KDE 3.0RC3: Prepare to Fall in Love

Dre writes "As announced on dotsy, the first day of the Season of Love (for us Northerners, anyway) brings us the KDE 3.0 final release candidate, KDE 3.0RC3. Besides fixes for any remaining crashes and grave bugs, this release will become KDE 3.0, scheduled to free the world in early April. Having benefitted from a week-long hacking session early this month, I can report that this release is very solid and, best of all, much snappier than prior releases, particularly Konqueror. Downloads are available through KDE's load-balancing mirror system. Since this is principally a show-stopper release, things are on an expedited schedule; more binary packages will appear in the next few days, and shortly thereafter KDE 3.0 will be tagged."

Comments

good game

[Vodak]

KDE makes a great piece of eye candy for people when your trying to convert them Linux from a windows operating system. I'm glad that this and gnome continue to improve it only makes it easy to convince people to try something other then Win32.

Re:good game

[fizz-beyond]

not to nit pick, but when XP came out and MS did all the grouping thing, it was pointed out to me that before Gnome/KDE did it, it was in BeOS, so I don't know if I would say MS pinched that from KDE, but more likely from BeOS

GCC 3.0

[Spyffe]

I think it's important that this have support for compilation with the GCC 3.0 series. Otherwise it's not freeing my world from the iron grip of Enlightenment (haha!)

Seriously, though, what work is being done on this?

Re:GCC 3.0

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm afraid you'll have to ask the GCC crew as
all the problematic bug fixes needed for compilation
were reported shortly after 3.0, yet still, there
are compilation problems.

Basically, from what i've heard if you use 3.0.4
with no opimisation then you should be pretty sorted :)
(excepting mcopidl - part of arts - which probably
still has problems even after all this time)

In other words, wait for gcc 3.1 :)
Alex

Re:GCC 3.0

[HeUnique]

Add Netscape Plugins support which won't run due to missing symbols - so if you want Netscape Plugins - you'll need to compile that part statically in GCC 2.9x..

I think Mozilla has the same problems (if you compile it with GCC 3.x)

Re:GCC 3.0

[sonnyjz]

never use a .0x series to begin with if you are using it for production.

Re:GCC 3.0

[Isle]

Why wait?

Gcc 3.1 is already way more stable than gcc 3.0.4, and the gcc 3.0 series has been promised never to work, since the bug fix is to large for a stable release and is basically called 3.1 :-)

Btw. gcc-3.1 has already branched in the gcc cvs. So check-out gcc-3_1-branch

Mandrake's april release

[Red Weasel]

I wonder if mandrake will change there april distro to reflect this.

Save me some download time at any rate.

Re:Mandrake's april release

[Red Weasel]

That's true. How about for the PowerPack. Is that set in stone like the distro or can that be changed without too much hype?

Re:Mandrake's april release

[Tower]

It shouldn't be too long after KDE3 is released that there would be rpms available for 8.2, and I'd venture a guess that they would make their way into the Mandrake Update sites - I know it doesn't solve the problem for standalone or low bandwidth machines, but this is one of the continuing issues - distro X is released just before the next full release of (KDE/Gnome/Mozilla/XFree/Tuxracer/ls)... Trying to coordinate between the various distros and every major project is, at this time, well beyond what can be easily done... moving targets for kernels, compilers, browsers, desktop enviornments, X servers, etc, etc, etc, etc cause enough problems when limited to their own little worlds.

The relative abundance of bandwidth and CD burners makes releases a little easier - you have most of what you want in a distro, and chances are you can download the updates, or someone you know can get them and burn them for you.

Re:Mandrake's april release

[nege]

Yea I noticed that mandrake will not include either of the gnome or kde releases in 8.2...the only reason I could come up with is that they might do a 9.0 shortly after! (why would you release a distro right before one of the biggest moments in x desktop history??)

Re:Mandrake's april release

[danro]

Because Mandrake needs cash now!
...or they will have to lay of some of their people.
I placed a preorder for the 8.2 boxed set last night, while i was downloading the distro, just to support them.

Everyone that uses Mandrake should do this, or join the Mandrake Users Club. It's not very expensive and I get a nice boxed set, and some dead tree manuals.

I am pretty sure the Users Club membership could be really useful also, at least for linux newbies.

I almost wish...

[samdu]

...Mandrake had waited a few weeks and included KDE3.

-Sam

Re:I almost wish...

[GigsVT]

That's not quite how it works. Assuming that Mandrake is anything like Red Hat (the distro I am much more familiar with), then they would have to delay their release well past the release of KDE3.0 to allow for quality testing before including it in the distro.

Re:I almost wish...

[ShavenYak]

Mandrake claims they will have KDE 3.0 packages available for 8.2 when it's released. I'd much rather they give us a thoroughly tested and functional 2.2.2 and let us upgrade to 3.0 when we're ready.

Re:I almost wish...

[grylnsmn]

8.2 does contain KDE 3.0 packages, but not as the default. The specifically state that they are providing the latest stable release (2.2.2) as well as version 3.0(RC2, I believe) for those who want the "bleeding edge".

Re:I almost wish...

[Shotgun]

I'd rather they give use Mandrake 8.3, and make sure everthying worked together. I'm holding off on upgrading until I hear that everything is stable together, then I will pay the $60 for their club membership and download an ISO.

I've reluctanly entered the 'end-user' club. I want my computer to do things without having to CONSTANTLY fiddle with things not related to what I want to do. I want a nice simple script to set up the networked workstation as a firewall and then be done with networking. Mandrake seems to keep promising this, and I'm willing to pay for it, but I don't want to have to constantly be upgrading huge pieces of the OS. (and yes, I consider the window manager to be part of the operating system, because it is part of the system that I use to operate the computer.)

Re:I almost wish...

[cheetham]

I'm glad SuSE have waited a bit. ;-)
http://www.suse.com/en/products/suse_linux/i3 86/in dex.html

Re:I almost wish...

[cheetham]

Here's a link to the page about KDE3 in SuSE 8 - for people who can't be bothered to find it themselves :-)

Re:I almost wish...

[xcomputer_man]

One of the focuses of Mandrake 8.2 is stability and bug-free-ness. They opted not to put KDE 3.0 because, despite all its strong points, it's bound to have a nasty bug or two when it is released -- after all, we're talking about a brand new version of Qt and lots of code porting, plus plenty of new features. They would rather stick with what has gone through a long, thorough bug-weeding process. Of course, that doesn't mean they deny you KDE 3.0 either - IIRC there are KDE 3.0 beta packages already in the release, and if you want to upgrade, you can always do it later through the cooker.

Re:I almost wish...

[1%warren]

That's what they have done. 2.2.2 in Mandrake 8.2 is much better than 2.2.1 from 8.1. 3.0.rc2 (iirc, might be beta2) is avalable from Mandrake cooker if you want to play with it.

Re:I almost wish...

[1%warren]

The release .iso's of 8.2 *don't* include KDE 3.0 - apparently sombody goofed with the advert. You can get it from cooker though.

Well,

[theridersofrohan]

Downloads are available through KDE's load-balancing mirror system

It seems to handle the load pretty well, i mean, load balancing all those 404 errors :)

Re:Well,

[Apreche]

seriously, I mean can we find a decent place to mirror anything? I still can't download mandrake 8.2 and that was 2 or 3 days ago. Seem like nobody knows how to set up an ftp that works these days.

Re:Well,

[BrookHarty]

I downloaded mandrake iso already, finished this morning.

Only 8K the entire time. (-;

Re:Well,

[xZAQx]

It's not FTP.

Money is tight nowadays.
And nothing is stopping you from buying a OC3 pipe, and setting up your own FTP mirror for KDE/mandrake/whatever.

Oh, except money.

"can we find a decent place to mirror anything? "

I guess I just answered your question.

Re:Well,

[elfkicker]

Tip for the wise... Don't trust Mandrake's download page to tell you where to find it. As soon as those listings are updated, they're slammed. Instead, try looking for places that carry older versions, very often, they'll have an un-advertised 8.2 as well.

Personally, I rsynced it from the same place the mirrors do. Great speed, but they limit the connects to 10, so you'll have to get in line.

I'll leave the locations as an exercise for the user.

Re:Well,

[tongue]

I have found that mirrors which aren't based in the US are often much faster and more reliable than those that are; granted, i'm not a very good citizen for using non-local mirrors... but i've always been a bit anti-social anyway.

Screenshots

[rutger21]

You just have to look at the Keramik theme and the Conectiva Crystal icon theme. It is going to be a bright, bright future.

Re:Screenshots

[cybrthng]

odd.. those icons look very much like XP/2k icons heh.

oh well. nice pictures.. looking like a big improvement, but still blocky/QT looking inside the widgets.. sweet borders though!

Re:Screenshots

[Anonymous Coward]

Note these might be ready and included in KDE 3.1, but not KDE 3.0!

Re:Screenshots

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

The Crystal Icons seem to be very little more than a myth still, though. Everaldo (the artist of the icon set) has been saying for months that he'll release them in April. We'll see...

Personally, I still prefer the Slick Theme over them any day.

And I should probably go ahead and plug Mosfet's Liquid Theme which should have a (back-ported from KDE3) release out soon. :-) It all makes for a very purty desktop! Keep it up everyone!

Re:Screenshots

[Quill_28]

>odd.. those icons look very much like XP/2k icons heh.

Is this a bad thing?

Seriously, MS spent millions(from what I understand) studying GUI's and making them look better. Their windowing system make lack(I still want the focus to follow my mouse, among other things) but I say the "look" has been well researched, use the best parts of it.

thoughts?

Re:Screenshots

[Anonymous Coward]

(I still want the focus to follow my mouse, among other things)

Install TweakUI, turn on X-Mouse. Problem solved.

Re:Screenshots

[Fizzlewhiff]

Nice look but I think I liked it better the first time around when it was called Windows XP, or was that Mac OS X? Sometimes I think Apple was the only one paying attention to their "Think Different" ads.

Re:Screenshots

[cybrthng]

Your statement is so full of irony it isn't funny.

"MS spent millions(from what I understand) studying GUI's and making them look better"

So it is okay for kde developers to essentially 'steal' the ideas and push it in a free product and that makes us better then Microsoft because it is linux and not windows.

Oh well. I just said i thought it was strange how the linux paradox is feeding from the windows look and defended as such. Yet windows is so horribly bad for whatever reason and just because this is KDE it is great.

We all have opinions like we all have assholes. You can certainly do in windows what you can do in linux and vice versa. Just find it funny as emulation is just a way to show appreciation for a superior product. (yet any linux user will try and prove that invalid). Just like people try and emulate peoples ideas, procedures, knowledge and resources, they do it because of the reason you said, someone spent millions developing a product that works, looks great and sold it to the market.

Just my 2 cents.

Re:Screenshots

[Rentar]

'Though I usually agree, I don't see how Keramik is in any way a rip-off of WinXP and Aqua? Quite contrary, it is finally a creative, non-ripped-off, good-looking, clean and useable theme. (We've already had lots of themes, that had most of these attributes, but IMHO none every had _each_ of these).

Re:Screenshots

[ryanvm]

Why is it that when Windows XP came out, all we heard from /.ers is:
"Ugh, it's so candy-coated I can't stand it."

But when a KDE theme does it 6 months later it's:
"Oooh pretty. It is going to be a bright, bright future."

I'm no Microsoft apologist, but come on people, make up your minds.

Re:Screenshots

[DrSkwid]

they are fucking hideous

Re:Screenshots

[jonnythan]

Not specific to the screenshot, but the print dialog is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.

The taskbar system is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.

Even the HELP SYSTEM is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.

The background *is* the default Mac OS X background.

You're going to tell me that the round, bubbly blue title bars (whose construction are directly lifted from Windows'), were not directly inspired by the latest OS's from Apple and Microsoft?

When is Linux going to stop aiming to be JUST LIKE WINDOWS! and do something "innovative" in the GUI area?

Oh, that's right. THEY WON'T, simply because all those open source programmers are PROGRAMMERS and know nothing about UI design!

There's a REASON you won't find any UI features in KDE that haven't already appeared in Windows or Mac OS. Microsoft and Apple pay people who deserve the money BIG BUCKS to design UI's and perform focus groups.

Re:Screenshots

[biostatman]

I'm as much of a screenshot hound as the next guy, but being able to compete on "eye candy" is not, IMHO, a positive virtue. I want the GUI to compete on ease of use and innovations that makes people more productive; whether that results in more "eye candy" or not.

While the shots are nice, and KDE3 is indeed looking great, I would be really happy if the following (at a minimum) were addressed (esp. if this could be done in a standard way between GNOME and KDE):

Common Keyboard Shortcuts
A Modern Clipboard
Good Drag & Drop
A Very Simple and Functional Menu System
Good Keyboard Navigation (ironically, one of the best things about MS Windows Explorer)

If Linux is to be adopted on the desktop, I think these are the issues that ought to be trumpeted (if they are worth trumpeting).

Re:Screenshots

[adubey]

I'm no Microsoft apologist, but come on people, make up your minds

And I think there, my friend, you have inadvertintly stumbled on to the reason why the ``Slashdot'' viewpoint seems to be incoherent: it's not a single person's views.

Re:Screenshots

[Rentar]

Not specific to the screenshot, but the print dialog is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.

Surprise, they do the same thing, besides this Print dialog has some functions that the windows one doesn't (like hiding the lower half, filtering printers and doing HTML-Settings ('though I don't know what to find there)). Btw, which windows printing dialog do you mean? I know that there is a default, but I just tried 3 programs: Mozilla 0.9.9, Notepad and Word 2000. And each of them had a different printing dialog)

The taskbar system is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.

Just 'cause the one who did the screenshot likes it that way. The default looks different and you get much more functionality.

Even the HELP SYSTEM is EXACTLY THE SAME AS WINDOWS'.

You mean "exactly the same" as in "using HTML to store & display linked documents"? Wow, quite invoative from Microsoft. Beside, again windows is not consistent (Word doesn't use the default-windows help system), whereas KDE is.

The background *is* the default Mac OS X background.

Granted, but this is definitely not the default in any distribution

You're going to tell me that the round, bubbly blue title bars (whose construction are directly lifted from Windows'), were not directly inspired by the latest OS's from Apple and Microsoft?

Yes, I am. Creative use of the SHAPE-Extension for windows decorations have been around much longer than OS X and Windows XP. Take a look at Blue Steel, and theme that came default with Enlighenment 0.16 (which according to Freshmeat came out October 1999, long before anyone thought about Windows 2000). It has a shaped (i.e. not strictly rectangular) title bar.

When is Linux going to stop aiming to be JUST LIKE WINDOWS! and do something "innovative" in the GUI area?

As soon as you do some work in this direction. This is Open Source after all.

Oh, that's right. THEY WON'T, simply because all those open source programmers are PROGRAMMERS and know nothing about UI design!

I doub that the one who did Keramik is a programmer. Even if he is, he is also a great artist.

There's a REASON you won't find any UI features in KDE that haven't already appeared in Windows or Mac OS. Microsoft and Apple pay people who deserve the money BIG BUCKS to design UI's and perform focus groups.

You do now that both Microsoft and Apple also have programms that perform very poorly in usability tests? Take a look at the Interface Hall of Shame. There are quite some MS-products in there (and even Apples Quicktime). Sometimes they even make a bad UI for political reasons, which you most probably won't find in open source projects.

Hm ... so much work for a Troll, but I think it's worth it.

Re:Screenshots

[JabberWokky]

Yup... and there are still plenty of diehard KDE users (like, for example, myself) who hate that look. Luckily, the look that everybody is discussing as "KDE" is a third party, non-standard theme. Personally, I like the QNix style with the Web Window Decoration, which looks like QNX's Photon, plus a totally unique WM look.

This is a bit like me saying "Gnome is a ripoff of Windows... look at it!".

--
Evan

Re:Screenshots

[oojah]

(I still want the focus to follow my mouse, among other things)

You can do this with TweakUI. Been around since at least Win98 as far as I know.

Roger

Re:Screenshots

[ncc74656]

Seriously, MS spent millions(from what I understand) studying GUI's and making them look better.

...and failed miserably, IMHO. Try creating a quick-launch bar and then copy the Calculator and Notepad shortcuts from the start menu into the quick-launch bar. In WinXP, the icons are so similar that you have to look carefully to tell the difference. On my Win2K boxen, the Calculator and Notepad icons are easily distinguishable by shape and shading. Everything in XP looks like the same pastel shades...maybe the focus groups liked it, but I think it makes things more difficult.

(There's an option to at least get rid of the hideous new title bars, start menu, etc. and replace them with the older types. It's too bad this wasn't extended to replacing the icons as well.)

I still want the focus to follow my mouse, among other things

Ick...that's been a major annoyance for me with the twm that's bundled with the Cygwin port of X. If something accidentally moves the mouse to another window, the focus shifts? No thanks. Fortunately, KDE doesn't suffer from this deficiency...you either Alt-Tab to the window or you click on it to bring it into focus, which is The Way Things Ought To Be. (I feel a holy war coming on...:-))

Re:Screenshots

[MrBoring]

Can we all get off this theme/skin kick? Really, the whole point of the new release was better connectivity between applications. Better integration. People who worship command lines should focus more on how things work, not on how things look.

Re:Screenshots

[rseuhs]

There's a REASON you won't find any UI features in KDE that haven't already appeared in Windows or Mac OS.

Can I jump to a location on a scrollbar with the MMB in any version of Windows or MacOS? No.

Can I use up to 16 desktops in any version of Widnows or MacOS (without ugly 3rd party tools)? No.

Can I create bookmark directories in IE without launching a helper-app? No.

In contrast to you, I do know both KDE and Windows, and the Windows-GUI is pretty worthless compared to any KDE-version after 2.0

Re:Screenshots

[MrBoring]

All good suggestions. As I posted on a higher level, people focus too much on skins. Others I suggest:

* Make use of the Win Key! (Or some other replacement). It's really nice to have ONE keystroke that gets me almost everywhere I need to go under windows. Also, copy the Ctrl-Insert, Shift-Delete, combo's.
* Merge better with XFree project. Wouldn't it be great if I could simultaneously configure KDE and X because they share similar options?
* Somehow better integrate KDE with other parts of Linux so that similar devices don't have to be configured twice. On an earlier release, for instance, I had to define the backspace key both in X and under the console mode.
* Better proxy support, ideally for all relevant applications--configured in one place. I really hate dealing with firewalls, and this might be a good place to do battle with those things.
* Never make me edit a text file to configure a system setting. The less I have to know about what file to edit, where it is, and what the format is, the better and faster I'd be.

RealBoring

Re:Screenshots

[sabi]

Can I jump to a location on a scrollbar with the MMB in any version of Windows or MacOS? No.

Actually, yes you can... OS X supports this (it can be the default, too). Since there's no multiple-button mouse it's Option-click for the 'other' action (page up/down or scroll to here) but it's simple enough to bind that to the middle mouse button if you wish.

Can I create bookmark directories in IE without launching a helper-app? No.


'bookmark directories'?

Re:Screenshots

[athakur999]

One other nice thing (may already be in KDE3, I dunno) is the ability to change your desktop resolution and color depth via a little GUI applet ala Windows.

Telling Aunt Tilly she has to run XF86config to go from 1024x768 to 800x600 won't fly :)

Re:Screenshots

[cthrall]

> Its been mostly grey and blocky.

I'm guessing you haven't used XP.

Re:Screenshots

[T3kno]

Actually I was one of those people that thought and still thinks that XP is nasty looking and feeling, and from the quick look that I took the crystal icon theme is about the same level of nastyness as XP is. I do like the feel of KDE though. I'll install the Crystal on my kids computer, I'll keep mine the way it is. You can go play with autohide on Windows 95.

Re:Screenshots

[sssparkkk]

I doubt that the one who did Keramik is a programmer. Even if he is, he is also a great artist.

I believe the style was designed by the photoshop wizard "qwertz", and the programming was done by Malte Starostik.

Re:Screenshots

[fredrik70]

I have made up my mind.. I still think it look like shit. w2K gonna be my last windows I use...
And on my Linux boxen that theme is *banned*

Re:Screenshots

[sewagemaster]

...right. note that these two screenshots and that the authors decided not to upload the themes, so right now there still isnt anything available there yet.

Re:Screenshots

[quantaman]

As has already been said it was the default XP theme that is unspeakably ugly. After I installed it (free upgrade) I was able to work for about 5 min before I changed it to classic theme because couldn't stand the colours. Later on I changed it to their silver theme, shrunk the menu bars a bit and have been almost as happy as with my old mac.

Re:Screenshots

[zsmooth]

You do now that both Microsoft and Apple also have programms that perform very poorly in usability tests? Take a look at the Interface Hall of Shame [iarchitect.com]. There are quite some MS-products in there (and even Apples Quicktime). Sometimes they even make a bad UI for political reasons, which you most probably won't find in open source projects.

The Interface Hall of Shame would have a field day with most the open source apps out there. Definitely not all, but most. You'll also notice that Microsoft has several features listed in the Hall of Fame.

Re:Screenshots

[Brian Knotts]

kwm and twm both allow you to choose whatever focus policy you prefer. With kwm, you choose focus policy in the KDE Control Center. For twm, I think you just tweak the .twmrc.

Re:Screenshots

[bero-rh]

There is one major difference: In KDE; you can turn off all the eyecandy, so everyone gets what he likes.

Re:Screenshots

[HerbieStone]

Why is it that when Windows XP came out, all we heard from /.ers is: "Ugh, it's so candy-coated I can't stand it."

But when a KDE theme does it 6 months later it's: "Oooh pretty. It is going to be a bright, bright future."

Ah, I know, I know. Because your own baby will allways be the most beautiful on the world.

Re:Screenshots

[A55M0NKEY]

A desktop environment needs to solve a certain set of problems. Desktop GUIs have been evolving long enough that the best ways of solving those problems have already been discovered, and are implemented in all commonly used desktop environments including KDE and Gnome

Re:Screenshots

[mkmiller]

The best UI was designed a long time ago. It was done by a little company called NeXT. That is why I use windowmaker. KDE blows. If I wanted windows, I would...well you know.

Re:Screenshots

[tagevm]

It seems your CAPS LOCK key has a habit of getting stuck from time to time, I suggest you check your keyboard, and ,if necessary, buy a new one ;-)

Re:Screenshots

[redcliffe]

There were a couple of features that MS copied from KDE 2 that are in Windows XP. Most notably the most commonly used apps bit on the start menu. Maybe that's what you're noticing.

David

Re:Screenshots

[geekoid]

what, you new here?

Re:Screenshots

[onlyjoking]

If KDE has the option of a Windows XP theme in addiiton to its own default this can only aid the cause of transitioning Windows users who want to try Linux. Surely the advantages of open source software are freedom & multiplicity so there's nothing lost and everything to gain from having a 'Doze GUI for potential converts.

It may even give Billy Boy one more thing to worry about.

Re:Screenshots

[rseuhs]

Actually, yes you can... OS X supports this (it can be the default, too). Since there's no multiple-button mouse it's Option-click for the 'other' action (page up/down or scroll to here) but it's simple enough to bind that to the middle mouse button if you wish.

That doesn't cut it, sorry.

'bookmark directories'?

You know, bookmarks are organized in a tree-like structure. In Konqueror I can create a new container for bookmarks (or bookmark directory) without launching a helper app.

Re:Screenshots

[glwtta]

A Modern Clipboard

WTF? Is a "modern" clipboard anything like the Windows one, where you can copy/cut and paste once, and that's it? If that's the modern approach, I think I'll stick with the obsolete ones, where I get a clipboard history and can define actions for specific selections.

Re:Screenshots

[glwtta]

Never make me edit a text file to configure a system setting. The less I have to know about what file to edit, where it is, and what the format is, the better and faster I'd be.

yeah, and a lot of people want precisely the opposite - just tell me where the settings are so I don't have to bother with your silly config applets that implement half the settings and usually just confuse the matter by introducing their own terminology.

All Linux development has to be geared to several groups, on the one side you have Aunt Tilly and on the other the same people who make these systems. And I for one hope they won't start concentrating on Aunt Tilly first. I couldn't give a rat's ass about "widespread desktop adoption," what I care about is me, me, me me!

Re:Screenshots

[glwtta]

I think it's because we like KDE and hate MS's guts. Does that help to explain it?

(besides, I don't think it's the eye candy that people complained about, it was mostly animated doggies)

Re:Screenshots

[Rhinobird]

OK, I'll say it. Ugh! what have they done to my beloved KDE?! Holy shit! It's almost as ugly as Windows XP or MacOS X. *shudder* Come on, can't someone come up with a DECENT theme?

Re:Screenshots

[Captain Large Face]

I agree with most of your points, but believe eye candy, whilst not the most important feature of a GUI (by a long way), will help swing users from a Windows environment to a Linux environment.

Users thinking about switching are (I believe) more likely to switch to a nice-looking KDE desktop than say, a Motif desktop.

A lot of people (especially on /.) have complained about the functionality of MacOS X, but still people are drawn in because of the beauty of Aqua.

Re:Screenshots

[sebol]

why there is no alt key for gimp on that pix?
l10n error?

added keyword: Keynav

Re:Screenshots

[Bungie]

Creative use of the SHAPE-Extension for windows decorations have been around much longer than OS X and Windows XP.

Yes, but that was a Copland feature like 10 years ago. Apple just doesn't ship their OS's with the themes (they did ship with some OS8/OSX-Client(98) betas). The API is still there though, and a product called Kaleidoscope has been around for years making use of it.

You do now that both Microsoft and Apple also have programms that perform very poorly in usability tests? Take a look at the Interface Hall of Shame. There are quite some MS-products in there (and even Apples Quicktime). Sometimes they even make a bad UI for political reasons, which you most probably won't find in open source projects.

Until Helix Gnome and KDE 2, most of the open source apps were canidates for the interface hall of shame. The default X widgets are so clumsy and ugly that any X app would have made it there, no matter how long the programmer spent trying to get a well working interface out of it.

Not only that, but I constantly see open source projects on the Mac and Windows that do not follow either vendor's UI Guidelines. In my opinion, Open Source projects have been the source many of the worst interface designs (Visual Basic apps following right behind).

Re:Screenshots

[Bungie]

Can I jump to a location on a scrollbar with the MMB in any version of Windows or MacOS? No.

If you think that is a great feature you have been using Linux too long. Look down at you keyboard. See the HOME/END/PGUP/PGDN keys there? Those also magically jump to areas within a document.

Can I use up to 16 desktops in any version of Widnows or MacOS (without ugly 3rd party tools)? No.

The real question here is...why would you want to. The desktop was not designed to be a replacement for a menu or your filesystem itself. It is just a central hub to return to and leave thing where you might need to find them quickly. 16 desktops is just another number like Internet Explorer being 10% faster, or Windows 98 being 100% more stable. In fact, using CLASSID's and shell objects, it would entirely be possible to have 16 desktops under Windows, but you would need a reason to do it first.

Can I create bookmark directories in IE without launching a helper-app? No.

Actually, that is a lie. The Favourites folder is a real folder just like in Netscape or your beloved Konquerer. If you are using 9x, go to C:\Windows\Favourites and open it up. You can drag and drop bookmarks and folders in and out of it just like any other folder. The helper app just for people who have the time to compile an entire installation of KDE 3, but can't even open their friggin Windows folder and see what's inside.

The fact is, these are all not useful features. They are just features that people like you can quote as reasons that KDE is superior to Windows/MacOS/OS2/etc.

Desktop icons messed up at startup

[Erik Hensema]

My desktop icons always get messed up on startup. However, that seems to be the only real bug in can find.

It simply rocks.

Re:Desktop icons messed up at startup

[isayalanna]

I notice this bug in the current KDE under Mandrake 8.1. I agree that it is really a minor problem.

Re:Desktop icons messed up at startup

[CynicTheHedgehog]

What I want to know is if they've fixed that bug that randomly drops all your font settings. There is nothing I hate more than opening up KDE and seeing everything in 14pt bold sans-serif.

Re:Desktop icons messed up at startup

[HeUnique]

Yes, everything now is Unicode and uses QT-3.

You have QT-2

kde development.

[7-Vodka]

kde development is very strange :)

They didn't plan on adding any new features, just to convert kde to qt3 and make sure it's compatible with gcc 3.x while still getting it out on time. In the end they not only accomplished this, it seems like there are new packages and many many new features in existing packages which crept in... and now we're hearing it's stable too? geez.

Re:kde development.

[mark_lybarger]

just curious where you had heard that it's compatible with gcc 3.x? from what i read on kde's site here is that you'll want to avoid gcc 3.x and stay with 2.95 for a while.

the fact that they're pretty much on schedule shows good project management.

Re:kde development.

[devphil]

I believe it was some pesky bug in GCC 3.0 that caused KDE grief (well, plus the KDE coders were trying to to an end run around some of the C++ language rules). From what I can see GCC 3.1 is safe to use with KDE 3.0.

Re:kde development.

[bero-rh]

just curious where you had heard that it's compatible with gcc 3.x?

It works perfectly with recent CVS versions of gcc 3.1.
3.0.4 is reported to work as well, but the whole 3.0.x branch of gcc isn't too good.

Re:kde development.

[JamesKPolk]

You don't know what you're talking about, do you?

The *first step* was to port to Qt 3, *then* the new features began. This was said all along. It'd be idiotic not to add features during a rare decision to break binary compatibility.

KDE also validated its C++ so that gcc 3 will work. However, gcc 3.0.x has bugs that sometimes cause parts of KDE (especially aRts) to fail to compile correctly. KDE can't fix that.

Re:This is a great step forward for the OSS interf

[Anonymous Coward]

Give latest 2.4 kernel with preempt a try
and KDE3.0 with all the optimisations on
and it really does give XP a run for its
money! :)

Alex

p.s: why is this -1? Its far from a troll!

Re:Responsive Enough?

[Leimy]

I found Konqueror works much snapier and the improved KHTML is way faster than the one from KDE 2.2.2. [KHTML is the renderer for konqueror web content].

The whole system does seem to run more cleanly and smooth. And that's just from a CVS built over two weeks ago. I imagine what is there currently is much better and is why I still have my home PC building it right this moment.

Screenshots?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we have some screenshots? Every version of KDE i've ever seen has been, well, sort of inherently ugly-- the worst abuses of the motif, windows, and aqua mindsets combined. You can skin over the windows-ness, of course, and skin the puke-grey color scheme out of the icons, but that doesn't change that there seemed to just be very little engineering of details in KDE, and little things-- the relative placement of buttons, layout, fitt's law considerations, stuff you can't skin over-- seemed to be more or less unimportant to them. And when you're designing a gui, almost all of what makes the difference between being pleasant to use and feeling like you're fighting with the computer to get anything done comes in tiny, tiny details..

I mean, well, ok-- that's a decent bit unecessarily harsh. They did a wholly acceptable job, a better job than i could have done, and the thing was refreshingly usable. I didn't want to use it, though, and i didn't. It just for one reason or another felt more natural and nimble to use bash than kde-- which is saying a LOT, since i am a native mac user and one of the more rabid proponents of the spacial file manangement metaphor you're going to find. But kde just felt so *clumsy*...

Then again, i haven't seriously used KDE since 1, though my brief experience with KDE2 failed to impress me. So, have things gotten better? Can anyone convince me that KDE has learned from mistakes and improved seriously?

Can i have some screenshots? I couldn't find any of version 3 on kde.org.

--super ugly ultraman

Re:Screenshots?

[thesolo]

Can i have some screenshots? I couldn't find any of version 3 on kde.org.

Right Here. Of course, it's very slow loading now, /. effect in full swing!

Re:Screenshots?

[IamTheRealMike]

You can find some screenshots on their site, perhaps if you'd looked you might have found them? They have been there a long time.

Every version of KDE i've ever seen has been, well, sort of inherently ugly-- the worst abuses of the motif, windows, and aqua mindsets combined.

You telling me that this is ugly? Or this?

that doesn't change that there seemed to just be very little engineering of details in KDE, and little things-- the relative placement of buttons, layout, fitt's law considerations, stuff you can't skin over

Everyone always seems to whine about fitts law, like knowing what it is automagically makes them a GUI design guru. To be honest, I prefer having smaller buttons/icons and being able to fit more on, and I think you'll find most other people do too - which is why even on OS X, that bastion of largeness, users often make the default dock icon size smaller, and the finder uses 16x16 icons in its default view.

Re:Screenshots?

[Rob Kaper]

Icon sizes are completely configurable in KDE. The second screenshot you mentioned has the panel and taskbar hidden.

In fact, you can easily put both your window list and application menu as left/middle/right mouse button on the desktop and run without a panel alltogether and on top of that use any window manager instead of kwin and just use those parts of the desktop you like.

Re:Screenshots?

[TandyMasterControl]

maybe not ugly but definitely amateurish in places. Fortunately for me, I don't know what Fitt's law is, so we needn't argue about whether or not it makes me a GUI guru.
My genes make me a GUI guru. ;-)

Now hear my whine(s).
If I had to use Keramik it would drive me crazy with its hyped contrasts. (I haven't used the original OSX aqua for more than a couple of minutes so I couldn't say whether it was just as bad.)

That second screenshot is right down there knocking on the door of ugly. The way the darker blue is used inside of the lighter frame is just wrong. Maybe if I could control the ratio of one value to the other I could live with a monochromatic scheme inverted like that, but the way they did it and those title bars? Unh-uh.

In all the screenshots of Liquid that I have seen , the nice color gradients could not hide that perennial KDE theme atrocity: discrete little button surrounds for every icon in the toolbar, with all the buttons jammed hard together to the left.
Ugh. This one is the vomit-maker. Thankfully the button boxes aren't part of the default KDE theme, but they seem hard to avoid when you leave the default KDE theme. Half of the themes have this eyesore of a billion little outlined buttons in the toolbar.
Many a Gnome theme and app has the same problem. Look at Bluefish using something like a GTK aqua theme. Incompre-fucking-hensible.
The law this violates is called Tandy's Paradox: the human eye/brain apparatus follows lines unconsciouly -autonomically. Therefore, the more you as a GUI designer try to set off adjacent things with little bounding lines , and especially lines that change direction making angles and closed figures, the more busy and less clear things actually become, unless: a) The closed figures are few in number and large; or b) the closed figures are set off with a grid of spaces that give a pleasing interval of figure to ground allowing the eye to stop, offsetting the busyness (but wasting screen real estate in the process and requiring more code).
Legibility is not a matter of taste.
Try to use as few lines and separate 3d modelled surfaces as humanly possible in your GUI, then eliminate 50% of those remaining. Now you're right.
Well I think that's enough for today.

Re:Screenshots?

[GooberToo]

Why is this a troll?

He seems to be asking if KDE is still the same old KDE with new eye candy or have things really gotten better?

...wish people would learn what a troll is...

What makes this a major point release?

[zapfie]

The jump from KDE 1.0 to 2.0 was a fairly major one. This release feels like it should maybe be KDE 2.5 or something- I don't see much in the way of fundamental architecture changes or major enhancements. This is not to slight the work of the KDE team in any way, I am a huge fan and current user of KDE. I just don't understand why this is a point release.

Re:What makes this a major point release?

[NewbieSpaz]

I believe it is because they are switching to qt3.

Re:What makes this a major point release?

[gregstoll]

I believe I read somewhere that it's a major release because it breaks
binary compatibility with the 2.x series...but I'm not sure.

Re:What makes this a major point release?

[GeekBoy]

Because it breaks binary compatability in the move from qt2 to qt3. In addition qt3 brings some enhancements such as data aware widgets, etc.

what has changed ?

[bicatu]

I could not find a chanlog/news anywhere

Re:what has changed ?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is onyl a release candidate, final release will have a full announcement.
But see the beta announcements and http://developer.kde.org/development-versions/kde- 3.0-features.html.

Re:what has changed ?

[Wickie]

Check out the KDE 3.0 Planned Features page.

A praise and an alternative

[kybernator]

Congratulations to the KDE-team!
I have sometimes installed a computer for not so computer literate people, (my wife, my then 4-year-old daughter, several elderly people), and sometimes, if they explicitly wished so, they had to pay for a windows license, more often they got KDE and StarOffice 5.2.
The KDE users learned at least as much as fast, so much for the desktop-readyness of linux.
(What I have seen from Gnome is certainly not worse in UI, so please use another post as a starter for the obligatory flame war:))
What I like to install if the user's machine has less horsepower, is xfce and lyx - also a fine combination with a useful interpretation of the desktop-metaphor in the wm, and imho easier to adapt to for users with a little ms-windows-background than the more nextish wms like blackbox etc.

Working mirrors

[Rentar]

I found it funny that you can watch the mirrors work. I found an directory (http://download.uk.kde.org/pub/kde/unstable/kde-3 .0rc3/SuSE/7.1-i386+kde/) that was half-full (4 packages), which I found somewhat interesting. I reloaded and it had 5 packages. You could just watch the packages grow ... (and not slow as well, it seems the mirrors have some massive bandwidth to the central site).

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Kfm had integrated webbrowsing and file management long before IE did.
So it's IE ripping of KDE, if anything.

Screenshots

[Captain Large Face]

Screenshots are available for KDE 3.0 here.

These shots go to show that Unix and Linux systems are more than capable of competing with the eye candy UIs of Windows XP and MacOS X.

Load-balancing

[sc0rpi0n]

How about a load-balancing dot.kde.org mirror system? ;)

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[twocents]

Hmmm...I think your suggestion to use IceWM makes the best point of all; pick the window manager of choice, or avoid the GUI completely.

Despite KDE's looks, Linux users still can choose to use something else. I cannot think of a bigger difference.

Confusing version names

[bertilow]

I found an directory (http://download.uk.kde.org/pub/kde/unstable/kde-3 . 0rc3/SuSE/7.1-i386+kde/)

And I found this directory:

<http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/pub/kde/unstable/kde-3. 0rc3/RedHat/i386/>

And it's full of files dated today and yesterday.

But according to the release notes the new stuff should be in "/pub/kde/unstable/kde-3.0-beta2/".

Now, is "3.0.rc3" ("release candidate 3) older or newer than "3.0.beta2"?

There isn't supposed to be any RedHat RPMs for tthis new stuff, so these RedHat RPMs I found must be something older. But they were created today?

???

"Prepare to fall in love"?

[Wakko Warner]

How does one do that? Stop off at 7-11 after work for a box of Trojans and some Astroglide before visiting kde.org?

- A.P.

Re:"Prepare to fall in love"?

[red_dragon]

I guess you'll also need to write a driver for one of these to get the full KDE luvvin' effect.

Re:"prepare to fall in love"?

[JohnG]

How gay is that?? I knew this guy once, he just finished banging his girlfriend and he gets up to play with his computer. What a mental defective!

You're implying the guy should stick around and cuddle, and you are calling Taco gay?!

Disclaimer to all potential mates, that was a joke. I have nothing against cuddling. :)

what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[WildBeast]

I have RedHat 7.2 w/GNOME on my laptop and Mandrake 8.2 w/KDE on my desktop. Weird enough, a few days ago my GNOME desktop freezes and I couldn't do the CTRL-ALT-BCKSPACE , nothing worked. Then yesterday, my KDE freezes and I couldn't do anything either. I had to reboot.

I remember the days when they weren't so damn bloated and when Linux meant "fast/light/stable". Nowadays with recent distros, it takes over 40 seconds to boot into Linux. Linux is becoming more and more like Windows.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[jilles]

Nothing in the linux architecture prevents the problems that have plagued windows. So it is not surprising that when linux desktops were much less feature rich they were generally more faster and bugfree. With less LOC and a similar amount of defects/KLOC you get less bugs, it has nothing to do with code quality.

With both KDE and Gnome growing in size there are more bugs to squash, more design issues to work out. Linux does not have a 16 bit dos legacy so it does not have to face BSOD's however also the more UNIX like kernel design gives you some stability.

However, memory bloat, usability bugs and stupid design are not unique to the win32 environment and are generally very portable. It is very easy to make the same mistakes when programming a KDE application as it is to do when programming an win32 application.

For the past few years, a fully featured linux desktop (i.e. not twm or some other lightweight wm) has been typically slower than a fully featured win32 desktop on my machine. Windows XP typically boots faster than it takes me to get a KDE 2.x desktop up an running from pressing the power button.

I've had several versions of Mandrake on my machine over the past few years. I found them to be buggy and unreliable (reminding me of the days I ran win95). I've experienced segfaults of the installer, corrupted rpm databases (mostly because of rpm drake crashing) and other very significant show stopper bugs on what Mandrake considered release worhty. In case you are wondering, I have an off the shelf Dell machine. Life isn't exactly wonderfull on win32 but a win2k machine feels a lot more mature and stable than a Mandrake machine.

If I want a stable linux environment I generally do not install Mandrake but Debian. However "user friendly" is not a well understood concept in the Debian world and nothing is straightforward in Debian (though given enough time you can figure it out). However, I'm comfortable with a commandline and know how to work my way through the piles of howto's, newsgroup messages and such to get a working KDE 2.2.2 installation running ontop of XFree 4.2, with sound support and a working DSL connection (none of which is easy if you start out with a potato cd and an obscure isa network card). I even enjoy doing so but I wouldn't recommend Mandrake or Debian to windows users. Well I actually did recommend Mandrake to a windows user a few months back and of course the installer blew up in his face (segfaulting halfway). He gave up on it after that.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[Paracelcus]

If your running RedHat 7.2, set it to start in run level 3 and instead of startx do "xinit /usr/bin/wmaker" (withuot quotes and your snappy performance will be restored.

KDE is bloated and to a lesser extent so is gnome.

And oh yes, all my comments are IMHO.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[plastercast]

What you are describing is not a gnome or kde issue, but a X one, and most likely one stemming from your video card. I would venture to say you are running an nVidia card with their drivers. If this is the case, switching back to the "nv" ones will fix your stability issue, and unless you are heavy into 3d apps, not effect your speed.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[iabervon]

I'm using RedHat 6.2 w/fvwm2 on my work machine and a slackware-ish homebrew w/fvwm2 on my home machine. The Linux GUIs we used to have we still have. It's just that people have the choice of using more bloated things. The beauty of using open source software is that you don't have to switch to the latest UI every couple of years. If you miss the old days, you can go back. You'll probably actually get a lot more done, too.

I'm running 2.4.18 and 4.0.(3?) on my home machine, and fvwm has never run nearly as well. The only time it's stopped responding, I needed to wiggle the keyboard connector.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[avdi]

Nothing in the linux architecture prevents the problems that have plagued windows

Not true. In windows, the GUI code is intimately linked to the kernel, and cannot be separated out. In GNU/Linux, the two are completely divorced. To the kernel, X-Windows is merely another set of user-mode client processes - no more capable of bringing down the kernel than "grep" or Emacs. Theoretically, at least. In practice I have occasional X crashes that leave the system unusable - but these are most likely the fault of buggy video drivers f&*$ing with the hardware, not a kernel crash. As far as I can tell, even when this happens the kernel and other services are still ticking along happily - it's just unable to communicate with me.

True, the end result is the same (an unusable computer requiring a hard-reset) - but I know that if I ran a XFree86-free webserver on Linux I wouldn't even have to worry about the possibility of a GUI crash clobbering the system. The same cannot be said of NT/Win2000.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[Junta]

I dunno, sometimes modern environments tend to push the X system a bit harder somehow. In any case, I occasionally get a similar problem out of my Voodoo3 configuration under 4.2.0. Fortunately, I have a network so I can telnet in and kill -9 the X server. I don't remember all these problems back in the 3.3.6 days, and I would go back, but XVideo is too cool :) I really have to wonder if X 4.2.0 in general still isn't true "production quality"....

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[digidave]

Stop talking out of your ass. Windows' GUI is nothing more than explorer.exe, which also functions as its file manager. Very few GUI functions are handled by a lower part of the OS (ctrl-alt-delete dialog is, alt-tab dialog is).

Try going into the registry and setting the Shell key to "command.com"(9x/Me) or "cmd.exe"(NT/2K/XP) and you'll have a fast command prompt that can run Win32 windowed apps.

Check out litestep.com sometime.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[TheAwfulTruth]

"Not true. In windows, the GUI code is intimately linked to the kernel, and cannot be separated out."

Why is there not a -1 anti-informative mod? This statement is 100% wrong. The windows desktop is a user level application that can be stopped and restarted at will with no interruption to the kernel or kernel services in any way. In fact a hell of a lot of "crashed" windows can be recovered by bringing up the task manager and starting a new process called "explorer.exe", rather than blindly hitting the reset button like a monkey.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[jilles]

Small correction, in windows the low level video driver runs in kernel mode (mostly for performance reasons). The rest lives in user land just as in UNIX. When under unix your xserver barfs you lose your data just like when the similar thing happens in windows. In windows you reboot, the user friendly but slow and annoying way of reinitializing properly, in linux you are left to fix things manually (and usually you can).

As someone else pointed out, most of the GUI in window is explorer.exe. You can kill it and it will just relaunch itself. Usually it will forget about any taskbar icons (though the associated processes still run). Luckily it crashes very rarely these days and if it does a simple logout, login fixes it properly (similar to restarting X). All the cases I had to reboot my XP machine were related to driver issues. Both my video card and audiocard come from vendors that went bankrupt: 3dfx and aureal. Consequently the XP drivers are a bit flaky you can compare that to running unsupported x drivers and kernel modules on linux.

If under linux your X driver fucks up the screen, just shutting it down may not always fix it either since the hardware only resets properly at boot time. If that happens (and I've seen it happen under linux), you are left no choice but to reboot. What good is it if you can still telnet to the box if you were busy playing unreal?. Poor hardware support is much more of an issue under linux than it is under windows.

Either way whether X crashes (and it does) or explorer.exe crashes it is usually the end of all your running apps. You may lose unsaved data and you'll need to restart the apps. It's a pain either way and in my experience both systems are plagued by it. If I run nothing but dos boxes and wordpad in XP I can probably keep it running for months or even years but that's not why I have a PC. I like to push the drivers to the limit by running 3D games and other potentially not so stable stuff. I'm pretty sure I'll experience the occasional X crash and hw lockups under linux too given the same usage pattern.

Finally I doubt the GUI is the main issue bothering windows based servers. Probably the issue is more related to memory leaks and such in IIS. A stripped linux distro with apache is notoriously stable, nobody is denying that. But that's because apache is a good product and IIS is not. Anyway we're comparing apples and oranges now since we were discussing the minor annoyance of the desktop environment crashing which is a reality users have to live with on both linux and windows.

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[atomic brainslide]

Small correction, in windows the low level video driver runs in kernel mode (mostly for performance reasons). The rest lives in user land just as in UNIX. When under unix your xserver barfs you lose your data just like when the similar thing happens in windows. In windows you reboot, the user friendly but slow and annoying way of reinitializing properly, in linux you are left to fix things manually (and usually you can).

i believe you are incorrect. linux has low level video drivers in the kernel also - does DRI ring a bell?

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[plastercast]

I going to have to call you on this, you are lying. Doing what you describe will leave your graphics card stuck looking for what to display from the now non-existant X-server. In short, it leaves the display "grocked".

And yes, 4.2 is high quality, just dont use those nVidia drivers (although if you are not using the nvidia driver, then it could be something else. Perhaps overheating. Had that problem afew times.)

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[Junta]

I am lying huh? Try it yourself, kill -9 the X server. It will *not* grock the display, unless your video card is *really* whack. I had a friend who had that issue.

Of course nVidia doesn't work well for me, and my voodoo3 is immediately good to go after I kill off the funked up X server. Face it, XFree 4.2.0 isn't the perfect display system you believe it is, it can have bugs, just like anything else. It is attitudes like yours that are very dangerous for people to have, believing your favorite open source programs are bullet proof and would believe a user is lying before you would believe a bug exists in a program is just ludicrous..

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[plastercast]

Of course nVidia doesn't work well for me, and my voodoo3 is immediately good to go after I kill off the funked up X server.

Are you agreeing with me that the source of the problem is with the nVidia drivers and not X? It appears so, makeing what you say afterwards sound silly. Also, of course X has bugs, but the server as a whole should be rock solid. That is why I am convinced that your problem is hardware. Chill out!

Re:what happened to our Linux GUI's?

[Junta]

I was meaning to say that of course nVidia isn't an issue for me, because I'm not even running nVidia hardware. Anyway, I still ike the system, but still think the XFree provided drivers are far from perfect in the "stable" release. The core maybe very good, but they still have a number of issues to work out. I remember every release from 4.0 to 4.1.0 that was considered "stable" I could write an application to crash any tdfx X server, by trying to open up a UYUV or YUY2 colorspace.... This kind of bug was resolved many many many months before they release 4.2.0. They really need to make more frequenct bugfix releases..

Re:Reason why KDE isn't more widely accepted

[eniacpx]

I agree with you. I use blackbox. Its simple, it runs FAST, and it has everything I need.

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[Anonymous Coward]

From my experience the best way to convert a windows user is to provide them with something they are comfortable with. Not a totally new system to learn.

Convert them with a look-a-like. They will eventually realize the true power of the Linux desktop!

Re:kde development. compat with gcc3

[iamsure]

In a CVS entry, they tagged it with "gcc3 compat fixes", followed by a mailing list posting discussing that it was now gcc3 compat.

I dont know whether rc3 has that cvs patch in, but I would definitely assume so.

Bloat.....

[isotope23]

IMO the need to get some really nutty types
to go back and start writing the code in
assembly........

Re:Bloat.....

[oojah]

I tried to break Shannon's Law, but it didn't make a bit of difference......

Haha, very good :)

two qusetions...

[cies]

two qusetions...

1. Does anyone know about themes that make KDE and GTK (GNOME) look exactly like each other?

2. Will brahms (a OSS Cubase clone) be in KDE3?

thanks,
Cies.

Re:two qusetions...

[JamesKPolk]

KDE 3.0 will not include Brahms.

Perhaps the Brahms developers should ask for the kmusic package to be added to the released packages for KDE 3.1. Brahms is in cvs, in kmusic. kmusic just needs to be released.

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[DarkProphet]

You know, I thought exactly the opposite thing when I installed WinXP. I thought its default look/feel/whatever was extremely reminiscent of a certain few Linux (and other UNIX bretheren) Desktop Environments.

Now, regardless of who copied who, what difference does it make anyway? I _like_ the way KDE 2.2.2 looks and feels. Similarly, I like WinXP way more than its predecessors, much for the same reason. Well, that and XP doesn't crash quite so much.

As for IceWM, I've never much cared for it.

Lets not forget how many times MS has been caught ripping off other folks' ideas. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. If someone did come up with a totally different GUI style, the likelihood that its going to be accepted and used by everyone is pretty small. People don't like fooling around with stuff they are unfamiliar with when they are trying to get stuff done. Thats why I use WinXP and KDE 2.2.2. I am comfortable with the UI, and I can focus on getting things done, instead of fucking around for hours on end trying to figure out how to do x. Its for that reason that I've never really cared for Enlightenment, IceWM, or Gnome. (I only include Gnome here because its had a nasty history of throwing SegFaults for no apparent reason).

Back for a moment to how KDE3 seems such a blatant ripoff of 'Doze. Have you installed KDE3 and played around with it? Neither have I. It would make sense that KDE would most resemble Windows simply because it uses QT, which is also compatible with windows. Furthermore, if it is the aim for Linux to provide viable competition in the Desktop market, there needs to be a desktop environment that is just as pretty as windows, but is more stable. Damn, isn't that what KDE is? I would think that all Linux fans would appreciate something that contributes to the cause (dominance of Open Source/Free Software/etc), even if is not exactly their cup of tea.

What exactly is a legitimate Linux user, pray tell?

If the next version of KDE was to be name KDE XP, it'd probably be a pretty smart marketing strategy, assuming there are no legality issues with using the letters X and P consecutively.

removable devices interface improved ?

[InodoroPereyra]

I love KDE. I just love it. There are always things to improve though. The one that strikes me most is ease of use of removable devices. I personally never cared about it because I just mount/umount whatever I need. But when someone who DOESN'T care about computers just wants to copy a file to a floppy and you have to explain what mounting/unmounting is, and how to look into /dev/floppy ... it is too much.

AFAIK in KDE 2.2 you cannot simply drag and drop to the "floppy device" icon in the desktop. Also, a little icon on the side-bar in Konqueror for each removable device would help. A non-geek user should see this little floppy in conqueror and drag a file from the fs to the little floppy and get the job done.

This is one of the little things where M$ is still easier to use. You want to copy a file to a floppy, you insert the stupid floppy and drag and drop. I know you can set up autofs and all, but this would be one of the basic things a desktop should handle seamlessly.

Does anyone know if these things are improved in KDE 3 ?

Thanks so much to the KDE team for all their work. Cheers !
-- Don Inodoro

Re:removable devices interface improved ?

[rossz]

At least improve the handling of the CD drive. The system is perfectly capable of detecting when a CD has been inserted. Mount it for me damn it! And when I press the eject button, it can umount automatically. Why am I having to go through the trouble of doing this manually?

Re:removable devices interface improved ?

[dfaure]

> AFAIK in KDE 2.2 you cannot simply drag and drop to the "floppy device" icon in the desktop.

Just implemented this yesterday... quite a concidence ;)
konq_operations.diff

Apply this patch to the KDE 3 sources (current CVS, or 3.0-final
when it's out). It's a tiny bit late for inclusion in 3.0, given the size of the patch (which mainly moves code around though).
Feel free to test and report problems to me :)

Re:removable devices interface improved ?

[boarderboy]

I didn't know that real developers actually visited this site anymore. If you have the time you should check out kuro5hin.org

Re:removable devices interface improved ?

[Anthony Boyd]

AFAIK in KDE 2.2 you cannot simply drag and drop to the "floppy device" icon in the desktop.

Just implemented this yesterday...

That's damn cool to have a developer pop in and say "yeah, we just added that." If I had a mod point, I'd be marking dfaure's post as "underrated" right now.

Mirror of the dot.kde.org page

[sc0rpi0n]

Mirror of the dot.kde.org page

KDE Network

[nick255]

Is it just me, or is all the kdenetwork stuff missing from the distribution builds? The RedHat RPMs directory doesn't seem to include KMail.

Re:KDE Network

[JamesKPolk]

In case you weren't aware: http://www.kde.org/packagepolicy.html

Re:Reason why KDE isn't more widely accepted

[SPaReK]

I'll have to agree as well. I use Icewm. Its small and fast, especially since my Linux box is a P166. I use the Infadel theme. Icewm runs pretty smooth on that computer.

P.S. Icewm also supports hot-keys. Gotta have hot-keys.

This might be the straw...

[Captain Smooth]

that breaks the camels back for me. Though I am a devoted GNOME user, I use a P2 with 64 MB of ram, and you can imagine the sloth of Nautilus on that kind of machine. I LOVE Konquerer though, and have been looking for a good opportunity to switch to KDE. Pending on finding out more about 3.0's performance on lower end machines, I think I may convert.

P.S. Has anyone tried KDE 3 on a PC thats ~350 MHz?

Re:This might be the straw...

[npietraniec]

Well, I can tell you I've been running various linux distros on my 366 PII Dell Latitude with 128 megs of RAM and they run great. I can't see KDE3 being any different.

Re:This might be the straw...

[Vampyr]

I've been running it in parallel on a PIII 700 w/224 and a PII 400 w/64 for several months now.

KDE 3 is substantially faster on the slower machine than KDE 2. There's still a wait for windows to open, but it's noticeably reduced from KDE 2.

I rarely close open windows anyway, and in day to day use, there's little difference to tell between the two machines.

Re:This might be the straw...

[Anonymous Coward]

I use a K6II-450. X, KDE3, kernel 2.4.18 w/preempt compiled from source, and it is smokin fast, much faster than kde2. RAM is cheap, if you use KDE3 you will likely want to add a bit more RAM.

Re:This might be the straw...

[rseuhs]

It's all about RAM, if you've got enough of it (at least 128MB, better 256MB) it should be OK.

Re:This might be the straw...

[JamesKPolk]

KDE 3 is be faster than KDE 2. Qt has been optimized, KDE has been optimized. Memory use has ben reduced where possible, bottlenecks have been traced and improved. And of course you should compile correctly:

For Qt, get the objprelink patch if necessary, edit mkspecs/(your platform)/qmake.conf to change the line QMAKE_CFLAGS_RELEASE.

For KDE, configure correctly:

CXX="g++ -fstrict-aliasing -mpentiumpro -O3 -malign-functions=4" CC="gcc -fstrict-aliasing -mpentiumpro -O3 -malign-functions=4" configure --disable-debug --enable-final --enable-fast-malloc=full --enable-objprelink

(remove --enable-objprelink if you're using the latest GNU binutils)

hmm...

[cdemon6]

has anybody got debian packages of this release? i never saw any debs flying around ("yeah, of course there will be some - later"), so if anybody knows of some unofficial apt sources, please tell me :)

Re:hmm...

[Pierre]

does debian have qt3?

Re:hmm...

[cdemon6]

yes.

Re:Ripoff!

[Ranger Rick]

It's a *theme*. It was meant to look like windows... keramik's not the default KDE theme.

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[magi]

If the next version of KDE was to be name KDE XP, it'd probably be a pretty smart marketing strategy, assuming there are no legality issues with using the letters X and P consecutively.

No, the JesusWindows is bad enough, we don't want a JesusKDE. (You know, XP...XPISTOS...Greek, XP is a very much used symbol in such iconography.)

When can we expect GCC 3.1?

[10Ghz]

And, will it have the fixed linker? That would give KDE's performance a nice boost

Re:Empty space

[NaCh0]

Man, what do you do with all that empty space and how's your vision after staring at so small icons and text for hours on end?

View data. I'm a sysadmin and programmer. Problems become easier to solve when I can get more data in front of my face. The text doesn't seem small. Its just like reading a book or newspaper.

Re:Reason why KDE isn't more widely accepted

[NaCh0]

I really don't think you are within the intended audience of KDE.

I'm cool with that. I just hope that everyone understands this. There will always be the need for multiple desktops based upon the needs of the user.

Re:*snort*

[10Ghz]

"Not but that KDE is quality software.. But a simple clone of Microsoft's desktop isn't going to be freeing me anytime soon.

It's more like indentured service. It's not quite slavery, but it sure as hell isn't freedom."

Why? Why must UI looks 100% different from Windows UI? Are there any usability-reasons or is it just the "It reminds me of MS, it must be EEEEEVIL!"-mindset?

How exactly does KDE look like MS? Gnome looks like MS too, they all that "start-button" or equivalent. They all have a taskbar. Having some similarities with Windows-UI is NOT automatically a bad thing (despite the fact that many people seem to think so)

Why do you think that KDE doesn't give you "freedom"? I mean, it's free software, it's licensed under the GPL. Just because you think that it looks like Windows-UI (There might be some similarities, but honestly, how many different ways are there to design a windowed UI??? They ALL share some basic characteristics! Building a UI with sole goal of looking as different as possible when compared to Win-UI is, well, retarded) does not make it "un-free" or anything.

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[Rob Kaper]

If the next version of KDE was to be name KDE XP, it'd probably be a pretty smart marketing strategy, assuming there are no legality issues with using the letters X and P consecutively.

As KDE developer I can promise you there will be a 3.0.1 bugfix release first, then a 3.1 with new features, etcetera. Just because we do indeed implement good stuff as seen in other OSes (yes, including but definitely not limited to Windows) doesn't mean KDE is just a copycat.

Magnetic window borders, old classics such as virtual desktops and focus follows mouse.. KDE has it all. Configure it for ten minutes and you've got the exact Windows clone. Or, you've got something completely different. Umpteen window decorations, style, icon themes, colour schemes and a powerful control center give you choice in the look and feel of KDE. So make it look like whatever you want, there is not just one look and feel.

I wanna see kernel32.c...

[Wee]

Linux is becoming more and more like Windows.

Really, it is? I've looked all over my wife's XP machine, and I can't find sources to anything...

-B

Re:I wanna see kernel32.c...

[Wee]

He was talking *behavior*. you are talking *contents*.

And I would tell you that one begets the other.

When arguing, try to stay on the same subject.

When commenting, try to think three dimensionally.

-B

Re:Ripoff!

[Bob The Cowboy]

*sigh* Troll, but I'll bite just in case someone comes along thinking he's +1, Insightful

your problem is this:

When is Linux going to stop aiming to be JUST LIKE WINDOWS! and do something "innovative" in the GUI area?

Oh, that's right. THEY WON'T, simply because all those open source programmers are PROGRAMMERS and know nothing about UI design!

Ok.... first, you apparently don't understand that Linux isn't aiming to be anything like windows... my command prompt looks nothing like the latest windows versions I've seen

second, KDE/Gnome, which might be more what you're screaming about, have every right to do what they want as well, and I find them far more advanced that windows at least, and even OSX in some places

but really, your gripe is with that theme's maker... so you're really complaining that there's 1 dude out there who looked and Luna and Aqua and said "Hmmmm. Don't wanna run windows or OSX, but I'd like my desktop to look like that."

So really, right there, you've just made KDE's point for them... or are customizeable interfaces not an advance?

So chill, and let other people have their own tastes.

Bill

Re:Ripoff!

[npietraniec]

Embrace and extend... Much like a few other companies I know of. If you want to use a window manager that doesn't look similar to windows, I know of a few, and they *all* are faster.

However... I don't think I could live without windows that snap to edges, tabs, and an "always on top" clip... You use Linux for a while and then switch to windows, the UI feels clunky. What about being able to change your window decoration and virtual desktops? There's plenty of places where KDE excels and Windows falls flat on it's face.

Troll.

Re:unix? lol

[HeUnique]

Actually, if you look at the mailing lists - you'll find people from IBM (who compile KDE on AIX), SGI (Irix), FreeBSD, HP-UX, Sun (Solaris), and even Mac OS X!

The KDE Development team doesn't have the machines to try the code on other things then Linux, but non-the-less - most of the time people manage to compile KDE from sources with 90% of success with few small problems that are being discussed and fixed within short time.

Re:Windows people are clueless

[rseuhs]

- KDE had a themeable desktop long before Windows.

- Windows needed a long time to offer a measly 4 desktops (compared to up to 16 in KDE)

- Unix-style cut&paste is much more efficient and unmatched by Apple-style cut&paste used in Windows

- Konqueror windows reappear after logging out and in again. Of course on the right desktop and with the right widow-geometry. No more temporary bookmarks!

- Konqueror has much better bookmark-handling than any other browser

There is more innovation and new ideas in one year of KDE-development than in the whole Windows-series.

It is aptgetable already

[rsd]

For those of you already running Conectiva Linux, it is aptgetable already.

If you run the CL snapshot version just:

# apt-get update
# apt-get dist-upgrade

If you just want to get the kde stuff:
Add this to your /etc/apt/sources.list file:

rpm ftp://ftp.nl.linux.org/pub conectiva/snapshot/conectiva main kde

and then run:
# apt-get update
# apt-get install task-kde

If you want to fully upgrade to the snapshot version:
add this line instead:

rpm ftp://ftp.nl.linux.org/pub conectiva/snapshot/conectiva main extra orphan gnome experimental games kde

and then:
# apt-get update
# apt-get dist-upgrade

Enjoy!

Re:It is aptgetable already

[sewagemaster]

anyone know of any debs for debian?

Re:Reason why KDE isn't more widely accepted

[madenosine]

I use Afterstep but I still use apps like Konqueror, so I'm as happy as any KDE user when a there is a new release.

Re:kde development. compat with gcc3

[mark_lybarger]

until it's in the released documentation, i'm thinking there _could_ be problems (not there there still might not be after that). i don't think that reading in a cvs entry(s) "gcc3 compat fixes" really says that it's been tested and works with that compiler.

if they say on the mailing list that it's gcc3 compat, why don't the put it in the docs somewhere? as a comparison, some people have gotten the ati radeon 8500 cards to work using the gatos drivers, but... the driver authors aren't labeling it as supported. there's been changes in the code to accomadate the card, but it's not ready for mainstream.

Re:Ripoff!

[HeUnique]

So it's a ripoff (it's not - it got MORE features then Windows - remind me how you can directly send an output of a file directly to Mail? or how about directly printing to a PDF without spending money on an Adobe product?)..

The point is to MAKE it easier for end user to print! no matter what printer server do you use - CUPS, LPR, LPRng, Sun's printing stuff - you name it - this printing dialog gives you all the options that you're getting from your print server...

You don't like the GUI? fine - open the source - there is a .ui file - feel free to whip QT Designer and change it to your heart content..

No one is forcing anyone to uses it - it's just to make people who came from Windows world easier then what there is today on Linux/Unix. Thats it..

Re:Ripoff!

[rseuhs]

Maybe you should not judge anything based on screenshots.

Especially ripoff claims are somewhat stupid based on a screenshot - maybe, just maybe this KDE was configured to look similiar to Windows?

Never thought about that, right?

Re:Ripoff!

[TheAwfulTruth]

Try looking at Stardoc. Complete shell replacement for windows. 100% customization, beyond the level of anything I've seen for Linux. Far more "advanced" and "innovative" than KDE.

He's right. KDE is just a plain windows rip-off. Not that that's a bad thing. But anyone with eyes can see that it is... Just admit it. It's not that hard.

They fixed it! Hooray!

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

The "focus problem" that I've been whining piteously about for so long has been fixed, so I can now actually post to Slashdot with Konqueror in KDE3...

KDE3 at this point seems to be in really good shape. There are only 1.5 problems left that I can even think of at the moment...(maybe less...)

The ".5" is the clipboard and cutting-and-pasting. Right now, it seems a bit inconsistent in some spots (especially cutting-and-pasting from within kmail [i.e. message source or headers when reporting spam]), which is annoying, but not fatal.

The other problem isn't KDE's fault - I just can't get Quanta to start under KDE3 is all (is Quanta dead? Development on it seems to have sputtered to a stop at the moment [though about once a week CVS shows a change to a configuration file or something of the sort]...)

Otherwise, I consider myself "officially" using KDE3 full-time now. I'm quite pleased with it. Konqueror in particular seems to have gotten significantly better (and I think it was pretty good before) at dealing with the more esoteric web-sites that used to give it problems (javascript/ecmascript support is greatly improved...)

Making up our minds about Microsoft.

[hateddamntruth]

Why is it that when Windows XP came out, all we heard from /.ers is: "Ugh, it's so candy-coated I can't stand it."
But when a KDE theme does it 6 months later it's: "Oooh pretty. It is going to be a bright, bright future."
I'm no Microsoft apologist, but come on people, make up your minds.

We just hate Micro$oft, that's all.

They do frequently make some good products (otherwise there would be no argument whatsoever) but we hate them so much (for good reason, mind you - their selfish, monopolistic, deceive everybody, rule-the-world, screw-the-competition, screw-the-customer mentality) that it blinds us to whatever little good that might sometimes come out of Redmond.

Re:Windows people are clueless

[MrBoring]

* Why do we care so much about themes over everything else?
* How many desktops do you need? Doesn't it get confusing after 4?
* How can Unix-style cut&paste be more efficient when it works so clumsely? I couldn't tell you how to do it by keyboard (consistent across apps), and couldn't find instructions on it either.
* Explorer windows can also reappear after logging out.
* Why does Konqueror have better bookmarking?
* How can you claim KDE to be more innovative when most features were copied from MS? Unless you mean they copied them fast.

KDE3 vs. Gnome2

[Junta]

I've been playing with both. I can certainly say both offer great speedups over their current stable versions. However, I must say that KDE3 feels a lot closer to release quality than Gnome2, even though Gnome2 supposedly has a sooner release date...

Everything in KDE (at lleast as of RC2) seems to work, I haven't seen any crashes. All the utilities and such seem pretty complete.

Gnome2, as of a few days ago, still seemed broken in so many ways. On log out, the panel always segfaulted. The appearance is, well, pretty crappy compared with KDE (one font selector, which doesn't seem to work right). Gdm is completely broken (the daemon continuously restarts, and the configuration tools are broken and won't even start. Sawfish 2 doesn't seem to want to even pull up any configuration applets. Interoperability between Gnome2 and Gnome1 apps seems ok, until gGConf comes into play. If gnome1 installed gconf is running, Gnome2 apps screw up, if gnome2 is running it's gconf, Gnome1 apps that are GConf aware mess up. All this is my own machine, with gnome prefixes differing between 1 and 2, but under the same configuration, KDE is good to go... Maybe at release time, we will see a different story. Both show great promise.

Re:KDE3 vs. Gnome2

[Junta]

Another point I wanted to make, this time in favor of Gnome :) Galeon is a truly top notch browser. Konqueror is ok, but everything renders with mozilla's engine, and khtml sometimes falls short. Additionally, Konqueror seems to completely dismiss the notion of tab browsing. Though so many people want it and request it, it seems like the stance they take is "no, tabbed browsing is not good UI design, it's not as easy to use, even if so many users think it is". Of course, this is unsubstantiated claim, but it feels that way. I just don't get how so many people can dismiss concepts in UI design through supposed expert research that tells users they don't know what they want.

Re:KDE3 vs. Gnome2

[JabberWokky]

Konqueror is ok, but everything renders with mozilla's engine, and khtml sometimes falls short.

In Konqueror, go to View, Vide Mode, and pick Mozilla instead of KHTML. It's been there for most of the 2.0 series. Konqueror is just a framework for loading plugins. Mozilla's engine has been a KDE plugin for quite awhile.

I just don't get how so many people can dismiss concepts in UI design

It's hardly dismissed - the code is already finished, and tabbed browsing is an option in the KDE 3.1 release (it was judged too fundimental a change for the 3.0 release). Do a search, and I'm sure you can find some screenshots.

--
Evan

Re:KDE3 vs. Gnome2

[Junta]

Cool, I thought I remembered that from KDE2, but the option seems to have disappeared in the 3.0 branch... Or else moved. If it has moved, could someone tell me where?

Re:Widely accepted by who?

[TheAwfulTruth]

I really don't think that it's KDEs mission to convert every command line lovin' Linux hacker over to a GUI. KDE is oviously trying to appeal to non-Linux users! And as such, is probably VERY widely accepted over some of the more minimalist or non existant window managers out there...

Mirroring on Sourceforge

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

How about mirroring on Sourceforge?

I'll wait for 3.0.1

[rodolfo.borges]

I used kde back in the 0.x and 1.x days.
Then switched to gnome1 just to try it,
and found the pannel MUCH better then kde's.
Got tired of all the bloat and crashes,
and came back to a plain icewm environment.
(99% of the time I'm in rxtv, vi or mozilla,
don't use the file manager, so why eat so
much memory with (almost) useless stuff?)

Think it's time to try a "desktop" again,
more for curiosity than for real need,
but I'll wait for the 3.0.1 version, that is
sure come in a few weeks after 3.0 to fix
some comon sily bugs.

Focus problem? (Rendering issues.)

[fm6]

What's the focus problem?

I have no problem posting to /. from the KDE2 version of Konqueror. (Maybe because I use click-focus instead of hover-focus. I have a Windows mindset--sue me.) I rarely do, though, because Konqueror has trouble rendering a lot of /. pages correctly. Rendering issues are the main reason I don't use Konqueror more. If these are addressed in KDE3, Konqueror is ready to kick some serious butt.

Re:They fixed it! Hooray!

[szo]

The "focus problem" that I've been whining piteously about for so long has been fixed, so I can now actually post to Slashdot with Konqueror in KDE3...

What was that problem?

Szo

UI whore speaking...

[ACK!!]

Listen KDE and GNOME by default have configurations that are similiar to Windoze.

It does NOT mean that you have to live with your desktop set this way. The control center for GNOME is confusing in its placement but KDE is logically laid out (the only bad part is that with KDE you get an insane amount of dizzying options to choose from).

I live with GNOME because I use primarily GTK+ or GNOME apps and have it set with a CDE style main panel and a menu panel above (which is kinda like Mac OSX but the usability is light years different and yes this is not the configuration for those short on screeen real estate).

However, I have KDE set up for my wife because I could make it look very XPish to cut her learning curve and SuSE 7.3 actually has a fairly tasty looking default look. You can play with the styles and Windows decorations and end up something that look very unique.

If you don't like the desktop environments then run WindowMaker. It looks good and is very traditional in the Unix way it does things. You can go to the KDE control-panel and set the kde apps to have NeXtStep look and choose one of the many GTK themes so the Gnomish apps have a Step feel to it. That way you still get the uniformed feeel except for the stock icons.

The great thing about Linux is that you have a zillion or so different choices in the way to do these things.

Its also what makes it pain in the ass for the common user trying to figure what is best for them. :->

________________________________________________ __

Re:STABLE?! My arse..

[bero-rh]

No problems whatsoever here, and our rawhide users haven't found many issues with it either.

By any chance, are you using gcc 3.0.x?
That's broken.

Eject! Eject!

[FortranDragon]

Is anyone else amused by the fact that the maximize window button on Keramik is the same symbol as the eject button on your VCR? :-D

Don't you mean "KDE Kario"?

[cpeterso]

Why not name it KDE Chi Ro?


:)

I just need a MIDI sequencer...

[cies]

I just need a MIDI sequencer, and brahms delivers that+some need extra's... that all ;-)

(i wish i could get it to work (i tried a _lot_))

thanks, you deserve the karma...

[cies]

Thanks, you deserve the karma... that's the info i was looking for!
Now, how's in charge of not releasing the kmusic package... To my opinion this package is quite releasable, isn't it?

-C

Re:STABLE?! My arse..

[captredballs]

I've been in the same boat. Every time I get updates from CVS it seems to have more build bugs. I've only go the damn thing compiled completely twice in the last month and I don't really have the time to be trying every day.

Its been over a week though, so maybe their big hacking session fixed many of those problems.

Re:Windows 2000

[chfleming]

I do too, and KDE(and linux) needs alot of work before it will replace windows on my desktop. Such as the ability to completely modify every aspect of your system without opening a terminal window.

This is the worst possible claim that any Windows defender could possibly make. The Windows registry is one of the worst design decisions that Microsoft has ever stuck to. It is a big pile of shit.

In windows you can configure some options via a GUI, some options via the registry, and some options are not available.

In Linux you can configure few options via a GUI, many options via text config files with comments, some options via source code, and there are very few options not available.

As of now, you cannot make any claim that one is better than the other with out some subjective metric.

Re:Windows people are clueless

[optikSmoke]

Hmmmm.... here's my answer to a few of your points, plus my own reasons for preferring KDE over Windows:

* Why do we care about themes? People like things to look how they want. If you come from mac, make it look like a mac (right down to windowbar button positions), if you come from windows, do the same. If you want your own look, do it!

* I would say it doesn't get confusing after 4. I believe KDE offers the ability to name your desktops, and again, this is choice -- maybe some find it confusing, but others do not.

* Personally, if all way implemented properly (as it is in newer qt3/kde3 apps), Unix-style cut/paste is more effiecient. I can highlight something and press the middle button to paste it somewhere -- easy mouse actions. Or, I can use ctrl-c/ctrl-v.

* Granted, Explorer windows do this -- however, my entire session (licq, noatun, kmail (minimized), konsole, konqueror, gimp (on another desktop), anything else I happen to have open) will appear in the correct spot on logout/login. Windows will *not* do that without create "Startup" shortcuts for each app, and even then it will not recognize whne I close something then logout/login.

*ummm.... I don't know why. Bookmarks is bookmarks, mostly.

*It seems that MS copies most features from other places (KDE incl. perhaps), though KDE also copies from other things.

Anyway, here are features I like in KDE (most of these are available in other WMs):

*window snapping ("magnetic borders", whatever). I don't see this in windows

*right-click/middle-click for horizontal and vertical window maximizing (again, not in windows).

*middleclicking on titlebar to activate and lower window, rightclicking to remain in place, and similar mouse actions (slightly different when clicking on the body of the window). In other words, I can move windows up/down more efficiently, and have the active window not be on top. Quite useful.

*The ability to make _any_ window always-on-top.

*Smart JS/JS popup/Java/Cookie policies so I don't have to worry about sites that what to bombard me with stuff I don't want. (I think IE6 _finally_ has some of this, last I heard)

*Smart searches in the Konqy toolbar (eg "gg:google search terms"). Even better, you can define your own, and have different parameters make up specific parts of the search URL. I think IE has something similar to this now, though.

Please note, lets not start a "who-got-it-first" war, it's pointless. I know other opensource things that have had these features first, and I know that windows also has some of these features. However, for me, when I go into Windows I feel crippled: The features I have listed above I use on a regular basis, and those that windows does not have became painfully obvious when I use it.

screen for X

[RovingSlug]

I'd like to see a proxy for X applications in the same sense that "screen" is a proxy for terminal applications.

Something like a mock X server for the application to attach to, that then can attach or reattach to a given X server. So, if the local X server crashes you lose nothing. You just reattach the apps to the X server when it restarts.

Of course, that also allows nice things like remotely reattaching apps. Though, it won't help out for something like Unreal.

Re:screen for X

[RovingSlug]

Ah, ty.

KDE panel

[miracle69]

The one thing that *still* bugs me about KDE is the inability for the panel to work like GNOME. In GNOME, you can have not only multiple workspaces, but rows and columns within a workspace. This allows you to drag stuff across the screen and have it scroll to the next row/column without having to change workspaces. Why can't KDE implement this?

Re:Screenshots? Keyboard!!

[drf5n]

One thing I disliked about KDE2 versus KDE 1 was the elimination of the local menu accelerators -- you used to be able to bring up the menu and hit a key corresponding to the unerlined character on your menu item and it would go. Changing their UI like that hindered my use of KDE2. Windows does this, as in Alt-F S for _S_ave, and there are a few sub-menus in KDE2 that use them, but it is impossible to configure. KDE 1 used to do this, and its menu editor would support it by using a menu entry like &Save. As for using the windows key, I alwaus like Ctrl-Esc to bring up the main/start menu in Windows, KDE, FVWM, etc. Ctrl-Esc R gets me a nice useful command prompt on ALL my computers. Another thing difficult with the KDE keybindings is that they are stored as one per function, rather than 1 function per key-combo -- If you used the Win key to open the main menu, then you could not also use the KDE default Alt-F1 to do the same thing.

qt3 binaries

[Halo5]

I got all of the kde3 packages, but where the #$&* do I have to go to get THIS?

error: failed dependencies:
qt >= 3.0.3 is needed by kdelibs-3.0-0.rc3.1

I've searched all over the mirror sites and rpmfind, with no luck!

Re:qt3 binaries

[dark_panda]

Try rawhide, Red Hat's bleeding edge alpha-type system. Should be on ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/linux/rawhide, or something to that effect. (That's where I got them, but I'm rebuilding from src, as it's a little flaky.)

J

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[Mandelbrute]

What exactly is a legitimate Linux user, pray tell?

One that can name both parents.

Re:Windows people are clueless

[rseuhs]

* Why do we care so much about themes over everything else?

I don't care about themes. It was just an example of something Microsoft ripped off KDE.

* How many desktops do you need? Doesn't it get confusing after 4?

I get confused not using 16 desktops when I got 40 or more windows open. And yes I want 40 windows open.

* How can Unix-style cut&paste be more efficient when it works so clumsely? I couldn't tell you how to do it by keyboard (consistent across apps), and couldn't find instructions on it either.

It works both the Unix-style method (MMB) and the MacOS-style method (keyboard) in KDE and consistently.

* Explorer windows can also reappear after logging out.

Only for the local filesystem which makes them pretty useless. I want webbrowser windows reapearing

* Why does Konqueror have better bookmarking?

You can create bookmark-dirs without helper-app and you also a nicer bookmark-bar. It MIGHT help if you would actually try it before you judge it.

* How can you claim KDE to be more innovative when most features were copied from MS? Unless you mean they copied them fast.

I provided a list which KDE had first or Windows still doesn't have. Just because you seem to have a chip in your brain that sais (Windows-> good useful feature, not Windows-> useless feature) doesn't make KDE uninnovative.

And that you obviously didn't even try it for a reasonable amount of time, speaks for itself.

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[jimlascola]

How much is M$ paying you to come here and post you FUD

Why, oh why

[Trogre]

... do they still insist on ordering the desktop switcher in the downward reading order? (Is this how the chinese read, I'm not sure?)

What I'm talking about is the layout of the desktop switcher in the toolbar looking like this:
1 3
2 4
Why isn't it in the order that the english language reads text? ie:
1 2
3 4
I know you can go for the 'tiny' scheme, where they are all on one line, but that makes a lot of other things ugly.
At least it's not like much earlier KDE versions, where you had:
One Three
Two Four

/rant

Re:Why, oh why

[glwtta]

Yes, I am sure this very issue is keeping thousands of people from using KDE.

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[Dunkelzahn]

Its not mentioned by Microsoft or in any help files, but there are replacements for the explorer.exe shell in existence that effectively function like putting a new window manager up on Windows OSen. I can't find the official website but here's one that will give you the general drift for LiteStep,
a shell replacement for Windows I know of offhand. My OS of choice is Linux, simply for stability/usability's sake, but there are other desktops available to Windows users beyond the ugly win32/explorer shell.

Re:Windows people are clueless

[MrBoring]

While I might disagree with some of your points, at least you've been more detailed. I wish more people would back up their opinions with a statement about why they have them. More people should say why they like something instead of just saying Linux/KDE Awesome!/Windows horrible, evil, wretched, second-rate, low quality, etc. For a site that has a whole bunch of science related articles, Slashdot has a definate lacke of objectivity.

Re:Windows people are clueless

[MrBoring]

* Why does Konqueror have better bookmarking?

You can create bookmark-dirs without helper-app and you also a nicer bookmark-bar. It MIGHT help if you would actually try it before you judge it.

I didn't judge it. You did, and I did try Konquerer, and it didn't impress me much.

* How can you claim KDE to be more innovative when most features were copied from MS? Unless you mean they copied them fast.

I provided a list which KDE had first or Windows still doesn't have. Just because you seem to have a chip in your brain that sais (Windows-> good useful feature, not Windows-> useless feature) doesn't make KDE uninnovative

* You forgot about the things such as drag and drop, better application integration(which KDE is now starting to do.

And no, I'm not trying to be anti Linux/pro Windows, if that's what you mean. I'm anti Linux zealot, pro Windows pragmatist. All I want is for people here to be more objective with their opinions. If people were more objective and reasoned in their arguments, they wouldn't be so closed minded and mentally sour.

And that you obviously didn't even try it for a reasonable amount of time, speaks for itself.

How long is reasonable? How long should I suffer with something I don't like?

Re:Windows people are clueless

[optikSmoke]

I agree entirely, and this is exactly why I made this post. I have been reading slashdot and the dot (ie dot.kde.org) for quite awhile, and I have seen many such posts, especially when people are talking about their favourite WM or DE (including non-linux ones like MacOS and Windows). People say "I like xxx, yyy sucks ass". This pisses me off so much that I almost respond to such drivel, before remembering that most people who write that crap aren't open to an in-depth look at features or rational reasons, they just want their l337 h4x0r OS, and windoze be damned, man! Personally, I use linux for features, and for apps, for freedom (as in choice), and for flexibility (among other reasons). I can respect MS as a marketing behemoth, but I generally tend away from their products.

Re:They fixed it! Hooray!

[tunah]

The other problem isn't KDE's fault - I just can't get Quanta to start under KDE3 is all

So I guess it's really only half a problem as well then. You can tell a physicist, they will never use 0.5 and Quanta in the same sentence.

Re:font anti-aliasing

[Anonymous Coward]

Font anti-aliasing is done by X/freetype. Make sure you have it enabled, XFree 4.1 has a bug which prevents it from using in some cases, so be be sure to upgrade to XFree 4.2.

Re:Windows people are clueless

[rseuhs]

I'm anti Linux zealot, pro Windows pragmatist. All I want is for people here to be more objective with their opinions. If people were more objective and reasoned in their arguments, they wouldn't be so closed minded and mentally sour.

Huh?

Why was all you posted just prejudices and hearsay?

It was me who posted spedific examples, remember? Just because you think that everything not available in Windows is useless (that you think that nobody needs more than 4 desktops is typical. Such a coincidence, I bet if MS would have offered up to 6 desktops you would think that 6 desktops is the maximum one might ever need) doesn't mean you are objective.

So far you lack any objective argument.

How long is reasonable? How long should I suffer with something I don't like?

I'd say about 2 weeks of daily usage are needed - not to start being productive (you can use it right away) but to discouver the smart innovative features of KDE - exactly what you think don't exist.

P.S.: Oh and another feature is the Alt-modifier-key that allows you to move and resize windows faster and more comfortably. Windows doesn't do that either.

If you think you are so objective, maybe it's time that you start posting at least one example of a GUI-feature Windows has but KDE hasn't.

Sad that the only major improvement in WinXP (themeing) was copied from KDE, isn't it?

Re:Windows people are clueless

[MrBoring]

Why was all you posted just prejudices and hearsay?

It was me who posted spedific examples, remember? Just because you think that everything not available in Windows is useless (that you think that nobody needs more than 4 desktops is typical. Such a coincidence, I bet if MS would have offered up to 6 desktops you would think that 6 desktops is the maximum one might ever need) doesn't mean you are objective.

So far you lack any objective argument.

To prejudge means to make a judgement without foundation. I've used KDE, and therefore have foundation, and made no prejudicial statement. Further, how do you purport to know what I think? For all you know, I could love KDE and Linux, but have a few problems with it. The real problem here is that I've made a few favorable comments about Windows and a raised issues with KDE, which apparently makes my arguments "prejudices and hearsay."

Also, these were some of your "specific" examples:

Unix-style cut&paste is much more efficient and unmatched by Apple-style cut&paste used in Windows.

You later expounded on this, but didn't when you first mentioned it. Not objective here.

Konqueror has much better bookmark-handling than any other browser.

Later you said,

You can create bookmark-dirs without helper-app and you also a nicer bookmark-bar. It MIGHT help if you would actually try it before you judge it.

Somewhat more objective the second time, but why didn't you say this the first time? Anyway, you can create bookmark directories in IE, with and without the organizer feature. But no, you can't create them by editing a text file. Sorry. And anyway, I still didn't swoon over the Konqueror bookmark bar. My overall impression of Konquerer was, "Great. Now when I use Linux, I have a browser close to the way IE works! (When it can get through our firewall)"

Oh and another feature is the Alt-modifier-key that allows you to move and resize windows faster and more comfortably. Windows doesn't do that either.

Select your window. Hit Alt-Space, then some excelator key (R for restore, N for minimize, X-For maximize, etc). Obviously, YOU need to try something for a reasonable length of time before you judge something.

I'd say about 2 weeks of daily usage are needed - not to start being productive (you can use it right away) but to discouver the smart innovative features of KDE - exactly what you think don't exist.

OK, I passed your test months ago. I still didn't prefer the KDE GUI over Linux. Granted that was some version of 2. Still, if I'm going to make some leap from Windows to Linux/KDE combination, I need more than pretty themes. Speaking of themes, I'd like to remind you that the appearance of Windows isn't unmaleable, though you can't make it look like BeOS or a Mac.

If you think you are so objective, maybe it's time that you start posting at least one example of a GUI-feature Windows has but KDE hasn't.

• How about the use of the keyboard. OK, not innovative, but see one of my prior posts. It would be really nice to have one key to get to just about everything I'd need under KDE--Such as the Win Key!
  
• Related excelerator keys such as Win-D for the desktop, or Win-M to minimize everything.
  
• File extensions. These exist in Linux, but not to the same extent. In Windows, I can easily sort a column of files by their type. Something I cannot do in KDE (again v2?). Since it's far more common to have a file in Linux without an extension, this is less useful of a feature.
  
• Also, wouldn't it be nice if I could control every aspect of the GUI from within the GUI? Imagine not being required to edit some XFree86 file when I change pointer devices, video cards, etc. Imagine if these were integrated in one place. Something like a registry!
  
• Another advantage Windows has over the KDE/Linux solution is configurability of applications. Since Linux has so many files, most (but not all) in /etc, in different formats, plus two window environments and several window managers, it's hard to program for them. As an application writer, I need to be aware of most or all of them. This is a price of choice. Under windows, I could have the app configurable on setup, in the program itself, inside the control panel, or the registry.
  
• Another thing I'd like to rub in all you pro Linux/Windows haters, is the lack of device support. Just try to find a device supported under Linux that's not supported under Windows. OK, so that's not a KDE problem, but it's fun to say.
  

Anyway, my original gripe with most of this discussion is the emphasis on themes. Too much attention is paid to this, and not enough to functionality.

Re:Windows people are clueless

[MrBoring]

I think we can tell by the subject line. Blanket statements that "Windows People are Clueless" are ignorant and devoid of merit. I don't know how many Linux/KDE professionals there are today, but I do know they are dwarfed by the Windows people. Are all of them "clueless"?

Re:Windows people are clueless

[rseuhs]

I could love KDE and Linux, but have a few problems with it.

Well, I didn't say KDE is perfect, the main problem I have with it is speed, but that's completely outside the "innovation"-debate (and KDE3 solves this problem to the most part).

Anyway, you can create bookmark directories in IE, with and without the organizer feature. But no, you can't create them by editing a text file.

No, that's not what I meant. In Konqui you can browse your bookmarks and insert a directory directly.

For example you encounter a site you want to bookmark. You go to your bookmarks -> topic , then you decide you want to put it into a subtopic-folder. In any other browser you would leave the bookmarks, fire up the helper-app, browse to the same position, insert the file, then quit, and the bookmark it.

In Konqueror, you realize that a directory is missing, click on "new directory" which is a menu-point directly below the last bookmark and poof- you just created a directory and can bookmark your site. Much faster than the other method.

Select your window. Hit Alt-Space, then some excelator key (R for restore, N for minimize, X-For maximize, etc). Obviously, YOU need to try something for a reasonable length of time before you judge something.

Why should I be interested in that?

See this.

Look for the chapter "The ALT-key for easier window manipulation"

It's about resizing and moving. I don't see that in "R for restore, N for minimize, X-For maximize".

It would be really nice to have one key to get to just about everything I'd need under KDE--Such as the Win Key!

In Windows the Win-key is only used to open the start-menu (correct me if I'm wrong), that's not really that great of a feature. But if you really can't live without it, you can redefine KDE's behaviour to open the "K"-menu with it.

Related excelerator keys such as Win-D for the desktop, or Win-M to minimize everything.

AFAIK, KDE3 has added something like this. Don't know details, though.

File extensions. These exist in Linux, but not to the same extent. In Windows, I can easily sort a column of files by their type. Something I cannot do in KDE (again v2?).

Konqueror/KFM could always do that. Back into the v1.x days.

Also, wouldn't it be nice if I could control every aspect of the GUI from within the GUI? Imagine not being required to edit some XFree86 file when I change pointer devices, video cards, etc. Imagine if these were integrated in one place.

That would be the KDE-control center. In SuSE, everything from network-settings to X-configuration can be done in the control center.

Other distros are a bit behind, though. BTW, did you try RedHat? Even RedHat's boss Young said that it's not targeted at the desktop, try SuSE or at least Mandrake next time.

Oh and I didn't mention that the KDE-control center is much better than the one in Windows because it's a tree-like organized structure, not just a directory with random config-tools thrown in.

Something like a registry!

*shudder*

Oh yeah, I really need a binary only thing that is just like a filesystem plus config-files (tree-like structure), only with fewer features and with absolutely no documentation.

I never understood why the Windows-zealots (yes, I use the word zealot here) think that putting settings out of one tree-like structure (the filesystem) into another tree-like structure (the registry) is having it "in one place". Those who think this is "in one place" only repeated MS-marketing without thinking. Pure zealotry.

Re:Linux people are hypocrites

[berck]

Just where, pray tell, did Linux use Fisher Price's look anywhere?

Re:They fixed it! Hooray!

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

What was that problem?

It used to be that the "focus" on a webpage was always(?) on the links on the page in KDE3. So, in other words, as I'm typing here in the textarea to fill in this web form, the "focus" is here (and if I hit ENTER, it should do whatever "Enter" means where it is focussed, i.e. it should put a newline in the textarea). Previously, once I hit "enter" in the textarea, the FOCUS was still on the first link in the page, even though it's the textarea that the focus SHOULD have been on, since I'm typing in it. Upon hitting enter, it would go to the first link in the page, rather than adding a line to the text...

(I don't know how coherent that explanation was, but hopefully it helps. The short version is that you couldn't hit "enter" anywhere in a webpage without having it act as though you just clicked on the currently-focussed link on the page...)

Re:Windows people are clueless

[Bungie]

* Granted, Explorer windows do this -- however, my entire session (licq, noatun, kmail (minimized), konsole, konqueror, gimp (on another desktop), anything else I happen to have open) will appear in the correct spot on logout/login. Windows will *not* do that without create "Startup" shortcuts for each app, and even then it will not recognize whne I close something then logout/login.

Actually, under NT if you turn on the option, Windows will reload everything exactly as you left it, including unsaved notepad Windows and anything else you leave open. This option is off by default because it is very annoying. I think you can find it under your start menu options under 2K/XP.