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China Has a Massive Windows XP Problem

An anonymous reader writes "The Chinese are going to have a very, very hard time kicking the Windows XP habit. The deadline for the retirement of Microsoft's most successful operating system ever is eight months from tomorrow: April 8, 2014. That's the day when the Redmond, Wash. company is to deliver the last XP security update. According to analytics company Net Applications, 37.2% of the globe's personal computers ran Windows XP last month. If Microsoft's estimate of 1.4 billion Windows PCs worldwide is accurate, XP's share translates into nearly 570 million machines. In the U.S., 16.4% of all personal computers ran Windows XP in July, or about one in six, Net Applications' data showed. But in China, 72.1% of the country's computers relied on the soon-to-retire operating system last month, or nearly three out of every four systems."

520 comments

  1. xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ive got at least 4 workstations that are still running xp, we have legacy software and drivers that wont work on win7, and win8 blows. but we dont worry about updates, since these dont connect to the web. m$ is going to be a dinosaur very soon, the signs are there....

    1. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      I still use Windows XP and Windows 2000. They were good operating systems and, from my perspective, Vista, 7, and 8 haven't brought anything to the table. Quite the opposite, in fact: I went full penguin after Vista came out. It was patently clear that Microsoft was going in a direction I didn't want to go.

    2. Re:xp still works by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Funny

      I still use Windows XP and Windows 2000. They were good operating systems and, from my perspective, Vista, 7, and 8 haven't brought anything to the table. Quite the opposite, in fact: I went full penguin after Vista came out. It was patently clear that Microsoft was going in a direction I didn't want to go.

      Yes, but what of the botnets? Who will take care of them? Without care and feeding of ineffective security updates to make users believe they are safe from such things, the botnets will wither and die.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    3. Re:xp still works by norite · · Score: 1

      Actually, 7 isn't too bad an OS; you just have to install classicshell to get rid of the severely kneecapped start menu they tried to force on folks.

      --
      -- Fuck Beta
    4. Re:xp still works by symbolset · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have three xp units left. We will migrate to Linux.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    5. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows XP and 2000 were good OSes, as long as you don't care about limited user accounts, escalating privileges, file permissions, or anything like that.

    6. Re:xp still works by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 4, Funny

      DOS still works too, if you find the right hardware to run it on or use it in a virtual machine. Does that mean we should all be using DOS?

    7. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WOOOOOSSSSHHHHHHHH!!!!

    8. Re:xp still works by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Informative

      You mean the all so horrible instant search where I can start word and view files by subject in 1\9 of a second without a mouse?

      You couldn't pay me to go back to XP style start menu! Yuck.

      Some people are so stuburn and hate change so much they refuse to learn anything new including Windows 7 features as I am not referingto 8 at all.

    9. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Don't worry, Linux boxes are far from immune from them. As soon as they take an interest, the botnet creators will be happy to make sure that their software is safe and sound on your Linux and MacOS boxes.

      Warms the heart, really.

    10. Re:xp still works by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Yeah, running both "Classic" and Windows 7 style start menus, I prefer the Windows 7 start menus. It's a lot easier to get at what you use all the time by pinning to to the start menu or the task bar.

      I wasn't so sure about those changes, but they work pretty well when you get used to them.

    11. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is this "start menu" you speak of? Who in their right mind would use such a thing?
      2000 Is still the best OS from MS (unless you count OS/2 1.3 which was the most stable OS EVER!) but XP has more drivers so you have to switch just because of that.

      MS should just bite the bullet and launch "Microsoft Hardcore" an XP with DX11 and be done with it. If I experiment in the kitchen and it turns out crap I don't serve it, I order trusty old school Pizza!

    12. Re:xp still works by jamesh · · Score: 1

      I still use Windows XP and Windows 2000. They were good operating systems and, from my perspective, Vista, 7, and 8 haven't brought anything to the table. Quite the opposite, in fact: I went full penguin after Vista came out. It was patently clear that Microsoft was going in a direction I didn't want to go.

      64 bit OS, allowing >4GB memory? There were hacks, and there was XP64, but neither of those really count as solutions

      SSD Trim support?

      Neither of those do anything to counteract the bad taste of Vista, or 8. 7 was okay though, once you get used to it (and it's less of a jump than getting used to Linux). I'd use Linux on my desktop if I could though. I use it just about everywhere else.

    13. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem confused, DOS and XP are two different things. One is basically a loader with some CLI functionality, the other is a multitasking OS with tons of features and a solid network stack.
      When it comes to XP/Vista/Windows7/Windows8 its the same beast. All basic functionallity is the same the biggest difference is that services in XP is better documented and that the network stack. VW78 on the other hand has a facy UI that has been designed to attract a 13 year old with ADHD, sadly you do not get that with XP. :-(

    14. Re:xp still works by Skrapion · · Score: 2

      Eh, the Windows Vista/7 Start menu came with good changes and bad changes.

      The search feature is definitely a boon, but I don't feel it's panacea. If you just want to browse the software on somebody's computer, or if you forgot the name of the program you want to run, the search feature is no help.

      The really bad decision they made was to remove popout menus from the Start menu and replace them with a scrollbar. This definitely made the Start menu less usable, and I feel Microsoft's only reason for doing it was for aesthetics.

      The real shame is that there was never an option to have both the search feature and the popout menus. It was always one or the other.

      But the search feature is nice, because the Start menu has never been well organized, and the new Start screen is no improvement. But does it have to be this way? Linux distros have well-organized start menus. I feel like Microsoft could have made an effort to create a framework that would have fostered a well-organized menu, and we could have had the best of both worlds.

      But obviously we don't live in a world where that happened, so we just type our commands into a search box. It works, but at this point we may as well be running our programs from a terminal.

      --
      The details are trivial and useless; The reasons, as always, purely human ones.
    15. Re:xp still works by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      With a name like that... but anyway, let me say this: hell, no! Search has poor discoverability, you have to know beforehand and remember what you have in a given computer. I'm not saying XP's menu is much better, in fact it has a deadly flaw: the applications are not properly categorized. There's no logical arrangement. Hell, it's not even consistently alphabetical. So, both are bad.

      Then who gets it right? Linux does. See the hierarchy in that menu? Programs are organized neatly and logically. Similar apps go together. And there's still a search box if you want one.

    16. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the search that searches through all kinds of crap when i only want it to give me a list of programs i have in my start menu with the given word, and it takes 10 seconds to just come up with calculator?

    17. Re:xp still works by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Informative

      Windows 95 used to do that and I forgot about that.

      When I am on a Windows 7 if I am thinking of something I wrote 3 years ago I just hit th windows key and type acme sales 2010 and enter to find the documents. Beagle under Linux tried similiar functionalty.

      I show all die hard XP users this and within 10 minutes they are hooked. I do not care about the menus as I am so hooked on instant search now that I cant live without it. Jumplists and aero snap make me a windows 7 diehard.

      Sorry I lost faith in Linux after gnome 3. Windoes 8 might make me reconsider though :-)

      Windows 7 for a crappy Windows OS really was the best version and to me even eclipsed XP.

    18. Re:xp still works by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Windows key Cal enter done! 1/8th of a second.

      Thank you

    19. Re:xp still works by crutchy · · Score: 0

      Some people are so stuburn and hate change so much they refuse to learn anything new including Windows 7 features

      same could be said about reluctance to learn linux. if people put even half the effort into learning linux as they have into learning windows they would have no problems

      i also don't think people are that reluctant to change... they are simply reluctant to change for the sake of change (ribbons anyone?) or for the sake of lining the pockets of greedy microsoft investors; most people will change if there is a good reason for them to do so, but if it ain't broke why fix it?

    20. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't worry, Linux boxes are far from immune from them.

      People here have been saying that for decades, but still there's no Linux malware.

      Even when a Linux derivative (Android) is about to pass Windows' installed base, it still has less than 0.1% of the malware out there on Windows. You'd have to say this theory is thoroughly busted.,

    21. Re:xp still works by crutchy · · Score: 0

      ms-dos 6.22 rulz ok:\>

    22. Re:xp still works by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There were hacks

      The pentium two was not a hack. The odd one out with a lack of PAE support was the home computer software from MS, a bit of a spit in the face since everything else, even the MS server range, could handle it.
      People will make noise about hardware but they do not understand that the problem there was once again the OS - the NT server drivers for some hardware inherited too much crap from the home computer range so had broken PAE support. In a lot of cases that same hardware that people considered a show stopper had drivers that could deal with the situation properly on other operating systems.
      It's astonishing that the situation went on for so long. The pentium two came out many years ago and 32 bit Vista (and most likely win7) still didn't support it and everything since properly.

    23. Re:xp still works by crutchy · · Score: 0

      until instant search can correctly interpret "that program i used yesterday" or "the thingy with the clicky thing" or "fuck you pyewta!" only uber microsoft geeks will use it... the rest of the world will rely on icons

    24. Re:xp still works by crutchy · · Score: 0

      your kung fu is weak


      user@machine:~$expr 13 \* 57
      741

      i didn't even have to reach for the mouse

    25. Re:xp still works by crutchy · · Score: 1

      Does that mean we should all be using DOS?

      yes... yes it does

    26. Re:xp still works by deroby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Off course said theory isn't busted. It's not like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_malware doesn't exist, it's simply hardly worth the effort to focus on Linux.

      On top of that, the typical/average Linux-user is much better informed about security issues than is the typical/average Windows-user (**). So making a website to trick people into clicking/downloading/running something malicious is more likely to work in the latter case.
      Switch mom&pop to Linux and before you know it they'll be clicking the same links and the botnets will live happy ever after.

      Linux might never see the sheer volume of malware that exists for Windows because it's "late in the game" and because simply put both the developers and the users have learnt quite a bit over the years making it harder for viruses etc to propagate.

      (**: Apple used to be 'virus-free' too. As its user base is growing (and dare I say dumbing down?) there is an uptake on the amount of malware too...)

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    27. Re:xp still works by deroby · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Then do both, like I do... doubly-so.

      * I use the search function to start quite a lot of things
      but
      * I also use the 10-ish icons on the start-menu that represent the things I've worked with lately/often (not sure what the logic is, it works). Added bonus is that (a lot of them) are able to show a sub-menu with the most recent documents I worked with for that given program; I even can pin those if I want. Genius!
      * Old-school as I am I also revived the Quick-Launch toolbar and have like 20 icons of things that I work with most often.

      Yep, there is some overlap between 2 & 3, but as far as usability goes I am quite happy with this setup.

      PS: I don't like pinning stuff to my system-bar for some reason. Tried it, annoyed me and haven't done it ever since. Everyone's different I guess.

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    28. Re: xp still works by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 0

      I mean, besides it being much more difficult to change some settings like the startup splash and login screens and inability to turn off touch pad click without administration rights, there is the incredibly annoying UI flow to do something as simple as shutting down (are you Sure?, are you sure?, are you sure?), there is the whole needing to upgrade two generations of hardware to get the same performance from the same game on the same settings in W7 over XP. That, and you still have the major problems (like that idiotic registry and disk fragmentation) from XP.

      There are many reasons why users wouldn't want to switch, and nothing to do with stubbornness.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    29. Re:xp still works by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Not following you... XP didn't support >4GB memory. The hacks I were referring to involved dumping pieces of 2003 and registry tweaks into your XP install to enable PAE mode. Nothing to do with the P2 processor.

    30. Re:xp still works by jrumney · · Score: 2

      The biggest barrier to an organized start menu on Windows is that every program you install wants to put an uninstall icon, the user manual in several formats and/or languages, a link to the developer's website and bunch of other stuff in the start menu that doesn't belong there.

    31. Re:xp still works by jrumney · · Score: 1

      Then who gets it right? Linux does.

      I'm not sure if you're talking about Gnome 3, Unity or KDE 4 here, or something else perhaps. Linux itself is a kernel, it doesn't have any categorization system for programs.

    32. Re:xp still works by jrumney · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I do not care about the menus as I am so hooked on instant search now that I cant live without it.

      Sorry I lost faith in Linux after gnome 3.

      This is a strange combination of comments, because the changes from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3 were to deemphasize the application menus and introduce search as the primary way for interacting with the shell.

    33. Re:xp still works by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      64 bit OS, allowing >4GB memory? There were hacks, and there was XP64, but neither of those really count as solutions

      Of course XP64 counts. It's XP and it's 64 bit. It had a couple of problems initally due to bad driver support but that's no longer a problem. You can often install it today on a modern PC without much problems.

      SSD Trim support?

      I'm not sure about other vendors but at least Intel enabled this using a tool they call Intel SSD Toolbox. Just schedule it to run every once in a while.

    34. Re:xp still works by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Linux malware is hard to write, although the SCTP vulnerability last year would have allowed a worm that ran in kernelspace and didn't depend on any installed software. Ubuntu malware, or Android malware, however, are quite easy. That 0.1% figure for Android malware in comparison to Windows malware is probably just about true if you're counting all malware written for both platforms since they were introduced, irrespective of whether it works on recent versions, but it's nowhere near close if you're counting new malware. Take a look at this list and tell me that a widely deployed Linux distribution is hard to write malware for. For example, the CURL CVE-2013-2174 allows a remote attacker with a crafted URL to run arbitrary code, and CVE-2013-1697 in Mozilla allows HTML emails displayed with Thunderbird or web pages displayed with FireFox to execute JavaScript with a privilege level that allows it to make calls to native libraries, effectively meaning arbitrary code execution with ambient privilege. CVE-2013-1052 would allow either of these attacks to upgrade privilege and then install a rootkit.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    35. Re:xp still works by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      Doesn't the Windows search box include a calculator? The OS X one allows you to type expressions in and then copy the result. command-space, enter expression, command-c, escape, and you're back where you started with the result of the calculation in the pasteboard.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    36. Re:xp still works by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry you are wrong, Vista and 7 brought a LOT to the table, in fact a LOT of the teething problems with Vista were due to the increased security and no longer running as admin, both were sorely needed. Contrast this with XP that will let ANYTHING from anywhere run, local, web, it don't care where its from it ALL runs at the same rights as the user and many programs simply won't run well or at all if you remove admin rights.

      On top of that 7 brought a lot of good changes, for examples Homegroups make setting up file sharing on a LAN as easy as putting in a single password, Windows Remote Assistance is a lifesaver and is easy enough to use I've walked little old ladies over the phone through the steps to let me remote in and fix their PCs, jumplists and breadcrumbs make getting around the file system a breeze, it finally brought a sane memory manager to Windows, unlike XP which will slam the swap while plenty of memory is free 7 will use that free mem for caching most used programs, its just a much better OS all around.

      That said lets cut through the bullshit and talk about the REAL reason so many are hanging onto XP for dear life...Windows 8. They claim Win 8 is "easy to use" but that is bullshit, I have given it to Joe Average and seen the frustration, even my own dad who wanted a new Core i3 laptop and got Win 8 with it lasted a whole 4 days before I had to put Start8 in and from the way he is talking I'll probably be ordering a copy of Win 7 for him before the end of the week. XP was low resource, relatively stable, and simple to navigate. Win 8 is bloated by metro and all the bling, comes with fricking ads by default which is just disgusting and shows how low MSFT has sunk when you can't even buy an ad free version of the damned OS from MSFT themselves, and Win 8.1 just adds insult to injury by not only not fixing the problems the average user has with the OS but they added a Goatse by saying "We brought back the start screen!" only to have it...drumroll...take you back to the fucking metro you were trying to get away from!

      But if you want to stay on XP...why not? as long as you have a REAL firewall instead of that one way only joke firewall in XP, along with a decent AV which I would recommend Comodo Internet Security Free as it has firewall and AV rolled into one (you can have just one or the other if you don't need both) and can integrate with Comodo dragon and Icedragon browsers to add sandboxing of the browser which of course is the largest attack vector there is.

      But if you don't want to get stuck with Win 8 you might want to get a Win 7 system now because once MSFT pulls the plug I'm sure companies will begin phasing out support for XP just as they did for Win2K. Of course none of this applies if you are using XP offline but if that is the case none of this really matters anyway, its all moot.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    37. Re:xp still works by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Funny

      Uhhh...you wanna explain how a million infected devices is 0.1% Miss AC? because i REALLY want to hear the logic hoops you pull out of your behind to explain the evidence away, i REALLY do.

      Like it or not Android, which every Linux advocate has claimed as their own from day one, proves beyond a reasonable doubt what so many of us have said for so long...OSes are some of the most complex code ever written and because man is fallible there IS bugs which WILL be exploited once a target becomes big enough which tada! Is EXACTLY what happened when Linux on mobile went mainstream with Android.

      So welcome to the club, the coffee is in the back, ignore the guy rocking in the corner as that is Mac who felt like you he had magic armor and then he got a beatdown from macDefender and Guardian and is still traumatized. I don't know what they did to him but considering he's been like that for awhile and keeps muttering "You shore are purty"? Probably best not to ask.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    38. Re: xp still works by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      you could make a shortcut to sd.bat with sd.bat = shutdown /s

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    39. Re:xp still works by RabidReindeer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Linux might never see the sheer volume of malware that exists for Windows because it's "late in the game" and because simply put both the developers and the users have learnt quite a bit over the years making it harder for viruses etc to propagate.

      Thank you for not saying "virii". You've actually used the correct plural.

      The main reason why Linux is more secure is history. Linux is descended from Unix, and Unix spent its formative years in University labs where students would routinely prank each other. Of necessity, Unix grew up with security being an issue almost from Day 1.

      In contrast, Windows grew out of DOS. Unlike Unix, where people were sharing a computer and had to play nice together, DOS was an environment where you owned everything, lock, stock and barrel. The thrust of the design was on usability, not on security. As a result, several fundamental system components were designed insecure and it was difficult-to-impossible to retrofit security on them.

    40. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [...] but we dont worry about updates, since these dont connect to the web. m$ is going to be a dinosaur very soon, the signs are there....

      Neither were any of Iran's centrifuge machines, but Stuxnet still managed to jump the the air gap. The US DoD also was hit like this as well.

    41. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1200 workstations still on XP, the Win7 count is around 2000
      whats the reason ? Cost and benefit.
      Cheapest way to continue is to go VDI

    42. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ctrl-alt-C. Two keys less to press ;-)

      Admittedly, it does take an extra step to set up first (right click on the Calculator icon, chose properties, set keyboard shortcut).

      Also, Win+CAL+ENTER may not launch Calculator on all systems (it launches Calibre on mine, for instance), requiring a loss of focus or extra keypresses to select the correct option.

    43. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plenty of Linux web servers are infected and doing their part to keep the botnets thriving. Were they infected via the OS itself? No, it was a third party application or service, but that's the same vector that most other computing devices that get compromised.

      As far as I can tell they only platform I use that can't get infected is my whiteboard. Not the fancy schmancy electronic kind, but the good old fashioned "at least it's not a chalkboard" kind. Unfortunately by whiteboard is not immune to drive-by wipes and malicious graffiti, nor does it have an "Undo" function. Nothing is perfect.

    44. Re:xp still works by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      In contrast, Windows grew out of VMS.

      FTFY.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    45. Re:xp still works by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2, Informative

      While what you say has some truth, the part you leave out is that the attacks against Android were not against the linux kernel used by Android, but the Android specific parts. So, while while your numbers may be accurate as they quote Trendmicro, they misrepresent the reality. Just as a vulnerability in Firefox is not a linux vulnerability, even though Firefox ships with most linux distributions, likewise, a vulnerability found in the Google specific Android pieces does not make it a linux kernel vulnerability. If those pieces were tied directly into the kernel by the kernel developers, that would be different. But just like if I raise my Jeep and it becomes unstable when cornering, that doesn't mean it is a problem with all Jeeps, Google, modifying specific pieces of "linux" does not mean that the vulnerability is a problem with linux.

    46. Re:xp still works by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      Sorry I lost faith in Linux after gnome 3. Windoes 8 might make me reconsider though :-)

      There are alternatives to gnome 3. Xfce was pretty much like Gnome 2 and KDE could be made to look and work like just about anything. So, if gnome 3 pushed you away from linux, chances are you were already dissatisfied before gnome 3 and just needed an excuse. It's just too bad that Gnome 3 was released when it was. 3.8 is pretty usuable and the upcoming 3.10 looks better yet. But not to start a desktop war, as I stated, there are many alternatives, even if Gnome 3 isn't to one's liking, choose a different one.

    47. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love how if you don't like a product now, its because you don't like change or your old. Stupid Slash idiots. I personally get tired of a new version of anything every two years or so.

    48. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would a search box include a calculator?

    49. Re:xp still works by chris.alex.thomas · · Score: 1

      only because they never got it to compile....

    50. Re:xp still works by laffer1 · · Score: 1

      Google does.. i actually just throw things into chrome's address bar at work.

    51. Re:xp still works by InsGadget · · Score: 1

      Sure about that? This was just in the news yesterday.

    52. Re:xp still works by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      OMG are you REALLY gonna drag out the old "Its not the OS, its the kernel" bullshit? Really? because by that logic windows is 100% bug free as well since no bug that I know of attacks the WinNT kernel but the stuff above it as well.

      I'm sorry dude but that bullshit won't fly, a kernel with nothing else is fricking worthless and every. single. mainstream. distro all come with the SAME APPS over and over AND OVER so that shit ain't gonna fly. Firefox, Chromium, Gimp, Libre office, you'll find those on pretty much every mainstream desktop distro there is so if any of those are pwned then yes Virginia Linux is pwned.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    53. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you actually used win8 for any significant time? I spent ~4 months on win8 and was then forced to move back to win7 on my work laptop due to standards issues. My biggest surprise was that I actually miss the new start screen.

    54. Re:xp still works by Krneki · · Score: 2

      There is one huge difference, Windows malware spread across Windows network protocol with ease. On the other hand SSH can't be compromised, so even if you have a virus on your Linux server it won't spread to the next box.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    55. Re: xp still works by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I'm throwing a flag, bullshit on the field. I'm typing this on a first gen Core Celeron (Conroe i think) with 1.5GB of RAM and a 200GB IDE drive in it and Win 7 runs just fine, the only "tweaks" I did was turned off Aero because i have a black windows basic theme I prefer and that was it, runs fine.

      If you are running anything older than that most likely you are running a P4 and the amount of heat and power those things blow through make them well worth upgrading to something a little newer. If you want to turn an ancient P4 into a Win 7 capable box on the cheap I'd suggest an AMD Bobcat board, those can be had for around $80 on Amazon and not only do they curbstomp a P4 but they use less power under full load than a P4 does idling, well worth the switch.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    56. Re:xp still works by Bert64 · · Score: 2

      There is linux malware and has been for years (ie rootkits, look for lrk or t0rnkit), and there is android malware floating around there these days. Linux has long had sufficient marketshare in several markets which are attractive to hackers (servers, firewalls, appliances, supercomputers etc) and there has never been a shortage of people trying to compromise linux boxes and install malicious code onto them.

      The point is that while linux isn't immune from malware, it is considerably less susceptible to it than windows for a number of reasons, both in traditional server deployments and in end user deployments.

      --
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    57. Re:xp still works by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Nope. Windows grew out of MS-DOS.

      At best it is MS-DOS bolted on top of VMS.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    58. Re:xp still works by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      The nature of the malware with Linux and Unix in general is different. Unix malware is mainly user installed trojans that depend entirely upon social engineering.

      This is in stark contrast to the Windows kind that require no cooperation from the end user. One depends on users to install bad apps, while the other is simply a matter of engineering choices so bad that the rest of the industry warned them repeatedly.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    59. Re:xp still works by devent · · Score: 1

      And I don't understand why people want that. If I would want to have "search as the primary way for interacting with the shell" then I would use the terminal in Linux.

      --
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    60. Re:xp still works by WuphonsReach · · Score: 3, Informative

      The main reason why Linux is more secure is history. Linux is descended from Unix, and Unix spent its formative years in University labs where students would routinely prank each other. Of necessity, Unix grew up with security being an issue almost from Day 1.

      That's a bit revisionist. Early unix was horribly insecure at multi-user stuff. It took a long while before security became something important in design.

      Easiest example to name is the storage of passwords in /etc/passwd. Since the file was readable by everyone, it was easy to grab the hashes and perform offline attacks. I'm not even sure that early password hashes were salted in unix, which meant that if you could crack one account you could easily see that your password would match accounts X, Y and Z.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    61. Re:xp still works by Lisias · · Score: 1

      There are alternatives to gnome 3. Xfce was pretty much like Gnome 2 and KDE could be made to look and work like just about anything.

      The problem were that I was already have an usable, useful and enjoyable desktop on my production machine.

      That thing was working fine, working well and I was satisfied. My working-flow just works, and the (very few) quirks on Gnome 2 was already know and workarounded. My Gnome 2 Desktop machine was simply the best user experience I ever had on a professional machine, it suited perfectly to my needs and expectations.

      I didn't wanted to waste time migrating Desktop, that's was the problem.

      When it was clear to me that Gnome 2 was dead, that OpenSUSE would not provide me a Gnome 2 alternative before i had to update my already aging OpenSUSE 11.4, so in order to have MATE (or Cinnamon, but MATE was Gnome 2 already!) I would need to switch distro - another HUGE pain in the ass, as I still in love with YAST2.

      So I did what the grand-parent apparently did. If I were going to spend huge time and efforts on a new Professional Setup, better do it on a more stable system. I gone for a MacMini - the cheapest Mac that does the job for me.

      Make no mistake about it, I still missing my OpenSUSE 11.4 / Gnome 2 setup. MacOSX *is* a wonderful O.S. to work with, but hostile to hacking. It's the MacOS way, or the highway. However, I can cope with this O.S. idiosyncrasies - and if the worst comes to happen, there's X where I can run that Linux programs I still need.

      And now, 2 years later, this does not matter anymore. I already spend the money, the time and the efforts to migrate to MacOSX. Until Apple make some epic fuckup as Gnome Foundation did, I'm in my comfort zone and don't have a single reason to migrate back to Linux (I want YAST2 *and* Gnome2/Make - without them, I don't even consider the idea).

      Everything is working fine now.

      So, if gnome 3 pushed you away from linux, chances are you were already dissatisfied before gnome 3 and just needed an excuse.

      You are plain wrong. People use computers to solve problems, not to get problems.

      If switching to MacOS X is easier and less painful than switching a Desktop, people will do it.

      There's once a time that Linux were the only viable alternative to a usable and cheap UNIX machine for the common user. That times are gone. I think you should deal with it.

      --
      Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
    62. Re:xp still works by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      A million infected devices, vs roughly 1 billion android devices activated with google (http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/122459-1-5m-android-devices-activated-daily-1-billion-total-devices-on-horizon) comes out at 0.1%.

      That's not counting all the android devices which are not registered with google, and these devices are also generally more likely to be infected with malware as users will usually be installing random downloaded junk rather than using the play store.

      As always, stats cannot be truly accurate, in either case, but based on the published numbers the 0.1% figure is correct.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    63. Re:xp still works by jimicus · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about?

      Windows '9x grew out of DOS. Windows 7 grew out NT, which was most definitely designed with security in mind.

      The issues Windows face are more to do with:

        - Application developers that release business applications with a note saying "This must be run as an administrator" and sysadmins who allow this.
          - I don't think I've ever seen an application that did anything technical that required admin rights, or at least couldn't be easily done in a fashion that would eliminate this requirement. I suspect the problem stems from software developers being given admin rights over their own workstation, never bothering to test whether their code would work without admin rights and simply tacking such a note into the user manual. I suspect UAC has had more to do with forcing developers to deal with this than anything else - it was never designed to have that impact but it means that a developer can't say in a meeting that they didn't know what they were doing required admin rights.
        - Poor separation of privileges in terms of user-interface. Prior to Vista, Windows made basically no effort whatsoever to force users into carrying out day-to-day tasks in an unprivileged account. So you wind up with a hell of a lot of computers in small businesses and privately owned that have perfectly good security on paper but it's been castrated in practise.
          - This plays back into the third-party software issues I discussed above. What's the point in worrying about making sure it runs as an unprivileged user when you can demand users run it as an admin and for the most part, you'll receive precisely zero push back?
        - An obsession with compatibility at all costs. Great, so you can run software coded for Windows '95 under Windows 7, even though the two operating systems share very little code under the hood. But this means that if you insist on running such software - and if it was written on the assumption it'd be running in '9x - there's every chance it forces you to cripple your own security in order to operate.
        - A new attack vector to guard against. The effects are most pronounced on Windows today, but it affects every OS on the planet and is not solvable with current technology. Protecting the user from themselves.

    64. Re:xp still works by Politburo · · Score: 1

      "The search feature is definitely a boon, but I don't feel it's panacea. If you just want to browse the software on somebody's computer, or if you forgot the name of the program you want to run, the search feature is no help."

      No shit. That's what "all programs" is for.

    65. Re:xp still works by jimicus · · Score: 1

      That 0.1% figure for Android malware in comparison to Windows malware is probably just about true if you're counting all malware written for both platforms since they were introduced, irrespective of whether it works on recent versions,

      That's a very good point. Every major AV vendor has a gigantic encyclopaedia of malware, but I wonder how much of the malware in that encyclopaedia would even run in a modern OS?

    66. Re:xp still works by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Informative

      And categorise by vendor rather than what the application does, because trying to promote your company brand is more important than letting users easily find the applications they need.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    67. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was told the same thing about a custom written program.
      This program that was written back in 1998 that ran on NT could not run on 2003. Guess what it did. No it will not run on 2008. Guess what it did. The way around installing it on 2008 was you just could not run the install. Took the files and reg keys from the 2003 put them on 2008 and it ran with no issues. Then took the reg keys and got them to work on 2008 R2. And the same files and reg keys also work on win 8.
      We are now finely retiring the program so I have not tested it on 2012 yet.
      Maybe get it a try it might work.

    68. Re:xp still works by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      I'd like to offer a third-order thanks. After all, what is /. without snotty recursion?

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    69. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ... and I thank your third order of thanks with my own thanks, thus proving my intellectual superiority for taking a dead horse and not only beating it, but drawing, quartering, immolating and finally disintegrating it.

    70. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DOS users are adviced to update to FreeDOS.
      Windows users are adviced to switch to ReactOS. Or update to Linux or BSD.

    71. Re:xp still works by Imagix · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's a bit revisionist. Early unix was horribly insecure at multi-user stuff. It took a long while before security became something important in design. Easiest example to name is the storage of passwords in /etc/passwd. Since the file was readable by everyone, it was easy to grab the hashes and perform offline attacks. I'm not even sure that early password hashes were salted in unix, which meant that if you could crack one account you could easily see that your password would match accounts X, Y and Z.

      Speaking of revisionist... those attack methods did not exist (more accurately, had not been conceived of) at the time. Which is why salting came in (trying to counter both the "same password on two machines" and making it harder to create a rainbow table), and then afterwards the shadow password file (so that normal mortals can't get a hold of even the encrypted password). For the longest time MD5 and DES were both considered secure, was it an error to rely on them 20 years ago?

    72. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But on the other hand these are two completly different situations. When there's a bug in Windows a guy from half around the world can take complete control over your PC (vide MSBlast or Sasser). When there's a bug in Linux to exploit you'd need to have a local account on the system, the kernel would have to be compiled without SMP or heap randomization.

    73. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so is an adobe flash vulnerability a windows vulnerability?

    74. Re:xp still works by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      The main reason why Linux is more secure is history. Linux is descended from Unix, and Unix spent its formative years in University labs where students would routinely prank each other. Of necessity, Unix grew up with security being an issue almost from Day 1.

      That's a bit revisionist. Early unix was horribly insecure at multi-user stuff. It took a long while before security became something important in design.

      Easiest example to name is the storage of passwords in /etc/passwd. Since the file was readable by everyone, it was easy to grab the hashes and perform offline attacks. I'm not even sure that early password hashes were salted in unix, which meant that if you could crack one account you could easily see that your password would match accounts X, Y and Z.

      Not revisionist. I never said that Unix was designed totally secure from Day 1, just that it spent its formative years in unfriendly environments. Even before users started attacking each other, it had a need to keep things isolated from each other, however, just to maintain separate user/process identities. Windows/DOS started out with a single identity, so a lot of those isolation mechanisms were things that had to be added on after certain unfortunate fundamental mechanisms had become an inextricable part of the core OS architecture.

    75. Re:xp still works by RabidReindeer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What are you talking about?

      Windows '9x grew out of DOS. Windows 7 grew out NT, which was most definitely designed with security in mind.

      I would argue that "pure" NT is more secure than pre-selinux Linux or Unix. Selinux is something whose true security I have never been able to calculate. unlike NT or IBM's (mainframe) RACF, the rules and support mechanisms are hard to fathom. So hard, in fact, that a lot of people give up, switch it off, and thus defeat its purpose.

      However, nothing runs "pure" NT. NT was forced to accept the Windows Gang of 3 core DLLs inherited from the DOS-based Windows predecessors, and they required wedging the security door open in order to remain backwards compatibility. Which is basically the same sort of problem as the Selinux complexity issue except that if you turn off Selinux, it's your own fault, not a core OS design decision.

      You have enumerated and expanded on those precise problems and I can't state it any better. The only thing I can can is Who the $%@!! thought that a Web Browser needed to be (squeaky Steve Ballmer voice quote) "An Integral Part of Windows" as stated in the anti-trust trial. What actual advantage did it give? No other OS I know of puts the web browser code into the OS itself and I've yet to see any performance or capability advantages that Windows has over those other systems in that realm. Security holes, yes. Actual advantages, no.

    76. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have one XP box I use only as network storage and running EAC. There's no way the old thing will run Win7 (not that I'd willingly buy it anyway), and I can't find a good alternative to EAC; after sampling an LP I can have it on CD in less than five minutes, an hour with Audacity. And that hour isn't just waiting, it's cutting, pasting, saving, cutting, pasting, saving. EAC lets me simply mark the file where the tracks separate and it burns the CD.

      I'd rather run kubuntu than any version of Windows, that's what's on my other tower. I'll either unplug the XP computer from the network and use sneakernet or, more likely since I need its storage space, just unwillingly "let" the Russian Mafia use it as a spam server like almost everybody else. You think spam is bad now, wait until the over 1/3 of internet users can't get patches any more.

      My car was manufactured the same year XP was released, but if a safety defect is found in it, the manufacturer will recall and fix it at no cost to me. IMO it's more than shameful that MS will not continue to support it. The DOJ should charge MS with contributing to computerized crime. After this time next year, when you get spam you can blame Ballmer.

      My other Windows computer is running seven. It's getting dog slow and it's only two years old, so kubuntu will be on it soon. Windows machines get slower with every "upgrade" while Linux computers get faster with each upgrade (with a few exceptional clusterfucks Ubuntu has made).

    77. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 3.x and 9.x grew from DOS, Windows NT not only grew from VMS, but was designed by David Cutler to boot. Your premise is a lie, and your conclusion baseless.

    78. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Laughable. You nerds trumpet from the hilltops that Linu has won on the mobile space because Android == Linux, but then when Android falls victim to malware you say "Oh well... *technically* Linux wasn't compromised because the *kernel* wasn't tareted, it was userspace. Linux is still king!" What's the saying about having cake and eating it?

      If you didn't know, most Windows malware runs in userspace, and is the result of vulnerabilites in programs like Flash and Java. They are worms and trojans which piggy-back on useful looking software and exploit user trust to gain access to your system and steal your data.... which is exactly the kind of malware rampent on Android. So keep plugging your ears and pretending everything is find in Linux land, but that doesn't change the fact that people are infected by malware, in the millions, on Linux-based systems.

    79. Re:xp still works by deroby · · Score: 1

      Good question, was the Kernel of Ubuntu released in August 2001 built with or without those options ?
      (oh wait...)

      I really don't get you guys. Throwing around expensive terms and stuff but failing to do some basic reading upfront.
      I'll help you : I'm assuming that by 'heap randomization' you're referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization
      You might want to read up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization#Linux and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization#Microsoft_Windows

      I'm not sure why you'd want to bring SMP into this discussion... (unless you mean there is somehting like SMP randomization which in that case I've no knowledge of)

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    80. Re:xp still works by jasax · · Score: 1

      I still run 3 desktops (2 of them very often, none of those 3 is a server) with Win 2K professional. Only recently I had some problems (recent USB 3.0 pen drives getting a few corrupted files). I've **never** had to reinstall Win2K in 10 yrs, and the only mark of a virus (I got infected only a couple of times) I've ever had was a crippled Excel binary due to "quarantining" in one of the PCs: precisely the one where I'm writing this text.

      The only AV I use is some free tool named "Regrun Reanimator-Partizan" (google, perhaps most of you don't know about it - I run a simple scan with it a couple of times a month). The "normal" AVs (free or not) are heavy has hell in 1-core old HW and, besides that, ineffective to recently disclosed attacks.

      Then, why switch the machines (or OS)? Well, my HW is 10-yrs old, and the hard disks one of these days will blow. Low memory is also a problem nowadays (the other day I tried to double from 1 GB to 2 GB in one of them and the moron PC stopped booting...), with the bloated memory-eating browsers (and web pages, with Java, Javascript, HTML5 and Flash, all running in parallel). So I'll leave Win2K mostly because of HW issues, not SW issues.

    81. Re:xp still works by mlts · · Score: 1

      Even well-made operating systems like BSD and Linux are not infallible. That ship has sailed long ago, where the core security in the enterprise comes from the network [1] as opposed to being host based.

      After networking, then comes the hypervisor. When an external web server gets compromised and the IDS or SAN based malware scanner (which checks the presented logical drives) sees something awry, the machine gets frozen, snapshotted (for forensic reasons), and rolled back to a known good image automatically. Of course, this won't go well for stateful things like RDBMS servers that are not clustered, but other tasks like front end web servers, having the ability to automatically stop, drop, and roll tends to be an advantage.

      This doesn't say that OS security doesn't matter. However, it is a front that is a place of heavy fighting, and usually it is only a matter of time (and zero days) before a machine gets compromised. There are things that one can do which can slow this down (such as the way AIX can completely disable root so that no process has any super-user context whatsoever), but it will always be an arms race with the current operating system security models we have, especially with the way we have user contexts and application contexts the same for almost everything (unless one is using a system like SELinux which can split those.)

      With more filesystems with deduplication capability coupled with RAM compression (Windows Server 2012 for example), it is becoming easier to deploy more virtual machines just to service one app. This minimizes the damage that OS compromise can do, especially if proper firewalling is done.

      [1]: Core/edge firewalling, NAC, healthchecks, IDS/IPS items, etc. The main defense against compromise these days in a company is the IPS clamping down on a machine.

      [2]: Most hypervisors tend to not even be available on a network, with their tools limited to an admin network. It isn't impossible, but it is very difficult to punch through a level 1 hypervisor (Hyper-V, VMWare) and jump from one machine to another.

    82. Re:xp still works by SiChemist · · Score: 2

      My switch to Linux was decided when I accidentally mistyped a url into my web browser while running Win2K and was instantly pwnd. I was dual booting at the time and I decided that Linux needed to be my daily driver to avoid being so easily attacked.

    83. Re:xp still works by KingMotley · · Score: 3, Informative

      Only the Windows 3.1 line grew out of MS-DOS, and the last in that line was Windows ME. The NT line grew out of VMS, which became Windows 95.

    84. Re:xp still works by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      oops, I meant became Windows XP.

    85. Re:xp still works by frinkster · · Score: 1

      When I am on a Windows 7 if I am thinking of something I wrote 3 years ago I just hit th windows key and type acme sales 2010 and enter to find the documents. Beagle under Linux tried similiar functionalty.

      That's exactly how Windows 8 works. The windows key takes you to the metro desktop and when you type something on the metro desktop Windows 8 assumes you are trying to find something (why else would you type something at the metro desktop) and does a search for what you've typed.

      Well, except that on Windows 8 you don't have to hit enter. It starts searching as soon as you start typing, so you would have probably found your document by the type you wrote "acme"

    86. Re:xp still works by mlts · · Score: 1

      A lot of Vista's problems is because third party driver vendors were dragged kicking and screaming to the administrator/user model, where having full admin rights was not just handed out to anything that asked for it. Oftentimes, a vendor would ship a buggy driver or application, then blame that fact on Microsoft and UAC.

      Windows 7 was a lot better because the driver model has been established (with few excuses or loopholes for third parties to weasel through), and that LocalAdmin or even LocalSystem were not Bog-given rights to any program that demanded them.

      Of course, MS wasn't totally innocent. What made Vista slow for me were services like the filesystem search/indexing service, which was like a UNIX machine running continual finds down all filesystems and choking I/O. Once that was disabled, Vista ran decently.

      All and all, security model change was a good security improvement. A lot of malware I have seen doesn't even try for Administrator access anymore; it just sticks in the user context, running a keylogger and doing its dirty deeds there.

    87. Re:xp still works by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      I still use Windows XP and Windows 2000. They were good operating systems and, from my perspective, Vista, 7, and 8 haven't brought anything to the table. Quite the opposite, in fact: I went full penguin after Vista came out. It was patently clear that Microsoft was going in a direction I didn't want to go.

      Yes, but what of the botnets? Who will take care of them? Without care and feeding of ineffective security updates to make users believe they are safe from such things, the botnets will wither and die.

      Based on the originating addresses of the shit in my firewall logs, "not having patches available" won't make a wit of difference to the Chinese.

      They aren't patching now! And they are rife with security holes and compromised computers already.

      My guess is a good portion of XP boxes in that area of the world are pirated Windows anyway.

    88. Re:xp still works by John+Bokma · · Score: 2

      Unix grew up with security being an issue almost from Day 1.

      Day 1? Hah! A nice story but it sure isn't true. I clearly recall that in the early 90's it was still no problem to login to a machine someone else was working on and change the background image of the root window of someone else's session... The days of telnet and ftp...

    89. Re:xp still works by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      If you had clicked the link, you'd see it's a pic of Mint with Cinnamon, but other environments do the same.

    90. Re:xp still works by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Wow, Slashdot has grown up well over the years. You used to hear endless taunts here from people talking about lousy Windows up-times. They always assumed I was an advocate of Windows NT Server when I was, in fact, nothing of the sort. They failed to realize that Windows with no qualifiers implied "desktop" because that was its real heritage. They failed to realize that months-long uptime was a meaningless metric for most users because they turned their machine off at the end of the day. Full-day uptimes were routine for me by Windows 98. There was also a great deal of eagerness to "blame Windows first". I even fell pray to this myself one time, until I discovered that the machine had faulty DIMMs.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    91. Re:xp still works by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Actually XP always supported PAE, PAE is even required to enable the NX bit which XP will use by default on processors which support it.
      XP from SP2 onwards has a licensing restriction which causes it to ignore any address space above 4GB, but that is entirely different from not supporting PAE. See http://www.geoffchappell.com/notes/windows/license/memory.htm

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    92. Re:xp still works by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Linux is descended from Unix, and Unix spent its formative years in University labs where students would routinely prank each other.

      When I was in my first year of computer science and learned about C's fork command, I immediately logged onto the Solaris cluster and put a fork inside an infinite loop. With sheer joy I compiled my deviously clever application, and executed a.out as I scanned the lab to watch in delight as everyones sessions started failing, as my masterstroke software began consuming unlimited resources, exponentially! HAHAHA!

      Stupid buzzkill admins..

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    93. Re:xp still works by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      64 bit OS, allowing >4GB memory? There were hacks, and there was XP64, but neither of those really count as solutions

      I am typing this on xp x64. Why is this OS not a 'solution'? I find XP easier to use and my sound card works in it. The card doesn't have working drivers for Win7 or Linux.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    94. Re:xp still works by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Linux is pretty much obvious to start menus, That's Gnome that's doing it right, KDE does as well. What does break in KDE and probably Gnome is if you modify a programs position in the hierarchy, it gives the package manager fits on updates. I upgraded my windows box from windows 3.1 to windows ninety five and all went well, when I eventually got a clean install if ninety five, I was pissed that file manager wasn't there!

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    95. Re:xp still works by tibit · · Score: 1

      So, in other words, you really like command line interface with a unified filename and contents namespace, and completion, right?

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    96. Re:xp still works by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      but some people are very slow at typing

    97. Re:xp still works by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      I think Hairy the reason is human psychology. Once actions are repeated it goes to the part of the brqin that deals with routines. Mess with the routine by changing the reflexes of XP UI, its colors, its outdated 3 layers of nested menus in Office 2k3, and you have resistence based on irrational fear of change. Users have invested so much into this way of thinking and routine that the arguement turns from not why Windows 7 is better, but why leave what works?

      You mention benefits and the first thought is how do I downplay Hairys reasoning?. I watch restaurant impossible impossible on the food network. You wouldnt believe the resistence to change from owners when confronted. Worse chef Irvine puts fresh ingredients for dishes with many fans, yet older patrons want the the usual frozen and crappy version "Their usual."

    98. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DOS still works too, if you find the right hardware to run it on or use it in a virtual machine. Does that mean we should all be using DOS?

      I think after a third of the world's computers can no longer be patched, you're going to see a LOT more DoS attacks!

    99. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and come April 8, 2014 it will finally be stable.

    100. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People that still use xp are dumb.

    101. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the part about how the kernel was dramatically overhauled for Vista (and subsequent versions) to keep the bullshit drivers used by most hardware manufacturers out of the kernel ring thus dramatically increasing the stability of the base operating system. Not to mention the OS being much more secure in just about every single measurable way... but ya, other than those minor things, XP and VW78 are "basically the same"...

      -AC

    102. Re:xp still works by Ravaldy · · Score: 1

      Wow, your drastic. Guess if your Ford car engine fails this means you'll go get a Kia? Weird reasoning.

      BTW, when is the end of support for Linux? Right, it's never since there isn't any.

    103. Re:xp still works by Ravaldy · · Score: 1

      We have legacy issues here too. Nothing changes. Those that can will move to Windows 7 or 8 and those that can't will run VM or leave the machines off the internet like we do here.

    104. Re:xp still works by childproof · · Score: 1

      From a homegroup perspective w7 may be better but in my point of view, the routing, port forwarding, nat, firewall features available from netsh that have been removed after XP are a big loss. It was not linux iptables but for a windows machine it was impressive.

    105. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG! You killed the English language. I tried reading what you'd written, but it just hurt my eyes too much. Enjoy your XP while the rest of us move on.

    106. Re:xp still works by steveg · · Score: 1

      True. XP's Fisher-Price interface was designed for a younger crowd.

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    107. Re:xp still works by steveg · · Score: 1

      An hour with Audacity?

      Sure, it doesn't burn the CD itself, and you have to mark the beginnings *AND* endings of the tracks, but ten minutes tops. Or have you not discovered "Export multiple?"

      Personally, I spend far more than an hour on each LP in Audacity, but that's mostly hand editing pops and clicks.

      Oh, and my turntables introduces some LF noise, under 10Hz. I always filter that out and that takes another 3 minutes of processing.

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    108. Re:xp still works by steveg · · Score: 1

      I think they call that "Stockholm Syndrome." :)

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    109. Re:xp still works by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      While what you say has some truth, the part you leave out is that the attacks against Android were not against the linux kernel used by Android, but the Android specific parts. So, while while your numbers may be accurate as they quote Trendmicro, they misrepresent the reality. Just as a vulnerability in Firefox is not a linux vulnerability, even though Firefox ships with most linux distributions, likewise, a vulnerability found in the Google specific Android pieces does not make it a linux kernel vulnerability. If those pieces were tied directly into the kernel by the kernel developers, that would be different. But just like if I raise my Jeep and it becomes unstable when cornering, that doesn't mean it is a problem with all Jeeps, Google, modifying specific pieces of "linux" does not mean that the vulnerability is a problem with linux.

      You mean like this one?

    110. Re:xp still works by xkosh · · Score: 1

      Your not going to even touch Linux for desktop customization, so don't even try. We know all about LightStep. We know about StarDock. We know about EnviroDesk. We even know about Cygwin. We know everything. So. Tell us some more about instant desktop search. Right now. Before I beat you with this Nepomuk Semantic Search. If it's working today. If not, then I might just Dash you, Gnome Do you to death, or, if my buddy is here, he will Quicksilver you into smithereens. And that's all she wrote.

    111. Re:xp still works by Stanza · · Score: 1

      Using more than 4GB was a big reason I upgraded from WinXP.

      Other than that... well I use XP in virtual machines a lot still, and for work, and...

    112. Re:xp still works by sjames · · Score: 1

      What's funny is that all the shenanigans and bad ideas MS promoted to hook the customer and lock them in worked too well. The customer is so locked in that they cannot upgrade.

    113. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. MS-DOS was still the underlying operating system for the Windows "shell" from Windows 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, 4.0 (Windows 95), 4.1 (Windows 98), 4.9 (Windows ME).

      The NT kernel started with NT 2.x, 3.x, 4.x, 5.0 (Windows 2000), 5.1 (Windows XP), 6.0 (Windows Vista), 6.1 (Windows "7"), and Windows 8 (not sure the kernel version on Win8 yet since I've so far successfully avoided it).

    114. Re:xp still works by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      By that logic then all the Win9X machines rotting in the junkyard also count as installs as what matters is how many of them are being actually used and considering I have 3 Android devices in the trash and another dozen in sock drawers of various family members? I can tell you that plenty of those devices ain't in service no more chum.

      Drinks get spilled, OEM refuses to update, phone is too old and slow,gets pwned by malware, lots of reasons to no longer use an Android device, just as there are plenty of reasons to toss an old Windows box but MSFT isn't trying to claim every Windows install is still in service and when i see something by a third party like netstat with some real usage numbers? THEN we'll talk, otherwise that's just press release bullshit.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    115. Re:xp still works by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That might have held water except that Android phones vastly outnumber Windows phones and certainly would be a sweet target for a virus.

      Servers are also a sweet target and Linux has had Windows outnumbered there for quite some time.

      I wouldn't claim there is no Linux malware or that there won't be more, but it is notably rare in spite of some of the sweetest targets out there running Linux.

      Likewise, there exists malware for Apple, but not in proportion to it's popularity. It genuinely looks like Windows is a soft target even with the confounding factors accounted for.

      Linux also isn't particularly late in the game. While ads were gushing about the upcoming Windows '95, I was installing SLS Linux.

      The one thing that could screw that up is if a distro encourages new users to run as root so they can get the full 'Windows experience' they are used to.

      Remember, until MS came along, getting a virus from email was only a running gag. The idea that it could actually happen was absurd.

    116. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hahahahahaha

      Holy shit, I've never seen anyone use M$ before, is this some new epic meme?

      How hasn't this caught on?! xDDDDDD

    117. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is only due to the fact that Linux doesn't have a easy-to-use directory service, not due to any inherit features of the SSH protocol.

      Files spread between my *nix boxes with ease with public key authentication. Malware could too.

    118. Re:xp still works by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      OMG are you REALLY gonna drag out the old "Its not the OS, its the kernel" bullshit? Really? because by that logic windows is 100% bug free as well since no bug that I know of attacks the WinNT kernel but the stuff above it as well.

      I'm sorry dude but that bullshit won't fly, a kernel with nothing else is fricking worthless and every. single. mainstream. distro all come with the SAME APPS over and over AND OVER so that shit ain't gonna fly. Firefox, Chromium, Gimp, Libre office, you'll find those on pretty much every mainstream desktop distro there is so if any of those are pwned then yes Virginia Linux is pwned.

      Really? I can remove firefox from linux, I can't remove IE or most of the other "parts" that shipped with Windows. But surely even somebody as wise as you must be can tell the difference between Android and say Puppy Linux or Android's interface and KDE. If Google made a vulnerable OS based on the linux kernel (or if even Ubuntu did it), fine blame them, but then why not blame the BSDs for Apple's flaws with iOS and OS X?

      As for Firefox, Chromium, Libre Office, etc having a vulnerability meaning linux has a vulnerability, well, then that would mean Windows does too as they run on Windows right? Or, is it possible that an application can be vulnerable without the OS being the source of the problem?

      I'm not some zealot who professes linux is impenetrable or that it is the savour of everything, but at the same time, to call linux vulnerable because of what Google has tacked on top of it makes no sense. But hey, it's a free world, well most parts, so you are free to believe and spout whatever you want. But, we get it, you don't like linux, it's okay.

    119. Re:xp still works by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      I didn't wanted to waste time migrating Desktop, that's was the problem.

      Your argument is that it was too difficult to switch to a different linux desktop but then you switched to a Mac with OS X?

      You are plain wrong. People use computers to solve problems, not to get problems.

      If switching to MacOS X is easier and less painful than switching a Desktop, people will do it.

      In what universe is it easier to switch from Gnome 2 to Mac OS X versus a different linux desktop, say XFCE which was already 90% configured like Gnome 2 out of the box?

      Let me get this straight, other than the desktop interface, all of your applications and data would be the same if you stuck with linux. With a Mac, you had to transfer data and learn new apps. As for the interface, you stated that

      That thing was working fine, working well and I was satisfied. My working-flow just works, and the (very few) quirks on Gnome 2 was already know and workarounded. My Gnome 2 Desktop machine was simply the best user experience I ever had on a professional machine, it suited perfectly to my needs and expectations.

      and yet OS X is about as far from Gnome 2 as you could get. No, I think my original hypothesis was correct, you were already looking to switch to a Mac and this just gave you an excuse.

      That's fine. The Mac OS X is a fine interface and things do just work. It's okay to want to buy a Mac and you don't have to blame Gnome or OpenSuse. Besides, as you state, you've already shelled out the money, so you might as well enjoy it.

    120. Re:xp still works by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      While what you say has some truth, the part you leave out is that the attacks against Android were not against the linux kernel used by Android, but the Android specific parts. So, while while your numbers may be accurate as they quote Trendmicro, they misrepresent the reality. Just as a vulnerability in Firefox is not a linux vulnerability, even though Firefox ships with most linux distributions, likewise, a vulnerability found in the Google specific Android pieces does not make it a linux kernel vulnerability. If those pieces were tied directly into the kernel by the kernel developers, that would be different. But just like if I raise my Jeep and it becomes unstable when cornering, that doesn't mean it is a problem with all Jeeps, Google, modifying specific pieces of "linux" does not mean that the vulnerability is a problem with linux.

      You mean like this one?

      While I never said linux was immune from an attack, I'll worry about that when my bank gets online banking to work with linux. But, yeah, I'm sure people all over the world who click on an email attachment can get all sorts of stuff installed on their computer. Of course, the article was a bit thin on how that would actually happen, unless you are running as root. First warning would be that pesky enter root password dialog. But then there are all of those people who send their banking information to the wife of the Nigerian prince to get their share in a lottery winning, so who knows, maybe they would click on such a thing.

      But regardless, while threats may exists, they are far fewer on linux and bsd based systems than Windows. Fewer, that is, unless the OS manufacturer has done something to open up vulnerabilities.

    121. Re:xp still works by dbIII · · Score: 1

      XP from SP2 onwards has a licensing restriction which causes it to ignore any address space above 4GB

      Hence my point about it being a spit in the face of the consumer. I still have one old system lurking around the office with a Tyan Tiger board and two sockets that I think has about 6GB running under win2k. WinXP would be a downgrade (and would also break the legacy VB software that the machine is being kept for, due to Microsoft not being good at retaining backward compatibility in their own VB software).

    122. Re:xp still works by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Actually XP always supported PAE

      I've heard a very different story from many different sources but I'm no expert. I'd better look it up if I ever feel like ranting about it again :)

    123. Re:xp still works by hairyfeet · · Score: 0

      Really? Then you better not tells the guys at VLite who have been doing it since Win2K (formerly NLite for NT) or the guys at RT7Lite who have made a tool so simple your grandma can use it. Oh and FYI but you have been able to uninstall IE since XP SP2, its under Windows Components in Add/Remove on XP or Programs and Features on Vista on up.

      So maybe you ought to actually try something before you go spreading FUD since its obvious you probably have touched a Windows machine since WinME considering how badly out of data your supposed info is. Oh and in case you are wondering Yes Virginia you CAN change Windows Shells, there are about a dozen free ones to choose from but I prefer AstonShell for their secure desktop which is light and easy peasy to lock down with GPOs.

      So I'm sorry but the ONLY thing Linux has going for it is "free as in beer" and that is if and ONLY if your time is worthless, otherwise you get the "fun" of breaking updates or the "interesting challenge" of Black Screens Of Death thanks to Linux hanging onto a 40 year old client/server paradigm that hasn't been relevant for the vast majority in over 25 years. I'm sorry but there is no comparison, I can place Windows and OSX in the "Hairyfeet Challenge" and they'll both come out with flying colors, Linux will have at least one if not several drivers crapped on and wasted thanks to updates not caring about drivers. Don't say "If they were only in the kernel" because that is bullshit the kernel drivers are ONLY decent on relatively new and relatively popular devices, the rest are half baked and poorly maintained.

      Now I could set down and show you mathematically why Linus' "Let the kernel devs do it" can never work in a billion years but since you are just gonna call me dirty names anyway why bother? I'm sure any response i get will just be the circular logic Linux fans love which is why I have all Linux articles blocked. isn't it funny how we give the FOSSies their own section yet that isn't good enough, they HAVE to come preach their religion in articles that have nothing to do with them? I think the fact that more people are willing to risk thousands in fines and even jail time to steal the other guy's OS rather than take yours ought to frankly be all that needs to be said, your product simply doesn't measure up, sorry.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    124. Re:xp still works by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      You are still talking about XP, right? You can kind of remove internet explorer, but not all of it, it is still there. But for Win 7 and 8, yes, you can finally remove it because Microsoft removed the part that Windows itself depended on and put that in a separate library.

      I'm not arguing the merits of linux. You are reading that in to the discussion. I am only pointing out that saying linux is vulnerable because Google additions for Android are vulnerable is like saying OS X is vulnerable because Adobe is vulnerable. The two are simply not the same and trying to equate them actually weakens your argument.

      There are trojans out there for linux, but they are few and far between compared with Windows. Android has significantly more, but Windows has the most. And that makes sense given a) the popularity of windows and b) how the system was designed.

      All OSs have there pros and cons. Ultimately they also brings something different to the table (end user). So just chill. Besides, if one is to believe the press, the desktop is dead anyway.

    125. Re:xp still works by Lisias · · Score: 1

      I didn't wanted to waste time migrating Desktop, that's was the problem.

      Your argument is that it was too difficult to switch to a different linux desktop but then you switched to a Mac with OS X?

      Yes. Switching to Mac OS X was almost as difficult as switching to KDE (that I don't like), but less difficult than switching to Gnome 3, this last one I still abhor with all my guts.

      Cinnamon was still too green at that time (and frankly, it's not a 100% replacement), and OpenSUSE took almost 2 years to deliver MATE in a usable and maintainable state, so at that time my only choice to use MATE was switching distros - a pain in the arse, as YAST2 is second to no one.

      So, basically, yes. My argument is that it would be (and, in fact, it was) easier to switch to MacOS than switch to MATE/Any Other Distro or even KDE (that I hate) on the same OpenSUSE. Gnome 3 just isn't an option.

      Mac OS X gives me a User Interface that I think is usable, it's stable and consistent for years and its easily maintainable (as it was my OpenSUSE box with YAST2).

      You are plain wrong. People use computers to solve problems, not to get problems.

      If switching to MacOS X is easier and less painful than switching a Desktop, people will do it.

      In what universe is it easier to switch from Gnome 2 to Mac OS X versus a different linux desktop, say XFCE which was already 90% configured like Gnome 2 out of the box?

      On mine, and that's the only one that matters to me.

      I don't know your I.T. background, but mine is measured by decades. I used GEOS on an Apple II, and MacOS on the first Macs. I missed the Xerox's STAR wagon, however... :-D

      Anyway, I used a lot of U.I. paradigms (damn! I used AmigaOS' WorkBench!!), and it happened that I settled with Gnome 2 on a way it didn't happened for a long time.

      XFCE is good, it reminds me OS/2 Warp, that I enjoyed very much. But it's more a Shell than a Desktop - doesn't have full support from the main development tools I use, neither allows the same level of integration between applications (or if it does, nobody tolds me). Shell for a Shell, I would use WindowMaker instead - I like the OpenSTEP metaphors, it's a shame it didn't became more mainstream (perhaps being this the reason I enjoyed Mac OS? - it's a, now remote, descendent of the NextSTEP that Jobs brought to Apple in the 90's).

      Let me get this straight, other than the desktop interface, all of your applications and data would be the same if you stuck with linux. With a Mac, you had to transfer data and learn new apps. As for the interface, you stated that

      Again, you're wrong! :-)

      Other that the price of the box, I had no (too much big) problems with the switch. Eclipse, OpenOffice, Thunderbird (well, almost - I was getting pretty used to use Evolution), GCC and Chrome works perfectly to me, the same way it worked on Linux. I had to install some Linux utils on my Mac Box, but Mac Ports does a beautiful job here. For general text editing Text Wrangler does a nice job (it's even better than the editor I used on Linux, but still behind Notepad++ on Windows).

      Aquamacs is very nice, by the way. And GIMP works flawlessly.

      One serious drawback is the absolute absence of support to anything that is not sold by Apple. Secondary boot is a nightmare, thanks God for Sun's OpenBOX but for gaming, I had to keep an old AthlonXP desktop here, under my desk. Not a problem, as my favorite games are all from the last decade... =D

      That thing was working fine, working well and I was satisfied. My working-flow just works, and the (very few) quirks on Gnome 2 was already know and workarounded. My Gnome 2 Desktop machine was simply the best user experience I ever had on a professional machine, it suited perfec

      --
      Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
    126. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself you fucking faggot.

    127. Re:xp still works by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      The claim of a million infected devices is also press release bullshit, and also says "The number of distinct Android malware specimens detected will reach one million this year, predicts Trend Micro in its annual security roundup report" so there's no guarantee that any of the supposedly infected devices are still actively running today either.

      Assuming 1 million infected android devices over all time, comparing it to 1 billion activated devices over all time is actually the most reasonable comparison point.

      Neither article makes any claims about how many devices are currently running, both are based on numbers of devices that were (running|infected) at one point.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    128. Re:xp still works by kernelistic · · Score: 1

      Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 3.11, 9x & ME were indeed built on top of DOS, but NT certainly wasn't! DOS on NT actually runs in NTVDM. DPMI (32-bit DOS) is also emulated through thunking to NT APIs.

      For the uninitiated, Dave Cutler joined Microsoft in 1988 as a design lead for NT, long after Windows 1.0 was out. This chap also happens to have been instrumental in the design of VMS at DEC from 1975 to 1988. His Wikipedia bio is quite interesting.

    129. Re:xp still works by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Define "integral part of the OS".

      It doesn't live in the kernel.

      MSHTML.DLL can't easily be swapped out because a lot of other functionality depends on it, but ISTR most Linux desktop environments do something similar (use an HTML rendering engine if they need to put a lot of text on screen), so if you want a modern Linux desktop environment you face the same issue.

      The only real difference is it's relatively easy to swap out all the parts of a Linux OS that might depend on such an engine and still have a functioning OS.

    130. Re:xp still works by deroby · · Score: 1

      Most of what you say is true but
      * servers may be available in vast numbers, they're hardly ever run/maintained by mom I'm betting most MS-servers live a virus-free life too.
      * malware writers are used to writing malware for windows. Why throw away all that knowledge and experience and start over from scratch on another platform ?
      * there IS plenty of malware out there for Andriod... you'll probably prefer to call them trojans and dismiss them as 'not real virusses' because they simply use the user as the attack vector (swipe here for free ponies!) and don't really do that much harm except for stealing user info etc... but hey, let's rather bring up SASSER again, after all it's only 9 years ago windows got hit by that one!

      I somehow don't get why people always need come up with the 'you need to run as administrator on windows' argument. You don't need to, maybe a lot of people do, but you don't need to. Ever since the introduction of the UAC I see little difference between me running Win7 or me running Ubuntu; except that the UAC is quite a bit more user-friendly. In fact, after having to type my password for the umptieth time so I can change an ini file hoping to finally get my display at full resolution (old laptop) I started running Linux in 'administrator' mode.

      Get with the times and stop bashing Windows with old arguments. I don't like Microsoft because of the way they run their business, but that doesn't make (all) their products bad. Let people simply use what they like and quit these 'religious arguments' about what OS is superior. If the OS lets you run all the software you /need/, then what is the problem ? You like Ubuntu & Gimp, fine. She likes OSX & PaintShop, fine. I like Windows and Paint, so leave me alone.

      (And don't come whining about how for every program on Windows there is a viable alternative on Linux. There isn't, and besides, for every program on Linux there is a viable alternative on Windows too and yes, often it's free too... although it might not be 'open', but that's true on Android too and I not heard people asking for the source of Angry Birds yet.)

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    131. Re:xp still works by sjames · · Score: 1

      You don't get to freely choose to post in an OS religion thread and then complain that someone who replies to you is making a religious argument. You signed up for it so to speak.

      Windows certainly has improved since that old XP rust bucket. But it still obfuscates the difference between data and executable to the detriment of security. It still makes it easy to trick it's users into getting a virus through email, and it still makes it just a bit too easy to let something run privileged without thinking about it.

      Some of that is a nasty hangover from yesterday when MS all but trained Windows developers to depend on Administrator rights for everything, but IMHO, MS should be slapping them around a bit now to break them of their nasty habits.

      You're the one who seems to be having a religious issue. I was simply addressing security, the topic at hand. You chose to drag open vs. proprietary into the discussion.

    132. Re:xp still works by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      XP is quite secure

      when the crowd leaves XP for windows 7, W7 becomes the target. And with the momentum that is around, XP gets forgotten as a dust collector system on a dust collector PC.

      So.. who runs their accounting on XP, or sensitive data? After 4 years, of knowing it is going.... bye

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    133. Re:xp still works by deroby · · Score: 1

      Call it pre-emptive discussing, sooner or later it was going to end into the discussion anyway =)

      As for 'making it easy for the user to be tricked': I wonder how hard it would be to convince people to install GreatestScreenSaverEver.rpm given a nice screenshot and some flattering text .. heck simply stating that it comes with a free would probably be sufficient.
      If people just click OK or YES on every request they see then what can the OS do about it ? (assuming the user fully owns & manages the machine. Friend of mine set up his dads pc so he can only use what's there and not install anything new. Refuses to give the admin-account password. If his dad wants something installed, he has to call and ask to install program x. The good thing here is that the machine has been trouble-free ever since. the downside is that it takes some time every once in a while when he needs to log in remotely and scrutinize and install the software.; then again, probably less than when he has to re-image the machine every 6 months).

      I don't want to come of as a windows-worshipper, far from it. But I agree that I like quite a bit of things about the OS and it gets on my nerves that people somehow always need to bash on it because their OS of choice is soooo much better. When asked what's better they then always come with the 'bible-list' of 'virusses, not open, how you'll have blue-screens every hour or so, how you need to reboot after changing tcp-ip settings, how you can only tweak things by changing things in the registry, etc, etc... none of which applies when using the OS with a bit of thought. (IMHO)

      Back in the days I had an Amiga and it was fun to discuss with people who had wintels about the merits of the different systems. Usually the discussion would start with "but it's not compatible (Tm) !!' and end with, "multitasking on 3.11 sucks, wished I had those colors & my GUS sounds much better so if only I could load this driver high than we could try play game X with the mouse too, I hear DOS 6 will come with a better memmaker!'. Over time things changed and I had to agree that Win95 was actually rather nice looking but it took until Win2000 before I made the switch (Commodore was long dead by then). In each case, what I wanted to say was that in order to have a proper discussion with the PC-crowd I had to learn quite a bit of what that system looked like, operated like etc... and had the 'decency' to stay with the times as to not insult those I was talking to claiming they were still on DOS 5.0 with crappy CGA graphics and creative beeping.
      Funnily, 'knowing the enemy' actually landed me a job in a Wintel-centric software company [although I spent the first years there without having a PC at home, 'just' my old trusty Amiga =)].

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    134. Re:xp still works by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Define "integral part of the OS".

      It doesn't live in the kernel.

      Ask Steve Ballmer. That was literally what he said when the anti-trust people told Microsoft that they had to unbundle IE from Windows and put other browsers on an equal footing. He said they couldn't - "Internet Explorer is an integral part of Microsoft Windows".

      I've never dug into the innards of the situation enough to be able to technically affirm this, but I have noted that parts of IE do (or did once) seem to be invoked by Firefox.

      "Windows kernel" is not as cleanly defined as it is in some OS's. Normally. kernel.dll, gdi.dll, and user.dll would not all be "kernel", but Windows isn't likely to do much with only kernel.dll (exe).

    135. Re:xp still works by MoonDJ · · Score: 1

      Vinyl Studio is way easier than Audacity for importing LPs. http://www.alpinesoft.co.uk/

    136. Re:xp still works by cavebison · · Score: 1

      You mean the all so horrible instant search where I can start word and view files by subject in 1\9 of a second without a mouse? You couldn't pay me to go back to XP style start menu! Yuck.

      Never needed it. Things like that are for people who don't know how to file things or download everything into My Documents or the desktop and then think typing into a box is a godsend. Of course, it all depends on whether you remember what to type.

      The first time I ran Win 7, I wanted to do a screen capture. In vain, I typed "grab", "screen", "snap", "capture", "clip", "shot" and instantly remembered why I loved the ability to arrange the contents my Start menu in a way that was logical to ME, the user. Can you remember what the screen capture tool is called in Windows 7 or where to find it in the Start menu?

      Sod having to type everything in. In XP, I have it arranged so all I do is hit THREE keys, sometimes TWO, for everything I want, because my menus are set out like that. Want to run Photoshop? Win+Q+P. Done. "Q" stands for my "Quick Menu", under which is the "Photoshop" shortcut. I'll bet you $100 I can find and run shit at least twice as fast and easily as *anyone* using Windows 7.

    137. Re:xp still works by cavebison · · Score: 1

      I just hit th windows key and type acme sales 2010 and enter to find the documents.

      Well, that just illustrates two major failings:
      1. You don't, or soon won't, remember where you keep your files, and that's nothing to brag about.
      2. In Windows 7 it's harder to set up shortcuts to important folders than it is to search, and that's nothing to brag about.

      I don't need such hand-holding in XP. I know where shit is stored because I *file* things. Search is fine for idiots who save everything to My Documents or the desktop or simply have no friggin idea how computers and folders work. And of course that's as long as you remember what to type in.

      In XP, I have my Start Menu arranged so all I do is hit THREE keys, sometimes TWO, for everything I want, and every folder I need to see. Want to run Photoshop? Win+Q+P. Done. "Q" stands for my "Quick Menu", under which is the "Photoshop" shortcut. I'll bet you $100 I can find and run shit at least twice as fast and easily as anyone using Windows 7.

      OSs are increasingly being designed for stupid people - and that's nothing to brag about.

    138. Re:xp still works by sjames · · Score: 1

      Running something with elevated privileges should be a special procedure, not yet another dialog box to swat out of the way with a click. Windows and it's apps have trained the users that if you just keep clicking OK to the inane dialog boxes ("Are you really extra absitively posolutely sure you meant to say yes?") it will eventually do what you told it, so now they don't even read them,.

      Sure, a Linux user might deliberately install an app that turns out to be malware, but they won't accidentally run 1997TaxReturn.exe because apparently Windows decided that file types and extensions are too hard for Windows users so it better hide them. A good UI will make a strong distinction between running an executable and opening a data file with an executable.

      These are not issues of the past, they're ongoing. of course, in reality, until XP is actually not running in significant numbers, the rest of the world still has to put up with its crap, so it is a current issue. If MS didn't spend so much time and effort locking people in, it would probably have been gone shortly after 7 came out.

    139. Re:xp still works by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Windows 7 does it better as it catagories it and with tab and enter you can switch without the mouse.

      However, Windows 8.1 is now putting that feature back in. Also in Windows 7 it does not block everything out in full screen. So you can be reading a word document while you search for related things in that document etc.

      It was handy when I was in college as I had a half dozen excel and word files for certain inventory management projects where I needed it linked together. I hated Vista with a passion! Still do! But with instant search it made me at least have second thoughts about wiping it for a 7 year old XP OS.

      That was several years ago and it amazes me people are still cling to it like it is the best.

    140. Re:xp still works by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      There is nothing to feel threatened by.

      FYI I was skeptical with Windows 7 as well when I heard about it in the news when it was new too!

      Obviously you are very well used to Windows XP at this point and things do change and that is a fact of life.

      I am about to give a real life sample in a minute ..

      I remember when this feature came out with Vista. Boy, what a POS!! I had Vista on a laptop and I was working and finishing up school and my wife would not let me put Xp back on because the drivers were hard to find and not on the OEM website.

      Low and behold my instructor told me what I could do with Instant search on Vista. In another class I had 6 files for a financial and inventory management project where 4 were excel files and 2 were word and I used Outlook to communicate with others to put the damn presentation together.

      The company had 4 customers with data in 4 seperate files that each student made. So Windows Key + acme+ screws showed the exact excel spreadsheet for screws made. I was the leader who needed the document in word so as I wrote and referenced each point I hit the Windows Key + x to bring out each file. With aero side by side it was a snap to set up.

      I hated change too, but I thought ok now Vista at least does have some highlights. I was like you and was skeptical with Windows 7. After a week the only thing I wondered is why didn't I switch earlier. XP seemed very antiquated.

      For your challenge ...
      I will whip your butt with instant search! You do not even need to type the whole thing. It is previously indexed and I can find all sorts of documents from the last 3 years in a faction of a second. It is not like XPs slow search either. I can find picture files too and not just launch quick and that is how I will win in such a contest.

      When you get Windows 7 at work give this a try with the Windows key? After a week you will see Windows 7 is a decent Windows OS and a much needed upgrade.

      Also it is not for stupid people. Secretaries and accountants and sales folks have tens of thousands of documents! They are the biggest fans as they get unreasonable requests to find something about some guy in a part you ... back in 2011 halloween guy right? ... for a contact. The indexing is really nice.My fiance class was one example where I had a ton of documents too.

    141. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its the kind of change involving having to switch from applications that work reliably to those that crash frequently, and even bring the whole system down that people hate. Of course, if you aren't a power user, you might not experience this as you'll only be using a tiny handful of applications to begin with. Windows 7 was not an improvement, and 8 is even worse.

      Eye candy such as menus is not important to the intelligent user, especially when it gets in the way. If you don't like the interface, it's been possible to run alternate shells in place of the standard interface for a long time. You could develop your own, too, if things really mattered that much to you.

      Similarly, if you need instant search there have been applications that provide it for a long time.

      Newer versions of Windows are not about improving the product, they're about keeping a monopoly.

    142. Re:xp still works by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      The only difference is that unlike the Android usage numbers I can wallpaper this page with currently spreading malware infections and of course there is that rotting elephant in the room where over half are running unsupported versions which are not only vulnerable to that recently reported major security flaw but thanks to the OEMs will NEVER get patched and will most likely be accessing appstore knockoffs run in China which are frankly dodgy to begin with.

      So I'm sorry but Android is a security nightmare. This is the major downside of FOSS, the "free as in freedom" also means "Free to use unsupported versions and Google can't do shit" and Joe Average doesn't there are versions, just as when you ask them what is on their PC all they will ever say is "Windows". Hell just go to Walmart.com and see how many Android 2.x devices are being sold there right now, last time I walked through the local Wally World, just a week ago BTW, there were only TWO 4.x devices and a ton of 2.x and ALL of those are ripe for pwning.

      So I'm sorry but even though I have an Android phone and love it I can see the current system is a major pwning waiting to happen and I'm just waiting for Google to get their own netsky or Code Red, its ripe for a major pwning and personally I'd say with all the 2.x devices a million is probably more conservative than what is reality.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    143. Re:xp still works by steveg · · Score: 1

      That would mean I would have to have a Windows (or Mac) computer handy. It could be done, but is Vinyl Studio enough better to make it worth my while? I don't currently have either around now.

      Automatically removing clicks, hiss and hum would be swell, except that I would never allow any software to do that. The overall sound always seems to suffer, at least in my experience. Hand editing the clicks is a fair amount of work, but the results are better. If I can't fix a problem without damaging anything else, I leave the problem in.

      Other than cleaning up the sound, all the other things it does are pretty easy in Audacity.

      Vinyl Studio looks like it could do a lot of the heavy lifting, and may very well be a nice piece of software, but its most attractive features are the ones I wouldn't use.

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    144. Re: xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what? it's perfectly correct english to "predict" something "will" happen. the future tense isn't exclusively used for events that we know are going to happen. (how would that be possible, anyway?)

      tl;dr quit being a typical slashdot pedant

    145. Re:xp still works by symbolset · · Score: 1

      I guess if all you know is the Windows world this seems drastic. I never did sign up for that. I was a Unix geek originally. Back before there was a Windows I was doing windows and Athena Widgets on SVR-III and never saw the benefit of the whole Windows thing. Yeah, they can make their Office dominate if they make their OS reject every other office software product - but I was never a big generator of form letters anyway, and I was doing WYSIWYG before DOS was a thing. I tried it, but what broke it for me was the driver model where to interact with the sound device even the maker of the sound device couldn't tell you how to interact with their gear on a hardware level: you had to get that from their subcontractor, who was wholly owned by Microsoft and not disposed to tell you how to do that if you weren't running a Microsoft OS. The people who invented the gear were literally contractually obligated to not tell me how it worked.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    146. Re:xp still works by kermidge · · Score: 1

      "I'll worry about that when my bank gets online banking to work with linux"

      Huh? Isn't that done via a browser anyway? My bank works that way and doesn't care what OS I'm using. I'm running Ubuntu and talk with my bank with Firefox.

    147. Re:xp still works by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Re the link you gave, I just read most of it, and initial reaction by this very simple end user is: Wow!

      Thanks very much for the info linked to. If I still had my old Vista and XP installs, I'd be busily about testing this. Hmm, I do have an XP vm... but no current need for using more than 4GB (indeed, I've set the vm to use just 1GB of RAM.)

      Thanks, again; I learned more than I probably needed to, and I like that as well - it's good to stretch.

    148. Re:xp still works by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Agreed, with a few changes in settings for services and a few other tweaks (the learning of which required more reading and learning than I initially appreciated) one had a fast and generally quite stable Vista system. I've watched it recover from things that would have locked up an XP install. The only issues remaining were with some drivers and with the graphics system bottleneck.

      After making the necessary changes, I and those I did the same for started to really like Vista and had no complaints. The one real caveat is that we were all fairly simple end users doing fairly simple things, doing little more strenuous than simple video editing, using some big spreadsheets, and playing some games that made full use of the available resources.

    149. Re:xp still works by MoonDJ · · Score: 1

      Yes, Viinyl Studio is that good, IMO. Of course, if you're opposed to getting a PC and opposed to getting a Mac, then finding purpose-built software is likely to be a challenge.

      And the original complaint, which I think is that Audacity is too much of a pain, really stems from the fact that Audacity is not purpose-built for digitizing LPs.

    150. Re:xp still works by palion · · Score: 1

      That's right, I recall that, too. It was even simple. Can't remember how it was done though.

      --
      Well, well
    151. Re:xp still works by wolja · · Score: 1

      DOS still works too, if you find the right hardware to run it on or use it in a virtual machine. Does that mean we should all be using DOS?

      It would certainly be preferable to running Windoze 8.

      --
      Wolja Future Tombstone: Shit happened then I died
    152. Re:xp still works by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Unix grew up as a reaction against the security in Multics, which was a genuinely secure OS. UNIX has never had good security though year by year it gets better. Windows had a very good capability security model they just didn't use very much because of application compatibility problems.

      The difference is in the applications culture not the origination.

    153. Re:xp still works by Ravaldy · · Score: 1

      MS Dev has changed significantly. IT was different in those years. Even Unix was a different ball game. I tend to prefer MS in work stations and small business servers. I'll be the first one to recommend linux based storage equipment because it's just better and the people developing on the hardware are more knowledgeable on the matter. I think people always take products out of context and don't look at pros/cons. Framework has made deving on MS very simple and I can push applications for the company's needs much quicker which equals less $$ and more productivity. In addition Framework is updated as computer get their Windows updates which keeps the applications (assuming properly developed) safe and optimized for new hardware.

    154. Re:xp still works by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Will you cut the nonsense about "religious argument" whenever the flaws of Windows are pointed out. Sjames made a valid point, that in multiple venues Windows seems more susceptible. That's not religious that's fact. It is religious to fail to evaluate products fairly on their genuine disadvantages.

      Now I happen to think the issue with Windows is cultural not technological. But that being said, Sjames' argument is not religious.

    155. Re:xp still works by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I wonder how hard it would be to convince people to install GreatestScreenSaverEver.rpm given a nice screenshot and some flattering text

      Rather difficult I suspect, since they've been trained to only install software that comes from their distribution. So unless RedHat was tricked they are unlikely to install.

      If people just click OK or YES on every request they see then what can the OS do about it ? (assuming the user fully owns & manages the machine.

      What Apple does, makes doing harmful stuff more difficult than doing easy stuff.

    156. Re:xp still works by jbolden · · Score: 1

      As an aside Microsoft also sells a stripped down Windows called Windows embedded. You do't even need to go to vlite.

    157. Re:xp still works by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The start menu is a directory. Open it and move stuff.

    158. Re:xp still works by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That said lets cut through the bullshit and talk about the REAL reason so many are hanging onto XP for dear life...Windows 8. They claim Win 8 is "easy to use" but that is bullshit [story about dad]

      Did your dad have the right hardware: a touchscreen laptop with an adjustable hinge? If not. Then of course it was hard to use, he was using a Windows 7 laptop to run Windows 8. Run Windows 8 on the right hardware running applications designed for that hardware and it is a very different experience. Microsoft made a huge mistake in not making Windows 8 touchscreen or external tablet mandatory.

      but they added a Goatse by saying "We brought back the start screen!" only to have it...drumroll...take you back to the fucking metro you were trying to get away from!

      I was at WPC where they made the announcement. They did not bring back the start menu. They introduced a new dashboards feature for desktop mode, and included one sample dashboard which uses a button market "start" to launch the Metro launcher. They were giving an example of the power of dashboards. There is no way to get away from Metro, Metro is the new OS, desktop / Win32 is a legacy product.

    159. Re:xp still works by steveg · · Score: 1

      I have PCs. It's less that I'm "opposed" to getting Windows or "opposed" to getting a Mac than it is that I don't see any pressing need to to either. Dedicating one computer to one task seems a bit wasteful to me.

      And I don't really have much in the way of "purpose-built" software, if by that you mean software that really only does one thing.

      I don't find Audacity a pain at all to digitize LPs. It does a great job. If I had something like Vinyl Studio, I would probably use it to hand edit pops and clicks out, one at a time. If it would let me. Is it significantly easier to do this with VS? I get the impression that its strength is in automating such tasks, but I wouldn't let it do that.

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    160. Re:xp still works by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Unix grew up as a reaction against the security in Multics, which was a genuinely secure OS. UNIX has never had good security though year by year it gets better. Windows had a very good capability security model they just didn't use very much because of application compatibility problems.

      The difference is in the applications culture not the origination.

      I'd always heard that Multics was more than could be easily crammed on the (PDP-7), that Unix's authors were supplied with.

    161. Re:xp still works by jbolden · · Score: 1

      UNIX's authors were on the Multics team so they had access to machines in the GE-600 series (far better than a PDP-7). The PDP-7 was a piece of junk in the basement that they were doing a skunkworks project on as a protest against Multics, hence the name play.

    162. Re:xp still works by deroby · · Score: 1

      The 'reason' I 'd call it religious is because people tend to be black&white about it, as in "there can only be one".

      I started out with my Amiga as the first 'real' OS, 'had' to switch to windows; have been dabbling with Linux on and off and only know about Apple indirectly.
      => I actually was anti-MS-DOS/Windows up to Windows 2000, as from there the OS became stable & usable IMHO.

      At the time, my job involved MS products (and it still does) so the choice between Wintel and Apple as alternatives to my Amiga was quite simple. On top of that, Apple is/was way too expensive anyway. Linux was too much niche at the time and slackware looked impressive but couldn't convince me at the time. BeOS seemed fun but I never got around getting one.

      => By now I know Windows 'pretty well', in each case a lot better than Linux. I'm sure I can complain about a lot of things that are 'wrong' in linux that someone with finer understandings about the OS would be able to fix in minutes. Experience shows the opposite is true too.

      in fact, over the years, I've suggested and installed Ubuntu on several machines of friends that only use them for basic web & office stuff. They always start out with wanting Windows because that's what everybody has -- so yes, it probably IS a cultural thing -- then again they always assume Windows is free and 'know a guy'. I've stopped supporting those installations as they're a death-trap because Windows Update refuses to serve them updates and frankly, I can't blame MS. People spend 1000$ on the latest hardware but refuse to shell out a single cent for the OS, sigh. Anyway, when return them their machine with Ubuntu on it they hardly realise they're using something different because in the end it all looks and feels alike. (even with the default settings.. disclaimer, that was before Unity so far everybody seems to be happily churning along with their 'old' versions... it's not only XP that still works).

      Anyway, please don't dismiss me as a Windows-nut, I am not... but I do hate it when people come by and start bashing on Windows because of things that are quite in the past. You don't hear me complaining how Linux has lousy driver support although yes, I've spent plenty a night getting things right only to have the next update mess it up again.

      PS: another reason why I'd risk calling these discussions religious is because people tend to bring in words like 'Evil'. MS isn't evil, it's just a big company that tries to make (more) money. Same goes for Apple & Google & ... well, all of them I guess. And that includes RedHat and Agile and ... it's capitalism at work. It may start out with a couple of guys having a good idea, but it always ends with highly overpaid 'executives' that simply try to squeeze the most out of the client-base.

      All in all, maybe (probably) Windows *IS* more susceptible to viruses than the other OS's. Personally, I think not although it does require some common sense from the user, true. These OS's (and software in general) are way too complex with way too many variables interfering which each other. Maybe we'll get there someday and have some kind of background AI that warns us against potential threats [Clippy: it looks like you;re trying to install a screensaver] but I very much doubt I'll live to see it. That said, it obviously gets more difficult over time so there IS hope; but as people expect new features with each never new version released there's bound to be some new vulnerability being introduced. I'm pretty sure Pown2Own is only the tip of the iceberg and there are plenty of smart people around that know how to circumvent the safety mechanisms.. In way that's a waste of talent but I guess everyone has bills to pay so who am I to judge.

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    163. Re:xp still works by deroby · · Score: 1

      Well, you try to install XnView on Ubuntu then (or FastStone).
      There are a lot of things available in the package-mgr, but definitely not all of it is.

      And what Apple does is something that gets on peoples nerves too here on /.. Too lazy to look them up, but there have been plenty of stories here about the vetting process being 'far from optimal'.

      I have no first-hand experience with it, but if Apple is able to retract an app because some company issued a complaint against it ["We have copyrighted the yellow circle, please remove all pacman clones" (**)] is reason enough for me to take a detour around their shops.

      (**: yes, it's an exaggerated example but who knows how long it takes for it to become reality... for crying out loud they've (Tm)-ed magenta !?]

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    164. Re:xp still works by jbolden · · Score: 1

      This is a long post. I've been using Linux since 1995, still do and I think it has vastly inferior driver support to Windows. It used to be 2nd best by a mile but Apple has been catching up. There is nothing wrong with giving Microsoft credit for the many billions they've spent supporting the incredible complexity of x86 hardware. Nor is there anything wrong with pointing out the disadvantages of a diverse user base.

    165. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, no, Win95 still ran ontop of DOS as did Win98.

      2k and later XP spawned from the NT line.

    166. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 95 was pre-Me, and it was definately not NT based.

    167. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you try to install XnView on Ubuntu then (or FastStone).

      Actually Xnview is available for Ubuntu now it's called Xnview Multi Platform.

      http://www.xnview.com/en/xnviewmp/#downloads

      Enjoy. :)

    168. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NT "grew out of" VMS in that Microsoft hired engineers who had worked on VMS at DEC.
      VMS did not become Windows 95. You grammar is flawed. Windows 95 was not NT-based. Your facts are flawed.

    169. Re:xp still works by Safety+Cap · · Score: 1

      On the other hand SSH can't be compromised,

      Do tell! So some malware/virus couldn't snatch the SSH keys from an infected box and then ssh into another? Or simply ssh into an improperly-secured box (say, with easy-to-guess passwords for easy-to-guess accounts)?

      Please sign me up for your newsletter, The Dunning-Kruger Daily. I hope it has a good crossword puzzle!

      --
      Yeah, right.
    170. Re:xp still works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wait, you're saying that ME is from the same code branch as 3.1 but 95 is NOT?

      it went DOS, Windows, 3.11,95,98,ME,2000 (first to use NT kernel),XP,7,8

  2. That will be a lot of spambots by NixieBunny · · Score: 4, Funny

    Once the patches stop and they all get infected, they'll be so busy sending junk to each other that they won't have time to compute anything.

    --
    The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
    1. Re:That will be a lot of spambots by MurukeshM · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What makes you think that isn't happening already?

    2. Re: That will be a lot of spambots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Someone at the NSA is having an orgasm over this.

    3. Re:That will be a lot of spambots by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      Once the patches stop and they all get infected, they'll be so busy sending junk to each other that they won't have time to compute anything.

      once ... they all get infected?!? Um. Odds are they have been for years.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    4. Re: That will be a lot of spambots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two if you count TOR on Winbugs

    5. Re:That will be a lot of spambots by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Once the patches stop and they all get infected, they'll be so busy sending junk to each other that they won't have time to compute anything.

      So lots of spam will be coming from computers in China?
      That will be a big change. /sarcasm

    6. Re:That will be a lot of spambots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once the patches stop and they all get infected, they'll be so busy sending junk to each other that they won't have time to compute anything.

      once ... they all get infected?!? Um. Odds are they have been for years.

      The US Government has been proudly running XP for years... And they still are... And... well... ;) File that shit under "stupid fucking morons".

    7. Re:That will be a lot of spambots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      99% of their OS "purchases" aren't legal. It's pretty typical in countries where it's expensive to buy hardware/software legitimately when residents make close to nothing. I doubt that they update windows for the sake of avoiding those annoying genuine KB updates.

  3. Interesting by pipatron · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It will be interesting to see how they will handle this. When I visited China, computer security didn't seem to be one of the top priorities among the computer users, so the majority of the population might just not care much about updates. If it starts breaking down completely, and Windows 7 or 8 isn't as easy to pirate, perhaps we'll see a Chinese mass migration to Linux.

    I wonder how difficult it would be for the Chinese government to make their own Windows patches. They could probably perform a MITM on the windows update servers and feed their own patches if a lot of unpatched Windows machines leads to an increased influx of CIA-sponsored viruses to China.

    --
    c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    1. Re:Interesting by armanox · · Score: 4, Funny

      They'll probably just push Red Flag Linux to everyone.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    2. Re:Interesting by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      perhaps we'll see a Chinese mass migration to Linux.

      Don't hold your breath. I went to a Linux User Group meeting in Shanghai a couple years ago, and more than half the people there were expat white guys. Linux has an astoundingly low adoption rate in China. You'd think that people that are at least nominally commies would more open to FOSS.

    3. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same for windows 3.1 and 98

      and NT...

      Pirated/hacked copies and Linux. There will probably be a few community updates. But I don't see this as a huge problem because China isn't a #1 country for hosting and or datacenters. Its mostly going to be peoples PC's and random studio machines running outdated software. That may or may not ever see the internet.

      Low priority and when the time comes, Ubuntu and Debian are there. China has shown its not averse to using *nix.

      This also may be a political ploy more than anything to get Micro$oft to release windows 7-8 cheaply 8$ or less on the Chinese marketplace. Just like they did for XP, and 2000

      I guarantee any Chinese version of NSA quality computers are good to go. It only affects schoolchildren and the working class. Same as here. Here we just are willing to pay more, faster and are less resistant to the forced upgrade cycle.

      *** P.S. Still using 7zip from sourceforge here... runs on everything... from 1999-2005... computer ~4 years old and not upgrading any time soon. U.S. Citizen.

    4. Re:Interesting by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      When I visited China, computer security didn't seem to be one of the top priorities among the computer users, so the majority of the population might just not care much about updates.

      Given all the NSA spying stories in the news recently, I'm sure there is a possibility this will change in the future. Just another example of the cure being worse than the disease, actually. Of all the routes the US could have chosen to follow, becomming facist was the worst it could have chosen.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    5. Re:Interesting by Osgeld · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      its cause it wont do what they want it to without a massive headache, just like anyplace in the whole universe when talking about linux on the desktop

      dorks like it, everyone else doesn't

      surprised?

    6. Re:Interesting by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      Pirated/hacked copies and Linux...

      The ability to hack Linux is by design. Releasing the current version of Windows at a price the market can afford would only benefit Microsoft.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    7. Re:Interesting by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      ...Windows 7 or 8 isn't as easy to pirate...

      *lolz*... ok.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    8. Re:Interesting by interval1066 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Pirated/hacked copies and Linux...

      The ability to hack Linux is by design.

      He/she meant Pirated/hacked copies of WINDOWS AND linux, genius. Learn to 'merican.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    9. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know... It's not an issue governmentally. Desktop wise I'm sure they use their pirated copies with abandon as the govmnt there don't really care that much about that either.

      http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/ubuntu-to-become-the-official-os-of-china

    10. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is Windows 7 less easy to pirate? It's freely available by torrent, along with any number of licensing cracks. Is it just because we don't have 20-odd dozen volume license activation codes floating around?

    11. Re:Interesting by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2

      . When I visited China, computer security didn't seem to be one of the top priorities among the computer users

      Remember that China has it's own state filtering and spyware software they install and run. And woe to you who are not happy to be spied on by the government. Unlike the US, who basically get to talk a lot, the PRC government feels no legal limits to doing whatever it wants to whomever it doesn't like.

      There's no point in trying to have a secure system if the government itself is mandating an insecurity and is primarily the one spying on you, and is free to throw you in jail arbitrarily for complaining about it.

    12. Re:Interesting by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I found the opposite everyone from relatives to babysitters liked using Linux (Debian/Gnome3 or Bodhi or Magia) and asked about me installing it on their computer. So no not just dorks like Linux, the kids with the fancy $600 phones and the grandparents like is. Although my brother-in-law phoned me last week and asked if I could help him install and configure Slackware over the phone I told him no, then told him to try Mint.

    13. Re:Interesting by tnk1 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I prefer Black Flag Linux. It only costs 35 dollars and a six pack to license.

    14. Re:Interesting by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      And here I thought the disagreement was whether he/she profited today or his/hers progeny benifeted tomorrow. Linux was designed from the getgo to be hacked. Window's, not so much.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    15. Re:Interesting by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Have you actually tried to pirate it?

      All say time stops at june 2011 dont run any update after this date!! I had one copy sort of run with a rootkit. If it hibernates it freezes up as the anti circimvention drm panics. It cant boot into safe mode either.

      I have not seen a single version of Windows 7 that works with updates turned on without side issues like not booting without a fixmbr if the battery goes dead etc

      XP simple

    16. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So all a average use need to run Linux is a dedicated personal support person? I still don't see Linux taking off on the desktop, my granny installed her XP herself and don't need support to install a printer or a scanner (or to get connected to the Internet). I just don't see her doing that in Linux.

    17. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 7-8 is the same way people who programmed in cobol and did engineering ask for help with making new folders today. The UI is pretty garbled and inconsistent. Especially over releases. Older folks just don't adapt as well.

    18. Re: Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol fucking dumbass. two clicks and you'll never know it wasn't genuine. nice try at fud tho.

    19. Re:Interesting by sdnoob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It will be interesting to see how they will handle this.

      windows 7 is nearly as easy to pirate as windows xp was.... so it's pretty obvious what chinese users will do when the time comes.

    20. Re:Interesting by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Commies in China? As you know, all people care here in Shanghai is the bottom line, not even central party politics. So this whole XP China issue is a non-issue really. Chinese could not care less and most places I have been have these slow as molasses computers without even pirated antivirus as I have seen in other developing countries.

    21. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like this. When someone in the US (or "most" western countries) installs a firewall or does some network security thing it's to keep the "others" out. When the same thing is done in China it's to keep their people in and the "others' stuff" out.

    22. Re:Interesting by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I'd assume that wipe and reinstall doesn't hurt so much if everything is cracked so a malware is not as big a deal to the warez kids as it is to the poor sods like me that have to pay for this heap of shit.

    23. Re:Interesting by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      You'd think that people that are at least nominally commies would more open to FOSS.

      I think that's the magic word. For another example of "nominally", I think Vietnam could power the entire country by hooking up a generator, given how fast he must be spinning.

    24. Re:Interesting by crutchy · · Score: 0

      dorks like [linux], everyone else doesn't

      dorks have always made the world go around while the "trendy" welfare bums slow it down... what's new?

    25. Re:Interesting by crutchy · · Score: 1

      my granny installed her XP herself and don't need support to install a printer or a scanner

      your granny must be awesome then... even bill gates isn't immune to the BSOD while installing a scanner... your granny must have some kind of aura that makes all the problems that plague the rest of the world's windows boxes just disappear

    26. Re:Interesting by crutchy · · Score: 1

      Why write a virus for 5% of the population who could decompile the virus and find the CnC?

      you mean the people that use modem routers, set top boxes, televisions, google services, stock markets, amazon, tivo, android smartphones, etc

      yeah you're right... why the hell would anyone bother to try infect those?

    27. Re:Interesting by crutchy · · Score: 0

      Have you actually tried to pirate it?

      have you actually been to china?

    28. Re:Interesting by LQ · · Score: 1

      Did Red Flag Linux never catch on? I wonder if Ubuntu Kylin will? http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/03/ubuntu-china/

    29. Re:Interesting by newnerdyuser · · Score: 1

      I get so tired of this close minded reasoning. If Windows was not installed by the OEM's and if all computers were sold without an OS you can say the exact same thing for all Windows flavours.

      My personal experience is, that I found Linux very easy to install and had no problems with driver issues. After supplying a password it was connected to the net via my pocket wifi. I am not some whizz-bang nerd kid, I'm an old grandfather.

      I found connecting XP laptop to the wifi a real problem, I gave up.

    30. Re:Interesting by readingaccount · · Score: 1

      Windows 7/8 isn't hard to pirate. Sure, it doesn't have an activation-free version like Windows XP Professional did, but with the right program it's a one-click activation process. Pretty painless.

      As for Linux? Hah! People will just use custom pre-activated versions of Windows 7 distributed by fellow users if necessary. There is close to zero knowledge of Linux in mainstream Western society - what makes you think China's going to be any different? Fuck people are still naive to believe it has a chance on the desktop.

    31. Re:Interesting by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      It will be interesting to see how they will handle this. When I visited China, computer security didn't seem to be one of the top priorities among the computer users, so the majority of the population might just not care much about updates. If it starts breaking down completely, and Windows 7 or 8 isn't as easy to pirate, perhaps we'll see a Chinese mass migration to Linux.

      I wonder how difficult it would be for the Chinese government to make their own Windows patches. They could probably perform a MITM on the windows update servers and feed their own patches if a lot of unpatched Windows machines leads to an increased influx of CIA-sponsored viruses to China.

      The Chinese had their own version of Windows 98 :
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/07/19/china_to_build_own_version/

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    32. Re:Interesting by nhat11 · · Score: 1

      @crutchy I think most spam bots wants to target the highest population, not servers, etc. Also linux is fragmented.

    33. Re:Interesting by fredrated · · Score: 1

      They ought to just buy the XP division of Microsoft.

    34. Re:Interesting by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      I have not seen a single version of Windows 7 that works with updates turned on without side issues like not booting without a fixmbr...

      Ok guy, whatever you say. Oh, my windows 7 license just expired! damn...

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    35. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course a lot of newbs like Linux at first. It's fast, typically much more visually attractive, and it seems like less hassle than dealing with Uber Evil MS. (And don't mistake that for sarcasm; I've been dealing with MS since their very earliest days, and they truly are big-E Evil. I would love nothing more in the computer world than to see Linux crush them on the desktop.)

      The problem with Linux no the desktop starts on Day Two, as in when you want to use some cool piece of FOSS your brother in law told you about, but it's only available for Windows. Or you want to buy some device at Staples/Best Buy/Office Max and you find out -- surprise! -- there's no driver and the only help you can get is from arrogant gits online who tell you to compile source or, just as bad, give you completely incomprehensible "instructions". Or perhaps you try to get some real work done with a file manager, and you find out that the ones available on Linux are so soul-crushingly bad they make File Explorer look good by comparison.

      And did I mention the utter joy of Office document exchange?

      I've been using Linux intermittently since the early, bad old days, when installing it was a major challenge. And the major hurdles to widespread mainstream adoption really haven't changed much in all that time. Yes, installing it on most hardware is just about idiot proof, and all the people who worked very hard to make that happen deserve our thanks and support. But in terms of it being a desktop OS that middle-of-the-road users (not geeks, not your grandparents) can use without hitting one brick wall after another, it's not even close, and I see no evidence that anyone in the mythical "Linux Community" cares enough to do the unpleasant, hard work to fix that mess.

    36. Re:Interesting by Lord+Crc · · Score: 1

      My personal experience is, that I found Linux very easy to install and had no problems with driver issues.

      While Linux has been easy to install (as in get up and running) for quite some time now, I've yet to install it without having to mess around with xorg.conf or install alternate drivers/software to get my hardware to work.

      Main culprits have been wifi, gfx drivers (backlight support, hw video acceleration) and bluetooth.

      I suppose it might be a bit more smooth on a desktop pc, but few people buy those these days.

    37. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'll probably just push Led Frag Rinux to everyone.

      ftfy

    38. Re:Interesting by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

      It will be interesting to see how they will handle this. When I visited China, computer security didn't seem to be one of the top priorities among the computer users, so the majority of the population might just not care much about updates.

      I can confirm this. My previous job was doing customer support on an email product my company sold (had anti-spam and various other features). We used to host customer mail domains on our servers, so all mail involving our email customers went through us, both from them and to them. We were always getting servers on blacklists because some stupid customer in China had a compromised PC that was sending spam through us. We'd have to contact the customer with some kind of nasty warning email that they if they didn't clean up their servers that we'd have to shut down their access. The impression I got was that nobody in China cared anything about patching their PCs or security in any manner.

      One of the reasons that XP might still be widely in use was that it was the last version of Windows that could easily be cracked and distributed and made to look legit to Microsoft's validation servers. Microsoft has backed down from every previous deadline on stopping support of XP so while I do understand why it would be in their best interests to stick to the deadline this time, their reluctance to do so previously makes me think that they'll likely push this one off by yet another year or two as it gets closer to the deadline.

    39. Re:Interesting by Clsid · · Score: 1

      The problem is that paying for software is so much a foreign concept that for a country this size, Microsoft only managed to sell like a thousand legit copies of Vista. So if you are facing a choice of getting Windows for free with MS Office preinstalled, and all the major apps, why would you bother with Linux.

      I got a gaming rig from a technology mall in Xujiahui and when I asked for an original copy of Windows, the vendor apologized since he didn't even know where to find it. This is after he found power surge protection from another store, a Geforce from yet another vendor and even an extra long phillips screwdriver. Then they proceeded to run Norton Ghost from a pen drive and installed Windows 7 with Office, QQ among others.

    40. Re:Interesting by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

      Actually I would think the Chinese government would JUMP at the chance to take over the updating of Chinese XP computers - they could fix patches, remove the CIA malware as you suggested and and insert extra monitoring / censorship software very conveniently then.

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
    41. Re:Interesting by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      He/she meant Pirated/hacked copies of WINDOWS AND linux, genius. Learn to 'merican.

      No, the parent understood the GP correctly. He just talked about the point that it's Linux which is more often "hacked" (by its hacker nature) than Windows.

    42. Re:Interesting by rvw · · Score: 1

      I got a gaming rig from a technology mall in Xujiahui and when I asked for an original copy of Windows, the vendor apologized since he didn't even know where to find it. This is after he found power surge protection from another store, a Geforce from yet another vendor and even an extra long phillips screwdriver. Then they proceeded to run Norton Ghost from a pen drive and installed Windows 7 with Office, QQ among others.

      In China we use Windows CN (Chuck Norris)

    43. Re:Interesting by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Installed it from original media, or installed using an oem supplied installer?
      The latter is usually much easier, because it is tailored for the specific machine and comes with all drivers etc. And there is no reason you couldn't make hardware-specific linux installers which would set everything up exactly.

      On any remotely modern machine, installing a typical linux distro is actually much easier than installing xp... No need to load drivers from floppy, no need to enter long complex codes, no need to jump through "activation" hoops, no need to install a bunch of third party drivers afterwards (and good luck trying to work out what hardware you have and thus what drivers you need).

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    44. Re:Interesting by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      It's also possible to push your car to the shops, but most people would never do that under normal circumstances.

      On the other hand if your car does break, isn't it preferable that there are other ways to move it? Otherwise there would be defective cars sitting around everywhere...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    45. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or Ubuntu Kylin: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/ubuntu-to-become-the-official-os-of-china

    46. Re:Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bought a Mac last year and made a VM out of my Dell (Win7 Pro 64-bit) to run on VirtualBox when needed. Had to crack activation as it deactivated the first time I booted it. Updates have continued installing just fine for the last 9 months.

      Side note: it's pretty sad when your Windows installation runs 20X faster in a VM than it ever did on real 1-year-old hardware. And that's not even using an SSD...

    47. Re:Interesting by crutchy · · Score: 1

      i agree that linux is a fragmented target, but the purpose of spam bots is to send out massive amounts of email, which has little if anything to do with the user, and servers would be far more ideal for this purpose due to typically higher available bandwidths than home broadband connections.

      viruses and ddos bots are similar in that their aim is generally to infect others and make use of an internet connection... a virus making itself known by a destructive payload or noticeable effect on system performance is not generally the objective (look at the likes of conficker, or even melissa). loud and annoying malware is far more likely to be stopped before spreading too far than a virus that is allowed to operate in the background for longer periods. in this case infection of data centers full of headless blade servers and fibre trunk connections would make a far more lucrative target than millions of mom and pop windows xp machines that often aren't even turned on all the time.

      there is lots of loud and annoying malware out there, but it usually accompanies shareware and isn't designed to spread like a virus.

  4. Wonder what it looks like closer to home... by dyingtolive · · Score: 0

    like the US or the UK, just as a point of comparison.

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    Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
  5. Math much? by ArcherB · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But in China, 72.1% of the country's computers relied on the soon-to-retire operating system last month, or nearly three out of every four systems."

    This is Slashdot. I think we can do the math on that one.

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:Math much? by Lendrick · · Score: 5, Funny
    2. Re:Math much? by dotancohen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But in China, 72.1% of the country's computers relied on the soon-to-retire operating system last month, or nearly three out of every four systems."

      This is Slashdot. I think we can do the math on that one.

      I came for this. I do wonder, though, for how much of the general population does "72.1%" go in one ear and out the other, but "three out of every four" sticks.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    3. Re:Math much? by someone1234 · · Score: 1

      Probably only 4 out of every five users can do that math.

      --
      Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
    4. Re:Math much? by BrianSoCal · · Score: 1

      Naaaa.... it's probably closer to 7 out of every 5 users can do that math..

    5. Re:Math much? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Not accordong to my pentium!

    6. Re:Math much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is exactly 721 out of 1000 systems!

    7. Re:Math much? by findoutmoretoday · · Score: 1

      Being Slashdot we know what a 'computer' is. Calculators don't compute, nor tablets or smartphones, cars .... In this case it's what make 72.12345% tick.

    8. Re:Math much? by sourcerror · · Score: 3

      "There was a 23% drop in temperature." is a worthless comment as well unless you mean it in Kelvin.

    9. Re:Math much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is Slashdot. I wouldn't count on it.

    10. Re:Math much? by evilmidnightbomber77 · · Score: 1

      ... or nearly 721 out of every thousand.

    11. Re:Math much? by dotancohen · · Score: 3, Funny

      ... or nearly 721 out of every thousand.

      721000 ppm?

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    12. Re:Math much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other two would struggle?

    13. Re:Math much? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      But in China, 72.1% of the country's computers relied on the soon-to-retire operating system last month, or nearly three out of every four systems."

      This is Slashdot. I think we can do the math on that one.

      I came for this. I do wonder, though, for how much of the general population does "72.1%" go in one ear and out the other, but "three out of every four" sticks.

      Or the opposite as 72.1% works better for me.

      Left / Right brain relevant?

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    14. Re:Math much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably only 4 out of every five users can do that math.

      Or almost 85%!

    15. Re:Math much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's about 80%

  6. Embedded XP machines by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I own and operate a movie theatre, and my digital projector runs on Windows XP, believe it or not. (The server that talks to it runs on Linux.)

    In my case, this setup is not on the Internet; all of the gadgets in my projection room talk only between themselves, so there is no particular security concern in that regard. But I wonder how many other folks have very expensive hardware like this that will probably never be upgraded to run on anything other than XP.

    --
    If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    1. Re:Embedded XP machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a similar situation in medical and dental offices. The equipment is able to upgrade the OS, but the Windows 7 licenses for their specialty software are exorbitant.

    2. Re:Embedded XP machines by pipatron · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a great target for an epic rick-roll trojan.. say.. where is this movie theatre located? ;)

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    3. Re:Embedded XP machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plenty of places do, but there's always a workaround. For instance, the newspaper I used to work at had a bunch of machines running XP in their office - because most of their hardware (cameras, scanners, etc) ran on drivers that didn't work properly on Windows 7. Their workaround was to have a secured company intranet with access out only through a proxy server, which they'd put into place when the XP licenses were purchased.

      Generally, I don't think there are too many non-upgradeable pieces of hardware that are hooked up directly to the Internet.

    4. Re:Embedded XP machines by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      So do a lot of oscilloscopes and logic analyzers.

    5. Re:Embedded XP machines by c0lo · · Score: 1

      But I wonder how many other folks have very expensive hardware like this that will probably never be upgraded to run on anything other than XP.

      Expensive like ... what?!? Are you kidding?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    6. Re:Embedded XP machines by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Three weeks of downtime in even a single unit of a power plant sounds incredibly expensive to me.

    7. Re:Embedded XP machines by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Three weeks of downtime in even a single unit of a power plant sounds incredibly expensive to me.

      Yeap. Put that in the context of the GPP whining about "my expensive movie theatre projector" and wondering who's equally unfortunate like him?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    8. Re:Embedded XP machines by yuhong · · Score: 2

      Ah, Embedded Standard 2009 and POSReady 2009 is supported until 2019, and is based on XP. When WEPOS SP2 support ended after plain XP SP2 support, they just put up the plain custom support patches without any checks at all. I wonder what MS will do about it this time.

    9. Re:Embedded XP machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I ran XP SP2 for years without any further security updates. It was even connected to the net without real-time malware protection. Never had a problem. I just had a tight firewall, turned on JS, Flash, Java etc only as needed on trusted sites, checked suspicious attachments before opening, etc.

      But you and I know enough about this technology to practice safe computing. The average user doesn't and needs all the help they can get, and they still manage to get infected by that free shiny weather widget.

    10. Re:Embedded XP machines by mlts · · Score: 1

      There is a lot of stuff running on XP and XPe (XP embedded.) ATMs, touch screens, computer synths, building security, HVAC systems, power monitors, CNC mills, you name it.

      Of course, XPe can be locked down and have all writes to its filesystems redirected to another location (so the ROM can stay read-only, but changes be saved), but this is less of a security tool than a tool to allow a base image to be burned into an ASIC.

      Sometimes security is best with airgaps, and an upgrade constitutes physically replacing a read-only CF or SD card. Of course, this isn't 100% (physical access can be compromised with ease sometimes), but it does cut off the remote attack vector.

    11. Re:Embedded XP machines by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      'Expensive' can be a relative term. I used to know someone who owned a small movie theater, and they often run on a razor-thin margin. The links you provided for comparison discuss organizations where the cost of an upgrade would be a relatively small portion of their budget, even though the absolute cost would be far greater than movie projection equipment. For small businesses, a cost of even a few thousand could be significant.

    12. Re:Embedded XP machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're about five years too late on that one, friend.

    13. Re:Embedded XP machines by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I've been noticing Windows stuff at the edge of the screen now and then when I go to the movies. It's really obvious when they have to restart whatever software is running the movie.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    14. Re:Embedded XP machines by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Unless they are older models, in which case you'll find Windows 98 on them.

  7. Of course if you can pay... by ls671 · · Score: 1

    Of course if you are a big corporation and you can pay, Microsoft should still be able to provide you with security updates. At least that's how it was done with windows 2000 if I remember right...

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    1. Re: Of course if you can pay... by Patch86 · · Score: 2

      My company (which is a big UK national) enquired after this sort of arrangement (not for XP, but for another programme going out of support in 2014- an old Microsoft CMS). Basically, they wanted multi-millions for it. Our pockets are deep, but nowhere near deep enough for those shenanigans.

      There won't be many companies who can justify that sort of cost on a long term basis.

    2. Re: Of course if you can pay... by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Well, about the military then?

      For the OSes at least, these updates exist, believe me. I do not know about some old Microsoft CMS although, it depends on the user base I guess...

      Some just do not take shenanigans like forced OS upgrade...

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    3. Re:Of course if you can pay... by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

      Estimating how many of those computers have a valid XP license, China might be a less relevant customer to Microsoft than me and you together...

    4. Re:Of course if you can pay... by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Can you estimate how many Windows XP installs without a valid license are able to use Windows Update? My understanding is that you need a valid license plus activation to use windows update anyway so if my understanding is correct, it is hard to follow your comment logic.

      http://support.microsoft.com/kb/326851

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    5. Re:Of course if you can pay... by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

      Well, I read several reports that China has a very high degree of pirated licenses, I don't remember the sources and the actual data. And we don't know how many of those PCs are keep up to date.

    6. Re:Of course if you can pay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a perfect world, you need a valid license and activation to use Windows XP or whatever vesion. This is true if your are not part of the Gentlemen o' fortune with your eyepatch crossing your face. But you are missing that there is also littles software know as cracks available on the intertubes that make window think he is legit and happily go to windows update to get its daily dose of patches. This is true that from time to time, Redmond get some information about it and release a patch that 'correct' this beaviour. If I remember well, they have only done it with XP SP2. But it was the exception, not the rule.

      I know this because I help a lot of colleague to restore their PC to an useable state, and I frequently need to reinstall windows XP to do so. But, most of the time, they have lost their original disks (Genuinly lost them, or the kid thought it was fun to play with the disks and a screwdriver, or they simply didn't burn the disk has required by the manual that nobody read). Generally the license key on the side of the computer is of no help because linked to a specific version of windows XP for COMPAQ/DELL/ACER/whatever brand and does not work with a retail version of the windows XP installation disk. The only solution: Install window with my install disk, crack it, activate it and then patch it to let them use their computer again.

      Posted anonymously for obvious reasons

    7. Re:Of course if you can pay... by PingSpike · · Score: 1

      With XP I think you need a valid volume license key, which I'm not really sure how hard that is to find. I seem to remember some hubbub about MS blacklisting keys and the regular keys I think they did some kind of checking (since they should only match a single machine by nature). This was back when XP came out though so my memory is hazy. Prior to that any old key could be used and I wouldn't be surprised if half of China had the same 98se install key. Anyway, the Windows Genuine Advantage Activation tool was not part of the original XP release and is separate from all released service packs. You can decline the update. I always do since it provides no end user benefit anyway.

    8. Re: Of course if you can pay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a known fact China purchased exactly one copy of XP. But China didn't pirate anything. When the lights were off it multiplied like bunnies hopping from one PC to the next. When support for XP ends the one copy of Win7 that was purchased will be loaded just before the lights are turned-off.

  8. At long last... by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1

    next year will be the year of the [Red Flag] Linux Desktop. In all seriousness though, updating China has to be eagerly anticipated in Redmond. It might even be in the Chinese government's interests to encourage users to adopt Linux rather than sending all that money to the States.

    1. Re:At long last... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They need Windows to play League of Legends and all the crap in internet cafes.

    2. Re:At long last... by pegacat · · Score: 2

      rather than [sending all that money to Ireland, then Holland, then Ireland, then a Swiss bank account]

      (was: rather than sending all that money to the States)

      There, fixed that for you...!

      --
      Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird.
    3. Re:At long last... by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Not going to happen. People couldn't care less about Linux here. I have seen way more interest in stuff like that in Europe and alaton America though.

    4. Re:At long last... by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1

      People may not, but the government cares enough to support Red Flag. And may have happened once, if briefly, if only in a few government ministries . Still, I'd be pessimistic about the prospects too. For one thing, its harder to hide a backdoor in open source software.

  9. Ummm... RTFS by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    "In the U.S., 16.4% of all personal computers ran Windows XP in July."

    I mean seriously, it isn't like you even had to click on the article.

    1. Re:Ummm... RTFS by BancBoy · · Score: 1

      over a quarter of the world's smartphones run an unsupported and compromised version of Android but that hasn't yielded a huge problem

      Says the AC that just had his phone pwned by a compromised Bluetooth Toilet!

      --
      [UID-HeinzIntel]
    2. Re:Ummm... RTFS by dyingtolive · · Score: 1

      Hey, I made it through the title of the summary and the last sentence! I thought that was considered overachieving for Slashdot. :-)

      --
      Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
  10. Most useless comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "72.1% ... nearly three out of every four systems"
    I refer you to http://bash.org/?2999

    1. Re:Most useless comment by dotancohen · · Score: 0

      "72.1% ... nearly three out of every four systems"
      I refer you to http://bash.org/?2999

      <kyourek> There was a 23% drop in temperature.

      <nappyjallapy> That's almost 25%!

      <kyourek> ... That was one of the most worthless comments I've ever heard.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  11. Time to invest in popcorn by lennier1 · · Score: 1

    A shitload of people is probably hoarding exploits to use when MS stops patching the product. Once that happens,it's gonna be fun to watch.

    1. Re:Time to invest in popcorn by sc0rpi0n · · Score: 1

      A shitload of people is probably hoarding exploits to use when MS stops patching the product. Once that happens,it's gonna be fun to watch.

      What makes you think that these users are updating their systems right now? Most installations in China are pirated and have updates disabled to prevent them from being disabled after an update.

      According to http://www.ie6countdown.com/ 24% of users in China use IE6. Microsoft has issued an update that forces an upgrade to IE8, which means that these users either have updates disabled or explicitly opted out of upgrading the browser through a special process; most likely the first.

      Having no new patches won't change anything.

    2. Re:Time to invest in popcorn by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

      The problem is, this will hurt the good people too, and while we're munching popcorn, our mailbox will fill up with spam, and the sites we like will fill up with malicious scripts.

  12. Keeping XP For Legacy Games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Anyone keeping XP around for legacy games? Also, games that came out for Windows 98, but can run in XP, but not anything newer? I also have a few that only work with specific graphics cards, for 98, and won't work properly even in XP. Has something to do with game being programed to the card clock/timing... Found an in depth article on this game a while back, and the 'fix' was to either de-prioritize the process to slow it down when using 'other' hardware (cpu/gpu), or rewrite the game.

    Now I realize the 'security' problem with doing this, especially with keeping them Internet connected, but the assumption that apps and software of the past are cleanly carried forward is an absolute joke today. Is WINE really the only recourse for this particular problem? I'd prefer it not be, but that's what it presently looks like from where I'm sitting.

    1. Re:Keeping XP For Legacy Games? by Osgeld · · Score: 2

      nope

      if it was made for XP it runs in 7

      if it was made before XP get virtualbox, not like its going to consume that much power in a VM

    2. Re:Keeping XP For Legacy Games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rather than trying to hack an obsolete OS, you might as well just obtain an old PC and keep it around for dedicated Windows 98 gaming. (Some games only ran on genuine 3DFX hardware for example.) Wine probably will not help you much if at all.

    3. Re:Keeping XP For Legacy Games? by StarWreck · · Score: 1

      I used to spend a LOT of time tweaking settings in Win 98 to get ancient DOS games working right, getting the sound working, getting strange types of DOS era "virtual memory" setup. Even for a lot of Win 95 era games, you'd have to change your Win 98 colors back down to 256 or things like animations wouldn't work. DOSbox has made things so much easier.

      --
      ... and in the DRM, bind them.
    4. Re:Keeping XP For Legacy Games? by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      if it was made for XP it runs in 7

      Not quite true. I have XP era apps that don't work 100% in Windows 7. I can work around most of the problems by setting the compatibility modes to disable DWM/Aero, but the app still doesn't work 100%. The program doesn't work at all in Windows 8 since you can't turn DWM off!

  13. What's the problem? by betterprimate · · Score: 1

    These are old machines that aren't capable of upgrading to a more recent version of Windows. The hardware requirements from XP to Vista were to great that no one bothered. XP will still be used well past its expiration point and many will be using linux after.

    Further, what percentage of these machines are running pirated copies of WinXP? I know in Latin and South America, they're almost all pirated. How is it in China?

    And whats up with referencing Net Applications? I haven't stumbled upon a site using their analytics since the 1990s.

    Sources for TFA are elusive at best.

    1. Re:What's the problem? by pipatron · · Score: 1

      Further, what percentage of these machines are running pirated copies of WinXP? I know in Latin and South America, they're almost all pirated. How is it in China?

      Well.. I don't think you need to be a rocket surgeon to guess that number correctly. :P

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    2. Re:What's the problem? by Delarth799 · · Score: 1

      Well China is known as the land of copycat it seems and I would wager a good 75% or more of those machines are running pirated copies.

    3. Re:What's the problem? by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      Further, what percentage of these machines are running pirated copies of WinXP?

      Why should how WinXP was acquired matter in the least? Microsoft, by hook or by crook, wanted a monopoly and they got it. It is their responsibility to maintain it.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    4. Re: What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wow! That's like 3 out of 4 computers!

  14. No worse than right now. by khasim · · Score: 2

    If they are not already running a firewall then they're probably already infected.

    If they are running a firewall then they might be infected through a 3rd party app (I'm looking at you, Java). Or maybe not infected at all (that is possible).

    Which will be the exact same situation when XP support expires.

    1. Re:No worse than right now. by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      IE 6 also is one the most popular browsers. Infact until this time last year it was the most popular browser as Chinese websites are still made to only work with IE 6.

    2. Re:No worse than right now. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember that China has a Great firewall.

    3. Re:No worse than right now. by Cid+Highwind · · Score: 1

      If they think running a firewall is going to help in the slightest with malware, they're probably already infected.

      --
      0 1 - just my two bits
    4. Re:No worse than right now. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know a few small businesses that will upgrade their win xp based point of sale systems when you can pry the funds from their cold dead hands. Of course they work and have never been connected to the internet so infections are not a problem even after support expires.

    5. Re:No worse than right now. by mlts · · Score: 1

      Firewall, no, but something that scans URLs and drops ads, definitely, because one large source of malware seems to be ad servers.

      China definitely has a content filter. Supposedly, it has the ability to change content in flight. If they used that to defang malware using blacklists and heuristics, it might actually be one of the best security measures a nation can take.

  15. I don't see a problem. They probably pirated most by SensitiveMale · · Score: 1

    of those copies of XP and they'll do the same for 7 or 8.

  16. The beginning of dystopia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I predict riots, and everything every dystopian sci-fi book and movie has predicted.

  17. Re:At long last...Snowdwn action? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps some Snowden type in Redmond will post up the source code.
    (or take it to China and auction it off)

  18. XP Forever. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's terrible. Buggy. Insecure. Clown-shoes funny looking. But it's still the best Windows ever. I'm sure some company will swoop in to fill all of it's cracks with some kind of quick-drying cement, and keep the old boat floating, as it were. XP Forever.

    1. Re:XP Forever. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2000 pro was the best windows ever, but you morons in the home consumer world bought into the windows 2000 fisher price edition cause you were too fucking stupid to burn your blank CD without a pop up telling you to

  19. FIRST@ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stay frosty out there, fokls.

  20. What's the legit percentage? by wallsg · · Score: 1

    Probably something like 7.21% of the PCs would pass the Windows Genuine Advantage check...

    1. Re:What's the legit percentage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Probably something like 7.21% of the PCs would pass the Windows Genuine Advantage check...

      This. As someone living in China, I can tell you that almost all versions of Windows are pirated ($3 for a nice version of XP). The Chinese use a program called 360 that combines software patching and malware scanning, to deliver updates that normally cannot be delivered by Microsoft due to WGA issues. The reason they have not moved to Windows 7 and Windows 8 is because they have better copy protection in the newer versions. Only computer science students use Linux here, and basically it's otherwise unheard of, because everyone just uses cracked versions of crusty old XP. I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show in a few months when (hopefully) everyone's computer goes down the shitter and they finally need to find some alternative.

      Interestingly, the Chinese computer science students that I talked to who used Linux all knew C and used vanilla C for their classes, but had never even heard of languages like Perl, Python, or Ruby. They only knew about the names C++ and Java, but didn't know at all about object-oriented programming (not sure if that's a good or bad thing). China certainly is a different animal...

  21. How is this a problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bet at least 3/4 of those xp machines in china are running illegal/bootleg copies anyway.

    1. Re:How is this a problem? by EzInKy · · Score: 1


      I bet at least 3/4 of those xp machines in china are running illegal/bootleg copies anyway.

      What does it matter if the copies are bootleg are legit? The software is Microsoft's and Microsoft's credibility is on the line here.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  22. Microsoft will extend the deadline by tuppe666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft simply has no choice especially if it wants to protect its compatibility insurance with Windows Office. In reality its monopoly in Desktop Applications...Relies on on it being a Monopoly, and it has real competition. I have bought tablets, smartphones, rasberry pi, an Ouya replicating everything I do on a PC. At a fraction of the cost of a less desirable bottom end PC. Intel and Microsoft have been overcharging its hostages on massive gross profits of 70%(Its not working for Apple Macs either), and are finding it very difficult to adjust when its competitors with can produce devices like a Chromebook for $200 a Tablet for $100 a Smartphone for $100 a chromecast for $35. buying an *unpgrade* to the crippled version of Windows 8 at £99($150) is stupid.

    The bottom line is any money they earn from cutting off their hostages from essential packages is a potential export to another platform.

    1. Re:Microsoft will extend the deadline by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Eventually these machines will have drive, powersupply or cpu fan failures and they'll be forced to upgrade...probably to an android tablet for about half the price of a new PC (or less). I don't think providing extended-extended support for a customer base who is migrating away from microsoft products is going to make microsoft very much money in the long term.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    2. Re:Microsoft will extend the deadline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eventually these machines will have drive, powersupply or cpu fan failures and they'll be forced to upgrade...probably to an android tablet for about half the price of a new PC (or less).

      Trading one nightmare for another, about a 1/4 of the Android devices in use are on 2.3 which has long been unsupported, many others are on unsupported and abandoned versions too. Pretending that going to Android and locking yourself into Google's ecosystem rather than Microsoft's is a step in the right direction is delusional. In fact Google are doing the same sort of bait-and-switch that Microsoft have done in the past, this removal of Activesync on Gmail unless you pay for it.

      Nobody wants to stick with Microsoft but as they fade into obsolescence they are replaced by Google, which is just as bad. Hopefully people are smart enough to avoid that trap and move to truly open alternatives.

    3. Re:Microsoft will extend the deadline by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Switching from a $450 device that's anchored to your desk to a $70 tablet sure makes the transition a whole lot easier though.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    4. Re:Microsoft will extend the deadline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Switching from a $450 device that's anchored to your desk

      there was an invention many years ago called a laptop, you may have heard of them, most of them even run linux, you can get them dirt cheap these days too if that's your concern.

      to a $70 tablet sure makes the transition a whole lot easier though.

      wow winning you over is as easy as offering you a cheap and nasty POS running Android that will never be updated.

    5. Re:Microsoft will extend the deadline by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Switching from a $450 device that's anchored to your desk to a $70 tablet sure makes the transition a whole lot easier though.

      Why switch from a mid range PC to a bottom of the barrel tablet?

      Surely it would make much more sense to compare switching from a bottom of the barrel PC to a bottom of the barrel tablet.

      Last time I built a PC, I managed to get a bunch of Phenom II x6 1100Ts (top of the line AMD at the time) powered diskless machines for about £240 a pop. They are really pretty decently fast.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  23. Let us think a little by tuppe666 · · Score: 2

    I don't see a problem. They probably pirated most of those copies of XP and they'll do the same for 7 or 8.

    If all copies of Windows are the same price you have to expect they have *chosen* windows xp over Windows 7 for a reason.

    Its not difficult to imagine that many of these machines simply will not work with anything other an XP.

    1. Re:Let us think a little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 7 is far more complicated to pirate "properly".

      With XP there are numerous multiple-activation keys in the wild. Put in key, no problem.

  24. To eat or to upgrade? by betterprimate · · Score: 1

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought people were starving in China and a very few (1%) can actually afford an iPhone or a new computer.

    There's a joke in their somewhere if you're brazen enough to make it.

    1. Re:To eat or to upgrade? by shadowofwind · · Score: 3, Informative

      Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought people were starving in China and a very few (1%) can actually afford an iPhone or a new computer.

      You're wrong.

      http://www.zdnet.com/chinas-internet-population-surges-to-564-million-75-percent-on-mobile-7000009813/
      http://www.minyanville.com/sectors/global-markets/articles/Apple-Inc-Doubles-iPhone-4-Sales/6/21/2013/id/50472
      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-26/apple-iphone-share-shrinks-as-china-s-huawei-to-zte-lure-users.html

      The market is huge, closer to 50% than 1%, and Apple's sales, while growing rapidly, aren't as large as Samsung's or growing as fast as those of Huawei or ZTE.

      It should be obvious that there are a lot of reasons besides poverty to prefer other smart phones over Apple phones.

    2. Re:To eat or to upgrade? by ruir · · Score: 2

      There is no joke. Different mentalities and priorities, and not only exclusive to china. If it aint broke, don't fix it. Heck, when I went to do my final project in the uk, there were still people using 8-bit machines. As long as it works and does what they want, they use it.

    3. Re:To eat or to upgrade? by betterprimate · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the info.

      It should be obvious that there are a lot of reasons besides poverty to prefer other smart phones over Apple phones.

      I wasn't suggesting as such. Only whether the majority could *afford* an iPhone. I saw documentaries and reports showing Chinese factory workers who had never even seen their end product nor could they ever dream of owning one.

      Do you know what are the price points for smart phones in China?

    4. Re:To eat or to upgrade? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a joke in their somewhere if you're brazen enough to make it.

      The joke is that you believed the line and ate your lima beans.

  25. Linux by faldore · · Score: 1

    Time to install Linux.

  26. Asianux? Red Flag Linux? by ikhider · · Score: 1

    I thought the Chinese embraced the penguin! What about Asianux and Red Flag Linux?!? I thought the Chinese took a stand and made GNU/Linux their national distro. Come on China, harness that considerable population power to boost the kernel! Download http://www.asianux.com/ pour a cup of ginseng tea and install. I can't believe the Chinese are still stuck on Windows.

    --
    "SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
  27. Not my problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is what you get for using Windows, XP or otherwise, pirated or otherwise. Pretty sure all those old machines can run Linux.

  28. The world has a Massive Windows problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    But Ballmer, dog bless him, is slowly but surely solving it for us all!

  29. EOL a product to force new sales? by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Does MS not realize how vividly anti-consumer this is? Even to non-tech types?

    What if your auto dealership end-of-life'd your Honda Civic? And thereafter refused to service the vehicle? Would you buy another Honda, or start looking elsewhere for your next car?

    And to keep our analogies clear, let's consider that an XP patch (of a security hole) is equivalent to a recall for a manufacturing defect that is fixed for free.

    /no hate on Honda; just an example.

    1. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      That might be an apt metaphor if Honda was a criminal organization, operating an illegal monopoly of cars that were notorious for exploding or simply falling apart for no reason.

    2. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When XP's EOL comes, Microsoft will have supported it for nearly 13 years. How long do you want them to support it for? Should they still be supporting Windows 3.1 and DOS 6.22?

      In the tech world, 13 years is an epic amount of time. Microsoft is not EOLing XP to force people to buy a new version of Windows. It's time to put XP to rest. It had an amazing run, but no one can expect any OS to be supported forever.

    3. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you even old enough to own a car? The first Civics came out in 1973 and no dealership is going to service one of those beyond basic maintenance simply because OEM parts are no longer available.

    4. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Pinhedd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's a horrible example. Car manufacturers do stop making parts for old vehicles after a while. Fixing up old junkers can be expensive because the parts can be quite rare. Owners certainly have the option of buying aftermarket parts just as PC users have the option of third party software.

      Whenever emissions or road standards change the car manufacturers don't retroactively update every previous production model to meet them. The owners either pay for a custom fix up, are SOL, or get grandfathered in.

    5. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Does MS not realize how vividly anti-consumer this is? Even to non-tech types? What if your auto dealership end-of-life'd your Honda Civic? And thereafter refused to service the vehicle? Would you buy another Honda, or start looking elsewhere for your next car? And to keep our analogies clear, let's consider that an XP patch (of a security hole) is equivalent to a recall for a manufacturing defect that is fixed for free. /no hate on Honda; just an example.

      According to the NHTSA and the SaferCar.gov (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/recallprocess.cfm), there is a 10-year time limit for free repairs due to recalls. The exact quote:

      In order to be eligible for a free remedy, the vehicle cannot be more than 10 years old on the date the defect or noncompliance is determined. Under the law, the age of the vehicle is calculated from the date of sale to the first purchaser. [...] However, consumers should realize that even though manufacturers are not obligated to remedy safety defects in older cars, a safety problem might still exist. If you receive notification of a defect on a vehicle older than 10 years, take the responsibility to have your car repaired at your own expense – and eliminate unnecessary safety risks.

    6. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by aphelion_rock · · Score: 1

      Do we perhaps have an opening here for Android for PC?

    7. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Selur · · Score: 1

      hmm,... Apple doesn't provide updates for their older OSs. Apples business plan seem to sell machines which are normally only supported for a few OS versions. Apple users don't seem to complain. Not sure if they to not care (may be because they think their OS is secure) or if they 'simply' buy new hardware whenever they can't update to the latest OS (a few might switch to running Linux on their machines, but probably not many). Virus&Trojan developers don't seem to target those machines much (I wonder why, they should be easier targets and their number increases). May be Microsoft plans to adapt to Apples example.

    8. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my vw dealer refuses to work on my 2006. not that it matters, the last
      time i went in they wanted $104.99 to attach the obd-ii computer. but
      at least they forgot to pick me up, and stranded me at work.

    9. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or if it was an organisation that used price fixing to try to get rid of competitors. For the cars, there are always third party organisations that will sell spare parts until it becomes economically unviable to produce them any more. Guess what, its called the free market, suck it up princess

    10. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by ruir · · Score: 1

      For as much as I hate Microsoft, lets be realistic. XP is a product with a 12-year old life; already in time to be retired.

    11. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by ruir · · Score: 1

      Virus&Trojan developers dont target much OSX, because it is a modern unix with proper separations privileges. and they were wise enough to break with the past and use emulator technologies for people to make the bridge. however the myth of not targeting apple because market share is not there is bollocks. OS9 was very defective by design, and had thousand of virus like your average windows, despite having a small market share.

    12. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Gavrielkay · · Score: 1

      They probably wouldn't fix a recall issue for free after 20 years. Probably. They might just because it'd give them some publicity.

    13. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Inaccurate analogy. More of me going into a deAlership with a 12 year old car with 300,000 miles and being all pissed and whine how I got a new transmission free of charge. What do you mean you wont build a new engine for free! Greedy cocksuckers waa waa!

      Good riddence. Windows 7 is only $130. Folks are so afraid of change and the fud of win 7==vista sp 2 created all these XP ludditie afraid of change.

      This is Slashdot where we like technology isn't it? Please tell me I am not alone?

      FYI experts have agreed Windows 7 is the best OS from Redmond putout

    14. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Arker · · Score: 1

      "Owners certainly have the option of buying aftermarket parts just as PC users have the option of third party software."

      And this is part of the problem - MS uses copyright law (in combination with secrecy, where we once were taught you had to choose one or the other) to prevent third parties from offering the support they are withdrawing. So no aftermarket parts.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    15. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by bazorg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Does MS not realize how vividly anti-consumer this is? Even to non-tech types?

      so in your view, MS (and everyone else in business) should have dedicated resources for maintaining old products in perpetuity, just to ensure that people who ARE NOT BUYING new products can enjoy the old products?

      I think it's your comment (and the 2 Insightful mod points) that is out of touch with reality. With companies requiring to show sales and profit growth in order not to be considered dead by the stock market and therefore by the consumer and by the banks, it is quite amusing to read that the 10+ years support period Microsoft has invested on the XP product is a let down. It would be an interesting exercise to consider the implications of this perpetual support requirement for every other software/hardware and non-IT product you can use.

    16. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Find a new dealer. I get my 2000 and 2001 VWs repaired on the odd occasion that they need it. No problem in getting repairs, or in securing parts to do so.

    17. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when car models "get old", manufacturer's simply quit producing or distributing parts.. it's not at six years or even ten years like microsoft software, but rather maybe twenty.. but it still happens. you then resort to rebuilt parts, junk yards, or third parties to obtain your replacement parts.

      in xp's case.. since it's closed source software, it'd be pretty hard, but not entirely impossible, for a third party to patch holes after EOL by microsoft.

    18. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, if everyone else jumped of a bridge?

      There is a silver lining to the story, when Microsoft discontinues support and upgrades to Windows XP they will no longer be able to keep people from reverse engineer it. (since you are allowed to manufacture spare parts and reverse engineer items that have been abandoned by the manufacturer. This is so they can not keep you from fixing your stuff by refusing to sell you parts)

      You will finally OWN your XP!!!!! This is great news!

    19. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Livius · · Score: 1

      How long do you want them to support it for?

      Until they release a better product.

    20. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      I think Windows 3.1x was on extended support until 2002. Wiki says OEM licensing for embedded applications lasted until 2008. The problem is Windows Vista/7 didn't add any compelling features for people to run out and upgrade. Look what XP replaced, 9x and Me were crashy and unstable messes compared to the NT based XP. The PC market plateaued and upgrade cycles widened in that time period between the release of XP and Vista which didn't help matters either.

    21. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      Guess all those exploding Jeeps that NHTSA bullied Chrysler about aren't getting fixed for free: http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2013/06/jeep_recall_chrysler_avoids_lo.html

    22. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by night_flyer · · Score: 1

      I went into a dealership with my 94 van 3 years ago, and they repaired a recalled item for free, in other words, they fixed something that was their responsibility to fix.

      --


      Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
      Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
    23. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with Windows is that it isn't just an operating system; It's got such a huge monopoly that it is practically infrastructure.

      But infrastructure needs to be stable and Windows has not been.

      I find the constant change and breakage very annoying; It's like if the electricity company stopped supporting the plug sockets in my house every few years and changed the socket layout, the voltage, the cycle frequency etc. arbitrarily.

      Sadly Linux is just as bad; The kernel and base libs have been quite stable but most of the API's are just a mess.

    24. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vista was a POS, so for those that need Windows there has only been a viable upgrade choice for just under 4 years, and I'm sure many chinese can't afford to upgrade that often.

    25. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      I'm currently writing some code to talk to a 20 year old Concurrent Unix machine, so that we can upgrade the operator station. The disks are starting to die on our old SunOS Spark operator stations.

      The interface we have to use is an even older piece of hardware called a DR-11W. My understanding is that PDP-11's used to use it as their printer port back in the '70's. Apparently that's the hardware that was in use when this whole system was first designed. However, this system still serves its purpose, in the process making my company a lot of money.

      So please, tell me again how rediculous it is to expect someone to support software for more than ten whole years. I'm listening. Honest.

    26. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by rikkards · · Score: 1

      Chrysler decided that if Toyota's name can be tarnished with the whole Prius debacle they should do something. What is stupid is that their solution is installing a hitch. Probably could have gotten away with installing a gas tank skid plate which is cheaper than their hitches.

    27. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by sasparillascott · · Score: 2

      They should just offer extended security support for $4.99 per year per machine and watch the profits roll in. Otherwise its just a big opportunity for folks to switch platforms since those old machines will run Linux and Wine but can't run newer versions of Windows because Microsoft changed the device driver architecture - if they hadn't done that they could just tell everyone to upgrade.

    28. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Mr.+McGibby · · Score: 1

      Then release the code so that someone else can do it. Even releasing to another company who would start charging for updates would make more sense than this.

      --
      Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
    29. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      > What if your auto dealership end-of-life'd your Honda Civic? And thereafter refused to service the vehicle? Would you buy another Honda, or start looking elsewhere for your next car?

      Honda charge you for parts and for the mechanic's time to fit those parts (and dealerships tend to be small franchised businesses that make most of their money on servicing). But even they eventually stop ordering OEM parts and it's down to third-party pattern parts manufacturers.

    30. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does MS not realize how vividly anti-consumer this is? Even to non-tech types?

      Google doesnt with Android, Apple doesnt with its eliminating of support for 3.5 year old machines and Ubuntu doesnt support any version more than 5 years. As far as EOLing old versions goes the fact that M$ has kept Windows XP going for well over a decade is pretty remarkable compared to their competitors.

    31. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Pinhedd · · Score: 1

      No they don't. There are plenty of companies, universities and government agencies with access to significant amounts of the Windows source code. Access is of course tightly controlled but it's not as if Microsoft is the only entity out there with the ability to modify Windows, they're simply the only entity out there with the ability to push patches from upstream through Windows Update. Antivirus developers have been playing with core components of Windows for ages and continue to push for Microsoft to relax restrictions including Kernel Patch Protection so that they can modify it to their hearts content.

    32. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by Arker · · Score: 1

      Your first sentence pretends to contradict my point, but virtually the entirety of the rest of your post does nothing but reinforce what I said. A handful of third parties, within restrictions of what is allowed by microsoft, have some partial access to the source code and some narrow and limited abilities to issue patches to it. Which certainly means that third parties in general have neither ability nor legal right to issue patches.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    33. Re: EOL a product to force new sales? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A car is a bad analogy. All cars will reach a point where they are too expensive to service and need to go the junkyard. Maintaining a bad OS from a security perspective is the issue here. There's only so much patching you can do before its a new OS like win7.

    34. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      The manufacturers are required by law to support vehicles they sell for at least 10 years, so a 2006 model should have no problems getting service. And in practice you can usually still get a car serviced by the dealer well after 10 years.

    35. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Why does the fact that your company use old computers make it cost effective for someone to support old computers. It is not your company making money but how much they pay in fees for support contracts that makes them worth supporting.

      IBM / mainframe offers these sorts of long term support arrangement. Microsoft has never claimed to be interested in them.

    36. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      How does this not make sense for Microsoft?

    37. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Apple users don't only not complain they see it as an advantage. They have a fast moving community where Apple announces a technology and it is integrated into the entire ecosystem of applications within a few years.

    38. Re:EOL a product to force new sales? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Microsoft with the exception of Windows embedded has never claimed to be selling infrastructure. People using their products as such were misusing them. There were other vendors and still are who offer OSes that don't shift.

  30. They have bigger concerns than XP by ruir · · Score: 0

    It is very myopic to be using a product from a competing and hostile nation. Industrial and state secrets espionage for dummies. And unlike most nations, they have already their own operating system, their own processors, their own chips, their own boards and capacity to manufacture in large scale. Plus, enough people to create a market to be viable on its own.

    1. Re:They have bigger concerns than XP by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

      So are you suggesting that China make its own OS? If every country in the world made a different OS for fear of control from another nation, the software world would turn into a nightmare. Standardization is good in technology, and has always been pursued (think POSIX, FreeDesktop, etc). And anyway every high-level technological hardware component we use is made by a couple of countries in the world only. A nation can use free software if it wants to be safe against hidden espionage holes.

    2. Re:They have bigger concerns than XP by ruir · · Score: 1

      I didn't suggest they made it from scratch. A few years ago headlines went around about then thinking to mandate reflag linux for all state operations.

    3. Re:They have bigger concerns than XP by ruir · · Score: 1

      redflag ; dictionaries at work here.

    4. Re:They have bigger concerns than XP by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

      Sorry I misunderstood. By the way, I always wondered why many countiries would create a custom linux distribution, and not use for example Debian or Ubuntu and simply provide a default list of installed packages. Is there a strong technical reason apart from political control and censorship?

    5. Re:They have bigger concerns than XP by ruir · · Score: 1

      Customisation out of the box, I guess. As much as I love Debian and use in my servers, it sucks to use flash or customise it by hand to support fully Skype or I guess some more esoteric languages. And then the chinese gov can also add their spyware/control software as a bonus too.

    6. Re:They have bigger concerns than XP by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      is the US considered a hostile nation by China? because we basically let them do whatever the fuck they want to do. Obama, Clinton & Kerry have had a very muddled Chinese foreign policy that's pretty much summed up by the phrase "appeasement". bismarckian idiots.

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    7. Re:They have bigger concerns than XP by ruir · · Score: 1

      They could very well send their industrial secrets by mail to Microsoft and NSA instead of using Windowsit wouldnt make much difference. :)

  31. Re:At long last...Snowdwn action? by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

    "Perhaps some Snowden type in Redmond will post up the source code.
    (or take it to China and auction it off)"

    There will be no auction, they already have the code

  32. So? They'll just pirate a newer version of Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .... like they do everything else.

  33. Time to ditch XP for Linux by jcasey · · Score: 1

    In light of the semi-recent revelations about MS/NSA collusion, I would think it would be an opportune time to mandate a switch to Linux. What money is saved in doing so could go towards funding the development of any other software they might need.

    --
    X
  34. LPT bit banging by tepples · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does that mean we should all be using DOS?

    No, but it means that people with a need for DOS should still be using DOS. In a lot of cases, only DOS supports legacy or hobbyist hardware that bit-bangs the parallel port. Likewise, the AC that you replied to has a need for Windows XP for much the same reason: to use hardware that lacks an NT 6 driver.

    1. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Indeed - I have worked for a while in a airplain maintenance area, where some very specialized hardware only works under DOS or Windows 98. It is too complicated or too expensive to replace that kind of equipment (we are talking about millions here). Of course this stuff is not connected with any kind of network..

    2. Re:LPT bit banging by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      It becomes annoying for us to not have html 5 with smooth graphics on our desktops and have our IPhones give us a smoother and better experience all because people hate change.

      Webmasters are tired of IE 8 which is still the most popular browser in the IE family. This shows me the majority of XP users still have not discovered Firefox yet.
      Most importantly shows they fear change rather than really need it.

      XP users like IE 6 ones negatively effect everyone as they slow progress.

    3. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Webmasters are tired of IE 8 which is still the most popular browser in the IE family. This shows me the majority of XP users still have not discovered Firefox yet.
      Most importantly shows they fear change rather than really need it.

      I'm not an MS fan or apologist, but what a load of crap. Just like XP and DOS, if they don't need another browser why would they need to discover Firefox. And why Firefox above all other non-IE browsers?

      Just because the vast majority of the population doesn't understand the true differences in browsers, and only the technophile 1% actually understand details, doesn't mean that they are afraid of change. Very few users need a specific browser, or browser version, for a specific web app, so almost no one needs IE, or Firefox, or Chrome, or Safari, or Lynx, or or or.

      The two most common reasons that people don't change their OS or browsers (along with many other applications) is because what they are using meets their needs or the cost of upgrading hardware, OS or software (which includes IE versions beyond IE 8 which require Vista, Win 7 or Win 8). They don't know that security isn't as good in one browser version vs. another browser or version, and since they don't think anything bad has or will happen to them they aren't as concerned as those of us who have to fix this crap on a daily basis.

    4. Re:LPT bit banging by foniksonik · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is what VMs were made for.

      Apple managed it, why didn't MS? They should have put a transparent VM into Vista and 7 to run binaries, drivers, etc and called it Windows Classic. They could have had everyone migrated by now and made more money in the process.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    5. Re:LPT bit banging by ai4px · · Score: 4, Funny

      can't... resist..... do we really want hardware that must bit bang ports used to maintain aircraft? Or a person working on airplains who cannot spell airplain?

    6. Re:LPT bit banging by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 1

      I really hope that by saying "people with a need for DOS should still be using DOS" you are referring to FreeDOS, because MS-DOS and all of its main competitors have long been dead... and is there even a single living, supported traditional/proprietary DOS variant other than FreeDOS even available? DOS can still be used in extremely rare special cases, but I'd personally have a hard time recommending *anyone* to use such an obscure, unsupported OS... you're better off just seeing if other options will work these days, and using DOS as a last resort, only when all else fails.

    7. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did. It's called XP Mode

    8. Re: LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they have since vista. called Windows XP Mode

    9. Re:LPT bit banging by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      Long ago (early 1980s) I talked with an IBM mainframe support guy in Portland OR. I don't recall the conversation or how we got there, but he noted that at that time, a majority of IBM mainframes in Portland were still running DOS*, which preceded OS/360 and had been out of maintenance for 10 years by that time. For all those customers, it was in their interest to keep running their existing systems, because they worked and still did the job.

      Of course, back then there was no issue with maintaining security updates. But it's still a valid point of view - if you have a process control system (whether a factory-floor process or an accounting process) that works, does what it is intended to do, why risk the disruption and costs associated with moving to a newer version? Backwards compatibility is a near-impossible goal (among other problems, the new stuff has to replicate all the 'undocumented features' and bugs that the code and the users depend on without knowing it.) Changing software generally will mean changing the business operations to match.

      * DOS (not x86-DOS) was probably DOS/360, introduced in 1964.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    10. Re:LPT bit banging by smillie · · Score: 1

      I've got one program that runs on DOS. It's been running continously since 1995 (24x365). The only crashes are when power goes out and it comes back from those crashes with no corruption and no need for a manual restart. When power comes back it just picks up where it went down. My Linux systems don't have that kind of uptime. If it weren't for hardware becoming hard to get I would keep it on DOS. It's a nice simple OS that does what it's told to do.

      --

      Dyslexics Untie!

    11. Re:LPT bit banging by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      do we really want hardware that must bit bang ports used to maintain aircraft?

      Sure - That hardware is probably a decade or two newer than the aircraft it is being used to maintain anyway.

    12. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't virtualize across different platforms processor types -- you can't virtualize x86 on a Cell (PPC based) processor, for example. The term you're looking for is "emulated" --- and just like all emulators, they've got their quirks and incompatibilities, and often require specific "hacking" for devices.

      Microsoft did have a WinXP virtualized environment for Win 7. Apparently, that's not enough.

    13. Re:LPT bit banging by mlts · · Score: 1

      In a way, this is ironic. Windows 8 and Windows Server 2013 both support Hyper-V with just a package install and reboot (assuming SLAT is present in the CPU and mobo and VM stuff is turned on.)

      Once on, even though it doesn't look like it, everything in Windows is running on top of a L1 hypervisor. Adding another VM to support XP is very easy (takes downloading a package from MS, yanking out the disk image, and firing that up, and XP is ready to go.)

    14. Re:LPT bit banging by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      No, but it means that people with a need for DOS should still be using DOS. In a lot of cases, only DOS supports legacy or hobbyist hardware that bit-bangs the parallel port. Likewise, the AC that you replied to has a need for Windows XP for much the same reason: to use hardware that lacks an NT 6 driver.

      I've bit-banged the parallel port. In Windows XP. I've even had Win32 programs bit-bang the parallel port too. Presumably, one could do it for Windows 7 and 8 as well, though you'd have a hard time finding it because malware authors have basically caused every signing certificate used to sign it to be invalidated.

      How? There's a driver out there called giveio that resets the processes' I/O permissions in the task block so that using the in and out instructions don't generate an exception.

      Not really recommended these days to be honest, and if you really need to bit-bang, there are often USB HID controllers with GPIO pins you can use.

      Apple managed it, why didn't MS? They should have put a transparent VM into Vista and 7 to run binaries, drivers, etc and called it Windows Classic. They could have had everyone migrated by now and made more money in the process.

      I know right? You know, Microsoft could make it really easy and call it "Windows XP Mode"!

    15. Re:LPT bit banging by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 1

      I've got one program that runs on DOS. It's been running continously since 1995 (24x365).

      That's great, but I'm talking about right now, in 2013--not 18 years ago.

      The only crashes are when power goes out and it comes back from those crashes with no corruption and no need for a manual restart. When power comes back it just picks up where it went down. My Linux systems don't have that kind of uptime.

      Just a simple crash in Win9x would leave my file system so fucked the operating system would typically need to be completely reinstalled every few months. I have a hard time believing that DOS, which uses the same file system and *is* the core behind the Win9x series, would be much more reliable (especially during a power failure), and it's laughable that you're comparing the uptime of DOS to Linux.

      My Linux-based router would behave in the way you are describing: stays up and running until the power goes out. My desktop most likely would too if I let it, but I tend to keep it up to date and properly maintained so the uptimes don't get that high. With DOS, there basically is no such thing as maintenance: it's dead. No updates, no reboots. Just an old, creaky, antique piece of shi--er, I mean, software.

      If it weren't for hardware becoming hard to get I would keep it on DOS. It's a nice simple OS that does what it's told to do.

      My experience was that I had to fight with DOS just to get it to do what I wanted and deal with many odd behaviors, similarly to its successor Windows, but I will agree that it is extremely simple... just not very nice. It's good for nostalgia, especially classic PC gaming, but in my opinion that's about it. And with modern processors just operating way too fast to run many of these games, DOSBox seems more useful in that particular case than DOS itself.

    16. Re:LPT bit banging by amicusNYCL · · Score: 4, Funny

      Webmasters are tired of IE 8

      The hell you say! Only just yesterday I had the joy, the pure joy I tell you, to debug an IE8 issue where it would show an error message helpfully informing the user that the website was unreachable because I had the audacity to send a PDF file over HTTPS and include the standard headers to disable caching. So now my application is technically broken for everything else in that it might allow caching of those PDF files, but hey, at least IE8 works with it again.

      IE8 is seriously a pure joy to work with. Any developer who has set up a page which features HTTPS and a Flash movie inside an iframe trying to launch an external URL to an Office file (but only with Office installed!) knows what I'm talking about.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    17. Re:LPT bit banging by Mex · · Score: 1

      As a new apple user, I'm curious about this, what did Apple do? What calls up a VM on OSX? Haven't noticed anything yet.

    18. Re:LPT bit banging by tibit · · Score: 2

      So, if a microcontroller does it, it's OK, but if a PC does it, it's bad? Yeah, I know that bit-banging printer parallel ports is usually a bit retarded in light of there being really affordable digital I/O cards from multiple vendors, but still, if it works, it works. Alas, the fact that nowadays there's plenty of semi-professional CNC gear that's still bit-banged via the printer port, now that's disturbing in light of a PCI-DIO24 card costing only $99. There are also PCIe variants from multiple vendors.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    19. Re:LPT bit banging by tibit · · Score: 1

      DOS doesn't do delayed writing unless you explicitly enable it. If a power cycle while there are no filesystem writes in progress, there'll be no corruption.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    20. Re:LPT bit banging by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 1

      1) Is that not supported as a mount option in many file systems on UNIX-like operating systems?
      2) Even if it is theoretically "safe" I would still consider a proper unmount the right thing to do, and I would not just "pull the plug" under any circumstances. Doesn't matter what the OS is.

    21. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, what?

      http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/products/features/windows-xp-mode

    22. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any developer who has set up a page which features ... Flash movie ... iframe ... external URL ... Office file

      I'm perfectly happy if that particular combination of bullshit never works on any platform! Anyone seeking to implement such a thing is either a) a deployer of malware, b) someone with malicious intent, or b) not a real web developer. None of which persuades me that I want anything to do with a site they've "developed"...

      -AC

    23. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean Aeroplanes? ;-) lol

    24. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Airplain. Must be a new thing from Apple.

    25. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bit banging makes it so one less thing is needed that could fail.

      Do you seriously want to make aircraft that rely on TCP/IP to tell the ailerons to go up or down?

    26. Re:LPT bit banging by tibit · · Score: 2

      There's no such thing as an unmount in legacy DOS, I don't know about FreeDOS. When you're at the command line prompt, where writes don't "just happen", it's always safe to pull the plug. Again - as long as you don't have something like smartdisk doing delayed writes behind the scene.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    27. Re:LPT bit banging by sjames · · Score: 1

      That's great for upgrades and new hardware, but why update what already works? Hopefully, those CNC machines aren't exposing the DOS based software to the outside world anyway. One helpful thing about DOS is that it doesn't cause any scheduling jitter at all (due to having no scheduler). Would you object if the software was modified to run on the bare metal and was called 'firmware'?

      Why would you want to double the cost of the computer component just so you could bit bang a PCIe DIO card rather than the built-in LPT? (YES, double, look up MiniITX boards).

    28. Re:LPT bit banging by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 0

      There's no such thing as an unmount in legacy DOS, I don't know about FreeDOS.

      Which is exactly why I just don't feel comfortable with DOS, and would not trust it. ;)

    29. Re:LPT bit banging by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2

      I'm perfectly happy if that particular combination of bullshit never works on any platform! Anyone seeking to implement such a thing is either a) a deployer of malware, b) someone with malicious intent, or b) not a real web developer. None of which persuades me that I want anything to do with a site they've "developed"...

      You have 2 b)'s there, so I guess I'll add a c): designer of custom online training courses which the customer views through a project management test site which displays the course inside an iframe to allow it to be wrapped with a resolution switcher and bug report/feedback form. I'm sure you knew that, though. But that's hardly the point, the point is that it is yet another stupid edge-case bug in IE that hints at fundamentally poor design decisions in the browser itself, and requires me to spend time researching and fixing a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place and for which I cannot bill anybody.

      Also, what's the difference between a deployer of malware and someone with malicious intent?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    30. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      heh, i guess the exception proves the rule...

    31. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >They should have put a transparent VM into Vista and 7 to run binaries, drivers, etc and called it Windows Classic
      They totally should do it. They could call it "XP Mode".

    32. Re:LPT bit banging by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That's one of the big advantages of the Apple community with rapid adoption of OSes and associated applications.

    33. Re:LPT bit banging by jbolden · · Score: 1

      OSX doesn't ship with a VM. The most popular VM for Apple is http://www.parallels.com/

    34. Re:LPT bit banging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, if a microcontroller does it, it's OK, but if a PC does it, it's bad? Yeah, I know that bit-banging printer parallel ports is usually a bit retarded in light of there being really affordable digital I/O cards from multiple vendors, but still, if it works, it works. Alas, the fact that nowadays there's plenty of semi-professional CNC gear that's still bit-banged via the printer port, now that's disturbing in light of a PCI-DIO24 card costing only $99. There are also PCIe variants from multiple vendors.

      It's not just the hardware though. Here's a case in point, I worked for the company that polished the Chandra (X-ray telescope) mirrors, the polishers were run by... ready? Dell 386/16mhz PC's. At one point, years later, as they were looking to ship the polishing hardware to NASA (telescope was already launched), they were frantically looking for Dell 386/16 machines (DX16's, not SX :-))... because the software was *written* to the cpu speed (timing loops, etc).

      Now, it's easy to argue that the software was 'poorly designed' if it used timing loops dependent on cpu speed, and I wouldn't argue that... but point being that the software was already existing, and had been 'certified' (at a large expense) to perform to the requirements... so while, yes, you could probably buy a $99 PC-DIO24 card and use it on a modern PC to run the same hardware, rewriting the software to use that new hardware would cost you $300K.

      Same for that 'semi-professional CNC gear' - the software could probably be rewritten, but is it profitable to do so? How many people with machines that "work fine" with the existing software are going to pay for new hardware/software? If it costs a software engineer and "X" man hours, to the tune of say $150K, and you can only sell 1000 copies of it at $100 each ($100K), it's not cost effective to even develop.

  35. I think M$ will extend XP support by bobthesungeek76036 · · Score: 1, Informative

    My wife works for a hospital system and they are still on XP and have no migration plans as of yet. I think there are enough companies like that out there that will force M$ to continue patch support past the 4/8/14 deadline...

    --
    Karma: Bad
    1. Re:I think M$ will extend XP support by mrbester · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No there aren't. Extended support began 5 years ago. 5 years is long enough for even monolithic dinosaurs like government and hospitals to get their shit together to prepare for the inevitable. Except they did nothing and still expect everything. Bollocks to the lot of them.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    2. Re:I think M$ will extend XP support by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Well, more precisely, I think XP entered extended support around Vista SP2 release, and Win7 was months away by then.

    3. Re:I think M$ will extend XP support by mrbester · · Score: 1

      By "nothing" I mean that in the last 5 years they haven't even started an analysis of what it would entail to upgrade. The planning of an upgrade can only happen based on that analysis and then you have the actual rollout. I'd say they're at least 7 years behind schedule.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    4. Re:I think M$ will extend XP support by tapspace · · Score: 1

      Extended support began 5 years ago.

      They were still selling machines with Windows XP around 6-7 years ago. The fact is for many computers, 3 years is a reasonable lifetime. But, for many others 10-15 years is a reasonable lifetime.

      5 years is long enough for even monolithic dinosaurs like government and hospitals to get their shit together to prepare for the inevitable.

      Maybe in many cases, computers were just purchased (or software) budgeted to last 12 years. It's a hard pill to swallow that Microsoft, who makes a chunk on every computer sold is going to kill your budget, shortening the lifetime to 7-8 years.

    5. Re:I think M$ will extend XP support by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      How do you force MS to keep supporting XP? Seriously.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    6. Re:I think M$ will extend XP support by jbolden · · Score: 1

      How will they force them? Microsoft has announced this date, except for extending it twice for over a decade. The hospital deliberately choose to ignore instructions to upgrade when told to. Now of course Microsoft might work out some sort of arrangement like $100 per system per month for extended support beyond the date if there is enough interest, but I'm not sure they want the bad publicity from even offering a high end support contract to the skin flint customers still on XP.

    7. Re:I think M$ will extend XP support by jbolden · · Score: 1

      But, for many others 10-15 years is a reasonable lifetime.

      Microsoft has never ever ever claimed to sell machines with a 10-15 support lifetime. Rather they have said much the opposite. Anyone using Windows with such support goals in mind is misusing the product. IBM offers products on those sorts of support cycles.

      sold is going to kill your budget, shortening the lifetime to 7-8 years.

      Microsoft likely is going to shorten it more than that. They've allowed this culture of long product life cycles to develop to everyone's detriment.

  36. Well, would you choose a GM Saturn over a Toyota o by coutysd · · Score: 1

    Well, would you choose a GM Saturn over a Toyota or Honda?

  37. Nothing New by tuppe666 · · Score: 1

    I don't think providing extended-extended support for a customer base who is migrating away from microsoft products is going to make microsoft very much money in the long term.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/09/business/fi-micropiracy9 "Piracy also prevents free, open-source alternatives such as Linux from chipping away at Microsoft's monopolies, especially in developing nations."

    Nothing has changed simply because Microsoft is heading towards a self generated deadline.

  38. Linux with XP virtual machine by oregonjohn · · Score: 1

    Surf and email with Linux, use MS Office or whatever other applications on XP in a virtual machine. Same XP, just inside a safe place.

  39. I've stuck with XP because by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    Vista was a flaming piece of shit, Windows 7 addressed some of the issues with Vista but it still grated because features that have been in a common place on Windows since NT4 got shifted just to be cute. Same as what happened to Office in version 2007 and up. That fucking ribbon shit.

    And then there's Windows 8. First of all I don't want a mobile operating system running on my desktop or laptop. And I've even seen Win8 on the Nokia phone - it's disgusting. That tiled interface is for the dogs. And the issue with Microsoft's Surface tablet - it can't run the same apps because of the processor difference. That's why Microsoft is dropping prices like the proverbial rock on that platform. Plus Windows 8 on a laptop - lest one has a touch screen on it, it blows big time.

    I'm considering just going Unix full time. Probably Ubuntu when I do. But I need the MS Office Apps. I do a lot of development for Access and Excel in VBA and that just isn't available for Unix/Linux. I support I could see if it'll run under WINE but honestly, that's a hoop I really don't want to have to jump through.

    1. Re:I've stuck with XP because by m.alessandrini · · Score: 2

      I do a lot of development for Access and Excel in VBA

      So you're part of the problem! :-)

    2. Re:I've stuck with XP because by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Win8.1 fixes some of the problems, and will be released before XP ends support.

    3. Re:I've stuck with XP because by kilodelta · · Score: 1

      Can't help it.

    4. Re:I've stuck with XP because by kilodelta · · Score: 1

      Yes I know that. But again, I've had a sour enough experience with Win8 that I really don't want to touch it. Sure you can run all sorts of shit to make it look like XP or 7, but it's still a fucking mobile operating system. And the public knows that.

  40. We need to understand what "retire" means by roc97007 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'll let you in on a little secret -- a lot of embedded control systems are still running Windows 98. Test by: Stick around when a bottle return machine is rebooted.

    In other words. What is China going to do when XP is "retired"? You're kidding, right?

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:We need to understand what "retire" means by ruir · · Score: 1

      It is not they will notice the difference, most of them are pirated and don't do regular upgrades anyway.

    2. Re:We need to understand what "retire" means by m.alessandrini · · Score: 2

      Here in Italy, until a couple years ago, the ticket machines at the train stations were running OS/2.

    3. Re:We need to understand what "retire" means by sqrt(2) · · Score: 2

      Why do I keep seeing this meme repeated all over a tech site of all places? Windows (including 7 and 8) has been completely cracked and broken to the point where pirate copies are indistinguishable even to Microsoft. They couldn't cut off the pirate copies even if they wanted to. The pirate copies are actually EASIER to activate and keep updated since it's all automatic, no messing with keys.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    4. Re:We need to understand what "retire" means by ruir · · Score: 1

      You are talking about technically inclined people. Most of the people I guess they don't even care if is updated or not.

  41. Strange way of measuring Support by tuppe666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When XP's EOL comes, Microsoft will have supported it for nearly 13 years. How long do you want them to support it for?

    Yet was only replaced 6 years ago by Vista, and did not have a real alternative till Windows 7. In fact Microsoft sold XP well beyond its Vista Operating Systems to starve off the mobile threat...then in the less threatening Netbook form, XP was used to stave of Linux. A strategy that gained them a few years Windows revenue at the cost of letting the iPad...and now Android into the Personal Computer Space.

    In answer to your question...long enough not to let your competitors through the door. Especially if your strategy is to license your OS to *Manufacturers* not customers.

  42. Re: Too addicted to IE 6 by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    Thanks to the US export restrictions on encryption the Asians use ActiveX obtracities for banking and web shopping written in VB 6 with many designed for IE 6.

    Many slashdotters ignorantly think the 10% of IE 6 users are all corps. They are almost all Chinese and Korean users. The good news is Xihnu and ebay are now updating their sites to work with IE 8.

    What does that mean? Like the corps Linux and anything later than 2001 is a no go.

    I swear that browser is more of a nightmare than Windows ever was for lockin.

  43. Discount Win 8.1 by Aggrajag · · Score: 1

    IMHO, the best solution might be a a new round of massive discounts after Windows 8.1 is released. This applies also elsewhere than just China. The only solution to get people to adopt Windows 8 is to get them to upgrade from Windows 7 and a really cheap price like $19.99 is the only option for MS.

    1. Re:Discount Win 8.1 by ruir · · Score: 1

      You are missing the point. First, most of them use pirate versions. Then, they have a mentality, if aint broke, don't fix it. On top of that, the old machines won't run windows 8 anyway. And why get away from something familiar and that you know how it works?

    2. Re:Discount Win 8.1 by Aggrajag · · Score: 1

      I didn't even think about the actual point from the Chinese point of view...

    3. Re:Discount Win 8.1 by jbolden · · Score: 1

      What good does that do? Those machines are Windows 7 machines: no touchscreen, no adjustable hinge, no high resolution touchpad.... Who cares if they upgrade from Windows 7 or Windows 8 or not?

  44. Taxes by ebonum · · Score: 5, Informative

    China's whole tax system works on a printed documents called a fapiao (fa-piao).
    Every company in China has at least one dedicated machine with a special dot matrix printer to print fapiaos.
    The software to print fapiaos only runs on Windows XP.

    It can not be understated how critical fapiaos are to China's tax system. Big companies use them to pay the 17% VAT (some services and logistics companies pay less than 17%). If you lose the fapiao you get from your supplier, you might as we have lost actual cash. You must have it to offset the VAT you owe. During your annual tax review, you must have fapiaos to keep your taxes low. These are so important, there is a booming business in faking fapiaos. This is mostly done through fake transactions. Faking the actual fapiao is not so easy these days. Each fapiao carries a unique number and can the traced.

    If you go out to eat, you can demand a fapiao. For westerners, this can be submitted to reduce your taxes. The top tax rate is 45%, so fapiaos are very valuable. For local Chinese, they submit them as a business/company expense. For people working in restaurants, this is a source of extra cash. If a customer doesn't ask for a fapiao, the employees can print one anyway. On the black market, these can be sold for 5-10 cents on the dollar. The same applies to cab drivers. Many passengers don't take their receipt. The receipt is a valid fapiao that can be used to reduce taxes. The cab drivers will sell them for extra cash. Just ask. :)

    1. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like how the tax regime creates a market for fapiaos, and that this sub-economy seems to serve its purpose without a ton of government nit-picking and form-filling, and even creates some secondary business along the way.

      Deus Ex explains it best, CONVERSATION: BARTENDER (ISAAC)

      ISAAC
      Beer is 15; wine is 120.

      JC DENTON
      Can I ask you something?

      ISAAC
      What do you want to know?

      JC DENTON
      Despite all I've read about the Triads, I wasn't prepared to see them operating
      in the open, on the streets, and wearing uniforms. Doesn't the Chinese
      government care?

      ISAAC
      The Chinese leave Hong Kong alone. They barricade the roads to control trade to
      the mainland, but they know how business is done.

      JC DENTON
      I would think the secret smuggling operations of the Triads would disturb the
      Chinese government.

      ISAAC
      Maybe the Luminous Path, but China knows that the Red Arrow are business owners,
      entrepreneurs, community leaders, and that they protect the city from outside
      influences.

      JC DENTON
      You said "outside influences." What does China fear?

      ISAAC
      China is the last sovereign country in the world. Authoritarian but willing --
      unlike U.N.-governed countries -- to give its people the freedom to do what they
      want.

      JC DENTON
      As long as they don't break the law.

      ISAAC
      Listen to me. This is real freedom, freedom to own property, make a profit, make
      your life. The West, so afraid of strong government, now has no government. Only
      financial power.

      JC DENTON
      Our governments have limited power by design.

      ISAAC
      Rhetoric... And you believe it! Don't you know where these slogans come from?

      JC DENTON
      I give up.

      ISAAC
      Well-paid researchers -- how do you say it? -- "think tanks," funded by big
      businesses. What is that? A "think tank"?

      JC DENTON
      Hardly as sinister as a dictator, like China's Premier.

      ISAAC
      It's privately-funded propaganda. The Trilateral Commission in the United
      States, for instance.

      JC DENTON
      The separation of powers acknowledges the petty ambitions of individuals; that's
      its strength.

      ISAAC
      A system organized around the weakest qualities of individuals will produce
      these same qualities in its leaders.

      JC DENTON
      Perhaps certain qualities are an inseparable part of human nature.

      ISAAC
      The mark of the educated man is the suppression of these qualities in favor of
      better ones. The same is true of civilization.

      JC DENTON
      I'll get a drink later.

    2. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How long till the iFapio app is released?

    3. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WOW! Use full info in the comments on /. Its been so long that I had forgotten that it could actually happen! Thank you!

  45. Re:Well, would you choose a GM Saturn over a Toyot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they're all shit these days..overpriced shit..

  46. It's Microsoft's problem, not China's. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Microsoft wanted a monopoly and they got it. Now it is up to them to preserve or loose it. Hint, demanding tribute from those who have nothing to give is not the answer.

  47. easy solution by ruir · · Score: 2

    Microsoft pays to all this "anti-virus" labs to instead of writing mild viruses to sell their products, write one that wipes out all of the XPs after a couple of months of being installed.

    1. Re:easy solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't they already do this?

  48. EONS!! by EzInKy · · Score: 1

    Microsoft could have ruled forever if they but chose to open source their OS and gave it away for free. Instead what they do? Money today, death tomorrow.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  49. And when they do support old cars by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    It is at a heavy cost. A car receives support anywhere close to as we think of it in the software world for only a few years or a certain mileage limit. During that time, if there are problems, they fix it. However after that, it is your dollar. Also it is only repairs, no updates.

    I have a 1996 car and the dealer will still work on it, you can get parts, but the charge quite a bit for both the parts and labour. There are no updates to it, no improvements. Subsequent models got a more powerful, turbocharged, engine but I don't get to have that retrofitted unless I want to spend serious money (and the dealer won't do it, someone else would have to).

    People need to STFU about MS support as it is actually very good. Their OS support is 10 years from date of initial release. So when an OS comes out you are guaranteed security fixes for at least 10 years from the release date. Sometimes they'll extend that, but you get at least 10 years. That is split in to 5 years of general support, meaning it tends to get service packs and often new features, and 5 years of extended support meaning it tends to get only security updates.

    That's not a bad lifecycle. Even the LTS very of Ubutnu is only 5 years, OS-X is two version behind the current, which translates to like 3-4 years. At 10 years of support, with no subscription or anything, MS is not bad.

    It isn't like this XP thing is sneaking up on people, it has been known for a long time, some people are just choosing not to deal with it.

    Also, realistically, if you get the most current Windows on your computer when you buy it, it'll last for the life of the computer. Even if it is a couple years in to support, the computer is likely to be very old and slow, and probably breaking down, by the time it goes out. For example if you bought a system with Windows 8 on it today, it would go out of support in January of 2023. My guess is that 9.5 years from now, whatever you bought will be showing its age pretty badly, if it even still runs, and be due for a replacement. Heck even a system with 7 goes out of support in January of 2020. So over 6 years until you'd need to upgrade, and again, might be new system time at that point.

    1. Re:And when they do support old cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with windows is that when upgrading you lose hardware support. If the hardware worked with your old linux kernel it will work with your new kernel, meaning that upgrading wont break hardware support.

    2. Re:And when they do support old cars by jrumney · · Score: 1

      Also it is only repairs, no updates.

      Not quite true. They do issue the equivalent of security updates. My car had a whole new part added that did not exist when I bought it, to catch and redirect the condensation that drips down from the air-conditioning pipes onto the steering rack.

    3. Re:And when they do support old cars by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      Not always true. It depends on if the drivers are actively maintained. If a big kernel level change comes along and breaks something that an unmaintained driver depends on, its up to you to fix it.... but at least you have that option unlike closed source Windows drivers.

    4. Re:And when they do support old cars by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      You can also "back port" improved parts from the newer models. This is common in VW Group cars as many platforms share quite a bit of parts with previous models.

    5. Re:And when they do support old cars by Pinhedd · · Score: 1

      That's not true at all. Linux support is only maintained if someone is actually maintaining the driver in the kernel. If the kernel driver interface changes, the driver breaks. If it doesn't get maintained, it gets removed. The same is true for Windows.

    6. Re:And when they do support old cars by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      All you say is true except the last part I don't agree with. A PC from 2003 is still useful, or let's put the line at something with PCIe, SATA and upgraded to at least 2GB ram. My five-year-old PC still works great, it has a couple warts that can be easily fixed and it's mostly the significantly older monitor that sucks. It's actually more powerful than new stuff that comes out (like Celeron 1.1GHz laptops).
      I think that 10 years from now you will have trouble finding a 2013 Windows 8 PC that is slow and sucks, unless laden with malware or shit software. Or maybe it'll run fast with malware, if it has an SSD.

  50. Best defense in the universe: no javascript by jjohn_h · · Score: 1

    Once upom time I did care about updating my XP. Then about 3 years ago the updates stopped installing, they would loop forever. Apparently a MS bug. They released a fix, the fix didn't work for me.

    The news: no malware, no virus, no intruders for the past 3 years. The recipe: no javascript. And even Slashdot becomes readable.

    1. Re:Best defense in the universe: no javascript by lunasee · · Score: 1

      And even Slashdot becomes readable.

      You mean it removes all of the low brow comments?

  51. That's how basically all companies do it by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Look at Ubuntu: They support standard releases for a year (they've reduced it) and LTS releases for 5 years. That means from the date of initial release. RHEL is 10 years of support for their 5 and 6 releases (7 for 3 and 4) and then you can buy 3 more years of support for extra money.

    OS-X is a bit different in that Apple supports two version older than the current one. That in practice means about 3-4 years of support, but is harder to plan since you don't know how fast releases will come, you don't get a defined, guaranteed, cycle.

    So... Where's the company that gives a much longer/better support cycle? Because I sure don't see it.

    1. Re:That's how basically all companies do it by justthinkit · · Score: 1
      It is not about "support" -- personally I've never phoned Microsoft despite 30 years in the business. It is about deliberate breakage. Windows 8 won't run 16-bit Windows binaries -- major deliberate breakage, with no thunking layer, for some unknown reason. Does Ubuntu do this? I doubt it. Does Apple do this? Probably not as severely.
      .

      As the monopoly power Microsoft can do what they want. They, more than any other company, choose to deliberately break stuff (the ribbon(s) breaks the interface(s) we all know and love, just as the start tile fiasco does). The interesting thing is that Microsoft breaks stuff because they realized, I think before Windows 95, that they made things too well in the early years and so people simply chose not to upgrade at all. Steady, on-going, breakage is essential to get people sick of one product and anxious for the next one. Movies accomplish this with "trailers" (actually they are spoilers), and saturation advertising/showings. Think of how easy it will be for Microsoft to make a start menu that is better than the start screen -- they have paved the way for future upgrades with the downgrades of Vista & Windows 8.

      Windows XP is the Plymouth Valiant of operating systems. Not the most elegant, but certainly one of the most durable. Too durable in fact. Windows 8 is like the Chevrolet Aveo -- "cheap, uncomfortable and disposable". [And Linux is like an International Scout -- surprisingly workable but relatively unknown].

      --
      I come here for the love
    2. Re:That's how basically all companies do it by jbolden · · Score: 1

      It is not about "support" -- personally I've never phoned Microsoft despite 30 years in the business. It is about deliberate breakage. Windows 8 won't run 16-bit Windows binaries -- major deliberate breakage, with no thunking layer, for some unknown reason. Does Ubuntu do this? I doubt it. Does Apple do this? Probably not as severely.

      Huh? Win32 was standard by 1995. Let's take a comparison
      June 6, 2005: Switch to Intel from PPC announced
      January 10, 2006: First Intel based systems sold
      August 7, 2006: No more PPC systems available.
      August 28, 2009: First OS with no PPC hardware support
      July 20, 2011: First OS with no PPC application support.

      Apple is much more aggressive about obsolesce.

      As for Ubuntu. Linux has an different model because people can compile their own applications. But Ubuntu didn't even exist until 2004.

  52. Why change when ... by dbIII · · Score: 2

    Why change when so much software is still being churned out as 32 bit, single threaded and doesn't run reliably without Admin permissions?
    As long as we have so many software developers stuck in 1995 then even XP is overkill.

    1. Re:Why change when ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be honest, I think even installers should run without admin by default. There's no reason why installers shouldn't default to a user-level install and have an option under "advanced" or something in the installer to install for all users. Hard drive space is at a premium, so that's not a problem, and as a bonus to the security benefits of not requiring elevation on every install, you also get an easy way to have per-user settings in your application. It's a win-win, provided your application actually works on a user-level (and in 99% of cases, there's no reason it shouldn't).

  53. Ubuntu by tuppe666 · · Score: 1

    So... Where's the company that gives a much longer/better support cycle? Because I sure don't see it.

    Microsoft is the the only one pushing the OEM model sold to manufactures. GNU/Linux is Open/Free sold on services...Which is why even the latest of its regular releases of a few months old work on XP computers. Apple is moving towards being an Electronics company (Microsofts Wet Dream) using its OS to differentiate itself from others. They expect you...and demand you update every few years.

    Ubuntu if your updating your software...Although some would argue Apple if your updating your hardware. Oh you mean support, by standing still.

  54. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  55. Most people in china turn auto update off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Most people in china turn off windows auto update to save internet usage. So stopping patches wont do any difference.

    1. Re:Most people in china turn auto update off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah most people in china have auto update turned off because their windows xp is pirated.

    2. Re:Most people in china turn auto update off by fbobraga · · Score: 1

      because their windows xp is pirated

      stoled from ships?

  56. Most Chinese computers are already infected by VernorVinge · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In May, Panda Labs (not Express) published a study suggesting that 55% of computers in China are infected by malware. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/half-chinas-computers-infected-malware-study-finds-1B8290982 I had the pleasure of cleaning up malware on friends' computers while living in China, back when XP was the dominant OS. Though my sample size was small, I believe the Panda Labs number comes much closer to reality than what is captured by the afterthought that is Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool. Popular programs like QQ are laden with security holes that essentially invite any hacker to take control of a PC. The end of XP updates may cause extra few million computers to be infected, but it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the true problem. My advice is- don't trust personal computers in China or email servers in China.

    --
    Stay skeptical, my friends.
    1. Re:Most Chinese computers are already infected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is why most hacking attempts originate in China. Just think of China as equivalent to the biggest botnet on the planet.

  57. Xp user here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally i still have one XP running mychine still at home. I have laser printer that dosent work with anything newer, no theres no drivers for it. Works just fine under XP and i use it to print out pdf, documents, etc...

  58. That will NOT be Chinas problem... by Hymer · · Score: 1

    ...that will be Microsoft's problem.
    They will have to either sell Win7 (or 8) to greatly reduced price or see 1 billion "customers" change either to Linux or ReactOS.

    1. Re:That will NOT be Chinas problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ReactOS isn't quite ready, but if the chinese threw a couple million dollars at it, it wouldn't take long.

  59. PC-BSD by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Better idea - PC-BSD. Either the driver will exist, or it won't, whereas w/ Linux, you'll have to match the driver version w/ the right kernel & library & what have you.

    1. Re:PC-BSD by laffer1 · · Score: 1

      Not sure I agree with this. In the event someone wanted to use a binary blob (nvidia driver for example) or the official realtek driver vs what's included in the kernel, it would only work with some kernel versions. In FreeBSD, you don't get completely away from kernel version. Similarly, ports or (pc bsd packages in this case) would need to match for X related things.

  60. time to move out of beta! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i think enough beta testing has been done.
    finally M$ can ship their first truly polished product: windows XP!
    pink blue brown red

  61. Ubuntu to the resque by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm positive that in 90% of the cases XP kan be readily replaced with Ubuntu and Wine!

    1. Re:Ubuntu to the resque by Mike+Frett · · Score: 1

      Don't know if you're joking or what AC, but that's actually true. At least for me and my brother, Wine runs our 'old' games and such perfectly and for everything thing else (browsing etc) the OS, Xubuntu in our case; just works. And might I add, without having to install clumsy drivers to make things function. Linux and Mac is the Plug n' Play that MS always dreamed about.

      This is a long thread, seems there are a lot of people here that simply don't care about the NSA backdoors. I don't know if it's ignorance or they aren't savvy enough to ditch their MS crutch.

  62. China only have 17 actual legal copies of XP :) by CypherOz · · Score: 1

    Lets face it, there are not many licensed copies of XP in China. Meh!

    --
    You want a signature? You can't handle a signature!!
  63. Make their own OS? by Sait-kun · · Score: 2

    Wouldn't it be much easier, cheaper and more secure if the Chinese government would develop their own OS from scratch?

    Even though many of us do not agree with the way the Chinese government runs the country but they - unlike most countries - have the ability to make things happen.
    They have plenty of highly skilled coders en plenty of resources, I believe it's one of the few countries that can pull it off successfully.

    This will give them many advantages:

    - Full source control
    - More secure / not dependable on other parties to fix issues.
    - Can be catered to the needs of the government / Chinese people.

  64. Re:Make their own OS? by StarWreck · · Score: 2

    They did release their own OS, a crappy one based on Ubuntu. Nobody uses it.

    --
    ... and in the DRM, bind them.
  65. Christ, just fork the OS division already. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One on the XP codebase, one on the shitty Vista codebase that nobody wants at all.
    Problem solved.

    Oh wait, I forgot Microsoft are becoming a hardware and services company.
    Six million unsold Surfaces. God knows how many phones. They don't stand a chance. RIP.

  66. OMFG - Chinese Linux Deepin - NO XP PROBLEM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go home Slashdot, you're drunk.. they've got http://www.linuxdeepin.com/index.cn.html absof**kinglutely the best M$ imitation out there. NO XP PROBLEM.

  67. Windows xp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its just my guess but windows xp will probably live on for another 20 - 30 years in virtual machines.

  68. XP User by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My HTPC runs XP, because it was the "winner" from Ubuntu, Mythbuntu, straight Debian, another Linux flavor (something xfce-related, iirc), Windows 2000, Windows 7, and XP. Between the HDMI video and the TV card, that's what worked best. So, in 8 months, I'm going to be scrambling again. Hopefully, there's a distro that has gotten better, but I doubt it. I've always had video issues with Linux, to the point that my last laptop was the one model they offered that shipped with Ubuntu, so that I knew the graphics worked, at the expense of all other desired features. On that note, I don't actually run Ubuntu, but rather Lubuntu. Very happy with it.

  69. Only if you plan on not stealing by gelfling · · Score: 1

    So they're fine. It's not as if more than 1% of those copies are legit anyway.

  70. xp never quite worked on some hardware by dbIII · · Score: 1
    My point is that by the time of XP every other 32 bit OS on the same hardware, including some from Microsoft, DID support more than 4GB memory.
    It's a direct answer to your line:

    64 bit OS, allowing >4GB memory?

    The only failure to deliver on the right hardware is XP. I seem to remember that even on multi-CPU systems XP still had the 4GB ceiling per system while Win2k could address that much per CPU without even using PAE. It was a cut down system for home computers that just happened to be good enough in a lot of offices, but it was a bit of a spit in the face of the consumer who had to settle for something not entirely compatible with any of the CPUs available when it was released.

  71. China has the source anyway by sproketboy · · Score: 1

    China has the source anyway so they'll just maintain their own edition of XP for the chinese market. What's Microsoft going to be able to do about that?

    1. Re:China has the source anyway by Hartree · · Score: 1

      Exactly. China has more than enough programmers to fix major bugs given that they have the source already. It may not be as fast a turnaround as MS, but if it's a major problem to the Chinese government, they'll do at least some fixes. Heck, they can also put in some of their own "security" fixes that report back on unsanctioned activities (visiting a Falun Gong web site, for example).

      If they want to create a fig leaf of cover, they just say that the new updates are the result of independent hackers *wink* *nudge* that they have no control over, despite being served from government owned servers and signed with PRC government owned certificates. "Aw shucks. Wonder how they did that."

  72. So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would China care about security updates when they are the ones exploiting all of the security vulnerabilities?

  73. Just sell them Microsoft by Rambo+Tribble · · Score: 1

    It would be the biggest espionage coup of all time.

  74. Re: Too addicted to IE 6 by Clsid · · Score: 1

    What are you talking about? Because banks like ICBC, Bank of China and Agricultural Bank of China works just fine with other browsers and other operating systems while we are it. ICBC in particular has even more sophosticated security measures than Bank of America.

  75. Statistics... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are like assholes, everyone has one.

    Fact of the matter is, those numbers are skewed. There are way more than 16% XP users in the U.S.

  76. Charge for Updates by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm surprised MS hasn't announced they're moving to a model where XP patches are available as part of a subscription service - I'd pay $2 per month to keep Windows update running on my XP machine - Just tie Windows update to a Windows Live account, with a credit card attached to that. Corporate customers could purchase a site license. If there really are millions upon millions of XP machines out there, there must be some money to be made here.

  77. What If China Stole The Source Code? by hduff · · Score: 1

    If China would just steal the WinXP source code and publish it, the world community would not only continue to provide security updates, but probably fix all the bugs.

    --
    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  78. Still Using Win2K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is bulloney. I'm still running w2k SP4 on one of my computers. It is behind a router fire wall and works just fine. If it ain't broke don't fix it. The only reason I have Windows 7 is because I had to buy a new laptop.

    1. Re:Still Using Win2K by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

      Great post.

      Why do people act as if their computer will explode the instant MS stops supporting the OS?

      I used win2k for years after MS stopped support.

      Seems to me China has, easily, three years to upgrade. What is the great panic?

  79. Re: Too addicted to IE 6 by QQBoss · · Score: 1

    Postal Service Bank's log-in only works with IE (fails on Chrome and Firefox last I tested), but at least it works with IE8.

  80. When a web app says "Your browser is too old" by tepples · · Score: 1

    if they don't need another browser why would they need to discover Firefox.

    People come to need another browser when a web application that they use raises an error message:

    This web application requires browser features not present in old versions of Windows Internet Explorer.
    Fix this | Continue in reduced functionality mode

    This can be a web application that someone just discovered or an update to a web application that one has used for months or years. And "old versions of Internet Explorer" is usually IE <= 8, but it can also be IE <= 10 in the case of a WebGL visualization of the visual cortex.

    And why Firefox above all other non-IE browsers?

    On Windows XP, it's pretty much either Firefox or Chrome, and the "Fix this" page would explain the pros and cons of Firefox and Chrome. For example, Chrome synchronizes with Chrome on your Android smartphone, but Firefox sends less information to Google. Firefox allows setting a master password on its password storage even on an operating system without a built-in keychain.

  81. Virtualization has a time overhead by tepples · · Score: 1

    Windows 7 Professional provides XP Mode for applications, as other Anonymous Coward replies to your comment pointed out. But virtualization has a time overhead, and I don't see how timing-sensitive device drivers can be made to work transparently in a virtual machine.

    1. Re:Virtualization has a time overhead by tibit · · Score: 1

      Modern virtualization has not much in the way of time overhead due to execution of code. Its primary overheads come from cache and translation table purges as the contexts are switched.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    2. Re:Virtualization has a time overhead by tepples · · Score: 1

      And guess what happens whenever I/O takes place: a context switch.

    3. Re:Virtualization has a time overhead by tibit · · Score: 1

      Given that modern hardware uses memory mapped I/O that doesn't require context switches, that's less of a concern. Even better, DMA usually takes care of actually accessing hardware's I/O space, so it's really hands off.

      I'm not even sure that modern virtualization needs context switches on non-memory-mapped I/O. Someone familiar with Intel's voluminous documentation would be better suited to answer that. In any case, I'd think that all modern PCI bridges let you map I/O space into memory space anyway.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  82. You can have my XP when you pry it from my dead gn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can have my XP when you pry it from my dead gnarly fingers. If you set up XP correctly by making key group policy & registry changes along with smart security practices, it is ultra fast, rock solid (for a day - long enough until the next 6 second reboot) and secure. I run Win7x64 on the host but 80% of my work occurs in Oracle VMs via XP or OpenBSD guest. I use vbox for everything from VS2010 to SlimServer (music) to Adobe Master Suite - except for VS2012 which MS intentionally crippled to XP. I cruise the inet via an extremely locked down XP SP3, that has zero updates, inside a snapshot vbox. Once a day (or if something "weird" happens, firefox crash etc) I run a script to restore the snapshot back to clean. I've never a single problem with XP and plan to never stop using it. The shell if far superior to anything else ms put out. PS: 3rd party software added to fix XP weaknesses such as Filelocator pro, textpad, etc...

  83. Microsoft OS sales to China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now that China is forced to move from XP I think Microsoft can look forward to selling a single copy of its Windows 7 OS to China!

  84. how many are legit though by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    All fine and dandy to plug out the stats, but stats can be manipulated. If 80% of the xp out in china are all illegal copies, they already have no updates coming in, as they have been black listed and are running without windows updates turned on, and the genuine advantage disabled. This means that NOTHING will change, and all will continue as it has....they will still be using cloned copies and move into the 22nd century still using xp, ;)

  85. Rankin by justthinkit · · Score: 1

    Or Rankin.

    --
    I come here for the love
    1. Re:Rankin by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's good too. First time I've heard about it.

  86. Shina has difficulty upgrading... by ssufficool · · Score: 0

    when they can't easily pirate Windows 7.

  87. All too serious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems obvious that there are a large amount of humans that find WindowsXP sufficient to accomplish their computing tasks. Why would Microsoft kill something that is still going strong. From a sales perspective forcing humans to upgrade is not working so work WITH it instead of against and give the humans what they want.

    So you developers out there...keep in mind that just because you have learned new tricks with fancy new software doesn't give you the right to criticize others that have established a working situation.

    If i where Microsoft i would stop support for WindowsXP when they said they would and offer a cheap upgrade to WindowsXP 2014. A percentage of existing XP users will upgrade to 7 or 8 or Linux etc but the vast majority are likely to pay for XP again.
       

  88. Chinese XP by brunnegd · · Score: 1

    The ChiComs will just make a "Chinese Copy" :)

  89. Hardware plus software. by niftymitch · · Score: 1
    How can it be a problem?

    It is an opportunity to cut the string to MS and deploy their own.

    Linux or Android is poised to fill in the gap on what is surely venerable hardware.

    Or they could roll their own...

    Despite the subject this old dog will not go poof the day MS backs away. It will simply live on and fester. By all /. Accounts the sources to the older version of MS stuff have bee slurped up. Combine this with the piles of national debt paper to use as a pry bar they could demand fixes or the "right" to fix their own problems.

    One very real possible outcome is that this will crack the MS hold on a large part of the world's desktops.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  90. Win98? by cwsumner · · Score: 1

    What makes you think the Chinese ever upgraded out of Windows 98 ? Microsoft only knows about the ones that registered XP.

  91. Translating MMIO to MMIO by tepples · · Score: 1

    Given that modern hardware uses memory mapped I/O that doesn't require context switches

    Except programs running on the virtual machine access the virtual machine's I/O, and the VM program needs to map that to the host machine's I/O in a way that does not interfere with other programs running on the host machine. For example, video memory has been memory-mapped since the PC was first sold, but users of PC-based VM programs still expect to be able to redirect the virtual machine's display to a window.

  92. Legal copies? by CHIT2ME · · Score: 1

    "But in China, 72.1% of the country's computers relied on the soon-to-retire operating system last month, or nearly three out of every four systems." I'll bet that 75% of these operating systems are illegal copies, so, who cares?!!!!

    --
    My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
  93. culture by jbolden · · Score: 1

    I agree with your points. I actually think the differences are cultural more than technological.

    Desktop:
    Windows has far and away the least educated and the least motivated user base.
    Apple has a very strong policy of forced upgrades which allows them to respond to security threat vectors incredibly aggressively and quickly.

    Server:
    Linux has tremendous diversity
    Linux has a long standing tradition of software with rare exceptions coming from the distribution not 1st parties
    Linux has a reputation of security patches being free so Apache, MySQL (similar to Exchange in usage) get patches fast.

  94. Backing down by jbolden · · Score: 1

    Microsoft backdown on previous deadlines because of netbooks. At the time they weren't willing to see a non Microsoft OS take the low end of the market. With phones and tablets that's a done deal. They need their OEMs and customers to move up market, spending more. What upside would there be for them to back down?