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Interview: Jon Johansen of deCSS Fame (UPDATED)
This week's interview guest, Jon Lech Johansen, has been all over the news (and all over Slashdot) lately. He's the guy behind the whole deCSS thing. Jon has been getting interviewed all over the place, but I'm sure you have questions for him that the "straight" media people would never ask. So go for it! One question per post, please. 10 - 15 chosen questions will be forwarded to Jon Tuesday, and his answers are scheduled to appear Friday.
Update: 01/31 14:52 by michael : Several people have pointed out that LinuxWorld ran an interview with Johansen today. So, rather than repeat the same questions that LinuxWorld asked, people should check out that interview and see what questions they still have about the situation...
(NT)
Isn't it true that you invented this primo excellent software in anticipation of the release of "Takedown" (CNN Entertainment story) in DVD and you really are a big Don Knots fan?
Thank you.
Did the Nokia mobile phone that the police took away from get delivered to you just minutes before and if why didn't you jump out of the window as the voice on the phone said ? Hey, I'm just AC, so beowulf me :-)
Whats a rab, you racist dipshit?
Hello Jon,
I'm the regular "Free Jon's computers !" troll here, and would like to know how do you survive without them.
On a more serious note, were you prepared for this kind of seizure with file/filesystem encryption, or some other methods ?
Free Jon's computers !
P.S. DO YOU OWN AN AIBO?
I am personally of the position that it is impossible to copy-protect media that can be displayed digitally, because there will ALWAYS be a way to rerecord or otherwise capture the output (and with digital media, capture it with no quality degradation.)
That then begs the question: in your opinion, do you think the MPAA and DVD cabal is acting on a legitimate (however misinformed) fear of piracy, or do you think it's a (potential pro-m$) ploy to stick it to the Open Source community and save their behinds for making poor encryption?
Being from a fairly liberal nation, it must be fairly puzzling to be made the "example" of by the american government.
Sorry, chief, but AFAIK, the American government was not involved with Johansen's arrest. In fact, the American government is split over DeCSS - one court protected the source code as freespeech, while another protected the copyrights by blocking the source code. It's a bit two-sided here.
He was being made an "example" of by the MPAA, and to be honest, I found Brazil more disturbing than 1984. Governments and religion have always had this much power, but when corporations can do this, I find that extremely frightening.
jon, please accept an apology from me on behalf of my sorry-ass country. the mpaa has absolutely no right to strong-arm your country's government. good luck to you.
When are you planning on making revisions or something, the sound is really soft, maybe its just me.
We'd also like to know whether you've EVER had a steaming bowl of hot grits poured down your pants.
Do you think that bringing the MPAA website down to its knees would help generate the attention needed by the general public to help OPEN UP EVERYEONE'S EYES to the injustice thats being done to you?
I personally think corporations are really weak when they have to pick on a teenager who is obviously smarter then the MPAA
FIGHT THE POWER
At the Time DeCSS was written, Lunux could not read the UDF Filesystem well enough to perform the task.
According to US copyright law, people are allowed to make copies of copywritten material for fair use (archives, back-ups and such). The MPAA's actions indicate that not only will it not tolerate anything other than playback devices it has sanctioned, but also that it wants to revoke rights guaranteed the public by copyright law. Do you think that if fair use reproductions are prohibited by technical methods, that the publisher should have no legal recourse against those who create methods for others to use their lawful rights? Maybe they should legally have to replace those items I can't copy(for back-up) free of charge?
There was a time when the average Slashdotter could be trusted to grasp the simple, obvious fact that Gwen Stefani IS NOT A FUCKING ACTRESS. She's a singer. And furthermore, Winona Ryder, hot though she may be, isn't all that young any more.
Due to these flaws, your entire post cannot be taken seriously. Please get your facts straight next time if you want your views to get a fair hearing in this forum.
the xmovie binary version incorporates some form of CSS descrambling. the code version does not include this capability. they're looking to dodge legal issues i imagine.
It's "chosen questions will be forwarded to Jon ON Tuesday" dagnamit!
Unless Tuesday is a common Norwiegian surname that I wasn't previously aware of.
Deep breath... one, two, three.. okay you can moderate me down now.
--
A. Brit
That email only seems to make cursory references to a Linux player. Perhaps the whole Linux player bit is just a red herring being thrown to the press?
Why do moderators keep downgrading this post?
It's a very good question.
Like I say, if moderators don't understand, they downgrade!
>>Would you like a nice, large, steaming bowl of hot grits down your pants?
>
>We'd also like to know whether you've EVER had a steaming bowl of hot grits poured down your pants.
The answer would have to be yes, two bowls to be precise.
>>Would you like a nice, large, steaming bowl of hot grits down your pants?
>
>We'd also like to know whether you've EVER had a steaming bowl of hot grits poured down your pants.
The answer would have to be yes, two bowls to be precise - that was at GritCamp '88.
Hi.
Have you or anyone informed the movie companies that "they are not in kansas any more" and outside of the Us, Us legislation does not apply, and we can pretty much reverse engineer anything we want (for interoperability and compatibility and EVEN other reasons), *WHATEVER* science fiction the license agreement (or whatever) may contain?
Regards,
Guy in Sweden
P.S: Lycka till grabben
do you like to pour hot grits down you pants?
1 W4NT 2 S3LL \/CDZ 0N 3B4Y C4N 1 UZ3 Y0R D3CSS PR0GR4M PLZ?????????????
> If a binary Linux DVD player surfaced which supported decryption and the MPAA didn't ban it,
> that would show that the MPAA wasn't interested in monopolizing
If you have to ask someone else's permission to do something, by definition they have a monopoly on that privilege.
> So we see a natural reaction: no Linux DVD players capable of decryption being mentioned
> anywhere or linked by anyone
Why do you write things that you know are untrue?
You have posted to the mailing list for the player, you know it exists.
Moreover, MOST OF THE DECSS MIRRORS ALSO MIRROR THE LIVID CODE INCLUDING A LINUX DVD PLAYER!!
And will your answers here on slashdot be used agianst you in a court of law? Have you thought about the repercussions of what you might say here?
That's right, he did. And we should all be thanking him for it. DeCSS restores to consumers rights that the DVD CCA were attempting to deny us. Namely, the right to duplicate a movie for a 'fair use' purpose.
you ever think that the companies involved are just as powerful in other countries as they are in the US? maybe the government there was worried about getting movies and DVDs from these companies...
All I want is the proof of what you are spewing here. The US (or all americans as you people like to say, like we voted on it) forced Norway to turn over the kid.
this isn't a troll, but it will get moderated down by some foreign bastard who likes mindless US bashing as much as everybody else here likes M$ bashing.
Bullshit. Well, sort of bullshit. I agree that the 'DVD under Linux' thing is a red herring. But that doesn't mean that Johansen's goal was to break copyright law. Copyright does not prohibit copying - it prohibits distribution of copies. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for making copies.
So, did Bubba make you his bitch?
All he has to do is send is answers to Slashdot via a covert/untracable mechanism. The courts would have a hard time proving that the answers appearing heare actually came from him.
Read the past discussions on ./ about this to find out why you're an idiot.
Come over here and say it tom my face, you punk-ass bitch.
New Zealand outlawed the region codes. Also the opendvd.org site in the Netherlands has not been subject to any harassment.
When you ask your questions, start by asking it!!!
Don't go off on some type of history recap, and then finish a 500 word post with a 10 word question!
Just get on with it, and ask the damn question already!
If you feel it's absolutely necessary to add background info for your question, do it AFTER you ask the question. That way, people who already know the background stuff you're referring to, don't have to waste their valuable time reading through it to get to the question.
hi, has this experience changed your beliefs about the way society should work.. has it changed how you see government and/or multinational corporations? do you want to be a computer programmer for a big company later in life? Good luck.
Jon --- Read your interview with LinuxWorld. Impressed me. I hate like hell the fact that Big Corporations run the world like they do. To use their terminology: double-ungood. My question: since your brush with the law, have you found it easier to pick up chicks?
wtf?
score: 6 ???
Someone explain please...
Whatever.
I mean, of course studios have a right to protect their intellectual property, their creative content, and/or their trade secrets. Don't bother telling me CSS was an unbelieveably weak protection scheme. Instead tell me this -- how does that negate the studios right to protect their own property?
And then answer this: suppose enough studios deem DVD so unsafe that they stop developing DVD titles. They wait until the next digital disc technology comes along (for example fluorescent multilayer discs), slap on a stronger encryption scheme, and it starts all over again. Then what good is any of this bickering?
You are actually describing the core of the Free Software 'politics'. It is precisely this sort of behaivor that RMS seeks to encourage with his notion of licencing. Also, he claims that this sort of behaivor is actively discouraged by the DVDCCA's notion of licencing.
prob a race condition - code says never let things get moderated above 5 - but if two people simultaneously submit a +1 to the comment then it skips from 4 to 6. "Concepts of Concurrency" - a basic CS class. I'm just guessing that that's the problem though.
Your .sig!!! FORTUNE FAVORS THE BOLD!!!
/me remembers my Flaming Carrot T-shirt that had a picture of the flaming carrot in action, woman in one hand, with the phrase underneath...FORTUNE FAVORS THE BOLD!!!
The only superhero who wears flippers when he's not swimming! The only super hero who admits to smoking a bubble pipe! The ONLY super-hero that has a nuclear powered pogo stick hidden in his snout....
It's THE FLAMING CARROT!!!!!!!!
And don't you ever forget...FORTUNE FAVORS THE BOLD.
Yes, you are entitled to use the playstation game sans the playstation. It is YOURS now. While the code itself may not be yours, you should have some fair usage rights to that media which you legitimately paid for.
It'd be like inviting you to my house and then once you got there asking "who the hell you think you are, coming to my house?? Do you realize what the neighbors will THINK??! Get out!"
Tacky and not very productive. Besides, there are other, better questions.
1) Region codes are illegal (under international law and many national laws), but very few countries enforce these law. The MPAA wants to protect their illegal use of region codes to provide crappy (delayed) releases in Eurpoe and extort additional money from Europeans. The biggest threat that DeCSS represents to the MPAA is that Europeans will buy DVDs legally before they are released in Europe's theaters. If it's Illegal, then could anyone buy a DVD from a different region, try to play it in their own region, and as it won't work, sue the DVD player manufacturer? The MPAA? Anyone? Would it be possible to start a grand scale legal crusade against all DVD manufacturers, just as they are (3 litigations and counting)???
What would happen if the MPAA did something smart and admitted that you didn't do anything illegal? We get our linux DVD players, go buy DVDs, and feed the MPAA again?
The deCSS program is fairly irrelevant; it's css_descramble.c that's important, since that does the decryption and is the part that allows players and filecopiers. That part of it is ANSI C, and if you remove the lookup tables and replace them with functions, it's small enough to print on the back of the T-shirt I'm wearing at this moment. =-) It even uses fprintf to stderr - last I checked, that wasn't Windows.
The only real Windows-specific parts of the deCSS program concerns the file selection dialogs; I could port it in a matter of hours. If you have css_descramble.c it's merely a matter of pulling sectors in and writing sectors out, which is easier in Linux than in Windows.
Just to clarify a few issues.
Moderate this up !
Hi, I am a supporter of the MPAA. What Jon, that scum-eating, piece of sh** did was plain wrong. I believe that the f***ing s**thead, a**hole, son of a b**** judge who granted the injunction is a f***ing moron. So are those f****** EFF lawyers. EFF lawyers, and those who support them: suck my dick!, sue me! p.s. You can quote me. Btw, this brings me to the question. How do we know it was not the MPAA who wrote the insulting comments and posted the source? This could set up a terrible precedent: Fabricate evidence, then sue someone else!
I read somewhere that you said someone is going to pay for your arresting and questioning. What did you have in mind? I am establishing a DVD Strike http://www.gst.net/~beltranh! Would that sound like a first good step?
I remember something about some guy (Steve Jackson) who had his Computer siezed, and he sued the police for a lot of money because he had private email messages on it, and that was invasion of privacy. I'm not sure what the norwegian Police did, but perhaps the DVDCCA because they are no doubt the ones who will look (have looked) at it. It's something to consider.
Maybe if you take away some of their money they'll listen to you.
Why the hell do so many of you think you're so clever and put shit here?
Just as a sidenote. When sweden had the sientology (spelling?) mess the court that held the records got a call from a senator that told them to remove the papers or he would make shure their careers were over :) I winder if he realised that it was another country ?? How is that for "clout" :) /caridon
Thank you Mr. Moron for stating the OBVIOUS... looks like some moderator marked this up after some serious crack smoking...
I don't mean to be condescending or rude here, but it sounds like you are totally misinformed on the /. community.
deCSS issue. Please take time to read about it before posting angry messages. It doesn't make
you look well in the
1. DeCSS is sourcecode. It's not a windows program. When compiled, sourcecode becomes
binary code for a particular computer and operating system. If someone has compiled it for
Windows, then it would be a windows program. But Jan didn't write a Windows program, per se.
2. DeCSS was developed as part of a larger project. The entire style of UNIX programming is
and has always been to build a whole out of many small parts. This is evidenced by very spartan
and/or utilitarian programs like vi, sed, perl. They are not vertically integrated programs, but are
pieces which, when put together, can form the whole puzzle. For example, DeCSS removes the
encryption of the video, before xmovie can play the video stream. In UNIX, it is trivial to connect
the two, using pipes and redirections.
In order to play a DVD movie on a linux box, before Jan's code, you would have had to have a
piece of software with an official license from the DVD CCA. The fact that this decryption routine
would have to be licensed at great cost prohibited there from being a DVD player software for
Linux. However, since it is a very weak encryption, and since it is poorly designed, it was easy to
reverse engineer the encryption for one of the encryption keys. Once that key was obtained, all the
other keys could be unlocked easily, and using any one of the keys, the whole disc can be
unencrypted.
By the way, during normal playback, DVD's are unencrypted by the hardware or software inside
the DVD player or computer. They are then immediately displayed on the monitor. However,
nothing would stop a good pirate from tapping into the serial bitstream that exists between the
decoding process and the display routines. Since that process happens in system memory, all a
creative hacker would have to do is copy the memory as the movie passes through it.
3. Yes, that is the only thing DeCSS does (descrambles the Content Scrambling System).
4. Yes, it runs under windows (as further explained in point 1).
5. He didn't write a DVD copier. This program descrambles the content, and outputs descrambled
content. It does not store that content anywhere in particular. That storage is up to the user or the
operating system, but is out of the control of the DeCSS program as soon as it is output.
The DVD CCA is trying to make a case based on this being a pirating and copying issue. It is in
fact an issue of removing the encryption. There is no such thing in the digital domain as copy
protection. You can set some bits, and tell people, "These bits mean don't copy those bits", or
"these bits mean those bits belong to so-and-so", but you can't stop people from overlooking that
and copying the bits anyway.
For example, let's say you have a Windows NT box. You are security conscious, and so you
format the drive with NTFS filesystem, since you can assign permissions. However, for some
reason, you lose the disk. (Don't ask me how.) Someone gets ahold of it. They put it into their
system, which is running Windows NT also. They mount it, and they can't get to the data, because
Windows NT knows about Windows NT security, and chooses to honor it. However, I'm sure
that there is software which Microsoft would never release, floating around in the engineering labs in
Redmond, which circumvents the security and allows file reading. This is because the files are not
encrypted.
What I think we really need is people to behave better. No amount of laws will change video
pirates from being video pirates. Good people need to just keep being good, and instill good
values in their kids. That's the only way to beat this thing. Business interests like the DVD CCA
and other media conglomerates don't understand that. They only understand that by squashing all
other avenues, theirs is the only way, and they can charge lots of money for it. Same with pro
football, same with anything. So do everyone a favor (sorry, this will be the only biting comment)
and root for the underdog already.
Thanks for reading this, I really do hope it helps clear some things up for you.
Mr. Johansen never released a Windows program of any sorts. I am so sick of seeing this, it's completely false. What happened was: 1. October 6: The Windows binary for DeCSS, without source code, was publicly posted to Jon's web site and announced by him on the Livid-dev mailing list http://livid.on.openprojects.net/pipermail/livid-d ev/1999-October/000494.html. 2. At around the same time or slightly before he sent the source code to Derek Fawcus of Livid. Amusingly it used some GPL'ed code from the Livid project with the copyright statements stripped out http://livid.on.openprojects.net/pipermail/livid-d ev/1999-October/000496.html. 3. On October 25 the source code containing the Xing player key was anonymously posted to Livid-dev. See for example http://livid.on.openprojects.net/pipermail/livid-d ev/1999-October/000517.html. Linux fans please note that he apologises for saying he wished Linux had never been invented, and that he prefers FreeBSD. Open source lesson: if you are going to reverse-engineer, don't get war3z d00dz to do it for you. Do it yourself, properly, in a documented clean-room process. Otherwise it gets really messy.
After a desperate attempt to litigate my way out of trouble (you never know, a viscious, "scorched earth" technique might do the trick), I'd eventually realize I'd just have to knuckle down and earn an honest living, just like everyone else.
Note to lawyers: this message does not hyper-link to any material.
t ml
people.a2000.nl/mwielaar/dvd-css/csspaper/css.h
www.lemuria.org/DeCSS/crypto.gq.nu/
www.derfrosch.de/decss/
Get the paper and source for the attacks (can be found from the last paragraph in the paper) while they are still free (libere).
This is wrong. There are U.S. precedents for clickwrap licenses in some cases (ProCD Inc. v. Zeidenberg, Hill v. Gateway 2000 Inc, Hotmail Corporation v. Van$ Money Pie Incorporated). They may or may not apply to the DVDCCA trade secret case.
provided that the following conditions are met: (a) these acts are performed by the licensee or by another person having a right to use a copy of a program, or on their behalf by a person authorized to to so;
Did anyone in MoRE or DoD actually buy the Xing player? Silly question I know.
Which part of the program did you write, if any at all?
When you released DeCSS it was only a windows BINARY only RIPPER!
What good this is to the linux community is not clear to me
this is fucking funny, not flaimbait. Fucking moderators.
Do you wish to overthrow capitalism? Do you support the establishment of a dictatorship of the proletariat?
Unless you're black and in Texas.
I live in neighbouring Denmark (which in a lot of ways is quite similar to Norway) and I would be VERY surprised if it had happened here. The tabloids would love it! Press coverage here has been reasonably evenhanded, apart from local computerworld describing Jon as a criminal. BTW, I have still not understood the logic behind confiscating his Mobile Phone. Martin
In the UK, it is fine to play cd's DVD's "for private exhibition" just like in the usa...
So, my question is, being in the limelight today, in a month or so no one will remember you. What drugs will you use to combat the loneliness and despair of "I was once famous" syndrome?
Well, we've mirrored DeCSS up to wazzo, and written editorials, and generally sturred people up. What would you recommend the open source community do in order to be of help, both in your individual case and in the larger fight over DVD encryption itself?
subject.
You might wish to have your lawyer review any answers here
/.: So, who wrote which parts of DeCSS?
/.: Do you think the MPAA could have handled this differently?
/.: So how did you break the encryption?
/.: Do you plan on developing DeCSS further?
I can see the interview now...
JJ: No comment.
JJ: Umm, no comment.
JJ: No comment.
JJ: No comment.
etc.
1/30/2000 LibMPEG2-1.1 is out. XMovie-1.3 is out. DVD support in XMovie is finally completed so now you can watch DVDs on a Linux box, completely in software.
looks like a complete DVD solution is out for linux. Is this using DeCSS?
> Legally, the keys and encryption are (i believe) the intelectual property of the MPAA (or someone related)
"intellectual property" is a term used to confuse the issue and justify extending copyright laws far beyond their original intent.
The U.S. recognizes copyrights, patents, and trademarks under law. "CSS" might be a trademark, so Jon might have violated the trademark by naming his program "DeCSS". The encryption was not patented, so he did not infringe any patents. And the encryption cannot be copyrighted, because you cannot copyright mathematical algorithims.
That just leaves the keys. First of all, you don't need the keys anyway because if you have a DVD disc, you can generate every key in about 30 minutes on a fast Pentium, with no other knowledge.
Secondly, the keys are just numbers.
49809837443
That might be one of the keys. Or maybe it is not. But to claim that the key is some kind of secret that they own eternal rights to is ridiculous; they are in effect claiming that they own the rights to "secret numbers".
The real issue is that they used the same key on EVERY DVD EVER MADE, so they can never change it. That's why they don't want the information to get out. I don't feel the government owes them any special protection in this regard. They don't deserve protection from their own cluelessness.
> By cracking the keys - i.e., by the making of DeCSS - you may be violating their property,
> regardless of your intentions (which were good, i agree).
You might be violating their property if you broke into their house and stole their DVD player. The defendents never did any such thing. They bought a DVD player and took it apart to figure out how it worked.
If the MPAA or the DVDCCA didn't want people figuring out how DVDs work, they never should have sold them any players or DVD movies in the first place.
Period.
> It's like breaking into someone's home (by whatever means, violent or nonviolent) to steal or
> copy something of theirs that you feel you should have.
Nope. See above. They used their own property (movies and a DVD player) in a manner in which they saw fit. Now, maybe, if they had actually copied DVDs and started selling them and giving them away you could attempt to draw an analogy to "stealing", but nothing like that ever took place.
> Since they're still the creaters/owners of the encryption, it's their right to determine who has
> access to the keys.
Yes, it is their right. And guess what they did? THEY SOLD THE KEYS TO EACH AND EVERY PERSON IN THE ENTIRE WORLD WHO BOUGHT A DVD DISC OR PLAYER. They sold each and every key every time they sold a movie. They are just trying to abuse semantics to make you believe that this did not happen, when it fact it did.
So, do you ever get to see all these cool -1 posts, or does Slashdot keep those away from you and only show you the "good" ones?
BS. First: DVDs are multistandard with both iso9660 and udf. Linux were able to read iso9660 for some long time now. Second: a udf driver for linux was available long time before DeCSS was published. I was involved with the development of DVD under linux at that time and of course i was able to read my DVDs. after all decss helped the linux development as the source was released somewhen, but this was not the initial target. instead decss was a binary source which were using gpl'd source (the authentification code developed by derek fawcus). this can be read in the archives of the livid-mailinglist. it stays true: decss wasn't meant for helping linux. read the livid-mailinglist-archives, you will find some clear signs of jon johansens ignorance and arrogance there.
I am wondering what your plans are for a countersuit. I am really worried about this whole situation in the view of privacy issues, and I think there should be put some effort into adressing the case. If the police had gotten information from you about the identity of the other hackers, their lives might have been affected (most likely negatively) in a big way, as a result of the police acting wrongfully. I find it important that this is something økokrim need to be held responsible for.
TN
What did the cops take from you, and do you have any protection under privacy laws? (For private emails and whatever else they searched on your computer)
I remember a quote Linus had in an interview a while ago. They were talking about Linus becoming famous, and he said something like "yes well I still don't have 15 year old girls throwing their underwear at me. I think the 15 year old geek inside my is still kind of disappointed about that."
:). Though I'd imagine having 15 year old girls throwing underwear at you could put a strain on a marriage.
:)
Poor Linus
BTW if someone can find a link to the exact quote, I'd appreciate it
Not to play up the age card, but I for one was very surprised to learn that a 16 year old achieved such a mature bit of hacking. So my questions are:
:)
...and finally, what else do you do besides code? As important as what you've done is, I'd frankly like to hear about the other aspects of who you really are besides the computer stuff. I think it'd be interesting to shed some light on what other geeks do with their time when they aren't geeking out.
- What got you started down the road to geekdom and when?
- At 16 you've ignited a powder keg of controversy on issues ranging from property ownership, censorship, software platform independence and the need for greater separation of business and state. How does it feel to have such fame and how are you handling the pressures? Any tricks up your sleeve before you hit adulthood (18 y. o. here in the US)?
- How is your family handling this? Are they supportive? Not so? Be sure to sit them down and let them know, in very clear terms, that you have a huge community of the brightest minds supporting you and that regardless of consequneces, you have done a Good Thing (tm).
-
Bart G
I like this questions, because as far as i followed all the development, DeCSS was never
meant to be helping the Linux development, but
more to help making "backups" of DVDs on VideoCDs.
This may sound unfair, but it is the harsh truth. In fact this guy here even denied giving out the sourcecode of DeCSS for helping the Linux Community (yes, its true) - he gave it only to *one* person under a special license.
All the 'we just wanted to play DVDs unter linux' is nothing more than a well-working PR campaign to help protecting some people who just wanted to break copyright.
Although i don't think that Jon should be threatened as hard as he is now by the MPAA, he shouldn't on the other don't made a saint without questions like the one above.
Its true, DeCSS was windows and binary only. This couldn't help linux. Face the truth: There is only one reason for reading out DVDs under Windows: Recompressing it as MPEG1/VCD and burn it on a CD, and this is what 99.9% of all DeCSS-Users are doing.
With that in mind, I'm curious about what lessons we all can learn from this. Specifically, assuming that someone were about to do something similar, what would be the best way to avoid being prosecuted?
The easy and obvious answer is to do so anonymously (which begs the question of the best anonymous means to do so). But I'm wondering about the situation where one didn't want to do so anonymously. Are there any viable defensive strategies here?
Finally, thanks for your efforts. We are all in debt to you.
It seems like the MPAA has just about unlimited amounts of cash, and I'm guessing you don't. Do you have somebody taking care of funding your defense (i.e., the EFF), or can I send some money to a legal defense fund for you?
Hi Jon; When reading the popular press one gets the impression that you were charged numerous vioaltions of the law. What exactly have you been charged with?
Jon:
d ev/2000-January/002777.html )
Gregory Maxwell made a very interesting comment on the LiViD mailing list last week:
> Just because wired said it happend one way, that doesn't indicate that it
> didn't occure some other way entirely.
>
> A few days (perhaps a week or so) after the Xing CSS and key codes were
> cracked, someone released a no-player-key-needed method of finding CSS
> title keys and thus deriving all the player keys without ever knowing one.
>
> If you believe such an ingenious feat of cryptoanalysis occured in such a
> short time, I believe I have a bridge to sell you.
>
> The 'xing' crack was irrelevent. Because of inherit weeknesses in CSS
> (beyond it's 40bit key, which are too technical to discuss here now) we
> needed zero player keys.
>
> The CSS code has been out there for well over a year. I think people were
> waiting for the right time to make it public (i.e. cryptoanalysis that
> defeated the need to have a master key at all; and the death of DIVX),
> some moron decided to jump the gun about two weeks too earlier, and
> released the Xing player key to make it work.
>
> Had they waited another week the cryptoanalysis would have been done and
> NO vendors player key would have been required.
>
> As it stands, the Xing key may have been artificially derrived (say from
> the IBM key) and it was coincidental (or worse) that the key turned out to
> be Xings.
>
> So to be clear: Xing's players weaknesses (was it actually weak, or are we
> taking MoREs word for it) is irrelevent. CSS code was out before that
> player existed. The CSS algo is fundmentally broken (no playerkey
> required key recovery in 2^16 operations in 2^26 bytes memory) well beyond
> it's short key legnth.
>
> It would have been possible for someone to use such an attack (or another,
> say IBM's player key) and generate that Xing key without ever analyzing
> Xing itself.
( see entire comment at: http://livid.on.openprojects.net/pipermail/livid-
Do you have any response to this? The crux of the lawsuit in California is that they claim it is illegal to reverse engineer a program if a dialog box tells you not to. They claim that Xing was reverse engineered because their player key was supposedly the first one found.
In the light of Gregory's e-mail, is this true? Was Xing involved at all? Or is that an unsubstantiated lie from the DVDCCA?
Were you a "moron" for releasing your program before the means to decode CSS without ANY player keys was discovered?
Now that /. is frequently quoted, browsed and felt up by the media,... we should start acting like responsible people and do the right thing. The Natalie Portman crap, the Troll proclamations, the First Post, .. please make it all go away. Rob, Hemos, Andover, you are the only people who can make this happen so what are you waiting for?
Me personally, I'm not trying to win any popularity contests so my site will REQUIRE cookies, a valid login, and I'm even thinking of having mandatory fixed IP address.
The real damage from this unchecked AC activity shines bright when you see what happens as the linked CNN interview shows. The media was quick to run to the /. post and I'm sure it took all of about 2 seconds to find a post from some AC spouting off about fuck the law. Of course the plaintiffs eat that stuff up.
Somebody, please do something before /. turns to total crap.
Aaron Newsome
Alex Bischoff
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Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
In other words, are they more worried about forbidding the illegal copies, or are they more worried about forbidding the technology itself from citizens?
Anyone else think it's scary that people are quoting Slashdot comments, probably out of context, in a court of law, attempting to present some kind of "accurate representation" of the community and its opinions?
:P
Man, if I was the other lawyer in that case, I'd read a few "Naked and Petrified" comments and destroy that "Anonymous Coward" guys testimony.
No, I know, they could just look at my user number, and make me an "expert witness"!
I guess my question for Jon would be "Do you think tactics like using posts from one user, out of context, from an online forum should be allowed as testimony to represent the views of the community at large?"
Geez, I like DNA testing much better compared to this crap. With DNA testing, I'm 99.9999% certain as to someone's identity. With Slashdot, I've got the other 0.0001% certain about their identity, that they mean what they say, that they have any idea what they're talking about... etc., etc.
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Are you (still) surprised that many people thought that you wrote DeCSS?
Several posts to the livid mailing list have made the claim that you weren't responsible for writing decss, that you weren't involved in the cryptoanalysis of the encryption algorithm, and that you are otherwise totally unrelated to the LiViD project.
My questions are:
Are you a fraud? Are you simply enjoying the prestige of being the "guy who broke the billion dollar CSS algorithm" too much to admit you don't know the first thing about cryptoanalysis?
Do people who fawn all over you, asking where your "legendary skills" came from and wanting to grow up and become just as cool as you, make you sick to the stomach and/or nauseas?
Do you think the release by MoRE of a product which (arguably) was intended for nefarious purposes has harmed the perfectly legal and well intentioned LiViD project? Do you feel ashamed?
Are you in fact using the LiViD project as a shield to hide the reality that you are in fact a lowlife copyright violator? Aren't you disgusted with yourself for ruining LiViD's name like this?
It seems like, with one of the primary arguments behind deCSS being the MPAA wanting to monopolize the DVD player market, that Linux hackers actually don't want a DVD player. If a binary Linux DVD player surfaced which supported decryption and the MPAA didn't ban it, that would show that the MPAA wasn't interested in monopolizing the market and be the end of deCSS source code. So we see a natural reaction: no Linux DVD players capable of decryption being mentioned anywhere or linked by anyone yet lots of argument that deCSS should be legal because if it was incorporated in some fictitious player that we don't want to mention, that the MPAA would surely ban it.
I was never here and you never read this.
If the MPAA allows a binary player to have decrytion, the conspiracy theory goes out the window and kiss the deCSS source code goodbye. Proving that the MPAA wouldn't ban a Linux DVD player if one existed is exactly what the community wants to avoid.
The answer is: open Linux DVD theaters in European resterants and bars!
Is this legal? In the US, this would be classified as illegal exhibition of copyrighted works. Bars/restaurants in the US can't just go rent movies from the local Blockbuster and play them for their customers.
Do countries in Europe just not have similar laws?
In the US, it's "private, home exhibition" that's allowed, which means I can throw a party and have music and movies going without a problem, since it's a personal venue, not commercial.
I'm sure that's how it's interpreted in the UK too, even if the law is technically phrased to prohibit what you suggest.
allowng anyone who wants to bring in a DVD play it.
Not trying to start an argument or anything, but this would still be illegal. Bars are commercial establishments, and even if they just provided the TV and player and "let" customers bring in their own movies, it's still illegal, except now the person bringing the movie can be prosecuted along with the bar.
Now I'm not saying a bar couldn't get away with doing something like this, but once the MPAA (or whoever) caught on, you can bet they'd take action.
Do you feel that your case is being handled in a particularly unusual way and, if so, how so?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Why are they making this out to be a piracy issue when it's clear that it's not?
It's this type of weighted question that really irks me about Slashdot readers. It's analogous to Jim Gray's line of questioning towards Pete Rose at the annoucement of the Century Team (where he basically tried to pressure Rose into admitting he was guilty or apologizing for something Rose doesn't think he's guilty of).
The MPAA is making this out to be a piracy issue because to them it is a piracy issue. It doesn't matter to them that you or any other Slashdot reader doesn't think it's a piracy issue. To them it is a piracy issue, because whether or not the program was intended to do so, the fact remains that it does make piracy easier. There's no getting around that. Now it's up to the courts to decide whether it really is a piracy issue and whether or not the MPAA has a valid complaint. You can argue that all you want.
I'm sorry, I don't want to answer questions that are going to someone else, but honestly, this is completely weighted. You're asking a question that automatically prejudges an answer and also requires that the person take a side they may or may not agree with. Jon may have a different answer than me, but I'm still of the opinion that blatant "leading" such as this should be pointed out immediately, especially since they get pushed up so high by moderators who share many of the same biases.
And that's before we get to the fact that your asking Jon to shed light on motives that he has had no part in shaping.
There have been articles on Slashdot about the increasing use of Slashdot for mainstream articles, looks at the open source movement, etc. Apparently that has yet to sink in. Believe it or not, someone actually reads your posts, and when you say "fuck the law", that can (and has) been used against you.
I think the DVD case (among others) will be very important for the future of the Internet. It will decide reverse-engineering, home use, encryption, the reach of major companies (with major lobbying power), and the rights of consumers. And I would like to see strong encryption, the freedom to reverse-engineer, etc. But, this will only come if we play it smart. Support your cause without turning into 9 year old potty mouths. Don't give the opposition ammo.
Given that Johansen is accused of a crime against US laws (not Norwegian laws), it is possible that he will be tried in a US court. Will the Norwegian government pay for a lawyer? And will a state-funded lawyer stand any chance against the sort of star team that the MPAA could assemble with petty cash?
let me add one to this...
What is your opinion of the MPAA and the United States DVD Copy Control Association?
This one goes up to 11....
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
This may sound trivial, but I think it warrants some consideration. Do you think you would have caused the uproar if your software had been called something like "playdvd" or "watchdvd" instead of decss? The latter would imply to an outside observer that it is something specifically designed to defeat css whereas the first two would seem "more legitimate" in my opinion. Comments?
Ragarding the US court case, it sounded to me like the judge said that the only reason that the code is illegal is that it was obtained in violation of the click license. So all we need to do to make the trade secret invalid is to get a reverse engineered program by a legal means. One method that may work is by getting the source code from others who legally got it from the court documents before they were sealed, but it is questionable whether the judge would allow that.
It occurs to me that the other possibility would be to decompress the Xing program from the installation CD by hand, so that we can copy the DLLs and EXEs to our hard drives without clicking on the license. Then we are free to reverse engineer it and can duplicate the steps to come up with a legal DeCSS.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
You live in Norway, where lifetime blacklisting is both a legal and acceptable business practice. Certainly you had to know that there would be repercussions from releasing DeCSS, yet you did it anyways. There is a very real possiblity that you might find yourself on such a list - despite my and other's opinions to the contrary, quite a few pointy-haired bosses out there think of you as a punk hacker kid who will cost a lot of "honest" businessmen a lot of money.
I chanced upon a guy in #linux who claims to run a software shop in Norway where you applied for a job and he flatly rejected you. Basically, he said that anyone who was dumb enough to risk a lifetime blacklist was too dumb to work for him. I have no idea about the verity of this story, but the rationale behind what he said makes sense - people who display a callous disregard for "the rules" don't often fit into the corporate culture. My questions are whether or not you have felt any of the backlash like that described above, and also if you now regret undertaking this project. Sure, you will live in infamy as the guy who cracked CSS, but at the same time you may have jeopardized your employment possiblities in your home country - and you're only 16.
--
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Being famous has a lot of sex appeal, especially when there's a naughty twist to it ("I'm a bad hacker boy, baby!") So, even though you're not aiming for world domination like Linus, have you experienced the scantly clad teenage female fans phenonmenon yet? :PPP
it's been suggested that someone in germany did the hack, not yourself. who did what?
in another interview you were asked why decss was written for windows when the idea was to make a player for windows. you stated it was made for windows while linux's ability to deal with the dvd fs was being sorted. why didn't you just copy the vob file? (not enough disk space?) did the computers the police took have linux versions of the decss code?
lastly i think it would be good to get a bitof tech clarification since i know next to nothing about dvd's. say a person was able to decrypt the vob. what exactly could they do with the resulting file? just watch the movie? or are the value added features on dvd's contained in the vob? perhaps a quick run through of dvd tech,or a link to it would be enlightening to those of us not up on dvd.
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
First of all, the license fee is not $5000. In fact, we don't know what the license fee is, because DVD CCA refuses to disclose that information to parties they don't regard as "credible."
Second: Taking apart your lawfully obtained, personal property and figuring out how it works is perfectly lawful and ethical. Period. Shrinkwrap "licenses" are monsterously unethical and have no legal force. No amount of posturing or whining by wealthy media executives will change this.
Finally, I would urge you to read the Hoy Reply document, which contains as Exhibit B the full text of DVD CCA's contract. I think you'll agree that such terms as they demand are an anathema to the Open Source ethic.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
The delay of DVD Audio was triggered by Jon's code release, yes, but as he stated in the interview, there was already software that allowed you to rip DVDs. His program just got more publicity. And you can't blame someone for getting publicity.
what do you think about Xing being the cause of all this, do you think that they should be prosecuted/fined b/c they were the original reason for your being able to find the solution to the puzzle?
Assuming Norways legal system works as in Sweden, this is simply not possible. "Deals" are explicitly disallowed in Swedish law. You can't get any "favours" by cooperating, because it is assumed that the same crime should always give the same punishment ("everybody is equal to the law", something like that).
Although I hear lately that the courts have been found to do this kind of stuff in semi-secret, even though it's illegal. There is an investigation going on, don't know what they will find, though.
As of now, it is showing that I've transferred about 8,348MB both ways since 10/21/1999 (roughly 3 months ago) - 7,542MB down and 806MB up. This may seem insignificant, until you realize that only about 5% of the time, if that, was my modem working at full capacity.
--
If you paid a spot of attention, you'll have noted that the DVD license states that it's licensed only for use on authorized playback equipment.
And your Linux boxen isn't authorized, of course.
So how do you, or any CSS hacker, figure you have any sort of legal leg to stand on?
--
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
It's not a question of erasing all copies of the source - that is impossible. Rather what do you think the reprecussions of this mirroring will be? As of yet, nobody has knocked on my door asking me to stop mirroring...
Do you have any plans to talk to media outlets that will listen to your side of the story? Do you KNOW of any such outlets? I believe the word needs to spread to everyone who has ever touched a DVD movie, the net, or even a computer. The only problem with that is it is SO SEXY to portray people like you in a mischevious light, and to make you out to be the bad guy. WE know that's not the case, but every medium and their company (save Slashdot) paints this as a "they-want-to-copy-movies" situation. How do you think we should educate the masses, and through which mediums?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
Your response is no less weighted: "The MPAA is making this out to be a piracy issue because to them it is a piracy issue." We know this is their public position, but it seems hard to put together even a compelling prima facie argument for this position. Digitally-distributed content (as CDs) have been around for a while, and the music companies are richer than ever. Ditto software, despite minimal copy protection. Why are movies different? The MPAA has yet to answer this question, even in a cursory way.
OTOH, the encryption system that is virtually useless for combatting all but the most unlikely piracy is very effective at controlling the market for players. And there are boatloads of compelling financial motives for the movie publishers to want control of a market besides content distribution. They have read the writing on the music industry's wall -- the business of packaging content physically for distribution and selling those units is going to be a lot less profitable in the coming years.
Assuming that the MPAA believes it's own position is assuming that the MPAA is stupid, which I'm not yet willing to do. It even further beggars belief to suggest that their system for "protecting against piracy," while pitifully ineffective at curbing piracy, is "accidentally" a cunningly effective system for controlling the DVD player market. It had to be by design.
So, it is "clear" that this is not "a piracy issue". The issue is where the rights of the consumers lie in using products they have purchased, and where the rights of the intellectual property owners end. You may argue that the poster's question is self-evident, or a waste of Mr. Johanssen's interview time, but it is not weighted. It is self-evident to anyone who reviews the facts.
phil
Notice that it says: "offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic" but then in (C) it says it must be "marketed" to violate the law. According to my dictionary "market" means "offer for sale". Posting information on a personal website is not "marketing" in any sense or usage of the word that I'm aware of. But printing it in a book and selling it might be.
Note the or in the statute. That gives me the impression that technology meeting any one of (A), (B), or (C) is illegal. Whether the code is sold in book form or not, it still violates (A) and (B), which is more than enough to be unlawful.
Not that I agree with the law, mind you.
Does he agree with your stance on DVD encryption, and the need for software players for Linux?
I've seen an interview with both Jon and his dad, so I can espond to this..
Yes. His father agrees with him. He understands the situation; that DeCSS was neccessary to make it possible to view DVDs on Jon's computer.
He didn't mention Linux in particular, but he said that it should be possible to view the DVDs on ones own computer.
I have noted for quite a few time before DeCSS that DVD piracy is already a serious industry. Methods range from "kitchen tricks" running from software hacks and ending in "fake" hardware (some even go to produce special chips).
:) on you contacts with those "defending" MPAA. So what do you think? Why you? And why DeCSS which clearly is a small rock in the Ocean? Do you think that this has only to do with the fact that they what to "show and hang" someone or anything else? Or that, by some reason, that don't want to expand DVD market from a small "feud" of OSes or software systems (that ocasionally play only in a few OSes)?
You have had already some "experience"
What amount of parental and family support have you been getting?
Amongst your immediate inner circle of friends, would you say that whether they are computer knowledgeable or not has affected the amount of support/disapprocal they displayed towards yourself?
--
" It's a ligne Maginot-in-the-sky "
--
--
"Insert witty quote here."
How does it feel to know you've brought a multi-billion dollar organization to its knees? What are your plans for the future? Do you have any desire to continue with MoRE?
Funk masta' K.
Poopdick.
Living in Scandinavia, I know that there is always a debate about the good or bad of the "americanifiation" of our countries. Has there, to your knowledge, been raised any such questions in the media in your case, considering that American economical interests has been allowed to so strongly influence the Norwegian government's actions?
Since the police took your computer, I suppose they have charged you with some kind of crime. What is it, and do you think that the recent Swedish ruling could be used in your favour?
You're quoted on the LiViD site as saying:
In reading your interviews, I've been continually impressed by your poise and intelligence in dealing with the media. Certainly, the mainstream media have distorted this story even more than most technical stories, but your efforts to get the correct information out have been laudable. You've certainly done a lot better than I could imagine myself doing at 16. Are you certain you want to avoid the media when you have such potential as a spokesman?
And why did they choose you as a target?
------------------
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You may like my a cappella music
I would assume that this may cost you some money.
If so, where can we send our contributions to
your defense fund?
--Orange
1/ What does norwegian law say about writing software to circumvent copy protection?
European law (Council Directive 91/250/EEC of 14 May 1991 on the legal protection of computer programs) explicitly authorizes reverse engineering of programs to ensure compatibility:
Decompilation 1. The authorization of the rightholder shall not be required where reproduction of the code and translation of its form within the meaning of Article 4 (a) and (b) are indispensable to obtain the information necessary to achieve the interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, provided that the following conditions are met:[...]
I am not a lawyer and I don't know whether this applies to your cause or not.
2/ What do you think of the fact that some obscure Californian courts is prosecuting foreigners for alleged intellectual property offenses committed abroad, possibly legally according to the law of their home country?
in a word, horseshit.
the mpaa is trying to kill this for the same reasons that the riaa killed DAT tapes (for home use), money.
if everyone can stick a dvd drive in their computer and run a free linux dvd player, they lose money, plain and simple.
it's already been pointed out that although DeCSS makes piracy marginally easier, it'll have little or no effect on whatever piracy may go on. the cost and time consumption of dvd piracy will make it prohibitive for the time being. when the time comes that dvds can be pirated cheaply and (relatively) quickly the mpaa is going to have about as much luck stopping it as the riaa had trying to stop mp3's and the software industry in general has had trying to stop warez.
you don't give the mpaa NEARLY enough credit...they are far more intelligent than you have made them out to be. the simple truth of it is, they can see their monopoly on dvd hardware and software slipping away and they're terrified.
-dk
-dk
Dream with the feathers of angels stuffed beneath your head.
First, I applaud you and the way you have stood up against the indignities you have suffered.
This is something that has been running around my mind since the beginning of this. Would it not have been easier to simply claim that you discovered the encryption scheme by accident? It it possible that you might have simply stumbled upon it while playing with a DVD. Since it seems the entire case revolves around the possible "illegal" reverse engineering to Xing's product, you could claim you never used it, you just happend upon the encryption one day.
Sounds stupid, but they would have to prove otherwise to have a case, right?
Finkployd
When is the ABC interview going to be on? Is it going to be on the nightly news, or on 20/20 or Nightline or something?
We heard ABC was coming to see Johansen last Thursday, but I didn't see anything about it on the nightly news.
Now the Linuxworld article made it sound like ABC was coming yesterday (Monday). So what's the deal? When can we expect to see this on TV?
Preventive War is like committing suicide for fear of death. - Otto Von Bismarck
Something that gets me is this. If the companies of the U.S. want to prosecute Jon, and they want to hold him accountable under US law, does involvement in the US justice (:P) system also grant you rights under the Bill of Rights. Have you been approached with offers of U.S. legal defense and right proclamations? btw (disclaimer *IANAL* ) It seems like the MPAA wanted to stretch their long-arm-of-the-law just a bit.
Keep heart man..there are forces at work for you.
you never lose in ure razorblade shoes......Beck-Hotwax
Do you agree that their real fear might be raw video from DVDs being modified and republished?
Nothing to do with it.
Their immediate goal is make sure the artificial barriers in the DVD market stay in place. i.e. Currently, you can't watch a U.S. DVD on a player that was built for the Japanese market. Jack Valenti and his band of merry movie execs divided the world into six regions. By releasing the same movie at different times to different regions, they can maximize profit and minimize pirating (so... Hong Kong gets movies last)
Their longer term goal is to tell you when and where you can watch your media by controlling every play back technology. They want to take away your right to format-shift your media. They want to undo fair use.
Jon... whatever you do, don't admit to any wrong-doing. If you allow them to bully you into signing something that isn't true, it could be serious blow to us here in the U.S.
-- Kinesis, Defendant #2 in the DVD CCA case.
There are some win proggies that claim to rip the dvds. I didnt try them myself, but can be found on places like dvd.da.ru. Why is no one after these? Have these oficialy licensed dvd playback technology and just added the rip capability?
So Jon, do you feel that the industry is after you just because you made your findings and source freely available on the net?
This might not be a good idea, at least under US law:
The Copyright Act, Title 17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(2), provides that:
[n]o person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that:
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.
Notice that it says: "offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic" but then in (C) it says it must be "marketed" to violate the law. According to my dictionary "market" means "offer for sale". Posting information on a personal website is not "marketing" in any sense or usage of the word that I'm aware of. But printing it in a book and selling it might be.
How about finding some legal eagles to interview about this stuff, especially the international jurisdiction aspects?
Is he still allowed access to a computer? Supervised?
-- 100% MS-Free as of 4-4-1999, 11:47:38 PST. "The lapdance is always better when the stripper is cryin'" Free Kevin,
There is more at stake than simply a DVD player for x86 Linux. A lot of people around here would be satisfied with that, but some of us want more. I'm glad there's no licensed DVD player for Linux, since it lets the rest of us have the large and powerful Linux community as an ally in this particular fight.
A binary DVD player would not be nearly as flexable as an open source solution, both in terms of overall application quality, and portability. There are other minority operating systems and processors than Linux and x86, and $5000 (or $50000 or whatever the license really costs) would be a lot harder to scrape up, and still only result with a closed source player that might not ever get bugfixes and other maintenance.
Standards are the key. True and open standards are the most desirable, but if you have to live with a defacto standards like DVD, then they at least need to be well documented so that anyone can implement it. Imagine how The Internet would have been if TCP/IP were a secret that required a license, or how the web would be if HTTP were a secret. Many great projects would not have ever been started.
I don't want to buy a DVD if I ultimately have to depend on another party's mercy for permission to read/use it. Freedom matters.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
How long did it take you to reverse engineer CSS?
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I would imagine that the guys over at xmovie would have/will incorporate deCSS with their current DVD player. From their web page, they say that it can already play non-encrypted DVDs, it would seem that it would be a rather minor step to include deCSS
The basic sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of UCBerkeley grad students was still the core of BIND. --PV
It's obvious to me (and most people here on /.) that the intention for DeCSS was to have a decoder to allow fair use of one's own DVD's. As you (and others) have stated there exists machinery to copy DVD's regardless of whether DeCSS is used or not. Of course here in the USA the Digital Millenium Copyright act says that anyone who writes a program to defeat "copy protection" is violating the copyright outright. How does this USA law affect your legal battle?
Your father was also arrested when you were.
Did he know that you put DeCSS on his server, and what that software did?
Does he agree with your stance on DVD encryption, and the need for software players for Linux?
Gerv
No. Jon's decryption algorithm is written by one person. But it will need development support from other people to build a fully operational DVD player.
Precisely. That's why I said "This is not a "when are you going to complete your player program" question." I specifically phrased my question in the passive ("player actually being released?") rather than the active ("you release the player?") since I figure, especially with the legal and media distractions, he probably won't be able to focus too much on coding in the near future.
Oh, and by the way Linux (i.e. the kernel) is not written by one person. Linus estimates the code to be about 10% his nowadays.
Jon, I am 100% behind you, and cringe at the distortions of your efforts in the media. It is entirely clear that DeCSS has been developed in order to watch DVD videos on linux boxen, not as a means to "piracy". However, this point could be driven home a lot more effectively if there were actually a DeCSS-based linux DVD player. In understand that even with DeCSS, there are some technical problems getting DVDs to play on linux.
This is not a "when are you going to complete your player program" question. If I were a coder, I would help. My question is simply when do you see the first player actually being released? What are the remaining technical difficulties to getting DVD playback to work on linux, now that the CSS hurdle has been cleared?
They have contact info; you have to call to get it, so far as I can tell, but I got it. Use it wisely.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
..If you had the chance to go back in time, would you do it again?
Your math is way off. With you numbers, it would take about 162.5 hours, which is 6.7 days. Not short, but possible. I have downloaded ISO CD images before over modem. In "real time", it took about 2 days (since I didn't DL 24/7) but downloading mass quantities is indeed quite possible.
Ouch. Suffice to say I downloaded that ISO over good old U.S. flat rate local phone lines
How have the crypto laws, ie the ones the gonvernment trys to enforce which in a round and about way state that all keys must be possible for the gonvernment to crack, play a part into the CSS not being able to produce a key in which a person is capable to crack with nothing more then a standard machine, ie pentium class or slightly better ?
Are these type of restrictions in fact enabling this type of behavior from the IT community?
Does the CSS people ever plan to try and support a non-windows communtiy, by maybe providing a posix based binary or something?
"What do you do with the mad that you feel when you feel so mad you could bite?" - Mister Rogers
Here we go again.
First, you do have a compiled copy, you nitwit. Someone, somewhere, compiled it. And they happened to compile it under Win32. Which means you have a runnable binary. Simple, see?
I never said it didn't copy DVDs to your hard drive. I said it was a huge file [10GB-16GB], not that it was impossible.
And I NEVER said anything about it being "for Windows". I said it that DeCSS was source code, not a Windows or a Linux program. Can you understand that? Not a "program" but source code.
And that's great that you would bet money on a player being available. There's one out already.
Frankly, I've already wasted far to many keystrokes on you. Read, learn, but until then, go away.
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
It's misconceptions like this which cause problems.
DeCSS is not a Windows program, or a Linux program, it's source code. The reason that you have a Windows version is because somebody compiled it under that platform, not because someone wrote for Windows.
And he didn't write a DVD *player* at all, he wrote a tool to decrypt the DVD movie so it could be watched using a seperate player, something that could not be done before.
And you must be some kind of bad-ass k00l m0-f0 if you can copy DVDs using deCSS. The current DVD media won't allow for it, and only one movie would fit on today's hard drives.
So, to sum up. No, it's not a Windows program. No, it doesn't copy DVDs. Yes, it's needed to watch DVDs under Linux. And the court case is still going to be a pain in the ass because of people like you, spewing half-truths and total lies.
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
Not a necessary question for the interview.
.. 78 ... watched TV and asked me about him. (I'm the local "computerfreak" who knows "everything" about internet, where I live :)) Even that old bloke supports Jon ;)
The support for him in the norwegian media has been POSITIVE. Almost exclusivly positive.
People like Gisle Hannemyr, Tron Oegrim and others (computer-dinosaurs in norway) is supporting his case. EFN (Electronic Frotnier Norway) is supporting his case. People like me has handed out flyers at the university.
My neighbour, which is
In other words, most normal people support him.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
Non-necessari question, as the media has reported - EFF takes care of the defence-fund. They're getting him a top-notch lawyer.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
I disagree. It cannot be proved that Jon - or more correctly - the person that reverse-engineered the program - ever clicked 'yes' to any agreement.
Therefore, it should really be a non-issue.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
I think the .. uhm .. "criminal-lower-age" (uh, how the heck do I translated "kriminelle lavalder" to english?:) in Norway is 15 years. In other words, from the age of 15 - you CAN be hit by the full force of the law. In reality , you are not. But you CAN be.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
It has been noted in several articles that your case was mentioned in the Norwiegen Parliament.
Have they done anything about the treatement you, and your father received from the Police? Or have they decided to sit on the and let the MPAA run the show of things?
I can answer that question for you. The Norwegian Parliament doesn't bug into police affairs. The case was brought before the parliament - with requests to review the laws. Not to comment on the specific case.
If I understood the press right, The question was if the laws should allow more reverse engineering and more freedom than they already do.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
If I understand correctly, the reason DeCSS was originally written for windows was because there was no DVD playback software for Linux, and you have to have SOME way to test. So you write for a platform where there is a player, and test the decryption by playing the decrypted video back. Once you know that works, you begin writing the player code for the OS in question.
Read http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/01/31/johan sen.interview.idg/index.html for an interview with Linux World. This will answer some of your questions before he is asked a repeat question.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Nonsense. DeCSS has nothing to do with copying movies. If I myself was interested in copying dvd's and had the hardware to do it, decrypting them first would be a terrible waste of my time. DeCSS is about letting people who don't have access to proprietary players enjoy the dvd's that they paid for. In particular, this includes the world of linux users who have been neglected entirely by producers of dvd-viewing software.
j. scott olsson
MPAA wanted to protect copyrighted works but CSS, intentially or otherwise, provided the means to control the DVD player market. When you negotiate a settlement with them, would you propose an alternative win-win solution, other than asking them release a free player for operating system/platform in the market? Would you ask them for consulation fees?
If someone reverse-engineered one of your patented trade-secrets without first contacting you, and the vehicle for duplicating this feat was mirrored all over the Internet, how would you respond?
First, I'm another person to add to the long list of people who are in your corner.
My question is this: Did it cross your mind, before you posted the code in question on your web page, to put some sort of a legal disclaimer that people were forced to read before accessing the code that explained that you were postig the code to make DVD players, not copiers?
IANAL, but I bet if you had it would be helping your case right now.
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
First of all, my condolences on your arrest and treatment at the behest of my former homeland's authorities. Many people outside of the U.S. don't realize just how important money is there and what lengths the authorities will go to to protect profits. For what it's worth, your pain will serve as a wake up call to many.
On another topic, I have only seen an object code release of DeCSS. In 20-20 hindsight, had you ever thought about releasing the source? A source release of DeCSS would have likely splintered into a couple of hundred ports and versions rendering moot any prosecution of a single individual.
Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
William Shakespeare
How do you feel about the fact that the Norwegian police essentially played the part of hired goon to a large corporate conglomerate? It's bad enough when this happens in the United States, but the fact that the Norwegians did this has to surprise you quite a bit.
-- atomly
It's bad enough when this happens in the United States, but the fact that the Norwegians did this has to surprise you quite a bit.
Why is this? Is Norway supposed to be a bastion of free speech or something? I would assume the MPAA has as much power in other countries as it does in America, so I don't really see why this would be so surprising.
___________________
rooooar
In norway you can get a lawyer payed by the state. And iirc, the eff has also offered to pay.
Do you think region codes are affecting the price of DVDs in Norway? I know it's hard to give a universal reference for prices, but maybe you can answer it this way: if you bought the same movie on both DVD and VHS, what would the price ratio be between them? We can compare that to the ratio in our own regions, to see whether there is any predictable variation.
And by the way - what region is Norway in, and what other countries are in the same region.
--
It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Where did your original programming experience come from? I'm speaking in terms of your ability to reverse engineer the encryption and apply the key in a useful mannor.
Justen Stepka
like the parent says (just want to give it more attention) is that under Linux when DeCSS was started, support for the DVD file system was not there. So rather than sit and do nothing, they used windows to figure out the decryption methods so that once Linux support was up to par they had support for reading DVDs and the code to do it.
Thinking you are just sixteen years old do you fear about this whole thing happening to you ? Do you think still developing the code if the trials revealead you are right ?
Do you regret distributing your work? While I'm sure you must feel proud for standing by your beliefs, is the impact on your life harsh enough that you wish you have never cracked the encryption?
I'm sure everybody here is very glad you did, but we don't have to live under such scruitiny. Thanks for keeping up the fight for what's good.
What's your favorite DVD to watch and did it have anything to do with your reason(s) for wanting to watch DVDs in linux:}
My apologies - it was knocked up fairly quickly in Excel :(
:)
Let's see. 7 KB/sec means you can get 420 KB/min or 24.6 MB/hour, or 590.625 MB/day so yes, 6 days, 18 hours, 32 mins 22.9 secs. Which is, of course, assuming conditions that never happen.
My apologies for the duff initial maths. Can't see where the problem is - I went over it a few times coming from the other direction, but this is clearly right.
Oh well...
Incidentally, let's look at what that would cost over here. Assuming you find it on an FTP site with resume so can only do this at the weekends when the calls are cheapest, you get charged 1p/min. Premier Line (cost: £6 per quarter) combined with Friends and Family can drop that down to 0.75p/min. There's also BT Together but last time I heard that saved a maximum of 70p a month or something silly so I'm not bothering with that
Anyway, in perfect conditions you're still going to take 9752.4 minutes. By my reckoning you'd have to pay £73.14 for the phone call at the least.
Once again, my apologies for getting the maths wrong, though I did check it, honest... But it's still not even slightly practical, TBH.
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
OK.
We seem to be mostly agreed that this is harassment to maintain a stranglehold over the player market. If these things are out there and NOT being pursued, our case is rather stonger.
How can we bring this to the attention of the EFF to use in their defence?
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
OK, which countries sell region-free players?
The potential problem here, though, is with electricity and output standards. You appear to be in the US - I'm in the UK. If we both bought standalone DVD players then swapped, neither would be usable. You have 525/30 NTSC with 110v AC, we have 625/25 PAL with 240v AC.
Out of interest, what makes region locking globally illegal?
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
It gets better - that's the cheapest rate with all the standard discounts.
:)
If I want to log on between 8 AM and 6 PM during the week (when I'm at home this is - right now the university pay!) it's 5p/min before discounts, 3.75 after. Daytime rate, even with discounts, that amount of use would cost you £365.70, assuming my maths is better than it was last night
1p = 1.6 US cents, roughly.
Now you see REALLY why we don't like our telecom or the regulator that allows this...
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
I have to agree about weighted questions, but...
This may well make DVD copying easier. But it's only creating one more avenue.
Let's see. If you can lay your hands on DVD mastering equipment (which seems to be a possibility for a number of firms in Hong Kong) you can just create a bit-for-bit copy. Not protected against in any way.
If you've got a video capture facility - not that uncommon, comes with most TV cards - you can grab the image THAT way and then copy it out however you want. VHS and VCD seem the popular ways. Both are possible, though you may need a descrambler box as they've done some funny things with the data output to try and mess up the equipment.
There seems to be software out there to copy direct to VCD - I've seen it referred to and I once heard someone on another machine in a lab referring to their using it. Can't find a copy to prove it, though.
Theoretically (read I'm told this is possible but research hasn't turned up any links yet) you can write a fake video driver that grabs the data on the way through and can also do what it likes with it.
Then there's DeCSS. Which will, admittedly, produce a decrypted playback stream. But you play that how? You can't burn your own DVD as DVD-R discs are sold with a section pre-burnt blank precisely to stop this. If you can get round this then you really don't need DeCSS as you can just make a bit-for-bit copy, encryption intact. And this can't exactly be traded over the net like an MP3 - the resulting file is GIGABYTES large.
Let's say 4GB for example - well, that's 4096000 KB by my arithmetic. On a 56Kb modem running at maximum possible efficiency you might get 7KB/sec. If I started downloading it now and nothing went wrong on the way, it wouldn't be finished until 23rd March next year! Assume more realistic conditions - my modem normally connects at 31,200 - and I'd be waiting until Christmas 2001.
Somewhere in the film industry there's probably someone who genuinely believes that this is copy protection. They deserve our pity. The only practical purpose this serves is maintaining a stranglehold on who can manufacture players. And I can't see that as defensible.
This suit deserves being laughed out of court. Our perpetuating the MPAA's bogus argument should be avoided, in case we inadvertently give credibility to these individuals.
Disclaimer, before I get accused of being a pirate for researching this: I don't posess a DVD drive of any form. Or any DVDs. Or any pirate VCDs or VHS cassettes I've ripped on friends' computers. I do posess a CD-RW drive, purchased so I can make backups of my work.
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
I heard that Jon wasn't the actual reverse engineer on this project. He was just the first to publish it from what I heard. According to this link, he said that he wasn't the reverese engineer.
I've been positively dumbfounded at the spin the corporate heads are putting on this. Rumor has it that Gates finally managed an erection thanks to the media coverage. His wife thanks you.
.02
My question is: I'm sure you've explained all the basics to the agressors here - that it doesn't facilitate copying, it doesn't actually break anything, the encryption doesn't protect the disc and it's too expensive to do anyways.
I just want to know what on earth they say when faced with such obvious and amazingly verifiable facts. How can they continue to accuse you of being a portal for piracy when that's so obviously not the case?
Thanks for your pains man, there are a lot of people that wouldn't go to bat for what they believe.
My
Quux26
My
Quux26
www.crashspace.net
Logically, the whole arguement is just crap.
Owning a gun does not make one a murderer.
--- A Jesus Fish eating a Darwin Fish only proves Darwin's point.
First, i want to say i'm not passing judgment or anything of the sort, i'm just sorting through all the issues surrounding this.
I understand the purpose behind DeCSS - to finally get a DVD player in Linux (and wherever else one is wanted). My question, though, is about the morality of it. Legally, the keys and encryption are (i believe) the intelectual property of the MPAA (or someone related). By cracking the keys - i.e., by the making of DeCSS - you may be violating their property, regardless of your intentions (which were good, i agree). It's like breaking into someone's home (by whatever means, violent or nonviolent) to steal or copy something of theirs that you feel you should have. Since they're still the creaters/owners of the encryption, it's their right to determine who has access to the keys. And while their not including Linux does suck (i agree!), how do you feel that what you did for DeCSS is justified?
Are "Shrink wrap" agreements enforcable in your country, and are you as a 16 year old subject to contract law? In the us, 16 year olds cannot enter into a contract, I'm wondering if it's the same with you.
Hey Rob, Thanks for that tarball!
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
How has your father handled being sucked into this situation? Does he understand and support your goal with this technology?
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
( Beta is only a state of mind )
+&x
In discussing this topic with "regualr people" (those folks who don't live and breath tech) I've found general support for the people and very little for the MPA(A).
What, IYHO, is the general reception you have felt about this issue? Have you been able to explain your position and have it understood? What are some of the stranger assumptions you have come up against?
+&x
I can answer that question for you. The Norwegian Parliament doesn't bug into police affairs. The case was brought before the parliament - with requests to review the laws. Not to comment on the specific case.
That is correct.
The parliament can not interfere with police work. The parliament, or at least a substantial number of its members, are however aware of the issues at hand here. The result is hopefully that they get their ass in motion and make a decent update of the laws.
The minister of culture did however imply that they probably would use the EU directive that is currently being hashed out as a guide. I'm not really sure if that's good or bad.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
I'd second that.
EFN, Hannemyr, Oegrim and others are very active in support of Jan.
That is, writing articles and sending to newspapers. Showing up on Norwegian TV. Making sure the public gets to hear our side of the story.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
I'd second that.
EFN, Hannemyr, Oegrim and others are very active in support of Jan.
That is, writing articles and sending to newspapers. Showing up on Norwegian TV. Making sure the public gets to hear our side of the story.
I'd guess that at least 40% of the norwegian population support him, and this number is going to increase.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
How was DeCSS developed (inhowfar was the Xing decoder invovlved)?
Who actually did the coding (I read it was a group effort and you were only marginally involved in the coding itself)?
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
I just found this (from the livid-dev mailing list archive). It explains how DeCSS was done and by whom, as well as Jons involvement.
Please have a look at it. It clears up a couple of things...
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
This is not a question for Jon, but about this XMovie program. As I understand it, decss is included in the binary version of the player. Is that legal? I mean can you make a free player so long as you don't post source. Did XMovie use DeCSS directly or recreate it using CSS info available on some websites. What if you do the reverse enginneering yourself and release a free binary only player. Somehow I doubt the XMovie developers signed an NDA with these css people.
The most important thing that people should know is when the court date is set for, or if one has been set at all. So when is it Jon? This info will be needed to prepare for a show of support, getting more t-shirts and disks ready, etc.
It's easy for people on /. to talk about not letting big corperations push them about, but I'd guess that it's a lot more difficult when you actually have to do so, in face of being arrested.
Considering that you compiled promptly with the original cease and desist order, do you envisage a situatition where you have had enough, and admit "guilt", to get off with a "warning", or will you struggle to be complete exhonerated?
IMO, It's important to resist, because of the precedent it could set, but it's on thing to talk the talk, and different to walk the walk.
--
Exigo spamos et dona ferentes
All kids at one point want to achieve fame. is this how you pictured it unfolding in your case? Does the legal aspect of your story tarnish the fact that you broke a relatively strong encryption system while only 16 years old? Or, in other words does the tech aspect overshadow all of this legal hot water??
Wishing the best outcome for you.
One owns a Playstation game. One also does not own a Playstation. However, one, by virtue of being an uberhacker, make a psx compatable system out of baling wire, twine, and a mips processor.
Perfectly legal.
You may not be entitled to it, but that doesnt stop you from doing it yourself.
Let's see. If you can lay your hands on DVD mastering equipment (which seems to be a possibility for a number of firms in Hong Kong) you can just create a bit-for-bit copy. Not protected against in any way.
Depends what the usual source material is for mastering, it's more likely to be video tape or
film...
Unless the MPAA is going to pay for an army of guards for every DVD and film processing plant on the planet. As well as ensuring a guard (who is also a projectionist) accomponies every film print 24 hours a day preventing piracy is just impossible.
Digitally-distributed content (as CDs) have been around for a while, and the music companies are richer than ever. Ditto software, despite minimal copy protection. Why are movies different? The MPAA has yet to answer this question, even in a cursory way.
Becuase they are trying to support a status quo.
Films ended up ragional because of they way they are distributed, video cassettes regional because of differing TV standards.
Assuming that the MPAA believes it's own position is assuming that the MPAA is stupid, which I'm not yet willing to do.
It's very unlikely that the belive their own claims, any more than many other political preasure groups...
It even further beggars belief to suggest that their system for "protecting against piracy," while pitifully ineffective at curbing piracy, is "accidentally" a cunningly effective system for controlling the DVD player market.
It's more likley that it will be the norwegian press than the American press who will ask such questions though.
Sorry, chief, but AFAIK, the American government was not involved with Johansen's arrest.
Who other than the American government regulates the behaviour of American organisations?
By the way, during normal playback, DVD's are unencrypted by the hardware or software inside the DVD player or computer. They are then immediately displayed on the monitor. However, nothing would stop a good pirate from tapping into the serial bitstream that exists between the decoding process and the display routines.
Or for that matter tapping the RGB video signal also freely available. (How well does "Macrovision" work with RGB anyway?)
Since that process happens in system memory, all a creative hacker would have to do is copy the memory as the movie passes through it
Anyway the player software has know way of knowing
what the "video driver" it's communicating with actually does with the data...
Would the DeCSS technology allow players (the hardware, not the software) to be made by companies that have not bought licenses from DVD CCA?
Even if it does, that is irrelevent since the method involved is not patented.
It seems that this also poses a threat to the DVD CCA's bottom line.
It is not the job of the courts to re-emburse people for the results of their making poor business decisions.
You might just as well argue that Professor Rubik should sue for the royalties he would have got had he patented his cube.
I've read a lot of opinions that DeCSS doesn't actually enable piracy because piracy is possible without having to decrypt. The theory goes that a bit by bit copy of an encrypted dvd would be read by players just fine.
Has anyone attempted to disprove this, or even come up with a theory as to how a DVD player could possibly distinguish such a "copy" from "original"?
Many DVD playing software exists on the Win32 platform due to developers paying the $5000 (I believe?) licensing fee to develop a _legal_ software dvd player.
This would only be the case if the people involved had a (worldwide) legal monopoly on the process of unencrypting CSS. e.g. a patent was held.
However no entity appears to hold such a patent, if these licences were granted according to a claim of having such a legal monopoly then the appropriate term is "fraud".
Maybe this is why the issue is being persued so enthuiastically, to draw attention away from who is the real criminal here...
This is wrong. There are U.S. precedents for clickwrap licenses in some cases (ProCD Inc. v. Zeidenberg, Hill v. Gateway 2000 Inc, Hotmail Corporation v. Van$ Money Pie Incorporated). They may or may not apply to the DVDCCA trade secret case.
They will apply if someone puts up a licence to the effect that anyone connected to the DVDCCA looking at their website must pay them X amount of money.
From first CNN article, one of many of such claims...
"I made this program to be able to view DVD on my Linux," claims Johansen. "This way, the film industry no longer has a monopoly making DVD players."
From a later LinuxWorld arti cle (on CNN)...
"the encryption code wasn't in fact written by me, but written by the German member. There seems to be a bit of confusion about that part."
and, where you clarify your involvement...
"Actually, I was only linking [to the source code] and they wanted me to remove the link -- which I did, so that I could think it over. And then the link appeared again on my Website at the end of the week. "
"Open Source?" - Press any key to continue
"I'm pretty sure that I will do everything to avoid the media in the future"
but, in the LinuxWorld article, at the end, you say...
"ABC News is coming tomorrow, and I was supposed to demonstrate DVD playback under Linux. So I'm going to call some people now and try to get hold of a computer with a DVD-ROM and get Linux installed on it."
Again, why should anyone care what happens to you, when the origional release was for windows, for pirating, and had nothing to do with breaking a legal "monopoly".
"Open Source?" - Press any key to continue
Why do you think that DeCSS was made to be such a big deal. The movie pirating community has been copying DVD's with computers, using software just like yours for over a year now. I personally have copies of 3 different peices of software dating to march 99. So, what was all the ruckus over DeCSS?
Why do you think that DeCSS was made to be such a big deal. The movie pirating community has been copying DVD's with computers, using software just like yours for over a year now. I personally ahve copies of 3 different peices of software dating to march 99. So, what was all the ruckus over DeCSS?
It has been noted in several articles that your case was mentioned in the Norwiegen Parliament.
Have they done anything about the treatement you, and your father received from the Police? Or have they decided to sit on the and let the MPAA run the show of things?
What overall is the people's (that are in charge) reaction to your arrest and questioning by the police and the manipulation of the media (somewhat) by the MPAA?
Is it progress if a cannibal uses a fork?
Ahem... obviously you have not even placed a blind eye on the deCSS code or docs. DeCSS decrypts the data to encrypted DVD data so that it can be played without using a standard DVD player. It has absolutly nothing to do with copying the DVD whatsoever OR winblows. I think you been reading CNET and ZDNET too much...
Your proctologist phoned,
he said he found your head
-www.userfriendly.org
The whole issue of legal ramifications not withstanding (you being in Norway, this being a US case, etc):
Did you at any point stop and think what would happen if you released the code into the public sphere?
Many times, those who change/shake up the world do so without meaning to do it, others do. Which camp do you fall into, and why?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Has that coverage been fair in describing your beliefs, or does it appear to be strictly the MPAA/authority view?
Most of all, how do you think it compares with U.S. media coverage (CNN, L.A. Times, etc) of DeCSS?
--Humpty Dumpty was pushed!
Given the DeCSS mess will be resolved in court where excellent (read expensive) lawyers will decide the results (round after round). How well funded are you? Will you need monetary support to robustly and sufficiently defend yourself? If so, how can 'the community' help?
(Perhaps Andover.net could operate a fund for this pariticular case?)
Quick! Who do you kill:
Bill Gates
The DVD Copy Control dude who started this whole stupid mess
Donny and Marrie Osmond
That little idiot from Home Alone
The person/persons who created the TV show "The Nanny"
My other question is:
Where you one of those social misfits who laughed when ET died? (it's a cool way to get smacked by a perfect stranger - neat huh)
Alas gallinaceas de urbe bovis volo
Female Prison Rape in NY
I'm not sure if you can answer this because of all the legal trouble, but it would be interesting to learn something about MoRE, the Masters of Reverse Engineering. How many people are you? How long have you been working together? What's your background in coding and cryptography, and how old are you guys anyway?
It's almost impossible to have a baseless snobbish opinion of the General Theory of Relativity.
At the time DeCSS was written, Linux could not read the UDF Filesystem well enough to perform the task.
Colin Davis
Since this code was meant to be tinkered with by anyone in the OS community, the appropriate thing to do was release the source code to the Web, where anyone can make it into whatever they want.
Incidentally, it is not illegal to copy DVD disks, by that logic, CD duplicators would be illegal. (I know I've seen one advertised on TV from Philips, so if it is they are going to get caught soon.)
So, the fact that DeCSS can be used in the ungainly and useless for piracy purposes task (currently) of copying huge VOB files to a hard drive does not make it illegal, per se.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Did the arresting officers say or do anything that blatantly hinted that they were doing this because of pressure from the MPAA or the United States government? What kinds of questions did they ask during the interrogation? Were they looking for other people to arrest?
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Is this legal? In the US, this would be classified as illegal exhibition of copyrighted works. Bars/restaurants in the US can't just go rent movies from the local Blockbuster and play them for their customers.
Good point. I would suspect that the laws are not uniform (maybe the EU has something to say about it, but maybe not). We could get arround this by having the bars provide the TV & player and allowng anyone who wants to bring in a DVD play it. The local anti-MPAA people could order themselves DVDs of new releases that are not released in Europe and watch them at a bar. Where other people would see the movie and want to know how they got it before it was released, thus spreading the word. A bar is a personal enough setting that it *might* be hard to attack anyone involved if it was not explicitly a promotional stunt by the bar.
Jeff
BTW> The majority of MPAA movies are not very good so actually seeing bits and pieces of the movie would take the thrill out of going to the theater for many people.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
If it's Illegal, then could anyone buy a DVD from a different region, try to play it in their own region, and as it won't work, sue the DVD player manufacturer? The MPAA? Anyone? Would it be possible to start a grand scale legal crusade against all DVD manufacturers, just as they are (3 litigations and counting)???
You would have difficulty getting the case to court since the damages are so small, but a class action lawsuit might work. It would be a good idea to file complaints with the various consumer protection orginisations who normally handle the class action lawsuits. It would also be interesting to file hundereds of suits in small claims court, but I don't know how well this would really work,
The best solution is probable to try and get the regionless DVD players that they sell in some countries (the ones who inforce the laws about region locking being illegal) out onto the open market, i.e. set up a mail order shop in one of these countries. We could really hurt the movie industry by getting Europeans access to cheap american DVDs that come out before the movie is released in theaters (assuming people play them in public so that no one will want to wantch the movie) and giving everyone access to cheap indian DVDs.
Jeff
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
The MPAA is making this out to be a piracy issue because to them it is a piracy issue. It doesn't matter to them that you or any other Slashdot reader doesn't think it's a piracy issue. To them it is a piracy issue, because whether or not the program was intended to do so, the fact remains that it does make piracy easier. There's no getting around that. Now it's up to the courts to decide whether it really is a piracy issue and whether or not the MPAA has a valid complaint. You can argue that all you want.
This is not true! We do not know their real reasons, but ANY good analysis of the situation should take into consideration things like region codes and independent film distribution. The relevent facts are:
1) Region codes are illegal (under international law and many national laws), but very few countries enforce these law. The MPAA wants to protect their illegal use of region codes to provide crappy (delayed) releases in Eurpoe and extort additional money from Europeans. The biggest threat that DeCSS represents to the MPAA is that Europeans will buy DVDs legally before they are released in Europe's theaters.
2) The MPAA wants to control distribution. Currently, they have a strangle hold on independent films because they control printing. The real threat to their dominance from independant film would come if people started distributing independant films directly via selling DVDs.
There has been a lot of talk about fighting the MPAA by boycotting movies. I think this is a wonderful idea, but I think we would be more effective if we make it easyer for the masses to boycott movies. How do we do this?
The answer is: open Linux DVD theaters in European resterants and bars! If Europeans start seeing the new releases in bars before they come out in theaters they will be less likely to see the movie in the theater. This in one of the best ways to hurt the MPAA's pocket book, so if you live in Europe you shouldconsider helping you local bar wire up a regionless DVD player or a Linux box to play new releases from America!
And that's before we get to the fact that your asking Jon to shed light on motives that he has had no part in shaping.
This is correct, but it is likely that Jon knows more then the author of the original post.. and can probable provide additional hypothetical incentives (like the above) which are much more realistic then the MPAA's piracy argument.
Jeff
BTW> It would be nice if someone would post the address of a place to order a regionless DVD player.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
I own DVDs. I don't own a DVD player. It belongs to one of my roommates, and is currently in our basement community room. If I feel like watching a semi-crappy-quality VCD on my 19" monitor in my room, I'm entitled to do so. If I need software like deCSS to help me, then so be it. For that matter, VCD's aren't that great looking. What's to stop me from dumping VHS tapes to VCD under fair use? Nothing. What's the difference in quality? It can't be much. We're crunching 70 minutes of video and stereo sound into the space normally required by raw sound at 44.1KHz.
Sorry, OT, I know.
Read the article at Wired. He says himself that it wasn't he that broke it, but two other anonymous members of MoRE!!!
Firstly - Apologies from my race (Human - Arguably), and good luck.
Question: What's all the fuss about, can we see the source code??? *8^<
Gav
Gav
"There's no such thing as data that can't be manipulated"
If you were forced, at gunpoint, to make love to Natalie Portman, what position would you choose?
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
More generally, we all have our own ideas about why reverse engineering takes place, usually a missing piece of tech, but are there any circumstances that specifically discourage this type of work? Will laws do it? What about companies being more comprehensive in providing support for various OSes?
god is just pretend.
Have you found any support from people (aside from family) in Norway? Has the public reaction to the arrest been favorable (i.e. in support of you) or negative?
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
Hey Jon,
At 16 I was into a bit of piracy myself, cracking Atari games and carts and distributing them through BBS's in the dark days before the internet. These days it's a whole different game, and anything that gets "discovered" by a clever hacker can be immediately propagated across the globe.
And of course with this new power in the hands of individuals the corporations are running scared.
Which brings me to my question:
Do you think it's appropriate for corporations to make criminal the mere discovery of their secrets? And to put it in a more loaded way... Does this situation have anything to do with "real ownership," or is this just an example of the fear and vindictiveness of an industry scared that it can't control the forces of Nature?
(colorful, eh?)
--------
Yeah, I'm a Mac programmer. You got a problem with that?
-- thinkyhead software and media
Considering the effects of your code: the media attention, the legal disputes,and the freedom that it might help to bring, would you do the same (or something similar) again?
The point I was trying to make is that Jon never *wrote* the Windows binary. It was written by parties from the DoD group. He was the one who posted it, but not authored.
let me just say, ARGH.
The guy being charged, Mr. Johansen never released a Windows program of any sorts. What he *did* release was the source code to decode the encryption.
With the source code, someone else created a Windows program to decode the DVD. While I'm on the subject. He also did *not* write the code to break the encryption, he was merely the one who posted it and stood behind it.
Hope that helps.
There seems to be software out there to copy direct to VCD - I've seen it referred to and I once heard someone on another machine in a lab referring to their using it. Can't find a copy to prove it, though.
I found this link in an earlier DeCSS article; it lists no less than 19 programs under the DVD-rippers header. Now, from what I can gather, a few of these programs need to be used in concert, but the fact remains that there are several methods to rip DVDs out there, only one of which is DeCSS. Now, I haven't used any of them, but from what I can gather--especially from looking at some of the quite detailed "how to rip DVD's using blah" articles I found on the above link--it appears to be quite a lot easier to get yourself either a lossless or a reduced-size mpeg of your DVD's using the tools that were already out there than with DeCSS.
If you had it to do all over again, would you still do it, know the (unfair) legal mess it would land you in?
The cake is a pie
Have any United States elected officials contacted you or your legal team offering support? (and if they did, would you accept it, given that these would be representatives of the government attempting to harm you?)
Has your legal team considered a large-dollars countersuit, alleging slander, libel, and harassment (specifically, that they are claiming you to be a video pirate in absence of proof otherwise)?
Maybe if you took a logic course, you'd understand the term "weighted". In legal terms, you'd be "leading the witness".
... "How often do you beat your wife" infers that you <em>do</em> beat your wife. The question, honestly asked, would be "Do you beat your wife, and if so, how often?"
The idea is to ask a question with an answer in it
His comment that to the MPAA this is a piracy issue wasn't a weighted question because it wasn't a question.
Period.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
What kind of software work have you done before this? Have you always been interested in codes and/or code-breaking? Code-breaking isn't the type of thing that everyone figures out easily; do you find yourself a natural? On a side-note, would you take a job from the NSA? :-)
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
How many DVD's have your purchased? What do their copyright notices say? Have you (or anyone you know) "pirated" any DVD's in violation of the copyright notices as you understand them?
Did you violate the End User Licence Agreement for the Xing player? Did you even accept it? Can the keys be extracted from the Xing player without accepting the EULA? Can DeCSS be recreated without exploiting the openness of the keys in the Xing player?
Do you anticipate this will elevate you to a status that may enable you to have some groupies for you to "enjoy".
If so, would you reccomend this sort of thing as a way to get laid?
Also did people stop laughing at you at school, for being a geek, or do they have respect for you?
First -- this may seem a bit off topic; it is. However, I feel that everyone should be aware of the facts. This is not a question for Jon :-)
;-):
From the DeCSS readme.txt (in case you don't have your own copy
# wnaspi32.w98.dll: Use this for Win98
# wnaspi32.w2k.dll: Use this for NT/2K
-- No mention of Linux at all.
Yet the CNN/Linuxworld interview purports:
"Jon Johansen, a 16-year-old Norwegian member of the Masters of Reverse Engineering (MoRE) -- the group which created the DeCSS DVD playback utility for Linux."
Utility for Linux? I have no source, no code other than the binary code that is for Windows and only Windows. The CSS-auth core of the LiViD project, and the LiViD project itself, are opensource (and Linux runable) projects -- DeCSS is just a way for Windows users to use their HDs as buffers for DVD movies, or give people a chance to play with unencrypted DVD data under Linux if they have a dual boot machine handy.
I hope you people keep this in mind when writing stories about DeCSS -- because it was never intended to run under Linux, nor does it. It's just a simple Windows tool to "DeCSS" your CSS data.
---
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
You've obviously witnessed the hoopla the release of the DVD code has created in the movie industry, and it's effects of prosecutions and even your home being raided. Thus said, if before you released the DeCSS code, you knew of all these consequences and controversies that would be created, would you still have released it? Or, knowing these consequences, what other steps may you have taken to release the code to the public?
make world, not war
My understanding has been that he wrote the GUI for the program, which would involve him with the creation of the Windows program.
See the point? Does owning a DVD automaticaly entitle you to the software to play it? (And hardware, if you don't have both a DVD drive and the software to decode DVD movies.)
I'm personally not going to lose any sleep if you or anyone else copies their DVDs so they can watch them. I have a few movies of my own on my computer, all pirated from my the network here at school. There is a difference, however, between taking something knowing it's stealing, and believing that you are entitled to it.
I think that the charges you are facing is rather ridiculous, but I have to wonder: Why Windows? If the motive of you and the group you worked with was to have a DVD player for Linux, why release this program that works only under Windows?
Now Slashdot and a lot of other "news" sites have put a completely single sided spin on this story. Personally I hate to jump on the bandwagon before being informed of _both_ sides of the issue.
Many DVD playing software exists on the Win32 platform due to developers paying the $5000 (I believe?) licensing fee to develop a _legal_ software dvd player. Why has no Linux organization attempted to do the same? Redhat, Caldera, Corel, or any number of organizations could've coughed up the licensing fee and created their own dvd playing software.
Why go in such a roundabout manner, fighting with the DVD industry and possibly slowing down development of projects such as DVD Audio?
Flame away, but it just seems extremely strange to me to make an enemy of the DVD industry over a measly $5000
Many of the questions being asked here are focusing on the programming and technical aspects of deCSS, or on the legal aspects of the whole situtation. I thought I'd ask a lighter question, to help us know you better.
Obviously, one of the main reasons for creating deCSS was to enable Linux users to watch DVD movies on their desktop. So, Jon, had deCSS entered into the world with less of an ordeal than it did, and Linux DVD players were freely available and working well, what movie would you be watching, right now? What are some of your favorite films or film genres?
Pardon me, but how in the HELL do you get moderated up to SIX?!?
Although I agree with what you were doing, how can you honestly expect to defend your actions, and say that your work would be used for legitimate purposes only? It is almost like the disclaimer that you see on many crack download sites - "This is for educational use only." Do you/did you honestly believe that no one would use this for ripping DVD's?
Your problem was that you were honest. You could have achieved your goal by posting anonymously,
e.g. in a newsgroup/mailing list via some anonymous remailer. No way (?) you could have
been caught.
Should there be an infrastructure for Anonymous Open Source development?
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
How have your non-hacker friends in your normal life responded to your notoriety? Do you get weird looks in school, or at the supermarket? Any interesting propositions from the ladies? Does anyone even know or care about what you did?
Unix: Where
In case you're still wondering why they took his cell phone, check out some info on his phone, the Nokia 9110. That is one helluva phone.
Why didn't you simply create the source in secret or using a forged identity or perhaps an alias? If one wishes for something to spread in some way the usual method to do so is to allow the talent to not be destroyed or diluted in any way. My question did you consider the possibilities about breaking this encryption scheme and what kind of response you would have generated?
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
Is it true the police did indeed confiscate a win2k box, and if so did you have a license as a beta tester to run this unreleased software?
Knowing what you know now, would you do it again?
Do you have any advice for other hackers thinking of challenging the system?
Be insightful. If you can't be insightful, be informative.
If you can't be informative, use my name
Whatever Jon says here will be used against him and others in future court cases. Count on it.
Be insightful. If you can't be insightful, be informative.
If you can't be informative, use my name
2) Given the fact that you were well within your rights if I understand Norwegian law correctly, are you planning a civil suit? If so, how much are you planning on asking in damages? Would you plan to include defamation of character due to the comments in the LA times story?
Ok, that's more like 4 questions...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
So now that Kevin Mitnick has been released, what do you think of the theory that you are the new "evil hacker" persona that the powers that be have decided to make an example of?
Enter the DirtMerchant
When writing deCSS, did you ever consider writing a DVD player application instead of a program to simply rip the information from the DVD and if so, do you believe that writing a DVD player instead of a DVD copying program would have made this legal battle a bit easier?
Esperandi
In case your question doesn't get chosen (it probably will, but just in case), you ought to take a second to think about it.... what do you know of the media coverage in his home country? How do you know that over there it wasn't an even more major issue than in the U.S.? Why do you believe this to be a possibility if you only know one side of the fight?
(these are questions to the question-poster, not to the author of deCSS)
Esperandi
"It is entirely clear that DeCSS has been developed in order to watch DVD videos on linux boxen"
Its a Windows program. it doesn't play video or audio. How the hel is it obvious to you that it was developed for Linux and for the purpose of creating a DVD player? deCSS copies DVDs. That's not a speculation on what it might do or could do, that is what it does and its the only thing that it does. And it does it under Windows.
Yeah, it'd be nice if he had written a DVD player for Linux, but he didn't. He wrote a DVD copier for Windows. because of that, this court case is a million times tougher than if he had done the former.
Esperandi
I do not have a compiled version of deCSS and I've never compiled it. I got it off of download.com when it was listed #1 Illegal Download of the Day (strangely, it still shows up on their search but the pages are gone). Apparently you've never looked at the deCSS source code yourself, because its full of Windows API calls. Windows API calls do not work in Linux. Linux does not have hwnds or a winmain() function.
Now, if you had calmed down and told me that deCSS was developed as part of the LiViD project (which I only found out by following your link and reading the EFF stuff), you could have informed me. It doesn't help for you to claim the software doesn't copy the DVD to the hard drive (it does) or to claim that its not for Windows (which it is). Just leave the facts alone, and explain calmly, and let it roll through the courts. Regardless of the outcome, I would bet money there will be a Linux player available before long.
Esperandi
I read a similar interview with him held at www.vg.no (Norwegian newspapers web site) and I was very impressed by the way he answered all questions in a serious and proffesional manner.
He was obviously chosen as spokesman(?) for MoRE for a reason
That being said, I actually would find it intresting to see Jon reply to something like this.
But that's just my twisted intrests.
--
Tarald - The Lord of Smeg
Tarald - The Lord of Smeg
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on
Questions like this are silly because he can only answer one way without admiting guilt. This is only on step removed from TV reporters who ask "Did you kill him?" as a guy is being led into a court.
This view is not often (hardly ever) shared by management, that is until your story shows up on the front page of VG (a norwegian tabloid). Less than a week ago, I was asked for qualifications for a job description, and as usual I tried to pitch my "skills over education" angle. Big surprise, thay went for it. "Yes sure, we wouldn't mind hiering someone like that 16 year old from Vestfold!". It seems you may have done much more than you set out to do :-)
On with the question: Not unrelated to the above, I know you have gotten several job offers over the last few weeks, and I can guaranty there will be more. Are you considderieng any of them? I mean, if you get the right offer, for the right company, would you leave school and start working? (based on the above, it shouldn't be hard to figure out what my advice would be :-).
Somewhere in your answer (to this question or or elsewhere) you should also include a few words about the support of your father. I saw a small peace on TV2 (norweginan TV) where thay interviewed him and you, and I think is amazing for your father to stand by your and support your actions in the way that he did.
Well, thats pretty much it. If you'r ever out in Tbg. look me up. I'll buy you a beer any day!
Hang in there, and good luck!
B. Johannessen
Acts@core.mailboks.com Acrux@core.mailboks.com Adam@core.mailboks.com Adar@core.mailboks.com Ada@core.mailboks.com
Since when has logic had anything to do with it? Of course it's legal to copy DVDs under fair use laws, but that doesn't stop the MPAA from not only claiming copying of any kind is illegal, but printing "NO COPYING" on the top of every DVD pressed. They're idiots. If they were thinking logically about this, these lawsuits would never have been filed.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
When you first put DeCSS on your website, did you expect the fuss and attention it has gained? or was this a huge suprise to you.
Now you know about all the hassle that has resulted from your posting DeCSS, the arrest, the press attention etc.. If you could go back and change your miund about posting it, would you?
The US has convicted people younger than 16 as adults. Many times.
Breaking commercial level encryption is quite a feat for a 16 year old. What is your background and experience in programming ? What platforms and programming languages are you familiar with ?
Who's paying the legal bills?
Is there a legal fund we can contribute to?
I'm still working on a clever footer.
Do you feel that this entire "legal" debacle was prompted not by your own local jurisdiction's concern, but rather as a result of the U.S. government's ability to make a decision, then force said decision on everbody else? I.e. Do you feel that you were you arrested because *your* government decided to, or because the U.S. government decided to?
.------------ - - -
| big bad mr. frosty
`------------ - - -
As is a (thankfully) usual reaction to such a blatant injustice, the Slashdot community (and many others) have been scrambling to figure out ways to help you and others prosecuted in the name of this whole DeCSS fisasco.
As one (if not the) most persecuted individual as a result of DeCSS, what do you think the rest of the supporting world should do to help you out? What should the people who want to help do, besides the obvious posting of the DeCSS source and the general badmouthing of the MPAA?
------------
"Okay, who taught the cat how to type ctrl alt delete?"
There are a couple things I think that will probably find you guilty when tried.
This is a bit from the injunction against www.2600.com.
2600
9 THE COURT: An infringement of copyright, by
10 definition, is the violation of the copyright proprietors'
11 exclusive rights as conferred in the Copyright Act. That is
12 not what your clients are charged with, as I understand it.
13 So I don't see what the applicability of 512(c) to this is at
14 all. Now, if I'm mistaken, that's the reason I raised the
15 point; I'd like to hear about it.
This is the problem, the MPAA went and got laws passed that protected the whole dvd process when it is used to protect copy protected works.
IF they use this clause and your country is one of the 14 that also agreed this was a good thing, your screwed. In effect you broke the law.
THE COURT: The charge against your clients is 2 providing a device which is a means for circumventing an
3 access limiting factor. The infringement would be done by
4 someone else, although it might be done by your client, it
5 need not be. Nor is the infringement essential to the
6 violation of 1201. Is there some error in that, counsel?
If they go after you for this, they can go after linking to a site containing this also. Its already a law in the U.S. ITS NOT A FREEDOM OF SPEECH THING.
I think the 2600 guys are pretty muched hosed also. Change the law, or prove it unconstitutional, which looks a bit tougher.
I'm not entirely uncertain I disagree with this law in spirit, just because a movie maker spends 200million to make a move and millions more marketing and distributing it, doesn't mean you can rip it off.
And lets face it, everyone that uses is will be looking at ways to copy and trade them off.
Sorry, but I dont think I can back up what you did and probably side more in this case with the people protecting thier businesses. I'm not saying I like the idea that they will controll DVD players this way, but they planned well.
IF you dont like this law, get it changed.
I dont want to see anyone going to jail, but your in for some long worried nights.
Flame me if you want, but please read all the stuff going around from the legals, and look at the MP3 and VCR dubbing. This program was made to act like a copier, and with rising bandwidth and large 140gig florecent CD's coming out soon, I can't believe it wouldn't be used that way.
BTW the court pretty much hammered the 2600 guys in this initial hearing of injunction.
Good luck.
Does the rest of MoRE have anything to say on this matter.
If you could now once and for all make clear what MoRE is and how it's involved DeCSS.
(I think DoD was in on a little piece to but that might have been the little voices in my head)...
To what extent would you be willing to comply with 'them'(ie, the MPAA, the gov't...)? Is there anything(code- or principle-wise) that you would be absolutely unwilling to compromise?
===
-Ravagin
Karma: T-rexcellent.
Excuse me for a second: What drugs were you on when you made this post? And who moderated it up to four?
;-) Wouldn't you be pissed? . . ;-) (especially if "you" were one of the biggest industries in the world). Also, the MPAA had promised the movie makers that DVD was copy safe, another reason why they are on the defensive.
While you and the rest of the world who have no clue what actually happened may think Jon is a miscreant who just wanted a piece of limelight, the rest of us think what he did was highly honorable. First of all, any amount of illegal use resulting from his actions will be neglible and IMHO is completely subordinate to the greater good that it has accomplished.
Why won't his actions result in illegal use? Simple, it is cheaper and easier to buy a DVD then to pirate one by bypassing the copy protection (this may change as technology advances, but still the good outweighs the bad, especially since DVD ripps are already common and have nothing to do with what Jon did). What Jon did will only aid the process of developing software players for Linux or other OS's, which will result in more DVD sales.
So why is the MPAA so pissed? This is also simple. They got outwitted by a 16 year old. Jon made them look stupid. (How can you blame him for just telling the truth
In closing, sorry this sounds so inflammatory, but I think it was warranted. Many people will remember Jon for much longer than a month, and it won't be those people that thought of him in a bad light. It will be those who thought what he did was brilliant and honorable.
Maybe I'm just a cynic, but...
;)
Assuming you beat any legal rap thrown at you over this (at least under Norwegian law, and maybe also if the MPAA ultimately loses their suits in the US), do you have any business plans to profit from this affair yet? Or would your only direct personal benefit be resume fodder? (Not that that's a bad thing...)
But my question is this:
Is the only way for anyone to fix a problem is to do so by the most controversal means necessary?
Apply this to DeCSS. Why not make a public outcry to the world that DVD retailers are discriminating against alternate OSs and supporting the Windows monopoly by locking out DVD to Linux? Why instead did the entire code have to be cracked?
Before you respond, I already know most people are thinking "The only way to be heard is to do something drastic!" But look what you've done! Sure, you say that you have no intensions of copying DVD software, but you've opened the door for it to be done! You may have publically opened the door for Linux users to finally view DVDs, but you've also managed to leave the door open for anyone else who wants to do something a little more illegal.
Copying DVDs bitwise can be done.
One should suppose the movie business would like DVD going to Linux, opening a new market.
Therefore it's a little strange to see them suieing someone who lets players be more abundant. Do you agree that their real fear might be raw video from DVDs being modified and republished?
Slashdot: News for Gay Football Fans. Stuff about Tight Ends.
...you're damn right that was a stretch.
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
I tried out the xmovie binary that is supposed to play DVD's. I'm running RedHat 6.1 on a PII400.
I downloaded the pentium II binary, and when I try to open a DVD with it, I get 2 messages about deleted semaphores and then a message that just says "Crash". Mpeg movies play just fine.
Have any of you gotten his to work?
good effort
"The new wave is not value-added; it's garbage-subtracted" - Esther Dyson, Dec 1994
Do you think that a reason that the MPAA is pursueing this so hard is that they are trying to cover up the fact that the encryption was ever broken. They were making some claims about how great their encryption was, and mabye they don't want the world to find out that they can't live up to thier claims as far as CSS goes. Is this because they got greedy and lost, therefore they lash out at evryone?
Don't call my crazy, that's what they called me back in the home!
Supposed you win a high-end Digital Camera. You take some pictures, are amazed of the quality and convenience, and you discover that the camera is not supported by gphoto yet. You discover that there is one guy who tries to reverse engineer the protocol of your camera, but he needs help. He has already done a little bit, a (very) alpha version exists. Would you join him and finish the driver?
Would the DeCSS technology allow players (the hardware, not the software) to be made by companies that have not bought licenses from DVD CCA? Would there be legal issues beyond the claims that are being made against you? It seems that this also poses a threat to the DVD CCA's bottom line.
Best of luck.
"You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
you are only allowed to watch a rented movie with members of your family in your own home - just like the music you buy. It is a breach to play a record to your friend when he comes round your house.
.oO0Oo.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Do you plan to use this unwanted fame and become a spokesperson for Freedom of Information or will you do your best to step out of the spotlight once this thing is over? (I can assume that a movie deal with you as the hero is not in your future... :)
-----
No Zen is good zen
I would be curious to know whether you have any indication from the police of when they might conclude their investigation and either bring charges or return your machines.
-- Eythain
If the MPAA succeeds, will a linux player for DVDs still be developed in the underground? Might there be a country beyond the influence of America that would allow it to be posted to the internet?
Of course, you're not in any way associated with the US and its sometimes draconian copyright/patent policies, except for your now world-famous involvement with the MPAA, but maybe you have some insight - and I quote the infamous amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Do you believe that this should apply to original source code? I.e. - no matter what the code does (say, an internet worm that overloads Micro$oft TCP/IP stacks, and clogs the internet for days l0pht style, or even, oh, DeCSS) should be protected by a fundamental law such as this?
Hi,
I'm European by birth, and growing up in Hungary I've noticed that Eastern European chicks are generally finer than the American blend. Does this, IYHO, hold true for Scandinavian chicks too?
--Josh Rosenberg (Colbey)
what are your plans for after this is all over ? do you have any other projects you'd like to pursue ? do you plan to continue with the DeCSS project or are you in favor of just dumping it in hopes of never having to deal with it again after the pain(?) its caused you ?
it would be extremely unfortunate if the MAN could so easily discourage those with real talent
god damn submit buttons being default. pissing me off
anyways as i was trying to say,
has anyone else noticed that just posting under this subject is guaranteed karma ? seems no matter how retarded or redundant, it gets moderated up.
sorry for the repeats if there were any
I've read a lot of opinions that DeCSS doesn't actually enable piracy because piracy is possible without having to decrypt. The theory goes that a bit by bit copy of an encrypted dvd would be read by players just fine.
Is this true in your opinion?
If so I think the DVD CCA wouldn't have a leg to stand on seeing as the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) only guards protection schemes on copyrighted works, not the hardware used to play those copyrighted works.
And it would lead credence to the concept of fair use (under interoperability exception) for those of us who want to play DVD's on our linux boxes! In any case, thank you for doing what you did and not faltering in the face of adversity!
neoThoth
Most of the case against DeCSS seems to revolve around the "fact" that DeCSS would aid movie pirates to copy discs, which is untrue.
As far as I know, the only purpose of DeCSS is to decrypt the disc, for either realtime play or to store the disk as an MPEG, under an open source license.
If a pirate wanted to copy a disc, he would just copy it without decrypting it; and nobody is going to upload a multi gigabyte file (nevermind download it).
So why, in your opinion, does the case have so many mentionings of movie piracy in it?
--
Talon Karrde
What tools/techniques did you use to reverse engineer the protocol/scheme?
Are you able to describe the methods or are you prevented from makeing those public as well?
*** www.linuxuk.co.uk relaunches 1 Mar 2000 ***
blog and junk
Jon, you lamer, couldn't you wait to post your pathetic code for a few month, so that a DVD recording standard would have been released once and for all? Now what? http://ttr.co.il/whiteppr.htm Should the enterntainment industry implement all this crap watermarking protection it will be real inconvenience having to brake through it too. Damn. D0Di?e
You can't handle the truth.
Those bastards. Probably CCA lawyer placed that comment here to sabotage Linux...
You can't handle the truth.
I was wondering if you have recieved any job offers as a result of all of this. Certainly if I were really interested in protecting DVD's, I would be more inclined to hire people like you than to sue them. If you have not, how would you respond to such an offer?
After the current situation blows over, do you think there can be a way to release a public-domain DVD decryption program/player without using reverse engineering or cracked keys? In other words, without breaking a click license or exposing any trade secrets, but perhaps by utilizing the experience that you and others have accumulated?
What do you think they should have used for their encryption and what do you think they will do next w/r/t encryption of DVD?
AFAIK, many people work on software projects. Is linux written by one person? Yes. Is it any good without the GNU stuff and hundreds of other programs? No. Jon's decryption algorithm is written by one person. But it will need development support from other people to build a fully operational DVD player.
Oh shit! I forgot to click "Post Anonymously"...
And I'm sure that when Jon's code is 9 years old, it will have outside influences too.
Oh shit! I forgot to click "Post Anonymously"...
I'm curious if anyone cares about the intentions of Jon(specifically) and various websites that propagate the code. Is Jon executing a true criminal intent? Can any such activity like the creation of DeCSS be considered criminal? I don't think the media companies involved really care about such issues, but they are important to the judicial process, which, unfortunately, Jon is experiencing. I believe it is almost universally agreed upon by the members of Slashdot that there is a great deal of difference between this DeCSS issue and the piracy and cracking violations that the lawyers involved are comparing it to. I guess, to narrow it down, Jon, how long are they going to pretend you're criminal and when are they going to admit to the fact that it's all about money and making an example out of someone? (A legal practice much used and much abused)
If I remember correctly, there are a whole lot of laws and workarounds involved with reverse engineering technology.
I believe that AMI and other BIOS manufacturers and clone makers of the old IBM XT days had to employ reverse engineers that built a notebook that provides specific information on how to build a PC BIOS (in this case a DVD Decoder). This information was then given to clean (virgin) engineers that have no idea how the information was obtained and aren't even familar with the original product. They then build from a set of documentation the chip (or software).
Do you think that if you had of employed such sneaky methods that you may not be in the position you are in? Is there anything that you regret doing or wish you had of done differently?
Second question: What do you think the outcome of this whole situtation will be?
Good luck, and we appreciate the sacrifices that you are making for the all of us.
-k
Obviously, the pure challange (was it really?) of figuring out the DVD encryption would appeal to any hacker worth his salt.
But for many people having DeCSS is also a matter of principle. A matter of freedom. Of not being sidelined because you are a minority.
My question is.. What were (if any) the other considerations part of your motivation to write DeCSS, or was the challenge the only motivation?
What do you think of all of the publicity that you have received over this. What do you want to say to the reporters/articles (ZDNET,CNET,Wired, et al) that have characterized you as a criminal hacker that is trying to ruin the entire movie industry.
kwsNI
How does it feel at the age of 16 to be at the center of such an important debate and to be a hero for so many of us here at slashdot.
--Hephaestus_Lee
"[Y]our wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick." -- Ian Anderson
Do you consider yourself to be a hacker, and do you think that the negative stereotypes fasley assosiated with the term "hacker" have effected how the government has handled itself in your case.
--Hephaestus_Lee
"[Y]our wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick." -- Ian Anderson
Just a small comment; government != courts, and that's the way it should be according to the classical theory of dividing the power (ie. government has no direct jurisdiction over courts, so that courts remain independent). Thus, it's not the government that is split (may be it is, who knows) based on the court cases.
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
It is highly honorable to defy unjust laws.
And what's with the drugs dig? You're a Bonehead.
I haven't seen a direct statement from you as to what type of help you need most right now, but I'm sure there are many who would like to assist.
Considering that you face criminal charges, shouldn't you be concerned that any statements you make here may be used against you at trial?
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
He already Answered this one in the LinuxWorld interview
Direct Quote:
"Jon Johansen: They are currently investigating, and I still haven't received my computers back. So I have ordered a new one today, which I will be receiving on Friday. Which is a bit too late, because ABC News is coming tomorrow, and I was supposed to demonstrate DVD playback under Linux. So I'm going to call some people now and try to get hold of a computer with a DVD-ROM and get Linux installed on it.
You can Find the whole Interview: here.
"I mean, All you can definately say about a fellow who thinks he's a poached egg, is; He's in the minority." James Burke
When I refer to the "american government", I'm refering to the executive branch, not the judicial. The executive branch controls both law enforcement and the state department, and as this administration has shown in the past (especially in regards to computer freedoms), it will do anything to protect the role of government and corporations in everyday life.
As Andrew Jackson proved with the enforcement of the indian removal act, the courts can make all the decisions they want, but the chief executive is still the one in charge.
(After Chief Justice Marshal ruled the act was unconstitutional, Jackson more less told Marshal to go ahead and try to enforce his decision, and Jackson moved the indians anyway)
Being from a fairly liberal nation, it must be fairly puzzling to be made the "example" of by the american government. How has your opinion of your native country, and that of america been chasnged by all of your experiances- especialy considering you've cooperated for the most part?
Jon,
In 1998 I came up with the Cache-Cow family of Netscape exploits, and like you decided to publish my work. On the advice of a friend I gave my story to John Markoff at the NYT. He wrote an article which basically made me out to be the good guy (perhaps protecting me from corporate wrath), and this aspect of it was faithfully imitated by the hordes of follow-up articles in other publications.
On the other hand, this same journalist helped put Kevin Mitnick in prison. Now I don't feel so good about advancing his career.
And now you've been arrested for writing a program. Suddenly I don't even feel so good about writing exploits anymore.
My question is, what do you think about the role of the media in seperating the "good hackers" from the "bad hackers"? Has the media slant created by the MPAA been a factor in the lawsuit, your arrest, etc.? Is it possible to successfully publish software by using the media rather than being abused by it?
/jdb
Large corporations have recently been under fire from both the media and consumers about trading practices and frivolous lawsuits. From the DOJ vs. Microsoft lawsuit to the WTO Seattle incident. It seems like this area is about to explode. Who do you see winning? (Not just this battle but the whole war.) Are large corporations important enough to be allowed to stomp on the rights of the people? (p.s. we're all behind ya kid)
How do you expect your age to influence the charges against you?
Judge Pag, the Learned, Impartial, and Very Relaxed
Did you stop to consider the effect your actions (cracking the Content Scrambling System) would have on the release of DVD Audio? I really wish you had at least waited until DVD Audio was cemented -- now, they'll either never release DVD Audio or postpone it while thinking of a CSS replacement.
I have a website. It's about Macs.
When can I buy the book And will it have the source included?
My question would be..Why'd you help create a program that exists for the sole purpose of pirating DVDs? Are you too cheap to buy the DVDs yourself, you asshole?
Were you pouring hot grits down your pants when the authorities came barging in? If you were, did the police have you pour hot grits down their pants too?
"Bad moderator, no karma"
Why do people think they can control information? Encryption will be cracked, programs will be reverse engineered, systems will be exploited, especially if publicly available. It may not be morally or legally right to do this, but it will happen. I'm not saying that people don't have a right to try to control information, but one day they're going to have to realized that, no matter how hard they try, they can't.
Our society and commercial structure must and will evolve in such a way that information can be freely distributed and edited, and the people who have put their time and resources into creating/compiling and distributing that information can still be rewarded.
DeCSS, and other such, mechanisms are clear evidence to this conclusion (although the DeCSS case is a rather unique one that I'm not well enough informed about to make any direct comment, and the 'system' may have to be torn down before our society can truly embrace the concept of freely flowing information.
Do you find any comfort in your situation with all the thousands of people supporting you?
Stay strong!
I am not sure whether you will be able to answer this due to the lawsuits and stuff, but I guess I will just ask anyway. What I am really interested in his how you cracked the encryption. I have heard that you reverse engineered it, but what does this entail? Any chance you can write a very descript explanation of how you cracked the encryption?
Shit!
So we will be seeing SW Episode 1 dvd in a few years, the first one with CCS 2.0 , with 128bit encryption.
Then the creators of all this just earns more money because everybody will have to buy a new DVD.
__ elacin