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OS-Independent Web Banking?
"I recently wrote again, and received no response at all, even though I mentioned that I would be writing an editorial for Slashdot, whether I could report a happy ending or not. That happy ending seems to be out of reach now. I even offered to contract to fix the problem myself.
The big question is, is there any bank with a good Web banking component that geeks can rely upon for good cross-platform support? TD's site is not only incompatible, but it relies on all sorts of client-side JavaScript to do things that could 99% of the time be just as easily done on the server side in PHP, CGI, ASP (which they are using now - another questionable decision), etc. Ideally I want to be able to log in from a text console using lynx and do my banking... and it seems to me with a little planning there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do so.
Another, broader question that comes to mind is this: Who makes the technology decisions at the big banks? These companies influence our daily lives to an astonishing degree, since they control our financial lives. When my bank decides to change their Web site to make it incompatible with my platform of choice, it really leaves me floundering. Who is responsible? What consulting firm is recommending these unfriendly, unnecessarily glitzy, and altogether unsound choices? If they're unaware of the needs of their less-than-mainstream customers - betraying a certain lack of thoroughness - can we really trust their security decisions?
Practically speaking, I'd like advice on a new, geek-friendly bank, if indeed such a thing exists. Preferably somewhere I can do my banking in a text-mode browser, but at least somewhere committed to supporting the most common graphical browsers on *all* platforms. For myself, the other requirement is that the bank be Canadian, though I think discussion of banks in other countries would be very interesting as well. The good thing about TD is that they have a no-fee minimum account level, which is convenient; a geek-friendly bank with a good service plan to boot would be ideal.
To be fair to my bank, I've been reasonably happy up until now. However, my inability to get any satisfaction on this matter has forced me to consider a move, if a better alternative exists."
If you don't want to use an operating system that the bank's -- or ecommerce etc -- system supports, that is your perogative. However, you can't expect them all to support every operating system there is. That simply isn't possible.
If they lose your business, that's one person. If they try to make their system work with everything, that's more money that one person is worth. Are there more people? Certainly, but they keep a second computer/partition with a 'common' operating system.
Companies have finite resources, and they must choose what is the best value--supporting Windows especially, and also the Mac, is how they can make the most money. They owe this to their customers.
howdy
I've been using www.sfnb.com for a year or so with netscape (various versions) on Linux with nary a problem. I was nervous at first, not being able to walk into a branch, but the service has been flawless for me, unlike my local bank, Bank of America, who lost a deposit and took 2 months to credit it back even though i was waving a receipt in their faces. Check 'em out.
I've been with Canada Trust for many years, and only picked up a TD account for small stuff.
The difference is incredible. Canada Trust is truly customer service oriented, and were the first to adopt a touch-screen teller service (that I know of in Canada) with friendly people behind the counter you can just talk to - no more paper slips, just walk right up.
CT never got into the dial-up Windows-only remote banking (like TD did), they were prepared and ready with web-based banking right from the outset. The website doesn't use javascript or anything special, just straight HTML 2 or 3 with cgi-based forms, and appears very cross platform (you could use w3m or links, I'd assume).
I had a problem once with the version of browser I used, emailed CT, and a representative emailed me back within hours and was contacting the technical people to help get it resolved quickly. She was very helpful, responsive, and friendly.
TD Bank's web banking worries me. I tried it the other day, and found I get this cryptic ID and password to start. It seems they can't relate my Bank card number with Me. So if I want to do banking remotely where my ID isn't saved in the browser, I've got to carry this cryptic ID around with me (it's impossible to change).
When I log in to TD, I see I'm directed to server # 40 something, and it's based on ASP. This also frightens me, if the bank is running an enourmous NT cluster. I won't trust that bank with my paychecks if it stays that way.
Now that TD and CT are merging in the next year, supposedly the customer service aspect is surposed to be preserved for the new bank. The web-based technology is also surposed to merge, and the best aspects you would hope will stay.
I sincerely hope they keep CT's web-based system, and drop the crap that TD has come up with. It does everything I need, it's been reliable, and allows me to do banking anywhere. If they don't, I'll seriously consider switching to another bank.
I know TD has spent probably millions developing their system, using an internal e-commerce development team. I've seen them at career fairs recruiting to do this sort of development. But what they've come up with for the UI should be scrapped.
If you do decide to switch banks, CIBC has an excellent pc banking web site. It's plain and simple, with a high S:N ratio. It's rarely down, and works with lynx. Transactions (even visa) are instantaneous, and the service is good, too.
Actually I too found this problem after they updated their site. I've been using TD site since it opened under linux without problems untill now. Infact will I called about setting up my brother they were surprised that we were using linux, that it even worked. Anyhow. I'm currently beta testing for their next web site. You can find it at https://webbankingpilotx.tdaccess.com. It works fine under linux. In fact it's meant to fix their linux problems. Note I don't work for TD I was just upset about this like the original poster, and found out about it. Conspircy theories aside, this proves to me that big business will support Linux, if it affects their profits.
Funny note - the VP in charge of Citibank's online retail banking operation is one of my limo customers, and has been for years. After many long conversations about Linux and alternative OSes, he made sure the Citibank site was totally cross-platform, which was not only a good customer move but also made a lot of the Unix and Linux coders who work there real happy and got him a *lot* of respect from them.
This person, who I would rather not name here, has since bought a dual-boot home computer from a small, local vendor, and is gradually falling off the edge into Linux.
BTW, I filed my taxes last year using TurboTax online -- in Linux -- and the small local bank where I keep both my personal and limo-business accounts runs platform-independent online banking and plans to keep it that way.
Let the bankers know you're out there, and that your choice of banks is at least in part dependent on their ability to serve your needs. This works especialy well with small local banks, and even better if you also own a business, even a small one, because business accounts are better profit sources than persoanl accounts.
- Robin
USBank recently re-did their website, it used to be some really bad CGI .exe's and it was really slow.. it's much faster now, and looks like they use cold fusion on their main site. and now JSP on the secure web site for the online banking.. it does require a 128bit encryption browser, but works fine with netscape 4.75 in linux.
netcraft seems to be fubar right now.. so i can't check the actual server info.
I'd switch from TD anyway if I were you, if they're the ones that own TD Waterhouse (I'm pretty sure they are). While their TD Waterhouse interface has never given me any problems for running Linux, it's given me plenty of other problems because something there apparently doesn't scale well. What's worse is that their customer service doesn't scale well either.
A few weeks ago I attempted to place an order for a few shares of a stock and their webserver kept returning errors (some of which stated that the load was too high). Well, I tried calling their tech support line to see if my order had gone through but after being on hold for several minutes I was redirected to a message saying that I had reached a "non-existant telephone number at TD Waterhouse". Why their phone tree at their customer service line would redirect me to a non-existant number is beyond me. After unsuccessfully trying my order two more time and trying their customer service line again with the same results, I called their research line in an attempt talk with any human there and tell them their tech support line wasn't working. I received exceedingly rude service and the person I spoke with vehemently denied that their system was having any problems (his justification was that I got through to him, so how could their phone system be experiencing problems - I hate stupid people). Well, it turned out that three orders had been placed for the stock when I only wanted one and he also refused to let me cancel two of the orders because I hadn't spoken to an account representative first (regardless of the fact that I couldn't get through to a representative and the fact that the orders never showed up on my pending orders page). I've actually had other serious problems with TD Waterhouse in the past, but this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Suffice is to say, those were the last buy orders TD Waterhouse is ever going to see from me. I've opened up an account with BuyAndHold.com and the difference has just been amazing so far. I'm buying all new stock through BuyAndHold.com and slowly liquidating my TD Waterhouse holding as it becomes time to sell them.
On a different and better note, I've been using Fleet Homelink on Linux since it was BankBoston Homelink and it has always worked well for me. It seems like a well designed app and I've never seen it too heavily loaded to deal with me. It doesn't work in Mozilla M18 with PSM, but I suspect that may be a Mozilla problem and not Fleet's fault. A lot of people complain about Fleet in general for various reasons (I haven't had problems, personally), but their home banking website is one thing they definitely did right.
-----
Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux
RBOC's website also does appear to be totally browser agnostic (with the caveat mentioned that it has to do HTTPS).
I also use it to import account activities into a format my accountant likes to see, which is hella easier than re-entering statements. =P
--
rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)
"People will pay big bucks for the luxury of ignorance."
I've worked on online banking systems. We could not support any X based clients on legal grounds, as there is no way to guarantee the security of the transaction: a direct SSL connection to a desktop running X over a Unix domain socket is one thing, but running Netscape on a remote machine, then the user viewing the page sent unencrypted over their LAN was judged by our client to be an unacceptable risk. *Shrug* so there you have it.
I have been using Key Bank's Online Banking and have been quite happy with it. It is really nice and well designed and it works with Netscape and IE in both windows and linux. The only problem I have been having is I have been using Mozilla more and more and I installed the 128-bit encyption add on the other night. Every other secure web page I goto, smithbarney.com and mbnanetaccess.com etc all work just fine but Key's crashes Mozilla. I am not sure whether this is a Mozilla problem or a Key problem, though, so I don't hold it against them. Has anybody else had problems with secure sites using Mozilla M18 with the Netscape Personal Security Manager addon?
Barclays' (UK) Internet banking works fine for me from Linux and Netscape 4.7 -- it doesn't even use anything dodgy like Java.
Smile are 100% online (well, they're the online arm of Cooperative Bank, but that's good enough) and have nice touchy-feely we-don't-invest-in-arms-dealers value... also work OK in Linux/Netscape but I've suffered Java related crashes from them in both Windows and Linux. Of course, it's worse in Windows because the whole OS can go down...
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I use Bank of America's web banking and it works fine for me. In fact, the fact that their web banking works under Linux is one of the few reasons I am still using them.
bankrate.com is good source of bank info, I went with netbank for my newest account but haven't tested it yet with Linux (Only got freebsd installed at the moment on my UNIX systems, my wife has Mandrake on her computer, I may test that later). I'm using Summit Bank (www.summitbank.com) for one account, that works fine in FreeBSD, it's all web based, and checks for browser security, not OS.
The real problem is Quicken. All the banks trying to develop online technology are trying to fully develop thier ability to work with Quicken. And Quicken is somewhat a moving target with new versions every year. For online banking, Quicken is important, people are asking for full support from thier bank for Quicken a lot more than for Linux (or any other UNIX) support.
So, if you really want online banking in Linux, what you need to do is petition Quicken to release a Linux version. Then, banks will support it, because they are supporting one product, not multiple OS's.
I don't think there is an open source project (like gnucash) that quite supports "quicken protocol," nor do I believe Quicken will be likely to release a spec of thier protocol for someone to develop a free application that works as well as theres.
I for one would buy Quicken for Linux, if it was out.
I just suggested we petition Quicken because it can probably be done much much much more quickly and easily. If your out for the best solution, your right, absolutely. I'll support you in idea, but I don't have the time or energy to help you do it. But I would be damn happy to see it ;-)
Fleet Homelink works just fine with Lynx and also Netscape on Linux. I'm not a big fan of big banks, but they've got their online banking stuff done right.
Also, x.com finance, which provides a no-fee checking account w/ Visa check card and ATM fee reimbursement if you keep a $100 minimum balance, works just fine with Lynx too. I have one of these accounts and keep a few hundred bucks in it for getting cash at ATM's where I'd be charged a fee. Fleet doesn't reimburse these fees, but x.com does.
After having being terribly annoyed at Bank of America who literally did not know how to execute a wire transfer, and various other banks with low rates or fees for talking to a human, I discovered First Internet Bank. Their checking account pays 5% interest and has no minimum. They've also got free online bill pay and scanned images of canceled checks. Highly recommend them to anyone.
I left TD a while ago and am now happily banking with Metro Credit Union. No problems with their web stuff with Netscape/Linux. Not too many branches though, so if you need to go in often then they may not be for you.
I Use netbank...still requires Java but it works on openbsd w/ netscape.
Also, their fees are reasonable. www.netbank.com
That being said, I wonder if there's a way to get these banks to comply, threatening them with a lawsuit over non-ADA (Disabilities act) compliance. Lynx is the only browser that does text-to-speech, which is what the blind will need.
Therefore, banks need to be lynx compatible or
get sued. Note that this is just idle rambling I am not a lawyer, etc.
But Java crashes all the Netscape browsers we've ever used under Linux here, regardless of Netscape version and regardless of RedHat release in use. (Yeah, we tried the fonts fix too, no change.)
So, what are you guys doing under Linux to make Java work for you in a web browser?
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Barclays has a really bad reputation for being willfully limited to Microsoft clients only, and of couruse they were running MS IIS servers. A colleague of mine spent months trying to get them to do something about it, but they were utterly unresponsive. Eventually he hacked the Id string in his Linux Netscape binary to make it pretend to be MS Internet Exploiter, and everything worked fine.
Lloyds TSB is client-neutral, it seems. Their Verisign certificate is registered to their Unix group, which might explain it. On the other hand, when I first looked they were running Stronghold/Apache on Unix but now their secure service appears to have changed to use Netscape:
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Server: Netscape-Enterprise/3.6 SP3
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 20:59:47 GMT
Content-type: text/html
Last-modified: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 09:24:57 GMT
Is that still a Unix version of Netscape server, or they gone over to the dark side and now run NT like on their port 80 service?
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
I have found that USAA and Dreyfus (www.edreyfus.com) both have excellent web based services that work in unix. Dreyfus even uses an AS/400 for a webserver. :)
-- dieman - Scott Dier
I've just started to use HSBC (Hong Kong-Shanghai :)
:) and then
:) I wonder if they'd
:)
Bank of Canada or something like that
starting this summer now that I've graduated.
The online-banking seems pretty good although I
don't use it nearly as much as their NetTrader
stuff. They both work without any problems with
Netscape 4.7x under Linux.
The NetTrader interface isn't as slick as the
Internet-Banking counterpart (and I think TD
Waterhouse has more features too) but it does what
I need and more.
My only real problem, although it is more amusing
than really a problem is that when I do call them
up that they answer in Cantonese (even though I
specifically dialed the English number
after speaking a bit in English, asking if I'd
rather speak in Cantonese
do that even if I dialed the Mandarin number...to
ask if I'd rather speak in Cantonese heheheh
I guess I should also mention that (at least with
the HSBC NetTrader site) that it uses cgi-bin,
javascript, and frames.
Connecting with a 128-bit browser is also
required.
Blah. You shouldn't have felt embarassed; the service should've popped up a flag telling you your encryption wasn't up to snuff. Instead it just failed on you.
The WFB site makes it pretty clear when you don't have strong enough encryption. They only require 40bit for everything but the Online Bill Pay.
They're pretty quick to verify new browswers as well. I upgraded to a point release of Navigator (the day it was released) and found it wouldn't work on their site. I mailed them asking about it. They replied that they were working on making sure the browswer didn't have any major bugs. I tired it again a couple days later and it worked just fine. Seems like they've got all their ducks in a row
This becomes a problem if the check is on a secure page, though, because I don't think junkbuster can proxy the SSL stuff... but I'm not sure. I ran into a similar problem at my previous employer.
(I now work for linux-friendly SGI, so I don't have to worry about that silliness anymore!)
---
Wells Fargo works perfectly for me
I use Royal Bank and it works fine with FreeBSD, Linux and it is a Canadian bank.
Security First Network Bank works fine for me and I disable Java and Javascript. Images are only partially necessary; they have an image map toolbar once you log in. My two gripes have to do with their unnecessary 6 month password aging scheme and lack of progress feedback on snail mail deposits. But they are good otherwise. Get cash from gracery stores, because ATMs cost money after the first 5 (?) per month. Deposits have to be automatic deoposit or snail mail.
--
Infuriate left and right
I use Chase. Can't recommend them as a bank, seeing as they charge fees if you so much as breathe. But their online banking works perfectly fine with Netscape on *nix, though their servers are a bit on the slow side. And they're American, of course, so I don't know what good that does someone in Tronna.
That said, give me a fucking break. The percentage of people running Linux on their desktop is somewhere south of 1%, and of those, I dare say half have access to a Windows or Mac system on a reglar basis. Because of the enormous risks involved, banking software is developed and updated very, very slowly and conservatively. Any feature change or bug fix goes through several levels of testing and typically needs sign-off from four or five people before it's allowed into production. Even for, say, a form-validation script.
Sure, most web sites don't have platform-dependency problems (at least in regard to IE 4.x-5.x and Netscape 4.x). It's a shame they wrote such cranky code that it exposes the tiny incomatibilities between Netscape on Win32 and Netscape on *nix. All true.
But how many customers does lack of Linux support chase away from any web site? I mean, really? I mean, there are profitable web-based services out there that don't even support Macs. And Macs account for something like ten times the number of web users than all Unixes combined.
Chase Bank is pretty good. (www.chase.com)
And I've heard that Fleet Bank works as well.
This
Hello fellow Canadian,
Don't laugh, but the President's Choice Financial bank works like a charm, and they have 5% interest!!
I'm not kidding, I make $20 interest in a month on the same cash that earns me a whopping $0.30 in my ScotiaBank account.
NS/128-bit works fine, Konqueror looks like it would, but for a java/javascript issue (the only failing of Konqi is the javascript support..)
Anyway, check it out. It's awesome. I know they don't do commercial accounts yet, but they will be soon.
www.preschoicefinancial.com
Cheers,
Ben
If you don't like the service provided, just take your money and go elsewhere. Make a point where it hurts them most: their pocketbooks. They may not care about losing one small customers (banks really make money from business clients) but do not give them your business for below average service.
My bank does not use any client-side scripting, so as long as I have a client w/ 128-bit encyrption, all is fine. Remember, friends don't let friends use client-side scripting.
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
"Computers are nothing but a perfect illusion of order" -- Iggy Pop
I've been fine with TD's webbanking on netscape 4.05, 06, 08 (my current choice because it crashes the least on my box with nasty java/script sites) and .6 and .7 over the last year. Right up until about 2-3 weeks ago when suddenly something changed in their javascript and now I cant pay bills (thats it, everything else works). However, the billpaying is really the critical thing I need.
:)
/. mebbe someone over at TD who has some power will actually *DO* something about it.
.mov files I CANNOT watch.
I wrote them and asked whats up and got no reply.
So I got all snotty-assed and mentioned that 3 companies that I am a majority stakeholder in (the ones I founded) put about $5M+ thru TD per year, so please get back to me. They then sent me some platitudes the like of which the poster mentioned.
Bitching about yet another Microsoft-supporting cronie company (YAM$SCC?) on irc got me a slap from Blizzard: "use M17 silly!".
And I did, and it worked great.
So for now, til TD fixes things, I'll be using mozilla for my webbanking. Mebbe by the time they fix it Mozilla will be ready for primetime and I wont have to switch around.
I hope they switch to CT's EasyWeb, its super fast compared to TDs overly flashy system and their ass-like JS overkill. Somehow I doubt their developpers are going to choose CT stuff over TD now legacy crap.
Im glad this hit
How long til M$ starts PAYING banks and other businesses to setup M$-only-compatible systems
on the net? Imagine no webbanking at all with Linux? Already Apple seems have some sort of alliance with M$ at least vs Linux - there's extremely limited QT availability for Linux (Xanim) and tons of
Will this become more prevalent? How many backroom bux are moving around supporting that kinda crap?
-Math
I'm not trying to plug Wells Fargo, even though that is exactly what I am doing 8-), but I had a similiar problem with them in the past and called them up. They were quite civil and pointed out that the reason I couldn't connect was because I had switched to weak encryption, a side effect of upgrading to a newer version of SuSE.
The technician had offered to give me a URL to download the latest Linux version of Netscape, but I declined. I was a little embarassed once I realized the failure was my fault, but none the less the service was admirable.
I personally dump any company that does not want to support my needs on my OS of choice. I recommend you consider doing the same. Vote with your check book or in this case the whole account.
im with scotia bank, if you want to use online banking, you have to load up there propriatary windows authorization client to do so. They do offer HTTPS however knowone at the bank seems to know about it.
My impression was that they'd just switched. Their website now only describes the ssl method, and the support people had no trouble getting me a password. You're right about the proprietary encryption filter though--it was obnoxious. I think the idea was to make sure everybody had 128 bit security back when you had to jump through hoops to get that version of netcape. So while I trust 56 bit ssl at least as much as the proprietary gadget they'd bought, their hearts may have been in the right place.
I've also been impressed with the signup mechanism. You call, ask to sign up, get authenticating secrets verbally, then they stick you in a queue where a computer tells you your temporary password. That way no employee sees or hears what it is. You then login and change it. Semi-instant gratification. :)
In any case, their ssl interface works fine under Linux/Netscape, probably because they avoid all the cute clientside scripting.
In contrast, I recently opened an account with Bank of America in part because they claimed to use SSL. They're even using JSP, but login in from Linux/Netscape causes an internal server error. Ouch. They said they were aware of the issue and were working on a fix; we'll see what that means in the next couple of weeks.
Another silly thing is that while you can sign up for BofA's online banking online, they snailmail you your login password, which seems an entirely unreasonable delay. It doesn't add anything to security either: searching someone's mail (after sniffing the application) is usually *easier* than tapping their phone.
The Royal Bank has a beautiful online banking system that I use in Windows, and in Linux. It even works in Mozilla, when crypto support is available. Yay Royal Bank. www.royalbank.com
As opposed to a coder who got into the business to promote every platform under the sun at the expense of her client's wishes?
-josh
Konqueror is a good OSS browser and was developed rapidly. Even M18 is not too bad, but it needs a bit more bug fixing (but, then, it's much more than a browser). The OSS movement doesn't have to be ashamed.
Actually, these are incompatibilities. I'm in exactly the same situation with TD, and have superficially investigated this annoyance. A JavaScript error occurs and appears to make Netscape think that the page never finishes loading, which prevents some 'page-loading' hook from being run (or something similar, it's been months). From there it cascades into an ugly ball of 'user not finished loading page, cannot allow action ...' type of problems. At least, that's one of them. Very annoying.
-- Mishka
Canada Trust and TD are merging, so perhaps you might get access to the excellent Canada Trust on-line banking. I've never had any compatibility problems, they do everything server-side (the way it ought to be). The only browser problem I've had was when they decided to go from 40 bit to 128 bit ssl, and I had to upgrade my browser (whoopee.)
Their on-line banking is also quite complete, I can pay all my bills, add companies (more companies than other banks), even do specialty stuff like change my address.
I've been generally quite happy with Canada Trust since I moved my bank account there after getting mad at CIBC at the tender age of 5. I hope the merger doesn't ruin Canada Trust.
No, they will be using TD Access.
That's why we have.... KONQUEROR!
I mentioned this to them, and apparently BeOS users have been complaining too. So, I suspect they are aware of this, and are making an overall compatible site. I tested from HP-UX and it works fine from there as well......
Maybe if I get free time I'll do testing from IRIX and Solaris too.
I ran into this as well. They supported Linux for a very long time and then they decided to make some updates to the page to make it non-Linux compatible. It was REALLY stupid and I even called them and told them how to fix the page to make it work with Linux again, but they would hear nothing of it. I actually posted a comment to slashdot about this a couple of months ago in a story that had some remote links to this topic. I told TD support that I would post information all over the web about their treatment of people who didn't want to use Windows or MacOS. They actually told me to go out and buy Windows if I wanted to use their site!! I was really pissed off and managed to speak to the manager, who told me that they were developing a better site. She gave me access to this beta site, which actually does work, and I can verify that they now do support Linux. I guess enough people called to complain. They were ->- that close to losing me as a customer after 21 years, and with me, losing some serious commercial business too. Be patient. Within a month or two (hopefully), it will work again. The new site is much faster and more full-featured too.
I know it's frustrating, but they know what it's all about now.
I thought the hole point of JS was client side scripting - it shouldn't matter what OS you use because it isn't compiled. Now there are differences in M$, Netscape (and I'm sure mozilla too), but if they designed the applications to work according to standards, this would not be a problem.
There is a reason we want standards. Maybe you should request the bank support web standards and not filter clients based on the browser.
The blind have many more options than just text consoles. There have been speech digitizers that work with Windows and convert the text on web pages and in menus to speech.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Hopefully that will not change. One of the design decisions made very early on was that it should be usable by as many browsers as possible and should not rely on a specific browser. The whole idea was that it should be Internet banking not MS/IE or Netscape Banking. I was quite involved in the original design work and know that the whole design-team heavily backed that idea. I've now moved on but I know a great number of the original players are still there and I don't expect things to have changed much.
It also helped that the design was done very early on before MS and Netscape really started botching things up. However making things as standards compliant as possible is sometimes alot harder than people realise and can really slow down initial roll-outs.
I do online banking (mainly watching to see when
checks clear and the occasional 'crap, need more
money in checking!' transfer) with my Wells Fargo
account.
It works just fine with Netscape 4.7x for Linux,
even with Java and JavaScript off (which is how
I prefer to use browsers).
I even tried it using an HTTPS-enabled version of
Lynx while SSH'ed into my ISP and, after tricking Wells Fargo's servers into thinking I was using a particular version of a different model browser (ie, Netscape 4.7 and not Lynx), it seemed to work just fine!
I dunno if I'd do it too often because the site is harder to navigate using Lynx (sigh), but at least it works!
I second this recommendation. I use the Royal Bank with no difficulties on older netscape and netscape 6 for linux. Stay away from Scotiabank.
I have to agree with the earlier comments about smile.co.uk. When I first joined there were a couple of minor problems with their applet but they seem to have sorted them out quickly and without any fuss. I'd certainly recommend them to anyone in the UK, their java applet works exactly the same on windows and linux.
Sig is taking a break!
I've been using SFNB (Security First Network Bank -- http://www.sfnb.com) since 1997, and they are really, really good. No problems using the site from Netscape for Linux. They reimburse ATM charges, show JPEG images of cancelled checks, and answer support email very promptly. The only annoying thing is that they have no branches except for Atlanta, so if you want to make a deposit (other than direct dep. or wire transfer) you have to mail it, but that's hardly been a problem. -nate
this is awfuly distressing. I am a long time CT supporter, who was recently bought out by TD. CT has been a long time supporter of new/cool tech and "the right way to do it". for instance, when all the big banks came out with their own software to connect to their "PC Banking", Canada Trust beat them to the market by "PC Banking" over the web. makes sense to me.
anyway, I hope cooler heads at Toronto Doominion pervail, and the merger uses Canada Trust's technology for their web stuff.
wake up guys.
I was with Security First since the early days and its still IMHO one of the best Internet banks out there in terms of functionality and costs. I know its now owned by the Royal Bank of Canada so Canadians can use it too.
http://www.sfnb.com/
I'm now with CitiBank in the UK... very basic capabilities but it works (mostly). First-E (www.first-e.com) looks geek friendly (Java, PHP, etc.) but the security paranoia and the non-standard debit card aren't worth it.
Barclays are currently on the third version of their client: initially it was a Windows executable, then a Windows-specific java applet (which took an age to load, particularly on the modem I had at the time), and they're currently using a standard-ish web interface which works perfectly well under Linux Netscape (albeit with almost unreadably small fonts). It's very frames-based though, so probably wouldn't work on a non-graphical browser.
But are Barclays secure? Not really - they had a particularly bad moment earlier this year when they changed the server security and introduced a horrendous bug which meant that two customers who logged on at the same time would see each other's accounts. That iteration was rolled back, I've only stuck with them because I will will be moving out of the UK banking system soon anyway.
Egg, on the other hand, only support Windows and Macs. Their pages do not work under Netscape 4.7x, presumably because of the same Jvascript problems quoted elsewhere. However, their site is perfectly usable under Netscape 6 PR2 - whether it's really a good idea to use such early software for secure applications is moot, but hey. None of my money has disappeared yet.
Apparently Egg are about to revamp their site. I don't know what will happen then. Their attitude to security is also questionable, but as far as I know their site security hasn't been broken yet.
--
Dunx
Converting caffeine into code since 1982
I use CIBC, and their web banking works great in Linux. I've never tried, but it should work fine in Mac or Lynx - the only requirement is that the browser must support 128-bit SSL. That's a nice touch too, I find. Beyond SSL, it doesn't even require images - there's a few for the header and to make it a bit more visually appealing, but that's it.
Now I don't know about any features that might be missing, or if the rest of CIBC's policies suit you, but the internet banking is certainly no problem - it's how I've paid all my bills for the past year.
Peter
You know what I hate? Wait, what do you like? I hate that!
I've been quite happy with Canada Trusts web banking and it seems to work fine under Linux and Solaris.
However, Canada Trust just merged with Toronto Dominion. With any luck, they'll both start using the Canada Trust web banking (EasyWeb).
They actually bought out Security First Network Bank some time ago, whose software they use. I've been using SFNB's web banking for years and I really like it - 20 free electronic bill payments per month (uses CheckFree), interest bearing checking account, and a simple but very functional web site that should work on any browser.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm happy with cibc's web banking www.pcbanking.cibc.com you can even "Test drive" it
I have a similar problem with my employer. Their timesheet is a client-side java application. When you pull up the webpage, depending on the platform you use (Solaris, Windows and Mac using IE or Netscape) some javascript (which also gets the previous info) displays the correct applet or embed tags. Unfortunately, the javascript does not check for linux.
I sent an email to the webmaster explaining the problem (even providing links to the blackdown site, the output of my 'about:plugins' page, and a bunch of other information that would help take care of the matter). My response back was "Why dont you try using IE on linux and let me know if it works". This was the *webmaster* of a major IT contracting company!!! The cluelessness of some people amazes me. I have no problem giving away the name of the company.
Signal Corporation.
If anyone wants to contract through them and uses a desktop other than Windows, Mac, or Solaris, I *highly* suggest you think otherwise.
Agreed, If you have a BOM account, you can register via the phone for phonebanking then that gets you onto the site with the same 6 digit pin. I only ever had 1 problem, and it was some kind of serverside issue... plus their site works and looks nice in linux/netscape.
;-)
Furthermore, online bill payment rules. I'm dissaponted to note you _STILL_ have to pay like 7 days before your bill due date for it to register... its like companies are too lazy or unable to integrate the billpayment with their computer system so they have a lower-ranking accountant check it once a week or something.
Dont you guys understand? its about speed
oh well.
I've been using wingspanbank.com for about 9 months now, and I'm thoroughly impressed with their web interface. Runs in any 128-bit secure browser, including netscape for linux. In fact, that was my main motivation for switching to them.
Additionally, they have EXCELLENT customer support and a fair range of services, all of which are free. I can even make a withdrawal at another bank's ATM and wingspan rebates their atm fees automatically! Great rates on their interest-bearing checking accounts, investment services, free bill pay... you name it. if its a service you can get from an online bank, wingspan's got it.
The only drawback is not having a brick-and-mortar bank to go to. Being an internet-only bank, without those b&m branches it means you have to either mail a check to them for deposit (they provide postage-paid envelopes for this purpose) or do it electronically, i.e. direct-deposit. Sometime in the next few months though they are supposed to allow deposits to be made via certain other bank's ATMs, making it easier to deposit Grandma's birthday check.
All things considered, I highly recommend this institution if you need an online bank. BTW, i forgot but they can let you download your statements in money or QIF format, the latter of which is readable by GnuCash.
Canadian banks gennerally dont care about there customers, because they dont make that much money off us, compared to the corporations..
Well, that implies that they care about thier corporate clients.. which is dead wrong.
Try setting up a business (especially an internet-based one).. they STILL won't give a damn about you - Want to set up to take Credit Cards? sure, we'll just need a $10,000 cash deposit for EACH CARD TYPE - can't afford it? well, that's just your tough luck. There was a recent StatsCan report that said that most Canadian businesses aren't offering their services over the internet - GEE, I WONDER WHY!
Canadian banks are probably the only corporations that I can say are worse than Microsoft.
Your customer has competition. The competitions site works, loads faster and is probably cheaper since they havent spent a load of money on "Web Experience", but rather something to get the job done without hassles.
Thankyou for playing, please stand in the line of bankrupt dotcoms.
I've been using it for years on Netscape/Linux and more recently on Mozilla/Linux with PSM (albeit slow). I don't even *have* Windows at home. I don't know what kind of trouble you're having...
I do know that if you have <128 bit SSL, or have JavaScript turned off, it won't work. Other than that, it's fine. I'd prefer not having the JavaScript, but I can't have everything.
Now I only wish Konqueror could do it, I'll try it out again on Monday (KDE2 final release), and change the reported browser type if I have to. Konqueror let's you change it for specific websites, a very cool feature.
As for using Lynx, etc, I don't even think you can get 128 bit SSL for it, just "export grade" SSL. I'm glad they're requiring 128.
Besides, most Linux users I know use Netscape, (and SuSE 7.0 installs the 128 bit version by default) so the market for Lynx users is *extremely* small.
As someone who has been there, I can say pretty safely that the folks coding up those web banking sites don't like to deviate from Microsoft too much, and it's for an interesting reason: the product sells better to non-tech types when you can say it's a Microsoft tech. Floored me when I first heard that, but I suppose some people haven't figured out that Microsoft != secure. As far as they're concerned, Microsoft products (ASP, IIS, etc) make for a quick rollout that has good security and customers are comfortable with. I'd say two of those are right...
For example, if I have a dynamic pulldown menu, it will _NOT_ display right AT ALL on Netscape 3 to the point where one has to force the user to an upgrade screen because the user experience would be more damaging then not.
You are not going to FORCE me to do anything. I define MY own user experience, and if your HTML will not work on my browser, relief is just a click away. If you can't be bothered to write something that works without crap like Javascript and Flash then you obviously don't want me at your site!
For many webpages I have to had to save the source and hack the file into submission. At home, with Junkbuster and Javascript off I would get a blank page on the Linux: Renegade or ally? link posted earlier today. I had to open a text editor and delete HTML until I finally could see the article. And don't get me started on the barely-legible tiny fonts that web developers using CSS are so fond of using!
To bring this back on topic, my bank uses Javascript so I can't access my account when I turn Javascript off, but at least they offer exporting of account data in CSV format...
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
I'm talking about a site that does work, and that DOES enhance the web experience. It does so by using an advanced UI and other features...
How about providing us a link to some of your wonderful websites so that we can ooh and ahh at your "advanced UI" coding skills?
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
I most always use their online services under Netscape/Linux--- opened IRA's, WellsTrade accts, etc... All flawless--
It's a clue the kind of bank they are when you walk in any of their branches and just see nice litol flat screen LCD dumb X terms or just terms as the case may be. They know wtf they're doing and have their sh*t together.
WELLS FARGO FOREVER!
:wq
Now, whether or not it will work with a text-based browser I don't know... I suppose that so long as your browser can make HTTPS connections you would be fine, as they don't appear to use javascript.
The fee is a little high; something like CDN$4 per month, plus there might be some transaction fees. But, if you sign up for telephone banking, you also get the online banking included, I believe.
shane.
mah na mah na.
Dunno about Canada, but in the USA you can get a lot of sites' management's attention really fast by asking about disabled access. Tell 'em you depend on, say, Lynx for speech-to-text.
The reason seems to be that unlike the random noncommercial or advertising sites, banks live under Federal regs give make disabled access regulations teeth.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Y'know, I've never tried to use BNZ banking under Linux. It didn't even work on Windows under Netscape very well. I am just about to switch to BankDirect. How do you find them?
:-)
My only concern was that I would lose my decent credit-limit. (Someone I talked to recently was told if they switched banks, they'd be given a $500 limit, even though she currently has a combined limit of about $9000 now...) Still, that wasn't BankDirect.
I will be moving to Canada next year, and I am not keen on having to use cash more. I'm sure the last time I was in a store that didn't have any form of EFTPOS (or Interacc) was when I was in Canada. This is slightly off-topic, but when are these people going to get rid of cash? I understand Britain is pretty much behind too.
I can make value-judgements like that, can't I?
I know this doesn't directly address your question, but there are ways of getting around certain "JavaScript" incompatibilities, such as those that Fox TV had a while ago. Junkbuster is a great proxy that besides doing other things like blocking banner ads and unnecessary cookies, lets you change the UserAgent to any string your little heart desires. Add in a little "Mozilla/4.75 [en] (Win98; U)" or whatever your favorite is (that was just pulled randomly out of my access_log) and away you go. This is only a partial fix, however, so I would still recommend getting some sort of high-level person on the phone and reminding them that your business can very easily go elsewhere over a silly little "We only support Mac and Windows" policy.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. Albert Einstein
Does w3c-valid HTML/Transitional count? If so, I hereby take up the challenge! Here goes:
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
You forget that any product that uses Gecko, including Mozilla and Galeon among others, is capable of using many of the W3C's latest standards, as well as the more long-standing ones, such as CSS2.
First of all, you don't have to worry about backwards compatibility if you write according to a W3C standards; they are, in general, automatically backwards-compatible. Sure, you might not get the same experience if you are using an older browser, but that's the reason for using newer browsers.
Web developers write markup documents that are 98% invalid, not conforming to any W3C standard. They ignore W3C standards completely. In fact, if you could show me 5 sites that have valid, strict HTML of any version, or XHTML, I would be impressed. And you can't use any page I've written (which are all valid XHTML 1.0 and valid CSS2) nor the W3C pages as any of the 5.
Web developers target those without W3C-compliant browsers; this is why they write Javascript, to help workaround, circumventing standards to help those with non-compliant browsers such as Netscape 4.x, and IE.
As it stands in the UK, one of the leading Internet providers for OS independant banking is a building society; Nationwide. The sign-up is not always 100% clear but they do have a good demo on their site.
By contrast we have solutions (Or more like problems) such as The Royal Bank of Scotlandwhich have their bank tied to M$Money and a win32 app. I believe that Lloyds is the same, however their site looks just like slashcode! Lloyds have a demo site here
Slashdot Beta should die a painful death.
Atleast 1 bank works fine without javascript (Osuuspankki), but requires frames (so no lynx :( Second bank i use (Leonia) works with IE, Netscape and Opera (even in psion) but requires some javascript. You can also use WAP or SMS-messages. I've been paying my bills online for about 6 years now...
- allan savolainen
- Raynet --> .
First Union bought my bank, and they supplemented their Quicken/MS Money support with web support.
I've been studying Java servlets and how they tend to be "best viewed with any browser". FU has done a terrific job at maintaining cross platform compatibility as long as I've been a customer. And they required 128-bit SSL. Another plus.
--
Intelligent Life on Earth
Don't think about using their investment stuff, it sucks. But the bank is actually a different company (used to be telebank) that E*Trade bought. They have very high interest rates and the pages work with Lynx. I've been very pleased.
Just don't get me started about their brokerage accounts.
I personally use citizens bank of canada and ING Direct . Citizens are a virtual bank that is part of the VanCity bank. ING Direct is also a virtual bank that specializes in savings (5% on their savings account).
It took a while to get used to not having a branch at all (since citizens is completely virtual) but for US$ you can use the ING bank machines (at Canadian Tire stores in GTA anyway). Other than the need for US$ occasionally I have no real need for the branch.
And to the point of the question, I have used both of their internet services from each of Linux (Netscape) and Windows (IE of course in each of 95,98,NT & 2K) as well as once in the aol custom browser and all worked correctly.
The reason web developers don't take lynx into account is because it's hard enough making everything work with Netscape and IE.
Standardization is essential. Will it happen? No. It's too much of a hassle from all the parties involved. It's also not necessarily the best thing for the "cleints".
The sites want to give you flashy javascript-laden, pumped-up flash 4, (etc) pages. They're nicer to look at.
With the proliferation of broadband internet access, why not? (don't complain about page render time, get a new computer) SO the people that suffer are the "fringe folks" who like to use lynx, or insist on using older versions of netscape, or any version of Opera, or (gasp, Netscape on Unix) =).
The __business__ decision to make pages like this is for the benefit of the consumer (according to the companies).
So who pays the price?
1) The web developers (who get paid well enough to endure the headaches of netscape and the likes).
2) You (if you like Unix/Linux, or any of the aforementioned browsers).
I'm sorry to say it, but I don't think companies are going to start making their pages for lynx any time soon. Your only hope will be those geared for mobile devices that have little or no graphics.
Until that becomes commonplace, you know you can:
a) go to another page
b) use another browser (or OS as the case may be), or
c) refuse to use the service that is offending you by their non-compliance.
What you shouldn't do (notice it's absence from the above list) is complain. It'll be about as effective as options a - c.
> These "javascript incompatabilities" aren't really incompatabilities.
Cute, but is wrooong !
When you edit an TEXTAREA input in a from, under M$ it will be sent with CRs and LFs as End-Of-Line, but under ANY UN*X browser will be send only with LFs. Stupid cgi-s (like the embeded web server form 3com's LanModem)(and almost all MS-IIS cgis) will barf when this happens.
--
1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
I bank with a company called WestpacTrust http://www.westpactrust.co.nz.
These chaps have launched an Internet banking service (https://sec.westpactrust.co.nz that is all server-side - so as long as you've got something written after the year 1700 that supports frames and http over ssl, you're sweet.
However, other banks in New Zealand use all kinds of Mickey Mouse custom Java thick client solutions and crap like that. Really, it boils down to the bank - if they're smart, they're using Solaris with some good engine, if they're not, then change banks.
While I will admit that Citibank does have a decent cross platform web presence, I refuse to do business with them. I have been very unimpressed with their customer service on their web accounts. Recently my account with citi f/i was closed unannounced. As a result of their negligence in not informing me that this would be occurring several of my checks were not honored and now I'm out well over $200 in returned check fees. I am currently pursuing legal action of attempt to get them to apologize and return some of the money that I have lost as a result.
________________
They're - They are
Their - Belonging to them
I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
`Minor javascript incompatibility' If this genuinely is an incompatibility [and not javascript used to stupidly check for Windows or Macintosh], then the problem would seem to be your javascript implementation. Javascript should be cross platform. If the implementation in Netscape is wrong, work with the mozilla guys to make sure it becomes right. Don't annoy the bank - they're not doing anything wrong if they're using standard javascript, but your implementation is shitty. This is an unfortunate aspect of much open source advocacy - you have to be able to recognize your faults in order to fix them. And, no, I'm no Windows apologist [and I'm posting this from Konqueror], but if someone tells me that, for example, Linux doesn't have a multimedia app as comprehensive as Windows MEdia player, I'm willing to listen and put some effort into making sure it does.
Merita actually also does SSH, so you only need
a VT52 or thereabouts compatible terminal and Unix account to bank. Really useful at universities and their email-checking terminal stands.
Also Leonia still has their old telnet-based system, which works much in the same manner. Both are probably offerings your average clerk would rather not tell you about, but as an original customer I still use both. It indeed helps a lot when you're trying to bank from across the Atlantic!
It's all based on single-use passwords, one for
login, then another challenge-response pool for each transaction, so being snooped isn't that big
of a worry either.
Remember, though, that in Scandinavia the common
way of paying a bill or giving someone money is
to directly transfer the sum from one account to another. Most people alive today have probably never even seen a cheque.
Disclaimer: I think Merita bites as much as
almost every other Finnish bank, but their SSH
service is cool to have.
Wells Fargo has excellent on-line services, ranging from on-line account access (for my business and personal accounts, credit cards, they can do mortgages and student loans on-line too, and merchant services). They also have an on-line brokerage though I've never used it. I've also used it from Netscape/Linux with no problem, and most Mac browsers. Their operation seems cool, read this article:
http://www.fastcompany.com/onli ne/ 38/models.html
don't think that's an option in Canada though, sorry.
-aaron
Damn straight.
I was a customer with TD for years, but then I switched to Canada Trust for their much better service on the human side of things.
I went to royal for my student loan and since have done all my banking online (as the human side of royal was aboutthe same as TD)
since TD and Canada Trust are now one bank, I thnk I"ll stick with royal and keep doing things ont he web
im with scotia bank, if you want to use online banking, you have to load up there propriatary windows authorization client to do so. They do offer HTTPS however knowone at the bank seems to know about it.
Canadian banks gennerally dont care about there customers, because they dont make that much money off us, compared to the corporations..
www.sfnb.com
It's the 21st Century Do you know what your government is doing
This is a danish bank, so it is probably not as useful for you in the U.S., but the URL is:
http://www.jyskenetbank.dk/
They have stated the client software requirements as:
SSL 3.0
Java 1.0.2
Cookies
Frames
There are no requirements for OS or browser. Netscape/Linux works fine. I haven't tried any newer version of Konqueror or Opera, but if the above conditions are met, it should work.
Actually, I switched to this bank because of their homebanking solution...
http://www.suntrust.com/
I'm not sure how far outside of the East Coast U.S. SunTrust reaches, but I haven't ever regretted opening accounts with them.
They've always provided a clean and fast web interface to my accounts, including free online bill pay, and downloading of past statements. I also recently started using them as my broker, and have to say I'm also quite happy with their web interfaces for doing this as well.
I can access my deposit accounts, money market, credit card, and investment portfolio (including executing trades) via the web, and haven't ever had a problem doing this under Linux. My investment advisor from the regional branch (a couple blocks down the road from my office) is even quite familiar with Linux. They do use a little Javascript on some of the sites, but they have done a very good job at making sure it works under all the various platforms.
Anywho, just thought I'd toss that in for anyone in the East Cost U.S. looking for a reputable bank that has full Linux support for all the online banking/investment functions.
Would somebody please kill the amoeba responsible for the above moderation?
.- -.. .. --- -....- .- -.- - .. ...- .. - .-.- - ...-.-
If a bank's Internet service only welcomes customers with IE or Netscape, then it's not an Internet (WWW) service - it's an IE and Netscape service.
The bank offices gladly accept written checks and forms no matter if I used a Mont Blanc or a Bic pen to fill them in. A WWW service should be the same.
.-.
Help savingAmigaOS and a free PowerPC market
The story was in search of anon-e-money and while there is no hard conclusion yet! It at least seems a lot closer.
Set yourself up with an e-gold account and use that for your transactions, banks as they are now, are only interested in shareholder profits, not customers at all.
cya, Andrew...
This is my sig, exciting huh!
The Canada Trust site works perfectly with IE or netscape or mozilla (wait, not yet...). I wonder if the merger with Toronto Dominion will help your problem? Which online system will they go with? They will have to merge their computer systems at some point in time. Should we start lobbying now? E-mail me if you're interested in circulating a petition. -Pete
Yeah, it's just too bad that the CIBC sucks my ass! They are the WORST at customer service. I've seen branches that still have hours from 10am-12am and 1pm to 4pm! WTF kind of piece of shit hours are that? Time and time again, they have proven to me and my friends that they have the absolute worst customer service by unexpectedly putting a 'hold' on their entire account when they deposit a cheque and much more. Be warned, stear clear of the CIBC!!!! -Pete
Hi there. As I have moved down here into the United States from Canada, you would think I would be having difficulty, but this is not the case. Royal have been extremely helpful for me with their 1-800 service whenever I have had questions, or needed to get something done. In fact, it is the American banks down here that give me more grief, relatively speaking :)
And in answer to your initial question, IIRC I have no problems with their web interface, using either Netscape (Linux or otherwise) or MSIE when needed. It is simple and straighforward scripting, no fancy stuff.
Hope this helps :)
~darren
spam, spam, spam, spam, e-mail, news and spam.
smile (at http://www.smile.co.uk ) works fine using Netscape 4.* under Linux and Solaris - this is even more amazing when you consider that it's a Java applet.
In fact, they are a great online bank, and I'd recommend it to anyone in the UK. Plus they're an ethical bank (part of the co-op) so you get to feel all self-righteous too. :-)
(One downer: they don't support MacOS but that won't concern too many /.ers).
nic
Bus error in your favour. Collect 200kB
TD's site is not only incompatible, but it relies on all sorts of client-side JavaScript to do things that could 99% of the time be just as easily done on the server side...Ideally I want to be able to log in from a text console using lynx and do my banking... and it seems to me with a little planning there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do so.
Baloney. You don't develop web applications do you? Glitz is what wins customers. If they loose you, so what? They get 100 more because it looks good on their system.
Do you realize what this bank would have to do to make their site work with Lynx or a console? Let's talk re-write from scratch. Let's talk increasing the server horsepower so all of the things that should be done on the client are now done on the server because your client can't handle it. Finally, let's talk doing this (in addition to their regular site) for the tiny percentage of their clients who choose to run a non standards-compliant browser that is incompatible with their system.
Businesses exist to make money. The return on investment for such a system would be nearly nothing. Why should they build it?
Don't get me wrong here. I develop cross platform web applications for a living, even when I don't have to. Between Netscape 6 and IE 5.5, it is still a pain. IE isn't as standards compliant and Netscape 6 is still too immature. When you add the generation 4 versions into the picture, the task of developing anything remotely useful with one code base becomes nearly impossible.
This is why standards are so important. Except for unavoidable hacks, all of my applications use 100% standard code. Do any of them work with Lynx? Hell no. Why? Because Lynx isn't standards compliant. I need ECMAScript, DHTML, CSS, DOM and all of the other TLA's to make my application work and look right. If you choose to use a browser that doesn't support these standards when others are available that do, that's your perogative. Just don't come running to me when you can't do everything you want. I won't re-write my entire application just for you. On the other hand, if you have a disability that forces you to use such a browser, then we can talk.
That being said, if the problem with the bank is just a little JavaScript, it's silly for them not to fix it. It also shows a real lack of understanding on how the web should work.
David
I use www.usbank.com. They have just changed their online banking interface and I had problems with both Netscape and Mozilla. I called them and they said to use newest Netscape (4.75), I upgraded and it worked! However, Mozilla still does not work with USBANK online banking.
I have to use Netscape also for www.linuxmail.org and my work WebMail, mail.digitalgreen.com:8383.
This space intentionally left blank.
What about the whole generation of web-browsing devices that are coming out that _aren't_ desktop computers running Windows? For example, there's the "Internet Appliances", like our friends at Netpliance, the Compaq i-paq, and a whole bunch of competitors. I'm sure that web browsers in cars are coming soon, but they won't be running Internet Explorer, nor will they be running a desktop version of Windows. I think that there's an interesting chicken-and-egg problem here -- if not enough web sites are usable from standards compliant (but not Microsoft) browsers, these internet appliances are doomed to failure. However, without a large base of these clients, few web sites will be willing to "port" their code to more portable HTML.
Heya. I've read much of the above commentary and no one seems to've hit this part of things so I will.
Basic point: No online banking scheme is secure.
Sub-point: Some are more secure than others.
If your bank is not using SSL for online banking, stop right now and save yourself some trouble. Call them up and make sure that web access to your account is completely disabled. Without a lot of checking (which would be more of a pain in the ass than solving your problem -while- using your old bank... details below), you aren't likely to know whether internet traffic to your bank is properly handled and filtered or if there's another host at their end which can packet sniff. If they're just a colo or a virtual host on someone's webfarm, anyone else with an account on the same net can get curious.
If they use SSL, you're still not guaranteed security but it's at least not a completely trivial thing to get your account information. Then you get into OS security and how intelligent the hosting ISP -really- is when it comes to filtering at their routers. I've seen some that are. I've seen none that are vehemently pro-active about it. I'm fairly certain that many NT/Lucent shops out there are content to merely keep the frequency of reboots as low as possible. Sometimes a customer will want to keep using a piece of software that is dependant upon an outdated version of an OS (read: as secure as swiss cheese). That's where you really get into the necessity for filtering at the routers so that only the traffic that's absolutely necessary gets through.
Other posters have noted that there are protocols which are quite well suited for everything that could be needed for a (reasonably) secure and usable online banking transaction. You seem to understand the JavaScript used by this bank. If you telnet in to the server handling these transactions (and hopefully need to authenticate yourself via SSL) you can probably manually input any function you wish to call. I've not had personal experience with it, but I believe C-Kermit compiled with OpenSSL support will allow you to pull this off. It's all just bits in the end, and most of the time it's even ASCII. I've used similar methods to deal with mail via pop3 (and to a lesser extent smtp) for years. I didn't have a home base to read and save email onto, so learning a bit of the protocol was much easier than constantly installing and deleting mail clients. We don't need no stinking national ISP's! =)
Hope this helps some...
Lanir
The bank of america is a bunch of ripe bastards but their homebanking works on solaris / linux with no problem
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
Here in New Zealand every single bank has an internet banking service (in fact my bank www.bankdirect.co.nz is phone and internet only) only one of our banks (BNZ) services is OS dependant. When the first services were introduced the banks flirted with OS dependant sites but soon gave up. We also can do mostly everything via our web banking that we could do at a phisical bank I have had to ring my bank all of 2 times in the year and a half I have been with them. We also have a wide spread (95% of retail stores, including fast food , taxis and fuel pumps) EFTPOS (electronic fund transfer point of sale) system so hardly anyone uses Checks anymore and young people hardly even carry cash, this intergrated with internet banking is awesome as your money becomes alot easier to manage :-).
Whoever controls the present controls the past, whoever controls the past controls the future
...is an excellent bank for Net Banking. All they require is that your browser support 128-bit encryption. I haven't had any problems with it, either with Netscape OR Mozilla in Linux. Also, if you don't (or can't) walk into the bank to open an account, they offer full Net Checking, which is a completely net-wise checking (or savings) account. Check it out...
El riesgo vive siempre!
I've just signed up for Lloyds TSB online banking (in the UK). It works just fine without Javascript, and in Netscape under Linux. It needs cookies, but I was pleasantly surprised.
We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry!
It just hasn't ... so far (knock on fake wood laminate).
`ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
If you think you know the problem, can you point them to a fix??? This might make it more likely that they'll do something about the problem.
`ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
It's more local (Minneapolis area - but there's a few other states listed), but TCF seems to have a good online banking system (http://www.tcfexpress.com). I use it in Netscape for Linux, and seems to work fine with Java and Javascript turned off. I've never tried it from a windows machine, but I'm guessing it works fine there too.
That's funny, I don't remember ever getting spam from them. Thanks for the info, though.
I have found that Citibank web banking works excellently with Netscape on Linux, Netscape and IE on Mac, and Netscape and IE on Windows.
Why must this be specifically targetted to Geeks?
I was recently involved in a project to correct a minor javascript incompatability (a bug in IE for Mac's jscript) on a for-pay because the TD bank couldn't use it!
The reason these platform issues come up is that the people who have the power to make the decisions don't "get" the fundamental idea of the wwweb: that you should use a common language to communicate rather than a common tool. These people are often higher ups in IS who have a monopoly on technology decisions withing their company (or they are advised by the IS brass). They are driven to lower their overhead (ie. support costs) by simplifying their corporate environment and they do that by limiting their internal customer's choices. They really don't understand that you can't tell your EXTERNAL customers what to do and how to do it. It never occurs to them that, outside the company, their customers have lower cost and lower overhead alternatives.
-- "At Microsoft, quality is job 1.1" -- PC Magazine, Nov. 1994
The Canadian Imperial Back of Commerce works perfectly in my Netscape and Mozilla with the crypto pack...
As you use TD, I'm going to assume you're Canadian. And The Citizen's Bank of Canada is completely done online. They're some sort of a subsiduary of VanCity Bank which is a Vancouver bank, which I use for online banking. Now, since Vancity has a really good online system from what I've used, I'm going to assume that citizen's bank uses a pretty similar system and would be worth investigation.
VanCity Bank
Citizen's Bank of Canada
javajawa# sleep
Meh
First Direct are a classic example of people mis-understanding things. First Direct use a Java applet to provide online banking...but they'll only let you use IE4+.
Hard to imagine an example that more completely missed the point of the web, anytime/anywhere, etc.
Union Bank of California has decent online banking. Their stuff works fine with any browser.
Doesn't do you much good if you aren't in California, and Toronto ain't.
There is an increasing presence of "ActiveX" controls (I think that's what they are) on web pages -- they simply will not work with non-MS products.
It really is a shame to see the internet, paid for with taxes, much of it built for free in spare time, by fairly selfless people, as a open and standards compliant means of communication, get bastardized by the scum at microsoft.
But I completely agree that if you can find another bank that has employees with enough skill to make their web presence platform neutral, go for it.
Make sure you let the previous bank know why you left.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Web based banking over ssl, and downloading transactions to a personal finance app are different subjects that should be considered separately--I don't see that going on in this discussion. My experience is that most of the major banks that I would choose from to handle my accounts, already do web-based online banking just fine. Looking at the comments here I see that there are a few exceptions in the world. But there is an EASY solution to this problem: don't bank with these fuckhead companies and be sure to tell them why you're withdrawing all your money.
That leaves the second problem: none of the banks, Netscape friendly or otherwise, currently allow direct, online banking from your personal finance app -unless it is Quicken or Money on Mac or Windows. Currently all banks screw over Linux/BSD/SOlaris/etc. users. And also they screw over the many Macintosh users who have sworn to never be reamed by Intuit again like they were by the Y2K bug in Quicken for Mac. Mac being a Y2K safe platform, this failure was just an intolerable example of shoddiness, and I certainly understand a Mac user vowing never to buy an Intuit product again.
It has also not yet been said that there's NO GOOD REASON for this exclusiveness and active discrimination. The data format that direct online banking uses is Open and documented. It's called OFX. You can look it up and build your own client for it.
And there is ALSO a Java application available right now to download and enter your OFX formatted data to your machine regardless of whether you use Windows, Mac, Linux, *BSD, Solaris or any other OS with a upto date JAVA VM. It's called Moneydance --specifically the 3.0ALPHA version.
It's not in the regular download area yet for Moneydance at www.seanreilley.com/moneydance. You have to ask for it, but it does exist and I suspect its ALPLHA status has mainly to do with the refusal of the banks to connect to their online servers. You will also have to pay 25 dollars to enable the OFX banking features it has. Otherwise you can use it free of charge.
It is this refusal by the banks to allow non-Intuit non-MS clients to connect that has to be focussed on and overcome. A FTC investigation into cartel style collusion between Intuit and the banks might not be too wacky of an idea at some point. ALways remember this--YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER! And you are NOT asking them to do something special for you.
PLease contact your bank's online banking dept. (that little button that says "contact us") and request that Moneydance be allowed to connect to their servers-whether you actually plan to buy the fully function Moneydance 3 or not. There is no other way yet availble for you to do direct online banking from Linux or BSD and if they are blocking a closed source commercial Java app that is OFX compliant they will certainly block GnuCash when/if OFX support is added to it. You don't get your rights by always being polite and non-confrontational. It can be easy to forget that movements like the civil rights push in the 60s pissed off and upset a lot of semi-well meaning white people who were not overtly racist and didn't actively support apartheid laws and parties. We have rushed to smoothe over the rougher edges in our cultural memory, but if you look back at the documents of the civil rights era, you can see that civil rights were not achieved by saintly black people sending in a few well-written, poignant essays into their local newspapers editorial section and parading quietly and dispersing when told to by the police. Sometimes you do have to get in their faces and demand fair and equal treatment.
Johnny Quest has two Daddies.
I've been reasonably happy with bank's web service (although other kinds of services suck, probably because it's the biggest fish in the small pond). Just goes to show how much attitude dicates things; they've had the service available for years (same for all finnish banks actually I think). Of course, without internet-banking, it would be slightly difficult for me to use my account from USA now... :-)
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
In the UK I've tried the following banks successfully. Barclays is all server side so will work in anything which can do secure connections. Smile is a java client which is abit strange. It works fine in Netscape running in KDE, but just displays a blank screen in Netscape under Gnome. If anyone has any ideas about why whether I'm runnig KDE or Gnome should make a difference I'd really like to know!
Well if you want compatibility, go with Desjardins if you are located in Quebec
Seriously, I think if people are pissed at TD you should to a petition thing, emailing one by one is dissolving and they won't take it into account, but if they receive a petition with 2000 names on it for example, that can be heard.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Previously US West had a service that allowed customers access and pay telephone bills online. It was a good, cross-platform usable service. Since Qwest took over, they have moved it to a M$ specific service, using ActiveX, and using only Excel format spread-sheet files to provide billing information.
I wrote them a nasty letter about breaking a useful service for no apparent reason, to which they have not replied.
Probably their decision to take the service offline (that is what they have accomplished, imo) has to do with the investment capital they accepted from, and their subsequent "partnership" with, M$.
The Qwest servers are an order of magnitude slower than the US West servers were, too.
0x0000
"The Internet is made of cats."
Royal Bank's web services for banking work fine under Netscape/SuSE linux (I haven't tried the online investing). I was on support.dell.com the other day digging for info I needed to resurrect an old box and was annoyed to find that while the server was digging for my query all my other browser windows hung in various states of nothingness while the .asp loads/not loads. Not nice.
one better than mcleodeight
First Union has an online banking application that is entirely web based which lets me access all of my accounts (from checking to home equity line of credit) and has always been very reliable and worked on any browser with 128-bit encryption. It lets me write checks and do funds transfers online which is 99% of what I want to do. I've been very happy with it so far.
Shit happens, and you're not alone.
I had an interview recently with some consulting company that was asked to design a Java applet for a credit union in the South-East of the US that wanted to do an online banking. They had another credit union page with an example of such an applet.
They thought that it will take just a couple of months to build it, and haven't even had the server-side interfaces handy for me.
I have explained the M$-certified representative of this consulting company the scope of work, and he had told me that he'll communicate it to the client. After a couple of days I've received an call from him where he notified me that the client decided to make the Windoze/Exploder into a requirement and make everything in ActiveGoatSEX.
So much for the cross-platform Internet.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
I assume since you use TD that you're in Canada... I recommend switching to Royal Bank (no i don't work for them, but it's my bank). Their online banking uses no javascript... i do all my banking with Netscape 4, or mozilla... even checked my balance with lynx-ssl.
These "javascript incompatabilities" aren't really incompatabilities. Their script probably checks the OS/browser, and if it isn't one they recognize (IE winders/mac), they spit out an error. If you tweaked your browser to return a different browser/OS string it might work... =)
Bay Federal Credit Union in Santa Cruz, CA has some moderately ugly but low-graphics (fast loading!) web banking. It's all HTML Forms, with a frame, so as long as you can handle frames, forms, and 128 bit encryption, you can bank with them over the web. They give me excellent service, too.
I suspect most of the smaller banks who don't want to spend lots of money on a website will just want to get something fast and functional up, which doesn't mean javascript, at least under Aieeeeee! which is what most people (including myself, except when I'm running QNX) use.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I have been using SFNB since the begining of this year. I have never had a problem with them, unlike most of my family and friends who bank at a "real world" bank. The one time I needed to call SFNB they were nothing but helpful.
I'll second the recommendation for MBANX, A.K.A. the Bank of Montreal. I signed up for the service when it first became available in early 1997. They originally had fairly high service fees (about $10 per month, depending on balance) but dropped those on my account to about $2.50 a month a year or so ago. It's been particularly useful for me - I moved to the US in 1997, and having web access to my few remaining Canadian funds has been VERY useful. The only technical requirements to use their service seem to have been a browser supporting 128 bit SSL. It's been easier to get access to these in the last couple of years or so, even for furriners in the US... Yes, Jean Chretien, there IS a brain drain... Willy G.
No, you don't petition Quicken for a Linux version.
You petition the banks to use a non-proprietary, publicly documented data format. Anything will do -- CSV (oooh), XML, some new vCard/vCalendar-type entity, whatever.
You then download this data, parse it, and spin it into whatever you want under whatever platform you care to use. Heck, you could even release your parser (and app?) open-source.
Personally, I'd rather download CSV files and dump them into an Oracle database than browse my accounts on the web. It would take me about 20 minutes to come up with an appropriate parser, and Oracle handles rows and columns as good as any other piece of accounting-software-bullshit-crap.
Plus, it's easy to extract arbitrary data like that -- say, you want your business expenses for the month: "select expense from balancesheet where transactiontype='visa' and (details like '%hooker%' or details like '%hotel%') and date > 20001001 and amount > 0".
--
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
I'd bet money that if you forward a link to this /. then the TD would look a little closer at this problem. Especially if it's just a small bit of javascript.
rejected (19) accepted (0)
Is there a psychological term related to getting your stories rejected on slashdot?
It's great. I've cancelled my account at the BMO. The Presidents Choice Financial stuff works great. I allways use my interact card and was paying upwards to $20 per month on those stupid $1 service fees. With the PCF, they don't charge for any of those.
The web interface is good too. They'll let you download your transactions as a quicken or microsoft money file so it's easy to budget. You can do everything on-lline, as opposed to some banks where you have to physically go into the bank to get access to some of their services. I like it a lot and have recomended it to most of my family.
rejected (19) accepted (0)
Is there a psychological term related to getting your stories rejected on slashdot?
Doesn't the W3C release standards to promote this effect?
Yes, but the problem is, there is no good browser for Linux that follows these standards. Us web developers would like to use some features to enhance UI and the overall web experience. Technology changes, and we don't have time to code backward compatibility for a fraction of our customers. We target the 98%, not the 2% who use a platform without a W3C compliant browser.
What happens if I code a browser and it's not compatible. Should you code your site for _MY_ browser that only _I_ use? Then I say, "I should have a choice!". Well, I do have a choice, I choose to use a browser that's not compatible with your services... that's my problem. So, where does one draw the line?
Part of technology is rapid change, and unfortunatly Linux hasn't had good luck keeping up in the web browser category.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I think you're exagerating the issue. I'm not talking about poorly written HTML, I'm talking about a site that does work, and that DOES enhance the web experience. It does so by using an advanced UI and other features... unfortunatly your non w3c compliant browser doesn't support it... my customers love the site, because their browser works, and they aren't involved with OS, anti-M$ holy wars.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
First off, we aren't talking about poorly written HTML. I've written WAP and done enough with the "old school" browsers to appreciate the need for strict HTML. Yes, IE5 is way too forgiving (I don't even have to close a fricken table tag), but it also WORKS with most of the latest w3c specs. I've found Mozilla's support more on paper, then I have in real life. Gecko, Galeon, etc... crashes, incompatibilities, I love hearing my Linux friends at work swear up a storm everytime they try to visit a website - sometimes even their own fricken code!
W3C code is not inherintly backward compatible in many ways. For example, if I have a dynamic pulldown menu, it will _NOT_ display right AT ALL on Netscape 3 to the point where one has to force the user to an upgrade screen because the user experience would be more damaging then not.
Oh well, all of this arguing is moot. I know that the vast, vast majority of users love my sites, their enhanced UI, and enhanced functionality. The rest are stuck with "be compatible with my lynx" illogical holy wars. Not my cup of tea...
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Force you? That's like saying if you wrote a utility that only worked on Linux that you where forcing people to move off of windows or mac to use your utility.
The user can not and should not have full control over how a site looks or performs. This promotes inconcitancy and eventually "web anarchy" - a company has a right to how their image appears.
If you can't be bothered to write something that works without crap like Javascript and Flash then you obviously don't want me at your site!
You're absolutly right. I'm looking for a more sophisticated user that allows me to use advanced technologies to enhance their web browsing experience. Those who do not appreciate it are a waste of bandwidth and CPU cycles.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
In the US, if you couldn't do your banking with lynx on a text console I think the bank could be sued under the Americans with Disabilities Act. As I recall, the only browsers that blind people can reasonably use are text-based browsers (through some form of text-to-speech conversion). AOL had some trouble over this within the last year or two (they settled by agreeing to spend money on developing interfaces for the blind, IIRC) and a bank is a "public accommodation" that should be subject to the ADA. If there are similar laws in Canada, pointing this out might do the trick.
It's the same with _any_ bank on Earth. If you can't find a trust company (they're all gone in Canada, except Canada Trust, which is about dead through mergers) or a credit union, keep your money in your mattress.
I do not use credit cards, I keep no bank accounts. Credit cards are like gambling, and banks these days are too greedy. And if the banks don't like it, they can suck on my left testicle.
Manage your own money, you'll be better off that way.
Chris 'coldacid' Charabaruk Meldstar Entertainment
Summit bank works quite well on all the platforms I've tried. In addition, their support staff is intelligent and friendly.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Having lived the frustration of dealing with all the bugs of Netscape, I sympathize with the bank. I know that I finally gave up and barely tested under Netscape for Windows, much less Netscape for any other operating system.
Instead of blaming the bank (and anyone who refuses to deal with crap software), how about if the Unix world finally writes a decent browser? And that may or may not be Mozilla ("may not" seems more likely based on what I've seen so far). The browser issue is making a laughingstock of the whole OSS movement ("heck, they can't even write a decent browser").
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Been using them about since they opened, and the majority of my banking is done from HP-UX and Linux, but have also had success w/ Windows, Mac, Mac OS X and various other. My only problem has been BeOS (need decent javascript!). I think even QNX worked.
It is the same old stories about being standards compliant that everyone is always singing, just slightly off key in some places.
--------- Never ask a geek why, unles you REALLY want to know.
but really, Telstra is the Microsoft of Australia. Big, uncompetetive, will to do *ANYTHING* to protect its monopoly... at the moment their product manager for ADSL doesn't even know what RADIUS is, and will not even attempt to understand it, even though they are using it to authenticate. You can bet that as soon as there is a competitor in the marketplace that they will drop prices like nothing else and know exactly how the product works.
I use the CIBC secure online banking without a problem with Netscape 4.7(?(current Linux Version..)) on Linux without fail. The service is terrific. You register bills and pay them online (without any trouble - I recently registered "University of Windsor" as the 'bill' and put in "studentnumberhere" as 'account' to register UofW and paid my tuition. Terrific.), you can also post date payment (so you pay your Visa bills on time - about 12 hours before they are due. :)
I would recommend it. Its free - and you never have to a bank again. Mostly.
The problem described here is not the OS but the browser and specifically JVM. The coders should be simply coding more closely to the Java Standard (teehee, atleast what there is of one) - and hard HTML. Simple enough, with a proper browser the OS is truely unimportant.
Sorry - just saw this: a demo of CIBC PC Banking will let you use the system without having an account.
I found this website which does bank reviews. Many might find it interesting.
Canada's banks have a problem which inhibits their responsiveness to retail customers. They have been ramping up their foreign operations so that they can "compete globally". The domestic market is very small by comparison. What this means to Canadian banking customers is that the banks have less and less incentive to cater to the domestic customer. They basically don't care about Canadians very much. Also, because banks are so heavily regulated in Canada, the major banks face very limited competition. They can be as rude and ignorant as they want (and they often are) without fear of customers deserting them en masse.
Banks also have worked long and hard to develop features that make switching providers very inconvenient. I am right now trying to switch from Bank of Montreal to a Credit Union, but since my pay is automatically deposited, loan payments and other monthly expenditures are automatically withdrawn from my account, etc. I'm going to have a very hard time moving from one to the other.
In circumstances where private interests (the interests of bank owners) conflict with public interests (a stable banking system is essential to commerce) and free-market substitution of services is not practical, people should consider whether the benefits provided by (necessarily limited) competition really outweigh the costs of vendor lock-in. We really ought to think about nationalizing banks in Canada and making them into one large crown corporation like the post office. Since there isn't ever going to be real competition in the Canadian banking industry anyways, why should we suffer with no control over our fate?
On this subject, when attempting to get ADSL installed in Australia, our largest Telco (and in reality only) http://www.telstra.com informs me that to get ADSL I am required to have a Microsoft or Macintosh operating system AND have physical copies of original software present or they will not install.
Bit of a bitch really, as I work for a large consulting firm (hint, it's changing it's name soon and it wasn't bought out...) that has a global liscence with Microsoft. I also run linux as well on my own PC, so either way don't have "orignal disks present".
When querying about Linux, was told categorically "Linux is not a supported platform for ADSL in Australia." and then told outright if I only used linux I simply could not have ADSL. I mean really guys, the ethernet card already works and is configured for DHCP, it's just a matter of plugging the blue cable into the ADSL modem.
- Oh, thats right, it's an open source blue cable that Telstra doesn't have a strategic alliance with.
Well, perhaps it's a feature, not a bug...
Hope this helps :O)
--
Garett
The Canada Trust online banking works just fine. Ironic, because CT is owned by Toronto Dominion :-)
I've used the CT online stuff for several years under Linux with no problems whatsoever.
Can't pay your bills though :(
been there, done that - a year is about what most mac people have to deal with - everyone from banks to the opera crew to m$ deals with...
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
It just seems astounding that anyone would be stupid enough to code their pages specifically to turn customers away.
Interestingly enough, I think there is
either a merger in progress or it has happened already with Toronto Dominion and Canada Trust.
Now, approximately 6 months ago I sent a similiar email regarding the whole Linux compatibility issues. Within the last few weeks I logged into the Canada Trust website under Netscape 4.7 (whichever version comes with RH7) and it worked.
Worked perfectly.
Now if a merger has occured already, I would assume they would have the same website developers work on both sites. Since this would save money and put everything in one department.
Oh - I forgot, this makes logical sense, and of course management doesn't think logically.(well, sometimes it does)
Question to you /.'ers out there:
Is there a site that will simulate what a particular browser will see under a particular OS?
For instance, under Windows NT using NS4.72, what will the screen look like, and under Mac running NetScape, what does it look like, etc... How do all the data fields react to the particular JavaScript implementation? It would be a great way of testing a Bank website, or any website for that matter.
I don't know what system you're using, but for me, I use TD Access Web to do all my web banking for Toronto Dominion, and I haven't booted to Windows in months!!!! Netscape 4.73 128bit for Linux. But I presume anything that'll do heavy encryption should suffice. This is leaps and bounds above TD's old system which was a Windows application that dialed up through a modem, which they used about a year and a half ago if I remember correctly. I love TD Access Web!!!
I quickly realized the site was coded by complete goofballs. Aside from the requirement for recent Netscape or IE, the site is very unreliable with any kind of slow connection, because it does Javascript between frames so if you click before all frames have finished loading, it kicks you back to the login page. At other times, just any random operation goes back to the login page, or the login may fail with an internal ASP error.
When I e-mailed a complaint, I was told "oh that's because too many people are trying to use the site at once". Pfffft. The best workaround I could find was to use the FRENCH part of the site because presumably fewer people were loading those pages.
I sent them some comments suggesting they move the security stuff onto the server, but couldn't get any response. I phoned the national support line to file a complaint, they wouldn't take it.
I don't have any advice for a replacement Canadian bank. This kind of techno-stupidity from one of the biggest Canadian corporations reaffirms my decision to work in the US.
Wait a minute... JVM ? Weren't we talking about Javascript ?
where there's fish, there's cats
While staying in California, I had good experiences with Wells Fargo. Simple web pages, no JavaScript/Java trickery. Worked from Netscape/NT, IE/NT and Netscape/Linux.
I only used their checking/saving account functions, so I have no idea about, say, investment, mortgages, loans and such. Checking account was free in my case, though.
-- H. Wilker
One of the major banks in Poland - Peako S.A. - has a web banking solution that one of my friends even uses with SSL-enabled Lynx. No Java, no ActiveX, just pure, standard HTML.
Their web banking solution was first in that country (they operate it for at least three years), it's quite secure (token-based) and very popular.
I know that won't help much the original poster, but I thought it might be of interest...
Does onybody remember when the Web was supposed to be the thing that made OS irrelevant, the thing that was supposed to be platform-independant?
Doesn't the W3C release standards to promote this effect?
And doesn't MS and Netscape blatently ignore these standards (specifically to create a platform-dependant experience, in the case of MS a Windows-dependant experience...)
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I lay the blame for ruining the interoperability of the web squarely on the major browser writers.
Who would have thought that Free (as in beer) software from companies with an agenda could do so much damage?
Of course, you have to have been in the service to enroll with usaa.
This bank is 100% online. Their transactions are all real time (online transactions post with zero time delay), and their interest rates are outstandidng. At one time they had an incompatibility with linux (when they were first starting out) but they fixed this with a pretty good response time. Another important issue -- their customer service is excellent. http://www.firstib.com
"My job is being right when other people are wrong." -- George Bernard Shaw
Bank of Nova Scotia provides two methods to connect to on-line banking. The first is a proprietary authorization software client, and the second is a simplified pure web-interface that in fact does work with Netscape in Linux. I e-mailed Bank of Nova scotia around two months ago with a complaint that they were eliminating a portion of their customer base by not supporting all OS's with their software (as well as their stupid software requirement meant that too use web banking on any other machine required the installation of that software...). Anyway shortly thereafter they put up the following site which, as you can see, no longer requires that software. The software was only necessary way back when browsers did not come with 128 bit encryption. Scotiabank wished to provide 128 bit encryption and thus created that piece of software to circumvent the absence of the encryption in the browsers of the time.
most large corporations, banks, etc. The problem is that most of the world out there doesn't know much about an operating system, let alone that there are so many types out there. They just implement what most of their clients will use.
The total number of non Windows using clients that bank has is probably very small. They really couldn't care, plus the bank's systems are probably implemented by some coder who just got into the business for the money, doesn't probalby know much either, and he/they jsut don't want to bother. They did what the book told them for implementing this stuff, and that's enough.
It's really bad for free OS people, but what can you do? Joe Schmoe out there doesn't care about what OS he uses.
-"Those who fought today will die tommorow."-
*why* is the bank using JavaScript code in the first place? my bank (http://www.foreningssparbanken.se/) , although only valid for you if you live in Sweden :)), doesn't use JavaScript/Java code in the web interface. its a simple mess of table code and forms. security? not to worry about. when you log in, you need a code generator. they give you 8 digits, you give them 8 digits back. submitted by simple forms. you want to do transactions? they give you another 8 digits (normally translation of the value in the transaction), you verify the value by giving back 8 other digits. pure HTML. no crap. the encoder (little mini computer thingy) is coded based on your bank id, so - no two bank customers can get the same codes. works like a dream. why would a bank have JavaScript? show a flashy menu? pfft. geeks dont need flashy menus.
PNC's system works with all current versions of Netscape with 128 bit SSL. Works with IE too (I've been told.) And when all else fails - like the battery in my laptop - there's the 800 number. Best thing to happen to banking since the ATM.
click here for PNC Bank
Linux is definately an up-and-coming OS. It's getting some very popular ports, and will only get more as time goes on.
A bank that would choose to lose customers rather than fix something that will, most likely, be a big problem in the future is very stupid, in my opinion. Maybe only a handfull of users need it now, but thats still customers. And what about if (when!) it goes mainstream. Wouldn't you rather be on top of it and say you support it, rather than have to deal with it when it becomes and issue and loses you business?
It's not for everybody
I haven't tried it, but it's on a local morning show (Sarah & Vinnie) and they advertise it EVERY day, so I just thought I'd throw it out there. Help them make their ad bucks worth something. ^_^
It's not for everybody
I work as at Scotiabank (Bank of Nova Scotia) as a Customer Service Representative and there is no linux support for our banking software either...this is probably partly due to the fact that Scotiabank has partnered with MS to create www.e-scotia.com One of the only reasons i keep windows running on this system is so that i can pay my cable inernet bill online.
I like how easy it is to pay all of my bills! I don't have to leave the house! I can stay in and keep being a computer geek! Ya!
Shifter
Bank of Montreal Online (formerly Mbanx), works fine for me with Netscape on top of Solaris, Linux, Irix, and FreeBSD. I have heard tell that CIBC also works fine no matter what OS the browser is running on top of. It isn't difficult to make an OS-independent web page. What is much tougher is to make a web-surfing-gear-independent web page. TD should get off their behinds and remove all OS dependencies from their pages.