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Microsoft Enticed To Move To British Columbia
MartinB writes "The BBC is reporting that British Columbia have offered MS a home 100 miles away in Canada. 100 miles of geography, a million miles of juristiction. If MS are in Canada, the US legal system can't touch 'em. Or can they? " Well, I suppose they could move - but that wouldn't totally forestall US Legal Moves, because they'd be forced to maintain a US subsidiary. In addition to not really escaping the DOJ, there's the tax and issues of getting 20,000 people to move.
But to say that the maximum tax rate in BC is 43% is just nuts
No, actually this is the actual maximum marginal rate. Do the math. Don't forget the standard deduction and full deductions for CPP and UI.
You also made several errors:
- Provinces don't normally count federal surtax. B.C. might, but Ontario does not, afaik.
- Using the u.s. exchange rate is a red herring because standard of living differences even out the difference except for u.s. gadgets like computer hardware.
- With the recent budget, the upper tax bracket is being raised to $90,000 over the next 3 years. This is combined with a 3% middle tax bracket cut.
Obviously, if WA has no income tax, then Canada doesn't even compare.... but compared to NJ, NY, CA, etc. Canada is very similar - maybe 3-5% more in income tax.
Unfortunately the 7% GST on all purchases is another big hit.
-Stu
BZAPP!!! Wrong answer.
The city of OKA allowed the construction of the golf course over the ancient burial ground; a blockade ensued for a few weeks, when the Sûreté du Québec (police) was called to dismantle it. In the ensuing mêlée, an officer was killed.
(By the way, Oka is the algonquin name; mohawks call it Kahnesatake. Once mohawks settled there, they gradually drove out the algonquins and hurons who lived there elsewhere).
The land in dispute around Oka is not, and never has been an indian reserve, as it is commonly assumed, and this explains the involvement of the Sûreté du Québec rather than the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (federal) normally used in case of indian revolts (such as the Kahnawake revolt in 1956 against the construction of the Saint-Lawrence Seaway - Oddly enough, the picture on the website is taken at Kahnawake; the bridge is the Mercier bridge, which was blockaded in 1990). As a matter of fact, the federal government department of indian affairs has been purposely been dragging it's feet in this matter, the more so because it helps tarnishing the image of Québec towards the world.
In Canada, indian affairs are a federal jurisdiction, so to better control them and use it against the french who want more control over their lifes. But in the OKA case, the land where mohawks have been living never had the status of reserve. In fact, that land was donated by a french religious (whose name escapes me) order to american mohawks that were fleeing the genocide perpetrated against the mohawk nation in upstate new-york, in the early 1800's, even though the mohawks/iroquois were the ennemies of the french (well, that was when they were useful to the english at war against the french - but when they were no longer useful, after the american Revolution, they were simply exterminated and driven out).
Other mohawks settled in Kahnawake , immediately south of Montréal (the site is worth visiting, being written in mohawk - see below).
It is interesting to note that while in Québec, the weeks-long blockade had almost totally cut the road to some important suburbs of Montréal and thus inconvenienced untold thousands of commuters (to the point that an emergency commuter train service had to be implemented), not a single mohawk has been killed by police nor army, whilst a little band of indians in Ontario blocking a little backroad saw one of theirs shot dead by police after only a few days of obstruction. This clearly shows the inherent racism of the english and the high tolerance of the french. In fact, in Québec, 20% of the carceral population is indian, whilst in the rest of Canada, it is 80%.
There is no rush, it is inevitable; history clearly shows that a people's desire for sovereignty (it is not separation nor separatism, we've always been a separate nation) cannot be suppressed indefinitely.
The purpose of bill 101 is to protect the existence of the french language in Québec against the onslaught of neighbouring english. The most visible effects have been the prohibition of english commercial signs, and the impossibility for immigrants to go to english schools.
The main idea there is to drive home the point that one cannot expect to live in Québec without knowing french.
Even though more than 80% of the population of Québec is french, immigrants have systematically assimilated themselves into the english community, since the immigration is a federal jurisdiction (the federal govenrment still does not inform immigrants that Québec is primarly french, and encourages them to speak english), and for the last quarter millenium (th e french first came to settle in 1604, thus beating the Mayf lower), the english have been labouring hard to make the french disappear from Canada (in 1760, at the time of the conquest, the french were 90% of the population; in 1867, at the time of the confederation, the french were 50% of the population; nowadays, the french are only 24% of the population). Ethnic cleansing in Canada has been quite successful: large segments of french population outside of Québec have been almost totally eliminated. In the 1880's, a whole french province, Manitoba, was forcibly repressed and turned into an english province. Ontario outlawed the teaching of french language in schools back in 1912. And, as recently as 1977, airlines pilots were susceptible to jail terms if they spoke french during the performance of their duties.
The expression "tongue troopers" is a bogeyman of the english media. The office de la langue française do not hire inspectors to report violations, but rather relies on the public to file complaints, which are then investigated by inspectors.
Another less known (and much less publicized, it would definitely shatter the negative image of Québec the federal government has consistently been trying to portray) effect of bill 101 is the protection it extends to native languages. This is why the Kahnawake website is in mohawk language: Québec has the highest proportion of native speaking their native language (over 80%) whereas in Canada, only the older generations speak the native languages, as the young have been mercilessly taught in schools that viciously suppressed any use of the native language.
Bill 101 is a very mild instrument whose purpose is to undo centuries of extremely harsh treatment.
Of course. This is the typical cluelessness that can be expected out of the english in Canada towards the french. And they wonder why the french want to go out...
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Here's my mirror
Essentially what you have to do is invest a certain amount of money to set up a business, that amount depending on the province you wish to reside in. This business must hire at least on Canadian citizen. Then you need at least 25 "points" (based on age, education, language ability (parlez-vous francais/anglais?), skillset, work experience, adaptibility to Canadian culture, etc). This will get you Entrepreneurial class landed immigrant status.
_ ___________________
The normal channels require 70 points, few Canadians could even get 70 points. I could probably just squeak by (I am young, I have a B.Sc., I have family in Canada (of course), but my French is not very good (I can probably read a tech document in French, but that is about all I can do) and I only have one year of experience under my belt.
Once you have landed immigrant status, you must reside in Canada for three years, you write a test (not a difficult one) and take an oath to the Queen. Voila! You are a citizen!
This is not "buying" Canadian citizenship, because all the money you brought with you is still yours.
The requirements for landed immigrant status are not an obsticle for Microsoft to move poeple into Canada, because the majority of their employees qualify to move under NAFTA.
_________________________________________
___ This sig is in boldface to emphasize its importance!
Microsoft discounted this minutes after the statement was released. What BC apparently offered was support for expanding operations in BC in the future, not moving the company there.
This is unlikely to happen for several reasons aside from earlier mentioned legal ones.
1) Many of Microsoft's employees are now longtime Seattle area residents they are not going to want to move and they dont HAVE to work anymore. They'll just retire or vest their stock options.
2) Microsoft doesn't need office space, infact if anything they may have to much now. They own 200 acres near Issaquah and the area around Redmond is one giant construction zone right now both for MS and other companies.
3) They are tightly integrated with the Washington State economy. Together with Boeing, the Navy, Paccar and a few others they are the largest local employer. The state is not going to let them go anywehre.
4) They are highly reliant on local institutions such as the University of Washington and the local community college system. Much of the education system here is now built around supporting the high tech companies such as Boeing and MS. There is a reason why Washington is now called the Silicon Forest by some.
The fact that this story even got posted borders on sheer lunacy. That and the numerous wrong facts stated about BC and Washington by Slashdot readers are amusing to.
Oh my god, you're so right.
A few weeks ago I went to California. I went to the Computer Literacy bookstore in Sunnyvale and bought SuSE 6.4.
They don't take bank cards!!!
That blew me away. Here I was, in friggin' Silicon Valley, and they're so backwards (the PCS coverage in SF sucked as well, but that's another story, Involving myself and 350 3Com guys shuffling around to get a decent connection). I use my bank card everywhere in Canada. I don't actually need cash, except for taxis. Plus it's all for a measly $5 a month. ($2.50 when I was a student)
I ended up using company money, intending to pay it back, until the president asked if I was going to put it on my company computer. "hell yeah!" "Expense it then."
Ok, enough rambling. It's just that the US banks sort of scare me, which is pretty crazy considering the way Canadian banks behave...
I thought about the possibilities that Microsoft might go with. This one, quite frankly, was one of the most outrageous that I could come up with. Except instead of Canada, they bought an island just outside of US waters and made their employees commute. They'd still have to keep the branches in Dallas, N.C., and others though. Kinda funny...
I'm also seeing all sorts of new questions and restrictions at border crossings. ("Any software to declare?") Anyone entering Washington from Canada with a laptop would have to submit to a full hard-drive search.
"Would the last Microsoft employee out of Redmond please turn out the lights."
normal(adj)- people who don't sit on slashdot all day wondering why everyone else isn't building robots [DECS]
As I said previously the obvious course for Microsoft is to move to a third world country where they can write the legal system to suit themselves and then see what anyone is going to do about it. Are all the alternatives to MS products ready to convince the world at large that they can and should drop all Microsoft products because they have patently abused their monopoly, wasted a fortune in taxpayers money (US, EU and Japan anyway) and ignored the presiding legal system? I don't think so.
Bottom line, how much to harbour Microsoft, the worlds new enemy that everyone is still handing over fortunes to. Would any government worldwide be willing to ban MS products import and use?
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
We all know how good they are at national security. They don't allow foreign workers in to their Los Alamos labs where they could send information about US nuclear weapons back home. They wouldn't allow that kind of thing to occur for over a year after high-ranking federal government officials were notified of problems.
Oh, wait a moment... they already did: last year.
They won't move everybody at once. If they do this, they'll offer relocation packages, severance pay, early retirement (if some employees ARE that old) and other deals to suit their workforce.
Another foreign dictator claiming political asylum.
Everything's been downhill since the TRS-80
Socialist provincial goverment vs unbridled capitalism (which is what M$ is after and accustomed to)
C$ vs US$ - Would M$ employee be willing to be paid in C$ or would they demand to be paid in US$?
Different tax scheme (rates, rules, laws)
Getting 20K people to uproot their family
Immediate housing crunch in Vancouver and surroundings - Housing prices would soar and the other ridents of the area would rebel
Long arm of US Law
And what would M$ gain from all this?
I few years back I was in Vancouver and I took a bus tour of the city, our tour guide told us that it was possible to buy Canadian citizenship. I can't remember the exact details but I believe it entailed a somewhat large investment in a business in Canada. Apparently this was how many people from Hong Kong were able to get into Canada and become citizens.
/. visitors from Canada that can shed more light on this.
I'm sure there are some
There is no doubt that Outlook sucks when it comes to security and stability (as do most M$ products). But I disagree, the revenue generated annualy by M$ (for vendors, developers, etc.) far exceeds the cost that Yahoo's Insurance company has to eat when some script kiddie decides to run a DOS attack. Nor does shutting down an Exchange server temporarily. Just my $.02
The facts expressed here belong to all, the opinions to me. The distinction between fact and opinion is yours to decide.
Are you referring to the Govenor General? All he does is submit reports to her HRH.
And the only powers she has is "advisory".
I believe it works this way: The BNA act, which was created c.1867 was repealed by HRH in 1982 with the Canada act, 1982 under Pierre Trudeau.
http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/ Canada_Act_1982.html
spam, spam, spam, spam, e-mail, news and spam.
Probably because they're afraid that the US would then ban import of random European goods (food, steel, etc) into the US. In world economy, you not only consider who is right or wrong, but also who is strongest... up to a point. Until now, drastic actions are not yet warranted, as the trial in the US seems to be heading into the right direction, and there's no point to trigger a needless economic war. However, in case the situation changed, the EU parliament would certainly examine which option would cause the lesser harm.
Say no to software patents.
I may be wrong here, but doesn't journalism require a certain number of facts to back up a story?
The content of the story, a whole 20 lines sounds more like fiction than any of fact.
You would have thought there might be a bit more proof rather than that quick take
The news media is suffering from the CNN syndrome...10 second outtakes, flashy headlines and whos got the coolest looking microsoft vs. DOJ graphic.
Just a thought, but do I know I am only a programmer...ack.
m
Close...
we are extremely desperate for people to STAY here.
We produce a great number of coders, computer engineers and scientists and other such people in the industry, however they are lured away by the higher salaries down south (despite higher costs of living).
There have been huge articles all over the news for the longest time about the "brain drain."
Should MS move to Canada, people would come here instead of leaving. This would be an attractive offer for MS employees, (poverty level in Seattle = $50,000 per annum USD -- poverty level in Canada = $30,000 per annum CDN -- therefore the average employee instantly becomes richer), not to mention it would have huge benefits to the local economy.
All in all, it benefits BC even more than it would Microsoft.
This thread reminds me of CB radio traffic between truck drivers at a busy truck stop, laid over for a holiday weekend. It all starts with black vs white, then transforms into north vs south...........
Just what we need....Rednecks raising the stars and bars running around trying to figure out where Canada is so they can invade.
All this talk about "Canadian this vs US that" makes me wonder when the lot lizards will crawl out from under the desk.
In either country they work tax free.
;P
Integrity is what you are when nobody is looking.
The source is strong with you, young Torvalds, but you are not a billionaire yet.
This is my sig.
Actually, Government is exactly like Microsoft software. Every year the politicians here complaints from the people, so they add new features to the government. As a result, government gets larger, bulkier, and more bloated. This in turn introduces new problems, which causes even larger government. Gates and company would fit right in.
This is my sig.
The issue with taxation is not at all relevant to Microsoft. Microsoft's entire plan rests on leveraging Windows. If Microsoft can move to Canada in an attempt to escape United States interference, they would do so. They would gladly trade a higher tax rate for the right to keep their business model intact. A trend has been started. If the Canadian Government can sell a higher tax rate in exchange for less anti-trust interference, then Microsoft will not be the first American company to even consider jumping ship. What about AOL/Time Warner? We Americans should not be so arrogant to presume that the United States is the best place on the continent to run a software company, or we risk losing them to an aggressive neighbor up north. Hey, as long as the United States fancies itself to be a sort of modern Roman Republic, it risks making the same mistakes.
This is my sig.
Even if they were going to move, they'd deny it at this point. The prudent thing to do is leak the plan, then wait a year or two for DOJ to go through, then move based on "some other reason". There are plenty of other reasons for considering a move. If Canada winds up with better immigration laws, puts a "better" anti-trust system on the table, or even has some advantages in trading with Europe that the US might lose in a stupid trade war over genetically doctored food, then Canada will be a better place for doing business. If the actions of the US government piss off the rest of the world, and make it difficult for a company flying the US flag to operate overseas, then Canada will be a better place for US business.
Sure, it might be a stupid rumour, but I wouldn't dismiss the plan with the logic of "it's impossible, or America is inherently better". We made this mistake with manufacturing in the 1970's and 1980's, and we could easily make it with technology.
This is my sig.
This is great spam proofing, because nobody knows the answer to this.
Hey, if it stops you from flaming me by mail, all the better. :) If anyone really wants to email me, they can look up the city name (it ain't Toronto!).
Interesting that this has lit such nationalist sentiments on both sides.
Can't use nuclear weapons. Basically, what's gonna happen is that the Canadian government will offer better deals for US companies to move north. They will, taking US workers with them. In time, millions of Americans overwhelm the local Canadian population, eventually demanding the same sort of system that they left behind. Finally, a few provinces that are overwhelmingly American in population will go for independence and ultimately statehood. What worked with Texas will work with Western provinces.
Or, the alternative scenario is that the north western United States, including Alaska, Oregon, Montana, etc, says screw DC at around the same time BC says screw Ottawa. they form their own country, leaving a smaller United States, a smaller Canada, and a sparsely populated new country with a fairly big amount of land.
In any case, although every American boy's dream is to add western Canada to the United States, the way to do this is not invasion. All that does is fuel Canadian nationalism and thus make it harder for them to be assimilated. Better to just let our numbers work their course... spread the values up north, and let them volunteer.
This is my sig.
The effect of MS moving to Canada would be the sudden removal of MS as an allowable product for use by the US government. Their rules of purchase say that they must buy from US companies.
It has a lot to do with where the taxes go, and a little to do with nationalisim and national security.
This would be an amazing loss to MS, as the Government also dictates what file formats are to be used in communicating with vendors, and those vendors tend to have the same policy in talking to their vendors.
Pin the spig.
So why are you all fleeing the country like rats off a sinking ship?
--Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
The British Columbia government would, in fact, dearly love to get Microsoft to move north. Even if they couldn't get all of Microsoft, they'd love to get some of Microsoft. Anybody working in economic development circles would dearly love to get Microsoft to open a new facility in his or her territory. So it's safe to say that BC economic development people are on board with whatever is going on here.
Microsoft isn't just trying to get the DOJ off its back. Microsoft is seriously, deeply, bitterly offended. Microsoft is pissed. I'm not in Seattle, I'm on the East Coast. But all the Microsoft people I know are--to a man--convinced that this whole case is a sham. It was orchestrated by their competitors (particularly Oracle, who is next to get clobbered by an almost-as-good-at-one-third-the-price product) and run by the Democrats. If, in their view, Microsoft had been paying off politicians all these years (as Silicon Valley has been faithfully doing) this case would have never happened. (Mind you, this is their view, although I agree with it.)
[Don't flame--stay with me.]
Microsoft doesn't need to pick up and leave--they just need to make it clear that A) they can, and B) that there is a credible offer within a reasonable commuting distance where they can move to.
British Columbia fits the bill nicely. Lots and lots of Microsoft employees vacation in the San Juan Islands (which stretch from Anacortes, Washingon to Victoria, BC). Lots and lots of Microsoft employees live north of Redmond, so the commute to the Canadian border isn't that far. All Microsoft has to do is buy a chunk of land right on the border, and enter "serious negotiations" with the BC government for some form of income tax abatement for American commuters and the lightbulb will come on for lots of politicians across the U.S.
The political ironies are just too entertaining: remember the threats about the NAFTA treaty? Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound" that was all those jobs moving to Mexico? The prospect of the world's richest company moving across the border to avoid U.S. regulation, taking 20,000 American jobs with it, would be hugely embarassing to the Clinton Administration. And, since Al Gore is already on record as being in favor of a breakup and in favor of NAFTA, it would hurt Gore politically. It would also, overnight, resurrect the Reform Party, which was last seen meeting in a phone booth in Minneapolis. They're about to nominate Mr. Protectionism his own self, Pat Buchanan. Pat's absolutely stark staring gonzo, but he's a terrific speaker--and he could take this and go bananas.
There would be two certain results: the Sunday morning political talk shows would cover nothing else for weeks; and Pat Buchanan would split the Democratic vote over protectionism. Bush wins the White House. The same George W. Bush who has publicly said that breaking up Microsoft would be a big mistake.
And in the end, Microsoft doesn't have to move. Sure, maybe they open a facility in British Columbia. ("Embrace and extend" UserFriendly, perhaps? Visual Dust Puppy 2000, anyone?) But they just quietly say that they're always talking to economic development officials in any number of locations, and they're intrigued by some of the opportunities in BC, blah blah blah. And quietly deliver the election to Dubyah--who then scraps the DOJ suit.
All they have to do is make the threat credible....
Who knows how these talks could have started. Maybe Microsoft initiated them with the thinking that many sports teams adopt when they are having trouble getting public funding for a new stadium. Threaten to move, show you have a few offers, and wait for the politicians to back down. We've seen it in Boston with the Patriots, and potentially the Red Sox. Its another strong arm tactic.
Think about it...M$ knows they are great for the US economy. They provide 20,000ish jobs, and those jobs provide so much per annum in income tax dollars. Add onto that all of the other monies they spend in R&D, other taxes paid, etc., and you have a pretty strong case to make for wanting them to stay. Its an interesting ploy...
I won't defend the Canadian healthcare system in general, but that's incorrect. As an anarchist who refuses to benefit from goverment stolen lute, (whenever posible -- I use public roads etc.) I openly pay my doctor in cash. At first they made a fuss over it, but eventually he and the receptionists got used to it.
What is illegal is for doctors to refuse OHIP (Canada's universal Medicare-like insurance system) payments. That means completely private hospitals and such are not permitted.
I actually heard somewhere recently that DeBeers is reliquishing its cartel in the diamond trade so that it can trade dierctly in the US. Apparently the huge market in the US was just too good to continue to pass up.
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The unspoken assumption is that somehow Canada would be a haven for MS. Why? Canadian law is no friendlier to monoplies then US law. Indeed the Canadian "Competition Board" is more active then it's US equivalent.
As to being offered a campus and tax incentives to move - what place wouldn't? The worlds richest person, the worlds most profitable company, a couple thousand millionaires on staff, the rest highly paid/highly educated professionials... Every province / state / locality in the world would love to have them decamp from Redmond and set up shop locally.
Is it likely? Well, it's not like they have particularly unique facilities. Boeing couldn't leave it's home because it requires an airport, hangers, and enormous custom machinery that is difficult and costly to move. On the other hand MS just needs a large campus with fast net access and rooms full of PCs.
Wht would stop them? First Canada is *not* the US and becoming a Canadian company would require some financial restructuring, a completely different set of reviews for US Gov't/US Mil. contracts, staff would require Canadian Work Visa's, business and employment law differ, contracts would have to be rewritten, benefits differ, etc. Individuals would be likely loath to move from their homes and country and probably jump ship en masse to other high-tech firms. The disruption would be extensive and Bill Gates does *not* like distractions.
Frankly I don't think this is much of a news story. You could probably and get the same story for Fairfield County Virginia, Durham North Carolina, Austin Texas, Cork Ireland, or any other place aggressive about importing high-tech business. MS probably gets several offers a year of varying viability regarding moving. Offering to toss in some relocation rebates or a 'tax vacation' is standard practice.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
You have a relatively high standard of living, but one would expect that in a huge country full of natural resources, and a tiny population. That the standard of living is not higher than it is is telling.
There are slums in Canada, but due to the tiny, largely homogeneous populatoin, they quite naturally are not as dilapidated as some slums in the U.S., although gentrification is remaking many of the U.S. slums into more livable areas.
don't need to buy health insurance, our taxes pay for that.
And you have shortages, and difficulty keeping medical professionals in the field. And waiting lines, sometimes weeks or more, for simple procedures. Oh, but maybe you'd just opt out, and pay a doctor directly for his services. BZZZT! Sorry, that's *illegal*!
but this drain is more than compensated for by well-educated foreign immigrants;
*This* is your answer? Rather than make the taxation regime more fair, just import people from poor countries that will be satisfied with the situation temporarily? I think these people will figure it out soon enough.
Sorry, you haven't convinced me. Any government, IMO, that takes from its citizens over half of what they earn is not a government of the people; it is a racket. And that goes for the U.S. government, too, after you figure out how much tax is paid between income tax, sales tax, taxes on manufacturers, Spanish-American War telephone tax, etc., etc. But it (U.S. and state gov'ts) still doesn't take nearly as much as Canada.
I don't mean to flame you; I just get really worked up about this issue.
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not into canada! nooooo! stupid british columbia and it's big mouth. ergh.
:)
But yah, one of the reasons that they arent here already is that we tax things to hell. So maybe they wont move for that reason too
They get Microsoft, we get Terrance & Phillip.
The provincial tax brackets for BC are:
$0 to $30,004 8.4%
$30,004.01 to $60,009 12.4%
Over $60,009 14.35%
Federal tax is:
$0 to $29,590 17%
$29,590 to $59,180 26%
Over $59,180 29%
Thus the absolute maximum income tax you will pay is 43.35%. And you're only paying this if you are a complete fool. There are a million ways to get tax deductions, most Canadians pay a fraction of this amount. In addition, you can put money into RRSP's thus deferring paying tax on them until, for example, retirement at which point you are earning a reduced income so can probably make a smaller tax bracket.
I've lived in California and Ontario, Canada. The standard of living is higher here, despite constantly hearing from my US friends about how bad our taxes are.
Obasan
If a tree falls in the forest, and kills a mime, does anyone care?
Sound's good to me, if that happens, the govn't can just deny the importation of MSFT products on the grounds that they are "too insecure" ;-)
-Mr. Macx
Moof!
Such a move would hardly be benefial to Microsoft's shareholders. Canada has significantly higher taxes, on both the corporation and its employees. This means Microsoft would probably need to raise their salaries to compensate for the difference, such that they could remain competetive. In addition, Microsoft would face a whole bunch of other costs, such as covering for employee relocation (in some form or another), Canada's employment law, legal costs, physical moving costs, associated downtimes, etc. On top of all these costs, this move wouldn't even really help them insofar as the antitrust case goes. Even if it would allow them to escape prosection on their non-US products (which is probably unlikely), the situation in the US would either worsen or remain the same.
On the other hand, if Microsoft where to stay, even the worst of the proposed penalties actually wouldn't be all that hard on the share holder (despite MS's assertions to the contrary). In any case, when I guestimate the incremental costs between moving or staying (and facing breakup), I'd have to stay. I suspect most share holders would realize this too; Microsoft's board would be begging for a shareholder lawsuit. Even if Bill Gates may want to stick it to the US, or even if MS may try to use it to put pressure on the DoJ, I just don't see it happening.
My only real concern is Microsoft using this with some sucess to pressure the government to backoff.
Well, the US never prosecuted a firm.
Shell trades with Cuba, and said up yours to the US government.
Shell isn't boycotted.
The problem with the US boycot of Cuba is, that they are the only one who boycot Cuba.
Most other country's allow trade with Cuba.
Including the EEC.
Could the two parts reassemble once they have safely moved over, or would the executives still face jail penalties if they did?
Say no to software patents.
This won't happen. The issues would be immense.
It wouldn't get them beyond the US legal system, unless they stopped selling their products in the US.
And how many of those 20,000+ employees are on H1B Visas? They can't move to Canada.
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Maybe this is what billy is hoping?
However, given the amount that MS spends in lobbying the US govt to get all those nice new laws (DMCA anywaone) and big contracts, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Just my 0.00001 cents..
-a-
Notably including the cost of real estate. Perhaps not quite as bad as Silly Valley, but real estate prices got bid up by folks from Hong Kong that were concerned about having a haven from the Communists.
Decent locations to work tend to be in the downtown, and access is controlled by about half a dozen bridges. Not exactly a good thing for commute times.
Throw an extra 20,000 people into the mix, and you'll see the traffic get worse, as well as watching a nice real estate price "bump" up, as something around $10B gets spent on real estate.
The choices are limited; MSFT would need a full-service airport nearby, which, in BC, forces them to try to stay near Richmond.
And remember, Gates loses, in such a move, his massive advantage, namely a state legal system that he apparently understands quite intimately as a result of growing up in a "legally oriented" family. BC law is not the same as Washington law, and that is likely to prove to be a jarring problem.
Of course, that provides another cost issue; MSFT would incur the costs of creating a sizable new "law stable" to deal with the local regulations.
Most entertainingly, this comes along with the demerit that a bunch of the former MSFT lawyers get discarded due to not being "Canadian-law-compliant."
Those lawyers are going to be none too happy about the change, and remember, they're lawyers. They're likely to sue Microsoft for whatever they can, and mutter things about "wrongful dismissal."
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Microsoft employees are one of the least-paid in the IT industry.
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"I already have all the latest software."
Has is ever occurred to you that people call you arrogant, because, as a group, you could be?
Just because you've made good things doesn't make you "unarrogant".
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"I already have all the latest software."
Good point.
Pin the spig.
He shoots he scores...thank you A/C....
I actually don't want M$ up here...all that shit would just start coming up here...and we don't need M$ clear cutting up here to print a few billion M$ product boxes...
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gautier
And just how much would US trade restrictions hurt Microsoft? I don't think MS would be protected by NAFTA or the WTA, since they were found to have broken laws in the US. So maybe the trade restrictions would include a _huge_ increase in prices, or a restriction on mergers (they can't buy or merge with American companies, only Canadian companies--watch out Corel!), or maybe restrictions on the quantity of imports?
I think the US government would really show its teeth if this happened, since it would feel like a violation of our extradition treaty with Canada.
On the other hand, would MS get away with the same crap in BC that they got away with here? Not hardly. And remember that contract workers bruhaha a while back? I would expect that a more social country like Canada would respond much stronger and faster than the US would. Of course I'm speculating.
And MS says a reorg would be hard and disrupt business. What would happen if they moved most of their developers, or even just reincorporated elsewhere? I expect it would take a long time to prepare, and a long time to execute. There would probably be a lot of changes in employment laws, trade laws, marketing laws, tax laws, etc.
Maybe anti-pollution laws would stop the move, anyway. It would be like dumping US toxic waste in Canada.
-Paul Komarek
My home water comes from a US aquifer, and in my previous home, I could easily drive to the reservoir that fed my water system. Can't speak for everybody...
Thanks for playing 8^)
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
If they all moved then the economy in the Seattle area would start sucking. I for one live in the Seattle area and what not like to see that happen. Microsoft and their employess pay a lot of taxes and use a lot of goods/services here in Seattle. We would lose a lot of businesss.
"but due to the tiny, largely homogeneous populatoin, they quite naturally are not as dilapidated as some slums in the U.S."
What utter tripe! Have you ever been to Toronto. Presumably not. It now has a population of 4.5 million. That's more than the whole of the state of Colorado. Compare downtown Toronto with downtown Denver and you'll see a huge difference. Although things have revitalised a little in Denver recently, it's downtown is really quite depressing.
Toronto is far from homogeneous with over 75,000 Chinese. Probably half of it's population is of foriegn descent (and I don't been British either). Vancouver has the second biggest Chinatown in N. America. Unlike America, Canada doesn't have a cultural melting-pot forcing people to conform to the local culture. Instead they allow and expect immigrants to continue their own cultures.
At least a few fuel-air bombs. More powerful than the bombs dropped at H&N in '45... and less radiation. Still a big mess.
Just get the good hockey players out first...
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Uhm, The post - office is run by the Federal Government, dolt. It's never had the NDP as its bosses (yet) - just Conservatives and Liberals. Also, It's a Crown Corporation that's been making money for over 5 years now.
Maybe if the NDP ran it in the first place there would have been no anti-trust to procecute...but I digress
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Well, moving projects (and companies) off shore to avoid laws, (stupid and others) obviously is a double-edged sword. If people can move cryptographic projects off shore to avoid US juristiction, why shouldn't Microsoft do exactly the same? Please avoid to be hypocryts in these matters... Hey, I would offer MS good tax/law deal to get them to my country, 20.000 jobs bring lot of taxes :>
J.
This just proves that they AREN'T journalists who SELL OUT to the common way of d01n6 T|-|iN65!!
Never call a man a fool. Borrow from him. * -** *-** --- *-- - **** * *-*
Yes, homogeneous. Do you have anywhere near to the ethnic minority population levels as the U.S.? I think not.
Sorry, but you are wrong. The ethnic minority levels in Toronto are expected to reach 50% within the next 5 - 10 years. It is expected that Canada will be the first country to change its 'colour' in recent times. (ie. whites will go from being the overwelming majority in 1900 to a minority by 2030)
Not because of the nature of the people, just because when you have a large groups of people with foreign cultures clustered together, it makes for a more balkanized culture, where people don't share the same values, and makes assimilation into the mainstream culture more difficult.
Instead of the American idea of a "melting pot", Canada has opted for a "cultural mosaic" where people *do not* assimilate into the mainstrean, rather they keep their customs and values. This approach has seemed to work very well. Our crime levels are no where near that of the US, where prisoner population per 100 000 people is nearly 6 times higher then Canada's rate(which is unfortunatly is still much higher than Europe's rate)
Actually, Ford moved a Factory to Canada, because of their health care system.
Ford bean counters calculated that difference in the cost of health care between Canada and the US would shave off nearly $700US from the cost of the car (I don't remember the model) that this factory was to produce.
I favor Laissez Fare Capitalist Government mostly, but don't forget that each flavor of Democracy (really a continuous range from Capitalism to Socialism) has advantages and disadvantages.
If you combine Health Care Insurance costs and Health Care costs. Our capitalist way is less provides basic care less efficiently. It provide high end care with greater quality though.
Just a trade off we learn to live with.
-- I am not a fanatic, I am a true believer.
Marc
your subject line, dear friend, is bad english...*that what* they don't teach...? what in the name of heavens is that phrase, you illiterate, bad-writing, loser moron? Or, as they say in science, you retard...and how do you know I am fro Uganda? Not only are you a retard, you are also a racist and a coward...do you really like your life? You know that racists don't belong to /. they belong to KKK rallies in Bumblefuck, USA.
Ah yes, i also remember being the only one out of a group of about 4 or 5 firends who laughed at that. Still, my friends arn't geeks, so i guess that's o.k
Syllable : It's an Operating System
As a linux partisan, I want to beat your company into the dust - by fair competition. A rigged game is no fun, and no fair either. I totally support the position that you should be able to do as you wish with your own OS. Move, and show those pesky USA antitrust people exactly what "globalization" means :-)
>We (Canadians) don't need to buy health insurance, our taxes pay for that.
*cough* BullSh_t *cough*
Alberta health care $408 per year (manditory).
Dental not covered.
Blue Cross to cover all the stuff health care does not. Cost = ??? (I'm not a subscriber)
Restrictions on the amounts paid for Chyropractic and other services. Once you go over, you pay out of your own pocket. Been there done that.
>There are places in your cities where it is not safe to go ever; this is not true here.
Vancouver's east side?
-- Spammers: My E-mail server is in California. Consider yourself warned.
- Split up the US operations
- Move the accounting division or whatever it's called to Canada
- Have each US component company partner with the accounting division in Canada
Does that work? Then they wouldn't have to move as many people.Hang on a mo, who's the Canadian head of state?
Syllable : It's an Operating System
You have NO IDEA how good our banking system is until you move to the States like I did.
Take those service fees, double them and then remove every service that is normally provided by the bank and you're almost there. Maybe add in a little lost deposit or expired bank card action and you've pretty much got it.
Hotnutz.com - Funny
I'm not being condescending - you're just plain wrong. Sorry. You are the one making arrogant presumptions here. Recall, I -live- in Canada (and have lived in the United States, and 6 other countries as well).
Statistics Canada 1996 minority figures.
2.7 million individuals with French only backgroundspeaking. This figure is probably low. If you are not aware of the ethnic related problems in Quebec, I don't know where you've been. In any case, that's close to 10% of the population. Sum the 1996 figures for those with Asian origins and we get: 1,968,465. 1996 was prior to Hong Kong's reunification with PRC, this figure may have as much as doubled since that time. But lets say it hasn't. That's still another 7% of the population. Summing some of the other 'single origins' groups together yields another 1,225,630, 4.2%. So without accounting for those with multiple minority origins at all we're looking at over 20% of Canada's population representing ethnic minorities. Even with this very naive figure that's one person in five. Not exactly homogeneous, eh? In major cities such as Toronto, I would say it's more like 1 in 3, and in Vancouver 1 in 2.
Regards,
Obasan
If a tree falls in the forest, and kills a mime, does anyone care?
Would the moving costs plus payroll increases be worth the benefit to not be broken up? That would require MS economists to calculate the economic advantage of their monopoly position. Now that would be an interesting document for a future subpeona.
DB
With Canada's tax system, imagine the chunk of change that would be in tax revenue? I can see why they would want them to relocate there.
I can see it now: Microsoft buys Canada, lays off all of us, and changes the name of the country to "Microsoft Nation 2.0".
Nation 3.0 will follow the next year, but it will be bigger, buggier and more expensive than the original. We'll be forced to upgrade, though, because Nation 3.0 passports cannot be correctly parsed by Nation 2.0 immigration officials.
At least one thing won't change: whenever we complain to our government about social and economic problems, they'll tell us that a fix will be included in the next upgrade. And said fix will still break a bunch of other things that used to work just fine. I guess it won't be so different after al
There's no such thing as Scotchtoberfest!
let me understand...who is *the* troll, or who is *a* troll? What is your question exactly?
... so you can expect they'll give them all the help they want with relocating, visas, loans to set up buildings, etc. etc.
The only hassle really would be the tax - but their taxes are a drop in the ocean to MS.
then institute a huge-ass import tariff on all Canadian software products. Easy.
If they should move anywhere in Canada, it should be to Quebec; assuming they escaped any legal penalty (which is a big assumption of its own), they'd give Quebec the economic cash cow they need to secede for real. And afterwards, they could hope to have all the political influence in the world.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
and a hoard of other consumption taxes?
George
but canada is part of the commonwealth, there is no empire anymore
I was just going by what was listed there.
--
>and those vendors tend to have the same policy in talking to their vendors.
Exactly right. We do sub-contract work for a major US telecom carrier and their contract with us requires the use of Word, Excel, PPT, etc as standard file formats. When asked why this is, their response is because of US Govt work requires it, so their corp standard is Microsoft, regardless of govt work or not, just to keep it the same. Loony.
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
uh... Canada itself faces breakup. What they heck to they know? :)
Ouch.
--
Homogeneous? You obviously don't have any idea what you are talking about. Canada has it's problems, but so does the US. I won't advance Canada as being a "better" country than the United States, but most of your points here are complete nonsense and reflect the fact that you are basically talking out your ass. (Unfortunately not uncommon for slashdot users...)
Oh, and the country being large makes things MORE difficult, not easier. Trying to maintain infrastructure over the huge distances in Canada is a major strain on government funds. European countries have it easy in this respect.
Obasan
If a tree falls in the forest, and kills a mime, does anyone care?
The problem with that is that companies are not going to scrap their investments in MS products and compatible applications. Whether MS is in Canada, the US, or their own death star, they have a "death grip" on the industry. Arbitrarily speaking, this is not completely a bad thing. Even being a big Mac advocate/ windows hater, I can recognize the benefitsd of having a homogeneous computing platform. It may not be ideal in all cases, but it works for most people. Safe to say, even if they leave, MS isn't going anywhere.
All the good hockey players are already in the US...since there are...what...only 4-5 NHL teams in Canada now.
yes, right, you yellow-bellied anonymous son of a bachelor....i need to improve my punctuation and capitalization(its amazing, you *actually* know two words with more than 2 syllables, aren't we feeling bright and intelligent today)...and you just need to work on your etiquette and IQ, besides your bad english, crude postings, ill-informed opinions and a racist bent of mind. Muhahahaha.
One word: NAFTA.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
And all of the (now required) French text in Windows will have to be in a twice as big font in Quebec!
For you non-BCers, it is important to realize that this government has been riddled with scandle, and they are grasping at anything which might prevent them from being obliterated in the next election. They have started a number of expensive boondoggles which have cost this province dearly, and one almost expects them to try a "hail Mary" play now.
Please do not expect them to behave rationally in the twilight of their regime. They weren't particularly rational when they came to office.
With apologies, Bobzibub.
they'd be an import product from a country you have a comprehensive free trade agreement with (that means no duty on import baby)
don't worry - it'll never happen
there are lawsuits in the pipe in canada against MS too
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
Hmm This wouldn't work for M$ because if the companies are split up, they would not be able to collude for 15 years (i think).
I think you are missing the point. A BC "trump card" WILL influence a US antitrust ruling. In other words:
Don't mess with me or I'll take my ball home to BC and see what that does to your economy...
Twelve-and-three-quarter inches. Unyielding. This wand belonged to Bellatrix Lestrange.
Commonwealth, Empire, same thing for us Brits. Empire just makes us sound more like the Colonial bastards we all know we are....
Syllable : It's an Operating System
What MS might not know is that British Columbia has a New Democratic Party(read: socialist) government. If they think the DOJ is bad, just wait until the BC government makes MS a government-owned corporation.
Their products were crappy as a private company - just wait 'til MS is run by the same people as the Post Office!
hoser: Slashdot reader since 1987.
You're not from the Committee for the Moral Defense of Microsoft by any chance, are you?
(Oddly enough, I don't think they were a MS astroturf op, but rather overly enthusiastic Ayn Rand cultists.)
If a tree falls in the forest, and kills a mime, does anyone care?
NUKE the USA!
-- And when Justice is gone, there is always... Force. --Laurie Anderson, "Oh Superman"
Because that's not how it works. If your computer is so powerful how come it doen't program itself? :-)
-=Maggie Leber=-
...I think I speak for most Americans here when I say it's time to
N U K EC A N A D A ! ! !
// zyqqh
The EU is very carefully watching the Microsoft trial, and will almost certainly take their own actions if not happy with the US's actions.
Ahh yes, but with that you get access to our wonderful Healthcare system!
You're joking, right? I mean, it's good that the people who can't afford insurance can still get healthcare, but since EVERYONE gets it free, it's way over abused.
I think I might need stitches in my toe right now, but I don't have time to wait in outpatients at the hospital for 3 hours for some nurse to tell me I don't need them.
People go to the hospital for hangnails. They don't care. As soon as anything -- the tiniest little thing -- comes up, off to the emergency room. "I twisted my ankle."
I had mono a couple years ago. Went to the doctor, she told me that I needed to have bloodwork done that night, after the blood clinic was closed, and the only place to do it was in outpatients.
I waited for 2 1/2 hours for the bloodnurse to come and take blood for 2 minutes. I could've spent that time sleeping. Mono is nasty that way. I fought sleep the whole time I was there, and had a severe headache.
Anyway, my point is that if people aren't accountable (such as paying for insurance, and having insurance companies ask questions), then they will abuse the system. Oh, and that if you're actually paying for service, that is, if a hospital is trying to turn a profit, the hospital will see you as a customer, one they need to please, and not just "some guy who needs stitches in his toe".
Why do I get the feeling you are an MS employee working in Canada?
You're either ignorant of Microsoft's tactics of "innovation" or you're playing it downright stupid (which I think you do).
Hmmm, now that MS feels the DOJ's hose homing in on their re@r end, they start worrying... and not keeping their cool that much. And it's about time they got what they deserve, at least for once
I'm no longer fed up with MS Windows: I go rid of them
In the highest income tax bracket in BC you pay:
Federal tax: 29%
Federal surtax: 6.5% of 29% = 1.885%
Provincial tax: 49.5% of 29% = 14.355%
Provincial surtax: 49% of 14.355% = 7.034%
Total tax: 52.274%
And of course, there is 14% sales tax added on to pretty much anything you buy as well.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
1) Buy Cuba. I'm sure Fidel would sell for no more than $10 billion.
2) Move the company there, evict the entire native population (Or offer them work. They'll need an infrastructure.)
3) Erect a giant flying windows logo, visible from space.
4) Give the DOJ the finger from 90 miles off Florida's coast.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
>Vancouver's east side?
I have lived in Vancouver most of my life. I will go anywhere in this city at any time of the day or night to prove you wrong! Please note, I am just an average guy, with an averave build, and a bit of a beer gut. :)
Not everyone deserves a 320i
You probably lose even more if you move to a different country.
At least they speak english in BC...
Blame Microsoft! Blame Canada!
... "Be a beacon?"
Blame Microsoft! Blame Canada!
(Sung to "Blame Canada" by Trey Parker et. al.)
--
"Give him head?"
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft Ad
Considering the cost of living in Canada, now MS employees will be on par with everyone else. IS
Hmmm...
$1M/day
Bill could hold out for about 273 years then!
I heard MS (or maybe bill gates) has a major stake in one of the worlds largest satellite launching companies. What if Microsoft launch a space station from which to do business? It'd be a hell of a commute, but it would be worth it to work on the "Death Star".
------
www.chowda.net
------
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
My experiences at my last job were completely the opposite of yours. The Indian employees were just "playing the game": trying to get as big a salary as possible without actually working or having any real ability. Brown-nosing, etc to a sickening amount. The Chinese employees on the otherhand were amazing. Talk about coding-monsters with incredible ability. There were language and cultural issues, but that's to be expected - I'm British and I had cultural problems living in the US! Don't forget, Indians don't have the same language (and to a certain extent, cultural) barrier that the Chinese do: English is almost the universal language in India. Now for my new job: we have an Indian guy as our network admin, and he's amazing. We also have some other Chinese and Indian developers and they're all very good. So really, it comes down to find the right people at interview time: you can't judge everybody from one country based on your experiences of just a few.
"if i got it up enought to form a start up id say that at least 50% of the technical employees id hire would be india"
I think that you have to have at least 30 employees before you can sponsor for an H1b (or perhaps revenues above a certain amount). Hardly start-up conditions!
Use the evil Napster to find a copy of "Blame Canada" from the South Park movie, just in case...
I understand that and this was not really an attack on Canada as a viable population or country of strength and diversity. Sheesh. I only wonder why Canada would try courting Microsoft (which is having admitted troubles at the moment due to the practices in its own country) when they have a strong (well, I guess it has been stronger, but it is at least still viable) competitor to MS that is home grown. I would think that Corel would appreciate the show of support more than some monopolistic power from the US that probably won't take BC up on the deal.
Sorry for ruffling your feathers. Canada is a great place and I like it a lot. Just feeling sorry for Corel. That's all
But the collusion would be taking place in the islands, outside the US border, at the holding company level - aka the holding company gives the data to both sides, as the "development" companies don't even own the info, and are, in fact, under NDA not to talk to anyone! It's the holding company, which isn't in the US that talks.
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Don't mess with me or I'll take my ball home to BC and see what that does to your economy...
If Microsoft left the United States, it might be the best thing that ever happened to our economy. We can thank them for people being afraid of opening email, users blaming themselves for computers "crashing," a term that used to refer to actual physical hard drive head crashing, lost data, incompatibility between releases and vendors, etc.
It might be the best thing for our industry to have a more reliable computing platform from which to operate than to be continously conned by this monopoly. Less scrap in our manufacturing, fewer mistakes due to miscommunication, more networking from increased connectivity, and the possiblities are endless. We have a bully eating away at our communications infracture and need relief.
If all it took was bribing some officials, they could stay in the US.
"Microsoft Enticed To Move To Brisith Columbia"
Home of the Dark Lord?
--
Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
There might now be some "tax issues" that are not to MS's taste, but the remedy is as simple as making a new law, just for them. Happens every day in the US Congress: check out the tax code, see how many exceptions there are for specifically identified companies.
Take a look at those numbers again, Brian. It says the BC provincial tax rate is ~50% of *the federal tax rate,* not 50% of a person's income.
I live in Alberta, which has the lowest personal tax rate in Canada, no provincial sales tax and we're moving to a 10.5% flat income tax rate next year. And I lived in Vancouver for two years, dealing with the differences. So I agree with you that BC taxes are too high. But to characterize them as 60% is just absurd.
Cheers,
Rikardon.
I went to it over in Hillsboro OR...right next to Intel Ronler Acres...at lunch and the place was packed with Intel employees...well at that point in the film...everyone busted out laughing...except the dudes from Intel.
Moderate me down...it's off topic...but I'm tired and it's friday.
I've got it. Add a category to the moderation list: "learn how to spell."
I used to want to be somebody but then I realized I wasn't somebody material. -- Anonymous Coward
The figures given are for provincial income tax which is calculated as a percentage of federal tax, not a percentage of your income. "Personal income tax rates are expressed as a percentage of personal income tax rates determined under the Income Tax Act (Canada)."
As a Canadian, I find it disturbing that the BC gov't is willing to support a company such as Microsoft, when then already know the manner in which they operate.
It kinda seems like wishing for lung cancer!
-Ben
Say what you mean, mean what you say! But please know what #$@% you are talking about!
A break-up may well be a good thing for consumers in general, but I can't help but feel it's a bad thing for the open-source movement.
Linux and/or the free-*BSD's were (IMNSHO) about 2-3 years away from complete domination of the desktop and server markets. That, of course, will still happen, but if the U.S. government succeeds, it will take most of the credit, and proprietary software companies will wholeheartedly concur.
I don't believe the courts have that power, but a Gore administration (at least) might push for that, though they'd have to find some hole in NAFTA to be able to get away with in.
Seems appropriate. Seen the MicroSith web page? It also compares NTie with the free Jedix OS.
>Oh.. on another note.. this doesn't save them >from the US courts at all. I mean, the US courts >can just as easily forbid the import of MS >stuff.
Oh, and that would make the average consumer just pleased as punch, becuase that would OBVIOUSLY make thier lives much better.
Remember, to appear rational, you must remember that this is for the benefit of the consumer, not just becuase it would be neat to destroy MS. Once you start worrying about MS more then the consumer, you are just another anti-MS zelot, and everything you say is just 'the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind.'
--knick
This is obviously an attempt to blackmail the US government - "if you punish us, you'll lose billions of taxes". Let's see if they'll give in to that, or if it's going to put the last nail in Microsoft's coffin.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Evaculate?! At our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.
The taxes in Canada amount to 54% of the gross dollars you take in. It takes until June 16 every year to pay off the year's total tax burden, then the rest of the year's income is your money. We have amazing social freebies for our populace, including free medical care and more than enough civil servants to go around. Our medical system can not afford to pay the best doctors; they all move to the USA. M$ would generate a lot of tax dollars. The tax dollars would make Canada solvent again. We could pay for our amazing social service freebies. Bring the monopolists in! As an added bonus we will cripple the way M$ does business. We know how to cripple businesses here in Canada. See Digital (deceased), Avro (the Arrow), Corel (dying), AT&T (held in check), Edmonton Oilers/Montreal Canadiens (once mighty hockey clubs), etc. Yeah, let them in. Plus, any Canadian company that tries to compete in the biggest league will always lose talent to the lure of the strong US dollar. See Edmonton/Montreal hockey failures above. Yeah, let them in. M$ will lose their best and brightest to the rich US offers as soon as the money needed to even out the salary finally sinks in. We will show you how anti-capitalism works.
Where the only monopoly we support has a Boardwalk and a Baltic Avenue.
MS opens a division in the US called MSSales. Want to break them up? Sure go ahead. It's a meaningless act. You have 3 sales companies that sell different MS products. MS doesn't care. With regards to 20K employess moving, it probably wouldn't be that hard to coax people into moving, or find other people who are willing to.
Marc
I honestly hope this happens. I have absolutly no problem with huge corporate monopolies as long as they cannot pass and enforce laws directly. I remember a few years back some polititions in the US were getting pissed off because Walmart was selling pajamas made in Cuba in its Canadian stores. The US was arguing that Walmart should not do this because it was an american company. The end result is that Walmart is probably still selling those pajamas. Its not easy for one country to enforce its laws on another countrys soil if that country chooses not to co-operate. The options left are to either let the issue drop or call in the army. If Microsoft does move to Canada, then it will probably remain as one company, though its operating methods will probably be monitored differently here (in canada) then in the US. END COMMUNICATION
I think it would be insane to move a company the size of Microsoft to a new state, much less a new country. 20,000 employees is an awful lot of U-Hauls.
What isn't so silly is if the company gets split up. Take a smaller chunk and move it to BC. There's a great advantage to having lots of small "divisions" all over the world rather than one giant software factory. They are:
- The illusion of being less large
- Can respond more to local software markets
- No one government authority has control over the entire company
But I'm biased, I live in Vancouver and write software - all those extra jobs would probably increase the competitive pressure on the employers.
Having lived on right off of Hastings in middle of Vancouver's worst neighborhood I can assure you that east van is nothing like an american ghetto or skid row. I found the crime to be laughable, a little street prositution, some street drug trade, a few winos. Me and my girlfriend never felt threatened or scared, we could walk down any street anytime of night without fear. The only assualts I ever witnessed were a few fist fights among winos, and a wino-on-wino scissors stabbing.
As if there was ever an excuse to attack Canada!
Seriously, do they actually have to move the entire HQ, or do they just have to set up a satellite office, call it "M$ HQ" and be done with it?
Second question: if they still sell products in the US, does this get them out of the settlement?
Third, does the US gov't still buy from them since they are in a foreign country? I believe there are still laws that for military purposes at least, preference is given to US suppliers. Could be good for Apple, RedHat, etc?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
They are promising favourable treatment which may include a loan to build a new headquarters if Microsoft agrees to move its operations 100 miles further north, to the other side of the Canadian border
LOAN???? as if MSFT needs a fscking loan. I'm now embarassed to be a Canadian.
Go for it Bill, I bet that the govt would be changing to another operating system very quickly. Since of course it is the govt and military that insist on US made software and rightfully so.
Got Code?
It should be noted that Microsoft's favourite university for new employees, Waterloo, is in Canada. Many recently graduated Canadians would prefer to stay in Canada and therefore would work for less. Plus the fact that our social safety net would allow their employees take pay cuts (ie: same wages but in CDN$).
But the fact is, all the reasons people in this forum give why it would be a bad idea could be countered by the government. Microsoft would be such a boon to our economy that we'd bend over backwards to make them feel at home.
Having lived in Toronto I can say that the population there is far from "homogeneous" wrt to ethnic origin. It's probably closest to the major U.S. cities in that respect of any in Canada. However, when I say that I'm not speaking specifically of the inner-city areas that are usually the most dangerous. Toronto's core is actually quite livable for just about anyone compared to say... Detroit? or Buffalo? (the two closest major U.S. cities) Yes there are SOME of the same problems, but the violent crime rate in Toronto is a factor of 10 less than Detroit for the same population.
Your view on "assimilation" is typically american, but in Canada the melting-pot ideal is not the objective. Without the pressure to assimilate, those with different cultures are happier and get along with others better. There is also a sense of respect for those with differences, and sometimes THAT itself is the most difficult thing for immigrants to grasp... But if there are any common Canadian traits, that is one of them.
And yes I've lived the U.S. for a fair part of my life as well so I've seen both sides first-hand.
Didn't this already happen...?
Oh wait, it was saddam hussein.
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
How could anyone be so stupid as to offer an anticompetitive monopoly a home..?
it helps if its your anticompetitive monopoly.
There are slums in Canada, but due to the tiny, largely homogeneous populatoin, they quite naturally are not as dilapidated as some slums in the U.S., although gentrification is remaking many of the U.S. slums into more livable areas.
oh oh!! you are dumb
canada is the most un-homogeneous country on earth there nimrod
1 out of 10 americans were born outside of the us
1 out of *6* canadians were
the un ranks toronto as *the* most diverse city on the old planet there
new york city is a sorry-assed 2nd place
:^)
(because i put a smily at the end you can't get mad at me)
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
First off, BC is on the other side of the bloody country. And the lanuguage laws wouldn't apply to the software. And if you haven't noticed you can get MS products in practically any other language...you gonna bash Japan next? Secondly the US is constantly recruiting canadians in the computer fields cause we kickass at them.
Thirdly, you can keep Billy Boy and his DOJ crap where it is. We don't want em here.
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gautier
...the way wholly ignorant and, I must say, *stupid* Slashdot folk go on and on about taxes, low dollar and high prices.
My gods, people, Canada is consistently ranked as one of the top half-dozen countries to live in.
Yes, taxes are high. On the other hand, we don't get screwed up the ass by health insurance providers. I think that balances it out in the end.
Yes, our dollar is trades under-par for the American dollar. So? In real terms, it seems to mean that we can sell shit to the US cheaply, while American companies cut their prices to be able to sell to us. Except for gas and cheese, it doesn't seem like we're paying fifty percent more for our consumer goods.
Let 's take a look at the local paper: Spalding-brand men's boxers, $7/pair; Leatherman Micro, $30; Crest toothpaste 2-pack, $; bog o' Peek Freans $3; Gameboy Colour $100; GE 900MHz phone, $55; gallon of paint $10-25 depending on quality; decent sofas $400-800; VCRs $100-300; 25" Sharp-brand TV $400...
Not unlike the US prices on the same sorts of things. You see, the exchange rate isn't nearly so important as what your money can buy within its own country.
Anyway, just wanted to say I was rather appalled at the tsumni of ignorance that's come crashing through this discussion. Some of you are truly clueless, and should perhaps try to get outside your State, let alone your country.
..the southpark sequence in wich they bomb canada has to be rewritten now.
- --[... The secret of the hanged man, the smile on his lips... ]-- -
Umm, YES, we DO. If you're talking about rural areas, or smalls cities like Edmonton or Halifax, then perhaps the population is relatively homogenous. But Toronto, where I live, is the most ethnically diverse city in the world (source: UN). I believe the number of minorities in this area actually exceeds the number of whites now, and if you go out in public here, you certainly won't feel like you're in the majority if you're white. I have lived in the States, and there is MUCH less diversity there. You have your inner city neighborhoods where everyone is black or latino, and your suburbs where almost everyone is white, and that's the extent of it. Vancouver is almost as diverse as Toronto, and places like Montreal and Ottawa also have significant minority populations.
Not surprisingly, in those areas, you are starting to experience some of the same problems as we do in our cities here.
Wrong. In Toronto, as the diversity of the population has been increasing, the rate of violent crime has been DECREASING. If you walk down a street anywhere here, you will see people from all walks of life, living in harmony. In the US, crime and racism are rampant, you have slums and ghettos and places where it's simply not safe to go. In Toronto, there are a few poorer neighborhoods with higher crime rates but it's never bad enough that I don't feel safe walking down the street.
The UN consistently rates Canada as one of the most livable countries in the world, and we ALWAYS come out ahead of the US as far as they are concerned. What you completely fail to realize is that because of the large size of our country and small population, a more social government only makes sense. In the US, it's everyone for himself, and all about greed. That is not the culture in Canada. There are other countries like Sweden, Finland, France, etc. that tax just as heavily as Canada, if not moreso, and maintain VERY high standards of living. You don't see anyone in France working 80 hour weeks like is common in the US. The literacy stats in these countries are higher than in the US, and in general the people are better educated and more enlightened. To me, these things are much more important than making a lot of money while living a shallow life, which is what most Americans strive for.
Why is it that the Canadian economy has, in the last 20 years, genearlly seriously lagged behind the economy of the US? Higher unemployment, less GDP growth, you name it...
Sure, those leaving may not say that Tax Policy is a main motivator. To them, it's opportunity. A better job with a future, you know, that sort of thing.
The better job market and generally better economy of the US just might have something to do with Tax Policy, don't you think?
-Jordan Henderson
When you think about it, Microsoft's greatest assets ARE the imaginations of it's employees - and employees have legs. I would imagine a good number of them have already relocated great distances just to work for MS. What's a few more miles across the US/Canadian border? General Motors and AT&T didn't have this option in the 1960's and 1980's. Certainly Standard Oil didn't.
What I don't understand is the provincial government's offer of a loan to rebuild MS's facilities. Faced with a breakup, you would think MS would be paying THEM for the right to move over.
Lessee:
Air Canada
Canadian Tire
Bell Canada / Baby Bells
Microsoft...
Now, if the BC government is trying to bait them to move, I guess it means that Microsoft would get special concessions (aka. subsidies)?
If Microsoft gets subsidies - whatever you want to call them and however you want to pay them - I'm going to create a stink of unprecedented proportions. Any ideas how?
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Hey maybe the big banks and M$ can partner, give M$ access to our accounts and completely eliminate their distribution channels!
---
Copyright © 2002 me
Not great for the hyper-allergenic.
And adding 20K people to the island would still be a rather costly process. They'd probably need an army of 1000 immigration lawyers to handle immigration...
Mind you, they'd be able to stock Nanaimo bars and avoid US drafts, which might make it all worthwhile!
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
That's fine, just expect a huge tariff on foriegn OS's.
How to spell 'do'.
...don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out of the country. :)
--
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
Canadian water comes out of many USA taps.
2-3 years is pretty optimistic. I'd hope so, but I think it's a bit of a stretch...
Of course, if M$ moves to Canada, the gov won't use a 'foreign product' on it's systems, so that would help the shift slightly... and diminish M$s profits a littl 8^)
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
When the going gets tough... the tough get going
Yeah, the name Uganda sounds funny to you, you fecus matter, but anonymous coward sounds funny universally...it means the following: 1. you are scared s@#tless to register 2. you are scared s@#tless to register 3. you are scared s@#tless to register There you go. Before you teach me, learn and heal thyself - you sick, twisted two-digit IQ, narrow-minded idiot. Not that I have anything against sick, twisted two-digit IQ, narrow-minded idiots :)
LOL. I know I program better when stoned...
--
Watching Southpark and 'Blame Canada' would never be the same anymore. ;-)
Microsoft already has offices in Vancouver, BC. They just have to expand them and make that their headquarters. Vancouver is not really that far from seattle, either IIRC.
Prime Minister Jean Poutine.
They are noticed as a monoply and are not allowed to operate in the U.S. Maybe this will be a better move for M$. Then we all can you GNU/Linux or BSD.
I didn't use the preview button, so get over it!!!!
Mike
I don't know about the legal issues as far as MS goes, but I think that they'd have a heck of a time getting 20K people to move to Canada. Any kind of major corporate move usually entains big losses in personel - can even the MS monolith afford to lose a big chunk of their engineering staff? Big companies that have done major moves even within the US have major losses - how much bigger will they be when you talk about moving to another nation? And what about immigration laws in Canada - are you going to try to get 20K engineers to become Canadians? Or are you going to try to replace them?
No, this won't happen.
A thousand pounds of wood moving at 300 feet per minute. Don't get in the way.
I don't understand why "Hemos" believes that Microsoft would be "forced to maintain a US subsidiary" or why another poster thinks that just because a company sells a product into the US that they are subject to US law. I don't understand how the US could do anything more than block imports of Microsoft products, and, even then, I don't know of an existing law that would mandate such an embargo. Somebody, please provide some pointers to the specific laws, regulations or court decisions involved. Thanks!
DOJ: "Split them!"
Microsoft: "What, me worry?"
Canada: "Move here!"
I looked into the abyss, and the abyss looked into me--and we both winked.
I would be outraged by any such kowtowing on the part of my government.
On the other hand, should Microsoft be foolish enough to see such a move as a solution to their current problem, they would quickly find that Canadians are far pushier about obeying the law, and the spirit of the law, than Americans are. And also far more vocal about it.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
IAAL also, and ditto on the disclaimer.
Hawk is right. Such a tactic would have no effect on the proposed split, contrary to the majority view expressed here by non-lawyers.
BTW, IMO, Hawk should be moderated up, so that all the non-lawyers who are speculating here can see his points.
Furthermore, even if MS left the US, this would not get them out of future trouble. Foreign companies that do a sufficient amount of business in the United States are subject to the laws of the United States and the jurisdiction of its courts. "Sufficient" is a wriggly lawyer term, but one that MS probably couldn't escape from. (BTW, this principle holds true in most countries of the world -- the concept is that if you avail yourself of the benefits of the laws of a jurisdiction by participating in activities there, you are also subject to its rules -- a pretty fair concept, on its face).
The question then becomes how such a court enforces its judgment on extra-nationals. Many of you seem to think that court orders could only affect MS product shipped into the US. Wrong! The powers of a U.S. federal court are vast, particularly if MS were to engage in criminal contempt of court by ignoring the judgment.
Do you know why indicted/convicted drug kingpins (and in the assumed scenario, MS would be little better in the eyes of US law enforcement) don't openly live in Canada and don't openly conduct their business in the U.S.? Because (1) the Canadians have treaty obligations, if not the desire, to cooperate with the USG in bringing lawbreakers to U.S. justice, including through extradition and the like, and (2) the USG has large resources devoted to tracking any "laundered" legitimate business activity they carry out in this country (and globally) and then freezing or seizing the assets involved.
MS would have a hard time operating without access to its bank accounts (and note that even the Swiss cooperate in matters like this - they only won't help other governments when the allegations are tax evasion). A company like MS must have access to the international banking system to do business -- they would have a hard time indeed if they had to rely on the Caymans to the point where they could only pay and accept money from other people with Caymans accounts.
Believe me, the USG doesn't tolerate public displays of disobediance to its laws. The more public and egregious the disobediance, the harder the government will come down on you. Often disproportionately and often to public approval (forex, witness the defiance of Elain's Miami relatives, and the subsequent force used to bring them to heel). For whatever historical reason, the U.S. federal judicary (though often not the political branches) commands an almost mystical respect from the American people. Any number of popular (at least at some level) causes have lost considerable credibility with the masses after a decision was made to defy the law, as interpreted by the courts (e.g., Elian, desegregation resistance, and to a lesser extent right-to-lifers).
MS and the DoJ both know this, and know that the full force of the U.S. government will be used to enforce whatever the final ruling turns out to be. That is why neither one of them is likely to be giving this British Columbia scheme even as much though as I just have.
Now that M$ has conquered everything in the USA, they can move to Canada and wipe out all the little insignificant tech companies. Besides, M$ would be admitting defeat. :)
hey!
you can't do basic math!
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
Aparently, they aren't interested. This Reute rs story quotes MS spokesman Jim Cullinan as saying:
'There is no truth to the reports of any intent to move the company,'
Why not? Because, he says:
'Microsoft believes we will win this (antitrust) case in the court of appeals and we are very happy here in Seattle. We believe we're going to win this case here in the U.S. court system.'
I think the real reason is that Bill only just completed building his multimillion dollar estate, and it would be a real pain to have to helicopter back and forth to Vancouver every day.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
We're all rushing to the U.S. so we can get shot by a 12-year-old.
I'm certainly not aware of that - true.
Canada accepts as many "landed immigrants" (resident aliens) and asylum-seekers as new citizens.
I would imagine the us has its house roughly in the same order. I think the INS probably is doing a better job of watching for illegals than we are. Wasn't the us berating canada recently over having borders that were too easy to enter illegally? anyway...
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
Add in the "federal surtax" and the "federal high income surtax", and remember that you pay provincial income taxes on both of those taxes. There are also provincial surtaxes for people deemed "rich".
There are also tax deductions in the US. I don't think Canadians can deduct the interest on their mortgages! And 401(k)s can get employer matching contributions, tax-free to the employee. RRSPs can't. (And your 401(k) assets can be invested anywhere on the plnaet. 80% of your RRSP assets have to be invested in the Canadian markets, which have historically underperformed US markets.)
Finally, with the Canadian dollar at about two-thirds of the American dollar, that "maximum income tax" bracket is reached at about $40,000 US. That's right, you're considered "really disgustingly filthy rich so you can have the hell taxed out of you" in Canada at the whopping sum of $US 40K. Sheesh.
In fairness to the original poster, the standard of living is probably comparable on both sides of the border - the cost of living is much lower in Canada, you don't need private school if you've got kids, and your (and your kids') medical coverage is "free" (in that you've paid for it with the taxes). That's a big equalizer.
But to say that the maximum tax rate in BC is 43% is just nuts. You want low (relative to Canada) taxes, try Alberta or Ontario. You'll roughly match California's tax structure -- but if we're talking about MSFT employees, WA has *no* state income tax, IIRC. On the income tax side, no jurisdiction in Canada comes close to that.
There's a whole lotta Canadian tax calculators at the Canadian sites for KPMG and Ernst & Young.
A truely barbaric nation is one that lets murderers go unpunished.
--Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
Ok folks, let's get this straight from right now. The tax estimates on the BC web page are based upon total taxes. Canada has so many different ways to tax you than the US uses that comparing just one or two of them is irrelevant. Canada has Federal income tax, Provinicial income tax(which is higher than the fed tax), 15 or 16% sales tax(which is applied to much more than it is in the US), about double the gas tax, and property tax. I'm sure that the estimate of 60% was an attempt to add all those taxes together.
I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your corporation. I've realized that you are not actually humans. Every human on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding corporations. But Microsoft does not. They move to an area and they multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way they can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Microsoft is a disease, a cancer of this planet. They are a plague. And the DOJ is the cure.
So true! Americans are still sending cheques by mail, instead of doing all transfers electronically.
If MS should move to Canada, it really creates other restrictions for them. If they start selling software too cheap for other companies to compete, they can be accused of dumping; they can have their products tagged for heavy import taxes; so, besides moving the people (which would really be a logistics terror), it would create plenty other legal problems for them.
But what really bothers me is that BC would actually invite MS over; I mean, they've proven that they're totally driven by the urge to make a buck, they've proven to be dishonest, predatorial, they've destroyed / dismantled any competing company that they've gotten their hands on (STAC for example), etc. The question that jumps to my mind is: "Why? Why invite a shark over for lunch?". So, any British Columbians wish to enlighten us?
-elf
the us has a comprehensive free trade agreement with canada - it can't impose tariffs on software
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
I think MS should move to the moon. It's tax-free, there's plenty of space for the MS campus, and is a good vantage point for Darth Bill to oversee his little blue world. Sure, oxygen converters would have to be installed, but I'm sure they'll run just FINE under Windows NT...
(Private note to linus: put an obscure bug in the Linux oxygen driver.. not that Bill would use Linux for such a mission critical task anyway..)
Any technology which is distinguishable from magic is not sufficiently advanced.
I think the big question is whether MS can handle the PR nightmare that the move would produce. It would be common knowledge that they left because of the anti-trust case and would pretty much be admitting that yes, they are an abuse monopoly regardless of how well the groom and pose that talking chimp Ballmer.
They'd quickly become more of a pariah in the mainstream press then they've already become quickly losing consumer trust. Hopefully they'll take the plunge, lose credibility, and give consumers something of choice in home PC OS's. While I'm fantasizing, they can turn the Redmond campus into a huge public park...
Seriously if they did move would the end user really care as long as they get their next version of windows under $90? Would the US gov put a tariff on imported OS's? Sounds like a lose/lose situation for the consumer.
"Microsoft Enticed To Move To Brisith Columbia[ Microsoft ] Posted by Hemos on Friday June 02, @07:06AM from the probably-not-going-to-happen dept."
Damn Americans.
Brisith Columbia? 100 milez from See-addle?
spam, spam, spam, spam, e-mail, news and spam.
And if you're wondering, don't worry. I don't own any shares of MSFT :-)
make world, not war
Yowza. 20K. That's twice as many employees as I had thought they had... but my figures are probably just from the 1980s. ;-p
I was wondering if they'd try to "escape" somehow, and it makes sense (for them) to try and do so. Still, justice is hard to escape. (I'm making sure of that in my troubles, and just wish I could make sure of that with MS!)
-- haaz.
Nice try, MS, but you might as well get used to the fact that you're going to be whacked but good!
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
canada is the most un-homogeneous country on earth there nimrod
1 out of 10 americans were born outside of the us
1 out of *6* canadians were
(long pause)
Nope, I just can't bring myself to do it.
However - Microsoft should be able to give Vancouver the kind of boost that would attract many techies back to their homeland.
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
If Microsoft moved out of the US. They could avoid Anti-Trust Litigation, but they would not be able to avoid US Trade Laws.
Specifically, Anti-Dumping laws. If they started giving products away for free to hurt US competitors. The US has laws to cause automatic retaliation agains the corperationa and country of origin.
If Microsoft had been a foreign company, then Microsoft's buisness practices would have been dealt with long ago. Microsoft has recieved a free ride, BECAUSE it is a US company.
-- I am not a fanatic, I am a true believer.
I installed ATI drivers for my ATI card, thanks, and Windows still sucks. When a company has to guarantee 100% uptime with redundant NT servers, why would they need to rewrite the fscking kernel? Because it isn't stable. What makes you so special?
-jpowers
-jpowers
Hello, Canada isn't some homogenous culture of lumberjacks and Inuit living in a place the size of Rhode Island. We have the approximate population of California spread over a landmass biger than the USA. Corel is based in Ottawa, Ontario. British Columbia is in, well BC. Besides which politics in BC is a form of entertainment; espcially for the economic refugees like me living in other parts of the country.
O.K, maybe not. But it could happen; you've all seen Southpark, right guys?
Syllable : It's an Operating System
Good point, but I still tend to thing that developers -usually under age 40 - tend to focus on their after tax disposable income. Having spent time in the military myself I can attest that socialized healthcare has some advantages but also some major disadvantages. Why be rich if you still have to wait in line?
Okay, so M$ moves to Canada. What then? Well, first and foremost, their prices would go up - they'd become an import product, after all. And if their prices go up further, it's just barely possible that some of the major manufacturers (forget induhvidual consumers for the moment) will find their products...less enticing. But finally, and quite entertainingly, Red Hat, Apple, and others could (rightfully) encourage people to Always Buy American: that's right, M$ would become the foreign menace. :)
Ahem... I wouldn't be surprised if 20% of MS programmers ARE Canadians! I know a LOT of Canadians working at MS already. Microsoft regularly raids the Canadian Universities for programmers...
I used to live in Bellingham, WA--about 80 miles north of Redmond/Seattle and about 45 minutes south of Vancouver.
Bellingham is the first fair-sized city south of Canada (Lynden and Blaine are tiny at best) so every weekend hordes of Canadians in campers descend on the back alleys and parking lots of B'ham to get some of our non-candadian-taxed, duty-free-if-you-stay-overnight goods (especially groceries). You wouldn't believe what this does to prices in B'ham--even 30 minutes south in Mount Vernon prices are radically lower.
Now put a bunch of overpaid, former (?) Americans with money to burn and memories of home into the equation: B'ham prices will suddenly skyrocket. Bellingham will become to Canada what Tijuana is to America.
B'ham is a nice town--I miss it. In a way, I hope the above scenario does play out--it will help me miss B'ham less...
--
Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
This echoes pretty closely what I was thinking. If MS moved to the Great White North, then the US wouldn't be able to split them up. However, as was pointed out, the USA could refuse to import the product. The fact that the American government wouldn't be able to use it would be inconsequential. The real impact would be that if the USA decided to not import the product, then Microsoft would stand to lose a significant share of its potential customers. There is no way that Microsoft would DARE risk that.
Although, if they did... I can see at least one of two things that could happen:
One, Microsoft would be forced to make some concessions on its product for it to be imported into America. The DOJ would get some of what they want in this case.
Two, the US government reverse engineers Windows themselves, rewrites it to their satisfaction and creates a competing product. Oops... reverse engineering isn't allowed under the DMCA. Oh well... just dissolve that act and let's get on with our lives.
Further, if MS were to move into British Columbia, it would do wonders for Western Canada's bottomed-out economy. (This is why, I believe, that the BC provincial government is willing to offer funding to that end. They can see that it will do them more good than it will cost them.) It wouldn't really hurt American cities like Blaine or Bellingham that much either.
So you see... it isn't all that bad.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I think this is just something M$ would like to fan the flames of ... merely to help them in their negotiations with the US government. PS It wouldn't be bad if M$ got kicked out of Canada altogether. True North, Strong and Linux-friendly.
(JUNE 2, REDMOND, WA) The Canadian government and Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates announced today that in exchange for $70 Billion worth of MSFT shares, Canada will now become a wholly-owned subsidiary of Microsoft. The deal includes all Canadian provences except Quebec, which will finally become independant, although they will only be allowed to use Macintoshes.
The next we know, Mexico will start trying to woo them. Maybe they'll try to get them to move to somewhere like, say, Juarez. Yeah, that's the ticket. Then Ross Perot will hear that giant sucking sound.
mmmmmmmm, Alright-ten
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
I thought Larry Elison (SP?) was the richest man in the world now???
--Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
Hey,
If Microsoft left the United States, it might be the best thing that ever happened to our economy. We can thank them for people being afraid of opening email, users blaming themselves for computers "crashing," a term that used to refer to actual physical hard drive head crashing, lost data, incompatibility between releases and vendors, etc.
Being in another country won't stop them writing shit programs.
Just my $0.02
Michael Tandy
"Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
Moving the seat of the company does not require moving all Seattle employees to Vancouver, just like the Banglaore Microsoft employees have to be in Seattle now. These are world wide companies.
You just move the upper managment, probably a few hundred people, and the rest of the company keeps running as usual. Ericsson moved it's HQ from Stockholm to London recently in this manner.
Didn't a bunch of Canadian Indians (Iraquois? Mohawk?) stage a revolt with semi-automatic weapons a few years ago?
That was the Oka crisis in the early 1990's. The Quebec government allowed a golf course to be built on some land near Oka, Que. A group of Mohawk claimed the land was sacred ground (may have been a burial ground, it was a long time ago). Mohawk Warriors showed up in support, set up barricades, and held a standoff. A second standoff took place on the Mercier Bridge. I believe those standoffs ended peacefully. Another standoff took place at the Ipperwash military base in Ontario; a group of natives claimed the land had been unlawfully taken from them. One native was shot and killed; there have been calls for an inquest into who gave the shooting order.
As for Quebec, even the Quebecois have become sick of the separation mess. The government there has been trying to incite separtist feeling time and time again, but I don't think they're going to pull it off anytime soon. Still, the Parti Quebecois (the ruling party) is pretty paranoid about English - ask a Canadian about the "tongue troopers" and Bill 101 sometime.
There's some East-West tension; Alberta, Saskatchewan and parts of Manitoba and B.C. tend to be more conservative than the rest of the country. Nothing vicious; the last really ugly conflict was during the last Quebec referendum (of course).
Beyond that, ethnic tensions aren't as bad here as it seems in the U.S. Perhaps I had a bad example in my early years; I used to live near Windsor, just across from good ol' Detroit. For the record, relations between the downtown area and the suburbs...stink. I'm pretty happy with Toronto. I feel perfectly safe walking downtown after dark, and people of different races and cultures do seem to mix peacefully. It feels weird going back home once in a while, because my home is nowhere near as ethnically diverse; I've actually become more comfortable in Toronto's ethnic mix than my old hometown's relative homogenaeity.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Which is, in effect, a form of subsidy.
So, the province of British Columbia is willing to make concessions that will, in effect, subsidize the most profitable corporation in the world.
Makes me so proud to be a Canadian.
Personally, I don't like Microsoft, but I respect them as a business. Their products are crappy, which makes their ruthlessness, foresight and luck all the more telling.
And if they want to escape a DOJ breakup by moving someplace that doesn't care about monopolies, that's just good business sense. But for [censored] sake, I'd hope that any government wouldn't make concessions to them.
As a side note, if you're starting a business and feel like becoming a monopoly, you do have safe refuge in Canada. Not only does Canada have the usual assortment of telco and cable company monopolies, but it's got a few more:
Air Canada - the federal government changed laws to allow them to become a monopoly.
Canadian Tire - about the only place you, as a consumer, can buy a fanbelt for your car. Service sucks, prices are high, and the fanbelt will fray and fail while you're on the 401 two weeks later.
Microsoft will fit right into the Canadian goverment's view of a healthy economy.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
http://www.cn nfn.com/2000/06/02/technology/wires/microsoft_cana da_wg/
Let me tell you the story of a man named Bill,
Beat up by the government; he's had about his fill
One day he's up here marketing his tool,
and he get's a call from a government fool...
Phone, that is. Email down; I love you.
So the next thing you know old Bill's got to bear
Folks keep saying, "Bill, move away from there"
Can-a-da is the place you oughta be.
So he loaded up the truck and he moved to BC
Canada, that is, Hockey stars, high taxes.
"The BC BillHillies!"
(cheesy banjo music)
Microsoft are a persecuted minority who are being forced out of their own country. You've got to feel sorry for them haven't you? :-)
Just let my imagination run wild, I wonder if US encryption export restriction may apply to an canadian company.
Can they take NT source code with restricted encryption routines with them to Canada?
I guess if they wrote brand new encryption products in Canada, they could export it anywhere, e.g. Cuba, Iraq, couldn't they.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
Keep in mind this is a province (like a state) not the federal goverment trying to get MS to move. Provinces have no powers over visas, immigration, or a lot of taxes.
Hey dude dont Dis my Hood!
I live right by Pigion Park. All I have to do is say "No I do not want to buy your Crack" and they say "Oh, sorry to bother you" Try that in East LA.
As to Medical... Why do busses go US->Can for medications and the other way for Surgery?
Moving to BC might help Microsoft open their
market in China by providing a better Chinese
version of Winblows.
As for getting away from our laws, think again.
Free trade makes it that it's almost irrelevant
whether you're based in the US or Canada.
On the other hand a foreign company violating US
laws could have their products banned. Free trade
doesn't shield you from persecution for crimes.
It is also relatively easy for Canada or the US to
have criminals extradited for trial.
That would be amusing though to see the new
BC flag with the union jack replaced with
the Microsoft logo.
So presumably a US company would go to Canada and buy copies of the Microsoft product, import them to the US as the property of the US company and then resell them. If the US company chose to rip out pieces and package in new things before reselling, could Microsoft get any court to enforce the license terms forbidding such changes? The violation would have occured in the US where the license is (presumably) illegal...
Been watching too much TV again, eh?
The fact is that violent crime has been steadily dropping in the US for about 10 years. New York City, while having a bit of an upswing this year, has had its murder rate decline to the level it was at in the 1960's.
As for racism in the US, it's also decreasing. Compared to 30 years ago, it's like a whole new country. And it's not like Canada hasn't had cultural/race problems, too. Didn't a bunch of Canadian Indians (Iraquois? Mohawk?) stage a revolt with semi-automatic weapons a few years ago? And what about the reasons why Quebec has wanted to bolt from Canada? How many English-speaking people bolted from the provence? It might not be over the color of skin, but it's still based on bigotry and discrimination.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Or Microsoft could just buy Cuba, as another poster suggested. Turn it into another Hong Kong, only with better weather.
Moving out of the US would in fact get MS off the breakup hook.
The US would then be limited to imposing restrictions on MS products imported to the US. I imagine this is exactly the approach the EU will adopt if they decide that MS has broken EU antitrust laws and that the US remedies do not address the issues.
I guess the US could also impose arbitrary large monetary fines on any wholly owned US subsidiary, forcing MS to either bow to US decisions or spin off the subsidiary as a separate company.
Yes, homogeneous. Do you have anywhere near to the ethnic minority population levels as the U.S.? I think not.
Per capita I think Toronto beats the US ass in ethnic minority population in condenced areas. 4+ million people, with very large chineese, greek, jewish, african, and east indian minority cultures among others.
Not because of the nature of the people, just because when you have a large groups of people with foreign cultures clustered together, it makes for a more balkanized culture, where people don't share the same values, and makes assimilation into the mainstream culture more difficult.
And so I quoth from a well known Canadian beer commercial: "I belive in diversity, not assimilation." Up here we don't advocate the "Melting Pot" that you people to the south do, we respect, enjoy, and benifit from people keeping their own cultures. Yes, Toronto is extremely balkanized culture wise, but it's also one hell of a city for it.
-- iCEBaLM
Gimme a break...
--
that's why their new OS code names are Whistler and Blackcomb ... maybe they don't just want to ski there :-)
If a tree falls in the forest, and kills a mime, does anyone care?
You should probably consider attributing this to Gary Larson, who came up with it...
Isn't this the same thing that all of the Slashdotters are doing when they say "I'm not going to buy any movies from you, Fox, until you quit supporting the MPAA!"?
I see nothing wrong with such a tactic in either situation.
--Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
BC has (or had, as of 1999) a majority government headed by the New Democratic Party, a near-left-wing organization... or at least it used to be near-left-wing. Spending too much time in BC can do that to you.
Somehow I don't believe Big Business fits in the plans of the NDP, with its pro-union pro-worker stance, in that province. Microsoft represents the penultimate in Big Business. In addition, the federal government in Ottawa is so far out of touch with BC I can't imagine our Prime Minister endorsing such a move.
Now here's a thought: Would one of the conditions of such a move be to form a M$ staff union? The thoughts of a unionized M$ are amusing.
Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
Yes, it has apparently had a huge effect on the work of lots of organisations trying to do humanitarian work in Cuba. Canadian, and especially Mexican companies have been scared off by the Helms-Burton law, and closed factories in Cuba (to avoid also losing their more lucrative trade with the US), making access to cheap building materials, farming equipment etc, fairly impossible. Various projects have been hugely affected by this.
Obviously the US government aren't going to be worried about humanitarian projects in Cuba . . . who cares so long as the voters in Florida are happy? But it's still utterly disgusting.
The US government's arrogance at forcing foreign companies to stop trading with countries they have a grudge against is more than a little frightening. (The official excuse is that they are profiting from land "stolen" from the US when it was nationalised (in accordance with UN rules on the subject) in the Cuban revolution. Which was HOW long ago?) So I wouldn't worry that the US'll feel unable to touch MS if they leave the country.
-----------
More is happening out there than we are aware of.
-----------
More is happening out there than we are aware of.
It is possibly due to some unknown direful circu
The act says that any company which trades with Cuba may not trade in the US. I believe that the directors can even be arrested for entering the US. So the US does consider it has the right to legislate trade between two other countries.
11.0010010000111111011010101000100010000101101000
The weather is much nicer, they are still within NAFTA, and if problems arise, they can bribe some officials ...
-Martin
SoftMaker Office for Windows|Linux|Android
Besides, now Microsoft is saying that it is happy in Redmond, no intention to move to Canada, so Bill doesn't have to liquidate his holdings anyway.
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
Even if MSFT was not based in the U.S. it would not prevent them from being punished for breaking U.S. antitrust law. After all MSFT was investigated by Japan for antitrust issues as well as an European Union antitrust investigation. In neither of this case was the fact that MSFT an American based company a savior.
British Columbia should investigate antitrust law before making such suggestions to MSFT.
I'd like to see MS just across the street from a Linux distro. (actually no, I live in BC, bad enough beeing this close to redmond) - tho BC is a great place to live.! If microsoft consideres this, which i doubt they will, part of BC's incentives would probally include tax breaks for MS (and employees) to live up here.
"Nyquil - The stuffy, sneezy, why-the-hell-is-the-room-spinning medicine."
If Microsoft moves to Canada, import taxes and tariffs would make the prices of Windows skyrocket, and our government would plunge further into debt because Microsoft operating systems seems to be the only operating system they bother using. :p
we could make a chocolate bar with nut clusters... no linux there.
Wait, you said NT, not nut. my bad.
----
Oh my god, Bear is driving! How can this be?
ADVENTURERS! - ANTIHERO FOR HIRE - CARDMASTER CONFLICT
If it would mean living in Vancouver, I'd sign up with Microsoft in a heartbeat. There's so many things about Canadia that just plain kick ass, and BC is gorgeous.
Anybody who thinks that M$ moving to Canada would mean a Cost of Living increase obviously hasn't tried to find a place to stay in Seattle lately.
-carl
. We've got computers, we're tapping phone lines, you know that ain't allowed - Talking Heads, "Life During Wartime"
But Toronto, where I live, is the most ethnically diverse city in the world (source: UN). I believe the number of minorities in this area actually exceeds the number of whites now, and if you go out in public here, you certainly won't feel like you're in the majority if you're white.
Wow, are YOU working from an inadequate sample.
Toronto may be the world's most diverse city, but the US has some of the largest minority populations in the world.
For instance, we have the largest Spanish-speaking population in the world, and it's not even our "official" language. (We don't have an official language.) You guys don't even have the largest French-speaking population, and it's one of your languages.
Go to Dallas or Miami and tell me about the US's supposed lack of diversity.
There are 11 million Cubans in the country of Cuba; there are nearly 2 million Cubans in Florida alone.
We have ethnic populations that rival their countries of origin.
--
"canadian dollar is about half the price of the US dollar"
No.
It is (on a bad day) about 2/3rds the value of a U.S. dollar.
I will gladly sell you as many U.S. dollars as you would like to buy for $2.00 Canadian.
The US could then (theoretically) impose tariffs on imported operating system software. I'm not aware if US has imposed tariffs against .ca products in the past century, so this could strain relations (though so might BC's offer) a bit.
.ca, we might need to apply the tariff to all imports, which would result in the strange situation where SuSe Linux would cost disproportionately more than RedHat Linux! You might even end up with a permanent kernel branching between the US and everywhere else. Which, uh, might be bad.
Raising a percentage tariff against imported software, especially on a product as overpriced as MS, could either kill MS's success in the US, or kill it's US profits (arguably still their largest market) by forcing them to drop the price.
I'm not entirely brushed up on profits. In order to let the tariff go through without annoying
But if it were just MS vs. the world, I would be thrilled about a Windows tariff.
--
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
Actually, this would only hurt those who live in the Redmond area. The Seattle/Greater Puget Sound area (where I live) is getting pretty diverse with a lot of startups and other big companies. Trust me, it wouldn't be that bad...
Boeing almost went out of business in the 70's and those who took advantage of the situation are rich now. Since most people were laid off, their houses went up on the auction block and folks who had jobs were picking up houses/cars and other assets for pennies on the dollar. Now these folks have like 10 houses that they own outright and live on a healthy rental income.
The same will happen with Redmond. All of those skyrocketing real-estate values will tumble very quickly and I'll be there to pick up some cheap houses. Given a few years, the hole that Microsoft left will fill in nicely and the only thing left will be the guy who bought the Gates mansion for $50.00 scratching his head saying, "What the hell just happened?".
One or two large companies puts your economy at too much risk. Especially a company like Microsoft who's intellectual property consists mainly of CD's and hard drives that can be loaded into a truck (or a few pieces of fiber). Now if Boeing or Weyerhauser were to leave the region, then we'd be in a world of hurt. Those guys collectively employ well over half of the Puget Sound workforce, making Microsoft's paultry 20,000 employees look like a whiny startup (and believe me, stock options aside, Boeing and Weyerhauser pay much better than Microsoft).
-Chuck
--
Quantum Linux Laboratories - Accelerating Business with Linux
* Education
* Integration
* Support
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
``Microsoft may have its battles with the U.S. government, but it's an excellent corporate citizen of Seattle. The suggestion that they'd move their headquarters to Vancouver would be wonderful if it were possible, but I just wouldn't put credence in it.''
So, they would welcome Microsoft with open arms, eh? Get the feeling that they would also welcome a big Colombian Drug Cartel if they brought enough cash into the local economy?
"The Cali Cartel has it's troubles with US Customs, but it's an excellent corporate citizen of Bogata. The suggestion that they'd move their headquarters to Vancouver would be wonderful if it were possible, but I just wouldn't hold my breath."
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
Maybe Bill & Steve will go on the lam to Canada and leave Windows behind. ... Nah. I don't think so.
Only if you got it inside. Didn't you see Armageddon? There kinda like firecrackers see...
Intolerant people should be shot.
Hey Bill Gates - take off, eh?
Like, those hosers will probably take everything and run off to the Great Whire North like a bunch of girls, and leave some silly-ass office in a shopping mall behind so you can say you fullfilled and legal requirements you have to stay in the states.
A fair amount of programmers smoke pot. Probably not the majority, but still a large enough amount that it ought to be into consideration. Now, BC has been producing some very high quality bud lately. I am in no way condoning the use of illegal drugs, just stating a correlation that programmers code better when content, and are often content when smoking it up.
Maybe it'd get Gates to relax enough that the coders could actually do their jobs and turn out some decent products.
Disclaimer: I in no way support Microsoft and generally view them as an evil, corrupt organization.
They can afford to buy Canada, sell back Montreal to the French speaking natives and then wait for their orbiting development center between here and the moon.
I'm not sure why any country would think that being home to Microsoft is so great. Microsoft doesn't have a lot of employees, and they are likely not to want to pay a lot of taxes wherever they move. Having them relocate into your community would just add a large number of rather wealthy individuals to a small area, which isn't necessarily good.
Canada is no longer a part of the British empire. Hasn't been for quite some time.
spam, spam, spam, spam, e-mail, news and spam.
That would be just wonderful! Stripped of the ability to break them up, the DOJ would be forced to resort to another measure.
Perhaps the "stake through the heart" remedy, which is my favourite: forcing the US company that remains to release all of its intellectual property to the public domain.
Then the tiny stump company that would survive in BC can do what the hell it likes...
--
Xenu loves you!
Bill Gates and his MS mother board a small raft and set sale on Puget Sound destined for British Columbia to escape the oppressive DOJ regime in the US. Midway through the voyage, the raft capsizes, killing MS.
Bill washes up on a Vancouver beach where he is immediately taken in by his long-lost Canadian relatives. Meanwhile angry DOJ in the US officials demand his return.
After months of legal rangling, climaxing in a raid by Canadian authorities on the home of Bill's Candian relatives. Little Bill is kidnapped out of his closet at gunpoint screming and delivered to DOJ officials. A nation is stunned.
Bill and his DOJ family have a happy reunion, while Bill's Canadian relatives petition outside the Royal Mounted Police demanding Bill's immediate return.
An appeal is filed, but the court decides in favor of the DOJ. In spite of this, Bill & his DOJ family are stuck in a two-bedroom ranch style home in eastern BC awaiting final appeals......
managers...why god invented purgatory
No, just the usual complete inattention to the language they're writing in. And if you mention it you're off-topic, and if they make 2 obvious mistakes in the same sentence then they say oh we do it on purpose, we're too cool to be bothered with spelling. I hope these guys don't actually try to write code. You just can't spell "malloc" as "mailocc" and get away with it.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
Hurray for NAFTA?!
I think that it is a good move on Canada's part. MS is a succesful company which would bring untold amounts of cash into the local economies and great revenue into their tax system. If the US is going to abuse and pick on a company, then I feel that a company should up and leave if it so chooses. I like MS, they have some good products, and even though I don't agree with some of it's business practices, feel that they should go somewhere where they are appreciated. I bet though, that it you were to conduct a study into the cost of relocating a company as large as MS, it would be astronomical (near a google dollars), and which is why MS will remain in Redmond.
--- RFC 1149 Compliant.
I've been saying this for a couple of years. It's close enough that a lot of the people would move - who do you think they have greater loyalty to, the US of A or the guy who made them rich on options?
:-)) gives them the means to take control of their machines and also produce more native-language stuff. And code written in ASCII-ized Hindi or Chinese will be damn near impossible for US security types to figure out.
Actually I thought for awhile they might move to China, since they both have similar management attitudes... what's better for a monopolist than a Communist country? "All computers WILL run Windows 2000... any non-conforming machine will be formatted immediately..."
But then the Chinese got the Linux religion, realizing they could do the same thing but not have to share control with Bill. Much better. I expect RMS and Linus to be given a medal by the Chinese and Indians at least, given that Linux (or even GNU/Linux
The revolution will NOT be televised.
The reason is twofold... First of all, for whatever Bill Gates IS, he is NOT a coward. He is highly competitive & motivated. He is not going to fold up shop and run for the border at the first (second, third, or fourth, for that matter) sign of trouble. Second... The appellate process WILL take years. (which probably will not factor in as heavily as the first reason). So dont get your hopes up, M$ is here to stay!
--- A question of my own--- If this happened, would the U.S. economy take a seious hit ?
The facts expressed here belong to all, the opinions to me. The distinction between fact and opinion is yours to decide.
Shouldn't Microsoft move to a more warmer place like Nicaragua or Belize or something? I'm sure they would feel much more at ease with all the bugs they have around there (real exotic ones :-)).
nosig today
The politics in Canada are slightly different then in the US. Pretty much all of our utilities (water/power/local phone) are monopolies. However, strict government regulations (and many, say, utilities review boards) keep the peace. If the US wants to lose such a large, sucessful company, it's their loss. Personally, while I use Linux, I wouldn't be sad at all to see such a large empoyer and tax generator. I think Canada's economy would benifit immensly (Microsoft bashing aside.)
And I don't think the US could legally block Microsoft from importing into the US. There is those crazy NAFTA and WTO rules that forces us, in Canada, to import the Ethyl Corperation's products, even though we want to block them because they are enviromentally unfriendly.
Just how I see it.
-legolas
(Moderators, please rate me not on what I say, but how i say it.)
i've looked at love from both sides now. from win and lose, and still somehow...
Hahah, whatever kid. You're probably just a troll, but if not, grab a clue.
Moving to Canada wouldn't stop the European Union's investigation of Microsoft. Of course, they're still investigating, not actually suing. Not yet, anyway.
--Mythos
Hey, don't give EDMONTON as an example of a Canadian city without ethnic diversity! I'm from Michigan, now living in Edmonton, and there's more diversity of culture here than even Ann Arbor or Detroit. A *lot* more. Huge proportions of Native, Chinese, East Indian, Ukranian, and other ethnicities and/or immigrants, and plenty of Germans, Dutch, Ethiopians, and people from other Eastern European, African, and Asian countries! It's the "Go West Young Man" (er, oh, is that a US expression?) or "There's Work in Alberta" thing, apparently.
I'd love it.
:-)
M$ would stay intact instead of metastizing and they could be tarrifed out of existence. (And don't think they wouldn't be. We're not talking about a few Amerinds smuggling cigarettes here.)
The couldn't be any sweet-heart deals with OEMs if the boxes have to come through cuctoms with prices listed on the boxfor every transaction (I don't see M$ putting Windows on the Web for free, though their vict..., uh, customers might!
Problem is that M$ has already thought of this and knows that they'd be cutting their own throats so they're about as likely to blight the BC lanscape as the DOJ is to cut M$ some slack. Still don't underestimate the stupidity of the lawyers who seem to be running the joint now.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I don't know how professional David Willis is but he should check the geo-political facts twice before writing something. I can tell you this storry is really badly reported and only smoke.
Here in Montreal, Quebec, we have build the multimedia city and have attracted many big players such as Ubisoft. The Quebec goverment is now investing 3-5 billions over the next few years in our e-commerce facilities to accomodate the new arrival of Nasdaq and hope to attract major players such as Microsoft, Dell and Compaq to name only a few.
This was a big blow to Toronto and Vancouver so I can understand they are now lobbying alot, but not because Microsoft is in trouble with DOJ.Do you have any Idea what the TAX BILL would be up here for MICROSOFT.....
Hey Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of it.
I mean it is one way to balance a budget right.
Oi! Billy you can Pay My taxes ANY day, I might even buy your damn products....Well.....Ok I won't.
Yes I can not spell...Wait....for a second there I almost cared.
http://www.theq.fm/pacificat/
As long as Bill pays the gas...
Cheers,
- Jim
I simply cannot believe that Canada is corporate-friendly enough for Microsoft. There taxes are higher, and they do not allow businesses to exercise near-complete control of their society.
It is also worth noting that this would be a rash move on Microsoft's part as they still have a reasonable chance of winning on appeal (no flames please, I call it as I see it). If a breakup is ordered, it probably will not be on the aggressive timetable of the plaintiffs (4 months IIRC). This would still leave plenty of time to "take off" if such is warranted.
-L
That is patently rediculous. What a bunch of tards. Are they too damn stupid to see that breaking up MS is a great thing to do? For shit's sake... the canadian government would be less eager to regulate microsoft than the US, and microsoft needs a spank!
Oh.. on another note.. this doesn't save them from the US courts at all. I mean, the US courts can just as easily forbid the import of MS stuff.
Why would Micros~1 want to move all of their US based employees? That makes no sense at all. There is no reason why they can't comply with the court ruling, leave one or more of the resulting businesses here and start building a new operation in BC. If they do business in the US, the US courts can touch them and they aren't about to give up a market this big. But the US government has little power over their operations outside US borders. And they don't need to give up their operations in Redmond to pursue that strategy.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Couldn't they set up some phony building in canada and /say/ they were working there, but just telecommute? Heck, couldn't they just tunnel right back to their desktops in the US?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Oh c'mon, Canada. You can do better!
In some ways, it seems strange that Canada is turning on one of its own like that. It makes sense from a business/tax standpoint with Microsoft being worth so much, but you have to wonder how Corel feels about news like this.
.02
Come on... they have been fighting the good fight (forget about your personal feelings about their distrobution for a moment) for years. For every one of Microsoft's "productivity" suite, Corel has a contender. Now they are wieghing in with an OS competitor (like I said, bite your tongue). They gotta feel a little down that they are getting no love from home in this way.
my
"You're sure you want to do this, eh?"
[Eh!] [Nah!]
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I encourage you all to email this guy and tell him what a stupid decision this is, both for Canada, and the world at large. Visit his page and say that Canadians don't -want- Microsoft there--they will only suffer as a result.
EMYL,
Consider this story:
From today's wire service:
A young Canadian boy is being held in Miami today by a group of Canadian expatriates who refuse to let him be returned to his father in Canada.
The boy, one Ernie MacDougal, was visiting Disney World with his mother when she fell out of the ride on Splash Mountain. After what some say is a miraculous survival aided by members of the Miami Dolphins, he reached the end of the ride, where he was interviewed by Disney security. Asked repeatedly where he was from, he kept answering 'Saskatoon Saskatchewan'. Taking this as the babblings of delirium, the boy was turned over to Dr. Phil McCracken, the physician on duty at the park at that time.
As luck would have it, Dr. McCracken is a Canadian who had himself fled the tyranny of having the Canadian government tell him how to run his medical practice, and had come to the United States in hopes of having large publicly traded corporations tell him how to run his medical practice.
Recognizing that the boy was a fellow countryman, his family swept the boy away to their home in Miami and called the media to announce their intention to prevent the boy from being returned to a country where he could not be free to take a gun to school to defend himself against the other 6 year old kids with guns.
Other Canadian expatriates have formed a human shield around the house, linking arms and shouting 'Hell no, he won't go, eh'. The boy's father in Saskatoon has issued a public demand for his return, but as yet has shown no sign of willingness to travel to Miami. State department experts on Canada believe that he is not allowed to leave Canada until he manages to complete a multipage passport application in flawless French.
Ironically, the boy's mother survived her fall but was later found shot in the Disney parking lot, where muggers mistook her for a German tourist.
Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.
What do you know about Vancouver's east side? I live there. Sure, there are a couple blocks that are not what i would call safe but they pale when compared to detroit/compton/watts (sp?) Do us all a favour, don't speak on subjects you know little about. penman
If a tree falls in the forest, and kills a mime, does anyone care?
By refusing to buy films, individuals are trying to use their moral objections to what the MPAA does to make them change their policies.
The Helms-Burton law has NOTHING to with anyone morally objecting to Fidel Castro/communism in Cuba. As the US government have recently shown by renewing trade links with China, they don't object to trading with communist countries if it helps their economy. They are simply pandering to voters in Florida, and various rich companies which are anti-Castro by carrying on a 50 year grudge. I'm sorry, but if you think that the Cuban embargo, the Helms-Burton law etc. have anything to do with a moral standpoint on the part of the US goverment, I would have to disagree completely. Immediately following the Cuban revolution, the country offered to reimburse the US for their land which was nationalised (the correct way to go about things, according to UN guidelines). Kennedy refused to talk to them. Yet now they claim the Canadian (or whatever nationality) companies are profiting from "stolen" land.
I can see your point - it's using your influence to object to something you disagree with. But I feel that the US govt. attempting to do this wrt Cuba is petty, and purely for their own advantage, not to try and improve the situation in Cuba. Feel free to disagree, but I find politics in general fairly objectionable, and so I find it fairly impossible to believe that motivation for this law was anything other than financial or political.
Apologies for being idealistic, but although I feel that individuals should have the right to use their purchasing power to attempt to influence companies/organisations, when powerful governments attempt to use their economic power to put foreign companies in a difficult position, it seems wrong to me. In my opinion economic sanctions tend to do more harm than good. There are several examples (Cuba, Iraq) where it's clear that they are only harming the poor of the country, and not the rich who actually run the place. They don't cause the people to revolt against their govt., they give more power to the govt and weaken the people. There may be cases when they do have the desired effect (depending on what you believe the desired effect is), but it's been clear for many years that this isn't the case with Cuba. And even if I agree with countries trying to get across a moral standpoint by using economic force (which as I said, I'm doubtful about in quite a few cases), I don't for a minute trust the US's motives on this one.
-----------
More is happening out there than we are aware of.
-----------
More is happening out there than we are aware of.
It is possibly due to some unknown direful circu
It's actually necessary to consider the issue more deeply. We (Canadians) don't need to buy health insurance, our taxes pay for that. Curiously enough, our fresh vegetables, mostly imported from California, cost as much in Canadian dollars as they cost in Califoria in US dollars. Many other products such as housing are also less expensive.
Our taxes are high compared to the US, but (as the UN has time and time again stated) we have a high standard of living, and have no slums nearly as bad as what is very common in the States. There are places in your cities where it is not safe to go ever; this is not true here.
So really it balances out pretty closely. The "National Post," a right-wing newspaper, continuously demands lower taxes to stem the "brain drain" of emigrants to the US, but this drain is more than compensated for by well-educated foreign immigrants; also, surveys of those leaving suggest that lower taxes are not a high priority for them.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000602/n02100 038.html
Not only would they have to pay Canadian and British Columbian income (~50%?) and sales taxes (14%?) plus the higher cost-of-living, but the DoJ would still be after them!
:) But if that goose is foreign, the gloves come off and the battle axe gets swung.
I don't think it matters under US law _who_ has the monopoly, just that one exists and it is being abused. A judge would still order remedies although ordering a breakup is less likely. What he could and would order would be forced licencing. Congress would likely slap on tariffs, and the whole mess would go to the WTO. I'm a bit surprised the EU hasn't done any of this. Maybe they're more tolerant of monopolies over there.
One of the things that has greatly helped MS is that no elected-offal wants to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. No one will dispute that MS lays eggs
AussiePenguin
Melbourne, Australia
ICQ 19255837
Jeremy
Melbourne, Australia
Jabber Australia
Guys,
They don't REALLY have to move, and the can screw over the DOJ. Microsoft Says "OK, We'll Split, into a BUNCH of companies" Here's one breakdown:
1)Microsoft Holdings, somewhere down in the Islands). This company does 2 or 3 things a)Owns the other companies, b)Owns all the copyrights to existing software. Also one HECK of a tax haven, and when your worth more (a LOT more) than the government, you can write your own rules
2)Microsoft Development, Redmond WA
Develops software on a "For Hire" basis - Takes some outside work to make things interesting. All the developers work for them (we don't need to move people)
3)Microsoft Sales and Marketing (wherever in the USA). Sales and promotion of Microsoft Products
4)Microsoft Fulfillment, BC - Produces and ships the products - With NAFTA or the various Island "Special Development Zone" rules, getting free "unhindered" access to the US market is part of international treaty
5)Microsoft Consulting (Say, NYC with offices nationwide) - Does what Microsoft Consulting does today
6...x All the little companies - Publishing etc
OK, Lets say that the US government says "You have to break development in two" Fine, do it, The Holding company (which is NEW, say we form it tomorrow) owns both, and the development companies don't own any copyrights, the holding company owns it.
The really valuable parts of Microsoft are it's IP, and it's developers. We move the IP off shore, and hire the developers via holding companies. IP is easy to move
BTW What does this do to the economy of the US?... All those profits go off shore, to a tax haven
I looked into doing this with my one man band consulting company I had - It's do-able
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
MickeySoft - they are becoming a little more pathetic with each passing day. Post M$ days are definately here. This reminds me of the manipulative lover in an attempt to get their way, hand on the door crying out, "I'll leave you!" Pathetic.
Hey, it worked in "Monty Python's The Holy Grail". Besides...Windows was already a "Fart in your general direction". Silly American K-nig-ht!
True, Micro$oft indeed has a largish stake in Measat. However, ironically Measat is right now buying some Linux based software for their digital services (high speed internet) from the largest satellite company in the World... Looks like Microsoft can't even sell their warez to their own subsidiaries.
Say no to software patents.
Just my half dollar.
Who would Mr. Gates sell his house to?
Bite the hand.
I haven't lived in Vancouver, but I have lived in several other Canadian cities, including Ottawa and Toronto, which are both known as expensive cities for Canada.
I've also lived in Redmond, and I can tell you for certain that the cost of living there is FAR higher than anyplace I've seen in Canada. Everything is more expensive there, and the housing prices are just ludicrous.
I'm making a wage that would allow me to live like a lord in Canada, especially with the exchange rate. Here, it's enough to get by, but not much more.
I have to wonder if someone included a currency exchange in that program and forgot to tell the site administrators. If you do a rough approximation by multliplying the Canadian numbers by 66% you get a result which is much closer to reality.
but about a month ago I heard a rumor that M$ has already talked to the Australian government, and has even purchased property there, in preperation for a mass exodus if the US decides to split them up.
I don't know how reliable my source is but they are an ex-employee of M$.
LRJ
The socialist vs. capitalist issue would be very serious I think.. the person responsible for this encouragement is "the man in charge of attracting investment to British Columbia".. of course he probably doesn't think too much about the big picture. If anything, the (more) socialist nature of Canada should encourage Open Source much more than M$-style companies.
Plus Canada always bends over backwards for the US, they are a very peaceful country and don't want trouble. M$ would be nuts to think they're safe there.
"What? You're going to tax Windows?!"
"Yeah, you have a problem with that? Ha! We don't care! You don't live here anymore."
I'm sure this story was purposely leaked to give the current administration a little wake up scare. President Clinton doesn't want to add "chased the largest US company in history out of our borders" to his legacy. Or "appointed Janet Reno, who's actions persecuting Microsoft sunk the US economy into a death spiral".
;)
You may not like M$, but if you have money in NASDAC you know the US economy has a lot at steak in this company.
It would be a hell of a show to see it happen, though.
It seems that moving from the USA to Canada is not a good business solution. In fact many canadian companies are moving away to the States. M$ will have to pay draconian business taxes, their employees will pay even worse taxes (progressive taxes that can go higher than 50%) They will deal with canadian dollars and canadian dollar is about half the price of the US dollar. (it could be advantageous to the US buyers to buy M$ stuff from Canada.) Import/Export laws would also apply. Canadian market is 1/10 of the US market (only 30million people here) where in 5 years half of those people will be over 50 years old... I don't think they have thought this through too well. I would, in fact suggest they go to Mexico!
You can't handle the truth.
The flip side of this is the logistics of moving 20,000 employees. Can we say mass exodus? How would they feel about socialized health care and mega-high taxes. How would this impact UCITA?
I have the feeling this is a stupid joke story.
What I think M$ should do is to create their own little country on an artificial island. Mr. Bill certanly has enough money to buy one. We have the technolgy! The internatinal community can do nothing to stop it. This way M$ would at least be more honest when they say that they are under no country's law.
zenray
While it is true, in theory, that Microsoft could move from Redmond to BC, it won't free them from the spectre of US antitrust legislation, since presumably they want to continue doing business (i.e. selling product) in the US. Of course, Microsoft could move anyway, as a way of "punishing" the DOJ and the US government. But it would be extremely expensive and disruptive for them to do it -- I doubt they will. Still, it's useful for Microsoft to have this sort of proposal floating around, since it creates fear in the minds and hearts of people in the US, esp. in the northwest, who think it might be serious. This fear may push them into supporting Microsoft in its struggle with the DOJ.
This story is basically a joke, it's not going to happen. I live in bc and it's great you should move :)
--
Damien Boersma
Damien Boersma
Quartec Software Corp. / www.Quartec.com
Canada is still part of the British Empire
That's rich. Britain is an 'empire' like the Royal Family constitute a 'monarchy'.
And Canada, despite the fact that we're a bunch of weaselly, bleeding-heart altruists, still has more backbone to think that we're somehow subservient to a once-great country whose top export now is tabloids.
I am a lawyer, but this isn't legal advice. If you need legal advice, see an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction.
This wouldn't stop the split. The U.S. court has already rendered judgment, and has jurisdiction. Assuming that the split stands on appeal (and the odds are strongly in the DOJ's favor), the two pieces could move.
Plain and simply, the court can block the move until the split is complete. Contempt power is an amazing thing--every executive can be jailed, fined $1M/day, etc.
It might help MS with future problems, but not the current mess.
Unfortneately, I can't reply to replies, as it's moving day and I won't see a computer again until Tuesday . . .