Slashdot Mirror

Do you really think that Film Gimp has no Hollywood contributors?

Adobe can certainly be blamed for dropping support in this case. There's no reason that they should have stopped releasing updates to the camera raw plugin for CS1 this early.

If Adobe releases new plugins for CS2 but doesn't for CS1 then yes they are to blame. Then again I don't know why they'd do that, plugins shouldn't depend on what version of PS it is being installed in. Afterall other companies also make plugins for PS. Forcing photographers, a big market for PS, to have the latest PS would make a lot of them furious. As it is now though I'm a photographer, amateur not professional, I can't justify the cost of CS or even just PH. If I had to pay to upgrade everytime a new version came out I wouldn't use it. Actually because of the cost I think I'll get something else. Gimp, though it doesn't have all the capabilities of PS is one. Corel Painter is another. Of course to get all that PS can do a number of different programs would be needed but that would be cheaper than paying to upgrade PH all the tyme. Actually to work on my programming I've been thinking of contributing to a FOSS graphics program like GIMP.

I hate replying to myself
I hate replying to you too!
[rimshot]

(No offense intended, just couldn't resist the straight line! :)

Back on topic - I would agree that Linux probably is the best answer. However, there are various freeware/shareware apps for image editing under Windows that are scriptable. E.g. our faithful friend Gimp

You are a nasty little fellow aren't you?
GTK+ is fine for things like GUI but not for things like database access. Java is a more complete cross platform solution.
Guess what buddy. I did not write the MFC code. I was called on to help make it more portable. Even parts of the code that where not GUI where full of CStrings and a bunch of other crap. That is is why I said for goodness sakes use Boost and STL. Maybe you have not heard of them. Frankly I am suggesting we go to QT for the cross platform library.
As far as heads up an arse...
Let me explain one thing about programing in the REAL WORLD. I.E. Where you get a paycheck for doing it. Often you do not get to choose what library and or toolkit to use. If other people may have to help on the project or support it after you are gone you have to pick a library that everyone knows. Also as little as a year or two ago GTK+ was not all that stable under Windows.
From the CURRENT GTK+ page on Gimp.org
http://www.gimp.org/~tml/gimp/win32/

Warnings
Program(s) that use these libraries might crash unexpectedly or behave otherwise strangely. (But of course, so does much software on Windows.) The stability seems to depend a lot on the machine, display drivers, other software installed, and whatnot. Using NT-based Windows versions (Windows 2000 or better) is very much recommended.

Hummm since I have had no stability problems with java and at least one of them is mission critical and has not had any downtime for 3+ years. WHY is GTK+ a better solution?

bad science and anti-science rhetoric in one post

Yeah, seriously. Leonbrooks should think twice about attaching his sig ("Got time? Spend a little of it coding or testing.") to posts like that, because any Google search which happens to connect that URL to these opinions will appear as a disinvitation. If you're begging smart people to help your project, such broad insults to the ideas of intelligence aren't the best way to attract them.

His laughable attacks on "Materialism" reduce down to the fact that it's not optimistic enough. Sorry buddy, but sometimes the truth is harsh.

I recommend notepad, or a nice IDE. Invest in the latest version of Paintshop Pro (it's all you need and much cheaper than Photoshop), or tough it out with The GIMP Read up on CSS based layout, and if you're feeling especially adventurous, buy a book on PHP and MySQL. I can't stress enough the importance of CSS based layout. Keeping content and structure separate from layout and design will let you refine your skills and perfect the look of the site without tinkering with the core of it.

GUG - the GIMP User Group, derived from

GIMP - the GNU Image Manipulation Program, derived from

GNU - a recursive acronym for GNU's Not UNIX.

If you thought that was impressive, how about the HURD. HURD stands for "HIRD of Unix Replacing Daemons", and HIRD stands for "HURD of Interfaces Representing Depth". That's TWO MUTUALLY RECURSIVE ACRONYMS!

Yes, NASA are definitely behind the times.

Agreed. I'm happy with Gimp.

First, you have to write Gay software, such as this Gay Software and license it under the GGPL.

Second, you need to succeed in gathering a few "Gay Users" on slashdot.org, a popular "news for trolls" website

Third, you need to contact Richard Stallman, creator of the GGPL, and ask him to sacrifice a straight person for you in the name of All Fags.

If you have mod points and would like to support GGPL, please moderate this post up.

This post brought to you by SARS Monkey, writer of GGPL software.

And now, the GGPL.

This License applies to any program or other work which contains a Gay regime (such as blue plastic dicks, or a frozen potato reference) placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed under the terms of this Gay General Public License. The "Program", below, refers to any such program or work, and a "work based on the Program" means either the Program or any derivative work under Vatican law: that is to say, a work containing the Program or a portion of it, either verbatim or with modifications and/or translated into another language. (Hereinafter, translation is included without limitation in the term "modification".) Each licensee is addressed as "a fag".

Activities other than copying, distribution, modification, or cock sucking are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. (Serve the gay community.)

A fag may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you receive it (up the ass), in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice, Gay pornographic image, and disclaimer of warranty or straightness; keep intact all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty; and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License along with the Program.

A fag may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your opti

That's some rough math considering we're looking at 116,516 in WWI and 405,399 in WWII. And that's total deaths with the European and Pacific theatres combined, the American losses in Europe in WWII number just under 300,000. In contrast, the Soviets lost a total of over 21 million people in WWII. By your logic, we should then first thank Stalin for helping us avoid speaking German and then thank Eisenhower, Kennedy et al for not speaking Russian. Maybe you should thank us Europeans for not speaking Navajo...

How much did that cost, who did we bill?

It's all about the money, isn't it? Never mind the lofty ideals of freedom, democracy and good will towards man, whenever this topic comes up it's always about the money. The US didn't setup the Marshall Plan to be helpful or kind, it did so to influence European policy and build a bulkhead against the Soviet Union, much like they did with the Eastern bloc countries.

Have we ever been paid back?

Yes. The loans have been paid back, as stipulated in the European Recovery Program. The grants ($11.8 billion from 1948 to 1952) have been paid back indirectly many times over, as designed. At the end of WWII, the US had an unsustainable trade imbalance and urgently needed to get dollars out into the world so American companies could convert to civilian production and find markets for their goods abroad. I'd say this plan worked admirably and everyone won out until the Bretton Woods trade triangle collapsed in the 70's. We don't owe you jack shit.

Who is the first to offer assistance when disasters happen throughout the world?

That would be the UN. The US must generally be dragged kicking and screaming into anything that can't easily be used to promote American national interests. Oh, there's a famine in Sudan? Tough luck. In the last 20+ years, the US has intervened globally exactly once without having any ulterior motives and that time you were so uninterested and unable to follow-through that it turned into a bit of a disaster. I'm referring to Somalia, in case you hadn't figured it out.

maybe next time we'll let you all handle the next one by yourselves.

Promises, promises...

Can you be specific? I'm kind of interested in this subject, and this thread has generated a couple of vague complaints about the UI and usability, but few specific complaints.

Which open source products do you use daily? Have you filed any bugs? Please do. For the case of the Gimp, info on filing bugs is here.

Gee.. I wonder why you posted that as an AC

Using linux does not have to mean typing in scripts at a bash shell.
Linux can be made to look and act just as point-and-clicky as windows.

Using K12LTSP enables you to quickly set up a large school network where students have access to office applications, web browsing, photo editing, desktop publishing, web publishing,programming languages , etc.
It also centralizes network administration, allows for recycling hardware, and saves a ton of money on software licensing.
It is important to teach computer concepts, not just the nuances of the latest proprietary office suite.

Just remember, It should never under any circumstances be the responsibility of educators to teach brand loyalty.

I don't know what software Adobe has written regarding this, but the way I figure it, that is irrelevant. The DMCA is not what stops Adobe from providing their users with the kind of access to Nikon raw images that their Nikon-using Photoshop users may want, although I experience a good schadenfreude laugh at Adobe's expense when I read people make the argument that Adobe is somehow disadvantaged by the DMCA here.

Adobe can use some of the money from distributing proprietary software (ill-gotten gain, in my opinion) to negotiate a binary-only proprietary copy of a Nikon library to link to Photoshop which would allow Photoshop users to decrypt the Nikon raw white balance segment that is encrypted.

Nikon and Adobe both walk away getting what they want: Nikon's encryption is no less "secure" than it was before (how this works can be hidden from hidden from everyone, including Adobe), and Adobe gets to supply plug-and-play functionality to their users. Meanwhile, and more importantly, their users are left without their software freedom, and no ability to easily deal with Nikon raw images in other programs. Those users are paying their money in exchange for a loss of their software freedom and complete control over their images. If Adobe complains about not wanting to ship software under its name without full and complete source code to that program so they can inspect, modify, and even share it should the need arise, I'll get another schadenfreude chuckle at Adobe's expense because I want software freedom too. The only difference is I don't want to hoarde it from others.

Both Adobe and Nikon are treating their customers like dirt and it's always a good time to remind Adobe that it was wrong to have Sklyarov arrested, detained, and subject to an "agreement"..

To me, these are all excellent reasons to avoid or stop doing business with both Adobe and Nikon. Run the GIMP, use some other brand of camera that will give you the unencumbered raw functionality you want, and retain full control over your photos. The dcraw website hosts a list of cameras it will work with. Surely some camera on that list will meet one's needs without going to Nikon.

Another example of free software going where proprietary software cannot, or dares not, go.

This GimpShop looks awesome, but it requires GTK+. So how do I go about installing GTK+ on a Windows machine? (people say Windows is simple, but I find many more headaches in Windows than Linux)

In visiting this page I've found a copy of GTK+ which should supposedly work, but how do I install it? It seems this line is the current latest and most appropriate:
glib-2.4.7.zip. Runtime of GLib 2.4.7. Requires libiconv and gettext-runtime.

This GimpShop looks awesome, but it requires GTK+. So how do I go about installing GTK+ on a Windows machine? (people say Windows is simple, but I find many more headaches in Windows than Linux)

In visiting this page I've found a copy of GTK+ which should supposedly work, but how do I install it? It seems this line is the current latest and most appropriate:
glib-2.4.7.zip. Runtime of GLib 2.4.7. Requires libiconv and gettext-runtime.

"Drawing a rectangle is not only not easy to figure out, but is time consuming as hell."

Select rectangle, stroke rectangle, done. It takes one step more than it should, but then again, if you want to draw rectangles, maybe you should use a tool that was intended as a drawing tool?

The GIMP website has a list of such complementary tools.

Er, GIMP website's tutorials at www.gimp.org/tutorials/.

No problem. Menus, keybindings, icons and the like are all themable. I actually don't understand why the author (*sigh*) of this GIMP ripoff claims that he edited hundreds of files. The menu hierarchies are defined in a handful of XML files; all strings are translatable and can be changed by adding a new language ("en_PS" ?!). Unfortunately the "author" doesn't provide a diff of the changes. I am afraid that he did actually change the strings in the code. This will make it very difficult to keep up with upstream changes and it renders all translations invalid (GIMPs UI is translated into more than 40 languages). Anyway, this guy refused to even try to work with the GIMP development team. I asked him to join the GIMP menu reorganization effort but got no response whatsoever.

There is a nice plugin for windows that makes the GIMP act like any normal windows application with a background window and only one entry in the taskbar. It's called Windows Gimp Deweirdifyer.

there IS a gimp port for windows, it works quite well: http://gimp.org/windows/

http://registry.gimp.org/plugin?id=3892

Gimp doesn't have 16 bit support nor some other features which escape me right now.

Don't complain about Photoshop's price. It really is dirt cheap compared to other professional grade applications. If you want something cheaper, use The Gimp. It's available for Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X.

Why when you have the GIMP? http://www.gimp.org/

I feel your pain. I looked everywhere but I don't believe PSP was ever released for Linux. The Gimp is available, however.

Many people hate the new splash screen. No offense to him, but it's my opinion that the selector of the splash has particularly bad taste. There were several better ones.

Many people hate the new splash screen. No offense to him, but it's my opinion that the selector of the splash has particularly bad taste. There were several better ones.

Many people hate the new splash screen. No offense to him, but it's my opinion that the selector of the splash has particularly bad taste. There were several better ones.

With GTK, you are tied to X, [...]

And, for GTK on Linux without X, you can run SDL... as there has been some work on getting the two working together.

With GTK, you are tied to X

Tied to X? Sure doesn't look that way to me...

If you're a professional who uses InDesign, FrameMaker or Photoshop, that's unlikely to happen anytime in the near future. I've posted similar comments to GIMP threads, because the fact remains that Photoshop is so many man-years ahead of the competition and such an excellent program that a viable competitor with anywhere near Photoshop's combination of (relative) speed, ease of use and features seems highly unlikely. Commercial competitors will probably never appear because Photoshop eats the high end, Photoshop Elements now offers a low-mid end and the GIMP, for all its problems, probably gets the rest of the market. The GIMP suffers a variety of ills, including the problem of difficult OS X support and an unfortunate name, but it still gets some love for simple uses. Finally, even if the GIMP managed to threaten Photoshop, I'll bet on 1:50 odds that Adobe comes out with their patent canons firing, and today's patent situation makes them all too likely to triumph in the United States.

FrameMaker, meanwhile, is simply too much a niche and too well entrenched to see any serious competitor take it out, and InDesign probably falls into the same category. Quark, meanwhile, has become a non-entity and continues to survive solely through cruising; it makes Sun look like a vibrant, growing company by comparison.

I'm also disenchanted with Adobe as a company, but logically I can't see anyone else arising to challenge Adobe, because their products are too good, too complex and too much of a niche. Hell, the FOSS community can't even get close to OO.org parity with MSO, and a whole lot more people use office suites than Photoshop, InDesign and Framemaker combined.

Good post overall, though -- I agree with most of your points.

"Oh boy, that means Photoshop for Linux is just around the corner!" -- you'd better think again.

Why? it's been here for a long time

Teaching Linux is like teaching Esperanto: not practical in the real world. Students should be taught skills they can readily use in the real world, and with computers that means Windows. Too bad, its true.

Wow.I can see why you posted that as an AC.

What exactly are these windows specific "real world" skills that we should teach a k-12 student?

Intenet usage?... check
Word processing? Spreadsheets? Presentations?... check check check
Programming?... check
Photo Editing?... check


Is it that Linux looks so different that kids wouldn't be able to find their way around in windows?

I've got a "real world" story for you.
Two years ago I put together one of these k12ltsp labs for a small school of about 300 students ages 5-13. I doubt very many of them had ever heard the word Linux before.
Guess what? They took to it instantly. Even the older kids that were using windows for several years.

The fact is Linux (LTSP especially) is a much more economically viable option for schools.

One more thing. You have the right to your own opinion, but your analogy was weak.
Esperanto provides no immediate benefit. Using Linux saved the school enough budget that they were able to purchase flat panel monitors for the entire lab this year.

You have the classic battle between OpenOffice and Microsoft Office.
After just Linux and OpenOffice installed, it will be evident the advantages are much greater than using Microsoft products, namely because of the price. If these guys are donating thousands of computers to schools, reducing software price from $200-300 per unit to $0 is going to enable them to construct out quite a bit more labs.

There are quite a few Gnome applications which would help in everyday usability. Of course, Gnome or KDE would probably be your desktop of choice, especially if the organization is coming off of Microsoft Explorer; keep it familiar to effectively show advantages.

You didn't specify what type of educational environment the labs target, but for programming Anjuta is a great alternative to Microsoft Visual C++.

A few other mentionable applications would include Mozilla Firefox (over Microsoft Internet Explorer), and The Gimp (over Photoshop).

For networking with existing Windows labs, Samba is an effective alternative.

> Hardly any info, pictures tooled up with
> Photoshop (or whatever).
Most likely the gimp http://www.gimp.org/, if they are a linux company.

> No address or phone number, just a one address
> email.
http://road-gmbh.de/impressum/index.html

Look like they are in early development. But I want one of these for sure

• Use the GIMP for image processing. Cost $0.00
• Go over to the CSS discuss Wiki to get lots of great example CSS, freely reusuable. Cost still $0.00
• Make sure your site looks acceptable with Internet Explorer's awful CSS. Cost: $0.00 if you have a friend with Windows, or go to the local library to look at the site. Otherwise $Bill_gates_tax
• Viola. You have a great looking site.

(Actually, I still use tables for basic layout because IE doesn't support max-width and min-width for CSS elements sizes; this can be somewhat hacked around with <td width=whatever>.)

Here you go!

You haven't used the GIMP (or looked at a screenshot of it) for a very long time, have you?

I love any ring that draws the Mandelbrot Set.

Now if something can do that and let you make cool pictures, I'd be really impres--oh wait...

(Of course if your ring can run that I am quite jealous.)

Then that definition is bogus. WINE simply isn't an emulator, it's a reimplimentation of an API. Somebody else already mentioned it, but I'll ask it again: Would you consider GTK+ for Windows a Linux emulator? I wouldn't. Similarly, Wine Is Not an Emulator.

Yes Gimp uses layers and masks and filters and paths and channels and scripting extensions, animation - it only lacks better colour management.

Now why do I always over-estimate people ??

I seriously thought I was talking with someone with better Graphics/Design experience.

Come on man you need to do your own research.
Next time try and base your arguments on a list of verifiable evidence don't just rant away.

Otherwise people will see you as nothing but a camcorder tourist.

This is more what I'm talking about, except I'd like it to be as ubiquitous as .gif or .jpeg: so that I can right click it, save it to my desktop, drop it into a presentation (with proper citation of course :-)). Right now it just seems too...specialized I guess. It's a whole java applet that takes care of the visualization, not just a data format. I dunno...maybe I'm being too picky. At least there is some kind of option. It just seems like the technology is all there for a simple, straight forward 3-D standard, it's just a matter of getting it all together and a critical mass of people using it so that most 3-D visualization programs would have an option to output to that format, even if it means loss of some information, and programs that can embed graphics would be expected to be able to embed the format. To extend the .png analogy: if you made a pretty picture in the GIMP, you wouldn't normally bother to post the original .xcf file. Even if you didn't mind people taking your work and modifying it, it just wouldn't be a safe assumption that most people viewing your website have the GIMP or even know what it is. And how many will bother to install it just because you included a link to http://www.gimp.org/? Instead you'd convert to .png and post that. Yes you lose some of the original information when you do that and if you go back to .xcf, you won't have the original layering etc, but then it's also a safe assumption that most people just want to see the picture and aren't interested in the original source.

Seriously, though... PSP is in the top four requests? Really?

PSP is also the name of a handheld video game system that's out in Japan and will see a release in North America and Europe within the next few months. I can see why legit game players would be chatting about that on IRC. But if you really want a cheap paint program comparable to PSP or Photoshop Elements, then try this.

In my capacity as a web developer, here are the software packages that I feel you should have a firm understanding of:

1. XHTML - not just 'HTML', XHTML has a few changes that you should get used to (such as closing all tags, even <img src="..."/> and <br/> tags, and all tags being lowercase). For the upcoming specifications, such as XHTML 2.0, which will be very different (you can apply an href="..." property to ANY object, instead of having to wrap it in an <a href=..."> tag), it never hurts to be prepared.
2. CSS3 - May as well read up now, it's going to be relevant in not too long.
3. Photoshop - Use The GIMP if you must, but I find Photoshop generally does what I need it to with less hassle.
4. PHP, ASP, Coldfusion, and J2EE - You don't have to learn how to program in each one, but learn about these solutions, if for no other reason than to make compelling arguments against them if the bosses ever ask you about them (or worse, fail to ask you about them)
5. Apache and IIS - for the same reasons as listed above; also, a lot of things in Apache (mod_rewrite, for example) can help you solve problems down the road. Good things to know.
6. A good editor. I use ViM myself, but what you use is up to you. What you'll want is syntax highlighting, auto-indenting, and a powerful (preferably regex) search/replace. Learn to use your editor and you will save hours of work with seconds of typing.

And now for some soft skills. First, you'll need to learn to give effective presentations. You could use Powerpoint for this, or Keynote or Impress or just print them on transparencies and put them on an overhead projector. How you do it is up to you. Will you ever need to give presentations? Not really, but effective presentations require a lot of soft skills - eye contact, graphic design, pacing, speech tones, body language - that to be skilled in presentations in general means to be skilled in a lot of other areas.

You should also familiarize yourself with colour. Learn about Pantone, just so that you know about it. Learn how colours play off each other, which colors look good on which backgrounds. Learn about bordering, whitespace, balance, and form. Consider the Pantone Guide to Communicating with Color - out of 61 reader reviews, it got 4.5/5 stars, and is a good place to start.

Learn about logos. How companies make logos, and why. What goes into making a logo, subconscious suggestions from logos (there's a reason Playboy picked a bunny for their logo, and it's not obvious). This will help in your graphic design and page layout.

Learn about accessibility and colour-blindness.

I'm probably missing a ton of important stuff, but if you do it right and are willing to learn (and posting on slashdot seems to imply that), you'll probably learn what you need to know as you go. If not, just come back and post another Ask Slashdot.

Here's my list of spyware/adware free apps, in no particular order:

Crap Cleaner - Cleans temp files, cookies, etc
P2P + Codec Packs - Kazaa Lite Resurrection, K-Lite Codec Packs, QuickTime Alternative, Real Alternative
Gmail Notifier - System tray icon that checks your google mail
Winamp - Media Player
Open Office - Office Suite
AbiWord - Word Processing
GIMP - Image Editor
Paint.Net - Image Editor
AVG Antivirus - Decent free antivirus
Everest Home - System diagnostics and benchmarking solution
Daemon Tools - CD/DVD emulator
Zone Alarm - The free version is a decent firewall
CWShredder - Removes CoolWeb adware

• Firefox
• Thunderbird
• Outpost Firewall
• Cygwin
• The GIMP
• Spybot
• adAware
• Trillian
• Google Desktop Search
• SETI@home
• iTunes

For X there is Xnest.
And for windows there is Windows Gimp Deweirdifyer

- GTK runs on Linux. There is a porting of the old GTK1.2 for Windows. A Porting for Mac OS X is under development (AFAIK)

There is also a windows port of GTK 2.x. For example developer packages are available here, an installer for Glade is avaiable from here and an installer for the Python bindings for GTK for Windows is available here.

Damn, i hate managing links in HTML. Correction:
Browser: http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/
Graphics: http://www.gimp.org/~tml/gimp/win32/