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Games Workshop Tries to Crack Down on Internet Sales
heirodule writes "In this messageboard posting internet retailer The warstore says he was contacted by Games Workshop, maker of miniature wargames such as Warhammer 40,000 and the Lord of the Rings Battle Game. GW will be refusing to distribute their product to retailers who sell over the internet after July 1. That's bad enough, but they cited the problem of IP violations (like people posting pictures of their products?) as part of the rationale. The claim is that for GW, this has nothing to do with internet sales offering discounts (yeah, right) but with the 'experience' that GW wants customers to have (of coming into their own stores and getting a hard sell)." The nearest Game Workshop store to me is a 1 hour, 10 minute drive, according to their store locator. The Usenet thread may be of interest.
So if you sell GW stuff on the internet but don't have pictures, just descriptions you should be ok. People can always go to the GW site to see what the stuff looks like, or read White Dwarf.
graspee
Is 'Games Workshop' an Apple company?
GW will find out the hard way that people will not buy what they can not access. There are no GW shops where I live and probably never will be. The only options I have is to either buy on-line or have a friend shop for me, provided I have a friend near a GW shop.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
I hate this "you have to buy from a local retailer" BS. It's like this with a lot of AV equipment. I can't mailorder the speakers I want...they want me to get ripped off at a local dealer. So, I end up ordering from a grey market dealer for 1/2 MSRP.
The problem isn't with the Internet. If you want to charge more locally do it, but I better get some good service for the extra money. Plus, you better stock the exact model I want and not take 3 weeks to get it.
How do these places stay in business? The one near me (about 1 mile if it's any comfort) is in a mall with rather onerous rent. There is a comic book store a few miles away that seems to have the lock on geeks wanting to play games. But how do you pay mall rent by selling a a couple of miniatures? Is there really that much money in these things?
This sort of move (and I haven't read the article, so bite me if I base this solely on the blurb here:) is the 'head stuck in the sand' method that we lambast the RIAA and MPAA, among others, for. I see two possible rationalizations. First, Games Workshop needs to keep paying those mall/strip center rents. Second, they plan on selling online and don't want the competition.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I can remember when wargamers had a slew of options for what game to play. Now FASA is gone and after this little announcement I think WG will fall soon. I love those little miniatures, getting attached to them while painting makes there survivalin the game that much more important... but now I wonder if there will ever be another reason to drag them out and get a game going. Tabletop wargaming was awesome but I doubt I will ever get to play unless I go to GENCON. Thats sad...
Fnord.sig
I'm not going to buy it!!!!
Not that I could anyway, or probably would for that matter.
I guess I'm missing something here.
www.games-workshop.com has an online store at their site.
Maybe they fear competition?
"You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
1. Sell millions through internet "e-tailers"
2. Realize that too much profit is bad (for whatever reason)
3. Quit selling to "e-tailers"
4. ???
5. Bankruptcy!
Trolling is a art,
Honestly, I've gotten to the point where I could care less about Games Workshop games. The main appeal that they have is that they were set incredibly detailed and fascinating, if somewhat dark, universes. Unfortunately, the games just aren't as much fun as they used to be; they're vehicles for miniature sales, and I'm not into miniatures.
<p>I used to pick up novels set in the WH40k universe at <a href="http://www.powells.com/">Powells bookstore</a>. I guess I can kiss those goodbye. Oh well.
Finding God in a Dog
And i work with a place that sells the junk. Thats just the thing i don't get, the retailers are advertising GW's product or for that matter anyone elses for basically free but they'll bitch about it to pull the images. I guess WizKids Games will be getting increased ordering from retailers now also.
Hey it's not like their entire customer base is hot-headed, demanding nerds with Napoleon fantasies...
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Surely if you show a picture of an item you're selling in order to sell it, this is an example of fair use.
It's not like GW is being harmed (one of the typical fair use tests). This actually is advertising.
Bingo! Hit the nail on the head. Pictures is part of advertizing. Actually someone should do that. See what 'excuse' GW comes up with for that.
That's why my friends and I would buy the set, sell the minatures on, and then make cardstock chits for our battles. We just played a 3,000 point Warmaster battle for the total investment of the rules and the 2002 annual (about $50).
Suppose that's a DMCA violation because I made an apparatus to bypass their propriatary miniatures?
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
When they find out that these dirty "retailers" (AKA IP Pirates) have been -profiting- off their intellectual property!
"Please, stop selling our products! And stop advertising them too!!"
(Sell! Sell! Sell!)
Is an industry that is still small enough that I think it thrives off of cooperation and team work, rather then the type of cut throat competition you more commonly find in other industries.
... they won't get my business. And yes, I know they won't really miss one customer. But I feel better...
For this reason, I have personally refused to purchase merchandise from GW. I feel that they do more to attack to the industry then they do to build it up.
Once the rpg and/or board game/miniatures industry is even close to being as big as the computer games industry...then by all means, go at each other tooth and nail. In the meantime though, many players really need their FLGS (Friendly Local Gaming Stores) in order to get the content they need, have a chance to flip through tbe book then buy it and to meet other gamers.
As long as GW and a few other companies keeps screwing over the FLGS's
Craenor
When I was in highschool and playing WH and the like there was a big split in Games Workshop that resulted in the creation of Warzone which is basically a WH clone but the cost of the figures was MUCH cheaper and the quality much higher. Games Workshop drove their modelers from their company by making the game too expensive to be played by your average High School student and making the working environment intollerable. Games Workshop seems to think they can do whatever they want and the customers will still buy their overpriced product and up till now they have been correct, maybe this will be the straw that broke the camels back. Question: How does this look on a legal front? How can a distributer say that the location of a store is grounds for not distributing to that store? I don't know anything about the relevent laws and thought someone might.
Is because their retail dealers are screaming about internet (and before the net, mail order dealers,) undercutting them on price. That's the only reason for a manufacturer to take this kind of action, every other excuse is smoke and fluff.
If they survive the drastic drop in sales (which always happens when companies do this,) they'll be back on the net shortly. How quickly it happens depends on how much of their sales came from Internet sources. If internet sales accounted for much of their revenue they'll be back quickly; if not, they may just fade away. They don't have enough retail exposure (enough retailers carrying their stuff) to pretend the play the mass market game.
They also have decided that electritic lights and paper money don't give the GW customer the right 'experience'. So from now on they will be using torches and only excepting gold coins (or in the case of japanese made wargames, only gil.)
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
It's truly shocking. You can say that online commerce is now fully matured given how it has finally attracted the attention of the US States' gov'ts for taxation purposes.
So what bonehead came up with the idea to force people to go into stores with a much higher bottom line as the only option to purchase their product?
That would be like deciding that hotel reservations online are a bad thing, so we'll force people to call our sales staff - that way we can push upgrades and other items on them.
Some people and companies just have to go their own way....
This sig contains a manual self-destruct. Kindly please put your foot through your monitor in 8 seconds.
I'm thinking that if they come after us for playing their games without using their miniatures, the best thing to do would be to invent different rules and keep them under an open content license. After that, companies can compete to sell minis for the new open ruleset.
Finding God in a Dog
so, they're just like the RIAA/MPAA. Unload all your Games Workshop stuff on ebay or whereever you can get rid of it, and go outside for a change. Play paintball or something.
Stupid models... my roomates were into that crap and they messed up my Leatherman tool trying to file the sharp edges off so they "wouldn't hurt themselves"... grrrr
I can see their point as far as companies using their pictures for marketing, but an over the top action like this will only hurt them in the long run. Should they really care if pictures are being ripped off to promote the legitimate sale of their products? Doesn't make much sense to me!
I just find them on the internet
GW used to be a much different organization. As they became bigger and bigger, it seems like they really lost touch with the gamers, and they kept targetting a younger and younger crowd. I mean, if you can, get your hands on a copy of "Rogue Trader" -- and then compare the feel of the rules to the ones from the latest edition of WH40k. They've added more models, and yeah, they're better models, but it feels like they've surrounded them in a web of dense, arbitrary rules.
I suppose that's necessary, for the climate of gaming nowadays. It's much more important to win than to play, which it didn't feel like when I first got into WH/WH40k oh-so-long ago.
Well, anyway, this doesn't surprise me. TSR went through a phase like this, before WotC bought them out. Remember when all the online D&D supplements were curiously void of any actual references to D&D? I think GW is making that same transition -- from a company made of gamers to a company selling to gamers.
I know some companies don't let anyone sell on the web because they want to help keep their dealers around. Schwinn has a very decent policy regarding this... 1. You can only buy Schwinn products online from http://schwinn.com/ 2. When someone buys from their store the dealer that is in that persons area actually gets a portion of the profit and the customer is told to bring their product their for any repair/maintenance/etc.. Very good balance in my opinion.... It allows online sales and helps promote the actual dealers...
that darn ruler doesn't scale well to a computer monitor. With minitures, how can you effectively gauge your movement range, missle fire, etc?
come on fhqwhgads
boy am i glad that i invested in one of those 3d resin printers... I've been downloading all of Games Workshop's models off of usenet, where some dude with one of those 3d scanners has been posting them! I have all of GW's catalog and the only money i've spent is on the "printing" resin! Eat that RIAA!
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
Intellectual property protection by not allowing someone to sell a paper book or metal miniatures online? Bwah?
Complete and total lunacy. Howling at the moon. I know Game Workshop has been setting their lawyers loose on people posting PDFs of their books online, and I can certainly understand that, but this is just plain crazy. Saying no one but you can sell on the Internet is a sure way to drive the people who sell your products into the grave. If Games Workshop gets hurt by this (stores just stopping selling GW products) maybe it won't get too far, but I doubt it. If I ran a hobby shop selling Games Workshop material, I'd probably just start closing down, selling off all my stock cheap, and get into a stable, sane industry. Once Games Workshop gets away with it, Wizards, Wizkids, and White Wolf will too, and then no hobby store worth patronizing will be able to have any kind of Internet presence other than "we are located here" with a poorly drawn dragon on their logo. I hope that doesn't happen. I hope GW gets slapped hard, but I doubt it. Their stuff is too popular.
Way to try and turn back the clock on an entire industry.
For instance, the rules say that you can only use Games Workshop-licensed minatures in games. While you're just playing with your friends it's one thing, but if you want to field three land raiders or something, you have to shell out the $50 each for those model kits. (They're pretty high quality plastic models, but they don't have very many pieces at all, so you're paying strictly for licensing/the name. A similar model from testors or someone would be like eight bucks.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
What GW is probably trying to do is protect their resellers' profit margins.
For instance, what a lot of people do is talk to the local guy, use up all his time and ideas, and then buy online from someone who is cheaper because they don't spend all day helping customers and providing a value-add. Therefore, you see the people who were providing all the quality customer service go out of business because they can't spend all that time helping people and compete with the low price guys. The same thing is in retail computer space, that's why the level of customer service is so abysmal IMHO. People would go pick the brains of the people who would spend time with them, and then go and order online or from some cheap guy that doesn't help them.
So, this makes it so that the stores which ostensibly put in the effort to educate customers and generate sales get crushed and the stores that add no value do well... BUT once the stores that provided the value go away, then you tend to get the whole manufacturer's sales go down because no one is helping the customers. You'll get some guys that will keep buying, but you'll not get many new customers.
THere are exceptions to this, and it sounds like they do need more resellers if their nearest one is over an hour away for someone, but they probably do have channel management reasons for wanting to make all their people compete evenly.
From the Usenet post -
Games Workshop is disturbed by the infringement of copyrights on their intellectual property so rampant on the internet. Therefore to protect their IP GW will be closing the internet to all uses of their intellectual property except for a handful of permitted images.
However, GW's (current?) IP policy is very encouraging in tone, quote: "the higher profile the hobby gets the better it is for all of us". The full policy is here - http://www.gamesworkshop.com/Legal/ippolicy.htm
Is this a case of left hand - right hand, or will that policy change dramatically in the near future?
Paul
I wouldn't want to be their marketing people right now.
The nearest one for me is "only" 90 minutes, one direction....
But seriously, how can they say it's about the "hard sell" when they run an online store of their own?
Well gee.... Seems like some companies still need to learn the hard way.
*You don't dick your customers to increase profits.*
Maybe I'll consider this a good thing, sure it may cost the world some quality games, but in the long run this should prove to be a valuable lesson to others.
Dunno if this has changed one bit, but when they were starting to get big, you couldn't buy a complete game from them.
Additional rules, errata, new rules from the magazine they published, etc etc etc. You couldn't play a complete game because no game was ever complete. Nevermind playing a tournament.
I saw them back then for what they are: Money grubbing bastards. Seems little has changed.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
eBay
Bet you can find any of the pieces on there. Let's see them try to stop every Tom, Dick, and Harry from selling their pieces.
- Joe
Don't buy the crap!!!! If these fools think they are going to hold anyone hostage by their own stupidity they will pay for it. if I owned the product I would worry less about keeping my little crappy shops open and more about getting the stuff in as many hands as possible.
And one that most GW games players use already to get stuff cheaper:
eBay.
GW cannot in any way stop someone from selling off their old games stuff. Dealers can buy stuff in bulke and then auction it off on eBay. I don't see GW being able to stop that in any way.
"It never got weird enough for me." - HST (RIP)
Used to be they were a great place to shop for all your gaming needs, back in the late '80s. Now they're like the MS of games stores. This seems to be another attempt to control their product on the market.
They pretty much destroyed the excellent gaming mag "White Dwarf" by turning it into one big GW advert. They lost my business because of that, and now I don't buy their stuff and shop at indie games stores.
While I am not into the gaming scene (anymore), this appearent action by GW seems to walk a well trodden road. Company isnt as successful as they used to be, starts to target resellers, customers, etc that they believe are misuing their whatever stuff. Decides to retake control of their whole market via dumbass maneuvers that piss people off or by legal action. i think most recently we can see this in SCO.
So now GW is doing the right thing by making it more difficult for gamers to buy their products. This will grow the market by... uh... wait... by... uh... .
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
This is one of the most colossally stupid business decisions I have ever heard of. Miniature gaming is an *extremely* niche market with alot of competition. Cutting off any market share at all just makes no sense whatsoever. Yes I understand that you can still get it online through their website, but it's still remarkably limiting.
.02
I can't imagine where other game companies, like Mayfair, WOC, etc... would be if they forced you to buy from brick and mortar stores. I live in Chicago, and finding the exact game product you might be looking for at the time isn't always easy. To restrict access to your product (a product that only a few 1000 people may be purchasing at any one time) is just plain dumb.
just me
jeff
Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction here...I am an avid player of Risk 2210, and would like to replace the commanders with metal miniatures. I have been unable to find anything suitable, but I'm not sure I am looking in the right place. Also, I would prefer not to do assembly/painting myself. Are there places where you can pay folks to paint these things? Any help before I get modded into oblivion would be appreciated.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(TM)
Games Workshop is once again trying to funnel money to their own retail stores and their own web site, rather than independent retailers. They have a consistent history, from the late eighties, when I started to play their games, of screwing independents whenever possible- for a while they were forcing game stores to become "Chapter Approved" to sell their stuff, which means you sign an agreement giving them more money.
This policy of only them being allowed to sell their merchandise via the Internet is just more of the same.They are doing their best to become the Microsoft of the gaming world, and it's the reason I quit buying things from them ten YEARS ago. It's a damn shame, too, because their creative arm is the best in the business, by far. I made the switch to pen and paper games, like Gurps, and eventually computer games.
I think as Games Workshop continues to alienate their customers with sketchy sales practices, aggressive pricing, and constantly re-releasing newer versions of old models, forcing a collector to re-buy his army every few years to participate in tournaments, they will eventually piss off their players to the point that they will seek other things to do with their spare time. There's no shortage of other options, including intelligent, geek-friendly gaming companies like Steve Jackson Games. [I have no affiliation, I just think they're cool.]
Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
I have to wonder if this isn't also part of a larger issue?
Namely, the creators of these fantasy/role-playing games and miniatures attained their initial glory and status in the "pre-Internet" era. (By that, I mean, John Q, Gamer wasn't actively using an Internet browser at home or playing many games online.)
Companies like TSR made oodles of cash selling D&D books at $30 a pop through the local hobby shops, and items like the minitatures were soon to follow.
Nowdays, the prevalence of computers,the net, and online gaming seems like it is eating into their market. I guess some companies adapted better than others. (Look at how TSR went into the computer simulation game business in a *big* way.) In general though, I suspect the changes are somewhat lost on them.
I can easily see how they'd view the web and computer gaming as "the enemy" - since it would seem to be drawing folks away from a world of using one's own imagination to game, while establishing a "concreteness" to the whole thing by the purchase of small figurines. (In the virtual world, you simply look at photos of your favorite characters - perhaps as wallpaper or screen savers? The games provide a multimedia experience so you don't need to imagine what some "dungeon master" is trying to describe to you with just words.)
Seriously, for those who like the WarHammer40k concept, but don't want to fork out an appendage, there's always BattleTech. Granted, you play on a flat 2d hex-map with plastic miniatures, but you end up having the same amount of fun (or more)...AND you still have money left over for pizza/beer.
-jc
and became full on corperate whore about 6 years ago.
This totally doesn't come as a surprise.
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
Most vendors will put a revision clause in, "subject to modification with 90 days notice" (which is generous IMO). Which means that the vendor can terminate the contract with 90 days notice, if merchants refuse to accept a new contract.
So what's to bitch about? Any GW merchants signed a contract, showing their agreement with the terms. Nobody held them at gunpoint when signing.
cat
You would think there would be a couple forward-thinking CEO's who would realize that maybe, instead of raising prices whenever you can, try cutting costs, and pass the savings onto the consumer. Not only will they most likely BUY MORE, they will also think much better of you. And i'm not talking about the kind of pricedrop that puts you into a lower class of product (like a BMW costing the same as a KIA), but enough that it would make people already aware of the brand/product more inclined to purchase it, and to make those who already purchase it even more brand loyal. Eh, I can't wait till I get out of college and work my way up to CEO somehow, cuz I guess some things you just have to do for yourself.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
I think we all agree that Games Workshop wants to eliminate competition from its own crappy online store rather than actually improve their own online store experience.
What I'm curious to know is if this "no other online outlets" policy will apply to TRU/Amazon.com?
I never heard of them before anyway.
You have to Register to read 'the rest' of long messages in that thread linked?
When did that happen?
I started participating in auctions online and collecting an army for roughly half the price of what I was paying at the store. My army grew to more than 120 pieces before GW decided "welp, it's time to change the Chaos rule book and all the minis so we can make more money selling people new versions of what they already have." Fortunately, I only played with friends and not in tournaments since they banned all older minis from the tournaments. I couldn't see any reason to go out and by another Blood Thirster of Khorne when the one I already had was adequate enough.
Even back in those days, GW was trying to strong arm online retailers and auctioners into not giving discount prices. If anything, those prices made it easier for GW to clear out their old stock to bring in the new line. I certainly never would have as many minis as I do now if I had to pay full retail on all of them. Seems like they only want to shoot themselves in the foot. I wonder what they would think about how I created molds and copied some of the minis I had bought for my own use ($6 a pop for infantry level guys gets rather rough).
Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
I started gaming over 30 years ago. Avalon Hill board games were the big thing then and Strategy & Tactics magazine (with a board game in every issue.) D&D in high school (the original three booklets: #4 when released was a BIG event, the first addition to the rules in a long time.) I spent most of my time with minatures and I played just about everything and anything: Napoleonic era, American Civil War, English Civil War, ancient, medieval, WWI, WWII and modern armor, naval minatures (had the darndest WWI Austro-Hungarian fleet you ever saw -- a Tatra class DD squadron was enormous fun! Trouble was, you only had the one squadron: that's all they built...)
Anyway, I spent most of my post-pubescent years up through the first few years of my marriage with this stuff. A number of years ago my son got interested in one of the fantasy games (I forget which one.) After some research I advised him to not get too heavily into it. There were two reasons: cost, and the heavily commercialization surrounding it. He ended up buying a starter set of minatures, building them and painting them, then didn't play much. He noticed one of the killer errors of previous generations of poorly designed games: they take too long to play and too much of that time is spent nosing through the rules.
Tractics was the original "encyclopedic" game I recall playing. I call it encyclopedic because you couldn't play the thing without continuous reference to a thick book of complex rules. Tractics (rules for modern armor -- read that as tanks and infantry -- minatures) games could go on for eight hours and you'd discovered that you'd only played six turns, with no outcome in sight. Deeply frustrating.
One of my buddies, a very bright guy, condensed and abstracted Tractics into a playable set of rules that yielded 95%+ identical results in about six pages of rules, most of which were easily memorized tables. Basically, he refactored Tractics into something playable (and much more enjoyable) that you could get a full game, 20+ turns out of, in six to eight hours. A group of about 20 or so of us played these rules for about 10 years, (and for all I know are still playing them: I dropped out about the time my first kid was born.)
The point? Gaming goes through cycles, just like everything else. The first D&D was very playable but it got popular, more rules were written (mostly to have something to sell,) and it stopped being fun. The days when you could spend an enjoyable afternoon running through a dungeon as a somewhat unstable Orc with a spear are long gone. Lots of companies were formed, sold a bunch of stuff and disappeared. Other companies looked at the field, saw the litter of commercial corpses, and decided to make other games instead. This left things open for gamers to sell the stuff they loved and games got good again. Once someone started to make money again the commercialization process started all over, which is where things are today.
Personally I've moved on to computer games. Talonsoft has (or had, I dunno,) a great line of PC games for old minatures freaks, and there are a lot of choices. It isn't the same as moving a squadron of Hussars across a tabletop river, or trying to figure out where your opponent has hidden his weapons platoon with those damned mortars, but it's a lot easier than finding another minatures player who actually knows some history to game with. So this company has done something stupid and will, in all probability, flame out. So what: that's part of the life cycle. Gaming won't lose much, from what I've seen of their products.
...you just might get it
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
It sounds like GW is trying to increase profits and push their retailers by using the philosophy that their games are popular, thus people will buy them, so they should have to pay full price. In short, the product sells itself and they can charge whatever they want. I've noticed other companies (*cough*Wizards of the Coast*cough*) trying to do the same thing.
By comparison, other game companies are taking the exact opposite approach: they encourage local retailers to stock what they can, no requirements about "you must take such-and-such to get such-and-such" and simply let the market decide. They actively go out and promote communities around their games and gaming in general. They tend to devote a lot of time to the community. From what I can tell, Kenzer & Co. is one of the best examples out there (they publish the comic Knights of the Dinner Table, as well as Hackmaster, Kingdoms of Kalamar, Fairy Meat and Dwarven Dig.) Their message boards are literally the heart of their community, but the neat thing is that the major names all participate in the discussions. More to the point, the major names even take part in the esoteric discussions of favorite B-movies. Heck, the other day, Gary Gygax popped in and briefly talked about a stuffed koala he used to own!! When discussing the games and the rules, etc, they give the distinct impression that player feedback matters.
The result of this is that they've fostered a fanatically loyal fan base who voluntarily spend money on products to ensure that the company stays afloat. GW would do well to foster that kind of relationship with their fans.
----------
Something cleverSeriously.
Little plastic or metal figurines. Once the original has been designed, you just churn them out by the millions. Most are just derivations of older designs anyway.
So why do these things cost C$30-C$50 each??!!
Unpainted.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
Seriously, pardon my ignorance, but why exactly do you need to consult with a salesperson about buying miniatures? What value do they add? Consulting a salesperson on a computer if you don't know much about them? I can buy that. But purchasing miniatures for a game? I don't get it.
I have actually been in a GameWorks, I went to lunch with a couple of friends who were into it and they went in to buy some stuff. To tell you the truth, the place kind of creeped me out. And I didn't see anyone working too hard in there either.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I can comment on this personally as we received a letter for GW as well a few months ago. We're working on a online BB game (http://www.towbowltactics.com/) and used some images. We responded to the letter, added a disclamer and never heard back. There are so many fan sites out there that use those images and no one is profiting for it. I'm thinking it's more of a scare tactic than anything else. Otherwise they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Isn't it similar type of thinking (different actions and time) that caused TSR so much trouble. Produce dervitive products, rarely innovate, deal with not very good business partners, no major marketing effort( as in TV, or Newspapers, target sci-fi shows and college newspapers), failing to reach new customers. If GW wants to see what not to do, TSR from a few years ago would be ripe with examples.
Capitalism: unequal distribution of wealth
Socialism: equal distribution of poverty
quit gaming and get a life..
;-)
oops, did I just say that out loud?
There goes my karma.
but seriously, think about how much time and money you've put in to that exercise which might have been better spent, I dunno, feeding the poor or something. Kind of like my nethack habit.
When the vendor clearly demonstrates that they don't give a rat's ass about the community their customers have developed, that's when it's time for everyone to collectively tell the vendor to piss off. Imagine what kind of effect that would have on the RIAA.
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
I played Warhammer & Warhammer 40k for a long while but never really bought GW models. I would buy a few then looked at alternative model companies to bolster my armies with. The only GW game I have spent alot of money on was Necromunda. Which I feel was one of the best Table top games made. Of course GW canceled Necromunda after they realized that after a player bought one or 2 gangs he really didn't need to buy much else. Its a very similar issue to Warmaster. When they released it you could by boxed Armies that were fairly cheap. But now you can''t by preboxed armies. You have to buy individual blisters to create an army and that can be expensive.
I did try to get into Warzone for a while since its rules seemed to flow better than WAR40k 2nd & 3rd. Plus you could get an enitre army dirt cheap. Warzone was bought out byt sombody who was planning a massive release at retail stores but that was the last I heard of them.
Now for the more shady characters out there I recently looked into casting my own minis. While gathering info I found a booklet that describes how to copy any minature made out of metal. After you make a mold the cost per mini came to 3-15 cents.
With GW opening their own stores and driving the indies out of business it further consolidates their distribution.
So your argument only is valid if GW wasn't opening more local stores, which is demonstrably untrue.
I live in a urban center with over 1 million people. A recent GT was held here. There are two stores that sell GW product. One sells almost exclusively GW product (with a smattering of Hasbro/WotC RPG books). Another sells GW merchandise, comics, videos, RPGs, historical and competing mini games etc. If a GW store opened here who would go out of business?
In the United States if you demand that a retailer sell something at a certain price, or you try to force the issue, you can go to jail.
That's why it called the manufactureres Suggested Retail Price or MSRP. GW is the manufacturer, they sell to distributers who sell to retailers, who sell to the public.
The problem is that GW doesn't like the fact that the mini's they make for $.25 and are sold to the distributer for $2.00 are being sold by internet retailers for $2.25 +S/H. Becuase at a GW owned store and at most Brick and Mortor stores, they go for $6.00.
Ted Tschopp
Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien
My beta of a hobby (free) implementation should be on SourceForge in a couple of months (or something). It might even be half as good as the existing best free implementation. :-)
Before getting too far, I sent an email to GW and asked them about their opinion on free implementations. This is their answer. Excuse my formatting. E.g. point 2 is a bit scary, since they seem to be able to go into deals with game publishers later that disallows my game. But they don't exactly look as evil as Microsoft, really.
Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
I have a close friend who owns a Hobby Store which is the local Games Workshop re-seller. It is hard for them to make a living with the availability of cheep online stuff. Most sell at a 10-20 percent discont, which is the REAL problem.
You can always buy online from GamesWorkshop web site it self. There is no dicount however.
I hope the Hobby Store can stay in business, they offer tables to play and gather. I lecture the kids at the store all the time when they brag about buying this and that online for 50-75% off. You should support the hobby store or not play there.
Eventually the trend will be one source for these things, and no local places selling. This is bad for the economy.
Think globally, shop locally.
-Richard
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
I would imagine because Apple has traditionally tried to monopolize the production of their product. If you want a Mac, you have to buy the computer from Apple. If you want a Windows machine, you can buy from Dell, Gateway (ugh), etc, or make it yourself.
Everybody "monopolizes" the production of their product. You can't buy a Dell from Sony, or a Playstation from Nintendo.Games Workshop isn't trying to halt the production of Warhammer products by other companies, or to stop the sale of other companies' miniatures, so none of this is relevant, anyways.
It would seem that GW thinks that by forcing people to come into their stores to buy their products, they will be able to sucker them into buying more than they need. I bet they just lose more customers than they gain
Apple allows retailors other than the Apple Store to sell their computers, so remind me how this is anything like Apple, again?
This has always been GW policy. Several years ago I owned and operated a hobby shop that had both a B&M and internet prescence. GW would not sell to me if I told them that I would sell their products online. They also have difficult restrictions on minimum orders and such.
The simple solution was just to buy from a wholesaler. GW is one of the few manufacturers that will sell direct to a retailer anyway. Almost all other lines are purchased via wholesalers. The benefit to dealing direct was a slightly better discount. (MSRP -%40 vs MSRP - %30 if my memory serves me). In all likelihood online dealers will still be able to buy thorugh wholesalers, they will simply be forced to either charge a little more or accept a little bit thinner margin on these products
If privacy had a tombstone it would read "We did it for your own good" . -- John Twelve Hawks
Because if I were an indie store owner I'd be pushing Clix like a fiend after being treated like this.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
okay, so i used to work for GW (I actually did the casting of the miniatures at their baltimore site - mind that i said casting and not sculpting). a friend of mine headed up the north american mail order dept. he showed me some numbers one day and explained the how-and-why of gw.
basically, they give crap-all about retail stores (their own or the indy's the push into being chapter approved). it's all just exposure. as he explained it to me, 80% of their revenue came in through mail-order (this was '95). 80% in north american, 80% asia/australia, and 80% in europe. at the time (and most likely now) they were the largest mail-order gaming company in the world. period.
so what's changed? nothing. you can buy online and i'm quite sure that gw isn't interested in anyone else profitting off their very lucractive mail/online-order business without shelling out some serious cash to become "chapter approved". it's just their business strategy - plain and simple.
that said, i used to be able to buy the miniatures by weight. that means an eight dollar item normally cost me about six cents. models were 50% off. but i left the company after being told that i needed to paint the "games workshop" way or not field an army. which pissed me off because i paint very well, just not their way. gw is the most ridiculously overpriced gaming company ever. this part of my rant is going nowhere fast...
to summarize: gw + mail/online-order = profit.
that's really all there is to it. honest.
The problem is that brick & moarter stores cost a lot more to run than your average Internet shop. A low traffic location will cost you upwards of $200/month. Then you have to worry about keeping the store manned. (Remember, minimum wage means minimum quality) Also, all that equipment being demonstrated sucks up electricity. Even when it's "off." (It's really in standby) Then add shoplifting to your list of costs. There's probably a few things I'm missing here.
You can get managed hosting at Rackspace and a self-storage unit(for use as a warehouse) in your local area for much less than that, and you can do all of the work on your own time, at your own hours, at your own wage.
What's this Submit thingy do?
What's your point? I don't see GW forcing their retailers to sell at a certain price. They are just saying that they don't want to let them sell at all. It is their choice and their stupidity. People will just choose one of the dozen other miniature manufacturers to buy from. There is no law that says you have to have retailers to sell your product.
GW wants to ban ALL 3rd party internet vendors and do it themselves--they want the WHOLE pie to themselves. Perhaps they are trying to become "vertically integrated" (ie. greedy bastards). Theoretically, making, distributing, marketing and selling a product through one big company is supposed to reduce risk of IP theft, possibility of other entities that you depend on going under and so on.
However in todays economy (fast moving, information based, global) "vertical integration" is ineffective and obsolete except in the case of VERY big corporations like GM--and even they outsource (if there is a problem with the outsource, they have enough pull to affect their management or pull out, or even take them over). The "razor blade" theory is also becoming so much bunk too (giving away whe razor and ripping us off on the blades).
In the computer industry I can think of examples where the tactics GW used completely backfired. MITS created the PC industry with the Altair--they were the only player in the game, but success very quickly brough competitors (Proc Tech, IMSAI, Cromemco, Apple, Commodore, Tandy...). MITS tried to aggessivley protect their IP (namely the bus which became known as the S100 bus--competitors started making peripheral cards for it and soon make S100 PCs of their own). Not only was MITS uncooperative with 3rd party vendors--they went as far as to threaten lawsuit. On the sales and marketing side, MITS attempted to make all their dealers exclusive MITS dealers--but soon most broke off that deal as IMSAI (and later Apple) gave them sweeter deals and didn't demand exclusivity.
GW is doing this now. They are vigourously defending their "IP" to the point of crippling their marketing (they don't even want people to put up pictures on their websites---turning their nose up at free advertising!). Furthermore, hey are trying to control everything--they want to have the only website and a bunch of stores with nothing but their own product. Like MITS, GW isn't exactly a high profile company. Also like MITS, their product could be duplicated relatively easily (not cloned mind you, but if GW alientates customers work-alike products will fill the void). GW could be like MITS in a third way in 2 or 3 years--completely gone.
This vertical strategy only stands a good chance of working if you have BIG resources and can take BIG risks. Even Texas Instruments failed with the TI99/4a. From the start they employed a vertical strategy (along with the "razorblade" strategy when sales were slow). Before TI discontinued the machine, they controled manufacturing (the thing was loaded wil all TI chips---CPU, VDP, memory, logic), distribution and sales (making it a bit more difficult to find than say a Commodore, Atari or Apple) and software/peripheral/accessories (they figured they could sell the computer for much less than it cost to make and hose customers on software and hardware accessories--the 3rd party TI market was basically non-existent). TI couldn't pull it off and lost millions. Ironically, in the couple of years AFTER TI pulled out of the market, a small 3rd party industry blossomed around the TI.
If a giant like TI couldn't pull it off, how can a specialty shop like GW handle the whole pie?
Yet another muther to put up against the wall come the revolution. And this is a stupid, stupid move. One reason I admire Goggle is that practice one basic principle of business...Never piss off your customers!
Any infringement on my freedom pissed me off to no end.
Funny how stupid they're being about this. It's like a coffee company cracking down on truck stop sales. Who buys role-playing miniatures? Geeks. Who's most likely to turn to the internet while shopping? Geeks. Good luck selling WH40K miniatures to 17-year-old girls who hang out in malls.
Interestingly, they're going the opposite way of companies like IBM who refuse to sell computers and computer parts in retail stores.
-3Suns
~~~~
The Revolution will be Slashdotted
If there's a copyright violation, my guess is that it's either due to all the stores all using the same images that the manufacturer actually made, or they're using the manufacturer's trademark logos, as opposed to simply using the name as part of an item's description. The stuff about copyright violation is probably either bullshit, or it's something easy to avoid infringing. A seller can just get a $200 digital camera and take pictures of the merchandise themselves, and that's that. Use the manufacturer's name to describe who made the product, rather than using their logo or possibly confusing customers about whether you represent that manufacturer or not.
Setting heinous terms of sale, though, is probably do-able. If you want to buy a bunch of stuff from the manufacturer at below list price (so that you can resell it at a profit), then they can get you to agree to whatever terms they want to try to get from you, in exchange for that lower price. If you don't like the terms (which might say that selling over the net is prohibited) then you don't have to buy the items. I suspect they'll get away with that. But as everyone else is pointing out, the thing that they'll "get away with" will probably not really be to their advantage. (Just as if I were to put an ad in the paper saying I'm selling a Honda Civic, Honda can't do a damned thing about it.)
I don't see why this is a big deal or how "EVERY INTERNET BUSINESS" is threatened. And I can't imagine there are any serious barriers to someone else opening a manufacturing business that does the same thing and competes and blows these guys to hell It's not like there are patents on pouring molten pewter (or whatever these things use) into a mold, are there? (If there were, they would have expired centuries ago, no?) I bet this is a craft where the playing field is very level. (Now someone will shoot me down for my ignorance. Fine, show me.)
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
the 'experience' that GW wants customers to have (of coming into their own stores and getting a hard sell)
Huh? Every time I walk into a GW store, a teenage employee saunters up and asks me if he or she can help me find something, and I say, "No thanks, I'm just browsing," and that's it. Which is pretty much my experience everywhere that the salespeople aren't paid on commission. If you're being pushed around by the pasty RPG geeks at GW, consider exercising.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
It's still dark. Humanity is constantly battling for its existence against Chaos, but the human Empire is a religious-fascist hegemony which self-destructively purges dissent and heresy, through a perpetual Inquisition. Science is a thing of the past and artisans (re)produce technology with no knowledge of how it works. It almost makes the Orcs' destructive nihilism look at least honest.
But yes, it's very much marketed to 12 year olds.
Freedom: "I won't!"
I don't suppose this will help me buy from them then..
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Let's demonstrate with a quick example:
Local retailer sells D&D stuff (because I don't play WH) at MSRP -- $30 per core rulebook, $90 for all three.
Amazon.com sells D&D core rulebooks -- and most D&D products -- at 30% off. $9 discount per rulebook, $27 per set.
The *extra* margin for the local shop on just a set of D&D core rulebooks can pay a retail employee for almost half a day.
The problem is: does that employee provide half a day's worth of value-add to the customer?
Well they're never going to admit that they're not useful, but the simple fact of the matter is that they generally don't. Our local games shop has a micro-LAN, WH, M:tG and other such games being played on a pay-for-play kind of schedule, but I've not seen or heard any resources -- like a bulletin board for connecting local players to games -- that they provide to the D&D community.
So ultimately the problem is that the local shops (high-margin channel) aren't providing enough value-add to make customers loyal despite the high margins. The solution being demonstrated by GW is to treat anybody who doesn't appreciate the value-add that local shops can give as criminals for buying from a non-traditional source. A better solution would be for GW to make special community-building resources available only to brick & mortar shops, such that the local community was more pay-for-play.
"Want to avoid the higher margins at local shops? Fine, go play with yourself."
For that matter, why not scraps of paper?
Finding God in a Dog
I went through a minor phase of tabletop playing and frankly had always been interested in the minatures and models mentioned here. However, I noticed that in order to get any goods of decent quality (relative to past items) you had to pay a hefty premium and I just am unwilling to put my money into foolish things like that when I have a family to consider.
Perhaps one day I will be able to have a "childhood fantasy" shrine, but with the mentality of people like GW I doubt it will be soon.
It is much like drug addiction it seems as so many refuse to admit their slavery and will on one hand bitch about the "evil" of various companies and vendors yet will still support them. Remember, in the government of the consumer marketplace you always "vote with your feet." Don't make excuses, don't blubber and justify... just accept that fact and then drive on. If you choose to support them, then do everyone a favor and not bitch about it. However, if you are wise (and also a bit of an entrepreneur) then start up a distributed system of manufacturing and selling of these. The internet is an amazing tool for such things as this and if you are using your own material and/or those of good companies then you will not have a problem.
Now for the particulars of this incident... I am doubting somehow there is sufficient precident to restrict reselling of objects at any price for any reason. However, that is legal... and if a company wants to not sell their items to someone so be it. It is the right of everyone (at least in the US) to make as complete a jackass of themselves as they want. It is a bad business decision for GW, but let them shoot themselves in the foot and don't worry about it. They are banking on one thing and one thing alone... that people will shrug and say (after a bit of bitching), "oh well, guess I have to save up more money for my cool super-duper-pooper-trooper-3005 next time" Don't sell out... just sell your stuff
channel conflict is the term your looking for, although I don't see it as a problem
But there are manufacturers that will tell their dealers that they must not sell for less than a given price, or they will loose the dealership. So the price is the same at a small mom&pop, or super discount megachain.
-MDL
Happy meals fund terrorism
Which means get your GW figs via ebay while you still can. Once this realization sets in, ebay auctions for Warhammer and the like will be bid up to astronomical prices. Like practically everything else on ebay these days.
Although this is a really stupid thing to do (much the same as if Marvel Comics decided it would only sell direct through there website and subscriptions and no longer through comic book stores) They have literally TONS of stores in my area (South Bay CA) coupled with their online sales I think the only people/sales they will lose will be from the nerds in Ohio or Texas who might have to drive a few hours before getting to their store. Either way tho you can always buy from their website direct and I think a lot of people do that already. Of course limiting yourself in a recession is retarded, but if thats their wet dream so be it.
Ave Molech Setting
luddites, who woulda thunk it?
Rather than letting other firms pay the costs and bear the risks of selling their products for them, GW has chosen to invest in having their own stores. Now they find themselves competing with people distributing their OWN products - something which is really quite ridiculous. GW doesn't make the best business decisions I've decided. They haven't even expanded into table top role playing games, even though there so much interest in the possibility. I just don't get them.
http://reapermini.com/
And on the computer gaming front, they would make a killing if they released a half decent FPS or RTS. Instead they fear that it would harm sales of the table top games. And so no game will ever be released and they clamp down on ANY attempt to make a mod or an actual computer game. Anyone play Rites of War? HOW SHIT WAS THAT?
I know 2 local retailers (one of which was "Chapter Approved"--before their insane requirements for that kicked in) that are basically saying "Fuck GW!" and will liquidate their inventory and wont stock more of their overpriced games again. That's a pity since the games are really quite popular here. GW is going to nail their own coffin shut from the inside, I think. They really ought to pull their heads out of their asses.
So they wont sell to retailers that sell online.
No problem.
You set up two companies, one online, one off.
The offline company runs a retail location (address is street address of far away mailboxes etc). It sells to any and all -- shockingly its biggest account is.. duh duh DUUUh - the online company.
It aint brain science.. No retailer has to reveal who they sell to nor how much they sell at.
GPL'd web-based tradewars themed space game
The basic arguement for this is customer service. I'll use dive shops as I'm most familiar with those.
If you buy everything on line from the guy who is marking it up 5% then you'll be undercutting the store that marks it up 100%. The store closes since he can't keep up with the guy selling stuff out of his garage. The manufacturer looses out since a dealer is required to sell a product line where as the online guy is only going to sell the one or two hot items any one manufacturer makes. The customer also looses out since, like miniture gaming diving is a social activity. Store sponsor clubs and trips. They also conduct training which brings in fresh blood to the activity. There are also other services such as requipment repair, annual recertification, and tank fill that is not profitable but very necessary for divers. A shop will have these services while an online store will not. I can see the same rational the game company is using in order to keep their player base, support "game night" and tournaments, and have an experienced person for customers to talk to.
What I don't understand is why they don't do what many other manufacturer dealerships now require. If you want to sell online, you have to have a store front. The customer wins, the store wins, and the manufacturer wins.
So if they follow through with this, they might as well change their name from Games Workshop to Gee Who?
SCO to Hell
Part of the explanation given at that dealer's link is: "Therefore to protect their IP GW will be closing the internet to all uses of their intellectual property except for a handful of permitted images." Absolute HOGWASH. About the only thing you can't do with a copyrighted design is reproduce it for sale. Check the USA Copyright law ... they can not prevent anyone from taking a picture to use in an eBay ad or on an Internet sale site.
One of the explicitally allowed reproductions of copyrighted designs, such as a game figure or an expensive fabric, is to take a photo of it to use in advertising it for sale. You just have to take your own photos of it, not scavenge the manufacturer's site for photos.
Criticism and commentary is also permitted - again, if you want to talk about the good or bad design, just take your own picture of the products. Showing a picture of your favorite figure or your entire collection on your website is also OK as long as you take your own pictures.
Sure, it calls for you to get one to make the initial mold, but in the end you get a lightweight model that is FAR cheaper (less than a dime in materials), more resilient than plastic and lighter than metal, and it's easy to mod with a Dremel tool. My friend and I cast Obliterators every time we're over at his house. No way am I dropping $20 _each_ for a model that's a little bigger than a Terminator. J
First off, when Slashdot links to Dakkadakka I see my worlds colliding...big time.
I don't see the problem with GW wanting to stop internet resellers from undercutting their retail operations. Slashdotters should be all for this since the people who are hurt most by this reselling are the small local games shops. I've never seen an unsuccessful GW retail store but I've seen a lot of struggling independants. Part of that is because GW is mean to small retailers but most of it is because you can buy all your figs for 30% less on the internet. As for the foolishness of cutting off sales over the internet...in case you were unaware, GW has a pretty high capacity mail-order section. It's not like anybody with access to the internet is suddenly going to lose the ability to buy GW models. The GW web-site is certainly as easy to find as the NewWave site or the Wandering Mage or any of the other discount sites.
A lot of people have this strange belief that GW is somehow evil. They aren't. They sell a superior product at a premium price and what the heck is wrong with that? I really don't see how this tactic hurts GW in the long term.
-Pinkoir
Kill off all the less greedy stores selling the product online at a lesser rate, and suddenly anyone who doesn't live near a GW store can only shop at their website.
It's all about money, none of us will kid ourselves that it is otherwise.
I just wonder how anyone can actually come out with such an idea. I mean, somebody has to think it, present it, and get it accepted. Do they just blindly put such things into affect, or mull the PR cost of evil Vs profit?
They are going against the very foundation of business. If they trully believe that the presence of outside store sales is drawing away significant numbers of customers then they have two choices. Improve the incentive to come in the store or restrict anything but in store sales. They have obviously chosen the later and their stated reasons are pointless. They could just as easily have said, "We believe that users like to have their testicles removed by drunk Wookies in bunny suits." In business like in well, every other aspect of life you can become better through improvement and refining of yourself (and what you offer) or you can hamstring any competition. Personally I do not trust any company that sees the later as the beneficial business model. Only in a socialist controlled government can this model work. Perhaps they should solve the problem instead of running to big brother (the IP) and resorting to (perfectly legal admittingly) stupid business practices guaranteed to piss enough people off eventually so that they are run into the ground. They are gambling on humanity's inability to control urges and use logic to gain them a superior position in the long term. Hmmm, perhaps that is not such a bad gamble for them after all. Unethical and slimey... but probably safe. I almost forgot I am writing this on /., home of the "lets bitch about MPAA and then rush to LOTR."
Games Workship is a scummy company perfectly willing to damage the industry as a whole and screw their customer base to further their own bottom line.
As has been mentioned in many other posts, for your local store to be allowed to purchase Games Workshop products at anything approaching a reasonable price, they are required to carry the entire line. Their lines are quite large. As a result, when they release a new line (like Gorkamorka, or the starship combat game, or Mordheim), the local store needs to purchase everything just to test the waters. Sure enough, a year later when Games Workshop abandons the line the poor local shop has a backstock of the unwanted products that they can't get rid of. They're pretty much the only people in the industry pulling this crap.
Interestingly, Games Workship is the only gaming company I'm aware of that is actively trying to distance themselves from the industry. Sure, every company wants to be the biggest and dominate the industry. Most companies also realize that helping the industry grow as a whole is good for everyone involved. Games Workshop doesn't believe in the "Gaming Hobby", no, it's the "Games Workshop Hobby." They attend gaming conventions, but one gets a very stand-offish feeling from them. They even run their own stores so they can preserve their little closed world. (The stores are creepy. Most gaming stores are little things to keep rent down, jam packed with product to give you the best selection possible. Games Workshop's stores are mostly empty, their product line entirely fitting on the outer walls. I never get a sense that they're run for the love of the industry, instead I get the same polished sense of sleeze I get from those weird hyper-specialized mall stores that sell a single product (like one specific mattress).)
Games Workshop doesn't really like their customers either. For example, to participate in a tournament, you need official Games Workshop (Citadel) miniatures. And not just any Games Workship miniatures, but only miniatures from the latest edition. Given that a typical army could run several hundred dollars, it seems a bit mean spirited to expect players to buy (and spend hours painting) an entirely new army with ever new rules revision.
Add to this some of the most overpriced minatures ever. Games Workshop's plastic miniatures are often more expensive than nice metal miniatures from other companies. Sure, GW puts out good quality minis, but they're not worth the 50% or more premium. Fortunately we seem to have having a bit of a rebirth of smaller miniature producers, so we're seeing a wealth of high quality, reasonably priced minis.
Yes, all of this is legal, but I think it's wrong. Games Workshop would happily destroy the rest of the industry, kill popular genres of gaming, and establish a restrictive monopoly if they could figure out how. They're bad for gaming on the whole, gamers should steer clear.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
... that led us to write Shellshock.
:)
I can't believe any retailer would do this, but after watching the guys from GW at a convention, I can see how it would be them.
Now, granted, my buddy and I wrote and sell our own miniatures game, (which is also free, as in beer, on our website) so you can take this comment with whatever amount of suspicion you like...
We attended a con where someone from GW was there. The people who ran the con had paid to fly him in from England and put him in a hotel and everything. He was one of their special guests... There was a tourney contest where the winner got the chance to go up against the rep from GW. The entire con the GW rep talked about how no GW rep had ever lost to a player. Finally, this kid (maybe 13 or 14 years old) wins the tourney. The GW rep says he gets to not only pick the terrain they are going to fight in, but also gets to pick BOTH armies. This kid was so excited he didn't care, but the rest of were a little suspicious. Turned out we were justified as the GW rep picked this thick dense jungle terrain, gave himself an army full of close combat and melee troops, and then gave the kid a bunch of sniper and long range weapon types. Until now, it was the single most vile thing I had ever seen a game company do. (Funny sidenote, the kid almost won too, that's how bad this guy sucked.) The guys who ran the con were furious and said they'd never invite anyone from GW back, and never have.
So, I can totally expect this from these guys. Can't complain too much though, since it can only help my meager sales...
WWJD?
JWRTFM!
There's a demand for the product. The gamers have invested money, time, and pride in buying, learning to play, and becoming proficient with their games. It will be hard for them to quit the game--or even to quit trying to engage new players.
Apparently the marketing folks have decided they've accumulated a "critical mass" of players. The product now "sells itself".
The manufacturer no longer needs the exposure of multiple outlets for their product. What they need now is the ability to tightly control the perceived value (and the selling price) of their product.
Good marketing plan, IM[cynical]O.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
I mean, let's use a little bit of common sense here: You've got a product to sell. Maybe some people out there want to buy it. In that case, you must make this product as visible as possible so that people who might buy it will buy it!
That's how things work! Some person or company feels like producing some kind of product. Some people or companies might feel like buying that product. It doesn't matter what rationale goes into the decision to make or buy the product. What matters is the fact that everybody does what they want. As such, I don't blame this Games Workshop or whatever for their decision. It's just their decision... The FACT that this will COST them in sales is simply the result of the formula that is the marketplace.
So, yeah... they're dumbasses.
I doubt Games Workshop would do this if a significant portion of their income came from online realtors. As a result, they probably think their bottom line won't change very much as a result of this policy. What they don't realize is that many people, especially including geeks, research products online before purchasing them anywhere. They want to see pictures, read comments, and look at prices, even if they don't purchase online.
Thus, this policy will cost Games Workshop more than they think it will.
...Dalling Road, Hammersmith, London, when the very first Games Workshop opened. They were just some little store selling an obscure game most people hadn't heard of. It's very sad that many years ago they turned their back on all games other than Warhammer and guard it so jealously. OTOH I'm amazed at how large they've grown so obviously it's a good strategy.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
How is that anything like GW not allowing online retailers to sell their products?
This looks like a problem that I will post on my worry list right below "getting the stamps on the envelope straight"
mike
That logic applies to optics, too: elite Zeisses and Swarovskis have pricing arrangements that won't let you advertize anything lower than a certain level, partly so physical stores won't get abused like that. Doesn't prevent the problem there, either.
The thing is, if they really want the physical stores to be worth their prices, they need to be providing something that doesn't vanish, pfoof, once the product's sold. With optics and stereos, the warranty means an awful lot to some people. (Do I want to ship my $1000 binoculars back to some New York camera shop, or do I want to let the local place handle it, no-questions-asked, for my lifetime?)
How can these stores offer me something that'll last past the sale? Something to do with tounraments at the stores? That partly explains the requirement in Tourney rules that you've got to use their miniatures ONLY -- but that's a sort of value through contrived scarcity, and the consumer sees the company as forcing stuff down his throat.
Either way this is wrongheaded. They should find some way to give the stores an edge by offering something more. They're subtracting instead of adding, in more ways than one.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Now you will have venture into the outdoors to buy your miniatures.
If GW go bust, it'll do the RPG industry a world of good.
They decimate local gaming scenes when they open a store. The independant retailers in the area can't compete on price and also suddenly have enormous difficulty getting GW products which were till then profitable lines for them, they fairly quickly go out of business. Then the product lines available in the GW stores become very very limited and rather expensive.
The independant retailers weren't just shops, they were enthusiasts as well, hosting gaming evenings and with wide choice of rpg products from many companies small and large.
If GW want to commit financial suicide, I'll do everything I can to help them.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
My father-in-law goes to high-end stereo shops to pump the guys for information and then buys his stereo equipment at Best Buy. He doesn't understand why I get so annoyed with him about this.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
I can sum up my experience by saying by the time I had read the first three sentences of your post, I was lost. I know the concept of these games, but I don't get the attraction. If the point is to use your skills, read up on it, and build your army of whatever and come up with a strategy, then why are you asking some clerk about it? I would think you would read up on it, and come up with your own ideas and strategy. Need to talk to others? Gee, I have to imagine that there is some internet discussion forum where this is the topic of heated debates. :-)
I don't get these games, just like I didn't get D&D back in the day. It's just not my bag. But from what I've observed, part of the fun was figuring it out, being creative. Or maybe talking with your friends about it - not some salesman at a store.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Thought I'd take the opportunity to put my (british) 2p in. I used to play Warhammer 40k, dabbled with Adeptus Titanicus (think Mechwarrior but bigger and darker), and a number of the other GW games. Collected White Dwarf until about issue 130, with back issues down to about #20.
I gave up wargaming altogether at about age 13 when a blister of overscale lead minatures went from GBP 3 to GBP 4 overnight. I still think Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has one of the richest and most interesting backgrounds of any RPG (renaissance fantasy with Lovecraftian undertones would be the best description I can think of).
I do know a fair bit of the history of GW, both gleaned from the trade press and from conversations I've had with people who've met Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone (not the Steve Jackson of Illuminati:NWO, Car Wars, GURPS, etc fame). I've also met people who've applied for jobs with GW, both retail and creative. (I live in Birmingham, about an hour or so from GW's headquarters and design studios in Nottingham, UK.)
It would probably be fair to say that GW started the Apple of the gaming world, before morphing into the Microsoft-equivalent. It was started by a pair of hippies in a flat in London, making wooden chess and backgammon boards. I'm not too sure about the early years, but by the mid 1980's White Dwarf magazine was probably the best general roleplaying magazine available in the world, it covered AD&D, Call of Cthulhu, Runequest and many others large and small. The GW chain of shops stocked roleplaying games from a range of publishers, and minatures from Citadel (GW's subsidiary), and others. At some point Warhammer Battle appeared, as did a few other gems like UK editions of Call of Cthulhu, and Runequest; the Judge Dredd roleplaying game; and wonderful boardgames like Fury of Dracula, Curse of the Mummy's Tomb, and Blockmania. At this point in time they were seriously good roleplaying/wargaming shops, with a bloody good design studio turning out a range of quality product.
The aforementioned pair of hippies, Steve Jackson and Iain Livingstone got themselves a new hobby: writing Fighting Fantasy choose your own adventure books. This proved to be a fair bit more lucrative than running Games Workshop, so at some point in the mid to late 80's they sold up and over three or four years GW became the company you see today.
The basic marketing idea GW use these days is to catch'em young, preferably before the age of 10, and try to convince these kids that GW comprise the the known gaming universe. Hence the attempt to restrict distribution to sites that they control, to prevent impressionable young minds from realising that companies and people other than Games Workshop make cool and interesting games and minatures.
Even after switching all of their production over to lead-free metal a few years ago, which was a major re-tooling effort, the mark-up on minatures is pretty huge, especially when you have that much market share (kids pocket money is big business these days) and control over what minatures are fielded in competition/leagues, which are admittedly a good way to chill and meet people when you're a young geek. The move to more plastic minatures was mainly a cost-saving issue, as well as a way to break into a slightly younger market.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay was licensed to Hogshead publishing, which was the best thing that ever happened to it (I was one of the people who waited 15 years for a supplement described in the first edition of the rulebook as 'in progress').
Anyway, I hope that gives you a little more insight into GW, personally I got back into minatures when I saw Flintloque, dammn good fun and easy to get started (between 6-12 minatures a side is a good skirmish, the rules work well with more players, each person controls their own squad of minatures. Plus, the minatures are way cool, Orc redcoats and Elven Voltigeurs, wargaming was meant to be this way.
Chainmail Brand to Be Discontinued after August 2002
-M-
"Life is all about strategy, mathematics and psychological perceptiveness."
According to a friend of mine who's in tight with GW, this is not only affecting Internet Sals, but also mailorder. You'll only be able to mailorder stuff directly through GW, and not anywhere else.
This is the sound of a company shooting their own brains out.
It's better to burn out than to fade away
A deal in which a retailer agrees not to operate an e-commerce site in exchange for the ability to purchase the supplier's goods -- part of a class of contracts broadly known as "non-price vertical restraints" -- is subject to the "rule of reason:" the proscription is examined in conjunction with the competitive state of the market to determine if the activity is illegal.
Generally speaking, these contracts have been upheld; see, e.g., O.S.C. v. Apple, 792 F.2d 1464, 1469-70 (9th Cir. 1986) and H.L. Hayden Co. v. Siemens, 879 F.2d 1005, 1014 (10th Cir., 1989), both upholding the ability of suppliers to contractually foreclose dealers' ability to sell products via mail-order.
However, there is a caveat: since GW operates its own e-commerce site, it's in horizontal competition with its dealers. This doesn't automatically mean that the restraint becomes horizontal (and, indeed, the penumbra of antitrust law suggests it does not), but it does give some squeaking room for lawyers who want to challenge those restrictions.
Nonetheless, the preponderance of the law is on GW's side, especially since (unless things have changed in the decade or so since I last played a tabletop game) the market is very competitive. It's very unlikely to my mind that a successful challenge to this restraint could be mounted.
"Freedom is kind of a hobby with me, and I have disposable income that I'll spend to find out how to get people more."
You have an excellent point. The only time I buy anything in the stores is last years stuff that is being let go at cost. That coupled with the fact that I live absolutely out in the freakin middle of nowhere, I like to let UPS and FedX do my driving for me. That and I do not like contributing to the California Tax base since they just piss it away on dumb programs. Round-trip times Movies 1h30min The Mall & Shopping 2h15min Taco Bell 57min It makes little sense that they're attacking online since mail-order has been around for forever and that was the only way to get alot of the minitures and games back in my day.
And even the guys in a GameWorks or Games Workshop or other "big" chain store usually work there because they like games. They may not be as die-hard about it as the owner of a little independent store, but they are usually good sources of info. Yeah, you could just go to some online messageboard, but what's wrong with face-to-face socialization? And what if you're 14, don't have a credit card, and can't convice Mom or Dad to buy stuff online for you? You take your cash and you go to the store after school with your friends. You hang out, talk about stuff, buy whatever's new, and talk to the owner, since he is the local All-Knowing, All Seeing Oz.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
...and it doesn't sound like they are, they'll set up a referral program where game stores can list the product with a "buy it" link that sends the buyer to the manufacturer's online store. The game store should, of course, get a percentage of the sale.
:(
I suspect it's much more likely that we'll be seeing a slew of OOP! auctions on ebay by the end of the year.
I think one thing the miniature gaming market has going for it is investment. Take any pen n' paper game. The entrance cost is very low (say 30 bucks for your average rulebook) and as you add books content expands astoundingly. And if you want to start a new game? No sweat: no gaming system rules are so opaque as to not be transferable. GURPS supplements using White Wolf's system in the Traveller univers, etc. It's only numbers and letters.
Miniatures on the otherhand are somewhat... specialized. Just to play as one army requires a huge investement and any variation you need to do is more money. Switch up style of play, new figures. Switch to a new army, new figures. "We've just released the latest version of the game that just blows away anything else and... oh its uncompatible with the old", new figures. And if you want to get out, new figures. Sure, if your buddies are good, you don't care. But it is still there: the pressure to commit by buying more pewter and plastic.
I got out of GW games about eight years ago, right before the latest incarnation of their big series. They were putting more and more into larger units and special characters that were the 40+ dollar minis. They biased the game towards these characters making it necessary to augment your Space Marines with an Evesor Assassin (they explode when you cook 'em) or a Leman Russ. Besides, their writing began to suck/contradict earlier writing, I had to get out. I must have spent a half a grand on my various things... and I got less than 100.
What is music when you despise all sound?
Normally I hate legal action but this sounds like a great case. Refusal to deal is an offence under Canadian competition law. Surely the USA has something similar?
Poorhammer is a game made up by myself and some of my poor friends. What you do is buy plastic Army men, aliens, robots, dinosaurs, cowboys, lego-men, whatever, make up rules for them, and fight to the death. We based our rules off of the actual Warhammer rules.
Strange, a black car just pulled into the drivew
Anyone remember the issues they had with the old mail order catalog Wargames West? When you start selling things yourself on the cheap no one wants to be your distributor. Now that they are getting lots of licensed GW stores it's not hard to believe that they would push other stores out. I don't buy their stuff anymore - too damn expensive.
I have actually been in a GameWorks, I went to lunch with a couple of friends who were into it and they went in to buy some stuff. To tell you the truth, the place kind of creeped me out. And I didn't see anyone working too hard in there either.
:-D [/flamebait]
I've never been to GW, but we had something similar here called Dreamlands, sounds like the same sort of place. Creeped me out too, but I guess that's how the "experience" they deliver is to normal people
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
That means that if you want to play with the latest rules, you have to buy twice as many models. What's worse, GW sponsored tournaments have upped the army point limit from 1500 points to 1800 points, so you have to buy even more models.
Here's another example. Registration for a GW sponsored tournament? 175$. That gives you access to the floor, a T-shirt and that's about it.
The game is ridiculously popular, and it is a blast to play however. Still, I wonder how much this will affect sales. My guess is not very much.
Phemur
the attraction to games workshop style games. My friend tried to get me into it. I enjoyed painting the overpriced plastic models with overpriced paint but then he took me to a game. My brain neary went into self destruct mode. After 3 hours of watching 30 people measure attack distances and squabble over bits of plastic i walked out and went home without saying a word to anyone.
Slashdot - The one stop shop for procrastination
Several years ago (I cannot remember the exact date), Wizards of the Coast made a decree that their products could only be sold by businesses that actually maintained a real "brick and mortar" store. (You could still sell them on the internet, but only if you also sold them over the counter at your real live storefront).
A great cry arose, because up until that point the players had been very happy buying their product from the internet-only shops at up to 40% off. The internet-only shops would order giant loads of the product from distributors at a volume discount, and then sell it at way below the recommended retail price because they, the internet shops, did not have to pay for such mundane things as rent and taxes and employees behind the counter and so on.
What most outraged bargain-hunters failed to realize, however, was that Magic the Gathering (and Pokemon and all other card games and to a large degree games like Warhammer and HeroClix) exist and continue to exist because people can go to shops and meet new players and play regularly and go to tournaments. This is a cycle of renewal for the game, continuously introducing established players to newer ones and vice-versa. The local shops are the places that provide this area to play and trade, and in most areas the local shops also run the tournaments. If players could keep buying 40% discount cards from the internet, the shops that provided these essential services to the community at large would go out of business, and those games would slowly lose players and die out.
Internet shops do not care about such things. They wish to make many bucks as fast as possible until their own business practices parasitically kill the very industry that supports them, then they will move on to the next big thing.
This is no doubt why Games Workshop has made a move to stop this trend.
I have a friend who used to do phone sales to stores, over an area that spanned several states. He worked in Baltimore with all of the guys who do sales to stores for the whole country.
He always said that Games Workshop chooses to do things the high-end way. Good materials for their models, much better sculpting (I mean, seriously, just *compare* them, and you'll see what I mean), etc. They *know* that their stuff costs way more, and that's the way they *choose* to do business. Call them the Mercedes of the tabletop gaming world, if you will. And their growth rate, even with internet retailers, even with crappy knock-offs, has been phenomenal.
Having said that, I never played much, because it's more money than I'm willing to shell out for that kind of casual hobby.
According to my friend, the problem he had with his stores was they always want to half-a$$ it. They want to carry only a portion of the figures, so when the new blood elves come out (or whatever), Joe Kid can't find them at his local store. They don't get enough of the new stuff. They don't run tournaments. They have stuff from years back and will sell it to newbies without telling them what they're getting. Basically, retailers want to stock GW products as cheaply as possible, but they cut their own throats by giving the kids a crappy introduction to the game and putting a lot of hurdles in the way of getting new figures.
My friend said that for those stores who were willing to do it right (which seems like quite a risk to the storeowner, because stocking the whole line is expensive), he had *never* had a store that didn't grow quite rapidly. He worked the western US, and had a store in the middle of Utah (and not SLC), with practically no population, that did great while stocking the whole line, running tournaments, etc. My friend firmly believed that they could make *any* retail store successful, if the store would just do it right. And yet it was still a constant battle against cheapskates who were giving people a bad image of Warhammer.
So, GW takes that situation into their own hands, with their own retail stores. And on the internet, it's the same deal. This guarantees that the web site stocks the whole line, all the time, including the new stuff. The information is complete and up-to-date. The stuff is shipped in a way that conforms to certain standards, and so on.
At least, that's the line I got, from somone who used to be on the inside. He left a couple of years ago.
Actually it's more like Manufacturing: $0.25 -> Wholesale $4.50 -> Retail $5.95. I have 2002 pricebook listing the wholesale and suggested retail pricing from Games Workshop if you are interested. They are an evil evil corporation. Their main strong-arm tactic was to refuse sales to any business that also carried their main competitors product, cheaper knock-offs of the original GW figures. The local hobby stores were faced with discontinuing all GW products in favor of an alternative that only offered about half the product line. All the shops continued carrying the GW products and were met with a lot of confused looks when all the half-priced models that were so popular suddenly disappeared off the shelves.
One thing many of you don't seem to consider, is that most gamers (cards, tabletop, etc) spread information by word of mouth. When it comes to gaming stores, word of mouth can keep you alive or kill you off, pure and simple. Also from my experience, most gamers like to experience a game 'hands on' (by either borrowing an army and playing, or just watching) before getting involved and seriously investing their money.
All GW qualms aside, look at it like this: online stores undercut local stores -> local stores start going out of business -> less people get exposure to the games (and experienced players) -> your target market doesn't get "new blood".
I frequent a local store and have seen it time and time again: younger people (Yu-gi-oh players, as the trend is now) playing card games, see the 40K gamers and think "Hey, that's pretty cool. Maybe I should try that sometime..."
There is something to be said for 'the in-store experience' when it comes to future players of games like these. Seeing products online doesn't get you interested in a game quite like watching a few people hash out a 2000 point game of Chaos versus Necrons... ;)
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
I just see this policy as backfiring on the manufacturer. This is not like Best Buy promising to stop selling Compaq computers, if Compaq started selling online. This is a company that is a manufacturer, as well as a retailer. They want to centralize the availability online.
Ultimately, they will stop selling to resellers as well. They are hoping to get synergy, and become "THE" place to buy their stuff.
It does smack a bit of Apple and Power Computing (remember them?). If a web site is selling their stuff cheaper than they are, and the do a better job of it, then they have to attack.
I don't blame them, honestly. But they do need to put money behind their web site, and get the word out.
what? what I thought we were in the trust tree in the nest, were we not?
Which United States are you talking about? The supplier can set conditions exactly like that, it is a simple matter of contract. For example, why do you suppose Nintendo Game Cubes and Sony PS/2s were exactly the same price at all those different stores when first released? It certainly isn't a coincidence or just the 'suggestion' of the manufacturer.
Price fixing involves competitors agreeing to prop up prices, not the supplier. There is a fairly non-leaglized decription available from the US DOJ. Also, it is far more likely that fines and symbolic restitution will apply rather than prison time.
How is limiting the number of sales outlets for your product supposed to improve your profitability? How is making the purchase of your products more difficult an improvement for the consumer?
It seems rather obvious to me that if their retail stores are being undercut by Internet sales, the obvious thing is to jettison the unprofitable stores and sell directly to consumers through the Internet.
But what do I know?
There is much pleasure to be gained in useless knowledge.
we're all dead, in the long run. In the mean time, those that can, take profits through means that may hurt their business "in the long run".
You know, I never really cared for the whole Games Workshop miniatures system line anyways. They had a few good games (Blood Bowl and Man 'O War come to mind), but they also fostered this elitist attitude amongst their patrons that if you didn't own ALL the minis, and have them ALL painted up perfectly, then you couldn't play the game.
Sorry, I didn't feel like spending thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours just so I could actually PLAY the game for a few hours a week. At least Mage Knight had the idea of selling pre-painted figures for those who don't have the time to spend preparing to play games, and would rather play them.
Now before everyone fires up their flamethrowers, *I* would have sold both pre-painted AND unfinished minis, since that way you can get both audiences (charge a little extra for the painted ones of course).
GW needs to remember why they exist. They started out publishing RPG rules (I still like the original Warhammer Fantasy Role-Playing book), and got into miniatures as a side-item to accentuate role-playing games. Now, they are firmly in the miniatures ARE the game role, but seem to think they invented the concept.
So go ahead GW, snob your way out of your own market. Someone will take your place, and they might just make something original again, the way you used to do back in the 90's.
They are not targeting a younger crowd, they're targeting 15-21yr olds in europe and 20+ in the US (American kids can't handle it young). They will actually refuse to sell to kids younger than about 12 in the UK.
New edition 40K dense compared to Rogue Trader? get real. If you've actually read them both, Rogue Trader is the one full of dense, arbitrary rules. They were much, much simplified in later editions.
"More important to win than play" is a USian concept, not a GW concept. Staff are trained to stress exactly the opposite when teaching kids to play.
GW is very much a company of gamers still. Sure, you can't expect everyone to play, so most of the IT and HR depts aren't gamers, but most people on the creative and sales side are. The US particularly so.
Sure, they have their problems as a company, but they are not the malovent, evil, all powerful dictatorship bent on world domination that you would like us to believe. They are just a company trying to make the best games they can, and of course sell as many of them as they can.
If you don't like rules play a different game,
If you think they're too expensive (and they are), buy someone else's miniatures,
If you think you can do it better, then go on.
No one is forcing anyone to play GW games.
Get a life.
(And yes, I did used to work there)
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GAW.L&d=c&k=c1&a=v &p=s&t=1y&l=off&z=m&q=l
Can't you have them send you a hard copy via the postal service?
Ok, I for one will never again buy a GW product firsthand. Even if I end up paying more(unlikely, but even if) I'll get what I need used from ebay...
This is unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. Guess those 2000 points(and close to 600 dollars or more) I won't be getting...
you haven't figured out that they are just one big scam by now, you will probably put up with it and continue to pay huge outrageous sums of money for their crap (and it is crap - $15 for a 2" pewter figurine!?!?!?!)
Well, along with WotC/Hasbro maybe, that is.
There was a simular stunt by GW in the early 90s in germany. When gaming still wasn't completley spoiled by trading cards (Save Gaming! Kill a Magic Player today!). They wanted to force all Fanatasy Shops to take a certain minimum amount of GW games and use a certain amount of display space to sell them. The german retailers got the drift and boykotted GW for more than half a year. After that GW started opening up their own shops.
It had become evident that they wanted to test the market to check for the best locations for GW-only shops. The Warhammer RPG was quite ok, but since these people have been suckers as long as I've been gaming (just as long as I'm into computing - 15 years) I've never really cared anyway.
Bottom line:
Don't buy stuff from GW, there are plenty of other, better gaming products, table tops and such out there!
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
They can't specify the selling price; that's illegal. However, they can refuse to supply you with any more merchandise if you don't take their suggestion. It's a subtle point but I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.
I think it mainly applies to "advertised" price. This is why you see some sites that say "click 'buy' to see our low price" - at that point they're not advertising, you've stated an interest in buying and you're just "negotiating."
As much as I hate paying 5-10 for a tiny bit of "white metal" they do have a point. It is that part of the GW experience can be enhanced significantly by an active hobby shop. Things like teaching people how to play, organizing tournaments, teaching basic and advanced painting skills, and other things that help to introduce new players to the game and enhance the game for experienced players. Without these things coming from either a group of friends or a friendly hobby store, I doubt most of us would have ever picked up or kept going with the game. If enough people buy occasionally from the store to take advantage of their hobby building activities but buys the majority of their minis over the internet at steep discounts, they will eventually force the higher cost stores out of business.
Games Workshop is trying to protect these higher cost, but beneficial stores from such ativities, that they own several of these high cost stores makes their actions look less savory, but they do have a valid concern. Although for areas that don't have a full service store, or no store at all, but do have a gaming club, the benefits should flow to the clubs, which serve the same purpose as an active hobby shop. I would suggest that they could organize in the form of a co-op and order wholesale.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
This situation with GW is just like the one with Apple because "they both stopped selling (different things) to (different people)".
...
You'll have to forgive me if I think that this comparison of GW with Apple amounts to little more than a sour grapes, "I don't like Apple, and I don't like this, so they must be similar" comparisson, rather than a particularly accurate or close one. The original poster could have chosen any company at random and made the same comparison, given the amazing vagueness of these criteria.
It does smack a bit of Apple and Power Computing (remember them?). If a web site is selling their stuff cheaper than they are, and the do a better job of it, then they have to attack.
Funny, I thought the moral of the Apple / Power Computing scenario was:
If a buisness decision to license your technology to a competitor is killing your company, for god sake's stop licenseing the technology!
News Flash: GW was sued today by the department of commerce for breach of leal concurrency after a claim of refusing to supply a retailer.
[this can really happen because there is laws that must be meet to be allowed to market things - i would imagine that they are more interested in killing its retailer network then anything else - are they position themselfs for a takeover? One must ask this questions because it isn't normal for a company to shot at it's foot!]
1)Sell GW works at cost, to one person.
2)That person sells their privetly owned goods on ebay
3)Profit.
the fact that the person is there spouse is merely y coincidence.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
In the United States if you demand that a retailer sell something at a certain price, or you try to force the issue, you can go to jail.
But you won't. This sort of problem is usually handled by a slap on the wrist, if at all.
take over?
Perhaps the Blumes?
This is,actually, funny AND on topic, you just need to undersand the history of another large and well known Game company.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I think one of GW's concerns is exactly what could be going on where I live.
The local comic store just got done spending several thousands of dollars to update their website so they could start selling comics through it.
One wonders if the next step would have been GW stuff.
I wouldn't think GW would be too happy about this from the standpoint that many of these locally owned stores do steeply discount stuff 'under the counter'. Not just for employees but also for regular customers.
This could be done exponentially for 'friends-of-friends' through the internet.
So, for instance...if you were good friends with the store owner and move away you could still get your steep discount with no one else being the wiser. (Something which is supposidly completely against GW's current policy.)
And as for someone earlier comparing them to Apple...there's a big difference.
Apple has struggled a long time with their retailers to offer the assistance and expert knowledge on their products which just hasn't happened in most cases. Take for instance this university I'm at where a local PC shop got the Apple contract back in the 1980's and only 'then' did they hire people and have them get trained on what Macintosh's actually were. (The other officially licenced store in town which was only sold Apple was left out in the cold because the PC shop had politcally connections with the university.)
This isn't the case with GW. More so than not, if people are selling the gaming stuff through a storefront they have a clue about what they're selling. Not so with internet sales.
Maybe GW just got tired of people buying stuff through the net and then calling them with complaints and wanting customer support.
To me, this is just the local retailers crying in their beer because they thought they could have it all three ways. Have a storefront, undercut the local flea-market crowd, and give their employees, friends, wives, second counsins, etc. discounts that they weren't suppose to give in the first place.
Also, I think your standards are a little high for what constitutes something totally new. In the 8-ish years since I stopped playing (yeah, I didn't play very long), I see they've introduced several new Warhammer fantasy armies: the Lizardmen, the Tomb Kings, the Vampire Counts, and the Dogs of War. They seem to have phased out the Undead (unless the Vampire Counts are simply the undead renamed). They've introduced several new games. I only played Warhammer fantasy, but I don't recall seeing their space game (Spaceship Gothic, or something like that), or Mordheim when I was playing. The Lord of the Rings stuff is all new.
They also had a number of unsuccessful projects, including a game involving ocean-going ships, several forays into computer games, and I'm sure a number of other projects I never heard about. No, they haven't been revolutionizing gaming or anything, but I think that for a niche hobby market, they've made a competent effort to add to their line of products.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I picked the best time to get into this game, don't ya think? Now I don't have to deal with those 3rd party retailers who sell the figures at a more reasonable price. I can't wait to go back to the store tomorrow and spend $20 on 5 ounces of pewter.
There was a full page in a recent White Dwarf (GW's Hobby Magazine) that clearly said any old, out of print GW, Marauder or Citadel miniatures were fully usable in GW games.
In fact, GW seems to be lightening it's rules, at a recent official tournament, armies were allowed to include non-GW figures. You can see pics at games-workshop.com.
The trick here is that Games Workshop DEPENDS on the physical market process. Most Warhammer 40K is played in stores that have play areas set up. People buy the game so that they can play it in the store- I've never played a game in my house and probably never will, because I don't have the room. The store, in turn, sets aside a place for me to play so that I'll buy the stuff from them. If everybody buys their GW stuff online for less than the store can charge, then nobody needs to waste money buying at the store, and suddenly the store sees no reason to have that space available for people to play in (Or, if they're too focused on GW products, they go belly-up). Result: Nobody has a place to play, they stop buying GW products online, end of GW. Perhaps the stores could make money charging people to play, but I doubt it. I understand GW's reasoning here- they HAVE to protect the revenue stream of individual, physical hobby stores, or their own revenue stream dies. It's been said several times in this discussion that another company will come along and let their stuff be sold on the Internet and eat GWs market share. Won't happen. If enough people are buying their stuff online to make a big difference to the company's revenue, then enough people are buying stuff online to take a big chunk out of physical stores revenue, and they won't find it worthwhile to organize games for this company, set up places to play it, etc, and so nobody has a place to play it, so nobody needs to buy it, game over.
akhumm, anybody? Yes, I do spend too much time here, and used to spend too much time on other GW like gaming--I think I'm obsesive/compulsive or something.
The removal of anything other than GW products and retailers has been part of their strategy for a long time.
Also, obliteration of the past... Nick Lund (I am sure) was a designer of their miniatures, his style is distinctive. He ended up working for grenadier, and GW then referred to his miniatures as being designed by GW. Which is fine for a corporation, sure, but it makes you realise, it ain't nothing but.
Perhaps you saw it six years ago because they have been increasing in size and thus in ability to use these sort of tactics, but those tactics have been around a long while now.
My estimate? perhaps the turn was 15 years ago.
...if Warhammer becomes a product primarily sold online. Comic shops aren't going out of business just because online stores sell Games Workshop products.
What's that got to do with anything, you ask. Well, I'm getting to it. A comic shop near me was having an "anime fest", where they showed a lot of anime for free.
I went there and spent $10 on candy, Bawls, and Magic cards; I also spent $10 on a Gundam model kit.
The point is, I went for anime, and spent just as much on completely unrelated items as I did on anime-related merchandise. So similarly, even if a comic/gaming shop didn't sell GW products, even if they were only selling generic supplies and scenery... if they set up a few tables for Warhammer players, they could make money off of impulse buys and related equipment, while preserving the community.
The world can be wrong today for once.
I was an original Magic:TG player (since unlimited), then my love of the medieval time period got me into Warhammer. After a short amount of time in the game I realized that it was damn near scam level. They take price gouging to another level.
I know every GW player cries the blues over the $0.10 figures going for $6.00+, but it doesn't end there. GW has this ego problem that shines through quite clearly.
They sell little plastic/pewter casted figures for Jeebus sakes! Not too long after my initial foray into Warhammer, I broke out of the "tournament" scene, my friend had a great source of similar (non GW) figures... we spent $40.00 each and had armies of an epic scale. The fun was back, and my wallet was quite a bit happier too.
Discwar's was pretty cool too, we got a chance to play test it before it came out and I can highly recommend it. Little cardboard pog-like things instead of miniatures, decent play mechanics, and you can cary an army in a small baseball card holder. GW's time is over, I hope they go down in flames from this move!
www.GamezCore.com For Hardcore PS2 Gamerz : By Hardcore PS2 Gamerz
I haven't seen anyone yet speak of the alternatives to miniture gaming. First miniture gaming I did was with Civil War, then a little World War II...
d Ro s/hrindex.html
There are Alternatives to the evils that seem to be GamesWorkshop.
Take this link for instance:
http://www.alnavco.com/warship.htm
Deals in WWII naval minitures
http://www.nerc.com/~atak/
Deals in WWII Armor minitures
Here is a store to order various other historic aspects:
http://www.lastsquare.com/MiniCatalog/Heroicsan
What I'm trying to get across is there are other options, and if those of us who do have an interest in war gaming, why not attempt a little boycott of Microsft wanna be?
You are reading too much into it. Games Workshop hasn't shown itself to be very tolerant or considerate a company IMO, but they are primarily alone on this. TSR (now under Wizards of the Coast) hasn't pulled anything like this, instead they have made going to your local gaming store a value-added experience. Buy a copy of the Epic Level Handbook, get a free set of "Jester Dice," a magical item featured in the book. Buy a copy of d20 Modern and get a free patch of the Knights of the Silver Dragon. I got that sewn on my RPGA T-Shirt. And tell me how the internet is the enemy of roleplaying when it brings together more people. RPGs used to have to spread via word of mouth and the once-in-awhile friend who played. Nowadays I can go and get OpenRPG (OpenRPG's site) and find some people to play nearly anything. Or the MSN group for Continuum by AetherCo (The Yet its called).
The internet has done nothing but help bring roleplayers together. This just encourages more purchases.
As for miniature gamers: Miniatures for RPGs was always a bite of a niche market anyways, miniatures for wargames are nearly garunteed. I've only seen one decent representation of a miniature wargame so the miniature gamers pretty much are stuck in the real world as it stands.
what an ideal time to just get a new hobby. after all they are just stupid little metal dolls. then you pretend to fight with them. (thank god for natural selection)
My estimate? perhaps the turn was 15 years ago.
I think a bit more than that. White Dwarf used to be a great magazine, carrying articles on classic games like AD&D, Traveller and Runequest.
It took from 1986 (Warhammer announced) to 1987 (last AD&D article) for them to turn it around from probably the best games magazine around to a house catalogue.
Timeline.
I run events for the GW competition.
Suffice it to say, GW wants to control the whole mini-gaming hobby. From the glue, models, paint, terrain, rules, sales, dice, etc.
WizKids has been pounding on GW since they invented MageKnight in 2000. Basically, WK made it random and collectible, like Magic: The Gathering or Pokemon. The figures are prepainted. This hits the gotta catch-em-all and play with it now crowd. Something that GW misses.
BTW, online sales weren'the only ones undercutting GW prices. I know more than a few shops that gave 25% discounts on GW product, to combat GW's huge cost.
Basically GW costs $200 to get decent game army, whereas WK costs $50 to get a decent game army build. It's cheaper, and you're able to play out of the box.
So, if GW wants to further alienate retailers, which hurts players, no problem. They'll go find some other game to play.
Sorry I don't remember the ruling, but recently a pack of US judges reasonably (imagine that) decided that any seller is allowed to post pictures of the product that is being sold. (I think they even said it doesn't matter if they are copyrighted pictures by the manufacturer that were provided for advertisement/promotional purposes.) Sometimes even guys in robes get it right :-)
Show me the reports and I'll believe this "leaps and bounds" nonsense.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ