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Gates: Say No to GPL, Yes to the Microsoft Ecosystem
Andy Tai writes "As part of Microsoft's campaign against the GPL, Bill Gates is personally coming to the front line to launch attacks. While speaking at the Government Leadership Conference, Gates argues against spending R&D dollars for GPLed software development. He suggests countries that look to adapt the GPL model are denying "the benefits of an eco-system that has worked extremely well in the United States" and they should copy the system in the US (where Microsoft has an monopoly). He further suggests that source code availability is not generally needed, and when it is needed, Microsoft provides it. Invoking words like "capitalism" and "innovation", Gates argues that free software can exist, but should be like a free unix called "VSB" (probably a transcription error for BSD), without the GPL around it. Gates continues: 'A government can fund research work on BFP, UNIX, and still have commercial companies in their country start off around that type of work. You know, technology policies like biotech -- you only -- if your universities are doing work that can be commercialized, you will have IT jobs in your country. And if they are not, then fine, just say that farming is your thing, or whatever it is. All the taxes will be paid by those guys or something -- I don't know. And the farmers will go home at night and work on the source code.' It is interesting to note that Microsoft is increasingly using the same "ecosystem" arguments for defending itself in the anti-trust trial and attacks on the GPL."
Give added emphasis to the word "Micro-serfs"
If he's reading VSB instead of BSD and didn't catch it, don't you think maybe that he's talking out of his ass?
Mistakes like that are made my moron PHBs at board room meetings ("Tell us about this Lunix thing again?"), not by supposed "computer revolutionaries."
Yawn.
Windbag, you would have thought this was Jon Katz
Microsoft gains nothing by attacking free software, they should either ignore it or somehow adopt it, for instance publishing a version of Office for FreeBSD or something where they wouldn't have to open the code like they do for Mac Office. By fighting it like this it only makes the programmer/engineer/IT community hate Microsoft more and want to adopt more free software solutions in the workplace.
Thanks,
Travis
forkspoon@hotmail.com
Because they know GPL is the demise of them. Once we get an esay, open distro of an OS out there to the masses, they're finished. This is the preemptive strike, ya'll.
I'll go home and change all my stuff to VSB straight away. Christ was I deluded!
Thank God someone like him, with no alteriour motives and a heart of gold, is around to steer humanity back on track.
Liberty.
Is it me, or does Gates sound a little high in this interview? I mean, this guy, by all accounts, is pretty GD smart whether you want to admit it or not, and here he's giving answers like "All the taxes will be paid by those guys or something -- I don't know. And the farmers will go home at night and work on the source code."
Who the hell would want to go home from a day of backbusting labor and work on source code?
Mike
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
To be ontopic: Bill Gates isn't really saying anything wrong here. Selling closed-source software has worked, for Microsoft as well as many other companies. Consumers have for the most part benefited, PCs are cheaper and better than they've ever been. Conversely, look at the business eco-system of GPL software. Very very bleak indeed. You can point at a big name like Red Hat, but commercial businesses that derive from GPL software just isn't as successful. Its true, it's true.
And comparing sharecropping to this is just absolutely asinine. Michael = trolling for slashdot.
There should be some good quotes in the upcoming part of the trial. Hopefully, the prosecutors won't be too in awe of his wealth to avoid asking the hard questions. Providing source code? When? For windows? I hope that countries like India move to open source so they force Microsoft to compete where it counts. The open marketplace. Not the courtroom.
I've read all of Bill's books and he himself is the first to admit that every company sees its time. Someday, MS will bite the bullet, but they're not going to go without trying. We (PC users) owe M$ nothing, and they know that.
Why does Bill Gates take Viagra? To make himself look taller!! What a gigantic dick.
Yeah alot of hippies are into /., but how many of them support microsoft, you m$ tool?
If you don't like copylefted software, you can always WRITE YOUR OWN CODE.
Yes, I know; many people have said this before me. And Gates' point is that governments shouldn't subsidize copylefted software, not that free software should be outlawed or anything like that.
While I'll be happy to see any source of money go to fund free software development, and I think that if the government does fund development it should fund only free software and preferably copylefted software, I personally don't feel the need to have the government subsidize it. The government subsidizes too many things already. I'll be happy for the government to not subsidize copylefted software, as long as it doesn't subsidize proprietary software, either.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Theoretically, microsoft doesn't have a problem in a "capitalist" economy. If they would just make better software (that doesn't crash) people would choose them. The only problem they may have is when they stop making better software. I am glad the GPL is keeping these guys on their toes.
Uh, I think the transcription error occurred after Bill Gates saying it when the transcriber monkey typed it incorrectly. Since transcriber monkey probably only makes $10 per hour, he could care less if it's VSD, BSD or LSD. Or maybe they are using that crappy Microsoft Research speech recognizer...
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
Actually I'm still in college tool.
and gets a haircut once a month...
Only since he married.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
I'm convinced that amateurs are usually better at most things than professionals, for the simple reason that they care more.
As an example: I write professionally. This is a Friday afternoon -- my productivity level is dropping toward zero. But I am taking the time to make (semi-)intelligent comments on slashdot. Why? Because at slashdot, I'm an amateur. I'm in this because I feel like it, not because I'm being paid to do it.
OT: perhaps that's why Taco et al are so unproductive at their jobs? Because it is just "a job" for them? Hmmm... interesting concept.
"Anything is better than IE, and you can quote me on that." -- Wil Wheaton.
Because his single biggest customer is the US and state gov'ts. He's got this one sewn up.
It was Janet Reno, upon her inauguration in 1993, that banned all non-MS software at the DOJ. Every lawyer used MS Word from that day forward, as did all the private lawyers that communicated with them.
I've always thought it strange for the DOJ to sue MS for abuse of monopoly, when the DOJ and other gov't agencies, by their purchasing patterns, enforce a defacto monopoly for MS.
Mr. Gates is hardly a revolutionary.
;-)
A businessperson, yes. A good businessperson? Of course; he's evil enough and it's hard to argue that his company is not monetarily successful.
But calling Mr. Gates a computer revolutionary? Oh dear God no. The only significant contribution that he personally made was decades ago while working in his dorm room, and even then Paul Allen probably did most of the tech work (this is a fact, not an inciteful comment).
I'd also wager that the VSB error was one resulting from poor transcription of his speech rather than him being an uninformed idiot when it comes to open source and free software, althought I'd certainly get a kick out of him confusing Lunix and STD or something
- Eric
Founder, monolinux.com
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
...it's all PR meant mostly for people who know little or nothing about IT, but who can influence decisions. Sales pitch--nothing new under the sun.
It's supposed to be completely automatic, but actually you have to press this button.
There are a lot of businesses and consultants making money selling and supporting GPL'd software.
You don't see massive software marketing organisations like Microsoft because the business model doesn't support that style of organisation.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Hmmm, you get paid, yes, but your paycheck is only a tiny itty bitty speck of how much money the code you write makes. Unless you make $28,000,000 a year, you are being RIPPED OFF. Doing 99.9% of the work and getting paid 0.000001% of the profit doesn't sound like a good deal to me. In fact, giving your code away for free and getting a reputation for being an excellent coder with innovative ideas will pay off MUCH more in the long run.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
If you read any surveys and studies recently, you'll know that most people who participate in the free software movement are veterans of the industry. In other words, they probably make just as much money, if not more, than you by writing software for a living.
Many of the free software contributors write free code on the side, either as a hobby or because they believe in the movement.
Besides, how many of us actually get to write the kinds of software that we want for work?! Money isn't everything, especially if it means selling my soul.
-B
Hmm... Source accessibility is not needed. Ecosystem needs to be diverse.
;) Think poison arrow frogs.
These are good points, but they don't support Gates' position against the GPL. If diversity is important, than I am comfortable with proprietary licenses, BSD/MIT style liceses, GPL style licenses and the most restrictive of all, Alladin style licenses all being a part of the diverse ecosystem.
What Gates hates is that the GPL, like many components of our biological ecosystem has some defences against being eaten
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I don't understand how the richest man in the world can remain so greedy. He must know in the back of his mind that "real" open source is a very good thing, it benefits so many people in different ways. I'm really fed up of reading every second day about M$ fucking another small(er) companys/ideas/plans etc... to uphold thier monopoly(s). Fuck M$ and fuck Gates.
The icon was perfect for a speech talking about how closed source software is so much better than GPL software.
A trash can filled with unused lightbulbs.
Throw away all those ideas coming from those bright minds in college, because you can't innovate with the GPL!
I haven't lost my mind!
It is backed up on disk...somewhere...
No, seriously :-)
I'm glad to see Uncle Bill pushing the "BSD". God knows he's made enuff money off using the code taken there from.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Ok I can get that VSD is BSD, but what the heck is BFP?
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Microsoft doesn't pay any corporate income tax, remember?
(OK, technically they're still paying off their tax bills from 1999 and before, but for the last three years, the bottom line on Microsoft's 1040 form has said "Total Taxes Due: $0".) (And yes, I know that corporations don't really use the 1040 form.)
I hope you learn to write secure code. Almost all of our MS computers are turned off until our sys-admin can remove the latest virus (Klez) from them. Our Linux and (one) OS-2 computers and our (Linux) servers are fine.
Back in the days of CP/M he would go into tirades accusing all CP/M users of being pirates and
stealing his software. The man has been cross threaded for years. He really has a screw loose.
Why should the government pay for research and development of software under a license that allows Microsoft to take it, modify it (perhaps trivially, perhaps integrate it into the OS) and then sell it back to the US government and citizens for $big profits?
If the government pays for research and development of GPL'ed software, they are ensuring that the government, US citizens, and US corporations will always be free to use the fruits of that work, even after it has been extended. That's how I would prefer my tax dollars to be spent, thanks.
And I don't want to hear any whining here about how no-one will bother extending or improving the software if they can't profit from it. The entire history of Linux and other GPL'ed software has proven that theory wrong...
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
...is that he can't take the code without honoring the owner's wishes as far as payment goes. With every other license he can find a way to get the code without having to shell out anything significant, but with the GPL he can't get out of paying back in the same coin he received: code.
"Feeding frenzy".
"Killing fields".
"Abattoir".
And the brethren went away edified.
...introduces a bill which aims to ban the GPL? Oh that's right, he is the Disney Senator... Who's the Microsoft Senator?
I support Gates' position on this simply because I think material funded by the government should be free for all to benefit from, not just communities and not just corporations. Public domain is where it belongs.
We say there should be an eco-system so something like VSB, which is a free form of UNIX, but it's not - -doesn't have this GPL with it, versus Linux which does -- there's a big contrast. A government can fund research work on BFP, UNIX, and still have commercial companies in their country start off around that type of work.
Do you need the source code of an operating system as a user of that operating system? That is, should you be paying your people to study the intricacies of how the operating system is built and stuff like that? And the basic answer is no. Well, it is quite agreeable. But if support cost on MS Windows PCs are sky high (because they are a monopoly) then there may be nothing wrong in spending time recompiling kernels. But I wonder that will be the case though.
Microsoft sets new standard in MS English XP
"ecosystem - n : a system formed by the interaction of one organism with its physical environment"
Nice attitude, asshole - "for the betterment of society... or whatever..."
As if "the betterment of society" is a goal you can legitimately dismiss with an oh-so-casual "whatever"!
Of *course* making money is more important than anything as stupid as "society". Thanks for pointing that out.
Have fun writing MS code for a living.
Hmmm, you get paid, yes, but your paycheck is only a tiny itty bitty speck of how much money the code you write makes. Unless you make $28,000,000 a year, you are being RIPPED OFF. Doing 99.9% of the work and getting paid 0.000001% of the profit doesn't sound like a good deal to me. In fact, giving your code away for free and getting a reputation for being an excellent coder with innovative ideas will pay off MUCH more in the long run.
Do you realize how many programmers microsoft employees? Under your figures, there are only about 1000, when in reality, there are probably 10 or 20 times that much (not including support teams for all the products).
In fact, giving your code away for free and getting a reputation for being an excellent coder with innovative ideas will pay off MUCH more in the long run.
true, but I would rather have both.
Doing 99.9% of the work and getting paid 0.000001% of the profit doesn't sound like a good deal to me
I hardly think one programmer does that much work.
/. should run a poll to see how many ppl here actually write windows code for a living, and gpl code for fun. Luckily I work for a company that doesn't try to own all my intellectual property.
Like it or lump it windows programming is currently were most of the money is. I'd love to get a job writing GPL'd software for a living. If linux and open-source in general keep winning ground maybe writing GPL'd software will be where most of the money is.
but ONLY to the customers that THEY deem worthy or large enough to "need it".
Microsoft: "We know what you need better than you do."
What happened to "the customer is always right"?
I hope you learn to write secure code. Almost all of our MS computers are turned off until our sys-admin can remove the latest virus (Klez) from them. Our Linux and (one) OS-2 computers and our (Linux) servers are fine.
Maybe you need less stupid computer users? I use windows and I've been sent the Worm.e/Klez virus like 1000 times already... Each time I get it I just delete it and move on.
Have yet to be infected...
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Weirdly enough, he then moves on the characterize the BSD license as somehow less charitable and more business-like. The BSD license is the total-give-away license: you get the code and you have no obligation to provide anything in return. GPL, however, is the value-added license: if you change the code and if you distribute it, then your derived work is still part of the original work. I know this will start a heated debate, but if my tax dollars are paying for something, I want it issused so that some value comes back, not just a welfare-like giveaway. It seems that Bill now wants to move on the being a welfare recipient. Weird.
Miko O'Sullivan
Ok, Windows is a great ecosystem, GPL is a virus, open source eats your brain, and Barney shall now be your king and Lord?
I'm sorry, I read this, and I am really not sure what the purpose of this is. Feel free to call me stupid, but what the hell?
Really I tried to understand this, and I utterly failed. Either Gates is way more brilliant than I am, or I am way more stupid than a donkey.
(Ouch, I just did this: Gates>me>donkey. That leaves a lot of latitude!)
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
It ain't perfect, but its what we got!
There are a lot of businesses and consultants making money selling and supporting GPL'd software.
Which ones? I would love to know the numbers vs. closed commercial software. I suspect it would be like a gnat on an elephant's ass.
are you on crack?
how many companies have been killed by ms when they incorporated their software into windows?
Why is it that even when IT was really hot writing windows software was not considered a good enterprise? Every thing had to be on the net, on servers or made for webbrowsers.
Microsoft kills every company that tries to make a mass used software for windows. the only ones that survive are the ones in the niches - game developers, accounting prog ppl etc, proffessional software developers etc.
And saying Pcs are cheaper is kind of silly because if it wasnt for microsoft's barage of new windows versions, most people would not need to buy a new computer every two years to do the same thing they have always done.
I can't believe anyone would admit writing that buggy shit. I take my hat off to you, what a set of balls.
What is the proportion of people who's job is, or includes, writing software, and whose income does not come directly or indirectly from licencing that software, to those whose salary comes directly from licence fees ? I can think of so many reasons why a company or any other kind of organization would pay someone to write software that are unrelated to licencing that software...
OMFG! You're kidding!
Seriously, who the hell do the editors think is reading this stuff on /.
Next we'll see stories like 'This just in: Linux is an OS' or 'MS promotes Windows (which runs on a computer)'.
I believe that one reason they use the word "ecosystem" is probably because it is associated with "nice" things. You are supposed to feel a warm fuzzy feeling when Bill mentiones his wondeful "ecosystem". Of course, I'm not buying it... :)
And I _do_ go home and write Free Software at night.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Shouldnt research paid for by the goverment fall into the public trust / public domain and be subject to GPL? Theres too much taxpayer funding of private enterprise, why should we all pay for what only a few people profit from? I suppose creating jobs is a good arguement for government subsidy of business, but how far do we take that?
It's pretty obvious that the government can't fund/subsidize proprietary software (except for military purposes), because it's the public's money they're spending, so the public deserves to get the code their money was spent on. The question is which open source license it should be under. The way I understand it is that there are two points of view on this.
BSD style license
Licensing it under a BSD style license will make it easier for various companies to take the code, extend it and then sell it back to the public. The downside is that unless the stuff added wes important and significant, or the company makes sure to charge proportionally to it importance, the public is paying twice for the same software. The upside is that in order to develop those extensions, the companies will have to hire developers, giving back to the public, in a way. Obviously, however, the amount money spent on those developers will be less than what the company intends to charge. So in the end, the public usually ends up paying less than twice, but definitely more than once for that software.
GPL
With the GPL, the public basically says "We've payed for this software. You want to use it? You'll have to pay for it too, in the form of showing us any extensions you decide to make". This way, there's no way to screw the public and make them pay again for software they've already payed for. On the other hand, that software is then much less likely to be used commercially, so any extensions might not end up getting developed at all.
Since I don't tend to trust companies (especially not Microsoft) to charge properly for adding a pretty button to software I payed for and then selling it to me, I prefer the GPL, but it's obvious that both licenses have their advantages and disadvantages in this scenario.
That's it. Basically saying if govmt funds GPLed projects then everyone will be a poor stupid farmer or something... ridiculous...
Seriously, are there any government leaders who read this and think Gates sincerely cares about what he says and isn't just trying to expand his monopoly and bank accounts? Does Gates really think he's fooling anyone or is he just keeping up a good press image while handing Senator So-n-so an envelope full of cash until the table? He can't possibley believe what he's saying, can he? He's not stupid, just terrified of competition. I can only imagine he sits in his office with his team of marketing pros and asks "Okay, boys, how can we convince the world that it's better to give me their money rather than use something that's not only free, but more reliable as well?" Why the hell doesn't somebody in the government speak up and say that Gates is only concerned with attaining more money and doesn't care at all about that "eco-system" crap? I guess it's so obvious that no one of intelligence needs to.
I might be completely wrong, but any reaction, both positive or negative, from comercial companies has little effect on the GPL in general and GPL-ed software in particular.
For the past few years, GPL software has caught the attention of the masses. That includes big and small companies, knowledgeable users and complete newbies and even governments throughout the world. This has all started in 98 (or thereabouts), when Netscape released their source code for Navigator under the NPL. Since then, many other companies have followed suit, but without a very big impact (IMO, of course)
IBM seems to be the greatest Linux supporter so far. But most of the patches they are contribuing to the kernel are targeted solely towards their equipment (mainframes in particular). It almost does not impact myself, a lowly PC user. And it's in IBM's best interest that Linux should run on their hardware. At some point in time, they can simply give up their expensive to develop and maintain OS, and switch to Linux, which costs them a fraction of the cost. All the publicity they're pouring into Linux is targeted at getting people to accept Linux as a viable alternative.
SGI contributed their journaled file system. It's great, but it's still not completed. Reiserfs and ext3fs are far more advanced, and from what I've seen, are the preffered choices. RH with ext3fs, SuSE with Reiserfs. No distro that I'm aware ships with SGI's JFS(?). Again, no real impact on my computing experience.
Sun also wanted to released their StarOffice under GPL (or similar, I can't remember) for Linux. Then they decided to keep the source to themselves, and have OpenOffice available. Along with it, there's KOffice, SOffice, and the Gnome office apps (abiword, gnumeric, etc). I'm not counting WordPerfect, since I'm not sure if it's offered anymore by Corel. None are greatly successful, save maybe for StarOffice.
The only app that is wildly successful, and that came from a particular company is Mozilla. Not Netscape itself, but Mozilla. In Windows more people are using Netscape6.2, but under Linux very few do. But there are options to it too, Konqueror being the most proeminent, and Opera.
Those were _some_ of the positive attitudes from different companies. There are others, which I'm not going to list right now. Those ones suffice for my point.
The negative views come mostly from one source: Microsoft. But I don't see it affecting Linux as a whole, not more that it affected it in the past, when M$ was ignoring the GPL and Linux. They're lobbying governments to continue using M$ software and to stay away from Linux. And yet I don't see too many governments switching over to Linux. Those that do, would do it anyways, because of completely different reasons than the ones M$ is selling (costs, stability, non-dependence on one foreign vendor, etc).
My point (finally) is that no matter what action a certain company or government take vis-a-vis the GPL and Linux, it will not affect the movement to a great degree. True, it might advance it at a greater rate, or it might hinder it a bit. But as a whole, it will keep going. Linux will get better, nu matter if IBM contributes patches or M$ bans its use by the governments. As long as there are people who are willing to contribute their code under the GPL, there is nothing any entity can do to stop this.
So lets stop worrying what M$ might do. Many people, myself included, are going to keep running and supporting the GPL software, no matter what happens. I like the freedom it gives me far more than any incentive M$ could offer for me to give it up.
If my tax dollars pay for the development of software or other "intellectual property," I want to be able to get at it (unless, of course, there's national security concerns). And I don't want anyone to be able to take the fruits of that labor and build on top of it while offering nothing in exchange back to me, the taxpayer who funded it. In fact, I've been intending for some time to write to my elected representatives to have them introduce legislation mandating that the fruits of federally funded research must be returned to the public, with obvious exceptions for national research, etc. That means that university research funded by the feds cannot be patented and hoarded by the professors who decide to go private without their compensating me in some way. That may mean a GPL-style license or paying back some of the investment. But it probably really means something I haven't thought of.
You have a choice: tax and spend Democrats, or borrow and spend Republicans. Choose wisely.
Georgia Tech University and private companies were apparently infected. Norton did not work against this version of Klez until this afternoon. Computers running Linux (and OS-2, OSX) were safe here. Windows users cannot depend on antivirus software when a new version of a virus comes out. ... or run Linux.)
(Also, many users could learn to be more careful
It is a very bad idea to let the economy depend on IT related jobs. The US already has an abysmall deficit in the balance of payments, which basically means they've been buying on credit to the rest of the world for years.
You get money from licencing fees as long as other countries want to pay. It's nothing like having oil, or arable land, or a young workforce. IP is shit, worthless. Look at AIDS medication, and how fast the pharmac hat to bow to public opinion pressure to discount their drugs to poor countries.
It's amazing how the head of such an institution can argue that competition, capitalism, and free markets are good. Mr. Gates: if those values are so good, do the right thing: break up your company. Competition and free markets only exist when there are many small players.
What Gates really wants is an unregulated market so that he can continue to monopolize it, just like the robber barons and oil magnates of the early 20th century.
wtf is an ecosystem? I thought that was in the jungle, forest, and wetlands.
Let me hear an AMEN brother!
Same thing about tobacco - don't tax it, but knock off the subsidies.
and Meat - if the goverment subsidies were removed from meat think of the public health benefits.
microsoft.com, ah, seems to not be responding. Anyone have a mirror?
(+1 ironic?)
He's right the GPL sucks! He's right the GPL sucks! He's right the GPL........................SUCKS!
"As if "the betterment of society" is a goal you can legitimately dismiss with an oh-so-casual "whatever"!"
hah...It should be dismissed with less than that...I suggest a rolling of the eyes and a slight "phht" sound...
"Of *course* making money is more important than anything as stupid as "society". Thanks for pointing that out."
'bout time someone clued you El337 L|n00X W33nEEz ion...
"Have fun writing MS code for a living. "
Have fun eating out of a can for the rest of your life...pah...loser...
Nothing prevents MS from packaging Gnome or KDE and selling it. They'd have to give out source like anyone else, and the EUL would have to allow copying. That doesn't mean they couldn't box it up and sell it though... Perhaps they'd make money too - it would be interesting to see.
"As part of Microsoft's campaign against the GPL, Bill Gates is personally coming to the front line to launch attacks."
I don't think the headline got the important bit about Gates' speech. He was there to push Microsoft's egoverment (passport) thingy into the U.S.A. goverment, and the open source question came from the delegates. He had to answer.
All his speech was about M$ having sold his egoverment stuff to UK and trying to use that as a selling point.
When asked about open source he tried to downplay the question with this "I dunno..." and jokes, like implying that the question wasn't sane, or something...
Also, he appelated to Capitalism (upercase intended) and Patriotism. Quite funny from a monopolistic multinational.
Anyways, I think the important bit is that they found a breach in the UK and they are using it to become the f*****g egoverment of the whole planet.
When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
"have fun being a slave to money. "
BWAHAHAHAAAA!!!
Have fun being a crackwhore for food...twat
he's gonna give all the proceeds from XP to the *poor countries* and *AIDS prevention* and probably stand for election ..you will have to vote through your passport id id anyway :))
> I'm convinced that amateurs are usually better at most things than professionals, for the simple reason that they care more.
> As an example: I write professionally. This is a Friday afternoon -- my productivity level is dropping toward zero. But I am taking the time to make (semi-)intelligent comments on slashdot. Why? Because at slashdot, I'm an amateur. I'm in this because I feel like it, not because I'm being paid to do it.
At first I thought your first statement was somewhat interesting but on second thought, I think you haven't given it a second thought! First of all, I know a lot of professionals who care a hell of a lot about their job -- to the point where they put in unpaid overtime. Second, your example isn't very good. You didn't specify exactly what kind of code you are writing but I would wager that the Slashdot forum stimulates your thinking in new ways more often than your job does. Again, I'm stepping out on a limb here but I'm guessing that you're probably working on some software project that will take weeks or months of the same kind of work to complete. In comparison, Slashdot changes quite a bit from day to day. The fact that your productivity drops on Friday seems to indicate that you are looking for a change (i.e., the weekend).
> OT: perhaps that's why Taco et al are so unproductive at their jobs? Because it is just "a job" for them? Hmmm... interesting concept.
I was going to make a Katz joke here but I think just dropping his name is joke enough...
GMD
watch this
"I stand for motherhood, America, and a hot lunch for orphans" - Jerry Herman, Hello Dolly
Okay, I know this is going to sound a little weird and off-beat, but as I was letting my mind wind down from the sleep-deprived state of quasi-clarity it finds itself in at 3AM the other night, I wondered something to myself.
:)
What is the legal status of source code used in publications where nothing is stated as a license, such as tutorials or instructional snippets?
I would assume the answer to this to largely depend on the medium. Is it copyrighted as part of the book or website it's published on, and is it something that can be incorporated directly into other code? I humbly (and lamely) propose a simple little trick.
Perhaps this might be a case for a new form of GPL, one designed to indicate that code is completely free for use even without keeping a license note in it. I kept thinking of calling it the EGPL for Educational GPL.
The main thing that made me think about this is the unwieldiness of including the full GPL with software if you're only looking at a 1-2K program on a webpage or a page of a book. Perhaps a statement such as...
##This code is released under the EGPL (Insert short URL to license here)
...pointed to a site where the full text (probably less than a paragraph stating that you can do whatever the hell you want, and not even need to redistribute what you do, or include the above statement) is available for perusal. This way you save the distribution hassles of a license that's a formality at any rate.
But of course, it could just be a pointless idea. Like I said, I was tired.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
Yeah, you linux tools have some nerve...unsupported shit that won't even install right...and drivers...gawd...wha?..you mean windows?!?!?
But that WORKS?!??!
Ohhhhhh...slashdot..riiiight...nevermind
...tard
I agree with Mr. Gates.
You mean, the illegal-monopoly-eco-system? So Mr. Gates is actually suggesting that other countries and their governments should adopt this type of culture to actually *foster monopoly*? Isn't that like a convicted serial killer telling all the governments around the world to start schooling their citizens on how to kill people in a certain sociopathic way? Would anyone take such advice from a felon seriously?
Why does everyone seem to overlook the fact that the ecosystem MS is so proud of has actually been deemed illegal. More interesting is the fact that even after being convicted MS seems to be even more proud of that fact. I guess who wouldn't be if the govt sucks up to them and they can get away with murder.
Gates is a smart man and he knows that GPL is a threat to Microsoft's business model. With GPL, code becomes more like math and science. For example, do I have to pay a license fee to use calculus or the Pythagorean theorem. No, and the inner workings of these are open to those who want to see it. So with GPL the business model of software simply changes to a more service oriented one and this is not really what Microsoft is tuned for right now.
Would be better off without Bill Gates, Richard Morell, Diane Feinstein, Barbra Boxer, Hollings, Sadam, Osama, and suicide bombers, and anthrax.
Other amazing thing was that he was trying to describe GPL of foreign thing but it has originated in USA and perhaps USA is the number one user of GPL.
MS gives example of bio-tech etc, but in no such field it is either recommended or enforced to commercialize the research. Whether to commercialize an invention or not is entirely individual/institution decision. He is suggesting that somehow the software is different and government should ENFORCE commercialiation by making it as a pre-condition for government funding. This is plain stupid!
I just finish reading all the comments.
Can I go do my #2 now?
spiderbait and regurgitator can go to hell, give me charlie mcmahon!
wait, were you talking about the prehistoric continent? my bad.
R&D dollars GPL'd:
:-))
:-)
:-), GPL hinders billy to steal the cake for himself. And BSD allows his competitors to sidestep him.
GPL'd research might be troublesome for spin-off companies. But that also depend if you interface to the GPL'd thing OR modifies it.
No taxes from operating system:
Well who pays the licenses then? huh huuh
It's a question of focus ON the software or what you can do WITH it. Besides there are things like support and maintaince. And that people actually wants to do additional tasks that they didn't yeasterday.
"He further suggests that source code availability is not generally needed, and when it is needed, Microsoft provides it."
Yeah right, ever stumbled on a bug being unable to fix it. To just experience a long wait while your business is open for DoS or theft?
Or being provided with source to fiddle with new functionality? *dream on*
"capitalism" or "should copy the system in the US (where Microsoft has an monopoly):
Means he wants to extend his abuse of the free market capitalism. And that microsoft should be able to buy up innovative companies and shut them down. Or impair the innovation.
"campaign against the GPL,":
He tells you that GPL'ing is his #1 enemy!
This means the current model with GPL + BSD. Is awesome
He's enemy.. your friend?
VSB,BFP:
Intention.. create FUD. Period.
As long as M$ is alive. They set the agenda! Let's finish it. GPL + BSD, warez his key programs, tell the truth, Make your library buy BSD & Linux books, make the free experience good and convince ppl to use it! Brain share is vital.
When Billy is gone. IT-industry will flourish!
And is scared shitless...
:-) And dual licensing works of course as well.
GPLd source is the only software engine that can stand up to Microsoft, because it cannot be stopped by the occasional business failure or frivolous lawsuits.
If governments start to seriously fund that engine, it would put some serious power behind that already significant competitor.
And don't be confused... Gates isn't for BSD licenses for any good reason, just because it suits Microsoft.. they can steal all their ONLY COMPETITOR's hard work, and give nothing back. Screw that... if someone wants to close a branch of open source they just need to plunk down some cash and dual license it.
Microsoft's true stripes? Close source BSD networking, Mosaic browser (basically, leach-embrace-and-extend), and fucking us over on CIFS which they actually pushed some time back as the "Common Internet File System" but which is now basically a non-public spec. [I say this means, as the technical community we take OUR ball and go home... we were willing to play nice and interoperate with SMB, but I guess we'll just have to replace anything networking with SMB]
We'll figure out how to make money and not go back to the farm. It's already happening:
http://www.linuxfund.org
I think that's the way it will go, but on more of a microdonation system, ala public radio or public TV model. Pacifica being the purest example of course
IT companies are not required to distribute source unless they distribute binaries outside of their organization. For most IT projects, this is not a barrier. Software companies, like Microsoft, are obviously impacted.
To a shark, you are just another food choice...
Only PCs. Actually only 686 PCs with DRM hardware. Except maybe for a few embedded processors running crippled, dumbed down versions of IE and WMP (which doesn't even do MP3, and that is not GPLed).
In a Microsoft ecosystem, innovation is an endangered specie.
Bill Gates is Not a Stupid Man Neither was Adolt Hitler, and he fucked a few million people over too. Was going to to do a one testicle simile also but that would be beyond the realms of good taste.
It's clear to me that he is lying his ass off, but there is still a message that is MS biased.
So what is Bill really saying?
XP is Vapoware! Muahahahahaha!!!
Gates is no capitalist.
Well, here is a story for you about how much is Mr. Gates on the ball...
I proposed some web development ideas to my friends back in Hungary, about 8 years ago. Initially they were excited, but then Bill Gates visited Budapest and he had a meeting with business leaders. There he told about the Internet that it was not a serious thing, it was for students to fool around.
Since then I can't help but laugh when I hear Mr. Gates' innovative views.
And so that excuses Micros~1's ethical bankruptcy?
"I suppose, if everyone else jumped off the Empire State Building, you would have to jump off the Empire State Building."
As we move into a future where interconnected computers and ephemeral digital bits will become critical to everyday life, it is absolutely crucial that the architects of this future are people of good character and integrity. Micros~1 is the very antithesis of this. Because they are at the beginning of this future, and because of their size and "success", their ethical lapses are magnified by a couple of orders of magnitude. Even if Micros~1 were to vanish tomorrow, undoing the damage they've done to date would take decades.
Regardless of the magnitude of their "success" and the "shareholder value" they've created, it does not change or excuse the fact Bill Gates displays all the character and integrity of a spoiled brat. He needs to be put over someone's knee posthaste.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Meanwhile, Groucho Marx is probably cracking up!!!
Can I get an eye poke?
Dog House Forum
We should just go home and
1) Take envelope
2) Put all our money inside
3) Send it to M$
4) Be happy since nice mr. gates explained us why they're good
He's right... if the goal of a nation is to have a software industry at the expense of farming. If the goal is to have plentiful software that people can use, then that's another story. Gates understands how to be a capitalist, but he doesn't understand capitalism and the allocation of resources.
Remember, he wouldn't be arguing against Free Software if it weren't so effective.
But you are not an ideologist anymore. Not a spokesman of the future. You are Big Brother and the System now. Once you fought against the System, now you are part of it yourself. Please stay out of our ideology.
War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left.
R&D dollars GPL'd:
:-))
:-)
:-), GPL hinders billy to steal the cake for himself. And BSD allows his competitors to sidestep him.
GPL'd research might be troublesome for spin-off companies. But that also depend if you interface to the GPL'd thing OR modifies it.
No taxes from operating system:
Well who pays the licenses then? huh huuh
It's a question of focus ON the software or what you can do WITH it. Besides there are things like support and maintaince. And that people actually wants to do additional tasks that they didn't yeasterday.
"He further suggests that source code availability is not generally needed, and when it is needed, Microsoft provides it."
Yeah right, ever stumbled on a bug being unable to fix it. To just experience a long wait while your business is open for DoS or theft?
Or being provided with source to fiddle with new functionality? *dream on*
"capitalism" or "should copy the system in the US (where Microsoft has an monopoly):
Means he wants to extend his abuse of the free market capitalism. And that microsoft should be able to buy up innovative companies and shut them down. Or impair the innovation. Infact Micro$oft is Communism. And I thought USA was the free market economy.
"campaign against the GPL,":
He tells you that GPL'ing is his #1 enemy!
This means the current model with GPL + BSD. Is awesome
He's enemy.. your friend?
VSB,BFP:
Intention.. create FUD. Period.
As long as M$ is alive. They set the agenda! Let's finish it. GPL + BSD, warez his key programs, tell the truth, Make your library buy BSD & Linux books, make the free experience good and convince ppl to use it! Brain share is vital.
When Billy is gone. IT-industry will flourish!
The biggest customer of Mickeysoft products in the world is Lockheed-Martin. They and other defense companies have had it with the hassle and unreliability of windows (expense doesn't really factor into it) and are looking hard at Linux.
If Mickeysoft's government market dries up the company will basically implode. Microsoft is laying the groundwork for a law to deny gov't purchasing agents the option of using GPL'd software.
- Night
Gates: I'm the richest man on Earth, made all my money from the software business, and I'm asking you all to develop software in such a way as to make me, an *American*, even richer.
World: Riiiiiiiiiiight.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
Do code FreeBSD so we can steal you code afterwards, just like we did that with TCP/IP stack, well it worked well for us.
P.S. We'd really need some new coders but paying them is not our idea.
P.P.S. Please do avoid GPL, we haven't found the way to steal that yet
signed
Mr. Gates
GPL software is like this thing called Linux, where you can never commercialize
What about RedHat?
Anyway, last time I checked not all of the world was commerce... Farmers may want to write code because they like the process, or just because they want that thing to do this. Try putting the Start menu on the right of the taskbar... And then, why not share what you wrote?
Copyright (c) ,
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All rights reserved.
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
* Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
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* Neither the name of the nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
* Microsoft, Inc. and its subsidiaries must pay royalties to the value of 110% of the retail price of any product which includes source code derived from this software to the
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I can't help but wonder if Microsoft was helped by the open information provided by IBM. Didn't IBM publish a "purple book" or something?
$cat
wait till we see the stuff he spouts from the witness stand next week when he takes the stand for the first time in the 4 year trial
My theories on why his speech is so choppy:
1- He uses XP, and the "ghost in XP" randomly inserted his mutterings into his speech as he typed it using MS Word
2- He used XP's voice recognition to write his speech in MS Word, and this is as good as it gets
3- He used MS Word, and hit "accept all" when he went to do the grammar check
4- (Most probable IMHO) He thinks he is smart enough to speak in front of world leaders totally unprepared, and ad-libbed the entire speech on the fly
(Whoops, should have used the preview before that last post!)
Copyright (c) [YEAR], [OWNER]
All rights reserved.
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
* Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
* Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
* Neither the name of the [OWNER] nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
* Microsoft, Inc. and its subsidiaries must pay royalties to the value of 110% of the retail price of any product which includes source code derived from this software to the [OWNER].
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
Enough already - who cares about the fact that BG is a BD when it comes to business! The fact of the matter is we all have choices!!! lf you don't want MS then don't use it and spend your time evangelizing to those who "need" it! Here we are preaching to the choir. Take your mom's pc and install Linux/Unix, take your Aunties pc and do the same! Alas - who cares what BG thinks we know he is a self-serving F*** who could give a damn about creativity. Just maybe I would give a thought to anything he has to say if he didn't produce such inferior products. He is the virus problem, not the hackers/crackers or whatever you want to call them. Summary this is just more BS, from BG the BD, and who cares what he has to say. Lets stay focused and act rather than whine. As I said, everyone grab their mothers/fathers/aunties and unclies computers dual boot it , w the default to **nix and get them up and running to a new world of computing and then lets see how big bad and important Window from microsuck seems to be!!!!
Please mod the parent redundant. Everybody already know this stuff.
Pop quiz: Should the British Govt have let Marconi go bust and lose a world class, booming defence+consumer elctronics company (until recently)?
What is CRM? What is Knowledge Management? It's real life borg, taking knowledge of employees away and storing it in a multi-dimensional cube database, sapping their tacit knowledge. All employees will be trivially sackable, nudge nudge wink wink give me a genetic sample otherwise we can fire you in a second - your entire job activities are stored in SQL server. If you're fired all you'll ever add up to is a footnote is some computer's database (Episode 18 Assessment TotalRecall2070)
I've watched businesses, and 10% is the software product, and 90% is HOT AIR sales, managers, procurement, accountants whose job it is to just speak trash, to trash.
If GPL software was good enough to replace all commercial software, this would happen to all companies:
R&D: Free GPL software available => sack all software developers, except for superficial adaptation - file formats, couple of extra features.
IT Support: IRC support and official Redhat.com are a lot cheaper than Microsoft => fire all IT support. Worldwide KM system can take over, since everyone uses the same apps (free GPL)
Sales: Free software => everybody in Sales is fired. CRM apps makes top Sales into a $2/hour hire-fire job
Procurement: Shrink-wrapped software is available free => procurement costs and jobs only monitor downloading of (ftp://xxxx/file.exe).
Marketing: Web designer does this job, KM system augmented with AI learns his job and fires him.
Managers: Fire 99% of them, KM can make these jobs into $2/hour hire-fires
Accountants: Not required, see above (zero profit, zero loss, zero tax), etc.
So the death of commercial software takes all those hot air sales+manager people with it. Has anyone stopped to think that maybe free software (which the GPL seems to be very condusive to) is the cause of the dotcom crash, and we all wrongly blamed it on Wall Street and Venture Capitalists?
In the Industrial revolution, mechanical engineers were in high demand, then they foolishly designed and built production lines that would automate and therefore remove their own jobs, they dug their own grave, placed themselves in a coffin, lowered themselves, and dynamited the grave shut. Are we doing the same?
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
I think I understand one thing that Bill Gates & Co. is bitter about. Microsoft and its 20,000+ employees pay $billions in taxes every year, a portion of which is used by various governments to sue Microsoft for even more money, and at the behest of their competitors (in exchange for "campaign contributions") no less!
:-).
Just to add insult to injury, they're facing one hell of a competitive threat from open source crews who are giving away software, ie, not paying taxes!
Yeah, I know, the people who use the software still chip in. But Red Hat ain't exactly coughing up $gigabucks to the taxman.
I suspect he's wondering why these Democrat AG's can't figure this out.
It's one of the things I like about open source
All money and taxes to Microsoft!
#1) I don't care what license software development (government or otherwise) is done in. GPL, BSD, or closed-source. If some piece of software leads towards somewhere interesting, and the license is unusable for your purposes, then re-write the software. A guy named Linus did this, once.
#2) How many companies start from government-funded research? How many do not? Whatever the percentage, I'm banking that it's not 100%. This is not the 'thin edge of the wedge/slippery slope' opening salvo that some are making it out to be. Were Gates' comments to be immediately implemented (which I doubt), I don't imagine the impact would be too terribly heavy.
Gates is just saying something that will benefit his company, and harm his enemies. What else is new?
if your universities are doing work that can be commercialized, you will have IT jobs in your country.
You mean like TCP/IP and email? Of course! Commerce means trading goods, be it money for money, product for product, or a mix.
Does commerce exist when you trade US$ 0 for a product? Yes! It's called the gift society, and among us open source developers, the product is knowledge.
Not flying around through windows, since in our enviroment there are no walls, therefore, windows are useless.
IT jobs are NOT important. What's is important, for any country, is the well-being of their citizens. It's a simple matter of choice.
And you know, I mean, M$ doesn't provide choices and <insert Slashdot zealots comments to continue>.
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
The reporter didn't get this quite right.
Help fight continental drift.
As I continue to listen to his rants against Linux/GPL and his "Intelectual Property" ideals on the world, his tone sounds increasingly screechy and shrill.
Perhaps this stuff is really having an effect on him. After reading the Wired article about the trial, I was struck by the notion that he REALLY believes that what he has done is right. That what he thinks is right. That his company has ALWAYS been right. That the big old mean government is prosecuting him for his success.
Now....with GPL....We're all out to take his fortune away and break everything that he believes in.....Mostly that money buys power and that NOTHING should be free and that he's god because he has the most money.....I can just see him wandering the halls at MS...talking to himself about those "evil GPL people...out to get all my money....must hide my precious..."
The nerve of those GPL people....next thing we'll be taking the emperor's clothes right off his back!
Mr. Policy Maker,
Thanks for supporting the monopoly in US so that someone can even think about proposing this in the free market economy. Supporting this move is most important for you to protect US business. It is really beyond the capability of 'PAID' US programmers to write good code under supervision of visionary 'Business People'. So they ( the programmers ) cannot compete with rest of the world programmers anymore, so yep ! close on open source and GPL and all other free thinking available anywhere.
Next step will be protecting software industry like the way you are protecting stee--where inefficient process and hard Labour union is taking the productivity down the tube.
Thanks for the Enron scandal - now we know how exactly billion doller fuck up looks like. May be you should be looking there other than looking in these petty little things called GPL/Linux etc.
Looks like this country is catching it's last straw. Most of the countires kind of started to "... you" to US--including the old friend in the middle east.
Well as we used to say in the old country
"If Russia falls can US be far behind
but your enemies even closer... M$ should be the experts on how the open source business model (and the projects/companies that are part of it) is working, as they are trying to fight it.
Gates argues that free software can exist, but should be like a free unix called "VSB" (probably a transcription error for BSD), without the GPL around it.
That's all I have to say.
Just to point something out...
:)
RMS wasn't entirely wrong when talking about building particle accelerators in space to use the free vacuum. While they mighn't be building any particle accelerators, there are other plans to build extensive research projects in space exactly because of this free vacuum. LIGO, a project ongoing in the united states to detect gravity waves has 4 kilometer long vacuum tunnels in it's experimental setup, and one of the major problems they face is the need for a vacuum inside these tunnels. There are plans to create a gravity wave detector in space for the very reason of free vacuum.
So, RMS isn't totally retarded.
pmj.
Are you BioCurious?
Free software prodoce more software. Gimp has spawned hundreds of software. Havent heard of users of photoshop doing the same. I cant belive the president of Brasil inked an agreement with such guys, and closed the popular computer (based on linux) because of BS like THESE!
Et cetera, et cetera.
Of course, genes, drugs and lasers only get patent protection for 17 years, after which the public gets the rights to the invention that they funded. Meanwhile, software copyrights are approximately infinite. (Ask Mr. Lessig if you need to know the details.) Ironically, as the term of software copyright grows longer and longer, the public has more incentive to require that all government-funded software projects be released under the GPL.
The more you tighten your grip, Mr. Gates, the more Star Wars quotes will slip through my fingers.
Taxes? What taxes? Those which would be otherwise paid by Microsoft?
~shiny
WILL HACK FOR $$$
Mr. Gates says "that for a few percent of the price of the PC you can buy a commercial operating system". Last I checked prices, we were buying computers for NASA or for the university at $1000-$1500 each. Assuming a low $70 license fee for Windows, that's 5-10%. So his 'few percent' is a bit too fuzzy for my tastes.
_Maybe_ that's a few percent. But add in any useful software (Office, say) and suddenly, you're starting to have a software budget that is at least 50% of the computer cost. And you know, computers do need software to do anything.
And if you buy MS's suggested levels of support, you're spending more than 5% on just the OS. He doesn't mention that, but they have their sales force push it. So we'll count that as hypocrisy, on top of fuzzy numbers and inaccurate statement of what computers need.
So it's disingenious for him to first get vendors to bundle in Windows and pass the cost along to the consumer as a hidden fee, then suddenly say "the OS is just a few percent" and neglect the utility of the entire computer.
His talk is scary propaganda.
A.
Bill's analogy sucks, but your defense of the (supposed) hoards of farmers/programmers isn't any better.
First of all, I'd bet most of the people who write open/free software are professional developers, in which case you (and Bill) really can't call them amateurs. They do it on the side for fun, but they're still professionals.
Why is this? Because there aren't many people who are talented enough to be professional programmers but aren't. The pay is simply too good. Why break your back farming if you can program for a living and make twice as much money?
-- Brian
The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
A little idea I've been toying with is the idea that software should share the "ecosystem" of any us invention. We do have trade secrets and everything, but once the secret is out, your SOL. HOw about we create a patent for software? You patent your source code meaning that you must submit it to the US patent office for all to see. Once its submitted, anyone may look at it but no one else may use it for profit for the duration of the patent. A little like GPL, but with a twist.
13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
I guess the problem lies in this that if Linux/GNU ...
was not GPL-ed then Microsoft could save itself a lot of time - just get the ready, tested solutions,
copy it into their own and voila! Everything Linux
has Windows have as well! I guess it is much harder
for them to compete if they have to do work on their own.. Luckily they were able to use BSD stack
+ a lot of other fee stuff in Windows code even
not mentioning the authors
Kubus
Why should MSFT pay taxes to fund its competition? Even if MSFT doesn't pay a dime in taxes, why should the government compete with MSFT? If the government can arbitrarily decide to compete with a business, what is the point of going into business? It's very discouraging to think I might someday build a business, only to have the government confiscate it because a bunch of Leftists are all in a snit.
Also, the government doesn't pay for anything. Taxpayers pay for it.
And I don't want to hear any whining here about how no-one will bother extending or improving the software if they can't profit from it. The entire history of Linux and other GPL'ed software has proven that theory wrong...
No. It's proven them right. The non-GPL'd BSD consistantly outperforms Linux; especially in security. GPL advocates often point to Apache (either due to ignorance or intentional deception), but that isn't GPL'd. It isn't even copylefted. Perl was originally Artistic only, not copylefted. It was only dual-licensed with the GPL due to community pressure. The gcc compiler keeps most free *NIXs hobbled at lower performance levels due to its subpar optimization. Non-copylefted Open Source consistantly attracts better developers for a very good reason: The better developers want to keep their options open, and that includes the option to release proprietary versions.
You are right up to a point. The GPL doesn't discourage every other journeyman coder or college student from contributing. Real engineers with real funding however, have better things to do with their time.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
"or run linux"
A stupid user with linux is just as dangerous.
The trick is not to download attachments at all. 99% of the time I find attachments are viruses anyways [from dorks who get infected and are spamming me non stop]. I simply ignore all attachments all together.
Anyways my bigger point is that an idiot who runs anything is dangerous behind the wheel of Linux just as much as windows.
Also any properly setup windows box will only allow their box to be compromised not the network. Only data should be shared not apps [or they should be a from a RONLY mount].
Its all a matter of setting up your network properly. I mean if you allow anon FTP access to your website, run no firewall and give RW access to all of your network binaries, obviously you're up for trouble.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
If us taxpayers are going to pay universities to write innovative software, we (the people who paid for the creation of that software) would like that software to remain in the public domain.
Gates, on the other hand, opposes the GPL because he wants to enable himself and others to make money on the backs of students who work at the expense of taxpayers. Is there some reason that I should be sympathetic here?
As Gates is reportedly fond of saying, that's the stupidest idea I've heard all week.
Build stuff. Stuff that walks, stuff that rolls, whatever.
Do you really think, even after Microsoft spent one month (are they done yet?) fixing whatever security bugs they know of, a Windows server can't be mechanically cracked by a compromised client behind the firewall?
I'm not backing Microsoft, but they are not ethically bankrupt. If noone ever made money on computers, they wouldn't be in 1/10th of the places there in today. You have MS and others to thank for even hearing the word computer.
I am saying that no other company has a site dedicated to losers posting "dirt" against them. Except EXXON and a few other planet killers: truly bad companies.
I find it amusing that your post got a score of 3 from another burger-flipping "moderator". 3 being on the scale of 1-5; the level of anti-microsoftness instead of the level of intelligence.
This site has the reputation it does because of clones like you. Open source, free everything, tree-hugging hippies.
Get real.
"Failure of Windows operating systems is extremely rare. If it happens, it is usually due to operating system file c
I make money supporting GPL'd software. I know of tens of thousands of others like me.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Government funding of software development should mandate public domain release so that the code is completely unencumbered. Making it GPL or allowing the sponsored developer to keep it closed are equally undesireable alternatives that only serve to block some people from using it.
I suppose that this is the gist of Mr. Gates argument, and it is wholly false. Nothing is keeping ANYONE from using GPL software, modifying it to suit their purposes and redistributing their changes. Businesses can, are and will continue to chose GPL software when it's appropriate. Peopel will take government funded GPL'd software and improve and develop it. Most GPL's software is superior to closed source software for this very reason. The size and quality of Debian shows that the GPL does just as well or better than BSD as a developement model. The only businesses that won't be able to use governement funded GPL software are those who wish to deprive the rest of us of our rights to do what we want with our computers. Those kinds of people desrve to lose out this way. In the mean time, they are just as free as you and me to use GPL'd software.
The goal of government sposnsored research is to develop technology that people can use. It's not to create a franchise that one or two companies can use to screw the rest of the word and impeed the use of that research.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
...hear me out before you mod me down.
How many companies based exclusively on GPL are consistently profitable? Okay, RedHat finally turned a profit, but only barely and with a few accounting tricks. And, they no longer sell open source software exclusively. The problem is, you can't really improve on GPL software without releasing your improvements, and if you release your improvements, where's your competitive advantage?
Contrast with Apple's OS X. Yes, they use BSD as the "infrastructure" part of the OS, but they can also add their proprietary work on top of it, and sell it profitably. And, at the same time, they contribute back to BSD. I can see perfectly well why canny businessmen like Jobs and Gates would prefer a BSD license to a GPL license. You could think of it as analgious to driving your car on a public road. The road is paid for by everyone, and everyone has a right to use it. But your car is private property, only you can direct how it's used. How would you feel about having to "open source" your car simply because you were driving it on a public road?
Which is why I think, ultimately, Linux will have a limited success. Not that it isn't a great OS, but it just isn't profitable for a software company to invest in, unless you're also a hardware company like IBM, HP or Sun. But I could see sometime in the future, Microsoft, like Apple, releasing an OS based on BSD. In fact, I'd be surprised if they eventually didn't. Why not? Like Apple, they could take advantage of an existing infrastructure, add their own improvements (okay, embrace and extend, but really, what's wrong with that? It's smart business.) along with the Windows interface/API and bam! They immediatly have access to markets which have previously been denied them. Not to mention, they'd be able to take advantage of the huge codebase of both Windows and Posix/Unix applications. Just recompile and off you go. Sounds like a winner to me.
Well, good god man. If you're so damn influential get off your butt and get your silly idea passed into law!.
Microsoft loathes the idea that they cannot sell a piece of software and keep control of it. This impossibility is why they hate the GPL so much that they have resorted to lying (although that's their forte) about it by claiming that GPL licensed software cannot be commercialized. Microsoft does not understand that the point of software -- the point of any technology, really -- is not to make money off of it but to bring it into people's lives to better our standards of living.
Gates is getting really desperate and he's starting to talk nonsense. Good. Soon he will end up saying he supports terrorism against opensource and will be transferred to Guantanamo. :D
Bill Gates' speech didn't sound like he was the leader of "Ecosystem"... more like Pauly Shore from "Biodome." ;^)
If you saw Frontline last night (on what's happened to meat production in this country), the thought "feedlot" comes to mind.
As in "a cow doesn't see a blade of grass after the age of 6 months." (That cow is slaughtered by age 14 months. It used to be 5 years, but changes in feed cause the animals to mature much more quickly. Sorta like how humans are hitting puberty much earlier now.)
And "that's not black soil the cows are standing (and sleeping) on, that's a thick layer of manure."
And even the later statistics that modern meat processing techniques mean that a single hamburger patty may contain meat from hundreds or even thousands of animals. If *any* of these animals are infected, you'll get sick.
All in all, a pretty good model of the "ecosystem" Gates had in mind. Not the rich diversity of a natural forest which can withstand most challenges, but an industrial agriculture monoculture where a single case of hoof-and-mouth disease (or a single virus) can take out hundreds of thousands of animals at once. Or a single blight can take out an entire state's produce.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
[talking about generating jobs and commercializing it] There's a faction against that, the so-called general GPL source license free software foundation, that says that these other countries other than the U.S. should devote R&D dollars in the so-called open approach, that means you can never commercialize that software.
Hey Bill ... NO THERE ISN'T ... even in the US, we can devote R&D to software.
AND you CAN commercialize it ... the best example is SUSE. Yes, the do give the sources (GPL), but they don't give their distribution of Linux away for free. You must purchase at least 1 copy. However, they do create a demonstration for free.
Red Hat? Ever hear of these guys? They make a distribution of Linux, and they will give it away for free, including sources (GPL). The portion they charge for is support.
You, Mr. Bill, get downright nasty if there is just 1 license out of order. And you're company makes false law claims about the licenses as well. You (and Windows) is the insidious virus that needs to be controlled.
[too bad BG doesn't read /. ... my comments go to the choir]
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
I may have certain opinions about people who want to get compensated for all their code, but that shouldn't keep anyone from doing whatever the hell they want to do.
Question: what do you mean when you say that your code is "free [as in choice], not free as in [free beer]"? My tiny little brain hurts, because it thinks "free as in freedom" implies "free as in beer".
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
While you can dismiss Bill Gates' words, things are not that simple. Microsoft is, in addition to FUD, taking legal steps to attack Free Software. The recent CIFS license is an example, and more may be coming. Microsoft can attack with patents and "technical standards", and that can significantly impact Free Software. We can dismiss the FUD, but we cannot ignore Microsoft--we need to watch their every move. This is a war.
Free Software: the software by the people, of the people and for the people. Develop! Share! Enhance! Enjoy!
If I'm giving money to the government, and they turn around and spend that money to help develop software, then I sure as hell deserve a piece of it! I helped to pay for it's existence, therefore I believe that I own a piece of it. If the government spends the money on a corporation to help them develop software that they are going to turn around and charge me for, then I am being charged twice for the same software!
Consider this - a for-profit company like Microsoft pays taxes, and lots of them. If they use, and profit, from government-sponsored software, the public is going to be getting a return on their investment from those taxes. In fact, I'd say the taxes from for-profit companies that have used software developed on the public nickle, such as TCP/IP and other internet technologies has returned many times the money that the public spent developing it.
That, my friend, is your piece of it.
but it seams that he used the word "like" alot.
Hmmm, how often do you have these personal conversations? Have you been taking your pills?
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Sure, well its easy to sit back and say "look how bad windows is, elite haxor ho!".
But how many servers use MSFT tools and are not hacked?
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
The FUD here is unreal, though considering the source I suppose its expected. The company I work for has had numerous problems with printing in our vb5 applications. These are all known problems which microsoft refuses to address. Their suggestion upgrade to vb6 and force your users to all use the same operations system windows 2000 or xp. Since MS will not fix bugs shouldn't I be given the source to address them myself? After MS is denying my company its ability to produce and support quality software.
Government is the abdication of your responsibility to a faceless bureaucracy. Anarchy(absence of government)is the a
That bill likes non-gpl license as MS does not respect the BSD or any other license.
They do not give the credit to BSD where it was required and they simply extended and take over any thing that is not under GPL.
Evan - needs to hit preview before submitting
Corporations just pass it on to their customers. If the government (ie, ME, MY taxes) pays for some something, I want MY say. Corporations have no right to use MY software MY taxes paid for without passing on the source to their own customers. If they want to use MY software they can pay ME back in kind.
This applies to a zillion other things too. I am really tired of universities patenting something that MY taxes paid for, then making money off royalties that I end up paying to some corporation. If some researcher uses a government (ie, MY taxes) grant to discover something, then it's MY discovery too. If researchers want to patent something or otherwise own it, they can do the research on their own time and own dime. NOT MINE.
Infuriate left and right
Oh, like winsock?
How about the near death experience of XFree86?
Hell, Bill Gates got his start by stealing a version of BASIC from dumpsters. Wanna bet he didn't later step on the toes of the real authors?
As Microsoft is a major supporter of evil laws like DMCA, every penny that M$ makes selling other people's code goes to oppress all of us. Release your code anyway you like, but don't pretend it can't be used by those who would strip you of your rights. Every user of M$ software has been stripped of their rights to use, modify and distribute modifications of the software they have. The GPL prevents the abuse of others with your code.
M$ could use GPL'd code if they wanted to, but then they would not be able to screw others. There is a pattern here. I'm not in favor of the government funding it, especially after declaring M$ an illegal monopoly in restraint of free trade.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
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under the bed and didn't like us staring back! BOO Mr. Gates!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
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I think Microsoft is scared to death of the GPL for this reason: Right now there is pretty much parity in apps between Windows & Linux. Pretty much whatever you wanna get done, you can get done on either platform. However... One day, soon, someone is going to write a *super killer app* and release it under the GPL We don't know what it is yet, but when it arrives in our future, absolutely Everyone is going to Need to have that app, regardless of what it takes. Normally, under non-GPL circumstances, if MS wrote the app, they would patent various unique algos inside of it, it would be theirs to exploit, and MS would be happy. If they didn't write the app, and another person/company held the crucial patents, MS would, as usual, just buy the company/person & MS would be happy. But if this must have app is under the GPL, and the only way they can add it under Windows is to start releasing some source, that is pretty much the end of MS as we know it. Yes, it's only one little new killer app, but consider the next one hundred years. Do you think Exxon will still be around? GM? Of course they all will be. Perhaps under different names, but they are continuing business concerns that will outlive all of us. Will Microsoft be around in 100 years? Not as a software company. It is impossible now that the concept of the GPL exists. Eventually, as they are forced to release more and more source, to add various little already GLP'd apps to their OS, Windows as a proprietary OS will be an eventual, yet inevitable impossibility. This is what freaks Bill out. The Rockafeller, Rothchild, CArnegie, etc: They all KNEW that their creation, their company, almost their *child* could potentially live on forever. Bill knows this will never happen with MS. Someday in the future, Microsoft, along with Bill, will be just a footnote in the dustbin of history.
Microsoft is really running scared. They get more goofy every time they talk about GPL and Open Source. It is probably a good sign.
It seems to me that software that is developed with public funds should not be licensed or copyrighted at all. No GPL. No BSD. It should be public domain.
I know that this is closer to what Gates is suggesting, but it seems to me that this sort of stuff should be made freely available to all to use regardless of their application.
While Gates' motives are highly suspect, the fact is that the GPL is a license that prevents many people from using code for a particular purpose. If that code were developed using funds from general revenues, I don't think that is right.
On the other hand, I would highly encourage people writing software with private funds to license code using GPL.
... seems to have said "a few well-chosen words" about the concept pushed by Gates in the article on socializing cost, corporatizing gain. Maybe it's time to /. the so-called radical left???
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How to Remove Linux and Install Windows on Your Computer (This was found under the Microsoft Security Hole support section) http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb; EN-US;q247804
And I don't want anyone to be able to take the fruits of that labor and build on top of it while offering nothing in exchange back to me, the taxpayer who funded it.
Why not? I think that the only thing required about taxpayer funded code is that it should be open to everyone. Then Bill can go and build something off of it, so can RMS and -- heaven forbid -- so can you. The point of public property is the betterment of all of the citizens - by exposing this code to everyone the government would succeed at this goal. The point of capitalism is to try and come up with something unique enough in some way that people will pay you for it. Microsoft has taken this intangible public property and made it part of something bigger and convinced many people the world round to pay for it (now, how they went about doing it might lead to a significantly different discussion).
It is hard to make an analogy to real life because with most things when a business tries to co-opt public property for something (imagine a coffee shop in a public square) they are taking up space that cannot be used by someone else and they are required to pay back into the public pot. But with software MS using pieces of BSD doesn't in any way stop anyone else from using those same pieces in some other way.
I just don't see it.
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Billy must be going license-crazy! I heard a radio ad for this "Licensing Event" this morning. I couldn't believe my ears. I mean, a meeting to discuss your Microsoft software's license status, and how to migrate licenses, etc, etc. In the radio ad, they even mentioned that they will help you make sure your licenses are all up-to-date. Yeah right - give me a break.
If they use, and profit, from government-sponsored software, the public is going to be getting a return on their investment from those taxes
My economics seem to differ from yours. You seem to think the economy is centered around the government, what goes into and comes out of government is important. By contrast, I feel the economy is centered around my wallet, what goes into and comes out of my wallet is important.
In this case I pay taxes, and the government sponsors TCP. I then pay for TCP software sponsored by the government and part of that money goes back to the government and more of it goes to some corporation.
I fail to see how having my money shared between the government and some corporation is better than me just keeping the money in the first place. Of course, I'm obviously doing something wrong considering I sweat and toil for the money I get to try and live on.
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The reason he like BSD licensing style is because it allows for embrass and extend. The Kerberos team has had to deal with MicroSoft coming in and doing this. MicroSoft does not like licensing systems like Java where the license is created to protect a standard. And MicroSoft does not like even more the GPL where if MS extends the code they have to release the source to that extend for other to reject or also have the possibly themselves of embrass and extend. MicroSoft wants a world where they can use their size to be the "standards" controllers and be the only ones that can get away with the embrass & extend game.
Did Charles Manson get to speak at the Government conference too? Or are the feds selective about which convicted criminals are allowed to lead the nation?
I think I split a gut!
The day MS licences all their software to me under the BSD licence, Bill can have all my software under BSD. As long as they try to force me to accept EULAs, they'll have to settle for my stuff under GPL. They should be glad I'm not forcing them to sign a EULA.
With me today is a representative from ScrewYou Foods(owned by Phiddip Mollis). He is here to talk about a disturbing new trend occurring all over the U.S.of A. His name is Fred Mender.
Fred: Hello everyone. Thank you for coming. I am here to today to bring to your attention a disturbing new trend in some radical segments of our society. I know you all may find this a bit shocking and difficult to believe but these radicals have been making their own salad dressing. Thats right. We are not quite sure where these financial terrorists got the list of ingredients but somehow they have managed. And they must be stopped. Think of the danger posed by these radicals.
They call themselves the FSDF- free salad dressing foundation. A truly insidious group that must be stopped by whatever means possible.
My company sells many kinds of salad dressing and we have been financially hurt by this radical unpatriotic faction.
ScrewYOU Foods has seen a remarkable decline in revenue over the past 6 months. I cannot tell you how many people have been put out of work by these socialists.
We plan to fight back by taking all recipes for salad dressing from all recipe books. Also any one buying vinegar will now be required to have a license. We will start an organization to ensure that all citizens of this great country use legitimate salad dressings made by our company. We will not stop until everyone is Clear. oops
I mean
enturbulated
no, no thats not right.
I mean uhh
----
Well thanks Fred. uh
I guess you are finished. Sorry about that folks.
Be here next week when I bring you Paul Mister who is fighting against the FICF. free ice cube foundation.
Another group interested in only one thing. The downfall of these capitalistic United States of America.
What is Bill Gates smoking? and why isn't he sharing?
Oh, right, this is Microspliff. It's probably some sort of proprietary smack.
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
All that I can honestly say to that is that if the US has such a great software ecosystem, why is there so much inbreeding?
(They've got creams for that, you know...)
Because this time we really hear it from Bill's mouth. Before, I personally assumed that that the anti-GPL stance was just something MS's lawyers put into the EULAs. Not that I expected that Bill would embrace the GPL or anything, but I didn't realize that he was personally so worked up against it. But now we know that every line of GPL software we write is a pin in a metaphorical voodoo doll of Gates. Cool.
His twisted eco-system that works so fine is filling my logs with requests for cmd.exe, root.exe, and default.ida. I guess his idea of a working ecosytem differs slightly from mine.
Of course you must remember that this speech was written by a combination of attorneys and PR flaks who have never seen a webserver log file!
I wonder how much of it just comes down to the old human core protocols of fear and envy. Bill started out as a coder, and I'm sure he thinks he's still pretty sharp. But in the Stallman/Torvalds/et al class? Bah --- he's not even in the muddy end of the pond!
And he knows it. And it rankles. How many device drivers has he written? Protocol stacks? Parsers?
Filesystems? Real coders exist in a meritocracy of earned respect. Bill can't crash that party because he hasn't the chops.
Sad, when you reflect on it. The poor sot's probably still trying to figure out where to find things in the Linux kernel source tree. And he's just too proud to ask for help.
When was the last time rabid GPLers were willing to accept any other licence that wasn't the GPL or able to be infected by GPL code?
If the rabid GPLers were unwilling to back Open Source, why should MPL, APSL, and even BSDers give a damn now?
This guy has proven time and time again, that he has no clue what makes the computer "Ecosystem" work. from the Homebrew computer club to modern day he has seen the computing phenomenon as a means for him to work out his oedipal agressions. far from the "smartest man in the world", he is a shamless robber hack, who is an agressive capitalist at best.
You don't need the source, We can deliver anything you want! Yeah, that's the ticket! It's Secure. Uhm, I mean bullet-proof! Yeah! It's made of kryptonite. And everyone will have jobs! Even my wife, Morgan Fairchild (whom I've slept with!!!). Yeah....
Somehow, I'm reminded of Tommy Flanagan
Mr. Gates is beginning to sound very Clintonesque these days. He must be very worried about VSB and Limox.
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
Actually, we need to SUE M$ for this kind of crap and we need to do it in class-action style. We need to get the FSF involved. It's about time we fired back at M$ and let them know we won't give into their garbage. I've thought about starting a class-action lawsuit against M$ myself but they have not affected my abilities to create, modify/contribute (GPL'd) free software. Until they intrude onto my rights to use/develop free software, thats when the lawsuits will fly. I'm sick of this M$ FUD and bill gates. SHUT UP ALREADY!
Everyone wants a Tux in their life.
Or at least his style is now very similar to pro-Microsoft trolls. He has to fix one mistake though -- it's not "farmers" but "dirty hippies". Maybe he thought that by insulting farmers he would be better understood, but he completely forgot that in countries that can't exploit their colonial empires like US does, it's usually pretty well understood that farming is an important part of the world's economy, much more important than anything his little scam in Redmond ever produced.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
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For many many years, to commercialize a piece of technology, NASA (and the rest of the Feds) would license (sell) the rights to that technology to companies. This is a great revenue stream.
When the Government creates a piece of software they hold the copyright to, they should both GPL it, and then turn around and sell it to Microsoft/Oracle/Genentech/Boeing with a proprietary compatible license.
For lots of dough.
Good for researchers, good for corporations, and triple plus good for taxpayers.
for Micros~1. What fucking dumbshits.
Microsoft has 40 BILLION in cash at the moment.
.NET
... We started at 4 million subscribers and ended at 8 million. We're well ahead of yahoo. We think its going to be a two-horse race. Money mag. may 2002
Spends 4.6 BILLION a year on R&D.
You lose. You have lost. Within the next 5 years GPL software will be banned from all companies and governments in the world.
Paul Flessner - Senior VP
We're hoping that connecting businesses to one another will be a huge wave, that will be a driver of what capitalism cares about: revenue and earnings growth. Money magazine May 2002
Richard Bray - VP MSN
It used to be AOL, YAHOO and MSFT
With his farmers-by-day, guerilla-coders-by-night references it's seems as though Chairman Gates is in the grip of some kind of Viet Nam syndrome where he feels persecuted by an enemy clad in black pajamas popping out of black holes in the impenetrable jungle and killing his men with near impunity.
No matter what he does he can't get rid of them. He will lash out massacreing the very people hw claims to be saving, but still the enemy multiplies. Wherever he moves his camp he is still only a few meters from enemy held territory. Why they might be right under his feet.
He will rain bombs on the jungle.
But the jungle will just grow back to harbor and breed his enemies.
He cannot win; and he's just begining to know that he knows this. It's nauseating and terrifying, like a bad dream that just deepens and deepens almost monotonously into a nightmare, isn't it Mr Gates?
The more the dreamer struggles to awake and escape his fate it seems the more stifled he is by the fine, expensive bedclothes and the tighter sleep holds him fast.
Basically, what he's saying is that the main flaw with GPL is that it's not costing someone a lot of money. Which is precisely the beef Luddites had with the machines that made cheaper goods and depressed their wages.
/. discussion that the money doesn't just disappear - it goes to other things, generating income multiples and tax revenues. Gates just doesn't get to be part of it. That's another lovely point in favor of the GPL.
Smart guy, cataclysmically stupid argument. Money not wasted on software will be spent on other, more productive investments. Someone pointed out in a previous
Erm, Voyager's been off the air for a good six months now.
Bill Gates: Spreading this knowledge is something that we are very passionate about.
ROTFL! LOL LOL LOL! Yea, thats fucking HILLARIOUS. Gates/MS, passionate about "spreading knowledge"? No, they're passionate about spreading disinformation about GPL and other free or open software. They're passionate about spreading their propaganda.
Businesses may pay taxes, but it DOES NOT COST THEM. Businesses just pass the cost of taxes on to their customers and employees. PEOPLE -- NOT BUSINESSES -- pay taxes. Any fuck who says otherwise is full of shit and just trying to find a way to rationalize corporate preferencialism.
By the way, anyone is free to USE GPL'd code. FIRST, they can use it as is, for their own needs -- with NO restrictions. SECOND, they can redevelop/improve it, provided they distribute it under the GPL license. MS is free to use GPL'ed code, so long as they distribute the prog under the GPL. *BSD is also free to do that, given they distribute under the GPL. Take note, there's NOTHING that prevents *BSD from distributing things under the GPL.
The gov't certainly should NOT fund any software or research that is not open (as in OSS) or free (as in GPL'ed software).
So the one simple rule should be that if you accept government money for your project, it MUST BE OPEN/FREE AS DEFINED BY A MINIMUM STANDARD. That is, it can either be public domain, GPL'ed, BSD'd, or any similar "license".
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Honestly, can there be more than one variation of the word "it"?
not trying to troll here...
/. crowd. do you think so many computers would be in homes right now if they were still so hard to use for the average dummy out there like back in the days of DOS? no, they would still be a geeky thing. maybe thats what you guys really want, but thats stupid. and i don't believe you guys really want that because linux users usually bash windows hard and then you can ask them "so have you played wizbang game 3 yet?" and they respond "of course! i'm in a clan on that game!" and the game only runs on windows. "but thats the only reason i have windows, i would much rather run my games on linux." but these are the same fuckers that didn't buy loki games just cause they didn't have the latest eye candy.
what if tomorrow bill gates said "fine everyone loves to bitch and complain about microsoft - fine we close our doors for good today and no longer will support any products."
i know you all think "oh linux this and that its so great" but reality is we all would lose. technology would stand still for several years. there is no denying windows and office are great products, sure they have bugs - what software doesn't? yah they are user friendly, no they don't rely on command line and knowing command line options. no the users are not leet++ because they use vi. microsoft has done a lot for the majority of the
this is why i quit going to lug meetings and pretty much can't stand any lug members, cause they are usually hypocrits. and the more i read on teh internet and see what the linux crowd is like, i dislike most of you. i ran only linux at home for around 2 years, bought linux office suites and games - i didn't rely on microsoft. but i've returned to microsoft about 3 or 4 months ago, and i love it. sure it crashes occasionaly, but not as much as people exaggerate and would lead you to believe. i like surfing the web and checking email and sending files over aim and stuff liek that which i don't have to worry about getting the latest libs or stuff like that. microsoft is here now and it works.
so in closing, fuck all you wannabe linux users. (you know i'm talking to you mr. i dual boot)
More importantly, the U.S. software ecosystem hasn't really worked all that well for anyone but Microsoft. Microsoft has the money to outspend any competitor, and they can easily crush the upstart foreign software houses. Countries that want to develop their own software industry have no choice but to foster the development of Free Software. Otherwise Microsoft will end up destroying (or purchasing) all of their software houses as well.
"There's a faction against that, the so-called general GPL source license free software foundation, that says that these other countries other than the U.S. should devote R&D dollars in the so-called open approach, that means you can never commercialize that software."
Yes, it means you can never commercialize it in the way MS wants to, to put it under the EULA. That's a good thing. Something which society creates should belong to us all, forever. It should not be allowed to be proprietized by the MS', Enron's, and Glogal Crossings' of the world. It should be forever in the commons. Just like MS, as a software developer, has, under the current system, the can control the distribution of its products, so can SOCIETY as a whole, which makes software through taxes. MS, Gates, don't like that? Fine, support an intellectual property system where the creator can't control their creation, but only be compensated.
"For customers who want source code -- universities, large customers -- we provide that. But 90-some percent of that time, that's more a -- okay, it's nice, I have it, you know, should I ever need it. That's fair. So source availability is not the big issue. That's -- you have got source availability from us and others, and it's not much needed in any case."
Really, they provide source? What he doesn't mention is that its at a huge price, and under draconian NDA agreements. Also, who's to say that individual's don't want the source code? MS Word 2000 wasn't compiled for MY computer. It may run faster if I compile it for my computer. Not only that, but witha LITTLE WEE bit of programming knowledge, I can even eliminate the useless annoying features I don't like (i.e., those stupid M&M help things, animation, etc). Source availability, not much needed? Nonsense. The entire biological community requires the source of most software packages as a bare minimum. There's only ONE major bio program which doesn't come with source, and that's PAUP; but PAUP faces stiff rivalry from PHYLIP, which does come with source.
"Then you get to the issue of who is going to be the most innovative. You know, will it be capitalism, or will it be just people working at night?"
I don't know, so far its been "the people working at night". Most major developments come from OPEN SOURCE or FREE software. More innovation has occured in Linux than any other OS, and that's Open Sourced. The world-wide-web as we know it is based on FREE OPEN SOURCED STANDARDS. What's more innovative than the net? Nothing. Nothing at all.
The simple fact of the matter is that established corporations like MS aren't good at innovation at all. Innovation is too risky for corporations. What corporations are good at is optimizing existing technologies. That makes solid business sense: its a sure bet. No technology is optimal as it is, and its a sure bet that if you pay good minds money to optimize it, it'll get optimized. Even this, however, is dubious. Has MS really optimized word processors? I've used MS Works 95 and MS Word 2000. MS Works 95 is overall better. Less annoying "correction", much faster.
Small time developers and individuals involved in open source are the most innovative.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
I once ran across an mp3 called 'gates.mp3' that was a 1/2 hour interview he gave in 1980 about copyrights. anyone know a link
No wonder his calculations are warped
That's exactly the point. People, individual people, will take the software and work on it. For-profit corporations, for the most part, will not: their only income source from GPLed software is support (& other related services), and only some categories of software result in a viable income from support.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with people working on software; there's nothing wrong with objecting to something that you, as an individual, wrote being used to enrich a company's coffers. But this isn't individuals we're talking about; this is academia, where the lion's share of the world's research takes place. And in academia the standard procedure when something is discovered or created or whatever is to publish it and release it into the public domain. If some university researchers discover, say, a particularly absorbent compound, would they publish it but add the disclaimer that they will only allow it to be synthesized in individuals' basements and that it can't be used for any commercial products? Certainly not -- they would publish the result, and leave its applications open to all. Academic research is the foundation of most of any technology-related industry, and keeping industry away from the research will seriously harm the industry.
Most GPLed software is superior to closed source software
Yes, this is tangential, but, wow, is this slashdot dogma now? It's just so patently untrue... Yes, there are a few GPLed programs that are the best of their kind. But how many? It stands to reason that superior software would be, if not the most popular, at least quite popular. I can think of very few non-niche software categories dominated by GPL software, and all the ones I can think of are on the server side. (Even on the server side, I can think of more categories dominated by non-GPL open-source software than by GPL software -- see Apache and Perl, for example.) And if you want to see inferior GPL software, you need only browse sourceforge to see piles of crappy, semi-functional code (as well, of course, as some great software). This is not to criticize the GPL as a license for individually-developed software or to say that the GPL is shitty -- it's just that it's entirely blind not to recognize that GPLed software is still a minority of both software in general and quality software.
Well, if Bill doesn't like GPL, how about LGPL? Notice he didn't mention that?
LGPL in a nutshell, creates a library. You may use the library in any way you like. The code you write that uses the library isn't affected by any GPLish license. Add on to the library, and you have to publish that...but write an app that uses it? That's fine. Sounds like a good govt. alternative to me.
But - there's why Bill fears anything GPL. Public money should go to public works. If I pay tax dollars for something to benefit the public, like public highways...well I am the public! I'd like to use it. And I'd be even happier if some company didn't come along and scoop it up and make it their own. Like how M$ copied Berkeley sockets verbatim and implemented netbios on top of it.
So with GPL, if Bill wants his own way, Bill has to write his own code. Waah. And if he uses the public roads, he has to obey the rules of the road. Double Waah. An unauthorized toll booth on a public road...is called theft.
Weaselmancer
PS: Isn't it too bad that the original Berkeley sockets aren't LGPL? Then the Samba guys would know exactly how M$ netbios shares work. See why Bill fears the GPL?
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Eco-system? Yeah, ok Bill there's a big BIG difference between your 30-year-old business model and the complex systems of biology that have been developed over millions of years of evolution.
Who hears a worried ego-centric? I do, I do!
Trolls, it must be cool to be that bored.
I don't think anyone else (myself included) has clued in on this. Release code developed at taxpayer expense simultaneously under the GPL and BSD licenses, and that would take care of the problem entirely.
A reasonable, rational solution - and one that MS wouldn't like at all, since I think the real angle here is not to ensure that government-funded software is usable by commercial entities, but to deny GPL advocates that same right.
Think about it... a good amount of open source work has been developed, and continues to be developed, in a university setting. I think that MS would love to see a situation where the US government says, essentially, "Universities that allow faculty or students to place work under the GPL will no longer be eligible to receive government funding."
Remember, from microsoft's point of view they're the standard and everyone else is 'proprietary'. You can find that kind of attitude everywhere in their lawsuits.
GPL'd software is also 'proprietary' from their point of view, but it's also such that they can't buy it (and thus make it 'standard')..
MS pay some taxes, but not enough to complain about their ecosystem being polluted by the GPL.
Please remember that Stallman created the GPL when he discovered the MIT AI lab having to pay a lot for software largely produced by the AI lab. Someone definitely ripped off the tax-payer there!
See my journal, I write things there
I wonder, if the GPL community was given a chance to express their views at the Government Leaders' Conference?
Free software levels the playing field.
Everybody has access to the same software, and how they fare depends only on their marketing skills, the quality of service and the richness of their offer.
Free software removes differences between the rich countries and the poor ones, because it gives access to the tools and technologies to everyone, regardless of their location, be it Bostson, Bangalore, or Moscow or Sydney. What they do with it depends on their intellectual capacity not the depth of their pockets.
I don't know why Microsoft is spending so much time and money on a crusade against GPL. Apparently it is easier for them to fight GPL than to learn the rules.
Jacek Artymiak
freelance consultant and writer
master of many a page
Bill Gates dropped out of college. So much for "educated". Microsoft is only number 2 or 3 of "Big Business". So much for most succesful continuing business enterprise in the history of the world.
What kind of eco-system is it when you can stab in the back any potential competition in its infancy by dangling a villa in the Bahamas under the execs's noses ?!? The only viable competition that stood any chance against the Windows empire of crap and it's technology winter was the Amiga ! Where and why did it go under ? It wasn't just bad management !!! It was very clever, self-serving, sabotage by the corporate PIGS who had an arrangement (with their conscience mainly, if they ever had one) ...
Natural selection is soluble in hard cash !
Don't forget it !
> [...] Bill Gates.
>
> This man has been educated far more [expensive] than you,has travelled the world far beyond your pathetic experiences [...]
No wonder if you get a million-dollar trust fund for your first birthday (in 1955!)
> has acquired wealth beyond your means and runs the most successful contuining business enterprise in the history of the world.
... and have good connections to the CEO of IBM when they search for an OS for the first PC
If only developing software was one of the major goals of his business!
"He further suggests that source code availability is not generally needed, and when it is needed, Microsoft provides it."
Have I missed something?!
On the Microsoft web page with Bill's speech, what the hell is the picture on the left side of the page?
It's not a beaker full of eyeballs, is it? Oh my ghod, that's sick!
Oh.
Wait.
It's just a trash basket overflowing with lightbulbs.
Well, I still don't get it.
Gates thinks of himself as a Guru of the industry whose ideas should be followed and never questioned. Well in his defense it isn't easy to drop out of college start your own business and make it one of the largest computer companies yet. However I don't think I need to point out to the slashdot crowd that Bill's climb to the top wasn't for his l33t skillz or even for his own ingenious ideas. He merely borrowed ideas from other companies where he could get away with it. Acquired software from individuals who had something worthwhile yet were unable or unwilling to market the product. Last but not least Gates never hesitated to make advantageous deals with companies who produced something he needed, but at the time couldn't produce himself.
Bill Gates is a shrewd businessman who likes computers, nothing more. Now I know this is a little preaching to the converted, but Businessmen play the money game, and money makes people eccentric in the extreme and Bill Gates is no exception. Here's pictorial proof right here.That pic alone makes me want to punch the guy.
>
> Where the fuck does he get off calling the computer world an 'ecosystem'? That is ignorance at it's finest. "ecosystem"="ecology" which refers to living things, not the global computer network.
He can; he is Bill Gates; there are enough Microserfs sucking the words from his lips who will
even believe that there is an OS called VSB, if he says so.
gates and bush know what is best for all, just grab your Microsoft flag for your left hand and an American flag for your right, shake you head up and down, wave the flags and smile. Occassional chants of "these guys is great" ( language bush understands) are also permissable. There is no need to consider anything else, they will do your thinking for you.
>>>please remove "nospam" from email address
Now shut up, get back in the fields, and till some earth. Or the King will have you drawn and quartered, and the Church will damn you to hell.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
TCP wasn't developed so that the government could give it away. It was developed so that the government could survive a nuclear attack and so that the all the government's computers could talk to each other during non-emergency conditions.
TCP/IP probably saved the taxpayers billions of dollars due to better interoperatbility. Not to mention the saving in American businesses. Not to mention the economic stimulus it's caused. In short, keep your stupid half thought-out redneck theories about the dem politicians in da gubernmint to your self. Your economics are not just self-centered and boneheaded, they are just wrong.
Writing PNG support without stealing the code, ;-).
and getting it to WORK. That is simply amazing
Rebuttal Number 1:
Do you need the source code of an operating system as a user of that operating system? That is, should you be paying your people to study the intricacies of how the operating system is built and stuff like that?
No, most people don't. There's actually a easy way out of having the simple end-user getting lost in the C and asm... Err, just don't look in the code.
Besides, there's two other segments of users not being addressed here. The first is people who actually by gosh *do* need the source code. There may not be that many, but their work is usually quite important/far-reaching and it affects those who do not need the source code. The second class Mr. Gates has overlooked by his unfortunate choice of wording is those who 'want' to look at the source code. If Mr. Gates needs a clarification of why someone would want to look at source when they don't need to, then his money's no good on thinkgeek.
Rebuttal Number 2:
That's something that for a few percent of the price of the PC you can buy a commercial operating system, where all the work of testing it, supporting it, delivering it, is included for a few percent of that price of the PC
Hm, I haven't the foggiest notion what Mr. Gates is trying to say here. It seems Mr. Gates holds the basic rules of grammar in as low regard as he does the GPL. Either that or he's excited about seeing Yoda in the new episode. Or perhaps he himself has no idea what he means. If he'll wrap that last one up in proper grammar, I'll be happy to respond.
Rebuttal Number 3:
For customers who want source code -- universities, large customers -- we provide that.
Doubtful. If Mr. Gates offered source code upon demand, to universities by way of example, I think we would have seen it by now. Any half-decent university would have jumped upon an opportunity such as this. Anyone out there with a university that counts MS as a supplier? Think you could provide feedback what happens when you say "Hey, we're a university, we have a big contract with you, and we'd like the source code." ? Hmm, large customers... anyone got any really fat relatives?
Rebuttal Number 4
Then you get to the issue of who is going to be the most innovative. You know, will it be capitalism, or will it be just people working at night?
OK, what we're saying here is that it's capitalistic gain that is the prime instigator of innovation. This means that you can't write a good book if you're not being paid shovel-loads. And you can't compose great music if you're not getting rich off of it. And you're not a decent football player unless you're playing with Real Madrid or Man U. Mr. gates, I beg to differ as strongly as possible.
Rebuttal Number 5:
And the farmers will go home at night and work on the source code. (Laughter.)
If doctors can code, I don't see a problem with farmers coding. Oh, and I'm sure a farmer would laugh derisively too at the notion of a software magnate going home to tend to his crops and feed his livestock at night too.
Rebuttal Number 6:
packaged software costs are never more than, say, three, four percent of any significant project
3-4%? What kind of computer do you base this calculation on, Mr. Gates? I can only imagine this figure would be accurate if you operated a Cray at home, or if you were referring to the cost of the RedHat CDs you bought. In other words, your math needs work as well as your grammar, I'm afraid.
# end of rebuttals - for now
As a final aside, I find it significant that most of the points in Gates' response concerned the welfare of the supplier/producer/seller. Mr. Gates appears to be wilfully disregarding that the GPL was designed to serve the user of the code, not the owner/writer. We really shouldn't let this man shift our focus away from this.
Silly man.
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
I want to sue for Bill Gates for IP (Intellectual Property) infringement. He mentioned "Farming by day and Hacking by night" which is actually my idea. How can steal such an economically viable and brilliant idea from me and not mention anything about me. I'm furious I tell you.
Did he use words like "We need to cut off GPL's air supply"?
Nader has highlighted the endemic problem in the US of copanies capitalising on the investments in research funded by tax payers. Further he has identified that corporates capitalise their profits and socialise their losses.
Gates sees no problem with this arrangement (obviously, since it has made him a billionaire) since a solution to this problem , the GPL, is an anathema to him. The government _should_ be looking for was of "infecting" their funding with attributes that mean the ouputs must remain available to the public, since they funded it.
The worm is turning.
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
First of all, Microsoft doesn't pay squat in taxes
Enkidu is absolutely right, see their financials details on Yahoo.
The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.
On Slashdot the parts about GPL are useaslly picked up in these articles. This is logical as most Slashdotters (like me) are in favour of open source and GPL. (I am part owner of a company which is building it's business around OSS software. And yes we do make a profit!)
But what I find more interesting in this article is the focus of moving away from using PC's as a glorified wordprocessor to a machine that can be used to work together. IMO most programs used today by regular users are nothing more than tools to produce dumb objects (like files in stead of data). And the networks are for storing those objects and/or moving them around.
I agree with Bill on this part that moving away from this kind of use and starting to use the networks to work together might be the thing to do in the near past.
But I think that the OSS community has a lot more experience in this. Working together via a network (the internet) is something that is well developed in the OSS world.
The same techniques and experience can be used to create models for employees to work together on I.E. important documents.
So I think in that respect, OSS might have the better cards in this development!
To me that was more imortant. The fact that Bill has trouble sleeping at night because there is such as thing as GPL is not really news to me
---
This way you dont have to read all that MS propaganda junk, CNN has done the job of cleaning it up for you.
...writing software for the public good. And a lot of them are making money off treating the public well."
s oft.open.source.ap/index.html
Has a few good quotes aswell;
"I think Microsoft is threatened by this competitor because it's a competitor like no other they've faced before," he said. "It's a band of volunteers from around the world
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/industry/04/16/micro
Anataka suki desu. Itsumo. Itsumademo.
He further suggests that source code availability is not generally needed, and when it is needed, Microsoft provides it.
ROFL! Yeah, right! Getting MS to provide anything requires a court order, and that's no guarantee 'cause they thumb their noses at the court and then spread more FUD and talk about "freedom to innovate".
Fuck you, Gates! GPL'd and Open Source doesn't need your interpretation of what people need - who the hell are you to decide what I need?
A government Leadership Conference, Gates argues against the same ecosystem arguments for GPLed software development. As part of Microsoft's an eco system that type of Microsoft's campaign against the GPL Bill Gates is not generally needed, and the farmers will be like capitalism and innovation Gates argues against the US where Microsoft is your country: start off around Bill Gates argues against the United States and they are not (generally needed and they are denying the same ecosystem arguments for GPLed software development). And when It is your country start off around that Microsoft has an eco system that Microsoft has an eco system that free software development.
I think the government should stop listening to Microsoft until the antitrust suits against them have completed and remedies have been applied.
Why on God's Green Earth is the government still soliciting Microsoft's opinion on what is right and wrong? Microsoft is obviously guilty of many charges and for some reason has even escaped the charge of purgery. Makes you wonder if the gov't even cares that Microsoft has broken the law so many times. Maybe it's all a show.
Maybe you need less stupid computer users?
But, aren't these Windows designed for completly non-techie users?
Do not this user-friendly interface ecourage you to click everithing you see without thinking?
Well Gates is a gready egocentrical asshole.
The GPL will exist as long as there's free speech.
So, Gates, you greedy communist bastard, get over it! Your monopoly will eventually tumble! It may
take decades, but it will eventually fall. You create bloateware that's buggy. The public can exapand on GPL code and add functionality.
In the beginning software followed an Open Source type model. I remember as a kid code posted on bulleting boards for my Sym-1. People and programmers shared ideas. Well the GPL also allows us to share ideas. So..
Gates, go count your money and give it to some
charity that gives a damn. What goes around comes around, and eventually your software empire will tumble to the ground.
Right, a basic summary: Gates says the GPL model is bad because it doesn't create the jobs that a behemoth like M$ does, and it doesn't generate any revenue since the code is, by and large, developed by "anonymous" coders all over the world in their spare time at zero cost to the end users. He then goes on to say the M$ plan has earned him, his staff and America a shedload of $$$$$ (he obviously declined to answer the "but at what cost question ;)
Smart move - he's talking to US government officials, and this is exactly what they want to hear. Go for the GPL way, and (if you take billg's word for it) you get poorer software and a non-existent software industry. Go the M$ way, you get lower unemployment, more moeny for everybody (I guess it would be overly cynical to suggest any backhanders taking place ;).
Just another step in crippling the GPL et al at the highest levels I suppose. Telling the gov leaders GPL is bad will discourage them from even issuing feasability studies. Besides, it seems that as far as most of the US gov are concerned (IMHO anyway) the M$ model works fine, and they don't seem to see the inherent (or should I say "obvious") risks of a monoculture. And I won't even get started about the potential for snooping: we in the UK have this damned nationwide passport thing to scare the crap out of us day and night.
Sigh.
"Don't use the back button, Senator Smith"
They have computers, and they may have other weapons of mass destruction.
you know, I liked this guy, once, a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away.
:D
For this, I hate him. After all I'm german, and the things HE talks of are just a blow directly in my face. What is he thinking? The American Way Of Hating Others is needed to live? A technical, nerd life? I think this just SUCKS. I don't think this tirade is much more than using some anti-"other" thoughts in general public life, which can not and should not stand or be said by any person of "social life".
We will not stand this aggression, will we? M$ just begins to really suck, and they don't have barcodes on anyone, right now... lets have a look at the future
Ooh. It frosts my shorts to see how someone can use "Ecosystem" as a metaphor for a One Microsoft Way. Ecosystems require diversity to be self-regulating. Ecosystems survive ecological crises by having lots of different species, all evolving separately in their niche. When conditions change, some species suffer, while others thrive. That's a diversified ecosystem.
The open source community exhibits that kind of behavior. Some people ask "Why are there so many different Jabber clients? Shouldn't we all get together and concentrate on one good client for each OS? Not if you want a healthy 'ecosystem'... Let a thousand projects bloom... 10 might become great products. 'Natural selection' will cause a lot of them to fail, but the rest will succeed in their niche.
Opensource software development even allows for transgenic mutation, if the code is copyleft. The 'DNA' (our code), can move around, joining other projects, making robust solutions for each niche. If conditions change, some projects will suffer, but others will rise.
Bill Gates thinks that Capitalism and Innovation work, because it's worked for him. Meanwhile, $209 for Visio? What's up with THAT? It's MacDraw for Org Charts... Lemme out of "that" ecosystem pronto!
=====
My father is a blogger.
Wrong. Microsoft is opposed to anti-business licenses like the GPL, but they are not opposed to true Open Source licenses like the BSD license.
Thats just it. A computer should be easy to use and still let you control what is going on. Because of this newbies can still screw up.
/
Cars for instance are fairly easy to use. Doesn't mean any idiot behind the wheel will be safe.
or more on point. I install Linux myself, I login as root and I see a joke on the web
rm -rf
[or something like that]
Being stupid I run it and oops, I flashed my disk.
Of course an OS could hide all the details from the user but then it would be a pain in the ass todo things like installing hardware that is not currently supported [e.g. not in the kernel or in driver.cab].
I'd say Windows really strives to hit a balance between ease/safety and ability to hack things.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
- XP Home = $97
- XP Professional = $149
I know I can get better prices on the web than MicroPC gives me, but RMAs are soooo easy, so I'm willing to pay their markup, etc.Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
It can be argued that Microsoft doesn't actually generate wealth at all, it just sucks it in from the rest of the economy in the form of a tax on PCs. Windows and Office together now, incredibly, cost more than the hardware cost of a reasonable computer, and therefore probably account for a significant drag on PC sales to people who don't currently own one (MS would like you to believe that they stimulate hardware sales with new versions of their stuff - a tacit admission of bloatware if ever I heard one!)
Does Bill's business model really have a bright future, or is he just milking it for a few more years until he sells all his shares? One day the world will wake up and realise it's being shafted.
And here's proof. I'll even supply a link to a slashdot story. You see, when MS obtains BSD code, they comply with the license. Unlike Lunux.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Tell Darth Gates the Rebellion will NEVER DIE!!!
?l, it's -- I don't mean to be facetious, but capitalism is something that's hard for me to defend, because it seems to work. (Laughter.)
E vil.html
That's like Lucifer saying, "Evil is something that's hard for me to defend, because it seems to work."
What a crock of marketing shit. He says that GPL software can't be sold. Sure it can, in the form of tech support. MS doesn't sell their software, either. They sell a LICENSE to use their software. MS always owns the code. And that's what they object to in terms of the GPL.
And in other MS news of a recent acquisition (a classic):
http://bbspot.com/news/2000/4/MS_Buys_
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
That must be a corollary to the "if you can't make money from it, it's not worth doing" principle.
The trouble with practical jokes is that very often they get elected. -- Will Rogers
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You have to remember that Billy got into Harvard, not MIT.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Doesn't anyone see that the GPL is a philosophy? This Microsoft FUD campaign is attempting to wage a cultural war on all those who believe in open source softare. Divide and conquer, please don't let one man and his minions destroy such a powerful, humane force. To me OSS represents freedom, it also represents that humans are willing to help other humans in need. Don't let Microsoft ever convince you to forget this.
I don't print money to pay taxes. I make money from corporations; every single dime of my income comes from corporations. Ultimately all my taxes are paid by corporations.
WTFAYS?
Joe
Joe Batt Solid Design
If Microsoft's way had been in place for the past century, there never would have BEEN the rise of technology in the US.
Gates argument, when you cancel out all the mesmerizing buzzwords is this: Code that we can't lock up with one of our "fuck you" EULA's is not good for us.
I find it amazing that they actually have the balls to go out and defend THEIR license with these inane attacks on the GPL.
The fact is, yes, you ARE bound to a certain ideology if you use GPL'ed code. That is the price you pay for it. But you always have the option to NOT use it.
Microsoft would like the open source community to change to BSD style licenses because this would mean the END of us. A BSD license lets Microsoft take what we have and not give anything back for it. And they will do it too, there is a LOT of BSD code that has been used in `Doze. Too bad they didn't use more of it, really.
A BSD license for Linux and other GNU code would doom us to being the perpetual "red headed stepchild" to proprietary software, because it means they always can take anything we have, without returning the favor.
The GPL, on the other hand, is a defense, in that the license itself is a "poison pill" that is anathema to M$'s whole business structure.
Indeed, GPL'ed software is the ONLY competition to Microsoft that can't be: bought, stolen, or marketed away.
You can't compete with Microsoft making proprietary software when they target you for elimination. Ask Netscape about this. This is because they not only compete with your application software, but they OWN the highway you have to drive on to get to your customer.
I feel this is why there is now a DEARTH of proprietary software development, and why the only place where competition for MS is happening is in the open source and GPL license community.
And, you know what? It works! Open source software, in general, ends up SUPERIOR in quality to proprietary. Look at Mozilla. Yes, it took a year too long to develop, but I'd not even THINK of going back to IE's "pop up hell" even on my `Doze machine.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
"Ecosystem" is one of the buzzwords used by urban terror groups such as the ones who broke up the World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle recently. People who want to rule by force don't seem to worry about nonsequitors.
a "weak attempt" seems more suitable.
Open Source will never die. It will always remain. As will freeware. They will always be somewhere providinga service to someone. This is a constant.
Another constant, Windows. It will never die either. (Unless Macintosh starts selling like mad) Windows will always remain superior in the consumer market because it is easy to use. Imean if you actually look at how many geeks exist in relation to how many people know jack about computers. The geeks are a tiny slice of the pie. Mom and Dad, the old folks, want a simple system that works. That is what Microsoft provides. End of story. It is plain reality.
Maybe they jumped the gun a bit when they entered the server market. None-the-less their servers seem to work too. You can say oh, Linux is better, but honestly. Who really is to say. Linux has its purpose, Windows has theirs. Leave it be. You don't always have to be a hater.
~Admrlnxn
"I got your mom in my trunk"
There is a much better argument that government money should be restricted to GPL work.
After all, it is someone elses money being spent.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
Sounds like +1 Insightful to me.
Or am I seriously in lack of humor?
(As of now, "Moderation Totals: Interesting=1, Funny=1, Total=2." Displays as Score:4 Funny)
Don't quote me on this.
His comment on "everything around linux has to be GPL'd" is completely wrong.
Bill, ever heard of Tivo? Sharp Zarus? or how about the myraid of custom vertical software solutions built on free and reliable technology frameworks? Hello?
I work for an application service provider, and there's no reason why we can't architect against free/GPL'd technologies like Linux, JBoss, Tomcat, Netbeans, Open LDAP, etc etc. That's being competitive. THAT's capitalism!
What was once proprietary becomes a commodity if it's needed universally. Take an Operating System or a web server as an example. What's next? Java application servers? (BEA, start innovating!) Database Systems (Oracle, MS, start doing the same!)
You stay ahead of the game by inventing new things, which may start out as specialized products.. if it becomes ubiquitous, you don't try to squelch the efforts to commoditize it, you move on to the next innovation!
Many specialized products can be built upon GPL'd IP. there is nothing wrong with that.
This is an interesting link on Linux in business:
http://www.m-tech.ab.ca/linux-biz/
Nothing is keeping ANYONE from using GPL software,
I think he ment in the sense of GPL'd code. Sure, MS can use little GPL'd utitlities, but they can't use the code unless it's for a GPL'd project. That's the point I think the poster was trying to make.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
sure MS creates jobs and such. ... if it didn't have to go to Bill's coffers.
but think of all that money that is syphoned off
for what should be a commons freely available
infrastructure for everyone to build on, operating
systems
Companies expenses would be down, net profit would
be up, share prices would be up, it would get
spread around the economy more than it does
with MS sittting on god knows how many Billion
dollars of cash reserves.
Monoculture is not an ecosystem.
It's a good medium for culturing disease organisms, that's about it.
It's clear to me that the next step in Microsoft's strategy is to pervert the legal environment to criminalize free software. They will do this in the name of "capitalism," which in Gates' parlance has nothing to do with the free market. Instead, it has to do with maintaining their monopoly through subversion of the legal system, threatening suppliers and distributors, and sucking up to the government.
We should take this very seriously indeed. I find it especially ironic that so many so-called "free marketeers" are on the intellectual-property bandwagon, defending government-granted monopolies (which is what patents are), and putting their trust in bureaucrats rather than the market to decide what consititutes original ideas.
Foolish me, I thought that the market only worked when there's a free flow of information and impartial enforcement of law. The situation with software has degenerated to the point where neither of these conditions will remain true for much longer.
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
so is a Micrsoft Eco-system to one where Open
Source, GPL, and Linux are allowed to flourish.
Eventually, everyone including economists, governemts,and even coroporations will realize that there is more economic value in real diversity supporting forests than there is in post clear cut monoculture Tree farms.
As usual more self-serving drivel from Microsoft.
Gates is willing to bring down everything just to
keep his Monopoly business model alive.
If it means increasing the amount of corruption
in the government and stomping all over freedom,
Democracy and anthing else that gets in the way
he will do it.
It is Microsoft that is the Cancer.
There are some comments I need to make regarding Bill Gates. The full truth of my conclusion I shall develop in the course of this letter, but the conclusion's general outline is that Gates is absolutely determined to believe that he has the mandate of Heaven to undermine the individualistic underpinnings of traditional jurisprudence, and he's not about to let facts or reason get in his way. Given his current mind-set, the pen is a powerful tool. Why don't we use that tool to institute change? It should be stressed that Gates has spent untold hours trying to call for a return to that which wasn't particularly good in the first place. During that time, did it ever once occur to him that he tries to assert his autonomy by attempting to force people to act in ways far removed from the natural patterns of human behavior? Well, while you're deliberating over that, let me ask you another question: Why can't we all just get along? Now, not to bombard you with too many questions, but everything I've said so far is by way of introduction to the key point I want to make in this letter. My key point is that he spews out his vituperative slander from a safe, no-risk forum. And I can say that with a clear conscience, because we should agree on definitions before saying anything further about his batty stances. For starters, let's say that "militarism" is "that which makes Gates yearn to supply the chains that bind the individual to notions of self-loathing and unworthiness." When Gates says that his decisions are based on reason, that's just a load of spucatum tauri. It has been said that he has studiously avoided being contaminated by the facts. That makes sense to me. I believe it's true. But it really implies that his stooges are too lazy to take a strong position on his threats, which, after all, con us into believing that his values can give us deeper insights into the nature of reality. They just want to sit back, fasten their mouths on the public teats, and casually forget that Gates's prank phone calls are based on hate. Hate, barbarism, and an intolerance of another viewpoint, another way of life.
Gates is attracted to voyeurism like a moth to a candle, yet we will need to use diverse skills and tactics if we are to comment on Gates's tricks. This sort of vertiginous paradox is well known to most odious scofflaws. I can repeat with undiminished conviction something I said eons ago: In order to shelter initially unpopular truths from suppression, enabling them to ultimately win out through competition in the marketplace of ideas, we must set the record straight. And that's just the first step. Remember, someone once said to me, "I wish vainglorious gadflies had the gumption not to tell everyone else what to do." This phrase struck me so forcefully that I have often used it since. Annoying heretics have exerted care always to use high-sounding words like "galvanocontractility" to hide Gates's plans to disparage and ridicule our traditional heroes and role models. This is not rhetoric. This is reality.
I mean, really. Gates's self-fulfilling prophecies have no basis in science or in human experience. Instead, they consist of noisome, clumsy offhand remarks derived from a world view rooted in footling, infantile particularism. Gates's catch-phrases symbolize lawlessness, violence, and misguided rebellion -- extreme liberty for a few, even if the rest of us lose more than a little freedom. Gates feels he has not only a right, but also a duty, to pander to our worst fears. Sadly, lack of space prevents me from elaborating further. It's good that you're reading this letter. It's good that you're listening to what I'm saying. But reading and listening aren't enough. You must also be willing to help me focus on concrete facts, on hard news, on analyzing and interpreting what's happening in the world.
Generally speaking, if he has spurred us to improve the lot of humankind, then Gates may have accomplished a useful thing. He and his cult followers are juvenile card sharks. This is not set down in complaint against them, but merely as analysis. No one today believes that I'm too pushy to exemplify the principles of honor, duty, loyalty, and courage. That said, let me continue. We must decidedly enable patriots to use their freedoms to save their freedoms. Does that sound extremist? Is it too flighty for you? I'm sorry if it seems that way, but that's life.
The interesting point is this: Gates seeks scapegoats for his own shortcomings by blaming the easiest target he can find, that is, apolaustic deadheads. Plan to join his camp? Be sure to check your conscience at the door.
No matter how close he's come to making me develop a subconscious death wish, he won't be satisfied until he finds a way to deny citizens the ability to draw their own conclusions about the potential for violence that he may be generating. Personally, I don't expect Gates to give up his crusade to undermine the basic values of work, responsibility, and family. But we'll see. As for me, I have no bombs, no planes, no artillery, and no terrorist plots. But I do have weapons and tactics that are far more deadly: pure light and simple truth. His perceptions are intellectually and morally indefensible. Well, that's getting away from my main topic, which is that statements like, "Gates's belief that recidivism is the key to world peace is pure and total fantasy" accurately express the feelings of most of us here.
You are, I'm sure, well aware that by opting for the easy, short-term, feel-good path, Gates will disguise the complexity of color, the brutality of class, and the importance of religion and sexual identity in the construction and practice of McCarthyism by the next full moon. But did you know that his hypocrisy comes out when he denies that he surrounds himself with recalcitrant troublemakers? He is a pretty good liar most of the time. However, he tells so many lies, he's bound to trip himself up someday. Strange, isn't it, how the worst kinds of grotesque, inimical lunatics there are are always the first to use mass organization as a system of integration and control?
Are you still with me? Gates's confreres are unified under a common goal. That goal is to defile the present and destroy the future. Similarly, the biggest difference between me and Gates is that Gates wants to make widespread accusations and insinuations without having the facts to back them up. I, on the other hand, want to speak out against behavior and speech that is intended to kill the messenger and control the message. Listen carefully: He says that he is a perpetual victim of injustice. Wow! Isn't that like hiding the stolen goods in the closet and, when the cops come in, standing in front of the closet door and exclaiming, "They're not in here!"?
Gates's smears reek of insurrectionism. I use the word "reek", because people tell me that I challenge Gates to crawl out of his sheltered existence and do something good for others. And the people who tell me this are correct, of course. For what it's worth, that's just one side of the coin. The other side is that I have to wonder where he got the idea that it is my view that a richly evocative description of a problem automatically implies the correct solution to that problem. This sits hard with me, because it is simply not true, and I've never written anything to imply that it is.
The gloss that Gates's compeers put on Gates's rejoinders unfortunately does little to do something about the continuing -- make that the escalating -- effort on his part to excoriate attempts to bring questions of pharisaism into the (essentially apolitical) realm of pedagogy in language and writing. Gates obviously didn't have to pass an intelligence test to get to where he is today, because his knowledge of how things work is completely off the mark. First of all, his little world is far from reality. That conclusion is not based on some sort of jaded philosophy or on Gates-style mental masturbation, but on widely known and proven principles of science. These principles explain that Gates has, on a number of occasions, expressed a desire to herald the death of intelligent discourse on college campuses. On all of these occasions, I submitted to the advice of my friends, who assured me that his publications are rife with contradictions and difficulties; they're completely counter-productive, meet no objective criteria, and are unsuited for a supposedly educated population. And as if that weren't enough, the problem of condescending buffoons serves as an excuse for him to express his own hostility and frustrated need for power. Let me rephrase that: He believes that hanging out with savage pernicious-types is a wonderful, culturally enriching experience only because he has a need to believe that. I'll say that again, because I want it to sink in: He is obviously hiding something. Gates has stated that human beings should be appraised by the number of things and the amount of money they possess instead of by their internal value and achievements. That's just pure autism. Well, in Gates's case, it might be pure ignorance, seeing that I, hardheaded cynic that I am, want to make this clear, so that those who do not understand deeper messages embedded within sarcastic irony -- and you know who I'm referring to -- can process my point. And that's it. It would be good for the press to start paying attention to things like this.
Or better yet, you could pay for some of their cost for maintaining this site and then people like you couldn't use that as an excuse to complain about Slashdot.
Of course, you're too much of a pussy to actually do anything like support the community you are part of. And if you really want to make a difference, don't fucking read Slashdot and stop patronizing the site.
But it's much easy to make fun of the people running the site and those who try to help support it then actually try to do something constructive.
Yeah, I know my post is a little mean, but I don't mind people having legitimate problems with Slashdot and expressing their thoughts in a clear and concise manner. I think you post could have been a little more thought out.
While y'all are arguing about the GPL versus BSD versus other licenses, or the evillity of Its Billness, here's another, more important point to ponder:
This speech was given at a Microsoft convention for Governments. There, Your Representatives get hob-nobbed, pampered, as well as get their ears bent by Microsoft. That is, Microsoft gets a wonderful chance to come off as Great People® and gets to put some of their thoughts and opinions in the heads of Your Representatives.
So, when are we GPL, BSD, and Other Software Libre/Open Source Software people going to create our own conference for hobnobbing Your Representatives?
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
Nuff said right there.
--doug
As for being "rabid", I suspect that RMS is considerably more flexible than, say, Brett Glass and his ilk. RMS has a goal, and generally acts in line with that goal, and sometimes that means supporting Open Source licenses instead of the GPL.
Personally, I believe that a schism between Free Software and Open Source can benefit only those who don't truly wish to see either succeed.
Mike
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
People, individual people, will take the software and work on it. For-profit corporations, for the most part, will not
Most for profit corporations do not produce software, they just use it. The subset of companies that would be affected by the inability to sell GPL software is not all that large.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Gates is widely perceived as a capitalist, as is anyone who heads a large company and is rich. It's easy to forget that Lenin and Stalin had pretty well-to-do lives as well, and headed up their own organization.
Gates' own words:
Ah, so government should be spending taxpayer money to create jobs, instead of spending it to get the most bang per buck. I see. Thanks for making that explicit, Gates. Wow. He's saying that taxpayers should pay for software that has already been paid for, let Microsoft skim from these payments, and send what's left over back to the government, so that it can pay for schools. Yeah, that sure beats taxpayers getting software for free, and then directly funding schools themselves (instead of running Microsoft MiddleMan) with the money that's saved.Ignore Gates' use of words like "capitalist" in that speech and look what he's really saying. It's left-wing corruption, through and through.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Second, to hear the head of a shambling monstrosity like Micro$oft go on and on about how his company's products will not only cure all ills, promote domestic tranquility and generally create paradise on Earth only IF you buy..
Please, I must stop and go retch..
Why would anyone waste life debating this obvious drek? More importantly, I'd like to know what my representatives were doing there, listening to the guilty party desperately trying to convince all that will listen that no, we're not a monopoly, not really, but even if so, it's good for the country and alright for you...
"Avast! Prepare for the rodgering!" THWACK! "Arrr.. me nards.."
The convicted software monopolist doesn't like the GPL.
Who could ever use another license again?
If my friend Ace were a slashdotter, I know that's probably where the Funny came from.
Else, it's probably the second paragraph mentioning Can O' Crap, The Mystery Meat You Gotta Eat (tm), aka the Windows OS you must needs buy with a computer. (Please, no flames about naked systems or MS Rebate.)
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
I really like Bill's argument "In a GPL world, only the farmers will pay taxes, hacking at night". It conveniently forgets that Microsoft hasn't paid income taxes in years because of stock option loopholes, and that in any case, even if they did pay taxes, the net money flow would still go from the government to Microsoft and not the other way around.
An ecosystem isn't stable if one type of organism comprises 97% of the biomass. Such an ecosystem will collapse, with the dominant organism choking on it's own waste products.
I totally agree with RMS, It is a good point there is lotsa free space in space. I could imagine an accelerator built around the moon. Would be one heck a fine particle accelerator says me. Why not?
- Voice of Ambience -
You should install it outside Mexico City instead!
The recent "zlib bug thing" rose awareness of M$'s open source code usage. Wasn't the author annoyed about (legally) not getting credit for his work?
IANADoctor..
14 - 12 = 2 years earlier. Less than 20 %.
Early puberty IS a bad thing because it stunts growth and prevents proper development, bone formation, etc.
You're right. We should wait until kids hit puberty at age 5, then THAT'S A BIG DIFFERENCE...
Then "tickle me elmo" will be vice president, since all the adults are under 10 years old.
Funniest thing I read in a while, and (BELIEVE IT OR NOT) I get it!!
;) ]
[my bkg: Assy programmer CBM 64, Amiga [boy can I pick winners!
Now I don't feel so bad about being a visual-C/VB/ASP/Java bitch!
How it is that Bill Gates is able to convey messages with so much DoubleSpeak in them, using soft bunny fluffy terms like "ecosystem" and "fostering innovation" while running a behemoth that bulldozes over innovation coming anywhere but from Microsoft, I figured I let you in on the secret.
He never finishes coherent sentences. His speech is riddled with hyphens, discontinuities that make it possible to say such things.
[According to Hard Drive, he refers to this manner of speaking as "high bandwidth" and actually "converses" with Steve Ballmer using this language.]
I doubt the court will be so enamored of it, though.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
apt-get the whole shebang
to microsoft apt-get the whole thing
The commons were where a town would set aside a common field that anyone could use to graze their animals. These fields were totally wrecked and left as a packed earth inside of just a few years.
Microsoft became a convicted monopolist stealing BSD code. They took the best of breed and "integrated" it into their products and took 95% of the desktop marketshare while they were doing it. Even while Bill missed the internet and thought that msn was the next big thing that wasn't enough to affect their market share. BSD's appropriation of all these open standards and their embrace and extend approach is the tragedy of the software commons.
But now, the best software in the world is no longer covered under the BSD license. Linux is the fastest, smallest OS. Linux is the UNIX defragmentation tool. All major UNIX vendors are supporting Linux API's and file formats to allow Linux programs to run on their platforms. If they don't just run a version of Linux instead of their own crappy proprietary version of UNIX.
Samba running on Linux beats Microsofts own file and print servers. X15 web server running in user mode beats the fastest web server that Microsoft makes. Frame rates for Quake on the X window system are as fast as the frame rates for Windows with the lastest generation of video cards. There is not one, but half a dozen open office suites available for Linux. And none of this software is under Microsoft's control.
They can't buy the company like they have every other company. There is no company to buy. They can't steal the code without agreeing to distribute anything that is linked against it was GPL software too.
It sucks to be one of the largest companies in the world with 20,000 programmers and you can't compete against a rag tag group of programmers who each pop up and contribute brilliant ideas to the Free Software movement, then move on. Ideas that MS can't buy, can't steal, can only look at in envy.
The Free software movement is the largest consumer revolt in the history of mankind. Programmers themselves got tired of dealing with all the crappy hidden API's and incompatible versions of UNIX and rewrote it all with a license that will guarantee interoperability forever. And it is working. The GPL guarantees that all of the customers of such software will always have full access to the source code to do with it what they will.
BSD just gave us incompatable software and proprietary OS'es. Which sucked. If you write software, please protect the user of your software and release with a GPL license, after all, the customer is always right.
Companies are taxpayers just like you are. In either scenario, we've all shared the burden of paying for the development. However, if the code is GPL'd, the companies cannot benefit from it. This simply is not fair.
Why is it simply not fair? It doesn't seem all that simple to me.
If we are all going to pay, we should all be able to use.
Why? The government puts tax dollars into lots of things like defense, yet that doesn't mean we should have access to stealth planes and defense projects. Grants go into research all the time but the government doesn't dictate the terms of the license one must use, like drugs and medical research. Tax dollars are placed into public parks and things of that nature, yet one cannot build a house in Central Park. Public School are paid by tax dollars, yet that doesn't make you the principle.
Surely you're not talking about the GPL since everyone IS able to use GPLed software. M$ doesn't want to use GPLed software, they want to own it, fork it, and restrict you from the code so you have to pay for it.
You may not like paying taxes and many people don't, but I'm perfectly happy with my tax dollars going into projects without mandatory freeloader licenses attached. And just because you pay taxes, that may or may not have been used at one time on a project that was GPLed, doesn't give you any more access to it than buying windows would give you a right to m$ code. But then again, GPLed code gives you access to the code already.
If BSD is so good, then why doesn't m$ use it? Why did they invent shared source? The message is BSD is good for our competitors. Micros~1 sells software, not code. They do it by obfuscating code. That's why they want GPL code placed under BSD, so they can sell it. If you think otherwise, then I got some stock tips for you.
I have no specific examples right now. A laywer probably could find some.
I recall hearing about, but do not recall the exact details of, situations where this is the case. Specifically, the GPL releases the authors of particular obligations, as allowed by contract law. Those obligations are still in effect under public domain restrictions, since public domain release only applies to copyright, not other IP issues like liability, trade secrets, warranty, and so on.
Actual instances of software liability is an ongoing topic. /. archives, news sources, and legal news sites have much to say as to how much liability different releases of software have.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
As a dedicated fan of the masterpeice of modern theatre known as StarTrek::Voyager, I find your name and posts offenseive. Pls fix, thanx.
(sheesh! next your gonna be telling me the enterprise theme song sucks or something! this will not stand. this argression will not stand!)
(yes, I always write ST:: serries names like they're perl modules. it's my WAY, fucker, the way my people have done it for thousands of years.)