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First Red Hat Academy for High School
FrankBama writes "As a follow-up to the story of a few days ago, Red Hat has started a program in my old hometown. The story's at the News & Record. I love this part '...this training normally would cost more than $10,000. But Weaver students can get Red Hat certification free -- and use it get a job paying more than $30,000 a year right out of high school.'"
...but I beg to differ with the $10,000 amount. And I'd hope that even a high school graduate could make more than $30k a year with a good understanding of Linux systems administration.
The meme police, They live inside of my head
It's funny when trolls copy other people's posts [slashdot.org] and then post as a reply to an entirely unrelated thread.
There was a very similar two year course at my high school that granted certification for Cisco Router Systems. What I remember is the teachers' endless grumbling over how a kid right outta high school can now go get a job that pays better than teaching.
Yeah, wait now -- who's hiring again?
I had a dream
When I was in high school
That I attended
The Red Hat Academy
I had to leave IT and I have several years of experience. Thanks to bootcamps certifications are no more then peaces of paper. A paper is nice but its worthless without experience.
http://saveie6.com/
This is good news from several fronts. One thing I like about it is that it gives high-school students a marketable skill. It's always been a pet peeve of mine that we can send kids to school for 12 years (grades 1-12) and when they come out the other side we still haven't imbued them with skills to make a living.
education costs, and anyone with the cert has "skills" that pay. so?
can't help but feel you're trying to say they're overstating the value of the cert. cert is not a dirty word, it's what gets you paid. seems like a good investment by all.
Not a dupe moron, this one is specific to a particular school.
I don't know about the part of easily getting a job, but giving free RedHat formation is great! :(
Why doesn't this happen to me? Why do I have to pay for everything?
KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid!
What part of follow up don't you understand.
If this is ment as "funny" it sure isn't. At least you might not get the "redundents" like all the others who try this lame joke.
According to Google News, this isn't the only place such things are happening. Many schools are embracing linux, this program is just another great extension of such happenings.
Can't speak for other cities, but in Tampa, there's no way you're going to walk into a 30 grand Linux tech job right out of high school, no matter what your skill level is. Tech jobs in general are hard to come by here. Uh... unless it's... pron...
Music - www.richardmac.com
I always hear such news and it tends to sadden me, nothing like that was ever available at my high school nor is it at my college despite frequent promises to come up with similar programs. Maybe I should stop paying my 4 year university large sums of money twice a year and go to a boot camp for a few weeks, it might cost more, but some would say I'd get more out of it.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Its nice and all that they are trying to help highschool kids have a future after school but I don't think this is an appropriate choice for training. I have yet to meet anyone "right out of highschool" who has the intellectual maturity (notice I didn't say capacity) to function in a corporate position. This applies especially to positions such as Systems Administration where experience, wisdom and maturity are an absolute necessity.
I know all the shit-hot teenage geeks out there are going to think I'm out of line for saying this (especially when they feel they are ready to take on the world). I'd recommend they go to University and expand their minds a bit even if they feel it is below them or that they wouldn't learn anything. Don't rush into being a wage-slave, kiddies, its not half as much fun as you think it is.
Perhaps they can use it to get a job as well.
I like it.
When they are younger, it's easier to mold their minds.
Way to go for Linux world domination.
A message from the system administrator: 'I've upped my priority. Now up yours.'
Is that considered a descent salary? A college graduate in Engineering should be making over $50k a year. I think that it is more important for these kids, who are obviously smart since they are using Linux, to go to a university and get a solid education.
... but back then, I was learning DOS 3.3 (for Apple II) and AppleWorks, becuase "everyone in the future will be using this stuff!"...
Anyway, I took that seriously, and made damn sure that I *knew* to enter the proper date when Appleworks was starting up, and that I *had* to make sure I had the right disks in the drives.
(Interesting note: Even in Word 2002, CONTROL-B and CONTROL-L are for bold and underlining, respectively)
Of course, we all learned how to use Apple DOS (both 3.3 and ProDOS) - we^H^Hthe rest of the class did this for a solid month, during which time I was permitted to play Choplifter, Cannonball Blitz, and Ultima V because I already knew how to use Dos... which *really* pissed the rest of the class off...
Anyway, to get to my point, I wonder how relavent the things that they learn now will be a few years after they graduate - and I hope it is *concepts* that they learn, instead of cookie cutter "type CATALOG to see a what's on your disk, insert your disk and type PR#6 to start AppleWorks" stuff...
-RickTheWizKid
(Open-Apple-S to save, Open-Apple-P to print)
We would all be complaining and kicking and screaming right now. What's the difference between Redhat and Microsoft? In business terms nothing, they both have share holders to please. Don't become gullible to Redhat, they need to make money too. The only good thing is that they help tow the open source line and are successful in socio-economic terms.
more people without college degrees working in the IT field. I mean, shucks... Who needs emotional intelligence, improved social skills, exposure to a broad range of topics, writing skills, and all of that other silly things you hopefully pick up in college?
Seriously, most of the H.S.-diploma-only folks I've ever dealt with in the professional world have chips on their shoulders. Ten times worse than those who went to Ivy League schools, in fact.
god.. See, the idea is fine.. But that figure is a bit off lol -- then again i wish they had that back when i was highschool, I could have shown off :)
I've left to find myself. If you happen to see me, please, keep me there until I return.
..of geek parents into Greensboro.
That is, if geeks ever get the opportunity to become parents (I know I don't).
<B>note to self:</B> <I>post as html</I>
I have to wonder if this is good news overall for the Linux community.
Many students spend well over $100,000 on a 4 yr college education and then graduate without Jobs. Do we really want college kids competing with HS grads for the same mid to upper-salary jobs in the $30-35K range?
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
any slashdotter worth his weight in trolls should be nerdy enuf to knwo about atom and his package
But Weaver students can get Red Hat certification free -- and use it get a job paying more than $30,000 a year right out of high school.'
Oh, sweet $DEITY. They could spend time taking college classes in high school, learning marketable skills that aren't tied to a particular manufacturer's contrivances of what a computer operating system should look and act like, learning to code, READING BOOKS, and end up far valuable "just out of high school" than a little RedHat, Cisco, or Microsoft drone. It seems a little premature (high school) to be focusing so heavily on something so specialized instead of gaining an appreciation and general understanding of computing.
The kids that come out of these programs (I've got a "Cisco Academy" at a high school close by that I work with, and know people who teach at another high school that's been doing CompTIA "A+" training, and I've gotten to be around some of these kids) are mostly useless drones. The kids that really have potential are the ones that hack around on their own, have a genuine interest, and make something of themselves on their own. I'd take one (1) of them to ten (10) of these "cookie cutter kids". The training is just too specialized-- they can't handle something that wasn't "in the book".
Don't get me wrong-- I think it's great that schools are expanding their technical training-- but don't expect these kids to be useful for much other than what they've been "trained" for when they get done.
Those Cisco kiddies can sure make the patch cables, though. Snip-snip, crimp-crimp!
The Attitude Adjuster, I hate me, you can too.
mores the point who is going to hire a fresh faced student with zero commercial experience and just a piece of paper (no established recognition) to prove their competance for $30k ?
methinks someone is dreaming of utopia somewhere, business reality however is a different thing
Vocational training in high school has always provided this type of opportunity. Right now we have IT certs like this one and the CISCO ones we have in my town (and they are grouped with the vocational classes). When I was in high school several of my friends leveraged their vocational training into 30K-40K jobs with various airlines as machinists. When my father was in high school, he leveraged his electronics vocational training into a good paying job (at the time) with the phone company (remember when all telcom was simply 'the phone company'?).
One big difference though is the lack of unions in IT. Even through crappy economic times and corporate changes my father and friends from high school have continued to do alright--not great, but alright.
So you leave this school and get a 30k job (as if) - it's nothing more than slavery. You're just working to make the guys at the top a shitload of money.
O OOOOOM!
<BR>and did you ever consider how some of those people managed to get to that position *without* their daddy's chequebook?
<BR>
<BR>VOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
<BR>(the sound of ambition being thrown out of the window at 300 mph)
<B>note to self:</B> <I>post as html</I>
I must applaud this school, and Red Hat for their efforts. I wish they did this 9 years ago when I was at school! I know of several schools in my area offering MCSE and Cisco certifications as well.
I hope that the school is encouraging the kids to use this new knowlege as a jumpstart into college. Kids: $30,000 a year may sound like a lot when you're living with your parents but it's nothing once you have a mortgage and hungry mouths to feed! With a college degree you can command a much higher salary [1].
A college placement is much easier to come by if you can say you obtained Linux certs in school and it'll give you a huge advantage over the other students.
In writing this comment I have had one thought though. When are High Schools going to start teaching kids how to read, write and do arithmetic? I know plenty of people WITH high school dipolmas who can't spell, can barely read and need a calculator for basic arithmetic.
[1] I'm also hoping that by the time current high school students graduate college the economical climate will have improved and jobs will become available for them.
30k out of HS with a RHCE? Yeah, smoke some more.
I have a 2-year degree, a brace of 4-year degrees, and as many Linux certs (LCP and LCA), as well as 8 years experience as a firmware engineer, and still can't get a tech job.
Oh, wait, did the article forget to mention that McDonald's has started accepting an RHCE in place of sending management candidates to Hamburger U? Silly me. Must have missed that.
Either that, or RedHat will hire them as instructors to spread their certs-in-HS program to other places. LinuxGruven, anyone?
this comment has already been made....
I make that in retail computer sales at 21 while going to college in my spare time. Heck, one of the women I work with makes over $50,000.
You should have ventured more around your school, other than the library.
An engineer? What kind? Mechanical? Electrical? Give me the type please.
There are very few jobs that you get right out of college paying 50k a year, I don't care what your GPA was, if you were student body pres, or blew the dean of men.
I have 13 years tech experience, plus an IS degree, and two years doing tech work in Latin America(speak fluent spanish) I just got a job pulling 42 grand a year with full benefits. AND I AM DAMN GLAD OF IT. The job is in Louisiana where the cost of living is dirt ass cheap, so it is like 55 any where else.
My friends who become engineers all, got jobs making 25-30k when they started out, and these are guys with GPAS from great school.
A college degree does not guarantee you a 50k job, nor does a masters.
And I hate to say it, but all my jobs looked at past projects and years on the job. Though the degree does open a lotta doors.
A college graduate with a good 8 years under his built might make 50.
You need a reality check.
Puto
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
I've seen tons of places that want help desk monkeys with degrees. Its really that hard to follow the answer tree? The only people who tend to be any good are the ones who do computers for a hobby, so its clear they have a thorough understanding. Theres no shortage of people with 4 year degrees who are utter dumbasses too. My old boss had a PhD in physics and still didn't understand why square pegs don't fit in round holes.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
"$30,000 a year may sound like a lot when you're living with your parents but it's nothing once you have a mortgage and hungry mouths to feed!"
Don't be a mindless breeder and let someone else worry about property taxes and maintenance, i.e. rent a place. You'll have plenty of money then.
Training these kids is cool, but don't brainwash them to think they can get a job out of high school. They need more education, and more experience. Can you imagine one of these poor kids dealing with a outage and some suit breathing down their neck. There is far more than having a handful of technical knowledge. Got to know how to handle the whole situation.
Train them and tell them they have a step ahead of others when they go on to college. Don't tell them they are ready for the real world.
This is similar to Microsoft giving "free" software to schools: it misguides kids into an inferior OS and hooks them when they're still young. Instead, we need to spread the word that FreeBSD is the truly free technically superior operating system of choice. There's no need for linux to keep reinventing what's already done better in BSD.
Hate to brag, but I just gradute (less than a year ago), my GPA was under 3.0, and I'm making more than you...I'm a EE, i did HF stuff in undergrad mostly, yeah, i guess you were right about the 50 grand, but wait, my friend got a job doing digital circuit something or another and he's making over 20 grand more than you, oh and he graduated same time as me...
If they want to make a living, and dont plan on going to college/university, their better off learning a trade down in the shop wing.
They're much more likely to be brought on as a carpenters/plumbers/welders/machinists apprentice than get a job in an office. They put in their dues on the jobsite, and can wind up a very well paid craftsman.
A lot of companies are giving up on certifications like this. Many more are looking for people with actual skills with computers and administration. You should be able to hand your IT guy a manual and he should be able to figure out the nuances of the system.
These children are being done a disservice by this. It's no different than the 'get Microsoft certified and make $50,000 a year' ads blaring on the radio.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
"Sam's Club, the members-only branch of retail giant Wal-Mart, has entered the budget PC race with a $299 system running Red Hat's version of the Linux operating system.
Help fight continental drift.
my highschool had 2 year Cisco program that started my junior year. I wanted to take it but had a class conflict. In the end it worked out for the best that i didn't take it because it was a 2 year waste of time.
the instructor was the auto teacher who went through a 6 week course to teach a 2 year program. Any time a student had a question, the teacher didn't have a clue. After 2 years, not a single student was able to pass the certification test, or even think it was worth it to try.
I got a part time job working the help desk at a local ISP/website development/network administration company my senior year. after working there for 4 months i knew more about router configurations than any of my friends in the 'holy' Cisco program. You can see why i feel highschool programs are bullshit now.
Applying this to the Red Hat situation, Unless red hat hired and is paying the instructor, its going to be some math teacher, or shop teacher who got a book and a boot camp and he/she will be lost and the kids' time would be better spent reading stuff off of the internet durning a study hall.
I think this is good. The youth have had
Microsoft and Apple experience, why not
introduce a few of the next generation programmers
to what will be one of the competing desktops.
Hopefully an electronic ethics course comes
along with it all these computer classes
generally speaking.
hahha suckas!!! i graded a 1.5 years ago. and i'm banking 6 figures with gpa of below 2.5 doing java. hahahah of course, cost of living where i'm at makes my salary like 30k :(
I think he's talking about RPI/Princeton/MIT engineering grads, not Run-of-the-mill State U. engineering grads (just as good, but doesn't have an impressive pedigree). If you look at the average salaries (reported) by these, and other fine institutions, you'll find placements around $48-55,000.
I have a RHCE, experience, and I can't get a job. Thanks redhat.
The name sticks: RedHat Certified Engineer!
The name is savily between cultures...not a whitehat, not a blackhat; we are RedHat!
The ceritification delves its applicants into traditional Unix integration: RedHat Certified Engineer!
It isn't a training program that holds you by the mouse and walks you through a well-lit room: RedHat Certified Engineer!
Whoever those lucky-bastards in that small town are, they better have a good Trekkar fanclub because if they don't then there is no reason for them to brag!
Now when I'm at a local mall payphone holding my data aquisition and abstraction terminal, people would not need to ask what I'm doing: "hey, by the looks of that badge on this trekkar cadet's uniform, he must be one of those far-out RHCE's that is here to re-allign the building's energy-field matrix to a more optimum dispertion."
But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
With this type of scenario if it actually pans out we have the Las Vegas effect. Droves of people with decent paying jobs but little or no education (college wise), and a community demanding that people be educated and attend college.
Why, when you get out of H.S. and work 4 years starting at $30K you still make more than your college counterpart in the long run?
And here I was planning on graduating this year!
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
this training normally would cost more than $10,000. But Weaver students can get Red Hat certification free
"Step away from that network server, I am certified... I SUMMON THE VAST POWERS OF CERTIFICATION... Well this is embarrassing, thats all I remember from the classes." - Dilbert
We've got more than a handful of MCSEs and a CNE that can serve as proof that certification is mostly a waste.
ffs when will all this certification = good jobs crap end. it takes experiance too!! all these kids and noobies with a few shitty academic qualifications can't do jack-shit in the real world straight out of high school and they should stop stealing out jobs! argh!
It seems to me as long as they hold msft in their retirement accounts, redhat would have a difficult sell to schools, eh?
I was doing tech support at a local startup (this was in '96-'97), and started studying on my own for the MCSE. The first few tests I studied for were reading the NT 4 Server Resource kit. After graduation, I landed a summer internship at Citrix, and finished my MCSE (the last test was on break during freshman year).
:)
:)
I used that to leverage interviews and offers that made my friends at school jealous, and this was at MIT, they weren't slouches. One interviewer freshman year asked if I was graduating in the spring, and was quite disappointed when I explained that I was a freshman looking for an internship (then she saw the education line on my resume).
I pimped the MCSE and Citrix CCA (easy to pick up after working in Citrix's tech support department for 3 months) to get great jobs through the dot-com era. It was nice that when my friends were scrounging for money to buy shitty beer, the girls were impressed with my fully stocked liquor cabinet of premium stuff.
I turn 24 in a few weeks, run my own business, getting married this summer, and generally have my life together. The last of the credit card debts from starting a business are getting repaid, and things are going well. Take away the MCSE, and instead of getting good jobs as internships, I'm UROPing (undergrad research, most of which is just bitch work for $8/hr), and just getting my act together in the corporate world.
I dealt with clients, managed a team, and generally acquired a lot of experience while in school. Didn't cost me my "youth" either, I managed to be social chair of my fraternity among other experiences. Getting job skills in school is critical.
Hell, if I had stayed with Citrix like my HS drop-out friend that got me the job did, I'd also have a house and car from cashing in my stock options.
Skills are good, learn them. They don't replace a liberal arts education for personal growth and knowledge, but they can get you an opportunity to get rewarding summer jobs, instead of menial ones. Being a broke college student sucks, I was happier making $35/hr part time as a Citrix/MS geek than $8/hr cleaning test tubes in a lab.
Alex
or am I right when I think you could make 30K at Walmart?
This
Well the nice lil State U. I graduated from (well actually its rather big) got ranked higher than any of those u mentioned in the enginnering field...
It still sounds like indoctrination to me. Probably the most deeply seated in the history in the war for computing mindshare. MS does nothing like this. Apple just offers hardware discounts... but training kids and "guaranteeing" them jobs? That's fucking twisted. I can't even imagine what the /. thread would look like if "Redhat" were replaced with "Microsoft".
First, I don't smoke anything. I have to pass drug tests for my jobs. Second, I am now graduating with a PhD in Electrical Engineering with a specialization in photonics. I have turned down 2 $70k+ job offers already. I am now trying to decide between jobs that are offering $80k-$100k. Getting good grades and putting in long hours does not necessarily correlate to how productive or successful someone will be. I know several graduate students who have a very high GPA, but when it comes to doing something real (i.e. not a homework problem), they flounder. Conversely, I know several people who do not have a great GPA, but they do have a desire to be as good as they can be. These are the people who don't have problems finding a job because they do 10 times more than what is asked of them. You say to get a reality check, but everybody I know is not having any problems getting a job now.
...in reference to those that are too stupid to realize one is not required to have children in order to have sex.
The penal >> vaginal boxen linking is very nice. Why mess it up by breeding a brood of screaming whelps?
but the luckiest of all are those kids studying under the Woz....
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
I go to school several minutes away from Weaver, Weaver is a school our students can go to for certain classes, like this one. I never thought I'd see a story on Slashdot about my school, and a link to our local newspaper!
;)
My life is now complete.
you sir, are an idiot.
xao
xao
http://TheHillforum.hopto.org
A college degree does not guarantee you a 50k job, nor does a masters.
No, it does not guarantee anything. On the other hand, should you find a job in some engineering fields on graduation, the average starting salary IS $50K. For example, the AICHE reports that the 2002 average starting salary for various engineering professions was:
* Chemical Engineering: $51,254
* Electrical Engineering: $50,387
* Mechanical Engineering: $48,654
A college graduate with a good 8 years under his built might make 50.
After 8 years of experience most engineers have been promoted twice and would expect a 30% increment at least over a fresh out of college employee. That would put such a person the the range of $65-70K.
Seeu rveys /CareerSurveyReport2002.html
t .h tml
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/career/data/s
Last year's CS average was $62K for a bachelor's degree at Princeton. At MIT, it was about $60K.
http://web.mit.edu/career/www/salary/sal2002-dp
Is that with a BS/B.Eng. or an MS/M.Eng.?
Why Fucking don't Fucking you Fucking leave Fucking this Fucking site.
Oh wait, you trolls have no life but bitching and posting to slashdot.
A lot of posters have commented that they belive that it's "too young" to be learning this stuff and be "shipped off" to a job. As a high school student myself (14), I really disagree.
:(
Getting certification does not mean that one can need not go to college. However, gaining skills and then applying them, typically in a job-like setting, offers a huge set of advantages.
Internship opportunities allow you to actually _use_ these skills and do something productive with your time. Imagine if all the "14 year-old script kiddies" could put their hacking skills to use on something, whether it be Cisco routers or adding features to samba (just to name a random project). OSS gives great amounts of opportunities for students to apply their technology skills in a productive way, but this isn't enough.
Schools need to help students learn these skills and give them opportunities to use them. Would I have survived 8th grade had I not been running the lighting and sound for nearly all school productions and maintaining the school website? Probably not. Besides, it's clear that it is "fun" to crack into various systems, but what if that could be done in a productive way too? That's just what I did last week when I (at the request of the technology department) discovered that my school's security model resembles swiss cheese (I'm still trying to get them away from Windows...
Furthermore, there are some situations where just working on random hacking projects won't do. This is where an internship comes in handy: being able to apply your skills in some sort of useful way while learning. Here, there are no real expectations that you have to know how to do this or that, just lots of abilities to learn new things and try them out.
If anything, schools need to do more to encourage students to get involved in the field. Have students be working on something productive, whether it is building cgi scripts for the school website to working as an intern for the summer (or even for a two-week break), and you will see a group of students that are more prepared to face the world and have a thirst to learn more: exactly what is provided by a college education. You may even see a few less students smiling smugly when you discover that the school website was cracked yet again.
This has to be tps12's new trolling account.
No, I think you're the one off the mark.
In '97, average starting salary for a BS in Mech. Eng. was something like 38k from my school (though several ppl I knew *started* mid forties). In 99 (granted, already during the boom), a BS in Mech. Eng. was *starting* easily above 50K/yr.
I can't imagine anyone starting at 25k with a college degree in engineering: at least, certainly not where I've lived.
Here, check out this site (the first succesful Google hit):
http://web.mit.edu/career/www/salary.html
It's a list of salaries compiled for 2002.
Scroll down for a discipline / advanced degree / salary breakdown.
I will say this: it looks like the survey is voluntary, so ppl with the big time offers are more likely to respond to the survey, so the averages are probably high, but still nowhere near 25k for starting with a bachelors in an engineering discipline.
So, there's the Masters, and there's the accompanying 50k+ salaries.
So, not fanciful after all, huh?
My college is in the top 20 in computer science. We learn nothing but programming and programming methodology. We learn jack about networking, except the vocabulary, and this skimming approach has hurt recent graduates. In response to the complaints of graduates, they began to offer a Unix system admin course, which they plan on "temporarily retiring" because of budget cuts. Funny seeing that this course has the highest demand at the 400 level and isn't even required.
Everything I learned about OSS is self-taught. We learn Oracle, I go out and learn MySQL too. I spend hours tinkering with Linux, practicing for the real world. I agree that theories should prevail; but when, not if, this is successful at training IT workers, we will see Universities adopt Linux outside of the LUG environment and into the classrooms.
Tech schools are pioneering a lot of technology and many businesses are taking advantage of this. I currently look at my fellow students and can see why so many Universities are struggling to have fresh cpsc grads get jobs. When interning, I have worked with programmers who have never changed out their own RAM; notice, this will change. IMHO community college students are great for both economical and practical real-world purposes. It is sad to say that we are Intel and they are AMD. The only good thing about being Intel is upper management likes a paper tiger and the ladies love how big my pipeline is.
The figure I posted were for BS degrees. Figure 20% more for MS degrees. PhDs are +60% - a PhD ChemE should expect to average about 82K out of school.
This is essientially the same argument as people use for tariffs and protectionism: we should stop other people from being able to do our jobs because we are threatened by competition. You have competition and there is nothing you can do about other people learning the same skills. That's the whole principle of a market economy. This argument is invalid because it helps the economy as a whole to have competition and it must be stopped no matter where it appears or what it supports.
It's funny, some people think $30k isn't anything, others think there's no way a HS grad could pull in $30k right out of HS with a RH cert. I'm going to be 20 years old in a few days, and here is my life in a nutshell. Perhaps it will give someone else insight as to the paths they might take at this early stage in life.
At age 9 I mowed 3-4 lawns a day for a summer and bought my first computer for $400. I hacked on it 24/7. It has been to my benefit, IMO, that I have never been big on games, because boy are they a waste of time. I did a lot of QBASIC.
I got my first job at a small (10 person) startup IT consulting firm at age 15, broke all child labor laws working 60-80 hrs a week (by choice mind you), and made $8/hr. My 1 year raise was $.25/hr. A few months later, I got knocked up to $9/hr. During this time I did mainly VB programming. At this point, the company fired their router guy, so I jumped right in and filled the gap. I soon obtained my CCNA and soon after ask for, and recieved, a salary of $32,000, before my 17th birthday.
I then obtained my MCP because we were a Windows shop. I was still at this point 50/50 programmer/tech. I couldn't decide what my pasion was for. IT company started going downhill, a few days before my 19th bday I baled and got a job at a financial institution - titled 'network technician' on a team of about 4 techs, however I am the network administrator by any definition, I have the responsibility (but not the title) of the security administrator, as well as Exchange administrator (to my agony). I just obtained my MCSA as part of my job objectives for the last 6 month period. At this point I am making $42,000.
I took 12 credit hours at a community college back when I was 16, and am realizing now that especially in the field of network security a degree is important not just for the piece of paper to show the suits, but anyone really does benefit from the well-rounded education you get along the way. I intend to continue attending university part time for as long as it takes. I love my job, my hobby. I am now purchasing a house, enjoying being married, and looking forward to every day I get to go to work, and excited that I have the oppourtunity continue my college education...
tick tock tick tock tick tock ...
I am only in the 10th grade and I know I wouldnt take this class even if it was offered to me. I knox enough to test out of the certification (well maybe not fn rh). But, I know I would not take it, its just a waste of my time. I'll get paid about 4 times as much straight outa college majoring in eecs (electrical engineering and computer science). If you really wanna learn computers dont go for some pos 'commercial' linux system. Go out and learn how to make your own system. Maybe you can have a certification course some day :P
As a second year law student who did a internship this year I can tell you that shitty lawyers start out at 50k while good corporate lawyers (you MUST go to a top 20 school and do WELL on the BAR) are making 100-120k straight out of law school. Its another 3 years of your life, but its worth it. My first year I dont remember sleeping and I didnt get laid once, but its still worth it.
Seriously, however, nobody is going to pay an 18 year old $30k/yr. It wasnt until recently that I have been able to make good money, because most corporate people dont promote or pay well "youngsters" (unless they are bullshitters with an MBA). Lucky for me the men in my family get grey hair early.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
I suppose that we are showing our age by admitting that we had Apple II's for school, ah but those were the days. I was about one of the only kids in our school that had an Apple IIe at home and thus was very proficient in all the user apps.
Of course, we all learned how to use Apple DOS (both 3.3 and ProDOS) - we^H^Hthe rest of the class did this for a solid month, during which time I was permitted to play Choplifter, Cannonball Blitz, and Ultima V because I already knew how to use Dos... which *really* pissed the rest of the class off...
One other geek kid in our school had a hacked wizardry disk full of elite items, so all you had to do was roll a char with good base attributes and then load up on the uber gear. Eventually, the game crashed and it showed code. This peaked my interest in programming and thus learned pascal, because the turtle language that they were teaching wasn't doing much for me.
Boy, those guys at Microsoft sure know how to make great software.
Windows 2003 Server will Destroy Linux.
We had Linux, but the Slapper worm killed us, now we are a full Windows shop.
I installed Windows 2003 Server, did benchmark tests, compared IIS6 to Apache, Windows 2003 to Linux.
IIS6 won on Security, Stability, Performance, speed and Everything else you can think about, it made Apache look like shiit, and that's exactly what it is, SHIIT.
Talk about stability? Nasdaq's Web Server is a beta of Windows 2003 Server. Many other sites are also running their web site on the beta of 2003, cause it's so scalable and stable, more than what I can say for IIS5 and Apache.
CowboyNeal and I are from the same town!
KNEEL BEFORE ME
all we need now is for all the high school kids to move to the bay area to add to the pool of overqualified out of work techies.
Dont overlook a college education or you'll end up like those whiny guys on craigslist.
--
|-_-| . o O ( bEef!)
All your IT jobs are belong to India now anyhow!
India ownz j00
Yes, a degree is a piece of paper. A piece of paper that represents experience, technical fortitude, and problem solving. ( it depends of where you get the education ) I'm grossly tired of many slashdotters denotting ALL degrees/certifications as useless. That is not true in ALL cases. There are some programs or educational facilities that just want your money. However, most colleges or cerification programs that I have seen are worth taking. In certain situations it is not possible to teach your self how everything works because your can't afford the equipment, books, or understand the material. Colleges, for a modest fee (tuition) will let you play with VERY expensive equipment. Thus you gain experience. I agree experience it better than book knowledge. College is about both. The two interplay nicely to create a rounded employee, not some drone. Certifications are ok, degrees are good, and experience is best, but I believe all three are necessary. You can't rely on just one. Honestly, I have never seen any corporation that expects their employees to know everything and have experience in everything. Most of the corporate life is on the job training. In the end, the most imporant lesson is learn how to learn. Experience won't help in every situation, nor will a cert or a degree. But knowing how to learning will always be there to solve any problem.
God, I hope they don't advertise the $30000 salary right out of high school too much. Kids should want to take this class to learn the stuff, not to make $30k the next year. Because it just isn't that much, and there isn't that much potential for a higher salary for someone who takes a job straight out of high school.
This sounds like a good way for a lot of promising young kids to get absolutely screwed (and not in the good way that most of them wouldn't mind).
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
I'm sorry, but if you have 13 years of experience and an IS degree, you must either NOT know how to do your job well, NOT have any ambition, NOT be very smart, NOT have any professional contacts, or you are simply retarded. I was able to pull well over your amount with an IT job right out of college without an engineering degree. Experience and connections mean a lot - but 13 years and only $42k? Give me a break.
Story got rejected, eh? :)
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
Memorize this:
The United States is the world's largest super power. If they went around dropping mustard gas on civilians, that would be bad.
But since Iraq isn't the world's largest super power, it's ok if they do such things.
The situation for the MIT EE/CS people I know is comparable. I have two friends who are MIT course 6 class of 2001 who were making 80k-100k the year they graduated.
Part of the key is being able to do more than just write code. If all you can do is write code, you are going to be perceived as providing only so much value to most companies. If you can write and speak and explain well, and demonstrate the ability to think abstractly and solve problems and interact well with people, you can command a higher salary and be in a growth track job (to technical leadership or management roles). Anyway, just something to keep in mind.
Well, how many people have a degree from harvard Princeton, MIT, Yale? I mean that is not a fair reply. As the URL you posted are salaries offered to MIT graduates. The best of the best but hardly fair numbers to throw at the real world.
Also these days companies will go after the graduates than experienced people. You have to pay the experienced people more.
When you are younger you will take less cash. You are happy to be on the job, doing what you like, you do not think of car, home family, at 21 as you do 35+.
I should have made myself a little clearer as well.
1. In many disciplines it is hard to get a job these days. Not just engineering.
2. Tech is rough right now. You can see the posts on slashdot. Hard to find a job.
I was making 55 in 1996, sitting on my hands bossing script kiddies. Good money in New Orleans then. And as a single guy I was loaded. 3 bedroom apartment cost me a 1000 a month with utils. Plus broadband free. I had about 3 grand a month to burn on booze and broads.
I live in La cause the cost of living is low, and well I like it. Easy going people..
Fast forward 99, bottom falls out. I am working for Verio, making loot. But was disastisfied with the corporate culture. Took a job managing a large bar in the French Quarter. 42 a year. Still decent money, not really a pay cut cause I ate and drank free 5 days a week.
2000 moved to Colombia. Taught English and did tech.
2002 came home. Loafed for a year, did odd tech jobs, got the skills back.
So now I just grabbed a job making 42 a year. Well, three bedroom apartment, nice side of town(small town in La now) 675 a month. Same thing in San Diego 2000 if not more. All told got about 2 grand a month to play with after taxes and rent and food. Work pays for broadband.
So I i pinch the pennies I can save 24k a year. A nice little sum. Wait, my wife works she makes 40. We clip 20 off that to savings. Puts me 44k in the bank.
Oops, I made 25 grand this year doing networks and some retainers off of websites. Thans makes close to 70k we have saved. In one year, and we live high off the hog, wear nice clothes, spoil our selves rotten. From tech friend in Austin, Seattle, and Cali, they come to see me and they got the big jobs with the big names. They tell me my standard of living is 200% better than theirs.
But hell I only make 42k a year, so people on Slashdot can rag me cause of my low end job. And with my extra work I pull in 67 a year. Not too shabby.
I guess my point is that 50k jobs are few and far between upon grad, unless you go to a big name school. And reading big name school salary surveys don't mean shit.
I went to a school with only 7k students in the asshole of the swamp.
Don't mean to rant.
Puto
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
so this is just classes to qualify as college credit..
I do not know why you people are complaining..each student if they take advantage of training on Red Hat Linux and Cisco is probably saving themselves a year in college in college costs through loans..
It snot liek they are entering the job market right after this traing as they lack the practical exp on the job..
Basically those hs course qualify fro credit on the CLEP right?
Next you people would have HS chemistry outlawed because we learn how to blow things up..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Only superpower.
The United States is the world's largest super power. If they went around dropping mustard gas on civilians, that would be bad.
And it -was- bad when the U.S. government used civilians as ignorant test subjects for radiological experiments. Here's one of many links that can be found on the subject. For more simply type "u.s. radiological experiments on civilians" into google. I think you're trying to say that people think it's ok for Iraq to use chemical weapons against civilians. You're dumb. Next time think harder.
...the last 200 million workers that thought they could get the same respect without a college education have since learned differently. You might be able to climb onto the ladder of career advancement, but you'll find out soon enough that climbing up gets harder the farther you try to go without paper. Not all jobs are about the job itself...a career means change and advancement...advancement means higher skills...higher skills means higher education.
Of course there are exceptions, but the routine is harsh enough that no one can say with confidence that a paper chase won't matter. The world's workforce should be proof enough.
yes, i accept that not selecting "HTML Formatted" after entering html to denote quote (see ) was a particularly idiotic thing to do.
I felt it was a fair point to say that it is still possible to start from scratch and get oneself to a decent commanding position through hard work and intelligence. Plenty of people have done it, and still do.
And I also think it's fair to say that many people are unfairly resigning themselves to feeling downtrodden and unambitious.
just my $0.02
<B>note to self:</B> <I>post as html</I>
The current state of affairs in the US job market and issues of education are quite troubling. It definately is not book learning that should get you your job and you should not be concerned with such and should go and learn for the experience and for personal reasons. People who are sucessful are not sucessful as a result of their education but rather their ability outside technical issues, it is an innate drive to suceed, take risks, and not allowing ones self to be dominated by superiors. This is what is widely misunderstood about the corporate world, it is not about what you know but how you can apply it and manipulate the system to your favor. I definately advocate that we rid ourselves of the idea that college is a must and come to the realization that education does not equate to success. I can tell you as a student I see many people very technically skilled that will generally be slaved by the corporations and others who are not as technically skilled but generally are better equiped to deal with corporate structure. Out of high school low level jobs and apprenticeships are a must to elevate your position, I also believe college students do not see enough in field experience. It is a joke I am an engineer who knows more about finance than many business majors, people who do not know what municipal bonds or libor are.
In end I do not feel any kind of education readies you for a career, it can help but nothing changes innate ability and the need to experience the corporate world. Honestly if I was paying big money for a Sys Admin I personally would take a person with 10 years experience than someone with an IT degree from an accredited 4 year university.
and sure, for the students it is free, but for the schools it is 35-40 thousand dollars. That is BIG bucks for a school district. (At least it is for mine.) Why not give the whole program to the schools for almost nothing (Like MS did with office 5-6 years ago) and then teh kids will want it when they get out of school. Then when they got those $30K/year jobs they can pay for their own personal liscence.
Bottom line: too damn expensive for schools.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
My high school was ahead of pretty much every school in the area in starting up a CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate) program. In fact, we were the first high school in the world to use the new Cisco Curriculum or something last year. However, the program is only as good as the students. You can't take your typical pretty girl who only uses her computer for AIM, Word, and browsing to routing guru over the course of the program (and our program was four literal semesters, two years). It just doesn't happen. The students should have a good grasp of the concepts they're going over and most of all, want to learn. I'm probably one of the few who actually got something out of the program.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
First off, does Red Hat have any concrete advantages over other *NIXen for systems administration? Don't sell your personal favorite, just state the facts, please. :)
Second, does the Red Hat certification training provide reasonably bias-free instruction in regards to different *NIXen?
The second is far more relevant then the first, but I'm curious about both.
--
est modus in rebus
I am definately studing to be an engineers and let me tell you we get screwed way too much, and it is not the corporate world so much as the engineers. My sister just graduated with a degree in marketing from a good university and makes $45,000 a year doing a job she says a monkey can do, plus full healthcare and benefits. I intimately know what her job consists of and would fully expect and engineer to make more money then her but most do not. I also know of a company which I have done some IT consulting that employs an uneducated property manager who makes more money that a qualified, certified, experienced, well educated and very smart civil engineer. Ludicrous but true, first tip is always underpromise then over deliver, do not appear to be motivated to suceed you are a risk to your boss who you are smarter than. Act like you are supremely important to business and it will seem that way. Make buddies with people higher than your direct boss. Skills mean shit it is all about manipulation, it is amaizing how smart some people are but they are unable to land a good job.
People just do not get it, they do not understand the amount of sucessfull people who are either shrewd or total babbling idiots. It is not about skill but percieved value.
if us eecs majors were smart we would be in the business school because they get paid mad money for less work.
Before we start shouting about how kids should go to college, or how Redhat is indoctrinating their pliable minds, let's try to view the situation as it is. The kids are going to learn some things about network administration.. granted not as much as they would in the real world, but certainly more than I know. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but someone who's learned redhat admin should be able to use any linux system(such that you can learn from a class). It looks as though they will get some linux exposure. I agree with those who say that the promise of a certain salary should be thrown out the window. Kids should take the class to learn linux/networks, not to replace college, but there certainly are good things about this. When I was in school I had two options for computer classes. I could take business classes for the PC(Windows), or for the Mac. I chose the PC because I could fiddle with them more... but they wouldn't let me fiddle. They kicked me out several times for writing QBasic programs instead of doing my MS Works homework(even though I did enough to come out with an A). I started programming in C and got kicked out because they got a virus and I was the only one who knew how to write one. The only virus I ever wrote was really lame(it just copied to command.com and sent random junk to random ports) and I certainly never ran it on a school computer. We had a Novell network that they wouldn't let me mess with. I had to write a login patch to get the labtech password. I couldn't even use the library computer.. I had to bring a boot disk to get past their lame menu program so I could write my pathetic programs. All this trouble just because I wanted to make circles move around. If I had the oportunity to learn I might have been able to actually do something useful. The point I'm trying to make is that at least this will allow the kids to fiddle with something they normally wouldn't fiddle with.
My Blog
But don't expect 30K a year right away, especially not in this economy.
Get some experience too in any way you can!
StarTux
Dude, i graduated college w/ a business degree, got a tech job as a computer operator for 40k (2000), after 1 1/2 months, promoted to Jr. solaris admin for 50k, now i have a mid level title and am at 55k (will be at 60k in less than 1 year from now). This is S. Cal.
I'd be pissed if i were u. In LA, Sr. sysadmins, w/ 10+ years experience will get 85-100k+ easy.
anyways.
We had a computer in every classroom at my school...which sat there doing absolutely nothing (these where all Apple IIEs, and most of them didn't work).
I was fortunate enough to have one teacher who saw my lust for the knowledge about computers and let me do a workbook about computers for extra credit in the fifth grade. When I had a question, the teacher would let me go see the assistant principal, who was the most knowledgable person in the school in math and technical fields (small elementary school, about 20 teachers, and 3 administrators). So I did the workbook and learned flowcharts, order of operations, and Apple BASIC (on paper), and of course all that silly basic stuff, like what all the "modern" peripherals where (keyboard, tape drive, floppy drive, joystick, printer, monitor, koala pad, and cartridge). Absolutely NOT the learning by playing around with the boxes.
That summer I joined a program where we had access to actual computers, and I was WAY ahead of the curve. If you want to know something badly enough, any gem of knowledge will be sought preciously, no matter how it is gained. Still...I wonder how much I'd know now if I'd had an actual computer back then when I wanted to know about them more than I wanted anything else.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
This will be a good jump point at best. Linux has made such a strong push the last couple years that I would venture to say that the RHSE rush will rival the MCSE rush. Everyone I talk to has a damn MCSE but no job. Mainly because the big layoffs, and lack of experience. You need more than certs, you need experience dealing with the b0x that abends, the user that can't connect, the SAMBA box that won't start because you left the damn RH updater on ...
But I am just a new /. user trying to kill time ...
Wish we could get some information on how many of those things they do sell. Must be doing fairly ok since they continue to expand the Linux offering.
Help fight continental drift.
If this high school is anything like the one I went to, I'm pretty sure that being in the Linux club is a sure fire way to get your ass kicked.
I don't know what dickhead posted this as offtopic, but you're dead right. People like you and me come from the real world, where you take whatever lousy school gives you a scholarship. Maybe the rest of these assholes went to Yale b/c they're a fucking legacy, but the rest of us had to work to get to where we are.
Also, there's NO WAY A H.S. GRAD SHOULD MAKE 30K! That's what has FUCKED over the job market in this goddamn industry.
Good thing I scored a 178 on the LSAT, so I can get the hell out of this sinking ship.
I'm from Europe. I make little over $30 k a year, and pay about 30 % in taxes (plus various other stuff, such as mandatory pension payment kind of thing). What's the tax rate there?
And I thought all
Why I say that ?
Because instead of answering my (new to Linux) questions, some moderator modded my post as flamebait !!! That's ridiculous (unless they had a bad day with boss or wife)...
Anyways, would any
Thanks.
If I remember, MS used to make a specific point about their MCSEs needing less qualification and thus less pay than Linux admins. Perhaps this is just Redhat's way of countering that--Get intelligent high school kids who can get the job done adequately into the job market without a degree and suddenly total cost of ownership drops like a brick.
Absolutely.
In the UK, where you'd expect semi-similar salarys, I've been out of university 18months, and I'm on £15k (maybe $24k). Of the people I know in my graduating class, that's about on a par. Off hand I can list £12k/£14k/£14k for others.
When did it become acceptible to use public schools as a marketing arm of large corporations. It is really getting out of hand...advertising spamming the walls...for-profit vending machines...now indocronation into another vendor's software package.
Wake up, smell the coffee (or all of you blinded by the fact that it's linus?). Keep the schoold free of corporate influence and special-interest education!
As someone who lives here and owns a business in Guilford county, I have reservations about finding students to pass the certification. NC ranks 37th in the US for quality schools, and the Greensboro area itself is far from the best the state offers. Its not a matter of kids not being smart, its a matter of politics ruining a school system. We see both high school and college kids regularly in our business, and their lack of basic knowlege is disturbing.
Im glad to see Red Hat investing in the future here, just 90 miles from its corporate headquarters, in the Research Triangle.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Get the money first and go back to school later. That's my opinion.
Do not miss your chance at a degree! The working world is a trap just waiting for you. Sure, it's tough coming out of college in serious debt and seemingly little job prospects. Sure, it's tough to swallow just getting out of college and only getting "low" paying jobs, while you see people of similar age getting more money than you because they skipped college and therefore have 4 years more job experience than you.
But don't fall into the trap. Thirty to fifty thousand a year might seem like a lot now, and it is but, look to the future. In 10 or 15 years that won't be much money, at all. As time goes on, you(with a degree) will develop the years of experience. The money will improve and so will your quality of life. You will start a family and put down roots. Your career will grow and grow.
But, those that skipped college will suffer in the long run. They will start out seeming to make more money. But, their career growth will flatten significantly in comparison to a degree holder.
You say they can go back for the degree later. This is true for some people but, for most it is a false hope. These people will start families of their own. (If you think college is expensive, try having kids.) Their careers and families will demand more and more of them. They will be under greater and greater pressure and they will have less and less time to seek their degrees in later life. Not to mention that they will also have the same difficulty financing their studies. College doesn't get cheaper with time and it is even harder to pay for college for yourself while at the same time sending 1.5 children to college.
The fact is that you may be able to start a "high paying" position right now, without a degree but you won't advance much further. However, with the degree, your chances of advancement are MUCH higher as you go through life. In 10 or 15 years the "high paying" career of the non-graduate will not be so high and they will not be able to advance themselves easily. But, the gradute will by then have far surpassed them and will be able to look forward to continued growth throughout their careers.
Don't "get the money now" think in the long term (15+ years) and have a better life overall.
Sounds like crap to me personally. Tell me, who do you work for that pays a 18 year old with a GED 45K a year.
The largest spenging group in the US (or for that matter world economy) based on disposable income are 16-24 year olds. This group also has the highest impact on inflation. If HS students start coming out making $30,000 a year the cost of goods will rise and inflation will kick in to turn that $30,000 a year into min. wage.
Red Hat, is that a brand of condoms?
anybody remember "Buzzard Bait" (for the apple)?
Yes it's offtopic. I have found that trying to get a high Karma score takes work. However I am at work and someone else other than CmdTaco is paying me so I can't devote the time to it.
This is great that students are having the chance to expand their computer skills but the number of high school "graduates" that I see in my general college math classes that can't do 6th grade math (add and subtract negative numbers without a calculator) is shocking.
Granted these are not going to be the same students that are taking Linux classes (I hope) but sometimes I think schools need to focus on the basics.
This is a great program. I wish I would have had the chance to do something besides learn to play Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune in the school's computer lab on an Apple IIe. Vanna, are then any Rs?
I'm glad that future generations of young people won't have to go through the great pains I have just trying to earn a computer related degree.
The massive amounts of inept technology professors in the universities is simply amazing. Out of 4 computer classes this semester, ZERO that's 0 of my instructors actually hold a computer related degree. It is a sad state of affairs.
At least these students can come away with something of real value without waisting the time and money that "great" universities like Penn State require.
www.GamezCore.com For Hardcore PS2 Gamerz : By Hardcore PS2 Gamerz
Hope this doesn't devalue my MCSE cert. :)
There are 01 kinds of cars in the world. The General Lee, and everything else.
Now Im no RHCE, I might be good enough to be, who knows. After tiring of cheezy office clerical jobs I thought I might as well go and get Linux+ certified and see what happens, I might at least be able to get a less-cheezy level 1 tech support position, I mean I live in the 3rd largest city in one of the most technologically advanced nations of the world, Chicago, surely I could help people set up thier internet accounts over the phone! In about 8 months of searching and submitting resumes for practically EVERY tech support/pc repair position posted at every major newspaper website and places like monster, hotjobs, I have not recieved 1 phone call for an interview, not 1! I know Linux+ is entry level, but that is all I was looking for in a job anyway,and I do not have money for Redhat testing anyway. I thought the linux+ "vendor neutral" stance was cool too. Employers seem to be looking for people with ridiculous qualifications for entry level positions, its like asking for 5 years exp stacking boxes of a stock boy, come on now. Well anywho, I live in a big city and I cant even get 1 phone call, I doubt very much these kids are going to be making big money right outta high school. I mean for gods sake when you search for linux at monster.com in Chicago, you get job postings from MICROSOFT looking for advocacy people! Times are hard!
When I was in high school, they seemed to fear *nix and students that wanted to learn about it. "Telnetting" was forbidden, and a terminal window would get your privileges revoked. At one point we were allowed to have our on Linux server which we used to learn how firewalls, web servers, networking, and the like all worked, but they canned that program and took on a "anything-we-don't-understand-is-bad" philosophy. Good to see the high school education available is improving.
Marketing group has brilliant idea:
Lets flood the work force with cheap some what skilled admins. Companies will then be more open to running our system and not have to worry about paying 100k out to admins.
Woo Hoo we win screw everyone else
You sound like an arrogant prick.
Hmm, normally I would ignore a comment like that, but between it and getting modded as flamebait, I have to ask (and hope you'll respond), why do you say that?
I tend to use sarcasm a bit heavily, but I though it clear enough I meant that post (at least the second half) as largely humorous.
My qualifications I described accurately... Didn't mean to brag, just establishing that I do have some credibility when it comes to IT.
The comment about "Hamburger U", well, they actually *DO* call it that, and believe it or not, many people consider it one of the better business schools in the country.
As for not finding a job reflecting on my personality, I get along rather well with people... Just not many jobs to apply for. Of the 20+ I've applied for (in IT) in the past half year, I've gotten callbacks on five (I doubt you can attribute my social skills to not getting jobs that never bothered contacting me)... Two I lacked a critical skill for (MS SQL, and they wouldn't accept PostgreSQL or MySQL as a substitute), one used the "overqualified" line I've grown to hate (from the far-more-than-20 non-tech jobs I've applied for in the same time), and two I actually interviewed for and *got*, sorta, but they chose "not to fill the position at this time" (one laid off a third of its staff a month later).
So as much as everyone keeps telling me "If you have the skills, you can still get a tech job", I'd like to see them prove it. Perhaps if I lived in metro Boston or New York. But I don't.
lol, you don't "believe" me? Where have you been for the past 10 years? How long have you been in the tech field? I don't think it's that far-fetched in this industry.
you were referring to his sig. In that case, flame on!
you were replying to his sig, in which case: Flame on!
How is this relevant to the rest of your story? Who cares what kind of alcohol you had? Goodness, you are full of yourself.
Yes, schools need to do more to encourage students to learn; that's what school really teaches. If you learn the mental discipline to teach yourself instead of waiting to be handed the project or lesson plan, your learning will be based solely on desire and not by necessity.
No one ever succeeded in life by waiting for hand-outs; sometimes, you have to take the initiative. While I do think that more honest computing should occur within high-school curricula, I do not agree that it is this panacea you claim it will be. Nor do I agree that pubescent script-kiddieism has anything to do with "hacking skills"; rather, more often than not it's the same kinds of kids who let the air out of your bike tires or put "kick me" signs on your back. The only people who do that are either your best friends pranking you, or the bullies you've somehow managed to irritate. Neither case warrants being labeled as the enlightened state of mind you seem to believe the kiddies posess.
I honestly didn't get into anything technically oriented until I started college; I'd been a molecular bio geek before that (some change, huh?). The difference was that I did it because I found it interesting, I had a head for it, and it was fun! Now I just started a job in MIS support (it's not apps dev, but the industry's a bit slow out here right now). However, I'm actually in the process of working with Red Hat a bit right now on Advanced Server; there seems to be an issue with tty* bindings that actually didn't show up in the mainline releases. Not a bad gig at all, but it was because I loved what I did and made sure I found the proper learning to get there (and no, not all college education prepares you for a job; the ones who get hired are the ones who learn outside of the classroom).
Stay motivated and stick with it because you want to. Part of what makes programming, designing, engineering, and hacking so enjoyable is that it's something you control completely; sometimes you may be given a guideline as to what's expected at the end, but you have to determine the best path to get there. Best of luck.
Never attribute to Hanlon that which can be adequately attributed to Heinlein.