Wired News: 2002's Greatest Vaporware

Quill writes "Wired News has once again compiled a list of last year's greatest (worst?) pieces of vaporware. The winner (I won't spoil the surprise) has been on the list three times now! The nomination process was mentioned a few weeks ago on Slashdot."

Comments

Re:So glad they didn't spoil the surprise.

[fliplap]

Man, did you even read the entire posting? The nominations were posted, these are the results of the votes.

hmm

[pummer]

how did they forget a Pentium that actually beats an AMD chip running at 2/3 its clock speed?

Re:hmm

[dagar17]

forget the clock rate. How about a pentium that matched the performence for anything near the same price?

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, i wouldn't mind paying $200 for a 1ghz processor if it can perform as well as another $200 2ghz processor.

price/performance is way more important than clock/performance.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, for that matter, stable Windows.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I know! I know! Halo for non-Xbox.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

You must mean stable windowing in Linux.

Re:hmm

[CrazyDuke]

Well, intel has been using a quad pumped (overrated) 100mhz FSB until just recently (now its a 133) while AMD has been using double pumped (again overrated) 133mhz FSB since the 1Ghz+ Tbirds. The new opertons, hammers, or whatever supposedly have an fsb that truely runs at 166 to 200mhz. So the ante will be upped again soon.

Point: Its kinda keeping pace at 3/4's the speed. ;P

Side note/rant: Personally, I'd rather have a 133 32bit frontside 1.0Ghz AMD than a 100 32bit frontside 2.4 Ghz Intel. Who gives a shit about the difference between 10 and 24 multipliers. What, so the cpu can wait 2.4 times more clock cycles to actually get something to do? Unless of course your PC is doing nothing but "i++;", etc. Then it can run off the cache.

Hell, I've got a P-classic 233mmx underclocked to 225mhz with a 75mhz fsb instead of 66mhz and it smokes most PII's(except the ones that have an fsb faster than 66mhz of course)

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a point in what you say, and a big one too.

I remember very well that a P3/450 MHz with its 512K cache on board played DivX better than its 700-800 MHz successors that had only 256K (on the same mainboard, with the same RAM and display card). It wasn't until I upgraded to a P4/1600 that I again had a system that played any resolution/compression DivX I fed it without stuttering.
Kept a 450MHz around for a long time because of that.

Intel never advertized this detail.

Re:hmm

[sveinhal]

how did they forget a Pentium that actually beats an AMD chip running at 2/3 its clock speed?

They do have processors that beats AMD running at 3/2 the clock speed.
Oh wait... two thirds..

Re:hmm

[TCaptain]

"Windows sux? Sure, and linsux desktop users can walk through the rain without getting wet, too."

Hummm doofus...We usually can, its called an umbrella ...as for the rest of your claims, lets see some impartial (ie: non-ms funded) studies to back those statements up

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Use ++i, it's more efficient. Some compilers produce more code for i++ _even_if_ the result is not used.

First Duke Nukem' Forever Post

[Anonymous Coward]

... deja vue week on Slashdot

IN SOVIET RUSSIA...

[MrBallistic]

...you wear the vapor (after standing in line to get it).

sorry... i couldn't resist...
t

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA...

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry... i couldn't resist...

Try harder...

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dumbass. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Die!

sorry... i couldn't resist...

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA

[pummer]

In Soviet Russia, Slashdot doesn't register Anonymous Cowards.

Ba-dum-bum

Re:So glad they didn't spoil the surprise.

[Anonymous Coward]

Still a dupe bud.

SOMEONE AT SLASHDOT IS GETTING LAID??

[Anonymous Coward]

This can be the only explaination for the lack of story checking ...

tf2

[Senator_B]

From the tf2 news pages:

[December 18, 1998] - I Want My TF (TM) II
Well folks, Team Fortress (TM) 2 will be here shortly and community sites are popping up all over the web. Clans are starting to form, Tournaments are being planned, and information pages are being posted. If you haven't checked out the sites yet, be sure to visit our links section or visit PlanetFortress.com for more information.

Gee, I hope none of the tournaments have filled up yet, my clan was just getting off the ground.

2002's Greatest Vaporware

[bucklesl]

My #1 would be "Intelligent Posts on slashdot".

Re:2002's Greatest Vaporware

[Gyan]

>i>My #1 would be "Intelligent Posts on slashdot".

How is that vaporware ? No one expects it in the first place.

Re:2002's Greatest Vaporware

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to moderate you, but it seems they have misnamed the option "-1: Wrong" in the moderation menu.

Most likely an oversight.
The real moderation menu, once fixed, should read like this:
"Normal"
"Wrong"
"Dumb"
"Stupid"
"Slow"
"Right"
"Correct"
"True"
"Funny because it's True"
"Karma Whore"
"Friend of a Friend"

I think I'll make a post-it note of those so I can tape it on top of the mod menu whenever I need to moderate.

Re:2002's Greatest Vaporware

[Tuxinatorium]

No one actually expected DNF to come out this year either. In fact, my bookie is giving a 4:1 payout if it comes out before 2004.

How can it even qualify as vaporware if no one was actually expecting it to come out any time soon? It's more like skeletonware.

Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[MrWa]

And people wonder why it is so hard to make money in the computer game industry...how many people, getting paid how much, have worked for so long to make this game? What are the chances it will come even close to breaking even? If every person that owned a computer bought a copy of this game, at the insane price it would have to be, would that even be enough?

It has been said before but bears repeating: the games of yesteryear had something that all these new games, with their fancy graphics and supposedly advanced AIs, still can't seem to replace. Repeat after us Mr. Game developers: it's all the gameplay.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[geek]

Just think, they didnt even have to make the engine, they bought it from DE/Epic.

This speaks volumes for guys like Carmack who not only design great games, but do so in a timely manner PLUS do it from scratch.

It's just pathetic these guys have taken so long when the single hardest and most complicated part i.e. the engine, was designed YEARS ago by another company.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[pummer]

and think about this. since the engine is YEARS old, the gameplay will suck by the time the game rolls out.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[MuValas]

Actually, the engine, although definitely one of the most technically complex parts, is no longer the "hardest" part. The core engine can still be designed by a small team ( 5, easily, 3 or less if they're really good, a la Carmack), and even in that, the core graphics is pretty much done by one person even on today's game. All the tools for the artist, level designers, and such, take up significantly more programmer time than the engine. And that is dwarfed by the content creation that artists and designers go through. I'd say the hardest part is actually making a fun, interesting game, while still maintaining a shiny patina of graphical goodness.

Go create a single, high-poly, production-level model, including a bunch of animations, and then multiply by about 10,000 and you'll get a feel for the effort involved.

And while I'm sure he was in on the design process, its not like Carmack sat around doing everything himself, surrounded by a chorus of yes-men-and-women, cheering him on. I'm pretty sure most everything outside of the graphics is done by others, please correct me if I'm wrong. Take a look at Armadillo Aerospace, and you'll see where he's been spending his time (and money, yikes!).

And as for needing to sell a copy to every computer user, at an inflated price - do the math and you'll see that's a bit off. Say, $100, and 100 million computers in the country, which makes for a nice cool $10 billion if my maths (as the brits say) are correct. Its a moot point anyway, I'm sure the Duke Nukem' group have made so much cash off the old franchise, that its pretty much a rich-person's hobby at this point.

Hell, I'll be incredibly impressed if they do get a good-quality game out the door any time in the next decade. Give me $50 million or so, and I don't think I'd ever get anything done again, especially not something as demanding and intense as game development.

I'd just get stuck at the stripper motion capture sessions the press has mentioned ;)

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Safety Cap]

And people wonder why it is so hard to make money in the computer game industry...

It is hard if you don't know what you are a doing. Unfortunately, creating software is much like any construction project: without proper planning and design, the only thing you're going to do is spend a lot of money and put out a crappy product. Now, there are exceptions -- particularly if you are working on a single-developer, small project, or you are incredibly lucky -- lucky like my 90-year old grandma who smoked a pack a day ever since she was nine.

Let me quote from the article:

"We're undeniably late and we know it. We've switched engines a couple of times, and we've started over a couple of times. We've made some mistakes, and we've learned from them.
--George Broussard, President, 3D Realms

That pretty much says it all: they had no plan, they're making all of the classic mistakes of software development, and they are burning through the cash as if it were marshmallows at a boy scout outing.

The least they can do is hire a competent project manager to slap those ho's back on track.

Way I figure it, if they had 3 developers and one manager working full time for five years, they've already burned through close to two million dollars and have nothing to show for it. Hope they figure they can sell enough copies to *cough* at least break even. Do'o!

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Anonymous Hack]

This speaks volumes for guys like Carmack who not only design great games, but do so in a timely manner PLUS do it from scratch.

I guess you weren't around when we were all waiting for Quake to come out... and before that Doom... (Repeat ten (thousand) times after me: "it'll be out when it's done".) Anyone for a quick game of Smashing Pumpkins Into Small Piles Of Putrid Debris?

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Kris_J]

The least they can do is hire a competent project manager to slap those ho's back on track.

Project management is a complete waste of time when you don't know how you're going to create the finished product. When you're doing a whole heap of things for the first time you really can't know how long it's going to take.

If, however, all the technical issues have been solved and you just need to put it all together (often a huge task in itself), then you can get a project manager on the payroll.

The actual problem is not poor project management, but out of control marketing. When the programmer says that they don't know how they're going to solve all the anticipated problems (never mind the unexpected ones) don't start hyping the final product. Wait until the technical people actually agree that the project is possible.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[pipingguy]

I'm sure the Duke Nukem' group have made so much cash off the old franchise, that its pretty much a rich-person's hobby at this point.

That's a pretty astute observation, what with the recent Slashdot subjects regarding "what should I do with my life" and "what should a rejected college person do" and all the ensuing replies about how to live one's life when money is concerned.

IMO, the FPS has been done to death since DOOM and the people that originally played (or should I write, "plaid" in /. parlance?) that game are tired of all the iterations that are just the same thing with different boogeymen and rooms.

I don't have twitchy mousefinger disease; I'm waiting for C&C Generals and the not forthcoming Total Annihilation sequel.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[fantastic]

This is the same Broussard who claimed that changing the engine mid stream would *not* affect the release date back in 1998

Yeah right, because it is never going to get released at this rate.

They need an organized project manager, George stick to getting the strippers in the game just right. Leave the project stuff to someone else, purleeeze

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Desert Raven]

Project management is a complete waste of time when you don't know how you're going to create the finished product. When you're doing a whole heap of things for the first time you really can't know how long it's going to take.

I think you have no idea what a real project manager does.

A project manager is not some idiot drone who does fancy graphics to tell everyone what the schedule is. A project manager is there to keep the team focused throughout the entire development cycle, including the research and specifications phase. I've had the privilege of working with a top-flight project manager. Every project he was involved in had clear specifications, came in under-schedule, under budget, with few or no mid-project changes, and had happy programmers. And most amazing of all, the end result worked, and required no post-implementation fixes.

The problems are: #1, most managers think just like you do. They think project managers are just fluff. #2, good project managers are hard to find, especially in IT, since project-management is so under-valued. The project manager I worked with spent most of his career in the aerospace industry, designing jet engines.

(Hint, aerospace corps don't always know how they're going to build something when the project starts either. But, every single project has a project manager.)

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Tuxinatorium]

The Max Payne dev team had about 20 people over 2 years, so if they were payed well that's a production cost under $5 million. There are 200 million computer users in the US alone, and the company makes $20+ from each $25 copy sold. So, they only need to sell 500,000 copies to get $10 mil, which is a 100% return on the investment in only 3 years. IIRC, they sold millions of copies.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Kris_J]

Maybe what you describe works if you separate R&D from product development, but I can't believe that the person you reference was able to consistently break the "Pick two from: On Time, On Budget or Right" rule. Purely based on (bad) luck one of their projects should have hit a speed bump that ran it over budget or over time, unless every variable had been sorted out by some prior project.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[KewlPC]

If you buy a game in a store for $25, the best the developers could hope for is $12.5. This is because the retailer gets half of the game's cost. And them getting as much as $12.50 assumes they published the game themselves, which in the case of Max Payne, they didn't

$25 / 2 = $12.50 (half for retailer, half for publisher)

Of that $12.50 that the retailer doesn't take, it is common for the publisher to take 50%, and divide up the rest among whoever is left. Now, Max Payne was developed by Remedy Entertainment, produced by 3D Realms, and published by GodGames.

So, GodGames got 50% of that $12.50, or $6.25. The remaining $6.25 was divided up between Remedy and 3D Realms. Exactly HOW it was divided up is unknown to me, but let's assume that each got 50%.

Therefore, for every $25 copy of Max Payne sold in a retail store, the developers (Remedy Entertainment) got about $3.12. Now, for a while the game cost $40 or $50, but most publishers pull all sorts of shenanigans so that they can stiff the developer out of their share of the money. Even if the publisher is as honest as a Boy Scout, that's still not a lot of money.

If Remedy was smart, they demanded royalties from the movie rights, console and Macintosh port royalties, etc., but hey, who knows, not everybody has good business sense (and some have downright horrid business sense).

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[zerocool^]

I'd say the hardest part is actually making a fun, interesting game, while still maintaining a shiny patina of graphical goodness.


Tell it to Neverwinter Nights. I'd imagine they spent significantly more time on the building tools and engine than the single player game.

Not taking anything away from the single player game, it was amazing, and took me damn near 100 hours. I think NWN is a good example (and there are few) of a game which spent far-too-long in development, and still came out as a fantastic success, i.e. worth the wait. It's certainly the only game I've bought in recent memory, and that's after using a cracked copy for a while. All 4 roommates in my apartment own a legit copy of NWN. It's that damn good.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Anonvmous Coward]

"And people wonder why it is so hard to make money in the computer game industry...how many people, getting paid how much, have worked for so long to make this game? What are the chances it will come even close to breaking even? If every person that owned a computer bought a copy of this game, at the insane price it would have to be, would that even be enough?It has been said before but bears repeating: the games of yesteryear had something that all these new games, with their fancy graphics and supposedly advanced AIs, still can't seem to replace. Repeat after us Mr. Game developers: it's all the gameplay."

I wonder what Blizzard would say to that.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your numbers, when it comes to retailer profit, are a bit off. I'm not saying the parent to your post was more correct either. In all the time I worked in retail, the ONLY product I saw with a 100% or greater markup was ice. We bought ice for $0.10/bag, and sold them for $1.00 each. Other than that, I've NEVER seen markups over 65%. Now assuming that they're marking it up by 65%, we can say that the retailer pays just over $15 per copy. That's a difference of $2.50 from what you said. I don't know much about what a publisher takes or any of that other stuff, but I know that a difference of $2.50 per copy, when we're talking millions of copies, is a BIG difference.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[tony_gardner]

I hope this is not too picky, but both your examples of poor design are examples of the discovery of a previously unknown engineering phenomenon. In the case of the Tacoma narrows it's vortex shedding, and in the case of the Millineum bridge, a resonant evvect caused by people walking in step with the current vibration. It's rather like discovering that on the trillion-and-first iteration, your CPU explodes. It sucks, but it's not a case of poor planning.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[alexpage]

"$100, and 100 million computers in the country, which makes for a nice cool $10 billion if my maths (as the brits say) are correct"

Actually, as we Brits say, that's "$10 thousand million" - a billion is a million million (1e12) in the UK, not a thousand million (1e9) as it is in the US. Let's see your billionares now! :)

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Safety Cap]

I can't believe that the person you reference was able to consistently break the "Pick two from: On Time, On Budget or Right" rule.

That is a very simplistic concept of project management, and leaves out many essential aspects.

Project management is about managing change and results. If "marketing" says they want to add X, then the project manager will help them understand the effect adding X on both the budget and schedule. If they want to go ahead and add it anyway, then the PM will update the schedule and budget--everyone then understands what is expected, what will be delivered, how much it will cost, and how long it will take. Most people, when confronted with the cost and schedule impact of their change, tend to rethink their position (in my current experience it runs about 4 out of 5).

Note that, like everything else, there are poor project managers who are unable to manage change. You can tell which projects have these guys in charge because they "start over," "switch engines," and are "undeniably late."

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[MKalus]

Having been through Project Managment training and being part in a lot more projects than I want to count on I can tell you right now that a REAL and GOOD PM is the best thing that can happen to a project.

Not only is he going to shield the team from unnecessary distractions : "Hey Cliff, would you mind putting XXXX in?" he is also going to make sure that everybody gets the big picture (we all know how much tunnelvision we can have).

No I agree, a GOOD Project Manager is what a lot of IT projects need, but as said before: It is extremly undervalued ("Why waste 2 months of planning? We can just jump right in and write the code." Ever heard that before?).

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Anonymous Coward]

> Other than that, I've NEVER seen markups over 65%.

You've never worked at Best Buy. They have many accessories (camera bags and cables come to mind) marked up well over 100%. I once paid a little over $2 employee price for a camera tote that retailed for $10. I remember employee price (which is generally slightly over cost) on Monster cables being a third of the retail price (ie, roughly 200% markup).

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, as we Brits say, that's "$10 thousand million" - a billion is a million million (1e12) in the UK, not a thousand million (1e9) as it is in the US. Let's see your billionares now! :) As I say, 1e9 is the same as 1e12, if by 1en you mean "1 to the power of n" ... that is 1, still. =)
You can easily check that yourself: 1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1=1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1*1.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[robman]

e == "ten to the ..."

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[ConceptJunkie]

Total Annihilation?!

That was one of my favorite games of the last several years and the only RTS game I could ever get into (besides Outpost 2). The AI was weak, but the game was loads of fun. My kids loved it, too. If there's a sequel I'll be in line to check it out.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Majik Sznak]

I worked for a retail chain that sells games, CDs, and DVDs. I know for a fact that games are usually sold for $1 to $2 over cost. A game you buy for $69 CAD cost the retailer $67.

Some CDs and DVDs (and very occasionally games) are sold at or under cost when they have just come out.

The most markup I ever saw was for Mario Party 4: $69 retail, $65 cost.

I don't know who gets the profit and in what percentages, but the retailer gets far from half.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Anonymous Coward]

If there's a sequel [for Total Annihilation] I'll be in line to check it out.
Even if the sequel is done by a completely unknown Korean comapny?

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Tuxinatorium]

It's $25 if you buy it directly from 3drealms. I'm sure WorstBuy charged more for it.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Tuxinatorium]

That's a load of BS. The markups are much larger than that. Example: Warcraft3 is $59.99 at the local WorstBuy, but it's $27.99 with FREE FEDEX at newegg.com. That means Newegg is getting it for under $25, so WorstBuy's markup is around 150%

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[Tuxinatorium]

That's ridiculous. The total cost of all manufacturing, packaging, and distribution is less than $5 per copy if done with any shred of efficiency, so it doesn't make sense that the company that made the game would be getting any less than the wholesale price minus $10. And the wholesale price starts at about $30 and works its way down as the game gets older. So they're definitely getting $10-$15 per copy at a bare minimum. Why would anyone tolerate useless middlemen taking such a large share when they can get someone else to do it for cheaper? Your figures on only getting 20% of the wholesale price are ridiculous.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[ConceptJunkie]

That's what demos are for. Besides it sounds like it could be up to another year before it happens.

Re:Game-to-be-left-unmentioned

[KewlPC]

A guy I know who used to work at Fry's Electronics could buy anything in the store at 10% over cost (read: take whatever it cost Fry's Electronics to get it, and add 10%) because he was an employee. He'd often buy $40 cables for $5 or $6, which means that Fry's Electronics got them for even less than that. For the math-impaired, selling a $5 cable for $40 is an 800% markup! To make things worse, Fry's Electronics has the cheapest cables in my area (Worst Buy and CompUSA sell the same cables for $10 more than Fry's Electronics does).

On some things there is barely any markup at all (computers, 3D accelerator cards), on others the markup can be well over 100%. It depends on things like what kind of deal the publisher/distributor has with the store, what the wholesale cost of the item is (computers are expensive, so there can't be a huge markup or else they would be too expensive and nobody would buy them), etc.

I should become psychic

[Thatmushroom]

Wow, look at that, I was right!

Re:I should become psychic

[Chris_Stankowitz]

Wow, look at that, I was right!

Come on, even miss Cleo saw this comming.

segway

[Anonymous Coward]

They're still not shipping segways.

Amazon claims they're selling, but isn't releasing any numbers.

Wasn't this supposed to have changed every american city by now?

Re:segway

[Pay The Fuck Up!]

That's because people are too cheap to pay the $5K for them. Come on people, see the value in the segway!

Re:segway

[ackthpt]

Wasn't this supposed to have changed every american city by now?

Well, I dunno if they will be the last, but San Francisco has already moved to ban them from sidewalks.

Re:segway

[stak]

They use Segways at Disney World behind the scenes to travel distances that a single person might have used a golf cart to travel in the past.

Re:segway

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did San Francisco move to ban it? The Segway looks pretty gay to me, and it'll make the people 'riding' them look even gayer.

Re:segway

[Bastian]

Wasn't this supposed to have changed every american city by now?

Yeah. All the sidewalks are going to have to be widened so there's room for Segway riders, who will all put on about 300lbs from riding their Segways rather than walking anywhere.

Re:segway

[Accipiter]

Nonsense. I've seen a few scooting around in downtown Atlanta. Even the police are using them.

Re:segway

[palpatine]

Oh, please. Like anybody walks in America anymore.

Re:segway

[Bastian]

tell me about it. My friends whine and bitch when I refuse to drive to a diner that's only 4 blocks from home.

Re:segway

[verch]

Attention anyone who believed for one second this scooter would really revolutionize the world: I have a lovely bridge you might be interested in purchasing. I'll even throw in lots of stock in assorted .com companies as a bonus!

Re:segway

[sootman]

I was at EPCOT in Orlando on New Year's Eve and there were two salespeople (selling little flowers or glowing necklaces or whatever) on them. Pretty neat, but I didn't even bother to ask them if I could ride one. :-)

Re:segway

[Ioldanach]

Why did San Francisco move to ban it? The Segway looks pretty gay to me, and it'll make the people 'riding' them look even gayer.

Precisely why they needed to ban them. The Haight-Ashbury area wouldn't have room for the people who wanted to walk once they're crawling with these things.

Seriously, though, most CA cities tend to ban anything but feet from the sidewalks. Most of them ban skateboards and bicycles already, and probably those little razor scooters. This is just one more device to ban from the sidewalk, plus its motorized, an extra strike against it.

Shared frustration

[YetAnotherName]

Maybe there should be one of those annoying yet ubiquitous "under construction" animated GIFs on Oqo's website?

Regardless, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one waiting, perhaps in vain, for the Oqo. Like the author, I was more than ready to whip out any number of credit cards for one when it was first announced. If I were to get one now, it'd probably just be a remote control to my HTPC.

Re:Shared frustration

[sparrow_hawk]

From the Flash-applet-from-Hell dept... heh.

SPOILER...sort of.

[Chris_Stankowitz]

Don't read anymore if you havn't read the article.

I jusr love the fact that they are still not willing to scrap DNF.

I can here them chanting in the office now...."Keep hope alive"

for the article:

"In the end all that matters is the quality of the game," he continued. "So, lessons have been learned, and progress is being made, and we're working as quickly and quietly as we can. You're completely justified in calling us 'turtleware,' at the very least, but the release date is still 'when it's done.'"

They did in the article

[SamTheButcher]

What's the point of having a "countdown" article when you spoil #1 in #5 - "...in the same way we talk about Duke Nukem Whenever (the sarcastic nickname for Duke Nukem Forever; see below)."

Re:They did in the article

[GalionTheElf]

Surely if they say see below at #5 then it could be anything between #4 and #1.

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA

[DaBj]

Not to mention the fact that in the rest of the world we stopped those lame "In Soviet Russia" 'jokes' last year.

(Somehow I think the Offtopic mod was unfair, the humor in that "joke" is also vaporware....)

mostly

[SweetAndSourJesus]

Metroid Prime : exceptional gameplay
Super Mario Sunshine : exceptional gameplay

There are still fun games being released. Good gameplay isn't gone, it's just being drowned out by all the crap out there.

Of course they're the minority, like in anything. How many movies came out this year that were focused on viewer enjoyment rather than glitz and flash?

Re:mostly

[Osty]

Metroid Prime : exceptional gameplay

Metroid Prime: horrid control scheme

Super Mario Sunshine : exceptional gameplay

Sure, but it's nothing new. It's just Mario 64 with fancier graphics and a water gun. That doesn't mean it's not fun, just that it's nothing new.

Now, how about Splinter Cell? It has the graphics thing down cold (mmm ... real time dynamic lights and shadows, soft body physics ...), and the gameplay is new and interesting (okay, so it's not revolutionary either, being an evolutionary step from games like the Metal Gear series and previous Tom Clancy games).

Of course they're the minority, like in anything. How many movies came out this year that were focused on viewer enjoyment rather than glitz and flash?

Exactly. This is something that the retro guys always forget -- they're looking back through rose-colored glasses. For every Super Mario World, or Legend of Zelda, or original Metroid there were hundreds of stinkers, rip-offs, and copies. There were tons and tons of games with terrible gameplay and no redeeming qualities. But, because it's the past, we don't remember those. We only remember the good games. Same goes for movies and for music. The past wasn't any better than now, it's just that time has made you forget the horrendous crap that was released.

Re:mostly

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Sure, but it's nothing new. It's just Mario 64 with fancier graphics and a water gun. That doesn't mean it's not fun, just that it's nothing new."

Have you even played it? That's like saying: "Star Trek II? It's just Star Trek I with a villain and explosions."

Re:mostly

[Osty]

Have you even played it? That's like saying: "Star Trek II? It's just Star Trek I with a villain and explosions."

Yes, I've played it. I own it. The story is somewhat different, and there are some neat mini levels (with the acapella original SMB theme, sweet!), but overall there's very little to distinguish Super Mario Sunshine from Super Mario 64 -- it's the same damn thing, with flashier graphics, one or two new moves, and a water gun. As to your analogy, you're right -- Star Trek II is just Star TrekI with a villain and explosions. New story, same old stuff. To take your analogy farther, the Star Trek series of movies began to peter out after so many movies. Same for Mario.

Not that this is a bad thing in any way, just that previous Mario games have set the bar very high. From the original mario brothers, through Mario 64, each one was new and different. Super Mario Sunshine, while still a good game in its own right, just doesn't follow the trend. Then again, given what Nintendo has been doing, rehashing older Mario games on the GBA, it's really not a big surprise that they couldn't come up with something revolutionary for the GCN Mario.

Re:mostly

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Yes, I've played it. I own it. The story is somewhat different, and there are some neat mini levels (with the acapella original SMB theme, sweet!), but overall there's very little to distinguish Super Mario Sunshine from Super Mario 64 "

I would disagree. I'm not a Mario zealot by any means, but I was pleasantly surprised with this game. The addition of the watergun was no small feature. There's a lot more to that was added to that game as a result of the watergun than just another feature. It was another dimension of game play. I doubt I'll convince you of that in this post, but it really did make your mind shift gears to play. Though I will happily concede that Sunshine built from Mario 64's success, but the satisfaction from playing that game is significantly different from what you got from Mario 64.

"Super Mario Sunshine, while still a good game in its own right, just doesn't follow the trend..."

I'm sorry, I just don't agree. Think about what it takes to get through Mario Sunshine and then think about what it takes to get through Mario 64. Hopefully the differences will start to appear. It's kind of like comparing Super Mario 3 to the original Super Mario Bros. Still the same foundation, but a good deal of depth was added just by adding a few new rules to the game.

"Then again, given what Nintendo has been doing, rehashing older Mario games on the GBA..."

Sorry to be nitpicky here, but that's not a rehash. Sonic 1 to Sonic 2, that's a rehash. This is a port.

I'm not arguing with you just for the fun of it. I felt the same way you did when I first fired up Sunshine. It wasn't until I started getting deeper into the game that I realized there was quite a bit more to do in it. Would I describe it as revolutionary? Nope. I'm not saying it's that different. I do feel, though, that it stands very well. It makes me very curious what Zelda's going to be like...

Cheers.

Re:mostly

[(trb001)]

You indirectly highlight something that I've been saying for awhile and others seem to overlook...both of these games are for Nintendo systems. For great games, look no farther than Nintendo, they have the best (if silly looking and kinda quirky) game designs out there. From what I can tell, XBox and PS1/2 were only good for fighting games...Tekken mostly. I enjoyed the Final Fantasy series, but I don't think anything ever beat Dragon Warrior or FF1 on the 8-bit Nintendo.

I don't know why more people don't follow the Nintendo model...they've been spitting out quality games for almost 2 decades. To name a few (that have been mentioned many times before)...Castlevania, Mario anything, Metroid, Zelda anything, Contra. I *still* will play any of these for hours if given enough time without the gf around. They're wonderful and still hold my interest.

--trb

Re:mostly

[ConceptJunkie]

Gee, I seem to recall feeling the same way in the late 80's. So many Amiga games (my platform of choice at the time) had jaw-dropping graphics and no good game play, but there were still some great games.

Some things never change.

Re:mostly

[13Echo]

You've got it all wrong. Samus never really could strafe. So that's what happens to you after being 2D for 15 years. It's just hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Don't blame the developers.

But then again, I liked Prime's controls. ;)

Re:mostly

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like Sega did with the Dreamcast?

Oh wait, that didn't do so well.

(spoiler for #1 spot)

[phylus]

I have to hand it to 3D Realms, I have to respect a company that can focus on putting out a quality product no matter how late it may be. I know a lot of companies don't have the resources to do such a thing, at least 3D Realms does.

It's not like anyone's productivity has been hurt by not having this game available and I think the wait will finally be worth it as it will most likely be a killer product when it is finally released.

Also have to pat them on the back for having such a humorous attitude towards the whole situation.

Re:(spoiler for #1 spot)

[DaBj]

I have to hand it to 3D Realms, I have to respect a company that can focus on putting out a quality product no matter how late it may be. I know a lot of companies don't have the resources to do such a thing, at least 3D Realms does.

Yes, I used similar reasoning to comfort myself while waiting for Diekatana, and that game sure was worth the wait in the end...

Re:(spoiler for #1 spot)

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to wonder why they had to switch engines and start over several times. Wouldn't proper software engineering processes keep that from happening? They almost make it sound like they just throw a bunch of programmers in a room and have them start typing away without any kind of thought given to the big picture..

Re:(spoiler for #1 spot)

[Gabrill]

And thank you for playing Devil's advocate. I think I waited almost as long to get new Creative Labs drivers . . . ba-dum-bump.

Re:(spoiler for #1 spot)

[macrom]

If you want to applaud the efforts of a game development crew, then pick a team like id or Epic. These guys set internal release dates but tell the world that their games will be out "when they're done". They always seem to deliver a game in a timely manner, they always make good on the hype, and they both leave legacies for their products by crafting engines that other games are built upon. How those guys stay focused year after year and still manage to be on top is definitely book material. I would love to see a project management book by John Carmack and Tim Sweeney hit the shelves some day. These guys know how to get it done.

3D Realms, IMO, is living on their legacy created by Duke 3D. Granted they've spent some time helping other games get out the door (Max Payne, Duke titles for consoles, etc.), but I think someone above summed it up best : their outfit comes across more like a rich man's hobby. Were it not for the reputation of 3D Realms, I think you'd see Duke Forever getting the same treatment as Daikatana, Ion Storm and John Romero got a while back. If you think about it, there isn't much difference between the two except that Romero had a track record with a different company. Let's all hope that Duke 4 doesn't come out as flawed as Daikatana.

So now that I've said my piece, yeah, I think it's cool that 3DR can laugh about the progress made on their latest game. But I would prefer that they quit laughing and joking and actually ship something that even halfway meets the hype they've built. At least the hype has died down in the last year or two, giving them a much lower hype-target to hit!

Re:(spoiler for #1 spot)

[Anonymous Coward]

When it is released, it will be something that would have been a killer app when it was first announced. Unless they restarted from scratch enough times.

DNF - Engine switching

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it interesting that in George Broussard's response to DNF's award he mentions that the game has "switched engines a couple of times". I only ever heard about the engine switch from Quake II to Unreal way back in 1999 or so (not exactly sure, but it was quite early on).

Unless I missed another announcement, this indicates to me that they have probably switched to the newer Unreal engine tech at some point. If true, that's a huge relief since any game coming out now using the original Unreal (or UT) engine will look _very_ dated.

Re:Repeat submission

[enos]

That was the vote. These are the results.

Re:Repeat submission

[Anonymous Coward]

next time look before you post... read the comment on the article you linked to it says (now read with me) VOTE FOR VAPORWARE 2002. This article was the RESULTS of the vote. Yes little man think before you type.

Re:Repeat submission

[Anonymous Coward]

You're so clever aren't you. The first story was about the nominations, the second (today's) is about the final results. Not the same story. Not the same submission. This does not make you a better person. People do not think more of you because of this. Women will not instinctively flock to you like the salmon of Capistrano. Your life did not suddenly acquire any deep meaning. Strangers will not ask for your autograph. No one will hang on your every word. Women will not hold up their babies to you in the faint hope that their mere proximity to you will grant them finer lives.

Of course, perhaps I'm just in a bad mood.

Re:D00000000P!

[EvanED]

Have to point out... the [Wired] article is dated Jan 2. Can't be a dupe. Sure, we've had very, very similar stories before, but seeing as the article in question was posted today, it can't really be a dupe.

Re:Repeat submission

[Istealmymusic]

Of course, perhaps you've just been trolled. HAND.

The obvious reason for vaporware games

[wackybrit]

I started helping on an open source project called Project Armageddon in 1996. It became a massive thing, with about 50 guys working, artists, programmers, the works. It was due for release in 1998. It still hasn't been released..

Why? Because technology moves too quickly and your game looks old fast. If you write a game with a target for release in two years, you write for the highest end kit, make sure your engine scales, and hope for the best. But what if when two years have passed, you need another year to finish the title? Your title immediately looks old!

What if Red Alert 2 ran a year late? It'd look like an old clunky piece of crap. Okay, it's still an excellent game, but it was more cutting edge in 2000 than it possibly could be in 2001.

So, when titles run even just a year late, the developers have to rush and scramble to make their graphics engine look up to date.. but that introduces new bugs, so they become even more delayed.. then they need to upgrade the engine AGAIN, and repeat ad nauseum.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[geek]

For 3D Realms your argument doesnt apply, they didn't write the engine, someone else did ages ago.

There is no excuse for being this late.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[bahwi]

Our game was looking pretty crappy a few years back. They had just released a new version of the Diku engine. Well, needless to say, we were pretty screwed. It tooks up two months to convert all those damn files to the new format. Not to mention the graphics! They were black and white single color text. Luckily one of our guys new how to take advantage of the new ANSI colorFX chip in the Diku engine. Everything was upgraded, but truth be told we weren't using the PKill2D features nor the DirectCast features. But we were using the latest and greatest Diku dFORCE text-rendering library. Along with the best DRUID compiler.

(Yeah, I know, I've done better, but hey, I gave it a shot.)

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[Anonymous Coward]

It says in the article that for DN4, they rewrote the engine a couple of times. And the game.

Sowwy.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[geek]

No they are using the Unreal engine, RTFA

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[GlassHeart]

technology moves too quickly and your game looks old fast.

So find another niche to play in. Actually invent a new game, and it will look new.

But what if when two years have passed, you need another year to finish the title?

This sounds cruel, because the market is cruel, but your product then deserves to die. Schedule estimates off by 50% are rarely survivable.

Please don't think I'm attacking you or your project, or that I'm saying I can somehow do better. I'm just saying that when trapped in a rat race with otherwise identical competitors, you must either do the job better than anybody else or create a new job entirely.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[SirCrashALot]

They said the rewrote the enginge a couple of times.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[rebelcool]

They started with the quakeII engine, IIRC.

Then switched to unreal.

They also likely rewrote the unreal engine to add in features they wanted. As the article says, they rewrote the engine more than once.

Of course now the unreal engine is obsolete, so they likely need a new engine.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[robson]

So, when titles run even just a year late, the developers have to rush and scramble to make their graphics engine look up to date.. but that introduces new bugs, so they become even more delayed.. then they need to upgrade the engine AGAIN, and repeat ad nauseum.

All the more reason to bank on good game-play rather than flashy graphics from the beginning. This, along with the growing installed base, is one of the things that draws developers to the Game Boy Advance. It's just a raw art and design problem. You aren't going to get engineers finding clever new ways to exploit the hardware (at least, not like you would on a PC or even a modern console.)

If it's cutting-edge technology that's driving your game, as the parent post suggested, you've got the ticking of the technology clock constantly reminding you that you'd better hurry up, better cut those design corners, better add that new feature you saw at E3...

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[alphaseven]

technology moves too quickly and your game looks old fast.

You know, I wish developers would worry less about how many polygons they can push and put together a good storyline and give me stuff to do besides kill everything/find the switch.

Half-Life is a good example of a game that came out late and sold well even though there were better looking games around. People still play it for the great storyline and creative gameplay.

Good gameplay will compensate for old-looking graphics every time.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[wackybrit]

Oops, I should have made it clear I left the project in 1997 ;-)

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[Chester K]

Why? Because technology moves too quickly and your game looks old fast.

Sorry, but that's a cop-out reason. Other developers manage to get their products out on time, and with high-tech graphics to boot. There's no reason a team of 50 can't get a game out in under 5 years, even if they are all volunteers. There's even less of an excuse for a professional development team.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[Anonymous Coward]

> What if Red Alert 2 ran a year late? It'd look like an old clunky piece of crap.

It was a clucky piece of crap.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[Anonymous DWord]

It's ok, they can just wait until Doom 3 comes out, and use that one (with some minor tweaks).

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[dubious9]

Damn straight. I say pick a engine, stick with it. There are games that are ten years old that I would still consider to be beautiful. Better AI, level design, richer textures, game play balance is what they should be working on.

Is there any reason you shouldn't be able to decide on a engine, and then run with it? Think Jedi Knight 2, it wasn't the best technologically speaking but they put enought effort into the art to make it look damn good. Hell, Quake still looks good. Christ, look how many people even play bzflag!!

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[BWJones]

Good gameplay will compensate for old-looking graphics every time.

Marathon for the Macintosh (Bungie) was another example of this. There were ultimately three versions of Marathon all based on the same game engine and were based on a decent story line. Yeah, Quake had better technology including graphics and moves, but Marathon had the storyline making it much more playable than Quake in single player mode. And even the game art gave the multiplayer mode an atmosphere unmatched in other games for years.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[KewlPC]

Nobody licenses an engine, only to rewrite it. Many companies license a game engine and then make tweaks and additions, but none license something just so they can rewrite it.

Also, like with id Software engines, when you license the Unreal engine, you get access to the updates. 3D Realms may decide not to use them, but they have access to them.

And before you say anything else stupid, the Unreal engine isn't obsolete. Unreal Tournament used it (there is NO Unreal Tournament engine; it's just a much later build of the Unreal engine than the version that shipped with the game Unreal), Unreal Tournament 2003 used it too IIRC.

You see, instead of writing a new engine from scratch for every game, Epic built a solid foundation (the Unreal engine) which they could easily update to include the latest graphic technology. All they do is keep updating the same engine, adding stuff to take advantage of newer graphics cards and faster CPUs.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[KewlPC]

You have to be smart about which engine you pick. Smart developers pick an engine which can be easily updated.

That is why id Software engines are so popular. For example, by licensing the Quake III engine, you get access to all updates to it for something like a year. Then all you need is a few programmers to write the non-engine code for your game, modify the engine to suit your needs, integrate the latest engine versions, etc.

Epic has been doing this with their own engine for years. Unreal, Unreal Tournament, Unreal Tournament 2003, all used THE SAME ENGINE. The only difference was that UT used a later build than Unreal, and UT 2003 used a later build than UT. Whats more, anybody who licenses the Unreal engine gets access to the latest build. So anybody who made an Unreal-engine game around the time of UT was using the same engine as UT, and anyone who makes an Unreal-engine game now would be using the same engine as Unreal Tournament 2003.

Therefore, theoretically, Duke Nukem Forever could have fairly decent graphics, assuming they updated their version of the Unreal engine to the latest build.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[gl4ss]

3drealms did the whole shit again couple of times, starting from white table..

in essence they could have been wanking for 3 years and nobody would notice.. .. since all that went into it got trashed.

gee.. that would really motivate me to WORK HARD.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a clucky piece of crap.

But at least it wasn't an OLD chucky piece of crap... Although now it is. :)

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[Lumpy]

are you on drugs?

red alert -1 and even C&C the origional look 100% perfect compared to anything today..

hell you want another example? look at parsec.. it still isnt released and has been in devel for over 3 years now.. Looks and sounds better than anything that you can buy right now.

if your product is crap to begin with, then yes, you are right... if you are designing something really good, time doesnt matter.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[MoneyT]

Or check out the ambrosia game Avara which still has a large following and online comunity. Actualy, the low level graphics is probably one of the things that keeps it alive becasue anyone can create a new level with just a basic paint program.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[nege]

Who cares about old graphics?? I am STILL addicted to the sims. Isnt that like, 3 years old? I know...this is shameful.

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[HD Webdev]

A classic (lighthearted) timeline for a game:

Ion Storm Announces "Daikatana Year" For Final Twelve Months Of Development
Long-awaited game to reach store shelves soon

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[HD Webdev]

Half-Life is an EXCELLENT example. It's not new or visually up to date.

The dynamic statistics page below shows how new Quake & Unreal type graphical eye-candy isn't the most important thing about having a successful game.

A few numbers from the link below:

113,856 Half-Life players
5091 Unreal Tournament players
6171 Quake3 players

Online Half-Life players outnumber Quake3 / MOHAA / Unreal / etc... COMBINED

Re:The obvious reason for vaporware games

[intermodal]

how is that insightful? just because a bunch of guys don't have enough spare time to do what professional game developers do full time (and often overtime) they're lazy bastards? be grateful for what people do, and respect those who try.

Duke Nukem Never

[Angry Black Man]

Duke Nukem Forever started out on the Quake II engine. When that became outdated, they rewrote it for the Unreal engine. That was the last I ever heard ANY news on the game.

They're going to have to write it again for the new Unreal engine, and then when they're done with that, they'll have to redo it again for the Doom 3 engine.

It's a vicious cycle. Bets that this game won't see the light of day?

Re:Duke Nukem Never

[macdaddy357]

What now? I was just playing Duke Nukem Forever. I got it on a warez site. It Rocks!!! The graphics are amazing, and Duke has a lot of cool new phrases like, "Suck Deez Nutz, Bubba," "How ya like dem apples, Beyotch!" and ...

Re:Duke Nukem Never

[nakedbonzai]

I've read in numerous articles the the unreal engine is modular. That is, once a new unreal engine comes out, they can easily replace it with the old one. Perhaps the people who are making duke nukem forever were relying on this as a backup plan, just in case their game took 5 years to develop. It might just pay off!

As (I believe) Nintendo once said

[grahamwest]

A late game is only late until it's released. A bad game will be bad forever. How many people remember when Super Mario 64 was supposed to be released vs when it actually shipped?

In any case if you're going to put "Forever" in your game's title you have to expect a certain amount of jokes about it.

Re:As (I believe) Nintendo once said

[Drakula]

Beware of the Diakatana Syndrome(TM).

It took forever.

It sucked.

No guarantee it will be good just because it takes a long time to make.

Re:As (I believe) Nintendo once said

[ajf442]

If I remember correctly, Super Mario 64 shipped when the N64 shipped...it was one of the first games, if not THE first game for the N64.

Maybe you were thinking of The Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of Time? That was known about early on (1996 or so), and shipped in 1998.

It was worth the wait though.

Re:As (I believe) Nintendo once said

[muzzmac]

Pfff. What's the bet if 3D Realms do ever release this it will be a stinker.

The non-business like attitude has to show through in the game.

Re:As (I believe) Nintendo once said

[Frizzle Fry]

If I remember correctly, Super Mario 64 shipped when the N64 shipped

Yes, but the N64 took a long time to ship, and I believe that it was because the software for it wasn't ready. The fact that Nintendo released it so late meant that it was never able to catch up to Playstation in terms of units sold, but many of us truly appreciated that they took the time to make it (and Mario 64) so great, rather than rushing it out the door like another company would have done.

Re:As (I believe) Nintendo once said

[Phil Wilkins]

Business sense and gameplay are orthogonal. Business sense and getting the damn thing released, on the other hand, aren't.

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA

[geekoid]

In Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia Jokes you...wait

Don't tell me, don't tell me...

[Pseudonym]

It's Daikatana, right?

Re:Don't tell me, don't tell me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, Daikatana came out, it's in bargain bins by now, making it a non-vapourware product.

Re:Don't tell me, don't tell me...

[Dissonant]

Uh, Daikatana came out, it's in bargain bins by now, making it a non-vapourware product.

You're so smart.

Re:Ooh ooh! Me too!

[dagar17]

if your system is unstable its most likely due to your own misconfiguration or the software your using. Not the processor

(Meta) Make it a Slashback

[yerricde]

The nominations were posted, these are the results of the votes.

Some ACs are of the opinion that if a follow-up article is not in topic "Slashback", then it's a dupe.

Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[xchino]

Persoanlly I'm glad Duke Nukem has been taking forever. I know this company has the ability to make a great game, and that they WANT to make a great game. Taking their time to do it right means alot to the overall gameplay. Even the best game ideas can be slaughtered by lack of attention to details.
They've updated the engine a few times and started over a few times.
Any coders out there know that sometimes intense modification or starting over is just what has to be done to make your program what you want. Or you could take the easy route and compromise your program concept to account for a mistake. A poor analogy would be that this is like shoveling all the crap in your roomunder the bed instead of cleaning up.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry the "they are taking a long time to get it right" doesn't really wash in gaming.

Any game that takes more than 4 years generally sucks by the time it's actually released. Nothing can live up to 4 years of hype, especially a game with a 4 year old engine thats been hacked countless time to not look totally ancient...

I have a feeling Duke Nukem will be a big disappointment and rather sucky. Of course the hardcore fans won't admit and it, but it will probably be rather shitty.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Anonymous Coward]

You are wrong.

Never, EVER re-write your app. Netscape was rewritten and look what happened. Wordperfect was rewriteen and look what happened.
Microsoft NEVER rewrote Office... Office XP is still built off Office 95

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[GlassHeart]

Any coders out there know that sometimes intense modification or starting over is just what has to be done to make your program what you want.

Yes, in many cases a rewrite is better than reuse. However, you do not discover major faults in your code that require a rewrite (much less "a few times") in the middle of development. To do so indicates that your team does not understand the code base it was to reuse, or did not understand the requirements. Either form of incompetence rightfully results in failure, especially in a cutthroat market like games.

Also, "started over a few times" does not say "taking time to do it right" to me. It says they don't know how to do it right, and are just fumbling in the dark.

Note that I am not familiar with their actual development practices, so I am assuming your description is accurate, and basing my comments on that.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Anonymous Hack]

Am i missing something here? Am i the only one who wasn't all that excited about Duke Nukem 3D? Yeah it wasn't a BAD game per se, but i don't recall it ever being a Doom-killer or even a Quake-killer. Was it really cool in multiplayer mode or something? I only played it in singleplayer. To me it didn't seem to have the fun factor that the original platformers did.

Why is everyone so desperate for Duke Nukem Forever? I can understand nail-biting for Doom 3 and Counter-Strike: Condition Zero, but the previous incarnations of those games were hugely popular. Duke Nukem 3D - as far as i remember - wasn't at all.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[mandolin]

Netscape was rewritten and look what happened

What the hell is wrong w/Mozilla? Other than that it did in fact take 4.something years to do .. that's a heck of a sacrifice.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Chairboy]

The problem is that Netscape went from 85%+ marketshare to single digits.

Mozilla itself is fine. The consequences of the delay, however, are not.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Erik Hollensbe]

Duke 3d had something that very few games (and certainly nothing from iD has ever produced) had:

panache.

Duke 3d was funny, the game play was excellent, the weapons had originality.

There have been a few games out there that have this combo, but none of them are fun in multiplayer as well. :)

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[HillBilly]

I couldn't care any less about this game. The developers need to decide whats in the project and freeze it at that.

What they decided what would be in the game four years ago is out of date. Right now they are probably playing catch up, and removing orginal features to implement new ones.

The game should have been released years ago. We could be up to Duke Nuken 5 or 6 now.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Anonymous DWord]

Duke3D ruled in multiplayer. The laser trip bomb is one of the greatest weapons ever.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Anonymous Hack]

You know i was just going to say the funniest FPS i ever played (in multiplayer mode too) was Rise of the Triad and then i realized it was by the same guys. Duke3D didn't really "click" with me, though, but everyone who knows me knows i'm a humorless bastard. I kill guards in Half-Life for a pistol clip :->

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[dubious9]

Mod parent up. Unless your requirements change you shouldn't have to do a redesign. They should have stuck with the quake II engine and invested more into quality design and artwork.

If they really wanted to do a game with the unreal engine, I'd say put it off until Duke Nukem Forever and Ever.

Technology does not a good game make.
Quality artwork is better.
Quality AI is better than artwork.
Quality game play is supreme.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget a little thing called "Internet Explorer" that came with every single new computer sold in the world for the last four years. as much as netscape slit it's own throat by taking 4+ years to release mozilla, microsoft killed them too.

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[KewlPC]

All the funny lines from Duke Nukem 3D were stolen.

"It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum. And I'm all out of bubblegum."
-Duke Nukem 3D

"I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum. And I'm all out of bubblegum."
-They Live (a John Carpenter movie starring Roddy Piper and that black guy from Platoon), release in 1988

A great many also came from the Evil Dead movies, and sounded much cooler when spoken by Bruce Campbell. I guess that's what happens when you get a radio DJ to do the lines for your game.

What's worse, George Broussard said in a magazine interview that all the sayings and such in Duke Nukem 3D and Duke Nukem Forever were original. In the same article, there were screenshots from DNF where Duke Nukem loses his hand and puts a chainsaw in its place (a la the Evil Dead movies). Message for Mr. Broussard: open mouth wider and insert other foot...

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[rtscts]

Duke 3d had something that very few games (and certainly nothing from iD has ever produced) had:

Colour. As in NOT FUCKING BROWN

Re:Glad Duke Nukem is taking forever..

[Anonymous Coward]

For those that remember when 3D Realms released LameDuke, an early beta of Duke3D, you can appreciate that they are putting time into this. LameDuke... just..... SUCKED. There were some cool concepts (laser sight on the 9mm) but the gameplay was enough to make E.T. for the 2600 look like the epitome in great gameplay. I'm glad they took the time to rethink that game and make it into Duke3D, which was one of my favorite games at the time.

an omission

[Fict]

the most obvious omission to this list was intel's 512-bit entry into the high-end graphics card market, the "i0ta", aka the i920. Preliminary benchmarks on their prototype with UNOPTIMIZED drivers allegedly yielded over 250 fps in quake3 @ 1600x1200 32-bit color, as indicated by the now-infamous memo leaked about 2 months ago.

according to the memo, the chip cost less than $50 / 100 units. the release has been pushed back from q4 2002 to q3 2003 due to recent lay-offs.

of course, by then ati will already have surpassed them in terms of price and performance.

Re:an omission

[shogun]

That memo is 404'd, care to throw us a better link?

Re:an omission

[Afrosheen]

And, of course by then, Nvidia's chip with similar or better abilities will destroy ATI yet again simply by having better drivers.

I really feel sorry for ATI and people that buy their products. They make good hardware but their drivers are always crap. Is it so hard to make good software to complement your hardware?

Not this tired argument again.

[Anonymous Coward]

The oh so hoary "games were better back in the day" crap. Well Mister, I played games back in the day", I can can tell you, there were some pretty bad ones. Want a list? OK, here's a list, ET for Atari 2600, Rise of the Robots for Playstation, PacMan for Atari...ad nauseum.

Thngs weren't as rosy in the past.

Re:Not this tired argument again.

[wheany]

Exactly. If you want further proof, go and download a 8-bit Nintendo emulator and EVERY game you can find for it. Not just the games you remember are good, but all games. Then start playing. You will quickly see that even in the days of yore, 90% of everything was shit.

Quark

[GigsVT]

The OSX/Quark problem affects much more than "graphics enthusiasts" as they put it. Working at a prepress company as I do, it's a very real problem. I don't know why a "graphics enthusiast" would get Quark anyway, when I think of that I think of people like the Digital Blasphemy guy, not assembling postscript documents in Quark.

Re:Quark

[WatertonMan]

It has really hurt Apple though, which in turn affects many other things. A lot of people think that the two things holding Apple back from large increases in market share were no Quark for OSX (and a crappy version 5) and then Motorola's falling down on the G5. (Which, now that Motorola cancelled it, would get a vote from me for vaporware - however the cancelation sort of neglegates a true "vapor" label)

Here's hoping IBM delivers the 970 soon and that Quark won't release something as bad as I think they will. Not because I'll use Quark, but I know how the "trickle down" effect works. By the same reasoning I didn't own Global Crossing or Enron stock, but their screw ups affected me nonetheless.

Re:Quark

[snork54]

Well I work for a mid sized media company and our IT dept. said no new Macs. The layout people went bazerk as did some of the artists but when it came down to it Quark runs on the PC. Our prepress is all PC now, RR Donley is very PC. Why the Macs? The PC's work just as well if not better & faster for what were doing. Now Quark being customer hostile! Oh god! Those a**holes need to be bought by Adobe or Macromedia and brought into the fold real quick. In all my years in publishing I have never heard of such crap. We used to do a lot of multimedia work with a program called mTropolis which Quark bought and then killed. Asked why and they outright lie and say "customers didn't like it!" WTF! Macromedia would have been a better fit. Then don't get me started with the problems with serial numbers and site liecense. God if I could only get everyone in the company to come to Adobe InDesign.

Re:Quark

[artemis67]

Switching to PC is not an easy answer, either. For most Creative departments, they have huge libraries of Mac-only fonts that have to be converted or repurchased, not to mention investments in other supporting software like Photoshop, Illustrator, and whatnot.

Sounds to me like some bean counter high-up was just looking for an excuse to convert to PC.

Re:Quark

[artemis67]

It has hurt Apple in the short-run; in the long-run, it may strengthen Apple. As the article pointed out, Quark's failure to deliver has done more for InDesign sales than anyone in Adobe's marketing department, and Apple, themselves, jumped into the fray by giving away InDesign with new systems in a promotion last year.

It's bad for Apple to be hostage to one company, and especially one as inept as Quark. Giving InDesign equal parity in the marketplace with QXP is one of the best things that can happen for Apple, and may even be good for Quark. Quark was a LOT more responsive in the early 90's when they were competing with PageMaker. Once PageMaker was vanquished, Quark lost their drive to update and innovate.

Re:Quark

[WatertonMan]

How is that better for Apple in the long term? If you are switching to InDesign, then that is one more reason why you can switch to Windows. After all it does run on both systems. If you are going to have to make such a big switch, then why not go for Windows as part of the switch? The problem of fonts and so forth is admittedly an argument against it. However Motorola's dropping the ball on the G5 and the wait for the 970 is an argument for Windows.

Even though I use XP every day, I think that OSX is the best operating system out there. (With admittedly some rough edges, especially in the Finder and Project Builder) However the reasons to switch aren't as strong as Apple needs, mainly due to killer apps and hardware speeds.

Re:Quark

[artemis67]

Well, two points. One, QuarkXPress for Windows has been available for a long time, so it's not necessarily the software that is holding people back from switching.

Secondly, Mac users, particularly in the creative arts, tend to be fiercely loyal to their platform, so having to abandon QXP doesn't mean an automatic switch to Windows.

In fact, it seems like most people who use QXP love the program but hate the company. They're feeling jerked around by Quark, but can't switch because InDesign doesn't have enough market penetration yet. If the printer you send all of your work to doesn't have InDesign yet, then you probably aren't going to use it either; the flipside is that, if the printer isn't receiving InDesign files, then they aren't going to buy a copy, so there's a very real chicken-and-egg problem.

Gotta toot my own horn, here...

[phillymjs]

When the request for nominations went out, I posted my nomination, QuarkXPress for OS X, in the previous /. discussion, and also submitted it to Wired.

Lo and behold, not only is it #7 on the list, but they quoted me in the article!

To quote Bart Simpson, "There's only one thing to do at a moment like this: strut!" <cues up "Stayin' Alive">

~Philly

Re:Gotta toot my own horn, here...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your parents must be so proud.

Re:Gotta toot my own horn, here...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm the first comment posted under Duke Nukem Forever.

duke

[blisspix]

duke nukem may still be dust, but you can get DN: Manhattan Project as temporary filler. Runs on the old engine and plays as Duke should.

Re:duke

[Anonymous Coward]

Pfft... That's not the old engine. Looking through Duke's eyes (*1st* person shooter) is the old engine. That's more like the PS1 engine.

Don't worry, no deadlines

[MeanMF]

"What can I say? We're undeniably late and we know it. We've switched engines a couple of times, and we've started over a couple of times....In the end all that matters is the quality of the game"

So he's saying that if you released a great ground-breaking game a few years after it's great and ground-breaking, that's still ok.. Sign me up! I'd love to work for a company like that. Until they run out of money, that is.

Re:Don't worry, no deadlines

[macshit]

"In the end all that matters is the quality of the game"

So he's saying that if you released a great ground-breaking game a few years after it's great and ground-breaking, that's still ok.

Um, a game doesn't have to be `ground-breaking' to be good, it just has to be good. See the GBA for countless proofs of this.

Indeed, sometimes companies forget this, and fixate on `ground-breaking' at the expense of `good' (I think the FF movie is an example :-)

[hmmm, maybe having switched engines so many times is evidence that DNF is making the same mistake...]

Re:Don't worry, no deadlines

[scrytch]

Atari released a ground-breaking game too. Broke a lot of ground to bury all those millions of E.T. cartridges in the landfill, sure did...

Gotta' admire that gumption...

[Anonymous Coward]

"In the end all that matters is the quality of the game," he continued. "So, lessons have been learned, and progress is being made, and we're working as quickly and quietly as we can. You're completely justified in calling us 'turtleware,' at the very least, but the release date is still 'when it's done.'"

We need more of this in the world.

Re:Slashdot and banning...

[AnimeFreak]

BTW, append ":9000" to the hostname if the URL doesn't work.

Dated != not fun

[yerricde]

If true, that's a huge relief since any game coming out now using the original Unreal (or UT) engine will look _very_ dated.

*GWOE (Games With Older Engines) is not dying

Pac-Man is dated. Pac-Man is still fun. Therefore, in some cases, dated is still fun. Namco still sells copies of Pac-Man on Game Boy Advance. Therefore, in some cases, dated sells. This correlates with the fact that games that remain fun continue to sell.

However, notice that in auto racing, "DNF" stands for "Did Not Finish".

Re:Dated != not fun

[SomeOtherGuy]

Cool post. You hit the nail on the head. Gameplay and fun have nothing to do with how many polygons can be displayed -- and how fast. Would Pacman have sold any more copies if he had fur that looked like it was blowing in the wind?

I for one would love to be able to purchase some (new) games that had the same hardware specs as WC2 and Red Alert.....That way I could play them on whatever computer in my house that I wanted -- all the way from the Petium 133 laptop in the bathroom, the kids Cyrix 200, or my "new" Duron 700 screamer.....The perfect compromise between fun and quality...on a budget.

Re:Dated != not fun

[Zorton]

My sentiments exactly. I can't tell you how many times we have had a LAN party where the game being played was quite dated. Heck I even went so far as to order another copy of TA because my friend who wanted to play it couldn't find his CD.

The problem with the latest greatest game is that is requires the latest greatest hardware. Not to mention the cost of the game is high.

Plus there is the problem gameplay, like another post pointed out games like Pacman are still popular while I have trouble keeping interested in teh latest real time because of simple flaws in the interface.

To quote fight club "I say let's deevolve, let the chips fall where they may". Screw the thousand gibs, the blowing wind on the open field and all the other eye candys and give me a game with the complexity and maturity of empire. Or how bout one that improves on the gameplay and tweeks problems with the UI? Or even better a game that could be played on older hardware and would scale properly on new hardware. That way the guy with the neon bulbs in his case and twelve cooling fans on his graphix card could host for everyone running on their trusty old laptops.

But then again, I'm just a guy with a computer and a few bytes to send.

Re:Dated != not fun

[KewlPC]

Like with all id Software engines, when you license the Unreal engine, you get access to all updates. So, while they may not use them, they certainly have (or had, if they switched engines AGAIN) access to the latest stuff that the Unreal engine can produce.

And before anybody says anything stupid, there is no such thing as the Unreal Tournament engine. UT used the Unreal engine, albeit a much later build than the game Unreal.

rrriiiiight

[Anonymous Coward]

nice attempt at a cover-up there

face it, you tried to look like mr. smarty and ended up looking like mr. dipshit.

Re:rrriiiiight

[Istealmymusic]

Can I be your bridge under troubled waters?

How do you explain Daikatana?

[Osty]

Well? Daikatana took what, 4 years? 5 years? And when it was released, it was crap. It was also very, very buggy. And the gameplay sucked. As far as I'm concerned, there's not a good track record for games taking a long time and ending up good (maybe Halo, but it took longer because it changed platforms).

Re:How do you explain Daikatana?

[WatertonMan]

While Halo changed platforms, most of the code remained the same. I believe it was more the low level stuff that needed modified or optimized for the XBox that was different. But that isnt't *that* big a deal. (Or shouldn't be, depending on what MS' tools are like)

Speaking of which, the Mac "port" is supposed to be out shortly. I have an XBox I do most of my gaming on though. And Halo2 is definitely coming out soon. Still, it is cool.

Re:How do you explain Daikatana?

[gladbach]

errr. you forget the original Half-life. They started over, delayed many many times. and Half-life ended up being one of teh best games of all time according to many. Unfortunately, valve has continued their trend of pushing back their new titles, but on the flip side of that, valve is still making money w/ HL/cs/soon dod/steam etc. so they *are* showing fruits for their labor. DN 3d owned. I have faith that when they do release a game, it will be good. revolutionary, who knows, but still probably pretty good. Valve's next game? Im sure it will be pretty damn good as well. kev

Re:How do you explain Daikatana?

[Osty]

While Halo changed platforms, most of the code remained the same. I believe it was more the low level stuff that needed modified or optimized for the XBox that was different. But that isnt't *that* big a deal. (Or shouldn't be, depending on what MS' tools are like)

I really think you're simplifying things. If there weren't much that was changed, then the PC port would have been out already (it's over a year since Halo launched on the XBox, with the PC version expected this coming summer, or a year and a half after the XBox launch).

Oh, and Halo2 is only coming out "soon" if you consider "in a year" to be soon. It's scheduled for Christmas 2003.

Re:How do you explain Daikatana?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

NoPopIE [daishar.com]....

At first glance of the sig I saw NoPoopie... housebreaking tools on Slashdot? Click Here! to rid your kid of those pesky diapers?

Re:How do you explain Daikatana?

[plumby]

I thought the delay to non-XBox versions was due to Microsoft giving large amounts of money to them so that it would be an exclusive on XBox for a good period of time.

Re:How do you explain Daikatana?

[Hast]

They also have to do new network code (The XBox version is only playable over low latency LAN). And they are supposedly redisigning some of the later levels. Because they are a bit too flat for mouse+keyboard use.

What exactly is "vaporware"?

[TomHandy]

My understanding was always that vaporware was specifically supposed to refer to products that are claimed to exist, and perhaps even exist in some basic stage of development, but are essentially non-existent in any practical term, despite the company's claims it is coming. The reason I ask is that it seems unusual to list products like the GeForce FX as "vaporware", just as it seems odd to list other products that are merely delayed but clearly do exist realistically. So, has the definition of vaporware changed to refer to anything that gets delayed, whether or not it exists....or has my understanding of what constitutes vaporware always been incorrect? -Tom

Re: What exactly is "vaporware"?

[Black Parrot]

> My understanding was...

Mine too. But like lots of terms, this one is splitting into a "strong" definition and a "weak" definition.

vaporware, n. (strong definition) - A non-existant product that a company hypes in order to forestall customers who might buy a competitor's product. Vaporware is sometimes marketed by presentations of prototypes and/or rigged demos.

vaporware, n. (weak definition) - A product under development that is getting lots of buzz but seems to be having trouble getting to the market.

See also the entry at Wikipedia.

(Heh. Too bad I didn't see this story earlier. The Wikipedia page now shows that it has been visited 56 times, and if I had posted the link when this story was new we could have gotten a quantitative measurement of the Slashdot effect.)

Re: What exactly is "vaporware"?

[TomHandy]

Thanks, this makes a lot more sense, and clears up why I've always been confused when some products get referred to as vaporware that never seemed like vaporware to me. And that's a good point.....I recall that one of the big points of vaporware specifically was to announce it to make customers think it was coming, and promise it was coming, in order to make sure the customers didn't spend money on some competing product even if it was out there and available.

-Tom

It's pretty cut and dried...

[phillymjs]

...if you can't walk into a store and pick it off a shelf, or otherwise acquire it, it is vaporware.

Companies can demo it and say it's 'almost ready' all they want, but until you can get product in exchange for payment, it's vaporware.

~Philly

Re:It's pretty cut and dried...

[TomHandy]

Just seems kind of bizarre to me......what is really vaporous about it just if it isn't yet available for commercial sale? I always thought the vapor in vaporware referred to it being non-existent, not just not available for sale.

-Tom

Re:It's pretty cut and dried...

[freeweed]

...if you can't walk into a store and pick it off a shelf, or otherwise acquire it, it is vaporware.

You mean like the Mona lisa?

The Eiffel Tower?

How about the Giza pyramids?

Re:It's pretty cut and dried...

[Have Blue]

Feel free to walk into the Louvre and buy the Mona Lisa. I somehow doubt you could afford it, though.

Re:It's pretty cut and dried...

[LMariachi]

The Jargon File would seem to disagree.

You can't buy Unreal II or a 4GHz Pentium either, but they're not "vaporware" because no one expects them to be out yet.

Re:It's pretty cut and dried...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Yes, but those items aren't exactly for sale. So I don't think they should count.

Re: It's pretty cut and dried...

[Black Parrot]

> > ...if you can't walk into a store and pick it off a shelf, or otherwise acquire it, it is vaporware.

> You mean like the Mona lisa?

> The Eiffel Tower?

> How about the Giza pyramids?

Try a big city department store, Hayseed!

Re:It's pretty cut and dried...

[damiam]

Given enough money, I'm sure you could buy any of those.

Re:It's pretty cut and dried...

[swb]

I think the previous poster meant vaporware as things that exist only at the design-sketch level but are talked about as if an actual functioning prototype existed and there were actual manufacturing and distribution plans.

Think of the Western Electric Videophone we all saw in "How Does The Phone System Work" films in elementary school (for me, circa 1977). They showed it actually working in the film, meaning they built a few that actually worked. You couldn't buy it and I'm sure that if you asked if it would be available in the next year Bell System people would have said "No".

You'd call this vaporware, but I think the previous poster wouldn't since it was actually designed, tested, built and demonstrated. You just couldn't buy one.

With software the line blurs a little or a lot because I can write 10 lines of code that prints the startup banner to a new game/kernel/application and call it a "an early prototype" and demo it and but never have any plans to finish/sell a final version. It fits both definitions of vaporware to an extent, since, well, there is a "thing" that does "something" but at the same time it doesn't *really* exist and there are no plans to finish it.

Wait

[Adam9]

Before you start torching Rob's house and all of the /. servers, do you think that someone else on your subnet could be responsible for this? Sure, you did it a few days later, but perhaps it's an ongoing problem. Try emailing moderation@ and see what they say before you burn through some karma.

Re:Wait

[Anonymous Coward]

He said he can post from one account but not another, on the same machine. If this is true it means that the Slashdot message about banning by IP is untrue, as they would actually be banning by account.

Re:Slashdot and banning...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you must be really new here.

prime's control setup

[SweetAndSourJesus]

I've heard that a lot. The thing is, there really isn't any other way to do it. It's an odd meeting of a funky set of commands with a funky controller.

It kind of sucks, yeah, but I don't think they could have done it better.

Re:prime's control setup

[Yorrike]

Anyone who complains about the control is misinterpreting the game, Metroid Prime IS NOT a FPS, it's Metroid in 3D. Simple as that. Go play a classic Metroid, see the type of game it is? Prime is all that in 3D.

If you're going to approach it as a "Halo killer" or and Quake rip-off, then of course the controls are going to suck for you, but approach it as a 3D Metroid, and the controls are blissful.

Don't get me wrong, I thought the controls sucked too, but once I actually played the game for an hour or so, they started to feel right. Anyone who's missing strafing and freelook, has clearly missed the target lock-on feature - the controls are right for the job.

Re:prime's control setup

[Osty]

I'm sorry, but no. The game is fun, and the control scheme is serviceable, but it's also quite bad, and could've been much better. I own the game, and have played a number of hours in it, and I still dislike the controls. I know about the lock on trigger, and the freelook trigger, and I think they're a solution to a problem that never should've existed.

And I know what type of game Metroids are, I don't expect the game to be a Halo killer or a fast-paced Quake. But that's still no excuse for a poor control scheme.

Not to mention..

[OS24Ever]

...all they need to do is sell a few hundred 'super special editions' and then give an extra DVD full of animations that are in the game that the people that can't get through the game will watch. Add a soundtrack and you got a special, limited edition $99.95 version that all the people lusting after for years will buy, halving your development recovery costs.

New Amiga

[Xugumad]

It's shipping, people have the new motherboards up and running. See Eyetech's (who are making the boards) announcement at http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/oct252002a.php, or the discussion at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/. The OS itself isn't out yet, but the boards run Linux PPC just fine.

Re:New Amiga

[MegaHamsterX]

I'm sorry, but Amiga has DNF beat.

It's 9 years since they've been promising to move away from the 680x0 series, and even before then it was to be PA-RISC not PowerPC. It's the userbase and developers that are vapourware now!

Re:New Amiga

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it seems we were all wrong about the PA-RISC thing- "The initial schedule of 18 months was for the Hombre game machine hardware.
There's no real OS here, just a library of routines, including a 3D
package, which would probably be licensed. The Amiga OS was not to have
run on this system in any form," said Dave Haynie, all the way back in 1995.

Re:New Amiga

[Anonymous Coward]

Said Dave Haynie, "The initial schedule of 18 months was for the Hombre game machine hardware. There's no real OS here, just a library of routines, including a 3D package, which would probably be licensed. The Amiga OS was not to have run on this system in any form."

Re:New Amiga

[Afrosheen]

Screw the Amiga, I just want to see it's fabled multimedia abstraction layer that's designed to run on any *nix or freebsd system. Remember when that was conceptualized, oh, a year or so ago?

Re:New Amiga

[Tet]

It's shipping, people have the new motherboards up and running.

No, they're not shipping. My delivery date has been slipping. Supposedly it was going to arrive before Christmas, but it never turned up. The latest from Eyetech is that they're waiting for new chips from IBM before they can build the boards and assemble the finished machines. They're estimating end of January delivery dates now, but I'll believe it when the machine arrives on my doorstep...

Re:New Amiga

[Anonymous Coward]

That was only the G4-800 machines wasn't it?
I believe all (or most) of the G3-600 machines were shipped out in December. I've read reports by people who have them on amiga.org in any case.

Re:New Amiga

[Anonymous Coward]

Screw you, sir.

Now go take a look at www.amiga-anywhere.com

Re:New Amiga

[downix]

The layer arrived.... but with their new partner being Microsoft, it now runs on PocketPC only. All of those SDK's sold to Linux folk now have their software destined to be for Microsoft to resell.

Re:New Amiga

[downix]

Slightly wrong, the PA-RISC was never intended as the CPU for the Amiga. It was to be an I/O processor and GPU for the system, alongside a standard 68k initially, new CPU later.

As far as PowerPC'd Amiga's, Escom began that program with some off-ball programmers and a hw company called Phase5. Those programmers turned the Escom "PowerAmiga" project into a new OS, called MorphOS (seen at http://www.morphos.de ) which has been in public beta for several years now. The programme was kept going during Gateway's tenure, as the contract was still valid. But Amiga Inc changed the rules, and nullified the deal. Then announced that they'd do their own, and get it to market before MorphOS (despite the fact that MorphOS was already in public beta).

Crying shame. The PA-RISC GPU in Acutiator would have changed the rules back in the '90s.

Re:New Amiga

[Xugumad]

Its called Amiga DE. Its kinda like Java, except, err... okay, let me get back to you on that. Its available for Windows and Linux, last time I checked. More info, including a store that sells the player and a few games, at http://www.amiga-anywhere.com/.

Re:New Amiga

[MegaHamsterX]

Eh, I haven't verified myself, but three people seem to have corrected me on the PA-RISC thing, my initial understanding back in the day was that the main processor on the next gen amiga was to be PA-RISC.
I also remember the AGA Amigas had that ATT dsp on the prototypes, that went vapor in production.
I wouldn't think the 'business' side would ever let Haynie drive the cost of the machine up that far by having a PA-RISC chip as a coprocessor is laughable. Commodore cut anything that would be cutting edge, or even anything that would cost a few more cents period, the quality of the AGA amigas sucked balls.

I am aware of the phase5 thing, and it's stupid and was expensive, a power-pc co-processor?? I read about it before I abandoned my Amiga and it seemed like a big hack. If the entire OS could have been ported to the PowerPC and divorced from the custom chips, I would have stayed with it, but the custom chips were showing their age a year after they were released, granted you had to spend more money on the PC and Mac side, but it was no longer as big of a deal as it was in the '80s.

In any case, the new Amiga has something to do with Java, I have no clue why you would run it, it doesn't seem to offer anything my PC doesn't do now, it solves a problem no one has. Yes I know the classic one is still around, but where are you going to get the hardware to run it on and for what price, and who's left willing to pay?

As far as Gateway goes, I thought the Amiga had a chance with them, but then I realized I've never recommended a Gateway, or liked any I have worked on.

It takes more money than Amiga, Inc. has to make their plan work, the original Amiga nearly went bankrupt before making it, if it wasn't for some clever dealing it would've been an Atari.

I just wish they would bury the F@#$%$# company so all of us ex users could have a proper funeral for the machine that rocked in the 80's.

Re:New Amiga

[mdwh2]

It's 9 years since they've been promising to move away from the 680x0 series

Well, Amiga Inc (ie, the company) have only been around since 2000. OS4 is still somewhat vapourware (it was original planned for release in 2001, IIRC, now it's sometime this year), but you can't blame them for the fact that the two PC companies that owned the rights to the Amiga during previous years did bugger all (and indeed, Gateway's attempt at a new Amiga came number 2 in Wired's '99 Vaporware List).

Because 3D Realms is tricksy...

[nsample]

They've always been honest about their release date, and posted it openly since day 1. It's not their fault if the public can't read properly:

Duke Nukem Forever

Re:Because 3D Realms is tricksy...

[gosand]

They've always been honest about their release date, and posted it openly since day 1. It's not their fault if the public can't read properly: Duke Nukem Forever

Think about this: if they had released DNF, and it was just OK, would people still be talking about it (and 3D Realms)? But what if they are still in the news, year after year, because of this game? At least now, the company is legendary for something instead of being just another game company.

Re:Because 3D Realms is tricksy...

[MrDolby]

Of course they could have possibly released two decent Duke 3d games by now. They could be hyping up the expansion pack to Duke 5 about now.

How much fucking modification does DNF need?

[Moderator]

How much fucking modification does Duke Nukem Forever need? This is DUKE NUKEM we're talking about. There's no need for it to take six years to be released. They could release this using the Quake 1 engine for all the intended audience cares. As long as there's plenty of gore, juvenile humor and lots of topless women, this thing will sell like mad.

Alongside the Oqo...

[Larne]

...I'd nominate the Tiqit 83. A similiar idea, only with a built-in keyboard which would seem to make it more useful. Any bets on which, if either, will make it to market first?

OK, first and last time.

[dacarr]

This article is the call for nominations. You know, like what happens before you vote.

The article that this comment is attached to is the awards. You know, the part that comes AFTER the vote.

A -1 redundant on all who state otherwise.

I'm surprised they didn't mention..

[Reductionist]

Prey! Anyone else remember this much vaunted/hyped fps from 3D Realms? It was first promoted back in '96 right before the original Quake was released.
Googled this bit of info from IGN..
http://pc.ign.com/articles/355/355382p1.html
March 12, 2002 - Prey, its very name is the definition of vaporware, and is even perhaps responsible for a lot of the Duke Nukem nay saying. You see, Prey was to be 3D Realms' grand first-person shooting triumph. What it promised to sport in 1997 was a new engine with better than Unreal looks, Max Payne radiosity lighting, and Red Faction environmental interactivity.

It was only after sometime that the reality of lacking technology sunk in and Prey, along with its Turok reminiscent story of a Native American gone alien abductee superhero was axed. From then, DNF was put in full swing, and has still yet to arrive, leading conspiracy theorist gamers with way too much time on their hands to always expect the worst.
However, in 1999, 3D Realm's George Broussard made it abundantly clear that the title was still in some way, shape, or form being developed, but that it should not be expected anytime soon. Despite this, and all the other hype surrounding the title, it seemed Prey eventually wound up on the dreaded backburner (insert Prey falling prey pun here).

That was then... This is now.

Web rumor (as wonderfully reliable as it is) suggests the game has perhaps risen from the dead by the helping hand of Rune's own Human Head Studios. Further speculation cites the latest in Doom technology to be the likely power behind this prey's second wind.
All parties rumored to be involved are obviously tightlipped (the terribly sad norm in this industry). We'll be back with more details if further information arises substantiating or debunking this rumor.

Re:I'm surprised they didn't mention..

[Hast]

Yeah I though about that too. OTOH I don't think anyone expects it to be shipped anylonger.

Much like "Into the shadows" and a bunch of other games from that time.

Re:I'm surprised they didn't mention..

[Bakaneko]

Prey got the official axe sometime this year, so it can't be vaporware anymore: The vapor has dissapated.

eh

[SweetAndSourJesus]

Metroid or not, it's a semi-goofy controller setup. It's impossible to change visors while moving, for example. Ergonomics simply don't allow it.

Playing the game for a while really changes things. I can understand why people get so pissed about the controls, though. They do take time to get used to. Most folks who play the game at Best Buy or at a friend's house don't play long.

Re:eh

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that says something about the size of your thumbs? Are they two small?

That thing is cool...

[Anonymous Coward]

...now if they could just add built-in 802.11b with internal antennae so you don't have to use some stupid PC Card that sticks out, and they stripped it down to run nothing but a decent web browser (and lowered the price accordingly), THEN they'd have something that would sell.

In this economy, the Oqo and the Tiqit (in its current incarnation) will never find a market-- they'll just be overly-expensive toys the public will gawk at before buying a cheap Palm or PocketPC.

correction in slashdot dept

[Kunta Kinte]

This story should be

from the I-want-new-shiny-things-to-distract-me -from-my-mind-numbly-unfulfilled-life-and-I-want-i t-now! dept.

I admit, I'm guilty of this too.

Re:correction in slashdot dept

[SEWilco]

from the I-want-new-shiny-things-to-distract-me -from-my-mind-numbly-unfulfilled-life-and-I-want-i t-now! dept.

Shadowbane must be really good. It's so good they can't quit playing the beta enough to get it done.

8. Ubi Soft's Shadowbane: An ambitious online role-playing game set in a post-apocalyptic world, Shadowbane has been in development so long, readers said, it is now referred to as "Shadowwait." (Although the game has been in beta for a couple of years, it qualifies as vaporware because it hasn't hit store shelves as a shrink-wrapped product.)

Better make it good

[phorm]

"What can I say?" he wrote in an e-mail. "We're undeniably late and we know it. We've switched engines a couple of times, and we've started over a couple of times. We've made some mistakes, and we've learned from them. I'm just glad we're in a position to do those things, and to be able to make the game we want to make, instead of being rushed out the door to meet stock projections.

While a lot of people (myself included) are privately theorizing that this game will never make it out (Duke Nukum, Never), if it ever does arrive I have the feeling it will sell rather quickly. Over 5 years waiting tends to add to the hype, and, as mentioned, they've done a lot of overhauls. I will gladly wait 8 years for a game that turns out really good, rather than have them crank out another lame clone after a few just to meet a deadline and stop the complaints about delay.

That being said, I wonder how the upcoming release of D3 will measure up against a possible DN forever. Which would be better, and/or more anticipated

Ah, the memories of the hidden doom marine in DN3D, will we see a dead duke in D3, or perhaps some jokes about the delay.

DNF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that a racing acroymn for Did Not Finish (yes I know you are refering to Duke). Kinda funny when you think about it.

The only yes-woman I'd need

[Mordant]

in that situation would be Carmack's girlfriend.

};>

Re:The only yes-woman I'd need

[Lebannen]

That Miss Romero? I thought they'd split up?

They forgot one...

[Dunkalis]

This is the mother and father of vaporware. I mean, look of "vaporware" in a dictionary, and you'll find...

GNU Hurd

Couldn't resist!

autopr0n game-hyping system (patent pending)

[autopr0n]

Step 1. Think up an interesting idea for a game. Spend a few days coming up with mockup graphics.

step 2. Keep working on other projects and spend a few hours a month working on more mockups and prototypes.

Repeat step 2 for a couple years, show the 'game' to reporters. Hype relentlessly, but gradually taper off.

Wait a few more years, occasionally report problems 'we switched engines' etc. everyone laughs, you become the quintessential vaporware, etc. Tell everyone you're waiting because the game is going to be perfect. Ship the games you were actually working on

After 4 or 5 years of this, start working on the game. Everyone's heard of it, everyone knows about it. And when you're finished (in a year or so) everyone downloads the demo, even non-hardcore gamers. Of course, you'll need to make sure the game is fun, and polished, but if you succeed you'll have huge mindshare already, and probably a hit.

Unreal was delayed and delayed, and since it was pretty good it sold well. Daikatana took forever, but it was shitty. If it had actually been a good game, it probably would have done well. We'll have to see what happens with DNF, but I bet it would have sold well if it was good.

With my plan, you'll have years of hype and anticipation waiting for a game that only cost a year or so of development costs.

and licensing my patent will only cost you 4% of the development costs!

Re:autopr0n game-hyping system (patent pending)

[Hast]

Sorry, too much prior art.

No wait, your plan has a "release" part as well.

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA

[Anonymous Coward]

In Jokes Russia Russia Soviet Soviet wait you . . . ,

salmon of Capistrano?

[SweetAndSourJesus]

salmon???

Should be vapor games

[d3xt3r]

This is just games not software.

The best piece of vaporware still goes to Microsoft for .Net. A software product that doesn't exist but MS claims to be anything and everything at the same time.

I hate to complain about posts but, Slashdot belongs in the "King of the misleading headlines department" lately.

P.S. - you can't really mod me down for being off topic, this whole damn story is off topic.

Re:Should be vapor games

[swordgeek]

I'd agree, except for one thing: Has .NET ever been given a release date?

Re:Should be vapor games

[Mr_Silver]

This is just games not software.

Try reading the article. Points 10, 9, 7, 6 and 4 in particular. I'd hardly call them games.

P.S. - you can't really mod me down for being off topic, this whole damn story is off topic.

If I had mod points I would have done :o)

Re:Should be vapor games

[damiam]

.net exists.

Re:Should be vapor games

[poot_rootbeer]

Quark Xpress is a GAME???

'Digital film' for your old 35mm camera is a GAME??? .Net is a platform, not a "software product". You can't go to the store and buy a copy of "Microsoft Dot Net", but right now software is being developed using .Net tools.

I happen to think it's much less important than MS wants us to think, but still.

add alternative power to the list

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been waiting for new technology such as fuel cells to replace or supplant batteries and UPS units for some time. All we hear is that new technologies are almost ready or in the labs... it's time to get this stuff out of the labs and into the homes and businesses of the people.

not to mention long lasting portable power for cell phones and PDAs...

Grrr...

Yo

[You Are A Dumbass]

This is not news. Read sllort's journals from about a year ago for the whole story. Then come on over to the dark side.

Greatest movie vaporware

[GreyWolf3000]

Those daggummed Matrix sequels. How long has it been since those teasers started popping up?

Re:Greatest movie vaporware

[demon]

They didn't claim those would appear before 2003 though. I haven't heard anything to indicate the dates on them have slipped. And it's a good thing, too - I need a reason to go see a movie (other than the new Lord of the Rings movie, IMO the movie selection in the theaters has been weak).

Re:Greatest movie vaporware

[GreyWolf3000]

I'm sure a few 12-year old crackheads that love to find obscure posts to mod down and giggle will find this and censor me accordingly, but I recommend "Catch Me if you Can," since the story of Frank Abignail is really one of the greatest true stories of the century. Other than that, there's not much on unless you're a Star Trek or a Harry Potter fan (I'm neither).

Duke Nukem Forever: DNF appropriate abbreviation?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

I saw DNF in a bunch of posts, first thing I thought of was racing Abbreviation
DNF: Did Not Finish.

Re:Repeat submission

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF is 'bling bling'?

From the Duke 4 nomination:

[di0s]

I'm just glad we're in a position to do those things, and to be able to make the game we want to make, instead of being rushed out the door to meet stock projections.

Wow, that's the same lame-ass excuse he's been using for the past 5 years. I must've forgotten about id Software's secret stock options when Quake 3 came out. Maybe we should have a side section for excuses such as these for why vaporware is still vaporware alongside the Vaporware Awards.

We've had 3 Quakes and we're almost at Doom 3. Since Duke 4 was announced in '97, we've gone from the Pentium I (with a 233 being the fastest) to a Pentium IV at 3 Ghz (4.1 if you read Tom's Hardware). Needless to say, the world has moved on to bigger and better things. And they'll probably pass on Duke 4.

Somehow I think that when Duke 4 comes out (if ever), it'll already be in the bargain bin at EB.

hm

[cHiphead]

just a while guess, but could it be...

Duke Nukem Forever

?

Half this list is games!

[rtphokie]

Am I the only person left on ./ who isn't obsessed with gaming? Computers are wonderfully useful tools for tasks other than playing games.

Re:Half this list is games!

[Turbyne]

Am I the only person left on ./ who isn't obsessed with gaming? Computers are wonderfully useful tools for tasks other than playing games.

Like pr0n?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Re:Half this list is games!

[funkmastermike]

not gaming on a pc? thats vaporware in itself

Re:Half this list is games!

[Anonymous Coward]

What's dot-slash?

Re:Half this list is games!

[Anonymous Coward]

By which you mean, porn?

Re:Half this list is games!

[the_rev_matt]

If I had mod points, I'd up parent to this. I've been using computers every day for 10 years now and I think I played Quake a few times several years ago. I don't own a single game.

Way to RUIN the suspense...

[httpamphibio.us]

Andrew Gray said, "Master of Orion 3 has been talked about forever, hyped over the last year, and the release date pushed back until February now. Chances are we'll be talking about MOO3 in the same way we talk about Duke Nukem Whenever (the sarcastic nickname for Duke Nukem Forever; see below)."

They put the final entry on it's own page, you know... to keep it suspenseful... morons...

Disposible cellphone

[eyeball]

Does the disposible count?

Re:Disposible cellphone

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks on their website as if the product is actually going to market, although this image looks remarkably fake.

Also, if you google for Hop-On in association with any of their apparent partners (Walgreens, Qualcomm, Viasystems), you will only find results from Hop-On and its press release. Funny how there's nothing at all from anyone else...

Re:D00000000P!

[Tuxinatorium]

wtf? How the heck can a first post be "Redundant"? The definition of redundant is repeating what has already been said. By definition, a first post can't be redundant as long as it refers to the article (IN SOVIET RUSSIA jokes notwithstanding).

Get your moderation right. Parent should be -1 troll, not -1 redundant. And this post is not (-1 troll) or (-1 redundant). It's (-1 offtopic). Mod it right.

Video cards?

[vistic]

Maybe someone can help me.

What's the name of that one videocard company from Scandinavia or something, the one that keeps promising the best videocard ever, the one that keeps apparently makes money just by putting out promises and tech sheets?

I kept thinking it was something like Bit Brothers but that's not it. It's Bit something I think.

Re:Video cards?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bit Boys.

Check out somethingawful.com for an amusing parody of a bit boys press release.

Re:Video cards?

[KewlPC]

The name is Bit Boys.

IIRC, they were bought out by some other company (3Dfx if memory serves).

Glad Wired is sorting this out for us...

[Infonaut]

since they've got such a good grip on what's going on, and have for such a long time. Anyone else remember the tragically optimistic "Push" issue of Wired Magazine? I quote: "The Web browser itself is about to croak."

I couldn't help it. Dammit, I'm already accruing coal in my stocking for 2003...

DNF RELEASE DATE

[Anonymous Coward]

June 15, 2003.

3dRealms may say "When it's done" but I say June 15, 2003. This comes from a trusted source. Argue it, dismiss it, mock it, spin out your own date, I'll stick with what I've heard from someone who knows.

June 15, 2003.

The DNF hype machine should start pretty soon.

NWN Linux&Mac clients...

[Anonymous Coward]

are second to Duke Nukem Forever. Since I've been hoping for the Linux client, I find this positioning quite scary :-).

Do Not Worry About It OR Blizzard!

[jadams2484]

I say, then, don't worry about it looking old. Look at Blizzard, who has huge PC game sales by title and is very respected in the industry. They always delay games and their games always look dated by the time they come out. It doesn't matter though... 1. The gameplay is still good enough to sell it, despite it looking years old. 2. A dated game just means lower system requirements, which opens up a broader audience. Quake 3 is dying now for Doom 3, but Half-Life still gets more play. Even though it is an old engine, everyone can use it so it remains popular based on gameplay.

cheat codes

[MegaFur]

So that's where idSPISPOPD came from, huh? I always wondered. I'm glad they changed it to the much simpler idCLIP in Doom2.

Okay, so what about the text message that pops up when you do idCHOPPERS?
"... doesn't suck - GM"
What the hell were the referring to?

Re:cheat codes

[NighthawkFoo]

SPISPOPD == Smashing Pumkpins Into Stinking Piles Of Pumpkin Debris.

Re:cheat codes

[Anonymous Coward]

Choppers is another game created by a guy whose intials are GM, I saw this in a FAQ somewhere just recently.

Re:Duke Nukem Forever: DNF appropriate abbreviatio

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Hmmm....Lets see....They have the word "forever" in it's name, and the abbreviation is the same as "did not finish" and they've taken the number one vaporware award 2 years in a row and their CEO admits it's taking a long time, and says it will be done when it's done.

Things don't look too good for ol' Duke Nukem.

Wait a minute....and it's name has "Nukem" in it, maybe they're refering to what happened to their development team? :p

On another note...

[Hegemony]

Wow...forget the article. What about that Harris Direct ad along the right hand side! I wonder what it is they're trying to draw attention too...hmm...

So where was Itanium?

[dcmeserve]

Well, maybe next year...

Re:So where was Itanium?

[damiam]

Itanium exists.

The -other- Games

[oldstrat]

Lets' see nope, no body of Osama.
The threat alert system isn't working (still orange)
Economic recovery didn't start (Q1,Q2,Q3,Q4).
Tech recovery didn't happen.
Bernie Ebbers is still a free man.

And the IRS still exists as strong as ever.


So a PC game is late, I shouldn't wonder.

Free Bacon

[Ratbert42]

The free bacon that never came.

Re:D00000000P!

[Quill]

Indeed, I was very careful to check the Older Stuff archive before posting, just to be sure. The closest thing I could find was the call for nominations, to which I provided a link.

Does anyone think we could train the editors to be so thorough?

Victor Ireland said it

[Anonymous Coward]

The actual quote is:

• Delays are temporary, mediocrity is forever

And no one from nintendo ever said that. It was Victor Ireland of Working Designs. He used that quote when explaining the frequent delays for Lunar.

You forgot about taxes...

[tjwhaynes]

Nice figures but you missed another leech on the side of the finances - Taxes. Consumer pays approximately 15% tax on the new product. There are probably other taxes being worked out from the base cost as well going down the chain to Remedy, so that's going to bite even harder.

Short of John Carmack actually revealing how much money id software makes for each copy of Quake 3 sold, you probably can't get hard figures. But I think your estimate of around $3 profit per game is about right, especially once you factor in material costs, packaging and transport costs.

Cheers,

Toby Haynes

Flash 6 for Linux?

[mrjb]

Nice all those games in the vaporware list, but plenty of other games *did* make it to release. There are no products available that can replace flash 6 (either by Macromedia or other sources) and Fv6 simply doesn't play on v5 players-- so much for graceful degradation. A port has been promised ages ago but nothing has been released so far. Emails to Macromedia asking when the product will be released go unanswered. In my opinion it should definitely have been in the vaporware list too.

Re:Flash 6 for Linux?

[The J Kid]

*ahem*

Flash 6 Beta Download page

Thank you for you're time.

QuarkXPress

[jonadab]

> "Apple should buy out Quark simply to get this app out," opined
> Stuart Long. "It's the one app holding back the adoption of an
> amazing Unix OS."

First off, the only thing holding back adoption of OS X is time; as
people replace their old Macs with new ones, and as new apps and
versions of apps are released that do not support Classic, adoption
of OS X is a foregone conclusion. No one app matters, really. It
can make the difference of a couple of years for some people, but
in the long run it doesn't fundamentally change anything.

My other comment about this is that for Apple to buy out Quark in
order to get XPress out would probably disgruntle Adobe, which is
probably not something Apple particularly wants to do.

DN4ever

[Fooknut]

I think it's cool that the company making Duke Nukem forever is willing to spend the money to redesign and rebuild and switch game engines. Duke Nukem has been a success in the past, and I think it's nice to know that this game won't be canned the way other games are when they become even slightly unwieldy.

Most game companies would have dropped it years ago and we would never have a game at all. Some of the most promising games have been dropped because the bean counters couldn't justify it.

There is nothing to cool (and rebellious) as "it's done when it's done" heh.

Silicon Film is still dead

[forkb0y]

how long are people going to talk about a product from a company that has been formally out of business for over a year?

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0109/01091702silico nf ilmvaporizes.asp

Here here

[kien]

The company's president, George Broussard, gracefully received the award on behalf of 3D Realms. "What can I say?" he wrote in an e-mail. "We're undeniably late and we know it. We've switched engines a couple of times, and we've started over a couple of times. We've made some mistakes, and we've learned from them. I'm just glad we're in a position to do those things, and to be able to make the game we want to make, instead of being rushed out the door to meet stock projections. "In the end all that matters is the quality of the game," he continued. "So, lessons have been learned, and progress is being made, and we're working as quickly and quietly as we can. You're completely justified in calling us 'turtleware,' at the very least, but the release date is still 'when it's done.'"

It's nice to see a game company that cares more about the quality of their software than the masses of gamers screaming "Vaporware!" and internal beancounters. I for one won't bash 3D Realms for how long it's taking them. As much as I'm looking forward to Duke Nukem Forever, I'm willing to wait and respect a game company for caring enough to at least try to get it right the first time instead of adopting the common attitude of "Let's just push it out the door and patch it later".

--K.

Re:Here here

[demon]

Not having to rush unnecessarily is all fine and good, but having to completely start over at least twice? That seems to be pushing toward the realm of the ridiculous, if you ask me. How many years in the making has DNF been, anyway? 5 years? More? They have to eventually either finish it, or say "sorry folks, but it's just not going to happen."

Re:Here here

[kien]

Not having to rush unnecessarily is all fine and good, but having to completely start over at least twice? That seems to be pushing toward the realm of the ridiculous, if you ask me.

You hit on a great point, demon. What if technology is outpacing solid game design? What I mean is, what if games are released with known deficiencies because the developers know that if they don't hurry it out the door, the next big graphics card/directX/game engine will be released and send them back to the drawing board? It's almost like a chicken/egg scenario and it seems a plausible explanation to me about why the "ship it and patch it" development strategy exists.

I guess if this is indeed the case, DNF could remain vaporware inevitably...which is a shame because I think they have the right idea about how to make a game.

--K.

Re:Here here

[demon]

Others have mentioned the thought that if they're basing too heavily on blinky technology, and not enough on solid gameplay, the game will always be outdated - and IMO those people are right. Maybe that's part of the problem with DNF? Too much shiny technology, not enough meat?

Regardless, I think the old adage about "shit or get off the pot" applies here. Either get it done, or just call it dead. No sense in dragging it out for another 5 year stretch. As I said, not having to rush a project is a good thing, and I won't argue that point - but either it's going to get done or it's not. Others have pointed out what happened with Daikatana - a concept with a lot of potential that took way too long, and ended up being really lousy when it finally made its appearance. Chances are that's what'll happen with DNF, and it's too bad, but that's what happens when these projects drag on and on.

Explanation why duke nukem forever is so late

[Anonymous Coward]

From The DNF product page:

"Job: Project Leader / Sh!t Filter (tm)

Spends all his available time (when not playing EverQuest) trying to decide what the team should focus on and accomplish next."

There you go, EverQuest is to blame.

IN SOVIET RUSSIA...

[Anonymous Coward]

First posts are multiply redundant duplicate copies of posts that haven't been posted yet!

Also, since you yourself cannot decide how it should be moderated, why don't you shut the fuck up?

Microsoft OS Voice Recognition

[schaefms]

I remember back when OS/2 Warp was released with built-in (although pretty cumbersome) voice recognition. Bill Gates boldly announced that the next version of Microsoft Windows would have voice recognition capability... Hmmm 98, 98SE, 2000, Me, XP. Sounds like a bad case of vaporware, or more likely, fraud. Methinks it was an attempt to divert attention from OS/2 without costing MS a penny.

credibility

[IXI]

Of course, if M$ had any credibility left, the first place would have been their "trustworthy computing initiative".

Re:Duke Nukem Forever: DNF appropriate abbreviatio

[veddermatic]

That's funny, we use that term frequently in volleyball tournaments.. 'cept it means "Dead Fucking Last"

Could be how investors in the game come out of the deal... =)

Don't base your game on looks then.

[kfg]

Base it on gameplay.

Please record this on a loop tape and put it under your pillow at night.

I play games a lot. I play a lot of them a few times, I play a few of them often. At this point I spend 98% of my game time in two games, Grand Prix Legends and Age of Empires II. Notice something about these games?

*They're both nearly five years old.*

But sweet Jesus they're good games. They look pretty good too, if it comes to that.

There's something to be learned here. Honest.

KFG

And lucky for you, they're all vapor!

[raygundan]

Just think-- that's five less annoying games to bother your practical and productive non-game computer usage.

Sorry

[NDPTAL85]

That lame bit of enabling you just spat out is only valid for the first 3 years of game development. A video game should not take half a decade to complete. They need to either release something soon or admit they don't know how to program so much as a hello world.

Since we're largely talking games...

[alumshubby]

...there's a sim for modern naval warfare, Harpoon, that's had several iterations. It's the computer offspring of a board game developed by Larry Bond. Tom Clancy, author of The Hunt for Red October and Red Storm Rising, credits Larry Bond and Harpoon for helping him figure out the battle sequences.

The next and greatest one, Harpoon 4, has been in pushback mode for a little while now: First it was fall '02 (the web site still says this), then Christmas '02, and now the word is March. As complex a sim as this is, I won't be surprised if it's not until Christmas '03.

holographic storage and power line internet,

[jetkust]

i've been hearing about holographic storage for a while. And then there's that whole thing about electric companys providing internet service through power lines which is pretty vapor.

Re:Duke Nukem Forever: DNF appropriate abbreviatio

[Anonymous Coward]

How does DNF = "Dead Fucking Last"?

Hey, anyone remember...

[anonymous loser]

Anyone remember when Halo was supposed to come out simultaneously for PC and Mac, before Bungie was bought by MS? That's right, 2002!

The projected release date (at least for PC) is now second half of 2003 IIRC.

Re:Duke Nukem Forever: DNF appropriate abbreviatio

[veddermatic]

when it's translated into english, you insesitive clod!

Unreal Tournament

[Quintin Stone]

UT is not exactly the same engine at UT2k3. Ask any mod author who's trying to port their game from the former to the latter. Yes, I'm sure they reused a lot, but the two are still very different from an integration perspective.

You're right...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's public interest in the new Amiga that's vapor...

Yeah, well...

[artemis67]

It would be nice to have Duke Nukem Forever to play while the production department is waiting for QuarkXPress for OS X...

Oh, the difference 2 hours makes

[Anonymous Coward]

Some humorless turd modded me down to -1 Flamebait for posting the same thing.

And let's give credit where credit is due... it's GNU/Mach/HURD dammit! Even if it isn't real.

What about...

[manduwok]

...Bob?

Agreed

[Anonymous Coward]

Here at Microsoft I met Mr. Kamen, and he demonstrated more than 15 of them to several hundred employees throughout the day.

What about ardour?

[Anonymous Coward]

There just isn't a suitable Linux replacement for audio+MIDI sequencing programs like Cakewalk and Cubase. We've been waiting for one program called ardour (http://ardour.sourceforge.net/) for over 2 years!

Bitboys Graphics Card.

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely DNF will be released just in time to run on the Bitboys graphics card.

What, not FreeBSD 5.0?

[zaft]

I thought for sure it would be the long-awaited FreeBSD 5.0

My Personal Favorite Vaporware: Lotus Jazz

[dmh20002]

In the 80's, a stream of really cool advertisements came out for Lotus Jazz. The ads NEVER said what Jazz was or what it did. But they were so cool (a dancing yuppie up on his tiptoes and the headline 'you have to have Jazz') that I really wanted to buy it, whatever it was. It was hyped in the media of the time but still no one ever said what it was beyond it being some kind of 'integrated software' for business.
Then one day it just vanished. Everyone stopped talking about it, the ads were gone. It was like a government coverup of a flying saucer crash. I never saw it on a store shelf and never found out what it was.

Re:My Personal Favorite Vaporware: Lotus Jazz

[gekman]

Actually, it WAS released, in 1985. It was an all-in-one package for the Mac, like Symphony (also released by Lotus) was for the PC, with a word processor, spreadsheet, database, etc. Google for reviews.

The problem was that the product apparently sucked big-time, as did Symphony. I tried Symphony way back when and it just didn't cut it. As great as Lotus 1-2-3 was, these integrated products were horrible. Swapping between modules was iffy at best, and they taxed the capabilities of main-line PCs.

Remember, Symphony was a DOS program, and the Macs of the time just didn't have the horsepower to run a complex app like that.

Plus, the programs sucked. Did I mention that?

Bit Boys, Oy!

[RatBastard]

Bit Boys. Last I heard they had a simulation of their chip running, but it wasn't anything to write home about.

"Hear! Hear!", goddamnit!

[RatBastard]

It's not "Here! Here!"! It's "Hear! Hear!".

But back to the topic at hand: Who cares? DOOM 3 is going to come out before DNF and 3DR is going to find themselves in the same spot they were with DN3D: using an already outdated engine while id's newest engine (Quake 1, at that time) whipes the floor with them.

This is no disrespect to Ken Silverman, who'se Build Engine was a damned impressive achievement for a SINGLE programmer of his age. 3DR could use a Ken Silverman or two right now to get things done.

Vaporware? IBM for sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Gack! How could anyone dispute this as the greatest vaporware of the year? http://www.research.ibm.com/resources/news/2002102 4_cascade.shtml
IBM builds circuits with molecules of carbon monoxide.

Get it? Vaporware? CARBON MONOXIDE?

Sigh.

[rebelcool]

When you add features to an engine, its not just some slap-on quickie code module. usually it entails making substantial changes to numerous parts of the engine.

When I change some module in something, I call it a 'rewrite' if its a major change. Doesn't mean i'm starting from scratch.

And what happens when the updates conflict or don't work with the changes you've made? Then you have to rewrite the updates. yes thats right - 'rewrite'.

And then you have to test..and test..and test..

Re:Sigh.

[KewlPC]

Yes, adding a new feature will require some changes to a few parts of the engine. But that still doesn't count as a rewrite.

Major change != rewrite

And what happens when the updates conflict or don't work with the changes you've made? Then you have to rewrite the updates. yes thats right - 'rewrite'.

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Why would you rewrite the update that the engine's developers sent you? Most people would just alter the changes they had made until they worked with the update.

Re:D00000000P!

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

Odd.. Metroid is hailed by its awesome controls...

[Viewsonic]

A lot of people have been pushing to move the controls to other games because it works so wonderfully.

Too many Microsoft drones.. No boobs on Nintendo..

[Viewsonic]

Are some of the reasons why people are avoid them. In todays society you have a lot of braindead kids who have grown up on violence and sex, which is what Microsoft and Sony capitalize on. That's not to say you wont find games like that on Nintendo, but for the most part they aim their games at the generation of gamers who look for FUN over BREASTS.

Serial ATA

[Lester67]

Anyone seen a drive yet?

Mmm... Total Annihilation...

[uXs]

There will be at least 2 "sequels" for TA:

The first is now being made by some Korean company, will probably be called "TA 2", and will probably suck.

The second is in pre-pre-pre-production, will be made by Chris Taylor's company Gas Powered Games, and will ROCK YOUR WORLD.

Re:"Hear! Hear!", goddamnit!

[kien]

It's not "Here! Here!"! It's "Hear! Hear!".

Thanks for the clarification; I've never been sure about the etymology of that phrase so I always screw it up. :)

I agree with the rest of your post (see my reply to demon above) too.

--K.

They forgot webmaster inc

[Anonymous Coward]

They promosed IM, voice chat, and video chat, all in the summer of 2002, and it just went up in smoke. these features were never put in 2.0, but it still costs $1000 (or more) to upgrade, and isn't linux software susposed to be open source?

No Tenon XTools?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned XTools by Tenon.

They suckered lots of people (me included) into paying $99 to $199 for a product that has never passed beta.

The delays have gotten so bad that the only new posts on their discussion board are discussing class action suits, not software.

Last Post!

[alpg]

Although it is still a truism in industry that "no one was ever fired for
buying IBM," Bill O'Neil, the chief technology officer at Drexel Burnham
Lambert, says he knows for a fact that someone has been fired for just that
reason. He knows it because he fired the guy.
"He made a bad decision, and what it came down to was, 'Well, I
bought it because I figured it was safe to buy IBM,'" Mr. O'Neil says.
"I said, 'No. Wrong. Game over. Next contestant, please.'"
-- The Wall Street Journal, December 6, 1989

- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...