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Red Hat Linux Available Free To UK Schools
Sara Chan writes "Red Hat is making its distribution of Linux available free to schools in the United Kingdom. This might mean that a whole generation grows up in the UK with very positive feelings about Linux: the long-term value could be really large. Red Hat will still charge for support (likely at a discount)--but this will probably just encourage schools to grow their own Linux gurus.
"
lets get it going in the US.
I could've sworn that it was free to anyone. Go figure.
Seriously, what value is a shiney box and a manual going to have for a school? They should be downloading everything for free anyway.
Does narcissism count as a hobby? --Shawn Latimer
I wish I had something like this when I was in school. I might have stuck with computer science classes...
And the best part is, there are no hidden traps, a la Microsoft. Red Hat may want to change or yank their support entirely in ten years or so, but the product is still viable. Schools could hook up with anyone who met their price (and as the article said, they could hire or grow their own Linux guru.)
Jay (=
but this will probably just encourage schools to grow their own Linux gurus.
:)
Only to be "reprogrammed" by a Microsoft owned college
Seriously, this is great news. I wonder how many years it will be before this happens in the US. Then when we have a school shooting, we can tune into the news to find that Linux caused the rampage. ("The shooter became enraged when the popular site, slashdot, didn't conform to their idea of what it should be. Netscape crashing in X just fueled the fire")
Finkployd
Bill Gates: "Innovation"
While I certainly welcome Red Hat's commitment to the British educational sector, I have to say that this is nothing special. SuSE has been donating SuSE Linux distributions to German schools for quite a while now. This is supported by the to publishing companies Heise and Markt & Technik. You can find out more about this initiative by going to http://www.linux.de/schulen/ (you might have to try to use babelfish...). In my town the local schools all run SuSE (http://www.Goe.NI.Schule.DE/)...
Red Hat Linux is already free. I can go to metalab.unc.edu and download the ISO image, burn as many copies I want, and hand them out on the streets without fear of legal repercussions.
I wish I had been exposed to linux as I came up through the education system here in the US. My early work was on the apples programming LOGO and then I "moved up" to DOS and BASICA. Even then I didn't like Micro$oft but I didn't have any other options (or so I thought.) Thank goodness those days are behind me. I hope others won't have to go through that. :)
I read (ok, scanned) the article, and I couldn't really see what RedHat was giving the schools that isn't already available for free. From the sounds of it, they're just supplying the schools with the operating system, but not giving them anything that they usually charge for (namely support). There was mention of documentation, but is it printed documentation?
More than anything it sounds like a case of RedHat getting some free publicity by sounding like they're doing something generous when in reality they're doing something that they normally do anyway.
This is going to be great for the students because they will be getting a greater broad knowledge of computers. However, this will only go as far as education which the teachers have; It would be nice if Redhat provided free training and then support at a discounted rate.
:)
If they get the training do you think they will find out the software is freely downloadable in ISO format?
Justen Stepka
They should be downloading everything for free anyway.
What, on their T1s, right? The school my wife taught at didn't even have modem access as far as I know... Yes, getting free CD distribution and a manuala WOULD be a very big deal to a lot of these schools.
----
How is this different from the "free" for the rest of the world?
yadda
Last time I heard, Red Hat Linux was available free to *anyone*. Does this mean they're going to start charging everyone money *except* UK schools?
Personally I'm running 6.1 at the moment and was disconcerted at the quality of the manuals in the Standard Edition. I'm sure that there will be plenty of teachers that know how to set up Linux, but it's safe to say that there will be a lot more that are slightly frustrated.
I wasn't all that happy with RedHat's email support when I used 5.2 either. It took a while to get answers - menawhile my problems were solved by local gurus. So, if there are plenty of UK LUGs that are going to be on hand it might work out. Sure, there are lots of people that will do it out of the goodness of their hearts - but when it's tied to a specific distro like RH and they're effectively doing free support they might be less enthusiastic. And that's what we're dealing with mostly - enthusiasts, people who do it for the sheer joy of it.
Does anyone feel that other distro's might be more appropriate to a "mass" installation of this kind? Still, kudos to RH for taking the step, just because it makes sense from a future marketing perspective doesn't mean that it's bad.
This is about the best thing for OSS right now. (Although I'm surprised that we haven't seen this before, given school budgets, etc.) When other school boards see that this is a **cheap**, but effective solution, we will see more and more come on board. This means that more young people will be using it, and becoming familiar with it! Little Johnny will go home and ask his parents why they don't have it, etc. Education is an excellent sector for Linux to be embraced by! This can only mean BIG things.
==
Say what you mean, mean what you say! But please know what #$@% you are talking about!
Microsoft will continue to charge UK schools money for their operating systems!
The sun will come up tomorrow!
Last I checked RedHat was free and they charged for support. So where is the news? Maybe it's just some marketing or something. But the noise level on /. is rising.
___
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Somebody figured that Apple's strategy of introducing children to their systems at an early age actually works. That is some of the best marketing I have ever seen. Sure, it's a big investment at first, but in 10 years, when the kids are all grown up, they're going to want a computer with linux on it. Good job Redhat!
=======
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
The onlything that I'm suprised about is how well Red Hat does in the UK. A few months a go I was doing some training in the UK. I asked some of the people in the class what the distro they were using. Everyone in the class that used Linux said Red Hat.
I guess I was expecting something like SuSE to be a dominate player based solely on location.
Although I can understand why Business like Red Hat. Ask SuSE for install support and you get a message back with a lot of German and little English at the end. That's just the auto responder. It's another three weeks for a Tech to reply to mail.
Ok, I like it. But didn't we all complain like hell when Microsoft did the same thing in the US? :-)
Well, why is everyone saying "Hey, they ain't that great, they give it away free anyways..."? Well, this just makes them better, and the publicity stunt will probably save thousands of tax dollers,. teach necessary networking skills, and basically a lot of other good things.
I've never heard of the "Red Had" distro!
/. but they rejected it. Why?!?!?
BRW: Check out http://linuxdocumentary.uoregon.edu for interviews with all the top Linux guys, even Rob Malda.
I submitted this to
Not quite anyone, but really the UK government should do this! RedHat always was about "support" really, at least that was the impression I had when I started using it.
Turned out that I was quite turned off by their support. I'm thinking of switching to Debian from what I hear and see.
Yes, they can just download it for free but, they don't get as much documentation and, if you don't have a system (of any kind) running the online docs are as useless as nipples on men.
They can put the manuals in the school library for everybody to use as needed.
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."
My office has been taken over by iPod people.
And I hate to be a cynical nay-sayer, and while I recognize this as being good, why post it here? For me, the articles on /. are secondary to the intelligent discussions that come about as a result of their being posted here.
Having said that, what kind of engaging conversation other than everyone agreeing that "this is a good thing," is this article going to generate?
Ignore Alien Orders
This is great PR for Red Hat but what are they really doing? They are giving away something that is free and coming out looking like good guys ...
I will continue to use SuSE at our Uni and if I get involved with anything at any of the local schools I would "give" them SuSE.
Publically I will not criticise this move as it promotes something I support, A little hypocracy goes a long way 8-)
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Some of our DC2600 members are starting up a free computer for underpriveleged organization. Looks like they are going with redhat too, but not sure.
The manual for Redhat can really come in handy to those new to this stuff.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Where I was at school (here in the UK), we were running a Novell Netware server with about 150 Windows 95 computers.
When we got internet access (end of last year), we (some friends and I) were pushing to get Linux installed (probably have gone with SuSE as it worked right out of the box on our test system), even telling our school deputy head (who controlled the finances) the favorite words of any financially-challenged institution: "It's FREE!".
Still, he refused and forked out the money for Windows NT, saying it's better supported (or words very much to that effect). And we did show him a working Linux internet proxy, so did have some facts.
So, how many schools will honestly scrap Windows for Linux, rather than remaining on the Microsoft boat "because it's better supported"?
That having been said, I was one of the very few people at school who knew enough about Linux to be able to maintain a working system. Isn't computing fun when you know more than your teachers?
Common sense is a set of prejudices built up over a lifetime
Just this week, the Register posted this story about software piracy in UK schools. I would have assumed that this new school's switch to Red Hat was prompted by the flap over piracy, but the article seems to imply that this has been an ongoing project. At least, I'm assuming that the school has been installing Linux on the computers as they're being installed, as opposed to a last-minute emergency switchover. Still, if UK schools are cracking down on piracy, this is a golden opportunity for Linux to step in and replace traditionally-licensed software.
Weblogging Considered Harmful:
Uuhh... isn't RedHat already supposed to be free?
http://www.logient.com
Is it only me or does this story sound
rather um.... Big PR little content.
I mean Linux has been free for _all_ since
it came out. Every school all over the world
can, (if they have the ability) download it
and use it.
If they dont, they can buy a cd from CheapBytes
and use that one. (Instead of getting ripped off
by RedHat paying $80 for _free_ software)
So like DUH.
It sounds more like a scam than a great deal.
it should have read:
"Red Hat today offered free software FREE to schools".
LINUX IS FREE!! ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE. If RH wants to give them something, they should give them a support engineer onsite for a month. Train some people and then leave. They would be doing a much greater service. Im willing to donate my time to any school that needs help installing Linux. If anyone knows any schools within Boston or surrounding areas that need this help let me know. Sean Sean
I hate to be a wet blanket, but this never works. The theory always sounds good, "Hey! get them while they're young!", but the strategy has always been a failure. Look at Apple: They gave tons of subsidies to the schools, but how much did this affect their market share?
The problem is that kids have roughly the same priorities as adults: They don't care about the operating system, they want cool software. And all the cool software is for Windows.
Sure, their are a couple of games that have been ported to Linux, but everything else is Windows. I mean, Windows is light-years ahead on basic things such as creating documents with colors that will work on your basic cheap-o Epson color printer (and look right).
When we start seeing applications comparable to the ones in Windows we will start seeing Linux make inroads in both the "real world" and the schools.
---
As far as I can tell Red Hat Linux has been "freely available" for as long as it's been in existence. That's what the FTP site is all about.
I did elicit a rather uncomfortable response a few years ago, though, when I asked a Red Hat rep at a demo they were doing if it was legal to duplicate Red Hat 5.0 CD-ROMs out of a box set.
dammitdammitdammitishouldahitpreviewdammit
Weblogging Considered Harmful:
It's free, sure, but ever try to download a 500 megabyte file over a 1.44 modem, whilst paying through the nose for the phone call in the process? In short, Red Hat are saying "put those phones away, you twits - we'll take care of things."
(Note to Americans and other aliens: British schools are under-funded. BADLY under-funded. A typical school has a leaking roof, a single reel-to-reel for language teaching in a class of 30 to 40, textbooks that haven't been replaced since the 60's, and food that tastes like it was originally prepared in the 60's.)
Many primary schools in England have maybe one computer between 30 kids. Secondary schools might have one computer between 5 or 6. These are NOT rich establishments, and ANY assistance is usually received with open arms and few questions.
The phone costs saved are enormous. At 10p per unit, peak time, (which is when schools operate), you're talking around 4,740 GBP for the download, which is about $7,870. In short, Red Hat is donating the equivalent of nearly $8,000 to every school in England. In my books, that's a substantial sum of money.
Schools in England tend to have enormous influence over the rest of England, too. When the BBC and Acorn got together to make an educational computer, the BBC micro, they basically re-invented the entire British computer market. They also inadvertantly brought computer cracking to the public's attention, when their PRESTEL account was cracked, and messages were pushed onto the screen of their computer, live on national TV.
I'm sure Red Hat are familiar with the peculiar dynamics of the British market (such as a willingness to take a risk, and absolutely zero loyalty to labels), and are also familiar with the fact that Britain is a potentially very powerful market to tap, having it's grubby paws in both America and the European Union.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
ftp.redhat.com Duh.
spoo
Uh... isn't RH Linux already free? How is this any different from the school system adopting Linux of its own accord?
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
It will be interesting to see if Microsoft further lowers or gives away software to lots of schools now in reply to Red Hat's action. (Please spare us your testimonial about how Msoft gave freesoftware to your specific educational instituion. I'm talking on a huge scale here.)
Can anyone else see Msoft wanting to fight back and start dumping software on schools for $0 for marketing/"goodwill" purposes?
Kid: "daddy, daddy, what's emacs?"
Father: *cough* "Go to your room son, this is a vi household."
Kid: "But.."
Father: "No ifs, ands, or butts. Any more out of you and I'll yank the cat5 out of the switch!"
but this will probably just encourage schools to grow their own Linux gurus.
Knowing the way things work, the kids will know infinitely more about the system and its setup than the teachers anyway, no matter what it's running - so are they sending the teachers on a "what the heck is Linux" course?!
The only thing they are selling is the physical media and a support contract (and a pretty box). They have absolutely no legal hold over the data on that CD.
Yes, of course they're going for the kids -- and in state-run schools, too, the traditional centers of liberal/socialist indoctrination. No doubt the US will be next, since US socialists like the Klintons always obediently take their lead from the socialists of Europe. Don't forget that all of Europe is in the grip of the socialists, and England is one of the most socialist nations of the whole sick crew.
This is the future: Open, unashamed collaboration between jackbooted government socialists and grass-roots software socialists. No good can come of it, obviously. They're training the kids to expect something for nothing (though of course this may backfire: The pathetically inadequate quality of so-called "free" software may instead illustrate to the kids the absolutele impossibility of getting something for nothing, in which case honest vendors like Microsoft will ultimately win). No doubt a heaping helping of homosexual internet porn will be rammed down the children's throats into the bargain. This cannot be helped, but when all of England's children have been brainwashed into homosexuality and abortionism, their birth rate will plummet and ultimately leave their island open for settlement by the decent Christian people to whom it was granted by God in the first place. We shall see.
In the meantime, don't let this happen here. Fight it will all your strength. My children, naturally, are never allowed anywhere near the government sex-and-evolution-religion indoctrination centers laughably called "schools". We teach them at home, where they get proper, well-established science and edifying literature to read. They will be well prepared to inherit this nation when the liberals have degraded themselves into utter hopelessness.
I bet you've been waiting a long time for that banner to run in your local paper.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
I mention this so Linux can learn from their mistakes, instead of repeating them...
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
it's free anyway. any school in the world with net access can download it and use it for free anyway. this is just some marketing ploy.
Yes, but can you imagine this glorious sight: a room six year olds that shout at the top of their lungs "Bloody hell with the Bill, give us the damned Penguin!".
The Midnight Watch - All the news that's fit to ridicule:
Also, commenting on some previous posts here...The comparsion between that RedHat and Apple attempted with regards to education is slightly flawed. Apple nearly gave machines away in an attempt to get kids to know Macs (and previously Apple IIs) better, so that when they bought their own system, it would be Apple...
Well, the problem is...RedHat sells support. By giving schools discounted support, these kids will (hopefully) learn Linux... Once they do, they don't need RedHat anymore, as RedHat is basically just a support organization! Well, currently...I'm sure we'll continue to see this change in the near future.
Am I completely nuts, or is RedHat's distro already free? I hop on over to their ftp site and see it. They must mean they're giving the Brits CDs free of charge - which is pretty darned cool. (I paid 30$ for mine.)
I work in a High School here in Ottawa which is 99% mac based. We have been lobbying for both the adoption of PCs and Macs for several years now. The excuses we have recieved from the board IT department are mostly unfounded through to plainly silly.
One of the main reasons I am pushing for the adoption of Linx (even PPCLinux) at the school is simply the fact that we are in Ottawa, the silicon valley of the north. Nortel hires many of our top students. However, having suffered through what passes for a modern computer education in school, I know Nortel isn't hiring the kids because of what they learned in school. After five years of computers, I can safely say that every single minute was a complete waste of my time.
Placing Linux in schools makes sense. It is free, which is a big thing for Ontario School Boards nowadays. Besides, education is a democratic freedom, it only makes sense to use Linux. And ideally, the IT department and teachers should know how to use it (realisitcally, they don't, but that is poor hiring practices mixed with sub-standard pay). But most of all there is the shere amount of computer knowledge one aquires using Linux. And, from experience, there is no reason why a motivated 13 yearold cannot pick up something as Linux.
Why patronize them with typing classes when they are going home and script-kidding boxes? Put the information generation to use I say, teach them what they need to know...
The whole flame Redhat thing has got to stop. I dont run Redhat, but everyone seems to be sceptical/paranoid everytime Redhat makes an anouncement. They are offering the distro for free (duh.) but they are doing much more than that. they are giving kids the chance to fall in love with linux rather than spend all their time dissing windows. Redhat is offering a sollution for the school systems, by helping cut their expenditures on software down. this is great! more books! more classrooms! more teachers! more specialty classes! and just maybe programming cources that start in middleschool.
I graduated in 1998
I never had this opertunity. My high school's only programming course was in MS Basic. we didn't even have Window's yet when I graduated! Our fileserver was a single processor pentium 133.
This isn't a sob story... I had linux on my 386 at home. The point of this little rant is that I was in a school with 1700 students... with a massively underbudgeted tech dept. Had they no bought 200 computers with windows 3.1, at $75 a copy. we would have had $15,000 dollars to put into... say... a teacher for c++... more powerfull computers... internet access... what ever!
This is important, and we cant overlook it because It was redhat and not VAlinux.
kids are the future.
PimpSmurf
Stupid people do stupid things... Smart people outsmart each other... --System of a Down
...please please please *TURN OFF* all of the
extra networking daemons as part of the install.
It's getting quite common, especially on campus
nets, for Unix/Linux newbies to get rooted before
they have a chance to learn *anything* about
how *nix works. You'd be doing everyone,
including yourselves, a favor by disabling things
like portmap, ftpd, bind, etc. Give people like
me time to help them find LASG so that they
don't get cracked and just give up on Linux
because "It's too hard to keep people out." Giving
a Linux CD to a non-Unix person, like most of the
admins. at high schools, is like handing a gun to
a non-shooter. At least turn on the safety first.
Linux on "about a third of the worlds webservers?" While I would love for this to be the case, it sounds dubious...
Also, I still don't understand what the schools are getting for "free" that wasn't already free. They'll still have to pay for the support, so even though it may be at a reduced rate, that doesn't mean it's free. The OS was already free, so what does this leave? The box? The manual? Perhaps the RH manual is super-stellar, I wouldn't know because I've never read it. I personally like to stick to the HOWTOs and my local users group...
It is, however, VERY cool that an entire school is being set up with Linux from the start. I think that we'll continue to see more and more of this, probably in conjuction with "recycled" PCs in some of the school districts where computer labs would otherwise be out of reach. Or:
http://agape.qis.net
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Just like muscles, the brain has to be worked to stay strong.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I think you answered your own question. Since you were one of the "very few" people who could maintain a working system, the administration will probably not accept Linux until it can count on a level of support that keeps their systems running. If Redhat offers sufficient support, this could be a great way for Linux to gain a foothold in colleges.
Basically, RedHat's European division is there to try to grow the presence of RedHat over SUSE, the distribution that's number one in Europe.
They're doing this the same way that Gates was in his "PC's for the Libaries and Schools" campaign. Get the kids hooked on certain software, and they stay hooked as the get older (or force their parents/teachers to support that software, which also involves more purchases).
RedHat's target isn't Microsoft there, its SUSE.
Now mind you, because the software is "free" anyways, it doesn't look like the dumping that it would be if MS was giving free WindowsNT to kids...
I don't see anything wrong with it at all...
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
Uh, Red Hat is free to everyone, no? Maybe they get the manual for free -- certainly is not worth the price they charge in the retail channel...
My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!
Yes, I do think that Linux is better than MSWindows. Especially for people who are supposed to be LEARNING. Unfortunately, I can't attribute this quote to myself:
It's ironic that people who are better off can afford to give their kids computers that can teach them to be $6/hr typists, but that the "less fortunate" are forced to use Linux on recycled hardware, and forced to give their kids systems that can teach them system administration, networking, programming, etc...
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Uhmm ... Redhat is always free, that's the whole point right?
Maybe the story should say "Redhat Linux MEDIA and MANUALS available Free to UK Schools" since Redhat itself as a distribution is available free to anyone who wants it.
Microsoft has been giving away "free" Windows software Licenses to Penn State College students--Win98, WinNT, FrontPage, Office, Visual Studio Pro, etc... For instance, this offer, where a PSU student can get the license for free, and a CD for $1-2.
There are a few catches, of course. I've been told that installation requires an online registration and that they can only be re-installed a certain number of times, or maybe there is an expiration date past which it will not install (Not clear on this, haven't been to PSU in a while).
Of course, that's not the real catch. The real catch is that it's a Microsoft product, of course.
"Easy is what you're used to."
Great excitement was heard around the world as the great philanthropist known as TheDullBlade provided schools across North America with free access to RedHat Linux.
The ceremony was simple, with TheDullBlade meeting an eager member of the local high school's computer club. "Here you go," he said, handing the kid a CD-ROM he bought from CheapBytes and a printout of the manual on the disc, "install it on your school's systems and pass it on to the next school." Then he opened the floor for questions from the gathered press.
When asked why he would make such an amazing act of charity he replied, "Hey, I'm not in this for the money. I was done with the disc; actually, since I got a cable modem I don't order the CDs any more, so I thought it would be nice to hand it to someone who could use it. Of course, I'm pretty good with Linux, if one of those schools wants to hire me to get their systems working, they can do it at my standard consulting rate of $50/hour."
TheDullBlade, truly an inspiration to us all. Give him a hand, folks!
Actually, the Redhat CD contains commercial software and demos that are not GPL'ed. One example of this is WordPerfect--just because some part of the CD is GPL'ed doesn't mean the whole CD is.
And yes, this means that you cannot copy the CD and use it on more than one computer. It would be like saying that Win95 is free because the startup sounds are free.
Is Windows 3.1 free? Is Windows95? They could make those available for free now, but they won't because they are still selling licenses. It will take a VERY long time after Win2k is released for even most businesses to convert. Heck, there are still lots of machines running 2.0.x kernels...
And, even if they did release it for free, who would fix it when the next bug was discovered? MS? HA! Since it'd be closed-source, the first DoS attack or buffer overflow could render it utterly useless as an OS.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
The fact that RH is doing this at all is cool. However, why did they choose the UK to do this? Why not in [insert your country of origin]?
What is the dominant distro in the UK? Seems to me I read that it was Suse or Caldera. If that is the case, I presume that RH is attempting to wrestle away dominance from the main distro in the UK.
I'm not complaining about, RH BTW; they are running a business, and this seems like Fair Play to me. I'm just wondering why the UK and not elsewhere.
Or does RH have plans in the works for other such freebie rollouts for schools in other countries?
For as far as I can see, most sysadmins at schools are underpayed sysadmins who are only familiar with mouse: to install NT. No I'm not kidding, I can still remember my last school where they completely lowformatted a Linux proxy (installed by a student) and installed WinProxy just because the networkcard had broken down, and they didn't knew how to install the drivers for a new one under Linux. I've tried (at this school) at the sysadmins to install Linux on one or two machines, so some geeks out here can work more efficiently. The answer was no. Their reasons where obvious: because they don't know how to secure any unix alike system they don't want it. Right now they are trying to protect their systems with a mixture of WinDose and Novell, so far no luck I'm afraid, DOS is wide open, and so is telnet/ftp/http/ssh/whatever.
My thought? As long as there are underpaid sysadmins with only a MCSE certificate, there won't be any Linux.
This is a replacement signature.
That's true. I'd have really liked to say to the admin "We'll install it and configure it - you won't even have to touch it ever again". But, as we all know, boxes require administration. Still, a good setup may not need touching for a year or more (handle simple admin stuff, like creating and deleting users remotely).
Also, a good friend of mine who is a computer consultant (extremely competent, I might add), offered the school to help with a Linux box without charging them. That wasn't good enough for the school - the MS service was "better value".
Still, how long is RedHat going to offer their support for? 6 months from purchase, 1 year, as long as they exist? If it's any less than 1 year, it won't necessarily help, unless a moron installed the box and it keeps failing every few days.
Common sense is a set of prejudices built up over a lifetime
Nice move!
Yes the schools can download and burn the distribution now. But that isn't as 'free' as giving away the whole box set- with printed manuals and a CD that can go home and get installed there too. I hope the offer of paid support for these kits can be extended to Standard Edition users who can't install it and thinks 'root' is the underside of a tree.
WireHead
WireHead
The previous message was created with 100% recycled words.
Because educational institutions are run by clueless bean-counting suits, NOT techies.
Sure schools already can D/L the code for free, BUT the policies are dictated by those clueless suits. If the suit gets it in his/her head that it's dangerous (virii, trojans, etc...) to download something from the internet, they policy will prohibit it.
If the suit decides that because M$ is giving the school a good deal, then M$ it will be. RedHat is going the route of oneupsmanship. (Or onedownsmanship if you will)
School employees are greedy SOBs, I've had teachers ask me if there's an "educator's" discount on a $5 pack of floppy disks before. Free is better than cheap. Because the distro comes in a shiny retain box, and it's free it kills two birds with one stone.
1. Fears about the "dangerous" content on the internet are avoided.
AND
2. It's free, educational people LOVE when something's free.
Smart move RedHat, bravo. Too bad SuSe beat you to it.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
All the schools in the University of Maryland system are working out a similar deal. Don't believe for a SECOND that this isn't reflected in the tuition bills, because it is. Now, in addition to paying for a weight room I don't use, I have to pay for software that I hate, so that Bob Loser can get it ultra-cheap. At least our servers are still IRIX/Linux...
IMO, this is just encouraging students to use bad software. The CS teachers all tell students to do their programming on the IRIX servers, and recommend not using VC++, but what do you think will happen if students can get VC++ for $10? All set for a bright future writing printer drivers...
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
The best qoute from that article has to be "Other schools have discovered open source Linux as an alternative operating system, usually because they happen to have clued-in technical co-ordinators."
Computing in UK schools has been a shambles for a very long time.
A little bit of history:
Most schools had a BBC computer (thats right one BBC) until about 1990. This was an 8 bit machine, with some good features when it launched, but it was expensive. Nobody used it but schools. In 1990, it was literally a joke. "I may as well be using a BBC!" It was manufactured by Acorn and branded BBC as a marketing ploy. Nobody ever got fired for buying a BBC!
Then something new came along. Archimedes. This was also created by Acorn, and while it had a nice OS, it was underpowered compared to PCs, and expensive due to low volume. This was marketed as the successor to the BBC, as it was made by Acorn and there was a BBC emulator.
The schools then all gave up, and started buying Windows machines. Around the end of the Win 3.1 era. Computer classes, which used to teach BASIC programming, were degraded into lessons on MS Word.
The problem has been the low level of cluefulness possessed by the people in the schools in charge of IT. These are usually people who have been pressed into doing it because they have a computer at home, or they are a maths teacher, or some other specious reason. I know this because I used to work on the faults desk of an educational ISP. You can imagine the kind of questions we used to get.
It maybe that this give away will help. But I doubt it very much. The schools need funding so they can employ dedicated people. Unfortunately, any people they do employ are likely to be Microsoft Certified Button Pushers, and will run a mile when they are asked to install Red Hat. And almost every state school I know of have far more urgent funding needs. Like teachers salaries.
Good point. I didn't know they were bundling WordPerfect etc.
Still, most of the CD is GPL'ed. So long as you don't install the non-GPL'ed bits you can install Red Hat Linux on as many systems as you want from one copy.
This makes me wonder if they have to pay a royalty to Corel for every copy they give away to these schools.
I have to say that I have very few positive feelings from school. I'm sure that it depends very strongly on the teacher, I enjoyed physics maths and chemistry from school, but detested computer studies, despite excelling at it.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
I've been using Linux since the SLS distribution in the pre-1.0 kernel days. I'm not a kernel hacker, but I've recompiled it myself to add non-default drivers on a couple of occasions and I have configured LILO by hand once or twice
And I like having a printed install manual and a CD ROM. There are a small number of documents that are useful in printed form. Installation documents, and the ones I need to recover when I screw up the boot process: LILO docs, Bootprompt HOWTO, that sort of stuff. The reason is blindingly obvious: I don't have a running system at the time I'm referring to them.
As for the CD ROM, I've done the floppy swap install too many times. I timed it once. Flat out, a full install on my trusty old generic 166 MHz Pentium took about 6 hours off of floppies and about half an hour off a CD ROM. And I didn't have to sit in front of the machine to install from the CD ROM. Getting that kind of speed doesn't require any hardware that isn't pretty common these days even in schools with a tight budget. No missing or damaged floppies either.
If Red Hat is supplying a boxed set to each school, I applaud them. Even if the schools don't install it, if they are willing to loan it out to the students through the library, then the students can try it out. Hmmm, maybe I'll donate a copy to the local library.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Hmm, the (two) IT teachers at my school can barely run a windows network, never mind a linux one.
Not only will schools save a bundle now without having to buy a copy of win95 for EACH indivitual computer! People can/will become familiar with linux!
woot!
Annoyed that telnetd and others are enabled by default? Why continue to use RH when there are other distros where this is not the case?
With Debian, telnetd, wu-ftpd, etc. are not installed by default. You have to intentionally put them there. Plus, Debian makes an idea distro for those who are on high-speed networks, because it's designed to be easily installed and updated on-line. Try it--install only the base system (doable even from floppies), then ignore dselect (it blows). Edit the apt sources list to point to the FTP sites (instead of HTTP), and use "potato" instead of "stable". Then:
apt-get update
apt-get dist-upgrade
apt-get install console-apt
Type "capt", and install away. You'll always get the latest packages, and every few days you can do:
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
To make sure you've got the latest of everything. Download the latest kernel source and compile, and you're set! I love ethernet!
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Does anybody know what the educational policy from other distributions in Europe is? For instance, I believe SuSe (located in Germany) is pretty strong. I wonder whether this is a strategic move to get market share from other distributions... any thoughts?
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Are we expected to congratulate Red Hat for obeying their GPL obligations? I don't get it.
-b
Ok I will come clean, I teach (part time) at a local technical college. I Teach VB and I teach it well ( it think ).
Whilst I agree that RH availabiity is a good thing I can point out that the concept of considering such a bold technical move for most Schools and educational establishments would be un thought of. They lack the Skills, resources or the time to consider refocusing their attempts to move to another platform.
I envangelise and 'talk up' Linux and Open source solutions. I am trying to convince the College that teaching a course about Javascript, HTML, PHP, Apache, MYSQL, ZEND, would be more beneficial. But the Descision makers on the Boards of these schools look for serious comfort and safety zones and MS gives it to them.
If RH wants to Give Linux to schools thats Swell but if should give the man power time and training as well.
As for me Im trying to convince my 15 year old Sister in Law who has a apptitude for Computers that Using Linux would be way more Cool than Windows. But Peer pressure and Technical Awareness in the UK are two different time zones.
And thats why Firecrackers and kittens don't mix.
No it wouldn't you idiot. Red hat can impose no restrictions on there software, as most of the stuff has been developed by people other then them and put under the GPL.
Sure, they could restrict the stuff that they did do, but they havn't everything comming out of redhat is GPL
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Sure they are doing ok right now, but I would attribute 5% of that to kindergardeners or junior high kids using macs at school.
Then again, instead of teaching kids how to use the easiest thing and getting them hooked on the ease of computing, maybe Linux in grade school, junior high, and high schools could provide the tech base for people to realize that slicker isn't always better.
The degree to which this is not silly is the degree to which it is evil (okay, that's a harsh word for "profit-oriented", but we use it freely enough that way when we talk about MS).
Red Hat does include non-free software with its distributions (on a seperate disc I believe), including demos of commercial software and full versions of commercial software which are seeking to establish themselves as some sort of standard (REBOL, for example).
This is exactly the same as what MS or Apple does when they give away free copies of their software to educational institutions. They are trying to hook people on their proprietary stuff while they're young (give away a few copies at practically no cost to the class of 20 today, sell 20 copies a few years from now).
Furthermore, they seem to be looking to set up support contracts with the schools. This could end up being simply a back door into their traditional profit model.
Don't be too quick to dismiss this either as an innocent act of charity or a meaningless gesture. They might be setting themselves up as the next Microsoft.
If you're interested in Linux in education, take a look at SEUL/edu. We've been working on the problem of getting Linux ised in schools below university level for over a year. We've got a number of apps under development or ready to be deployed, and We have a team working on documentation for teachers on how to install, configure, and maintain Linux systems. We do a weekly report on Linux in education for Linux Weekly News and LinuxToday (although Slashdot hasn't ever mentioned it). And we have a database of existing educational programs for Linux and a list of links to other Linux educational sits around the world. Check us out!
// deep thanks
:) ). (Windows? What Windows?)
... compared to DOStel.
... and became professional DOS-tel programmer.
:) in a school of all computer illiterates of course :) ) in a small pond like this.
... they let me anyway, since they couldn't find and buy any educational (or otherwise :) ) Apple software at all ... they were at my mercy ... HA HA HA!
I was one of the early Apple 2 beneficiary to elementary and junior high schools.
If it was not for Apple founders' foresight and generosity, I would not have had access (however great my desire) to coding and programming computers as early as I had wanted.
This one random act of kindness changed my (and probably many others') life and where it went from then on.
// Apple loyalty
It did work and it didn't.
In my case, I stood staunchly steadfast against DOS-tel (yup, that long ago
There were 2 circumstances that forced my hand very reluctantly away from my beloved Apples.
a. Macintosh betrayal
To me the creation of Mac-line (Lisa) itself, and then Apple's favoritism to Mac and abandonment of my beloved Apple 2-line (Apple 2 gs is ADORABLE!) hits me like a dagger to a naive child's heart.
How could they abandon the simplicity of command line, the "hackability" of a machine you keep fiddling the internals with into this icky GOOEY dummy-proof box that discourage you from playing with it?
Apple 2's have a LOT of room to grow. Dummy-proof-ing and pretty-fy-ing it was not what I was thinking.
Apple 2 gs was a good and right direction. (ah I can program sound cards, I have more graphics programming options, yeah, etc.)
Then the double betrayal of giving up on us loyal Apple-2-ers to support the new-fangled Mac-line, that was too much.
b. $ and survival
After a while, there is absolutely no (not even minimal wage) income to be made in Apple 2
So I sourly crammed in DOS knowledge and Intel processor knoweldge (was surprised how similar things are)
Was "conformed" even before the Windows OS.
c. could they have won?
I don't know about the entire population, but I knew I would had stuck with the Apple 2 line if Apple itself would had stuck with it and not made the dreadful Macintosh thing.
Even if it meant poverty and unemployment (in coding field, I will just do it on the side).
But then I guess my life would had turned out very differently then.
// digression
BTW, teachers were no help. It was a funny situation. One day a bunch Apple 2 showed up. No one knew what to do with them. I just turned them on, fiddled around.
Still no teachers knew what to do, but I started to teach myself everything, how to code it, connecting them together. (HW-wise the Apple 2's were very hackable.)
The teachers started to ask me questions on them, and started to ask me to make use for them.
I started to code grade book programs, automatic letter to parent generation programs.
My elemenatry-junior high school started to pay me minimum wage (my first PROFESSIONAL programming job!) to do computer coding work.
I wrote up curriculum, wrote (supposedly) educational games, taught students and teachers, while having access to a whole bunch of Apples at one time.
Some teachers started to think I knew about this computer thing from another country, but I only started learning while in America at the school!
I learned a new language English at the same time I learned Apple BASIC, and then Apple assembly. So yes, I have been speaking assembly for as long as I have spoken English.
It was empowering to have the confidence to be the smartest computer person (to be so young and be treated to "guru-hood"
The educational Apple games I wrote for the teachers were hilarious!
One was "supposed" to teach math. What it does is it asks a simple + - * / arithmetic question. If you answer 1 right, you get to play to short Space Invader like game.
Basically the gaming sections are much longer than the "educational" content
I wrote an Apple HGR program of a girl friend who talks to me, in both HGR graphics, and also in text.
I had so many fond memories. It gave me so much positive experience growing up with computers.
Did the "experiment" fail? Naw. Not in my case.
Thanks again to the wonderful Apple founders.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
It's really good news, especially when the feeling toward Red Hat was they were becoming Linux's Microsoft, it shows a bit of the traditional 'open source spirit' we should all encourage (even though they're charging for tech support).
However, as I work in a school (university, actually) and have family in various schools, I think I would be right in saying I expect the take-up of this offer to be very low.
UK schools are very backward towards IT. Recently the Internet has given bigger schools the incentive they need to upgrade and think more seriously about their IT needs, but old habits die hard.
Schools are strapped for cash. The smaller schools and junior schools send out newsletters to tell parents to collect hundreds of vouchers off of detergent packets, just to save up enough to get ONE computer. And even then it's something nobody else wants. Traditionally IT knowledge in schools is a joke. The students always know more than the teachers.
When I was 11, I found I had desperate teachers come crawling on hands and knees, taking me out of lessons, just to help them with something simple on one of the schools three computers. More recently, doing my A-levels, it was the students who implemented the networks (first Linux network in the building) and interest from a physics teacher! The careers department got a brand new (at the time) P133 with two CD-ROM drives, the computer studies department got six 486DX's, without CD drives, striped right down to the bare essentials, without even any cache on the motherboards!!!
Giving away the operating system free may help some schools, especially if Red Hat are sending out standard boxed sets that include manuals. However there's the cost of implementation that's just not an option with schools here.
So the OS is free? It's a shame there's no staff to install it.
insignificant sig
My favorite palindrome: a man a plan a canal panama
Mine is:
Esope reste ici et se repose
"Esope stay here and take some rest" in English but it doesn't have the same effect
Anyway:
Amazing how the big Linux companies have brainwashed people into thinking that paying $50 gives you more than just a nice box, support and a printed manual.
Well, I thought that the manual, the nice box and the support was all so i wonder what they are trying to make us believe there is more.
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
-- Yes indeed, welcome to the land of a monopoly telecomm supplier who has sat on ADSL for FIVE F**KING YEARS whilst miling us dry for low-speed Dial Up Internet Access. Their pricing for ISDN was a joke also. BTW there are no such things as free local calls to your ISP's neasest POP so all in all it is ESSENTIAL that Redhat get the actual CD-ROMs out there. (You do remember that part in the Findings of Fact where Judge P. Jackson said that DL'ing was worse than other forms of software distribution.
This seems like a major win to me. If you think about it, why do people use Windows? Because they are familiar with it. It's what they use at work. It's what their kids use at school, etc.
If kids grow up with Linux, it will be familiar to them and they'll be likely to stick with it. People hate change! (Just think of how people react if you introduce a new rev of the same software in your office -total panic!)
I have to wonder how many Mac users who are in their 20's are Mac users today because Apple donated a computer to every California classroom in the mid 80's.
// deep thanks
:) ). (Windows? What Windows?)
... compared to DOStel.
... and became professional DOS-tel programmer.
:) in a school of all computer illiterates of course :) ) in a small pond like this.
... they let me anyway, since they couldn't find and buy any educational (or otherwise :) ) Apple software at all ... they were at my mercy ... HA HA HA!
I was one of the early Apple 2 beneficiary to elementary and junior high schools.
If it was not for Apple founders' foresight and generosity, I would not have had access (however great my desire) to coding and programming computers as early as I had wanted.
This one random act of kindness changed my (and probably many others') life and where it went from then on.
// Apple loyalty
It did work and it didn't.
In my case, I stood staunchly steadfast against DOS-tel (yup, that long ago
There were 2 circumstances that forced my hand very reluctantly away from my beloved Apples.
a. Macintosh betrayal
To me the creation of Mac-line (Lisa) itself, and then Apple's favoritism to Mac and abandonment of my beloved Apple 2-line (Apple 2 gs is ADORABLE!) hits me like a dagger to a naive child's heart.
How could they abandon the simplicity of command line, the "hackability" of a machine you keep fiddling the internals with into this icky GOOEY dummy-proof box that discourage you from playing with it?
Apple 2's have a LOT of room to grow. Dummy-proof-ing and pretty-fy-ing it was not what I was thinking.
Apple 2 gs was a good and right direction. (ah I can program sound cards, I have more graphics programming options, yeah, etc.)
Then the double betrayal of giving up on us loyal Apple-2-ers to support the new-fangled Mac-line, that was too much.
b. $ and survival
After a while, there is absolutely no (not even minimal wage) income to be made in Apple 2
So I sourly crammed in DOS knowledge and Intel processor knoweldge (was surprised how similar things are)
Was "conformed" even before the Windows OS.
c. could they have won?
I don't know about the entire population, but I knew I would had stuck with the Apple 2 line if Apple itself would had stuck with it and not made the dreadful Macintosh thing.
Even if it meant poverty and unemployment (in coding field, I will just do it on the side).
But then I guess my life would had turned out very differently then.
// digression
BTW, teachers were no help. It was a funny situation. One day a bunch Apple 2 showed up. No one knew what to do with them. I just turned them on, fiddled around.
Still no teachers knew what to do, but I started to teach myself everything, how to code it, connecting them together. (HW-wise the Apple 2's were very hackable.)
The teachers started to ask me questions on them, and started to ask me to make use for them.
I started to code grade book programs, automatic letter to parent generation programs.
My elemenatry-junior high school started to pay me minimum wage (my first PROFESSIONAL programming job!) to do computer coding work.
I wrote up curriculum, wrote (supposedly) educational games, taught students and teachers, while having access to a whole bunch of Apples at one time.
Some teachers started to think I knew about this computer thing from another country, but I only started learning while in America at the school!
I learned a new language English at the same time I learned Apple BASIC, and then Apple assembly. So yes, I have been speaking assembly for as long as I have spoken English.
It was empowering to have the confidence to be the smartest computer person (to be so young and be treated to "guru-hood"
The educational Apple games I wrote for the teachers were hilarious!
One was "supposed" to teach math. What it does is it asks a simple + - * / arithmetic question. If you answer 1 right, you get to play to short Space Invader like game.
Basically the gaming sections are much longer than the "educational" content
I wrote an Apple HGR program of a girl friend who talks to me, in both HGR graphics, and also in text.
I had so many fond memories. It gave me so much positive experience growing up with computers.
Did the "experiment" fail? Naw. Not in my case.
Thanks again to the wonderful Apple founders.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Okay.. so I tried reading some of the comments posted in response to this article.. after about the 500th "Isn't it free already?" comment, I think I might bring up some points as to why this was worded that way..
First of all, this is from a mainstream media source (BBC) so the concept of a TOTALLY FREE software product might be completely alien to them, or at least unconventional. I posit that the writers/editors of the article emphasized the free aspect of the donation so that their readers, who may or may not have even heard of UNIX, let alone Linux, would see it as a significant event..
Secondly, while it is true that RedHat bundles some non-opensource 3rd party software in it's boxed versions, the main thing RH is selling is the support.. and even in that department Colin Tenwick RH's VP-Europe has stated he's not looking to make a profit from the situation.
So, why don't we just take this for what it is?
A Good Thing. Free SW for kids to learn and use. That many more Linux users in the world. (it's a big party, the more the merrier) And especially, kids who will perhaps have their first experience with a computer using an OS that is WELL DESIGNED and MAINTAINED.. unlike *other* operating systems... so just feel happy for the kids and give some credit to RedHat for giving back to the community.
-- "This is my sig... there are many like it but this one is mine"
not sure they gave them to us for free but supplying our school with a programming machine made much more sense than a bunch of C64's :)
.oO0Oo.
Plenty of the UK geeks I know cut their teeth on the Acorn wonder machine. Precsisely because they DIDN'T have the bells and whistles of the other home micros ('cept Elite, Repton, Revs, Chuckie Egg, Frak!, etc. etc.
Command lines almost FORCE knowledge on you.
Mind you does Redhat work on an Archemidies?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
"Only to be "reprogrammed" by a Microsoft owned college :)"
I hate to burst your bubble, but Microsoft doesn't own any colleges. Do you hate them so much that you will believe anything negative someone says about them? They have a marketing agreement with certain universities. So what? So does McDonalds and Starbucks. Are you also pissed at Ford for entering into agreements with certain other universities to supply them with vehicles?
Microsoft did not come an campus and buy the board of regents or the deans or anyone. Rather, and I know that this is hard for people to understand, the universities voluntarily chose Microsoft. "But...but...but", you stammer, "Microsoft has billions of dollars and you can't compete with a competitor." BFD. The universities needed new network infrastructures. That takes money. Sure Redhat could have given them a couple hundred free CDs, but they don't have the cash resource to build a new network for them. The universities had a choice between Microsoft (and others) and a network, or Redhat and no network. Did you expect them to be stupid?
But what if a university did decide on Redhat? What does that do to Debian, SuSE and Slackware? What does that do to FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD?
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
This could backfire with techies though.
RedHat could be seen as taking advantage of the fact that most people don't know it's free to get an unjustified "Aww how nice of them to give away their product to schools" reaction. Remember that the public is used to paying for their operating systems...
Even though I haven't paid for Linux since RH 4.1, I can see the value in this. Previous posters have said they should be downloading it. But the fact is, they aren't. American schools could be downloading it, but they aren't. But by RedHat PERSUING the schools, and educating them, the kids get a good OS, and the company gets publicity. Kind of like Apple did in the 80's. My school NEVER would have bought Mac Plus's, but since they GAVE them to us, we got (at that time) a superior OS to DOS and Apple got good PR.
Open SW is a two way street, if the people aren't downloading for free, then we have to tell them why they should.
xrayspx
I like music
Your age is showing... :) Ask some twentysomethings how grew up with Windows about hacking it, and you'll find they have the same general experience as a lot of other hackers. COM is amazingly hackable once you get used to navigating the maze of plumbing.
---
I am the network admin at Parrs Wood, I started work in the summer and set up a number of small networks running slackware, doing samba servering and masq'd modem connections.
:).
Late last year we were looking for commerial funding for the school and I suggested we approched Redhat, they have agreed to £15,000 worth of sponsorship.
The other part of this deal is that we run Redhat linux on our servers (free support, training, etc) and provid a number of dual boot work stations.
This basically boils down to the fact that the backend is run on linux, the users never see it, it just works
I am very interested in hering from any linux folks in the north west of the UK, as we _may_ be looking for more staff / consulancy in the next 3-6 months
This sounds like what Apple did in the early days of the Apple2, I think this is a good mocve redhat to get kids familiarized with this technology early on so I becomes second-nature. Now the only question is will kids use it?
Also I would be wise to do a similiar sort of thing will the US education system, if they can. Are there any sort of provisions prevented them from doing this? There is usually a whole pile of contracts and legal crap that goes along with stuff of this nature.
It would be nice to see this in US schools.
I hate to burst your bubble, but Microsoft doesn't own any colleges.
Oddly enough, I'm actually aware of that. Perhaps owned should have been in quotes. Than you may have understood that it's wasn't literal.
Do you hate them so much that you will believe anything negative someone says about them?
No, I simply attend classes at and work as a staff member (computer related) at a University which recently signed a deal with Microsoft. But of course, you understand the issues more than I, so I digress.
As for your other comments about other companies. Pepsi has an agreement with PSU as well, and it's gennerally hated because you CANNOT get coke or coke products on campus. Microsoft has made it known that they would like their software to run our server and labs. Only the fact that it CANNOT handle the load of this university prevented it (and the outrage expressed by the IT dept and students)
The universities needed new network infrastructures.
After beta testing win2k, it looks like we are moving even more over to *nix based solutions. The deal was they gave out pseudo-free software to students. Combined with the buggy nature of it (office 2k) and the obscene restrictions, we would have been better off without.
But what if a university did decide on Redhat?
Perhaps they will, but not because Redhat gives them CDs, then begins preasuring them to. Personally, I'd prefer that universities let each department decide to use the technology that works best for them. I don't believe a college should accept money (with strings attached) from any company.
Lastly, there is a new PSU policy that appeares to regulate links to external site from within PSU sites. Basically, if you are linking to a competitor of one of our "doners" you site can be shut down. Sound like a good thing to you?
Finkployd
Bill Gates: "Innovation"
I think this is a perfect step in the right direction. Red Hat and VA Linux should be using their IPO riches for pushing Linux (and service) at basic levels, like schools and small businesses. How many people do you know who wouln't deviate from their beloved Mac even when they were far from the best computing platform out there? This is largely because Apple pushed Macs in schools from the beginning and people got attatched. If students and teachers both learn to use Linux it will spread much faster.
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
Seriously, though, if every geek offered to donate a couple of hours a week helping the local schools, particularly with Debian since it's noncommercial, I think that would accomplish more than a public handout of CDs and manuals.
Carefree highway, let me slip away on you.
Sorry to sound like a cynic, but this is an equally cynical PR move by the new Red Hat. I mean, are they even donating free shrinkwrapped boxes or are they saying "Just for you, we'll cut you a deal" and give out 1 CD-ROM with 500 zillion "licenses".
First of all, RH is their *distribution*, not "their operating system. This wording is splitting hairs among *us*, but many in the media thing Red Hat = Linux and everyone else is an also-ran. This is the legacy of the Windows Herd Mentality.
Every Distribution has it's strength and weaknesses. One Red Hat weakness is ease of use, where they're 4 months behind Mandrake, Corel, Caldera and probably SuSE 6.3 (I haven't tried that one).
Where's the story in this? Will someone please step forward and donate one $2 Debian CD's to the school?
I don't think this is bad for Red Hat - this is good PR also for the OS - but Red Hat would appease the CYNIC in me if they said "we'll give them 75% off support", rather than "we won't commit to a specific discount, if any".
I don't use Debian YET, but it's becoming my favorite simply because the distribution and the development process BY THEMSELVES are Open. How much influence do we have on Red Hat or Corel's distributions? If you want the answer, take a close look at their installers. GUI installs are not a checklist item for a review-driven marketing contest.
This post made with Mozilla M12...
"Basically, if you are linking to a competitor of one of our "doners" you site can be shut down. Sound like a good thing to you?"
No, it doesn't sound like a good thing. However, it is not my network. It belongs to PSU. Not the students. Not the professors. Not IT. If, on the other hand, they placed restrictions on your own personal network, that definitely be illegal. But as it stands now, it is merely bad form.
My employer has every right to limit my browsing porn sites, or submitting resumes to other companies, while using the company networks and computers. A university has exactly these same rights.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
As a student of one of the top ten public highschools in the United States (and two months away from a CCNP certification),I can say with authority that if Linux was implemented in my school we would not have usable computers. Ever. This is due to the willingness to pass a 10 million dollar Technology in Education Referendum , but the refusal to hire admin.'s (or allow the students to administer) , and instead make the library staff perform the administrative duties. The results are draconian access rules (report card's are withheld until the student signs an "Internet conduct Pledge") or plain out stupidity(The Cisco Academy Network is not allowed any access to the internet , even though there is a fiber optic switch in the same room , and the building has a T1. It is my belief that the situation is rather similar in many schools across the nation. Even if Redhat gave a crate of CD's and service contracts to my school , nothing would result from it.
To be fair, Redhat's core market is not techies; they have an explicit aim of taking users away from Win32, rather than poaching from other distributions. Thus they are competing mainly with SuSE, whereas Debian and Slackware mop up the hardcore of old-school Linux users.
Therefore, the people who don't know that they can get RedHat free are the people RH are looking for...
Stroke of marketing genius in my book!
Sure, I can get Red Hat free myself, but the box and manual is an addition that may have changed my school's opinion on the matter around.
My highschool, of which I dropped out in my senior year from, was part of a school district that refused to run anything but Windows NT and 95, due to the fact that they "have seen Linux take down an NT server when plugged into the network."
This anti-alternative OS situation became a problem when a friend and I created an alternative network for the school. We had everything up and running under Slackware 3.6 with redundant servers, NIS and workstation apps such as The GIMP. (Which was cool since the school only had six photoshop licenses for fourty computers).
When we presented our network to the school's administration, they refused to hook us up to the school's network because Linux was a "Shareware operating system with source code, so any 'hacker' could put a back door in it."
Redhat on a CD with a box from a company would be the first step in opening these sorts of people's minds. I applaud Redhat.
It's not the students who need to learn, it's the administration.
>> Only to be "reprogrammed" by a Microsoft owned college :)"
/very/ substantial sum of money to this place. I'm pretty sure there are no strings, per se, attached to Gates's donations (ObDisclaimer: I'm not a computer scientist), but I'd be amazed if people didn't look favourably on the company of a serious benefactor - it's only human nature.
Arandir said:
> I hate to burst your bubble, but Microsoft doesn't own any colleges.
It comes very very close in some cases; the university I'm at (Cambridge in the UK) is naming a Computer Science building after William H Gates III, who has donated a
This sentence no verb
Head hurt that make
bah.
no one uses applications in school.
I'll admit in high school I did ocasionally use a word processor. But it wasn't too much different than the one I have on my Linux box right now.
Kids mostly want to play games. But only for the first couple weeks after they get them. Then some few will leave but some few like me will stay.
I did't stay to use spread sheets. I didn't stay to type stupid stuff in word processors. Or even to organize my check book.
After I had beaten all my games on my 80-88 I stayed to program in basic. I taught myself basic in fourth grade and up by reading source. A lot of other kids did too. My mother once said that basic was so much better than any computer game because I didn't seem to get tired of it.
All of the stuff I learnt about computers I learnt from friends. All the games I got were share/free ware games that I got from my friends. We was almost a club of computer enthusiats. And guess what! Not one of us gave a flaming hoot about spreadsheets. Or wordprocessors. We cared about games, pranks (all harmless and fun), programing and modems.
When windows 3.1 graphics came out, basic was kinda pointless. So I took a pascal programming class in highschool. But that ofcourse didn't help at all because where was I going to get a compiler at home? My parents weren't going to shell out any 40 bucks for it.
So far as i remember, my parents (like most people) only used the software that came with there computer. Unless of course the software was free.
Now I'm taking Electrical and Computer Engineering in College. When I got my computer, of course, I installed Linux because it was cheaper (free) and because it came with all the tools I would need. I'm still a little bit new at it (3 months so far) but I wish I had it back in school because it is so FUN.
Linux comes with so many tools for budding, and also flowering hackers. Imagine all the cool stuff you could do with AWK. It's almost as simple as turtle but it has real uses. Looking through source code has actually been really cool. More than I would have thought. Linux has so many programs that are human readable and you could mess around with them all day.
And talk about aplications! Debian has thousands of applications that set themselves up automajically. (I know the article is about redhat but I use debian so bear with me).
So I guess what I'm trying to say is.
1) From my experience Linux actually has FAR MORE applications than windows. Even if windows has more, it doesn't do me any good if I can't afford them.
2) Applications are generally not very interesting. As a kid I stayed away from them as I do now.
and also netscape hasn't been giving me any problems since I installed my current version. Only thing is I wish it had better PNG support.
I commend the initiative by Red Hat and the decision by the staff of Parrs Wood on this matter. For those reasons I sort of wish I were going to high school in the United Kingdom rather than high school "X" (name withheld).
I feel the most interesting thing about this is not that RedHat is giving it away for free (well duh), or that tech support is discounted, but that the school actually accepted it. That's absolutely astonishing to me, and I seriously doubt that X High School would ever go for that.
Why? Oh, not because Linux is not a stable operating system, not because Linux is not supported on the hardware (I've already proven that it is on one box...), but because people just don't get it. They don't understand anything that's not Windows, and for the most part, not even that (our NT SA has never installed NT). Last year some students (working for the school as System Administrators) had set up a webserver, mailserver, and some other fun goodies mostly running RedHat on Sparcs. If I recall correctly, my friend said a man from the Central Office FORCED them to take them down. His major complaints were that it was unstable and insecure (simultaneously I thought about a bug report I had seen on a buffer overflow exploit for Microsoft Internet Information Server... oh and my friends soon quit that bummer of a job). And to think... once upon a time there was going to be a massive sun server powering little terminals throughout the building. Just last year we were promised several SGI boxes at nearly 50% discounts and full support, only to find that the CompSci department turned them down in favor of a bunch of G3s to do the video editing on! The SGI demo was the first place I had ever seen any time of UNIX demonstrated (and I drooled over the hotswappable harddrives and simply that case), but of course, the department didn't understand the value of such machines and how much we would have learned from using something other than a Mac.
I think it's wonderful that schools in the United Kingdom are going to be getting a flavor (or rather, flavour) of UNIX to play with. Those kids are in for quite a learning experience and, judging by the marketplace today, an incredibly valuable experience too. I was definately born in the wrong country. I'd be overjoyed to see something like this in my school. I wonder how it is in other schools in the US...
Torn from the forlorn corn, my meal was born.
Having went to school in Wales, this is such a great thing. Hopefully this will win the RedHat company a royal crest or two, if they can get in running in Buckingham palace (and I'm sure they will)! It's nice to know more Brits will be taught with Linux vs. that "other" OS. Very uplifting. Discussion on that and more.. http://www.tgwbp.addr.com/cgi-bin/wwwboard.cgi http://www.tgwbp.addr.com/cgi-bin/wwwboard.cgi http://www.tgwbp.addr.com/cgi-bin/wwwboard.cgi http://www.tgwbp.addr.com/cgi-bin/wwwboard.cgi
Sorry, this is no differnt than if Microsoft giving free software to schools.
No better, no worse.
I remember reading several times that Microsoft is concerned about Linux getting mindshare among programmers. Getting Linux into schools seems like an excellent way of getting mind share among the school age geeks who'll be the programmers of the next generation.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Still, he refused and forked out the money for Windows NT, saying it's better supported (or words very much to that effect). And we did show him a working Linux internet proxy, so did have some facts.
Is there much objective evidence for this "better supported" claim?
Schools (or anyone else for that matter) could install as many copies of RedHat as they wanted without paying anything, as long as they were not expecting free support.
How is the 'new' situation different? How do schools benefit from this? Are RHAT simply trying to obscure the implications of the GPL and make people think they have to pay for something they don't?
And why are we giving free publicity to clueless marketroids who should know better?
Well I goto school in the UK. Now from what schools I've seen, 95% of schools in the UK use PC's from the same supplier: RM PLC (www.rmplc.net I think). Now this is obviously going to help hardware compatibility, because most pcs will have the same hardware (roughly). I am not sure about the under-funding some people stated, my school has just received £50,000 and is applying to become a technology college. There is a Dual-ISDN internet connection at school, running from MS-Proxy, this is VERY unreliable. It is always crashing etc. However, although switching to linux would be a great idea for the 80+ computers in the school, I don't really think it's going to happen. I guess I'll concentrate on trying to persuade the computer geek to use linux as the internet proxy instead. Anyways, this is great news! And I hope our school becomes a technology college :)
--- Miscreant Contact me on EFNet IRC, ICQ 8336386, or email Miscreant@SPAMPROOFcyberdude.com (remove SPAMPROOF)
I read your comment with amusement how you measured competancy by compiling the kernel, and *whoa* configuring LILO by hand. No offense :) but a disabled banana could do them.
;-)
Actually, I was trying to emphasize that I am not afraid to tinker. I'm not worried about wrecking my system. But when I am doing this sort of thing, I have an occasional use for printed documentation. I was trying to point out exactly the sorts of things that should appear in print because of when they are needed.
As for your point, I'm rather thick-skinned, but a disabled banana could not recompile the kernel. You have to be able to guess what modules you want, and even type a little. I think it would require a trained cat at least.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
His objective evidence was basically that the company through which the school got their computers from supported NT, no other O/S (okay, so they install Win95).
Initially (i.e. 2 years ago), they said they *do* support Novell, but their server fell over at least once a day, and so they've backtracked and said "Nope. No Novell. Only NT."
Common sense is a set of prejudices built up over a lifetime
The URL is: http://www.parrswoodhighschool.org.uk/ .
.org.uk rather than .sch.uk reserved for schools.
NetCraft Stats says Apache on Unix (Solaris). Good stuff, although I am curious why they have
Dean Swift, dean@xirium.com
Xirium, http://www.xirium.com/
when card punches where the way to program. You could become a guru if you knew how to touch-type. My first personal computer was a Cosmac Elf, 1803 RCA controller/CPU with a hex keypad and hex display. It had an upgrade that would allow you to display an image on a TV. It was built for a Composite Video monitor so you had to build your own oscillator circuitry to beat the Comp.Vid. signal against to send it to the TV tuner. No worrying about the FCC I sent a signal at MANY frequencies, but hey, I could see it and that was what counted. I was working on an ascii keyboard interface when the Timex-Sinclair came out. 2k of ram and you could get a 16k upgrade. Z80 programming and graphics that were almost as good as those store bought thingies. Those were the days laddie, grin.
Jumping to correct solutions slowly is better than jumping to incorrect solutions quickly.
Exactally, makes it tough to have a linux user group or club on campus when we may have to loose all our links on our web site. The problam is, the university would never have imposed these restrictions without the "encouragment" of our current corporate doners. Therefore, in a sense the doners now "own" the university. If nothing else, they have substancial power here. That is not the way a place of higher learning and research should operate. You're right it's bad form, that is what I was talking about to begin with.
Finkployd
Bill Gates: "Innovation"
I'd have to disagree on this one. .edu discount is going to expire - that's the time to hit them. I almost picked up a Mac at that point several (okay, more than several) years ago.
If you have them using a Mac in college, when the student is graduating (and getting ca$h presents) the student might be picking up a new system.
When the
Now I despise macs. Who ever heard of a 'named' hard drive that breaks your applications (that have to have hardcoded paths) when you 'rename' it?
Macs suck. Badly.
File I/O is garbage.
TCP/IP is awful.
I don't give a !@#$ about photoshop.
.
I've got better things to do than administer a network every working day.
:)
The only think which actually needs to be done day to day on my system is changing the tape. Something which dosn't require any computer skill
I doubt that any competent UN*X literate IT people would be available to work in a school..
Actually you'd be wrong, it's more the case of dividing into those who understand computers and those who only "understand" Windows (Though to actually really understand Windows is something beyond many people.)
Just go to an FTP site and download it.
In practice, this equates to around GBP14.
Unless the school is using someone other than British Telecom to provide it's physical connection.
I have nothing against Red Hat / Linux (in fact it is my prefered distribution) but I really do not think many schools will benifit from it (there will be one or two that will do amazing stuff and that will be all).
Maybe if someone was to go and find out what teachers need they could come up with something much better. A lot of educational software is very poor so even basic stuff could improve things a lot. Some simple games (eg number puzzles) could be put together in TCL very quickly along with a some scripts to run a Linux distribution in a way that is far more suited to schools. Along with the stuff that almost everyone likes (like easy to setup hardware) schools have other requirments, like slimed down user interfaces (RM, a big UK PC supply sell a version of MS Word that runs a template to cut out all but five or six icons).
I know all this can be done with Linux, but I don't think most schools have the time or energy. This could be a big area for someone who wants to develop a custom version of Red Hat (email me!).
It looks like Red Hat want the same type of think for Linux as the BBC Micro but I do not think they realise how much times have changed. (sorry if their are a few grammer/spelling errors, I wrote this very quickly).
The objective evidence is strongly against this "better supported" claim. You are witnessing the FUD factor.
His objective evidence was basically that the company through which the school got their computers from supported NT, no other O/S (okay, so they install Win95).
Does "support" mean
a) they will come and fix it when it goes wrong (at no extra cost and before the end of the lesson)?
b) they will offer telephone advice on NT?
c) they will be abusive concerning any problems with the machine (including hardware faults) if it's not running NT?
d) they hope their hardwear will work with NT?
The term "support" is often so badly abused as to be meaningless without further qualification.
What users really want is something similar to a, whereas suppliers tend to mean b, c or d.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Items c and d the supplier generally *did*, with telephone advice, they basically said "We don't know, we'll send an engineer out".
As for item a, coming and fixing it, they were located half-way across the country (about 2 hours drive). However, even when an engineer was promised the next day, it normally took them a week to arrive:
We once had a hard drive in the server crash completely; it took the engineers a week to come out, then they took the server away. It didn't come back for over a month. Fortunately, the drive crashed in the last week before the holidays, otherwise the school would have been stuck without a server for about a month. How's that for customer servce?
Common sense is a set of prejudices built up over a lifetime
OT apologies.
... and part of being that is not to be wierdly super genius at math.
:) Peer pressure tried to bludgeon me over the head that being totally into math and computers, taking math classes at college , massively screwing up the curves in AP physics and calculus for all the senior boys ... all of these things mean you are a freak if you are a girl doing it, at least it means you are a "brain" and not a "beauty/hotty."
... yet this same person who can be a model is also a "freak" on the basis she is a nerd.)
... popularity meant 0 to me (very obvious to my high school mates :) ).
This is what is sad.
2 of my junior high best friends (and kick a** math students) were 2 other girls.
They were (are) smart. We would get the highest grades.
Then something sad and tragic happens to my 2 girlfriends around 6th to 7th grades.
They start being interested being a girl, which unbeknownst to me (since I was and am socially inept and oblivious) means hide that you are good at or are interested in math and computers, or that as girl that you are good at anything at all.
The important thing is for other girls to like you, for you to dress nice, and for many boys to like you
That's what I mean by hit them young before they got brainwashed.
I *watched* my 2 girlfriends got brainwashed (they are still nice people, and still sweet).
High school tried hard to brainwash me, trust me.
(N.B. There is a "smart" threshold for girl high school popularity. It is OK (and important to popularity) to be reasonably smart, like join the honor society, be "computer literal", be a "cool chick.
But it is NOT OK to be THE SMARTEST chick/person who is several times over the head of the next smartest guy in the whole school. i.e, OK to be the valedictorian, but not OK if most of the AP calculus students are seniors, and you are in graduate math in 9th grade and writing papers.)
This prejudice is so strange.
(Given that when I was being super nerd at high school for being great at math and physics, I was actually making cash professionally as a photography model
Fortunately for me, I very much enjoy being a freak.
I love hanging around our small group of AD&D guys (all guys except me) who were tormented by the jocks, et. al. They are "real" people, and I am glad I have friendships with "real" and "intelligent" people
enough ranting now.
so, no, a lot of them dropped out.
Because society was cruel enough to tell a lot of other GIRLS (and even boys) computers are not for them.
They listened.
And I didn't.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
I've put in RedHat linux servers for both
Thumbswood and Blackthorn schools in Hertfordshire.
Windows on the desktop, but the apps are loaded
from a samba drive and the web is browsable through
squid.
Support costs - 1 day to set up, 1 hours support
since the system went online 09/99. Can't say
the same about supporting the W95 boxes though, ugh.
Tim
-- Don't believe everything you read, hear or think
Ha! This is hilarious. This is akin to in RL ...
... and man ... why is it not done yet?
a guy goes to McDonald's everyday, and he notices someone he recognizes go there too.
He has been waiting a really long time for this guy to finish making his game (who is doing it from scratch all by himself for a little less than 1 year)
Then he notices something insightful.
He notices this coder doesn't take his McDonald's to go. He eats it there. He eats it slooowly. He does this for lunch and dinner everyday.
After enough days of this, the guy who wonders why the game takes so long to be done has had enough.
He walks up to the other guy and say,
"If I were your boss, I'd make McDonald's stop serving you your burgers."
:)
P.S. *sigh* If anyone is doing it for ego, one would splatter all my thoughtless meanderings at all those Adrenalin Vault interviews and that 1 Time interview and all the magazines interviews that I keep turning down. I would take lots of air-brushed photographs of myself and post them all over the place to go with them. *silly*
Instead, by trolling with a fun math or little post here and there, I get to meet and make nifty MIT math grad students that I can bounce ideas off to and make my life overall more enjoyable by gathering more geeks with similar interests around me.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer