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CDs Want To Be Free
Dotnaught writes: "An article that I wrote about a new music promotion service called fightcloud.com and CD pricing in general has just gone up on Salon. And heeding the advice of Dave Winer, I also posted the full transcript of the interview on my Web log, Lot 49, for those curious about what got left on the cutting room floor." Rather than complaining that Big Recording's CDs are overpriced, it sounds like this company is simply demonstrating that music (even on physical media) just don't have to cost that much.
How long before the mainstream record industry either:
A: Assimilates this.
B: Tries to kill this.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
ugg.. I hate advertising...
If I have to pay $4.95 for shipping and you are making $2.64 "profit" from that $4.95, how the hell is the $4.95 "for shipping"..??
$4.95 != Free
Now, if only the artists would break away totally from the record labels, everything would be great.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
Hear me out here, I think I have a valid point. Lots of people here are programmers. Lots of people think CD's are overpriced. Well a CD is about 15 bucks give or take a few. How much is a video game these days? 40 or 50 bucks, a DRASTICALLY different number than 15. But guess what? You get a game , it comes on a CD. You get an album, it comes on a CD. What can we conclude from this? You're not paying for the CD at all, you're paying for what's on it! So why should we tolerate 50 dollar games without batting an eye, but a 15 dollar music collection is "way too much"?? I don't see the difference. Programmers put in tons of effort to create a game. Musicians put in tons of effort to create a CD. The time schedules are roughly similiar, no artist is cranking out CD's weekly or anything. So is there any reason we complain about music being too much, while games we don't? I think its because most people here are programmers, and think that because video games involve programming, they are inherently worth more.
i dont know. the article appears like the it was cut in the middle. you reach the end and say to yourself "wait, that's it?"
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
although calling something free and charging five bucks for it is kinda scummy, at least these folks are punching a hole through the perception that there's something expensive about producing a CD.
15 bucks is NOT reasonable, and was the price point initially agreed upon to finance the cost to convert to the new format (i.e. from vinyl). CDs were supposed to cost about eight bucks in stores.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
This is a good idea, but the state of Nevada for instance has already made progress towards placing price floors on any "mainstream music distributions". Because of pointless legislation such as this, projects like these will never succeed.
If anything, this site might be merely a proof-of-concept, but I doubt if it's a model that will become widespread. People have been conditioned to pay $18+ for CDs and as long as the only way they can get their Britney fix is through those who have the monopoly, they'll continue paying it.
Since all the artists on the site are unknown, they'll never be able to reach much of an audience because the radio stations are the pretty much beholden to the recording industry will never play their music.
I really haven't followed up with Prince's attempts in directly selling to the consumer, but I don't recall hearing much from him lately. He might still be selling records, but who thinks he'd be as well-known as he is without generating lots of dollars for the recording industry first.
It's a cynical view, but it's hard to not to have it. I do applaud attempts to go it alone, but I can't help but think these guys will be gone this time next year.
It costs $1.03 to $1.26 (depending on variance of weight between plastic jewel case and cardboard fold case, and sometimes the weight of book inserts) to send a CD via first class mail. A 25-count box of 6x9 padded envelopes can be purchased at Office Max for no more than $10, so that's another forty cents.
Where does the other $3.34 go?
CD pricing in general has just gone up
So true. Although I think it's a trend, not a one time thing.
I remember that whole buzz about price fixing a while back. It seems to me like there are all kinds of governmet agencys with no purpose except to protect the entertainment industry from the consumer (ala pirating etc) but they are slow to protect the consumer from the entertainment industry (ie CD technology has increased but price hasn't dropped since... well practicly since they hit the market). I don't know if this guys new marketing attempt will work or not, but I like the idea, and I have to agree with what the author said. If I can buy a brand new CD for $4, I'm not going to bother scouring over every P2P network on the internet untill I find all the mp3's from the alubum I want. That usually takes WAY too much time, and is much poorer quality. Piracy in software and music alike would not be so much of a problem if things were priced reasonably.
Sigs are out of style, so I'm not going to use one...oh wait..
In 2000, the average suggested list price of a CD was $14.02, according to the Recording Industry Association of American (RIAA). The CD itself costs about 32 cents in a large production run, according to Michael Pardo, V.P. of sales for CD duplicator Greenwood Solutions. Add packaging and the price goes to 54 cents. Add the cut for a new artist, somewhere between 10 and 50 cents,
CD+ Packaging + artist cut == $1.36
$20 - $1.36 == 18.64 RIAA
$cat
A CD really does cost money to produce. The reason you (well, not you necessarily, but somebody) want the Mariah Carey CD is that somebody brought it to your attention. "Attention", as everybody on the Internet knows, costs money.
Physical stores cost money: clerks, rent, utilities, inventory overhead. Some of what Fightcloud is doing just matches the Amazon model of using the Internet to reduce many of those costs. Good for them; I applaud it.
Now comes the real question: will they have any CDs worth buying? And if they do, how will you know? Most CDs are crap. Even in a general area that you like, most CDs aren't worth the plastic they're printed on, at least to you. It's the job of marketing to match you with that CD, and that's expensive to do. We'll see if $4.95 gradually becomes $9.95. Still a better price than the RIAA wants you to pay, of course.
Although calling something free and charging five bucks for it is kinda scummy, at least these folks are punching a hole through the perception that there's something expensive about producing a CD.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Considering less than 10 percent of the roughly 27,000 CDs released annually make money (according to the RIAA)...
It might also be that most of the music that the RIAA puts out is crap, but that's just my opinion.
"In case of emergency, break glass. Scream. Bleed to death."
I'm a twenty-something programmer/analyst. I have a DSL line. I don't pirate movies or music or pc games or video games. I, like most people, like to pay for things, including the things I could get for free. For better or worse, we are all consumers and just because we can download things for free doesn't mean we do.
Why bother with the copy protection crap? If I want to pirate a game protected by safe disc, I will, and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it since I am just one person out of millions.
Why not save the money? Honestly, the only thing I have pirated in the last year was Windows XP - I paid for Windows 98 and I just consider it an upgrade to a working copy. That and paying for it would have meant registering. I may just buy it and stick the shrink wrapped copy on the shelf.
I would rather see the money spent on more content than some stupid scheme to stop me from ripping a cd that doesn't even work. It doesn't stop the poor pirates and it doesn't stop the rich pirates. It doesn't stop me from making legit backups when I want. So why bother?
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
It's a good idea... we all know that CDs are overpriced. I try to buy music direct from the artist... they generally get a much higher cut and the prices are generally much better.
It's too bad that FightCloud doesn't have a better selection...
Guvegrra?
Try the scuf bin at Everyday Music.
Hmm lets say we use an entertainment piece 100 times...
Hmmm so looks like Slashdot's $5/1000 deal isn't too bad for non-banner ad pages!
Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth!
From the Salon article:
Scalfani sells CDs for free. That is, if you don't count the $4.95 "shipping" charge
So, if I turn up at their offices in person, with a box, these CDs really will be free. As in free.
If I were the word free, I'd be feeling pretty raw and abused these days.
I do it too. Every time I go to Newbury Comics, it seems those bastards have upped the price of CD's.
.ogg, making a copy for the car, etc.) and time-shifting (taping stuff off the radio to play later); they should not even be able to make it difficult to perform such tasks. This means that copyright should not apply to recordings with fair use interference measures/anti-free trade measures (collectively and inaccurately known as "copy protection").
But bitching about it doesn't really do anything. The CD producers can charge whatever price they think the market will bear. Some people actually buy CD's at stores like Sam Greedy and Record Frown, both of which seem to sell everything at MSRP (about $19 now), so it's obvious people are willing to pay.
My answer? I simply buy fewer CD's: at $10 I'll buy almost anything, at $13 I'll buy most stuff, but at $15+ I'll only buy what I really want. The rest of it just isn't worth that price.
However, just because I think they can charge whatever they want doesn't also mean they get to dictate terms. If they want a limited-time monopoly on distributing their recordings, they have to fulfill their side of the copyright bargain, which IMO means that they have to make it easy for me to exercise my fair use rights. It isn't enough simply not to prosecute me for attempting to exercise those rights, such as space-shifting (ripping to
Go sign the Digital Consumer Bill of Rights and stand up for preservation of your fair use rights. Call your Congressmen. Donate to Rick Boucher and let him know why. Join the EFF. (And if all else fails, join the NRA, buy a handgun, and get ready to defend your liberties with force.) Stop simply complaining, and do something about it.
[ home ]
...tells you to sell the product at the price at which you will make the most money. Let's assume $4 per unit production cost. If one million people are willing to buy your product at $14 each, you make 10 million dollars. If only twice that many people are willing to buy it at $8 each, you only make 8 million. I'd be an idiot not to price my product at $14.
Best Windows Freeware
But the good news is that they are championing the oft-overlooked Christmas music genre. In May, for some reason.
"It's Dot Com!"
Seriously, did you even read the article? They didn't say it was totally free - they make money "handling" the cds:
At FightCloud.com, the price is right. Scalfani sells CDs for free. That is, if you don't count the $4.95 "shipping" charge. Of course, that would be a mistake. Buried in the shipping charge is the secret ingredient: a modest profit. Less costs of $2.31, the company nets $2.64 on each "free" disc, half of which goes to the artist. But with only 1,000 or so CDs shipped to date, no one's getting rich. Yet.
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
There's certainly a place for professionals in music (questions about how well the current payment system works aside), but music should also be an amateur (look it up) endeavour. If you have a day job, then share what you create!
Finding my recording of the Brahms Requiem is left as an exercise for the reader.
"The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
Here is the text of the article
You say computer, but it should be a computer program. Or you should not list cd and instead list a cd player.
:)
I get the best entertainment value out of sex myself. Contraceptives are cheap and if you live with your partner, you are probably making money
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
Hey 10 CDs for a penny... but what's this $40 shipping?... and why do I get unsoliceted CDs in the mail every week?
People hate hearing "free" when it means $4.95 shipping for something that's cheap to make and ship.
Instead, they should've said that the CDs were $4.95 with free shipping. Then we wouldn't feel like we're being lured in by "free", it'd just be a good deal.
It's just wording, I know, but it makes or breaks this company's "image".
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
As a former game programmer I can tell you that it's very similar to the record industry. Normally in video game development you have a publisher, a development studio, and programmers/artists that work for the game studio. The publisher gets most of the money, then the game studio, then the programmers/artists get crap. In my experience game programmers make much less and work longer hours than people in other industries. Though game programming is much more challenging and fun!
($14 sale price - $4 cost) * 1 million sales = $10 million profit.
($8 sale price - $4 cost) * 2 millon sales = $8 million profit
His math isn't flawed. you forgot to subtract the cost.
I'd like to add
($20 sale price - $4 cost) * 0.5 millon sales = $8 million profit
The idea is at a certain point, you get maximum total profit. I think CD prices are pretty close to it. People buy lots of CD's at their current price. If they raised the price significantly I think there would be a substantial drop in sales. If they lowered their price somewhat (representing a larger decrease in net profit) their sales would not increase all that much, I know I wouldn't run out and buy most of the crap out there at any price.
n/m/
free cats? cool! i'm up for chinese food! or french cuisine, for that matter.
I don't want to defend the RIAA but comparing these guys to a label is apples and oranges. Presumably in most or at least many cases, the label pays the studio costs and marketing costs. Think of how many $2.64 CDs an artist will have to sell to make the cost of the studio time, any hired musicians, marketing materials etc. The artists cannot even be breaking even unless they record in their homes using SoundBlasters.
Here's where the money is going, and it's mostly the "handling" part of the "shipping and handling":
So this is what comes out of the $4.95 shipping and handling. It pays to manufacture it and pays to package it in a jewel case. It also pays for the envelope, the stamp, the label, and the cost of printing on the face of the CD. We ship it all out to the customer. It gets to them and we pay for the credit card transaction and we pay for the Web hosting. All of that comes out of the $4.95 and there's still plenty of money to split, so tell me the record labels aren't doing it wrong if we can do a business off that.
The RIAA finds some girl w/ boobies. Some dude in Nashville writes her a song. Some guy in NYC comes up with a marketing campaign. Someone in Chicago stocks the shelves. Some dumb-ass pays $15+ for a manufactured image. THE MUSIC IS INCIDENTAL! This 'artist' doesn't write her own music. Doesn't come up with her own dance moves. Does not even dress herself. And people buy this. Alot of this. And I'm supposed to let advertisers interfere with my abillity to skip commercials when it's _this_ obvious that advertising and marketing works?
Lowest common denominator entertainment.
I wish the Lone Gunmen were here. *sniff*
In the article, 54 cents per CD covers the plastic disc and the printing. But even low-budget, professionally recorded albums typically cost $30k to $50k in the studio and mastering rooms before they ever go to press. When most CD's only sell a thousand copies or so... the $15 price tag makes a bit more sense. Most record companies are losing money on the majority of albums they produce. The few albums that go platinum allow the record companies to continue giving smaller artists a chance.
Average Price of CD = $14.02
Cost to make CD = $0.32
Packaging = $0.22
Royalties = $0.50
No longer having to pay $14.02 a cd = $4.95
Still Bitching about the cost of a CD - PRICELESS!
Well...their bandwidth and servers aren't free, and looks like they'll need more:
modules/ui/mmui.mv: Line 4120: MvDO: Runtime Error: Error opening '/Merchant2/footer.htm': Too many open files in system
anyone remember the interview with lars ulrich from metallica (http://interviews.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/ 05/26/1251220&mode=nested&tid=141 if not)? he offered some good insight into how the recording industry works, but basically what you're paying for is the record company bankrolling new artists (as well as the overhead jobe_br mentions). part of the "sure thing" cristina agulera cover risks on new artists.
as far as a small startup being able to survive on a small profit margin, well DUH. one guy with a recording studio and burner just has to pay himself, but a&m or sony has to pay people not directly related to revenue: human resources, payroll, lawyers. don't pretend they're not necessary just because the small company doesn't need the. that's like saying "hey, my 4-port hub has more capacity than i need at home, why do people spend so much money on switches and routers when they could string the internet together with 4-port hubs?" the bigger you get the more infrastructure demands you have.
it doesn't help that everyone (artists and executives alike) wants to be rich, but i doubt cutting prices on cds will change that attitude --it's in every industry.
all that said, i'd buy more cds if they were cheaper. right now i have a hard time justifying buying a whole cd just so i can have one song i like.
"Mister Potato-head --MISTER POTATO-HEAD! Backdoors are not secrets!" (War Games, 1983)
Essentially this is a distribution company, and they charge huge rates to send you a 'free' CD. I can get better shipping rates through any major (or minor) carrier, and even most couriers.
Here's their business plan:
- Make no useful product
- Obtain 'free' product from elsewhere
- Advertise shipping service for 'free' product
- Outsource shipping
This doesn't punch a hole in anything, much less the RIAA's theory about the CD price fixing being necessary. All this shows is that someone can set up a virtual company giving product away and making money on the shipping - which all too many internet companies failed at a year or two ago.Here's the bottom line - you can give away garbage, and you can sell wanted products, but you can't sell garbage and expect to survive off it. If they think that they are going to make enough money on this gimmick to grow their business and become a heavyweight player, well, best of luck. But remember MP3.com isn't so hot these days, their artists aren't so hot, and they're giving away their music with the added benefit of instant gratification.
FightCloud - if you really want to appeal to people, don't call a donkey a horse. We are intelligent consumers. If we're given an reasonable choice, we'll make a reasonable decision. The RIAA markets their products to the stupid and weak. We have to eat it because that's all there is for many good groups (who can't or won't free themselves of the RIAA's lies). Tell us that your CDs cost $2.50 each and that S&H is $2.50 for the first CD and $0.50 for each additional CD in each shipment.
But then, your business would fail, wouldn't it?
-Adam
This article explains to HER that:
> $16 of the $18 she's spends on a CD is record company profit.
Prices on CDs should be going down, not up.
A $5 CD sold direct to the consumer makes almost double the profit for the artist.
The positions of the RIAA on P2P and DRM are likely motivated by greed, not survival.
In my view, it's a LOT more important *where* this article is than *what* it actually says.
I'd love to see a big name (Madonna, U2, N'Sync, etc.) use the net to direct-market a low cost original CD just to confirm for everyone that the RIAA is obsolete. Likely, however, it'll go the other way - one of these 'unknowns' is going to hit it big and promote the hell out of this approach.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
What I fail to understand is why this author and so many others writing on this subject fail to mention that there was an agreement on May 11, 2000, between several members of the recording industry and the Federal Trade Commision where they agreed to lower CD prices due to pratices that artifically raised retail prices. This agreed to lowering of prices never seemed to have happened, yet the press never followed up on it.
The thing, I think, that makes me maddest about the record industry is that I want to be sympathetic. I really do.
I understand that hiring the best engineers and studio musicians cost money
Honest, I understand that.
I understand that promoting new acts entails risk and that established acts help to buffer that.
I understand that marketing and distribution cost money.
I don't begrudge somebody turning an honest dollar doing all this stuff. Not one bit.
But $18.99 per CD?
Can you say exploitation?
$18.99 per CD then trying to make it so that I can't play it on my pc?
Can you say outrage?
$18.99 per CD to help you lobby to take away my rights with a little help from your friends Hollings and Feinstein?
Can you say I don't need your stinkin' CDs?
When you want to make an honest dollar, I may stop back by the store.
How is that a troll? It's clearly flamebait!
I'm not sure what the cost is ( and I don't really think it's alot ) but the equation is better stated as this
CD+ Packaging + artist cut + marketing + shipping == ????
There is an article on Electronic Musician called Follow the Money: Who's Really Making the Dough? that breaks down exactly where that $18 goes and how the system works. (In case anyone's interested in facts and not speculation.)
On the Web Log (lot 49), he said, "Here is the biggest mistake of them all: two good songs on a CD. How many times do we have that? Remember that girl who sang "Where Have All the Cowboys Gone"? Vaguely. She was a kind of folksy singer. That was the only good song on that CD."
That was Paula Cole, and for that albumn she got nominations for Best New Artist, Best Album of the Year, Best Pop Albumn, Record of the Year, Song of the Year, Best Female Pop Vocal Performance, and Producer of the Year.
If this guy didn't know that, how would you feel about his business acumen? And if his musical taste is that bad (Paula Cole's This Fire is one of my top 10 CDs of all time), then I don't want to listen to what ever else he's selling (Kid Rock ripoffs?).
That is great for club kids, and the like. Most people don't have the time, inclination, or ability to go to the clubs, and hear club bands.
If you live in a major metropolitan area this is a valid discussion, but there is a whole lot of the US, not to mention the rest of the world, that doesn't have descent indy music scene.
Indy music won't ever be as successful as a major labels promoted band.
Indy music will never have the oppotunity to satisfy as many people.
Most of the money (that isn't put right in the coffers) the labels get goes to promoting the record, and the concert tour, that promotes the record.
YES YES and MORE YES!
Jack Scalfani is a music industry leader and genious by what he's said. Even with CARP (CRAP) being struck down, the future of downloaded/streamed music is still not certain. I recently bought a CD player for my car and home that are both Sirius enabled and I'm bumpin' that commercial free sound all day long.
I haven't bought a CD for more than $12 in over 3 years, most I buy (small indy lables) are around 8-10 bux, and I love the quality.
When clear Channel came in an ownt New Mexico radio stations, I stoped tuning in.
When the RIAA sued napster et. al. I dedicated 100mb of bandwidth to the fasttrack network.
Why? Because, I'm a consumer with a vote (in my wallet) and I was not happy with the level of service provided by the big music industry. I haven't paid any attention to comings and goings of MTV bands, I've boycotted any and all Vevindi/Universal artists from my catalog, giving away nearly half my CD's in a 2 month period. I have no interest in these acts that are "grown" by the industry to make money and videos, and nothing else.
So where does that leave me to get music? The Internet, Fightcloud, local DJs, college Radio (KUNM rules), Local record stores (not hastings, best buys, Boarders etc, but the little one outlet mom-and-pops).... the list goes on and on.
The RIAA's days are numbered! I wish Jack Scalfani the ultimate success and nothing put good luck and karma, this is really a good fight.
Great job Thomas =)
-Doug
Q. What's it take to get a story posted on
this would make sense if the record companies didn't recoup the $30k to $50k for the studio and mastering room time from the artist's royalties. a typical contract only gives an artist about 7 points out of 100 on album sales (this is about $1.05). so by this logic, record sales should be much cheaper, and the artist and record company would still get paid.
It does not appear that they actually manufacture the CDs for the artists. It looks like the artists have to ship them the CDs to sell. So the artist makes $1 and some change on the CDs that FightCloud sells, meanwhile the making of the CDs costs roughly twice that for small run "Professional packages". Not to mention the money the artist has to spend on their own promotion.
Doesn't sound like anyone is making any money other than fight cloud. Yet again. The artist is always the last to make any money at all!
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
Sometimes I just wish the internet were owned by one big corporation. Then all this positioning and politics could end and services that are good idea's like Internet Radio, P2P, etc would flourish and we could actually have fun. But businesses are protecting themselves like mad dogs with little thought to the consumer, ME that is. IT Sucks. I am about ready to write off online services and not spend another dime online. Here that subscription based Slashdot haha just kidding you guys rock.
***I GOT NUTHIN***
OEM copies of Windows XP don't contain the "activation" bullshit, and they often sell for less than the retail copy. XP Home is running around $89; Pro is about $140. Check Pricewatch.com for current prices.
Dennis Miller said,
"Considering how badly you get fucked every time you go into a record store, I have to assume Richard Branson was trying to be ironic when he named the place Virgin."
If you don't like the system, support a different system. Or are you just a drooling consumerist lapdog?
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Give me a break. Producing a moden video game is waaaaay more complicated and difficult than recording an hour of audio.
Most games have a complete soundtrack as one small part of the entire game.
I could go bury myself in my room for a week (probably less), and come out with an audio CD of original music. Yeah, it would probably be crap, but the point is I could do it.
I could not write a modern computer game in that time period, not even a crappy one like, say, Daikatana. Not even close. Nobody could. Quality computer games these days take dozens of extremely high skilled people working for years. You get exceptions like Tetris, but those are increasingly rare these days. The days of Pac Man and Space Invaders are long gone.
Some legendary music albums have been written and cut in the space of a few weeks. Producing music isn't all that time consuming. Inspiration is the hard part.
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
They must be the same people paying $200+ to see concerts.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If tapes cost more than CDs, there wouldn't be much point in making tapes (because nobody would buy them).
Great idea, unfortunately lacks basic elements of logic. Explanation: People by things based on their price, not based on cost!!! Yes, nobody would make tapes if nobody bought them. However, people do buy tapes. Now the question is it worth it to make them? This is were the cost part becomes important.
If the company made just CDs and is now considering to produce tapes as well, what would be the incremental cost shipping also tapes? Just the cost of the tapes (and delivery). Sound engineering and all whatnot was included to the initial project. If the initial project of selling CDs was profitable, then adding tape selling line makes sense as long as the price of the tape stays above the variable cost of the tape, i.e., the cost of the tape and delivery.
and those costs are distributed between tapes and CDs in such a manner that they will get the most return.
Nonsense. These prep costs are overhead costs and you CANNOT distribute them between tapes and CDs by the definition of overhead cost.
Scalfani makes some excellent observations, predictions, and explains his business model fully. He carefully selects the artists he features on Fightcloud.
I expected this to generate some insightful, intelligent commentary here on Slashdot, but all I found was kneejerk whining about shipping and handling and the number of artists on the site.
Damn, I'm really disappointed in you all. Go read the full interview.
I can see the fnords!
You can charge whatever the market will bear. So, game producers charge $50 (at least for a few months) for a new game.
How is that different from CDs? Well, the game producers didn't have to settle with the FTC because they were conspiring to inflate the price of CDs. Retailers wanted to sell them cheaper, but the middle-men wouldn't let them!
Even with the antitrust allegations settled, I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of crap still goes on. The RIAA members are effectively a monopoly on the music industry. As a result, the market isn't dictating what price a CD will go for, they are.
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
Recording costs are recouped from artist royalties.
1.1. Price != Variable Cost
1.2. Price != Fixed Cost
2. Price != Value
PRICE = WILLINGNESS TO PAY
Hate to break the news to you, but this "Free CD +S&H" scheme is old hat...
BMG Music Serivce: 7 Free CD's (plus s&h)
Columbia House: Join their music club, get 12CDs FREE (plus s&h)
Or just open up any TV-Guide...or Sunday newspaper magazine...
Hell, the less they dress themselves, the better I say.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Lot49.com is an interesting tribute to Thomas Pynchon's Crying of Lot 49 , an intersting exploration of life in CA. (My favorite part is the name of one of the bands--Sick Dick and the Volkwagens)
For those interesting in a real headtrip, try to plow your way through Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow.
Pynchon is an interesting hermit. He didn't accept his award for Gravity's Rainbow.
Instead, he sent Irwin Corey.
(BTW, You'll enjoy GR a lot more if you read it with a companion.)
Here is what the cost of cd's has done to me:
1. Listening to my collection a lot more
2. Put off indefinitely buying anything new
3. If I do buy anything I am VERY picky, it is never an impulse buy
If they keep upping the price of cds they'll have to start marketing them like cars.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Plus with this model (the site in the article's model that is), while the artist is still choking down the cost of recording, they're getting more per CD in most cases.
Most record labels have negative cashflow right now?
How are you greedy when you charge less for your products than the costs you have?
You know, you can walk right back out of that record store empty handed if the price is too high... It's your choice. When did "Supply and Demand" die and "Give it to me for free or else I'll steal it" take over?
Course why the hell someone would pay $2 for any tittany schpears album is a question that will never be answered either...
It costs 30 cents to mail a CD. Even less if you don't mail it first class. $4.95 for "shipping and handling" is some expensive fucking handling.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
I went to this fightcloud site and checked it out. They have a very limited selection of CDs, and they say: "This CD is free* for a limited time only."
Others have already pointed out the CDs are $5, not free. And now it turns out that this is just a promotional offer. The CDs will be more than $5 in the future.
I have a hard time seeing that this is any new business model. The CDs will still be expensive, will still be based on old brick & mortar concepts like selling a physical piece of plastic.
What I want is to buy three tracks from each of twenty different artists. I want to know the tracks are good before I fork out. And I want them ONLY in digital format (I'd like Ogg Vorbis, but let's be realistic. For the next two years I'll be happy with VBR MP3s).
So what's the story here, really? "Company runs promotional sale and Slashdot gives them free advertising!"
fifth sigma, inc.
Your examples of BMG and Columbia ignore the fact that BMG is selling defective non-CDs (since they can't carry the CD logo) which only play in my home music devices (aka an iMac and my DVD/CD/CD-R/CD-RW player) when I use the Magic Green Sharpie on the data track.
That's not free.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Anyways, the album was recorded in two three hour sessions at a NY studio. Each cut on the album is the first complete take (i.e. one without stupid mistakes).
How much does six hours in a recording studio cost?
...richie - It is a good day to code.
The average CD price is about $14. There are many film DVDs that are selling in this price range. Which price reflects more accurately the underlying value of the material recorded?
I don't for a moment believe that the cost to make an album is approximately the same as the cost of a major motion picture. Not even the same order of magnitude! Or two! If most films are in the $10-15 million range...does it really cost $1 million to produce a CD?
i would say it is a little different. i dont believe artists have to use fightclout exclusively. so just because they sell them on fightcloud they can also sell them elsewhere. fightcloud provides alot of the technical services associated with selling stuff on the web. this way an artist can point people to fightcloud when they ask about more info on buying their stuff at shows.
the most important difference, i believe, is that the artists retain the rights to their works. with a normal label artists sign those over so they no longer own their creations.
i'm just as cynical as the next guy, but i think you're selling this one short.
-- john
Fightcloud burns CDs on demand, prints a label on them and then ships the CD out in a slimline case.
I suppose the artist had to ship them one original "master" disc that FC uses as the image for the rest, but I doubt that'll really break anybody's wallet.
Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, will be quoted out of context on
Yet sell for much less...and the industry STILL makes a huge profit on them!
Also, the cost of the recording Engineer, the studio rental, the promotion, etc. etc., gets charged back to the artist and comes out of their (meager) cut!
THIS is why the artists are so much up in arms against the RIAA!
and it pushed me to two forms. the first was my name address etc. the second had shipping options and a payment type selection both in pulldown boxes. the first box was $4 whatever but the pulldown box for payment type was empty. i tried pressing continue, but it pushed me to a formless page. it appears that the page is broken. i'll email them, but i was wondering if there was anyone else with similar expirences?
-- john
Is the RIAA membership fee.
so if you show up there i'm sure they would be happy to chop off the shipping portion of the cost. then you just have to pay for the handling.
$5 for a cd delivered to my home is a great price in my mind. i actually found one on their site i was going to buy, but the form seemed to be broken-i'll check back later. too bad they dont have any ska.
-- john
so why does a tape cost half the friggen price ???
Give me a break there is NO WAY to justify the additional cost of a CD vs tape BUT gross profiteering. Stop trying to make lame excuses for greedy ass record execs unless you are one then I could at least understand, all the while hating your leech like existence. Pls heed your own advice and smell the coffee, do some research and then spout...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Hrm. We should coin a new term. The "Copyright Defense-Industrial Complex." Bear with me.
The RIAA is making a killing by setting the MSRP at $18.99 for CD's. Granted, they don't get all the money, but they make a huge pile.
Well, like MS, they accumulate huge piles of money. Also, like MS, politicians start eyeing that pile and start wondering why no one is "sharing" by contributing to their political parties campaign funds, so they start threatening "legal actions." So, the RIAA has to do *something* with that money to make it look like they make less.
First, they scream piracy. "Look at the billions we're losing!" hoping that no one notices the billions they're raking in.
Second, they invest in Copy Protection R&D, in the expectations that people will buy into their "piracy" conspiracy. This is real, cold, hard cash. Millions that they can then write-off somehow (I'm sure there are plenty of well-paid accountants that can justify it somehow legally), but that's millions that don't show up in the bottom line so they can say "Look what piracy has made us do! Spend money!". Etc.
So, to hide money, they spend money, scream alot, and hope no one really notices that they're actually spending $18.99, or 2-3 hours of their wages on some "artist" (I really dare anyone to really apply that word to N*SYNC, BSBoys, Britney Spears, etc) that they just have to have.
All kidding aside, though:
The fact is, the RIAA charges 18.99 because people for some stupid reason *pay* 18.99. I've never paid that for a single CD (although I did pay 22.99 for a Rolling Stones 2 CD set, on sale), but that doesn't stop millions of others. Personally, this has all been beat to death and I've been limiting myself to supporting smaller artists (that I really really like) on labels such as Sympathy for the Record Industry, Dischord, etc etc. While you probably won't find any of that "neu-metal-rap" crap that people like for some reason on any of these labels, you may find something *genuinely* good.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Or the ones paying a million for a private show.
No, it's because the majority of people who post here are spoiled, greedy, lazy, incompetent losers who think that everything in life ought to be free. If you had been listening to the real free speech/free software advocates, you would realize that:
Nathan's blog
(The above post is redundant *and* repetitive. Too much use of the word "interesting")
Pynchon resources:
The Modern World
Pynchon quotes
Crying of Lot 49 resources
They completely put me off the idea of IBM desktops. Every time I see "IBM", I think of those moronic fucking ads, and want to smash things.
What I like about the fightcloud concept (that really is a terrible name) is that they look like they'll be rotating their artists and offerings fairly often.
All their pages say "limited time" on them. If they do it right, they'll act as an extremely good initial promotional vehicle for low-profile artists, and they'll offer the public an editorially filtered view into the "morass" of new artists.
This way, they'll always have fresh material, and not much to browse through. That's a site I would check regularly and would patronize often, if they had stuff I liked to listen to.
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
The Royalty Calculator
An amazing look at the way the recording industry stiffs its artists.
the most mysterious thing you'll see today
While I won't argue with anyone about how the Rec. Industry needs to be overhauled, I have one question to ask everyone about stealing music:
If we allow people to just take music because they can, why do we prosicute people who steal from the rich? If someone just robs someone in a mansion, takes a TV, and runs off with it, we arrest them, right?
We don't just let people steal. Period.
Copyright infringment in a different form of stealing. Ask anyone here who's a software developer, and they'll agree. They don't want their stuff stolen - neither do artists, or record labels, no matter what's going on with their shady buisness practices.
Sorry if I'm a voice against, but people need to realize that it's not P2P that leads to overpriced CD's - sure, it's part greed on the label's parts, but DVD's are equally overpriced and nobody's trying to take the movie studios to task.
This free CD thing isn't novel, either. I personally got 10 CD's off Columbia House for damn near nothing.
Plaid
By calling the 4.95 "shipping and handling" they don't have to pay sales tax.
You know, you can walk right back out of that record store empty handed if the price is too high...
Each person that walks out because they decide the product is overpriced just adds to their "proof" that the internet is killing them.
They oughtta triple the price of CD's - about $49.95.
RIAA claims piracy losses of $300 million per year. Tripling the cost of CD's would triple those losses to $1.2 billion. Current US Music industry is $6 billion. Tripling prices would raise that to $18 billion. The resulting 93% drop in sales would leave $1.2 billion in revenues and imply $16.8 billion in piracy. $1.2 billion + $16.8 billion = $18 billion in piracy. That should be enough to justify passing the CBDTPA in order to wipe out rampant piracy.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
What's wrong with making a profit on that?
Free CD not good enough for you?
Buckets,
pompomtom
"There's an exception to every rule. Except for some rules"
Paula Cole does NOT have a good voice - at all. At best, it's only as strong as Britney, or Madonna, when she's double or triple-tracked. It's funny, too; all those awards, for mediocre shit. It's almost as bad as Macy Gray, or the Grammy that Metallica lost; to Geritol-junkies Jethro Tull!
A middleman, according to "Economics: Private and Public Choice" by James D. Gwartney, Richard L. Stroup, and Russel S. Sobel, is "A person who buys and sells, or who arranges trades. A middleman reduces transaction costs."
Music CDs are much cheaper outside the US and parts of Europe.
.. obviously they are continuing to make a very decent profit..so exactly how much does it really cost them to produce a CD?
No, I am not talking about pirated CDs.. All these labels sell their music abroad - In India, a typical CD from any large music shop (like Sony Music shops) would cost about Rs.325/Rs.350, which if you do the math is about US$6.7.
By the way, Rs.325 is still quite a lot considering the purchasing power of the average Indian..
But given that, its still interesting to note that the same labels are charging much less for the same CDs outside the US
Tapes cost half as much because they're less durable and because they can't be copied without loss of fidelity.
Think about it. Wouldn't you be willing to trim your profit margin a little for a guaranteed repeat customer?
The Web is like Usenet, but
the elephants are untrained.
If the record companies have such incredibly favourable deals with the producers of their product, why don't they actually make all that much money?
-- the most controversial site on the Web
Both of the services you name come with strings attached.
With BMG, after you pay for your "free" CDs, you don't have to ever pay money again... if you're careful. But if you don't send in the little postcards... well... then you have to buy whatever they want you to buy this month. Sorry, that's all too much hassle for "free" music that costs $5.
Columbia doesn't try to trick you that way... but you are obligated to buy 5 more discs at the "regular" price ($15). Alltogether, you get 17 CDs for about $5 each... but you have to spend $87. If you're planning to spend that much, it's a good deal. Considering that they advertize 12000 titles, it seems like most people ought to be able to find 17 out of those that they think are worth $5 each.
But if you just want to spend $5 once, no strings attached, then fight cloud is better.
Of course, maybe the reason fight cloud doesn't try to sell you 17 CDs is because they don't have 17 different CDs to sell...
then the small indie labels would go out of business. There is no way a small run of a 1000 CDs produced by a small outfit can compete with music biz.
Keep prices as they are, that way it's fair for everyone in the music biz trying to make an honest buck!
It seems like very few people have actually gone and listened to the music they have to offer. I think the music is the central question here. Is it any good? Is it worth $5? Please, people say what you think.
I like the idea of $5 (or "free", whatever) CDs. The music was a mixed bag... nothing that really excited me, but nothing absolutely terrible either. I found 1 CD that was worth risking $5 on. If I like it, who knows... maybe I'll buy another.
The RIAA has this monopoly-thing going on. You know, fixed prices and stuff.
Bah, damn people and their "neat-sounding" buzzwords.
Give it some time and not a word in the dictionary will mean anything.
Magius_AR
I've seen her live, and her voice is great.
But more importantly, she writes her own music, and produces her own music. Britney doesn't write or produce, and Metallica doesn't produce.
There seems to be an assumption that music/data downloaded is completely free (as in beer). .iso files). It took over 150 hours (my connection speed is not guaranteed).
This is not the case.
I subscribe to my ISP for £15 per month.
For this I get "unmetered" dial-up access (up to 12 hours per day, automatically cut off every 2 hours).
I downloaded Mandrake Linux (3x650MB
Was this free? Not as far as I'm comcerned. It cost me all of my available bandwidth for nearly 2 weeks. Was it worth it? Damn right it was. Have you seen what's on those CD's????
But let's say I was to download an audio CD. 700MB @ 4.4kB/s* =c.44Hours. This is nearly four days access (to maintain this data rate I must let my ftp client run by itself) which costs me roughly £2. Free? No. Worth it? Can't tell until it comes down the line, by which time I've paid for it.
*This is the highest sustained data rate I have seen through my connection.
Steve albini the producer (and member of, yes Shellac) has written a story on this as well.
Use your cloaking device.