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The Case for the Empire
fReNeTiK writes "In this amusingly controversial article over at the weekly standard's web site, we get to hear an opinion not often heard among the hordes of Star Wars fanatics out there: The rebel alliance are actually "... an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back." An entertaining read which will surely spark flame wars of epic proportions." Reader kaypro submits an MSNBC story examining the
science of Star Wars. And
Ant notes that the
Clones DVD will be out earlier than expected.
Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.
Wow, calling Pinochet "relatively benign" is about the biggest stretch I've ever heard of. Sure, beningn to the US and its economic interests, but I think any Chileans in the room will disagree.
i mean sure they're oppressed, but c'mon, their helmets are shiny enough, life can't be that bad under lord vaders rule.
Software Freedom Day!.
The Case for the Empire
Everything you think you know about Star Wars is wrong.
by Jonathan V. Last
05/16/2002 12:00:00 AM
Jonathan V. Last, online editor
STAR WARS RETURNS today with its fifth installment, "Attack of the Clones." There will be talk of the Force and the Dark Side and the epic morality of George Lucas's series. But the truth is that from the beginning, Lucas confused the good guys with the bad. The deep lesson of Star Wars is that the Empire is good.
It's a difficult leap to make--embracing Darth Vader and the Emperor over the plucky and attractive Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia--but a careful examination of the facts, sorted apart from Lucas's off-the-shelf moral cues, makes a quite convincing case.
First, an aside: For the sake of this discussion, I've considered only the history gleaned from the actual Star Wars films, not the Expanded Universe. If you know what the Expanded Universe is and want to argue that no discussion of Star Wars can be complete without considering material outside the canon, that's fine. However, it's always been my view that the comic books and novels largely serve to clean up Lucas's narrative and philosophical messes. Therefore, discussions of intrinsic intent must necessarily revolve around the movies alone. You may disagree, but please don't e-mail me about it.
If you don't know what the Expanded Universe is, well, uh, neither do I.
I. The Problems with the Galactic Republic
At the beginning of the Star Wars saga, the known universe is governed by the Galactic Republic. The Republic is controlled by a Senate, which is, in turn, run by an elected chancellor who's in charge of procedure, but has little real power.
Scores of thousands of planets are represented in the Galactic Senate, and as we first encounter it, it is sclerotic and ineffectual. The Republic has grown over many millennia to the point where there are so many factions and disparate interests, that it is simply too big to be governable. Even the Republic's staunchest supporters recognize this failing: In "The Phantom Menace," Queen Amidala admits, "It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions." In "Attack of the Clones," young Anakin Skywalker observes that it simply "doesn't work."
The Senate moves so slowly that it is powerless to stop aggression between member states. In "The Phantom Menace" a supra-planetary alliance, the Trade Federation (think of it as OPEC to the Galactic Republic's United Nations), invades a planet and all the Senate can agree to do is call for an investigation.
Like the United Nations, the Republic has no armed forces of its own, but instead relies on a group of warriors, the Jedi knights, to "keep the peace." The Jedi, while autonomous, often work in tandem with the Senate, trying to smooth over quarrels and avoid conflicts. But the Jedi number only in the thousands--they cannot protect everyone.
What's more, it's not clear that they should be "protecting" anyone. The Jedi are Lucas's great heroes, full of Zen wisdom and righteous power. They encourage people to "use the Force"--the mystical energy which is the source of their power--but the truth, revealed in "The Phantom Menace," is that the Force isn't available to the rabble. The Force comes from midi-chlorians, tiny symbiotic organisms in people's blood, like mitochondria. The Force, it turns out, is an inherited, genetic trait. If you don't have the blood, you don't get the Force. Which makes the Jedi not a democratic militia, but a royalist Swiss guard.
And an arrogant royalist Swiss guard, at that. With one or two notable exceptions, the Jedi we meet in Star Wars are full of themselves. They ignore the counsel of others (often with terrible consequences), and seem honestly to believe that they are at the center of the universe. When the chief Jedi record-keeper is asked in "Attack of the Clones" about a planet she has never heard of, she replies that if it's not in the Jedi archives, it doesn't exist. (The planet in question does exist, again, with terrible consequences.)
In "Attack of the Clones," a mysterious figure, Count Dooku, leads a separatist movement of planets that want to secede from the Republic. Dooku promises these confederates smaller government, unlimited free trade, and an "absolute commitment to capitalism." Dooku's motives are suspect--it's not clear whether or not he believes in these causes. However, there's no reason to doubt the motives of the other separatists--they seem genuinely to want to make a fresh start with a government that isn't bloated and dysfunctional.
The Republic, of course, is eager to quash these separatists, but they never make a compelling case--or any case, for that matter--as to why, if they are such a freedom-loving regime, these planets should not be allowed to check out of the Republic and take control of their own destinies.
II. The Empire
We do not yet know the exact how's and why's, but we do know this: At some point between the end of Episode II and the beginning of Episode IV, the Republic is replaced by an Empire. The first hint comes in "Attack of the Clones," when the Senate's Chancellor Palpatine is granted emergency powers to deal with the separatists. It spoils very little to tell you that Palpatine eventually becomes the Emperor. For a time, he keeps the Senate in place, functioning as a rubber-stamp, much like the Roman imperial senate, but a few minutes into Episode IV, we are informed that the he has dissolved the Senate, and that "the last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."
Lucas wants the Empire to stand for evil, so he tells us that the Emperor and Darth Vader have gone over to the Dark Side and dresses them in black.
But look closer. When Palpatine is still a senator, he says, "The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good." At one point he laments that "the bureaucrats are in charge now."
Palpatine believes that the political order must be manipulated to produce peace and stability. When he mutters, "There is no civility, there is only politics," we see that at heart, he's an esoteric Straussian.
Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do business with. They collect taxes and patrol the skies. They try to stop organized crime (in the form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts). The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.
Also, unlike the divine-right Jedi, the Empire is a meritocracy. The Empire runs academies throughout the galaxy (Han Solo begins his career at an Imperial academy), and those who show promise are promoted, often rapidly. In "The Empire Strikes Back" Captain Piett is quickly promoted to admiral when his predecessor "falls down on the job."
And while it's a small point, the Empire's manners and decorum speak well of it. When Darth Vader is forced to employ bounty hunters to track down Han Solo, he refuses to address them by name. Even Boba Fett, the greatest of all trackers, is referred to icily as "bounty hunter." And yet Fett understands the protocol. When he captures Solo, he calls him "Captain Solo." (Whether this is in deference to Han's former rank in the Imperial starfleet, or simply because Han owns and pilots his own ship, we don't know. I suspect it's the former.)
But the most compelling evidence that the Empire isn't evil comes in "The Empire Strikes Back" when Darth Vader is battling Luke Skywalker. After an exhausting fight, Vader is poised to finish Luke off, but he stays his hand. He tries to convert Luke to the Dark Side with this simple plea: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. . . . Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." It is here we find the real controlling impulse for the Dark Side and the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or destruction or "evil." It wants order.
None of which is to say that the Empire isn't sometimes brutal. In Episode IV, Imperial stormtroopers kill Luke's aunt and uncle and Grand Moff Tarkin orders the destruction of an entire planet, Alderaan. But viewed in context, these acts are less brutal than they initially appear. Poor Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen reach a grisly end, but only after they aid the rebellion by hiding Luke and harboring two fugitive droids. They aren't given due process, but they are traitors.
The destruction of Alderaan is often cited as ipso facto proof of the Empire's "evilness" because it seems like mass murder--planeticide, even. As Tarkin prepares to fire the Death Star, Princess Leia implores him to spare the planet, saying, "Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons." Her plea is important, if true.
But the audience has no reason to believe that Leia is telling the truth. In Episode IV, every bit of information she gives the Empire is willfully untrue. In the opening, she tells Darth Vader that she is on a diplomatic mission of mercy, when in fact she is on a spy mission, trying to deliver schematics of the Death Star to the Rebel Alliance. When asked where the Alliance is headquartered, she lies again.
Leia's lies are perfectly defensible--she thinks she's serving the greater good--but they make her wholly unreliable on the question of whether or not Alderaan really is peaceful and defenseless. If anything, since Leia is a high-ranking member of the rebellion and the princess of Alderaan, it would be reasonable to suspect that Alderaan is a front for Rebel activity or at least home to many more spies and insurgents like Leia.
Whatever the case, the important thing to recognize is that the Empire is not committing random acts of terror. It is engaged in a fight for the survival of its regime against a violent group of rebels who are committed to its destruction.
III. After the Rebellion
As we all know from the final Star Wars installment, "Return of the Jedi," the rebellion is eventually successful. The Emperor is assassinated, Darth Vader abdicates his post and dies, the central governing apparatus of the Empire is destroyed in a spectacular space battle, and the rebels rejoice with their small, annoying Ewok friends. But what happens next?
(There is a raft of literature on this point, but, as I said at the beginning, I'm going to ignore it because it doesn't speak to Lucas's original intent.)
In Episode IV, after Grand Moff Tarkin announces that the Imperial Senate has been abolished, he's asked how the Emperor can possibly hope to keep control of the galaxy. "The regional governors now have direct control over territories," he says. "Fear will keep the local systems in line."
So under Imperial rule, a large group of regional potentates, each with access to a sizable army and star destroyers, runs local affairs. These governors owe their fealty to the Emperor. And once the Emperor is dead, the galaxy will be plunged into chaos.
In all of the time we spend observing the Rebel Alliance, we never hear of their governing strategy or their plans for a post-Imperial universe. All we see are plots and fighting. Their victory over the Empire doesn't liberate the galaxy--it turns the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one.
Which makes the rebels--Lucas's heroes--an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back.
I'll take the Empire.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
It's not like they've got to do a lot of work to create the base digital master!
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Its not slashdotted, Foo!
Think nothing is impossible? Try slamming a revolving door.
.. of a good story :o)
$ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
"Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet."
Christ almighty, how offensive. Pincochet overthrew a democratically elected government, murdered dissenting voices by the thousands and crushed all opposition. That is *not* by any standards benign. F---wit.
Hey, maybe this guy should start posting to the Weekly Standard... seems awfully alike *grin*
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
How can the Rebels be called anarchic if they are primarily people with Royal titles trying their best to establish the "Old Republic".
Besides that though, the Empire kills people at will, and they impose Draconian smuggling laws which only serve to prop up Hut gangsters.
As tiresome as a republics claims to a monopoly on 'good' can be (and lord knows we see enough of that), the only other alternative at the time is a group that claims a monopoly on 'evil', which can't possibly be any better.
While the points in this may be true, I feel that there is a very good chance that the author wished that this piece would be viewed as satrical, not a proclamation of truth. I mean, the most common analogy between Star Wars and history is that the Emipre parallel Nazi ways. Ever notice that the Empire people are always humans? What about the complete control that the emperor has, much like Hitler did during WWII. Both of these people demanded absolute power (at all times, but most specifically at times of conflict), which led to mistakes being made because they only had one specific goal. It is possible to equate Dunkurk with Yavin or Endor? Yes it is.
/. flames. :-)
So, one must look at this situation differently. I really don't think the writer meant to side with the Empire 100%, mainly because that justifies Nazi-esque policies. And if he did, well I hope he has a good time refuting all the
the empire is what supplied law and order to the galaxy. although they seemed to be repressive at times, we can only see it from the rebel's perspective. additionally, what good can come from destroying not a country wide, but a galaxy wide government. that would leave a massive power vacuum which would only result in civil wars and more fighting for the rebels.
Its clear that the rebel alliance are terrorists.
Parallel: Imagine a bunch of heavily armed British (or even French) Monarchists waging guerilla war across th US to undo the "injustice" of the American revolution and restore the House of Windsor to power.
The whole Star Wars series is responsible for promoting and glamorizing terrorism. Somebody arrest George Lucas.
...of course, he should have been arrested for Ep 1.
"This isn't the story you wanted to read."
"Hey, what's this crap, I didn't wanna read this!"
"Move along."
"I'm gonna reload so I can get first post on the next story!"
Sent from your iPad.
Like it or not, he does put some of the points across in a clear, lucid manner. I must admit, a quarter of the way into the article sees of doubt were already being sowed into my idea of who the "good guys" are.
Of course, some points he makes about the rebel only havings plots, and no clue about what to do once the empire is decimated doesn't really hold water - i'm sure lucas would have made more installments to handle that case, but then again it probably wouldn't make for good viewing. It's a man's fantasy after all, for god's sake!
Maybe it's just a case of this guy being able to argue his way convincingly out of anything. Sure did convince me.
The Wknd Sessions - Malaysian and South East Asia independent music
"Well, they make the trains run on time ..."
Of course, they would probably be handed to the Empire after several centuries anyway...
Pinochet was a benign dictator? This man tortured and killed thousands of people. I'd hardly call that benign..
Blaming GW Bush for the Iraq war is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the poor quality of food.
This article reminds me of a series of articles found on Space.com called The Phantom Heresies, a collection of speculation on why things were in Star Wars. (Because these links are fairly old, you may have to scrounge around--use Google.)
The link above discusses the powers and the arrogance of the Jedi, and why they had it coming. The cool part for me about these articles was that they reflected my views after watching The Phantom Menace after watching how mortibund both Jedi Council and Senate were in comparison to the efficient manipulations of Darth Sidious in TFM.
Was the Empire a better system? I think that a gilded cage is a cage, no matter how informative or high-class the reading material is that covers the bottom of my cage. I would side with the Rebels, lightsaber in hand if I were a Jedi.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
I thought it was "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"?
This is probably one of the most famous lines from Star Wars and it was messed up, I for one find this amusing
-CPM
---You're all I need, When the water runs deep, You're all I need, Now I cry my soul to sleep -- Collective Soul, Needs
"It is here we find the real controlling impulse for the Dark Side and the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or destruction or "evil." It wants order"
just like hitler
I think it is exactly to head off this sort of criticism that AOTC has all this silly business about the former Queen Amidala having been democratically elected. This, of course, makes no sense at all (why would the daughter of an elected i.e. non-hereditary ex-"queen" be a princess?) except that it makes the rebels seem a little less totalitarian.
Sure, Star Wars is just like the American Revolution. The Americans were rebels fighting against the opressive Britans for their freedom. The reality of it is that we were rebeling against our own government. That would be like Americans now a days taking up arms and fighting against our own military and president Bush.
If the Britans had won that war do you think it would still be called the American revolution? I think it would go down in history more like The quelling of political extremists, where Britain had to restore peace to it's original form.
What about Star Wars? What if the "dark side" killed off the rebels? They would be restoring peace to the way it was before the rebel uprising. Everything's relative.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
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The Jedi may be arrogant, but they seem to be a very loyal "royal guard" and their idealism is not misplaced.
Can I bum a sig?
I'm betting he's waiting until after episode 3, to add what would be serious prequel spoilers to the second half of the "hexology", or whatever the term is ("hextet"?), since I seriously doubt it's going to be a nonology anymore.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
I guess that's "relative to other mass-murdering dictators". Funny line though.
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It's time to put my full karma load to good use....
... If you don't have the blood, you don't get the Force. Which makes the Jedi not a democratic militia, but a royalist Swiss guard."
I'm hoping that this article was written in jest, but in case it isn't, it needs to be addressed. The whole thing is asinine, but here are the most offensive errors.
The Republic is controlled by a Senate, which is, in turn, run by an elected chancellor who's in charge of procedure, but has little real power.
The Senate moves so slowly that it is powerless to stop aggression between member states.
Episode I makes it clear that it's Palpatine who is behind the bureaucratic mess that plagues the Senate. He's trying to discredit Chancellor Velorum so that he can become Chancellor. Palpatine (as Darth Sidious) admits to this.
"The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good." At one point he laments that "the bureaucrats are in charge now."
But it's obvious to everyone in the audience that Palpatine's concern is an act to gain the trust of Amidala. This is just a no-brainer.
What's more, it's not clear that they [the Jedi] should be "protecting" anyone. The Jedi are Lucas's great heroes..., but the truth, revealed in "The Phantom Menace," is that the Force isn't available to the rabble.
I don't understand the problem with this. Qui-Gon explains that they have a screening program that presumably recruits kids from no specific background to become Jedi. So membership in the Jedi order isn't hereditary at all. That one must possess special qualities to be a jedi isn't a problem either. You can't program computers if you aren't good at technical stuff, but that doesn't make us a Royal Swiss Guard.
As for the Jedi being blinded with arrogance, yeah I guess that's true. But if they hadn't fucked up somehow, you wouldn't have had Vader, or the Emporer, and Episodes IV-VI would just be about the Jedi council sitting around picking their noses.
If anything, since Leia is a high-ranking member of the rebellion and the princess of Alderaan, it would be reasonable to suspect that Alderaan is a front for Rebel activity or at least home to many more spies and insurgents like Leia.
Assuming that this is true, and Alderaan is armed to the teeth and crawling with terrorists, the indiscriminate slaughter of every man, woman, and child on an entire planet would be an act of evil greater than anything we've ever seen. Much worse than Nazi Germany, Maoist China, and Stalin combined. Of course, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that his claims about Alderaan are true.
Oh yeah, and that remark about Pinochet being a benign dictator. Saying that Pinochet's rule in Chile was acceptable is like saying that a little bit of murder is OK, just not too much. How many innocent people is it OK to murder? 100? 1000? 10,000?
I'm sorry for ranting about something that isn't even a big deal, but this article is so badly written that it's offensive. This conservative fuckhead should go back to the trailer park where he belongs.
Steve
Replace the word 'Libertarian' with 'Republican' and you'd be correct.
We have the sclerotic and bureaucratic republic, an empire run by some evil guys dressed in black, and a bunch of rebellious royals. I'm with Brin: Star Trek offers a more inspiring vision of the future.
A more-accurate 20th-century analogy with the overthrow of the Republic and the ascension to power of the Emperor Palpatine may be the overthrow of the regime of the Shah of Iran and the ascension to power of the Ayatollah Khomeini. Well, not VERY accurate, but close enough to stimulate some debate.
FWIW, I personally agree with the author of the article in question -- I'd take the Empire over the Rebel Alliance any day of the week.
-----
PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
Never mind that only the latter is in any way indicated on the screen.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Reminds me of the time I came in late on one of the Star Trek movies and missed the set up. What I saw was a bunch of handsome/cute creatures (the starship) beating up the ugly Klingons for no reason whatsoever. I came to the conclusion that this was how hollywood sees the world: the triumph of the beautiful.
I think this analysis gives George "Jar Jar" Lucas more credit than he deserves. At best, he wanted to create a group the audience would side with (Rebels) and a group the audience would side against (the Empire). His writing is really not good enough to create characters who, externally, appear to be bad but really have righteous motives.
I was going to write something deep and insightful about parallels between the "Star Wars" and "Foundation" empires, but I'm way too tired - finals coming up :(.
Hopefully someone else will see this and be inspired to write something (+1 interesting) before it gets modded down and disappears into the (-1 offtopic) black hole.
It's funny how many parallels one could draw between the US and The Empire, although obviously George Lucas intended them to be the Nazis: "Stormtroopers", all-human (as the article points out) etc.
Also bear in mind that the examples I list below consist mainly of events that happened well after the films were made, so I am not really saying that GL even subconsciously made the Empire be a reflection of the USA.
US/Empire Parallels:
* Imperial treatment of captured rebels, e.g. Leia: Camp X-Ray.
* Battle on Endor: This is so Vietnam, the Imperials get creamed by the indiginous population because they know the land better, even if they have cruder weaponry.
* Destruction of Aldaraan: Nagasaki, Hiroshima. Large Explosion to cause terror against innocent civilians.
* Battle on Hoth: Seek out the rebels/terrorists in those caves/those ice-tunnels and wipe them out- all of them.
* Destruction of Death Star: WTC. Don't flame me for this, I am not trivializing this horrific tragedy or siding with the terrorists, but both the Death Star and the WTC were symbols of the supremacy of the US/the Empire.
graspee
Flame/downmod away; I am just trying to start a thread here. If people reply, even if they tell me why I am wrong, it will be interesting...
From a background briefing.....
Thats a lot of benevolence.
Mmmmmm I suspect the author has been listening to CNN.
From the remember Chile website
Remember Chile
Boing boing boing....
This gentleman has made what is, on the surface, a reasonably sound argument, and one that will no doubt appeal to many on this site. Yes, it is true that the Empire maintained law and order. Yes it is true that the Alliance to Restore the Republic was in rebellion against the technically legitimate government.
However, the coming to power of this government must be examined. It's head, former Senator Palpatine, engineered several diplomatic crisis and instigated a full-scale war in order to achieve dictatorial powers. He dabbled in the Sith teachings, long abhorred by the galactic public. These are not the actions of a "good guy."
I also find it interesting that he states he will not use the Expanded Universe because it was not in the movies. All well and good, except that in excluding the Expanded Universe one omits a lot of crucial detail about the nature of the Empire. The Expanded Universe was created with Lucas' blessing, and information relating to it can be found on the official Star Wars website. I'd say that this information is safe to use. Of course, it goes without saying that said information demonstrates beyond a doubt the inherent cruelty of the Galactic Empire. So there.
~Chazzf
No statement is true, not even this one.
For an article that is intended to be humorous, I find it a rather try and sparkless piece. Compared to the discussion in the movie "Clerks"...
Go here and search the text for "Jedi or". Sorry, I tried pasting the funny bit from the script in here, but I have given up trying to please this damn Slashdot code about how many characters per line I use. *curses loudly*.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Whoever the good (politically speaking) guys are in the Star Wars, the series is for sure no strong case for democracy.
It seems to me unprobable that a bunch of elite blue-blooded (I am refering to "the force" micro-organisms) knights and a princess (which implies a royal family) are really concerned about the reeastablishment of a senate, but rather to regain their past benefits which they probably had inherited from a previous kingdom before it turned into a republic.
On the other side they are fighting a dictator who, unlike Mussharaf of Pakistan, never even at least promised to reestablish democacy after some time and as any dictator is brutal in his ways.
In the end, if you remove the political factor then the series is about brave knights and a beatifull princess fighting against black dressed evil!
In Episode IV, we didn't see from the start why the rebels were fighting, although we began to understand when Alderaan was destroyed. In Episodes I and II, Palpatine is manipulating things behind the scenes so we don't really see everything. I figure Episode III will reveal the Palpatine regime to be unquestionably evil and murderous, not just to Jedi knights and political opposition, but to the general populace.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
I heard rumors that, before submitting this article, the author made inquiries with NASA about obtaining some of those bricks that they use to shield the shuttle on re-entry.
For those of you who don't read outside of the tech/SF industries, Pinochet made the news, not too long ago when spain had Britain arrest him for the kidnapping, torture and murder of Spanish nationals in Chile after his 'benign' rise to power, where he bombed the presidential pallace. After the death of Chile's elected president, he hunted down the supporters of the elected government, arresting, torturing and/or killing them ('disappearing').
If that's what he calls benign, I'd hate to see what he calls 'nasty'. It's not exageration to say that Pinochet's CIA-supported regime probably has more blood on his hands than AL Quaida (which also had CIA support).
And, as for Palpatine's lament that " "the bureaucrats are in charge now." He was in the middle of an attempt to (successfully) manipulate Padme into making a move that would give him the chancelorship (and eventual emperorship) of the republic.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
...Clones DVD will be out earlier than expected.
Well of course it will be out earlier; DVD cloning technology is vastly improved from 1999 when Phantom was delayed!
*Dodges rotten tomatoes*
By the way, you don't have to wait for the DVD, the VCD is available from most asian sidewalk vendors TODAY! Act now and you can even download it and burn a copy for yourself! Who cares if it looks like a guy with a pinhole camera...
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
A long, long time ago
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In a galaxy far away
Naboo was under an attack
I find me and Qui-Gon-Gin
Couldn't talk the federation in
To maybe, cutting them a little slack
Their response, it didn't thrill us
They locked the doors and tried to kill us
We ecscaped from that gas
And met Jar Jar and Boss Nass
We took a bongo from the sea
And We went to Theed to see the queen
We all wound up on Tatoine
Thats where we found this boy...
My My This here Anakin guy
Maybe Vader some may later, now hes just a small fry
He left his home and kissed his momy good bye
saying soon im gonna be a Jedi, soon im gonna be a Jedi
Did you know this junk yard slave isn't even old enough to shave
But he can use the Force they say
Oh, do you see him hitting on the queen
Though, hes just 9 and shes 14
Yea, he's probably gonna marry her some day
Well, I know he built C-3P0
And I heard how fast his pod can go
And we were broke, its true
So he made a wager or two
He was a X X X and a flying ace
And the minute Jabba started off that race
Well, I Knew hed win that race
Oh yes, it was our boy
My My This here Anakin guy
Maybe Vader some day later, now hes just a small fry
He left his home and kissed his momy good bye
saying soon im gonna be a Jedi, soon im gonna be a Jedi
Now, we finally got to Courascaunt
The Jedi council we knew would want to
see how good the boy could be
So we took him there and we told the tale how his mediclorians
were off the scale and he might fullfill that prohpecy
Oh, the council was impressed of course
Could he bring balance to the force
Hey, hes just a kid
His trainingYoda sensed in him much fear
But Qui-Gon said, Now listen here
Just stick it in your pointy ear
I still will teach this boy
My My This here Anakin guy
Maybe Vader some day later, now hes just a small fry
He left his home and kissed his momy good bye
saying soon im gonna be a Jedi, soon im gonna be a Jedi
We caught a ride back to naboo
Cause Queen Amidala wanted to
I frankly would of liked to stay
We all fought in that epic war
And it wasn't long at all before
Little hot shot flew his plane and saved the day
and in the end some Gun-Guns died
Some ships blew up and some pilots fried
Alot of XXX were XXX
Battle Droids were broken
And the Jedi I admire most
Met up with Darth Maul and now he's Toast
I'm still here and he's a ghost
I guess ill train this boy...
My My This here Anakin guy
Maybe Vader some day later, now hes just a small fry
He left his home and kissed his momy good bye
saying soon im gonna be a Jedi, soon im gonna be a Jedi
My My This here Anakin guy
Maybe Vader some day later, now hes just a small fry
He left his home and kissed his momy good bye
saying soon im gonna be a Jedi, soon im gonna be a Jedi
[NO CARRIER] dfjkhdfjkghdfjkghdfjkghdfkjghfdjkghdfkjghsdfsdfsf
Republicans are out for world domination :-)
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Bravo sir! I have not read anything this profound in a long time. It is good to see that there are still those out there who CAN think outside of normal confines. --==No matter how fast Light travels, Darkness is always there first==--
2. Dissent about, well, anything can be handled by blowing up an entire planet.
3. None of those silly women in power, hey, it's a guy thing.
4. Capital punishment, as a debate, will fade, because after all, they were "evil-doers".
5. Rather than the tedium of semi-electing the children of prior leaders, we can create eleborate black costumes of life support. Shrub for president in 2341!
6. No new taxes!... er... this week.
7. Yes, the space-trains will run on time, hauling the free-thinkers and dissenters to places like Hoth for "education".
8. That goofy geneva convention thing about physical torture can be eliminated, so folks like leia can be properly brutalized.
9. The universe can be dominated by white, human, anglo-saxon, men. (Ever see a pro-empire wookie in the death star?)
10. Droids have no rights.
Basically, the guy who wrote the article is pro-authority. 40 years ago, this is what was called "facist scum" in the US, because they thought law and order was more important than bowing down and serving a happy people.... forgetting, of course, they they have no right to say what people want, or that their role was to serve the people, not be served by the people.
Their victory over the Empire doesn't liberate the galaxy--it turns the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one.
I've heard that Lucas originally planned three movies, and was told that, in short, each of those three movies were too dense and complicated--that, in fact, each was worth three movies of its own. Hence, Lucas' originally trilogy becomes three trilogies.
Therefore, there is at least a plotline planned for three movies after "Return of the Jedi". And, like the author points out, this could be interesting and even topical: the newly re-established Republic trying to enforce rule of law over often very powerful and recalcitrant backwaters in the Galaxy. Unfortunately, no unified evil to combat, but I think it could lead to interesting storytelling; "Millenium Falcon Down", anyone?
Does anyone who collected all the figurines care to expand on the idea of movies 7, 8, and 9?
--
$tar -xvf
i like those flashy light sticks, dude, like yeah. people take insignificant things significantly.
anarchic royals
Huh? Anarchy (everybody as best as he can) and Royalty (the king rulz J00) are opposite concepts... What are anarchic royals? Communist libertarians?
This is the mail that I sent the Standard:
I enjoyed Johnathan Last's musings on the Star Wars universe immensely, it
does rather occur to me - as a Briton - that this is something of a post
9/11 viewpoint. Here's why, before 9/11 the USA could look back with pride
on both their acheivements in WWII and (to a lesser degree) in the American
War of Independence. In both cases the US painted herself (accurately or
not) as the freedom loving opponent of the tyranny of empire. The British in
the former war and the German & Japanese in the latter. Skipping over the
nightmare of Vietnam (although this might perhaps have given a clue to the
inevitability of a 9/11-like eventuality) the Gulf War could also have been
looked at in similar terms, though it's a much tougher fit when both oil and
the incredibly undemocratic Saudi and Kuwaiti regimes enter the picture.
But where is the USA now? Undoubtedly the Empire itself. Imagine the city of
New York as the Death Star itself, and those precisely planted Boeings as
X-Wing fighters. The Force may not have been intended as a martyrs creed,
but Obi-Wan Kenobi was a suicide bomber without ANY doubt. And what an
economic weapon NYC is, certainly able to destroy a country's economy at
will - Argentina provides our best recent example.
Pretty horrible, isn't it? George Bush as the Emperor himself? Colin Powell
as Darth Vader? Rumsfeld as Grand Moff Tarkin? Surely not?
I look at the US-backed oppression in the Middle East, the oil producing
potential of Afghanistan and the recent (US backed??) events in Venezuela and I have to
wonder.
That was classic intercourse!
Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do business with. They collect taxes and patrol the skies. They try to stop organized crime (in the form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts). The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.
Much as I disapprove of Pinochet; and agree that on an absolute scale he is a pretty despicable character, he was relatively benign when compared to dictators. He killed thousands of people and not millions like, Pol-Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Mao.
Further more, nature is entirely dictatorial, kills millions of people a year, and to quote my Physics teacher 'nothing kills like the laws of physics'. Does that make Nature or Physics evil or immoral ? I would suggest that dictatorship is actually amoral, neither good or evil, it simply is.
It's Dunkirk, Scbwachkopf, not Dunkurk. Duenkirchen is it's authentic German name. You may note that life in the 3rd Reich wasn't all that bad. They had clean boulevards, virtually no crime, no racial tension among citizens except of course for the lawful tensions between citizens and undesirables, free and unrestrained capitalism (this capitalism was so capitalist that they ended up with a lot of monopolies). If only they had invested more into their highly impressive technological advantage, chances would have been they had the first nukes. In which case, you would (if you qualify, of course ;-) ) be able to enjoy all the benefits of a citizen of the 3rd Reich I listed above and more instead of having to put up with a Republic, which to put it into Senator Palpatine's words: "simply doesn't work!"
I noticed something in the replies posted to this point. The vast majority are in defense of the canonical reading of Star Wars. This is understandable, given the constitution of the /. community. A significant number of them are simply unwilling to let our favorite heros become the Bad Guys. This is understandable too. But at least that many are given over to a dangerous but common assumption: democracy is inherently superior to other forms of government. This is inexcusable. What Lucas has really done is appeal to a deep seated artifact of Western - especially American - consciousness, the idea that democracy and individualism are morally superior to other brands of social order.
Historically, representative governments have fared exceptionally poorly: Athens was simply a pretty cool city until it *established an empire* by forcing other city-states to pay tribute and fight its wars. The Roman Senate was ruled by a powerful group of aristocrats who could not deal with the social and economic realities of anything larger than a city. And even they were well on their way to regional control by the time good old Julius stepped in to fix the mess - and they killed him for it. The only historical representative government that has had any measure of success has been Britain, and the only people who could vote were wealthy landholders, and then only to create an advisory body to the hereditary king. Our own system sure as hell doesn't work. Sure, every once in a while we get to participate in the purely symbolic act of voting, but hey: do you want the puppet on the Left or the puppet on the Right? Democracy ain't all it's cracked up to be, people. When reading Mr. Last's article again, try to remember that.
STAR WARS RETURNS today with its fifth installment, "Attack of the Clones." There will be talk of the Force and the Dark Side and the epic morality of George Lucas's series. But the truth is that from the beginning, Lucas confused the good guys with the bad. The deep lesson of Star Wars is that the Empire is good.
It's a difficult leap to make--embracing Darth Vader and the Emperor over the plucky and attractive Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia--but a careful examination of the facts, sorted apart from Lucas's off-the-shelf moral cues, makes a quite convincing case.
First, an aside: For the sake of this discussion, I've considered only the history gleaned from the actual Star Wars films, not the Expanded Universe. If you know what the Expanded Universe is and want to argue that no discussion of Star Wars can be complete without considering material outside the canon, that's fine. However, it's always been my view that the comic books and novels largely serve to clean up Lucas's narrative and philosophical messes. Therefore, discussions of intrinsic intent must necessarily revolve around the movies alone. You may disagree, but please don't e-mail me about it.
If you don't know what the Expanded Universe is, well, uh, neither do I.
I. The Problems with the Galactic Republic
At the beginning of the Star Wars saga, the known universe is governed by the Galactic Republic. The Republic is controlled by a Senate, which is, in turn, run by an elected chancellor who's in charge of procedure, but has little real power.
Scores of thousands of planets are represented in the Galactic Senate, and as we first encounter it, it is sclerotic and ineffectual. The Republic has grown over many millennia to the point where there are so many factions and disparate interests, that it is simply too big to be governable. Even the Republic's staunchest supporters recognize this failing: In "The Phantom Menace," Queen Amidala admits, "It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions." In "Attack of the Clones," young Anakin Skywalker observes that it simply "doesn't work."
The Senate moves so slowly that it is powerless to stop aggression between member states. In "The Phantom Menace" a supra-planetary alliance, the Trade Federation (think of it as OPEC to the Galactic Republic's United Nations), invades a planet and all the Senate can agree to do is call for an investigation.
Like the United Nations, the Republic has no armed forces of its own, but instead relies on a group of warriors, the Jedi knights, to "keep the peace." The Jedi, while autonomous, often work in tandem with the Senate, trying to smooth over quarrels and avoid conflicts. But the Jedi number only in the thousands--they cannot protect everyone.
What's more, it's not clear that they should be "protecting" anyone. The Jedi are Lucas's great heroes, full of Zen wisdom and righteous power. They encourage people to "use the Force"--the mystical energy which is the source of their power--but the truth, revealed in "The Phantom Menace," is that the Force isn't available to the rabble. The Force comes from midi-chlorians, tiny symbiotic organisms in people's blood, like mitochondria. The Force, it turns out, is an inherited, genetic trait. If you don't have the blood, you don't get the Force. Which makes the Jedi not a democratic militia, but a royalist Swiss guard.
And an arrogant royalist Swiss guard, at that. With one or two notable exceptions, the Jedi we meet in Star Wars are full of themselves. They ignore the counsel of others (often with terrible consequences), and seem honestly to believe that they are at the center of the universe. When the chief Jedi record-keeper is asked in "Attack of the Clones" about a planet she has never heard of, she replies that if it's not in the Jedi archives, it doesn't exist. (The planet in question does exist, again, with terrible consequences.)
In "Attack of the Clones," a mysterious figure, Count Dooku, leads a separatist movement of planets that want to secede from the Republic. Dooku promises these confederates smaller government, unlimited free trade, and an "absolute commitment to capitalism." Dooku's motives are suspect--it's not clear whether or not he believes in these causes. However, there's no reason to doubt the motives of the other separatists--they seem genuinely to want to make a fresh start with a government that isn't bloated and dysfunctional.
The Republic, of course, is eager to quash these separatists, but they never make a compelling case--or any case, for that matter--as to why, if they are such a freedom-loving regime, these planets should not be allowed to check out of the Republic and take control of their own destinies.
II. The Empire
We do not yet know the exact how's and why's, but we do know this: At some point between the end of Episode II and the beginning of Episode IV, the Republic is replaced by an Empire. The first hint comes in "Attack of the Clones," when the Senate's Chancellor Palpatine is granted emergency powers to deal with the separatists. It spoils very little to tell you that Palpatine eventually becomes the Emperor. For a time, he keeps the Senate in place, functioning as a rubber-stamp, much like the Roman imperial senate, but a few minutes into Episode IV, we are informed that the he has dissolved the Senate, and that "the last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."
Lucas wants the Empire to stand for evil, so he tells us that the Emperor and Darth Vader have gone over to the Dark Side and dresses them in black.
But look closer. When Palpatine is still a senator, he says, "The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good." At one point he laments that "the bureaucrats are in charge now."
Palpatine believes that the political order must be manipulated to produce peace and stability. When he mutters, "There is no civility, there is only politics," we see that at heart, he's an esoteric Straussian.
Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do business with. They collect taxes and patrol the skies. They try to stop organized crime (in the form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts). The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.
Also, unlike the divine-right Jedi, the Empire is a meritocracy. The Empire runs academies throughout the galaxy (Han Solo begins his career at an Imperial academy), and those who show promise are promoted, often rapidly. In "The Empire Strikes Back" Captain Piett is quickly promoted to admiral when his predecessor "falls down on the job."
And while it's a small point, the Empire's manners and decorum speak well of it. When Darth Vader is forced to employ bounty hunters to track down Han Solo, he refuses to address them by name. Even Boba Fett, the greatest of all trackers, is referred to icily as "bounty hunter." And yet Fett understands the protocol. When he captures Solo, he calls him "Captain Solo." (Whether this is in deference to Han's former rank in the Imperial starfleet, or simply because Han owns and pilots his own ship, we don't know. I suspect it's the former.)
But the most compelling evidence that the Empire isn't evil comes in "The Empire Strikes Back" when Darth Vader is battling Luke Skywalker. After an exhausting fight, Vader is poised to finish Luke off, but he stays his hand. He tries to convert Luke to the Dark Side with this simple plea: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. . . . Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." It is here we find the real controlling impulse for the Dark Side and the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or destruction or "evil." It wants order.
None of which is to say that the Empire isn't sometimes brutal. In Episode IV, Imperial stormtroopers kill Luke's aunt and uncle and Grand Moff Tarkin orders the destruction of an entire planet, Alderaan. But viewed in context, these acts are less brutal than they initially appear. Poor Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen reach a grisly end, but only after they aid the rebellion by hiding Luke and harboring two fugitive droids. They aren't given due process, but they are traitors.
The destruction of Alderaan is often cited as ipso facto proof of the Empire's "evilness" because it seems like mass murder--planeticide, even. As Tarkin prepares to fire the Death Star, Princess Leia implores him to spare the planet, saying, "Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons." Her plea is important, if true.
But the audience has no reason to believe that Leia is telling the truth. In Episode IV, every bit of information she gives the Empire is willfully untrue. In the opening, she tells Darth Vader that she is on a diplomatic mission of mercy, when in fact she is on a spy mission, trying to deliver schematics of the Death Star to the Rebel Alliance. When asked where the Alliance is headquartered, she lies again.
Leia's lies are perfectly defensible--she thinks she's serving the greater good--but they make her wholly unreliable on the question of whether or not Alderaan really is peaceful and defenseless. If anything, since Leia is a high-ranking member of the rebellion and the princess of Alderaan, it would be reasonable to suspect that Alderaan is a front for Rebel activity or at least home to many more spies and insurgents like Leia.
Whatever the case, the important thing to recognize is that the Empire is not committing random acts of terror. It is engaged in a fight for the survival of its regime against a violent group of rebels who are committed to its destruction.
III. After the Rebellion
As we all know from the final Star Wars installment, "Return of the Jedi," the rebellion is eventually successful. The Emperor is assassinated, Darth Vader abdicates his post and dies, the central governing apparatus of the Empire is destroyed in a spectacular space battle, and the rebels rejoice with their small, annoying Ewok friends. But what happens next?
(There is a raft of literature on this point, but, as I said at the beginning, I'm going to ignore it because it doesn't speak to Lucas's original intent.)
In Episode IV, after Grand Moff Tarkin announces that the Imperial Senate has been abolished, he's asked how the Emperor can possibly hope to keep control of the galaxy. "The regional governors now have direct control over territories," he says. "Fear will keep the local systems in line."
So under Imperial rule, a large group of regional potentates, each with access to a sizable army and star destroyers, runs local affairs. These governors owe their fealty to the Emperor. And once the Emperor is dead, the galaxy will be plunged into chaos.
In all of the time we spend observing the Rebel Alliance, we never hear of their governing strategy or their plans for a post-Imperial universe. All we see are plots and fighting. Their victory over the Empire doesn't liberate the galaxy--it turns the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one.
Which makes the rebels--Lucas's heroes--an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back.
I'll take the Empire.
Jonathan V. Last is online editor of The Weekly Standard.
> Hong Kong of the Star Wars universe.
Chinese takeaway anyone?
Hong Kong is not free by a long shot. (British rule only became less restrictive when they knew they were going to lose Hong Kong).
It occurs to me that the Empire wants to bring order to the galaxy just as the Borg in Star Trek wish to do the same there.
Personally I have always asked myself if we know everything about the rebellion, especially who supported it. These poor rebels are hunted all the way through the galaxy by the Imperial fleet, there is no planet in the Empire that supports them openly and no central base. Yet it is not a "Grab a gun and let's go over to the palace and overthrow the king" kind of revolution. They have a quite impressive fleet of starships in Episode VI that probably takes years to build. Where are those coming from?
Maybe be the rebels are supplied by someone outside of the Empire like we try to destabilize regimes by supporting the opposition. There is mor e about this rebellion than we know ... :)
But then again I could be completely wrong. May be they are just a bunch of freedom fighters with homemade weaponry. "Come over and bring all your scrap metal, we are going to build a star destroyer in the backyard ..."
Line 9: Argument of type SIGNATURE expected.
I'm fairly sure that's an exaggeration.
Correct me if my history is wrong here, but I understand that the taxes levied by the British on stamps, molasses, and other products reached oppressive proportions before the colonists rebelled.
It's despicable to start a war because the 18th century equivalent of Donald Trump (George Washington, one of the richest men in the country at the time) is deprived of some small portion of his riches. It's not nearly as unethical to fight because the average farmer just had his income effectively cut by a third.
I vaguely remember a Thundercats episode (yeah yeah, I know) where there were 2 different creatures. One was a brutish, Sasquatch type of creature, and the other was a slender robot with a soothing voice. Essentially, robot was the "evil" character and the morale of the episode was that you shouldn't judge someone on what he/she looks like.
Thunder, Thunder, Thundercats, hoooOOOOOO!!!
Our top story tonight, royal security sources tell us that a radical terrorist group in the Americas, has struck once again at key royal economic interests in Boston Harbor."
"Our source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that terrorists, using small rowboats, carried out a cowardly surprise attack against a large tea shipment. The source reports that the terrorists were beaten back and that the vessel sustained only minor damage."
"However, we at BNN have received unconfirmed reports that all of the tea in the harbor was, in fact, destroyed by the terrorist attack. Only one royal commander reportedly managed to escape from the vessel, and is now leading a manhunt to track down and destroy the terrorists responsible for this attack."
As usual, the /. hordes overreact to what is obviously a humourous piece. Pinochet a benign dicatator? I can't believe anybody here fell for that one.
This was made in a post yesterday in CmdrTaco's review of SW EP II. You can find the post here
Just thought I would give the first person to bring this insightful article credit
forget comparing Star Wars to the American Revolution, look at Israel vs. the Palestinians. The palestinians are a rebel alliance devoted to nothing more than destroying the "evil" empire of israel (and the united states). their interpretation of evil is anything which contradicts the teachings of their Force-like religion known as Islam. 50 years ago Israel came in and took the Palestinians' land and imposed law and order on a region in chaos. the Palestinians fought back with terrorist attacks on military and civilian targets. Israel counters with invasions, assassinations, and wholesale destruction of buildings suspected of harboring terrorists, just like Alderaan. as a challenge to all those digital junkies out there, how about trying to change the music of one of the original pics, say Episode IV? give the Empire some uplifting, majestic, patriotic music. give the rebels something sinister and treacherous. i'd like to see if that change alone would completely reverse the "moral teachings" of the movie.
"You want a toe? I can get you a toe by three o'clock... with nail polish."
IT'S A MOVIE! Call it flamebait if you want, but comparing the Empire to Nazi Germany or whatever is completely ridiculous. Anyone who would confuse Lucas' version of his reality with actual historical events is missing the whole point. Star Wars, while it does tell a moral story of good v. evil, was created to entertain. Go see the movie, but stop all the comparisons between the series and "real life."
That guy has some good points, actually he has.
By the way, did you ever realize that Saddam Hussein's regime had managed to use the resources and the profits of oil trade for the benefit of the population, until the early nineties ? Iraq had one of the best education and health systems in the Middle-East till 1991, and a strongly established middle-class, with much less poverty in his country than in the surrounding regions.
Saddam was just plain *right* to invade Kuwait in order to share the benefits of oil resource among the citizens (by giving decent wages for workers, for instance) and kick the selfish royals (or Emirs, whatever you call them) out of the place. For indeed, if the GNP per head in Kuwait is higher than everywhere else in the world, there are actually 60% of the population living with less than one dollar a day. Saddam might have brought more justice and social welfare to that country if some GI-knights had not stopped him right on his way, killing 300 000 civilians in the process (and more now due to the embargo).
Oh, forget about the few thousand Kurds that were killed by Saddam during his reign, they're all evil terrorists anyway, order has to be maintained, yadda yadda...
</Tongue In Cheek>
Er, what was it on that other thread about moral relativism ? Must have missed that one...
Lucas' whole point about evil seems to be that evil is what happens when good can't get its act together and order outweighs freedom. Yes, the Jedi are a bunch of self-righteous pricks; that's what happens when you have an elite that doesn't necessarily have to earn its status.
No, the motives of the Rebellion aren't really spelled out. Nor is the precise reason for the existence of the Rebellion in the first place. But that's somewhat outside the scope of the movies; the simple fact is that for Tarkin to destroy Alderaan would probably be an act of insubordination if done without the direct assent of the Emperor. At the very least, Tarkin's actions would be equivalent to recreating the My Lai massacre on Hanoi. The evil here: order at all costs, and massive retribution, even genocide, as a political tool.
I don't know if Last is truly the fascist he comes off as in the article (he's probably trolling; handwaving over genocide and the like comes off as being some sort of satire), and he does make a few good points, but the fact remains that order at all costs is ultimately either stagnating or outright destructive.
/Brian
I couldn't figure out whether he was being tongue in cheek when he claimed that "Pinochet was a relatively benign dictator". Pinochet ordered the murder (with the help and blessing of the CIA) of the elected President, he had literaly thousands of supposed "dissidents" (anyone, who in the USA would just have been complaining) arrested, tortured and killed, including, without discrimination, many foreign nationals (Americans, Spanish and French citizens). This is why he is a wanted man in Spain and France. His reign of terror was only exceeded in South America by the Argetnian military Junta who murdered over 30 000 of their own citizens in the space of about ten years.
But perhaps it's funny, right? Perhaps he is one of these people who favour a "strong government" in times of emergency, irrespective of what that government is doing or the fact that he might be one of the first ones to be put up against the wall.
That is a link in serious need of a spoiler warning. I, like many people, haven't seen "Attack of the clones", and would like to know as little as possible about it when I first do.
Sigh. Out of all the analogies in the world I can think of, the OPEC/UN one has to be the worst. How about these Federation/Naboo candidates (it doesn't matter who the republic is - it never really did):
- America - Vietnam
- America - Cuba
- America - Nicaragua
- America - Iraq
Oh yeah - I forgot - the land of baseball and apple pie is automatically the good guys...The list goes on and on and on...
Why?
:)
Because Palpatine is a crochety old fart who's also a sarcastic bastard.
"Oh, I'm afraid that the shield generator will be operational when your friends arrive.." (insert shit-eating grin)
That's the kind of person I want as a ruler.
He's a man with a plan, and he doesn't take campaign donations.
What the hell more could you ask for? (Aside for better armor for the military. I mean, c'mon, it can't even stop an Ewok-thrown rock!)
Plus, he'd be great at parties, what with that lightning from the fingertips thing. I bet if you put your hands on his head, your hair stands up.
(Just don't get into a drinking contest with Vader.)
This author characterizes some events from this movie in a, um, novel way. First, the destruction of Alderaan as the rightful putting down of a probable nest of violent rebels. From one perspective what he says is true. However, the people of Alderaan were not given a chance to declare or denounce their loyalty to the Emperor. On a planet of millions, it is reasonable to assume that their were a wide variety of opinions. Certainly some people supported the Emperor, just as others obviously denounced him. His supporters were executed as traitors for a crime they did not commit.
Second, if Darth Vader and the Emperor really wanted order, then they would not summarily execute millions of people. All governments that are worthy of the name provide their constituents with something called due process. Now, due process is not always as rigorous as it is in the United States. But in any fair government, there is always a set of rules that govern how the authorities can proceed to the decision to incarcerate or execute. Again, there was no process given to the denizens of Alderaan. Those people were executed as traitors for a crime they either did not commit or were not proven to have committed. That is something, but it is not order. Wearing the veil of government does not automatically make the Emperor's actions legal. For example, Hitler lawfully took power in Germany. In everything he did, he made sure that there was legislation, the imprimatur of legality, to support the action. However, his government lacked legitimacy. Nothing that the Nazis did should have been considered binding legal authority, because the Nazis did not have a legitimate claim to govern. Legitimacy comes from support of the governed (by, for, and of the people, remember?), not from standing up and declaring one's self emperor and thus the sole source of all legal authority. Legitimacy also comes from a certain moral authority. A government that executes its citizens like playthings, in a back room judgment about the greater good, lacks the moral authority to govern.
Third, the author characterizes Piett's promotion as a laudable example of merit rising into its own right. But we can assume then that his superior, Admiral Ozzel I think, did not rise to his lofty position through incompetence. No, Darth Vader executed Ozzel, because Vader had, to put it lightly, an anger management problem. If you ask any soldier worth his salt whether he would want to rise in rank based on his own merit, that soldier would enthusiastically say yes. But if you ask that soldier if he would like to serve in a force where field promotions were conducted by the commander-in-chief after he executed a top-rank officer for a minor mistake, that same soldier would give a resounding no. Meritocracy does not mean rewarding incompetence with execution. Nor does meritocracy mean that the rewards of life are available on the whim of one's superiors. Darth Vader's system of promotion is about as far from meritocracy as one can go.
Fourth, the author characterizes the Republic as eager to quash the separatists. Actually, the senators that we have come to associate with peace and justice (Amidala and Organa) are the main opponents of forming an army to counter the separatists. The only members of the Republic that are eager to quash the separatists are the ones under the direct influence of the guy that is funding both the separatists and the clone army in a brazen attempt (at least to the audience) to engineer a crisis that will allow him to seize total power. It's the burning of the Reichstag. First, Darth Sidious engineers the separation movement. Then, he secretly orders the construction of a clone army. Then, as Palpatine, he engineers the discovery of the separatist army. This discovery turns the separatists into something other than a bunch of systems that want small government--they become a force that is ready to attack the Replublic. Then, Palpatine is able to manipulate a weak-minded senator into pushing him into power in service of the cause of defending against the separatists. Palpatine is then able to call on the thing that he wanted all along: his army of efficient, obedient killing machines. The separatists are not earnest capitalists seeking the freedom of a laissez-faire government to bring themselves prosperity, they are dupes of a man with designs on nothing less than absolute power. By the time Palpatine is done he will have destroyed those separatists right along with the Republic.
I could go on, but you get the point. The author has taken the Star Wars story and used it in an attempt to weave his own little tale about how big government is bad. But by glossing over atrocities such as the wholesale murder of millions of people, he reveals that what he really thinks is that he ought to be the government because he knows better than all us stupid, little people. We should all do as he says, and if we don't like it, he won't mind killing us in the name of the greater good (of which he is sole arbiter). Frankly, I'll take freedom.
As told in episode VI, the emperor asks Luke to give into the Dark side of the force. "...let the hate run through you...". If the empire and the "dark" Jedis are using hate as a basic life value, the empire must be evil.
It is not possible (I hope) to build a society on hate. The idea might be good, but a society build on hate would probably be more destructive than constructive. The end result would be a community that would slowly crumple...
But otherwise I think the article is quite good. Especially the end comments of what to follow. I agree the galaxy would probably be thrown into chaos.
The "Foundation" book series (by Isaac Asimov) is based on the idea of an empire that collapses. It's a quite good description of such an situation (but in the Star Wars there is no foundation.)
-:) Oh no - not again.
www.rednebula.com
...Wicked (the life and times of the Wicked Witch of the West) by Gregory MacGuire. It is a funny book and a fun read. Oz from the other side, if you will. Well worth the hours!!!
Your history is wrong. The taxes imposed were less than a quarter of what it cost to defend the Americas from the French and Spanish (who were responsible for a couple of massacres of colonists, and proper massacres, not the Boston sort). Stamp Act taxes were never collected. Taxes increased almost immediately after the Revolution. Oh, and very few of the colonists actually supported the war: most of the combatants were the aforementioned French and Spanish, who were at war with Britain in Europe. Washington had a hell of a time stopping all his troops deserting.
I'm posting as AC because I have firewall problems (and posting bug reports also runs into firewall problems), not because I want to hide. So, if your history is better than mine, please send flames to miles_gould[at]yahoo.com. Or post here.
If it wasn't for the musical and obvious visual clues, we would have a hard time believing who was good vs. who was evil.
This may be over-stating the obvious, but IMHO, the story itself isn't that obvious.
Hmm...
A long time ago, on a message board far, far away...
It is a period of flame war. Rebel thinkers, striking from their hidden message board, have won their first victory agains the Marketing Empire of Lucasfilm.
During the battle, Rebel geeks managed to come up with a new interpretation of the Empire's ultimate weapon, Episode I, a film so boring it could put entire audiences to sleep.
Pursued by the Empire's sinister lawyers, Princess Leia races home on her encrypted email, custodian of the new thoughts that can liberate her people and restore freedom of speech to the galaxy...
Well, Nazis wanted order too. I think the author is missing the point that the Rebel Alliance wanted to return freedom to the people of the galaxy.
To prove that imitation is indeed the sincerest form of blatant copyright violation, Lucas premiered his "film" at this week's Orange County Star Wars convention. Lucas' mother, in whose basement he has lived for the last twelve years, is reportedly proud of her son's accomplishment. However, she also felt the love story between Padmé and Anakin was forced and poorly written.
Like most fan-generated "films," George's project was not a film at all. Lucas admits that he shot everything on digital video, about one quarter the image density of standard 35mm film. While he maintains that the choice was an artistic one, the issue of cost is undeniable.
During the screening, many patrons complained of the blurry look of the film print. A defensive Lucas reminded them that it looked much better on his computer monitor.
"If you look at color retention and light response, it would have looked much better on film," offered local film buff Wes Antilles. "I would have let him borrow my Super16 camera. He's too proud to ask, I guess."
The film suffers other ills common to fan films. Even the B-movie title, Attack of the Clones, is a dead giveaway of its amateur origin.
While some critics say that story elements take a back seat to flashy special effects, it would be difficult to argue that Lucas underwrote the film. The first two thirds of the film consist of nothing but mouths moving, gums flapping.
"I've seen this kind of thing ruin otherwise promising films," says UCLA film professor Leonard Calrissian. "Independent films often turn out too 'talky' because amateur directors are often too in love with their script to cut unnecessary or forced dialogue."
The most common complaint so far is that the film is not very much fun to watch. One walks away from Attack of the Clones wondering for whom it was made. Like most independent/amateur cinema, it is likely that the movie exists mostly for its own sake.
"I've got lots of other friends who do this kind of thing," said one local independent filmmaker. "Every time I run into them, they demand that I watch their latest project. It's getting to the point where I'm avoiding people. I haven't talked to George for over a year."
Unable to pay real actors and having run out of available friends, Lucas had to create many of the characters digitally. In spite of their obvious unreality, these digimuppets do a great deal to mask the awful acting and terrible direction common to such efforts.
There is no word yet whether the owners of the Star Wars trademark and franchise will do with Mr. Lucas. Clearly Attack of the Clones violates more than a dozen heavily-guarded copyrights while creating unsanctioned and [according to some] inconsistent backstory for established Star Wars characters.
In spite of its problems, most audience members agreed that Attack of the Clones was one of the best five fan films they had seen this year. Some even went so far as to compare it with the much-loved The Lego Strikes Back from 1996. Not bad for a first effort.
Inspired by the slightly-warmer-than-luke response to Attack of the Clones, Lucas announced plans to begin work on a sequel- as soon as he can come up with a better title.
[from ridiculopathy.com]
Dunkirk never ever ever was German AFAIK. In the middle ages it was in the county of Flanders, which was a dependency op the french crown. The original name was Duinkerke (the church in the dunes), which was francised into Dunkerke.
Some English names for other peace makers are the class of ship known as the "Destroyer", air craft names such as "Vampire", "Mosquito", and "Hellcat". With a little more reflection, you will see the truth and utility of such names.
Remember the destruction of the Death Star killed many innocent sentient beings. Did you know that there was a day care center on the Death Star? No you did not! Nor did you care about all of those innocent children, just like the Oklahoma City bombing. Have you ever considered the environmental consequences destroying the Death Star had? It was a global extinction level event. A whole planet perrished. See what your petty morals get you when you fight law and order?
Feel the power of hatred, let it make you strong and one with the Emperor. Fight for what is orderly and strong.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You're right
...to use the World Trade Center to destroy innocent planets with it's massive planet-destroying deathray. I'm an American but I cannot defend my own government in these genocidal actions and I understand your point of view.
Clearly the World Trade Center was a military installation, armed to the teeth with laser turrets and weapons of mass destruction and thus was a legitimate target for the loveable ragtag group of muslim rebels.
The Vietnam comparisons are also striking, though the 1,000,000 vietnamese who died in that war may disagree about how much "creaming" went on. Also those of you who have seen the Jedi DVD extras know there is that one deleted scene where the Ewoks capture a storm trooper, starve him and pierce his eardrum with a sharpened stick of bamboo in order to get him to talk about troop movements. Clearly a parallel there.
Phallic Symbols in LOTR
Reminds me of the time I came in late on one of the Star Trek movies and missed the set up. What I saw was a bunch of handsome/cute creatures (the starship) beating up the ugly Klingons for no reason whatsoever. I came to the conclusion that this was how hollywood sees the world: the triumph of the beautiful.
I found your comment interesting if for no other reason than I found myself counting how many humans I saw killed in Episode II. Not during the movie, but afterwards as I was reflecting on it. As near as I can tell only 2 humans were shown being killed. One of them was Padme's decoy in the beginning, the other was Anakin's mother at the raider camp. Both of them died in the arms of a beloved friend or family member.
Everyone else I saw in the movie being killed was either an ugly alien, a droid, or someone who was covered head to toe in battle armor to hide their "human-ness." Did anybody else notice this?
And before you comment about Fett's hired assasin, remember that she was a "changeling" alien, not a human.
Spiderman v. Pentagon
Basically, the guy who came up with this theory claims that by spinning a superconducting disk (of a "secret formula" and composition) really fast, he can shield objects from gravity under certain conditions. That sounds more like science fiction than fact to me. Does anybody know if NASA has given this man any more credibility?
I always thought that "Captain" was the rank he acquired after the Battle of Yavin, or shortly before Hoth, in the Rebel Army.
dinner: it's what's for beer
Actually, I just saw a History Channel special on "The Nazi Bomb". They argue convincingly that Heisenberg, leading the German efforts, didn't really *want* a bomb developed, and deliberately put forth less than his best effort. After he was captured by the Allies post-surrender, and learned of the American bomb, he took 3 days to (sight unseen) reconstruct how we had done it.
So, had Heisenberg wanted to, he probably could have built the bomb, but he was convinced himself that it was "too complex and too expensive", and so he himself convinced Germany not to push strongly on the nuclear efforts. The Germans were never serious about it, although the scientists at Los Alamos were convinced that the US was seriously behind in it's efforts (because Germany had all the means and materials at it's disposal long before we had even begun Manhatten).
The fact that we had all the Jewish scientists here in America (and that those scientists seriously feared the Nazis getting the bomb) meant *we* did take it seriously, and went full-steam ahead.
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
Why bother with exotic killers like Hitler, Stalin Potty Pol, Mayo, etc when such good second rate thugs can be found in this hemisphere? Pinochet can best be classed with Castro, Norriaga and others who killed hundreds to thousands, stifled free speech, and made themselves the law. We might consider Pinochet less awful than his political opponents when we consider where we would rather live today, Cuba, Nicaragua or Chile. Chile for me, thanks but no thanks, I'm happier here in the USA.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The Empire kind of gives new meaning to "Compassionate Conservatism", hey? :)
-- james
I would consider this canon, even if it was left on the cutting-room floor:
BIGGS: I thought you were going to the Academy next term. You'll get
your chance to get off this rock.
LUKE: Not likely! I had to cancel my application. There has been a lot
of unrest among the Sandpeople since you left...they've even raided
the outskirts of Anchorhead.
BIGGS: Your uncle could hold off a whole colony of Sandpeople with one
blaster.
LUKE: I know, but he's got enough vaporators going to make the place
pay off. He needs me for just one more season. I can't leave him now.
BIGGS: I feel for you, Luke, you're going to have to learn what seems
to be important or what really is important. What good is all your
uncle's work if it's taken over by the Empire?...You know they're
starting to nationalize commerce in the central systems...it won't be
long before your uncle is merely a tenant, slaving for the greater
glory of the Empire.
LUKE: It couldn't happen here. You said it yourself. The Empire won't
bother with this rock.
BIGGS: Things always change.
LUKE: I wish I was going...Are you going to be around long?
BIGGS: No, I'm leaving in the morning...
LUKE: Then I guess I won't see you.
BIGGS: Maybe someday...I'll keep a lookout.
LUKE: Well, I'll be at the Academy next season...after that who knows.
I won't be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet, that's for sure...Take
care of yourself, you'll always be the best friend I've got.
BIGGS: So long, Luke.
Biggs turns away from his old friend and heads toward the
power station.
Just before the Battle of Yavin, Luke runs into Biggs and they gab a
bit, then Red Leader shows up and mentions that he had met Anakin,
Luke's father.
-------
Seems to me the Empire was controlling and anti-free enterprise.
dinner: it's what's for beer
This is a satirical piece that is meant to bring attention to current affairs.
There are plenty of people who are willing to trade freedom for order and security today, right in the United States and other western nations.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
who helped a lot, claiming to help an oppressed
nation (when Great Britain of the time was way
more democratic than France) just for the fun of fighting their hereditarian Nemesis just once more, eventually defeating the Rosbeefs (even at sea thanks to d'Estaing !), and contributed weapons (Beaumarchais) and money to turn a militia uprising into a full-blown independence war.
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
By the way welcome to the Corporate States of America, under the advertisement on which it subverts, one Board of Directors under Corporate Law, with beer and pretzels for all (and freedom for few**originally in the rough draft but only because elison and gates were stoned, eisner and lucas the drunks smacked them back into reality).
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
The war against disorder, greed and terrorism have no end. Palpatine used the forces of the Universe to his advantage as any comp^H^H^H^H reasonable man would. "Engineered" a crisis you say? Bah, greedy little men without vision made that crisis, Palpatine simply used it to bring order to the Universe. It is cruel to alow people the freedom to torture each other. Only the power of the force can accomplish unity, benevolence and order.
Your message has been monitored. Consider your ways or you will pay.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
that there is no such thing as good and evil, just different points of view.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
"We will continue to fight these terrorists, and the rogue governments who harbor them, until the universe is safe, once and for all, and the security of the Neo-New Cosmik Order ensured."
It was one year ago today that the Death Star, perhaps the greatest symbol of the Empire's might, was destroyed in an attack by fanatic Rebels, who used small, single-person crafts to infiltrate seemingly impenetrable defenses. Thousands of mourners were on hand to remember and pay tribute to the victims and their families.
"We lost our innocence that day," reflected one mourner. "I guess we thought we were immune from the kind of violence that happens in other galaxies. We were wrong." "I lost hundreds of buddies that day," said one teary-eyed Stormtrooper. "Guys whose only crime was trying make the Universe a safer place."
Although the day was colored by sadness, the mourners found some relief in the news of a decisive victory over the Rebels. In an attack led by Darth Vader, Empire forces were able to rout hundreds of Rebels from a network of caves underneath the surface of the planet Hoth. "We're not sure we got them all," says a Vader spokesman. "There are a lot of places to hide in those caves. But we've delivered a powerful blow to the terrorist's infrastructure, that's for sure. Today, the Empire has struck back."
Initial reports are unclear as to the fate of Luke Skywalker, a hero among the Rebels, who is rumored to have delivered the fatal blow to the Death Star. Skywalker, a former desert-dweller from the planet Tattooine, became a part of the Rebellion after family members were killed. Skywalker was trained by a militant wing of the Rebels, known as "Jedi Knights." Fanatical in their religious beliefs, the Jedi Knights claim to derive their power from the mystical "Force."
It's believed that Skywalker was specifically trained by infamous terrorist O bin Wankanobi. Wankanobi, occasionally called "Ben" and easily recognized by his bearded visage and long, flowing robes, achieved near-martyr status among the Rebels after his death last year during a spy mission. His more fervent followers believe that Wan Kenobi lives on within them today, some even claiming to hear his voice during times of duress.
The attack on the Death Star came shortly after the Empire's destruction of Alderstaan, a planet whose government was known to harbor terrorists. Responding to criticism over the total annihilation of the planet, Vader stated, "There is no middle ground in the War on Terror. Those who harbor terrorists are terrorists themselves. Alderaan was issued ample warning. The fight for continuing Freedom is often burdened by terrible cost."
The cost of this war can still be seen today in the continuing efforts to build a coalition government on Tattooine. Longstanding animosities among the planets various ethnic groups, including the Jawas, Tusken Raiders and scattered human settlers, have been an impediment to the peace process. The Empire continues to maintain a small peace keeping force until a provisional government is finally in place.
Much of the difficulty in fighting the Rebel forces stems from their lack of a central organizing structure. "They don't play by the traditional rules of war," complained one spokesman. "They come in all shapes and sizes, united only by their single-minded desire to destroy the Empire before it destroys them."
The Emperor closed his comments today by stating that "the cowardly attack on the Death Star left a deep scar on the Empire. However, we will not stop fighting until every last evildoer has been brought to justice." He paused for several moments, wiping away a tear and then added with determination, "We will never forget."
"I wish we could all just get along," said one of the mourners. "But it's hard to offer an olive branch to a cult of religious fanatics whose main tool is violence and who insist on calling us the Dark Side."
(I posted this once before, but it seemed appropriate to post it again :-)
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
> Terrorists attack civilian populations for the PRIME
> reason of sowing (duh) terror.
Well, that description fits quite well the carpet bombings by the allies on German and Japanese cities, a lot of the bombing of indo-china, Korea and Vietnam and most other uses of high altitude bombings.
Going by your definition of terror, the USA are a nation with a terrorist regime.
Interesting. And maybe, you're even right.
Expanded universe, bah!
Who hasn't rooted for Vader to kick that whiney Skywalker's ass or nuke those damn Ewoks? Lord knows I have.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Actually, wearing a tiara does not depend upon rank. It's traditionally associated with marriage, and you do have to be female, but Leia could still wear her tiara even if she were no longer a princess.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Well, obviously there was something of a conspiracy to start a war, starting mostly by troublesome Bostonians. I do think after a few years the revolutionaries were winning the propaganda war. The rebels were able to convince the man on the street that the problem was England wasn't leaving the colonies alone. Plus employing the "Hessians" didn't help either.
you left weing fuck
The author of this anti-republican screed implies that the destruction of an entire planet is justified because Princess Leia is guilty of a few instances of lying to her mortal enemy, the empire. If Mr. Last is so willing to condemn people for a few mistakes, he ought to be punctilious about his own presentation of the facts.
Instead, he seems to be pretty free with analogies he clearly knows nothing about.
One particular example of this sloppiness is his statement that: "The Force, it turns out, is an inherited, genetic trait. If you don't have the blood, you don't get the Force. Which makes the Jedi not a democratic militia, but a royalist Swiss guard."
Now, it is true that the Swiss guard is an elite force. But Mr. Last is simply incorrect that it is, in any way, "royalist."
I present to you the official list of prerequisites for service in the Swiss guard:
To be Swiss citizen
Of catholic-Roman confession
To have an irreproachable reputation
To have achieved the school of recruit (Swiss)
To be old of 19 to 30 years
To measure more than 174 cm
To be unmarried
To have to finish successfully a training or a secondary school of the second degree
If Mr. Last would condemn others for their mistakes, he ought to be more careful about his own facts.
I thought the piece was wonderfully satirical. And a damn sight better researched than the sixties fairy tales which have been recited in roughly a third of the replies so far...
- Chris
Not just Heisenberg was involved in the uranium project, but a lot of smart people, including Weizsaecker, who was a big, big name in nuclear physics.
It is my belief that totalitarian society is not conducive to science... not because of secrecy, but because of the fear to a scientist that some bureaucrat may decide to have you executed. Although perhaps the Soviets prove me wrong here... They did have a fairly good physics program at any rate.
Gee, I seem to remember Randall saying something like that during a certain movie.
A.) Allende got a razor-thin plurality of votes (not a majority) in a three way race with two conservative candidates,
B.) Just before Pinochet took over, the Chilian Congress declared Allende in violation of the Chilian constitution,
C.) After Pinochet left power voluntarily, Chili was left with one of the most vibrant economies in the South America, as opposed to the economic basket cases that a number of ex-communist or socialist nations became. (Albania, anyone?)
D. Yeah, Pinochet killed thousands, of which hundreds probably were innocent. Not a thing to be proud of. But I doubt he'd crack the top 50 dictators list of the 20th century for death toll. Besides the obvious genocidal killers like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Pot, Mengistu, Ataturk, etc., you have all those eastern European communist puppet regimes who killed tens of thousands (Prague spring, anyone?), scores of brutal African dictatorships (Idi Amin, Obuto, Samora Machal, etc.). Even in this hemisphere, both the Sandinistas (37,000 is the the lowest estimate I heard) and Fidel Castro (no matter what "Havana Jimmy" says) have killed more people.
Anyone with a real understand of the crimes perpetrated by governments against their own people know that, in historical context, Pinochet is a very small fish indeed.
Everyone else I saw in the movie being killed was either an ugly alien, a droid, or someone who was covered head to toe in battle armor to hide their "human-ness." Did anybody else notice this?
What about Jengo Fett himself? I'd say getting decapitated is a pretty sure-fire way to check him off the list. Not to mention the numerous Jedi who showed up and probably died off-screen, some of whom may have been human.
And don't forget the clones - clones are people too, you know.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
"Bad is good baby! Down with government!"~The Tick
"I may be bad but I feel good" ~ AOD
The Empire is so much cooler. They've got the biggest army, the biggest guns and the baddest mother running it!
I like-a do-the cha-cha.
Maybe I'm daft, but when I read it, I saw a lot of parallels with the awful rights-limiting, war-monging, "axis of evil" bullshit going on in the USA today.
Bush is Palpatine...
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Everyone else I saw in the movie being killed was either an ugly alien, a droid, or someone who was covered head to toe in battle armor to hide their "human-ness." Did anybody else notice this?
No. What about the large group of Jedi on Genosia? Or the fact that we see Jango without his armor on? Then focusing on humanoid forms, Jango's assistant didn't initially appear to be an ugly alien. I think you're reaching, and therefore blocked out parts that would invalidate your point. The only valid point you raise is that of innocent people dying, of which Shmi and Padme are the only two who are not militarily obligated (note Lucas' revisionist history at work, since in the first episode, Padme was the double and Amidala was the queen). But even Padme knew the risks of her job, so Shmi was really the only innocent to die.
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
I have to say it again Bullshit How did this get modded up? Stupid. "Does that make Nature or Physics evil or immoral?" No, it makes it absolute and consistent. Not judgemental, and not having a choice. "Pol-Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Mao", and Pinochet all had a choice. That is what makes them immoral, they chose to kill all those people for no good reason. Nature kills people for good reason. I think that this is the stupidest fucking argument I've seen here in awhile, which is really saying something. Yes, this is a flame, and take my carma, I'll still have my pride.
Every dictator needs his own followers. A lone man has no power.
Hitler had thousands of followers, and he still has. What about Bin Laden? Do you see him alone?
Having support doesn't mean you are morally right.
Does this explain why so many far-left (sorry - "mainstream") journalists fawn over Castro? Remember, he also has only killed a few thousand of his own people...
Sig? No thanks, I don't smoke...
CORUSCANT -- Presiding over a memorial service commemorating the victims of the attack on the Death Star, the Emperor declared that while recent victories over the Rebel Alliance were "encouraging, the War on Terror is not over yet."
"We will continue to fight these terrorists, and the rogue governments who harbor them, until the universe is safe, once and for all, and the security of the Neo-New Cosmik Order ensured."
It was one year ago today that the Death Star, perhaps the greatest symbol of the Empire's might, was destroyed in an attack by fanatic Rebels, who used small, single-person crafts to infiltrate seemingly impenetrable defenses. Thousands of mourners were on hand to remember and pay tribute to the victims and their families.
"We lost our innocence that day," reflected one mourner. "I guess we thought we were immune from the kind of violence that happens in other galaxies. We were wrong."
"I lost hundreds of buddies that day," said one teary-eyed Stormtrooper. "Guys whose only crime was trying make the Universe a safer place."
Although the day was colored by sadness, the mourners found some relief in the news of a decisive victory over the Rebels.
In an attack led by Darth Vader, Empire forces were able to rout hundreds of Rebels from a network of caves underneath the surface of the planet Hoth. "We're not sure we got them all," says a Vader spokesman. "There are a lot of places to hide in those caves. But we've delivered powerful blow to the terrorist's infrastructure, that's for sure. Today, the Empire has struck back."
Initial reports are unclear as to the fate of Luke Skywalker, a hero among the Rebels, who is rumored to have delivered the fatal blow to the Death Star. Skywalker, a former desert-dweller from the planet Tattooine, became a part of the Rebellion after family members were killed. Skywalker was trained by a militant wing of the Rebels, known as "Jedi Knights." Fanatical in their religious beliefs, the Jedi Knights claim to derive their power from the mystical "Force."
It's believed that Skywalker was specifically trained by infamous terrorist O bin Wankanobi. Wankanobi, occasionally called "Ben" and easily recognized by his bearded visage and long, flowing robes, achieved near-martyr status among the Rebels after his death last year during a spy mission. His more fervent followers believe that Wankanobi lives on within them today, some even claiming to hear his voice during times of duress.
The attack on the Death Star came shortly after the Empire's destruction of Alderstaan, a planet whose government was known to harbor terrorists. Responding to criticism over the total annihilation of the planet, Vader stated, "There is no middle ground in the War on Terror. Those who harbor terrorists are terrorists themselves. Alderaan was issued ample warning. The fight for continuing Freedom is often burdened by terrible cost."
The cost of this war can still be seen today in the continuing efforts to build a coalition government on Tattooine. Longstanding animosities among the planets various ethnic groups, including the Jawas, Tusken Raiders and scattered human settlers, have been an impediment to the peace process. The Empire continues to maintain a small peace keeping force until a provisional government is finally in place.
Much of the difficulty in fighting the Rebel forces stems from their lack of a central organizing structure. "They don't play by the traditional rules of war," complained one spokesman. "They come in all shapes and sizes, united only by their single-minded desire to destroy the Empire before it destroys them."
The Emperor closed his comments today by stating that "the cowardly attack on the Death Star left a deep scar on the Empire. However, we will not stop fighting until every last evildoer has been brought to justice." He paused for several moments, wiping away a tear and then added with determination, "We will never forget."
"I wish we could all just get along," said one of the mourners. "But it's hard to offer an olive branch to a cult of religious fanatics whose main tool is violence and who insist on calling us the Dark Side."
From the article:
By now it's grown clear that George Lucas has an agenda, one that he takes very seriously. After four "Star Wars" films, alarm bells should have gone off, even among those who don't look for morals in movies. When the chief feature distinguishing "good" from "evil" is how pretty the characters are, it's a clue that maybe the whole saga deserves a second look.
Just what bill of goods are we being sold, between the frames?
All in all, an interesting argument that reminds me of the article mentioned in this story.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
My understanding of the prophecy about the one to bring balance to the force (Anakin) is that the Empire was basically supposed to happen. The the prequels, we see that the republic has been weakened due to various elements. The "Light Side" has essentially been corrupted by thousands of years of going through the motions. Perhaps Yoda and Mace Windu are the only ones who seem to really have a full understanding of this, and what it would mean for the prophecy to come true.
What is necessary to return the "Light Side" to the proper state is that the republic needs to be returned to its roots and original purpose. For this to happen, it must be destroyed and rebuilt.
The Emperor and his regime destroy the republic, and it is Luke Skywalker and the Rebel Alliance that rebuild it. Anakin is central to this in that he is the one who enables all of this to happen.
By becoming Vader, he helps Palpatine destroy the republic. Palpatine isn't a good guy who wants to bring order for the common good. He wants to bring order so he can rule the galaxy. By killing the Emperor, Vader fulfills the prophecy as the one who brings balance to the force. Presumably, the Rebel Alliance forms a new republic that has the restored ideals of the original. And perhance is a little wiser than the old as to not let anything like the Empire happen again.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
And preserve the "New World Odor". His logic is "flawless" (with the VERY notable exception of having called Pinochet "benign" and thus revealing his own fascism, but I digress), in his context it is an airtight argument which follows logical parameters and yet, it is still wrong. It's a fascinating example of how logic can be used to turn good into evil, and evil into good. In essence he says, "All the Empire wants is order." I actually laughed out loud when I read that because I remembered a German saying oft used by the Nazis. "Ordnung ist ein." Order is first. There is more to life than "order" in fact, order is an illusion (not to mention very male - the illusion that men control things). All is managed chaos. But what amuses me most is to see such a starkly different viewpoint. It is as if the Star Wars mythology was a religion (and according to the British census it is - LOL!) that can be manipulated to the exact opposite intent of the original document. All is interpretation. What is reality?
because good is stupid.
Its all just smoke and mirrors.
Mod that cat up.
Let's all note that all extremist leaders kill their citizens. Thank you for speaking out against Castro.
Recently, we think he's a cool guy.
Yeah, a cool guy that still almost got us in nuclear freakin' war.
It is possible to equate Dunkurk with Yavin or Endor? Yes it is.
I'd equate Dunkirk with Hoth, myself.
Yeah, "killing" and "benign," in the SAME FUCKING PARAGRAPH. Can anyone recognize a Troll around here anymore?
He killed thousands of people and not millions like, Pol-Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Mao.
Yeah, let's all make commemorative mugs for "People who love Pinochet!" He resisted the urge to kill millions! He only killed thousands! What a nice guy! Someone present him with the key to the city!
People, this is a troll. It defies logic and offends to get you to respond. Learn it. Mod it down. I have no points today.
Someone really needs to lose all of their mod points forever if they give points for the parent.
Also, they need to reread their humanity handbook when the words Pinochet and relatively benign come up in the same sentence.
I read David Brin's article a year ago and I really liked it.
... Brin did.
About halfway through Brin's article, I started thinking about all the SF I read as a teenager. Heinlein's juveniles had a streak of meritocracy combined with the idea of open access to everyone. See especially "Starman Jones" and "Citizen of the Galaxy".
And then I thought "this guy would probably love _The Stars My Destination_" by Alfred Bester. And sure enough
Free Software is in the same tradition. I think of RMS as the Gully Foyle of software, throwing giant tarballs into an ignorant crowd. "This is important! Learn it! Use it!"
Do N*Sync count as humans? :-P
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
...wars are waging, Emperors, I mean Presidents are being exposed for letting national tragedies occur in spite of forewarning, and the intelligent writers among us are philosophically and morally anaylzing sci-fi movies.
Babel on Babylon.
Show me an effect without cause and then I'll believe in chaos.
yeah, the Pinochet thing is a bit of lefty baiting from the right wing dudes at the weekly standard. "do business with" is a quote from Thatcher. Now, enough reality. On with fantasy.
Ever since I was a kid I felt that the rebels were pretty dodgy.
He mentions the thing about the jedi being a kind of hereditry House of Lords - you'll notice that the alliance are also lickspittle lackeys of royalty in exile, and promote Leia's mates to exalted rank more or less as soon as they show up. The rebels are also disturbingly into Triumph of the Will-style rallies, which is never a good sign.
Also, I'd include the Disney Star Tours ride as part of the official Lucas oeuvre, as it bills itself as being created by him. When the transporter comes out of hyperspace in the middle of a dogfight, the rebel pilot on the radio comes across as bureaucratic rather than generally concerned for the safety of civilians - he admonishes the driver for entering a "restricted area". One doubts if the Shining Path think of their jungle ambushes as taking place in "restrictive areas".
You can take the bureaucrat out of the bureau, but you can't take the bureau out of the bureaucrat - even when he's behind the joystick of an xwing.
Not to mention the great "What about the contractors?" speech in Slackers. Book me a ticket to the Dark Side.
Best Troll Ever.
Wanted: One witty yet thought provoking
And Afganistan is Alderaan.
After all, they were either for the empire or against it.
-no broken link
Ah, yes, this old chestnut. Yes, the British did levy taxes against a number of staples, but, far from being "oppressive," the average American was going to be somewhat unlikely to notice it at all. The only party taking a significant hit was the mercantile classes, and, indeed, most of our founding fathers were wealthy merchants and plantation owners. The justification for the taxation, as a way to pay off the cost of the French and Indian War, which had been fought largely for the benefit of the American colonies on American soil, was relatively sound, as well. The American Revolution was by no stretch of the imagination a mass populist uprising, and attracted the support of a relatively small percentage of the population.
It's actually very easy to equate it to a quasi-terrorist uprising, though probably not a good idea to belabor the point, as Washington and company were generally more cautious about civilians getting caught in the crossfire. But then, this wasn't special for the time period, either: even up to the American Civil War, few civilians ever had their lives directly touched by war. There are stories, from the Civil War period, of families heading out to picnic and watch the battle unfold, only to be greeted by an unusually brutal and all-encompassing conflict. The brutality of war as we currently know it only came into being within the past two hundred years, and civilians didn't really start to become targets in their own right until around the time of the Second World War.
The British in the 18th century were also not the evil empire we like to think of them as. Yeah, there was the whole "taxation without representation" thing, but this was in absolutely no way unique to the Americans. Your average Londoner had little representation in Parliament, and Britain was probably the most robust parliamentary system at that time.
All of which isn't to say that the revolution wasn't justified. It's just that, if it was, it was less about how comparatively wronged the Americans were, or how awful the British were, but about a broader ideological viewpoint.
Sean Daugherty "I have walked in Eternity -- and Eternity weeps."
It was heretofore difficult for me to contemplate someone being so pathetic that they took real offense at someone mischaracterizing the actions of fictional persons.
I don't take offense at the author's misinterpretation of the movies -- I don't even like Star Wars that much. What pissed me off is that he downplays the brutality of the Pinochet regime. Furthermore, he seems to be suggesting that it's common knowledge that Pinochet wasn't such a bad guy. I think this is disgusting, even if he means it in jest.
I don't know if he's kidding or not when he called Pinochet a benign dictator, but there really is a view held by some political and economic analysts that what third world countries need is a hardass dictator to whip the government back into shape. I've read articles about the "Pinochet Model." This autocrat, who seized power violently and illegally, actually has fans, at least to an extent. It seems to me that the author is one of them.
Either he's serious, and he thinks that Pinochet is a benign dictator, or he's tasteless enough to joke about murderous dictatorships. Either way, he's a fuckhead.
Steve
I'd point out that while the author claims that he would only use the movies as sources, he then throws out things like the following lines
So which is it --- Movies only or movies and the expanded universe?
From the movies, the only past we know about Han is:
He was a smuggler for Jaba the Hutt.
He dumped his cargo prior to being boarded by an Imperial vessel. Jaba's pissed about that and wants his money back or Han dead.
Han's got a big furry buddy named Chewie (what a Wookie!)
Chewie is subservient to Han with no explanation why.
Han has a fast, if somewhat unreliable, ship called The Millenium Falcon which he won from Lando Calrissian "fair and square".
That's it. Nothing about academies, nothing about Han having been a cadet who certainly did not obtain the rank of captain in the imperial navy. That information is based solely on the expanded universe.
Again, it's conjecture that the Empire runs a meritocracy but if it is a meritocracy, how did Admiral Ozzel obtain his rank? He clearly knew nothing about tactics as he dropped out of hyperspace too close to Hoth. Why are there no women, minorities or aliens of rank in the Empire? Do these people not have merits? (Yes, I know about GA Thrawn and Mara Jade but we have limited our discussion to the film-based realm)
"My fingers Emit sparks of fire in Expectation of my future labours." William Blake
...this is fucking brilliant. I never quite looked at it from the "big picture".
OK, so here's the real story. Anakin is Palpatine/Darth Sideous's son by cloning. Palpatine had himself cloned, the clone engineeered to increase its medaclorian (sp?) count so that it would become a super Jedi or Sith. He implanted a slave girl with the clone, Anakin's mother. Palaptine has been watching the progress and training of Anakin so that he can turn him to the dark side when he is ready. Palpatine had the raiders kidnap and almost kill Anakin's mother to bring out his dark side. In the next movie Anakin will break with Obi-wan and the Jedi's over his marriage. Palpatine will reaveal Anakin's true parantage to him, turning him to the dark side to become his sith aprintice: Darth Vadar. This is in accord with Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with A Thousand Faces", the journey of the hero (Anakin) reaches a climax when the hero confronts his father (The final battle between Vadar and the emperor in "Return of the Jedi"). The whole series is the story of the fall, sin and redemption of Anakin.
Moral relativism is the sign of a lazy, spoiled mind.
Really. Because many of us tend to think of Moral Absolutism being the same thing.
Moral Absolutists tend to pick a crime of the enemy, one crime, and define it in specific abstract terms, and attach a moral value to it. THEN they blow the importance of that crime as far out of proportion as they can. Finally, when someone comes along and tries to balance out the discussion a little, they get the term "moral relativist" dumped on their head.
What the Moral Absolutist fails to realize is their own arrogance in trying to create one and only one moral interpretation of an event, because they're so far caught up in their own rightness that they fail to see that nothing lives in a vacuum.
It sucks being a Moral Absolutist. Staring at one's own navel for such long, unbroken periods of time gives one quite the crook in the neck. I suppose there are benefits -- if their opinions reflect those of they who are in power then I suppose there's feelings of gratification there. One hopes that they don't step too far outside their shell to see what an absolute tool of the establishment they are, in those cases. That would be quite disillusioning...
So *THAT'S* how you sugarcoat the destruction of an entire planet and it's population. The Bush administration needs to hire this guy PRONTO.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Nobody reads anything in a subject after "Re:", you idiot. "Re:" means that there is no new information in the subject line.
Either delete the "Re" or put "SPOILER" in its own line in the body, you asshole.
I don't think I've ever read an article that more explicitly advocated fascism. Dressing it up in starwars doesn't make it any more amusing.
--locust
(note Lucas' revisionist history at work, since in the first episode, Padme was the double and Amidala was the queen)
Huh? Padme and Amidala are the same person. Her decoy was pretending to be Amidala; the real Amidala (played by Ms. Portman) was pretending to be the handmaiden Padme (although I believe Padme actually is the character's real name).
Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
What about Jengo Fett himself? I'd say getting decapitated is a pretty sure-fire way to check him off the list. Not to mention the numerous Jedi who showed up and probably died off-screen, some of whom may have been human.
And don't forget the clones - clones are people too, you know.
Do you know what I find hilarious about your post? It's that you obviously didn't read any further than the third sentence of my post, even though you quoted the relevant part of it:
Everyone else I saw in the movie being killed was either an ugly alien, a droid, or someone who was covered head to toe in battle armor to hide their "human-ness." Did anybody else notice this?
The whole point was that they don't show "humans" being killed. Everything else is fair game, but when a human being is shown being killed it's always this dramatic, dying in a loved one's arms kinda thing. So much for reading comprehension I suppose.
Vader blew up plantets Bush just blows up towns. Close enough.
Tim Smith - Ramblings from Nerd Land
No. What about the large group of Jedi on Genosia?
And how many of those Jedi were a) human, and b) shown dieing on-screen?
Or the fact that we see Jango without his armor on?
Yes, but he also dies with it on. For all intents and purposes, he's not being depicted as human when he dies.
Then focusing on humanoid forms, Jango's assistant didn't initially appear to be an ugly alien.
Not initially, but when they got to the club Anakin made it clear that she wasn't human. And when she died it was made very clear that she wasn't human. I even pointed that out in my original post on the matter.
I think you're reaching, and therefore blocked out parts that would invalidate your point. The only valid point you raise is that of innocent people dying, of which Shmi and Padme are the only two who are not militarily obligated
I don't think that I'm reaching at all, and I've certainly not raised any points related to innocence. I think that Lucas deliberatly left out scenes depicting human death because in some people's minds it's OK to kill someone if they aren't human. I imagine that all the Stormtroopers wear body armor head to toe to dehumanize them. Sure some people will say that it's for protection, but it sure doesn't provide any protection from a blaster rifle. Notice the complete and utter lack of blood in the deaths of these characters? Heck, even the monsters in the arena don't bleed when you cut or kill them. Sure there was lots of implied death, and plenty of dead bodies, but how many actual humans were depicted dieing? I'll go watch it again tonite, but I'm pretty sure that there are only those two.
Not quite as good as 'A Modest Proposal', but brilliant.
It's awfully large for just military personel. It's quite possible that it house ordinary folks as well as storm troopers. :-)
good points - Do you remember how many humans died in Episode 1? were there any at all? The robot attack force was a cop out on the potential violence rating had they been stormtroopers I think.
jeff
ipv6 is my vpn
What struck me most while reading this is just how much of the same sort of logic is used to analyze the affairs of our own planet, with similar conclusions as to what is "good" and "evil".
This reminds me of a stroy a friend of mine told about taking his English cousins to Star Wars. They didn't figure out the Rebels were the good guys until half way through the movie.
I couldn't agree more!
If Lucas would have merely left the trilogy (for that is what it truly is) alone, and not "prequal'd" the masterpiece trilogy, it would have retained a much greater ambiance to the faithful followers.
I couldn't believe the weakness of the plot in Ep. 1. It seemed like he stole(yes from himself) parts of each of the plots of the prior 3 movies in order to piece together Ep. 1.
And I for one am proud to say that I LOVED Jar Jar Binks! The little dude had CHARACTER! Much more than Obi-wan's Master, or Obi-wan for that matter.
But the princess....*DROOL* yeah, she was sexy!
Anyway...those bits aside...I think he failed miserably in plot and direction with Ep. 1, even if he made massive amounts of $$$$.
I do not judge success in monetary values.
"Just Smile and Nod." --Huck
>Terrorists attack civilian populations for the
>PRIME reason of sowing (duh) terror.
No, that's the crap a manipulativt government gets an impressionable media to spout.
QlQeidas prime reason for attacking is TO GET THE US ARMY OUT OF THEIR HOLY LANDS. They see the soldiers there as an occupation force, who is descerating their most Holy areas. They don't have the forces to go up against an army. So they attack something else, hoping the population will demand that the army is retreated. Of course that never works. Especially when the majority know shit about foreign policy and would rather believe that these terrorists sacrifice their lives because they think its a cool thing to do.
The brutality of war as we currently know it only came into being within the past two hundred years
Bullshit. Read the Bible for a somewhat fictional, but overall accurate view of ancient warfare. The era of "gentlemen's war" was rather an aberration.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
...Because there is another movie to come, and that is where the alliance is formed. The formation of the rebellion could come from any number of things in the next movie.
On the side of why the empire is evil, Senator Palpatine created the situation under which he took over by arranging the slaughter of the inhabitants of Naboo. Nevermind the desgtuction of Alderan, which could be attributed to the mistrust in Leah. They attacked a peaceful planet, killing many for the sole purpose of achieving a political end. Evil.
Yes, yes, the arguement could also be made that the slaughter of the Gungans (Jar Jar included) could be the best thing ever to happen in the universe...but I don't think it is relavant to this particular discussion.
Democray IS. Communism IS. BS IS this.
Nature is amoral because no human choice is involved. Without free will, morality is indeed meaningless. Similarly, animal are often said to be amoral.
However, political arrangements are totally about people's choices and how to resolve conflicts between people's choices. Since a dictator can impose his/her choice above any of his/her subjects, the moral character of his/her choices is clear.
This is "wholesale terrorism" vs. "retail terrorism". It has been very well documented by many modern philosophers. You can find the sources yourself, but I believe Chomsky wrote some good papers on this concept.
* Elites have an inherent right to arbitrary rule; common citizens needn't be consulted. They may only choose which elite to follow.
Yes, most certainly yes. Most people are far too stupid to be entrusted with running a state. Watch that bit on Leno where he asks folks easy questions. Who lost the American Civil War? Here's a hint: it wasn't the East. Take a look at any of a number of tests and surveys which conclusively demonstrate that the average American, Briton, Frenchman or German is a moron.
# `Good' elites should act on their subjective whims, without evidence, argument or accountability.
Brin slants his statement. But it is true that men should act according to their judgement. I use the instance of the law. The moral man neither obeys nor disobeys the law; it is as nothing to him. He does that which is moral, and does not do that which is immoral. Legality doesn't enter into the equation.
Certainly, if the moral thing he does is illegal, he will be apprehended, tried, convicted and punished. But that does not prevent him from doing it.
# Any amount of sin can be forgiven if you are important enough.
Any amount of sin can be forgiven, period. We know this to be true.
# True leaders are born. It's genetic. The right to rule is inherited.
There's a reason that men have kings and lords. We can breed dogs (for looks, intelligence, speed, whatever)--certainly we can breed men.
* Justified human emotions can turn a good person evil.
Can it be denied? Anger can become hatred, and that can quite easily become evil. It may be necessary to destroy a man, but it is never necessary to hate.
There are two types of people in the world: Star Trek people and Star Wars people. Star Wars people are realistic: there is good, and there is evil (well, actually, there's good and lack-of-good...). Star Trek people are utopian twits who think we can all just get along and denying man's fundamentally fallen nature.
there are two types of people in the world. The type that think there are two types of people in the world, and the type that knows better.
I'm still inclined to think Coruscant ought to look more like Hong Kong (or perhaps Times Square) than it does, but maybe they've got really strict zoning ordinances governing signage such that an occasional 7-foot tall ad is legal but billboard-sized ads are not.
I play Nerd-Folk!
I suspect this has alot more to do with PG-13 ratings than it does with it being "okay" to kill someone - the most extreme scene I can think of is when Obi-Wan dismembers that giant mantis-thing. Everything else is very bloodless and clean - even the decapitation of Jango, which should have been messy and horrible even with the "clean" cuts lightsabers are supposed to make.
I mean, if the "good guys" can't even tell right from wrong because the "evil" ones can hide their "badness" 'cause of some lame "sith technique"....
Me thinks their head is too big for their chip on their shoulder.
The article says: The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.
I think that's a hard argument to make. In the 3 films that come after the empire, we never get a chance to see what the daily life of an average, law-abiding citizen is like. The films mostly follow the rebel alliance, which hides out on remote/uninhabited planets. Check out the different settings used in the movies:
Tatoonine: A remote outer rim planet, where the Empire doesn't really have any control (nor do they want it).
Hoth: Apparently the only creatures that live here are tau-tauns and those Sasquatch things.
Bespin: The only "normal" place shown in the 3 movies. We don't really see the Empire's presence here. However, it must be really bad: Lando turns over his best friend to Darth Vader just to get the Empire to leave him alone.
Endor moon: Nothing here but Ewoks, and they probably deserve whatever punishment the Empire can dish out.
Alderaan: Destroyed by the Empire as part of a negotiating tactic with Princess Leia.
I doubt this guy really thinks the Empire is better than the Rebel Alliance. He might be turned off by the more egalitarian and liberal ideas espoused by the Rebels, but to make the stretch and claim that the Empire is a force for good is deeply disturbing. Star Wars may be an imaginary universe, but The Weekly Standard certainly is real, and it has a real effect(albeit a small one) on political discourse in the United States. If the editors of a major magazine think the Empire is ok, it casts great doubt on their analysis of events in the real world.
-Mike
Actually, the Soviet system was quite terrible. Soviet scientists were under such pressure to "not fail" that all they did was duplicate American results gleaned from espionage. Quite a few physicists were sent to Siberia for reeducation.
Princess Leah wasn't the deposed queen of the Galaxy. She had an honorary title from her adopted planet of Alderan, which was noted particularly for its neutrality. Kind of like Switzerland. Of course if you carry bombs in ambulances --I mean battlestation plans in counsellor's ships-- you can't expect that neutrality to be honored.
was that the Empire wanted order, on their terms only. All (well most) Jedi, which were around to maintain the peace, were hunted down and killed. Plus one of the most important things about the Empire was that there were no non-humans in power. It was a racist regime. The Empire could have been a sucess if they were more diverse. Just look at the amount of non-humans in the Alliance at the end of ROTJ. The position that the common person was not affected was true to a point (if you were human).
my 2cents
The Parallels with nazi germany are strikingly obvious.
George Lucas uses these parallels to suggest the evilness of the Empire.
For example,
Hitler came to power when he was granted Emergency Powers after the burning of the reichstag.
He re-armed germany which had a very limited army before.
He circumvented the powers of the Reichstag (senate)
Anybody else seeing a pattern?
so, eventually, Microsoft would have been
"good" all along...
(writing this from W2K SP2 and IE6...)
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
Wait, isn't that what Bush is doing?
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
So the attack on the pentagon was not terrorism. It is after all a military target.
More parody on the Fool
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Unsurprisingly though, the dictators eventually decided that they'd prefer not to hand the power back to the senate, and the Romans ended up with a "modern" dictatorship - a semi-hereditary, semi-factional sucession of omnipotent Caesars. You may have heard of such "benign dictators" as Nero, Claudius and Caligula?
I *suppose* it's intended to be amusing...except that the Std is a very right-wing publication, and this *is* the editor writing this.
I *also* notes that he's for "breaking away, and having Free Trade and Capitalism!". Doesn't this look familiar? Like, maybe, the GOP platform?
Lessee, George I as Palpatine, Cheney as Darth Vader, and George II as a figurehead. Anyone questioning George II, or suggesting that he's got nothing in his pack above an 8 is a Rebel Against the Moral Empire!
(Oh, and Sen. Leahy, the liberal, is pro-freedom of the Net).
mark "where's my lightsaber?!"
I suspect this has alot more to do with PG-13 ratings than it does with it being "okay" to kill someone - the most extreme scene I can think of is when Obi-Wan dismembers that giant mantis-thing. Everything else is very bloodless and clean - even the decapitation of Jango, which should have been messy and horrible even with the "clean" cuts lightsabers are supposed to make.
I wondered a bit about that myself, but I'm not sure that's the case. I recall that in the Mos Eisley Cantina in EpIV when Kenobi cuts off that creatures arm it is shown lying on the floor bleeding.
Are we talking star wars - or what. The article is attached to the wrong thread of comments. The Title of this should be "Benign Dictators or not - Slashdot readers want to know"
From the He's-really-a-tyrant dept.
Editors - please fix.
I guess you won't like it but that means that it is more correct for the Palestinians to attack Israelis (anyway, most are in the reserves) or for whoever that attacked the WTC than it was to bomb Afghanistan or whatever.
I'm always careful about any anti-terrorism law, as to where would it leave say the WWII resistance forces? The point of the article here is that who is right and who is wrong depends entirely on your viewpoint. This is why we must be very careful about who we brand as terrorists and why.
This article and the other one about the Day-care Center on the Death-star are satire, but very appropriate for current times.
Um, they used a airliner filled with civilians as a weapon.
Cuba is hated by the US because it appears to demonstrate that small-scale Communism can in fact work fairly well, and need not neccessarily be brutal and repressive to function. Cuba is a success story that the US would very much like to just erase.
Riiiiight. That explains why they are still to this very day trying to swim or float over in all sorts of little boats. You have words that say that Cuba is great.
I have the refugees, the people still trying to flee Cuba, and the whole history of almost starting WWIII as your answer to the claims of Cuban superiority.
If Cuba is such a prosperous, free, and open society why is it that they cannot leave the country and come visit the USA?
But hey! Why would anyone even want to see the rest of the world if Cuba is as great as you say it is?
..recognize that many Palestinians are Christians. I know that you're just playing around, but try not to treat both sides of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as Clone-like monoliths, especially when posting for thousands to see...
But most importantly, don't make the mistake of thinking that the fighting in Occupied Palestine is religious violence in the first place -- instead, recognize that the Intifada is, at heart, a political, grassroots movement, aimed at resisting the colonial aspirations of a large bloc of Israeli politicians. Religous extremists *on both sides* (many of whom belong to organizations with a great deal of political clout) simply add disorienting smoke to an already-hot fire, as they harness the propoganda surrounding the Intifada for their own ends.
<rant>
As for the parallels between Pinochet and Palpatine, or the Rebellion and whatever -- who gives a fuck! Don't we have better things to talk about? Or act upon? And can't the well-fed, cigar-smoking frat-boy that transmitted the original piece from his ivory tower say something more constructive? Like, for instance, offering *insightful* political analysis? That's supposedly his goddammed job, right? Gimme something worth reading! Where are the pundits with brains? Who can I turn to for inspiration? Where is the non-trivial Internet? Help me find satisfaction! Let's browse at +6!
</rant>
I hope that comparison was a joke. I mean, Star Wars is fantasy. lets to confuse the two. Pinochets effects on peoples lives was horribly real.
This is a work of fiction. The author wanted to create sympathetic characters, so he created a huge faceless enemy.
The story only works when the enemy is faceless. As soon as you put a face on the bad guys, they become human, and less bad. And yes, the good guys become less good.
In morality tales, the world is black and white, drawn with wide lines. As soon as you add color, details, ambiguity, faces to the bad guys, the story falls apart. (This applies to the devils of history as well. Examine a devil closely enough and you find a man.)
I think this discussion is very valuable, in that it might help us to more carefully examine whether or not we live in an empire, complete with an aristocracy, client states, installed local goveners, etc.
=brian
Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.
Even on a galactic scale, destroying an entire planet (as coersion) does not a benign dictator make.
Well, yes. You see, the problem is that we live at the beginning of a new century, when the idealists come out of the woodwork with their (usually) fanatical ideals of utopia and order.
Happens all the time.
Face it, the Empire (and, by your argument's extension, the American Empire) is efficient. Just as the Nazis were efficient.
So long as you fit in, it's a great place to live. Just don't have any ideas that challenge the order of things and you'll get along fine. Unless we deem you inferior, in which case you'll become our (insert one) slaves, serfs, or servants.
Lucas is warning us against ourselves. In fact, with amazing prescience, he warns us against the imposition of an elitist centralized growing bureaucracy, as we see evidenced in both Bush regimes (and Reagan), and encourages us towards democracy, smaller government, and true capitalism and away from despotism, growing government, and crony capitalism (a la Bush).
But will we heed the message? Or, as we frequently do, will we allow it to be subverted against ourselves, as the very program named Star Wars was used in a Machiavellian manner to destroy the USSR while producing nothing.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Agreed, Pinochet is bad, and the fact the author chose him as an example suggests poor understanding of certain historical and political facts. But there is the grain of a good point here: it is possible to have a fairly benign dictatorship which is not brutal, not cruel or power-mad, and generally tries to improve the lives of most of the citizens. Singapore would be an admittedly imperfect, but acceptable example of this. Certainly better than the Pinochet regime.
I'm the stranger...posting to
[Elites have an inherent right to arbitrary rule; common citizens needn't be consulted. They may only choose which elite to follow.] Yes, most certainly yes. Most people are far too stupid to be entrusted with running a state.
Well, I'm glad you know what's good for me...Seriously, how 'bout we educate the unwashed masses, so they can make their own damn decisions (regardless of whether they're right or wrong)
[True leaders are born. It's genetic. The right to rule is inherited.] There's a reason that men have kings and lords. We can breed dogs...certainly we can breed men.
Ya, for example the Prince of Wales...er nevermind
Oh drat, I've been trolled...
.siggy
"a galactic civilization - spanning god-knows how many cultures and people with a HUGE communication lag - would almost require an emperor to even move."
Huh? What lag are you talking about? Even from halfway across the galaxy, people do real-time holographic video conferencing in Star Wars all the time.
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
If they had killed Grand Moff Tarkin's Momma, that would have been terror. If Grand Moff Tarkin's Momma lived in a democratic state which elected the Emperor and gave him a strong mandate, how 'innocent' would she be? This question has been giving me some grief recently... it seems that either: a) As a civilian population we are politically disempowered, leeched of our tax dollars and thereby have some claim to be innocent of what our governments do, or b) We support our leaders, cheerfully fund their military excursions into the rest of the world (after all, they're only executing our collective will), and don't try to hide behind the repercussions of those excursions by claiming 'innocent civilian' status. Both viewpoints are pretty bleak... surely many of us have thought this through at some time or another?
Swords, robes.
The jedi look and sound like whirling dervishes.
"Empire strikes back", rebels hiding out in caves.
Dune was like that too.
Desert people rebelling against the
high tech worlds that wanted to take their
spice to fuel their intergallactic
space ships.
Imagine being taken over by an army of cloned Australians. I'm not going to sleep well tonight.
Help the scientists free the world from the evil curse of the dracula
Is a publication of, by and for douchebag wanna-be fascists.
Anyways, episode two ruled your gay, geeky, stand-in line-for-two-hours ass. I loved it, this movie made me a fan again.
I don't recall any reference to Han beginning his career in the Imperial military getting any mention in the films. (I do remember seeing references to it in other Star Wars media however)
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
What about all the independant contractors they slaughtered on the second death star?
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
terrorist
Your analogy is flawed. The definition of a freedom fighter depends on which side you're on, not what their actions are. Saying that a terrorist is someone who attacks specifically civilian targets is disengenuous, and something I'd expect of the Bush administration or a Slashdot troll (the parent could be either or both). Terrorists will naturally favour civilian targets because it is the easiest way to achieve the goals defined in the definitions I just provided, however it is not a requirement of the definition. I wouldn't even suggest that terrorists with worthy goals don't target civilians, because that depends largely on the situation.
As Dr. Spork said, until you define "terrorism" shut the fuck up.
Incidentally, moral relativism tends to be the sign of an intelligent mind uncertain and doubtful of the uncompromising opinions imposed on it by a lazy and spoiled society. As D John Tennant put it, The difference between those who are wise and those who are not is that the wise believe themselves to be fools [ie, are doubtful of the certainty of the values they themselves hold], and the fools believe themselves to be wise [ie require something other than themselves to classify as foolish, such as moral relativism, since by their definition a wise person should not have such deep doubts about anything].
I believe the people of Naboo are known as Nubians..
Romanian people consider that Vlad Drakula was a good ruler. Right, he was cruel, but this is hardly a surprise for a typical ruler from the XVth century
There is a BIG difference between a Revolution and an Independence War.
THERE WAS NO AMERICAN REVOLUTION ONLY AN
AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE WAR
Typical examples of revolutions are the French Revolution of 1789 or the 1848 Revolutions from different European countries (France, Austria, etc)
There is no doubt that the French REvolution of 1789 was the most important historical event of the XVIII Century; it shaped the history of the world. Compared to the French Revolution the American Independence War was a provincial event which had limited impact on other countries.There are over 40 countries which used the French Constitution as a model for their own constitutions. As far as I know no country has ever used the American constitution as a model.
For your information I am not French, I am not even fluent in French. I even do not like the French people (I used to live two years in Quebec and because of that I became anti-French). I do believe however that I have to recognize the achievements of the French people, even though I DO NOT LIKE THEM.
Dunno, I could be wrong. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, so I don't know everything there is to know. I just always felt that the Force was independent of human politics.
The empire make greedo shoot first! they must be evil!
i'll take beer, porn, and bonghits over the self rightous zealotry of the empire anyday.
So, they definitely HAVE to be made homosexual, because:
- Armies nevertheless always tend towards homosexuality. This is why the Dune emperor Leto II had his army of fish-speakers exclusively female...
- Having scores of identical homosexual soldiers solve one of the biggest military problems: coping up with sex urge. Having soldiers go down on prostitutes brings a lot of V.D. problems. Having all identical soldiers having sex upon themselves simply eliminates the V.D. problems.
- It neatly solves logistical problems, since you can have two or more soldiers sleep in the same bed.
- Likewise, they certainly don't mind that, in the shower, other soldiers see their weenies and have a kick out of it!!!
- Gay soldiers don't procreate, so their minds are freed from concern for their offspring, so they can merrily march to slaughter.
- And they don't worry for their lovers because since they are all interchangeable, they know that their lovers will be taken good care of.
- Gay soldiers won't also go and rape women of other worlds. They'll probably not rape men either because they have ready access to themselves.
- Spartan elite troops were exclusively gay, so that they could demonstrate bravery in front of their lovers (but of course, having clones would mean that by all being identical, they would not have to boast to others).
But all this rises a few questions:But what would the Republic/Empire be about? Obviously, here we have a multiracial universe where it only seems that Lucas' antropocentric tendencies would make humans more prevalent. (Or could there be Wokiee, or Huttese versions of the same story where humans would be the oddball alien in the cantina?).
So, what would a pan-racial government be? Here, we're talking about different planets whose indigenous inhabitants would be fare more different than simply having extremely thick, wavy blue hair on humanoid shapes... Those different races would have differing needs so trade would really be minimal, and interracial interactions would be rather exceptional. And even when several races would be in close contact, their physical needs as well as their cultural aspirations would be so disparate as there would be room for everyone.
But for those to be drawn under a common government... Surely that common government would certainly not stoop down to order about the minutiae of every planet's life; that would be best handled by the planets themselves, if only because of the ludicrousness of having one race decide for another... So, obviously, a pan-galactic interracial government would simply serve as a regulator of interplanetary/interspecies interaction. As such, it would mostly only regulate commerce, communication and ensure fairness.It is also likely that within such a government, influence could also be based on commercial volume, so the Trade Federation would certainly not need to invade Naboo in the first time, as Naboo would certainly not have been able to legally tax trade routes.
Such a government would rather be streamlined and general, whose regulation would be more oriented towards procedure to solve conflicts once the major interactive guidelines are laid-down than actual regulation of process.
Therefore, it is doubtfull that Coruscant, the capital, would rise to trantoresque proportions as depicted in the movies, as well as the government would be paralyzed by squabbles to the point of not being able to arbiter a mere trade dispute...
I had a vision of Bin Laden in 1977, as
a young, westernized bourgeois who went to
see Episode IV...and had an inspiration of
what the rest of his life would be,
fighting against various evil empires
(USSR then USA), living in caves and
worshipping some bullshit religion...
Maybe Episodes 7,8,9 will show a larger
and more powerful Empire (the USA) crushing
the Rebels with daisy cutters, helped
by the remains of the Empire of episodes
4,5,6 (the USSR actually), converted
to the bright side !
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
Well, I boycotted "Pulp Fiction" - for an entire week.
By now it's grown clear that Quentin Tarantino has an agenda, one that he takes very seriously. When the chief feature distinguishing "good" from "evil" is how talkative the characters are, it's a clue that maybe the whole saga deserves a second look. Just what bill of goods are we being sold, between the frames?
This is just the beginning of a long list of lessons pushed by Pulp Fiction.
Possibly the most pernicious idea Pulp Fiction tries to sell us is the idea that Jules Winnfield could be redeemed by an act of divine intervention, diverting the gun blasts from hitting him and his cohort Vincent Vega. Divine intervention is an idea that has always been an instrument of oppressors, as if saying that the suspension of the laws of physics was a sign from God that He wanted one side to win.
Finally, the fact that Jules is spared the consequences of his actions by turning his back on his old ways plays into a disgusting morality that goes back at least two thousand years in the West, one that we should have hopefully grown out of by now: the idea that people can change their ways. No. As any moral person can tell you, once a bad person, always a bad person. Would you forgive Churchill his surliness and alcoholism simply because he led England out of its darkest hour? Is George Wallace to be trusted simply because he tells us he has changed his mind about racial integration? Of course not! Yet this same kind of moral about-face is something that Tarantino expects us to believe from his gangster epic.
People expecting a more realistic treatment of organized crime and its toll on law-abiding society should check out my new book, Mob People, about gangsters in the 30th century. Chapter one is available for preview on my website.
"Hardly used" will not fetch you a better price for your brain.
The mises institute has two articles (...
Lucus sends a clear message that the Federation agreement with the corrupt Republic is based on the model of British Imperialism by filling the movie with historical imagery. The Federation is British Imperialism in the form of the East India Company, which controlled and taxed the British possession of the Indian sub-continent. Of course, entrepreneurs complained and evaded British taxes and regulations, but the British Empire gave out monopoly rights to control India and other colonial trading rights in return for tax revenue.
and from the second article:
The evil democracy is based on the Lincoln administration that sent an army of immigrants to crush the attempted separation. Lucas has Palpetine dub his invasion force the "Grand Army of the Republic," just as Lincoln did. What could be clearer? I suspect the clones will exhibit the habits of Lincoln's lawless generals, like Sherman, who killed and destroyed everything in their paths.
I found this a much better critique that those who would favor the empire. It is not a question of having an orderly universe. It is a question of liberty.
There has been a lot of talk about the Pinochet comment in this thread, largely by people ignorant of the actual history. While a lot of posters have repeated the same old leftmedia line (``Allende was an angelic hero, and Pinochet was against democracy'') this
piece from 1998 provides a good look at the two men.
There's no point in defending many of Pinochet's actions, but it's worthless to ignore the fact that it was Allende who suspended Chile's constitution and cancelled elections, while it was Pinochet who stepped down peaceably after being voted out of power. These things should be kept in mind when deciding which of these men was `anti-democracy'.
Considering this, I would stand by my comment that Allende's government was more democratic.
I modded the Troll Investigation and I got
So. A well-funded dissident seeking automomy in a far away land assembles an threatening army. The old Republic (an inefficient, but fundamentally peaceful democracy) is manipulated into giving Supreme Authority to a politician with questionable allegiances. In the process, the republic slowly becomes a royal, military dictatorship (or empire).
I hope this reminds someone of the events since 911.
I know, I know, that's different, not the same thing at all, etc, etc. But the similarities are obvious and disturbing.
=brian
I am simply stupefied by how many people seem to have taken this thing seriously. Obviously this was meant as a joke, or else the writer should simply be pitied.
I bow to the power of stupid people in large groups.
"Hail Palpatine!!!" (j/k)
Next time, your kind will be exterminated. Once the USA realizes that the Nazis were killing the Jews for good reason... inevitability will resume the gassing.
Um, you seem to attempting to view and present Nihilism as a dangerous loaded, certainly insulting word.
1) I don't.
2) Compared to the sum of human knowledge, the quantity that *is* valuable is vastly less than the volume of noise.
2) You apparent failure to appreciate the difference between an absolute and relative position is rather nihilistic its self.