The Web's Longest Disclaimer

An anonymous reader writes "American Airlines are nominated for the 'longest website enduser agreement' category with customers requiring to accept this mammoth 'I accept' dialog before using their site. The tale of the tape includes: 181 paragraphs; 3482 words; and 22411 characters. However even mentioning this is probably in violation of the text."

Comments

Wow!

[RinkSpringer]

...and even a printable version, in case my toilet runs out of paper ... now *that* is service!

Re:Wow!

[efagerho]

I wonder if they can deliver enough of it for my needs? Wonder when they start to consider my toilet paper consumption as a denial of service attack... as that was clearly not permitted according to the EULA.

Re:Wow!

[fccf]

funny you mentioned this..
once upon a time a friend of mine was in a desprite need of good floppies.. and he went to the site of some PIC making company and submited five times the request form for free technical info.. in a 2 days he got 5 sets of 2 good SONY floppies - one with the PDFs and one with AcrobatReader 2.something.. now, 5x2 = 10 good disks free.. what a deal, huh :)

Re:Wow!

[Kierthos]

Fuck 'em. I fly Delta.

Kierthos

Re:Wow!

[Anonymous Coward]

Introduction

Thank you for visiting the American Airlines web site titled "aa.com" (the "Site"). In return for gaining access to the Site and using it, you agree to be bound by the following Agreement without limitation or qualification, so please carefully review this Agreement before proceeding. If you do not intend to be legally bound by these terms and conditions, do not access and use the Site. American Airlines reserves the right to change this Agreement and to make changes to any of the products or programs described in the Site at any time without notice or liability. Any such revisions are prospectively binding on you and therefore you should periodically visit this page when you use the Site to review the then current Agreement that binds you. American Airlines also reserves the right in its sole and unfettered discretion to deny you access to the Site at any time. American Airlines enters into agreements with third parties from time to time to provide our customers with the opportunity to obtain special services, products or prices offered by the third party. You will not be deemed to be violating this agreement when acting in accordance with the terms and conditions of any such program. Likewise, the terms and conditions in this agreement will be considered broadened to the extent needed to permit such third parties to operate within the terms of a written agreement they have entered into with us. The titles in this Agreement are provided only for your convenience and are not to be used in interpreting the Agreement.

Intellectual property notifications

Unless otherwise noted, all information, AAdvantage account information, articles, data, images, passwords, Personal Identification Numbers ("PINs"), screens, text, user names, web pages, or other materials (collectively "Content") appearing on the Site are the exclusive property of AMR Corporation or American Airlines, Inc., or their subsidiaries and affiliates:

A. All information, products, services and software contained on or used in the Site ("Content") is Copyright 2002 by American Airlines, Inc. All rights reserved. Please assume that everything you see or read on the Site is copyrighted to, or used with permission by, American Airlines unless otherwise noted.

B. The trademarks, logos, service marks, and trade dress (collectively the "Trademarks") displayed on the Site are registered and unregistered Trademarks of American Airlines, Inc. or others.

C. Images of people, objects, or places displayed on the Site are either the property of, or used with permission by American Airlines, Inc., American Eagle Airlines, Inc., AMR Corporation, AMR Training Group, TWA Airlines LLC or AMR Investment Services.

D. American Airlines owns or uses by permission all software contained on the Site, including without limitation all HTML code and Active X controls. Copyright and other laws and international treaty provisions protect this software. The law expressly prohibits any modification, redistribution, or reproduction of the software, and such actions could result in severe civil and criminal penalties. American Airlines will seek and support prosecuting violators to the maximum extent possible.

E. You may not copy, display, distribute, download, license, modify, publish, re-post, reproduce, reuse, sell, transmit, use to create a derivative work, or otherwise use the content of the Site for public or commercial purposes. Nothing on the Site shall be construed to confer any grant or license of any intellectual property rights, whether by estoppel, by implication, or otherwise.

F. For additional information regarding American's intellectual property, please click on the "Copyright" link at the bottom of any page.

Your representations and warranties

By using the Site, you represent and warrant that you are 18 years of age or older and possess the legal right and ability to enter into this Agreement and to use the Site in accordance with all of the terms and conditions of this Agreement. You accept financial responsibility for all use of the Site under your name or account, including without limitation all uses of your account by others, including minors living with you. You may allow other members of your household to use the Site under your name or account only if you agree to pay all charges that they incur and to be responsible for all other aspects of their usage. You further agree to supervise all minors who use the Site under your name or account. You agree not to assign, transfer, or sublicense your rights pursuant to this Agreement.

Your indemnity obligation

You agree to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless American Airlines and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, demands, proceedings, suits and actions, including any related liabilities, obligations, losses, damages, deficiencies, penalties, taxes, levies, fines, judgments, settlements, expenses (including legal and accountants' fees and disbursements) and costs (collectively, "Claims"), based on, arising out of or resulting from your use of the Site, including without limitation any Claims alleging facts that if true would constitute your breach of this Agreement.

Limitations on your use

American Airlines provides the Site solely to permit you to determine the availability of goods and services offered on the Site and to make legitimate reservations or otherwise transact business with American Airlines, and for no other purposes. The Site is for your personal, non-commercial use. You agree that you will use the Site's services only to make legitimate reservations or purchases for you or for another person for whom you are authorized to act both legally and under the terms of this Agreement.

You agree that without limitation you shall not make any false reservation or any reservation in anticipation of demand. If American Airlines determines that you have confirmed multiple reservations to one or more destination on or about the same date, American Airlines may without notice cancel all confirmed space associated with the multiple reservations. You agree to abide by the terms and conditions of purchase American Airlines imposes including, but not limited to, payment of all amounts when due and compliance with all rules regarding availability of fares, products, or services. You are completely responsible for all assessments, charges, duties, fees, and taxes arising out of your use of the Site.

Your account information is owned by and proprietary to American Airlines. While you may access your account information through the Site, you may not give access to your account to any person or entity other than a member of your household or a person that you directly supervise as part of your career or employment. You may not give access to your account to any third party on-line service, including, but not limited to any mileage management service, mileage tracking service, or mileage aggregation service.

You must access your account information directly through the Site and not through a third party web site, including but not limited to any mileage management service, mileage tracking service, or mileage aggregation service. You also violate this Agreement if you enable an AAdvantage member to access account information without visiting the Site.

You agree that you will not Misuse the Site. "Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following:

A. Distribute, disseminate, post, or publish any information or material that degrades, embarrasses, harasses, humiliates, intimidates, or threatens any individual or group of individuals on the basis of their age, ancestry, color, ethnicity, marital status, medical condition, mental or physical disability, national origin, race, sex, sexual orientation, union or nonunion affiliation, or any other basis protected by federal, state, or local law or ordinance.

B. Abuse, defame, harass, stalk, threaten, or otherwise violate others' legal rights, including but not limited to rights of privacy and publicity.

C. Download or upload files that may damage the operation of another's computer, such as computer viruses, corrupt files, or similar software.

D. Download or upload files that contain materials, including but not limited to software that violate the intellectual property, privacy, or publicity rights of others unless you own, control, or have been authorized to exercise such rights.

E. Misrepresent or omit the origin or source of any file you download or upload.

F. Download or upload files that do not contain the posted proprietary language, author attributions, and/or copyright, patent, or trademark notices.

G. Distribute, disseminate, post, or publish any indecent, infringing, obscene, or unlawful information or material.

H. Engage in any commercial purpose including but not limited to:
1) Advertising or offering to sell any goods or services.
2) Conducting contests or surveys.
3) Distributing chain letters, or advertising with respect to any Ponzi scheme or pyramid scheme.
4) Advertising or offering to sell any business opportunities, direct sales opportunities, employment, independent contractor positions, multi-level marketing opportunities, or securities.

I. Post, send, or otherwise disclose confidential information, trade secrets, or other confidential and/or protected proprietary data of any entity or person, including but not limited to AMR Corporation, American Airlines, Inc., American Eagle Airlines, Inc., AMR Investment Services, AMR Training Group or TWA Airlines LLC, or any of their affiliates.

J. Download or upload files that you know, or reasonably should know, cannot be legally distributed through the Site.

K. Upload, download, or otherwise export or re-export software from the Site: (1) to a national or resident of or into any country the U.S. has embargoed, including without limitation, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Syria, or Yugoslavia; (2) to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's Specially Designated Nationals list, or (3) to anyone on the U.S. Commerce Department's Table of Denial Orders.

L. Copy or create derivative works from, display, distribute, license, perform, publish, recreate, reproduce, sell, transfer, or transmit any information, products, services, or software obtained by, from, or through the Site.

M. Monitor or copy any Content by using any manual process, or any robot, spider, or other automatic device, without first obtaining American Airlines' prior written consent.

N. Act as an agent or attorney in fact for any person who is not:
1) A member of your immediate household; or
2) Your direct supervisor at your place of employment.

O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure.

P. Act as a mileage management service, mileage tracking service or mileage aggregation service for any AAdvantage member.

Q. Access information about any AAdvantage member protected by site log-in and post it on any other web site, with or without that AAdvantage member's consent.

R. Utilize an AAdvantage member's password or personal identification number during log-in, unless you are:
1. The AAdvantage member to whom that password or personal identification number is assigned (the "Authorized AAdvantage member");
2. A family member of the Authorized AAdvantage Member, acting with the Authorized AAdvantage Member's permission; or
3. An employee of the Authorized AAdvantage Member's employer, acting with the Authorized AAdvantage Member's permission.

S. Engage in any other conduct that is, or that American Airlines deems to be, in conflict with this Agreement.

American Airlines forbids such Misuses, and access of the Site for any such Misuses or other similar purposes is an unauthorized use of the Site.

No warranty by American Airlines

The Content may contain inaccuracies and/or typographical errors. American Airlines may alter, change or improve the Content at any time and without notice. American Airlines makes no representations or warranties as to the Content's completeness or accuracy, and makes no commitment to update the Content. American Airlines makes no representations about the Content's suitability for any purpose.

YOU USE THE SITE AT YOUR OWN RISK. THE CONTENT IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, MERCHANTABILITY, NON-INFRINGEMENT OR TITLE. IN NO EVENT SHALL AMERICAN AIRLINES OR ITS AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES (WHETHER CONSEQUENTIAL, DIRECT, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, PUNITIVE, SPECIAL OR OTHERWISE) ARISING OUT OF, OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH, THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR FOR ANY OF THE CONTENT OBTAINED THROUGH OR OTHERWISE IN CONNECTION WITH THE SITE, IN EACH CASE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH DAMAGES ARE BASED ON CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, TORT OR OTHER THEORIES OF LIABILITY, AND ALSO REGARDLESS OF WHETHER AMERICAN AIRLINES WAS GIVEN ACTUAL OR CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE THAT DAMAGES WERE POSSIBLE.

American Airlines neither warrants nor represents that your use of information and material on the Site will not infringe upon the intellectual property rights of third parties. American Airlines shall not be liable for any virus or other damage to your computer equipment or other property due to your accessing, browsing, or using the Site or due to your downloading any audio, data, images, materials, pictures, text or video from the Site.

Because American Airlines provides services and products in many parts of the world, the Site may refer to certain goods, products, and/or services that are not available in your area. A reference to goods, products, and/or services without limiting their geographic scope does not imply that American Airlines offers or intends to offer those goods, products, and/or services in all locations.

Use of information you provide American Airlines

Consistent with the American Airlines privacy policy, we ask you to provide us with certain information when you purchase travel or when you take advantage of certain personalized services. You agree that when you provide such information, the information will be accurate. Under no circumstances will you provide false or misleading information. We agree to use this information in a manner consistent with our privacy policy. To review our privacy policy, please click on the "Privacy Policy" link at the bottom of any page.

For use of certain services, we may provide you with a pass code. This pass code is proprietary to and the property of American Airlines. However, you must take precautions to insure the security of your pass code. American Airlines assumes no responsibility for and will not be liable in the event that another person learns your pass code or uses your pass code to cause damage to you.

While American Airlines takes reasonable steps to safeguard and to prevent unauthorized access to your private information, we cannot be responsible for the acts of those who gain unauthorized access, and we make no warranty, express, implied, or otherwise, that we will prevent unauthorized access to your private information. IN NO EVENT SHALL AMERICAN AIRLINES OR ITS AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES (WHETHER CONSEQUENTIAL, DIRECT, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, PUNITIVE, SPECIAL OR OTHERWISE) ARISING OUT OF, OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH, A THIRD PARTY'S UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO YOUR INFORMATION, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH DAMAGES ARE BASED ON CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, TORT OR OTHER THEORIES OF LIABILITY, AND ALSO REGARDLESS OF WHETHER AMERICAN AIRLINES WAS GIVEN ACTUAL OR CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE THAT DAMAGES WERE POSSIBLE.

No offer to sell or buy securities

The information on the Site does not constitute an offer to sell, or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities and must not be relied upon in connection with any investment decision.

Links to other sites and to the Site

The Site may provide hyperlinks or references to other sites. While American Airlines endeavors to provide links only to sites that are reputable and safe, we take no responsibility for the information, products, or services obtained on such other sites and will not be liable for any damages arising from your access to such sites. American Airlines provides any such links to other sites merely for your convenience and our inclusion of such links and frames in the Site does not imply an endorsement of the linked or framed sites, their content, or the persons or entities operating those sites. Therefore, you assume sole responsibility for using links or pointers to third parties.

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines. You are also denied permission to use any trademarked or copyrighted material to provide such hyperlinks or references, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines. American Airlines bears no responsibility for sites that provide hyperlinks or references to the Site unless those sites are operated by American Airlines.

Your communication with us

American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.

American Airlines does not accept or consider unsolicited proposals related to its business, including but not limited to proposals for advertising campaigns, logos, names, processes, products, promotions, services, slogans, and technologies. American Airlines therefore requests that you not send such proposals. Please also refrain from sending original creative artwork, blueprints, demonstratives, designs, layouts, photographs, or samples. American Airlines has adopted this policy to prevent claims that we have copied such unsolicited ideas without authorization, when, in fact, we developed the idea independent of or even long before receiving the unsolicited proposal. If you do send us unsolicited proposals, then do so with the understanding that American Airlines may use any concepts, ideas, inventions, know-how, or techniques that you disclose in those communications for any purpose, including the developing, manufacturing, and/or marketing of goods, products, or services. American Airlines may do so free of any obligation to compensate you for that use.

Comparison monitoring of on-line chats or telephone conversations with American Airlines

The Site may provide you the ability to have an on-line chat session with American Airlines or with information as to how you can contact American Airlines by telephone. You may use these functions only for business purposes related to the Site. For quality assurance purposes, American Airlines may monitor, record, and/or transcribe the contents of these communications. By contacting American Airlines, you agree that the communication may be monitored, recorded, and/or transcribed and you consent to the monitoring, recording, and/or transcribing. Such records may be kept indefinitely or disposed of at our discretion.

Your use of Forums

You agree to use any bulletin boards, chat rooms, conferences, or other communication or message facilities ("Forums") contained on the Site only to send and receive material and messages that are proper and related to the particular Forum. You further agree that you will use the Forums in conformity with all applicable laws and this Agreement. You agree that you will not Misuse a Forum.

American Airlines reserves the right to remove at will and without notice any Content on the Site, including anything you post in a Forum. You understand that any use by you of a Forum constitutes a public communication. You understand that American Airlines owns any and all information or material that you post on a Forum. You agree that you waive all of the rights you have to any information or material that you post on a Forum. American Airlines has the right to do whatever it wishes with that information or material, including but not limited to deleting or editing for any reason any posting by you. You further acknowledge that American Airlines does not endorse or sponsor any information or material posted by Forum users, and that American Airlines has no responsibility to approve, review, or screen such information or material.

Forum for actions, governing law, and procedural restrictions

You agree that this Agreement is made and entered into in Tarrant County, Texas. You agree that Texas law governs this Agreement's interpretation and/or any dispute arising from your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site, without regard to conflicts of law principles. Any lawsuit brought by you related to your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site must be brought in the state or federal courts of Tarrant County, Texas. You agree and understand that you will not bring against AMR Corporation, American Airlines, or any of its affiliated entities, agents, directors, employees, and/or officers any class action lawsuit related to your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site.

Other terms

This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement governing your access to, dealings with, and use of the Site. Of course, separate agreements may attach to any goods, products, or services you obtain, purchase, or use from the Site. In the case of a conflict between this Agreement and any agreement specific to any goods, products, or services that you obtain, purchase, or use from the Site, the terms of the specific agreement shall govern.

Any failure of American Airlines to assert any rights it may have under this Agreement does not constitute a waiver of our right to assert the same or any other right at any other time or against any other person or entity. If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision.

Re:Wow!

[Anonymous Coward]

ya.. I want to use this site...

YOU USE THE SITE AT YOUR OWN RISK. THE CONTENT IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY, ...we make no warranty, express, implied, or otherwise, that we will prevent unauthorized access to your private information. ...American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.

Hide the Real Stuff

[e8johan]

This is probably a way of hiding 'offensive' paragraphs. I'd say that most end-user agreements are too long. A solution to this would be a legal phrasing and a readable phrasing (i.e. a shorter, readable form with the main points).

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[The_Shadows]

Right, but then, of course, who's to say what the important parts are? The company likely wants certain things hidden. They will certainly tell the lawyers what is "important" and what is "not."

I mean, the company may consider it important to let you know that you're forbidden to sell their content. However, they may consider it an unimportant footnote that by entering you grant them power of attorney.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's up to us to get organized and publish the main points of the various EULAs/disclaimers out there. That'd be a useful website.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Patik]

A solution to this would be a legal phrasing and a readable phrasing (i.e. a shorter, readable form with the main points).

Then you'll run into all sorts of legal problems. Who decides what is necessary to tell the user, and what he needs to know? A user may read the paraphrased EULA, then perform an action with the software not specifically outlined in that paraphrased form, while the action is clearly described as illegal in the full legalese EULA version.

Even worse, malicious companies can abuse paraphrasing to hide important information. For example, the shortened EULA for Kazaa (etc) can tell the user what can be done with the software (share and download "files"), but conveniently leave out the legal issues ("files" means only non-copyrighted material). You'll either end up with a bunch of innocent people in trouble with RIAA, or a mess of lawsuits between Kazaa and RIAA because they trick users into clicking "I agree" to an over-simplified statement without explaining the laws in full to the user.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[EraseEraseMe]

Hiding the meat and potatoes of a legal argument behind a layer of fluff and doublespeak is incredibly common. In a "CYA" society, you've got to expect that they're going to say everything and anything they can to protect themselves from any sort of liability. What they don't realize however, is that these agreements probably wouldn't stand up under any light.

For example, one clause "By using the Site, you represent and warrant that you are 18 years of age or older and possess the legal right and ability to enter into this Agreement and to use the Site in accordance with all of the terms and conditions of this Agreement" could cause more than a number of problems. Say someone under the age of 18 purchases a ticket from them online...now what? are they legally obligated to actually provide a service to this person, even though said customer is technically not allowed to use the site?

The rest of the agreement seems to be pretty standard web-related agreements. Agreeing not to upload/download files (1) to a national or resident of or into any country the U.S. has embargoed, including without limitation, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Syria, or Yugoslavia; (2) to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's Specially Designated Nationals list, or (3) to anyone on the U.S. Commerce Department's Table of Denial Orders.

And then at the end of it all, there's the biggest CYA: You may not: S. Engage in any other conduct that is, or that American Airlines deems to be, in conflict with this Agreement.

Moreover, then there's the liability agreement for the agreement at the end:

American Airlines may alter, change or improve the Content at any time and without notice.

Then their privacy policy regarding information they take from you. Although this is a bit of a mind-puzzler:

American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.

First company I've seen doing that...Wonder why.

And then, the final straw: You agree that Texas law governs this Agreement's interpretation and/or any dispute arising from your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site, without regard to conflicts of law principles.

Ouch.

The last paragraph, however, is the greatest laugh-inducer:

If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision.

So, they could essentially put "You must name your first child after American Airlines", have it be struck down as idiotic, but the rest of the agreement still stands...nice :)

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Eivind]

Certainly. But in such an "agreement" all the phrasing is 100% in their favour. The entire thing only says they have all rigths, you have none whatsoever.

Let's look at a few examples:

Engage in any other conduct that is, or that American Airlines deems to be, in conflict with this Agreement.

Now this one is the killer. Notice the OR in there. This one simply says that any conduct which they dislike is in violation of the agreement, whether such conduct is prohibited by the agreement itself or not. In effect this single statement renders the rest of the text meaningless.

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines.

Nonsense ! By putting up a website they implicitly allow linking to it. If they don't want people to link to it, they can take it down. "Provide reference" is even more ridiculous. Does this mean it's forbidden for me to tell anyone where to find the site ? If not, what does it mean ?

American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose. Again nonsense. They assert that simply by accessing their website, I have to consent to their "agreement". What stops me from sending them "communications" with a similar assertment in it ?

You understand that American Airlines owns any and all information or material that you post on a Forum. You agree that you waive all of the rights you have to any information or material that you post on a Forum. American Airlines has the right to do whatever it wishes with that information or material, including but not limited to deleting or editing for any reason any posting by you.

So they own everything, yet in the next paragraph they say that whatever you post to the site is fully your responsibility and they have no obligations whatsoever. Now, which will it be ? Is it *their* material or *my* material ?

You agree to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless American Airlines and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, demands, proceedings, suits and actions, including any related liabilities, obligations, losses, damages, deficiencies, penalties, taxes, levies, fines, judgments, settlements, expenses (including legal and accountants' fees and disbursements) and costs (collectively, "Claims"), based on, arising out of or resulting from your use of the Site,

This says that (among other things) if you buy a ticket on the site, and they make a profit, leading to the need to pay taxes, you need to pay those taxes for them. Really. Read it again !

It goes on, but I think further commenting is needless, the "agreement" is clearly bunk, and I'd like to believe it'd never be upheld in any court in the world. Possible exception for the USA, I recommend people unlucky enough to live there to seek asylum elsewhere.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[tulare]

Possible exception for the USA, I recommend people unlucky enough to live there to seek asylum elsewhere.

True nough. But I have to point out the fact that neither Norway nor any other country I can think of will grant asylum status to an applicant based upon the applicant's national leadership being run by a knuckle-dragging inbred moron who is puppetted by a bunch of two-bit millinealist madmen bent upon unleashing some kind of ungodly crusade upon all who don't follow their personal dogma. Unless, of course, the country in question is cited for human rights violations all over the place by organizations such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the UN. Unless, of course, the country in question has incarcerated or otherwise placed under special legal authority one out of evrery four men in a given minority group.

Surely, I could continue, but the fact is, what passes for acceptable in the US would be grounds for asylum coming from any other country in the world. Anyone see the problem with this picture?

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Jon Peterson]

I'm not so sure in this case. I read the whole thing. There's nothing particularly bad in there. Bear in mind this is not the disclaimer for the general website, but for the AAdvantage club thingy. There's a 'no linking' clause, but in the circum stances that seems fine - it's annoying to have links into the middle of what is basically a web based application.

The rest is just tediously explicit - "Don't say libelous things on forums" "Don't use our logo" "We are not liable for damages resulting from typos on this site" etc. etc. ad nauseam.

It's sad that this stuff has to take the place of common sense, but in the end it's a two way street. If you didn't have idiots claiming they own the 'rights' to their bulleting board postings, you wouldn't have these discaimers pointing out in legalese that you forfeit those 'rights'.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Jon Peterson]

You said:

You agree to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless American Airlines and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, demands, proceedings, suits and actions, including any related liabilities, obligations, losses, damages, deficiencies, penalties, taxes, levies, fines, judgments, settlements, expenses (including legal and accountants' fees and disbursements) and costs (collectively, "Claims"), based on, arising out of or resulting from your use of the Site,


This says that (among other things) if you buy a ticket on the site, and they make a profit, leading to the need to pay taxes, you need to pay those taxes for them. Really. Read it again !

I say

AARRGGH!! No it freaking doesn't. This is one of the most standard clauses in any contract anywhere, and it says that if _I_ incur penalties, taxes, etc as a result of using AA's service, then AA are not responsible.

I'm not a lawyer, but my job is to provide technical advice on legal contracts that are software and technology related, so I get used to this kind of language. Please try to be accurate...

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[jesterzog]

What they don't realize however, is that these agreements probably wouldn't stand up under any light.

I find it hard to believe that this is why disclaimers are written in this way. They are lawyers who write these things, after all. Of course they know what is and isn't enforcable.

Personally I think it's far more likely that they hope that other people won't realise that they wouldn't stand up under any light. As long as 99% of people don't realise what parts of disclaimers (and EULA's) are enforcable, 99% of people will arrange their use of a product or service in exactly the way the vendor wants them to.

Even if people suspect that it's over the top, it's not worth most people's time, money or effort to find out in an extended legal battle.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[ptbrown]

And then at the end of it all, there's the biggest CYA: You may not: S. Engage in any other conduct that is, or that American Airlines deems to be, in conflict with this Agreement.

I'm imagining an onUnload handler that checks if the site you're going to is some other airline and pops up a warning saying you're in violation of the EULA.

American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.

They probably outsource their email and crm services. This is the problem with panaceas like P3P: the limitations are overly-broad so you either have to be completely paranoid and not be able to do anything online, or relax the standards and allow for the possibility of someone abusing your trust. The only way to prevent people from using your personal data without your permission is to make it outright illegal. Too bad the people who want to do such things have a lot of friends in congress.

You agree that Texas law governs this Agreement's interpretation and/or any dispute arising from your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site, without regard to conflicts of law principles.

There's UCITA at work. Wasn't there a big fuss about a hundred and fifty years ago about one state's laws being enforced in another? That and something about those who forget the lessons of history...

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.

I just finished doing end of school exams and they made us all sign agreements with a clause to a similar effect.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Repton]

If I cut out some of the synonyms from the clause (which seems like it should be OK, as I'm only making it say less, not more), I get:

You agree to [...] indemnify [...] American Airlines [...] from and against any and all [...] taxes [...] resulting from your use of the Site,

It still seems to me that the earlier poster's interpretation is consistent with the clause: If I use the site (to buy a ticket), and taxes arise from this use of the site (as they would) then I agree to indemnify (compensate) American Airlines for those taxes.

If that's not what it means, then it is not very clear ...

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[cicadia]

I read the whole thing. There's nothing particularly bad in there.

Are you sure? You'd better read it again.

It's still okay? Well, you'd better read it again tomorrow, just to be sure.

From the agreement:

American Airlines reserves the right to change this Agreement and to make changes to any of the products or programs described in the Site at any time without notice or liability. Any such revisions are prospectively binding on you and therefore you should periodically visit this page when you use the Site to review the then current Agreement that binds you.

After reading this far, I came to the conclusion that there's no point reading any further, since they can change the agreement at any time, and you agree to let them.

They could conceivably have changed the entire text of the agreement between the time you get the original text and the time you post your acceptance. (This is especially likely given the amount of time it would take to read and understand the entire agreement).

I don't know about your experience with these things, but this looks like about the most offensive language I've ever seen in a set of terms and conditions like this.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[mpe]

The last paragraph, however, is the greatest laugh-inducer:
If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision.

It's a common CYA clause, without it any void clause can void an entire contract.
In many cases no-one actually writes these things from scratch, they simply glue pre-existing pieces of boiler plate together, with alterations to make them fit.
There's probably a fair bit of mixing in clauses they know full well are void, on the basis that no-one is going to call their bluff on them.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[e_n_d_o]

If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision.

IANAL, but this is pretty much your standard severability clause. Any contract worth a damn will have one.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[linuxbaby]

So, they could essentially put "You must name your first child after American Airlines".

Ooof! Don't I know it! Yeah I missed that part of the IUMA EULA once.

But now my son Iuma is 2 years old and doesn't seem to mind it so much.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

>I'm imagining an onUnload handler that checks if
>the site you're going to is some other airline and
>pops up a warning saying you're in violation of the
>EULA.

I certainly hope this would be a HUGE GAPING HOLE in your browser.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[blah-Hipo]

that's not malicious--that is AWESOME. the point of kazaa is to download movies, software, and mp3s. the point is NOT legal file sharing. kazaa writes the software for dowloading illegal material (thank you Kazaa). so anything confusing about the applications of the EULA due to what the user missed in paraphrase is a blessing. anything to compound the situation.

oh my god please don't mod me down because i admitted to file sharing.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Erik Hollensbe]

The job of a lawyer isn't that it's enforcable, but that it's enforcable enough to keep it out of court.

I mean really, who calls up their lawyer everytime they're given a EULA? And second, who calls them when they've been told the EULA has been violated?

I'm sure there are some, but they are in the distinct minority simply because:

1) Those who do not have the money to fight giant corporations don't, and
2) Those who do are so protective of their money it's better to cut your losses and run.

So, unless you're getting pro bono help by someone worth their weight in bar admissions, it's just not happening.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[CaptDeuce]

This is probably a way of hiding 'offensive' paragraphs.

Perhaps you are referring to parts like this:

Your account information is owned by and proprietary to American Airlines.

Gee, I won't even own my own mailing address if I sign up. I wonder how USPS feels about this.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Sentry21]

For example, one clause "By using the Site, you represent and warrant that you are 18 years of age or older and possess the legal right and ability to enter into this Agreement and to use the Site in accordance with all of the terms and conditions of this Agreement" could cause more than a number of problems. Say someone under the age of 18 purchases a ticket from them online...now what? are they legally obligated to actually provide a service to this person, even though said customer is technically not allowed to use the site?

What I remember from law class is that if someone is under 18, they (AA) are bound by the terms of the agreement, but the minor is not. This is a standard way of protecting oneself, and isn't nearly uncommon. That being said, I'd expect that this would only come into play in such a situation, and would prevent AA from being held to an unfair (to them) deal. It's basically a way to get out of a contract that the other side isn't necessarily being held to, or perhaps even to enforce the contract despite the minor's age.

--Dan

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Surak]

And then at the end of it all, there's the biggest CYA: You may not: S. Engage in any other conduct that is, or that American Airlines deems to be, in conflict with this Agreement.

(IANAL)

They're basically saying "You can't do anything we don't like." Whether the clause is enforceable or not depends on what you did. It's actually pretty useless as a clause, IMHO, because the only thing that clause can protect is their private property and IP rights.

American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.

Really? So they can publish my credit card number on their Web site or in their TV commercials?

Real answer: Nope. The clause is not enforceable in many cases because they have a duty of care to protect any confidential information you give them regardless of what this clause says.

Crap like this falls along the same lines as the signs on public lockers that say "Store stuff here at your own risk." Regardless of the sign, if the locker you use becomes broken into because, for instance, the locker was in a state of disrepair, the owner of the locker as not met his duty of care and is therefore guilty of negligence and is liable to you for damages.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[vadim_t]

What can you download with Kazaa has absolutely no place in its EULA. EULAs are supposed to be used to impose some conditions on the user (reverse engineering) that somehow affect the creators of the tool. What files you download with it shouldn't matter. Downloading copyrighted material you don't have rights to is already illegal, EULA or no EULA.

It's like having an EULA for a car that says you agree not to use it for kidnapping. Since that's already illegal it makes no sense to put it there.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[valdis]

You trimmed too much. Try this:

You agree to [...] indemnify [...] American Airlines [...] from and against any and all *CLAIMS*, ... , *suits*,... including [...] taxes [...] resulting from your use of the Site,

Which means "You agree to not sue or file claims against AA for anything, including taxes, resulting from use of the site".

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

The bit about the Texas law thing is standard in contract law. If a contract ends up in court, the court in which it is being tried must determine which state's laws apply.

This used to be merely the state in which the contract was signed; for various historical reasons, this no longer applies. Now the courts must determine which state was more "involved" (sorry can't remember what the real term is here, it's 4:45 and I'm tired) in the contract.

As an example, say a plane built in Seattle, owned by an airline in Alaska, and serviced in California crashes on the way back to Seattle from Mexico (true case). Many people get sued in federal court (partially for violating terms of ticket agreement, potential defect in plane, possibility that mechanical service wasn't done in timely manner). The court in this case has to determine which state's laws apply--in this case it was WA. Even though the service guys were in CA, WA law still applies. Funny part is that it is a FEDERAL court, and FEDERAL procedural rules apply. Being able to fight such a case w/ home field advantage is useful--not to mention makes the other side have to deal with travel issuses.

Back to American Airlines clicky-through thing...

Many contracts, in order to avoid court determination of applicable state's laws have a clause that states under which state's laws any dispute must be settled. Quite common actually.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[bob]

One of my favorite examples of this is Starpower's Internet access agreement, in section "VII. No Warranties". Quoting,

4. You may not rely on oral or written information or advice given by STARPOWER's officers, directors, employees, agents, authorized representatives, subcontractors or affiliates and/or their officers, directors, employees, agents, authorized representatives, or subcontractors or affiliates to create a warranty or increase the scope of warranty already established in these terms and conditions. Your rights and STARPOWER's responsibilities are limited to the warranties that are expressed in these written terms and conditions that have been established by STARPOWER to govern the use of the Access Service.

IOW, you agree that our sales droids, our sales droids managers -- anyone all the way up to the head of the company, really -- can feed you any line of bullshit they care to in order to get you to sign up with us, and absolutely none of it commits us to anything.

"Sure you can run servers off your cable modem."

"Of course you can have static IPs. How many would you like?"

"With our latest improvements, we're able to offer you 10Mbps unrestricted bandwidth with no upstream bottlenecks."

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[douglas jeffries]

EULAs are supposed to be used to impose some conditions on the user (reverse engineering) that somehow affect the creators of the tool.

in this case, it does because without such a clause the authors might be help responsible for what the users are doing (by providing a crime-enabling product). the clause is there to prevent that from happening by transferring whatever legal liability they might have to the users.

this is why your car analogy isn't so good. no one's going to say the car company is responsible for the kidnapping, because most people understand the automotive industry well enough to distinguish between a product and its usage. most people (and especially the law) do not understand the software industry that well.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[fintler]

did you even read the article? c'mon people

(laugh, it's a joke)

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Well just because your a minor doesn't mean you don't have the power to contract. Certain items under common law are expressly prohibited for contracts against minors, but a 16 year old can go out and sign a contract.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[GigsVT]

In legal terms, the contract is revokable at the option of the minor. Most contracts with minors are this way except for a few exceptions, contracts for artistic work of the minor, sports, certain contracts for health care services to the minor. Emancipated or married minors can enter binding contracts as if they were adults normally also.

The thing is, since they said "You warrant that you are 18" in the contract, a minor cannot agree to it without making a material misrepresentation, so the contract is not binding to AA either. Either side can declare the contract null and void at any time, but neither is forced to.

That's my understanding of it.

As always, IANAL. Not legal advice.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Marc2k]

I don't necessarily agree. I'll accept that a document comprised of the main points of the EULA would be deleterious to both the user and manufacturer, as key points that aren't deemed major slip through the cracks. However, you'll be hard pressed to find a legal term that can't be translated into layman speak. An exact translation would be too verbose, but if there were a line-for-line translation into plain English, perhaps that would prove to suit the needs of all parties involved.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[jmo_jon]

For use of certain services, we may provide you with a pass code. This pass code is proprietary to and the property of American Airlines. However, you must take precautions to insure the security of your pass code. American Airlines assumes no responsibility for and will not be liable in the event that another person learns your pass code or uses your pass code to cause damage to you.

This feels like a typcial thing they'd want to hide. As I understand it:
1. AA owns the passcode
2. You are responsable for it's security
3. If someone hacks the AA db and uses the stolen passcode from there to book flights in your name AA takes no responsability.

So basicly what one would want to do is make sure that the security guys are good there or it's your ass that gets burned?

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[gaudior]

Leave, then. Don't let the door hit you on the ass.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

No, claims, suits and taxes are on the same sematical level. There is no link between the items in that list.

So it does not mean don't sue us for taxes.

It means don't sue and pay the taxes.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[incongruent]

You agree to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless American Airlines and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, demands, proceedings, suits and actions, including any related liabilities, obligations, losses, damages, deficiencies, penalties, taxes, levies, fines, judgments, settlements, expenses (including legal and accountants' fees and disbursements) and costs collectively, "Claims"), based on, arising out of or resulting from your use of the Site,

It seems to me that this can also say that by consenting to the agreement, if you use the "site" to obtain a plane ticket, you cannot hold the airline liable for any event arising out of that purchase. Things like death or injury incurred because of the neglegence of the airline could be included on that list.

"So they own everything, yet in the next paragraph they say that whatever you post to the site is fully your responsibility and they have no obligations whatsoever. Now, which will it be ? Is it *their* material or *my* material ?"

Basicly, the theme appears to be (as with almost any corporation), if it's profitable for them, they want the benefits, but not the responsibility. It's sickening that humanity is put behind profit in such ways.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[orangesquid]

But what country *wants* me? "Sick of the USA, no real reason to go anywhere else. Reluctant to leave it all behind. Call xxx-xxxx if interested."

It's very expensive to leave, and I would be leaving behind all my friends...

Even though many areas in the US are not community-oriented, I have created my own community, and I do not wish to kick myself out!

Let's treat the disease, not treat the symptoms.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[jdavidb]

Maybe, but the real solution would be to realize that advertisements and sales activity have no business being covered by an EULA.

But maybe that's just one of my crazy ideas...

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, this is one of those things that will require the government to step in and set a standard. In the same way that the FDA has mandated ingredient lables - some gov't entity needs to step in and set a standard.

Before the Food Labelling Act it was a nightmare for people that had allergies - just a simple substance like tomatoes can be found even in small quantities of some very "un-tomato-like" products.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Christianfreak]

There's UCITA at work. Wasn't there a big fuss about a hundred and fifty years ago about one state's laws being enforced in another? That and something about those who forget the lessons of history...

I live in Texas and as far as I know we have not passed UCITA. Texas legislature only meets 6 months out of every 24 to keep us from passing too many laws (it doesn't always work but it helps). The reason that American Airlines wants to be governed by the laws of Texas is because the are headquartered in Dallas. Probably in there so when someone sues them they can point to the clause and say "See you have to come here to fight us" and they don't have to send an army of lawyers to North Dakota or something like that.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[xyzzy-ladder]

I wonder if this is enforceable? Can they actually change significant (or not so significant) parts of the agreement, not notify anyone, and enforce it?

I wonder is there a way that customers can make up contracts and enforce them against corporations? Something like, "by sending email to this address, you agree to A, B, C".

For some reasons, I expect that the law is pretty much in the corporations favor.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not a fair analogy. It would be more appropriate to compare Kazaa the company to a manufacturer of handguns, or burglar's tools. Yes, it is possible to use Kazaa in legal ways, but I suspect the majority of traffic on it is of music, video, and software which belongs to someone else.

This being said, I don't really care that copying mp3s is technically illegal. The recording industry screws over artists and consumers much more than a file-sharing program user does. If there were an inexpensive 'heavenly jukebox' I could subscribe to, I would feel differently, I am not going to shed tears for companies which have illegally acted to keep CD prices artificially high, and at the same time ripped off artists who sell millions of CD's.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the Texas state legislature meets for 60 days every two years. However, the Governor can call a special session if needed to deal with a particular issue(the legislature is under no obligation to actually deal with the issue but can not consider any other during that session).

American Airlines' headquarter is in Fort Worth, TX.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Fastball]

What they don't realize however, is that these agreements probably wouldn't stand up under any light.

I agree but wonder, if this is typically the case, why do companies, businesses, and individuals persist on using such long, useless verbage?

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[peg0cjs]

This is why his analogy is EXACTLY correct. What, precisely, is a crime-enabling product? It's pretty easy to break a law with virtually anything. The NRA and gun companies have repeatedly (and successfully) argued for more personal responsibility about how products are used (a la "guns don't kill people..."). Why should IP laws be any different?

Someone can rob a bank and use a getaway car, or they can use Kazaa to download illegal files. Does that make Ford more/less liable than Kazaa? Neither should be liable because it was the *user* who broke the law. The activity was already forbidden by law, the tools used are irrelevant because, guess what, each has a completely legitimate and legal use!

If some horny toad out there downloads child porn off usenet using Outlook Express, should MSFT be held accountable? (hmmm...actually that may be interesting!)

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Out4Blood]

"What, precisely, is a crime-enabling product?"

If I were in charge of defining it (which I am not, BTW) I'd say it was something that was integral to committing or proliferating the crime (e.g., it couldn't have been done without it.)

On second thought, using that logic, I'd conclude that the internet itself is the "crime-enabling product" in this case.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously haven't read the Hilton HHonors agreement recently. I won't even *stay* at a Hilton anymore after reading that they consider any interraction you have with them to be fully publishable and not your property for them to use anywhere in the *universe*!?!?!

https://www.hiltonhhonors.com/docs/terms.asp

"By participating in the HHonors Program, you voluntarily, expressly and knowingly agree to each and all of the following: (a) such information belongs to Hilton and is not personal or private proprietary information; (b) such information, wherever collected, may be processed, used, reproduced, modified, adapted, translated, used to create derivative works, shared, published and distributed by Hilton in its discretion in any media and manner irrevocably in perpetuity in any location throughout the universe without royalty or payment of any kind, without , however, any obligation by Hilton to do so;....."

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[peg0cjs]

...integral to committing or proliferating the crime...

Box cutters also fit that profile, but I don't hear too many calls to make the use of box cutters illegal.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Twirlip of the Mists]

What, precisely, is a crime-enabling product?

Seems to me that it would be-- if it had a legal definition, which I'm not sure that it does-- any item that has no reasonable legitimate purpose other than the furtherance of a crime. Lock-picking equipment is illegal is many, or most, jurisdictions because it has no purpose other than the opening of locks without a key. Cars are legal because they have tons of purposes other than to serve as a getaway device during a kidnapping.

Kazaa probably has no legitimate legal use. But I don't use it-- because I'm a Mac guy, not because of any delusion of moral superiority-- so I can't say that for sure.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Latent IT]

I agree but wonder, if this is typically the case, why do companies, businesses, and individuals persist on using such long, useless verbage?

All my legal experience is from John Grisham books, and all my statistics are completely fabricated. Consider that a warning!

Very likely, it's because most people don't get themselves a lawyer. As a company, you have a very good chance of snowballing someone who has a serious legitamate grievance by showing them a contract they agreed to absolving you of all blame, and then offering them a lowball settlement, and getting them to sign the rest of their rights away.

Even if the thing they signed wasn't legally binding. Or even applicable. Or even if they didn't agree to it.

It sucks, but... well... no, it just sucks.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

For example, the shortened EULA for Kazaa (etc) can tell the user what can be done with the software (share and download "files"), but conveniently leave out the legal issues ("files" means only non-copyrighted material).

That's already covered by other laws, and Kazaa need not tell you that. In fact, the only reason that they put that in the EULA is to try and transfer the liability from them to you if you do it.

by reading this /. comment, you agree that you will not use your computer to gain illegal entry into other computers.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Blue Stone]

Actually, I think the original poster got it right, but the important thing, at least here in England, would be that if any reasonable person couldn't understand it [and I'll say that several reasonable people seem to be having difficulty understanding it's meaning] then (IANAL) the meaning upheld shall be that which is most favourable to the consumer.

Of course the whole thing is based on the entirely unresonable belief that any reasonable or average consumer would a) read it all and b) read it all and understand it, before clicking "I accept."

IMHO, these EULAs are lawyer power-trip wet-dreams; they're what people would give themselves if they could give themselves indemnity from any risk whatsoever, and make everyone else carry the buck, responsibility etc.

It's all "kids saying what they would do if they were God/King/Ruler of The World.

In the UK the Office of Fair Trading would strike out about half this eula, if you ask me. They have on their website a pdf of stuff they made companies change in their on-line contracts, some of it is hilarious.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Blue Stone]

Tracked down the urls of the site:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/Business/Legal+Powers/unfair +what+is.htm [what the OFT of the UK considers unfair]

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/extyc76c3zvz6n5 pvdac3u3obr637fs3mbynvd2qhkyzgrgenny6xridnc2mwasb3 2trgh4si4gdg2bt2gp5viz4jvh/oft311-annexea.pdf [a 192kb pdf of examples of unfair terms that the OFT corrected or removed from contracts... worth a read, it includes a couple from Microsoft, most from Double-Glazing companies, and a couple from Scan.co.uk, a company who I've been made out of pocket by, because of their contract, and their lies that they'd re-imburse me despite them (they didn't).... anyway some of the examples are very funny.]

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[peg0cjs]

Kazaa has a perfectly legitimate use which is the peer-to-peer sharing of non-IP or copyrighted works. Despite what the RIAA wants people to believe, there are all kinds of files being spread around the net that have absolutely no IP restrictions on them.

This includes, but is in no way limited to, public domain information, jokes, freeware, shareware, independent artist music releases, etc, etc. Not everything being downloaded on Kazaa/Morpheus/Napster/GNUtella/etc is the latest Backstreet Boys single.

Even lock-picking equipment has a perfectly legal use: picking locks you own. There's an entire locksmithing industry out there that is totally dependent on the ability to defeat the security of the locks put in place by their clients who have lost their keys.

You would be pretty hard-pressed to find a single invention that has NO legitimate use whatsoever, which is why it's foolish to try and restrict their use through EULA's or other contracts. The law already forbids these illegal activities. If those laws can't be enforced then they need to be changed. Simply going after the tools is the lazy approach.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Bubba-Zaur]

Umm...I thought 99% of people don't read the license/disclamer/ect. to begin with...

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

60 days every 2 years is way more than the federal goverment needs, much less any state. My own state, MI, is only one of a handful that has a full-time legislature.

[poor memory hack alert=on]What did Thomas Jefferson say, that any nation with 10,000 laws made a mockery of the rule of law? Yet in 2002, we have well over 60,000 laws to obey.

And remember! It's GOD DAMNED VITAL WE HAVE MORE! Both parties have many thousands to go! Like the 60th annual Soviet Bad Draught Year That's Why We've No Food, good times are eternally only a few tens of thousands more laws away.

And each one could get you killed if you resisted fiercely enough.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Even lock-picking equipment has a perfectly legal use: picking locks you own.

In my state, at least, locksmiths have to be licensed. You can't buy certain tools unless you have a license. You can't buy lock picking tools at all.

The law already forbids these illegal activities. If those laws can't be enforced then they need to be changed.

Restricting the mechanism of committing a crime is one part of enforcing the law that defines that crime. If Kazaa, and similar items, are found to be of the same legal standing as lock picking tools, they should be banned. That's up to the legislature to decide, and the judiciary to review.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Eivind]

True nough. But I have to point out the fact that neither Norway nor any other country I can think of will grant asylum status to an applicant based upon the applicant's national leadership being run by a knuckle-dragging inbred moron who is puppetted by a bunch of two-bit millinealist madmen

Well, maybe not. But on the other hand it's not hard for a reasonably educated person to get a work-permit in most european countries. Atleast in Norway it's a lot easier than with your "green-card" circus. (I call it a circus 'cos it includes ridiculous ideas like a freaking *lottery*)

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[peg0cjs]

This thread has drifted way off-topic, so let's try to swing things back a bit. Yes, locksmiths need to be licensed in many jurisdictions, just like drivers need to be licensed before they hop on the highways. The point is that it shouldn't be in the EULA/license/permit to restrict these activities since the law already does.

We live in a pretty litigious society, and we have plenty of laws (some good, some less good). We don't need duplicate laws to outlaw that which is already outlawed. This is one reason why laws like the DMCA are so loved around here: because they try to restrict tools that _CAN_ be used to engage in activities that are already illegal, but which have all kinds of legitimate uses. We don't need EULAs restricting what is already restricted.

When you get a driver's license, you don't need to accept a contract saying you won't kidnap anyone with your car, do you?

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Twirlip of the Mists]

In some ways you're right, but you also said a couple of things that are wrong. The first one was, "We don't need duplicate laws to outlaw that which is already outlawed." Nobody here is talking about duplicate laws. We're talking about license agreements. A license agreement isn't a law; it's a contract between two parties granting one party permission to use software in return for some payment or other concession. It's perfectly reasonable for contracts to contain clauses that limit liability. (Wow. Alliteration boy is in the house.) There's nothing wrong with that. Company A says, "We tacitly acknowledge that it's possible for you to use our product to commit a crime. We therefore require you, as a condition of using our product, not to commit any crimes with it. If you do, you're in violation of your license, and you're using the software without authorization. We are therefore not responsible for what you do with it during that unauthorized use."

Of course, some software, as we've already discussed, basically has no legitimate legal use. (I'm going to back off the Kazaa thing, because in some ways it's fundamentally no different from FTP, and FTP has legitimate uses out the wazoo. But I think it's fair to say that there's some software out there somewhere that has no legitimate use at all, and that only exists in order to cause mayhem.) In that case, the vendor's saying that illegal use of the software is prohibited is a farce. It's kind of like those web and FTP sites-- we've all seen 'em-- that say the MP3s aboard are for evaluation purposes only and must be deleted after 24 hours. Like that somehow gets around the fact that you're illegally distributing copyrighted materials. All the disclaimers in the world won't help you there.

The other thing you said that I disagree with is this: "This is one reason why laws like the DMCA are so loved around here: because they try to restrict tools that _CAN_ be used to engage in activities that are already illegal, but which have all kinds of legitimate uses." I don't know what DMCA you're talking about, but that's not a valid interpretation of the one I've read. The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent copy protection, or to distribute tools that exist solely for the purpose of circumventing copy protection. It can't be used to restrict tools that can be used to circumvent copy protection; the wording of the law is very specific on that point.

Then there's your last point, "When you get a driver's license, you don't need to accept a contract saying you won't kidnap anyone with your car, do you?" As a matter of fact, you do. When I got my driver's license, umpteen years ago in another state, I signed a piece of paper saying that I understood that my license authorized me to operate any appropriate vehicle in accordance with the laws governing such use. It wasn't a contract, but it was an explicit statement of the implied contract I was entering into with the state. If I speed, the state has the right to pull me over and make me beg for mercy. It's not a contract in the sense of a license agreement, but it's a legally binding arrangement nonetheless.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[peg0cjs]

Nobody here is talking about duplicate laws. We're talking about license agreements.

Fair enough. This whole thread is a result of the AA EULA that basically said: You are in violation of this agreement if you do something illegal with our site. Kinda redundent, but I won't harp.

As for the software that has absolutely no legitimate use, I am waiting for an example. Hacker tools, rippers, DeCSS, etc, all have perfectly legal applications that are permitted in certain scenarios. Again, I won't harp.

I don't know what DMCA you're talking about, but that's not a valid interpretation of the one I've read.

The DMCA goes even further than what you've indicated in your post. It makes the analysis of copy protection software illegal. It prevents people from exercising fair-use rights. DeCSS, which was designed for a legitimate purpose (viewing DVDs on Linux), was deemed illegal. 2600 was sued under the DMCA and was given a cease and desist order for distributing it. How is the DMCA not attacking tools with legitimate purposes here?

When I got my driver's license [...] I signed a piece of paper saying that I understood that my license authorized me to operate any appropriate vehicle in accordance with the laws governing such use

As you said, that was not a contract. If you sped, you weren't prosecuted under the agreement which stated you would follow the laws, you were prosecuted under the law itself. Having a contract which states "Thou shalt do nothing that violates the law" is pointless, because the statutory law is "higher" than contract law.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff

[Twirlip of the Mists]

It makes the analysis of copy protection software illegal.

Wrong. The reverse engineering of copy protection devices for the purposes of circumventing copy protection is illegal. The distribution of a device that circumvents a copy protection mechanism is illegal. Distributing instructions describing how to circumvent a copy protection system is illegal. Some people-- including, evidently, yourself-- have jumped to the conclusion that analysis of copy protection mechanisms is now illegal. That's just bull. If you want to analyize a copy protection mechanism, go right ahead. Just don't cross the lines described in the DMCA, and you're completely fine.

It prevents people from exercising fair-use rights.

That's for the court to decide. I believe you're wrong again. The DMCA makes it illegal to distribute devices that circumvent copy protection. If a copy prevention mechanism prevents people from making fair use of a work-- fair use, of course, not being a right, but a privilege granted by Title 17 as an exception to copyright, which is a right-- then that copy prevention mechanism may be in violation of the law. The law protecting copy prevention mechanisms in principle is not flawed on those grounds.

DeCSS, which was designed for a legitimate purpose (viewing DVDs on Linux), was deemed illegal.

DeCSS was designed for the sole purpose of decrypting DVDs without authorization. It doesn't matter why you're decrypting DVDs without authorization; it only matters that you are doing so, and that doing so is illegal. DeCSS has no legitimate legal use. If DeCSS were erased from existence tomorrow, no one at all would be harmed by its absence. Therefore it serves no legitmate purpose. If you want to watch DVDs, use one of the myriad licensed playback devices that are widely available. Don't illegally circumvent the encryption that the manufacturers put on the discs.

How is the DMCA not attacking tools with legitimate purposes here?

I think I've demonstrated that quite clearly.

Having a contract which states "Thou shalt do nothing that violates the law" is pointless, because the statutory law is "higher" than contract law.

Of course it's not pointless. Isn't that clear to you by now? It's a limitation of liability on the part of the vendor, and it's a perfectly reasonable and legitimate thing. It's not pointless, and it's not redundant.

probably makes it the most useless agreement

[SystematicPsycho]

Seriously, other than lawyers, ppl studying law and judges, who the hell reads these agrements anyway? Does clicking 'I agree' classify as an electronic signature? I mean you could accidentally hit 'I agree'. It isn't like you can accidentally sign a contract from the bank.

Maybe slashdot should open up a 'silly EULA' competition along with the 'silly patents'.

Re:probably makes it the most useless agreement

[Sn4xx0r]

I mean you could accidentally hit 'I agree'.

Shut up. If, the next time we need to go past an EULA, we need to type some kind of word shown as an image that can only be read using a mirror, a prism, and polaroid glasses, we all know you're to blame!

Re:probably makes it the most useless agreement

[SystematicPsycho]

well.. "It was an accident" has a chance of holding up in court, "I signed it by accident" won't.

Re:probably makes it the most useless agreement

[Qrlx]

I think it's IBM that when you are downloading a new BIOS for your ThinkPad or whatever, you actually have to type "agree" for the installer to make the boot floppy with the new BIOS image on it.

What I'm not understanding is why don't we DOS their lawyers, by asking a LOT of technical questions about this "agreement." Like call the 800 number and tell them you have a question about para. 14, line 8 in the online agreement, and you'd like some clarification. Then send certified mail asking the same thing.

It wouldn't acomplish much, but it would make some poor schmuck's day at the office more miserable. Schadenfeude or whatever you call it. It would also be cool to know if there could be such thing of a write-in slashdot effect.

By the way, did you know that when you call AA to book a flight, you could be talking to a prison inmate? I feel warm and fuzzy just thinking about telling convicted felons the exact dates I won't be in my home.

Re:probably makes it the most useless agreement

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, in fact, clicking "I agree" constitutes the same level of agreement as signing a document. This was passed into law several years ago.

Of course, there is still a burden of proof that the claimant would have, to prove that you clicked the button. If the site is designed to only permit people past that point if they clicked on "I agree", then that may suffice. (It's possible that your 15 year old child clicked "I agree", and then called you over to the computer.

I don't think many of these issues have case law behind them yet.

Re:probably makes it the most useless agreement

[LittleGuy]

I mean you could accidentally hit 'I agree'.

That's ridiculous. I mean, it takes a concerted effort to click "accept", and...

Oh wait, pop-up ads on the onther browser windows,...

Uh oh. Damn.

Forget what I said. I just signed my soul away to American Airlines.

Re:probably makes it the most useless agreement

[CowboyMeal]

If you aren't bound to a mouse and are just hitting enter through the install, it is quite easy to agree to the accidental EULA.

Of course, most of them have the keyboard focus set to "disagree" by default, but i have used some where "agree" is default.

Re:probably makes it the most useless agreement

[vjl]

Heh. I simply clicked "I do not agree" using Galeon, with javascript and popups turned off. Guess what? I'm directed to their home page! So I guess I can still use their site, even if I don't agree with their EULA. Spiffy.

/vjl/

Heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not like we really read the disclaimers. The only websites I read the disclaimers are porn sites, because you never know if they say, "By clicking here you agree to be billed $29.99"

"instant enrollment"

[Anonymous Coward]

ha ha the URL contains "InstantEnrollment.jhtml".. that's IRONY for you!

I'm sure there are some longer ones than this though, I've seen some that are actually multiple EULAs run together, because they cover multiple services.

And now that I think about, this shouldn't be under "funny", this is fucking sad.

Everybody that visits that page, be sure to click "I DO NOT ACCEPT" so you can let them know that you didn't accept it.

Re:"instant enrollment"

[archeopterix]

ha ha the URL contains "InstantEnrollment.jhtml".. that's IRONY for you!

Hm... this brings up an interesting possibility. URL EULAs!
http://shadycorp.com /ByClickingHereYouAgreeToFulfillOurEveryWish/ YouSucker.html

By the way, by reading this post you agree to mod it up as Insightful.

Heh...

[BrainInAJar]

I checked the EULA out, and apparantly, it is inconsequential weather or not you click "i agree" or "i do not agree"

Clicking "i do not agree" still brings you to the same page...

Re:Heh...

[Sn4xx0r]

inconsequential weather

Every pilots dream...

Re:Heh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, what's up with that? An offer you can't refuse.

Re:Heh...

[mlush]

Yeah, what's up with that? An offer you can't refuse.

More like an offer you can't understand

Re:Heh...

[dsoltesz]

Clicking "i do not agree" still brings you to the same page...

I didn't get that - "Accept" takes you to an enrollment form, "Do not accept" takes you to a flight finder that basically is the home page.

Re:Heh...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I checked the EULA out, and apparantly, it is inconsequential weather ..."

What is inconsequential weather? Do you mean that your American Airlines flight will have no turbulence no matter which button you click?

Re:Heh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who went there & clicked "I do not agree" to avoid all that nonsense (I will not discuss the site/link to it/etc.)? :)

Re:Heh...

[slow_flight]

I was wondering if they track the number of time "I do not agree" is chosen. Currently the count is probably at one (your test of what happens when it's clicked). I wonder if they would re-think their terms if that count started to increase as people were to actually read the thing and mumble "fu*k you" on their way to Southwest.com.

Re:Heh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh No! you clicked on both "i accept" and "i don't accept"!?!?

This will tie up the courts for a long time.

Re:Heh...

[whereiswaldo]

I was wondering if they track the number of time "I do not agree" is chosen.

Unfortunately for statistics gathering purposes, I bet most people simply close their browser window (I do). I don't click any more buttons than I have to because usually the logic goes "If they don't want to surf *our* site, we'll redirect them to a page with zillions of popups and advertising and get paid 0.002 cents in exchange".

From the Website....

[tanveer1979]

News Flash: Our site is being attacked by loony hackers. Sorry you cannot book any tickets today.

Probably the first time in history that an airline had to close down due to slashdot.

Re:From the Website....

[Anonymous Coward]

So is this considered a terrorist act?

Slashdotting Forbidden !

[Fruny]

According to this :

O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure.

Re:Slashdotting Forbidden !

[tulare]

Touche - I thought they must have had a /. clause in there somewhere. Of course, there's also this line further down:

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines.

Heh.

Re:Slashdotting Forbidden !

[syylk]

I thought they must have had a /. clause in there somewhere.

What's the problem?

Timothy simply didn't agree to the terms of service!

Voila'!

Re:Slashdotting Forbidden !

[Anonymous Coward]

You agree that you will not Misuse the Site. "Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following: A. Distribute, disseminate, post, or publish any information or material that degrades, embarrasses, harasses, humiliates, intimidates, or threatens any individual or group of individuals on the basis of their age, ancestry, color, ethnicity, marital status, medical condition, mental or physical disability, national origin, race, sex, sexual orientation, union or nonunion affiliation, or any other basis protected by federal, state, or local law or ordinance.

And all this discussion could certainly cause embarrassment or humiliation to some responsible group or individual...

Re:Slashdotting Forbidden !

[mindflow]

We never clicked "I agree" did we?!?

Disclaimer

[cebarro]

Funny - it's quicker to NOT ACCEPT as accepting takes you to the AAdvantage enrollment while NOT accepting drops you right into making a reservation.

Re:Disclaimer

[mizhi]

Imagine the poor soul that takes the time to read this entire agreement and winds up missing his flight. :-)

Re:Disclaimer

[Galvatron]

Hey, genius-boy, the disclaimer is FOR the AAdvantage enrollment. Take a look at the URL: https://www.aa.com/apps/AAdvantage/InstantEnrollme nt.jhtml.

So how is it "quicker" to get dumped back to the reservation page (the page you came from initially), when you're trying to enroll in the AAdvantage program? Oh, that's right, it's not, you're just a fucking moron.

Idiot...

Re:Disclaimer

[MyHair]

Not a problem. Just print it out and read it a couple of times while in line for the security check.

Travel Time

[Anonymous Coward]

So would it just be faster to hitchhike to where your going rather then read the EULA?

it is a violation!

[GoatPigSheep]

However even mentioning this is probably in violation of the text

taken from the disclaimer:

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines

so yes, you did violate a portion of it :)

Re:it is a violation!

[noackjr]

Would it be better to provide this link (see first hit):

Google Search: "american airlines instant enrollment"

Does this mean Google is infringing?

Re:it is a violation!

[pacc]

Does this mean Google is infringing?

Since when are you bound to a contract by reading it?

" If you do not intend to be legally bound by these terms and conditions, do not access and use the Site. "

The obvious solution would be to use
the google cache instead if you want to find out if it's legal for you to go to the Site at all.

Re:it is a violation!

[copterdoc]

It's OK. They clicked "I do not agree" first.

Re:it is a violation!

[AcquaCow]

taken from the disclaimer:

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines

Yeah, you too =)

M. Monitor or copy any Content by using any manual process, or any robot, spider, or other automatic device, without first obtaining American Airlines' prior written consent.

(I'd document my source, but that violates the agreement too =P)

-- AcquaCow

Re:it is a violation!

[WTF Wazzat]

On the other hand, you can link to it without reading the legalese just as you can access the whole site without reading it.

And they call this...

[raboofje]

InstantEnrollment.jhtml. Certainly they don't expect users to read the agreement ;). The current tendency to make those agreements larger and larger and larger is a very bad thing: the result is that the casual reader just won't read them any more. A pretty funny example is the 'FriendGreeting' online greeting card, where the software politely asks your permission to mail the card to every one in your address book. Everyone just seems to press 'I Accept' - and that is totally understandable. Maybe indeed there should be a mandatory 'this license at a glance'-section for those things.

This article is probably illegal :)

[rehabdoll]

"You may not copy, display, distribute, download, license, modify, publish, re-post, reproduce, reuse, sell, transmit, use to create a derivative work, or otherwise use the content of the Site for public or commercial purposes. Nothing on the Site shall be construed to confer any grant or license of any intellectual property rights, whether by estoppel, by implication, or otherwise."

If you cant even display it, how is it legal to even review the agreement? :D

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[Performer Guy]

Nobody posted any of the contents. Of course it's legal to mention it. Besides, you don't have to accept the agreement to read it, or comment on it so you are not bound by it in any way.

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[RAMMS EIN]

``If you cant even display it, how is it legal to even review the agreement?''
Because it doesn't say anything about displaying it for _personal_ use. At least, not in the part you cited. Cheers!

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[doug363]

But your computer makes a local copy of the agreement so that you can read it. Making that copy may not be legal unless you're licensed to do it, i.e. you've agreed ;). (This is more or less the justification that software companies use for putting EULAs on their software. You're not allowed to run the software unless you accept the EULA because your computer makes a copy to put in RAM.)

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, he has a point anyway (the other replies to this are also valid). There's a definite problem with the term "copy" (in copyright etc) in general. Considering the fact that you COPY a webpage to your hard-drive by retrieving it from the web, and then the way hardware works (copying contents to framebuffer) you create yet another copy....

Personally I think that any EULA's that contain stuff that is in conflict with the law (tho it legally has to to be determined by a judge) should:
1) be dismissed alltogether
2) be fined
3) easily complained about, for example, via a national institute by the government (bad english)

Stuff like: "you agree that you are over 18 and are allowed to sign this eula" is simply ridiculous since a person younger than 18 CANNOT BE HELD BY IT anyway...
sigh
Lawyers and firms.
This and the Panama-story get me very worked up and worried..

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[Performer Guy]

That is just deliberately muddled thinking, don't excuse it with a smiley, you're confusing people. They put it on the web, therefore they know you're going to view it, viewing it does not constitute an agreement. The click through license has some legal weight to it now but it does require a CLICK THROUGH, understand? You need to click your agreement, it's not a passive thing.

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[Bartmoss]

The weird thing is that to view the pages, your browser has to download them; commercial use in my eyes would definitely include ticket booking by a corporate customer.

This eula is a load of crap.

I propose that all slashdot users go to the site and click "I do not accept". That's a great way to tell them what we think, plus it looks like you get to their functional site anyway.

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[darien]

Stuff like: "you agree that you are over 18 and are allowed to sign this eula" is simply ridiculous since a person younger than 18 CANNOT BE HELD BY IT anyway...

Maybe it's different in the US, but certainly in the UK there's no general reason why minors can't enter into legal agreements. Otherwise (just off the top of my head) they wouldn't be legally able to walk into a shop and buy sweets, or indeed to buy and install a copy of Windows.

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[Hope Thelps]

Because it doesn't say anything about displaying it for _personal_ use. At least, not in the part you cited. Cheers!

Provided that you don't engage in commerce, for example by buying a ticket from them, since commerical use is banned.

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[Hope Thelps]

Maybe it's different in the US, but certainly in the UK there's no general reason why minors can't enter into legal agreements. Otherwise (just off the top of my head) they wouldn't be legally able to walk into a shop and buy sweets, or indeed to buy and install a copy of Windows.

In the UK minors can enter into contracts, and those contracts are valid. However the contracts are voidable by the minor i.e. at whatever point they want to cancel the contract and not be further bound by it they can.

Re:This article is probably illegal :)

[Hope Thelps]

Actually, try here for a much more thorough analysis :
http://www.lawreform.ie/publications/data/volum e1/ lrc_3.html
but general rule is what I said, most contracts with minors are valid unless and until repudiated by the minor

"So don't accept...

[gafferted]

Clicking "I do not accept" appears to still grant access to the site.

So I can still book a flight without agreeing to donate my firstborn to their catering department.

Andrew

Re:"So don't accept...

[screwballicus]

donate my firstborn to their catering department.

At least maybe then the food would be edible.

Re:"So don't accept...

[KjetilK]

Hehe, yeah, I did that too.

Perhaps, if a lot of people click "I don't accept", they might get the message...

Re:"So don't accept...

[tapper]

Everyone seems to have not read the page. This EULA covers signing up for their Frequent Flyer program, it is not about booking flights or searching... If you don't accept you can't sign up for Frequent flyer online. You don't even get this if all you are doing is booking a flight.

EUA Violations

[Associate]

"However even mentioning this is probably in violation of the text."

Not to mention linking without approval.

AAs AllAdvantage Program or Website?

[spacefight]

It's about AAs frequent flyer program, not about the whole site (the title and the URL says it):

If you choose not to accept these terms, you may enroll in the AAdvantage program offline by contacting AAdvantage Reservations/Customer Service.

USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Born in the USA... Yeah, baby!

I miss one paragraph

[roguerez]

"You're not allowed to use our planes to fly them into buildings."

Re:I miss one paragraph

[flewp]

Well, the terrorists simply clicked "I do not agree"...

Re:I miss one paragraph

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact agreeing would serve no purpose. What can a frequent flyer program offer a terrorist bent on catastrophic suicide.

They wrote it for a reason

[hoegg]

I decided to scroll around it for a minute and happened upon this gem:

You agree and understand that you will not bring against AMR Corporation, American Airlines, or any of its affiliated entities, agents, directors, employees, and/or officers any class action lawsuit related to your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site.

I mean, that's stupid. If your incompetent network admin leaks the travel schedules of me and 10,000 other Americans, we "voluntarily" waive the right to sue you?

If I was me (and I am), I would simply choose another airline who doesn't want to try and hoodwink me into something I will regret.

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[SlashChick]

"If I was me (and I am)..."

Thanks for clarifying that. ;)

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[thejk]

Actually, they probably cannot enforce that, if it comes to it. For a reference, see the recent ruling for Comb v. PayPal. Basically, you cannot make end users give up their basic legal rights through EULA, etc., if I understand the ruling correctly. But, hey, IANAL. Somewhat off-topic, it really bothers me that EULAs and most legal documents are, well, written in abstruse legalese. Is anyone aware of a movement in the US to limit the use of complex legalese in favor of plain engligh? I have found the following sites on google, but they are mostly for other countries -- except one that refers to the Michigan Bar effort.

• UK: www.plainenglish.co.uk/law.html
• India: http://www.globallawreview.com/lr8.html
• Michigan Bar: http://www.michbar.org/committees/penglish/columns /131.html

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[Anonymous Coward]

This is my favourite section:

Act as an agent or attorney in fact for any person who is not:
1) A member of your immediate household; or
2) Your direct supervisor at your place of employment.

[laugh]Travel agents apparently cannot use the site, and if you have a problem with it, the only possible way you can hire legal counsel is if (s)he happens to be supervised by you or a member of your immediate household. ahhhhhh rediculous.
You're correct.
You can never sign away basic rights. An example of this is if you sign a contract saying I can kill you at any time. Nope.

Infact, even liability waviers rarely hold up in court, as if something has gone wrong, someone is negligable.

Of course, I'll disclaimer this with the following. I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. In fact, this isn't advice at all. Please ignore the text above. Any downloading, copying, reuse, modification, or displaying for any other means than to test the reading skills of 4-year-old monkeys is expressely prohibited.

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[back_pages]

I think programmers should submit all legal correspondence in either assembly, Perl, or Lisp.

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[Tomster]

Somewhat off-topic, it really bothers me that EULAs and most legal documents are, well, written in abstruse legalese. Is anyone aware of a movement in the US to limit the use of complex legalese in favor of plain engligh?

Somewhat off-topic, it really bothers me that most computer documents are, well, written in abstruse 'technicalese'. Is anyone aware of a movement in the US to limit the use of complicated 'technicalese' in favor of plain engligh?

Somewhat off-topic, it really bothers me that most medical documents are, well, written in abstruse 'medicalese'. Is anyone aware of a movement in the US to limit the use of complicated 'medicalese' in favor of plain engligh?

Legalese is painful to read, but it exists for a good reason, just like 'technicalese' or 'medicalese' or other 'ese's. I feel your pain though, I do a little patent work in our office and that stuff is a nightmare.

-Thomas

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[Zathrus]

No, no, no...

"Technicalese" is a misnomer. Documents that are for consumption by the average user do not use the same jargon and poor sentence structure as documents meant for a sysadmin or programmer. Yes, there are tons of instances where this isn't true - and the docs suck. This is why programmers should not write docs and you should hire tech writers to do so (yes, I say this as a programmer).

Medical materials certainly do have "medicalese", but they also have a plain text section that is much easier to read. The prescription drug industry discovered this was necessary after people started suing them for being unable to determine what the side effects were, what the drug interactions were, etc.

Legal documents usually have no such section. It's very much a case of the lawyers building a wall around their own industry to keep the common person out. Sooner or later some of these absurd EULAs are going to be challenged and struck down for not being understandable by the average reader. Equally important, it's absurd to expect someone to read and understand a 3500 word document just to buy an airline ticket.

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[Auzure]

"It's very much a case of the lawyers building a wall around their own industry to keep the common person out." if you really believe this, let me ask you a question: If legal contracts were to include a plain language section -- which would be legally enforcable? The legalese, or the plain language? If it is the plain language, why even include the legalese? If it is the legalese, then the plain language would be superfluous at best, and misleading at worst.

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[CowboyMeal]

Is anyone aware of a movement in the US to limit the use of complex legalese in favor of plain engligh?

Engligh? Is that like engrish? Eh, that would probably be better than legalese anyway.

At least more entertaining... "All your civil liberties are belong to us!"

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[stet]

I would simply choose another airline who doesn't want to try and hoodwink me into something I will regret.
Doesn't matter. The gov't will just take your rmoney and give it to them anyway.

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[hoegg]

Hey, sometimes people need to be reminded. :)

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[thejk]

Instead of repeating, I will add to (and disagree in part with) what Zathrus said. Sure, legalese serves a need, the need to be precise. But precision and intelligibility (i.e. clarity) are not mutually exclusive. This is the meat of my argument. They *are* compatible, and one must not be sacrificed for the sake of the other in legal documents. Without much further ado in this regard, let me simply offer you a much better argument already made by someone else.

As for my disagreement with Zathrus, I don't think that the evil conspiracy by selfish (and insecure) lawyers is behind the use of legalese. The need for precision *and* the lawyers' laziness seem more likely reasons to me. Plain and simple, it would take more time for the American Airline's team of lawyers to come up with more intelligible yet equally precise EULA. They chose not to spend that extra time, and that's what bothers me.

Re:They wrote it for a reason

[Tomster]

I think we are perhaps making a distinction between the need to express things in a precise and complete fashion, and the difficulty of being both precise and clear.

My original point was simply that legal language fills a need to be precise in the legal realm, just as medical terminology fills a need to be precise. What you've made clear is that legal language is often not very clear. (I just re-read that sentence... the pun wasn't intended but I like it, so it stands.)

So shall we hang all the lawyers and start over? :)

-Thomas

If we're hack and you loose money, not our fault.

[dszd0g]

That's the main thing I got out of a quick skim. It's your responsibility to protect your pass code, but if their system is compromised and someone places an order on your account, it's your fault and they are not liable for any damages that you suffer.

The typical BS that is in almost all EULA.

The Highlights

[KarmaBitch]

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site

Oops. Sorry Slashdot.. You've been bad


American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.

Thank You for respecting my privacy

------------

An example of lawyers that don't understand technology

Download or upload files that may damage the operation of another's computer, such as computer viruses, corrupt files, or similar software

When was the last time you downloaded something that hurt a website :D

Ohh.. I'm sure there's more intresting stuff in there... And I'm also pretty damn sure it's not the longest EULA...

Re:The Highlights

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Download or upload files that may damage the operation of another's computer, such as computer viruses, corrupt files, or similar software

>When was the last time you downloaded something that hurt a website :D

Um, about 10 seconds ago. It's called the slashdot effect. :-p

Re:The Highlights

[Anonymous Coward]

When was the last time you downloaded something that hurt a website :D

I believe the downloading of web pages en masse, aka Slashdotting, would fit this definition.

Re:The Highlights

[nathanh]

Download or upload files that may damage the operation of another's computer, such as computer viruses, corrupt files, or similar software

When was the last time you downloaded something that hurt a website :D

I've never heard of this happening, but they'd be damn useless lawyers if they didn't write in a clause that covered the unimaginable but possible.

They're not stupid. They're covering all their bases... even the bases they haven't seen yet.

Re:The Highlights

[clacke]

Download or upload files that may damage the operation of another's computer, such as computer viruses, corrupt files, or similar software

When was the last time you downloaded something that hurt a website :D

No no, you don't understand. This means that if they distribute a virus, you are in violation of the agreement. According to the "indemnity obligation" paragraph you would still probably have to defend them in a court of law, should any third party sue them for damaging said third party's software.

Re:The Highlights

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

http://insecuresite.com/cgi-bin/rmdashrfslash ?
or maybe it was the last time we all downloaded a website at the same time and hurt the bandwidth of some server.

Lawyers need jobs too :)

[caluml]

Well, it keeps the lawyers in work.

Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.

Sorry - Can't Link to the Site either...

[xean]

The license does state that you are not allowed to link to the site...

• American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines.

I hope timothy didn't accept the license before posting the story.

It does appear that most of it has been stolen from any other terms and conditions page and hacked around to fit American Airlines... Especially all those bits about using their website to distribute files that shouldn't be distributed (who's going to use AA to distribute mp3's?!?!?)

Re:Sorry - Can't Link to the Site either...

[noackjr]

Actually if you click on the "Legal" link in the footer, the "no-link" clause is valid even if all you do is view the page. Thus, the only link you could legally post would be a link to the http://www.aa.com/, as this doesn't require you to have visited the site at all. The implicit license is therefore not in force.

<requisite>IANAL</requisite>

ha

[irve]

1. Open Mozilla
2. Open page with DOM Inspector in sidebar
3. Find the textarea with the text (VERY deep)
4. Right-click and delete it.
5. Accept

One coudl also use the venkman eval to make the text editable and then write your own EULA.

Re:ha

[Anonymous Coward]

Venkman? Dr. Peter Venkman?

Re:ha

[Anonymous Coward]

It obviously doesn't work that way. You would be misleading them: it would seem to them that you had agreed to the license, since your message that was specially crafted to deceive them. That is just not allowed.

Re:ha

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a paper contract and you cut out parts you dont like, sign it, and they don't notice, tough cookies.

Wow..

[popeyethesailor]

Even the Google cache appears slashdotted by diligent Karma whores. Hell, here's a link, in case anyone's interested.

Note: Posting under a hack3d a/c to prove that i'm a karma donator.

If they screw up

[Mika_Lindman]

"You agree to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless American Airlines and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, demands, proceedings, suits and actions, including any related liabilities, obligations, losses, damages, deficiencies, penalties, taxes, levies, fines, judgments, settlements, expenses (including legal and accountants' fees and disbursements) and costs (collectively, "Claims"), based on, arising out of or resulting from your use of the Site, including without limitation any Claims alleging facts that if true would constitute your breach of this Agreement."

So if you book a ticket online, and they screw up, you can't get your money back?

The law is lacking

[weiyuent]

This is a perfect example of how inadequate laws make life cumbersome for both corporations and their customers.

From the company's standpoint, EULA's could be a real headache, because the company has to hammer out pages upon pages of legalese to cover its own arse.

From the consumer's perspective, ever-expanding EULA's are just as much a nuisance as a potential pitfall when not read properly. It becomes impractical to read them, yet the less you read them before agreeing, the more you expose yourself to being taken advantage of.

The solution is more laws and better laws, and this is where the government CAN do good. If most things that are common sense can be nailed down in public law (i.e. we're not responsible if you scald yourself with hot coffee, we will not spam you, etc.), then EULAs could be trimmed and focused on the unique essentials of a particular situation. That would benefit both consumers and corporations. The only losers in this situation would be all the parasitic lawyers and the sneaky folks with dubious EULAs (*cough* Microsoft *cough*).

Re:The law is lacking

[Mitreya]

Problem is, that the conditions tend to change from the case to case. I suspect that even a reasonable commonsence set changes from case to case. Also, you really do not want a law for every commonsence thing that could occur. There is probably too many of those :)

I was under the impression that an EULA will not hold in court, which is where it will end up sooner or later when some *serious* conflict with the customer will occur.

I bet...

[lendude]

...somewhere in the later third there's a clause reading... "So you've read this far? SUCKED IN!!!"

What's wrong with it?

[Nept]

I think the key line in that agreement is
Likewise, [...] this agreement will be considered broadened to the extent needed to permit [...] third parties to operate within the terms of a written agreement they have entered into with us.
In other words, this policy you have to agree to is only valid as long as it doesn't interfere with agreements AA has and will make with 3rd parties. Which basically means, you're agreeing to anything that AA and its partners agree to.
It reminds me of a lot of EULAs/policies where there is a long list of who the company might and might not share information with and may seem very stringent, but at the very end of the list is a short give away line to the effect that they can share the information with anybody.

Also, it would be illegal according to the terms of the agreement to post this policy here, as in their policy you agree not to "copy, display, distribute, download, license, modify, publish, re-post, reproduce, reuse, sell, transmit" any of their HTML code or "the content of the Site" for public or commercial purposes.

Re:What's wrong with it?

[odie_q]

"Also, it would be illegal according to the terms of the agreement to post this policy here"

Well, I for one am not bound by this agreement, even by AA's definition. I quote: "In return for gaining access to the Site and using it, you agree to be bound by the following Agreement without limitation or qualification"

I never continued past that point, and never clicked the "I agree" button. Of course, it wouldn't make any legal difference if I did.

You're not allowed to look at the site anyway..

[Dynamoo]

The T&Cs say you must not: M. Monitor or copy any Content by using any manual process, or any robot, spider, or other automatic device, without first obtaining American Airlines' prior written consent.. This means that you can't visit the site to read it, surely since that involves monitoring the site with a manual process (i.e. reading it).

Or how about the fact that you must not: O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure. So no posting on Slashdot either!

Re:You're not allowed to look at the site anyway..

[Low2000]

By the time you have finished reading the EULA, You havent agreed to it yet 8p

Re:You're not allowed to look at the site anyway..

[Llyr]

You can read the EULA until you've agreed to it. After that, no. So if you agree to it, you can't look at it again to see if they've changed it (which the EULA says they have the right to do at any time), and must agree in ignorance to whatever unknown things they say in the future.

Technically reading is not a "manual" process, since it does not involve hands. Copying it down while reading it (in order to check the new copy against the original that you agreed to, or take it to your lawyer) would be.

In related news...

[Jugalator]

Something similar has been posted here before: Longest email disclaimer awards. The longest disclaimer was apparently 7K large and the unlucky "winner" was UBS Warburg.

Also, an analysis of stupid e-mail disclaimers.

Mimed by Airhostesses?

[ukryule]

Couldn't they provide a version of their 'terms & conditions' which includes a little video with airhostesses miming actions to clarify it...

"Our trademarks and logos are protected *here* and *here* ... When you reach paragraph 17 masks will automatically drop from the compartment above. Please ensure that your rights have been securely passed to us before helping those sitting next to you ... etc"

That way everyone could click on the "I accept" after ignoring the whole thing with a clear conscience!

Re:Mimed by Airhostesses?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a pornographic edition?

Breaks two records!

[Anenga]

One for the longest disclaimer, and one for the most un-read disclaimer. Hmmm... wonder why?

Dueling banjos - be warned!

[tulare]

Forum for actions, governing law, and procedural restrictions
You agree that this Agreement is made and entered into in Tarrant County, Texas. You agree that Texas law governs this Agreement's interpretation and/or any dispute arising from your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site, without regard to conflicts of law principles.

So if you do happen to, um (looks again at EULA) get busted for swapping copyrighted pr0n on the American Airlines website, you will be under the thumb of Texas law - an institution known as not quite as bad as getting on the bad side of the mob, but since the jails are privately owned and run for profit, it's probably a bad place to be, no?

Never trust a Texan.
--A line from some movie about Geronimo.

Re:Dueling banjos - be warned!

[justzisguy]

Wouldn't Federal law govern this agreement since it deals with interstate commerce?

Re:Dueling banjos - be warned!

[Christianfreak]

but since the jails are privately owned and run for profit, it's probably a bad place to be, no?

How about a hyperlink to back up this completely untrue statement?

Unfortunatly Texas jails have quite a few ammenities that I wish my tax dollars weren't paying for.

Re:Dueling banjos - be warned!

[tulare]

No offense, but the term ignorant comes to mind when I read your comment. Just so you know, there are plenty of references to my "Completely Untrue Statement". Seriously, if you want to whine about your tax dollars, find out how much of them go to subsidize big oil and then wonder why people think and say negative things about the Loner Star State.

Re:Dueling banjos - be warned!

[Mr. Slippery]

How about a hyperlink to back up this completely untrue statement?

Thirty seconds with Google:

Ten percent of Texas prisons are privately run.

In 1999, 15,000 of the state's 151,000 inmates were in privately run prisons.

Unfortunatly Texas jails have quite a few ammenities that I wish my tax dollars weren't paying for.

Since you're ignorant or mislead about such an important issue as privately control of your state's prisions, might I suggest that you take a more careful look at your beliefs about the "ammenities" being provided in prisons?

Re:Dueling banjos - be warned!

[Christianfreak]

Okay fine your statement is about 1/4 true. There are private prisons in Texas, mostly filled with inmates from other states that they shipped here because of over crowding in their own states (no I don't like that either). According to your research we have 38 out of about 115 that exist in the US. (18 other states have them). There is usually a prison for every county in Texas (254 counties), plus some state prisons. That's a long way from "all the prisons in Texas are privately owned".

You didn't actually read it did you ....

[taniwha]

"American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site"

Which has got to be just about the stupidest thing possible .... a web site no one's allowed to link to is one that no one can access.

Re:You didn't actually read it did you ....

[alizard]

Perhaps the largest search engines should be told about this. Wouldn't it be a shame if that site suddenly became invisible to anybody not willing to find AA's URL from a print source and type it in?

Not that I have anything against the company personally, but a company that invokes Darwin should get the consequences they asked for.

just hit "I do not accept"

[jukal]

Did you try hitting the "I do not accept" button. It gives you the exactly same services as the "I accept" does. Does this mean, that now I can just break any rules they stated in that legal jargon :) ?

Re:just hit "I do not accept"

[jukal]

Ohh, actually it does not give you the same services. It just redirects you to the "Make a reservation page". Still, applying the things stated in the Disclaimer makes the whole thing look like a joke.

Re:just hit "I do not accept"

[isorox]

Does this mean, that now I can just break any rules they stated in that legal jargon :) ?

No. To break them on purpose, you need to understand them.

Classic, funny disclaimer...

[antdude]

I found it many years ago:

This product is meant for educational purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Postage will be paid by addressee. Subject to CAB approval. This is not an offer to sell securities. Apply only to affected area. May be too intense for some viewers. Do not stamp. Use other side for additional listings. For recreational use only. Do not disturb. All models over 18 years of age. If condition persists, consult your physician. No user-serviceable parts inside. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. Subject to change without notice. Times approximate. Simulated picture. No postage necessary if mailed in the United States. Please remain seated until the ride has come to a complete stop. Breaking seal constitutes acceptance of agreement. For off-road use only. As seen on TV. One size fits all. Many suitcases look alike. Contains a substantial amount of non-tobacco ingredients. Colors may fade. We have sent the forms which seem right for you. Slippery when wet. For office use only. Not affiliated with the American Red Cross. Drop in any mailbox. Edited for television. Keep cool; process promptly. Post office will not deliver without postage. List was current at time of printing. Return to sender, no forwarding order on file, unable to forward. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to perform. At participating locations only. Not the Beatles. Penalty for private use. See label for sequence. Substantial penalty for early withdrawal. Do not write below this line. Falling rock. Lost ticket pays maximum rate. Your canceled check is your receipt. Add toner. Place stamp here. Avoid contact with skin. Sanitized for your protection. Be sure each item is properly endorsed. Sign here without admitting guilt. Slightly higher west of the Mississippi. Employees and their families are not eligible. Beware of dog. Contestants have been briefed on some questions before the show. Limited time offer, call now to ensure prompt delivery. You must be present to win. No passes accepted for this engagement. No purchase necessary. Processed at location stamped in code at top of carton. Shading within a garment may occur. Use only in a well-ventilated area. Keep away from fire or flames. Replace with same type. Approved for veterans. Booths for two or more. Check here if tax deductible. Some equipment shown is optional. Price does not include taxes. No Canadian coins. Not recommended for children. Prerecorded for this time zone. Reproduction strictly prohibited. No solicitors. No alcohol, dogs or horses. No anchovies unless otherwise specified. Restaurant package, not for resale. List at least two alternate dates. First pull up, then pull down. Call toll free number before digging. Driver does not carry cash. Some of the trademarks mentioned in this product appear for identification purposes only. Objects in mirror may be closer than they appear. Record additional transactions on back of previous stub. Unix is a registered trademark of AT&T. Do not fold, spindle or mutilate. No transfers issued until the bus comes to a complete stop. Package sold by weight, not volume. Your mileage may vary. Known as Hellman's east of the Rockies. Beware of greeks bearing gifts. Beware of gifts bearing greeks. This side up. Don't take any wooden nickels. Don't take candy from strangers. Void where prohibited. Caveat Emptor (Buyer beware) Caveat Vendor (Beware of street people). Donde esta el bano. Beware of DOS. Look both ways before crossing the street. All your base are belong to us. Always wear safety belt. Always wear deodorant. Don't forget to breathe. If you park, don't drink...accidents cause people. This supersedes all previous notices.

This modified disclaimer may not be copied without the expressed written consent of whoever I stole it from.

Re:Classic, funny disclaimer...

[Saint Stephen]

-1 Redundant. Void where prohibited is listed twice.

Re:Classic, funny disclaimer...

[chadmulligan]

Even better coverage of anything whatsoever:

"The worlds most powerful metadisclaimer"

Re:Classic, funny disclaimer...

[hhippo]

Checkout also "The Free Object-Oriented License". Brought to you by the creators of Lzip, the lossy file compression utility... http://lzip.sourceforge.net/license.html

Re:Classic, funny disclaimer...

[dfgdfgdfg]

I think it's from LZip, but lzip.sourceforge.net seems to be down.

Re:Classic, funny disclaimer...

[refactored]

Try my email .sig (cribbed from Sun java sources...), although sometimes my breakfast cereal box gets to me so....

May contain traces of nuts. This email was packed by mass, not volume. Contents may have settled during distribution. This email is not designed or intended for use in on-line control of aircraft, air traffic, aircraft navigation or aircraft communications; or in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility. Reader represents and warrants that it will not use or redistribute the email for such purposes.

Jesus, enough already!

[tulare]

I mean, come on. Has it dawned on anyone else out there that these butt-covering disclaimers are becoming meaningless? What I'd really like to see would be a court opinion to the general idea of "the agreement was written in Legalese, which is no more readable to the person agreeing to the contract than Latin or Esparanto. Given that the person agreeing to the contract could not reasonably be expected to hire an attorney to understand his or her rights before clicking OK in order to buy airline tickets (or install Windows, ahem), the EULA as given is essentially an unenforcable abrogation of constitutionally protected rights. Therefore, the EULA in its entirety is invalid."

Of course, some fucknut tort lawyers would have to get real jobs, but I promise to lose 10^-30 seconds of sleep over that one.

Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming. Is that my alarm clock?

Re:Jesus, enough already!

[Tony Hoyle]

And the people who would have to argue this in court would be ....... Lawyers!

And on that day Satan will be skating to work...

Re:Jesus, enough already!

[blah-Hipo]

this country is beyond repair.

Re:Jesus, enough already!

[GigsVT]

There is a movement to have all contracts written in plain language. As far as I know there are no uniform laws requiring it yet, but do a Google on "plain language contracts". There are some laws coming up in lending and other limited fields that require all contracts to be in "plain language" or "plain english". This movement is advocated by many consumer groups, and it does seem to be catching on.

Re:Jesus, enough already!

[Swaffs]

Perhaps as a nice first step towards curbing the EULA mania would be to make a law that says that if anything within the EULA is illegal (you must turn over your first born, etc.) then it voids the entire EULA. This should cause companies to be a lot less restrictive, and hopefully a lot less verbose, when writing their EULA's.

Re:Jesus, enough already!

[Dyolf Knip]

make a law that says that if anything within the EULA is illegal (you must turn over your first born, etc.) then it voids the entire EULA

_Very_ nice. That would be "is illegal at the time it was 'signed'" though, right? Probably wouldn't want a future law nullifying vast multitudes of existing agreements.

It also ties nicely into the 'lawyers & politicians as coders' metaphor. They better do their best to get it right the first time or when it 'crashes', they lose a lot of dosh.

No web crawlers?

[riflemann]

Interesting to note from the agreement:

[You shall not] Monitor or copy any Content by using any manual process, or any robot, spider, or other automatic device, without first obtaining American Airlines' prior written consent.

However:

$ wget http://www.aa.com/robots.txt
--10:23:00-- http://www.aa.com:80/robots.txt
=> `robots.txt' Connecting to www.aa.com:80... connected!
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not found
10:23:01 ERROR 404: Not found.

So they've not got a robots.txt file. Do they expect web crawlers to read and understand this also??

Re:No web crawlers?

[trezor]

They're corporate *bastards*, not sysadmins. You think the webmaster wrote this? :)

The EULA prpbably phorbited you to check for robots.txt as well. Just linking the EULA was, according to the EULA, not allowed for anyone but aa, if I remember correctly.

So... What's the deal? You make it public. And say it's not for public use. Scizofrenic weirdos.

Re:No web crawlers?

[jsac]

[You shall not] Monitor or copy any Content by using any manual process, or any robot, spider, or other automatic device, without first obtaining American Airlines' prior written consent. Forget the part about robots, spiders, or other automatic devices. You shall not Monitor or copy and Content by using any manual process. Yes, that means that you can't even click on a damn link without prior written consent from a lawyer.

But will it stand up in court?

[Anonymous Coward]

I ask this because I clicked the DO NOT ACCEPT button and was still taken into their site to a booking system. Does this mean I can breach their TOS and they can do jack sh*t? LOL

But I haven't accepted the agreement yet so

[ninthwave]

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines. You are also denied permission to use any trademarked or copyrighted material to provide such hyperlinks or references, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines. American Airlines bears no responsibility for sites that provide hyperlinks or references to the Site unless those sites are operated by American Airlines.

Is it illegal if I haven't agreed?
What can they do to me
Why do they care if people link to them
What a load of rubbish

Sorry probably a waste of ones and zeroes but not as much as that dribble. The agreement says it is to protect your privacy while using the site but if you read the whole agreement they can do what ever they want with third parties, no recourse to tell you and the agreement can be changed at any time anyway. They aren't protecting privacy at all in that document in fact it looks pretty much like they have already sold their customers down the river and added a clause in the agreement that you can not sue them for anything that results from using the site, like the selling of personal information.
So the agreement should read
We can and will sell your information to third parties.
If you use this site you can not sue us.
It would be an easier read at that.

But the can't hyperlink clause is funny.

Re:But I haven't accepted the agreement yet so

[Servo]

Let's help them sue to have every reference to their website removed from the Internet.

Re:But I haven't accepted the agreement yet so

[ninthwave]

Hmm so emailing them a link to the slashdot article and a huge rant would be a good idea.
Or only good if a gross of us do it.

Re:But I haven't accepted the agreement yet so

[Servo]

Nah, go around and figure out everybody who's linked to their website(s) and alert AA what these hooligans are up to. Its bad for business if everybody knows your website address, ya know.

Re:But I haven't accepted the agreement yet so

[ninthwave]

Well maybe I should point them to the many links in this article. Maybe I should email them specifically about a user called ninthwave who is also talking negatively about the site (sorry the Site) which is also against the agreement. Maybe I should point out that I linked to them (sorry not I but ninthwave) without their written permission. And maybe I should point out the existence of a google cache existing.
Because none of us has accepted their agreement to use the Site (big S but not t because it is not The Site just the Site)

pure BS

[master_p]

Nothing is legal unless backed up by a law signed by the government. So this EULA is pure BS.

I'd like to nominate...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to nominate this as the longest license.
I wouldn't even call it a license, it's political gibberish.

I hear the feds knocking on my door now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Introduction

Thank you for visiting the American Airlines web site titled "aa.com" (the "Site"). In return for gaining access to the Site and using it, you agree to be bound by the following Agreement without limitation or qualification, so please carefully review this Agreement before proceeding. If you do not intend to be legally bound by these terms and conditions, do not access and use the Site. American Airlines reserves the right to change this Agreement and to make changes to any of the products or programs described in the Site at any time without notice or liability. Any such revisions are prospectively binding on you and therefore you should periodically visit this page when you use the Site to review the then current Agreement that binds you. American Airlines also reserves the right in its sole and unfettered discretion to deny you access to the Site at any time. American Airlines enters into agreements with third parties from time to time to provide our customers with the opportunity to obtain special services, products or prices offered by the third party. You will not be deemed to be violating this agreement when acting in accordance with the terms and conditions of any such program. Likewise, the terms and conditions in this agreement will be considered broadened to the extent needed to permit such third parties to operate within the terms of a written agreement they have entered into with us. The titles in this Agreement are provided only for your convenience and are not to be used in interpreting the Agreement.

Intellectual property notifications

Unless otherwise noted, all information, AAdvantage account information, articles, data, images, passwords, Personal Identification Numbers ("PINs"), screens, text, user names, web pages, or other materials (collectively "Content") appearing on the Site are the exclusive property of AMR Corporation or American Airlines, Inc., or their subsidiaries and affiliates:

A. All information, products, services and software contained on or used in the Site ("Content") is Copyright 2002 by American Airlines, Inc. All rights reserved. Please assume that everything you see or read on the Site is copyrighted to, or used with permission by, American Airlines unless otherwise noted.

B. The trademarks, logos, service marks, and trade dress (collectively the "Trademarks") displayed on the Site are registered and unregistered Trademarks of American Airlines, Inc. or others.

C. Images of people, objects, or places displayed on the Site are either the property of, or used with permission by American Airlines, Inc., American Eagle Airlines, Inc., AMR Corporation, AMR Training Group, TWA Airlines LLC or AMR Investment Services.

D. American Airlines owns or uses by permission all software contained on the Site, including without limitation all HTML code and Active X controls. Copyright and other laws and international treaty provisions protect this software. The law expressly prohibits any modification, redistribution, or reproduction of the software, and such actions could result in severe civil and criminal penalties. American Airlines will seek and support prosecuting violators to the maximum extent possible.

E. You may not copy, display, distribute, download, license, modify, publish, re-post, reproduce, reuse, sell, transmit, use to create a derivative work, or otherwise use the content of the Site for public or commercial purposes. Nothing on the Site shall be construed to confer any grant or license of any intellectual property rights, whether by estoppel, by implication, or otherwise.

F. For additional information regarding American's intellectual property, please click on the "Copyright" link at the bottom of any page.

Your representations and warranties

By using the Site, you represent and warrant that you are 18 years of age or older and possess the legal right and ability to enter into this Agreement and to use the Site in accordance with all of the terms and conditions of this Agreement. You accept financial responsibility for all use of the Site under your name or account, including without limitation all uses of your account by others, including minors living with you. You may allow other members of your household to use the Site under your name or account only if you agree to pay all charges that they incur and to be responsible for all other aspects of their usage. You further agree to supervise all minors who use the Site under your name or account. You agree not to assign, transfer, or sublicense your rights pursuant to this Agreement.

Your indemnity obligation

You agree to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless American Airlines and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, demands, proceedings, suits and actions, including any related liabilities, obligations, losses, damages, deficiencies, penalties, taxes, levies, fines, judgments, settlements, expenses (including legal and accountants' fees and disbursements) and costs (collectively, "Claims"), based on, arising out of or resulting from your use of the Site, including without limitation any Claims alleging facts that if true would constitute your breach of this Agreement.

Limitations on your use

American Airlines provides the Site solely to permit you to determine the availability of goods and services offered on the Site and to make legitimate reservations or otherwise transact business with American Airlines, and for no other purposes. The Site is for your personal, non-commercial use. You agree that you will use the Site's services only to make legitimate reservations or purchases for you or for another person for whom you are authorized to act both legally and under the terms of this Agreement.

You agree that without limitation you shall not make any false reservation or any reservation in anticipation of demand. If American Airlines determines that you have confirmed multiple reservations to one or more destination on or about the same date, American Airlines may without notice cancel all confirmed space associated with the multiple reservations. You agree to abide by the terms and conditions of purchase American Airlines imposes including, but not limited to, payment of all amounts when due and compliance with all rules regarding availability of fares, products, or services. You are completely responsible for all assessments, charges, duties, fees, and taxes arising out of your use of the Site.

Your account information is owned by and proprietary to American Airlines. While you may access your account information through the Site, you may not give access to your account to any person or entity other than a member of your household or a person that you directly supervise as part of your career or employment. You may not give access to your account to any third party on-line service, including, but not limited to any mileage management service, mileage tracking service, or mileage aggregation service.

You must access your account information directly through the Site and not through a third party web site, including but not limited to any mileage management service, mileage tracking service, or mileage aggregation service. You also violate this Agreement if you enable an AAdvantage member to access account information without visiting the Site.

You agree that you will not Misuse the Site. "Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following:

A. Distribute, disseminate, post, or publish any information or material that degrades, embarrasses, harasses, humiliates, intimidates, or threatens any individual or group of individuals on the basis of their age, ancestry, color, ethnicity, marital status, medical condition, mental or physical disability, national origin, race, sex, sexual orientation, union or nonunion affiliation, or any other basis protected by federal, state, or local law or ordinance.

B. Abuse, defame, harass, stalk, threaten, or otherwise violate others' legal rights, including but not limited to rights of privacy and publicity.

C. Download or upload files that may damage the operation of another's computer, such as computer viruses, corrupt files, or similar software.

D. Download or upload files that contain materials, including but not limited to software that violate the intellectual property, privacy, or publicity rights of others unless you own, control, or have been authorized to exercise such rights.

E. Misrepresent or omit the origin or source of any file you download or upload.

F. Download or upload files that do not contain the posted proprietary language, author attributions, and/or copyright, patent, or trademark notices.

G. Distribute, disseminate, post, or publish any indecent, infringing, obscene, or unlawful information or material.

H. Engage in any commercial purpose including but not limited to:
1) Advertising or offering to sell any goods or services.
2) Conducting contests or surveys.
3) Distributing chain letters, or advertising with respect to any Ponzi scheme or pyramid scheme.
4) Advertising or offering to sell any business opportunities, direct sales opportunities, employment, independent contractor positions, multi-level marketing opportunities, or securities.

I. Post, send, or otherwise disclose confidential information, trade secrets, or other confidential and/or protected proprietary data of any entity or person, including but not limited to AMR Corporation, American Airlines, Inc., American Eagle Airlines, Inc., AMR Investment Services, AMR Training Group or TWA Airlines LLC, or any of their affiliates.

J. Download or upload files that you know, or reasonably should know, cannot be legally distributed through the Site.

K. Upload, download, or otherwise export or re-export software from the Site: (1) to a national or resident of or into any country the U.S. has embargoed, including without limitation, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Syria, or Yugoslavia; (2) to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's Specially Designated Nationals list, or (3) to anyone on the U.S. Commerce Department's Table of Denial Orders.

L. Copy or create derivative works from, display, distribute, license, perform, publish, recreate, reproduce, sell, transfer, or transmit any information, products, services, or software obtained by, from, or through the Site.

M. Monitor or copy any Content by using any manual process, or any robot, spider, or other automatic device, without first obtaining American Airlines' prior written consent.

N. Act as an agent or attorney in fact for any person who is not:
1) A member of your immediate household; or
2) Your direct supervisor at your place of employment.

O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure.

P. Act as a mileage management service, mileage tracking service or mileage aggregation service for any AAdvantage member.

Q. Access information about any AAdvantage member protected by site log-in and post it on any other web site, with or without that AAdvantage member's consent.

R. Utilize an AAdvantage member's password or personal identification number during log-in, unless you are:
1. The AAdvantage member to whom that password or personal identification number is assigned (the "Authorized AAdvantage member");
2. A family member of the Authorized AAdvantage Member, acting with the Authorized AAdvantage Member's permission; or
3. An employee of the Authorized AAdvantage Member's employer, acting with the Authorized AAdvantage Member's permission.

S. Engage in any other conduct that is, or that American Airlines deems to be, in conflict with this Agreement.

American Airlines forbids such Misuses, and access of the Site for any such Misuses or other similar purposes is an unauthorized use of the Site.

No warranty by American Airlines

The Content may contain inaccuracies and/or typographical errors. American Airlines may alter, change or improve the Content at any time and without notice. American Airlines makes no representations or warranties as to the Content's completeness or accuracy, and makes no commitment to update the Content. American Airlines makes no representations about the Content's suitability for any purpose.

YOU USE THE SITE AT YOUR OWN RISK. THE CONTENT IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, MERCHANTABILITY, NON-INFRINGEMENT OR TITLE. IN NO EVENT SHALL AMERICAN AIRLINES OR ITS AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES (WHETHER CONSEQUENTIAL, DIRECT, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, PUNITIVE, SPECIAL OR OTHERWISE) ARISING OUT OF, OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH, THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR FOR ANY OF THE CONTENT OBTAINED THROUGH OR OTHERWISE IN CONNECTION WITH THE SITE, IN EACH CASE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH DAMAGES ARE BASED ON CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, TORT OR OTHER THEORIES OF LIABILITY, AND ALSO REGARDLESS OF WHETHER AMERICAN AIRLINES WAS GIVEN ACTUAL OR CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE THAT DAMAGES WERE POSSIBLE.

American Airlines neither warrants nor represents that your use of information and material on the Site will not infringe upon the intellectual property rights of third parties. American Airlines shall not be liable for any virus or other damage to your computer equipment or other property due to your accessing, browsing, or using the Site or due to your downloading any audio, data, images, materials, pictures, text or video from the Site.

Because American Airlines provides services and products in many parts of the world, the Site may refer to certain goods, products, and/or services that are not available in your area. A reference to goods, products, and/or services without limiting their geographic scope does not imply that American Airlines offers or intends to offer those goods, products, and/or services in all locations.

Use of information you provide American Airlines

Consistent with the American Airlines privacy policy, we ask you to provide us with certain information when you purchase travel or when you take advantage of certain personalized services. You agree that when you provide such information, the information will be accurate. Under no circumstances will you provide false or misleading information. We agree to use this information in a manner consistent with our privacy policy. To review our privacy policy, please click on the "Privacy Policy" link at the bottom of any page.

For use of certain services, we may provide you with a pass code. This pass code is proprietary to and the property of American Airlines. However, you must take precautions to insure the security of your pass code. American Airlines assumes no responsibility for and will not be liable in the event that another person learns your pass code or uses your pass code to cause damage to you.

While American Airlines takes reasonable steps to safeguard and to prevent unauthorized access to your private information, we cannot be responsible for the acts of those who gain unauthorized access, and we make no warranty, express, implied, or otherwise, that we will prevent unauthorized access to your private information. IN NO EVENT SHALL AMERICAN AIRLINES OR ITS AFFILIATES BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES (WHETHER CONSEQUENTIAL, DIRECT, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, PUNITIVE, SPECIAL OR OTHERWISE) ARISING OUT OF, OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH, A THIRD PARTY'S UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO YOUR INFORMATION, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH DAMAGES ARE BASED ON CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, TORT OR OTHER THEORIES OF LIABILITY, AND ALSO REGARDLESS OF WHETHER AMERICAN AIRLINES WAS GIVEN ACTUAL OR CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE THAT DAMAGES WERE POSSIBLE.

No offer to sell or buy securities

The information on the Site does not constitute an offer to sell, or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities and must not be relied upon in connection with any investment decision.

Links to other sites and to the Site

The Site may provide hyperlinks or references to other sites. While American Airlines endeavors to provide links only to sites that are reputable and safe, we take no responsibility for the information, products, or services obtained on such other sites and will not be liable for any damages arising from your access to such sites. American Airlines provides any such links to other sites merely for your convenience and our inclusion of such links and frames in the Site does not imply an endorsement of the linked or framed sites, their content, or the persons or entities operating those sites. Therefore, you assume sole responsibility for using links or pointers to third parties.

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines. You are also denied permission to use any trademarked or copyrighted material to provide such hyperlinks or references, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines. American Airlines bears no responsibility for sites that provide hyperlinks or references to the Site unless those sites are operated by American Airlines.

Your communication with us

American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.

American Airlines does not accept or consider unsolicited proposals related to its business, including but not limited to proposals for advertising campaigns, logos, names, processes, products, promotions, services, slogans, and technologies. American Airlines therefore requests that you not send such proposals. Please also refrain from sending original creative artwork, blueprints, demonstratives, designs, layouts, photographs, or samples. American Airlines has adopted this policy to prevent claims that we have copied such unsolicited ideas without authorization, when, in fact, we developed the idea independent of or even long before receiving the unsolicited proposal. If you do send us unsolicited proposals, then do so with the understanding that American Airlines may use any concepts, ideas, inventions, know-how, or techniques that you disclose in those communications for any purpose, including the developing, manufacturing, and/or marketing of goods, products, or services. American Airlines may do so free of any obligation to compensate you for that use.

Comparison monitoring of on-line chats or telephone conversations with American Airlines

The Site may provide you the ability to have an on-line chat session with American Airlines or with information as to how you can contact American Airlines by telephone. You may use these functions only for business purposes related to the Site. For quality assurance purposes, American Airlines may monitor, record, and/or transcribe the contents of these communications. By contacting American Airlines, you agree that the communication may be monitored, recorded, and/or transcribed and you consent to the monitoring, recording, and/or transcribing. Such records may be kept indefinitely or disposed of at our discretion.

Your use of Forums

You agree to use any bulletin boards, chat rooms, conferences, or other communication or message facilities ("Forums") contained on the Site only to send and receive material and messages that are proper and related to the particular Forum. You further agree that you will use the Forums in conformity with all applicable laws and this Agreement. You agree that you will not Misuse a Forum.

American Airlines reserves the right to remove at will and without notice any Content on the Site, including anything you post in a Forum. You understand that any use by you of a Forum constitutes a public communication. You understand that American Airlines owns any and all information or material that you post on a Forum. You agree that you waive all of the rights you have to any information or material that you post on a Forum. American Airlines has the right to do whatever it wishes with that information or material, including but not limited to deleting or editing for any reason any posting by you. You further acknowledge that American Airlines does not endorse or sponsor any information or material posted by Forum users, and that American Airlines has no responsibility to approve, review, or screen such information or material.

Forum for actions, governing law, and procedural restrictions

You agree that this Agreement is made and entered into in Tarrant County, Texas. You agree that Texas law governs this Agreement's interpretation and/or any dispute arising from your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site, without regard to conflicts of law principles. Any lawsuit brought by you related to your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site must be brought in the state or federal courts of Tarrant County, Texas. You agree and understand that you will not bring against AMR Corporation, American Airlines, or any of its affiliated entities, agents, directors, employees, and/or officers any class action lawsuit related to your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site.

Other terms

This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement governing your access to, dealings with, and use of the Site. Of course, separate agreements may attach to any goods, products, or services you obtain, purchase, or use from the Site. In the case of a conflict between this Agreement and any agreement specific to any goods, products, or services that you obtain, purchase, or use from the Site, the terms of the specific agreement shall govern.

Any failure of American Airlines to assert any rights it may have under this Agreement does not constitute a waiver of our right to assert the same or any other right at any other time or against any other person or entity. If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision.

Readability

[scot4875]

I especially like how nicely formatted and spaced it is, ensuring optimum readibility.

Block-right text and no paragraph breaks? It almost looks like a Slashdot comment...

--Jeremy

Re:Readability

[khuber]

Hehe. Yes, and thanks for putting it in a tiny scrolling box to make it even more annoying!

-Kevin

I don't see the problem

[pavera]

Granted its a draconian crazy license...
but companies are required to cover their butts, people who own their own companies know this... its obscene the amount of things that companies can be sued for...

At any rate, its not even that bad, ever signed up at Ameritrade? Etrade? any of those places, the agreements you have to read/agree to are thousands of times longer than that...

Anyway, the agreement isn't really that long (I signed an 8 page agreement when I got cable internet access... I've signed many many 4 or 5 page agreements, the lease on my apartment was 6..) so the internet is getting more ecommerce, and with that come obligations on the part of companies, and agreements that the consumers must make... fine.. life goes on.

Holy Bullets Batman!

[coene]

"You agree that you will not Misuse the Site. "Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following:"

You know the EULA is too long when on a "you will not" clause, the bullets go all the way to the letter S

Re:Holy Bullets Batman!

[GigsVT]

Don't Do What Donny Don't Does: The 10 Do's and 500 Don'ts of American Airlines.

Too bad...

[imag0]

I wanted to bad to clear out the text box and put in "Here at AA, we love our lawyer's cock."

That I would have accepted.

Anecdote...

[shic]

While an undergrad, one course (taught in Prolog) required all the students to take a given program, amend it and provide hardcopy traces of the output after each of the 5 stages to show that the program "still worked." Leaving aside the inherent flaws (which I could argue mean the original program could never "work!") I stumbled upon the documentary requirement placed on students. Two of us produced the first phase of the first part's printed documentation and a projection that a complete answer would cost tens of thousands of pounds in paper and ink and take several years to print even given exclusive use of the university's fastest printers. When challenged, the lecturer (who set this dastardly task) explained that all he really wanted was a 'heavy' submission from each student - in order to dissuade moderators from questioning the grades he deemed appropriate as they would have no desire to wade through a few hundred pages of output before making their case!

The sooner people realise that documentary complexity and volume doesn't gain advantages the better. It would be great to see a shift in opinion about such treatise requiring that the document be taken as a whole - and considered void in it's entirety should it contain anything redundant, unnecessarily convoluted or not legally binding. If this doesn't happen, I can only envisage licenses plummet further towards their own obsolescence.

This is a great resource

[KidSock]

If I ever want to create a license agreement I can just refer to their site. They have everything in there. I can just take the bits an pieces that sound official, change the wording a little, and voila! poor mans EULA.

Re:This is a great resource

[kubrick]

Be careful... I'm sure that must violate some clause in there. :)

Is this legal??? Rather funny!

[lightweave]

I just brwosed throuhg the text and was wondering that they claimed the "Intelectual Property" "right" even on such things like numbers ("PINS"). Really funny that one. Another thing that I nocticed. In the agreement you agree that you are over 18 and have the right to enter such an agreement. The nice thing about this. What happens if you are below 18 or even 13 and still sign it and do some things on it. At least here in Germany such a binding is void and the company that accepted it has all the disadvantages of it. It can't even go to the parents for refunds (or whatever the term is) unless they can really show that the parents approved of it.

Google Mirror

[Nick Harkin]

Google Mirror

and if you ever do book, just click, i agree, it take you to the same place. ????

Slashdotting illegal!

[infolib]

"Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following:
...

O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure.
Timothy, take down that link!

Editors....do your job!

[harlows_monkeys]

I went to the American Airline site, and the story is simply wrong. You can use the site just fine, without ever seeing that agreement. You only see the agreement when you try to sign up for their frequent flyer program.

There is nothing at all newsworthy here, for nerds, or anyone else. Come on, editors...don't accept junk like this.

Re:Editors....do your job!

[ninthwave]

Yes but the agreement states that it is for the Site completely

"Introduction

Thank you for visiting the American Airlines web site titled "aa.com" (the "Site"). In return for gaining access to the Site and using it, you agree to be bound by the following Agreement without limitation or qualification, so please carefully review this Agreement before proceeding. If you do not intend to be legally bound by these terms and conditions, do not access and use the Site. "

I think they are trying to have a Data Protection Privacy agreement and hired a software lawyer who confused the whole thing and created a useless piece of dribble drivel.

A pet peeve of mine...

[George Walker Bush]

Even worse than long legalese disclaimers/EULAs is when web sites put them in a @#$@#$@# text field widget!

Text fields are intended for USER INPUT, not for the purposes of displaying text. Is there a reason why they couldn't have just put the text as regular HTML text on the page?

Is it to inconvenience users by forcing them to click frequently, and thus discouraging them even more from reading it?

Re:A pet peeve of mine...

[TheSunborn]

They do it to get the scrollbar for the text, so the user can click the "I Agree" button widtout having to scroll. Stupid maybe, but atleast they do have a reason.

Martin Tilsted

Re:A pet peeve of mine...

[Anonymous Coward]

They could just had used an inline frame.

Nothing to see; move along please.

[Godwin O'Hitler]

Sorry, but as a translator I have had quite a few major web sites to translate and this EULA (read "charter" in most other languages) is neither shorter nor longer in any significant way than most others I've seen. For obvious reasons, I'm not going to say what these other sites are (professional ethics...), but I will say that since words are my billing units, meaning I have to count them every time, I know what I'm talking about. 3000 to 4000 words is commonplace -- and believe me, translating them is boring!

That's plain wrong

[lightweave]

If I put up my personal website anybod can access it who finds it even without any link to it.
If I tell you the URL of my website you can type it in and access the pages. No link involved. Of course for a company it is much better to get as many links as possible pointing to their site, because it is inevitable that some yousers will click it and some of them will even buy.
There are users at ebay who will even bid on used toilet paper so it is plain stupid to not allow any links. Even if you could enforce this.

Slashdot article is in violation !

[Natal VC]

> However even mentioning this is probably in violation of the text.

Yep:

"You agree that you will not Misuse the Site. "Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following:

[..]

O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure."

- N.

Muahahahaha!

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess it doesn't even really matter...I clicked on the "I do NOT accept" button and still got on the site.

Pay lawyers $100,000 to write a perfect agreement but pay a web master only $200 and the whole things goes to hell. :)

hook

You can't violate the text

[noz]

"...even mentioning this is probably in violation of the text."

You can't violate the EULA if you don't accept it. If you don't accept it, I guess you can't fly American Air!

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[Anonymous Coward]

"The last paragraph, however, is the greatest laugh-inducer:

If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision.

So, they could essentially put "You must name your first child after American Airlines", have it be struck down as idiotic, but the rest of the agreement still stands...nice :)"

You must get a lot of laughs then, because I've seen that clause in a LOT of online and offline agreements. Basically if the law says a particular clause doesn't hold up in court the rest isn't invalid. IANAL of course so I can't say how legal that position is.

This isn't a disclaimer about using their site...

[furchin]

This deals with enrolling in the AAdvantage program. You can still buy a ticket from them, you just can't get the frequent flier miles :)

As long as this?

[mitsuhama]

The Commonwealth Bank Of Australia Conditions for Netbank.

Re:As long as this?

[lightweave]

Actually this is not an EULA it rather is a FAQ. If you read the subjectlines of the paragraphs you see that this is not about binding a customer, rather it is to explain what happens in certain circumstances. I'd say that this is actually a good document.

You don't have to accept it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try clicking on "I don't accept". You will be forwarded to the main page anyway. ;-)

Texas Law

[Anonymous Coward]

I belive that clause was but it to prevent jurisdiction shopping. If some organization want to challenge the agreement, they'll have to do it in the state AA is based.

Re:Texas Law

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt there's any stipulation that says they have to do it in the state AA is based in. Granted, their Corporate headquarters are in Fort Worth, but what really does that mean? IANAL, but "Corporate HQ" probably isn't a legally-binding term. No law prevents a business to have a distributed corporate hierarchy across state lines. I'd imagine that they could go jurisdiction shopping wherever they had presence, then just put whichever state they felt best suited their needs in the EULA.

Re:Texas Law

[DancingSword]

No law prevents a business to have a distributed corporate hierarchy across state lines.

Actually, I read about one big ERP ( IIRC ) company having to choose some specific place as their corporate HQ -- they'd run a hierarchy-on-demand system with no HQ, but that wasn't acceptable to the IRS.

'read that in "Corps Business: the 30 Management Principles of the US Marines" ( David H Freedman, and it's an excellent book )

The funniest part

[sanermind]

...is that the URL of the webpage with the disclaimer is:

...InstantEnrollment.jhtml

while it goes on to state:

please review and accept the following terms and conditions before continuing on AA.com.

Instant, uh-huh...

here's the kicker.

[jericho4.0]

The scariest part of this EULA?

You agree that Texas law governs this Agreement's interpretation

It doesn't matter if you're a minor, retarded, or insane. We'll get you.

Re:here's the kicker.

[Servo]

That is actually one of the few things that makes sense. The company is based out of Texas, so they are going by local law.

It protects them from having a seperate agreement for every locality that might access and use the site. Now, wether or not Texas version of law is any better or worse on the matter, thats up for debate.

This is one of those large gray areas that has arrisen because of the internet. You have a company that is in Location A, and is going by 1 set of laws, but you are in Location B, which has a set of conflicting laws. Which apply?

Sometimes it would appear really easy to answer. Say there is a website out there with pictures of naked 14 year olds. It is hosted in a country which has a low age of consent that allows such content. Now someone from the US goes and views those pictures. Clearly the US law apply's to the person doing the viewing, and that person is acting in an illegal manor.

The problem I see in their statement about using Texas Law is that American Airlines does business in many municipalities. But perhaps that is another reason why they put that clause in there.

Re:here's the kicker.

[Brian See]

Joking about messing with Texas aside, it could be a lot worse.

I mean, how about a click-through contract that required you to file any and all claims in say, the U.S. District Court for the Marianas Islands? Just another adhesive clause...

Re:here's the kicker.

[Servo]

Speaking of jokes...
They also say "Everything's bigger in Texas".

Even contracts. :)

Priorities

[Andy Smith]

Shame their 9/11 security wasn't as tight as their web site T's and C's.

EGADS!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've found the perfect EULA for my software projects. :D

Re:The law is lacking-A measure of humanity.

[Anonymous Coward]

Er...no. Common-sense is common because the majority know and respect it. An implicit state which comes about because it's passed down from parents to children. Common-sense also has a degree of flexability to it. The growth of rules you see being spelled out has a few roots. The steady abandonment of personal responsability (It's all his fault). The failure of parents to serve as good models of common-sense in action (Do as I say, not as I do). The failure of others to act upon "failures of common-sense" (see no evil,speak no evil,hear no evil), or worse encourage it (yeah man! You beat the system). The abandonment of mores and ethics as valid guideposts to the ways one conducts oneself (it's ok as long as it don't appear to hurt anyone else). You will see more and more as long as people think that they will gain something by abandoning common-sense. Weither or not it hurts others, or will eventially hurt themselves doesn't matter in a world were time's measured by a clock, instead of a life.

So isn't it traditional

[Russellkhan]

...for someone to post the full text of the article in case the site gets slashdotted or people don't have the energy to click the link or something like that?

I mean, this EULA is exciting stuff, nobody wants to miss a chance to read it.

Russ

Its time to deny the denial

[jopet]

I think it is time to deny the denial for hyperlinking to somebodys site. I am sick and tired of seeing "agreements" that deny everyone the right to do what the WWW is designed for: hyperlinking. There should be a law that disallows such agreements or makes them void. If they dont want links: fuck them, they are free to remove their site from the WWW and they are free to restrict access by passwords etc. If the have a freely accessible website on their server it is braindead to think you could prevent linking to it.

EULA

[locarecords.com]

Unfortunately there is going to be a whole plethora of court cases regarding EULA before their legality and usage becomes accepted and regulated. In the meantime they are steadily going to get more and more over the top to try to cover themselves for any and every eventuality. Rather than draw up a code of practice, companies are happier to try to restrict more and more of their customers' rights. Not good business practice in the long run...

Slowly but surely the lawyers are moving in on the Internet....

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

EULAs represent the death of the Internet!!!

Long live the Lawyers who will free us from anarchy!!

;-)

Silly EULA

[Andy Smith]

If it's on-topic to talk about silly EULA's and not just long ones then the silliest clause I've ever seen was for iBill's Commerce Management Interface. It's changed now but at the end of the disclaimer it used to say that you agreed to be bound by the terms and conditions if you either (a) click agree or (b) "close this browser window".

Re:Silly EULA

[program21]

What if you were to kill/terminate the browser process? You didn't close the window, you terminated the app, and the OS closed the window. Could your copy of Windows then be bound to the agreement?

Re:Heh...WRONG you failed EULA 101

[Anonymous Coward]

No it does not. If you click "I do not agree" It takes you to the flight schedule, if you do agree, then it takes you to the AA members registration. YOU FAIL EULA 101.

Does anyone else find it ironic... (ot)

[Ari Rahikkala]

... that the amount of words, characters and paragraphs in this beast of a document might well have been counted by flushing it down (through wc)?

Another classic Disclaimer

[Graabein]

Disclaimer: Any resemblance between the above views
and those of my employer, my terminal, or the view out
my window are purely coincidental. Any resemblance
between the above and my own views is non-deterministic.
The question of the existence of views in the absence
of anyone to hold them is left as an exercise for the
reader. The question of the existence of the reader
is left as an exercise for the second god coefficient.
(A discussion of non-orthogonal, non-integral polytheism
is beyond the scope of this article.)

Apologies to whoever I stole it from.

So who are the nominators?

[rsidd]

"American Airlines nominated..." By whom, given that there are no links? The "anonymous reader"? If so, why is it news? Yes, it's interesting that their agreement is so long, but who knows, maybe there are longer ones out there.

Observation

[quintessent]

The more bloated the agreement is, the more Slashdotters will want to see how ridiculous it is.

So, from (number of people) * (size of agreement), they have an O(n^2) bandwidth cost to their site.

Mailorder privacy

[newfoundry]

[from their privacy policy...] "Protecting your privacy. Your privacy is important to us... " [unless you've read the eula...] "American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose." [and if you want to opt out you'll need a stamp and a lot of patience...] "While we believe this disclosure of your information will result in opportunities that may be of interest to you, you have the right to tell us not to give your information to any third party. If you want American to keep all of your information confidential and not share it with any third party, please mail your written request to American Airlines AAdvantage Program; P.O.Box 619688; DFW Airport, Texas 75261-9688. Your request must include your name, AAdvantage number, mailing address and must be signed. Please allow six weeks to process your request. "

Airmail, anyone?

A longer one than AA

[slimshaney]

Found this one for nokia's Activ Server 2.1 server emulatory, weighting in at 24,000 characters... http://www.forum.nokia.com/files/nds_disclaimer/1, 1183,1723,00.html

We are all going to jail...

[eastshores]

" O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure." :( I'm pretty sure the /.'ing qaulifies :X

Verisign has them beat...

[nachoboy]

...by a long shot. Check out their service agreement. A whopping 237 paragraphs, 31,999 words, and 202,556 characters.

Re:Verisign has them beat...

[Scarblac]

Verisign has them beat by a long shot.

Yeah, but that's a service agreement. Somehow I think this stuff is much more absurd as a contract you have to accept before they allow you to use their #^#$@#%^ webpage . And then if you refuse, they allow you to use their webpage.

Re:Verisign has them beat...

[lightweave]

Actually this is a service agreement and not a EULA that allows you to access their website. I would expect from such a contract to be more lengthy then a simple EULA. I wrote such a contract myself and it also got rather long because you should cover all szenarious you possibly encounter with your customers. This way you don't have to go to court and can settle many things more easily.

On the other hand I find this paragraph from VeriSign rather refreshing: --
2. Use of Information. You acknowledge and agree that we may (but are not obligated to) collect, store, use and/or publish information regarding, and data related to, your VeriSign Web Site, including, but not limited to, your domain name, URL and traffic counts. Possible uses of such information include, but are not limited to, marketing, the development and distribution of lists concerning traffic patterns of (or visits to) web sites and VeriSign member web sites and for other general commercial purposes. Use of any personally identifiable information will be in accordance with VeriSign's Privacy Policy.
--
So basically they say that they are allowed to monitor all your traffic and sell them to whoever they chose. Nice one. The best is, that they use their own privacy policy which is subject to changes. So agreeing to this you have no privacy at all. At the least you are at the mercy of VeriSign.

Why this story made it to /.

[Nept]

cause it's AA. and we know RIAA and MPAA are evil, so AA must be the root of all evil

Re:Why this story made it to /.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh crap -- My modem's flashing AA as we speek!

You agree that you can agree with the agreement

[Anarchofascist]

I only read as far as "By using the Site, you represent and warrant that you are 18 years of age or older and possess the legal right and ability to enter into this Agreement..." before my brain exploded and I had to go out the back and install a spare.

So, am I to understand that by using the site I agree that I am legally allowed to agree to this agreement? <fx src="explode.wav" /> bugger there goes another one.

The lawyers who wrote this crap are clearly a waste of valuable oxygen, water, energy and trace elements.

DDoSing aa.com?

[trezor]

Does DDoSing their site violate their EULA? (-:
No really. With a *strict* EULA like that, wich no person with any sense at all would ever agree to, it really can't be accounted for as wasting their bandwidth or resources. More like saving potential customers the time it takes to read crap like this.

toilet paper printer?

[httpamphibio.us]

Unless you have some magic printer-ready toilet paper the results of that could be pretty ghastly.

Re:toilet paper printer?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're probably not old enough to have used the wax paper the Europeans supplied in the '70s. It's why they like bidets so much...
me

Re:toilet paper printer?

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't seen the Yahoo! Terms of Service yet, have you?

There's enough TP there to last you from birth to death. About 2x the size of AA's, at any rate.

Re:toilet paper printer?

[whereiswaldo]

Try MSN Hotmail, too. Look for the _linked_ EULA's nested inside the main EULA.

Re:toilet paper printer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is the monolithic agreement for MSN - two parts! I've inserted '*********' where a bunch of links to other agreements occur. Yes, in addition to this huge text.
-- begin --
MSN Website Terms of Use and Notices

Last Updated: October 2002

AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND THE MICROSOFT CORPORATION

The MSN Web Site is made up of various Web sites and Web pages operated by the Microsoft Corporation, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, Washington 98052 or its affiliates (collectively, the "MSN Web Sites"). This Terms of Use and Notices applies to the MSN Web Site and does not apply to the content of third parties.

The MSN Web Sites are offered to you conditioned on your acceptance without modification of the terms, conditions, and notices contained herein. Your use of the MSN Web Sites constitutes your agreement to all such terms, conditions, and notices. Your use of a particular MSN Web Site included within the MSN Web Sites may also be subject to additional terms outlined elsewhere in this agreement (the "Additional Terms"). To go directly to certain of the Additional Terms, click on the link below:

Carpoint
Encarta Online
Gaming Zone
MSN Entertainment (Including MSN Music)

MSN Extra Storage
MSN Health
MSN Money
HomeAdvisor

MSN Hotmail
MSN Learning & Research
MSN Mobile
MSN Shopping (eShop)

MSNBC
MSN Photos
Microsoft Billing
Additionally, the MSN Web Sites may themselves contain additional terms, codes of conduct or guidelines that govern use of those sites, including without limitation, particular features or offers (for example, sweepstakes or chat areas).

In the event that any of the terms, conditions, and notices contained herein conflict with the Additional Terms or other terms and guidelines contained within any particular MSN Web Site, then these terms shall control.

Click on the link below for the terms and conditions that govern the use of these additional Microsoft Web Sites and/or Services:

For purposes of clarity, (i) the MSN 8 Subscription Agreement applies to all matters involving any MSN 8 Subscription service; (ii) the Microsoft .NET Passport Terms of Use and Notices apply to all matters involving Passport; and (iii) the MSN Dollars Terms and Conditions apply to all matters involving the MSN Dollars Service. Click on the link below for the terms and conditions that govern the use of certain of these Microsoft Web Sites and/or Services:

MSN 8 Subscription Service

Microsoft Passport

MSN Dollars

PRIVACY AND PROTECTION OF PERSONAL INFORMATION

See the Privacy Statement at http://privacy.msn.ca/ for disclosures relating to the collection and use of your personal information.

MEMBER ACCOUNT, PASSWORD, AND SECURITY

If a particular MSN Web Site, or any product or service offered on any MSN Web Site (each a "MSN Site/Service", and collectively "MSN Sites/Services") requires you to open an account, you must complete the registration process by providing us with current, complete and accurate information as prompted by the applicable registration form. You then will choose a password and a user name. You are entirely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password and account. Furthermore, you are entirely responsible for any and all activities that occur under your account. You agree to notify Microsoft immediately of any unauthorized use of your account or any other breach of security. Microsoft will not be liable for any loss that you may incur as a result of someone else using your password or account, either with or without your knowledge. However, you could be held liable for losses incurred by Microsoft or another party due to someone else using your account or password. You may not use anyone else's account at any time, without the permission of the account holder.

Some MSN Sites/Services automatically provide you with a Microsoft Passport account when you open an account (e.g. Hotmail, MSN Explorer, MSN Internet Services). To learn more about what a Microsoft Passport is, please visit the Passport Web site at www.passport.net.

MODIFICATION OF THESE TERMS OF USE

Microsoft reserves the right to change the terms, conditions, and notices under which the MSN Sites/Services are offered, including but not limited to the charges associated with the use of the MSN Sites/Services. You are responsible for regularly reviewing these terms and conditions and additional terms posted on particular websites. Your continued use of the MSN Sites/Services constitutes your agreement to all such terms, conditions, and notices.

PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE LIMITATION

Unless otherwise specified, the MSN Sites/Services are for your personal and non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from the MSN Sites/Services. Without the advance express written permission of MSN, you may not 'meta-search' the MSN Sites/Services, send, or cause to be sent, any automated queries of any sort to the MSN Sites/Services, or use the MSN Sites/Services in any commercial manner. "Automated queries" shall include but not be limited to using any software that sends queries to any MSN Sites/Services to determine how a web site "ranks" on any MSN Sites/ Services.

LINKS TO THIRD PARTY SITES

The MSN Sites/Services may contain images of and links to third party Web sites ("Linked Sites"). The Linked Sites are not under the control of Microsoft and Microsoft is not responsible for the contents of any Linked Site, including without limitation any link contained in a Linked Site, or any changes or updates to a Linked Site. Microsoft is not responsible for webcasting or any other form of transmission received from any Linked Site nor is Microsoft responsible if the Linked Site is not working appropriately. Microsoft is providing these links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link does not imply endorsement by Microsoft of the site or any association with its operators. You are responsible for viewing and abiding by the privacy statements and terms of use posted at the Linked Sites.

Any dealings with third parties (including advertisers) included within the MSN Sites/Services or participation in promotions, including the delivery of and the payment for goods and services, and any other terms, conditions, warranties or representations associated with such dealings or promotions, are solely between you and the advertiser or other third party. Microsoft shall not be responsible or liable for any part of any such dealings or promotions.

NO UNLAWFUL OR PROHIBITED USE

As a condition of your use of the MSN Sites/Services, you will not use the MSN Sites/Services for any purpose that is unlawful or prohibited by these terms, conditions, and notices. You may not use the MSN Sites/Services in any manner that could damage, disable, overburden, or impair any MSN Site/Service(s) (or the network(s) connected to any MSN Site/Service(s)) or interfere with any other party's use and enjoyment of any MSN Site/Service(s). You may not attempt to gain unauthorized access to any MSN Site/Service, other accounts, computer systems or networks connected to any MSN Site/Service, through hacking, password mining or any other means. You may not obtain or attempt to obtain any materials or information through any means not intentionally made available through the MSN Sites/Services.

USE OF SERVICES

The MSN Sites/Services may contain e-mail services, bulletin board services, chat areas, news groups, forums, groups, personal web pages, calendars, photo albums, file cabinets and/or other message or communication facilities designed to enable you to communicate with others (collectively, "Communication Services"). You agree to use the Communication Services only to post, send and receive messages and material that are proper and, when applicable, related to the particular Communication Service. By way of example, and not as a limitation, you agree that when using a Communication Service, you will not:

Use the Communication Service in connection with surveys, contests, pyramid schemes, chain letters, junk email, spamming or any duplicative or unsolicited messages (commercial or otherwise).
Defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others.
Publish, post, upload, distribute or disseminate any inappropriate, profane, defamatory, obscene, indecent or unlawful topic, name, material or information.
Publish, post, upload, distribute or disseminate any topic, name, material or information that incites discrimination, hate or violence towards one person or a group because of their belonging to a race, a religion or a nation, or that insults the victims of crimes against humanity by contesting the existence of those crimes.
Upload, or otherwise make available, files that contain images, photographs, software or other material protected by intellectual property laws, including, by way of example, and not as limitation, copyright or trademark laws (or by rights of privacy or publicity) unless you own or control the rights thereto or have received all necessary consents to do the same.
Use any material or information, including images or photographs, which is made available through the MSN Sites/Services in any manner that infringes any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, or other proprietary right of any party.
Upload files that contain viruses, Trojan horses, worms, time bombs, cancelbots, corrupted files, or any other similar software or programs that may damage the operation of another's computer or property of another.
Use of meta tag searches on the web sites.
Advertise or offer to sell or buy any goods or services for any business purpose, unless such Communication Service specifically allows such messages.
Download any file posted by another user of a Communication Service that you know, or reasonably should know, cannot be legally distributed in such manner.
Falsify or delete any author attributions, legal or other proper notices or proprietary designations or labels of the origin or source of software or other material contained in a file that is uploaded.
Restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the Communication Services.
Violate any code of conduct or other guidelines which may be applicable for any particular Communication Service.
Harvest or otherwise collect information about others, including e-mail addresses.
Violate any applicable laws or regulations.
Create a false identity for the purpose of misleading others.
Use, download or otherwise copy, or provide (whether or not for a fee) to a person or entity any directory of users of an MSN Site/Service(s) or other user or usage information or any portion thereof.

Microsoft has no obligation to monitor the Communication Services. However, Microsoft reserves the right to review materials posted to a Communication Service and to remove any materials in its sole discretion. Microsoft reserves the right to terminate your access to any or all of the Communication Services at any time, without notice, for any reason whatsoever.

Microsoft reserves the right at all times to disclose any information as Microsoft deems necessary to satisfy any applicable law, regulation, legal process or governmental request, or to edit, refuse to post or to remove any information or materials, in whole or in part, in Microsoft's sole discretion.

Always use caution when giving out any personally identifiable information about yourself or your children in any Communication Service. Microsoft does not control or endorse the content, messages or information found in any Communication Service and, therefore, Microsoft specifically disclaims any liability with regard to the Communication Services and any actions resulting from your participation in any Communication Service. Managers and hosts are not authorized Microsoft spokespersons, and their views do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft.

Materials uploaded to a Communication Service may be subject to posted limitations on usage, reproduction and/or dissemination, you are responsible for adhering to such limitations if you download the materials.

MATERIALS PROVIDED TO MICROSOFT OR POSTED AT ANY MSN WEB SITE

Microsoft does not claim ownership of the materials you provide to Microsoft (including feedback and suggestions) or post, upload, input or submit to any MSN Site/Service or its associated services for review by the general public, or by the members of any public or private group, (each a "Submission" and collectively "Submissions"). However, by posting, uploading, inputting, providing or submitting ("Posting") your Submission you are granting Microsoft, its affiliated companies and necessary sublicensees permission to use your Submission in connection with the operation of their Internet businesses (including, without limitation, all MSN Sites/Services), including, without limitation, the license rights to: copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, edit, translate and reformat your Submission; to publish your name in connection with your Submission; and the right to sublicense such rights to any supplier of a MSN Site/Service.

No compensation will be paid with respect to the use of your Submission, as provided herein. Microsoft is under no obligation to post or use any Submission you may provide and Microsoft may remove any Submission at any time in its sole discretion.

By Posting a Submission you warrant and represent that you own or otherwise control all of the rights to your Submission as described in these Terms of Use including, without limitation, all the rights necessary for you to provide, post, upload, input or submit the Submissions.

SOFTWARE AND CONTENT AVAILABLE THROUGH THE MSN SITES/SERVICES

All content and software (if any) that is made available to view and/or download in connection with the MSN Sites/Services, excluding content and/or software that may be made available by end- users through a Communication Service, ("Software") is owned by and is the copyrighted work of Microsoft Corporation and/or its suppliers and is protected by copyright laws and international treaty provisions. Your use of the Software is governed by the terms of the end user license agreement, if any, which accompanies or is included with the Software ("License Agreement"). You may not install or use any Software that is accompanied by or includes a License Agreement unless you first agree to the License Agreement terms.

For any Software not accompanied by a license agreement, Microsoft Corporation hereby grants to you, the user, a revocable personal, non-transferable license to use the Software for viewing and otherwise using the particular MSN Site/Service in accordance with these Terms of Use, and for no other purpose provided that you keep intact all copyright and other proprietary notices. Any reproduction or redistribution of the content and/or Software is expressly prohibited by law, and may result in severe civil and criminal penalties. Violators will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible. WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING, COPYING OR REPRODUCTION OF THE CONTENT OR SOFTWARE TO ANY OTHER SERVER OR LOCATION FOR FURTHER REPRODUCTION OR REDISTRIBUTION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED. You acknowledge that the Software, and any accompanying documentation and/or technical information, is subject to applicable export control laws and regulations of the USA. You agree not to export or re-export the Software, directly or indirectly, to any countries that are subject to USA export restrictions.

LIABILITY DISCLAIMER

THE INFORMATION, SOFTWARE, PRODUCTS, AND SERVICES INCLUDED IN OR AVAILABLE THROUGH THE MSN SITES/SERVICES MAY INCLUDE INACCURACIES OR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS. CHANGES ARE PERIODICALLY MADE TO THE MSN SITES/SERVICES AND TO THE INFORMATION THEREIN. MICROSOFT AND/OR ITS RESPECTIVE SUPPLIERS MAY MAKE IMPROVEMENTS AND/OR CHANGES IN THE MSN SITES/SERVICES AT ANY TIME. ADVICE RECEIVED VIA THE MSN SITES/SERVICES SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON FOR PERSONAL, MEDICAL, LEGAL OR FINANCIAL DECISIONS AND YOU SHOULD CONSULT AN APPROPRIATE PROFESSIONAL FOR SPECIFIC ADVICE TAILORED TO YOUR SITUATION.

MICROSOFT CORPORATION AND/OR ITS RESPECTIVE SUPPLIERS MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS ABOUT THE SUITABILITY, RELIABILITY, AVAILABILITY, TIMELINESS, LACK OF VIRUSES OR OTHER HARMFUL COMPONENTS AND ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION, SOFTWARE, PRODUCTS, SERVICES AND RELATED GRAPHICS CONTAINED WITHIN THE MSN SITES/SERVICES FOR ANY PURPOSE. ALL SUCH INFORMATION, SOFTWARE, PRODUCTS, SERVICES AND RELATED GRAPHICS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. MICROSOFT AND/OR ITS RESPECTIVE SUPPLIERS HEREBY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS WITH REGARD TO THIS INFORMATION, SOFTWARE, PRODUCTS, SERVICES AND RELATED GRAPHICS, INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, WORKMANLIKE EFFORT, TITLE AND NON-INFRINGEMENT.

YOU SPECIFICALLY AGREE THAT MICROSOFT SHALL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA, ANY MATERIAL OR DATA SENT OR RECEIVED OR NOT SENT OR RECEIVED, OR ANY TRANSACTIONS ENTERED INTO THROUGH AN MSN SITE/SERVICE. YOU SPECIFICALLY AGREE THAT MICROSOFT IS NOT RESPONSIBLE OR LIABLE FOR ANY THREATENING, DEFAMATORY, OBSCENE, OFFENSIVE OR ILLEGAL CONTENT OR CONDUCT OF ANY OTHER PARTY OR ANY INFRINGEMENT OF ANOTHER'S RIGHTS, INCLUDING INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS. YOU SPECIFICALLY AGREE THAT MICROSOFT IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY CONTENT SENT USING AND/OR INCLUDED IN AN MSN SITE/SERVICE BY ANY THIRD PARTY.

IN NO EVENT SHALL MICROSOFT AND/OR ITS SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, PUNITIVE, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THE MSN SITES/SERVICES, WITH THE DELAY OR INABILITY TO USE THE MSN SITES/SERVICES OR RELATED SERVICES, THE PROVISION OF OR FAILURE TO PROVIDE SERVICES, OR FOR ANY INFORMATION, SOFTWARE, PRODUCTS, SERVICES AND RELATED GRAPHICS OBTAINED THROUGH THE MSN SITES/SERVICES, OR OTHERWISE ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THE MSN SITES/SERVICES, WHETHER BASED ON CONTRACT, TORT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF MICROSOFT OR ANY OF ITS SUPPLIERS HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF DAMAGES. BECAUSE SOME STATES/JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, THE ABOVE LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. IF YOU ARE DISSATISFIED WITH ANY PORTION OF THE MSN SITES/SERVICES, OR WITH ANY OF THESE TERMS OF USE, YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY IS TO DISCONTINUE USING THE MSN SITES/SERVICES.

STORAGE SPACE AND OTHER LIMITATIONS

You agree that Microsoft may establish limits concerning use of any MSN Service offered on an MSN Web Site, including without limitation the maximum number of days that e-mail messages will be retained by any MSN Service, the maximum number of e-mail messages that may be sent from or received by an account on any MSN Service, the maximum size of an e-mail message that may be sent from or received by an account on any MSN Service, the maximum disk space that will be allotted on Microsoft's servers on your behalf either cumulatively or for any particular service, such as for storing digital photographs, and the maximum number of times and duration you may access any MSN Service in a given period of time.

You agree that Microsoft has no responsibility or liability for the deletion, corruption or failure to store any messages or other content maintained or transmitted by any MSN Service. You acknowledge that the features, parameters (for example, the amount of storage available to users) or existence of any MSN service may change at any time. You acknowledge that Microsoft reserves the right to sign out, terminate or delete your accounts for any particular Web site or service within MSN that are "inactive" for an extended period of time. "Inactive" means that you have not signed in to a particular service for an extended period of time, as determined by Microsoft, in its sole discretion. The amount of time that Microsoft currently considers as an "extended" period of time is determined based on the particular MSN Web site or MSN Service within MSN to which it pertains, and may be viewed in the FAQ, or other user information relating to the particular service.

MICROSOFT MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT ANY MSN SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE OR ERROR-FREE.

TERMINATION/ACCESS RESTRICTION

Microsoft reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to terminate your access to any or all MSN Sites/Services and the related services or any portion thereof at any time, without notice. Microsoft may also terminate or suspend your access to MSN Site/Service(s) for inactivity, as set forth, above, in "Storage Space and Other Limitations." Microsoft shall have no obligation to maintain any content or to forward any unread or unsent messages to you or any third party.

NO SPAM; DAMAGES

Microsoft may immediately terminate any account which it determines, in its sole discretion, is transmitting or is otherwise connected with any 'spam' or other unsolicited bulk email. In addition, because damages are often difficult to quantify, if actual damages cannot be reasonably calculated then you agree to pay Microsoft liquidated damages of five dollars (US$5.00) for each piece of 'spam' or unsolicited bulk email transmitted from or otherwise connected with your account. Otherwise you agree to pay Microsoft's actual damages, to the extent such actual damages can be reasonably calculated. You agree that Microsoft may charge such damages to your selected Payment Method, as set forth in the Microsoft Billing section, below.

GENERAL

Claims for enforcement, breach or violation of duties or rights under this agreement shall be adjudicated under the laws of the State of Washington, without reference to conflict of laws principles. All other claims, including without limitation claims under or for violation of state consumer protection laws, unfair competition laws, and in tort, shall be adjudicated under the law of your state of residence. You hereby irrevocably consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of courts in King County, Washington, U.S.A. in all disputes arising out of or relating to the use of the MSN Sites/Services. You agree that no joint venture, partnership, employment, or agency relationship exists between you and Microsoft as a result of this agreement or use of the MSN Sites/Services. You agree to indemnify and hold Microsoft, its parents, subsidiaries, affiliates, officers and employees, harmless from any claim, demand, or damage, including reasonable attorneys' fees, asserted by any third party due to or arising out of your use of or conduct on the MSN Sites/Services. Microsoft reserves the right to disclose any personal information about you or your use of the MSN Sites/Services, including its contents, without your prior permission if Microsoft has a good faith belief that such action is necessary to: (1) conform to legal requirements or comply with legal process; (2) protect and defend the rights or property of Microsoft or its affiliated companies; (3) enforce the terms or use; or (4) act to protect the interests of its members or others. Microsoft's performance of this agreement is subject to existing laws and legal process, and nothing contained in this agreement is in derogation of Microsoft's right to comply with governmental, court and law enforcement requests or requirements relating to your use of the MSN Sites/Services or information provided to or gathered by Microsoft with respect to such use. If any part of this agreement is determined to be invalid or unenforceable pursuant to applicable law including, but not limited to, the warranty disclaimers and liability limitations set forth above, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be deemed superseded by a valid, enforceable provision that most closely matches the intent of the original provision and the remainder of the agreement shall continue in effect. Unless otherwise specified herein, this agreement constitutes the entire agreement between the user and Microsoft with respect to the MSN Sites/Services and it supersedes all prior or contemporaneous communications and proposals, whether electronic, oral or written, between the user and Microsoft with respect to the MSN Sites/Services. A printed version of this agreement and of any notice given in electronic form shall be admissible in judicial or administrative proceedings based upon or relating to this agreement to the same extent and subject to the same conditions as other business documents and records originally generated and maintained in printed form.

COPYRIGHT AND TRADEMARK NOTICES:

All contents of the MSN Web Sites are: Copyright (c) 1996 - 2002 Microsoft Corporation and/or its suppliers, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, Washington 98052-6399 U.S.A. All rights reserved.

TRADEMARKS. Microsoft, Advisor FYI, Bookshelf, Carpoint, Computing Central, Encarta, FrontPage, HomeAdvisor, Home Essentials, Hotmail, MapPoint, Microsoft Internet Explorer Logo, MSN Money, MSN, MSN Logo (butterfly), Outlook, Passport Logo, MSN Photos, PowerPoint, Slate, Windows, Windows NT, Windows Media, ZoneFriends, ZoneMatch, ZoneMessage, and/or other Microsoft products and services referenced herein may also be either trademarks or registered trademarks of Microsoft in the United States and/or other countries. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.

The example companies, organizations, products, domain names, e-mail addresses, logos, people, places and events depicted herein are fictitious. No association with any real company, organization, product, domain name, e-mail address, logo, person, places or events is intended or should be inferred.

Any rights not expressly granted herein are reserved.

NOTICES AND PROCEDURE FOR MAKING CLAIMS OF COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT

Pursuant to Title 17, United States Code, Section 512(c)(2), notifications of claimed copyright infringement should be sent to Service Provider's Designated Agent. ALL INQUIRIES NOT RELEVANT TO THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURE WILL RECEIVE NO RESPONSE. See Notice and Procedure for Making Claims of Copyright Infringement.

FOR INFORMATION REGARDING THE MSN.COM PRIVACY STATEMENT CLICK HERE.

ADDITIONAL TERMS:

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CARPOINT

Carpoint Specifications and Pricing for New and Used Vehicles

All vehicle specifications (including year, make, model, trim/style, options/features, color, mileage, VIN number, description, location, and availability) and all vehicle prices (including MSRP, retail prices, invoice prices, option prices, and list prices) provided by Carpoint are believed to be accurate, but Microsoft Corporation and its suppliers do not warrant or guarantee such accuracy. All pricing and specification information should be checked with the automobile dealer or individual selling the new or used vehicle. Microsoft and its suppliers do not authorize the use of such specifications or prices for any purpose other than your personal use, and prohibit to the maximum extent allowable the resale, redistribution, and use of this information for commercial purposes.

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GAMING ZONE

Your use of MSN Gaming Zone ("MSNGZ") is also subject to the Code of Conduct located at the MSNGZ site. Additional policies relating to online conduct, uploaded files, conferences, bulletin boards and other matters are posted at the MSNGZ site.

MSNGZ reserves the right to use numeric codes, global unique identifiers (guids), cookies or other technologies in order to identify specific computers that access the Zone. This information may be monitored to develop aggregate and anonymous statistics regarding computer use on the Zone that may be used for MSNGZ operations or by third parties. Computer identification technology may also be used to enforce the MSNGZ Terms of Use.

Subscription-Based Content

Some contents and/or services on MSNGZ may be offered to you conditioned on your purchase of a subscription. If you elect to purchase subscription-based content/services and transmit to Microsoft a subscription purchase request, you warrant that all information that you submit is true and accurate (including without limitation your credit card number and expiration date), and you agree to pay all subscription fees you incur plus all applicable taxes. You may cancel your subscription to any fee-based content and/or services by contacting Zone Billing Customer Support. If you have purchased an automatically renewing subscription, you will not be charged the monthly subscription fee thereafter (but there are no refunds of subscription fees previously paid). No cancellation of access to free content and/or services or to non-renewing subscriptions is required. Your subscription is personal to you and the members of your household, and you may not transfer or make available your account name and password to others, including without limitation your co- workers. Any distribution by you of your account name and password may result in cancellation of your subscription without refund and in additional charges based on unauthorized use.

To Unsubscribe from the Newsletter

Go to http://newsletters.msn.com/, and sign in, or register if you haven't yet. At the end of the pages listing your personal information, you will be presented with a check-box list of e-mail periodicals. Click the checked box beside the newsletter to clear it; this will unsubscribe you from the newsletter.

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MSN EXTRA STORAGE SERVICE

MSN Extra Storage Service ("Extra Storage Service"), is an MSN service offering extra storage space for your Hotmail e-mail account and for your associated MSN Groups. In order to sign-up for the Extra Storage Service, you must have an existing MSN Hotmail account. Your Account will be charged, and you agree to pay, the amount as specified in the Extra Storage Service description. The Extra Storage Service is provided on a year-to-year basis commencing on the date that you accept this Agreement.

The amount you pay for the Extra Storage Service is not refundable even if you choose to cancel the Extra Storage Service prior to the one year anniversary of the subscription. If you do not notify MSN of your cancellation prior to the expiration of the then current term of the Extra Storage Service, your credit card will be automatically charged for another year of the Extra Storage Service. This offer cannot be resold to any other person or third party as it is specific to the user who directly purchases it.

Microsoft may immediately terminate your Hotmail account, at any time, without notice, if MSN in its sole discretion concludes that you have provided false information in connection with your Billing Service Account, are engaged in fraudulent or illegal activities, are engaged in activities that may damage the rights of Microsoft or others, or are otherwise in violation of this Agreement. If your Billing Service Account is terminated for any such reasons stated above, the charge for this MSN Extra Storage Service is not refundable.

The MSN Extra Storage Service and its benefits are offered at the discretion of Microsoft, and Microsoft has the right to modify or discontinue, temporarily or permanently, the Extra Storage Service, in whole or in part, for any reason, at its sole discretion, with or without notice to you. You agree that Microsoft will not be liable to you or any third party for any modification or discontinuance of the MSN Extra Storage Service.

If you choose to cancel the MSN Extra Storage Service, then on the expiration date of the one year anniversary of your acceptance of this Agreement, your Hotmail account will revert to the storage size of a regular Hotmail account. New e-mails will not be delivered to you until your Hotmail account has been reduced to the storage size of a regular Hotmail account mailbox. You will receive notification from Hotmail when you are nearing your 10MB limit giving you the opportunity to delete some messages. If you do not use your account on a regular basis, your e-mail will be stored for the year of your subscription, then if you do not continue your subscription, and your account is not used on a regular basis, the contents of your account may be deleted.

Re:toilet paper printer?

[Anonymous Coward]

-- part 2 --

If you choose to cancel the MSN Extra Storage Service, then on the expiration date of the one year anniversary of your acceptance of this Agreement, your MSN Groups storage quota will revert to the default storage quota for MSN Groups. If you have exceeded your quota and you attempt to upload additional files, you will be prompted to first delete files to reduce your quota below the limit. If you choose to cancel your account (or if your account is canceled because you have not paid the annual charge), you will be required to delete your files to ensure you are now within the default storage quota for MSN Groups. If after 30 days of cancellation, you have not yet deleted your own files, MSN will delete any files that take your storage over the default limit, starting with the oldest files first. Any files that are deleted are not retrievable by Microsoft at any time. Any of your files associated with MSN Groups that are deleted due to inactivity will automatically reduce your quota. The MSN Extra Storage Service does not prevent any MSN Groups from being deactivated due to inactivity.

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MSN HEALTH

MSN Health is provided to you in association with WebMD. Accordingly, MSN Health is also subject to the Terms and Conditions put forth by WebMD. Please click here to review these Terms and Conditions.

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MSN MONEY

Stock Quotes and E-mail Alerts

Stock quotes appearing on the MSN Money site and in email alerts are supplied by S&P ComStock, Inc. Unless otherwise indicated, stock quotes are delayed at least 20 minutes (NASDAQ stock quotes are delayed at least 15 minutes). Stock quotes indicated as "real-time quotes" are made available without delay following their receipt from S&P ComStock, Inc. Your actual receipt of real-time quotes may be affected by delays in transmission over the Internet, and by other causes. All stock quotes are labeled with "time of last trade" to indicate the timeliness of the data.

Stock quotes are believed to be accurate and timely (subject to the aforementioned delays), but Microsoft and its suppliers do not warrant or guarantee such accuracy or timeliness. You should always consult a stock broker or other authorized financial advisor or representative to establish actual stock prices before making any stock trades or other financial decisions. Microsoft and its suppliers do not authorize the use of stock quote information for any purpose other than your personal use, and prohibit to the maximum extent allowable the resale, redistribution, and use of this information for commercial purposes.

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You are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password and account. You are fully responsible for all activities that occur using your password or account. Please notify Microsoft immediately of any unauthorized use of your password or account or any other breach of security. Microsoft will not be liable for any loss that you may incur as a result of someone else using your password or account, either with or without your knowledge. You may not use anyone else's password at any time.

Bill Pay Service Terms of Use and Privacy Statement

[Click here] to view CheckFree's terms and conditions for use of the MSN Bill Pay service. For detailed information about how CheckFree handles your data for the MSN Bill Pay service, please read [CheckFree's privacy statement].

Trading Online with Brokerage and Mutual Fund Firms

The online trading services which you may access through the links contained on the MSN Money site are services of the listed independent brokerage and mutual fund companies. In order to use these services, you need to have an existing account with such company, or you will need to set- up an account, which you may do after linking to the company's Web site. Microsoft provides links to selected companies for your convenience only. Microsoft is not a registered broker-dealer or mutual fund company, and does not endorse or recommend the services of any brokerage or mutual fund company. The brokerage or mutual fund company you select is solely responsible for its services to you, and you agree that Microsoft shall not be liable for any damages or costs of any type arising out of or in any way connected with your use of such services.

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Other Acknowledgements and Notices

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HOMEADVISOR

Online Mortgage Services

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Home Value Estimates

In no event may a user of the Home Value Estimate Tool ("HVET") use such HVET (including any valuations or other data or information produced by or in connection with the HVET), or any portion thereof, to reverse engineer, reproduce, or otherwise recreate the HVET, any valuations or other data or information produced by or in connection with the HVET or any other Freddie Mac product or service or any portion thereof.

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Crime Statistics

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No Professional Advice

The information appearing in the HomeAdvisor Web site and in email alerts is intended solely as general guidance on the home buying and financing processes, and does not constitute legal, tax, accounting or other professional advice. Real estate contracts, closing procedures and disclosures are in part guided by state law. Individual situations and state laws vary and users are encouraged to obtain appropriate advice from qualified professionals in the applicable jurisdictions.

Accuracy of Information and Calculations

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PRIZM is a registered trademark of Claritas, Inc.

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MSN HOTMAIL

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ENCARTA ONLINE/MSN LEARNING & RESEARCH

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MSN MOBILE

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MSN ENTERTAINMENT (Including MSN Music)]

AMG DATA ("DATA") is the property of AEC One Stop Group, Inc., ("AEC"), doing business as AMG, All-Music Guide and All Media Guide. You may not modify, copy or scan or use any other method to reproduce, duplicate, translate, republish, transmit or distribute in any way any portion of the DATA. You may not download DATA except for your own personal, non-commercial use. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless AEC and its affiliates, Microsoft Corporation and its affiliates, against any and all claims, damages, costs or other expenses that arise directly or indirectly out of or from (a) your unauthorized use of the DATA, (b) your violation of this directive and/or (c) your unauthorized activities in connection with the DATA. Any reproduction, publication, further distribution or public exhibition of materials provided at this site, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited.

Specific Restrictions on Use of Associated Press Material

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MSN SHOPPING (eShop)

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Consumer Guide is a registered trademark of Publications International Ltd.

Epinions, Epinions.com, E-pinion, Epinion, the four faces logo (and each face individually or logo thereof) are all trademarks of Epinions, Inc.

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MSNBC

This site is owned and operated by Microsoft Corporation and contains material which is derived in whole or in part from material supplied by MSNBC, NBC, The Associated Press, Reuters and other sources, and is protected by international copyright and trademark laws. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit or distribute in any way any material from this site including code and software. You may download material from this site for your personal, non- commercial use only, provided you keep intact all copyright and other proprietary notices

Specific Restrictions on Use of Associated Press Material

Associated Press text, photo, graphic, audio and/or video material shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium. Neither these AP materials nor any portion thereof may be stored in a computer except for personal and non-commercial use. AP will not be held liable for any delays, inaccuracies, errors or omissions therefrom, or in the transmission or delivery of all or any part thereof or for any damages arising from any of the foregoing.

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MSN PHOTOS

In addition to the warranty and representation set forth in these Terms of Use, by Posting a Submission that contain images, photographs, pictures or that are otherwise graphical in whole or in part ("Pictures"), you warrant and represent that (a) you are the copyright owner of such Picture, or that the copyright owner of such Picture has granted you permission to use such Picture or any content and/or images contained in such Picture consistent with the manner and purpose of your use and as otherwise permitted by these Terms of Use and the MSN Site/Services, (b) you have the rights necessary to grant the licenses and sublicenses described in these Terms of Use, and (c) that each person depicted in such Picture, if any, has provided consent to the use of the Picture as set forth in these Terms of Use, including, by way of example, and not as a limitation, the distribution, public display and reproduction of such Picture. By Posting a Picture, you are granting (a) to all members of your private group (for each such Picture available to members of such private group), (b) to the general public (for each such Picture available anywhere on the MSN Web Site, other than a private group), and/or (c) to any person with whom you share Pictures through e-mail using the MSN Site/Services, permission to use your Picture in connection with the use, as permitted by these Terms of Use, of any MSN Site/Service, (including, by way of example, and not as a limitation, downloading, printing and making prints and gift items which include such Picture), and including, without limitation, a non-exclusive, world-wide, royalty-free license to: copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, edit, translate and reformat your Picture without having your name attached to such Picture, and the right to sublicense such rights to any supplier of such MSN Site/Service. The licenses granted in the preceding sentences for a Picture will terminate at the time you completely remove such Picture from the MSN Web Site, provided that, such termination shall not affect any licenses granted in connection with such Picture prior to the time you completely remove such Picture. No compensation will be paid with respect to the use of your Picture."

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MICROSOFT BILLING

Charges on your Billing Account

Microsoft bills you through an online account (your "Billing Account") for services and items obtained under this Agreement (the "Products"). You agree to pay Microsoft all charges at the prices then in effect for any Products ordered by you or other persons (including your agents) using your Billing Account, and you authorize Microsoft to charge your chosen payment method (your "Payment Method") for such Products. You agree to make payment using that selected Payment Method. Charges on your Billing Account will be summarized for you online (your "Online Statement"). You will have one Online Statement per Billing Account. Microsoft reserves the right to correct any errors or mistakes that it makes even if it has already requested or received payment.

YOU MUST PROVIDE CURRENT, COMPLETE AND ACCURATE INFORMATION FOR YOUR BILLING ACCOUNT IN ORDER TO RECEIVE THE PRODUCTS ORDERED. YOU MUST PROMPTLY UPDATE ALL INFORMATION TO KEEP YOUR BILLING ACCOUNT CURRENT, COMPLETE AND ACCURATE (SUCH AS A CHANGE IN BILLING ADDRESS, CREDIT CARD NUMBER, OR CREDIT CARD EXPIRATION DATE), AND YOU MUST PROMPTLY NOTIFY MICROSOFT IF YOUR PAYMENT METHOD IS CANCELED (E.G., FOR LOSS OR THEFT) OR IF YOU BECOME AWARE OF A POTENTIAL BREACH OF SECURITY, SUCH AS THE UNAUTHORIZED DISCLOSURE OR USE OF YOUR USER NAME OR PASSWORD. CHANGES TO SUCH INFORMATION CAN BE MADE AT HTTPS://BILLING.MICROSOFT.COM. IF YOU FAIL TO PROVIDE MICROSOFT ANY OF THE FOREGOING INFORMATION, YOU AGREE THAT MICROSOFT MAY CONTINUE CHARGING YOU FOR ANY PRODUCT PROVIDED UNDER YOUR BILLING ACCOUNT UNLESS YOU HAVE TERMINATED YOUR SUBSCRIPTION FOR SUCH PRODUCT (CONFIRMED IN WRITING UPON REQUEST).

Currency exchange settlements will be based on your Payment Method and may be determined by agreements between you and the financial institution, credit card issuer or other provider of your chosen Payment Method (the "Payment Method Provider"). If Microsoft does not receive payment from your Payment Method Provider, you agree to pay all amounts due on your Billing Account upon demand.

Prices for all Products exclude all applicable taxes and telecommunication charges, unless expressly stated otherwise.. To the extent permissible by law, you agree to be responsible for any applicable taxes and telecommunication charges, whether or not such amounts are itemized on your Online Statement or charged to your Billing Account or Payment Method.

If the amount to be charged to your Billing Account varies from the amount you preauthorized, you have the right to receive, and Microsoft shall so provide, notice of the amount to be charged and the date of the charge at least 10 days before the scheduled date of the transaction. Any agreement you have with the Payment Method Provider will govern your use of your Payment Method. You agree that Microsoft may accumulate charges incurred and submit them as one or more aggregate charges during or at the end of each billing cycle.

MICROSOFT MAY SUBMIT PERIODIC CHARGES (E.G., MONTHLY) WITHOUT FURTHER AUTHORIZATION FROM YOU, UNTIL YOU PROVIDE PRIOR NOTICE (CONFIRMED IN WRITING UPON REQUEST) THAT YOU HAVE TERMINATED THIS AUTHORIZATION OR WISH TO CHANGE YOUR PAYMENT METHOD. SUCH NOTICE WILL NOT AFFECT CHARGES SUBMITTED BEFORE MICROSOFT REASONABLY COULD ACT. TO TERMINATE YOUR AUTHORIZATION OR CHANGE YOUR PAYMENT METHOD, GO TO HTTPS:// BILLING.MICROSOFT.COM.

Your non-termination or continued use of the Products on your Billing Account reaffirms that Microsoft is authorized to charge your Payment Method. Microsoft may submit those charges for payment and you will be responsible for such charges. Those submissions will not waive Microsoft's right to seek payment directly from you. Your charges may be payable in advance, in arrears, per usage, or as otherwise described when you initially ordered the applicable Product.

Refund Policies

Subject to any withdrawal right you may have under applicable law, charges are non-refundable unless the price plan terms expressly say otherwise. Except as otherwise required by law, the costs of any returns if permitted will be at your expense.

Online Statement

Your Online Statement will be available monthly after you log-in at https://billing.microsoft.com. Subject to applicable law, you agree that the Online Statement is the only statement of your Billing Account that Microsoft needs to provide to you. YOU ALSO AGREE THAT IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PRINT OR STORE A COPY OF YOUR ONLINE STATEMENT AND TO RETAIN THIS COPY FOR YOUR RECORDS. While you may request a paper copy of your Online Statement, you will be charged a retrieval fee. To request a paper copy of your Online Statement, go to https://billing.microsoft.com. Paper copies of your Online Statement will only be provided for 120 days from the date of the Online Statement.

Microsoft will use commercially reasonable efforts to correct any technical failures relating to an Online Statement within a reasonable time; however, your inability to view an Online Statement does not extend, or relieve you of, your obligation to pay any amounts owing to Microsoft. Unless you notify Microsoft of any error within 120 days after it first appears in any Online Statement, such statement will be deemed accepted by you for all purposes, including resolution of inquiries made by your Payment Method Provider. TO THE EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW, YOU RELEASE MICROSOFT FROM ANY AND ALL LIABILITY AND CLAIMS OF LOSS RESULTING FROM ANY ERROR THAT IS NOT REPORTED TO MICROSOFT WITHIN 120 DAYS AFTER THE ERROR FIRST APPEARS ON YOUR ONLINE STATEMENT.

Due Date: Late Charge; Collection Costs

The amount due to Microsoft for your Billing Account must be paid in full by your Payment Method Provider on the date such payment is requested by Microsoft, not later than 30 days after the billing date; you are not entitled to carry forward a balance. You agree to pay late charges that may be assessed by Microsoft on amounts due but not timely paid. The late charge will be 1% per month (or 12% per annum) on the total amount due but not paid; but if such rate is in excess of any allowable rate under applicable laws, then you will instead be charged the maximum rate that is permitted by law. Microsoft reserves the right to refer your Billing Account to a third party for collection in the event of default. You agree to pay all costs incurred in the enforcement of this Agreement and in collection of any delinquent amounts due, including reasonable attorneys' fees and costs.

Default

If Microsoft does not receive payment for any charge to your Billing Account, you will be in default and Microsoft may suspend or cancel your Billing Account and your access to any or all Microsoft Products. If your Payment Method Provider seeks return of payments previously made to Microsoft, but Microsoft in good faith believes that you are liable for the charge and applicable law allows the Payment Method Provider to seek payment from you, you will also be in default and Microsoft may cancel your Billing Account and your access to any or all Products. CANCELLATION OR SUSPENSION FOR DEFAULT MAY BE MADE WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO YOU AND UPON SUCH CANCELLATION OR SUSPENSION, MICROSOFT MAY STOP DELIVERY OF ANY PRODUCT, AND ANY INFORMATION YOU HAVE STORED ON A MICROSOFT SERVICE MAY NOT BE RETRIEVED AT A LATER DATE.

Termination, Cancellation or Suspension

Microsoft may, in its discretion, terminate, cancel, or suspend an accepted order if Microsoft is notified that your Payment Method has expired or has been canceled, or if Microsoft has reason to believe that any Billing Account information provided to Microsoft is untrue, inaccurate, not current or incomplete. Termination, cancellation or suspension, whether by you or Microsoft, will not alter your obligation to pay all charges made to your Billing Account before such termination, cancellation or suspension (including charges made after termination by you but before Microsoft could reasonably act on your termination notice ). You will not be entitled to any refunds upon termination, cancellation or suspension unless the applicable agreement expressly so provides.

General

You represent and warrant that: (1) you are at least 18 years of age or the age required or allowed under applicable law for making a legal and binding contract; (2) all information that you submit is true and accurate (including without limitation information relating to your Payment Method); and (3) you are an individual (or in the case of an entity, an agent of the entity) authorized to use the designated Payment Method. You agree to pay for all charges (including charges by other persons) and to comply with your responsibilities and obligations as stated in this Agreement. If you are an agent of an entity user, you represent and warrant that you are duly authorized to legally bind the entity to all terms and conditions of this Agreement and that you have made the entity aware of them. You agree not to assign, transfer or sublicense any rights in your Billing Account. Microsoft may: (1) generate print copies of its electronic records and introduce them in evidence as original documents; and (2) prove your agreement or consent in any manner, including without limitation, by showing that a procedure existed by which you must have provided consent or engaged in conduct to obtain the applicable Products.

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©2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Privacy Statement

Gee

[Anonymous Coward]

Ol Timmys been a right busy fellow with the postings.

Surprised he hasn't worked in a "Microsoft Is Evil" rant in the past couple of articles.

Run! /. has violated the agreement

[migstradamus]

" O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure."

Easy way to read EULAs...

[FyRE666]

Just search the text for "your first born", "RIAA" or "pass your email address on to third parties". If no matches, it's probably alright...

Interesting read

[Dexter's Laboratory]

Somewhere in the middle, you start to see interesting things included in the text. In the 87th paragraph there is a rather delicious sushi recipe, in the 90th paragraph, a Seinfeld quote, and in the 92nd, it said "Have you read this far, I'll buy you a Big Mac". Not many people have noticed this because it's quite the enormous mass of text.

Re:Interesting read

[Charles Dodgeson]

in the 92nd, it said "Have you read this far, I'll buy you a Big Mac".

I've seen a draft of a PhD thesis that say in one of the later chapters, "If you've read this far, you've read further than my supervisor."

Why must...

[Soukyan]

everything be a conspiracy to people? It's a legal contract for goodness sake. A long one albeit, but identical to almost every other EULA out there. Hell, it's a combination of all EULA's!

I refused to sign...

[wbean]

I have lots of miles on AA and I refuse to sign that disclaimer. As a result I have to use their call center to get at my AA Advantage account. I've made several complaints about the language in the disclaimer, including a letter to the Chairman. All of them have been shrugged off without a substantive reply. My next step is going to be to concentrate on building up miles on another airline. Signing that agreement is simply not an option.

Re:I refused to sign...

[Anonymous Coward]

What an American hero! Why do people bother with cancer research or helping homeless when such noble pursuits exist? Granted, one frail immigrant child might die by the time you get done reading this, but 'wbean' will have an additional 2 frequent flier miles by then.

Doesn't Matter

[RadioactivePorpoise]

I clicked on 'I do not agree' and it let me into the site anyways

Press "Don't accept" and you see the site anyway

[xlation]

I wonder why they let you in without accepting.
Will they try and force you to sign to book a ticket?

Am I legally bound by this

[oz1cz]

Can I be legally bound by an agreement I haven't signed? Does simply clicking on an "I accept" button amount to a legal obligation?

Isn't this typically american?

[Anonymous MadCoe]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do feel that especially american companies have disclaimers that are this ridiculous, somehow the law in many other countries works better (at least allows for shorter disclaimers)...

'Browser Compatibility'

[rm -f DMCA]

This is worth a good laugh...

How do I determine which browser I am using?
Windows
From your browser, go to the Help menu and choose "About...." A screen will appear showing which browser and version you are using.

Re:'Browser Compatibility'

[nickclarke]

From the same page: Macintosh AA.com requires Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 or higher, or other compatible browsers that support frames, Javascript, cookies and Secure Sockets Layer protocol (SSL). At this time, Netscape browsers are not supported. Using older browsers, non-compatible browsers or disabling browser features, such as Javascript, cookies and SSL, may reduce site functionality.......From your browser, go to the Apple menu. Choose either "About Netscape" or "About Internet Explorer." A screen will appear showing which version you are using. (emphasis mine). Hmmmmm....

See what happens when you refuse to accept it

[Anonymous Coward]

I clicked on the "I do not accept" button and it took me right to a page to book reservations or check the status of my frequent flyer miles (I have none with AA). Many web sites stop you dead in your tracks for refusing a EULA, but apparently, American is more concerned with getting your paid business than your behavior. I guess their lawyers have a lot of time on their hands.

the best part of it is

[Anonymous Coward]

The best part about this license agreement? If you hit "i do not agree" it still allows you access to the page... I imagine there is some legal havoc ready to be started there, or at least they really expect everyone to speedclick past it :/

Re:Run! /. has violated the agreement

[lightweave]

1. Posting this on a newsnetwork could surely be no violation covered by this "EULA". The intent is missing. I guess that a court should see this as well, because the intent of the poster is not to generate a massive load on the server, this is only a side effect of posting it here. The same would be true if a good ad campaign were running and people start to look at the website. But US laws and courts are somewhat twisted anyway so they might pull it through nevertheless.
2. If the servers can't take the small amount of a few slashhdotters how will they ever make some business? I expect that a server should handle quite some amount of hits every day from what only a small proportion will result in actual business. How many customers do they expect if they can't handle a few thousand hits?

yeah but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

They yank you aside at the last minute
before your flight to Cleveland departs
then put you in a room with some Al-Qaeda
looking gentlemen and will ask you to
start removing clothing ...

PayPal TOS Much Longer

[Bob9113]

The PayPal Agreement is 373 paragraphs, 19,127 words, 119,761 characters.

Re:PayPal TOS Much Longer

[jonnythan]

That's a TOS, not EULA. Look over the Paypal TOS and it's vastly different. It covers everything from requirements to be a Paypal store to all the details of recieving a payment.

I don't have any mod points, but

[wheany]

does "Mod parent up! +1, Insightful" count?

It's all very simple, actually

[Anonymous Coward]

EULA:

The following list is the entirety of rights possessed by the purchaser:
1. You have the right to pay American Airlines.
2. You have the right to be silenced.
3. See 1.
4. You have no additional rights in fact, or by being intimidated by American Airlines or its affiliates, or by any other means whatsoever under any condition.

I'm sick and tired of this 'service' economy. All the companies do is outline what services they don't provide.

The Answer

[Angram]

Here you go, folks, the answer to all of your EULA problems, just click on the next block of text.

By clicking anywhere on this text, you agree to retain your rights, and all provisions of any EULA in conflict with the end user will be invalidated.

Now you can do whatever you damn well please, since their EULA doesn't have 'dominance' over mine, and they can't complain that I've invalidated theirs, since they clearly state:

"If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision."

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Expect my lawyer to contact you.

How refreshing...

[Pig Hogger]

How refreshing it is to see a link that still responds, even when slashdotted...

Is posting on /. a violation?

[Anonymous Coward]

I scanned the agreement and found this:

You agree that you will not Misuse the Site. "Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following:

O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure

A /.'ing could certainly be considered in violation!

Comma and 'or'

[Cheese Cracker]

The most common word in the EULA is 'or'. (There were more commas, but I don't count that as a word)
'Or' was used 186 times (4.86% of all words and special characters (eg. punctuation, comma)) in their
EULA. Comma was used 348 times. (8.53%)

So for all you EULA writers out there... use a lot of 'or' and commas in the text... just to make sure you
can protect your site against the evil customers and other evil visitors.

The funny thing is...

[Art_Vandelai]

click on I DO NOT ACCEPT. It appears to be a faster way into the AA.COM site anyways - don't even have to register.

Frequent Fliers, Not Whole Website.

[mikedaisey]

Everybody does know that this is an enduser agreement for their frequent flier program, and not for their website, right?

It's clearly marked there, and if you click on "I Do Not Agree" you are taken to the main page of their website to place your order--no fuss, no muss.

I'm not arguing that some of their terms aren't ridiculous--but this agreement's length is not to block people from the main site, but probably to keep people from abusing their frequent flier program.

Did everyone just tear into the legalese immediately, w/o reading anything else?

Imagine...

[drunkrussian]

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these!

Texas nothing to do with laws

[kbs]

American Airlines is based in Dallas/Ft.Worth (otherwise known as Tarrant County)... I seriously doubt it has anything to do with selective state laws. Dallas/Ft.Worth happens to be a rather large hub for them, so it makes sense for them to want laws there to be enforced since they know those best.

Gah, people and their conspiracy theories...

Also had problems with Paypal and their EULA....

[arock99]

Wasnt worth the assle of getting back 25.00US from them (probably 40 million CAD here!). I'll simply never deal with them ever...I even went as far as looking up at http://www.archive.org/ the EULA I agreed to when i signed up and I was in every rights to win this one...(as I remembered) and their CSRs (Customer Service Reps) were too stupid they kept looking at the current EULA when i kept telling them it didnt apply to the EULA i agreed to years ago....paypal and EULA suck.

Try not accepting.

[JetScootr]

I clicked "I do not accept" and it appears to have let me in anyway. Maybe the EULA is optional?

Re:Try not accepting.

[magerquark.de]

Me too. Really funny :-)

Probably they put all their efforts into the content of the EULA and have no ressources left to implement the button handlers.

My Personal Favorites

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen some sites where by clicking "I Agree" you effectively agree to defend them in court and pay their legal costs should any legal action result from your using their service. I wonder how many people stop and consider the implications of agreeing to that!

No it doesnt't II

[gr0nd]

I'll bet they argue that 'defend' means 'you pay our legal bills if you sue us'.

Overzealous enforcement

[Nonac]

They tried to hold me to the terms of this agreement even though I never saw it or agreed to it.

I was selling Kellogg's AAdvantage coupons that I had cut off cereal boxes on ebay. Somebody from American sent me a threatening letter telling me I was in violation of the terms of use of the AAdvantage program. They also sent a letter to my bidders who backed out of the auction on threat of having their AAdvantage accounts terminated.

When I responded to their original email asking how they can enforce a penalty against me if I never signed up for AAdvantage, they never responded.

Since then, I have continued to sell AAdvantage coupons on ebay in private auctions so American Airlines can't hassle my buyers.

The Web's Shortest Disclaimer

[hyoo]

You must be over 18.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[cwernli]

IANAL too, but I've seen this kind of thing happen in court (was in Europe though), and it held.

What freaks me out is the possibility that this very clause is deemed illegal by a court - now that's where it gets really interesting :)

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[yohaas]

This is a standard severability statement. You'll find it in every contract. Basically, just because one part is found to be invalid, it doens't invalidate the whole contract - and really, why should it.

Snifff...

[Pig Hogger]

They finally got beaten... :( :( :( :(

their own fault!

[freaker_TuC]

... Their own fault, if they make their EULA smaller in size they would not have this much load!

And if you click 'I do not accept'...

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you click 'I do not accept', it still directs you to their Reservation page. I have... reservations aboot that.

+1 Funny

[schlach]

LOL. That's a great idea. I must be the one guy without mod points, but have an imaginary +1 on me.

When I recently had to negotiate a clause in my contract, I didn't do it in perl, but I did find it necessary to break the complex clause into subclauses inside parantheses, linked together with AND and OR operators, so that I could be sure the recruiter knew what he was passing back and forth between myself and the lawyers...

I wish I would have thought to have written it somewhat obscurely... seems like, if you can make them agree to it, you're playing their game ; )

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[Galvatron]

Why should it? Because those clauses are what produce these absurdly long "agreements" that no one ever reads. If the invalidation of a single clause invalidated the contract, then companies would have to be careful to only put things in that were really important to them, and which were likely to hold up in court. The result would be much shorter agreements, and fewer attempts to deprive consumers of their rights.

You know, the more I think about this, the more I like it. Economic theory states that the capitalist system breaks down if there is asymmetry of information. For example, if a car dealer knows he's selling you a lemon, which is why we have anti-fraud laws and the like. Lawyers create an asymmetry of information too, though, because a corporation can afford to have lawyers look at every document they draft or sign, but the average citizen cannot. Often the result is the creation of the onerous "agreements" which essentially state, if you'll pardon the old joke, "all your base are belong to us." People agree anyway, because they don't have the time or ability to check other companies to compare agreements, and see which is the least restrictive. So, if this reduced the ability of corporations to abuse this superior information, I think it'd be great.

I clicked "I do not accept"

[Anonymous Coward]

... and it let me in anyway!!!!

EULA too long: GO ELSEWHERE

[wowbagger]

It would be one thing were this EULA on, say, www.irs.gov and that were the ONLY way to file your taxes, but...

This is on AAvantage, one of many ways to book airline flights online.

If you DON'T like the EULA, screw'em! Go elsewhere. Find one of the 1E100 other travel agents online, and use them.

Also, send a polite but firm letter (NOT EMAIL - real dead trees and toner!) to American Airlines, telling them WHY you are taking your purchase to Marges_travel.com.

IF AA sees that this EULA costs them more than it saves them, THEN (they will change it OR they will go out of business).

Shorter EULA

[Midnight Thunder]

Since all EULAs pretty much has the same goal in mind, here is a simpler version:

In purchasing, pirating or using this product you have lost all your rights. All your bases belong to us.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[Transient0]

> What freaks me out is the possibility that
> this very clause is deemed illegal by a court
> - now that's where it gets really interesting

nice try at a Hofstadter-style self-reference loop. In this case however, if that clause is deemed illegal, the contract would be invalidated since the only thing preventing it's invalidation had been itself invalidated.

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[Pxtl]

IANANAL (I am not anal) but I'm pretty sure it already invalidates a contract to include illegal requirements. All that remains to do is declare that the statement "Illegal parts of this contract are removed" illegal, and the whole thing collapses.

And yes, I agree about the asymmetry of information destroying the free market. That, along with the lack of consideration of those born into a disadvantaged family by no fault of their own, is why I am *not* a libertarian. The libertarian system would require a more informed consumer than is feasible, particularly when information would be more easily concealed with the suggested greater freedom.

Simple solution

[jesser]

Just type this URL into your address bar while viewing the disclaimer:
javascript:for (i=0; t=document.getElementsByTagName ("textarea")[i]; ++i) void(t.readOnly=false)

Then you can delete all the text, change all the vowels to o's, or do whatever you do with annoying contracts in real life.

You can even keep this URL as a "bookmarklet" on your personal toolbar and click it whenever you need to edit a read-only textarea.

Re:Simple solution

[Tom in Boston]

I'm able to edit the agreement as-is in Netscape 4.79. I added some things about making the peanuts easier to open, deleted the part about keeping my seatbelt on while browsing the site, then clicked Agree.

Weee

[Anonymous Coward]

So american retards er airlines has to make moola, and what do they do call slashdot to slashdot the sight, thus violating some portion of the EULA.

Even "references" are prohibited

[Fastolfe]

The license not only prohibits hyperlinks to the site, but references of any kind to the site. So yah, they are breaking the law. :)

Re:Even "references" are prohibited

[Performer Guy]

I don't care what they choose to write, that has no bearing on my obligations. I can say on my web site that you owe me a million bucks. Would you pay up? Go on say "yah".

Re:Even "references" are prohibited

[Fastolfe]

No, of course not.

But if you created a similar legal document on your web site that users had to click through to get to your site's content, and that agreement says that by clicking through, they owe you a million dollars, you have just as much of a right to enforce that as the airline does in this case.

Perhaps a test case like this is what we really need to get these kinds of things nullified.

181 paragraphs, 3482 words, 22411 characters...

[Rorschach1]

...and nobody understood a word that it said, but we all had fun filling out forms and playing with the penciles on the bench there...

Core dump

[duck_prime]

Unless you have some magic printer-ready toilet paper the results of that could be pretty ghastly.

I guess you'll just have to flush cache after you invoke the natural log generator function.

Check out this rare bit of sanity

[NecrosisLabs]

This is a breath of fresh air. I wish more sites would emulate this...

Comb vs. PayPal

[Animats]

Someone else mentioned Comb vs. PayPal in passing. That's a very important case, because it directly addresses how far a click-wrap agreement can go. It's not over yet, but in a ruling on an initial motion, a Federal District Court ruled that PayPal's agreement was a contract of adhesion and an unreasonable one. Requiring commercial arbitration in Santa Clara, California and prohibiting class actions was ruled to be unconscionable. PayPal is fighting this.

osama

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure buried in there is
"if you are a osama bin laden, or any terrorist of any form. Planning on blowing up and/or crashing this plane. You and your friends are not allowed on the plane under penalty of death"...hehe

A longer agreement...

[Gavin Scott]

The Yahoo Instant Messenger agreement is presented to you in a 2-inch-square window, with no option to print the agreement. If you copy the text out, you find that the agreement is 14 pages long, 7,219 words, 44,847 characters in length. Reading this agreement in the original window would require about 1,000 page-down clicks and probably take the average person a significant fraction of an hour to complete (and would not be a pleasant experience).

How can this be enforcable?

G.

Lousy Airlines

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just too much. I'm a travel writer so if you find anything lousy w/the airlines just mail me. I'd love to include it on my site. There's already the Trip from Hell with NWA on my site.

I never liked AA anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

So farewell then, American Airlines.
Your service never was that good anyway
(except for those of us who like air hostesses to look like our mothers or grandmothers).
And now your website reveals further the extent of your contempt for your customers.
Fortunately, there are other carriers.

Shame on you..

[lionchild]

American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines. You are also denied permission to use any trademarked or copyrighted material to provide such hyperlinks or references, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines. American Airlines bears no responsibility for sites that provide hyperlinks or references to the Site unless those sites are operated by American Airlines.

Breaking copyright law! Unless, of course...you didn't click on the ACCEPT link. Hmmm.....

They forgot one

[nd]

Offer valid in 49 states. Sorry, Tennessee.

Ooops...

[petis]

"You agree that you will not Misuse the Site. "Misuse" includes, but is not limited to, using the Site to do any of the following:"

... (snip) ...

" O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure."

I wonder if posting the link on slashdot is in violation of this paragraph.. :-)

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[Fulcrum of Evil]

You must get a lot of laughs then, because I've seen that clause in a LOT of online and offline agreements.

That's because it's a standard severability clause. So far as I know, it should be in all contracts.

Airline security!

[Beansack]

I didn't accept and they let me through. So much for Airline security!

If this is the longest...

[sukotto]

I wonder what the shortest, legally enforcible disclamer is.
(regardless of how enforcible this one actually is of course)

slashdotted

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting this on slashdot probably violates this clause

O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure.

Moderators: How about YAHOO?

[Anonymous Coward]

You call the American Airlines' TOS big?

HA! You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Obviously you have not had a good look at Yahoo's new and improved TOS. Check THIS out:

http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html

AA's only filled up five pages of text when I pasted it into Notepad, but Yahoo's weighed in at nine and a half.

That's what, almost enough words for a mini-novel?

There's more

[Teun]

Other terms

This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement governing your access to, dealings with, and use of the Site. Of course, separate agreements may attach to any goods, products, or services you obtain, purchase, or use from the Site.

Because the main body did not have enough space?

Please Clarify

[warp1]

The tale of the tape includes: 181 paragraphs; 3482 words; and 22411 characters. However even mentioning this is probably in violation of the text.

If you refering to the paragraphs, words, and characters or is it the entire agreement?

I get two different pages

[monk]

and both load fast. So much for "The Slashdot Effect"

I wrote them about this...

[Anonymous Coward]

I complained to the aa.com webmaster when they first introduced this silliness. (It was kind of fun to quote the entire agreement in my e-mail.) Their response:

Subject: Re: AAdvantage Account Access T&C
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 22:38:40 -0500
From: AA Webmaster
To: me

Hello Eric,

Thank you for your comments.

Due to the overwhelming response to the new AA.com, our volume of e-mail has increased and we apologize for the delay in responding to your message.

We appreciate the time you have taken to express your opinion regarding the AA.com Terms & Conditions. It is clear that you feel strongly about this policy. Your message has been sent to AA.com management for further consideration.

We seriously consider all of our customers comments as we prepare future improvements and enhancements to our site.

Sincerely,
Fidelma Early
AA.com Web Services

Original Message Follows:

Hi,

I just visited www.aa.com in an attempt to check my AAdvantage account balance. Upon logging in, I was asked to accept some new terms and
conditions, pasted in below.

This legal document is _9_ pages long. I have neither the desire nor the time to read and understand all this legal crap just to find out how many miles I have in my account. The damn thing is longer than my apartment lease!

For example: "For use of certain services, we may provide you with a pass code. This pass code is proprietary to and the property of American Airlines." Does this mean I can't use the same password for my OnePass or Mileage Plus accounts? Even better, you reserve the right to publish, reproduce, or otherwise use my password in any way and for any purpose!

Consequently, I did not accept the T&C, and, unless there is some way I can access my AAdvantage account online without signing away my soul to AA in some one-sided, humongous tome of legalese, I'll probably lose all interest in maintaining and adding to my frequent flyer account. As far as I know, OnePass and Mileage Plus do not have such obnoxious T&C for their program websites.

What's the deal?

Worried,

Eric

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[BoneFlower]

"You must get a lot of laughs then, because I've seen that clause in a LOT of online and offline agreements. Basically if the law says a particular clause doesn't hold up in court the rest isn't invalid. IANAL of course so I can't say how legal that position is."

I'd bet it is legal. The US Governments non disclosure agreement for vieing classified material-Valid for 50 years for normal stuff, 70 for SCI(super sensitive information with sources detailed)- has the same clause. I doubt the CIA which developed the agreement would have put that in there if it wouldn't actually help.

Wow.. an error off the bat.

[mindstrm]

Thank you for visiting the American Airlines web site titled "aa.com" (the "Site").

Well, I didn't visit 'aa.com' . I most definatley visited 'www.aa.com'... so right off the bat we have a bad contract.

Not a problem...

[AyeRoxor!]

I hit "I do not accept" and it walked me right through. Maybe they should spend the money on programmers instead of fucking skunk lawyers.

Longest? Not even close

[Anonymous Coward]

Try the Commonwealth bank of Australia's netbanking EULA.

http://www.commbank.com.au/login/conditions_spla sh .asp

Comes out at 8480 words! And you have to scroll all the way down to get to the confirm button.
The end key is my friend.

And At The End...

[Anonymous Coward]

... "you just repeat the words "Screw Flanders" over and over and over again." :)

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[Galvatron]

We're drifting pretty far offtopic here, but how is being born into a disadvantaged family any different than being born stupid and lazy? Genetics and environmental factors in infancy certainly aren't the person's "fault" any more than his family's income.

AA.COM?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought this was Alcoholics Anonymous. No wonder I couldn't understand it.

Now that I know who they are, I got drunk and read it again and it made perfect sense.

Bah.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it was like that before, but a direct link to www.aa.com does not lead to the disclaimer.

Have you guys ever read disclamers/EULA's before?

[xintegerx]

Have ANY slashdot readers read any disclaimers/agreements until now? The novelty is that this disclaimer is EXTREMELY LONG, not that the content is unusual.

All web site disclaimers say the company can change the text as they please (but some say without notification/notice and some say they will notify you by 30 days.)

All agreements say if one part is invalid, the rest is still valid.

All agreements say you are responsible for taxes and anything that happens to you from using their services.

Funny disclaimers

[Omniscient Ferret]

The Illegal Art Collection has a EULA including:

Look, when this website goes all crazy and destroys your computer, kills your pet, sleeps with your significant other, digs up all your old poetry and laughs and laughs, then calls up your friends and reads them all those really embarrassing parts out of your journal, like when you said you were "destined for beauty" or some shit like that, we make no guarantees and will simply join with everyone and laugh at your sorry ass, because damn, there's no freaking warranty here. Get it? No warranty. None. At all.

Instant???

[simon13]

I love the page's filename: InstantEnrollment.jhtml

I wonder how "instant" it would be if people actually read through the entire thing!

Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it certainly isn't my fault if you are born st00pid and lazy, so don't expect me to pay for it, either.

Anyhoo, I don't get why such a huge thing can be considered legal anyway when it would be trivial for a lawyer to prove in court that the airline knows people don't read it before clicking OK (it would take days just to understand it, and you should probably have a lawyer review it) yet the airline has no problem profitting from these people they know don't read it.

AA EULA

[sotweed]

American first put this up in May. They sent me some e-mail suggesting I update my preferences at the site, but it turned out primarily to be a ploy to get me to agree to the new agreement. I refused, and wrote to them and told them they were insane to expect people to (a) read (b) understand (c) care and (d) agree to a license which when printed, as I recall, is 14 or 15 pages of fairly small print, and which as people have noted here gives them everything and the user nothing. Here's their helpful answer. I still haven't agreed to it, or flown AA since (and I'm AAdvantage Gold). Note the nonsense about how it's all to protect their user's privacy.

We regret your objections to the Terms and Conditions associated
with the use of AA.com. When we launched our new site, we
strengthened our Terms and Conditions to ensure the protection of
our customers' privacy. When using our site, your privacy is very
important to us.

The new verbiage contained in the agreement is certainly not meant
to alarm our customers or dissuade anyone from using our site. The
simple issue of securing our customers' interest and privacy
effectuated the enhancement of our Terms and Conditions on AA.com.
However, we are concerned by your apprehension and have forwarded
your comments to our managers at AA.com for review.

We will continue to make every effort to ensure that our customers
receive a convenient, personalized Web experience on AA.com. Thank
you for contacting us.

Re:AA EULA

[lightweave]

I bet that the customer privacy is very important to them. After all they make a lot of money with it.
[HINT] They never said they will honour your privacy, only that it is important for them, which is obviously true. :)

Not Too Long

[ReadParse]

It didn't take me long to find longer T&Cs. I just went to Google and searched for "Terms and Conditions", which of course is not going to find those agreements that are called by a different name.

Anyway, the very first one I found was longer than American Airlines', and the second was WAY longer.

1) ICQ: 31,969 characters
2) Lycos 88,220 characters (dude!)

Anyway, here's a summary of about five minutes worth of work. I started to get sick to my stomach and quit after that:

This is `wc -c` output:

6991 tucows.txt
11292 dell.txt
11635 att.txt
13467 ge.txt
22585 american_airlines.txt
31969 icq.txt
88220 lycos.txt

Still an improvement...

[thedji]

"A user may read the paraphrased EULA, then perform an action with the software not specifically outlined in that paraphrased form"

As opposed to the current situation, where they don't read any of it and just click "I Agree"?

I can't speak for the rest of the horde, but I do.

[cicadia]

All web site disclaimers say the company can change the text as they please (but some say without notification/notice and some say they will notify you by 30 days.)

Yes.

All agreements say if one part is invalid, the rest is still valid.

Yes.

All agreements say you are responsible for taxes and anything that happens to you from using their services.

Yes.

Each of your points is correct (for sufficiently loose interpretations of the word 'all').

I'm not really sure what points of mine you're trying to respond to here -- what I'm trying to point out here is that this agreement appears to explicitly say: "By clicking here now, you agree to be bound in the future by whatever we choose to write in this space, forever." And it does appear to be forever, too -- I couldn't find a clause in the agreement which explains how you could get yourself out of this agreement if they changed the terms against your liking.

I do tend to read these agreements, or at least skim them, when they are important to me, and I've never encountered language like that before.

If you still insist that such wording is standard in online service usage agreements, perhaps you could provide a link or two.

I Do Not Accept

[bazra]

But it still let me into the site....

Charles Schwab also has a long one...

[GojiraDeMonstah]

wait. That came out wrong.

EULA and arbitration

[SeanAhern]

Looking through that particular ruling, it only rules on the particular matter of binding arbitration in Santa Clara county. It's a fairly involved ruling, and does set the precident that a EULA can be considered an "inconscionable" (sp?) contract, rendering some sections unenforcable.

At the core, the ruling says that EULAs are like any other contract, and fall under standard contract law. There are rules that contracts have to abide by (for instance, it cannot be wholly one-sided; both parties must benefit).

With all that said, IANAL.

readable perl

[SeanAhern]

...programmers should submit all legal correspondence in ... Perl...

If we did that, it would just as unreadable as the legalese itself! :-)

Cache

[Hairy Dude]

The law expressly prohibits any modification, redistribution, or reproduction of the software, and such actions could result in severe civil and criminal penalties.

I have a copy of your home page in my web cache. So sue me.

database of website EUAs and software EULAs?

[wessman]

Is there a comprehensive website that maintains a database of website EUAs and software EULAs ... now that would be a fun read! Add some discussion boards to each item, and that sounds like a damn good website!

The best part of this EULA

[two_socks]

When I clicked "I do not accept", it plunked me right into the site, so I can check my miles, book tickets, etc.