull them aside and handle it.
If this is an issue w/your staff, you should make some other changes, not just the woman you brought on board.
Surely there is already a company policy on sexual harassment. Enforcing this policy is on the shoulders of the offender's manager. The new employee should know that she can complain to her manager, who can pass the complaint to the offender's manager, who will enforce policy, whether it be suspension, termination, etc.
Get the managers on board. If they are cooperative, they can control the situation themselves.
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks...
What the hell?
Are you all twelve or are some of you thirteen yet?
Get off my lawn and take your adolescent misogyny with you!
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
You are opening yourself up to a very, very expensive suit if you don't do more about the issue than mandating "harrassment ties."
We had a very elegant solution.
We relocated the ladies to the kitchen and made sure they were gone by the time the men arrived to pick up their sandwhiches. That way our youthful male interns had to suffer no visual undressing by the old hags.
This does not sound like a good idea to me. It makes it seem like some kind of American college comedy film, where you wink and tsk tsk the naughty fratboys for their inevitable innuendos and they smirk and promise to behave better.
How about just making it clear to any employees that they're expected to act professionally with their colleagues of any race/gender/age/whatever?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
1) Don't hire immature people that can't/won't control themselves appropriately for the situation
2) Don't hire women who can't/won't tolerate working with men, who will sometimes say and do things that are not lady-like.
Our small office is actually almost half female these days. Three of us are techs, two are admins. We have a comfortable relationship with the guys because we're all geeks, and our geekiness trumps any awkwardness from male/female interactions. Light teasing is permitted, but personal relationship discussions are off limits. We generally try to keep all our jokes strictly to IT, nerdliness, and our clients' baffling behavior. We all also wear the same uniform, so the only personal expression the ladies get is earrings and nail polish. (No skirts or heels allowed.) This dress code prevents a lot of harassment, I think. (I know I wouldn't want to have to drag patch cables across the floor in a skirt...)
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
If you have employees I'm really surprised this has never come up until you hired a female. Your company has, or the guys working there have, no contact with females at all? Search on line for HR material and get it out quickly so you don't end up in court, or having to fire 10 guys for hooting at the new coworker. Search for Business Ethics training materials, you will come up with quite a bit.
Let this be a lesson also. If you own a business, there should be policies and statements in place as quickly as possible for all of these types of common legal issues. "No pr0n at work", "don't print pr0n" on your printers, equality in the work place, 0 tolerance for discrimination, etc.. etc... Even a small business with 1-2 people should have this.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
The tie and "swear jar" are fun ideas, but sexual harassment lawsuits are no laughing matter. Careers have been ruined in both directions and companies a lot in both legal expenses as well as reputability. I would suggest telling those "10 guys" to grow up or gtfo.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Hire people who are not looking for an excuse to sue your company and receive a huge settlement check. People make jokes, women just as much as men. If someone cannot handle an awkward situations, tell them to design webpages in their basement.
sudo make me a sandwich
Hire someone because they fit the group and either have technical skills, or are capable of learning them... If they have all the best skills, but don't fit in the group, they're not the right hire. You can train skills, you can't train them to be happy and functional in an existing group.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
I would bet that its the IT "professionals" that are older that are more likely to use the inappropriate remarks as it was more acceptable in their time and not as much with newer generations. That at least has been my experience... younger IT people coming on seem to be more educated about such things being unprofessional.
These people are supposed to be professionals, they should act like one! You are in a professional environment, not the YMCA locker room. I'm glad you are concerned, that shows sensitivity and foresight, if you expect your people to be professionals they should be able to rise to the challenge or find another employer.
This is all you need to know about sexual harassment and how to prevent it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY
Similes are like metaphors
Very often, it is advisable to leave a poisoned work environment. I have heard story after story about people who have been harassed and who have been punished for complaining.
The latest one is an RCMP officer whose sergeant was sexually harassing her. She complained. Nothing. She quit and filed a lawsuit. The government of Canada is putting on a full court press in the media to make her look like a problem employee.
Management doesn't want to deal with this kind of thing. If the harasser is a manager, management almost always sides with the harasser. The victim suffers a lot.
Bottom line: Bail out if you can.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/05/10/bc-rcmp-harassment-galliford-sulz.html
Yes, but this goes both ways. If an employee finds sexually orientated office banter offensive then you have to absolutely snip it in the bud, that's the thing lawsuits are made of. On the other hand, it's important that there's a friendly atmosphere where people aren't treading on egg shells. Write out a policy document, get everybody to sign it, and make sure every single person in the workplace knows who to go to if they have any problems. I've seen plenty of cases where a five minute chat sorted out a misunderstanding or somebody overstepping the line slightly. If people step beyond the boundaries of the law / your policy (whichever is the most restrictive of the two) then make sure you have a clearly defined disciplinary process in place going from an informal warning to immediate dismissal, and stick to it rigorously.
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
Why doesn't your company already have policies in place on this, and why don't you hire employees who know how to act like adults?
What are you trying to imply, AC? Tastecicles is very classy.
P.S. I heard adult film producer's wife has big tits!
sincerely, :D
mister_playboy
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Tell them to not be disrespectful morons, and if they are, they'll be fired. As they would be if they engaged in any other type of behavior that could result in lawsuits against the company (and themselves). You shouldn't have to make a game out of it with rewards and demerits just so that you can hopefully say at the end of the day, "You acted like a reasonable, decent human being towards another person! Hooray!"
If anything, setting up some sort of elaborate monitoring and rewards scheme for 10 male employees in a department just so the 1 female doesn't feel harassed seems to be a horrible way of trying to make the new person feel welcome and a real part of the group. If one of them is going to act like a frakwit, fire him and get someone who won't. There are plenty of people out there still looking for work, and some of them will actually even know how to function in society.
1. Create a policy, in writing, about what is and what is not acceptable behavior in the workplace when it comes to sexual harassment.
2. If somebody violates that policy, reprimand them privately at first, and then publicly if they still don't get it. And keep a record of doing that.
3. If somebody continues to violate the policy, fire them.
If you're not willing to fire people to make a non-harassing culture happen, then you aren't really serious about putting a stop to it. And these are exactly the kind of steps you need to have taken if your company gets sued over your guys' behavior.
Some other things you can do:
1. Lead by example. Treat her like a professional, because that's what she is. Treat your guys the same way if you aren't already, and make it clear that you expect them to act the same way. When you're working, you're working, not hanging out with your buddies at the bar.
2. Nip it in the bud. Don't wait for the second comment, or there will be a third.
3. Make it clear that you're putting a stop to it because if you don't, your boss will (They should back you up on this, if they don't give up, it's a lost cause)
4. Tell 'em (truthfully) you may be able to loosen things up if things go well at first. If your new employee makes it totally clear that she's fine with this sort of thing, then you can let the guys go with it.
IANAL, TINLA, etc.
I am officially gone from
If there's anything obviously inappropriate, or physical, sure, make it punished.
After all if you did that anywhere public, it'd be considered lewd behaviour.
But as long as it's just between team members, who cares about funny jokes:)
The world has become so damn intolerant with ANYTHING that might remotely offend anyone.
Grow a spine people.
There's nothing wrong about difference, we are not EQUAL, and laughing about it as long as it's not specifically targeted and/or with associated ill intents. Equality is about realizing our differences.
Doing racist jokes is okay if you do them against every race for laughs!
Same with sexist jokes, mock guys, mock girls, who cares as long as it's not clearly aggressive.
Oh wait... USA courts...
the place where brains are removed and replaced by lawyercats references...
And talk to a lawyer specializing in employment law regarding remedies and responses to inappropriate actions. Messing with someone's vacation days may be illegal. You don't want your remedies creating more opportunities to get sued.
Your "simple, fun ways" are going to get you into hot water. By doing that, you're basically encouraging such behavior by turning something from inappropriate behavior to behavior that's okay as long as you're willing to wear a funny tie.
You talk about your team, so I assume you're in a larger organization. That organization most likely has some HR representation, so I suggest you talk to them about what the baseline rules and laws are. I'm surprised your company hasn't already had some sort of mandatory training (training which I tend to think is just relaying common sense, but based on your write up, I'm not sure in your team's case).
For the grey areas not covered by those rules, why don't you go discuss with the other women you mention to learn their experiences? Double entendres and the like are not necessarily harassment/hostile work environment, but it depends on how they're played. If they're all being directed at the female team member, then yeah, you're probably asking for trouble.
We actually have a swear jar at my IT job currently. Swearing, sexual innuendo, also missing any punches on your timesheet result in a $0.25 fine per offense. At the end of the year the money is doubled by the VP and we buy presents for the Angel Tree at Christmas. Last year's was around $200 before the doubling by the VP. This year it's looking quite a bit lower since everyone was sick of getting harassed to put in another quarter.
In Is There Anything Good About Men?, Roy F. Baumeister writes
You are proposing frat boy solutions to a frat boy problem.
It's easy: dont turn it into a frat boy game. Just say once, seriously, before the new employee starts: "I noticed the innuendo around here. It's not funny. Do it once, get a warning. Do it twice, get fired."
And then actually do that.
Sexual harassment isn't funny. Of course the frat boys will say it's just a little fun, no harm intended. Thats the problem.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Fired them. (No tolerance policy.)
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
It's called "not being a sexist wanker".
It's similar to the concept of "not being a racist tosser".
And you should fire immediately anybody that says "it's just banter".
You're right Tastecicles you ball loving sex-gimp. As you enjoy the taste of hairy man plums in your mouth, I am sure a mature human being yourself is well able to mentally handle the abuses of the many men who employ your services each day, as well as the laughter of the countless women who giggle in unison at the absurdity of your unmanly existence.
Now, read out that comment to yourself eight times a day for next six weeks and then come back to us about "crying fucking mental rape".
May the Maths Be with you!
Start with posters in the coffee room"
"At , respect means having an environment free of harassment or discrimination."
That set's the expectation.
Also, send around a policy statement that mentions that dismissal and possible legal action are the consequences of harassing behavior.
Doesn't your state have laws about this, that could be mentioned in the policy?
Of course, you have to mean it. If not, that's your issue, not your employees'.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
There's your problem. Fix your team's mindset, not how to punish infractions that one assumes "must" happen.
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
I know what you could try.
You could try growing up, and if that doesn't work, fire someone over it.
"Haha, Bob is sexually herassing Martha (again!), time for the tie of shame! Hahahaha..."
"Time for a lawsuit..."
You say there are already women in the workplace who know how to handle this behavior.
Have the new woman consult with these women.
Then, go tell the men what exactly (but anonymously) these women thought about the behavior.
I'm sure the term "third grade behavior" will come up somewhere.
Futurist Traditionalism
A deliberately unfunny one?
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
Hostile Work Environment:
"Hostile work environment harassment occurs when unwelcome comments or conduct based on sex, race or other legally protected characteristics unreasonably interferes with an employee’s work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive work environment. Anyone in the workplace might commit this type of harassment – a management official, co-worker, or non-employee, such as a contractor, vendor or guest. The victim can be anyone affected by the conduct, not just the individual at whom the offensive conduct is directed.
Examples of actions that may create sexual hostile environment harassment include:
- Leering, i.e., staring in a sexually suggestive manner
- Making offensive remarks about looks, clothing, body parts
- Touching in a way that may make an employee feel uncomfortable, such as patting, pinching or intentional brushing against another’s body
- Telling sexual or lewd jokes, hanging sexual posters, making sexual gestures, etc.
- Sending, forwarding or soliciting sexually suggestive letters, notes, emails, or images"
Somewhere, a labor law attorney is locking and loading his briefcase... :-)
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
A female colleague just joined our team a few months back (previously all male). Know what we did to prepare? Nothing. Because we are all adults and knowwhat's appropriate in the workplace. The innuendo didn't exist before she joined and it sure as hell didn't start after.
You want to prevent it? Don't fucking do it, and don't accept it when anyone else does. Certainly don't treat it like a game or accept that it is inevitable.
Companies like yours are the ones that give the media ammunition when they want to dig up crap about gender discrimination in the IT/IS world.
tl;dr -you're all big boys now and should damn well know what's acceptable behavior.
> "It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos "
If that's the kind of workplace you're fostering, I wouldn't want to work there. You recruit the best talent by having a comfortable environment for everyone. Not a prudish one, but a professional one. Inappropriate remarks, double entendres, and innuendoes have a term- sexual harassment. It should be dealt with with discipline, up to and including termination, depending on the offense. Otherwise, prepare for a multi-million-dollar lawsuit that will prevail in any court system.
If you foster an environment where you're not welcoming to visible minorities (women), I'd hate to think what it'd be like to be an invisible minority (different sexual orientation, religion, etc.).
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
As a male, I would not want to work with those people. Your company has a personnel problem well beyond what you think it is.
I guess my advice is to avoid litigious people at all costs. You can sue for anything these days. You can't tell a joke, give a high five or even kiss your wife on the cheek (someone i worked with actually invoked sexual harassment for this) without pissing someone off. I say: let these people work elsewhere. I like dropping the f-bomb and being sexist & crude, as do my peers. We band together in a mutual agreement not to spoil the freedom for everyone.
let your new female coworker set the tone. If she does not mind the jokes (or she starts the jokes herself) then you don't have to worry about it unless somebody gets drunk and goes out into left field.
but anywho i would say that you need to put out word that the first GUY to crack a joke gets to dress up as a French Maid for the day (or as a Chipendale Dancer depending on what She wants).
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How about dismissal?
One firing goes a long way in getting attention.
IAAL, and I'm imagining the deposition in a hypothetical (inevitable?) sexual harassment suit. Q: Were you, as a supervisor, aware of any sexual harassment at the workplace? A: No. Q: Did you have a "sexual harassment jar"? A: Yes. Q: And what was the purpose of the sexual harassment jar? A: To curb employee sexual harassment. Every time someone said something that could be sexual or suggestive, they'd have to put a dollar in the jar. Q: And how much money was eventually contributed to the jar? A: The last time I cleaned it out, it had $562. Q: So let me ask you again, were you aware of any sexual harassment at the workplace?
I work for a company where the majority of IT pros are women, including the director. Needless to say we don't have a problem with sexual harassment since the ratio of women to men is something like 4:1. We're also fully matured adults who come to work to make a living, not to play mind games with people who are extremely intelligent and not about to take any foolishness from some horny male who can't think because he's got his dick in hand most of the time.
You're headed for a world of legal grief if you clowns don't grow up and can the Mad Men-style harassment.
The pursuit of absolute tolerance leads to the most rigorous and ludicrous intolerance. - REX MURPHY
the old commercials made it seem like sexual harassment was something like 'your boss boss wants you to dress skimpy for work or your fired', now jokes are over the line? i swear you give these bitches an inch...
Fire employees who harass other employees. If you want to be slack about it then let them know the policy before they throw their job away. Harassment is unacc-fucking-eptable, end of story. Feel free to ignore this, however, and receive a massive law suit.
If I were the manager of your department I would gather everyone together in a room and close the door. I would let the team know that we will be having a new team member joining us on Monday and that it's a female. I would carefully explain the concept of sexual harassment to them and the serious implications that it carries. Then I would remind them that this is not some fucking college frat house, this is a place of work. There will be zero, and I mean zero, tolerance for harassment of any kind - sexual or otherwise. If I find out about it I will have no choice but to report it to HR - otherwise MY ass is on the line for not reporting it. The first offense will get you a written warning. Second offense, your ass is out the door. This isn't baseball, you don't get three strikes in this game. Anyone that doesn't feel that they can abide by those rules are free to tender their resignation effective immediately. This is serious shit - do NOT fuck with me on this. Any questions? Good :-)
I sincerely hope you neither have, nor ever will have, a daughter.
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Where is this? I see a lot of responses that seem to assume this is in the U.S. or another country where sexual harrassment is outlawed. Read above for many good points about this.
This is ridiculous, 'maturity' isn't about avoiding off-the-cuff remarks that will sometimes be unfiltered and immature. Research for example has shown that jazz musicians produce the work they do by disabling their inhibitory system. Doing this around co-works at the right times can build a bond deeper then $'s can. For those who are offended, grow up, deal with it, people can be very different, cultures and sub-cliques have different values and expectations. This push for multiculturalism is more about sterilizing culture and humans. I am male, and have had remarks that would certainly be considered sexual harassment directed at me by women and gay men in my over 10 years of work and honestly, even if it came out all wrong due to them being nervous or whatever, it was still a compliment, except for in the cases where it wasn't ;) Not everyone values the same things, and even for an individual what they value can change for bursts of time due to emotions, hormones, etc... Just accept that people aren't cogs and we can stop lawyering up every time we don't understand someone else.
...It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse...
So you work with a bunch of unprofessional animals?
You should *already* have a policy that makes such comments and such a work environment unacceptable.
Let them know that this type of childish behavior is not only unacceptable, but will result in being canned.
End of sentence.
This man's coworkers probably just think they're having good clean fun and that they're "keeping it real" in the face of what they feel to be phony soul-tarnishing political correctness. However, it's hard to really walk in another's shoes sometimes. Points of view are intellectually challenging. (Which is why scientists use the mirror test as a marker of sentience.)
One person's idea of "good clean fun" isn't necessarily the same as another person's. It sounds like there's a group there who has been enjoying the camaraderie and other benefits of a tight-knit "workplace culture." of their own. As the workforce at your company gets larger, the likelihood of everyone new liking all aspects of the original group's "culture" are going to diminish. So either you're going to have to impose the same "culture" on all new employees or this group "culture" is going to have to change.
Again, it's a point of view thing, so it's going to be very hard to convey what it truly means to be on the other side of their "ribbing." A good professional trainer might be in order. (But a bad trainer is likely to only make things worse.) Change also needs to be backed up by authority. It's probably only going to work at all smoothly with buy-in from the social leaders of that group.
It's what normal, mature human beings do - they handle the situation themselves instead of crying fucking mental rape.
I beg to differ.
In my team I have 12 different nationalities with 12 different cultures. As of now, we have two females in our team. On our office floor we have many more females, and many, many more nationalities with as many different cultures. This is important, because what's seen as relatively normal in one culture, can be seen as sexual harassment in the other. For example, what person A means as a compliment, can be received by person B as harassment. ("wow, your behind looks great in that dress": compliment or harassment?)
Obviously, the "visiting" culture should adhere to the local one, but it does not hurt to train the employees in doing so. At my last two employers (two different countries, including California*), I have received "respectful workplace training", aimed at eliminating sexual harassment and discrimination. For me, this has been very useful, not because I'm a gorilla-type male chauvinist pig, but because it was an eye-opener to learn about the sensitivities that vary between cultures and countries.
A real world example: most of us will remember Jeff Dunham's "Silence I kill you". I was mimicking this play in the office a couple of years ago. This was outside of the U.S., but I had American colleagues present. One of them had not seen the show, and was offended. This also happened to be a female, and by the end of the afternoon, my manager and the local HR were involved, and I had to talk to a crying co-worker who was really, really offended. And I had no clue why.
Moral of the story: what user1 perceives as "It's what normal, mature human beings do" is offensive to user2. At work, everyone should feel save and respected, including that pretty girl who just got hired because of her two special talents (in your opinion, of course).
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
Really...why should a group/team that has been working for ages, all of a sudden have to stop and change and stifle themselves just because a woman is joining the group?
Unfortunately, these days...legal reasons are the bottom line, which is sad. I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job. Even in a bunch of just guys....individual guys get razzed and all, that's just normal. And yet...no one get sued, and work gets done...etc.
If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If women can't handle being hit on and joked about by men then they shouldn't be in the workplace to begin with.
Wow. Just wow.
This isn't the local downtown meatmarket nightclub we're talking about. It's a professional working environment. You simply don't have one group of employees targeting another group of employees just because of their sex (or colour, beliefs, etc).
Some people here seem to be living in the 1950s. Amazing.
Sexual harassment won't be reported. It will however be graded.
How about anyone who acts inappropriately gets fired, and potentially charged with sexual harassment. Seriously, what company do you work for so I can avoid your products and services like the plague, lest I be sued by association?
In my old team we had things get wildly out of hand and HRLegal got involved. The entire team suffered because of a manager who didn't just step up and handle it like a problem between adults.
In my current team I am at/near the top of the social pecking order and have a very good reputation for looking out for juniors in the lab (going to bat w/ management for them but not telling who I'm batting for, etc.) and a good reputation with management for telling things as they are and having people trust me. This (amazingly to me) has gotten me some measure of respect from both sides, even when things get heated (we had a reorg a while back that turned very sour).
We had a repeat incident that was very nearly the same as what happened in my old group, but I told my manager what was happening, and asked him to give me a shot at handling it. I pulled the two into a conference room (based on the authority of the managers e-mail to them both) and dressed them both down, her for wearing clothes that are against the dress code and sure to attract attention, and him for utterly failing to be a gentleman that when a girl wears enticing clothes and lets you know it isn't you she wants it's time to back off. I reminded both of them that they are adults and to act it, and that neither was guiltless in the whole mess. Problem solved. Year and a half later, still no issues; she's dressed at least a little closer to the dress code, and he's polite, but non pursuing to her.
I don't think informal warning straight to dismissal is the right policy, there should be two more steps in between: formal warning && second warning + suspension.
Just realized I mis-parsed that part of your post, but there's the two steps I'd put there.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
If you're afraid you're hiring someone who will end up suing you, might as well let them do it for not getting hired in the first place.
Seriously, never hire anyone who doesn't have a sense of humor and common sense. Those are valuable job skills, for a man or a woman.
While it's illegal to discriminate against someone for their sex, it isn't illegal to find out if they are intollerant trouble makers out to make a quick buck via the courts.
bring it on, sailor - I'll bet you love a bear hole round your tool
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
The ones who can't behave themselves have to go and be replaced by people with enough civility to behave like a normal human being.
Very simple, and will get the organization in line very quickly.
Formal training is vital legally but doesn't always reach people.
Making an example of someone is something you should be ready to do. Sounds like you'll need to. Do it early.
Brainstorming about preventive measures to *supplement* your policy: start memes like "nerds don't bully nerds" or "would you say that to your sister?". Hire an outspoken victim that nerds can identify with to talk (not lecture) about what the impact is.
I would stay away from cute ideas like wearing silly ties. People will interpret this as childish and arbitrary corporate policy. Also if someone harasses another person, a public display keeps the story alive and further contributes to the victim's embarrassment. You want to set the expectations of culture when new people are hired. Both that bad behavior will not be tolerated and that there is a safe communication channel for complaints to be made. The second point can't be convincing if you don't have an HR staff member that stays outside of the workings and politics of the company. The other part of the battle is the ongoing culture of the company that happens amongst employees. One person that is willing to complain and object fearlessly will positively make a difference. And I mean informally, person-to-person, e.g. "You just called her a bitch, and I'm not cool with it." If you have 2 or 3 people like this in a group of a hundred, that's enough to win the culture. People will leave their bad jokes and sexy wall calendars at home.
Don't do anything inappropriate and you will not need a solution
And what should have been the proper response to this?
Tell the crying woman, after an explanation (maybe she didn't 'get it' for some reason)...after a point, to get over it. It is a fucking joke.
It isn't your fault someone misunderstands things or has such a thin skin and likely will cry if too many flies are swatted on the window sill.
In the case you laid out...there was no harassment....they need to get over it, and quit wasting company time crying over nothing...and get some work done.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Tell your current male employees not to be douchebags or they'll be fired. Voila: 10-second sensitivity training.
We already have women in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps).
I'm sorry, but "preempting" implies that it's not happening already. You obviously already have an ongoing harassment problem in a culture of permissiveness, the classic "hostile work environment." Any of these women who are "handling it" (which, should be noted, is not their fucking job) can likely put your company in a world of legal hurt at any time.
Walk away from your computer and go talk to HR and legal right now, and not necessarily in that order. Also, have a long, detailed letter of resignation handy. There's nothing anybody here can do for you beyond point and laugh.
"My team of about 10 white men (white IT guys) is expecting a new colleague: a black one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, racist jokes and insults with huge potential of getting worse. We already have blacks in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps). How would you deal with this? We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a racist-remark jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days). I'd like to figure out a solution that would be effective, not call much attention to itself, and not be quickly abandoned."
This kind of work environment is completely unacceptable in the 21st century.
Seriously. Grow. Up.
If you have not formalized both, do it. Right now. You're about 20 years too late, but better late than never. Without those things in place, the organization is much more exposed when the troglodyte dumb-ass opens his mouth around a female employee. If you can say, "Yes, we have a policy against that and all employees are aware of it and have received appropriate education..." you are in a much better legal position. And no, just "having a talk with the guys" is not "appropriate education". Hire a pro.
You are about to get owned. ...With a verifiable precedent like innuendo jars and silly ties... Say goodbye to your business. You are a lawyers walking wet dream. All it will take is the accusation, won't have to be verifiable at all. How about instead of 'embarrassing' ties, it's an instant fire with no possibility of rehire?
Never hire women.
For heavens sake GROW UP!
Up the ante. Hire a gay guy who will shamelessly bring up tasteless topics that the guys there don't want to hear about. And then bring in healthy snacks for the break room LIKE SAY BANANAS.
Guess who will learn REALLY quickly how awful it must be to work in an environment where you just want people to shut up!
Note: many of us gay guys in IT are shy nerds, so you might need to bring in someone from, say, Marketing to achieve all the "teaching moments" you'd need to change a culture.
You should really quit and find a company staffed with adults.
The main problem I see is the general attitude. Sexual harassment should not be treated as a joke. There are legal liabilities here. Treat any new member with respect and everyone will be fine. No need to make this some sort of game.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
And what hasn't worked?
Going out of our way to treat them differently.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
You are already harassing the women on your team. And something about the new hire is "special," so you think she can't "cut" the crap you boys are already dishing out. The job market is tight, and you idiots are already living on borrowed time. I'd grow up fast and learn to act like a professional and not a bunch of adolescent fools. I'm surprised HR/management hasn't already caught on to your antics and cracked the whip on your silly asses. The women shouldn't have to be slapping you down. Do you really think that they enjoy expending the extra energy it takes to fend off and/or cope with your crap?
Sexual harassment isn't funny
Huh huh huh, he said "sexual".
Fire them and hire people who aren't immature, offensive, middle schoolers in adult clothing. If you think I'm kidding, my company just fired someone approx 2 hours ago for that reason.
What would you do if it was your daughter joining the group. Everyone woman is someone's daughter.
Which one sounds more like childish whining: Not wanting to have people talk shit at you all day? Or not wanting to have to shut your mouth and stop talking shit?
When someone wants you to stop talking in the theater, is it they who are the jerk because they can't just deal with it?
People: if you can't stop yourself from saying sexually harassing things, you've got some serious problems. If you whine that you are somehow being oppressed because you can't say stupid shit to whoever you want, you're a whiney baby.
Most of us are much better than this, of course, but there's always a few idiots in these discussions that still don't get it. Thanks, Tastecicles, for bringing the stupid.
When she comes in the door, slap her on the ass, call her sexy, and ask her if she gives free handjobs. You will be sued the next day for sexual harassment, fired from your job, and they will get a new manager in there who understands letting this happen in the workplace is not tolerated, and you were the example.
if you guys are really that loaded and immature then get the stuff out of your system with a professional. There's really no excuse whatsoever to behave like a teenage douchebag around females unless your team is made up of 18-20 year olds.
grow up!
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
And, of course, if they hired a guy in a wheelchair, there'd be lots of jokes about "gimps" and "short people", because that's just how guys are.
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
It is pretty easy.
1. Warning. Tell them that such action is unprofessional.
2. Fire the offenders. If they are not going to act professional at work, then fire him. He can be replaced, no matter how smart he thinks he is.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
So, what's life like back there in 1974? I gotta warn you though, in the next few years, you're going to see the emergence of the "sexual harassment lawsuit." Your employer will clamp down pretty hard on your "guys being guys" jokes, because if they don't, there's a good chance they'll be sued into oblivion.
what user1 perceives as "It's what normal, mature human beings do" is offensive to user2.
And it ends there. So you're offended by the word "the"? Don't expect me to stop using it to make you happy.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
I have an idea, grow some balls. How about you stop trying to treat her differently and treat her like a peer. If she has problems with that, she needs to be fired. Period. If a women can't handle herself with polite joking (I don't mean crude bullshit and harassment), then there is no place for her in the workplace. Fire her ass and move on.
If on the other hand, you can't treat her as an equal peer, leave or get fired yourself, and move on.
Problem solved
It's what normal, mature human beings do - they handle the situation themselves instead of crying fucking mental rape.
What if there's a complete idiot doing it, somebody who just doesn't know when to stop?
At some point the rest of the team has to step in and say "enough". It's what normal, mature human beings do.
Chimps, too, BTW. When one chimp in a group crosses the line with his bullying the others often stand up for the victim.
No sig today...
there's a good chance they'll be sued into oblivion.
They're quite lawsuit-happy. US schools apparently have that same problem with parents, so they implement zero-tolerance policies and attempt to turn everyone into an emotionless robot.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
We had none of this garbage. None. I knew I didn't even have to say a word to my guys...why? Because we're all adults and professionals and we know better than to do that shit.
Listen, it's 2012 and almost every single one of your employees has been through some sort of mandatory sexual harassment training at some point in their careers. If you have someone who hasn't (recent college grad with no other work history or an intern or something) pull them aside and handle it.
If this is an issue w/your staff, you should make some other changes, not just the woman you brought on board.
The use of the term shit is offensive. Oh, and if you raise your voice, that's threatening. And don't forget that your perfume is offensive. Now everyone get in their cube, don't talk to a fellow employee without an HR person and corporate lawyer present. Have a wonderfully happy day!
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
For future reference, did you ever figure out why your coworker was offended?
Says the guy who's obviously never been in the minority position in an uncomfortable environment.
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
And note that in the OP's case, it may very well be that the woman that joins the group is perfectly comfortable in that environment, but that's a decision she gets to make, like it or not. Where I work now, there are women who can dish it out just as well as the guys (and seem to enjoy doing so), but we're all aware of what others are comfortable with. It's a natural part of simply being respectful.
As so many others have already pointed out, doing anything that you've suggested is begging to be on the losing end of a lawsuit. Or a media circus. Or both.
You know how real companies deal with this? Anyone complains, you lose your job. It's that simple.
At my company we use violators of company policy as test subjects.
Who exactly are your "peers"?
While certainly firing an otherwise competent professional for dropping a curse word is extreme, being "sexist and crude" in the workplace is simply out of line if somebody really wants to consider themselves a professional.
How, precisely, does one avoid "litigious" people? Only the terminally stupid are going to mention anything of that nature during the job interview, and you can't very well ask.
At my workplace, a very serious firm you most certainly have heard of, I hold hands and kiss my wife all the time. It hasn't been a problem. But if I were to start making sexist and crude jokes about my female coworkers, you'd bet I'd be on my ass before the week was out.
Actually, any manager that is allowing this kind of behavior to occur is asking for trouble, no matter what the makeup of the group is. Many years ago I worked for a smallish all-male consulting company that allowed a LOT of sexually unprofessional behavior to occur. We're talking "Playboys in the magazine rack in the lunchroom" kind of unprofessional behavior. Several of us weren't thrilled about it, but there really wasn't a lot of complaining.
One of the male software engineers left the company after about a year. Several weeks later, the company was hit by a lawsuit. Turned out that he was gay (nobody had ANY clue) and found the workplace to be sexually hostile. The guy walked away with a healthy settlement, both managers were fired, two other employees were fired along with them, and the work atmosphere went down the tubes.
Sexual discrimination suits don't require there to be a gender difference, and even an employee who seems OK with sexualized behavior can later sue over it if they change their mind (or simply want to make a few bucks). Only a complete moron would allow this kind of behavior in their company.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job.
Actually, all adults should be able to do their job without having to have a bit of thick skin concerning actions from their coworkers.
My employer requires all new employers to take an online training course of sorts. It is a relatively short and simple system that explains various types of sexual harassment and gives multiple examples of what is, is not, and what could be considered sexual harassment. It also explains things determined by the context of the situation and the type relationship the people have. This helps cover the 'grey areas'. Then the employees have to take a fairly short multiple-choice online quiz, on which they must score at least 90%. After this, the employee prints out the 'certificate' that shows their score on the test. The manager signs and dates the paper and puts it in the employee's records, so they have proof they were taught what is appropriate.
If the employee then gets accused of sexual harassment, it is investigated to ensure it is a valid claim. If it is valid, the employee with either have an official reprimand put in his record (and their employment is put on probation) or the employee will just be fired, depending on the severity and nature of the harassment. The latter is much more likely because sexual harassment is not tolerated... but grey areas do sometimes exist when it comes to sexual harassment.
If your company has sexual harassment taking place, then have the managers put an end to it. Make sure that all employees understand what is considered to be sexual harassment and come up with some strict (but fair) guidelines for the handling of sexual harassment accusations. Make sure each employee understands the consequences of sexual harassment and make sure the consequences are high (eg: getting fired without chance of being re-hired in the future). Sexual harassment should not be allowed in any office or workplace. If it happens as abundantly as your question implies, then management is doing something wrong.
Yes, but this goes both ways. If an employee finds sexually orientated office banter offensive then you have to absolutely snip(sic) it in the bud
OTOH having meetings to establish a policy before anything actually happens is a bit of an insult to the people already working there. You're basically saying you think they're idiots.
Give them a chance ... maybe nothing will happen.
If something happens, act immediately to nip it in the bud.
No sig today...
Man, seriously peeps, wtf.
So a woman is coming to work with you. Ya?
Pretend it's your fucking mom or sister if you can't handle it.
Seriously, I don't even understand the mentality of most of you if this is even remotely a problem.
Get a fucking life.
Be seeing you...
...hiring adults. The behavior you're worried about sounds like the kind of crap you'd get from high school kids or college freshman.
"False hope is why we'll never run out of natural resources!" - Lewis Black
Frankly, it astonishes me that this is even a question in this day and age, and that an idea of a "sexual harassment jar" is even being floated. Stiff penalties like no vacations days? Are you kidding? You do realize that SOP has people *terminated* from their jobs for sexual harassment, right?
I've never been sexually harassed but I worked in an office in Japan, where the laws are much more lax and sexual harassment is far more prevalent. There were many instances of sexual harassment and the effect it had on a couple of coworkers was devastating and terrible to watch, and was one of the main reasons I left that workplace very quickly. People have already given you the legal reasons for taking this stuff seriously; you should consider the moral reasons as well.
Unfortunately, these days...legal reasons are the bottom line, which is sad. I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job. Even in a bunch of just guys....individual guys get razzed and all, that's just normal. And yet...no one get sued, and work gets done...etc.
Getting razzed is fine. Having comments made about your sexuality when they haven't been invited is absolutely unacceptable. Besides gender issues, many people prefer to keep their sexuality private. I can think of hundreds of reasons ranging from closeted non-standard sexual orientations to religious conviction, not to mention the fact that some people are there to do a job, not to be propositioned or pick up a hookup for the night.
Basically, I prefer to keep my sexuality in the bedroom (so to speak), and I demand that everybody stay out of my bedroom unless invited, and I have only invited one person. I don't think that this privacy is too much to ask, and I do think that invading it in this way is intolerably disrespectful.
And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
I don't know what culture you are a part of that tolerates this, but I am a married man, and no, I would not appreciate double entendre statements addressed to me. I do take my wedding vows seriously as they are the foundation of my children's whole world and existence, and I would never joke or permit someone to joke about the idea of me being sexual with someone besides my wife. Maybe that is all just a joke to you. But in my workplace, men don't talk to women like that, women don't talk to men like that. And we are in "good old boy" east Texas, yet somehow we manage to behave like grownups who are here to do a job, not to get laid.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
You do realize sexual harassment, of *any* type (innuendos, double entendres definitely included) is illegal and can subject *you* as a manager, and your company to lawsuits and fines?
As constructive criticism, I would suggest that you immediately call a meeting with your team and make it crystal clear what constitutes harassment and what the penalties are for the first occurrence. If you don't know, you'd better find out, and fast. As others have said, we're not in the 70s any more and if your team can't act like adult professionals, they need to look elsewhere for work.
Looking through the comments posted so far, this appears to be as close as Slashdot gets to unanimous agreement. The conclusion? The OP is a complete, utter, blithering idiot, well on his way to getting himself and his entire team fired and his company sued for every penny that can be wrung out of them.
OP: Unless you hit yourself repeatedly on the head with a spiked clue-by-four, and then threaten to do the same to the collection of frat boys you have apparently been saddled with, start laying in funds for an extended period of unemployment, and advise your co-workers to do the same.
I notice a lot of US centric answers, including references to "sexual harassment training". The submitter's profile page indicates he's located in the Czech Republic.
As another European, I can say that the only time I've heard of "sexual harassment training" (interesting name, btw - does it train you to be better at it?) is in slashdot posts, by Americans, on the topic. While sexual harassment laws exist here, they obviously don't work the same way, or are enforced with the same rigour on this side of the pond.
Now, I do agree with the general advice, which is essentially grow the fuck up, but assuming American law and corporate procedures when giving advice is probably not very helpful.
May we live long and die out
Every company I've worked at has provided it. Usually as a recurring thing too. Often at somepoint during new hire orientation, and then once every year afterwards. Your HR dept should be able to set this up for you (even if you're a small company and have HR outsourced to one of those HR outsourcing firms). Your company, as well as you personally, can be sued and end up losing a lot of money over this.
Here's a small gist of the training: Harassment is defined by the victim. It doesn't matter if you or your co-workers don't consider it harassment, if the victim does, then it is harassment. There is a ton of legal leeway given to victim. This is not a subject to take lightly. Simply looking at a person the wrong way could be considered harassment. Laughing at a joke, even if it is not at his/her expense, and even if that person laughs as well, could be considered harassment.
Get your team/company the training.
Normal, mature human beings don't create the situation in the first place.
Let's discuss an example from one of my previous workplaces. A security guard blocked a woman's car in in the parking lot and started saying over and over "Would your husband mind?". The company was a military contractor and the guard had a gun on his hip. Perhaps you have some ideas in mind about how she should have handled the situation herself? Calling the police isn't handling it herself.
First of all, nix the idea of a sexual innuendo jar. With the jar, you have a cheap way to pay for your sins. Which is more costly: guilt and/or fear that maybe you've gone to far this time, or a buck? I'd certainly pay a dollar for freedom from guilt over my past sins. This was covered in the Freakonomics blog: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/books/chapters/0515-1st-levitt.html.
Secondly, you simply being the conscientious manager is a good step--keep it up. If you set the tone ahead of time that this won't be tolerated, and maintain that discipline over the first few weeks/months, then most of the time, you will have smooth sailing. Keep in mind that this should be enforced even when the female co-worker is not present. If there are no women around, make all the locker room jokes you want, but not about HER. Leave co-workers out of it. If you respect her when she's there, you'll respect her when she's not there. That's how you treat your sister, and that distinction is what will eventually make her "one of us" rather than "fresh meat."
Many women who work in a male-dominated environment have thick skin and a, shall we say, robust sense of humor. It's a defense mechanism/survival tactic. However, DO NOT assume this is the case with a woman you don't know, and don't jump to conclusions based on her appearance, or whether she laughs at one dirty joke. Let her lead the way.
You will have incidents here and there, but your job it to provide a positive work environment, where ALL of you employees feel comfortable--male and female.
let your new female coworker set the tone. If she does not mind the jokes (or she starts the jokes herself) then you don't have to worry about it unless somebody gets drunk and goes out into left field.
Wrong. Even if she permits it for a time she can change her mind at any time. "But she was fine with me being a crude jackass before" is not a defense that will stand up in any court of law. You and the company are on very thin legal ice if you start permitting that sort of behavior. The difference between flirting/joking and harassment is essentially whether the other person likes it. If they don't, it's harassment. Since you have no way of knowing in advance whether your actions will be received well, the appropriate course of action is to assume they will not and behave accordingly. Adults know this and don't make crude jokes at the expense of others.
If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Well, imagine this if you would: Pretend that instead of going into a heavily male profession like IT, you'd gone into a heavily female profession, nursing. You go out, get a job, move to a new town, you show up for your first day of work and what you hear all day from other nurses is comments not about nursing but about the apparant size of your dick and your presumed sex life or lack thereof. And your ugly hag of a boss is deciding whether you'll be promoted or not based on how nicely you smile when she looks you up and down with clear sexual intent (or in more extreme cases whether you agree to sleep with her).
Think about how you'd really truly react in that kind of scenario, and you might understand the problem.
I am officially gone from
I was wondering the same thing. She sounds half crazy.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
You must read this article. What I Learned At Dartmouth. It's way too long, but I'll quote the beginning. It is impossible to comment intelligently on this article without reading this link to the full. Rebut it, if you can.
"One of the freshmenâ"or âoefirst yearsâ, as they were beginning to be knownâ"was accused by another first year of sexual assault and harassment. In the hot-house political environment at the timeâ"product of the Thomas/Hill hearings, which revolved around workplace sexual harassmentâ"these were serious allegations."
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Not in my experience...
I've worked in many different workplaces. Some of them range from downright awful (comments that made *me* uncomfortable to just be hearing them), to respectful face-to-face but not so much in private.
It's not just the face-to-face contact, most people can at least manage that. It's the little side conversations that eventually get overheard by the wrong person at the wrong time. In many jobs I've overheard colleagues having conversations that - while between the two of them - were still very NSFW. Knowing your audience is important. Knowing your environment is equally important.
Lay it down flat. It's not cool to comment about Alice's bodily parts and/or personal-life to her face, nor to your friend/co-worker Bob, nor anywhere in the workplace. Violating this is a liability to the company, will go to HR, and may eventually lead to dismissal.
Other than all the "don't play games, talk to a lawyer" bits of advice, this is the best thing in the thread.
Just because you *think* some women are laughing along. Some might be because they're too afraid to stand up. Some might genuinely think it's funny, then decide that they're tired of working for you and figure they can leave with a nice lawsuit-based severance package. I friend of mine's wife flat out said she would've sued for SH on the way out the door if she thought her old company had any money. And, this was after years of going along with it all.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
How about simply laying down the law. Dressing it in funny stuff cheapens the message.
I'm the only guy in an office of seven women. They're just as bad as when I was a tech for Jeep working with all guys.
Your point is well founded, but I find it a bit disturbing. The reason you shouldn't let this happen should not be the fear of a lawsuit, but the welfare of your employees. They are human beings, and if you drive them all the way to sue you, it probably means you've made them suffer along the road, which is much worse than a "nice settlement".
Of course, there is probably the odd person not really suffering and still suing just for money, but if there's ground for a lawsuit there's probably something morally wrong behind the scene.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
If someone says something vulgar, and someone else is offended... then you handle it. Depending on who you agree with, and the nature of the infraction, you tailor your response which might range from a simple "talking to" all the way to a firing.
That's it.
It's called "if you sexually harass someone you are fired." The "jokiness" and "just kidding" levels are mainly determined by the recipient.
All 10 of you need to find ways to get laid on a regular basis.
then you won't feel the need to be pigs at work.
I lived in the "good old boy" east Texas for about 5 years when I was younger. Texans are far more polite to their brethren than any other group I have ever experienced. Having said that, I am not sure how joking has anything to do with actually getting laid.
Ive worked in a NOC where we had 1 girl for the longest. She was considered "one of the guys." i'm openly gay and was treated as "one of the guys" the environment has a built in level of tolerance due to age group. If something hit too close a simple "hey too far" handle the situation. We all respected each others boundaries but also there was plenty of sexual banter of all types. Later when we got another female, due to respect to age and presentation, we toned it down but even after a while she was "one of the guys" sometimes the worse one (in a funny way). Everybody need to respect boundaries. And to also speak up to the group first before charging down to HR. I feel when "group speak-up" is leveraged it leads to a better team. Just my observation...
some people are a "glass half empty" some are "glass half full" i'm a "there is something in the glass be happy" person
Maybe because Jeff Dunham isn't worth quoting?
I mean, I wouldn't cry if I overheard someone repeating that garbage, but I certainly wouldn't mind if I never heard about the puppet man ever again.
"We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
So you're seriously arguing that the woman in the situation has to act like a mature adult and yet the males don't...
How about maturity on both sides? No one sues as the first resort to someone offending them and others grow the fuck up and try not to be offensive and demeaning?
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
It is guaranteed only as a function of the quality of the crowd in question. 1950's locker room has no place in the workplace. Never has (even if it was once permitted), never will be.
Now, if you truly believe that the behavior in question will be inevitable where you work, then you have big problems. If you are the manager, then it is your fault. You should have had a set of rules on professional behavior from the get-go regardless of whether it is/was an all-men crew.
Idiots in /. will tell you to grow a pair and to not be overly sensitive. They'll say whatever comes to their mind to defend their little psycho, socially ackward Howard Wolowitz+Sheldon Cooper values. They are not the ones that will have to deal with the fallout (possibly in state or federal court.) You will.
A simple rule of thumb to follow is this one: talk to your peers like if their mothers are present. Demand it now, enforce it now. There are services out there that helps businesses get up to speed with state and federal regulations regarding permissible and punishable workplace behavior. There are videos out there that can help train your peers in HR-related matters, like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUNXPFI6dYU
This is not a discussion on whether it is right or wrong, if people are over sensitive or whatever. That's subjective bullshit of no consequence. The only things that matter are 1) get the job done, 2) in a manner that does not get you, your company or your subordinates in state/federal hot water. Don't hit on her, don't tell her anything about her appearance, don't talk about her relations or your relations, or politics or religion for that matter. You want to talk crap, go with your buddy or buddies outside of the office, away from here, and spill your locker room chat to your heart's content. It is not rocket science.
Anything else (in particular the "else" type that will tell you not to give a rat's ass), that's just highschoolish subjective bull crap done by people from the comfort of their keyboards, that only care about the twisted me-me-me values they so sociopathically (sp?) cherish and that will never be there for you when shit hits the fan (except to say the government is over stepping, women are over-sensitive or something equally stupid.)
There are psychos who crave for power (you know the type in distorted pointy-hairy management), and there are psychos who push the envelope of sexual behavior, male-chauvinistic at best, and misogynistic at worst. You know who they are by the type of advise they'll give you in this subject.
If you have an ounce of common sense, you know who you'll listen.
.... it really sucks and sets tension in the air that just never seems to go away.
I worked for a popular retail store during my young adult years (mid-20s) and had a colleague blatantly sexually harass me. My dress was business attire with skirts that were two inches below the knees, and was strictly adhered to, it was not how I dressed. He even went so far as to put something on a display computer that a customer who tested a print file was shocked and dismayed at what he picked up from the printer and handed to me. I was mortified and so embarrassed. I was humiliated in front of a potential customer all because this guy thought his actions were funny or cute or something like that. I promptly demanded him to "get his ass over to the machine and remove the information or I would re-format the hard-drive and have him explain it to management." That and several other incidents finally prompted me to speak up. When I noticed that one of our security officers was also a Part-time police officer, I asked him for advice. He stated that I could indeed press charges, but it would be best if I addressed the issue with Management. I did, we were both interviewed, I was reprimanded for swearing and he got a slap on the wrist. I felt like my concerns were ignored. I had proof in my hands and was basically told, tough crap kiddo.
In the end, he was not fired, and we were never scheduled on the same shift. Frankly, I was livid, and I never felt comfortable there. Ever since then I am very wary about what I say that might elicit some sort of unwanted response. I have worked with teams that are consistently made up of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio in all of my different jobs, Often I am the only female on the technical team. I have never treated any other male colleague as though he was that first guy. And I've been lucky so far that there has never been a situation to deal with like the first one I described. I am no prude, I can keep up with the rest of my male colleagues jokes and even keep them in check.
But the biggest thing to take from all this is that once there is clear and definitive sexual harassment that makes the recipient feel uncomfortable, nothing short of a termination will make the recipient feel safe. It's harsh, but so is the feeling that comes from being harassed.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
But the kitchen is my favorite place to relax and masturbate during the workday, and I prefer not having an audience, thank you very much. I like your solution, but it obviously still needs some work.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
Hire someone to give onsite training. First time is a warning or time off without pay... Second time your fired... Sorry but Harassment isn't a joke.
...but if there's ground for a lawsuit there's probably something morally wrong behind the scene.
Given the litigious culture we live in these days, I'm not sure that's really the case. I agree that to some extent managers need to be careful about the sort of workplace environment they cultivate, but I think it's also important that employees let their boss know if they have some sort of issue with the environment. This was sort of an extreme example, but people can be offended by most any topic, and if being offended is immediately grounds to sue, then we're going to have very, very silent workspaces.
what user1 perceives as "It's what normal, mature human beings do" is offensive to user2.
And it ends there. So you're offended by the word "the"? Don't expect me to stop using it to make you happy.
How thick can you get?
If you want to interact with other human beings, start by respecting them. It really ends there.
Mind you it's not an obligation. If you don't give a shit, take my advice: avoid any interaction with anyone but your equally retarded friends.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Annnnndddd, there you go. The 'man' barks.
soylentnews.org Go there to enjoy the people!
if they were true IT guys, unless the woman looked like lara croft, i would not be concerned about it.
"I do take my wedding vows seriously as they are the foundation of my children's whole world and existence".
This sounds all kinds of weird.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Why does the one get to make the decision for the many?
No wonder men don't care often for working with women.
Only the immature and insecure feel this way. Believe it or not you can have a terrific working relationship or friendship with a woman without behaving like a jerk.
Guys can't be guys in the workplace....
By that I assume you mean they can't behave like juvenile imbeciles? That they can't make unnecessary hurtful remarks at the expense of others? That they can't make someone feel uncomfortable or afraid just because they feel like it?
Grow the hell up.
Just as you line out your work objectives for the year/quarter whatever you should also have a line on expectations in regards to values and ethics. Make your staff accountable for their behaviour with clear consequences for acting against those values and ethics. Does not need to be complicated, it's life skills stuff.
Well, imagine this if you would: Pretend that instead of going into a heavily male profession like IT, you'd gone into a heavily female profession, nursing. You go out, get a job, move to a new town, you show up for your first day of work and what you hear all day from other nurses is comments not about nursing but about the apparant size of your dick and your presumed sex life or lack thereof. And your ugly hag of a boss is deciding whether you'll be promoted or not based on how nicely you smile when she looks you up and down with clear sexual intent (or in more extreme cases whether you agree to sleep with her).
Think about how you'd really truly react in that kind of scenario, and you might understand the problem.
You're talking about actual harassment. I'm betting submitter is talking about "That's what she said" jokes a la The Office.
In this long-since-post-Anita-Hill era, your question is either intentionally naive or just plain ignorant.
Most IT departments I've worked in have had at least one woman in it. Sometimes it was almost balanced where our boss was a woman - about half of my bosses have been women in the 15+ years I've been in IT - and there were 3 or 4 women and 4 or 5 guys. Other times it may have been only 1 woman and the rest dudes - very testosterone-heavy usually. Today my boss is a man and all but 2 of my co-workers are men.
The only time there's ever been issues was when the Sr. System Administrator - a very young guy (only 19 at the time I believe) - had an unfortunate touch-feely habit and frequently got into trouble for walking around and rubbing several women's shoulders (not just in IT but in the entire corporate office!). He may have been just trying to be nice but most women thought it was creepy (and who knows maybe it was?). Though he was warned several times he was finally fired. On the upside I got his job and that more or less jump-started my career as a Sr. Systems/Network Admin.
To echo the numerous comments already made: Just don't do it. Act like adults and don't treat a woman any different than you treat men. Chances are you'll have to lay off some of the more obvious juvenile antics that guys are likely to do but otherwise it should be business as usual. She's not a sexual object and it doesn't need to be uncomfortable or weird unless the guys - probably young and immature ones who don't have much experience with women - don't have the grid to handle it.
I bet my hat you work for Microsoft.
For future reference, did you ever figure out why your coworker was offended?
I'm curious, as well. This sounds more like someone trying to make a quick buck than actually being offended.
It depends entirely on the woman. If she wants to be reasonable, nothing will happen. If she wants to win the jackpot ($$$), exact revenge on any one of you, or just generally make her life more interesting by creating drama, she will complain, then sue, etc. There's nothing you can do to prevent that, because if adequately motivated, the woman will simply lie or deliberately misinterpret things to take offense. Sorry.
I think more background information is needed to get the proper context here. I assumed she was crying because she had to hear yet another unfunny office drone do a poor job of quoting the flavor-of-the-month comedian.
Didn't like that joke? Try these:
....
We all know a Cougar is an older woman seeking a younger man for sex. Do you know what we call an older man seeking a younger man for sex?
A Nittany Lion
Did you see that line of white people at Whitney Houston's funeral? It was appropriate, since it was a white line that killed her.
Sock Puppets: damn_registrars=pudge_confirmer=jimmy_slimmy=raiigunner=cml4524=a_klavan=red4men=ronpaulisanidiot
Let's just forget the harassment laws. Are you guys in elementary school and can't control yourselves around woman? Grow up and get over yourselves with the "we're in IT" excuse as if that explains something.
not weird...some people take promises seriously, regardless of who they are made to, when, why, or how legally binding they are.
a promise as the foundation for a life, when that promise is taken seriously and not devalued at all isn't weird...that's what we should hold as the norm.
(again, regardless of whom the promise is between, and how legally binding it is)
While it is absolutely acceptable to ensure all team members conform to the dress code, it is inappropriate to dress down a woman for "wearing enticing clothing" in the context of a male coworker's sexual advances. The infraction the female team member committed was against the lab dress code, which is not there to ensure the correct behavior of the male team members. In administrating the dispute this way, you have sent the message to the female team member that the dress code is there explicitly to marshall her sexuality: that for her, and not for a male team member, not following the dress code carries an extra consequence of inviting sexual harassment. And to the male team member, you have sent the message that although his behavior is ultimately against the rules, it is not unexpected and at least some of the blame lies with the person he was harassing.
Perhaps as you say, neither was guiltless. However it is your responsibility to ensure that you administrate all of the lab policy properly, and claiming that a dress code exists to prevent men from being "enticed" by female coworkers is a form of harassment in an of itself. I myself work in a chemistry lab where a female labmate is in the habit of wearing revealing clothing. This is of course, against the dress code. However it is against the dress code because it is unsafe to expose undue amounts of skin in an active chemical laboratory, and second because it is unprofessional. Our PI has admonished her publicy because of this, and has always indicated that it is a question of safety. It would be extremely inappropriate for him to administer a public reprimand for her clothing being "sexy" or anything to that effect. If any reprimand is adminstered at all about the clothing being distracting, it should be administered out of view of the rest of the lab to indicate that the disciplinary infraction is one against a laboratory policy, not one that the lab as a whole has the right to administer.
While the female team member is unquestionably to blame for not following the dress code, it is not correct to say she is to blame for an episode of sexual harassment. And while it appears your female team member found no issue with it, I find it hard to believe that anyone, when bringing a sexual harassment complaint against a coworker, would not be made extremely uncomfortable being hauled in front of their harasser, and admonished for wearing "enticing" clothing, even if the harasser was later administered a comparable reprimand (Which does not even seem to be the case here. You made clear that the female team member was in violation of a lab policy, which you implied was designed to protect her male coworkers and not her, and had committed a professional infraction. The male team member, however, was admonished for a personal infraction, i.e. "failure to be a gentleman." Not following the dress code is breaking a rule, but sexually harassing a coworker is equated with forgetting to hold the door or splitting the check at dinner).
If you want to interact with other human beings, start by respecting them.
"Respect" is such a subjective term. Using the word "the" might be deemed to be disrespectful by one person who happens to take offense to it.
Mind you it's not an obligation.
It practically is, but changing your manner of speaking in case someone might be offended by it has its advantages. You can avoid being sued into oblivion, apparently. That's why school adopt nonsensical zero tolerance policies.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
The original post seems like a troll to me. However, if not, my advise is to just not harass anyone.
Give your staff the benefit of the doubt and assume that they might be able to act like professionals. If you have a problem later you can deal with it appropriately.
Trying to figure out how to grind your staff under your heel before there's a problem is an insult to your employees. If you're convinced there is going to be a problem it demonstrates incompetence in your interview & hiring policies.
Oh, wait....
Sad isn't it. It's the absolute truth and yet it sounds weird to people these days.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
For future reference, did you ever figure out why your coworker was offended?
Yes, she was very honest about that. The part that she found offensive was the "two Jews walk into a bar" joke by "Achmed". Even though there was an Israeli colleague sitting at the same table who was not offended, she felt offended by it because it could have been offensive for Jewish people. She herself belongs to the Asian-American minority.
Admitted, now that I've been living in the U.S. for almost two years, I can understand why she felt offended. Race seems to be much more of an issue here in the U.S. than in my home country and I took this as a lesson learned. I'm much more cautious with what I'm joking about in the office now (yes, that's after the Respectful Workplace training).
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
Problem solved. Year and a half later, still no issues; she's dressed at least a little closer to the dress
-nB
So problem not solved. The guy has to act right while she only marginally has to dress better, but still not to code.
Staff orgies!
I hope you do. You need to educate women that this kind of entitled behaviour is unacceptable.
Is the abuse of power by a person in a position of power, to try to obtain sexual favors. Making a comment about a co-workers boobs in NOT harassment. Slapping a co-worker's ass is NOT harassment (but it may be assault). However a boss telling an employee that he/she will be denied advancement unless he/she performs some sort of sex act IS sexual harassment. But like many other words such as "genocide" and "terrorist", "harassment" has been bastardized to include any sexual behavior between anyone if one of the parties doesn't consent (or later changes their mind about consenting).
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
If the original question had anyone seriously thinking about how appropriate it was, this rewording should make it crystal clear as to how stupid the proposal is. People need to grow the hell up or they just don't get to work in a profession. End of story.
Depends on the severity. If a guy says "OMG [random woman] was really hot in [movie]" then it's verbal warning about not talking about that stuff at work. If it's "[guy] groped [girl]" then obviously immediate firing and documentation that you encouraged the [girl] to file a police report.
> expecting a new colleague: a female one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
Don't worry, most women will not subject you to any remarks, double entendres and innuendos, they will probably behave just like all the other geeks around you. Give women a chance!
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
Ok, sure, that's fine and good. But did you suffer many tens of thousands (maybe even millions) of dollars in damages from that experience? I think not. Did your then-coworkers deserve a criminal record and getting dragged to court and put through the legal wringer and having their lives ruined because of those cultural gaps? Again, I doubt that seriously.
I'm sorry but women need to choose one and only one option: be protected like a child or some kind of delicate little flower, or be treated as an equal and expected to tolerate anything a man is expected to deal with. They are mutually exclusive by their very nature.
And what should have been the proper response to this?
You mean what is the proper response to a perceived death threat? Pretty much exactly what happened is the proper response. Yes it seems extreme in hindsight but the situation cannot be properly evaluated that way. A colleague is told essentially to shut up or they will be killed. If you don't know the full context of the joke it is very easy to perceive that as a deadly serious threat. While it was indeed a joke, such things need to go through proper channels and sometimes
Tell the crying woman, after an explanation (maybe she didn't 'get it' for some reason)...after a point, to get over it. It is a fucking joke.
What is intended as a joke is not always funny to others. In some cases it can be deadly offensive. While intent needs to be taken into account, sometimes it doesn't actually matter.
It isn't your fault someone misunderstands things or has such a thin skin and likely will cry if too many flies are swatted on the window sill.
Actually it IS your fault. The other person might share some of the blame in some cases but you don't get to decide what is offensive to others. If you make an attempt at a joke and it is perceived as an offense, you are at fault for that. Making a joke can be quite risky so you had better be sure of your audience.
Turned out that he was gay (nobody had ANY clue) and found the workplace to be sexually hostile.
Under the circumstances that you described (and many other "guys just being guys" situations), I am pretty sure that anyone, of any gender or sexual orientation, could have won a lawsuit.
It isn't about who might be offended. It is about following well understood and easily complied with standards that protect everyone.
Why not just let the "market" handle it? If some place is really so bad for , then they can choose not to accept the position or leave after accepting the position... if a lack of diversity is really a negative in their industry, then the team will not be do top quality work and will eventually move towards obsolescence. I really dislike that the US has laws making it illegal to offend others.
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
I know this is a weird, out-there idea...but maybe help them get lives outside of work. If they've got something going outside of work, then maybe they wont meddle with the women at work?
I'm not saying take the males at your work to somewhere inappropriate like a bar or strip club (BAD IDEA either of those).
Invite them (everyone in your immediate work group - women included/invited) to a local billiard/pool hall once a week, on some of the company dime. Eventually your group will be marked as "regulars" and you'll be treated as one of the crowd. Just maybe, maybe, there will be single women around for your single male workers to socialize with *there*, away from work!
The same would work for bowling alleys. Can't think of other examples at the moment, but I'm sure they're around.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
I'm betting submitter is talking about "That's what she said" jokes a la The Office.
That's what he, loser of a sexual harassment judgement, said.
The Office is funny because the characters are clearly caricatures of badly behaving people.
People: if you can't stop yourself from saying sexually harassing things, you've got some serious problems.
It really is much more simple than that: If you don't care enough about the person you're talking to, just don't talk to him/her. Caring is knowing the other person, his/her limits, culture, tastes. And how do you learn all that? By paying attention, listening.
Of course, the odd mistake can happen, but if you care just one bit, you will notice it and can handle it gently. By going to see the person offended and talking to him/her. Chances are that this alone will make up for your mistake.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
I worked for a software startup with about a dozen engineers. Our front-office administrator, "Susan", was a very attractive, very busty young woman with a great sense of humor; she was "one of the guys" who joined our happy hours and inappropriate banter. As the company became more successful, we brought in a new CEO. After a few weeks went by, he organized us into a conference room to talk about sexual harassment, in hopes of changing our office culture.
Just as he was midway through his little speech, Susan came into the room carrying refreshments: two plastic gallon containers of iced tea.
After a moment, one of the engineers said, "Nice jugs."
Just thought I'd share.
Some people live in cultures where "Silence, I kill you." is a real possibility, especially for women. When you have lived in a world where a man can drag you in the street and stone you to death with no fear of repercussions then it's not really a funny joke and "getting over it" is not necessarily easy.
So you are already assuming everyone guilty?
Seriously, if you would institute any of the measures you mentioned on me, I would consider resigning.
But apparently, you have an existing problem. I find it hard to believe that everyone on your team is problematic, so why don't you, you know, focus on the actual problem, the people who are an issue?
I am really, really sick and tired of this pre-assumption that all men are chauvinist pigs.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I'm much more impressed with this comment thread than with the female body armor thread yesterday... Cheers
I am a heterosexual male. I had a colleague once that was gay. He would constantly deliver sexual remarks, innuendo etc. that was so uncomfortable that I started avoiding his section of the office, and dreading running into him. Because something like that had never happened to me, I actually didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know I was supposed to give him a verbal slap in the face to make the situation stop, and then also follow it up with management action if it persisted.
It was actually quite horrible. The thing is, you don’t know it is happening to you. Even after its happening for a long time it’s so out of the ordinary you think it’s just one of those things you are supposed to be able to deal with. You feel that raising the problem with superiors will only make it more uncomfortable.
Now I totally understand woman who feel they are being sexually harassed.
The onus is on the victim to immediately undertake the following course of action. The onus on the manager is to *inform* everyone that this is the appropriate course of action. In fact, as a manger you only have to tell everyone what the steps are.
Step 1. Schedule a formal meeting between only yourself and the person harassing you in a board room. Make the meeting several days in advance to give it some gravitas. Ask that the person bring their employee number with them to the meeting. If they refuse any of this then proceed to step 2.
In the meeting lay it out exactly: “You said such and such. I felt very uncomfortable. I am construing this as sexual harassment. If you do it again, I’m going to lay a formal sexual harassment complaint against you. I am will inform management, HR, and the full chain of command and mention your name and employee number. What’s your employee number?” Write down their employee number in front of them. If they refuse, proceed directly to step 2.
If the perpetrator ever says anything to make you feel uncomfortable again, proceed to step 2.
Step 2. Immediately bring this whole incident to attention of HR, management, and all the way up the chain of command.
The rule is this: you should NEVER be persistently forced to feel uncomfortable in the office. Of course there are people who will disagree about politics, religion, nuclear power, saving the penguins, etc. However disagreeing is different to someone PERSISTANTLY TRYING TO ENGAGE YOU in a discussion that will make you uncomfortable.
Someone PERSISTANTLY TRYING TO ENGAGE YOU in an uncomfortable discussion is where “disagreement” becomes “harassment”.
It can be religious harrassment, political harrassement, or anything.
That's a clown question, bro.
You define, in person and in writing, what sexual harassment is. (See a lawyer if you're confused, although there is plenty of documentation on the internet.) You develop a policy, also written, on how it will be dealt with, including full documentation in their employee file for every offense and then you follow that policy to the letter. That policy had better be "one, maybe two, warnings and then they are they are fired," or you are going to lose any resulting lawsuit.
You have very little time to "embrace your managerness" here. As someone else pointed out, this ain't yer frat house.
The problem stems from the definition of "harassing". It's literally anything that the perceiver finds offensive. Did you pass gas? Was someone offended? Harassment. Accident or no, doesn't matter. Zero Tolerance. You're fired. Did you look down at someone's shoes because someone else mentioned them? Oh my God! You just looked her up and down! Harassment! Zero Tolerance. You're fired. Did you say "hi" to the pretty new girl, and you're 240 lbs and ugly? You guessed it...
Yes, HR does consider the human element, and there is considerable wiggle room, but for those of us who are nerds and see rules as absolutes, zero tolerance harassment rules are scary, especially when you don't know if you're breaking them (how can anyone know what someone else will find offensive)?
Same reasoning can be applied to racial discrimination. There is, in fact, a market for discrimination, however it externalizes its costs, and law suits represent how we tax that externalization.
Fugue for Aaron Swartz
Sounds like you have some unresolved issues from the late 1990s, or possibly listen to too much talk radio.
Have them stop watching porn at work, tell them to act like adults, fire someone to prove your point that you are serious about them acting like adults and get them all girlfriends http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/07/17/1710213/modest-proposal-for-stopping-hackers-get-them-girlfriends
That is if the group can handle talking to women. Also you may want to start a rumor that someone already there is gay so it would be just like they are already talking a woman. Also the woman that got hired is she a woman or a WHAAA!!!! type person that will go running to the ACLU at the accidental bump into when everyone goes to sit down at the meeting table?
As far as the males concern, only hire gays.
Just kidding, and no, this is no a pun. I'm just saying that it's the macho subculture that is the problem here. Not all men are such retards. Just, one person is enough to encourage the rest. Pinpoint that one(s), give him a reprimande - in advance if needed - with the suggestion he could go look for another job if he doesn't behave.
And the fact that this is a recurring issue at your place highly insinuates you have one or few trouble starters. Get rid of them, and the rest will go along well. There's lot of other professions where males and females work together without sexist atmosphere. However, group pressure might encourage others in undesired behaviour too, even if they'd have more manners by themselves.
While you can't discriminate or harass you don't have to give reasons for not hiring an individual - often small teams of men or women don't work well (productivity) when a single team member of the opposite sex is introduced - more about being self concious and less relaxed for all involved i think - same thing goes for different personality types.
If you are stuck with a small immature team of non professionals you prob shouldn't have hired her.
If in the unlikely event it is a professional team (no not that professional/exec level branding used for recruitment) then you wouldn't be asking - but make sure there is a grievance procedure so she can raise an issue.
I'd think this obvious. Anyone walking into an environment that they don't like shouldn't expect that environment to change. It can be a female into a team of males, a male into a team of females, a man into a team of monkeys. If she's not happy with what men do, then she shouldn't apply for a job amongst a team of men. There are plenty of female-based workplaces, and any woman has my support to start her own.
There's nothing wrong with a team of men choosing to act with the comradery expected of such a team.
But, I'll tell you what. If I can apply for a job with a team of women, and force them to stop crying, and wearing lipstick, because I find those offensive; then I'll support the whole "no puns in the workplace" carp.
Seriously, it's an easy line to draw. Sticks and stones. Words are fine. Not pleasant, but fine.
If you don't like men, stop spending time around them. It's that simple.
You're an awfully long way from a "swear jar", whiner.
Oh, help me Superman! My life is being put through the wringer because I have to observe a minor change in the social dynamics of my wooooorkplaaaaaaaaaaaace!
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
hello. plz don't hire people that are so socially backward that they are sexist all the time. those are bad people, no matter how many times they bought bitcoins or voted for ronpaul. what im saying is fire everyone, concluding with yourself.
It's simple enough. In the good old days at the phone company, this was pretty well standard fare. Then some employee won a multi-million dollar lawsuit, and Things Changed.
Now (or as of when I left) - sexual harassment was simply a fire-on-sight offense. No counciling, no warnings, no nothing.
It's astounding how quickly things cleaned up.
I cleaned up -my- act, and I was probably one of the worst offenders.
Don't take life too seriously; it isn't permanent.
Warn then that Sexual harassment will not be tolerated fire the first guy on the spot.
The rest will fall in line
True.
Not from Texas. Just visited. Some of the politest people I've met.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Holy crap, now that's uptight. I've got a colleague that constantly cracks antisemitic jokes to me, and I answer by behaving like an agent of the zionist occupation government. We get along just fine.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Some would:
http://www.inc.com/news/articles/2010/07/mens-sexual-harassment-claims-on-the-rise.html
According to most of the news Google could find on the subject, men file approximately 15% of all sexual harassment suits, and that number is growing.
I am officially gone from
...or at least how adults 'should' act.
Grow up guys.
We have very strict guidelines against autosexual harassment that was implemented before the ladies policies, no masturbating anywhere.
This policy were implemented because a Dick was threatening to Sue the head off the department, because the head used its arms to touch the Dick for pleasure.
It was a mess to solve, someone claimed it was all misinterpreted. Also, some lady apparently had brought guns to work....
So I now have to know *every* *possible* *thing* that can offend people from *every* *possible* *culture*.
And it's funny how no one *ever* has to understand mine. It's *always* a one way street due to rampant double standards.
In the USA, we have laws against sexual harassment - any unwanted advancement - PERIOD. Any employer who doesn't take drastic steps once notified has showed complacency and can be sued for lots-o-dollars.
If you ask a coworker out and they say "no", it isn't sexual harassment. At that point, the direct question "do you fancy me" would be advised to determine if there is any interest or not from the other side. If no interest, drop it right there and stay 100% professional. Making sexual innuendos should be avoided in mixed company or in private at work for everyone, unless the woman starts it.
I have been harassed by 3 different women over a 15 yr period myself which required action by the 3 different employers in 2 different states. Two of them where reassigned to different buildings, had their contracts lapse and were gone within 6 months.
The 3rd was fired due to all the explicit suggestions she put into SMS and company emails and when she started phoning me at midnight at home. The telephone calls at home really were the last straw.
I've been in consentual relationships with women in different departments at work, so I'm not someone to try to get women fired, it is the "unwanted, persistent sexual advances" that forced my actions. I would have preferred that their careers weren't impacted, but going into a hostile work environment simply can't be tolerated. My stomach was in knots every day for months at work.
Easy, sleep with her first.....problem solved
Disregarding that nursing is not like that at all, I would not mind one slick bit. Maybe it's because I'm used to hearing it from women already, though. You might not notice it, but there's a remarkable amount of misandry that is shoveled onto the shoulders of men on a daily basis, and nursing doesn't have any extra helpings of it, but it's something that all men are raised to cope with.
Captcha: "industry." How appropriate.
Sexual Harassment at work video on Youtube. This should be very informative lol. Safe at work link by the way.
How is not complaining about your coworkers disrespecting you adapting to an environment? What exactly will you do if you leave out telling either your coworkers or your boss that people are being a bunch of unprofessional asses? Just simmer quietly and look for another job? That's hardly "manly" by any definition.
I've noticed a couple of things while working in offices - women get away with a hell of a lot more than men.
Women are allowed to wear the skimpiest of outfits, but men can be reprimanded for noticing.
Women are allowed to comment on men's looks (you look dashing today), but not the other way around.
Women are allowed to make fun of "man flu" when their male coworkers are ill, but men aren't allowed to make similar comments.
And if men try to point out that one or more of the female coworkers are behaving inappropriately, they get shot down and told to man up and no be crybabies.
Personally I don't see an issue with harassment policies being in place - my main issues are with selective enforcement and rules that do not apply to everyone.
and yet countless gay people's lives *are*, in part because they're expected to just smile and deal with it
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Honestly I've yet to run into this environment in my 12 years of being an engineer, we're professionals, but I've met people like what you're implying. So I'd suggest:
1 - See if it's actually a problem, computer guys are stereo-typically shy around women, and they may shape up in mixed company. Conversely your new recruit may be able to handle herself just fine in that environment, and doesn't want/need help from management.
2 - If it is a problem lay down the law, make an example of the first person to cross the line and anyone that supports them. You might have some turn-over, but your better off for it in the long term getting professionals.
The Office is funny because the characters are clearly caricatures of badly behaving people.
Harassment should take intent into account, just like many other crimes. Mere offense is not enough to confirm that actual harassment has occurred (although that is the currently accepted definition). Sure, if Dwight Schrute were a real person, he'd be in jail for myriad assault and arson charges. If Michael Scott were a real person, do you think that a few inappropriate jokes would mean that he intended to demean, belittle, or harass his employees?
This is crystal-clear accounting.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Avoid alcohol at lunches, after work get togethers, team building exercises, offsite meetings, traveling, Christmas parties, etc.
Because of this.
"... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful,
Of course he said something. I said something. Several other employees said something. There were a number of us who weren't exactly thrilled to work in an office that often resembled a frathouse more than a place of business. Nobody said anything about suing or threatened to call in the EEOC, but management clearly understood that there were people who were less than happy with the situation. They chose to ignore the fact that some of their employees didn't like the behavior, and they paid the price for their choice. A managers job is to manage, which means preventing this sort of situation. When they failed to intervene, they demonstrated their inability to perform the job. When the other two "instigating" employees chose to bring Playboys to work, email hardcore porn around the office, and insult anyone who asked not to see it (actually calling us "whiners" in one email), they demonstrated an ongoing disrespect for their fellow employees.
They didn't lose their jobs because of "words". They lost their jobs because they couldn't be professionals. If you can't behave like a mature adult, don't get pissed off when people stop treating you like one.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
If someone uses his power to force sexual favors over you you have all the right in the world to prosecute the company. It is not only the right thing to do but something good for the company.
On the other hand wanting your company to adapt to you because you can't deal with fleeting remarks is ridiculous. Grow up, deal you your feelings and get your job done.
As a start, everyone does a 1/2 hour sensitivity training that basically explains the rules of the workplace.
Working on the assumption that most people hate to waste their time...
If you have an offender, they're required to take a 2 hours workplace ethics training. A second offense - its a full day workshop. Third strike - they're out.
Oh, and their project schedules don't slip.
I have seen FEW actual adults anywhere. Make people comfortable and happy and moments of childish behavior happen; almost always harmless. Office politics on the other hand brings out the mean teenager in everybody but a few with the restraint and increased blood pressure.
As for "professionalism" that is BS as well. If we all live like machines life is easier for management, kings, dictators, etc. and life also sucks. Why work more than 30 hours per week spending most of your life doing something you hate? Oh I forgot, so you can buy shit you don't need and prove you are not lazy because you can take it in the ass better than those lazy union and European workers.
Inappropriate actions should not be taken lightly especially about sexual harassment. If it's not done already, create a policy and make it clear to all employees. The company and all it's members are at stake with this. People can lose jobs and business can close down just cause some idiot made a joke or made a move and it went wrong... Then enforce those policies on all employees. This is simple stuff that was made 30 years ago, please don't regress our culture some 50-60 years in the pass. Those things aren't suppose to happen anyway today. Women do everything a man can do and even better in some cases.
Unless you want your staff to constantly tip toe on egg shells and have one member need special privileges and produce less, I offer a simple solution. Don't hire a woman.
I wonder if they're polite to everyone, or only to the people who find them polite.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
I've also worked in environments where I was the only white guy or as an American was the foreigner in the group with little understanding of the culture or language. I can definitely sympathize. Sometimes it sucks. It's something you have to tackle and it isn't always "fair" but lets be honest, that discomfort you felt? 90% of the time it's called paranoia and is not your co-workers problem it is yours.
The reason you shouldn't let this happen should not be the fear of a lawsuit, but the welfare of your employees.
100% correct - companies should do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because they might get sued for not doing the right thing.
Unfortunately, considering that most corporations would be considered sociopaths were they to be psychoanalyzed, the possibility that they will do the right thing because it's the right thing is slim-to-none; hence, fear of legal (or rather, financial) repercussion is about the only way to get their attention.
It's sad and stupid, but thus is the world we inhabit.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
It's not about off-the-cuff remarks. Contrary to what popular (right-wing) culture wants to tell you, not every woman is a raging man-hating bitch for not wanting a consistent stream of sexist remarks directed at her.
Mature women can handle the occasional off-the-cuff remark as long as there is no pattern of consistent misogyny. If you want to see what such a pattern looks like, try reading this discussion, or any Slashdot discussion that touches on feminism, at -1.
Mart
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Everyone knows he hangs with one of the best lawyers in town... you didn't hear it from me, but some say he's a prick.
Either you don't have kids, or you are an absentee parent. Stability and safety is seriously important to growing humans. Marriage and all the collected social norms of different societies have around relationships can be said to have a evolutionary function. That is, raising stable individuals whom are deemed worthy of procreation by others of their kind.
Also it is quite possible have belief systems different than yours - shocking I know. Wait, why is that shocking?
By some you mean a very small percentage, right? And only in countries were suing is becoming an sport, like US. I can't really blame them.
The truth is the silliness of your overreaction to people's hurt feelings is to become a non competitive market for hiring. Every time you make more dangerous to contract people without being sued, more jobs will be outsourced. Good luck!
True. Not from Texas. Just visited. Some of the politest people I've met.
Yea, heavily armed populaces trend that way.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Could you elaborate?
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
I think that also illustrates why there is so much push back from people. Apparently, it worked out OK, but in some organizations it would mean you would lose your job or at least have your career go on the slow track because someone got offended to tears by the thought that someone else might have been offended (and apparently that someone else was NOT offended, no less).
Being in that sort of situation is in itself a hostile work environment. It can be a delicate balance, at some point being too easily offended becomes offensive!
Harassment should take intent into account, just like many other crimes.
"But your Honor, I didn't mean to offend her when I said she had nice tits! Hell, it was supposed to be a compliment!"
Good luck with that defense, Jack.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
So the guy named "Tastecicles" is defending sexual harassment. Classy.
To be fair, Poplars was already taken
You're obviously not taking it seriously. Sexual harassment can cause real damage to some people. Say this woman was raped in the past and a comment opens some old wounds and she can't bring herself back to work? Want to do something that doesn't draw attention? Put the big boy manager pants on and issue a written reprimand and warning to those who cause trouble and keep it confidential. "Bob, we appreciate your humor in the work place, but this was completely inappropriate. Find another outlet for your humor. Consider this your only warning, next time further action will be taken such as suspension without pay up to and including termination. Sign here." Making a guy wear an embarrassing tie only makes it a laughing matter.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
I gave this sort of briefing in my Air Force workcenters. Suggested delivery is smiling, low-key, but leaving no doubt you are dead serious.
"This is a "one-sided conversation".
There will be zero sexual harassment. You don't NEED to have any words leave your lips which aren't business, so when in doubt, shut the fuck up. If you can't speak without being stupid, then don't speak at all.
Since you are NOT a giggly stupid socially inept chucklehead, compliance won't bother you a bit and this doesn't offend you.
I don't care what you WANT. You will obey ORDERS, or appropriate disciplinary measures will be taken."
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
If you are writing an article about this, you need to get some training from human resources otherwise you will get yourself in real trouble, even if you think you are doing the right thing or saying the right words. In essence, men and women interact differently with each other, HR will say that gender is not relevant, that sex jokes should not be told regardless of gender, but the truth on the ground is different. So take a trip to your HR department, if you don't have one, grab a book.
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So if your co-workers made comments you find insulting, you'll be passive and not do anything? Not even tell them to shut up? I mean seriously, if a co-worker sneered at you for making a mistake and claimed "it's what we get for hiring a man to do a woman's job," you won't feel even the slightest desire to confront the mindset?
Given what you have described about your workplace, the best advice right now is NOT to hire her.
You can't handle the truth.
equally retarded friends.
Retarded people are human beings. You have an interesting definition of respect.
While it is absolutely acceptable to ensure all team members conform to the dress code, it is inappropriate to dress down a woman for "wearing enticing clothing" in the context of a male coworker's sexual advances. The infraction the female team member committed was against the lab dress code, which is not there to ensure the correct behavior of the male team members.
No, and that's an extremely stupid way of viewing things. What this manager did was quite correct (and in case you missed it, it also fixed the problem). There's absolutely no difference in dressing down a girl for wearing clothes that put everything her mother gave her on display and dressing down a guy for making sexual advances toward her (regardless of what she's wearing). You say he's "sent a message" to a female team member that the dress code is there to marshall her sexuality - when actually, he's just trying to keep her from sending a message that says "fuck me" to everything within 50 miles that has a penis (and maybe a lot of things that don't).
Would you have a problem with a man wearing clothes that clearly display the outline of his erect penis? Would you have a problem with a dress code that disallowed that, or would you consider that "marshalling his sexuality?" Strangely, I suspect you would have no problem with a girl making an explicit verbal overture to one of her male co-workers (she's just excersizing her sexual freedom, right?), and yet, how is any of that any different than when the genders are reversed?
My point is that there's a double-standard being held here, by both sides, and neither is right. The workplace isn't the place for sexual advances by either sex, and both sexes need to have more respect for the others' sexuality. If a girl's a prude, guys (and girls) ought to respect that, and if somebody wants to bang the shit out of everything in sight, don't make it obvious at work.
Seems like common sense to me.
Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
The headline registered as "Ask Slashdot: Promoting Sexual Harassment In the Workplace?" The brain said "Really? I know it's Slashdot, but still..." and asked the eyes to check again.
"after discussing the issue with legal, and discovering that hiring a woman would lead to most of the male team being fired for harassment, we have decided to hire another man instead."
Sorry, but there are two huge sides to this issue. On the one side, when the average sexual harassment suit brings in about $800,000, you think there aren't going to be people who will take even a slight problem and turn it into a payday? On the other hand, there are businesses that are run more like locker rooms that places of professional behavior. I worked at a place that was operated mostly by ex-military folk, and to call the environment salty, testosterone laden or simply female antagonistic, would be raising understatement to art form. The ladies there were gracious, good humored and good natured, but it was common practice to hire girls by chest size and guys were always trying to "Take a dip in the secretarial pool..."
This place existed before sex harassment suits, and I'm betting its changed a lot since I was there. In the early 80s, a female lawyer went around to most of the large businesses trying to convince them they needed to be educated in preventing harassment. They told her to get lost. She spoke to women at the 6 largest and there were suits filed against all of them with 2 months, costing those companies millions of dollars (back in the 80s that hurt big time.) Needless to say, every business over single ownership had a sensitivity class put on by this lady and she made better money training businesses than she did suing people. Welcome to life as we know it today.
"But your Honor, I didn't mean to offend her when I said she had nice tits! Hell, it was supposed to be a compliment!"
The intent there is clear from the words used. However, a bawdy joke in which no specific person is referenced isn't the same.
Externalization is when one person enjoys the benefit, and passes the cost on to someone else.
Fugue for Aaron Swartz
Wait, do you ALL work in a kitchen?
Seriously. Why hire someone that you know is going to cause a problem for the team? I'm sure a suitable HR acceptable reason could be found to not hire a person if you *know* its going to cause an issue. I don't understand why you build a rod for your own back.
Well to hell with their "realness" and their "feelings". Their attitude is pathetic.
I could imagine members of that group saying exactly that to the newcomers. Presumably this group adds real value to the business. The fact that they have real cohesion and esprit de corps is also valuable. People are people, not monsters or 2D toons. The real challenge is simply to get everyone to realize this.
Which is why the far easier route of adhering to a accepted standard of maturity and professionalism is the way to go. Don't harass people. Don't have your "fun" at the expense of someone else's ability to their job without unwanted and needless distraction.
This group probably feels that everyone who comes to work with them has somehow bought into their particular cultural standards. The business can either ratify this culture, or convince them to adjust. The former is probably going to limit hiring and open the business up to legal action. The latter can also be disastrous if it's handled badly.
I think the key is consensual behavior.
I'm not against off-color or horrible jokes -- in the context of my close friends and family. Total strangers coming out of the woodwork and imposing things like that upon me isn't acceptable, and feels wrong. Right now I'm staying at a Hacker Hostel in "The Castro" in San Francisco. (It's also called "The Gayborhood.") There are places aplenty here where the gentlemen being discussed could go and experience some "kidding around" of a sexually charged nature, much of which might not be to their personal preferences. I wonder how they would feel being the subject of such non-consensual kidding.
You can tell them to shut up, and if they refuse you can behave like an adult and just ignore them.
An excellent example of the mindset that gets escorted out of the building, clutching at pink slip and a cardboard box full of its possessions, sputtering, "W-what did I do?"
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." Feynman
Its called Political Correctness...and it is taking the fun out of everything. You combine that with such a litigious society...and the last thing you have to fear after that.....is anything ever being said again.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Just have every employee work remotely while inside a virtual reality pod. In the VR world, everyone is just an amorphous grey blob with a genderless, monotone voice. The software will also filter out potentially offensive words (for example: "meat", "tight", "hot" and "pony").
I hope this helps.
Where to get VR pods? I dunno. Google it or something. I can't solve *all* your problems! Sheesh!
Assuming that "fun ways" means "fired instantly".
And?
Were you going somewhere with this....?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Just wanted to say thanks.
A lot of the time we get stories about women and tech, and the replies are often quite bothersome. But seeing all the very nice and mature responses to this was a very refreshing change.
So thanks.
Tell them to grow up and act like adults.
How many people have you encountered for which "the" is disrespectful? I guess none, so please stop with this.
And no, it's not an obligation to talk to other human beings. Of course, if you want a "normal" office job, it probably will be. Then, learn to respect the others. Yes it is a subjective term, but it is what makes society. So you can't just dismiss it.
BTW, zero tolerance policies are stupid. At least we agree on that. In everything you have two sides, and most often both are stupid, it's the middle ground that makes sense.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Likely as not...the reason for this is to get in on the money train like the women have....not that it really bothers or offends most guys. But hey, why let the chicks get all the money for just for litigating against some off color jokes, equal opportunity for men to get in on some of the money now too.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Have someone come to your workplace, explain what the repercussions are for acting like an idiot. A person can be personally sued, and a company will certainly be sued. You can lose everything. You can be labeled as someone who harasses, and that can travel with you. You can be forced to face your behavior in court, now explain that to your wife and children. Daddy lost the house because he like to pat girls on the ass. Let people know what is acceptable, what is not. You call a girl "Babe" and you're probably good to go, you could even say "Get over it, Babe!" On the other hand, you say "Blow me, Babe!" and I hope you've inherited a vast fortune because you're about to part with some of it. Let your guys know that they just be respectful and professional. They can even say "You know what, this is a pretty male centric space, please let us know if we do anything that you find uncomfortable or irritating." In most case she's going to want to be one of the guys, so she can work easily with you and you'll all arrive at a happy place. Just be a little conscious.
There was a famous investment firm in the late 80s that was said to have a really macho corporate culture. They referred to the top seller of the month as the "Big Swinging Dick" which was funny considering a fair number of months belonged to women on the team and caused discordant sentences like "Lisa is this months big swinging dick..." Anyway, their CEO did time at club Fed, and after they started burning out a number of folks sued them for hostile work environments, a gay guy who's sports car was painted with all kinds of awful graffiti, and women who were publicly groped, fondled and spoken to in a lewd or lascivious manner. You don't want to be known as that place. It isn't pretty.
I'd likely have a quick, witty and equally powerful retort to say back to them.
And..I'm not talking about being outright mean, nasty or actually physically harrassing anyone..I'm talking about off color jokes...good natured ribbing....
For some reason, it seems...women can't seem to comprehend that it isn't something targeted at THEM to hurt them...
Difference between male and female mentality I guess....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
So I now have to know *every* *possible* *thing* that can offend people from *every* *possible* *culture*.
And it's funny how no one *ever* has to understand mine. It's *always* a one way street due to rampant double standards.
Hmmm. Troubled, are you? No it's not a one way street. The point is to try to be with the others as you'd like the others to be with you, but it just doesn't translate quite this literally. Because most often they have different values. So yes, interacting with other human beings is not just about making crude jokes at the coffee machine.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
That depends on where AC was going with "no one's *life* should be fucked over because of words"
It's surely a wonderful sentiment but I rather suspect AC does not apply it all that consistently.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
I sincerely hope you neither have, nor ever will have, a daughter.
Seriously!
I am a female software engineer in a development team with 3 guys (8 if you count testers and the web guys) and I have never been hit on by a coworker! Period! Nor has anyone ever 'joked' about me. This should be a non-issue. If you were gay, would it be OK to hit on the other guys at work or for other guys to make jokes about your sexual orientation?
Offensive links are considered not-safe-for-work for a reason. The same should be considered about all conversations. If you want to say lewd things after work over a beer with a group of friends, that's a totally different ball game. (And I go out to the movies or for dinner with my coworkers at least once a month).
Require that all employees come to work naked. Once she sees Kevin's big hairless breasts, she'll quit and things can go back to normal.
Just like you do to stop a forest fire, build trenches and start your own backfire. In this case preemptively start sexual harassing everyone in the group -- that way the group will be gone before the new hire comes in.
Daughter? I have your daughter right here.. glock glock glock
I'm well aware of what externalization is, but I don't understand how it applies to the situation at hand. What benefit is being enjoyed, and by whom? What costs are created?
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
It can't be prevented, so people need to just suck it up and stop suing for every little thing. Sexual harassment is not the end of the world and it should be grounds for termination. A business should not be sued because someone tripped on their own footing, or slipped in the parking lot, or looked down at someone's chest. I'm a girl and you know what I did back in high-school? I beat the guy up. I won't say it's terrible because I find it somewhat flattering that I'm attractive for sexual pleasure but I'm not going to sue people over it. If it were rape, that would be an entirely different story but I would NEVER involve the workplace or private property owner for such a case. It's terrible to sue people for just looking at you or complimenting this or that. I feel like people just use this as an excuse to stop working and make easy money. I'd also advise to keep an eye on what the law says because you can't just terminate various benefits or whatever. You're better off just terminating the person that sexually harasses someone else. They will keep doing it so just fire them to get it over with it.
The complaints I heard from women in Silicon Valley aren't that they're being sexually harassed, but that they are overworked and have trouble getting promoted.
I know three young women who work in very male-dominated workplaces. One works for a startup in SF, and keeps getting stuck with "receptionist" as an additional duty. She's frustrated by that, but not sexually harassed. Another is a striking blue-eyed redhead who is in very good shape. She projects the personality of a cheerleader. She's a criminal lawyer, and finds it useful to be underestimated. To her, being harassed indicates a weakness of the opposition she can exploit.
The third works in the ocean rescue unit of a coastal fire department, which means going out in high surf, rappelling off cliffs, and driving small watercraft around in tough conditions. Most of the others who do that are male and macho. She comes across as a laid-back surfer (which she is) until challenged. Then she gets very competitive. She once described being hassled by some guy on the street. She was annoyed, but not threatened. Her only question was whether punching the guy out was going to be necessary.
How many people have you encountered for which "the" is disrespectful?
Apparently you don't understand the point. Anyone can be offended by anything. What if such a person were to exist? Would you be expected to cater to them? If not, why? Have you arbitrarily decided that it's less important to not offend them for some reason?
Then, learn to respect the others.
"Get out or conform." There are more options, though. Work to change the laws.
So you can't just dismiss it.
I never said that I could. I just find it amusing how it seems that some people believe that their opinions are facts. The fact of the matter is that your opinions will influence society and laws will perhaps reflect that. That is obvious. But I too have an opinion about all this.
In everything you have two sides, and most often both are stupid
Except that this is a subjective matter.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Hire mature adults who don't feel the need to whine about their delicate feelings like...women?
Yeah, she still wears sandals in the summer some times and you could nit-pick the dress length, but compared to what she was wearing, it really is a vast improvement.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
The guy is putting the responsibility for his marriage on his kids. As in "I stay married because I have kids". Not "because I love my wife", not "because I made a commitment", but "because I have kids".
Notwithstanding the question of whether, if the marriage turns sour, it's better for the kids if the parents go find happiness somewhere else, putting the whole onus of justifying one's marriage with "it's better for the kids" is one hell of an external locus of control.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
You need to stop thinking that sexual harassment is exclusively something that men do to women, or at some future point another man will drag you into court because he didn't appreciate the atmosphere of sexual innuendo that you promoted at work, and he will win.
First, I'm not a manager, which is why it worked IMHO, had it been management it would have felt more "in trouble" than "we're a team, let's keep this a team issue and not get HR involved, 'cause none of us want that"; perception is a powerful tool.
Second, My words here and the words I used with here are vastly different. I don't really remember what I said, but I know I went over it with our collective manager, and tried to be respectful to them both, while pointing out that neither had anything to gain by remaining in the state they were in.
I tried to use respect and dignity with both of them, and to be honest I was harder on the guy, partially because I think it is fairly obvious he was in the wrong, while we've never been super strict with the dress code, but she had gone over the line far enough that it needed to be called out.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Anyone who would say this has probably never been subject to unwelcome comments of a sexual nature. It's really quite upsetting, to say the least.
If some pain in the ass wants to make trouble, nothing short of termination followed by months of expensive litigation will suffice!
The only reason that people without rich parents can buy houses in San Francisco is a successful LAWSUIT! That's why shysters outnumber doctors 3 to 1 every time somebody broke remembers a "repressed memory" about some priest, camp counselor, school teacher, fondling his/her tookis, some incompetent with a five for a nickel PhD in "psychology" will "uncover" all the bad shit that Messrs Shyster, Crooke & Lye, Esq's will figure is worth Millions!
Followed by a snarky lawyer joke.
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Moral of the story in the modern workplace:
Don't talk to your co-workers. I kid you not - this is the only way to be safe these days.
"Did you get your work done today Bob?"
Nod head yes.
"Did you need anything from me before I go?"
Shake head no.
Safe - mostly. Until you are fired because your silence scared your coworkers. Can you win this battle? No. If a coworker is looking for a work-free paycheck through legal action and is part of some protected group you are done for.
End of Line.
What exactly is so adult about ignoring someone who's being offensive? You seriously think being a guy who simmers quietly and has nothing but contempt, and anger towards his coworkers is a good thing? These are people you're going to have to interact with everyday. That mindset will not help you in any way.
Also, there seems to be a belief that the a work environment is somehow sacrosanct and shouldn't be altered. Why?
Unfortunately, considering that most corporations would be considered sociopaths were they to be psychoanalyzed, the possibility that they will do the right thing because it's the right thing is slim-to-none; hence, fear of legal (or rather, financial) repercussion is about the only way to get their attention.
There are two ways to this thinking. The dude asking the question (TFS) is not the company, he's a manager in some company. He's a goddam human being, so he should be able to feel compassion.
Let's not forget that we - in the CS space - are living in an overprivileged area. Specifically, one where a layoff isn't the end of your life, but just a way to update your resume and search for another job, which you will find in a few days or weeks at the maximum. If you're not completely retarded that is. It's not as if our lives were on the line. We can goddam afford to stand up for our values.
Not many populations have been able to say that in the history of humanity. Let's play that card !
Write boring code, not shiny code!
And if they all your coworkers acted this way, you'd still good naturally take the irritations? You won't be offended that the people who work with you can't even show a veneer of respect towards you and not treat you in manner you find offensive?
That's bs you need to make your expectations known to the team without singling anyone out.
love is just extroverted narcissism
And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Anyone who would say this has probably never been subject to unwelcome comments of a sexual nature. It's really quite upsetting, to say the least.
It sounds like he welcomes all comments of a sexual nature. Fair enough. But not all of us do, and for some of us this is quite serious.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Not sexual harrassment, but racism. Former workplace, the QC manager (a black woman) was racially harrassed out of there. She went to a higher job, elsewhere, and has been perfect. New manager brought in from another location, immediately started talking about how it was hard to find good white help. Hired an untrained white person, and trained him and promoted him above all the black employees who had been there. Kept up the comments, even across the radio, despite my warnings not to [he was higher than I]. Eventually, one of them filed a complaint. Said manager then immediately said to his white foreman (in front of me) "tell me you fired him." Then while he was out on administrative leave, the foreman came up with a list of a bunch of "sometime in the past" violations, as evidence of need to fire the guy. At that point, I felt I had to speak up. The HR director said "you did the right thing." The racist manager was fired. Within two months, the complainant was fired. All the wage-earning employees were evicted from the main office. Right after that, I was fired.
Racist companies really suck.
But they knew they could get away with it in the state they are.
I suspect sexist companies also really suck.
Abusive companies really suck.
I don't know where these people are posting from, but come off it -- you are offensive, and really need to change.
Yes I would. Welcome to the live of a man. Men have to deal with it all their lives and we manage it quite well. Try to be offended when children at school decide to give you an offensive nickname and see how the results go for you.
The best way to deal with it is to ignore and prove your worth with results. Bickering is childish and by doing that you prove to be as much unprofessional as the one you are complaining about.
OTOH having meetings to establish a policy before anything actually happens is a bit of an insult to the people already working there. You're basically saying you think they're idiots.
Uh, from the summary, they are acting like idiots.
Especially in some jurisdictions - here in New Zealand, escalating it to firing too fast without the formal disiplinary process will open the company up to unjustified dismissal liablity.
(There's a process; basically an employee gets three written warnings that can only be issued after a formal disiplinary meeting. After that, then one more formal disiplinary meeting the company can terminate; unless it's "serious misconduct" which would be hard pressed to justifiy in this case. Of course, see your lawyer or the Dept of Labour, not an anonymous slashdot commenter!)
But I quite agree; go the informal route first if at all possible; nobody really wants to use the H.R. weapons unless they have no other choice.
This man's coworkers probably just think they're having good clean fun and that they're "keeping it real" in the face of what they feel to be phony soul-tarnishing political correctness.
Well to hell with their "realness" and their "feelings". Their attitude is pathetic.
However, it's hard to really walk in another's shoes sometimes.
Which is why the far easier route of adhering to a accepted standard of maturity and professionalism is the way to go. Don't harass people. Don't have your "fun" at the expense of someone else's ability to their job without unwanted and needless distraction.
I generally agree with you but I want to approach the other side of this coin. Honestly, if I got bent out of shape and wanted to punish or othewise harm (and let's be clear, destroying someone's career is definitely "harm") someone merely for saying something I didn't like, when I knew it was not a personal attack aimed at me, well, at that point I would stop considering myself a mature adult. That's partly because I truly do believe in free speech, as a principle and not just as a legal concept, and partly because I don't consider emotionally volatile, easily offended people to be actual adults.
Maturity works both ways. Hellfire, brimstone, and a ruthless vindictiveness for the slightest thing you don't like isn't terribly mature either. Now if you're talking about actual harassment with malicious intent, by all means, fire their ass. The key there is malice. But if I happen to overhear something R-rated that has nothing to do with me and isn't intended against me, I'm happy to let that go. That's what I would want them to do if the roles were ever reversed.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Maybe this is just because I'm Irish, and we're all whipped mammy's boys, but anyone here being sexist had best be prepared to defend themselves from the verbal (or possibly physical) lashing any real woman will bestow upon them.
If you refer you yourself and your peers as sexist and crude, I'd say you probably ARE over any line that counts. (Namely the one that's going to get you sued (and lose badly), and/or get you fired.)
I'm not an expert, but I think those cutesy games will just deepen any hole your IT staff might dig for your company.
Hire a professional HR person or a temporary HR consultant versed in these issues. It is one of the things they are good for.
Have that person hold a class for the company, teach the laws to the employees, document that the classes were taken and have that person make a policy to keep on file.
The whole idea is to get ready in case anyone sues. You want proof that the employees involved were educated so it is their problem instead of the company's
How many people have you encountered for which "the" is disrespectful?
Apparently you don't understand the point. Anyone can be offended by anything. What if such a person were to exist? Would you be expected to cater to them? If not, why? Have you arbitrarily decided that it's less important to not offend them for some reason?
Well, no, you don't seem to understand my point here (and not THE point as you put it). No one on the streets is offended by the word "the". Give at least some credit to humankind. To push your point further, people that are offended by such mundane things are living in psychiatric hospitals so you don't have to cater to them. You're not expected to. You forgot my last sentence that was the most important of my post: When there are two sides to an issue, often both are wrong. Some middle ground is often the way to go.
So here: No, you are not expected to cater to people that find "the" offensive. Because there's 3 of them in the US. But yes, you are expected to cater to people that find "I want to rape you" offensive. Because there's 200 million of them in the US. Do you get it now?
Then, learn to respect the others.
"Get out or conform." There are more options, though. Work to change the laws.
I wasn't talking about laws at all. What is your point?
So you can't just dismiss it.
I never said that I could. I just find it amusing how it seems that some people believe that their opinions are facts. The fact of the matter is that your opinions will influence society and laws will perhaps reflect that. That is obvious. But I too have an opinion about all this.
You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am. In all fairness, you seem to view your opinions just as factual as I seem to consider mine. Judging by your words. Of course, this has nothing to do with "respect" which it what this is all about.
In everything you have two sides, and most often both are stupid
Except that this is a subjective matter.
Not really, it isn't. Everything in life is about making compromises. Is Arsenic a poison? It depends. It depends how much you ingest. Is my sentence offensive? It depends. It depends to whom you're saying it. Is it a beautiful day? It depends. It depends on yesterday.
The only fact is that everything is an opinion and that nothing is a fact. And everything is about how much you want of it.
Another fact is that Americans always tend to make two sides on any incoming issue. By doing so, they all miss the real answer which is somewhere in the middle.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
As you grow you understand you can't always have your way. Actually you can seldom have it. That is why it is an adult decision to just accept and ignore it when you don't, unless it is something so grave and important that demands action. Bickering does not classify.
Your problem is that you seem to think that anyone that makes remarks that offend you hate you, and not the other way around. People more often then not do not need to feel anger or contempt to make remarks that offend other people, especially in these oversensitive days, and even if they do it is a fallacy to relate their feelings and remarks with the quality of his work. Many of the greatest minds of our History were intractable human beings, and produced some of the greatest achievements of mankind.
Last but not least, a productive work environment should not be altered unless there is a very good motive to do so, and avoiding hurting the feelings of an oversensitive childish person is not reason enough to do disrupt the habits of several others.
Added to some good ideas, above, you might try the following:
Tell each male employee that they shouldn't say/do anything to a female co-worker that they wouldn't say/do to their sister.
If you wouldn't proposition/pinch/insinuate/whatever toward your sister (and you better not...) then you shouldn't do so toward a female co-worker. This won't work with all male employees (i.e. those without sisters, or with dirty-mouthed family relationships), but it should provide a decent "baseline" for some of them--and give some good hints to those who are truly clueless about how not to be a jerk toward female co-workers.
Note that this isn't a complete solution, by any means; it's just a helpful "hint."
Unfortunately, considering that most corporations would be considered sociopaths were they to be psychoanalyzed, the possibility that they will do the right thing because it's the right thing is slim-to-none; hence, fear of legal (or rather, financial) repercussion is about the only way to get their attention.
There are two ways to this thinking. The dude asking the question (TFS) is not the company, he's a manager in some company. He's a goddam human being, so he should be able to feel compassion.
I think, perhaps, we've found the root of this problem: sociopaths being promoted to management positions.
As for the fix, that is beyond me...
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
And you won't see ever ever EVER a man complaining about this if and when it happens.
Really? Even though it comes off as rude and completely unprofessional? I beg to differ.
Finding God in a Dog
I would just screw the hell out of the ugly hag boss and post a video of the encounter online someplace so the other female coworkers can have proof of the size of which they are speculating.
you've misread the statement. the focus is on the commitment. the poster is putting the importance of *his end* of the marriage into the context of its importance for the kids.
Is it that difficult?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
More paid for propaganda on slashdot this site has become a mainstream turd on the net that's turning moldy.
I have never had any problems working with / around females. I don't grab their tits, I don't fondle their thighs. ... come in pants tomorrow.
I don't ask them if they want to fuck and I have frankly not seen or even heard of any man doing that where
I've worked. Where I"m at about half of the employees are women, even the engineers. If they choose to come in
more revealingly dressed I will look, I wont not drool or stare and rub my crotch and I wont get on my knees and crawl under her desk
but I will certainly have a look, after all that was the idea behind getting dressed in that short skirt this morning wasn't it?
If it wasn't, well
This sexual harassment business is just more social engineering bullshit that is put out there to make men and women
uncomfortable interacting. She gets her head filled with shit like if I say "We're screwed!" I'm saying I want to screw
her. Fuck these social engineering assholes and the industry they built around this, it's them who have a screw loose.
And fuck you slashdot for running this, you're a bunch of whores.
What century is this?
Are you a character on Mad Men? Did you seriously propose a silly tie or a swear jar for people on your team who sexually harass a female colleague?
Americans are so sexually retarded. I cannot believe that an article like this would be posted to (well what used to be) a mainstream news site as anything other than insight into a bygone era.
Imagine if you posted the same question, but in reference to a colleague of a different race. That is how you sound to me, right now, with this question.
Fuck you. Respect women.
No one on the streets is offended by the word "the".
Again, it absolutely does not matter to me. The fact that someone is offended does not mean you need to cater to them. I just used that example to demonstrate a point.
people that are offended by such mundane things are living in psychiatric hospitals so you don't have to cater to them.
Exactly my point. These people are deemed "unhealthy" and the things they're offended by are deemed "mundane." You probably feel perfectly free to cause offense to them if you happen to meet them (and I would too), but no one can do the same to you.
When there are two sides to an issue, often both are wrong.
I did not miss that; I just found it absurd. The fact that you deem something to be 'extreme' does not mean that it's wrong, and it does not mean that it's more likely to be wrong.
I wasn't talking about laws at all. What is your point?
The ones that allow you to get sued into oblivion.
In all fairness, you seem to view your opinions just as factual
Factual in what way? They're not. I'm just speaking of how I think things "should" be.
Not really, it isn't.
How is speaking of what someone "should" do not subjective?
Everything in life is about making compromises.
Irrelevant to whether or not it's subjective.
By doing so, they all miss the real answer which is somewhere in the middle.
Argument to moderation.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Three things:
1. Do some research about how much money plaintiffs actually get for workplace discrimination. It is virtually never millions, and typically only in the tens of thousands if punitive damages are available -- and the point of those are not to compensate people as you seem to think, but to serve (among other things) as a deterrent.
2. Workplace discrimination is a civil, not criminal matter. Nobody is going to get a criminal record or have their "lives ruined" in these suits.
3. You seem to think there is no space between being "protected like a flower" and "anything goes." But of course this is stupid. An example of one such intermediate position is to allow a little casual ribbing, but not so much harassment that it makes for a hostile work environment. And, for the record, men can also file workplace discrimination claims, though these are clearly less common. This probably is partially because most workplaces are male-dominated and, thus, can generate a greater pervasive feeling of gender-biased hostility towards women than men, partially because men are simply more likely to make "remarks" towards women than the other way around, and yes, maybe in part because women are more likely to perceive an environment as hostile than men.
caritj.org
What benefit is being enjoyed, and by whom? What costs are created?
Are you being serious here? The one engaging in sexually offensive is enjoying the benefit of saying things that they find amusing or empowering while others provide positive feedback for those words. The person at the butt end is paying a price through their demoralized person who is now less effective than they otherwise would be and is experiencing a drain on the achievements reflected in their resume.
We all have a responsibility, if not a legal one, to positively promote society. However, unlike individuals, companies only exist at the whims of government. So we hold companies to a slightly higher standard through force of law.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
That's because we already know it's not appropriate to call people like you, retarded. We now say slow.
nice.
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
Women in a women only group do lots of innuendo and such but it is only when there is a man around who does it that it becomes sexual harassment. This is political correctness run mad and sexual harassment of men. If women want to work in mixed sex groups then they need to get over this double standard they have. Note that not all women are this way - it only takes a few rotten ones to spoil it for everyone.
Unless you are 40+ years old , where you will be on unemployment for 50+ weeks.....
New Economic Perspectives
If you think people don't get their lives ruined over sexual harassment ALLEGATIONS (forget actual harassment), you're clearly living in a fantasy world.
We're not children. We have legal and cultural institutions that says we don't have to deal with such shit in the work place. And while children of both genders may have to bow to the decisions of the group (or move), even children are told they should confront an annoying person or a bully and not just tolerate the bullshit. It's no different for adults.
What will proving your worth get you? You're still the one that's getting verbally slighted by the group. You'll soothe your annoyance towards with the group by reminding yourself you're the bestest of the bunch? You'll wait out for the chance of getting promoted and lording over the group? Neither is healthy if you don't like your cowokers. Grow a spine and go through channels if it turns out you have the moral and legal right to do so.
The argument seems to be falling into two categories:
1. Fuck you, don't tell me what to do. Fuck bitches if they can't handle me looking at their tits.
2. Sensible human beings.
I've made complaints to HR about the boys club environment at places, about the gay jokes, about the racist jokes, about the whole stream of things. I'm not doing it because their shitty behaviour is directed at me; I did it because it's a shitty environment to be in. It's shitty because sometimes, people that are hurt by it, that do feel persecuted by it, that do feel like they're being treated as second class, don't say anything and they suffer in the workplace. Other times, people do say shit and are accused of being overly-sensitive or of over-reacting. It's lose lose, and it makes for a toxic workplace.
Are you so self-centred that you honestly believe that you being able to make a stupid joke is a more important thing than taking minor steps to make sure you're not making someone feel shitty about themselves? Do you really need to make comments based on gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation? What are you gaining out of that?
The thing about sexism is that it's institutionalized, it's everywhere, and it does have a negative impact on people; men and women. Debasing people by acting like all they are is their physical appearance sucks. We as fat, pimple faced, social outcasts should get that; being shit on for what you are sucks, it's not fun, it's not a good thing to be surrounded by, and it doesn't come down to you manning-up. It comes down to people not being shitty to each other, why is that so fucking hard?
Keep on knockin'
https://robbiecrash.me
The problem stems from the definition of "harassing". It's literally anything that the perceiver finds offensive.
Not really. It is merely anything the policy creator believes will run afoul of existing law and precedent. I am pretty sure I could live the rest of a very fulfilling life without intentionally or inadvertently offending a co-worker in a way that would get me or my employer sued.
Moreover, a sincere apology goes a long way. Naturally, that is tricky when the offense was intentional. But if you generally conduct yourself in a decent manner, people will forgive the occasional slip-up.
Of course, there are unreasonable and/or malevolent people who will abuse any system. There is no defense against this behavior other than, again, establishing a reputation for being a decent person.
You'd classify telling your co-woker/boss that certain people are being offensive as "bickering?" I said nothing about arguing with people, and there usually isn't any bickering which I agree would be counter productive. First you tell ask your coworker to stop. If that doesn't work, you complain to a higher up. If the complaint is valid according to policy or the law, the offending party is simply told to stop. That's how adults deal with this. Being quiet is no different than a child tolerating a bully who thinks it's all good fun.
I'm not saying people who say things that are irritating (and goes against harassment policies) are automatically hateful. I'm saying if they consider a need to be crude, not PC, and in some cases actually hateful, to be vital to their workplace happiness, then yea they are being disrespectful dicks, and not all that mature to boot.
I suppose this is the main point of contention. You think we should tolerate all (and logically be able to make) any comments regardless of race, gender, life experiences, etc. I think when you're dealing with people from all walks of life you should act as politely as possible until you get to know them better cause not everyone thinks like you, and nothing says your way is objectively right.
As for the great thinkers who were also assholes, they were able to avoid dealing with social norms because they proved themselves with their abilities. Such people are exceptions, and not worth considering when trying to make millions of people productive all of whom have different genders, races, religions, sexualities, etc.
I'd argue acting like a bunch of stereotypes from MTV is the sign of childishness.
"why should a group/team that has been working for ages, all of a sudden have to stop and change and stifle themselves just because a woman is joining the group?"
Because that team is missing out on 50% of the potential talent pool.
Because making people feel threatened or excluded is wrong.
Pick one.
If you want to interact with other human beings, start by respecting them.
"Respect" is such a subjective term. Using the word "the" might be deemed to be disrespectful by one person who happens to take offense to it.
Such a person would have shunned society long before he or she ended up being your coworker. Or moved to a non-English speaking country.
Cartoonish edge-cases notwithstanding, it is perfectly easy to get along in the workplace without offending people.
Sure, you can get fired from a job over it, and they probably have difficulty finding another soon thereafter. But life ruined? Sounds like hyperbole to me. Got any evidence?
caritj.org
The only thing that will be effective is for the company to have a clear policy, as the law requires, and a clear enforcement mechanism. The only way to do that is with the assistance of a qualified labor attorney local to you. If you haven't done this already, whoever runs your company is insane, and your company is doomed. If you have, then keep with it.
The only enforcement mechanism that works is the same as any other kind of behavior that messes up the work place: counseling, warning, and termination. If you fire the first asshole who gets out of line, the rest will know there are consequences. If you lose the rest of the team, you're rid of people who value their childish behavior more than their jobs, or your job. If that hurts your company ,see above about insanity and doom.
That's great, but not really related to my point.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
You say he's "sent a message" to a female team member that the dress code is there to marshall her sexuality - when actually, he's just trying to keep her from sending a message that says "fuck me" to everything within 50 miles that has a penis (and maybe a lot of things that don't).
Why can't she be saying, "I don't mind if you take a look as long as you are discreet." Most reasonable people don't assume that everything in the world that is attractive to them for whatever reason was specifically designed to elicit and overt response. Its called impulse control -- catch it (at the next appropriate juncture).
Perfume/cologne IS offensive in close quarters offices. The Director of Sales in my last company would spray his office with it so that 'his' smell permeated the dept. It was a pretty sick display of marking his territory. Eventually HR told him to cut it out or walk. Great salesman, shitty human being.
Good-bye
Nothing wrong with that most of the time - work isn't the place for it though, IMHO. It's distracting, at best. Don't misunderstand me, though - I'm not trying to find excuses for the guy in the scenario mentioned - he was undoubtedly in the wrong as well.
Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
I wonder what Emily would think if she knew how obsessed you were with this poor woman's attire?
The problem is that everything you define as unacceptable is subjective, including the laws regarding this matter. Subjective enough to make the workplace a minefield. What is "crude"? What is bad tasted? What is acceptable? What is offensive?
And no, those thinkers were not the exception. There is no clear relation between social behavior and productivity, especially in IT, were a great number of employees are highly capable and socially inept.
Yes, you should be able to tolerate crude jokes and "offensive" remarks your colleagues and even answering in kind without suing or being sued by them. If you cannot I will weight your value in my team against the trouble your over sensitivity brings.
If I want any work done in a timely and efficient fashion the only way is to create an environment were my employees can speak freely and are not fearful of being prosecuted all the time. Police states are not conducive to productivity. Especially in IT, if such an environment is not achievable in US I will contract elsewhere. Simple as that.
I'd argue not being able to adapt to the environment childishness. If you enter in a team you better be able to fit or to be so good that will be worth the trouble you are bringing.
I think you've been unfairly tagged on the flamebait item...I'm conservative, Texan, and heavily armed. I think it's true, and it spills over unconsciously into a situations where, of course, no one is armed.
There's a great old Bruce Lee quote (probably original with him): respect to superiors is duty, to equals courtesy, to lessors, nobility, and to all - CAUTION.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
>> if the marriage turns sour, it's better for the kids if the parents go find happiness somewhere else
Assumes facts not in evidence.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
Elaborate. Please. No weasel words allowed.
I have a responsibility to follow the law, that's it. Take your so-called social construct and shove it up your self-righteous ass.
WTF? I don't know how you have your comments filtered, but I'm seeing a very strong contingent of pro-harassment people here. There's one just two comments up from here, by "Ash-Fox". Glancing farther up, I see more pro-harassment and pro-misogyny posters: "cheekyjohnson", "lionchild", and especially "cayenne8", along with a bunch of anonymous cowards.
They may be a minority, but this is definitely not "unanimous" from where I'm sitting.
I think the idea that innocent polite people are at risk of getting caught up in sexual harassment suits is way overblown. Are there some crazy cases out there? Sure, but it's like getting hit by lightening - generally you don't have to worry about it. The examples you give are unlikely in the extreme. Whoever told you that avoiding sexual harassment charges is like walking through a minefield either doesn't know what they're talking about or is one of the jerks that makes sexual harassment laws necessary.
For anyone who wants to know where the line is, here's a good start: don't say anything to a female co-worker that you wouldn't want a guy to say to your mother.
There. Was that really that hard?
You're right, the welfare of employees should be the primary reason, but expecting people (esp. the sociopaths in management) to do the right thing just because it's right is futile.
Apparently you are indeed a child. You never learned to deal with your feelings. What is the big problem of being verbally slighted? Anyone can say anything they wish to me, it is irrelevant. If I don't like what the person is saying I can just ignore him.
If the person in question is a real bully that has a problem with you which is not exactly common in the workplace then there is a problem. But confronting a bully is exactly what you don't want to do. You want other people, your boss, the legal system, your daddy or anyone but you to do the job for you. If you have a problem with someone deal with it yourself.
Much more common are fleeting remarks and jokes that are considered offensive by the listener and end in lawsuits, which is clearly insane and tends to disrupt the workplace just because someone cannot deal with her own feelings.
and yet countless gay people's lives *are*, in part because they're expected to just smile and deal with it
Thats not really a good excuse. If they said something about it and let people know how they felt, and then it continued, that would be grounds for a harrassment complaint. Everybody slags other people. The point of it is for humour's sake, not for being a deliberately viscious cunt. We all make jokes about things that will hurt other peoples feelings, because they are funny jokes and help us get through the day. Most of us try to make jokes we think will not hurt the feeling of those listening to us, or sometimes deliberately crafted at those in earshot in the knowledge that even being the butt of the joke, they will laugh as well. If someone hides some aspect of their personality and chooses to later sue based on jokes I made about that how am I supposed to respond? I can imagine things I would kick peoples teeth in for if they said them about my mother. I might say those very same things myself about my mother in a joking fashion.
People can demand respect all they want, but it is a two-way street. Everyone makes jokes about things, and everyone excludes from jokes those present they do not wish to insult. If you want not to be insulted by the things I say, don't insult me by lying to me about who you are. If you are not comfortable with being yourself in my presence, you should not be in my presence. Whether that means you have to go or I have to go can be decided by the gods of HR, but I for one am not going to live my life trying to second guess those listening to anything I say.
There is no room for this in the workplace.
Bullshit. From what I've seen of humans, they almost always either defend the bully, or look the other way. Things have to get really, really ridiculous before they stand up for the victim, and then you're talking courts, Nuremburg trials, etc.
Obviously, chimps are far more advanced than humans.
I guess hiring functional humans is out of the question.
Oh for the love of... How about you play it safe and only talk about work maybe? Later, if you want, slowly push the envelope as you get to know your female coworker(s)? And of course, don't make any comments that could tie into race, gender, the usual crap.
Incidentally, people DON'T automatically sue when they're harassed. The courts demand some short of proof, and that actually involves first going to the boss and/or human resources and complaining.
And once again, I'd argue clinging to a mindset best left in High School to be even more childish. The group WILL have to learn to act professional sooner or later, so make them act like they're actually in a workplace and yea the vast majority will fit right in.
Have things changed? I interned at a military contractor (which built aircraft carriers) when I was in college; there was classified material handled there, but they have absolutely zero armed security. Of course, this was back in the 90s, when things hadn't all gone to shit like now.
You know how I know that ypu don't know any modern feminists?
You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are.
-- Colonel Adolphus Busch
Yea, I mentioned talking to your boss/HR if you have a problem with a coworker.
You honestly can't understand why it's bad when people ignore trivial requests to be polite? You think there a pressing need for people to say whatever they want to people up to and including racial and gender slurs? Sigh... fine I don't think there's anything more I can say to convince you.
You need an actual policy, not a set of jokes or you will be sued and all things considered justifiably so. The company *needs* to abide by the law or you will have massive problems sooner or later; if you aren't taking the spirit of it seriously you will wind up with a toxic mess. (and if you are in charge of the team and this is how you prep, you'll probably get sacked)
In addition to an actual formal HR policy, that is enforced, sit down with your team and talk to them. Remind them that at work they need to act like civilized professionals and that by doing so they make a better environment for everyone in the group. People who are being polite don't make off-color jokes or comments around people who they don't know well enough to know their boundaries. Roughly speaking, if your team acts like normal civilized people no one is likely to hit sensitive spots. When you get to know someone you get an idea of where their boundaries are. (but really come on it is work, save it for your own time)
The other issue is that this is only coming up now that there is a woman coming in. Religious belief, race, veteran status, age, disability, and national origin are all protected classes (sexual orientation isn't unfortunately, but I'd recommend you treat it as such). 'Joe' may not be actively complaining about the n-word jokes but may be on monster looking for a different job; 'Frank' may be seething mad about the teasing he's getting about his religion and so on and so forth.
If you tell your team 'hey there is a girl joining the group, watch what you say so we don't get sued' you will be making an adversarial environment, she's going to smell it, and you'll be dividing up your team from the get go.
I am assuming you are in the United States, not a clue about how things are elsewhere.
Your point is not relevant to the reality of harassment policies. There are well defined rules for what is permissible, and no reasonable, mature person would ever find them an undue imposition on their personality or ability to work effectively.
At the same time, there are plenty of things that a person could, theoretically, be offended by, and their employer could tell them to go pound rocks.
So there is one person who is getting positive feedback from the rest of their team (presumably improving the work environment for almost everyone) and one person who doesn't feel as effective as they could be? Why doesn't the person who feels ineffective find another job?
No matter how many laws we create the underlying feelings that lead to sexually offensive (or otherwise insensitive) language or acts will not go away. By outlawing offensive statements and actions in the workplace you are sanctioning discrimination against people who enjoy making or hearing those type of things. If a the majority of people at a particular employer enjoy that type of humor why would we restrict it? No one is forced to work anywhere these days, they always have the choice to find employment at a firm that is more in line with their character.
If a non-offensive workplace is the ideal state most workplaces will move towards being non-offensive on their own.
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
Wow - I'm not a neanderthal, and I'm looking for work. Give me a call.
The problem isn't that people can't refrain themselves from saying 'sexually harassing things,' the problem is that there's no real standard for what sexual harassment is. Traditionally, it's defined as "unwanted sexual contact or speech" or something similar.
The biggest problem with that is it's subjective. Too often some gung-ho feminists claim sexual harassment because they were complimented. Is it any surprise that people turn to internet dating sites at the high volume they do these days, when flirting has basically become illegal?
And the most ironic thing is that, when it comes to courting women, men are told from all angles of society that they should "take chances," and "let her know how you feel," and "make her feel wanted." Most women don't want to be courted in a Victorian fashion, but a small but vocal minority of women who equate flirting with sexual harassment make it so men are afraid to court women they're interested in and the non-bra-burning women are left feeling unwanted.
The fact that someone sees a need to preempt sexual harassment because of an incoming female co-worker is just sad. When will we Americans get over our Puritanical heritage?
No, I don't "understand" why having your requests ignored is bad, and yes I defend the right to express yourself in any way you see fit, as long as it does not become harassment, which means a person verbally insulting you directly and aggressively at a daily basis, without provocation, for example. In this last case it may even be a problem for your boss to solve, but certainly not for the legal system.
Douchebaggery will not be tolerated. Douchey comments will be taken as a resignation, effective immediately.
I'll take a wild guess - you are one and disagree with what I said? Because I have read and listened to a number of them, and I have paid attention to general social trends, which are fully visible in these very comments; both of which led me to the conclusions I outlined. If you have a problem with what I said, feel free to argue against it. Until then, your post is basically just the fallacy of irrelevant conclusion.
Great Intellect...
So, if someone were to say my computer is as annoying as a chink today (didn't hear that here but in South Korea, but that's another topic), it's ok so long as the person is not referring to a specific coworker? For a grayer example, what if the person is from a rather conservative background should they have to tolerate stereotypical High School antics and off color jokes especially when societal norms say otherwise? I'm not sure why you think productivity would be shot to hell if workers are told to keep their language PG.
Either way, I wouldn't worry too much about lawsuits in both cases. Typically someone will complain to the relevant person/group and the first case would be settled with a reprimand or firing. The second will probably merit no more than a stern reminder of company policies unless it keeps happening.
Yes, it is ok. It is also ok someone saying "annoying as a girl", or "dumb as a white male". If you don't think the joke is funny, ignore it. It is your problem, not theirs.
what I get from that is "When speaking, I am militantly unaware of my audience at all times."
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
(or in more extreme cases whether you agree to sleep with her).
Think about how you'd really truly react in that kind of scenario,
Insufficient information.
Is she hot?
paintball
Work is not supposed to be about fun and hyjinks, it is place where you are supposed to cultivate and practice your professional focus. It's about professional self respect, respect for your workplace and respect for your colleagues.
I once worked in a country where work culture is that lines between work and life are very very blurred. Office romance and sexualisation of the workplace was common and accepted as normal. Being the foreigner, got hit on by women and gay men all the freaking time. Worst work environment ever. I know sounds ace, initially it was quite flattering, but it got very tiresome very quickly. Heading off the work, I just want to focus on how to squeeze more ms out of a DB query, but know at some point during the day I am going to get sexually harrassed. Sex and romance is something you pursue outside of work.
I get sexually harassed by women all the time, (I am male, 28)
I have worked in several industries, and have studied towards a physics degree,
some women consider it a crime not be interested in them,
I have refused offers for sex regularly,
and have left jobs, because women have tried to force themselves on me.
POST A.C. because women hate men who reject offers for sex.
Am I correct in assuming you believe casual forms of racism/sexism/whatever should be tolerated? Possibly because you (as a possible white male) have to tolerate a bunch of shit that's arguably sexist/racist you think the others should too?
My workplace has a simple solution in place: it consists of respect and maturity. Grow up.
Your insanity is proven by this gem:
... don't make any comments that could tie into race, gender, the usual crap
Why should people go out of their way to accommodate to your sensibilities? You are the reason of the disruption, not the guys who worked together for years, making jokes and having fun until you came and decided to dictate what they can or not say.
In the end the only thing you will accomplish with this excessive bickering, is getting unemployed and giving a bad reputation to your gender, race, religion, etc, because most likely than not you are not worth the trouble when there are people who can do your job just as well as you do, are not overly sensitive like you, and unlike you fit into the group.
And even if you succeed in making laws that force people into complying with your standards employers will end outsourcing as much as they can to avoid unnecessary litigations.
"It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse."
The answer isn't a game. I mean unless you like lawsuits.
1. Mandatory sexual harassment training for every employee. (normally companies just give it to managers, but you can save yourself a lot of trouble covering the whole team at once).
2. Write up anyone who violates your company's sexual harassment policy.
3. If you don't have a policy, consult a lawyer that specializes in labor law.
4. Fire anyone who refuses to take the training, or is written up. After you fire a few of your 10 IT guys, the rest will fall in line.
If women wanted to deal with little boys, they would have stayed home and raised children rather than going to work an IT job.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
"I don't need to examine the evidence to know: there is no problem, because I happen to know that if there were a problem it would solve itself."
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
seriously?! We are in the year of 2012, anyone who has this type of attitude towards women in the work place should be fired. that being said most techie types are pretty open minded about who they work with - as long as they can hold their own
I would say dont project an environment of harassment ( the tone is set at the top)
Should there be a need then make it known that there will possibly not be a second chance
I have a very low tolerance for this type of attitude in the work place. It's barbaric and counter productive
no matter how good it is, it is human nature always wants to make things better
Sounds like two antisemites having a good laugh.
Exactly. Hire a diversity consultant to tell everyone how oppressed women are and that heterosexual white cismen were created by the Devil on the seventh day when the Lord's back was turned.
A gender balanced workplace is usually more effective anyway.
I defend complete freedom of speech no matter what. It is easy to defend freedom of speech when people are saying things you like or are neutral about. It is a lot harder when you have to tolerate things you find wrong or offensive. I do believe any kind of communication should be at the very least tolerated.
To express any idea, however much unlikable it may be, should never be forbidden.
Why not have an HR professional come in and give talks on appropriate office behaviour?
Yes, sexual harassment is one possibility. But there are others...like bullying in the workplace and how to identify it.
If your IT department has ten (10) people the company should have its own lawyer (in house counsel). I would recommend setting up a meeting with them and outlying your concerns. Believe it or not legal teams can do a lot more for you when brought in early.
My company hires a lot of hot college student co-op ass to work in sales and marketing. Obviously, hot, young women make the best sales people, especially when the buyers are all 50-year old men.
The result is that the 50-year-old engineers in our office end up chasing the hot, young ass around the office all the time. It's a problem, but we deal with it with periodic summary firings.
So far we've been lawsuit free, but probably only because they're young enough that they haven't figured out how to game the lawsuit system for large sums of cash (yet).
I am commenting for the first time in years to say.... Huh?!
If you are the leader of the team, you set the expectations and the tone for everyone else. Your belief that bad behavior is "guaranteed" dooms your effort to control it. You must make it clear to yourself that nothing inappropriate must be said or done, then make it clear to your team that infractions will not be tolerated. The expectation should be that no inappropriate behavior occurs, period.
Others have already told to you why your attitude will get you sued and that the behavior you describe is immature and unprofessional. Let me just add one more thing: miscommunication is an inevitable consequence of human interaction. By sanctioning any borderline behavior not only are you increasing the risk of someone reacting negatively, but you are leaving yourself without any way to reassure anyone that what happened WAS just a misunderstanding rather than evidence of a hostile work environment.
That being said, I have worked for, with, and managed people of both genders and many backgrounds. Not once did I encounter an environment where inappropriate behavior was exhibited towards anyone. Proper professional behavior should be a given, not an impossible goal to work towards. Are you sure your team has a problem? Or are you seeing your coworkers through your own lense?
Good luck, I think you are going to need lots of it.
http://ed.markovich.googlepages.com
How about hold off on the suggestive jokes for a couple of months until you get to know the person and know if they mind that kind of joke? I personally don't mind such jokes as long as they're not personal or nasty, but it really depends on both the person delivering the joke and the recipient.
No way to figure this one out until you find out how sensitive she is to geek male stupidity.
If she's sensitive about anything like offensive language or bad jokes, she'll probably want you to report everything formally.
On the opposite end she could be a geek girl herself and know even "better" jokes than the guys.
Most likely somewhere in the middle.
The problem is, without knowing her personality, your only safe route is to handle it by the letter of the law, case law and company policy. And even knowing her personality, if you make minor offenses subject to informal punishment you are basically saying "yes these are offenses, but we elected not to follow the company rules for reporting this type of offense." That sounds like something that can get you fired or reprimanded just as severely as if you made an offensive remark yourself.
We are the 198 proof..
I worked at Apple as a contractor and as an employee for thirteen years, and it was--hands-down--THE BEST at administering diversity. And I say that as one of the few black people who worked there. The top-to-bottom attitude that over-arched everything was that if you're not thinking about our customers, you aren't doing your job. Management decided that it wanted a diverse, welcoming, vibrant workplace and put policies in place that made the goal attainable. If you were there, it was because you had something to contribute and sexuality, gender, race, religion, and physical or emotional challenges were secondary to your ability to get the job done the way Apple's customers expected it to be done. The policy was enforced strictly. Orientation and performance review targets reinforced the culture. As with the secrecy policy after Steve Jobs's return, all an employee had to do was stick with the guidelines, and they could expect an exciting, fulfilling experience.
That's not to say that things at Apple were perfect. One manager decided to release a pictorial chart of his organization. His diversity problems were apparent to everyone but him. Workplace romances are not unheard of. Still, the things I learned from the experience of working at Apple have stood me in good stead.
Your co-worker as a fellow human being ALWAYS comes first;
If you're thinking about anything other than doing your job while you're at work, you might be setting yourself up for a fall;
Don't do anything that might distract your co-workers from achieving their goals and objectives.
"We have legal and cultural institutions that says we don't have to deal with such shit in the work place."
That doesn't mean they're positive. We had legal and cultural institutions that were pro-slavery and which prevented women from voting. We have legal and cultural institutions that will engage to ruin your life if you smoke a weed or urinate on a tree or take a nude photo of yourself in your teens, just to mention a few. That something has become expressed in our culture - or worse, our legal system - in no way validates it as worthy of being there. We know this.
Directly on point, legal and cultural institutions that treat people's verbal expressions of their sexual natures as if they were exercises of evil strike me as the failure of several generations in a row to create and "own" a healthy sexual dynamic.
I look around today and I see a rising homogeneity that is expressed in sloppy, sexually neuter clothing styles; habitual permanent defacement of people's bodies with tattoos; little evidence of a sense of style, grace or even any skill at flirting; a prickly, defensive sensitivity that serves no one in the end (other than lawyers and activists); an intentional (and outright stupid, really) move away from the sexual plumage, diversity and "acting out" that nature has put on display all around us.
I am really glad I'm so old as to no longer have any personal interest in the whole thing; I'm sure many readers will blindly dismiss what I have to say as an out of touch old person, but speaking honestly, I feel really sorry for the lot of you. I think you've gone a great distance down a very self-destructive road.
For some folks, "That's what she said" jokes are offensive.
Bottom line: be damn careful to know your audience if you're going to say anything regarding gender, race or religion, in general or about an individual. The person who reports you may not even be part of the group that was the target of your stupidity.
I once started a comment about "too many chiefs" being on a project in a meeting with a Native American in the room before my brain caught up with my mouth, and I made damn sure I apologized to him the same day, just on the off chance.
On the downside, I now find it uncomfortable to watch "Blazing Saddles".
We are the 198 proof..
The guy who simmers quietly is a lot more likely to go on a shooting rampage in response to the idiocy around him than the guy who files a complaint. Be careful what you wish for.
We are the 198 proof..
On the other hand it is quite easy to find non-work topics for chat that don't involve sex, religion or race. Politics for example. No one gets offended by that, right?
Or try sports. Maybe you're a Yankee fan and your co-worker is a Red Sox fan!
And even if they do get offended, the good news is political or sports harassment isn't prohibited by law, so if you feel the need to slight or bully your libtard or reactionary co-worker, go for it. Be careful of those corporate policies, though. They can bite you in the ass.
Informal survey: How many here were offended/not offended by that phrase?
We are the 198 proof..
While this deserves a downmod, it has a shred of truth. In the various workplaces I have worked(yes anecdotal but it seems to correlate to others experiences) men are far more likely to adapt to the situation than women are. Women come into a situation and expect the situation to adapt to THEM and will actively work to make it that way. It happens from everything to the bathrooms magically being cleaner even if said woman does none of the cleaning and certain words that may have been tossed around previously no longer seeming to be part of anyone's vocabulary.
There are of course numerous women that are exceptions to the rule, but I've found probably 70%+ of women attempt to force the environment to adapt to them. If the environment refuses to adapt or has too much inertia to do so quickly enough to suit them they leave. This is also demonstrated in the fact that women initiate divorces far more often and far far more often describe differences as irreconcilable, even when there is no infidelity etc involved.
Women get a buy from this burden they place on others simply because they are women, a man who does the same thing(which while much rarer I have seen) is most often ostracized and/or forced out of the workplace/fired unless they've been hired in a position of high authority.
One of my clients has an office with 3 guys, one of whom is the owner, and two women working in it. Both the women and men can throw around comments like this, and there's never any offense taken, because they know it's said in jest, rather than anything serious. One of the guys gets comments about the FedEx guy hitting on him, and one of the women gets comments about sending dirty MSNs to someone, and everybody can laugh about it, including the target of the comments.
Sure, sometimes you get a jerk that makes comments that they're serious about, but that person wouldn't last long in this company. In fact, every job interview they've ever done involves making sure that the potential employee has a good sense of humour about things like this.
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
They are good at their jobs, none of this crap about getting away with less because they're women. They can give better than they take, don't try a wry comment with innuendo unless you want it thrown back in your face with the whole office laughing. Nobody guy would think of genuinely sexually harassing them since they're equal members of the gang.
Unfortunately it's hard to weed out the not-cool chicks during interviews.
Even further -- I sincerely doubt that you have, or will ever have, a female companion.
As an actual woman in tech, I'd say spend a couple days at the beginning figuring out what she's okay with, rather than treating her as a No-Fun Zone waiting to happen. Women, surprisingly enough, are individuals; there's no telling how exactly she'll fit into the team, which kinds of off-color humor are off-limits, and which ones she'll happily partake in. Just make it clear, both to her and to the guys who already work there, that she has the right to go "whoa, guys, too far" and be taken seriously--actually taken seriously, not just a perfunctory "yes ma'am" and an unrepentant repeat of the same crap five minutes later. Old habits die hard, but the problem is not an occasional ribald remark slipping out and followed by "whoops, should we tone it down?" A really crappy, hostile situation is one where none of the guys will voluntarily self-correct or tell another guy to back off, where the girl has to say over and over again that she doesn't want to hear any more goddamn rape jokes and come off like a nagging shrew over something that should be common courtesy, and where everyone (or even just That One Asshole who nobody ever says anything to) is deliberately pushing against the limit of what she'll put up with. Having an innuendo jar or a silly tie could help prevent that, or it could just make things more miserable, depending on whether her coworkers have her back or not.
(For the record, there is only one appropriate response to "please don't tell rape jokes in front of me," and that response is "okay." This has nothing to do with whether rape jokes can ever be funny and everything to do with not being a total asshole to the person in question. Yeah, I've had to explain this in real life, though fortunately never at work.)
This is assuming, of course, that by "remarks, double entendres and innuendos" you mean banter on the level of "that's what she said" and yo-mamma jokes. If you're worried about creepy personal comments, sexual advances, or stuff that's openly derogatory to women in general, that's not a "put $5 in the swear jar" situation, that's shit that needs to stop yesterday--not to humor an uptight female, but out of basic decency. If you wouldn't want a gay guy saying it to you, why the hell would you inflict it on a colleague who's probably had to deal with a lot more of that kind of bullshit than you have?
But beyond sexist comments and blatantly disgusting behavior targeted at her just because she's got tits, it really is a matter of comfort zone. Personally, I'd laugh myself into a hernia if I found out my coworkers had been walking on eggshells to avoid innuendos around me, because hell, here I'd thought it was just the office culture and now it turns out I've been biting my tongue on all those "that's what she said"s for nothing. I can also see how someone else would find it obnoxious, unprofessional, or remniscient of more serious harassment. Or be okay with double entendres but not want to be party to in-depth discussions of Scarlett Johansson's figure. Mixed company is a funny thing; my friends and I are a pack of filthy-mouthed guttersnipes amongst ourselves, but we often dial it back if there are guys in the conversation, because chances are they don't want to hear us talking about David Tennant in more-or-less the same way they talk about Scarlett Johansson.
So basically... aside from 100% unacceptable behavior that you shouldn't be playing silly-tie games with in the first place, it's not about automatically scrubbing all your language squeaky-clean, it's about finding a dynamic that your original team and your new employee both find comfortable for mixed company and making a good-faith effort to respect it.
The women of both sexes on this site are going to mod me into oblivion, but I don't care. Someone has to point out the obvious:
The best way to ruin an enjoyable technical working environment is to add women to it. They are overly sensitive, lawsuit-happy, and generate an unending series of expensive, otherwise unnecessary overhead to even the leanest of operations.
The best way to keep tech jobs enjoyable: hope that women stay out of them. I keep reading about how few women are going into computer related fields, and I count my blessings.
There. Mod me down.
This "boys will be boys" crap, although common and pervasive, is really poisonous and naive attitude toward behavior that is completely intollerable. Start firing these assholes. There are tons of tallented men and women out there looking for jobs who would do the job better WITH respect for their colleagues. You probably don't have to fire everyone. Taking out the ringleader would do the trick.
act immediately to nip it in the bud.
so not only do you refer to female workers as objects but also suggest butt nipping from the get-go. naughty.
Vilifying Political Correctness is used far too often, as in this case, as an excuse to be a disrespectful ass. Sure, there are lots of cases I'm sure you could dig up of PC gone amok, but this isn't one of them.
So the fact that false accusations have been made in some cases means we have to scrap the whole concept of harassment? What a stupid implication. Should all rape accusations be dismissed because some woman somewhere falsely accused someone of raping her? Obviously not. And read the OP more closely. He clearly believes that the work environment will abusive, not that some woman is going to come in and decide to retire on the settlement proceeds from a false sexual harassment claim.
The problem with labels like "modern feminism" is that it allows for grossly oversimplifying the discussion. All you've done here is expose your own beliefs about what women might be thinking and charicatured them in the process.
How many interviews have you been on where the interviewer explained that all your potential coworkers like to make raunchy jokes and talk about female body parts, and if you don't like that kind of environment then you should quit the interview process? I more than positively sure you've never had such an interview. So how is this hypothetical interviewee supposed to know what the environment is like when they accept a position (ignoring the fact that the company would almost surely be sued for intimidating/offending/harassing a job applicant)?
Its called Political Correctness...
This:
http://www.playerattack.com/news/2012/07/26/guest-feature-a-call-to-arms-for-decent-men/
I didn't mean to imply that I was discriminated against or harassed, only that I had the "opportunity" to get a better appreciation for what it's like to be in the minority. I never felt obviously discriminated against and was very careful not to let any paranoia (and I'm certain there was some) override documentable observations. It's hard not to feel like maybe someone from the majority might be looked upon more favorably at review time or whatnot, but that is likely as much due to internal prejudices (however slight) as reality, at least in my case.
Why should a group of guys develop infantile, needy attitudes towards females just because they're not present, so that the arrival of a female requires change?
If you razz a woman in the same way, where is the problem? Who is suing? The problem is treating her differently because she's a woman and in the minority. As a general rule, if you wouldn't do it a climate of men and women as equals, don't do it anywhere, ever.
If they're used to being bullies towards men, yeah.
Though what you call "stifling", I'd call "growing the fuck up".
Depends on the distribution of power, and wether they're done in a friendly or aggressive way.
But you know what? Life's too short to explain any of this to those who don't know it. Males, you can be first class, or mediocre bullshit. Depending on your ability to think, and your ability to cut ties with apes. Females, stand the fuck up already. And much love to those who do.
... They didn't lose their jobs because of "words". They lost their jobs because they couldn't be professionals. If you can't behave like a mature adult, don't get pissed off when people stop treating you like one.
This:
http://www.playerattack.com/news/2012/07/26/guest-feature-a-call-to-arms-for-decent-men/ [playerattack.com]
Not sure if you're supporting or attacking that, but it's a nasty piece of work
Uh, no, you don't get to make other points of view disappear by fiat. Unless you've got an army behind you.
Uh, yeah, adopting the language of female bullies is really going to help.
Where of course abuse is defined by this bozo.
On the opposite end she could be a geek girl herself and know even "better" jokes than the guys.
Just because she knows how to respond doesn't mean she should have to. Shockingly, not everyone enjoys the way groups of straight men always seem to set up a status hierarchy expressed through 'harmless' jokes. I've even (*gasp!*) heard a few guys complain about it now and then.
and let her initiate/draw the line.
I work with a lady who is about my age (~35) and will occasionally say "Fuck me, Fuck me hard" when enough problems keep popping up. The key is to politely respond, "Damn it, not now, look at all this crap we have to fix."
No, getting 'razzed' isn't fine. A certain subset of mainly hetero men seem to think 'friendship' is expressed through taunts and insults, and the rest of us wish they'd knock it the fuck off but know it's pointless to say anything because they'll take that as a sign of weakness and get even more obnoxious. This does not constitute a 'fine' situation for anyone other than the overgrown frat boys in question.
There is a playful, complimenting way, and an aggressive, bitter one. I dare say if it's genuine and happens in a reverent and respectful way, EVERYBODY likes it. But some (men and women) will so often try to flirt with others because *they* find *them* sexy -- not because it's mutual -- and do so in an aggressive, needy way. Combine that with an imbalance of power, physical or otherwise, and you have the recipe for fucked up BS.
So yes, all other factors being equal, what is crossing the line is the same for men and women and little furry creatures from alpha centauri. But all other factors are rarely equal. So it's a TOTALLY FUCKED UP argument to say "but guys don't mind"... of course they don't, duh, that's kind of the point!
However, unlike individuals, companies only exist at the whims of government.
To be perfectly pedantic it is not companies per se who are creatures of government, but incorporated companies. But yes, you are right, the legal personality and limited liability which legislatures have afforded corporations must involve some quid pro quo with regard to society as a whole. This will include the legitimate regulation of corporate behaviour.
Any behavior toward another person that is not welcome is not fine. Including getting razzed. All I meant by the comment is that I am personally okay with a bit of teasing, but that sexual harassment is not just "getting razzed."
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Respect for others STARTS AND ENDS with THEIR right to say what the fuck they want to say. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED.
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
I am 40+ years old, and no, whenever I start looking for a job I get answers in matter of days.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
"If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?"
This can and does happen. You live in a strange, sheltered world.
'The problem with labels like "modern feminism" is that it allows for grossly oversimplifying the discussion. All you've done here is expose your own beliefs about what women might be thinking and charicatured them in the process.'
Or, I might be basing it off of actually having listened to several self-proclaimed feminists with relatively wide support, drawing conclusions from patterns in what I saw in both them and (more importantly) their supporters. Then again, it's easier for you to simply attack me, because obviously if I say something bad about it, I must be some kind of sexist. There could be no other reason. Thank you for proving EXACTLY what I was saying.
It is true I am generalizing the issue. It is impossible to address any sort of sociological issue without generalizing to some extent. Not all "feminists" do the things I say. Enough do, though, and the ones who aren't do not exactly make much effort to address the problems I stated. They simply prefer to shrug and act like it is the local color.
There is a very real problem and it is not the fact we have a patriarchal or matriarchal society: it is that we have double standards and guilt. We have feminists (not just women, men as well) who believe women should be treated better but equal, and then we have men who feel somehow that they make atone for some sin by repeating it. I say no. If you want equality, you need to pony up for equality. If I have to deal with bullshit, so do you. Sorry, but that's equality. If you do not want that, then what you want is re-arranged inequality.
"How many interviews have you been on where the interviewer explained that all your potential coworkers like to make raunchy jokes and talk about female body parts, and if you don't like that kind of environment then you should quit the interview process? I more than positively sure you've never had such an interview. So how is this hypothetical interviewee supposed to know what the environment is like when they accept a position (ignoring the fact that the company would almost surely be sued for intimidating/offending/harassing a job applicant)?"
I would say asking is a good start. It is in fact quite easy to ask a number of questions which would smoothly express the situation, if you are likely to be easily bothered by it. Further, there are a number of ways to dance around the topic on the employer's part, too; but I do believe it ought to be considered the interviewee's responsibility here. If they are the ones who are going to be easily offended, it falls upon them to decide if the situation is for them. Not everyone else to adapt to shield them from all possible offense.
Great Intellect...
Hire adults. You're set.
If your people don't understand what socially-acceptable behavior is, they are made of suck and bad.
"Bother," said Pooh, as lightning knocked out hi%#&(F*@NO CARRIER
Wow, two flamebait modes seconds apart. Someone is abusing the mod system.
In this case, I would say your sig applies to you.
Entirely stupid scenario. Here's the solution: stop acting like a team of 15yo sex craved virgins and start acting like real adults.
Problem solved.
I'm not paranoid - everyone really is out to get me.
no comment necessary.
Your point is not relevant to the reality of harassment policies.
Sure it is. I just believe it's rather idiotic that you can be fired merely because someone was offended by your speech (probably a mere joke). Then other people who are offended by rather different things are completely ignored. They arbitrarily decide that speech they label as "sexual harassment" is bad but the people offended by a common English word, for instance, are just insane.
and no reasonable, mature
.
What are "reasonable" and "mature"? Perhaps you could come up with an objective definition?
would ever find them an undue imposition on their personality or ability to work effectively.
It's too bad that these offended people won't do something else with their time (something that doesn't involve them expecting everyone to cater to their sensibilities).
and their employer could tell them to go pound rocks.
How arbitrary.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Oh. Tyranny of the minority is so, so much better!
Telling jokes that offend someone... what tyrants!
Work is not supposed to be about fun and hyjinks
Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to get work done without turning everyone into emotional robots that are deathly afraid to ever speak because someone might get offended. I know it's insane, but telling a joke actually doesn't waste that much time.
It's about professional self respect
No True Professional would do something that I object to!
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
If I were a litigious woman who had interviewed at your company and didn't make it, I'd be suing you right now using this Slashdot question as evidence.
Ummmm....stop hiring brogrammers? Just a thought
Your comment is highly offensive to me. In fact, I seem to get offended whenever someone disagrees with me. You have been warned.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to get work done without turning everyone into emotional robots
Agree. There are limits, and sexual harrassment is over the line
No True Professional would do something that I object to!
So you strawman my argument by insinuating that I am employing the No True Scotsman fallacy. If you actually have a sound reason why acting like an clown in your workplace and having no outward pride or respect in what you do is ideal conduct, by all means share your insights.
Marriage and all the collected social norms of different societies have around relationships can be said to have a evolutionary function.
I'd say marriage has little to do with it given the huge divorce rate. You don't have to get married to be in a long-term relationship (and it might even be safer if you don't).
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Uh, no, you don't get to make other points of view disappear by fiat. Unless you've got an army behind you.
The article is written mostly as an opinion piece, and rather strong worded at that.
Within the context, the article compares bigotrous behaviour to any behaviours that most parents would consider bad behaviour that needs to be corrected.
Obviously you CAN debate whether "a son is allowed to swear at his mother or molest his sister", but most people would consider won't disagree on these matters any more than they would disagree that an adult male should not be bigotrous.
Uh, yeah, adopting the language of female bullies is really going to help.
In all fairness, both the statement in the article and your response sound like name-calling. It doesn't do either party any good if you actually want a constructive discussion.
The right to speak in a public forum should be limited to those who donâ(TM)t abuse it.
Where of course abuse is defined by this bozo.
There are few truely "public" forums. The ones given as example are all privately owned forums made accessible to the general public. As privately owned forums, they can set any lawfull rule they want for allowing access.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
There are limits, and sexual harrassment is over the line
There are arbitrary limits.
So you strawman my argument
I did? The thing is, what constitutes "professional" behavior is subjective. Your statement, to me, implied that anyone who doesn't act in a certain way will be labeled "unprofessional."
If you actually have a sound reason why acting like an clown in your workplace and having no outward pride or respect in what you do is ideal conduct
Well, for one thing, I have no idea what you really mean. "Respect" is too ambiguous. If you're wasting all of your time not doing your work (perhaps by telling jokes), I'd say that's not ideal (because you won't get any work done). If you occasionally tell a joke that offends someone, I don't see a problem.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
You are presumably not all twelve year olds, so stop acting like them.
This is one of the most pitiful stories I have ever seen on slashdot, but I see it already has a large number of comments so at a wild guess the knuckle dragging "political correctness gone mad, I can't even slap my secretary's arse without getting into trouble" libertarians are out in force blaming the socialist Barack Obama for turning the US into a Stalinist hellhole where thoughtcrimes are punished.but only if you're a heterosexual, white, middle class, Christian male.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
.. sounds like par for the course.
I have friends who tried to go into nursing and you're describing exactly what they experienced.
Unfortunately, sexual harassment is only considered such if the victim is female.
None of my friends who went into nursing stayed on.
Except that I am jewish.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Do what I do. Keep remarks to things directly related to work. That's pretty much it. Everything else is a minefield for conversations. Harassment is in the eye of the person who claims to be harassed. Even if it's tossed out, you'll still be the guy who was dragged to HR for offending someone because of a genuinely inoffensive remark. That's not who you want to be. So, in short, try to avoid talking to people and when you do, guard your words as though they could land you in the HR office.
Paranoia. It's the disorder that greases the progression of a career in the 21st century.
disclaimer: I've never had an issue in this area. I'm just paranoid.
You see, nobody is a mind-reader. It's how you can pretend to be someone's friend and then snipe them when their back is turned. Everyone can do that. Because nobody is a mind-reader.
So, after having said it is making you uncomfortable, if it continues, ask if they're stupid for ignoring the information, then you can make it official.
You can skip the "are you stupid" for dark grey areas and skip straight to official for deep black.
But in all cases in the fuzzy area, you are beholden to say you're made uncomfortable if the discomfort is enough to stop you wanting to work there.
There are plenty of things I would say to my sister that I would never consider saying to a female coworker, so I find your second meme a bit disingenuous.
Blocking someone and restricting their movement is quite different from standing around a water cooler and telling jokes.
Because the rule as far as I've seen them are "if you're offended". That's a definition from the victim's POV.
Maybe the problem isn't the workers. Maybe the problem is the person managing them. Maybe they cannot concieve of a way these men can be nice honest and nonagressive men because he's been told time and time again that all men are bastards who merely want women as shaggable objects to leer at.
Maybe the only problem is the expectation of that manager.
And nothing to do with the workers.
sexual harassment makes someone uncomfortable. Some women have a higher tolerance than others. Comments are not deemed harassment until someone complains. if they complain and you do not correct the behavior then it's open for legal action. You can't expect things to change over night but we are all adults and if we are told not to speak a certain way around someone we should be mature enough to do it. Otherwise i think it might be time to fire someone.
> Yes, you should be able to tolerate crude jokes and "offensive" remarks your colleagues and even answering in kind without suing or being sued by them. If you cannot I will weight your value in my team against the trouble your over sensitivity brings.
And what value do crude jokes and offensive remarks bring to your team?
> If I want any work done in a timely and efficient fashion the only way is to create an environment were my employees can speak freely and are not fearful of being prosecuted all the time.
Are crude jokes and offensive remarks an essential part of discussing your work? Be specific: which genuinely work-related topic would become harder to discuss without such jokes and remarks?
> Police states are not conducive to productivity.
Strawman.
> Especially in IT, if such an environment is not achievable in US I will contract elsewhere.
You won't be missed.
> I'd argue not being able to adapt to the environment childishness.
I'd argue that sentence missing a verb somewhere.
> If you enter in a team you better be able to fit or to be so good that will be worth the trouble you are bringing.
Being harassed doesn't make you a troublemaker, it means you are surrounded by troublemakers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming
> In this last case it may even be a problem for your boss to solve, but certainly not for the legal system.
And if the boss decides not to get involved, or is (one of the) the harasser(s)? What if his boss (if any) and the one above that (if any) don't care either? How do you suggest we as a society should make companies show good behaviour if not by forcing them through the legal system?
Women can sexually harass men, too. It happened to me. I was running the tech team at a large advertising agency on Madison Avenue. One of the three biggest in the world. We hired a woman who proceeded to openly talk about the erotica she like to write, how she liked to dance naked, and regularly threw sexual innuendo into everything and make off-color remarks.
I didn't know what to do, it was such a bizarre situation. I complained to my boss, without result. I complained to his boss, without result. I went to HR and filed a formal complaint. The next day, I was fired.
From the tenor of most of the posts about this article it sounds like most men get what they're not supposed to do when it comes to sexual harassment. I'd like to figure out what to do when the shoe is on the other foot.
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Yes, I know that there are a bunch of ingrates on here, but that's why I said "as close as Slashdot gets." There are always going to be trolls or the terminally stupid...
Learn to read: "Notwithstanding the question of whether, if the marriage turns sour, it's better for the kids "
Or stop willfully misquoting.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
You don't need a policy for that.
Manners are manners, culture is culture and etiquette is etiquette and most of those you can teach. Even nerdy grown-ups can learn them pretty fast. If you are worrying that your team will run into a sticky situation, establish a person of trust or review the situation in one-on-one talks frequently. If one day the new girl thinks that somebody has crossed the line she should feel comfortable saying it out loud, at least in a one-on-one or to her teamlead.
If done some sexistic behaviour myself without noticing right away and inmediately appologised a few moments in - not without humor and self-parody to take the edge off. Like explaining cinch plugs to a female PHD of electrical engineering who just so happend to be my dance partner at the time. It wasn't a work situation, and it was funny, mostly because I was making a complete idiot of myseld in front of her, but it was sexist in a way. We aren't used to girls knowing shit about electronics, it's that simple.
If she is good, have her take the lead in a project and prove her competence in discourse with the other guys. Sexisim will go down to the usual level right away and you will be able to deal with it the usual way.
BTW, there also is workplace sexism the other way around, even in computer companies. It's just much much more of a taboo. But that's ok. I think we can agree that the ladies still have more catch up to do and we can cut them some slack in that dept.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I think you've been unfairly tagged on the flamebait item...
Considering that /. is supposedly a nerd haven, and I was essentially paraphrasing Heinlein... yea.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Yes.
Definition of equality..what is ok for them, is ok for me too....?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Of course, there is probably the odd person not really suffering and still suing just for money, but if there's ground for a lawsuit there's probably something morally wrong behind the scene
Your naivete is adorable. Don't ever change.
This is interesting. It might make a difference in the field you work. I'm an EMT working for a company that focuses on substance abuse treatment and psych treatment. The first facility i worked at, our clients were high or drunk, homeless, withdrawing, pretty much every client was at a very low point in there lives, and most didnt care. My coworkers are usually recovering drug addicts, or nurses and EMTs. The only way we could deal with the stresses was to (in good hearted ways I guess) take it out on your coworkers. The place is an HR nightmare...and we are ok with this.
Indoctrinate : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments Educate : to develop mentally, morally, or aestheti
I've BTDT: I worked IT in a hospital, where you're the only male within spitting distance. It sucked for the exact reasons you mention. It was made worse by the fact that it was a small town and there weren't a whole lot of men there in general, and I was married at the time. I'm also not bad looking, at least for a geek. :)
I had my ass grabbed repeatedly by multiple women, had multiple advances (some which were, at least, interesting, bust most of which were disturbing due to coming from my hag manager), had innuendo flying about all the time, and was "visually undressed" almost constantly. What's worse, it was pretty obvious that it wasn't a give-and-take type situation, as I infrequently got a positive response while joking back. I was ultimately fired by my boss for bogus reasons unrelated to any of this, of course.
It was a right to work state, so there wasn't much recourse on those grounds, but I'm guessing I had a sexual harassment suit had I wanted one. I didn't want the headache. Get up and move on: it was a learning experience. I learned a lot: women get away with imaginable levels of shit men would never be able to get away with in many cases. But more important than that, I learned two things:
* Never work in a healthcare/hospital environment unless the organization is large enough to have a full IT team, IE a team of men
* People should not work in fields which makes them a cultural minority if they do not want to deal with that kind of bullshit. Tell them you don't like it, sure. They will either respect you or not. But don't use their misbehavior as a free card for a lawsuit. Be professional and deal with it properly with the person first.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Says the guy whose name basically says Her Breath smells like Pee, Nuts, and Butt. What if someone found that offensive while you are posting at work?
It is silly to think you can find any topic no one would be offended with. There is always someone who is offended by anything you say, and as religion can encompass basically anything, in the end most offenses are covered by law. The plaintiff won't always win, but you sometimes he or she will, even if the claim is ridiculous.
i'm not so sure. I remember a case of a woman outright grabbing a male co-worker's genitals and the case got thrown out.
Get rid of all the women in there.
There is a playful, complimenting way, and an aggressive, bitter one. I dare say if it's genuine and happens in a reverent and respectful way, EVERYBODY likes it
No, I do not. I do not want anybody but my wife talking to me that way, not even in a playful complimenting way.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
I discovered that many places where I ended up working, there was already a high degree of sexual harassment going on already, and mainly between the "Better looking" people in the company, and nobody cared.
But if a less attractive nerdy programmer makes any such gesture or comment, its sexual harassment. Didn't make that mistake myself, but watched it happen to others. Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time! And it was just stunning because not even 24 hours ago the very same people making all the noise were making all kinds jokes about one anothers unmentionables and private-areas. Its just how it is: you gotta be good looking and/or charming enough be grandfathered into the harassment-safe click.
No, in some workplaces it would be grounds for instant dismissal, outing in the surrounding community followed by death threats or actual violence.
I worked at a firm not long ago that had a manager that was sexist, homophobic and a raging alcoholic. When I checked with co-workers I determined that corporate policy was that it was cost-beneficial to keep him and lose me.
It is true I am generalizing the issue. It is impossible to address any sort of sociological issue without generalizing to some extent. Not all "feminists" do the things I say. Enough do, though, and the ones who aren't do not exactly make much effort to address the problems I stated. They simply prefer to shrug and act like it is the local color.
Okay, I can't disagree with this point. I really dislike PETA and the NRA because of their public extremism and tend to view the whole organization in a negative way. But I try to be careful not to extrapolate from too small a sample size. I know a member of PETA personally who does not espouse such extreme views, and since I haven't personally talked to a large percentage of members, I'm unwilling to assume they all match the profile painted mostly by the media (not blaming the media, they just tend to report the more extreme actions and beliefs of the group). On the flip side, I'm not willing to give the organization as a whole the benefit of the doubt, either.
There is a very real problem and it is not the fact we have a patriarchal or matriarchal society: it is that we have double standards and guilt. We have feminists (not just women, men as well) who believe women should be treated better but equal, and then we have men who feel somehow that they make atone for some sin by repeating it. I say no. If you want equality, you need to pony up for equality. If I have to deal with bullshit, so do you. Sorry, but that's equality. If you do not want that, then what you want is re-arranged inequality.
I don't really understand why you think women, in order to be treated equally, have to put up with sexist bullshit. You back up that supposition with the false argument that you have to put up with bullshit, so they should also. You *don't* have to put up with bullshit any more than I do. You have the same recourse they do if you feel like the environment you are in is unreasonably abusive in any way. For example, if I was in a group of all non-blacks and some or many of the members were openly racist, I would not tolerate that. In your view I should just suck it up and quit my job because I don't agree with the majority. I hope you can see how wrong that view is.
The really difficult thing in this discussion is where to draw the line between acceptable and non-acceptable behavior. There are those (like you) who would rather not have a line at all and make all behavior acceptable, which I think is a response to the belief (real or perceived) that there are those who want the line so tightly draw that almost all behavior is unacceptable. Neither is correct, there has to be a reasonable middle ground. Unfortunately, there's far too little actual reason these days, so perhaps I'm asking way too much.
"How many interviews have you been on where the interviewer explained that all your potential coworkers like to make raunchy jokes and talk about female body parts, and if you don't like that kind of environment then you should quit the interview process? I more than positively sure you've never had such an interview. So how is this hypothetical interviewee supposed to know what the environment is like when they accept a position (ignoring the fact that the company would almost surely be sued for intimidating/offending/harassing a job applicant)?"
I would say asking is a good start. It is in fact quite easy to ask a number of questions which would smoothly express the situation, if you are likely to be easily bothered by it. Further, there are a number of ways to dance around the topic on the employer's part, too; but I do believe it ought to be considered the interviewee's responsibility here. If they are the ones who are going to be easily offended, it falls upon them to decide if the situation is for them. Not everyone else to adapt to shield them from all possible offense.
That's not the world we live in. If I were interviewing a woman (or
It's been said, roughly 1000 times, but I want to say it again anyways: are your fucking daft!? You're completely thinking of this from a male's perspective instead of empathizing with the new female joining the team. "It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse" - so, you're team is all high school boys? Did you guys miss the memo about being polite in a workplace? What about just being respectful? Do you get on a bus and make lude comments to the women on it because it's how your mind works?
The best mitigation for this behavior is to disallow it from the get-go, and having an environment where this is the norm (be it all male or not, currently) is not a good thing from a business perspective. What if your team is making jokes like this on a day when a supervisor happens to pop in and be on the other side of the cubical wall? If you're going to act like jackasses, expect to be treated like it when you get FIRED for harassment.
Back in the day, we use to have characters like Snoopy, nude women and the like, come off of a CDC-166 line printer and we'd have them posted in our offices and labs. Heck, when PC's came aound with mouses, we even had "Batchelor (mouse) Pads," with a picture of a woman in a Speedo, on the face of the pad. (The company also produced a "Bachelorette Pad" with some guy).
Anyway, the PC (Political Correctness) Police came along and everybody had to go to indoctrination, I mean orientation about "sexual harassment." This meant all of the props, had to come down and morale went out the door with the posters and such.
We all knew our responsibilities and what needed to be delivered. As long as everybdoy did their job and kept their nose clean, we never had any problems.
Just tell them, any horseplay won't be tolerated. No jokes about T&A, no innuendos, no talk about the reason why her game may be off or why she's grouchy. If she is to hard to handle, have them see you. That's what a boss is for.
As far as the work is concerned, if she wants to play lumberjack, she better be able to "roll the logs" and rely on her own knowledge, skills and abilities.
In my organization we are fired immediately if there is anything even resembling sexual harassment. It's simply not tollerated from any of the thousands and thousands of IT personal in our company. End of discussion.
Hah, more compliments for me! :)
Balance. I don't want to work in a toxic environment, but nor do I want to work in a completely sterile one. Over 20+ years of my career, I've never had to work in either sort of environment. I'm not aware of a single complaint in all of that time among my peers (so any complaints that may have occurred would have been between a very small group about a very specific incident, not about the general culture). At one job, we all had to attend mandatory sexual harassment training, but that was mostly in response to the lawsuit brought by the HR VP/former mistress of the CEO. I'm sure that in that time, things were said that offended some (even me), but not so much as to warrant a complaint, and certainly not endemic to the culture.
There may be a somewhat justified fear of having to live in sterile environments simply because, of the two extremes, the sterile one doesn't raise the specter of lawsuits. Society is too quick to impose zero-tolerance rules to avoid any chance of litigation (look at some of the ridiculous crap that happens in schools--suspensions for carrying Midol? Really?). That hasn't invaded any place where I've worked, but then as a rule, everyone I've worked with has been respectful in the workplace (and believe me, some of them were real jerks outside of work, definitely not the kind of people I would socialize with). Perhaps I've just been very lucky, but I hope not.
"Law" and "Suit". That'll put an end to it... or you, them, and your company.
Moral of the story: what user1 perceives as "It's what normal, mature human beings do" is offensive to user2. At work, everyone should feel save and respected, including that pretty girl who just got hired because of her two special talents (in your opinion, of course).
It's unfortunate, but the "good old days" are gone. It's not all bad, but the workplace is a minefield these days. The best advice when dealing with the opposite sex is to be friendly, but do not go any further than talking about the weather.
I'm 100 percent certain that this is the exact opposite of what almost all women want.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
So you're offended by the word "the"? Don't expect me to stop using it to make you happy.
Straw man. "The" is normal usage in all cultures. Commenting favourably or unfavourably upon one's personal attributes (eg. sexual orientation, appearance) is not.
Interesting. My first question in a job interview is "Does your office have a sexual harassment policy?"
It's never prevented me getting a position.
I've had to invoke it more than once.
Straw man.
How in the world is that a straw man? You might feel it's an inappropriate analogy, but how is it a straw man?
"The" is normal usage in all cultures.
As I thought, you missed my point. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I was pointing out how idiotic I feel it is that people getting offended about certain things matter more than people getting offended by other things. Somehow, if someone were to be offended by the word "the," it wouldn't be your fault if they were offended, but in other cases, it would be.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Hire a lawyer(s), designate someone in HR the "go to" on harassment, require training. Everyone ignores it and makes fun of said training. Repeat yearly.
C.Y.A. is very expensive and non productive. It's more important to spend money on training managers to hire the right people that fit into your corporate culture than it is to over spend on harassment training. Just one person who doesn't "get it/fit in" or is looking for an opportunity to exploit will ruin a fun productive corporate culture turning it into a "policy de jour" and mindless non productive training.
I was never saying that was an inappropriate reason to adminster a dress code. Like I said, it is "unprofessional", which is a slight more tactful way of phrasing it. However, it is inappropriate to do it in front of another lab member. What the grandparent should have done is to administer the reprimands separately, and made every effort to disconnect the episode of sexual harassment from the dress code infractions. The problem with doing otherwise is that even if, at the end of the conversation you say "well, the harasser is at fault" you are still implying that the dress code infraction in some way led to the episode of harassment. It is perfectly acceptable to classify modes of dress as "distracting" but not as "the cause of sexual harassment". The things which lead to an episode of sexual harassment dwell entirely in the harasser: external factors are a mere rationalization. I fully believe that the harasser in this and the majority of cases would have behaved inappropriately towards the girl even if she were dressed like a nun.
To use a less contentious example from my own workplace: a lab mate left a pair of leather gloves near a base bath. Another lab member, assuming these were intended for use in the base bath, used them to retrieve some glassware. The gloves themselves were ruined, and while the second lab member was thankfully unharmed, they had committed a serious safety infraction and put themselves in dan. Now it is true both parties are at fault: the leather gloves are to be stored near the glass mill, not the base bath. The first lab member had broken the policy of appropriate glove storage. However, the second lab member should have been operating with knowledge of appropriate glove usage and not stuck their hands into caustic solution protected by gloves which are barely even waterproof. While both are at fault, they are at fault for different things, and to hold the first lab member responsible for the danger the second placed themselves in due to their own negligence is not appropriate.
In other words, while the actions of the first party may precipitate the actions of the second, if it can reasonably be assumed that said action would not be precipitated in a normal person (i.e., disobeying the dress code may distract a coworker, however it can be reasonably assumed that it would not cause said coworker to begin sexually harassing you) it is not appropriate to hold that person responsible for the ultimate result, any more than cutting off a car containing a fleeing drug-debtor makes you responsible for his eventual murder at the hands of a Columbian coke-lord.
In my team I have 12 different nationalities with 12 different cultures. As of now, we have two females in our team. On our office floor we have many more females, and many, many more nationalities with as many different cultures.
If I were you I would never make a joke about anything. Ever.
In this world of gay transgender it can get real complex.
How does one cope with a person in transition (can take years)?
Dresses like a women but still pees standing up.... I know
of work places where women have left to do their bit at Starbucks
five blocks away rather than shave the "Ladies" with what ever
seems to be in there stinking it up...
Sadly the entire process is designed to protect the company
at the expense of individuals. The slightest whisper of a indiscretion
in companies can get you on a plan or even tossed. There are
no rules of evidence no due process and no penalty (to the company
and most often not for the accuser ) for a false accusation.
I am old enough to recall a time when your were considered odd
if you did not make a remark or even take a pass at the new girl.
And this is not just the guys.... the gals thought you odd and
it would get difficult to get typing paper let alone get your paper
typed.
Companies and the law need to wake up perhaps a very very expensive
tort for a false claimed wrong will help.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
Says the guy who's obviously never been in the minority position in an uncomfortable environment.
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
And note that in the OP's case, it may very well be that the woman that joins the group is perfectly comfortable in that environment, but that's a decision she gets to make, like it or not. Where I work now, there are women who can dish it out just as well as the guys (and seem to enjoy doing so), but we're all aware of what others are comfortable with. It's a natural part of simply being respectful.
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What about women who are provocatively dressed, such as wearing skin tight clothing and headlight style foundation uppers? Who is the lure, and who is the fish that gets into trouble?
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
If company's did the right thing addicts could get jobs but the DEA has stolen our God given RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION AND MADE US AN UNEMPLOYABLE CRIMINAL CLASS .USING THE FACT THAT THEY FORCE LIVES OF CRIME ON US AS JUSTIFICATION FOR THEIR HATEFUL SABOTAGE OF OUR LIVES IF ANY OF THESE SHOW PONY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS WERE WORTH THEIR SALT THEY WOULD try the DEA for war crimes against us and treason against the people who pay their wages for them to lie to them that they are stopping drug taking. when they deliberately promoted a global drug problem to secure young drug addicted girls, for their backers in organized crime, politics and law enforcement.the junkies against crime intend to see all the above groups face trial for their gross negligence and dereliction of duty in these crimes against humanity .regards the motorcycle messiah
gosgog (me):
If you can't hire anything but nasty little juvenile kids, or those who aren't "getting any", then I'll feel sorry for you, otherwise GROW UP, women exist in this world, if they didn't you wouldn't be here...will your Moms put up with that kind of shit...hell no!
So if they can't handle it FIRE 'EM.
I'm not saying that there aren't sniggering little douches out there, whose prime goal is to make anyone eligible to wear a skirt as uncomfortable as possible (you know who you are), but on the other hand, women working in a traditionally male workplace can't be exceptionally thin skinned either. They simply have to make it clear to everyone from the outset that the conversations, comments and innuendo in no way applies to them, they're just there to do the job.
Case in point: I used to work in the oil patch around about ten years ago. At first my crew / shopmates weren't sure quite how to behave with a 'girl' on the truck (I saw an awful lot of bare spots on the walls where the nudie pics were hastily removed :). After a brief discussion with the guys, I made it clear that I didn't mind foul language, dirty jokes, or photos of women on the walls (as long as they were wearing a bikini at least), so long as they were absolutely, crystal clear that none of that ever applies to me. They relaxed, I relaxed, and we got along great! The guys would keep their skin mags in the sleeper, and always made sure I had privacy when we didn't have a bathroom on site (more often than not, unfortunately). They'd even call down the rig guys on my behalf if they started getting obnoxious, they really were a super set of guys to work with.
Of course, the other side of the coin is: the boss must be approachable if there is even one jerk in the bunch who won't take 'no' or 'get lost' for an answer. I thankfully never got to that point, the few who were mildly persistent eventually got it through their heads that I was serious about my job and would never break my workplace rules on the matter. But if it is causing stress, and the guy just won't take a hint, then the boss better be ready to back her up with measures. Same from the other direction: if she starts hitting on some of the team and won't take 'no', or 'I'm married' for an answer, the boss had better be ready to back the guys up, pronto!
Of course, it's often the boss who is the source of the problem.
Seriously, your question does almost sound like a troll. Either you are suggesting that your team is a bunch of animals, or that this women is apparently a walking complaint waiting to happen. It does turn out to be a fact of life that in general men, and women, talk about things, and in ways that are just not appropriate in mixed company sometimes. Remind your team of this.
Hostile workplace is the one you want to learn and learn now. It's gender neutral and if your workplace is hostile, well, I hope you have your CV updated.
I suppose it was inevitable that someone would ask this question, although I would have thought it would be pretty worn out at this point. The phrasing of your question implies that one side has to be right and the other wrong, which is a false dichotomy. Provocative dress, either male or female, is not appropriate in many workplaces, especially professional cube-farms. The offender should be told to be more moderate. But provocative dress does not green-light ape-ish behavior, either. Discipline is appropriate in both cases. And I don't think one should have any bearing on the other, mostly in the sense that, for example, how a woman is dressed should have no bearing on how serious sexually harassing remarks from a male coworker might be taken.
I suppose it was inevitable that someone would ask this question, although I would have thought it would be pretty worn out at this point. The phrasing of your question implies that one side has to be right and the other wrong, which is a false dichotomy. Provocative dress, either male or female, is not appropriate in many workplaces, especially professional cube-farms. The offender should be told to be more moderate. But provocative dress does not green-light ape-ish behavior, either. Discipline is appropriate in both cases. And I don't think one should have any bearing on the other, mostly in the sense that, for example, how a woman is dressed should have no bearing on how serious sexually harassing remarks from a male coworker might be taken.
I guess you have not worked in as many environments as I have. Over 35 years. I've seen everything from harassement begining with no underwear under the skirt to skintight blouses with no bras to provide modesty to cases of he after she and she after he. Rarely has a person continued when the target said stop, I don't like your harassment, I am not interested. Men with testosterone to women with hormonal peaks at mid-month.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
has always worked really well.
Look if you're hiring people who are so immature and who have such poor judgement that they can't behave around women, YOU are the problem.
It seems more than obvious that you're part of that clueless group that needs growing up if you're unable to "get" the message he's trying to convey.
I don't agree with all he says (especially the focus on men having to do this as if the mothers and sisters he mentions have no influence) but I definitely do agree with the underlying message, I've had too many online (female) friends leave games in disgust because some asshole can't keep his mouth shut. It just ain't cool.
Seriously. You have to take this seriously. It's not a fun topic and you can't make it fun. What will you say to the judge in court when you are asked your sexual harassment policy? "We make the men wear silly ties." We are in an era of litigation. Punishing employees like children won't work. My suggestion is have a written policy with an escalation process. Then follow said process. You should already have this and policies for other issues like treatment of people with disabilities. You should also have periodic training/education at least annually. Oh yeah, if you don't already have one, get an attorney and have your policy/training reviewed.
Having a workplace where "guys are guys" is not a tolerable solution in today's workplace. If you care about your shareholders and or brand, you're going to have to change your culture pretty quickly to avoid potential trouble. The simple way to make it clear is by helping current employees understand the definition of a harrassing work environment - a.k.a if ONE employee (even one not being harrassed) perceives the environment as harrassive - the workplace is considered harrassive and changes need to take place. The fact that a couple of women on the team "can take it" does not make it ok. An employee who witnesses harrassive behavior (even if tolerated by the target of a barb or comment), can claim (legitimately) that the workplace tolerates harrassment. The burden of proof is NOT high and represents a serious vulnerability to those companies which fail to recognize and correct inappropriate behavior quickly. That said, I hope your company succeeds.
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." T. Roosevelt
An unattractive women is much safer to work with men as long as she isn't too uptight. If she *is* attractive then what the hell is she doing in IT?
Also, if I even catch a hint during the interview that ANY new hire would disrupt the existing and functional group, for ANY reason, I would hire someone less potentially disruptive. I could care less about being fair. It's only about results. Period. If my team fails to meet a critical goal due to infighting then my ass will be fired.
Let's face it, in these days of globalization, there are probably several people just waiting to fill any half-decent job for less money so it's easy to pass on a risky candidate when you weigh it against the cost of disruption and potential failure.
Ok flame away, but I'm just saying what most of us know to be the case. To hell with the politically correct bullshit.
The use of the term shit is offensive. Oh, and if you raise your voice, that's threatening. And don't forget that your perfume is offensive. Now everyone get in their cube, don't talk to a fellow employee without an HR person and corporate lawyer present. Have a wonderfully happy day!
Are you actually a moron, or do you just play one on /.?
I am a female mechanical engineer and I don't have any problems. This is because I do not expect everyone to be genteel around me. If the men aren't comfortable being themselves around me then I'm not truely part of the group. When dirty jokes are told around the lunch table, I ignore the ones I don't like and when I see a naked lady on the workshop calendar, I ignore it. The other women where I work are all in clerical jobs, and the men are very socially respectful towards them, but that comes with the fact that they are not technically savvy. I hear the jokes, but they also do what I tell them to when they work on my projects, because they respect me professionally instead. We all get along fine. If a woman wants to succeed in a male dominated field, she shouldn't expect the culture to bend around her. She should be a tougher soul than that. Does a joke really hurt you?
Now maliciousness and descrimination are different than all that.
What I truely hate is when people expect me to be good at clerical work and filing. Another woman at my company was told she's not aloud on the plant floor because it's too dangerous for her. That is actual sexist descrimination. Dirty jokes are peanuts, as long as they're in good spirits.
OP here.
My wife and I work for the same employer, although we no longer work together (we did when we met, although not when we started dating. We did, however, get to go on a business trip together after we were married when a customer needed both of our skills. For a month. In Hawaii. :-)
Quite frankly, if you are offended by a quick hug or kiss when a couple bump into each other in the hallway, you need to grow a thicker skin. A total makeout session is indeed inappropriate, but a quick display of affection between a couple is certainly not out of line.
You need to get with HR. And if you don't have an HR department, then please get a clue. This kind of foolishness is illegal. Both your company and you individually can get successfully sued, for way more money than your company has ever earned.
You need to articulate a strict policy, both orally and in writing. You need to be clear, both orally and in writing, that the consequences for violating that policy can include termination.
Oh yeah, and there's the small fact that no employee should have to deal with the kind of nonsense that your guys are getting away with.
Please, please get a clue.
Is that too much to ask? Is the concept dead?
So what country is the one you speak of? I really want to go experience this horrible "I know I'm going to be hit on at some point today" environment for myself!
So, I guess the moral of the story here is that gays are bad and if you want to keep your job and not get hit with lawsuits, don't hire them? Yea, I know. That was just a flame asking for trouble. Disregard. However, I believe that if he had an issue, he should have spoken up to begin with instead of playing a game like that. I have a feeling that such a course may have been his plan all along; the moment he walked into the job on day one and saw the globally renowned magazine he probably thought "score".