Slashdot Mirror
Is the Seeking of Lost Skills/Arts a Hacking Analog?
bigattichouse asks: "Having just finished my first batch of home-brew beer, I've been thinking about my attraction to 'lost arts', and collecting books on 'how to do stuff'. Some I try, some I just read: metalsmithing, sewing, baking bread, making soap, knot tying, brewing beer, woodcarving, yogurt and cheese.. there are so many skills 'lost' in the modern 'american' lifestyle... but I find my fellows tend to have books on these subjects lying around, too. Is this common in geekdom? Is this an expression of 'hacking' outside of machinery/engineering?"
I think this guy's right. If you really want to see a bunch of nerds going crazy with esoteric endeavors, look no further than the Society for Creative Anachronism. They're pretty much the only people left in the world who make battle-quality chain mail, scale mail, and plate mail in the medieval style.
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
Thats why their geeks. The thirst for knowledge need not be contained in any one discipline. I know I personally hop from new hobby to new hobby and become bored with things once I feel I have enough skill.
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
"Having just finished my first batch of home-brew beer, I've been thinking about my attraction to 'lost arts'
Drinking a skinful of beer will put these thoughts in your head. I usually solve all the worlds problems after a few. Can never seem to remember the solutions the next day though
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
I've been hacking over 30 years. I also brew beer, distill whisky, hunt, grow food, etc. These are definitely all the same expression: to know how things work.
-- Rich
Free your mind and your Ass will follow -- George Clinton
Just read k5.
They seem to have it figured out...
They like to get back to the primative.
Word...I am starting gardening. It's a wonderful artform, and useful too. If things keep going the way they are, the only food I will be able to get, or trust will be that which I grow myself.
Moron discovers 'hobbies' - film at 11, coming to
a slashdot near You!
We're all preparing for Y2038.
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
for e.g. a google query might look something like this:
"how to fix a flat tire"
I dont need to buy books for this.
Consensus is good, but informed dictatorship is better
No, it's not.
Next?
The advantage of chain mail is that its very difficult to spam.
Don't go to a brothel if you want to buy broth
The survivalism wing of libertarianism calls for a better understanding of basics like soap making.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Because for example in the modern world i would consider being 100% honest - an art. And i don't think this can be linked to hacking in any way.
The skills are not lost. They are well documented. They are unnecessary. You sound like you are pining for the "good ole days". Give me a break.
"Lost" implies that they need to be "found" for some compelling reason. They have been supplanted with skills necessary for the modern world, such as computing, engineering, math, making $100 million movies, watching TV, surfing pr0n, and building space shuttles.
Really, though, chill out. Go out and pick up a six pack of Bud and some Dove. Nobody's first batch of home brew ever turns out good anyway.
Just remember where the Unabomber went with this line of thinking...
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
Hacking is just like being the One. No one can tell you you're hacking, you just do it.
Daniel
Carpe Diem
Slashdot staff taking some time out to seek the lost art of a decent Slashdot article?
Imagine you lived in stone age - or simply there were no computers or power supply to run them?
All those people with MCSE/CCNA/etc and Computer Information Systems degrees.. end up being useless.. 'teh sucks' - nobodies. Unless of course they took Calculus and lot of other engineering courses and posess knowledge important to advance the technology forward, not just be a servant of the society, doing LAN administration or running UNIX - the kind of 'clerical' work in computers.
Wake up! ALl your nerds not doing anything!! you just learning simple things - unix administration? firewalls? geez you created the problem. You created the need for IT departments and for IPSecs and for so many things - because of you dumb packet kiddies we are stuck here today from 1980s not having a single advancement in computers except that those from 80's packed the transistors, expanded the amount of memory and simply 'improved' the technology.. But the real 'geeks' are the engineers, professors - those 'nerds' who are advancing the field through their research and experiments, while all those 'unix geek hax0r l33t bizniatchees y000' are nothing but computer operators.
Back to the topic : expand your horizons, folks!
Engineers love to tinker, find out how it all works, rip it apart and put it back together. Whether it's mechanical, chemical, or physical we want to understand. The only expression of the Renaissance Man left...
Isn't it obvious? Hacking is an expression of our inner need. And the inner need we are expressing is for Knowledge, pure and simple. The people who hack, today, are the people who would have been working on their cars 30 years ago. :)
I have a batch of Irish Ale in the carboy right now. A couple of nights ago I built my own force carbonator, pet bottles, some brass fittings and
a bicycle emergency CO2 inflator. Now sure I could have went out and bought the stuff to force carbonate my beer, but what kind of hack value is in that. True hackers hack everything not just code. Now back to my java project....
Got Code?
Yes I would consider that part of the hacking life style . Trying to understand everything around you , maybe even doing it your self is part of the "life style" . Most hackers I know (traditional use) are very keen with not only computers and electronics , but chemistry (read explosives) , metalworking , and a few are interested in nature (they even go out while the "day star" is still outside). The hacking life style is really one about knowledge and understanding so any activity/tool (reasonable priced of course) you can expect a hacker to have at least a passing interest in (and some times more so than one) . That being said , is this worthy of a slashdot article?
Just gay
I can't stand not to know how to do something, AC breaks in car, buy a book and some tools. So far I've done woodworking (mdf rules) pluming, drywall, sprinklers, tile. Welding is next...
Yes, I think you're on to something there. Not only do I brew beer, but we also sell homebrew supplies in my hardware store. My informal observations of the customers who shop for home brew supplies leads me to the conclusion that most hombrewers are geeks (That's a compliment!).
:-)
Getting back to my subject, I've also discovered that my passion for pinball (started at MIT in 1977) is shared with numerous folks on the net and around the world, and there is definitely a connection between the lost art of pinball (face it, pinball is dying, especially electromechanical machines) and geeks. I own an old Faces EM pinball machine myself which I've been restoring to it's former glory, in between brewing batches of homebrew and playing Asheron's Call.
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
Am I this way? Of course. I love blending the old and the new, the modern with the retro. Hell, my ideal computer case design would be something that would look like it belongs in a victorian parlor. Geeks love the anachronism, because if something from the past Just Works, why not use it?
Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses
Yes. The men I know wants to be able to build a society from scratch all by himself. The women I know tends to depend on someone else being around to help do this. individual::community
-Ansel.
Jeep: Just Empty Every Pocket
G=C800:5
I started learning how my car works because all that "moving stuff" is elegant and complex. It's the figuring out part that gives me satisfaction.
I will never do metalsmithing, but Maxwell's demon may be my next experiment. Too wierd to be missed!
You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
There's a good explanation as to why I at least have books on all sorts of lost arts, as the story calls them: All the hobbies or skills mentioned are crafts. In other words, they require the mastery of various tools to accomplish a particular task. Sound familiar? The computer is potentially the ultimate tool, so what I'm doing when I'm hacking is improving my skill with a particular tool to get something done.
I'll also note here that at first I read the article as about Lost Arks and geekdom. What does Harrison Ford have to say about the relationship between those two things?
For me it is just an expression of curiosity. Of wanting to know "how does this thing work" or "how the hell do they make this".
Computers are (for me) the uber-want-to-know. They are just more complex than every other thing in your direct environment, so we are attracted to them (like a moth to a bulb, if you ask me).
Baking [bread] hardly qualifies as an esoteric exercise-- as an ex-butcher and baker, I can testify that both of these activities are doing just fine, thanks. People will be eating bread, making cheese, and tying knots for a long time.
Granted, most of these things which are now done by machine will probably be confined to niche/specialty industries, but they'll definitely survive as long as people are willing to pay a premium for a quality product.
The organization that regulates Parma prosciutto, for instance, is still getting their knickers twisted over import regulations, which bespeaks a healthy industry to me.
this an expression of 'hacking' outside of machinery/engineering?"
Nope, this is an utter waste of time. There are so many other useful skills that you could learn with your precious time. Why learn stuff that you will never use ?
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
Because few will dare to venture unto yonder worlds
Tolkien thought that the further you got away from the earth and your ability to live off of it, the more and more you lost your ability to be a creative person. And the less magic you were able to see in the world.
It is a loss of this self suffency which is going to cause the greatest problems in our society. Just think of much of our food today is preprocessed or transported from someplace else.
What happens when the whole system breaks down. (When was the last time a complex system like the ones we have today didn't break down).
I think it's our mentatility to think about these problems becuase we get to think about them every day when it comes to computer systems.
I suspose I could ramble on about the philosophy and religious implications about subcreation and why good subcreators worry about this, but I think that the skills, determination, dedication, and ego that it takes to be a good programmer/sys admin/hacker are the same skills which cause us to worry about some of the more basic things in real life.
Ted Tschopp
Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien
All forms of Art are open to subjective opinion. Geeks tend to think of how they setup and use there computer as artistic expression. It' only follows that we will try and hack beer and make our own. Yeah beer above 7% alcohol.
The essence of hacking is finding out how stuff works... It comes as no suprise that those things carry over to other aspects of life. But here comes the age old "chicken/egg" debate:
Does an interest in hacking come from an interest in how stuff works?
-or-
Does an interest in how stuff works come from an interest in hacking?
Meditate on that, suckers...
Be careful! Bears shouldn't consume large furry dogs.
I see them in the park with padded clothing and nerf swords or something. What's so sad is it's usually three quarters men, and they look like they're fighting for the few nasty-looking women there.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
How is that flamebait? It's about the lost art of cannibalism.
My goal is to be reasonably self-sufficient in the event that modern conveniences are lost. Far-fetched idea, but I definitely collect data, both in electronic and hard-copy form, as often as I can. So far the collection outweighs my reading by a lot, but it's there. It's also a humourous collection of information that I may never so much as glance at...but it's there. And much of it does interest me.
And yes, I realize the irony of collection digital forms of data in the event that conveniences (which I always assume means electricity among other things...at least in easily accessible forms) are removed.
I guess you could consider it related to hacking if one considers hackers to be just people who "thirst for knowledge." I know I rarely sit in one discipline for long and I want to know everything about anything. I don't consider that being a hacker, or part of a "hacker" nature though...I'm just nosy.
nothing to see here
...I think you're Tyler Durden.
After giving some thought to the issue, I think that the answer is quite simple: for the same reason why I go to FreshMeat to get the source code of the programs I use. I could download the binaries, but I don't; I prefer to go through the pain of ./configuring, making and make-installing, to say the least. In other words: I want to control the process of creation as much as possible. The same spirit of OpenSource which animates most geeks is present in each and every aspect of their lives, not only in computing.
Self-made-making and Open Source are all about the same: to keep control of our own lives.
Strength, balance, courage and reason. If you know what's this about, contact me!
I know five people who make their own beer and wine (not to mention the multitude of microbrewery brands that have popped up in recent years), and a good third of an aisle at my grocery store is ready to bake mixtures for those home bread machines. I have one myself because they make the perfect sized loaf for lonely single guys like me.
--- Ban humanity.
I guess, seeing all you running around with your laces untied, claiming it's a fashion choice.
Yes!
Of the 3 geeks we have at the office, we have a banjo maker and player, a beer brewer, a machinist with a lathe, a mill, and no CNC and another machinist with a lathe. We have a cabinetmaker. We have 2 skilled black and white photographers that do their own darkroom work, and one who collects minicomputers and 80's era broadcast televison cameras.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
... that the Amish are the 31337est hackers?
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
I do as much as I can myself. fixing the car, cooking from scratch, building a kite, etc. In the boy scouts I forged my own knife, caught my own rabbits to eat while on the trail, fetched and purified all my own water, built my own shelter each night, to list a few. Hacking is indeed a lifestyle and not one to be taken for granted. Think of how many pinks out there can't even fill up their gas tank, let alone work the tivo remote!!! It will pervade every aspect of your being and drive you to do things that most people will say you are stupid for bothering when you could just pay someone to do it with a guarantee. To paraphrase "Tommy Boy", I can shit in a box and guarantee it if it will make you happy. Doing things myself from scratch is what makes me happy. Maybe that's where I get my sense of personal responsibility too.
perl -e '$_="\007/4`\cp%2,".chr(127);s/./"\"\\c$&\""/gees
There's a series of books that have been out for a while that talk about all kinds of survival and basic skills like making yarn and shelter and making cheese, etc ...
Is the seeking of lost skills and arts a hacking analog? Well, I wouldn't say so. Hacking is about creating the means to an end oneself, independant of any official or sanctioned guidelines. Seeking lost skills and arts is simply undertaking a nostalgic quest, much like deciding to collect Christian Archie comics from 1973 or something. The process may involve some hacking, as "lost skills" no doubt have less than perfect handbooks for them... but there's nothing that necessarily makes it analogous to hacking.
:)
One is a method -- one is an interest. I can see people who are into hacking being interested in lost art/skill revival though...
"Having just finished my first batch of home-brew beer..."
Wow! You drank the whole batch?!!
We lost many wisdoms and we continue loosing them. AI in a big scale failed. Why? Software engineers don't want to work with knowledge: working with bytes is much simpler and mostly reflect the quality of American education. High order functions and high order logic is just too much for an average Joe-Programmer. The software industry rejected the wisdom. I am seeking to find lost wisdoms of software engineering.
In art, compare music of Bach, Mozart or Bethoven with modern noise. Why is it so bad now? Because musicians today do it for money and only for money. They are no different than 300 years ago drunk musicians in a port tavern. Personally, I think that music has finished on Jazz, on after-hours improvisation sessions. Without the wisdom the creativity has left the music. In old records, in new re-improvisations and in classic music performacs I am seeking for lost music wisdoms.
I can continue about painting, literature, movies, theatre, and, of course, about phylosophy. But you've got a point.
Would you classify it as a geekfullness? I don't think about that. All I want is to find the most I can and to pass the most I can to others, thus saving what I found from being lost finally (or reducing the chance of being finally lost).
Less is more !
If you want a how-to-book series, check out the Foxfire series.
You'll learn how to make traps, make black gunpowder, tan hides, hunt various critters, work metal, woodcraft, and other things I've never done that the books list.
The pictures of the old toilets used to get material for black gunpowder reminds one what you did in the 1900's. And how yoou REALLY don't want to stay there, just go for visits.
This may be different for other people, but my wife and I both agree that we want to do this for several reasons, the biggest one being that we have a child now, and entrusting him with the control of the microwave and television just isn't what I want to pass on to him. And I personally think the world is going to hell on a fast train, and in the next 40 years, we could see the downfall of the American society as we know it. I know it sounds a bit catastrophic, but it will happen, maybe soon, maybe not in my lifetime. And things like the skills that people seem to people striving for these days will be very valuable. Plus, it sure is damn cheap to grow and make your own food, rather than shopping all the time.
Then again, people could just be discovering the joy of creating something from nothing, kinda like hacking.
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
Congrats on the homebrewed beer ... I've been homebrewing for about 2 years now and I find it to be a very rewarding hobby if you know what I mean ;)
... I doubt that the skills you mention will ever be "lost". Just like how people today still fiddle around with trebuchets and other cool ancient items, I think there will always be people that churn butter for historical clarity.
... kinda like how very few people still fashion arrowheads out of volcanic glass ... we simply don't have to. We have supermarkets in which to hunt already killed animals... the days of going to the forest to go shopping are long over.
Just my thoughts on the subject
Tasks such as making soap, etc. really aren't necessities of our lives any more. Skills have a way of exiting society when they aren't needed for survival any longer
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
I've been thinking for a while of trying to do organic synthesis using primitive reagents.
Jargon File entry: http://www.hack.gr/jargon/html/sections/a-portrait -of-j-random-hacker.html
I find most of the people I know enjoy creating/doing things the 'old way'. I make my own bread, most of my meals are things that I've made, and I have a tendency to do things the 'manual' way when ever possible (i.e. use a broom unstead of a vacuum cleaner, or do a project myself and not call someone to do it).
I think its an extention of wanting to know how things work/are done, rather then just knowing which buttons to push. Most of the folks I know perfer doing 'hands on' things. Then there a sense of satisfaction with doing things by your own hand that can't be beat. I'm proud of what I create/make, and it makes the crap that I deal with that much easier to handle. Are you proud of a clever script/piece of code you wrote? I'm proud of being able to feed my family well.
Health and longevity; immortality; heavenly ascension - these are probably some of the oldest "hacks" there are... there has been lots of freshly translated material coming out of China in the past few decades, and maybe it's a rare thing to like computers and Taoism or Zen, but I think there is definitely a connection. I saw Red Hat's website advertising "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" as a good "summer read" - that was last year, I think.
Maybe it's about doing things which on the surface appear to be difficult because they are unfamiliar, but are actually easier to do once you understand them. Things that encourage you to reevaluate the way you look at things.
Learning how to set up and administer a Linux system, building it from parts, the user gains a broader view of what a computer is and what it can be used for. Using a proprietary OS, the user believes the functionality of the computer to be limited by the size of his or her bank account.
Learning how to stay healthy without interference from the religion of modern medicine also expands your horizons; you realize how degenerative disease and unnecessary surgery can be prevented by a healthy dose of skepticism combined making intelligent choices about what you eat and how you exercise.
And then you realize that it's not the CPU, or the amount of RAM, but the quality of the keyboard, and the trackball that can keep you from getting carpal tunnel. It's so hard to understand how an organization can expect 70 wpm, yet still use those $5 keyboards they get with the computers they order. $700 for a keyboard? Are you out of your mind? Hey, if that keeps me away from disability, if that keeps me away from a judge telling me that I HAVE to have surgery to keep recieving disability, hey... no problem. A good keyboard, chair, and desk with an adjustable keyboard tray can keep you employed, healthy and away from the Carpal Tunnel.
Geeks are probably into this kind of stuff, but then again geeks are probably not into this kind of stuff, because "geeks" is just a word, and fails to completely describe the reality of the situation...
yeah, I'm guilty as charged!
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
Actually I've been thinking about this and talking about this for some time.
We now live in a society where we are so removed from the things that we are so close to;
take a look around - look at the things that you take for granted most. Paper, pens, any sort of utensil - and now more and more - electronic devices that we rely on to get stuff done.
The modern person is totally removed from the process of creating the things that make him and his life modern. We have no idea how a pen is made - or for many - even how the food we live on is grown, processed and cooked.
We live in a world of things where we dont understand the way they are made, but we do understand their reason for existing (all matrix references aside).
I too have a very strong desire to know how to make things. Leather work, carving, joinery, and most importantly martial arts.
It is so important to me (martial arts) to know how the body works and what I can do with my abilities and body.
time to go home...
Perhaps I am missing something, but how exactly are "yogurt and cheese" skills? Or are you talking about the Schwartz?
- Why am I so fascinated by the old computers of generations gone by?
- Why are those old mainframes that can do less than a PDA so fascinating?
- Why would I rather save up money to buy a personally crafted writing table as opposed to a $50.00 one made out of particle board by machine?
- What is so "magical" about UNIX-like operating systems?
- Why is it fun to spend a weekend hiking in the desert, where there is no running water, freezing your butt off, sleeping in a tent with all kinds of weird things crawling on you?
- Why is some really complex source code, script, configuration file, etc. so interesting?
- Why does code, highly optimized beyond readability (especially assembly) have a "feel" to it?
- Why is some PDP-11 with tape for storage so intriguing?
- What is so interesting about Lord of the Rings?
- Why is it so much fun to play games with words, making up double-meaning phrases and the like?
The answer is a bit complex.First of all, things that are crafted together by skilled hands have an intrinsic value that doesn't exist in mass-marketed consumer products designed for an excessively consuming society. It all ties together. The way yogurt is made, the way beer is brewed, the way a unique muscle car is built, the way a particularly crafty piece of code is written (whether new or old), the way an oak writing desk is made, the way a 25 year old 4-bit computer can multiply 16-bit integers faster than the newest Pentium 4's, the way the computer on Voyager II can be reconfigured from a million billion miles away without crashing, the way your personally hacked Linux kernel does something nobody else has thought of... it all happens because of craftsmanship. Yeah, those old mainframes probably crashed more often than Windows does today, but there is some kind of value (for which I cannot find a word) that exists in things made by the truly skilled... by the wizards, the gurus, the master craftsmen.
Secondly, there is something in the "hacker culture" (see the Jargon file) that draws people like us to the values that I'm describing in the paragraph above. It doesn't matter what your other hobbies are, whether they involve nature, ham radio, literature, etc. There is something about freedom, quality, beauty (even if it isn't physical beauty), correctness, practicality, craftiness, challenge... It's a way of thinking that people outside the hacker community have apparently forgotten.
I think that these esoteric skills/arts are attractive to geeks because we tend to be the "do-it-yourself" type. e.g. rather than use the "pre-fab" MS Windows, we "rolled our own" OS.
Personally I'm very into metalworking (specifically welding and have an interest in processes like forging). I also am into brewing my own beer. I'm a big VW/Audi/Porsche nut as well and consider myself a rather accomplished mechanic working on these makes as a hobby.
I feel just as comfortable compiling my own kernel as I do changing a clutch disc or brewing an ale.
Hurray for geekdom!
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
I'm guessing that we just find "American Idol" mund-numbingly boring. I just finished a Hefe-weizen. I also enjoy woodworking and astronomy and have assembled two MAME cabinets. I enjoy reading and cooking as well. It's amazing what gets done when you're not watching the tube.
(Please feel free to reply with obligatory link to The Onion)
The problem with the question is that I see the same behavior in non-nerds all the time. This being Slashdot we hold it up as a wonderful quality of "us" that makes us better than everyone else, but I think it's just a normal thing.
Probably we're just bored. We need lives.
either that or i wouldn't want to smell the stick
I'd have to say that I greatly agree to that. I have tons of books laying around on that sort of stuff. I study a lot about "lost" religions and systems of belief as well. I'm more or less a practicing Wiccan priest (very rare for a hacker, I suppose), and I kn ow enough about the medievil era I could probably live there.
I think another thing that seems to be common among our type is the drive to create artwork. I draw and paint a lot. Is anyone else afflicted by this urge?
Hey, there are a lot of golf "hacks" out there, too. Knowing how stuff works is great fun. I took apart a watch as a kid. I started on the enigma machine known as an Atari 400. Mastery is always a rush. Go ask the literature hacks, auto hacks and any other hobbyist. Know a bit of everything and become the Uber Geek.
Duck -> Goose.
WTF was I thinking?!
Climbers have always customised or made their own gear. Perhaps because if it breaks they have to fix it while being snowed on and hanging next to a vertical cliff face. Or perhaps they are happy with taking risks.
I don't know, as far as the gear that keeps me alive goes,(Eg harnesses and boots) I'm personally happy with getting OTS gear and breaking it in until it fits me. Cutting, stretching, or otherwise structurally altering it is only something that I'd pay somebody else to do, so there's somebody else's eyes on the job to tell me if my idea is suicide.
On the other hand those modified zipper pulls are damn handy.
Once homebrewing became legal again (which happened in the 80s, if I remember correctly), the homebrew industry started to regain strength. At this point, I wouldn't say that brewing is by any means a lost art...I've brewed hundreds of gallons at this point. The stuff is like zucchini...if you produce it, you produce a LOT of it...and let me tell you, nothing moves your data mining requests to the front of the line faster than giving the DBAs lots of homebrew! :)
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
Dunno if that's true, but it does seem to make sense. I just remembered it when I saw this article.
Out of all the "geeks" I know, only a handful are interested in these things. From the people I have known, it is mainly people with strong political beliefs that prefer the lifestyle of DIY.
Nike pays kids 10 cents an hour to make shoes? Screw them, I'm going to make shoes myself and not give money to a large corporation whose actions go against my political beliefs.
And about the beer brewing. How often do you drink Budweiser? I never will pay for that beer, I'd much rather support micro breweries. And this is also another reason why I brew my own beer as well, to give me a choice on what kind of beer I want, yet I still support the smaller companies and not the large ones.
Actually, you could argue that the "Renaissance Men/Women" never really went away, just changed with the times, to eventually become "hackers" in the best sense of the word, whether you're hacking computers or cells or concertos. Their visibility has varied over the past 400 years, but they've always been there, working beneath the surface. :)
That's my thesis, and I'm sticking to it.
If you live in Wisconsin like I do, brewing your own beer is not a lost art it is required.
Got Code?
there are so many skills 'lost' in the modern 'american' lifestyle
I have lived in Belgium and Japan about as long as I have been in the States and I can assure you that the people there are no more knowledgeable about any of those skills you list than Americans are. In fact, there is a much greater outdoor lifestyle (esp. compared to Japan) in the States.
So, I decided to go back to basics. I had an old bulk film loader around that I'd never used, so I dusted it off, got myself a 100ft reel of Ilford FP4+ black and white film (AUD $60), and a bunch of reloadable film cannisters (AUD $1.50 each). That gives me enough film for about twenty 36-exposure rolls, which would cost me over AUD $10 each at retail prices. Plus I if I only need a few shots, I can load less film into the cannisters without needing to waste half a roll, or wait till I used it up.
I picked up a darkroom starter kit for AUD$100 which included all the basic hardware to get me started, except for an enlarger (which I scrounged off a friend), safelight (bought, about AUD$13 for a magic light bulb), and some extra chemical mixing bits (jugs, etc). I built myself (with some assistance from the father-in-law-to-be) a collapsable bench which allows me to turn our poky little bathroom/laundry into a darkroom (it fits quite nicely over the washing machine and toilet), and bought some chemicals and paper (again, Ilford).
I can now load my own film, develop it in my own house in about 10 minutes, monkey with the developing (push/pull) if I want, make my own prints up to 8*10", cropped how I want, with the contrast how I want it, dodged and burned how I want (yes, dodging and burning did exist before Adobe Photoshop). It's not always fun. Acutally, the fun factor wore off after 24 hours, but its starting to creep back in. Its long, tiring, painstaking work. There's no undo button - if you screw it up, bin it and try again. It teaches you to be methodical, precise, but also lets you experiment to "see what happens".
It's also taught me that I'm not as good a photographer as I thought I was. Looking back at my previous photographic efforts I've realised that the majority of them were more about the colour than the composition, and without the colour, they just looked crappy... But now that I know this, I'm getting better. Playing with black and white in the darkroom can be a very sadisfying experience, you get to create something with your own two hands from start to end. No computer-assisted magic, just light, glass, and silver. If this posting sounds interesting to you, you should probably try it. If you get hooked, you can also do color processing in a home darkroom, but its a lot more involved.
Banner: Are you the beer baron?
Comic Book Guy: Yes, but only by night. By day, I'm a mild-mannered reporter for a major Metropolitan newspaper.
Banner: Don't crack wise with me, tubby!
Comic Book Guy:Tubby? Oh yes, tubby.
you would know what is fat face looks like...
you bathed together in the same luke-warm bathtub.
90% of skills come from the doing!
Something that couch potatoes do not comprehend.
BTW your first home brew, should if you study, will kick ass out of any shitmyster BUD that is made with rice. Most couch spuds can't tell the difference so that is why BUD seems so great.
Get off your ass study and do.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
i'd like to see the art of making of absinthe return. someone care to brew me up a batch?
...insofar as hacking is optimization and pushing the envelope. What you're arriving at is not necessarily restricted to the "lost" aspect. Rather, it seems to be linked to the "art" aspect, in the sense of a tradition of high-craftsmanship being transmitted traditionally, and the body of knowledge continously being evolved by a line of masters... It's the same in any "art" or in any science sufficiently elevated, or in any body of knowledge traditionally stored and transmitted and protected. Generally, the first contact with the body of knowledge mostly consists of the usual knowledge items rehashed by the masses. But dwell within the community of apprentices to masters and search, and you soon find higher knowledge, that the masses do not know about. Go on, and soon the purest and highest items are even unknown by the adherents of the community. And often, since there's an inherent geometrical law that describes knowledge and its transmission, the masses persecute those with the inner knowledge (inner because closer to the source). The whole process of learning an art and going to the highest knowledge possible is analogous to understanding nature, and by so doing, getting to know the consciusness of The Ultimate Hacker, whose Computer is the Universe. It's called the Uni_verse, because a single command brought forth everything else. Regards, Yash.
Hm, I wonder how medieval style chain mail would look like?
And yes, I do know that we are really talking about body armor.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
As I read this article I looked up to one of my bookcases and spotted titles on flintknapping (how's that for old skills?), Native American medicinal plants and crafts, medieval machinery, and Tom Brown's nature skills books. I'm also a computing professional so maybe there is something to his point.
I'd be interested in recommendations by the author or anyone else on good books on metalworking and other similar "lost" craft skills.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I think hacking and pursuit of lost skills go hand in hand. After all, they're both (to me anyway,) about the pursuit of knowledge, preferrably handy knowledge.
:D
Personally, I know some obscure things like miscellaneous bladesmithing info concerning metallurgy and blade geometry, soldering techniques, Japanese language, and operation/maintenance/repair info for a wide range of contemporary firearms (fairly obscure knowledge up here in Canada.)
It's all about better living through superior knowledge. There are so many things people don't bother to learn nowadays that are just HANDY at times. Hacking is just a modern day manifestation of "tinkering" with things to learn how they work, often to repair them. The only real difference is the transition from physical to virtual.
Brewing beer is an excuse to make your apartment smell horrible, making soap is an excuse to see how quickly various household items dissolve when exposed to lye, and metalsmithing is an excuse to pretend that you're Sauron.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Walden
(by Henry David Thoreau)
---- The real Slashdot is still here. You just have to browse at -1 to read the comments.
"My dad stopped when he realized that he had enough to last the rest of his life (it is quite hard unlike store-bought and each bar lasts quite a while)."
That would be in part, because you didn't whip air into it. The ingredients are the other part.
Jeez, somebody (as in, the slashdot "editor") needs to do a little journalism training. Headlines should quickly and CLEARLY convey the gist of the article and make the reader immediately want to read the article. This is a BAD headline:
I had to read that over and over again to figure out what the hell it meant.
Attempt #1:
No, that doesn't make any sense. Let's try reading it again.
On the next pass, my eye catches "Hacking Analog", which must mean this is an article about breaking into analog computers. No that doesn't make sense either. I think Analog is some kind of science fiction periodical. Could they be hacking the magazine's web site or something? No why would they need all the extra verbage, it would just be Hacking Analog's Website? in that case.
*sigh* So many milliseconds have passed. Let's try again. "Is the Seeking" .. that could be some weird science fiction thing .. "The Shining", "The Awakening", "The Seeking" .. yes definitely science fiction, especially since my brain is still firing synapses in that general direction. So:
Damnit, "of Lost Skills" doesn't follow a noun. Well I guess it could ("book of lost skills") .. but maybe not a gerund ("walking of lost skills" No... wait "losing of lost skills" that works..) Argh, let's just scratch that train of thought and maybe we can come back to it later.
Start over carefully. "Is the seeking of lost skills, arts a hacking analog?" ... wait, mind the slash! Okay, got it, the slash applies only to the two words around it, not the two phrases. Check. Replace it with "or"..
What the HELL is a hacking analog? OH WAIT A MINUTE! Mr. Smarty Pants means "analogous to hacking". And NOT computer "cracking", but old-skool "hacking". Whew.
Look at the kind of "wooly fog" people are taught in school: "the seeking of" You write shit like that when you're padding your paper out to 3 pages.
So the point he's trying to get across is:
Well a little long for a headline, maybe we should jazz it up enough to get the reader interested, but still keep it short:
See, that's better.. kinda funny, gets your attention, is easily understood, and leaves the reader wanting more .. once he starts reading he'll figure out what the article is about.
I bet someone who actually gets PAID TO DO THIS could come up with an even better title!
And just for the record, yeah the same thing that drives my computer play makes me want to learn about cooking, woodworking, and the proper way to make love to a beautiful woman. Unfortunately I don't get to do ALL those things all the time.. but as soon as I pick up a few boards from Home Depot I'll be set. :-)
(No, not BROADS, BOARDS, sheesh)
... printed by Anchor Books, edited by Eliot Wigginton. These are an extraordinary compilation of folk knowledge from rural American mountain people. I only have volumes 1 through 6. The wild plant food sections are incredible. Some of the information presented is anecdotal, and there's quite a bit of very quaintly written folklore, but there are also many useful tutorials of "simple" skills like cider making, cabin building, canning, tanning hides, spinning yarn, churning butter, weaving cloth, and metalworking.
Get off my virtual lawn, you damned virtual kids!
My personal thing is wood fired pottery kilns. I recently built an anagama kiln - firing lasts 5 days in my kiln and uses about 4 cords of wood. Cool thing was, I hooked up an old computer to some digital multimeters which were in turn hooked up to some thermocouples. Although my temperature reading was in milivolts, that was fine because I'm only interested in how the temperature is changing, not what the thermocouples read (they are notoriously inacurate anyway). The computer came into play so I could watch the temperature graph. It was like playing nintendo with fire.
BTW, these kilns are a pyromaniac's dream come true. Mine isn't this huge.
Oh, and my computer was a pentium 133 I picked up for free. Seems the fitting box for a 1000 yo style of kiln. And the coolest part, I have the only english language translation of a book describing how to build these (I know it is so cause my girlfriend and I spent 4 months working on it - she translating and me turning Japanese-English into readable English).
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
how about the original Foxfire book. I are you interested in the social structure and culture that these skills come from or do you want the most efficient methods? do you want the History or the Science of these skills?
Either way I'd stay out of the 'how to make a still' chapter unless you want very urban ATF breaking up your mash bucket and stoving in your cooker. Ah the good old days of moonshine and salting deer. Those guys might stand a chance against the SCA camp folks... maybe.
"If I wanted your input on my pet project, I'd stick my hand up your ass and use you like a sock-puppet." - Muse
here are so many skills 'lost' in the modern 'american' lifestyle... but I find my fellows tend to have books on these subjects lying around, too
Y'know, brewing a single batch of beer doesn't make you a skilled brewer. Playing with something or reading about it isn't the same as doing it, even if it's boring, until you're good at it. I'm not dissing your interest in beermaking or tinsmithing or whatever, only reacting to the quotes around 'lost' and despairing for a nation of dilettantes and poetasters who don't even understand the scope of their own ignorance about what "craft" really means.
Sorry...middle age coming on...
- metalsmithing - I know at least two smiths. It's a far cry from the "one in every village" setup of a century ago, but it's by no means "lost".
- sewing - your mother let you leave the house without knowing how to sew? No, I don't mean darn socks and hem pants; I mean sew, as in "assemble an article of clothing from fabric and thread". No? Go home, posthaste, and tell her she's a bad mother.
- baking bread - I bake bread all the time. I don't keep track, but it's probably a 50/50 split between machine bread an "real" bread. Give it a try, instructions are available.
- making soap - I know two people that make their own soap. It isn't hard.
- knot tying - *lots* of people can tie knots. Talk to a sailor, or a fisherman, or a 13 year old Boy Scout.
- brewing beer - I'm pretty sure that you can buy beermaking supplies at Walmart now.
- woodcarving - There's a whole community of them out there, you just need to look.
- yogurt and cheese - drive up to Vermont (or, I imagine, Wisconsin) sometime. There are people up there making cheese - *great* cheese - in their garages.
I'm not going to bother to look for you, but I imagine that there's a newsgroup for each and every one of these subjects. Christ, you can't even geek right.Of course, if you're just looking to pick up dirt hippies, this should be all you need.
How about this: Rather than blathering about learning "lost arts", take a few months to expand your frame of reference just slightly. You'll realize that most of the things that you think are "lost", aren't.
--
(Score: 5, Condescending)
The amazing thing about it all is that in developed world, practicioners of the 'lost arts' make pretty decent money, whilst the artesans in the developing world make very little.
:)
In Chile one can buy a 4 foot high handmade, hand painted earthernware flowerpot for all of 50 bucks. That same flowerpot in the US would probably cost (if you could find it), 300 dollars or more; all this because the artesan is practicing a 'lost art'.
Out in the country down here you can still find a 'smith' and a 'cooper'.
Knot tying is not so big here, but ohhh the cheese
but the next time someone blows up part of Manhattan and there's no power or basic services for weeks, these skills could come in really handy. The farther infrastructure is built up, the further it has to fall when infrastructure below it is suddenly pulled out from underneath. It would be wise to somehow actively maintain these older skills in part of society so that the skill is not lost if someone blows up the International Soap Makers' Convention. =) While the Internet is a sort of insurance against the loss of knowledge it is not a complete guarantee since there can be a big difference between knowledge and how to apply the tricks of the trade.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
that is why American beer is not world renowned like belgium beer.
There's nothing that annoys me quite like some hippie who's all excited about making soap or carving wood or brewing beer.
A: The beer is never good. Anyone who finds homebrew appealing is under the influence of their rotten concoction.
B: There's nothing special or magical or empowering about knowing how to work with raw materials using old-fashioned tools and techniques. It's not "the way it's meant to be done" just because it's the way people did it 200 years ago.
C: People need their hobbies, no doubt. And I do plenty of useless things to waste time. But I don't go around smugly pretending that if only people knew some obscure knot or were able to churn butter, they'd be worthwhile people. I don't float around offering to enlighten people to the ways of doing things they don't care to do using methods they don't care to learn. And I don't brush them off when they respond with disinterest, as if some essential fault of theirs is preventing them from seeing the one true way to do whatever.
D: There's nothing lost about any of this shit, because people keep going on about it as if it is. I love the irony in this. ALERT: You didn't 'rediscover' anything just because you took an unread book from your neighbor. It's not like you're digging up the ruins of an ancient city that shows evidence of having traveled between galaxies or something. You're putting knives into wood for chrissake.
E: Any notion of "art" is imbued in the present-day. Remember, people did most of that stuff so they could survive. It was a chore! In 200 years, are people going to wax nostalgic for the Lost Art of Commuting? The Lost Art of Plumbing Toilets?
Give me a break. Show me some skills that can earn you some money and pay the fucking rent. Your whittling and hemp necklaces aren't covering your deadbeat ass.
You're trying to pull a "John Katz" type association, ala Columbine: "Geeks are oppressed. These kids were oppressed. Thus, these guys were oppressed geeks, like we are, and we must sympathize and condone what they did." No.
Hacking is hacking - whether it's with computers, cars, or some other technical device. You're making things work better, improving on them.
Learning "lost arts" of the likes of brewing, breadmaking, metalwork, etc. are not hacking. Doing so is simply seeking out knowledge. It is the self-enlightenment of the mind. It is the original concept of 'education' (as stated by the Greeks) fullfilled. Hacking might fall into this as a subset, but "hacking = learning" is a crock of katzism: an intellectual and logical farce.
(Thank the Maker he's not around anymore, btw)
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I do agree with you that intelligent and curious people tend to research a breadth of subjects like this. I'm a bit curious about how long geeks keep their hobbies. I know that I find myself switching from one to the next every few years. I know other geeks who are the same way, and we differ a great deal from hobbyists who have been at whatever it is they do for many decades.
I have been into blacksmithing and then riflery and then publishing and then electronics and then pyrotechnics and then making liquors/bartending and now am into cooking. Anyone have suggestions on what to do next?
of is "The Forgotten Arts and Crafts" by John Semour. Amazon.com has it and lets you look at lots of it online. Check it out.
It's full of how to do "outdated" arts like thatching a house, making fences with hand built tools and materials gathered in the forest, and blacksmithing, in addition to household type crafts such as making cream and butter and soap. I bought it a couple months ago after finding an enormously positive review on the net somewhere. It is full of enough diagrams to satisfy the average geek.
As for why seeking lost skills is an attraction to geeks, I think it comes down to problem solving. Problem solving is a trait universally desirable in geeks. It doesn't matter if the problem is how to get your program to run in less than x seconds or how to get information from here to there quickly over the phone system or how to make your own yogurt. It's all problem solving.
Books like this appeal to geeks because they open a new (old) world of problems and give elegant solutions to them. The solutions are time-tested and have come from the collective mind of thousands and thousands of clever people. It is a natural geek thing to do to admire their elegant solutions to their problems.
There's also a huge feeling of escape from the headaches of technology when you imagine life without computers, electricity, etc. I'm not sure about all of geekdom, but I enjoy understanding and imagining a technologically simple life that doesn't include depending on a keyboard and screen for a livelihood.
"Spoken like a true geek virgin. My inner need is for something a lot more tangible, soft, feminine and preferably with large breasts."
Then you wake up screaming from your homebrew induced hangover when you realize you're in bed with a heavy guy with large breasts, and soft skin.
"metalsmithing, sewing, baking bread, making soap, knot tying, brewing beer, woodcarving, yogurt and cheese.. there are so many skills 'lost' in the modern 'american' lifestyle..."
You may need those skills before you know it. I think it was former CIA director Richard Helms who is said to have had a stone axe in a frame behind his desk. The caption underneath said simply, "The Weapon of the Future".
Insert witty sig here.
This isn't so much of a "hacking analog" as just plain "hacking," but repairing and programming ancient computers qualifies as a "lost art," I think...
I recently got a PDP-8/E (circa early-mid 1970s). How many people these days know how to program a system in octal using only the front panel switches and indicator lights, hand assembling code on the fly? It's a real thrill for me to do this kind of thing, even if the end result just makes the accumulator lights strobe like the front of Kitt from "Knight Rider."
I brew beer too (although not as much lately).
Lately my obsession is "hacking" my house. Home improvement. Plumbing, electrical, masonry, etc. Right now I'm building a workshop so I'll have a place to put all my woodworking stuff.
I love it, and it's a hobby that saves me money. I recently bought a gas range to replace our old electrical for my wife. I humoured her on the installation (which consisted of running an entire 8 feet of gas pipe and one little electrical circut), because she didn't want me "messing with gas" -- right up until we got three quotes and none were less than $350. I did it myself for $30-$40 in supplies and three hours work.
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
I think that everyone posting here doesnt really get the idea of what this guy is saying. He doesnt want to live meidevaly (wee), he wants to build all his own stuff, like I want to. When you work at a manufacturing plant for a while you realize that most things are made out of many simple and easy to make parts. it just takes time to make them. I would kill for a CNC mill because i could probably make anything i could ever want. Like, i could build a phone, and then use a CNC mill to mill out a case and stuff and BOOM, got my own phone, in my own style. Microelectronics has really taken away from people because alls you see is the case and if you do dare to open it everything is too small too complex to understand for most people. But i think if I lived in the woods for a couple years i could easy forge metal things and simple machines.
--Anything is possible if you have the time
really it all just means you're gay.
i think it is a personality trait of the 'geek', and the hacker more specifically, to be interested in broadening their knowledge base. this is seen from people who run different OS's on one rig to people who own all sorts of 'How-to' books. Hackers are no longer cyber, they're actual.
What you really need to do is figure out how to use a 455 cubic inch 8 cylinder high power engine to flocculate your wort....
668: Neighbour of the Beast
It should be "Is hacking a 'Lost Skills/Arts' Analogy?"
All those guys proposed that we all live in urban city surroundings, stacked up like the Borg in cramped multi-story apartments.
When I was younger, I was a total science/technology/computers/etc. nut (ie, fellow nerdling). As I've grown older and now spend most of my day working either at a computer or at the bench in the lab at work I'm less likely to futz around with chemicals at home or mess around on my computer. Why would I want to do those things when I spend 50-70 hours a week doing something similar at work? Instead I've started reading more and more history (especially ancient), philosophy, humor, and nonfiction. Not so much popscience--too many errors in areas I'm familiar with to be enjoyable anymore. I've also taken up backpacking, hunting, and woodworking. Although that last one remains linked to work--my roomate and I swipe pallets from work and recycle the lumber into bookcases and tables and such. I'd love to take up metalworking or auto repair but the community college courses are too spendy for this poor grad student.
I know I'm not alone in my nontechnical or at least nonHIGHtechnical pursuits; U. Oregon grad students seem to enjoy a lot more outdoorsy hobbies than I would have ever imagined "nerds" doing. It's not just here: I've got a friend working at Microsoft and he says he rarely uses his home computer anymore and says its similar with a number of his coworkers--they'd rather grab a pack and go camping.
Besides just needing a balance between technology and simplicity hobbies are pretty good ways at meeting people you wouldn't normally encounter. Especially women. Think about this: which is sexier, the nerd who is a wizard programmer and their hobbies include programming and playing computer games or the nerd who's a wizard programmer and spends their weekends restoring a 54 Ford pickup or hiking or making pottery?
I'd like to add to your points that knowing to make things (even ordinary things like cheese) is liberating in a way. Even if you don't follow through, being able to make something frees you from being a passive consumer having to buy only those products industries deem worth selling. Making something also installs in it a feeling of personal energy (no reference to the One Ring intended), something absent from just grabbing a thing off a shelf.
Just like the parent comment, I too have many years of studying the martial arts (in fact I'm nursing sore ribs right now). The countless hours spent mastering archaic weapons is similar to the study of lost craft skills. I wonder if this is another common thread?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
hmmm... methinks we have a newbie. or a troll.
Reading this, I took a stroll down ye olde Memory Lane...
As a young boyscout, I specialised in knots, firemaking and knifethrowing (the latter did not earn me a merit badge, but I was only 9...), and that made me think.
I do not consider myself a hacker, as I have never been given that distinction by my peers (whomever they might be), as I usually divert my interest to other areas, when I, myself, believe, that I have grasped the fundamentals of the issue, I have been pursuing knowledge about.
I would regard the characteristic of curiosity, regardless of popular opinion of the immediate subject, very important to label someone as a hacker, but I also believe, that a hacker should have the perseverance to explore every facet (accessible) of the chosen subject, in order to earn the label "hacker".
I, myself, have smithyed, carved, explored firemaking, knottying, ASP (ugh), Java and brewing of mead (to name a few), but I have never _really_ explored the finer details of any of those, and thus, I decline hackerdom.
I may be far off the popular definition of the term, but if so, please respond correctingly!
"The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Hack Hack, v. t. imp. & p. p. Hacked; p. pr. & vb. n.
Hacking. OE. hakken; akin to D. hakken, G. hacken, Dan.
hakke, Sw. hacka, and perh. to E. hew. Cf. Hew to cut,
Haggle.
1. To cut irregulary, without skill or definite purpose; to
notch; to mangle by repeated strokes of a cutting
instrument; as, to hack a post.
My sword hacked like a handsaw. --Shak.
2. Fig.: To mangle in speaking. --Shak.
mmmmm, duck...
Quoting from here.
I'm curious about wether or not the C/C++ time() funcion will mess up things for me in AD2038.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
Or you wake up screaming from your homebrew induced hangover when you realize you _are_ a heavy guy with large breasts, and soft skin.
what are you talking about james? there is nothing wrong with webula.net ! Look at the matrix site they host fuckin moron: matrix reloaded
A quote I've always liked:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects." -- Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
If you don't nod in acknowledgement, you're likely one of the folks I know who stare at me oddly whenever I describe how I like to spend my spare time.
We're smarter than the average (no false modesty here) and curiosity is one of those traits associated with a well exercised brain. We take pleasure in knowing how to do stuff. Drinking beer is good, but much better is knowing how to make your own suited to your taste. I race sailboats, a past time often compared to standing in a cold shower while throwing $100 dollar bills out the window, yet there always is something magical about making a boat go with only the wind and your smarts. Fundamentally, there is much joy to be found in doing something well.
Our lives are so overly-analytical we don't know where we come from or where we're going. The analytical approach (cutting things into smaller and smaller _separate_ pieces, building walls, barriers lines etc) is so pervasive it's in danger of damaging or even destroying society.
What's great about making things ourselves is that we are connected to those things in a world where connections (real ones not electronics illusions thereof) are more and more difficult to come by.
When we learn how to do things for ourselves rather than just buying things, we get a better sense of how things work and where they come from . I would like to see neighborhood butcher shops where locally-raised animals would be slaughtered on the premises. Killing our own meat (or seeing it done) would make some people vegetarian, and others would have more appreciation of the sacrifice other beings make for us. That's just one example of course.
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
"...but there's just something more authentic about banging on a piece of machinery that's older than my grandmother."
Not as much fun as they use to have with their iron horses.
Belgian beer is the *WORST* swill I have ever tasted. I have drunk beer all over Europe. Some is good, some is great. Belgian beer sucks.
Not to mention the fact that you said a *VERY* dirty word...
#1... most have hit on by saying that it goes along with the problem solving type of hobbies.
#2... I think has to deal with (and I could be wrong) most of these "weird" "lost arts" also has a finished product... kinda like spending the night typing a bunch of lines of code to get a program. I think it's the fact of creating things and figuring things out. I know that's why I like most of these types of things.
Hey man - Just cause you know lots of freaky deaky people, that doesn't mean that everyone else is gonna...
Downloading source code and running a few scripts to build it is more like buying a frozen pizza at the supermarket and sticking it in the oven when you get home. It teaches you nothing about how to make dough, sauce, etc.
Writing your own code = making dough, sauce, and cheese from scratch.
Downloading executables = Domino's
Downloading source = frozen pizza (a little fresher and hotter, but you're fooling yourself if you think you have much control over it)
...not that authorities would encourage you to try it. But it has much common with hacking - if you consider your brain a computer.
[Of course, I am talking about making your own russian-style home yogurt!]
I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
>Just cause you know lots of freaky deaky people,
>that doesn't mean that everyone else is gonna...
That's his point, Beavis. The fact that you do not know "freaky deaky people" does not mean that either freakiness or deakiness are "lost arts".
For me it is a matter of independence. It is nice to be able to say if the things I take for granted were suddenly not available in the event of nukes or asteroids that I would still be self sufficient.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
My theory is that geeks have more imagination than the average bear. They look at lines of programming but see not only the code, but also the manipulation of the screen. If you think about it, all a computer really is is a device for changing pixel colors on a screen. Geeks see how the pixels ought to look.
I could be wrong but I think this guy's been watching his The Matrix DVD a little too much.
Remember that bit when Neo's talking to Cypher aboard the ship? When Cypher says that he doesn't even see the code anymore, all he sees is blonde, brunette, etc? I just saw a glitch in the system, uh I mean, feeling of deja vu when I read that paragraph from his post.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Why do these sorts of discussion always seem more like self-congratulatory exercises? Like clockwork, people start posting thoughts of how deep and meaningful their lives are. Its amazing how quickly making beer or chopping wood becomes a mystical experience, thirst for knowledge, truth, freedom and the American Way! The rest of world just doesn't get it!
Its exactly this kind of self-important blathering that no healthy individual needs. It seems to me that many extremely bright and intelligent people are also emotionally stunted. Time and time again, I am reminded how important it is to be well-rounded, mostly by observing how many geeks sacrifice large parts of their lives for one obsession or another, justifying it with the same self-validating rhetoric we see here. All I see here are comments about how smart we are, how creative, how worthwhile our lives are. The only reason you would need a pep talk like this is if inside, you really didn't believe it yourself.
I've become convinced that the geek community is rife with emotionally-damaged and socially maladjusted people who hide behind their obsessions. Not everyone of course, if the shoe fits, but maybe this is something that we should be talking about rather than patting ourselves on the back.
"It's Dot Com!"
I've often thought that a person's value should be determined by how soon that person would be able to go to work and contribute if civilization had to start from scratch (stone age). Farmers, tool makers, carpenters, doctors, nurses, weavers, warriors, hookers and teachers would be examples of most valuable people. Pilots, truck drivers, manufacturing workers etc. would not go to work very quickly.
Bottom of the list would be TV personalities, sports figures, advice columnists, salesmen, lobbyists and lawyers. These folks wouldn't be back to work for a long time.
Maybe geeks like lost skills because they want a better spot on the list.
... this is really my main gig, these sorts of skills. It can be classed as one of the many forks off the "survivalism" tree. Other forks might be like has been pointed out the SCA, and re-enactments, like civil war era, frontier era, etc, but the main tree is a day to day living lifestyle, where you try to use DYI skills and techniques to get what you need and want without being "dependent" on the outside as much. I have always described it as more "amish with a lot more technology". You can blend things together, the only limit is what you really want out of it, like any other skill *set*. It's also a factor of just a grown up version of boy scout skills and the "be prepared" motto taken to it's logical directions. You do threat analysis, then develop mitigation efforts and plans. Skills as mentioned fall roughly under these topics some place. I divide normal day to day life thusly:
water-food-shelter-security
And in that order, as to "human priorities",no matter how rich your are, or what theoretical access to something you might have according to a theoretical "account" someplace,or 'the store will alwasy be open", etc, no matter WHAT, you will NEED those things. Those are the things you NEED, not the potential, or that maybe you might be able to get them, but stuff you need about constantly. The goal is to be independent of those needs, not needing outside support, to whatever degree you want to take it.. (yes, I know I left air out, take it as a gimmee)
Most of what you do as a human can be classified under those main topics (some way or another). You work towards the ability to become independent as much as possible. One day, one week, one year, lifetime. It's more a lifestyle, directed and purposeful, BUT, it DOESN'T always imply *strictly* "primitive". On the contrary, high tech has a great place in there (like is night vision cool or what), BUT It DOES imply backups, and backups for backups, where a lot of the "older" technological skills come directly into play.
Typical example here
lighting: we have from primary to ending backup [electrical lighting]solar> generator> batteries>[liquid fuel, could be plant oil derived, usually kero] lanterns> candles [various waxes, etc, animal fat]
here's a simple food example
Day to day "normal" grocery food> garden> medium term (time wise) stored food [home canned, dehydrated, etc] > extreme long term stored food [nitrogen and dessicant packed, etc] >hunting, fishing, wildcraftinmg, foraging, trapping, etc (some of these change in priority status with the seasons obviously)
Our water supplies
Deep well, 240ac pump, tap water on demand ie "normal"> large storage tanks kept full and rotated> outdoor pool> pull the electric pump on failure, use manual water pumping> pond & stream close by> gutter collection of rainwater >solar distiller (very low volume)
And so forth. Archery to Zoology, literally, whatever is your best tech down to primitive level and be able to pull it off, mod, repair, improvise, whatever..you are always learning, and adding to both your gear and skill sets.
It's completely neat-o, most practical as well, you are most free to use full geekazoid powers,and we are quite comfortable day to day living, with all of "society" and technology working,but should it completely collapse tomorrow (some big nasty war, terr attack, asteroid hits washington DC, who knows, whatever),or partially collapse (big depression, etc) we would do most fine without a lot of hassle. In fact I am always sorta amazed how close the concept of survivalism is to these articles and anecdotals I read here about critical data storage, the idea is identical.
You'll find most survivalists are also alternate energy enthusiasts, computer users, ham radio users, know a lot of mechanics, carpenty, gardening skills, repairing, just the kitchen sink. there's a big crossover, again, it's hard to generalise, there's millionaires to uhh people like me, dozen
I wouldn't categorize ALL geeks as being the DIY kind, but I think there's a common trend here.
:-) and I grow all sorts of herbs.
The reason to hack, crack, or otherwise DIY all sorts of things (beer brewing isn't necessarily a lost art, it's just unpractical to most people) is merely the "I wonder if I could..." form of curiousity. At least that's the way it is for me.
I first wondered how beer was made. Then I found out that there were kits. Then I realized these kits sucked. Then I studied further on how to brew from scratch. About $2000, 40 Gallons of stuff I couldn't drink and 200 sweaty, hard labor hours later I've got stuff that tastes MUCH better than most commercial beer. It wasn't easy though, and the time and money invested makes is questionable as to whether brewing your own is really that much cheaper than buying. But it's FUN.
Same goes for cheese. I don't remember where, but I first heard that Indian (as in the sub-continent, not native Americans) cheese was made by curdling milk with lemon juice. I tried it, and failed misserably. Again, many many man hours (and dirty kitchen and wife screaming) later, I've been able to make mozarella, gouda, swiss, camambert (well, technically it's not camambert since it's not made in the region) and blue cheese. (I would like to call it Roquefort since I use the same mold, but alas, I don't live in France.)
I build a lot of my own furniture, I sew, I cook (and even my wife thinks I'm good at it; she couldn't possibly be biased now, could she?
I've also picked up body piercing and tattooing as a hobby. I know a lot of people will give me sour looks when they learn I "scratch", but I did a lot of studying and practicing the art AND blood borne pathogens, and have only worked on my own body. Yes, my original work looks... um... interesting. But I like it a lot, since I did it myself. It's nowhere anyone would see anyhow. (For those in the know that are wondering, yes I own an autoclave and know how to operate it.) Once again, real autoclaves aren't cheap, and neither is a lot of the required equipment to tattoo with, and certainly my art isn't quite as good as the pros. But still, making your own needles and so on is very interesting.
My wife, although rather computer illiterate, is a true hacker in my mind too. She spins and weaves wool, and has gotten into it so much that she now grows various plants that can be used as natural dyes for wool. She is also a very talented artist, and although she can only blankly stare that the innards of a computer and car, she can sculpt, paint and draw amazingly.
So what's this about the wife thing all of a sudden? Well, perhaps the DIY geek thing is not that computer geeks are also interested in DIY-ing all sorts of things, but rather people that are naturally curious and DIY all sorts of things are also inclined to be curious about computers.
(While I'm at it... anyone know how to make really good apple cidre?)
Anonymous Coward
Semi-tangential, magician Ricky Jay isn't just a performer; he's also a devoted student of the history of magic. He often talks about how important this historical knoweledge is to understanding his art, and his own place in the greater timeline of that art.
It's a lesson that could probably be applied to most contemporary professions...
I was a damn good all-grain homebrewer for a long time, and I'm convinced that it is a great geek hobby. You may start out thinking "Gee, I'd love to have 5 gallons of good cheap beer," but you soon find out that (a) it's not that cheap and (b) you'll drink (or dispose of) quite a few gallons of "Brown Ale Swill" before you get that "good" part down.
But, like many hobbies, the process is at least as interesting as the product. In brewing, you can learn as much as you want about microbiology (e.g. yeast culturing), chemistry (esp. matching water profiles or getting your protein mix right in the wort), engineering "hacks" (tubing, heating, kegging, mixing, PID controllers, chilling), even comp. sci (tricked-out rigs use custom software to control RIMS systems and other neat tricks).
I only stopped brewing because I ran out of time. Apart from some of the esoteric brews (mmm, lambics), you can buy good beers for less money than the total cost (opportunity, etc) of homebrewing. But it's fun. Try it if you haven't!
Engineers love to tinker, find out how it all works, rip it apart and put it back together. Whether it's mechanical, chemical, or physical we want to understand. The only expression of the Renaissance Man left...
put it back together??? whoops
I think a fair number of hackers aren't satisfied until they know how something works, why it works, and that it works well and will continue to. I think this translates into an urge to do a lot of things ourselves. On the darker side, it feeds the "Not Invented Here" syndrome.
We trust what we've made ourselves, and what we've taken apart and reassembled. When a real hacker say he understands something, he truly does understand it. He generally could recreate it given the same materials the original was built with and the same tools. Often, he can make many of the tools too.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
I think the things the OP listed are not necessarily an expression of 'hacking.' Certainly, given the nature of the categorization, these people are more predisposed to picking up these activities than the average person. This does not mean, however, that all (or even most) hackers are beer-brewers or yogurt-farmers or whatever; just that we like to have a detailed firsthand knowledge of whatever it is we are interested in, rather than just acquiring it in prepackaged form. Conversely, there are many people who do make their own soap who would not think to call themselves 'hackers,' even given the non-electronic-specific version of the word.
I had a point, but I forgot it.
the coolest club on
For me, it's about self-reliance. I'm a do-it-yourself guy. People in modern society depend on a huge network of people, almost all of them strangers. We all learned in "Intro to Economics" that when two people specialize, they can produce more goods. However, it's satisfying to live by the fruits of your own labor, if only partially. In order to do so, you have to learn a lot of diverse, basic skills.
I went through a phase where I took this idea to its logical conclusion. I wanted to learn everything necessary to survive by myself indefinitely. This is a daunting (and mildly insane) task, and it should come as no surprise that I backed away from it. But it's still fun ponder every now and then.
irb(main):001:0>
I've been working on growing my own silicon ingots, which I will cut up and use to create my own integrated circuits. I expect to have a 4004 compatable in .... oh .... 30 years or so. After that I'll develop a way to program it, then invent a way to hook a couple of 'em together in a thing I call a "network". This will be just too too solid state.
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
I'm a tech person for a living, but I guess kind of a survivalist at heart. Folks here are right: many of the practices listed in the original post aren't truly "lost", but I would argue that they've been severely altered from what was once a more sustainable and in many cases, environmentally sound, original.
I'm an all-natural soapmaker. Some people have said here that it's useless to make soap anymore, or we don't "need" to make it anymore. However, the crap they refer to as soap in your local supermarket is quite possibly not even "soap".....its detergent, most often synthetically made with carcogenic ingredients, with many of the "good parts", like glycerin (which occurs naturally during saponification) stripped out and "saved" only for luxury bars and creams. A well-made bar of my "real" handcrafted soap, contains no artificial colors, fragrances or other crap. I produce no toxic bi-products when I make my soap. It's made huge differences for people with allergies and other skin challenges. Most people who try hand made soap never go back to the store bought garbage.
Same with gardening and composting - maybe I don't need to grow my own food and compost, but I know my food has no chemicals, isn't genetically modified, and when I compost, I reduce the waste I add to landfills and enhance my garden.
For me, it's also about environmental economies of scale. For example: I grow an organic garden, I feed myself high-quality food and create very few, if any harmful bi-products/environmental effects. When corporate farms grow mystery food for profit, it's a lesser quality food product, whose production often creates harmful waste and often negatively impacts huge tracts of land.
Also, things are often just BETTER if you can make them yourself....that's why we're geeks, for pete's sake! Use Windows??? Bah! And inferior product!!! I want to create my own OS from scratch!!!!!
Sound familiar?
We are attracted to hackerdom for the same reason we are attracted to everything else we have talked about. It involves great skill.
Not just that it takes great skill to do it, but because it is obvious that what we are doing was designed for only those with great skill. We feel "talked down to" when we have to use Win9x, because it is for everyone. MVS 3.8J running on top of VM/ESA on a S/370 mainframe is, very obviously, designed for those with great skill, and it is in using these types of things that we aquire great skill and the ability to learn.
Amateur Radio operators use their rigs instead of a cell phone not because it is easy, but because it is hard. Metalsmiths work with metals not because it can make a better table, but because, when working with that red hot iron, we know that this is something that is only for those with great skill.
This is far from useless. If we stopped seeking skill and mastery, society would lose its masters. We learn so someone will know.
-twb
Also, my parents didn't have a lot of money, so it was important for them to know how to make stuff themselves. We ate fish and venison and made soup stock from leftover bones, which most people don't seem to know how to do these days even though you'll get the best tasting soup ever. Many things in our house, including my most-cherished toys were homemade, etc.
Now, I have an interest in being able to do the things that culture and neccessity caused my parents to learn. And knowing about woodworking and so forth is darn useful. A LOT cheaper to DIY than to buy in most cases.
However, I agree that the drive to learn is what motivates geeks. Even if the skill is not really that useful anymore. Who out there wishes they knew how to competently use an abacus?
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
I make my own beer. On my last batch, tossed the yeast about 15 minutes before CNN broke the news on Columbia, so it's my Columbia Memorial Ale. Will be making a lighter amber ale in a few weeks (need to drink more beer to free up bottles). I also work on my own cars, am in the planning stages for building my own house (will take time off from work and get paid from home loan, like all the rest of the workers), do metal work, wood work, sew, paint, draw, play numerous musical instruments, etc. I'm about average in my skills in all of these things but am very interested in learning everything.
My wife is the same way. She's always trying something new in world cuisine, spins wool, dyes it, weaves it, sews it, etc. She also studies/teaches several styles of world dance, pottery, music, and small engine repair and rebuilding, including her Triumph Bonny.
Of course, we want to teach all this stuff to our daughter, or at least instill in her a love of learning and experimenting.
ps: We met in the SCA but do most of our stuff away from it. The SCA makes for some good parties, though.
I drank what? -- Socrates
Jimmy Carter signed the bill.
After I finished the first batch, I gave a few bottles to this guy in appreciation. As it turned out, he should have refused, thanks, but no.
What had happened, was, I put too much sugar in each of the bottles (this is what gives the beer a head).
So, this guy is lying on his couch, watching tv, chilling. The bottles, full of overcharged beer, are sitting on his kitchen counter, next to his coffee maker.
They exploded. They threw broken glass all over the kitchen, and chipped his coffee maker. Luckily, the couch shielded him from the shrapnel.
Moral of the story: never accept homemade beer from a first-timer.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
I don't think it's a desire to preserve lost arts that drives geeks to do this sort of thing - I think it's more the "I can get the satisfaction of doing a job myself and I can probably do it better than paying someone to do it".
Plus, you get to learn a whole new bunch of cool jargon.
My first real hack was the shiny pipe I made for smokin' pot. Even soldered the pieces together. I was 14 then. The "Industrial Arts" class seemed much more fun after that. Then came the Vic20's. That pipe saw me hacking through Commodore's and LOT'S of ADND sessions. Then I started playing the bass guitar, lost the old pipe, but made new ones. Ahhh, to be young and stupid again.
People who hack have other hobbies. Big deal. Lots of people have lots of different hobbies, and hacking doesn't necessarily have to be one of them. Most total slackers I've known have been interested in things like "metalsmithing, sewing, baking bread, making soap, knot tying, brewing beer, woodcarving, yogurt and cheese." Those are the kinds of things they do instead of working.
As to this going to the core of some essential geekness, I think that is just self-centered, elitist garbage. The human race is such a diverse set, that attempting to draw boundaries around groups based on many traits usually ends up being vapor.
So now that the geeks have claimed interesting hobbies, does that mean the cool slackers will have to watch more television or something? Perhaps we could patent all these hobbies, and sue the slackers for infringing on our turf.
I don't mean to be a party pooper. By all means, all of you go ahead. I just won't be participating in the circle jerk. I hope you don't revoke my membership to geekdom. Fleeing elitism and arrogance is what made me an outsider in the first place.
I'm not trying to troll here or anything, but what does it matter? If you like doing it, keep doing it, it's basically the same with hacking (or any other hobby.) Some people like working in their yard, some people like doing weird science projects, some people like hacking. It's not the same thing, but they're both good hobbies.
I do have to say though editors, can't we get some more relevant questions? I thought this site had "Stuff that matters."
I do these things because I want to be in control. There is nothing worse than a stupid situation that you *know* you could get out of with some basic skill...
This is one of the greatest attractions OSS currently holds for me. I know that anything I learn to do with OSS tools, I will continue to be able to do for a long time without getting permission, paying fees, or dealing with silly restrictions that only benefit companies who have enough already.
On a personal level it makes sense as well. Taking the heat for something you are not directly responsible for sucks.
Anyone willing to stick their neck out in order to champion some proprietary software is just gambling with their career. You think they really care?
They don't, it is just about revenue and nothing more. If your problem is shared by many you can be safe in the knowing it will be addressed. You can even look like you are on the ball while advocating your marginal 'standard' in the box thinking. The real truth is you are more lucky if you stick with the crowd.
This attitude promotes strong in the box thinking combined with a healthy and well refined finger pointing and blame shifing skills. Innovation? forget it. Competitive advantage comes down to how hard you can make your people work and how big of a ball buster you have for a purchasing agent. Boy, that sure makes me want to come to work early... (cough)
I once worked in a shop where one of my job duties was to make sure that what I made was correct and within stated tolerances. This shop had a quality assurance department to help make sure this was true, but it was expected that you had tools, knowledge of the machine and the ability to read and understand the specifications because the quality people sometimes made mistakes too.
Well, one batch of rather large and expensive parts was found to be defective one day. It was right after I had complted my stage of the work.
I was found to be at fault for not making sure the guy before me did his job right. I was pissed at first, but thought about it and it made some good sense. Afterall I had the information and tools to evaluate the work done before --why not?
I made damn sure afterword to have the skill and information needed to evaluate both my own work and those before me just to make sure I had the ability to deal with what I was responsible for.
So take this ethic in the context of systems being sold and used today. It's scary.
On one hand you have to trust the software is designed well and does what it says because you cannot actually see the work of others before you --even if you have the skill.
On the other, the company that pays your way wants you to be held accountable for what those same systems do. You did ok the purchase right?
The creator of the software takes almost all of your rights through the legal wrapper that comes with the package while you take the heat and have to deal with the issues.
So you can evaluate basically nothing, must pay blood money for fixes and updates out of your control and take the heat for the fuckups of one of the most cash rich companies around?
At least with Open Source you can examine what you are getting. You can learn how it works and why it does so. You can implement how you see fit and act in a responsible manner.
I was called the fool for hosing up so many parts. I was asked why I worked so hard at doing the right job on parts that were wrong.
Today when I see all the win32 problems I shake my head and wonder at the foolishness of it all. Who in their right mind would actually step up and take that kind of responsibility understanding that they are more or less powerless to act on it?
I guess ignorance is really an excuse in IT. Can't find any other reason for it.
Franky, the whole mess makes me sick.
So, back to the skills. I like knowing that I can go into the woods and make fire, shelter weapons do just fine. Sometimes th
Blogging because I can...
Civilization as we know it wouldn't have been possible if we didn't possess the desire and ability to discover. I think there's more than just one kind of hacking: Some like to hack by tinkering and others like to hack by communication with others. The latter tend to see it a little differently: they are establishing important networks of relationships within their community and would rather have those kooks get out of the garage and finish some chores.
A good source of machine books would be:
http://lindsaybks.com/
Just a suggestion: look a little deeper into "modern" music than the schlocky garbage that populates MTV and most of the radio. There are plenty of musicians out there that are truly interested in the music (not the money), who are very talented, and perform some very interesting and innovative music.
Unfortunately since they're *not* in it for the money, they don't get the airplay, the publicity or the recognition that they deserve.
Check out Opeth (generally classified as "death/doom metal" but far beyond that label), NoMeansNo (jazz/punk fusion is the best description I can think of), Nightwish (sometimes cheezy *music*, but pay attention to Tarja's operatic singing), and Apocalyptica (those Finns are weird)
Is this common in geekdom? Is this an expression of 'hacking' outside of machinery/engineering?
. . . is this Salshdot? Or Kuro5hin?
I think another facet of "hacking" things is the feeling of being more in control. For much of our lives in modern society, from manufactured products to fast food, things are created by other people to be sold to us at a profit. What's really in that chicken pot pie?
Doing for yourself gives back some measure of control and satisfaction, even if it is in relatively small ways. For example, I prefer to drive a manual transmission car. I would bet a larger percentage of the Slashdot population drive manuals than the general population in the USA.
I also ejoy making pancakes, scons, and biscuits from scratch. Similar recipes, yet quite different outcomes. With that level of control, I can make custom pancakes by adding whole wheat, or other types of wheat. Yummy pancakes you will never find in a predefined one-size-fits-all mix at the store. As a bonus, it's also cheaper than buying mixes too.
you just need to hook up that 455 to a generator and use it to power your toxitherm 3000 mercury vapor arc furnace and wort heater.
Yeah, so I have one pair of shorts that I wear every day, and my girlfriend keeps trying to take me shopping to get more shorts. I tell her I want to make my own, and I do! I hate wearing the same damn stuff that everyone else does. I'm not trying to stand out or anything, it just pisses me off how mass produced everything is. I just want my own thing! Same reason why I build my own computers. Same reason I'm trying to make my own watercooling system instead of buying a kit(I'm also poor, though).
I think dating should be considered analog hacking. You know, using the right lines at the right time, trying to get those fricken "chinese-puzzle" bras off.....
Table-ized A.I.
...now that everyone's unemployed!
Computer hacking is just one way to reclaim self-sufficiency.
It's been my experience that hackers are fiercely self-reliant. Not only do they resent being micro-managed at the office, they hate being "consumers". They hate depending on others, because they are, by nature, distrustful.
All hackers I know embody the "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself" mentality. This is why they learn to code, for when the system fails them. This is why they learn to defend themselves, for when the system fails them. This is why they learn to hunt/make food and basic essencials of life, for when the system fails them.
Hackers are, in very many ways, survivalists, adapted for the "Information Age".
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
This is one of the most fascinating discussions I've seen on /. in a while. I really had no idea that this was part of the "geek culture." I thought it was just me.
If you are interested in the idea of learning how to live off the land or "get off the grid," I would highly recommend this site. There is some political discussion there that some of you might not agree with, but the common theme of the site is living a completely self-sufficient life.
I will shamelessly admit that this next is, in part, whoring to promote a friend's web site, but it's not off-topic and you may just find it interesting:
I have a best friend that has never been a computer geek per se, but is the only person that has ever REALLY seemed to understand me. (I'm more left-brained and got into computers. He's more right-brained and artistic. But we get along so well because we both have at least a mild interest in ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING; how it works and how it's done.)
Anyway, he taught himself, from very old books, a lot of practice and trial and error, metal working techniques from the turn of the century that so-called "experts" told him were just myths.
He now makes his living in metal works, with NO formal education or real "training" at all. On the side, he designs and builds functional art with wood and metal. He has some very unique (and all hand-crafted) furniture and stuff for sale on his web site.
(Please check out the site if you're at all intrigued. I admitted I was whoring for traffic, after all. Also, don't critique the site construction: I threw it together in a couple of hours, planning to go back and "do it right" and never got around to the latter.)
He's even been kicking around the idea of building a computer *into* a desk so that the computer is completely invisible and doesn't interfere wth the aesthetics of the room. Probably not an idea so appealing to present company, but a great idea nonetheless, IMHO.
Personally, my current hobby (other than computers) is cooking. Now that I live in an apartment, I've realized that most food doesn't actually come from boxes (or from restaurants), but instead from recipes (not necessarily written down). Too bad my mom didn't try to teach me that...
Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
Every once in a while I remember why /. is more of an addiction than a website. This story and the threads that follow is one of those times.
Of course we love to learn. We're geeks. We learn these skills because we can. We do it because it's there.
If you are trying to utilize your space efficiency, are you using intensive agriculture? [Has several names, basically, instead of planting your crops in rows, you plant them in wide beds.]
If so, what successes have you had? I've discovered that peas tend to crowd out the light on the inner plants (but that might have been too dense), however, loose leaf lettuce works very well when planted in a 4"x4" grid - after a few initial weedings, they'll crowd out all light and stop the weeds, and tend to keep themselves cooler, thus preventing bolting.
Michigan State University... Sometime in the distant decade...
Second year "dormers" (a disgrace) team up with their suite-mates. If you are not familiar with the term, "suite-mates" are four people that share a bathroom - two roommates per suite. In any event, since this was the second year, an "arrangement" had been made. All four suite-mates bunked up in one suite while the other suite was outfitted with a 400 gallon micro-brewery.
The story ends with me - soaked in my own urine - telling the authorities that I was "Bob Vila".
I don't think that they bought it...
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
I've been known to play with them there old vacuum tubes from time to time. It takes one back to one's roots; staring at the warm glow...
Yes, you're a hacker. And also a witch. Therefore you are a TERRORIST!!! Burn the TERRORIST HACKER WITCH!!!
Please re-elect me.
-GW
Is chemistry outside of college labs and big industrial concerns going to die out? Or is there some way to let the Feds know you're just doing it for your own curiosity and not engaging in "acts against the state"?
That is all.
Check out the 'foxfire' books... they are a combination of mountain man tall tales and 'how to skin a bear' manuals... popular in the 70's I think. http://www.foxfire.org/public.htm
OK, I've seen many things mentioned here, but so far nobody has touched on my personal favorite "lost art" - steam engines. Real, 12-inch-to-the-foot scale steam locomotives. They fascinate me nearly as much as a computer (and homebrewing, and growing food (by the way, homebrew tastes far better than Spudwiser, and a carrot, fresh from the planter on the windowsill is not only crunchy, but *sweet*)).
:) Y'all can be fascinated with musclecars, metalsmithing and pinball machines, but for me there is nothing so interesting as watching movies of old steam trains rumbling by. A 4-8-8-4 can really get me breathing heavy :)
... but not at all to the extent the old steamers were. The old steamers had soul - the new deisels have ... well, I'm sure they have something, but for the life of me I can't think of it right now :)
Once, only once, was I allowed to ride in the cab of a steam locomotive. It was an old Heisler logging engine, that had been resurrected by some farmers near Rockford, Illinois. Goddess, it must have taken weeks for that smile to go away
And, the fun part was that each one of those machines was hand-crafted by highly-skilled builders. Every railroad had slightly different designs, for their slightly-different terrain and loads. Some needed raw power, to haul stuff up steep grades; others needed sheer speed, for passenger liners; still others needed tight turning radius on narrow track laid atop the winter's ice in timber country. All were custom-designed, and custom-built (kinda like a really good piece of software... "elegant" is the word usually used, but that can hardly convey the appreciation these gems inspire).
Today's deisel-electrics are still somewhat customised
Anybody know how a steam engine backs up? Or why they "chug" when under load? There are books and tapes that explain it all, and there are even places where you can build your own working miniatures. Wish I had a place big enough to do that *sigh* but it's not exactly an apartment-sized hobby.
Lemon curry?
Today geeks learn their skills by playing EverQuest. As a slave to EQ you can increase your skill in the following exciting trades...
* Alchemy: A Shaman-only trade, alchemy is used to create spells in a bottle, which anyone can use to enhance their character stats for a short time.
* Baking: Baking is a great way to enhance your character with a unique personality. Just imagine the fun you can have offering people a special treat of Lizard on a Stick or Paladin Pickles! And now, some foods have powers that can add to a players fighting abilities, so it makes baking all the more enjoyable.
* Blacksmithing: A useful and profitable skill, blacksmithing permits creation of armor, weapons and a variety of magically enchanted items.
* Brewing: While mainly a role-playing skill, there are some other uses for brewing, such as quests which require brewed items to be completed. The brewing trade is a must for any role-playing Dwarf!
* Fishing: Fishing is a relaxing skill and a great way to get your own dinner. Grab some grubs, a fishing pole and stout ale, and enjoy the day by the water.
* Fletching: Make your own bows and arrows that are a lot better than the ones you can buy at a merchant...and sell your handmade bows to other players. This isn't a great way to get rich, but it does come in handy for those races that can use a bow -- Ranger, Warrior, Rogue, Paladin, and Shadowknight.
* Jewelcraft: Jewelcrafting is a very useful and profitable skill. While anyone can take up this trade, it seems to be easiest (and more profitable) for enchanters, who can enchant the necessary metals to make magical items, and who have the charisma to buy and sell to vendors.
* Pottery: Pottery is used to make containers which can then be used for other trades, such as Poisoning and Alchemy.
* Tailoring: Tailoring is a useful and handy skill, especially at lower levels when buying armor can be so very expensive. At higher levels, it can still be a good skill for making hand-made backpacks.
* Tinkering: This gnome-only skill is used to create a variety of useful and interesting items.
Source: http://www.planeteq.com/character/trades/
Note: I am an EQ survivor and no longer play. However, I know a good jewler in case anyone out there needs a +5 Cha (Charisma) ring.
For as long as I can remember (and that's pretty far back), and ever since I've been interested in how *everything* works. When I was 2 I wanted to explore the house and needed to escape from the crib - my crude investigation of the wooden slats with my legs revealed that kicking them hard enough made exploration possible (true story). When I was 5, I built a hand-held calculator from a Poly Paks kit (neon LEDs, 9 N-cells for power) with my dad - I even did some of the soldering. Took apart the TV shortly thereafter - rebuilt it too. Went downhill from there: Engines. Metalurgy. Aerodynamics. Physics. Astrophysics. High-energy physics. Biology. Chemistry, explosives. Improvised munitions. Biochemistry. Endocrinology, neurology, surgery, opthomology, psychology, psychiatry, cardiology, anatomy. Geology. Palentology. Marine biology. Mathematics. Computing, networks, programming. Quantum mechanics. Gravitational field theory. Chaos theory. String theory. Booze (drinking, making, learning about wine to impress the girls). Pharamacology (medical and recreational), poisons. Bicycling. Motorcycle riding, car repair. Farming. Building/construction techniques. Making soap. Locksmithing. Managerial sciences. Hydrodynamics. Cryptography. Architecture. Acoustics. Communications. Optics. The Law. Engineering. Manufacturing. and probably about 200 other things that I've neglected to put in... ... and so it continues.
Basically I'd look at something - say "I wonder...", and start investigating. If I didn't know something as I investigated - I hopped off on a tangent for a while and investigated until I was able to resume the original investigation. If the tangent was interesting enough, I'd come back to it and explore that too. I've met a few *true* hackers, and we've had a lot of the same experiences - so there's nothing wrong with wanting to learn how things work, or how something is produced...
I've always been a hacker. Always will be a hacker. And I'm proud to admit it because it's all about life-long learning, and there's *nothing* wrong with that.
Cool with me.
I currently have a couple of basil plants, mint, and onions on my second floor half a double in new orleans, but am looking to start some bigger food crops, however my biggest limiting factor is sunlight. I have only about 10 square feet total that gets good (>= 6 hours) sunlight. That is taken from one landing, and a converted garbage hanger.
Do you have any suggestions for tomato's or cucumbers or lettuce in planters, milk crates, anything scavenged (non-traditional)?
I think that learning how to do things yourself does give you more control, and is definitely akin to hacking. I remember screwing up plants through trial and error for 2 years before I got watering right (or at least better)
Once you have got down that skill, in my case watering, that direct knowledge is yours. You don't just know in the abstract anymore about how processes work. You KNOW.......the same thing goes for fixing bicycles, printers, musical instruments, computers, biology, religion. All of these things once taken out of the abstract really can have direct meaning instead of just being ideas that other people have given you. I know that things I have learned directly have given me more satisfaction than concepts I have read, or seen on tv, or browsed on the internet.
ideas should be free
As a self confessed post-neo-geek I feel the major driving force in my life (including well before indoctrination into the cult of the computer) has been a desire to be able to stand on my own feet.
To this effect I (mis)spent many years of my youth in the pursuit of the knowledge our societies are built upon but rarely acknowleged.
From trapping/skinning/curing to ceramics to metal refining/smithing and beyond.
The driving force behind this is a long held belief that the current system is unstable and heading for a crisis. Only those who are truly able to survive and prosper without requiring outside skills, tools, or assistance will be able to weather the coming storm.
Don't dismiss this as the confused ranting of a right-wing paramilitary with medieval leanings - change is as inevitable as the tides, and about as powerful.
Q.
Insert Signature Here
...when you do something yourself, you choose how you like it. I don't need XXXX or VB (or Budwiser) to tell me what good beer is. Brewing my own beer does not stop me from drinking or enjoying a commercial beer. It simply gives me a choice. And if I don't like a batch of my own beer, I can try to improve it.
Open source software is the same. It give us a choice, I do not need to use Windows or MacOS, but I can still choose to if I want. I don't even need to use Linus' or AC's kernel, I can make my own changes to the source.
The real benifit is this, what if all the beer companies (or whatever product it is) amalgamated and there were only a few types of beer. What if Apple died and there was only one commercial desktop OS. If there were no hackers making there own beer, writing there own software what choice would there be?
-- Cut and paste is not code re-use!
Then they invented the radio, tv, cable and sattelite. And televangelism took on from there. Hardly changing the wording at all. "Right here ! Right Now !". Poor Crowley.
Correct. I'm not a brewmaster, by any stretch of the imagination, but I've talked to enough beer makers to get the idea that Budweiser is the prime example of the "American" style of beer.
You can love it or despise it, but it's a valid *type* of beer, just as a "pale ale" or a "lager" is. Like you said, Bud is technically perfect. It's just often derided because many folks feel the American style of brew sucks, as a whole.
As for the traditional skills being a "waste of time" because they're outdated - I think that's one way to look at it, but it's a rather shallow, tunnel-visioned way. I'm not really motivated to make my own butter or soap, but I have made butter before once, and it gives me a little more insight into how far things have come over the years. It also gives a better appreciation and respect for the little innovations that make mass-production possible today.
I have built a couple of tube amps and preamps. The take time and the tube as still available from russia sources and the U.S.A.
Most people wonder why make an amp. There the tons of shit in Future Shop to buy.
well, if anyone has heard tube sound. They would never buy another solid state amp.
Solid state is a more efficent power wise. For stereo sound. Tubes amps beat solid state hands down.
Also, tube amps are very easy assembled. With a couple of resister and some caps. Also, an output transformer. I can have something playing sound.
It is :
:)
"A smell of boiled cabbage permeates everything."
So, there you are !
Check em off:
Homebrewing
Gardening (vegetable/food)
Pottery/Ceramics
Painting (art and walls)
Reloading (cartridge ammunition)
Woodworking (as storage space allows)
Cooking (most days)
Metalsmithing (lathe, welding, etc)
Breadmaking (several times a month)
Photography and developing/printing (too expensive at the moment)
Cloth dyeing (well, more my mom and sister than me)
I usually pick these up when the timing is convenient, learn enough to be competent, then move on to the next thing, but eventually come back around in a circle later to learn more about the subject when it's relevant again.
Ultimately my goal is to have a smallish farm in a semi-rural area near a university town, build my own house, and include lots of greenhouse, storage, and workshop space.
Oh yes, and cogenerate my electricity and heating with net metering or mutex switched grid/local electric. Not to mention passive solar heating, cool reflective roofing, and a combination of thermal mass and evaporative cooling.
if you start acting like an economist and figuring out "economic profits" it turns out that there are none. But that's true in any market economy, you can't make anything more than anyone else does doing similar things.
We do it because we like it. We like it because that's the kind of people we are. We're drawn to quality and efficiency. See Paul Graham's article on hackers and painters. To quote:
"What hackers and painters have in common is that they're both makers. Along with composers, architects, and writers, what hackers and painters are trying to do is make good things."
((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) http://www.endpointcomputing.com a scientific approach to custom computing.
I'd rather have someone play with my penis.
I just finished reading Neal Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon". Great read. One of the things he expressed about hackers is that they often have alot of unusual hobbies. Many of the replies in this discussion bear this out.
Hacker's also tend to gravitate to studying all sorts of stuff. A few years ago for me this was astronomy. Or emergency preparedness. Or Converting cassette tapes of family vocal histories to digital format. Or, after "Cryptonomicon", crypto's got my attention for a while.
Cadmann
Well, it depends on what you mean by hacking. Breaking into secure systems? No. Writing a program? No. Simply exploring an existing program/OS/whatever? Maybe, but I don't know if I would really call that hacking.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Years ago I did a yoga retreat, and learned enough of the history to discover that some millenia ago, yoga and meditation were the hot happening things that occupied the brainiest people then living, the then-equivalent of today's startups and stock options and IPOs. Interesting.
This essay describes a historical cycle that takes place in Thailand, repeating every century or two. Somebody goes out into the forest and meditates like crazy, rediscovers the Buddha's original findings, and starts a monastic forest tradition. Then the local authorities re-domesticate Buddhism, harnessing it for nationalistic and social purposes. After a few generations the forest tradition burns out, leaving behind a state-endorsed religion that discards the investigative orientation on which the forest tradition thrived. A century or so later, somebody else starts the whole thing up again.
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
I am *definitely* sure the world will end then. I mean, All those Unix servers, Amigas, some of the Macs, if people didn't fix it at Y2K, who is going to remember in such an odd year as 2038? If nothing else, it will bring NASA to a grinding halt, as I recall they do their launch control on Amigas still (someone fron NASA verify this?) For all you peace-lovers, don't forget, Armageddon after 7 years of world peace, and then all Heaven and all Hell's gonna break loose!
Born 7 July 1907 - Died May 8, 1988
http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah/rahbio.html
It says in his bio that he was a naval officer, an astronomer as well as a writer.
I'd say he survived pretty well.
I mean, it's not like he'd died of tripping over a log and hitting his head on a rake at the age of 23.
You can love it or despise it, but it's a valid *type* of beer, just as a "pale ale" or a "lager" is.
Not to nitpick, but the two examples you listed don't quite match. Pale Ale is a reasonably specific type of beer, while "lager" indicates a very wide range of beers.
Not to nitpick further, but Bud is a lager. I think the "American" style of beer you refer to is the 'classic' American Pilsner. Which is a lager.
=]
--
a.b. murray
Hey, I'll play! Anyone know what the heck keeps eating my just-emerged beets down to the roots? It ignores baby corn, potatoes, peas, turnips, onions, and carrots, and is getting thru chicken wire. Haven't found any droppings so nothing to ID the beast. Doesn't seem to be carrion beetles or birds, but I suspect it's the same critter that's eating the Calif.poppy seedpods just before they ripen, and leaving the husks in piles, so likely some small rodent (no gophers or mice in that area right now, tho). Grrrr...
I've got 10 acres and a 70gpm well, so garden space is limited mainly by how much ground I care to turn and mulch (local version of SoCal high-desert soil is effectively nitrogen-free sand, so you gotta provide it yourself) and how much rabbit fence I feel like stringing (I swear the Starving Attack Rabbits only eat stuff humans planted; makes me wonder how they lived before humans planted stuff!) Still, the fact that it gets to 118F here in high summer makes compact planting a good idea, to shade the soil and avoid cooking the roots.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
The previous post is an oxymoron. Everyone knows that a lack of social skills and stimulating conversation do not coincide!
Earlier in the comments someone mentioned that they brew beer because they can make it exactly how they want and control ingreedients for the ideal brew, and this is the same reason that they build their own computer. It seems like the common thread in all of these is that we are all big time DIYs. I'd like to pose this question, why are geeks such do it yourselfers? My own initial guesses:
Are we so arrogant that we are convinced that no one can do anything better than us?
Did we learn over time not to trust others?
Do we require the stimulation of understanding the process more than the final result?
Any other ideas or comments?
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
I won't need to know how to make soap, or sew, unless civilization collapses. And since there's as much chance of that
With World War IV[1] starting in the Middle East, how much probability is there of at least some nation collapsing? I'd say close to 1. "Unless" is "until," my friend.
as there is in god existing
Define god as whatever entity created the universe. Therefore, I've just defined god into existence for a given definition of god.
[1] According to some historians, WWIII was the so-called Cold War, which went hot several times: the police action in Korea, the conflict in Vietnam, and the missile crisis in Cuba.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Well... You can get into incredibly fine divisions when splitting beer into styles, to the point of one-to-one style-to-individual-beer. Having said that, you're pretty much correct. Kind of. Pale ale _is_ a style, but it's also an overarching category. Lager is just an overarching category. Pale ale can be divided into pale, India Pale Ale, bitter...it goes on and on. Bud is the prime example of American Pilsner, aka "American light lager". Great American Beer Fest style guide is a list of just how nitpicky brewers can get. My entry this year fits in #61, Imperial Stout.
Of course, that's not to say there isn't a place for such a thirst-quenching style of beer. After working hard in the yard on a hot Summer's day, a Schaeffer's or Grain Belt go down pretty damn good!
[ insert your own witty .sig here ]
Well, for real DMS go for Rolling Rock. DMS=dimethyl sulfide, for those who don't know. As mentioned, creamed corn/cooked veggies flavor. Budweiser _does_ contain more malt than rice; otherwise they couldn't sell it as beer. If you want me to go into six-row malt vs two-row malt I will, but it's long and tedious to explain, and I usually need hand gestures to do it. My idea of lawnmower beer is an IPA, but hey...everyone has their favorite.
Quests for lost and restricted knowledge are common enough. You see, the geeky type wants to know, and by knowing, tends to do. But he tends to run into the walls of censorship (for whatever reason) and lassitude that are erected around knowledge in time. Every tool is a weapon; and lately, if you can't make a buck off of it, it tends to rot away in some forgotten corner.
For myself, I have several copies of the Foxfire books, and I'm always looking out for old chemical recipes (from the good old days when real chemicals could be purchased, particularly stong acids, bases and metallic compounds). There isn't an old bookstore in a certain radius from my home whose chemistry books I haven't raided. The times of real scarcity are coming and I had better be well prepared to fix and manufacture on my own, so even very basic knowledge ("how do you make sulfuric acid?") is compelling to me.
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
It sounds like you're still brewing professionally. Whereabouts?
[ insert your own witty .sig here ]
Sacramento, CA Hoppy Brewing Company Much better brewery than Pyramid, much smaller, much more fun to work for.
Funny thing is, I live in Des Moines, Iowa and Pyramid was only recently made available here. I've had it a few times while travelling, but not much, so I bought a six of the pale ale tonight. Having one now, in fact, and its not too bad, if a little oxidized. Do you know how to figure the fill date based on the "Enjoy By" date or the code (tank and julian date?) beneath it?
[ insert your own witty .sig here ]
Speaking of beer and geekery, I think that the book Beer, for Pete's Sake by Pete Slosberg epitomizes the hacker spirit. Slosberg, the Pete behind Pete's Wicked Ale, talks about his life, the history of beer, and the story behind the formation of Pete's Brewing Company, and how they intertwine and overlap. It's largely thanks to Pete, you know, that you can find microbrewed beers in every liquor and grocery store across the country. His Wicked Ale was the first to become more than a regional curiosity, paving the way for all the others that followed.
I think there's just something about a rags to riches, in your spare time, having fun with it kind of success story that epitomizes the hacker ethic. The fact that it's kind of an esoteric field doesn't hurt, but I don't know that it's strictly necessary.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
dictionary.com can help us do this as it searches foldoc and the jargon file. Actually we really want to look at the definition for hacker to get the whole picture;
See also hack value. Effort expended toward a seemingly useless goal.
I personally would define a hack as something which leads to a deeper understanding of a system, allowing you to make the system do something it was not designed to do, or to accomplish something it was designed to do in a way that was not intended by the creators. Improving any system (including, say, physics models via research) is hacking because you are extending it; The hack value increases as it becomes more difficult and/or unusual.
So making soap, that's not hacking. That's following instructions. Making soap better - either improving on antiquated processes in such a way that you can make better soap with old technology based on science which was developed sinc ethe invention of soap - well, that's hacking. Making antibacterial soap (I know, I know, all soap is antibacterial) with ingredients readily available in medieval times would also qualify.
Also, using new technology to make better versions of old things quite reasonably qualifies. For instance, using computer computation to do stress modeling to determine the best shape to make a breastplate shed blows would be hacking, even if you make the end product with completely traditional means and don't improve on the process at all. But then again, how can an intelligent person fail to improve on any process unless they're just doing a job the way they're told to do it?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
'Fraid not...I never was in the packaging side. I do know that the oxygen content is pretty high (old, tired bottling line) and some of the off flavor may come from the iso-hop extract they use to bring the bitterness up to spec. Another reason I don't drink the stuff.
You probably should get this book for practicing lost art:
How to Shit in the Woods: An Environmentally Sound Approach to a Lost Art
You'd be surprised how rewarding pickling can be. First of all, you just can't get a good spicy habanero-dill pickle anywhere.
Secondly, the potential for sauce making is great...
Home made Jerky is also a real money saver, but it takes a few tries to get it right.
- I couldn't afford my first Mac Plus and no one would give me one so I traded for parts and built my own.
- I couldn't find a (insert here, such as 'car' 'computer' 'fishing pole' 'handgun' etc.) that had the fit/finish/features I wanted, so I built my own.
'Hacking' as defined in this context is simply a recently redefined word to describe anyone not satisfied with the lay of their cave, and acting to carve out one they feel more comfortable with. Geeks have no corner on this market.The list is endless, and ranges from homes to hammers....pants to pantrys....canoes to castles...shoes to saucepans and calipers to coat hangers.
>> ..things like make soap...
> That's not the first skill I'd associate with the > SCA.
That's because you have to issue make clean as well:
localhost$ make soap; make clean;
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
hop extract?!? Yikes! I think I'll steer clear of it on ethical grounds alone!
[ insert your own witty .sig here ]
Perhaps the reason geeks seek to learn lost arts is because they are aware of the coming Pole Shift. Is it May yet?
Seriously, these are the single best reference to how to EVERYTHING needed for simple country living ive ever come across. One of the volumes covers bearhunting, starting with iron ore, smelting steel, to rifle making, to traking, to how to cook the bear.
Fantastic. They also have every other damn thing you can think of.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I find that I'm drawn to a lot of technical hobbies, and almost all of them are archaic or obsolete in some way -- wood engraving, traditional lead typesetting, handmade cameras and 19th century photographic processes, plant breeding and grafting -- and its so consistent that I suspect it's a sort of subconscious Luddism reacting to the modern tech I stare at for 10 hours a day or more. That they are all complex and technical is, I think, a sign that both my career and my hobbies stem from the same basic personality trait, not that the hobbies are in some way an outgrowth or extension of my career.
I've found this is a pretty common thread among my fellow techies, generally growing in strength, complexity, and expense with age. I think it stems from the love-hate relationship a lot of us have with our machines.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
I don't think I emphasized this enough... this is the first year since I was a kid that I've planted anything. Intensive agriculture? I think I'll be lucky if I get enough stuff so I can give surplus to 3 or 4 neighbors. If that works out, then maybe I'll get fancy next year.
The plot is small enough to weed in minutes with tools, and then about half an hour for the stuff that's too close to the plants for tools. They say corn makes enough shade to kill most weeds. I was thinking of planting marigolds around the tomatoes because they say it's a natural insect repelant.
Anyhow, the corn is in rows, with a few gaps now because 3 plants got knocked over by critters or possibly from the fierce winds. I had to bank extra dirt around them because here on the east coast we've had wind and rain that blew hard on the plants and washed away some of the soil. Now that they are about a foot high, they seem to have developed enough of a root system so this is no longer a danger, but I had to use some of my back-up plants a few weeks ago (I sprouted them in doors during the frost danger period). There are about 3 or 4 backups planted in far-flung corners of the yard, which I will probably just leave now. They will look interesting next to the azaleas; although I've also been told that isolated corn is less likely to have ears because it might not pollinate. There are also backup pumpkins growing in a less optimal spot... I did give two pumpkin seedlings to a neighbor. It will be interesting to see how they do.
Anyhow, although I don't know how this is all going to come out, I highly recommed sprouting indoors as opposed to just planting and praying. If I had done that, I think I'd have had to use twice the seed, because I think squirrels were digging for the little kernels that were still left at the bottom of the sprout. Next year I'll keep them indoors even longer.
Strangely enough, no critters have bothered the pumpkins or the tomatoes yet. I think they're smart enough to wait for those. I've been joking that this is a really labor intensive way to feed the squirrels and the birds.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Yep. We added it by the flaskful at filtration. That's not one of the scary stories, btw. Ask me about the Orange Soda Breathing Incident, or the Dangling Pink Cheese Incident, or the Wading-Through-Caustic-Hop-Sludge Incident, or even the Great Blackout of 2000... Hoppy is much better. The beer's better, the food's better, it's cleaner, they let me work in my Utilikilt. All good things.
It is not the knowledge, it is not curiousity, it is not the desire to know how things work. Those things plus the experience create the competence we crave. That is where our value is. We look down on those who have only knowledge (read only certified), as well as those who are merely curious (script-kiddies). Those who truely earn our respect ar those who are competent, and this is what we strive for in the 'lost arts' and husbandry. Did you know it was called that?
I hope I'm not too late in this thread but I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the Foxfire books (at least I haven't seen anything modded up yet).
The Foxfire Fund was established to preserve the vanishing folkways of Appalachia and, let me tell you, those people knew how to provide for themselves.
There is an extensive series of books covering such diverse utilitarian topics as wood lore, blacksmithing, instrument making, weaving and so on.
Check it out at The Foxfire Fund.
Yes, the Foxfire books (and the original magazines) talk about moonshine among many things. This past year I entered college as a freshman and I started studying Appalachian trades, folklore/art, tradition, etc.
For Christmas my parents gave me their Foxfire book that they've had for 20 years (and never read). I'm reading it now. I'm in the Watauga College Interdisciplinary Studies program at Appalachian State.
God save the liberals (no one else will).
the $5.99 you pay for boneless, skin-off breast accounts for the bones and skin that you throw away when you cut up the chicken yourself-- in other words, you're not saving any money if all you want to wind up with is boneless off breast. butchers rip people off, sure, but this is one instance of the price more or less working out to be what it would be otherwise if you just bought it like that.
of course, the best thing to do is to cut up the chicken and use the whole thing (make chicken stock, eat the gibs and feet, compost the rest) instead of only eating boneless off breast to begin with, but that's a different argument.
Well you are talking about Canadian police. The fact that 73 out of 85 missed the knife surprises you?
They did it for money back then, but they were hackers. None of the three musicians you mentioned created music completely without using code from previous musicians. Sure, they added, but that was all part of the GPL back then. That was why they were good. They built upon the wheel.
Musicians today have bad music because they are the script kiddies of the music world. They have no knowledge of how music really works, but they know what scripts sell. They do not study and cannot figure out how the music really works.
I tie this to constructivist learning theory. Constructivist learners like to know how everything works from the ground up; they don't like to take things for granted. Other kinds of learners don't mind accepting or memorizing certain things, as long as it gets the job done.
i kind of like leaving things to specialists who handle all of lifes 'lost arts' for me, enjoying the time i save to lay around and watch tv.
The meaning of "hacking" as tinkering precedes by far the meaning of breaking into a computer; the latter evolved from the former, and the former is still in common use among hackers.
...why did we ever stop doing those things?
It's practical to have lots of skills. In the past, you used them all the time. Now, we're lazy and get other people to do everything for us, even hemming pants fercrissakes. It's not hard!
I love making my own clothes. I like to plant vegetables out on my balcony, with the pots sitting on a planter that my husband made. I like learning new things. One day, I want to learn how to make shoes.
My husband desperately wants to learn bookbinding. We have a lot of antiquarian books that need some work. Unfortunately, it's a trade only practiced by archivists these days.
This isn't unique to hackers or whatever, it's just that we recognise that some skills are still useful and practical to have.
Last weekend i was sitting at the kitchentable with two friends and while having lots of beer we agreed on the fact that we, in order to prove we will not be lost without technology, have to be able to : make fire.
I mean, you can't do much of the proposed crafts when you can't even create your own fire, can you ?
And we don't mean getting a piece of newspaper and light it with a lighter off course, We mean the real deal : using a bow and arrow type of thing to turn it around on a piece of wood to make it hot.
How about that ?
I think that that would be the one to start with.
--
Kyokushin - ultimate truth from within.
I agree. Yes, I think this is an analogue to "hacking", but taken in another direction.
I grow alot of my own food organically. This has got to be the ultimate reality hack getting stuff to eat from playing with dirt.
;-)
;-)
the ways used to combat pests (slugs are a problem in our damp climate) and the deludge of water in the winter and total lack of water in the summer are pretty cool hacks that are age old.
I have an automatic watering system that stores rain water and during dry spells automaticall waters. The windows on my greenhouse open automatically when it gets hot. And compost, compost is the best age old hack we wouldn't be here without composting
We also make the majority of our own bread and have recently stopped making wine and beer due to changing drinking habits as I past 30.
Green hacking is the way to go. Just look at all the ways people are getting wired off the grid. my personal fav resource is the centre for alternative technology and home power.
You can teach anyone to play with computers but getting them to play with computers, garden, bake and brew is a the sign of a real hacker
sparkes
blog and junk
hey genius, do a little research before you start making assertions about computers and "hacking".
trollerific!
"We're all mad here." --Cheshire Cat
Slugs? They go for anything with the softer leaves, eg Beets, Broccoli, Endives, and most seedlings.
Or it could just be mice, but then they'd eat the corn too...
According to one of the tour guides at a farm in Lancaster, PA, the Amish do not use electricity because they feel they would be directly and constantly connected to the outside world (by power lines). They use pneumatics to run various mechanical things. While I was visiting there, I even saw a heavy-duty kitchen mixer that runs on compressed air.
Most people would rather be certain they're miserable than risk being happy. - Robert Anthony
I want to make something. I'm tired of buying the same cheap plastic / particle board / rubber crap. I'm tired of replacing the same basic furnishings in my life every two years. I'm tired of being a consumer. I want to be a creator. I want to make things by hand so that they will have meaning to me. I want to feel alive, and be a consumer in every aspect of life is not the way. I love being an avid woodworker / carpenter and I'm starting a blacksmith apprenticeship next week.
Why? Because hackers see themselves as artisans, not consumers.
Artisanship is, in my experience, a strong influence in the makeup of many hackers. The best ones remind me of my father, who was a master calligrapher: in their love of making beautiful things, and in the scrupulousness with which they treat their "mystery". I dare say that hacking is the last bastion of artisanship left in our consumption-oriented McSociety.
[this
I find these topics so tiresome, as they are so frequent. You know, prompts along the line of Ask Slashdot: "Are geeks actually better human beings because of X," where X= interest in sci-fi, passion for metallurgy or nuclear weapons.
Cue 500 plus responses of:
'Why, YES we ARE! Our high-speed neuronal firing...' and 'The ability to code is obviously the hallmark of superior sensitivity...'
In actuality, I'm sure that you'd find that janitors and policemen have a wide variety of interests, as well.
Technoelitism is vaguely disgusting. We know a thing or two about computers. Some of Slashdot's membership knows A LOT about computers. Hooray- but that doesn't mean that everyone with technical understanding is a member of Homo Superior.
-jlb"As a Sea Scout, I can't believe anyone doesn't know how to tie basic knots. On the other hand, I couldn't get anyone in my ship to teach me more advanced knots (still trying to figure out the Turk's Head.)" That's exactly why I own a copy of The Ashley Book of Knots. But then, I'm in the Coast Guard, which tends to make my owning this book seem a little less odd.
Most people would rather be certain they're miserable than risk being happy. - Robert Anthony
"As a Sea Scout, I can't believe anyone doesn't know how to tie basic knots. On the other hand, I couldn't get anyone in my ship to teach me more advanced knots (still trying to figure out the Turk's Head.)"
That's exactly why I own a copy of The Ashley Book of Knots. But then, I'm in the Coast Guard, which tends to make my owning this book seem a little less odd.
Most people would rather be certain they're miserable than risk being happy. - Robert Anthony
I see some people making disparaging comments about cities, but I don't think we need to succomb to that excuse. Even the smallest bits of nature bring their own magic with them, and there's plenty of room for just a little something here and there.
I live in the city and have a little balcony garden. When I get home from work in the evening, I carefully water the plants that need it, remove the aphids from my chives by hand, fertilize the poppys, check if any of my strawberries are ripe, remove dead and sick leaves from other plants, make sure neither my mint nor my oregano is getting the upper hand in its fight for space, etc... This all sounds very mundane, but somehow while I'm doing it all, the world seems much more beautiful then it did the rest of the day.
Then I go and use my home-grown thyme, oregano, cilantro, etc, to make a beautiful meal, better than you could get in any restaurant. I eat it while watching the bees come and go from my columbine and bleeding hearts. And that's an important portion of the joy in my life.
Maybe my age is showing or my quantity of country rellies but my family used to butcher our own meat, Dad kept chooks and he eventually got to make jam, beer, pickled olives (not necessarily in that order) and I never ate better than when I went camping with him - no tins or dehydrated food involved. If you can grow tomatos then you must have a go at peaches or apricots or both. The home grown ones are from a completely different taste experience to the shop bought canned or otherwise. I like to make jam, pickled olives, cake, biscuits (amazing what you can get a tech to do for homemade choc chip cookies). I also like carpentry, gardening including growing things. I currently have wild silverbeet, parsley and lettuce in the garden. I've also made soap and candles. I've made rope. I also like sailing, you know, wind driven boats. But my really geeky friends like flying. Gliders or aeroplanes or helicopters. Most of them are not into any kind of food related expression other than consumption of pizza.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
Listen, just because you value your proletarian point of view doesn't mean elitism is wrong. You would be a much better man than I if you haven't found some group to look up to or to aspire to. You sound a bit like you're saying 'I am way more humble than you are'.
I reckon that this post is more interesting when we try to find out what kind of hobbies attract geeks. It goes even deeper -- asking 'what makes someone a hacker?'. Has been asked many times before, but it does go to understanding our collective psychology. But I suppose you don't believe in that either.
Just reading some of the posts, though, there seems to be a remarkable correlation between all these people. Probably coincidence. Nothing to do with the kind of person who reads Slashdot.
Languages aren't inherently fast -- implementations are efficient
There's a multitude of needlecrafts, including some that are less popular, like nalebinding. That might be too girly, though. Perhaps you might want to build your own canoe from strips of cedar. (Don't laugh - I know some folks who do this) Or how about leather crafting? I hear there's a big market[*] for whips and cat'o'nines and leather clothing, oh my!
[*]This is not to suggest that any of the hobby pursuits I suggested should be used as a source of income, just that some hobby pursuits can be a source of income. Some of mine are. (My [incomplete/in-progress] list is located here.
Most people would rather be certain they're miserable than risk being happy. - Robert Anthony
A durable computer, power, circuit boards and missiles, HERF guns, satellite uplink, weather balloon, fusion labs, I think the Brotherhood of Steel is actually /. survivors in the post-apocalyptic community.
Seriously? Sewing is awsome, and if you can't mend you're own fucking pocket you're a retard. No, I don't care if you can mend a pocket. You're just a fucking retard.
*freak*
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
I just saw a cure for this type of thing on TV yesterday (it wasn't for beets, but for something else like spinach?, but should be the same). The secret is to just take toilet paper rolls and put them around the stem so that they are about an inch under the ground, and a couple inches up. You have to be sure that you have enough at the top to protect from whatever the pest is, but also have to leave it low enough not to affect the sun light. Hope you eat the greens on your beets, thems the best part!
Jack and Master refer to places in society under a feudal system. 'Jack of all trades, master of none', says that you will never get far in life if you spread your skills about.
Jack.
a : MAN -- usually used as an intensive in such phrases as every man jack b often capitalized : SAILOR c (1) : SERVANT, LABORER (2) : LUMBERJACK
Master
1 a (1) : a male teacher (2) : a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's often capitalized : a revered religious leader c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
What phrase is more often preached by programmers and less often practised than "Do not Re-Invent the Wheel"?
Might want to check these out: The Country Living Encyclopaedia, Emery The Ten Books on Architecture, Vitruvius In the company of stone, Snow
Never thought of home brewing like that, but it's quite obviously true.
Heh. I happen not to have such books around, but I have always been interested in such subjects. Now that you mention it, I'll probably go and actually buy books on the subject. :-)
(8-DCS)
My dad was a radio presenter, on the BBC no less. He was also unafraid of the sight of solder and would usually be mending something or other ..... if it wasn't ours, it'd be someone else's kit that he'd be fixing. One week he brought home a disco console that needed a new power transistor in the amplifier ..... it didn't really take as long to fix as he made out, but he was teaching me how to spin dem choonz ;) And I have many happy memories of stripping down electric motors on the hearth rug.
..... Same with other mod cons.
.....
In those days, both my parents had Minis, his a 1959 Mark One that he first customised then took back retro, hers a Clubman Estate. And my dad did everything except welding {something I'm going to have to learn}. Even transferred a rear subframe, which - considering how a Mini is built - is easier said than done. Also my mum would make clothes for me and my sister.
Times changed and the necessity for make-do-and-mend disappeared when people started importing cheap goods from third world countries without our stringent quality control and labour laws, leaving our manufacturing industry unable to compete; but these were the Thatcher years and manufacturing wasn't important anymore, we were now a nation of middlemen.
Back to the point. Somehow, I feel a compulsion to learn things: to question, to experiment, and to understand for myself why things behave the way they do. Although I use a breadmaker, this is strictly for realistic reasons. I probably would make my dough by hand if I had the time available
Finding that a bollocking was generally an acceptable price to pay for finding something out, I got lucky and found computers before I got the chance to do any real damage. {Although there is a certain motor traction company that isn't keen on my experiment to find out whether or not it was possible to print my own tickets at considerably less cost than buying them from the bus driver - it was - and it was only my disastrous record with glassare in chemistry lessons at school that made me question the viability of synthesising certain chemicals in my kitchen. Specifically, trinitroalphamethylphenylethylamine. Anyone who's successfully made TNA, or has proof that it's impossible, please let me know!}
I guess it's morbid curiosity: the same thing that makes people stare at road accidents, poke a dead body with a stick, or go into dark cupboards in creaky old houses with only a flashlight
I still make-do-and-mend, and I can't walk past a rubbish skip without having a good look inside. My mobile phone is 3 years old, it still sends and receives text messages and I can still answer it when it rings.
Final thoughts: I was talking to someone about making soap using fire ash {good source of metal oxides, i.e. alkali} and cooking fat {glyceryl triesters of C12-C18 carboxylic acids}. He said, "Do you really think that making your own soap at home is going to bring down the government?" I looked him squarely in the face, and responded: "No, but at least when the government does come down, I'll know how to make my own soap."
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
>> The real benifit is this, what if all the beer companies (or whatever product it is) amalgamated and there were only a few types of beer. What if Apple died and there was only one commercial desktop OS. If there were no hackers making there own beer, writing there own software what choice would there be?
Let's see:
All systems would be running Windows 95, and there would be so many bugs and security issues that today's 2K or XP would seem bulletproof by comparison. It has taken innvovations from rival OSes such as MacOS, OS/2 and Linux to prod M$ into offering anything like them at all.
The beer would be flavourless crap. Until the resurgence of microbrews, most, if not all, commercial brews in North America at least was just variations on a theme. Everything Molson's brews up here tastes like Canadian and everything Labatt's is like Blue. It took the likes of Upper Canada and Sleeman to get them to even think about offering something similar to a craft brew, and even then it's just a cheap knock-off...Rickard's Red is just Canadian with caramel colouring added. When they have bought up small craft breweries, notably Brick and Algonquin, the first thing they do is to cut as many corners as they can, and completely obliterate what those craft breweries were about. Algonquin Honey Brown predated the Sleeman version by a good couple of years, and it was really great stuff! Ditto their Country Ale. AHB is shit now, and Country Ale no longer exists. I'll stick with Sleeman!
As for other industries, consider how shitty American cars were before the European cars really started arriving in the 60s and the Japanese invasion of the 70s and 80s. Both these events forced Detroit to seriously think about how they did business. I doubt GM would offer a single car with a rear window defrost or wiper, much less a real innovation like all-wheel drive if it weren't for the now ever-present threat of loss of market share from the imports. Look how long it took them just to adapt to the so-called Energy Crises of the 70's! We would all be chugging along in two ton turds that got 12 mpg!
does that mean we can't say 'Free as in beer' anymore?
Unless you think that phsychology is bullshit. I don't ascribe to all the theories about my mother being the root of all evel (greatly adlibbed), but I find the inner workings of the human mind at least as interesting as the inner workings of my PC/OS/Car/Palm/etc etc etc, and I think most people reading this have at least tried to imagine what makes us 'tick'.
The problem is, of course that we can't take the human mind apart. There is no source code and there are no original plans. It is the ultimate prorietary product. So we poke and investigate and say 'maybe it works like this' in an attempt to reverse engineer ourselves. If that sounds like bullshit to you, so be it, but I think we should try to learn more about ourselves.
I agree with you that some of the posts sound like people congratulating themselves on doing stuff no-one else does. I just hope that's what bugs you most, and not the idea of trying to find some common motivators for hacking code and hacking matter.
Languages aren't inherently fast -- implementations are efficient
just because you can't spell corecctelly doesn't mean your stupid, sorry. there are way to many teachers on /. sorry, really. /. isn't a school! so go F*#ck youself.
it's probablt this girl-in-primary-school that knows nothing but is pretty has nice hair super-make up put besides spelling she can't think of shit. can't you dummies get it? it's a fucking human invention and utterly use-less to spell correccttely. and it narrows your mind. wrong-spelling get's the readers mind working way more. and hey you dumb ass, languages change thru time, okay? now STOP THIS LAME FLAMING bout spelling.thinking of the story: 1 min. checking your spelling 2 hours, well super. you just got time-hacked by your super-silly english teacher, which by the way ARE ALL GAY anyway.
If a machinist dabbles in computers, he's a n00b, but if a programmer buys a lathe to tinker with on the weekend, he's some kind of Renaissance Man?
"lost arts":
... that was good fun!
making "knots" is an example.
a friend and myself went sailing with a sextanth we got from an antique shop
Some people were raised and taught in a system that enforces correct spelling (and grammar, although the US educational system eliminated that in the late 70's/early 80's). After a long childhood of being penalized for incorrect spelling, punctuation, and the like it's not surprising that some people have fixations bordering on anal retentive levels.
:)
That said, I really don't think it takes too much effort to check your spelling, especially if you are someone who has a problem with it- it helps you to come across more fluidly, as spelling mistakes can be quite jarring to those who can spell correctly.
Also, people who became English majors in college need to have something to justify their existence, since we know they are all useless otherwise
EOM
I routinely let friends borrow my dog for a few days to take care of their rabbit problems.
That's the upside of rescuing starving dogs from farms- they are used to providing their own food.
2 weeks ago he cleared out 14 rabbits in 3 days for a guy down the road. great little mutt.
EOM
Well my skill (other than learning minral spirits will burn very hot) is candle making. pretty cool when you get distracted by the computer and your double bolier system ( a pot within a pot- 1st pot wax inside of 2nd pot- water) gets up to over 300 degrees. (260 is a good pour temp). it becomes vapor and can start a heck of a fire. :)
Life is Long, But the years are short, NOT- while evil days come not
I've found myself in a similar boat. Lately making things like soaps, all natural oil blends (which are much better than commercial colognes or perfumes(and I get more comments on how good I or my office smell)). Plus doing things like making tie-dye t-shirts, which isn't hard, but it's something non technical that requires a bit of innovation. Such as making my own dye bins, finding for myself the best ammounts of different things to use. Which applies to both tie-dying and the oils/salts. And I've started making hemp jewelry. Pretty hippy'ish, but, it takes my mind of the daily pressures of my job, and I feel again like I've accomplished something. As now adays, in my job anyway, we've gone from engineering new products and services (playing), to a maintenance mode, which really doesn't leave alot of gratification at the end of the day. Another thing I've taken up is gardening, don't have much of one, but I've got some fairly fancy flowers and greenery, and a bunch of fresh herbs. Its nice having something else to do that's not technology related at the end of the day.
There are many parts of the world where people take pride in working their land. The US is hardly the first or foremost of these.
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
I think that the so-called "lost arts" hold a certain allure for highly technical people, mostly because it's the antithesis of what we do for a living.
For example, many of my friends and peers are very attracted to aviation (myself included), despite the fact that 99% of the technology of light aviation is 20-40 years old! Old technology tends to stick in that field because it works, not because it's cool. The only exception to that rule seems to be GPS, which both works and is cool!
I think we are automatically drawn to things that represent the opposite of what we do for a living; I know a racecar driver personally whose hobby is horticulture (you know, plants and stuff). He tells me that he finds it peaceful, relaxing and an almost zen-like experience especially after barrelling around a track a couple of times faster than my poor beleagured Ford Escort is capable of for a couple of hours.
This seems especially true of "geekdom" because we have high-tech and stressful careers that do not lend themselves well to wind-down time. Sure, when you're young and in the geekdom you tend to do computers as a hobby as well as a living, but after a certain amount of time (about 5 years in my case), computers as a hobby loses its appeal and you start to find things to do outside of work that may be the polar opposite of your career choice. My hobbies? Aviation, reading (another lost art!!), working on my cars (I think I'm the only person in my subdivision who does that any more)... you get the idea.
Take my viewpoint for what it's worth... me, I give myself 2c.
Foxfire????? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8
- I disagree; we're a nation of tinkerers, on the land as well as in the machine shop or the electronics lab. I think you've drawn a terriffic parallel. Geo. Washington Carver, Luther Burbank, generations of others - it wasn't just the black soil of the Midwest that caused this place to become the breadbasket of the world; it was also our ancestors' tinkering with the crops that were available.
You write about the one "conformist" crop that you must have where I live: tomatoes.
Damn! Drat! I'm not trying to patronize, but I expect that the first time you slice up a ripe tomato from your own garden and bite into it, you won't be too upset about conforming to that local custom. If you like not getting ripped off, as you say (and if you eat tomatoes at all), you might reflect on the price and quality (sometimes a negative number) of grocery store tomatoes and pat yourself on the back for having tended and watered those damned tomato plants all summer. It's like they're not even the same species. Remember: lots of water, and Enjoy!
Think, write, think, edit, think...then post.
I would suggest that rather than being an expression of hacking, this is a side-effect of the ephemeral nature of playing games with data and chips. If you spend that much time, usually in and out of work, working with computers I think maybe you start thinking about the things that last after the power switch goes off.
Perhaps there is a reaction to the fake plastic lifestyle that the economists want us all to buy into (and keep buying, and keep buying) and the loss of sense of place and time that globalisation offers. A feeling that there must be something concrete, something more than concrete. This kind of environment perhaps inclines one to think of how things used to be, in some rose-tinted past.
Ultimately, a hobby is a hobby. It is appealing to think "when civilisation collapses I will be more valuable because I do X" but probably either civilisation won't collapse, or it will collapse in such a catastrophic way that you would be unlikely to survive anyway. The point is, you don't need to talk it up as anything more than it is - most of these passtimes are rewarding in themselves. If you make your own bread and it comes out well, you feel good about yourself. Since my girlfriend has bought a horse and we have had to spend at least an hour working with it each day I have felt more like I'm doing something real than in years.
In the meantime it's always fun to read what ifs about the end of civilisation...
As the saying goes "Knowledge is power". ;-)
Dream as if you'll live forever.
Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
~Anonymous~
What I find interesting is that of every true geek I've ever met, and of nearly every semi-geek, they all have serious side interests such as what are being discussed here: personally I dig cooking at the moment, but I'd be building furniture and whatnot if I had some workspace.
But even though many geeks show serious musical talent and are often proficient with more than one instrument, and usually have an in-depth knowledge of their favorite music genres, very few geeks seem to ever express themselves artisitically other than music.. How many coders paint? How many sysadmins sculpt? For that matter, how many of all these 'enlightened' interesting geeks and technies belong to, or regularly visit, art museums?
Its a disconnect that I still don't understand. Something to do with thinking abstractly and choosing which medium/channel to express the results.
-mj
Cat got your tongue? (something important seems to be missing from your comment ... like the body or the subject!)
I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
Only kidding, but its how people like this are viewed by our government.
'Why do you want to learn how to make your own food, build a house, or survive off the power grid'
This sort of thought process scares the powers that be, because it reduces control of its public. If you can do it yourself then you are a low-level threat that undermines their power structure.
For those that ARE into being somewhat self-sufficient, check out "Lindsey's publications", they are full of 'old tech' books that show the basic skills that this country was built on. ( and many others in generations past , to be fair )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
On a list server I subscribe to about constructing an aircraft called a Bearhawk I noticed a trend similar to the one you see. I was not the only Linux user on the list. So I asked everyone to send me info about their Unix/Linux experience. I found that almost 2 to one I was getting some Unix experience and mostly Linux. not a scientific study but a good indicator that there are a lot of open source people in volved in amateur aircraft construction (above average numbers).
This Bearhawk group is about building an aircraft from plans using the older steel tube and fabric fuselage (like a Piper Cub) construction with all aluminum wings. It is build from plans and not a kit (there is a Kit now but its just hitting the market). This is a four seat large size airplane for heavy hauling.
If you want to know how to take a piece of sheet aluminum and bend it into a complex shape like a wing rib you can learn how. Over the past year I have made 44 wing ribs for a Mustang II (an all aluminum two place speedster). These people openly share lots of knowledge about hand forming, welding, and other (many lost art) fabrication techniques.
These people can chat intelligently about auto restoration, woodworking, home brewing, and many of "Lost Arts" described here. So I tend to think that the tinkerer mindset is drawn to the open source community.
The non-profit I work for can't afford to buy a Win 2K server license if it can be avoided by running a samba file server. They pay me more to set up the first one, but it's still less than the cost of a M$ license.
A poor college student may choose to spend his abundant time tweaking linux, while someone esle plunks down the cash for windows because they don't want to spend the time to learn linux.
I can't afford to buy home made quality tomato juice, strawberry and blackberry jams, organic potatoes with edible skins, asparagus, Personal computers, or tube stereo equipment. My only way to have these things without spending the money it takes to buy them in the marketplace is to spend my time, making my own. I don't spend hours on computer games or in alternate online worlds. I just play at remodeling, gardening, soldering, etc.
As far as foods go, several foods just plain can't be handled enough to get them from the factory to the table without a lot of chemicals and packaging, and altering the recipe, leaving out ingredients that spoil too soon. For example, tomatoes. You can't have a fully vine ripened store bought tomato. It would never make it from the vine to the store to your home. If you grow it, pick it, wash it, slice it, and set it on the table, you can have that quality.
Beer's the same way. I can't buy expensive beer with a clear conscious, so I make do with guinness draft until I can brew my own.
I built a tube preamp and amplifiers because I can't afford that entry-level hifi quality in store-bought tube or solid state equipment.
In short, this is just a result of people making the wise decision of doing rather than just deciding to buy or not to buy. BTW, that's how poor people have done in North America since the frontier opened up.
I can see this. A few of my best friends growing up all ended up being engineers. One Civil, and two are Mechanical. I got my degree in CS. Each of them are geeky in their own way, as am I, but we are all different too. I always wanted to learn how to brew beer, but I can live not knowing. One guy only drinks American Light Beer, while the rest of us like all kinds. I am the only one into computers and geeky political issues. One guy was the smartest, and he appreciates word/math puzzles. One guy is into bodybuilding. We have a lot of similarities, but the differences are greater.
We/they are the same as everyone else whether we like it or not. I agree that most of the replies on this subject are complete elitist crap.
I disagree that we are like everyone else. We are all different, which is the point. Sure, there are similarities with other people, same interests and whatnot, but that is where it ends. I don't get into LOTR, but I have a friend who knows it in and out. He doesn't like computers. I hate Star Trek of all flavors, but know people who love it.
While I was reading through some of the "elitest crap" postings, I could see myself or one of my friends in most of them. Others, I couldn't. It is kind of like psychic readings - you hear what you want to hear. Most people will hear the "cool" things and relate them to themselves, and turn the rest off. Funny how you can relate to the guy who says "I just want to get back to nature, I am a geek" but the geek over there will secretly be thinking "I haven't left my house in 10 years". But that link seems to never make it, but "I want to learn how to brew beer" sparks a "me too!" in your brain. You can't classify geeks into a neat little category, just like you can't classify any other group of people into a category.
I am glad someone called "bullshit" on this post, it needed to be said. But it is still fun to talk about all the stuff people are discussing. But it really isn't anything special to geeks.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I find myself in the same boat. Sure I can buy furniture from a store or ikea or something, but it's more fun to make it onesself, to have the high-touch time and the personal satisfaction of crafting it well, yourself. That comes from several of my non-computer hobbies like woodworking, homebrewing [ i'm not all the good, but it's a worthy effort ], jewelry making, and audio recording [ although i dove back into doing it high-tech-ly with a laptop instead of my old DAT decks in the last few months. ]
I've been thinking recently about this "high touch" sort of aspect of geekness in the last year or so. I moved from the "city" I lived in [ Winston Salem, NC ], to a sort of rural-ish "suburb" [ Lewisville, NC ] a couple of years ago. My next door neighbor and landlord is across the pond from me, up the road I have a horsefarm, 2 miles away is a vineyard, and there's simply a lot of farming going on out here. I find that I love the smells and while I don't "work the land", it's really comforting to drive home, sunroof open and be able to have the sensory information that comes from living in the "country" with the sights, sounds of animals and trees, the smells and mostly just the touch of good green earth nearby. It's made me wonder if there might be many geeks who choose to do significant hobbies that require this sense of touch that one doesn't get from a keyboard, this sense of connection with the surrounding world that is not specifically represented by bits. Are folks who were subject to the dot-com bust now thinking of changing careers to something that does require more handson work but still appeals to the analytical way the geeks like us tend to work mentally? I'm not negating the computer experience, but curious if there's a complementary experience that we seek because we realize that we miss it. Could *that* be part of the reason for the growth of cooking and home decor and remodeling and all the other hobbies and interests we have? Just a thought...
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."-Tennyson
I find it interesting that if you go to a craft show, where they do a lot of these things, ie. make pottery, candles, soap, metalwork, weaving etc 99% of the craftspeople seem to be of european background, the small percentage of minorities are second generation. As a general rule I would imagine that only the first world views this type of thing as craft or art; the rest of the world views this as labour. Just an observation that I thought was interesting.
To me, it is all about how-it-works or perhaps, how I can make it work.
For years, I've read everything that talks about how things work, how to build things, or what makes something tick. My interests run from chemistry to electronics, to woodworking. I have a full woodshop, I do most of my own mechnanical work, and I just love to fix things - my own way. It gives me a greater understanding of how things tick.
A hacker is a hacker, the medium you choose to practice in be it wood or virtual bits doesn't really matter much. What matters is knowing how it works!
Why do you do it? Because you can!
Either you meant this ironically or you missed the SUV frenzy of the past ten years. The Ford Excursion gets between 5 and 10 mpg.
You tell me how "whilst" differs from "while," and I'll stop calling you a pretentious jackass.
http://www.lindsaybks.com has tons of books on wierd stuff like altering your car to run on wood, or smelting metal, or making cement from limestone, or metalsmithing or whatever else you can think of. They even have a book of recipies to make you fart!
Eat at Joe's.
Just a word of advice, your corn will never have enough of a root system to be safe from strong winds. They can and will blow over in a strong wind. However, you can just go out and set the corn upright, cover the roots again and it should be fine. So nothing to worry about really, except having to reset the corn not too long after the winds. Don't leave it a couple days and let the roots bake in the open air. As you'd probably expect, the taller the corn gets the more prone it is going to be to blowing over.
If not now, when?
These days, the ability to read and write are lost arts (insert ObSlashdotEditorComment). Does that mean I get to be a hacker now?
Hooray. If I get out my copy of Neuromancer, I can hack the Gibson!
Most of those things are good to do as a hobby, and you can make most of that stuff cheaper than buying it. I think that we need to keep that knowledge in case something happens to the world and we need to start over again. Also it is good to see how things used to be done.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
I code for the same reason I sculpt. I like create things and I like to muck about and get my hands dirty in my medium.
In art school and my general art life I've learned to weld, forge, draw, build electronics and robotics, work with plaster, clay, paint, make multimedia, make furniture and cabinets, mold-making and casting and have opportunities to dissect human corpses, build cars, work on movies and other video/film/perfomance projects. etc.
These things are definately still alive, though because of excess modernization they aren't as common.
I have noticed, both in myself, and in my geeky friends, a tendancy to become interested in these types of skills as we get older.
After years and years of hacking/engineering things, my bearded, long-haired frizzy Unix-Geek brethren all seem to start tinkering with more solid things. One of my friends opened a part-time bicycle repair shop. Another is rebuilding an old military Jeep. I have started taking metalworking classes.
All of us have started to spend time improving our kitchens and learning how to cook. Home-brew is becoming ubiquitous whenever we get together.
I think part of it is that we want to see more tangible results from our labor. I think we are either consciously or unconsciously sick to death of pouring our hearts and souls into intangible systems that we do not own, and seem utterly disconnected from our reward (a direct deposit into a bank account we now only access electroniclly).
To hack and tinker and scratch your head and swear and get all pissed off, and then finally have that Eureka moment is far more satisfying when the Eureka means that you can now start your classic hot-rod again and take it around the block before fixing the next problem.
Geeks like systems. We like to engineer them, tweak them, customize them, and enjoy the results of our improvements or discoveries. So there is, I believe, a natural progression into more worldly and tangible things... Like beer and food and bikes and cars and such.
I can't wait for the day when I am able to "retire" from infosec and start a small metal fabrication shop. Which is really interesting, because back in college, the mere though of such an endevor would have had me laughing my ass off.
I've seen several articles bashing 'rediscovering' older techs at unneccessary but those people are missing a key point. Some of these 'older'concepts haven't been revisited in a while and could probably be improved by a creative insight with modern techniques.
;-)
A significant portion of our technology is based off of early 1900's designs. For example, the way we generate electrical power (ie heat + water = steam >>> turns turbine > spins magnet > generates electricity) hasn't changed since it's discovery. There are some newer areas (solar cells, fuel cells) but for the most part we power 99% of our society this way.
A lot of basic technology is still very fundamental to our culture and I'm glad to see people revisiting it - it's the only way to continually shock the technology base of an advanced civilization.
These advances can come from anywhere, so what if the SCA are rebuilding medieval style armor? What if one of them comes up with a superior chainmail and merges it with Kevlar, reduces the weight and sells it to the military?
How about new designs for soap? New styles of paper? Are the old ways the best? You'll never know until you research a couple. There were tons of expirements in radio control in the early 1900's many of which were abandoned because the technology wasn't there - how many of those could be useful now?
Do the funamentals of our wireless transmitters remain the most efficient way to transmit information?
And it's fun, did I mention it's fun?
The Appropriate Technology Library contains the complete text and images from over 1,050 of the best books on all areas of village-level and do-it-yourself technologies...over 150,000 pages! In use in over 130 countries by Peace Corps Volunteers, development and relief organizations, engineers, and missionaries, the Appropriate Technology library is the most comprehensive, compact, and cost effective information resource in the world!
m v
http://www.villageearth.org/Merchant2/merchant.
'Fight Club' referred to this loss of old knowledge and how we're all dependent on industry. If all companies shut down, many would starve b/c of this lack of knowledge.
Did they say why they don't use thier own generators? Ok, I suppose they might not like being a bit dependent on the outside world (the generators in the first place, maintenece, having to buy in electrical equpiment etc) but i can't see them making thier pnumatics without some outside help either, unless of course they can make thier own pnumatics in which case they probably could make thier own generators. Perhaps they're afraid of losing the tourist money.
Tk
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
Will all this talk of which I can relate, perhaps someone can compile geek style guides of the various hobbies. I've always found that regular guides simply show you how to do things, akin to a trained monkey, where I really want to know *why*. A geek guide would address all of this. What do you think?
Funny how I'm a geek and I met my fiancee doing geeky things.
Geekishness is not a male-only or even male-dominated thing anymore.
I mean, sure, if you want to date a shallow Aberzombie&Bitch type (ooh, I'm funny =P), then get into bodybuilding and go to the bars.
Note the previous sentence does not excuse you being out of shape, because a lardass is a lardass, geek or not. =P
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
You're describing the very same thing that Leonardo da Vinci must have felt. :-)
I'm not saying that every geek has the same genius or the same capabilities but I remember that I hated being presented with a math-formula or musical cord in school without understanding it. I would get very aggressive with my teachers if they weren't able to explain - which often they weren't. Those who could - because they themselves understood - I still deeply respect for being real teachers or 'masters' if you will. This is the very same 'drive' that made me achieve a lot doing stuff one would consider 'ungeekish', namely studying a stage art before I got into full-time computing.
This is what separates the 'geek' from the 'meek', a strong uncomfort with everything he/she has or wants to deal with and doesn't fully understand. It's a deep longing for liberty and independence, imho.
I would consider my mother a geek aswell, since everything she achieved she achieved by explore-&-do-it-yourself. Curiously enough there was a time in her life when she protocoled the Nasa Apollo missions radiotalk and did technical translations (english/german) for top-secret weapons systems (Harpoon/Cruise Missile). With no actuall degree in anything technical. My dad, who was an electronics engineer, actually would ask her first if he didn't understand something.
Guess I got my geekdom from my mother.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
You can't be serious. Even my dad's 2k1 Chevy Suburban gets 21mpg highway anymore.
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
To balance this a bit, I've found myself dabbling in ancient things like camellia sinensis, kombucha, weiqi, yerba mate', archeology (especially archeoastronomy), manna, and probably some others that aren't coming to mind right now.
I'm sorry you didn't have a grammy who sewed like she was a reincarnated loom, and a grandpappy who'd only let you touch the rifle after you mended a few dozen pairs of socks and pants. It was a conspiracy, I tell you!
:-/
I can tie a slip knot and a square knot, and that's about it. It sucks.
Granted, the Ford Excursion is an extreme case, but I'm serious. I wish I were joking. Ford has stopped publishing the Excursion's estimated mpg because the EPA doesn't rate vehicles that large. That itself should tell you something.
This Ford dealer claims the 2000 model gets up to 10 mpg with a gas engine, and up to 18 mpg with a diesel engine. This review puts actual mileage at 10/14 (city/highway), but I've heard real world reports around 5/9.
You tell me how "whilst" differs from "while," and I'll stop calling you a pretentious jackass.
You might also search for the bootstrap encyclopedia...
What to do in case human kind re-start from nothing but knowledge ?
Imagine if there is no steel, no electricity, no tools, nothing but you in the wild nature with the bootstrap process in your brain.
First find food (ok), then wood (easy) and minerals (how?) and start the process with some other folks.
How many weeks for your first steel tool ?
How many months will you need to get electricity ?
How many years to get a real power plant ?
Many games ( Civ, AOE ) simulate this but who really knows enougth to complete this start from scratch ?
Is there a how-to-do-it-all-from-scratch encyclopedia ?
As as geek I often wonder if anyone else in the geekdoom tried to find it or to gather pieces of it.
Any feedback anyone ?
Your question and the number of replies show that geeks often have a hacking around spirit, creation oriented, and easily imagine themselves in an analog process I mentioned above.
Yet it seems engineering is always close to the lost art studied by the geek ( metalsmithing, sewing, making soap rather than some old kind of music, painting, poetry ). You see, your fellows aren't really hacking outside of engineering, it's an other way to exercise the same mind thinking "how to do this?" and then "yes I've made it!"
Great post of you, I'm looking for answers to my own question in the threads.
Sometimes it's just fun to do things with your hands. It's not homebrewing beer, but I once built a stereo rack and had a blast. My 'workshop' was a couple square feet on my apartment floor (I bet my neighbors downstairs were wondering what the drill press noises were) and I had some trouble, but in the end the sense of accomplishment is incomparable. Sure, I could've bought a similar rack, but to have made my own is just cooler. Once I have the space, I intend to build a desk to complement it for my computer and numerous game consoles. This time, though, I'll make sure to have a shopvac on hand--that MDF makes a lot of sawdust.
I've got a couple pictures of the finished rack here
You know, I didn't think to ask, but I think it might simply be that they are shunning electricity itself, because it is the most common source of energy in the "English" world (that's us of course). But they did say that they compress their own air. The other important detail I forgot to add before is that I don't remember just how strictly Amish that particular farm is. It is a tourist site (nobody actually lives there), so I'm guessing that it is a representation of the households that are not so strict. I shall have to go back one of these days.
Most people would rather be certain they're miserable than risk being happy. - Robert Anthony
Toilet paper rolls (or soup cans if you could get the kind that both ends can be cut out of anymore) should work fine once they're decent sized, but these aren't even an inch tall yet and something still keeps munching 'em. Also kinda hard with a row crop that you plant thick, and thin out as they grow! Hmm.. maybe some sheets of cardboard along the rows?? Tho hate to put anything with cellulose near the house -- draws ground termites in a hurry.
:)
Yep, I do eat beet greens, tho I really prefer the root part, plain or pickled. Either way, with lots of butter. Veggies are just an excuse for eating melted butter.
Fun with drunken roommates: get 'em to drink ALL the juice off a can of beets. Next morning, listen for the screams when they go to the john. [evil grin]
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
That's a really good point. I'm sure the same 'geek' personalities existed 100,000 years ago. Not having computers to play with, they spent their time doing other anti-social activities. So while the 'normal' people were gathering berries or trying to hunt with rocks, the geeks were messing around with flint or clay.
The Excursion's basically just a pickup truck with an oversized station wagon body, and is a far cry from those two-ton turds of the early 70s. The SUV didn't really exist back then, with exceptions like the old Ford Bronco and International Scout. In comparison, today's equivalent has enjoyed just as many technological updates as any car. Try comparing apples to apples and look at something like the current Ford Taurus with, say, a 1972 Torino.
I would think that accepting electricity and not accepting radio, TV, computers would be as good a cutoff point, but to each their own.
My late, lamented, (STOLEN!) 1995 F250 4x4 Supercab Diesel CONSISTENTLY gave me better than 24 mpg as a daily driver, with as high as 30 on long freeway trips. I was in the habit of keeping an eye on the fuel mileage.
I realize that's with a proper Imperial gallon, not that bastardized American one, but that's still better than 20, and a far cry from what the Excursion supposedly gets. Are you sure you haven't fucked with how far a mile is as well?
More lost arts to look into besides home-brewing beer... Check out the local health food store, that carries HERBAL products. Many herbs have been put to the wayside that are just as effective as expensive products made by big companies. For this reason they are unadvertised. They sit in the health food store, many of these herbal products forced by the government (FDA) to not label exactly what they are used for, because it may infringe on what a big company is profiting off of in the chain grocery stores. It's well worth a look. Consider it hacking the grocery store.
Yes, I think that a deeply held interest in the basic mechanisms of how things work is inherent to being a geek. Back in school you could tell which kid was going to grow up to be a geek because if you asked him what time it was, not only could he tell you the time, but he could (and would!) also explain the inner workings of his watch, discuss the theoretical physics behind our planetary time zones, and get off on a tangent about fluctuations in space-time and the potential implications. (Yeah, simple stuff now, but pretty heady for an 8th grader!)
/.ers, but Martha Stewart has created an entire industry based on glorifying the domestic arts. Sure, she makes her own yogurt, raises her own chickens for the eggs (which, BTW, are color-coordinated with the décor of her kitchen *gag*), and whips up little "projects" on her sewing machine in nothing flat. Takes "field trips" to a variety of artisans like metalsmiths and stone carvers. And gardening? Fuhgeddaboudit. She's gone beyond the standard squash & peas & carrots - she's cultivating "heirloom" tomatoes with exotic color variations and patterns on them, for chrissakes!
....Bethanie....
That said, I don't think that this interest in making/doing stuff yourself is unique JUST to geeks. This may be completely foreign territory to most
To be honest, aside from the fact that most people really don't CARE how to make stuff themselves, they just don't have TIME to do it. Are you going to come home after having worked all day for a paycheck (to pay for the hefty mortgage, the nice car, the 2-week family vacation) and spend 2 hours cooking a meal that will be consumed in 15 minutes? Or spend 10 hours sewing a garment that might cost $20 at a department store? Our time has become more valuable than the products we can hand-craft, so we buy the cheap manufactured goods and go about our lives.
It takes a deep sense of satisfaction and fulfillment, a pride in good craftsmanship, a true appreciation for things made "from scratch" to pursue these "lost arts" in today's culture. It's making things for the sake of making things and the value we place on them ourselves, unlike the "old days" when time was a less valuable commodity, and the only way to get stuff WAS to make it.
Now, to return to the original issue at hand - WHY does this seem to be more prevalent among geek set? Well, think about it: you've got a bunch of single guys with plenty of disposable income and free time on their hands (due to lack of familial responsibilities and no social life to speak of). It harkens back to the days of the great monasteries. Think about the monks hand-transcribing all those texts (a little like writing code, no?) - no families, no need for money... (no sex!) - just a bunch of time on their hands to spend their days furthering the intellectual evolution of the species. Load a guy down with a family and a mortgage, and *fwip* his available time (and money!) available for geeking out at will just dwindled considerably.
I speak, I daresay, from experience.
hence highly intelligent geeks like the challenge.
...that this idea ties in with my fondness
for music boxes. I am firmly convinced that
had the average hacker been born a hundred
years earlier they would've been clockmakers
and music box makers.
Music boxes are fun. They are genuine musical
instruments, but they are chock full of little
mechanical spinny bits. And orchestrions! It's
a little-known fact that those things are just
computers that play music. Just because the
logic is implemented using pneumatic gates doesn't
mean they aren't Turing complete.
Yeah, I must be. It's been at least seven days since the second movie's been released and I haven't seen it yet.
Yep, I sure am a Matrix junkie. Not.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
[Obviously, this won't be read by anyone because it's so late in the game...]
When I started homebrewing, I kept thinking about how it was the perfect mix of science and creativity. Understanding fermentation, isolating variables in brewing experiments, trying to achieve specific results through trial and error...these are all (valid) scientific principles.
Crafting the very beer that you want, moving away from established standards (a malty "bitter"...), pushing the limit, improving your skills, delighting your friends...those would be the artistic/creative aspects.
At least, it worked for me.
And I'm not really a hacker (at least, not as a coder) but I see a similar combination of logic and craft, science and art, knowledge and creation.
And if I want to wax poetic, I'd say something about "homebrewed computers" but this doesn't look like the right time...
Alexandre http://enkerli.wordpress.com/
What the hell are you talking about? I gave you two first-hand reports of gas mileage well under 20 mpg, and one anecdotal report of gas mileage under 10 mpg. I haven't fucked with anything. Note that I'm talking about gasoline engines here. I specifically mentioned that the Excursion reportedly gets 18 mpg with a diesel engine. The F250 is over a ton lighter than the Excursion, which might account for the better gas mileage you got.
As for your other statement, the Excursion has a curb weight of 7,725 lb., or almost four tons (and well over three tonnes). I submit that it therefore qualifies as one of your "two ton turds that [gets] 12 mpg."
You tell me how "whilst" differs from "while," and I'll stop calling you a pretentious jackass.
Belgian beer sucks.
You, sir, ought to be sentenced to drink only lukewarm piss for the rest of your life for saying that. Except you would probably enjoy it.
-Lasse
The piss would be quite refreshing after a belgian beer. It would wash the nasty taste out of my mouth.
My whole family is farmers and let me say, they are the original "survivalists". Anyone that tells you different has never stepped foot on a farm.
Along these lines, am I still the only one who will sit and watch ants build an antpile? No matter how many times I see it, I'm still in awe
...and yes, I am a geek.
Marigolds are supposed to keep out the pests. Seems to be confirmed by family members and friends of mine. I just planted my first garden over the last few days and put a border of marigolds around the whole garden plot (not a large plot). Maybe try some around the plants youre having problems with.
My blog: http://jkratz.dyndns.org/~jason/blog/
Hardly SCA materials (unless they're making ye-olde crystal meth).
Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
Don't forget...
I moved from a downtown appartment to a countryhouse a couple of years ago, and I began to feel the urge to start doing things like this: beer homebrewing,[...]
Was your house built on a Indian cemetery?
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Hear ye! Hear ye!
This chain letter was started by our saviour Jesus Christ the day he died for our sins. And you will be forever damned if you don't follow it's instructions, as it is the words of the Good Lord.
That's the idea. The Himmelsbriefen (Letters from Heaven) have been circulating since 6th century.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
As I don't have my truck around anymore, it's a little difficult for me to go out and get you the exact curb weight of it. But a little googling to ballpark it still puts it at about 6500 lbs. Your link details a 2000 truck anyway, not a 1995, and I haven't the slightest idea what differences Ford made between the two models beyond their obvious appearances. But there's no doubt that the Excursion is F-*50 HD based...just park the two side by side.
As for what you presented, all I did was to state what I got driving my own vehicle. I haven't the slightest idea how either you or the EPA drive around, but my 24 miles per proper gallon was consistent, whatever you say. And I never said you fucked with anything, outside of comments on that downsized gallon you persist in using, with tongue-in-cheek musing about possibly the same thing done to the mile.
I tend to agree with this stance too. My favorite of the old "apprenticeship/master" teachings is cooking. Soups and sauces to be specific. I have attained many part time jobs to learn more about this and worked as a systems administrator and going to college while doing so. For all the love that I have of computers there is something that seems real and honest about cooking for a living, and there is certainly and need for talent and "old world" education to do it correctly.
:)
Also on another topic, weapons and smithing to be precise. Readers should look at this page also. They are the only company that I know that still smith's authentic blades from the fuedal orient. The cut and fold techniques seem to have been lost to all but this group. That is a shame too. A set of kitchen knives smithed in this fashion would be a treasure in my mind.
because they're SCA people whom you can smell sneaking up on you. I'd be laying waste to them as they spun flax and argued about Babylon 5.
people who complain about bad modern music is seem to think the radio is the fountainhead from which all modern music flows. the radio is crap because it's owned by clearchannel, the riaa, and greedy labels like 'them'. check some independent labels like mowax, ninjatune, morr music, eighteenth street labs, quannum...
...it's for a lifetime.
ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.
Some guy, probably David Ingbretson if my memory serves me correctly, kept tabs on where Amigas showed up, for years. Some links: Hal Greenlee Interview
Astronaut speaks at Amiga Tradeshow
"And Satan and the antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, also known as the Blue Screen of Death."
I am *definitely* sure the world will end then. I mean, All those Unix servers, Amigas, some of the Macs, if people didn't fix it at Y2K, who is going to remember in such an odd year as 2038?
The UNIX 2038 C/C++ bug won't hit the Amiga before 2046.
It is really the same bug, namely the use of a signed 32 bit integer to count seconds from a starting point in time, called an epoch. UNIX counts secons from 1. January 1970, while the Amiga counts seconds from 1. January 1978. So the Amiga programs using the old C/C++ time function, will have to be recompiled.
The Amiga OS (classic) will keep time untill 7. February 2114, when it will think it's 1978.
So, if I don't get my AmigaONE by then, I might get some problems. (Besides being over 120 years old.)
Read more .
Irene KHAAAAAAN!