Slashdot Mirror
More on the Effect of Digital TV
EyesWideOpen writes "Here is an interesting article at Wired which mentions that existing DVR devices (Tivo, ReplayTV) aren't equipped to handle the digital TV signal that broadcasters are scheduled to start delivering in 2006. Also mentioned is a proposal being considered by the FCC that would allow cable companies to 'turn off' the firewire port, which DVR's will use to connect to digital televisions, so that some broadcasts can't be recorded. The proposal is being considered no doubt in response to fears like that of MPAA head Jack Valenti who has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies."
I mean really, what do you use that is 4 years old?
Dude, you got stuck with a Dell
Yes, why yes I do!
it tastes lovely!
I even Felch it!
Still fucked in the head after all these years.
I think not.
Je t'aime Stéphanie
the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies.
Since when did anyone want a perfect copy of an edited movie?
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
...can we have multibilliondollar corporations going to Congress and saying "If you don't change the rules to help us, we are going to cut ourselves off from selling our products with this new form of technology, in essence leaving ourselves in the realm of the horse-and-buggy as we enter the automobile age" ...
And actually have Congress give in!!! Remember that when the rapid advance of technology slows in the next few years.
Looking at the prices of HD "Compatable" t.v.'s it's still not cost effective enough for me to put out money on a risk.
Of course I haven't read the article (this is Slashdot for God's sake), but does this really matter? My TV isn't equipped for DTV either, but the FCC (and others) have been saying for years that I will just need a converter box to get an analog signal for my TV. Couldn't I just use that on my TiVo?
Digital TV will only be available in the US by 2006!? Almost every cable company offers digital TV here in Canada, and it's not too much more expensive that regular cable (the difference being the cost of the set-top box). Things like video on demand are also available in some markets already. Why is the US so far behind? Is it regulatory, or just that the cable co's don't want to pony up to offer these services?
So, the "industry" would rather go out of business than risk a few people recording their content to view later.
This is a bluff to get something unreasonable from us. And it certainly isn't how a free market works. If there is a market then people will create for that market. Otherwise we are dealing with an illegal monopoly and it should be broken up.
Dissolve the MPAA it is acting as an illegal trust.
what is the point of creating technologies that HURT the consumer. Stop trying to treat your customers like their junk.
Lets get back to the idea that new techs like dtv (which we already got up ere in canada eh) should be geared to provide a better service than analog tv did. better picture/menu etc and not to stop people from recording their favorite boston public episode etc.
Plus turning off the firewire port. Like that'd be hard to turn back on with a bypass switch or the such. Security through obscurity again. If canalplus etc cant get their satelite tvs to be protected against simple access control what makes anyone think that adding this to tvs will stop ANYTHING.
Freakin americans
don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies
unlike we are already doing now with TiVo and the ppv channels or HBO, etc... Which I am wondering, if we are paying for the viewing(ppv), why can't we keep the movie then? Like some movies only shown at times I'm not available, why can't I let the newer HD Tivo's record that for me and I can watch it at some decent time
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
Of course my TiVo is compatible with a digital signal. All I need is my D/A converter, which I'll be using anyway.
Folks, you don't HAVE to eat what they're dishing out. Honestly, 525 scan lines and a mono speaker really is enough for me.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
I can't think of anything right now. I'll come back later. In the mean time PHP!
"someone should make a hot air balloon that is shaped like a giant vagina" -- Bill Clinton
i am typing this post on a Macintosh SE/30 which my family purchased in 1989.
:)
seems like it still works to me.
for older hardware still being used, just ask Junis
We've been taping movies off the tv (and renting them and going to see them in the theater by the millions) for years now.
Are we going to stop going to movies and renting dvds just because we can now make "perfect copies?"
Absolutely not. This is just one more industry attempting to hijack the consumer and keep us all financially indentured to them.
HDTV-compatible sets have been on the market for a few years. Are they changing the HDTV spec enough such that these TV's wont be able to work?
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
There are, and always will be, tangiable benefits to being able to buy a copy, assuming they price them reasonably. If people are willing to have crappy, off-the-air (even digital) copies, with no bonus footage that comes with DVD's, then that says something about the price of DVD's, doesn't it?
And anyway, how long does it take for movies to get to broadcast anyway? 2 Years? Who waits that long?
This guy is as paranoid as those freaks who have bomb shelters and 2 years of rations in their basements.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Hollywood movies broadcast on the networks (or basic cable) are already far from perfect copies, due to the heavy editing of dialogue and scenes.
Jokes don't make sense, the plot loses any logic it might have had, and I just get frustrated.
After recently trying to watch "Mallrats" on Comedy Central, I can tell you that even if I could record a perfect copy of broadcast or basic cable movies, I wouldn't bother.
The proposal is being considered no doubt in response to fears like that of MPAA head Jack Valenti who has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies.
Keeps the honest people honest I guess (and/or it keeps the stupid people honest) as I don't think Im going to have any problem 'making perfect copies of movies'
Money is always standing in the way of progress, or maybe this is just a chance for the MPAA to stop movie copying because they couldn't catch it the first time around...
Janis Ian's article yesterday summed it up pretty well:
"They can fight with compelling value--whether it's built in videos, computer games, free tickets, unique passwords to go download bonus tracks, demo tracks and dance mixes...karaoke tracks for each song, alternate vocal takes... Who could, or would, want to spend the time reproducing all that via downloading?"
So I have a perfect copy of a movie... so what. If the DVD contains 30 minutes more footage and/or full length commentary, then there is a reason to go buy it instead of ripping it with a Tivo.
-Tom
Oh yes, I'm sure that the movie studios are going to stop selling their movies to TV networks, because a few people are copying those movies. How much do they make by selling TV broadcast rights for their movies? Isn't it, oh, I don't know. MILLIONS of dollars for every movie? Not to mention the advertising revenue the networks themselves get It's like saying to a mugger: "If you don't put that gun down, I'm gonna shoot myself!" Fucking media companies.
You mean I'll have to rent a DVD and copy it to my DVD burner?
I was counting on recording it from TV!
How much will a DVD burner cost in 2006?
How much will used DVD's cost in 2006?
How stupid do they think we are?
Also mentioned is a proposal being considered by the FCC that would allow cable companies to 'turn off' the firewire port
Great, now we have to start mod'ing our TV's in addition to our DVD players and game consoles.
Two words: Planned obsolescence.
Just like cellphones with games designed to wear out the keypads so you have to get new ones.
If my cable company renders my Tivo usless, I will no longer have any use for thier service and I will cancel. Sure I loose the cost of my TiVo, but it would only take about 6 months of not having to pay a cable bill to recover the cost of my TiVo.
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
Don't get me wrong, I like being on top of technology with my computer. I upgrade it every chance I get.
But my TV is going on 12 years old, and I have no intention on upgrading it digital or no. Its a sweet TV and the only thing that is going on it is the remote (which is replaceable.)
Are we going to have to start upgrading our TV equipment as much as we upgrade our computer equipment?
How long before I see the headline "New bread not compatible with pre 2002 toasters!" on slashdot?
Here's a way to get the same effect with movies!
Step #1: Rent a movie on DVD
Step #2: Place DVD in DVD-Rom drive
Step #3: Rip the DVD to your hard drive
Step #4: DivX!
Step #5: Watch it to your heart's content.
Thanks for your time.
(The following statement was intended to be humorus, and is not intended to condone the stealing and copying of entertainment media)
the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies.
Well they already have a measure in place to prevent this in the analog world that would work just fine when everything goes digital. The version of the movie that they release to the TV stations is of very poor quality; it is downsampled so as to seem fuzzy and crappy. Not only that, but the good swearwords are covered up and the blood is cut out. These are by no means 'perfect copies' of the movies.
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
1. Crack the cable decoder to allow firewire all the time;
2. crack whatever encryption exists to keep the content safe from the devil, ugly, smelly kind of person consumers are;
3. record digital video for FAIR USE.
But hey, after step 1, step 2 and 3 are quite easy... hmmm, OK, now I guess they are going to require some new digital eye lids, so if you are seeing a protected video, your eyes will automatically shut.
Now seriously, it's time to write your congressman again. No way we can let them take more of our rights.
It cannot come to the same free-speech-is-illegal, people's-rights-don't-mean-a-dime level like it came with DeCSS.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
and the rest of him, too. Sounds to me like he reeeeeally needs a Moe-Howard-style bitchslapping.
He Just Doesn't Get It.
Jack Valenti, the head of the Motion Picture Association of America, has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast.
Fine with me, Jack. Don't play your movies on TV, see if I care.
Edith Keeler Must Die
If they don't want to broadcast their movies, fine! let them do it. Let's see them come back squirming later on. We can always find other sources of movies.
I mean, "fullscreen" movies on most cable outlets have a significant part of the original widescreen image lopped off. Isn't that imperfect enough for Jack Valenti? How about if he takes the sound down to simple mono and superimposes a silhouette of himself at the bottom of the screen, delivering meant-to-be-funny lines about the movie MST3K-style? Is that bad enough? Or does he need the cable company to agree on subpar cabling, too, so I get some ghosting?
So I buy a TiVO because I really, really don't want to miss your programming but you scheduled "Cheers III: the redemption of Cliff" at 1 AM while I'm at work. You, in response to this infamous behavior on my part, hack my machine so I can't see it? Way to twist your head up your *ssh*le. What industry thinks that way?
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
If you consider cropping the video with pan-scan, bleeping/overdubbing audio, cutting out scenes, changing the rate the film is played back, and squirting in a 33% duty cycle of commercials a "perfect copy", yeah, better not let us have those.
I'd buy an HDTV Tivo setup RIGHT NOW. But, the market isn't there for them so they aren't making them yet. When it's time, they will. Scientific Atlanta has an HD cable box with PVR, the 8000.
It's suddenly become popular to pick on HDTV lately.
Many can already record a show/movie, althought not at the so-called "perfect" quality, still, in a non-degrading digital format using the TV input on many display cards.
I doubt the majority of the people watching pirated movies are going to care about the little difference in quality which might not even show on regular TV's.
Besides, if it can be viewed, it can be recorded. If you want people to be able to view your movies on their TV, they will be able to record them. It's as futile as trying to protect an image on your website from being downloaded.
A DVD or a video can easily be ripped and distributed, maybe they should just stop selling those all together too?
Bring It On Home - II
Living Loving Maid (She's Just A Woman) - II
Immigrant Song - III
What Is And What Should Never Be - II
Ramble On - II
mmmm.. led zeppelin
First, is it possible for HBO et al. to broadcast Macrovision copy protection on their signal so that one cannot record such broadcasts? I know TiVo honors copy protection (on video tapes primarily) so I wondered.
My actual question, along a similar avenue, is whether the general public would repond in anger or in apathy to any real implentation of copy protection. Macrovision can be filtered out (but the copy of a VHS tape may not be worth the trouble) and CD copy protection hasn't caught on enough to trip up the masses. But what if copy protection just started appearing without warning, like that HBO scenario?
What is going to happen when the RIAA and the MPAA finally purchase the right representatives and get all of these laws and practices changed in their favor? Will people simply not watch some programs since they can't record them? Will there be an uprising after people are effected by all of this nerdy stuff they read about on the internet for so long? Will people simply go with the flow and accept the reductions in freedoms?
For every form of copy protection I've ever seen (dongled software, MS keys, macrovision, DAT copy bits, exploding paper, etc) there always seems to be a workaround to circumvent the protection and allow the copy... if that becomes impossible (it might at some point, they could get lucky) what will the public at large do?
I have to admit, I would almost (ALMOST) like to see all of these protections get implemented just to see what happens.
Unfortunately, I think the public at large will be angered, and they might even lament their inaction as it was all unfolding (that would be now), but they will feel and be powerless to make any changes. They will still patronize RIAA and MPAA properties and in time people will forget that we used to be able to tape movies to watch later.
Alternate scenarios encouraged...
They could just *force* the cable companies to watermark the movies that they do play on their digital airwaves. That way, they would not be "perfect" copies.
But Nooooo.... use legislation, not technology to make sure the profits keep coming in...
Apparently Jack Valenti hasn't watched a movie on TV recently. They're 33% commercial with half the interesting scenes cut out to accommodate and all the swear words overdubbed by people who sound nothing like the original actor. Perhaps he's more worried that people will be expecting a 99-cent flurry long after the promotion is over...
"Any one of you DARN GOOFS move and I'll execute every GOSH DARN last one of you!"
When they say something is Digital they mean either a zero or a one. There are only two possibilities. This is opposed to Analog where there is a big continuum of possibilities. So what does this mean for Digital TV? it means that the screen is either a zero or a one. This means that you either have a pure black screen or a pure white screen. That is all you can display. Consumers are not going to be happy about buying a $5000 strobe light.
I think people who want Digital TV should just rent "poltergeist" and leave it at that.
Go ahead. quit offering your movies for broadcast. Hey, while you're at it, quit offering them up for rental, as they can be copied there too. Better not sell them either.
:)
And gosh darn it, people are making illegal copies of your movies while they're still in the theatre, better quit having movies shown in theatres. Can't risk having anyone steal your precious products.
Oh, btw, you now make NO money, but at least you're secure in the fact that nobody has made a perfect copy of your movie. Must be a great relief huh?
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies.
Hmm... I sense here a possible money making opportunity. Let's create some "digital decay" software that screws up the digital content before it is broadcast. It would drop a frame here and there, change a few pixels now and then, etc. Then sell it to the MPAA. (Or licence it with a wicked EULA). Then they get to broadcast their crappy, edited-for-TV movies, and we can watch them without being evil-pirate-consumers!
Tell them that you, as a citizen, do not appreciate the FCC's FORCING us to have digital televisions, etc. Tell them they have NO business doing what they have been doing. Tell them to stop taking money from special interest groups over the majority of the citizens of the US. Tell them you are sick of their meddling and ignorance.Tell them or lose. Tell your congressman and your Representative. Congressmen are 2 per State, representatives are based on population, and therefore have NO State designations. They may think they do, but they are wrong. Mention to these fools that the words lead, leader, leadership and constituency DO Not appear in the US Constitution. Remind them who they work for, not against.
...because they can't wait to auction off the UHF TV spectrum that DTV is supposed to free up.
Sadly, this puts the RIAA and broadcasters (media providers of all sorts) in a strong position. If they don't get their way on this Firewire port-disabling, broadcast don't-copy-me-flag or whatever nonsense it is this week, they won't release the product. No product, no consumers. (Given the very weak sales of high-priced DTV equipment, it seems that consumers are perfectly happy with the 1954(!)-era NTSC 525-line colour standard.)
I think the industry can basically tell Congress, 'Mandate these features or we won't release media'. Without the media, no manufacturer would dare release hardware. If no one buys the new hardware (due to the lack of media), how could Congress release the old UHF spectrum to auction it off?
It just seems like DTV has been in turmoil from day one. I remember hearing of multiple competing formats in the late 80s and promises of a decision and some technology by the early 90s. Looks like that never happened...
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
I can't really blame TiVo for not including features that will be damned near useless, and have no demand, for about 4-6 years. That's a reasonable product cycle for electronics.
Now, I will laugh at the nimrod who buys an analog TiVo in 2005.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
One of the neater talks from DefCon (I just got back) was the GNU folks talking about doing RF decoding entirely in software.
Now, on its face, this sounds boring, until you realize that they can make a TV, HDTV, Cell Phone, radio, HAM, and CB transciever entirely in software. Once decoding is in software, we can choose whether to obey the broadcast flags or not. I suspect that this whole broadcast flag thing won't last that long if the GNU folks get that project really working well.
Jack Valenti, the head of the Motion Picture Association of America, has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast.
:-)
Is Jack Valenti trying to say that people actually watch movies on television anymore?
If you need any more proof that the man's certifiably insane, there it is.
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
...Jack Valenti who has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies."
So do it Jack. Stop playing your movies and lets see how long it will take before your advertizers pull their spots on TV because the millions of viewers won't be watching your movbies on TV and won't be watching those paid advertising spots. Hummm, seems to me you have a problem.
Seems to me that the viewing public has all the power. We just need a voice to lobby our case.
-- Knuckle Blood : Official Lube of Team Rusty Nuts.
is what time warner is doing with iControl-- they keep the content that you record and send it to you when you want it. And when on demand really starts to happen there wont even be a reason for that. tivo sucks anyway because you cant record 5.1 digital audio (whats the point then!!) there are solutions for this whole digital TV/replay tv problem. there should have been standards set early on. now is the time for congress to finalize this. btw- fuck hollywood, you people dont understand shit.
you see if you had true on demand (and didnt rip every one off for $5 to watch the matrix for the 50th time), and there was an "agreement" (god forbid we call it a law), that cable/sat providers that had built in on-demand services werent allowed to record these ondemand chanels then there is no problem. Time warners decision to not offer commercial skipping was 100% correct in the spirit of moving this stuff forward- customers cant expect everything they want either in this case. As much as i like free content, there is going to be changes comming in the future that i for one am not going to like. but if the price isnt outragouse, i wont mind (not paying $5 to the matrix agian)
btw- all your DVD players will be obsolete too, i hope you dont have a huge collection.
___
all spelling and grammer mistakes are unrelevant.
"Jack Valenti [...] has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies."
Alright, so you're saying that if you don't deny digital recording of digital television, you won't sell your product to TV broadcasters. So you're getting less money from fewer sales to broadcasters and you're also getting less money from people who might have bought a real copy if they were exposed to your movie via TV. All in all the consumer gets to keep more of their spending cash, or at least buy other things while MPAA sales dwindle.
Does anybody not see this as the MPAA shooting itself in the foot? Broadcasters only buy movies to fill up time slots they don't bother to try to fill with their own programming and only tend to buy movies (instead of airing more reruns) so they can compete with all the other broadcasters showing movies. Yank the movies out of the equation, you have a poorer MPAA while the broadcasters just fill the time slots with more reruns. Wah.
Of course, the MPAA doesn't give a rat's ass about customers, they (like all other corporations, by definition) care only about the investors. If they weren't so damned worried about appearing profitable to Wall Street, they'd be all for letting customers make their own perfect digital copies.
Hi MPAA,
If you don't want to allow us to use your technology then don't use our technology in your movies. You can make movies the old fashioned way - use miniatures and real explosions!
If you do want to use our technology, it's going to cost you billions - how about selling Linux render farms with a per set licensing fee of $1Million?
Wouldn't it be possible to rig up a tempest style machine, and send that input to an appropriate recording device? I think that I should hack the incoming signal because they might try to take control of my TV and the way I watch it, and I need to defend myself
the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies."
Perfect copies ? You mean, the blurry pan-and-scanned content-edited time-edited verions they show on cable ? Good lord.
DZM
full credit! I was listening to Zep II the other day, which may be why 4/5 of the songs are from it. For my money, I think IV is stronger, but II is definitely a classic.
The reason: Digital signals create perfect copies that won't degrade. Executives fear they would deliver perfect copies to millions of viewers.
Ummm. I disagree with Mr. Valenti in that I don't think a lot of consumers would really care whether their copy of the movie (be it video tape or digital) is absolutely perfect or not. True I don't know Jack (okay really bad pun:) but frankly I don't see people building giant archives of digital movie and depriving studios of their rental revenues and I don't think he thinks that is going to happen either. I mean the VCR has been around for decades and it hasn't hurt anyone and cutting out the commercials you can get a movie just as good as on cassette. The only possible thing easily facilitated copying of movie s from the TV without commercials might possibly hurt is the movie sales. However in that case most of them are new releases which arn't on TV for a few years anyways and even then they will all be on DVDs by the time this is relevant in which case you have all these special features which cannot be taped on TV.
I'm pretty sure is this is just another (paranoid?) attempt to get a little more control over the media with the hope that you could squeeze a little more cash out of the cnosumer and hopefully one that is destined to fail. I hope it seems as bizarre to the rest of the world as it does to me in that you are losing control your TV and you can't choose what to watch on your own terms. If they continue these shinadigans (okay I know misspelt that) I think the general public might be approaching the point where they starts percieving these so called "prirates" who are copying media and watching region encryped DVDs as Robin Hoods (there seems to have been that perception here for a while). I'm not sure how anxious I am to reach that point but when we finally do (and we are well on course) it will be interesting to see who ends up on top.
I stole this Sig
Isn't the reason we are all going to be forced to switch to digital tv a ploy by the MPAA to control the digital content and, under the dmca, "prevent" us from copying their content? Now they are making threats that they are going to stop providing that content because, once again, the "techie" population knows their technology better than they do and can find loopholes?
I think something needs to be done about Valenti. Sic Kenneth Starr on his ass
Perfect copies of movies? HA, you think I would want to keep an edited for TV, Commercial ridden, and often resized copy just because I can? it's a waste of space. DVD's six months and older are going for under $20 often under $15. Granted you can snip out the breaks and what not but they watermark anyway so it's not a serious keeper. (Except with some TV show like DUNE) This is just a wall of sound from the MPAA. Time shifting is still the only real advantage of a DVR. The tech has improved but the uses really remain the same.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
If a movie is good, it's cheaper to buy a dvd than to pay for Pay Per View. At least you can watch it whenever you please and you can pause it to go to the loo.
The only time I watch movies on cable is when I have nothing better to do. I have yet to purchase one on Pay Per View but I will rent a DVD that I've seen before if the movie was good, even if it's free on TV, at least nothing is cut out and it has no poor editing such as changing words to meet the TV audience.
I have moderator points and I'm not using them go figure.
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
the signal still has to get from the cable box to the tv unencoded (unless your tv has to be certified with a certain cable provider, which is not going to happen)...so why not just route the signal through the tivo and from tivo to tv.
I realize that tivo does not support HD, but it seems to me that 'turn off the firewire port' would not stop them from producing a model that could.
am I missing something?
If you read the article (heh), the point that wired makes is that the movies won't be available to record because valenti is afraid they'll be copied, not that your TiVO won't be able to display them. I have a dishPVR for my satellite system, but i'll probably upgrade it to a HD PVR in the next 4 years anyway.
beware the jabberwock, my son! the jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
And Slashdotterz are not the only ones who will know to pop onto Sourceforge and grab the *fix*. How do I know this? I've seen in schools kindergarten kids (5 years of age) using Dell Laptops and Instant Messaging and Internet Exploer. I'm proud of having used Z-Modem prototal and BBS's at age 10, but get ready, because a generation of uber-tech-savy consumers is growing up and when little-missy-8-year-old wants to watch Disney on whatever device she chooses, little-missy-8-year-old is gonna fuck!n find a way.
Dateline 2006:
Today Congress passed a bill that would allow multimedia content providers to send a flag with certain broadcasts that would render digital recording devices unable to record them. Speaker of the House Berman said, "This is a great blow against content stealers and copyright infringers everywhere."
Expect an easy workaround to be Slashdotted later this week.
There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.
.. MPAA head Jack Valenti who has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies."
Hey Jack, for most people on this planet, for almost all of history, there have been other [better] ways of entertaining one's self other than watching a movie.
Perhaps instead of getting 350 restricted channels, I'll just start paying my $100/month for 10 commercial free, high quality stations that allow me to record.
Eventually the industry will make its product so crappy some newcomers will come in and take over. Adapt or step out of the way. Otherwise, you'll get trounced eventually.
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
Right. So let me get this straight.
The MPAA says they may not be able to show edited, commercial-ridden movies over the airwaves. Where's the problem?
that every channel now has 1/10 of the screen taken up by their stupid corporate logo? My favorite is TNN. I love watching a compressed version of the movie while useless shit constantly scrolls along the bottom and distracts me from the show. Just how long is it going be the "new TNN" anyway? That dam logo has said that for like 3 years now.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
This is such a staggeringly stupid thing to say, it occurs to me to wonder if we're not being misdirected.
Could it be that Mr. Valenti isn't trying to sabotage the people pirating movies, but instead going after the root cause of the decline of old-fashioned hollywood power: the television itself?
If we come to a day where (due to alleged concerns about piracy) the gullible public will accept that the studios have a legitimate reason NOT to release their films on DVD, then aren't we back in a pre-VCR era where to see a movie in it's full glory you actually have to go to a THEATER? Suddenly re-releases come back as a valid market-milking strategy, theater revenues/values climb and the only way you get to see a film EVER is by paying them the ticket price EVERY TIME YOU WATCH IT?
Granted, it sounds pretty damn stupid to me too, but this is the same industry that thinks they make more money by selling $8 tickets and $6 popcorn, and then can't figure out why people would rather sit at home, eat (nearly) free popcorn and pay a $4 rental fee no matter how many people watch it.
-Styopa
I hope nobody with a photographic memory gets to go to the movies, then. They'd only ever have to see a movie once, thus depriving the hard-working movie industry of any repeat business, which, as we all know, is equivalent to not only stealing, but ROBBING, RAPING, AND MURDERING PEOPLE ON THE HIGH SEAS!!
Now we know where whirlpools come from: Blackbeard spinning in his watery grave fast enough to create a new subduction zone.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
It won't happen. They will threaten and try to prevent it, but when push come to shove, they make lots of money when a movie is brocast on HBO, Showtime, etc. They make even more when it is shown on network TV. They won't turn down the revenue in the end... If they can't prevent it, they will still allow their movies to be broadcast. They tried the same sh*t with VHS rentals.
What is really need is for the tech industry to say "fine, don't sell your content! oh wait that is your buisness - damn, I guess you either use our hardware of go out of buisness!"
Put them in their place.
Spell check? Why bother. That is what grammer/spelling Nazi freaks who waiste band width posting "spell right" are for.
"Perfect copies" - spare me.
... well I'll let you guess what it looks like)
Here in the UK we can get Digital TV over the airwaves, by satellite or over Cable, and ALL of them have terrible picture quality (funnily enough the adverts are the only parts that they seem to pre-compress and spend some time and effort doing properly), because the broadcasters MPEG encode on the fly, and try to get a much higher compression ratio than their hardware will allow. This is most obvious with live TV (news and sport especially, and when the news footage was already compressed to come over the satellite, then expanded and re-compressed
Digital TV is nearly unwatchable at times - when the picture isn't breaking up and freezing then the MPEG artefacts and the blurred textures render stuff unwatchable. Go to a TV shop, and get them to show you BBC1 on analog and on digital on 2 adjacent TV's and you'll never want digital TV.
My wife runs a DVD mastering studio, and she just kills herself laughing at the picture quality over Sky etc.
--
T
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
All the timing of the adverts across the channels, the interwoven contexts of the ads to programming, other stuff, gets all screwed up when the consumer is allowed to actively participate.
And there's the possibilities of watching the programming without seeing the ads at all. No no no, can't have that. Bad consumer! Bad!
They're gonna put you in your place though. Its not your medium, it's theirs. It is not for your benefit.
I was watching the sci-fi channel and saw this show where people were gouging their own eyes out. Macabre dispays are classic methods for setting up an impressionable state of mind. villian claws his own eyes out, looks up to reveal the blood rimmed sockets: pulse rate goes up as subject reels at the macabre horror: break for commercial.
I've been trying to tell you. Had all sorts of psych classes, was really into that shit. THEY'RE FUCKING WITH YOUR HEAD. Understand? Is the programming so good that you'll give a slew of corporate scientists hours a day to experiment various ways to ring your bells? Are you letting these people fuck with your kids?
I'm already down to about 6 hours a week of television.
Heck, I bought the 36" Sony more for playing video games anyway. ;-)
Don't worry that your TiVo will break 4 years from now for any reason other than the bearings on the HD failing.
This is a huge bluff--but they know that the other side (cable companies) will blink first. Without the MPAA's movies, most premium cable channels will be severely lacking in content. So the MPAA is putting the cable companies forcibly on their side in the bargaining with Congress.
Well, on the bright side we've got until 2006 before the shakedown begins. I'm still planning on going out and buying that ATI All-in-Wonder 8500DV to timeshift/record my analog TV while I still can.
"I may be quite wrong." - Socrates
The 2006 deadline will be pushed back because not enough digital TVs will have been purchased, and the reason people won't be buying them is simple: the technology DOESN'T WORK.
The government's going to have to give up on the idea of selling broadcast spectrum (which is why they are trying to shove digital TV down our throats when the technology is so screwed up). Americans may not care about who runs the country (see the last 30 years of U.S. presidents) but one thing they DO care about is their TV. When Americans wake up to this absurd plan to shut off the broadcast signals (and right now most people have no idea that's what's being planned) they will rise up in a mass of angry electorate so fierce politicians will be trampling each other to push the digital deadline back many years.
The next step will be to get the electronics companies to stop bickering, throw out the current technology and create a digital TV standard that works cleanly everywhere and allows people to upgrade using affordable set-top boxes.
THEN we can get to the issue of intellectual property.
Anyway, there is already enough disincentive to tape movies from TV: Commericals, including network logos in the corner; and censorship/editing. When you consider all the extra features they put on DVDs, it just makes more sense to pick up an original feature-rich copy at the store than to deal with and edited and censored for TV mess.
To further my point...I videotaped six of the 8 seasons of Red Dwarf off of PBS. I bought 2 seasons at Suncoast. At this point, I have little reason to buy the official tapes of the seasons I taped myself...moreso since they're commercial-free on PBS. However, if BBC was to come out with DVD sets of those seasons that include all sorts of extra material, I would snap them up in a second!
Of course, if Hollywood is stubborn enough to not broadcast their tripe, you can always get off your ass and volunteer to walk dogs and play with cats at your local animal shelter.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
perfect copies of movies is just a red herring.
What it's really about is disabling TiVo type devices so that the mass of consumers don't adopt a technology that allows the easy automatic skipping of commercials... because that would seriouly f*** with someone's revenue stream!
This is not news.
There will be new products that will support digital TV. There will be a new TiVo equivalent device. You will have to buy new hardware.
Geeks don't think twice about buying the latest computing hardware, switching CPU architectures, etc., but god forbid somebody need to update their television from 60 year old technology.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
I have a good HD TV and Time Warner gets me my HD content via a 3100HD cable box. No antenna so it's easy and cheap.
But, I want better content. I'd be much happier gettings History, Discovery, and A&E in HD than I would with the major networks. Will & Grace still sucks in HD. Nothing will change that. But, give me shows on Egypt's pyramids and nature shows in HD and that will be something. It would actually ENHANCE the show's experience.
Movies on HBO in HD are nice, though. Better than DVD.
NEW YORK, N.Y. - The Magazine Publishers of America (MPA), an industry association which represents more than 1200 consumer publications, announced today that all of its magazine will now come equipped with special "AccuView" viewing filters. These new magazines can only be read through these special filters, which slightly distort the pictures and text.
When pressed for comment, an MPA spokesperson stated, "Well, good Lord man, we don't people getting their hands on perfect copies of these things.. just think of the possible consequences! Boston Strangler, woman alone, need I say more? We are confident our new AccuView technology will protect the priceless intellectual property of our members, while still providing a rich "AccuViewing" experience for our cherished revenue strea- I er.. readers."
Coming stories: Next generation computers which cannot copy bits, and Ford unveils its new wood burning automobile engine. Thank you for reading.
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
I think it would be great if the MPAA members refused to let their works be broadcast on digital television. It would leave all the bandwidth available for filmmakers who actually want their productions to be viewed.
I no longer watch anything produced or distributed by MPAA members anyway, so this greatly improve the availability of acceptible material on television.
tato (and tato only)
This post is strictly opinion, including the spelling.
I can understand the MPAA's point, for some movies you would get a perfect copy. Let say you send $2 to watch a Movie off PPV, but you can't copy it. Now lets say you upgrade the movie so you can copy it, now it cost $8 but you get to keep a copy and the movie companys don't have to pay for disc/tape production.
...that testified under oath that the VCR was to Hollywood what the Boston
strangler was to women home alone?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Change is a vital quality in any industry, the ability to change your business to accomidate for the changes that are occuring in the world around you. In this case, the MPAA is resisting change and trying to reverse the situation by changing the world and Mr. Valinti is their leader. Never has it worked before and it won't work again, put copy protection on movies and either people will just stop watching them on TV (yay for blockbuster) or some 14 year old kid will figure out how to bypass whatever stupid technology they implement.
It's not going to work, learn to live within the reality that we call life and change your business to suit. This Valinti guy is the biggest idiot I've ever heard of, you know NBC, ABC, and CBS used to be radio stations right? What happened when TV came along? Well, they became TV stations.
Could assholes like Jack Valenti and Bud Selig have their positions.
We can bitch about Valenti's and the MPAA's techniques all we want. We can force them either to broadcast their movies in a way we can record perfectly, or not broadcast them at all. But there's a reason the MPAA is whining: they see this as undercutting their revenues. And no corporation will be satisifed with producing the same product for less compensation.
You like watching $100 million movies like LOTR and the Matrix? Where do you think that $100 million comes from? Part is from theatres; part of it is from broadcast rights. A large chunk comes from video/DVD sales and rentals, which is what they're worried will go down if people can trade perfect copies.
It's an equation, it has to balance out. Either the cost of making the movies will go down (resulting in lower-quality movies) or the price at the theatre, the TV station*, and the video store will go up. Think about it long and hard before you lobby Congress to allow everyone to record and exchange perfect copies of movies. Somewhere, somehow, you'll pay for it.
As many people have pointed out, the media companies do not have a guaranteed right to profit. But neither do you have a guaranteed right to high-quality media for low prices.
* If the TV station or cable channel has to pay more for the movies, then they'll pass that on to you in the form of more commercials or higher subscription fees.
Fuck Jack Velanti. Fuck him right in the ear! Why the hell shouldn't I be able to record what I watch on TV?
It's enough to make you give up TV and stick to books. At least with books you can read it as often as you like!
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Why bother copying an air broadcast signal when I can copy directly from the media the TV station is using to generate the original signal in the first place?
I don't have to piece it back together then. 5 years DVD players will be $20 bucks, and the cheap taiwan imports will not have any such Protection technology.
Or I'll just by my player in "O Canada..."
is it possible for HBO et al. to broadcast Macrovision copy protection on their signal so that one cannot record such broadcasts?
On digital cable and direct-broadcast satellite, yes.
I don't know whether Macrovision can be sent over analog cable & whether it would be possible to unscramble the "premium channel" CATV scrambling while leaving (or adding in the box) Macrovision.
On digital boxes, however, extra bits in the MPEG sream or simply stuff in the program guide information can be used to turn on the Macrovision-generation stuff in the Digital ENCoder (DENC) which encodes YUV digital video into NTSC or PAL.
That is if the DENC has such a feature. I know that some chips (which are usually well-integrated: MPEG & AC-3 decode + graphics + DENC & in Broadcom's case, a complete "settop on a chip") are offered in two versions: Macrovision & not because some box builders might not want to pay for the license.
So, yes, in some cable/sat. systems (where the operator bought the right box that had the right chip), you could prevent a TiVo from being able to "back up" a show to VCR. Macrovision in cable boxes was primarily considered for Pay-per-view, though, not for premium channels. I don't know of any USA systems doing it, but I get the impression from a UK TiVo review that BskyB does.
One thought in the US was to have two pay-per-view prices-- pay more to disable macrovision. I believe that was an idea the box makers & system operators cooked up & don't know if the MPAA would go for it, but it suggests one way out of this that pisses off fewer people.
Maybe the policymakers need to distinguish between boxes like TiVo that make "ephemeral" copies and VCRs/DVD-recorders.
So, they won't broadcast thier movies? So what? People WILL have movies, and so in response to that demand, other people will gladly produce them. Let Valenti sit on the sidelines with his precious film canisters and see how much they are worth in 10 years.
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Ok, for 1080i:
704 pixels x 1080 lines x 30 Hz x 16 bits = 995.3 Mb/s
OTA transmission has a maximum bit rate of 19.6Mb/s set by the FCC
Explain to me how your 51:1 compressed video looks "virtually indistinguishable from the uncompressed master", unless of course you've never actually seen uncompressed 1080i.
TV isn't everything.
"The proposal is being considered no doubt in response to fears like that of MPAA head Jack Valenti who has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast because they don't want viewers to record 'perfect copies' of movies."
Fine by me. Keep your mits off my hardware and I promise I won't view any of your pathetic drivel.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
"No product, no consumers" - hey, it's not like they give their movies to the cable stations. If they don't want the money ...
I'll put my money on one of the film companies breaking ranks for a better deal. And probably the smallest of them!
Who would want to allow their content to be copied by consumers? Independent film and video outfits, that's who.
I am also so sick of bleeps and 'time-compressed' content on the networks, I've considered starting up my broadcast station for subscription which only shows uncensored material. I'D PAY FOR THAT.
We consumers should start considering these futile attempts to completely control distribution as damage, and route around them.
Nature abhors a vacuum. If you don't make them, someone else will, and they will be GLAD to have them seen/copied.
As to the "perfect copy", well, that's baldershit. Compressed Digital is no different from analog, is not "perfect". Every time you compress/decompress, you lose quality, JUST LIKE ANALOG TO ANALOG.
This "perfect copy" crap is CRAP. The only way to know your copy is perfect is if you have the original store bought CD/DVD to copy from, in which case you already PAID for it.
-steve
springfield fragfest
I hate to tell ya Jack but I've already got a perfect digital copy of what came down the dish and I REALLY enjoy being able to pause it indefinitely without your permission.
My $.02
MMMmmmmmm....erotic cakes!!! Homer J. Simpson - Treehouse of Horror VI
What upsets me is that theft is now seen as morally fine, and that the providers' business model is "broken" because it is so easy, safe, and convenient to steal their product [1].
What's even weirder is that so many people say "If I could download this stuff for $1 per song I'd gladly do it and never Napster again!". I'm getting the impression that people feel a sense of entitlement to music, that if it is "too expensive" they have a right to steal it.
Not (trying to) troll, but can someone please explain this to me?
[1] I know there is a debate here over whether you can really "steal" digital content.
This guy is as paranoid as those freaks who have bomb shelters and 2 years of rations in their basements.
If you weren't reading my mind right now, I would take offense to that remark.
When I can't use my Tivo, I'm not watching any more TV. Time-shifting is the ONLY way I can see the handful of programs I want to see around my schedule. Not to mention the fact that most of the stuff I watch isn't exactly prime-time, or even on when I'm awake. Without time-shifting, I won't be able to watch it anyway-- so why pay for it?
How bad can TV, movies, and music get before nobody even wants to steal them anymore? I think we're nearing an inflexion point here.
I think Temptation Island, The Country Bears, and the Backstreet Boys are essentially self copy-protecting. Valenti & co have won.
This shocked me when I read it, but it does make sense. Read:
, 00 .html
:(
http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,54332
Basically, the US Congress wants, is counting on, proceeds from the sale of digital spectrum. They need it to balance the budget in 2006. That is the only reason they dictated the move to DTV in 2006 in the first place.
Every other story on Slashdot about draconian measures put on DTV (even that bane of the computer industry, the Hollings bill) is the result of the MPAA's panic over their loss of control over their content. It seems Congress neglected to ask their permission to switch the country over to all digital. Of course they want to place the responsibility, cost, and burden of maintaining that control on everybody else (cable operators, broadcasters, manufacturers and the end user). The FCC is struggling under a barrage of conflicting requirements, and is expected to miraculously sort it all out by 2006 to everyone's satisfaction.
So when 2006 rolls around, either we have DTV with all sorts of draconian restrictions that the US citizens will hate (causing the great Couch-Potato Riots of 2006), or the US Congress will have a massive budgetary shortfall that may make them unable to run the country.
Boy, I'm looking forward to that almost as much as I did Y2K.
Bells are ringing: Mothra, Mothra! Every heart is calling: Mothra, Mothra!
Come on, Tok Wira, these sharks have gotta pay! New Kirk calling Mothra, we need you today!
It's no surprise that consumers aren't moving quickly to buy all those HDTV's - companies are doing their best to kill the market, what with 18 different digital signal formats, every company requiring their own proprietary tuner (rendering HDTV ready sets over priced, as the built in tuner doesn't work with their setup), existing recording devices unable to record digital signals, and the threat of even if you do buy that new, shiney $1000 digital recording device, there's a good chance it'll be more useful to you as a paperweight than an actual recording device.
Honestly, I don't see how they could make it more difficult for people to adapt this new technology. FCC wants 85% of househoulds to be digital ready by '06 so they can sell the analog bandwidth to cellular companies, yet consider legislation that actually turns people away from doing this. It's like going to buy a new car, and having the salesman tell me that the onstar feature is directly linked to the engine, and if the satellite thinks I'm going to an Art museum instead of the higher margin generating Braves game, it'll shut the car down until the museum closes. Remind me again, why would I buy this car?
It should have read "Moron: The Effect of Digital TV"
Jack Valenti, the head of the Motion Picture Association of America
Instantly brings me the image of a head in a jar, on the best Futurama style. I was laughing on the idea.
As long as star trek reruns are recordable, I couldn't care less. By the time I have every single episode on my hard drive, the MPAA will be out of buisness and I can record whatever else I want to my heart's delight.
Any exec that thinks MPEG2 can deliver a 'perfect' copy, hasn't seen MPEG2. Compression artifacts regularly seen in DVDs and DSS are a huge step down from a clean analog or uncompressed digital source. Besides, 99% of the crap Hollywood puts out isn't worth spending disk space on anyway.
I'm getting so sick of these MPAA/RIAA assholes. Wouldn't it just be easier for everyone if we all just chipped in a couple bucks/euros/whatever and hire a top notch team of government 'cleaners' to 'clean' them off the face of the Earth? Hell, according to the mighty MPAA/RIAA im a criminal for having back-ups of my CDs, may as well move onto murder, uh...I mean human services.
How exactly can any company or group of companies threaten to not provide a service or product? Or in this case... not provide the full service that we as consumers are entitled too... even if we are still paying the full price (price of the cable bill).
I mean, how stupid would it be if there was a gas station that pitched up a sign that said, "Sorry, we are not going to sell gas here till you all agree to only buy gas here for the rest of your lives." Or maybe a sign like, "We will only now be offering you gas that you can't use outside of this state... as that would cut on the sales of another state's gas station."
Would anyone even go there to get gas anymore?
So this guy has been sniffing glue for how many years??? Clearly, his ability as a leader is second to none... We all know that the video rental business was responsible for the utter downfall of the movie industry, and that their sales keep declining with every new release.
I think someone needs to throw this guy out on his ass and let him go live out in normal society for a while, instead of the pampered room full of yes-men and monkeys with typewriters that he's obviously living in now.
You must now wear federally mandated, MPAA approved earplugs and blindfolds whenever you watch a movie. Further, you are required to be tied to a chair in order to sit through the whole thing, not skip any commercials and not keep a copy for yourself.
Further, I have patented these devices and will now sue anyone who 1) uses a blindfold or earplugs, whether or not it is in the interest of protecting a film; 2) uses a chair for any reason, whether or not it is to watch a film, blindfolded or not and 3) engages in or is tied up by anyone else (although I will consider cross-licensing this technology for the purposes of creating unrated films.
Now the world is safer!
would allow cable companies to 'turn off' the firewire port, which DVR's will use to connect to digital televisions, so that some broadcasts can't be recorded.
That should read "which DVR's could use to connect".
Circuit City's experiment in controlling the home viewing habits of movies utterly failed once consumers rejected it.
It seems entirely possible it could happen with copy-protected digital TV as well.
Remember, the movie industry makes far more by selling VHS/DVDs of the movie than the movie actually made in theaters. If this wasn't the case, we would still be subject to rereleases in theaters (not that that's entirely gone away, it's just that Disney's about the only company still doing it, things like Apocalypse Now Redux notwithstanding), since the studios release movies of their own volition.
That being said, that's exactly what DivX was - a way to get money everytime you watch it.
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
See, for example, this draft (PDF), and this report (MSWord doc).
Technical information is available from the ATSC website. The RC descriptor is in document A/65A, Amendment 3.
The EFF has written a letter to the FCC Chairman. It's a good read and would give you good talking points if you were to write you own letter to the FCC. (hint hint)
-- Are you an EFF member yet?
well i dont see the hub ub about this, i mean im fine with downloading my movies from nice lil dvd rippers, a TV i dont think will ever be "pertfect" but i mean, people watch cheap qualaty shows of broadcast tv all the time now, so why worry about movies as long as we have dvd's?
If it is digitial it is not possible to make a "perfect copy" as the uncompressed video feed is not available only the compressed video (MPEG whatever) with all its compression artifacts.
The canadian BellExpressVue PVR is all digital already, so what's the fuss.
----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
"Also mentioned is a proposal being considered by the FCC that would allow cable companies to 'turn off' the firewire port"
And two hours later, some 15 year old from Norway will "turn it back on."
"But the cars are all flashing me, bright lights are passing me, I feel life passing me by" - Stiff Little Fingers
Since when do I see a 'perfect copy' in the movie theater? Is all that dust, all those scratches, part of the product? Are DVD's editing out the director's "dirty footage"?
Isn't it about availability? If DVD's were available concurrently with first theater run, would there still be a streetcorner market for discs?
And what's going to prevent some electronically saavy folks from posting instructions for DVR Mods to their web-sites? If you know what chip is what, it's not exactly rocket science ... or is it? LOL Anyway, it's no different from pirate satellite TV. Piece of cake.
BB -Yew