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NY Post Says GTA Worse Than Molesting
wiredbeat2000 writes "The New York Post has an inflammatory article which argues that Take Two's Grand Theft Auto is worse than child molestation and more harmful than second hand smoke. The story, which appears in the business section, calls for an outright ban of video games it claims are no better than snuff films, and concludes: 'Stay away from this [Take Two] stock - far, far away - and you'll be doing both your wallet and your fellow man a favor'." Lucky the author hasn't checked out Manhunt yet, huh?
Can people have atleast ONE avenue of escapism without having to be protected from it? I think that guy missed the point of videogames in general.
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
If you geeks want to be taken seriously when you (for example) complain about electronic voting, or argue for the benefits of free software, you'll have to get rid of the violent video games.
The adult world will not take you seriously until you do.
Anything worth doing is worth doing badly -- G.K. Chesterton
Whew! Thank goodness that's still OK.
This is America, damnit. Speak Spanish!
I already responded to the author... I can't wait to see if I get a reponse... By the way, nice headline. I totally forgot in my response to rag him for that ridiculous comparison between GTA and WackoJacko.
I am Jack's Savage Beats.
IANAL, but doesn't this just beg Rockstar to sue? I mean they even knock their shares.
If you don't like the game, don't play it. But there's far worse behaviour in the Bible than in GTA. To each their own.
But..but...
Why didn't Sega catch all this heat years ago over Michael Jackson's Moonwalker game?
Now, all we need is for this guy to say SCO is an terrible buy and to stay away from it for moral reasons, we'd be all set. The people with incredible ethics should be pursuaded to help those who just have targeted ethics or common enemies.
Now, where is that last hidden package?...
IMarv
Trusting software vendors is no smarter than trus
calls for an outright ban of video games it claims are no better than snuff films,
So now we're going to take orders from the NY Times? "Oh, dear Times.. do tell us what video games YOU claim we need to ban?".
Also, um... snuff films are more or less considered an urban legend. Aside from (possibly) the Faces of Death series, there are no substantially proven legitimate snuff films.
I would be more concerned if my child was watching the WWF/WWE, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, Sex in the City, Judging Amy, Real World, Road Rules, most award shows or any of the mind numbing cartoons on the disney channel.
if you dont like the article, one can always send a carefully worded editorial saying that thousands (millions?) of people play GTA and other violent games without going berzerk or feeling mentally tortured. Remember to point out that M rating on such games and what that M means. Provide comparison of M with the E and T and other ratings, and give examples of popular games carrying those ratings.
if you do a decent job, they (the nypost) may publish your reply along with other responses. I recommend keeping a reply short and to the point, and, more than anything else, do _not_ ramble.
The "adult world" has never heard of databases, or word processing, or the Internet, they judge "us" (as if we were a single entity) based on one company's artistic expression. Sorry, but the connection you're making has very little base in reality. How is it that video games shouldn't be afforded the same free speech protections as literature? If books are supposedly so much more immersive and stimulating to the imagination, surely books about murder would have more impact than a stupid game, right?
Don't waste your time with videogames. I've seen handguns go for $500 and less. The youth is MUCH more concerned about dancing pixels than the reality outside. Cut your hair, buy a handgun, and welcome to the real world!
Get paid to code OSS
Grand Theft Auto is worse than child molestation
Twenty bucks says this opinionist is a moonlighting catholic priest.
Is anyone else worried that this article elevates the acceptability of having sex with a child just so they can express their distaste towards a video game?
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
Why should I go out and get a handgun when I own two rifles? ...and for the record, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than those two rifles have.
.
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
To anyone who has played the frankly pretty harmless GTA games this reads far more like "Child molesting; its far more socially cool than that nerdy computer games stuff". This is one seriously wacked out writer.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
'Stay away from this [Take Two] stock - far, far away - and you'll be doing both your wallet and your fellow man a favor'.
so am i to believe that there are people turning to the new york post for stock advice now? the future's pretty interesting.
"We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
View this article if you must, but it's become all too common for everyone to write articles intended to piss off a great subset of people online in order to drive hits to their site. Please do not reward this silliness--remember to use proxomitron, junkbuster, whatever your favorite tool is for depriving these folks of the fruit of their agitations.
Does anyone else get the feeling that the authors of all of these anti-GTA articles haven't actually played the game?
Ok, it is violent and often that violence is directed towards innocent people, but, violence towards innocent people is not the main point of the game. I mean, you can kill police or civilians but there are consequences. And the whole thing about the Haitians has nothing to do with innocent people from Haiti. You're in the middle of a gang war between the Cuban and the Haitians.
I guess the real problem I have is that people seem to thing that by censoring the game that we'll get rid of violence between racial groups, etc. It's like saying movies that depict racially motivated violence should be censored. Our country will be in a sad state if that ever happens.
I think part of the point of showing these kind of things is that we remember that they do happen. If we pretend there is no racism it won't go away, just get worse.
I know, I'm preaching to the choir.
This isn't news. It's a piece of opinion from some guy at the NY Post. People read the Post to get riled up and nothing more.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, will not hate it.
Since the 'letters to the editor' form requires you to be in the US, I can't send a message myself. But I'm wondering if we have enough /. people here who are in a position to do so to get this moron called Christopher Byron fired?
I'd suggest that suggesting that "This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy" about a perfectly legitimate product owned and enjoyed by several million of their readers is tantamount to advocacy of child molestation, surely? At the very least its definitely saying that people who own it should be regarded as worse than paedophiles.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
I admire the spirit of your troll, but you need to develop it with some arguments instead of mere assertions. The arguments will, of course, by fallacious, but if you make them long enough, then many people won't be able to spot the errors.
-- $SIGNATURE
Here in Canada there was a court case finding that kiddie porn art (i.e. no kids were harmed, these were drawings and paintings) were found to be illegal and so the same laws applied to these paintings.
Taking this one step further like the author suggests, I can envision some wacky japanese game where you get to play a sexual predator. The goal of the game is to prey on women and neighbourhood children. Getting extra points for doing things like luring kids with candy or the promise of toys, and performing date rapes on unsuspecting college girls.
I'm pretty sure a game like the one I described above would not be allowed to be sold in Canada. The majority of society would disapprove of this type of video game. I, myself find it very disturbing.
I guess the bigger question is why, as a society, do we allow the simulation of illegal/immoral actions video games and not others.? Where is the line (so to speak) and why do we draw it where it is? What is the nature of the video gaming that makes some of these things appropriate? Is escapism an appropriate defence for sim murder but not for sim molestation? And if so, why not?
This will become even more important with the next generation of systems that will allow for more realistic everything, including AI.
So I've played philosopher for today. Maybe not very well. But tehre are a lot of good questions out there about this sort of stuff. GTA is only getting the pain right now because it's the game that is currently pushing the envelope...
Isn't the New York Post a Newscorp product these days? Owned by Rupert Murdoch, and part of the same conglomerate that brought us:
Fear Factor
Temptation Island
Freddy Got Fingered
Aliens Vs. Predator (the game)
etc.?
Come to think of it, I wonder if this is in any way, shape or form connected with the fact that this company is also responsible (certainly in license at least) for Simpsons Hit 'n' Run, a game that steals so much from GTA that its a wonder that Take Two haven't sued?
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
My response...
I am a 28 year old adult male who happens to play video games. I'm not going to bother with an introductory, and I'm going to get right into it.
To quote the article, "People, this is insane. This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy"
Insane? You're calling playing a video game, something that isn't real and is meant for a mature audience 10,000 times worse than MOLESTING A YOUNG BOY *not* Insane?
Have your head checked. There almost isn't a crime worse than taking advantage of a minor in a sexual fashion. It's beneath human behaviour.
The author argues that there is a ratings system that is unenforcable and means nothing, and is irrelevant.
The ratings system in Video Games is virtually identical to movies. Movies are rating G, PG, AA, R and X/NC17. Games are rated as E(veryone), T(een), M(ature) and A(dult). There is a fifth category who's acronymn I am not aware of, but the category is for the very young, toddler aged, and educational. Adult is reserved for anything containing sexually explicit content, similar to NC17. Mature is the equivalent if AA. T equates to PG, and E is the gaming G.
If a parent buys a child who is under the age of majority, and the game is rated M for mature, how is that the gaming companies fault? The parent should be made aware of the ratings system. Every game box sold in Canada and the US has the rating printed in large black and white letters right on the front of the box, including what the ratings mean. It's as ludicrous as a person suing Take Two, Sony, Rockstar for 244.5 million dollars because their kid took a loaded gun from their house and shot at a highway, killing someone, then blaming Grand Theft Auto. The game is not responsible here. How did the child get the gun? Why was it loaded? Why wasn't it in a locked case out of the reach of children? Why weren't the kids taught by the parents that shooting at a vehicle is not a particularly good idea?
If video games had this much of an influence on the youth of today, I should be a homicidal maniac. I've played video games since the days of the Atari 2600, and have seen just about everything there is to see in a video game. I've dumped enough quarters into arcade games that I should be able to spit fireballs from my hands while screaming death phrases at the tops of my lungs, because that's what video games teach you to do.
Oh, but Vice City is "realistic," you say. Realistic huh? So if I look in one direction, see 3 cars driving down the street, then turn around 180 degrees, see 3 more cars, and then turn around again and those original 3 cars have disappeared (which is what happens in the game), that's real, is it?
I can take a car and drive at approximately 2 mph, hit a hydro pole and send it crashing to the ground, because that's real is it?
I can walk down the street and find a surface-to-air missile launcher lying in someones back yard? Great! Sign me up to live in that neighbourhood!
Oh, but Vice City "looks" realistic, you say. Why? Just because the characters portrayed in it are not cartoonish? I can tell that they are digital representations of people. They don't look like real people to me. For one thing, people have fingers. That actually separate. And bend. And can be used to pick things up.
Video games are NOT REAL. They are fictional. Imaginative. Fun to play.
Michael Jackson has been charged with child molestation. That is real. If proven, that is morally disgusting.
Shooting cars on highways is real. That is a real case currently in the US legal system.
The bottom line: It is because of drivel like this article that I have cancelled my subscription to your newspaper.
Good day.
That guy who plays Emil Skoda on Law & Order would not be impressed with you understanding of not being a lawyer.
Rockstar can have a press release, or they can simply put him in the next game, slightly altering his name, and giving him Bill Paxton's groveling speech from True Lies just before you have to kill him.
That editorial was beyond awesome. My favorite part:
"This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy"
If my math works right, with sales exceeding 25,000,000 copies, he would prefer if there were 25 million fewer GTA players and 250 billion more child molestors.
Alternatively, he would find someone turning off their PS2 and molesting a neighborhood kid to be an improvement.
I think we can guess this guy's real agenda (hehe).
"This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy"
Well, if the Catholic Church thinks it's ok...
" - or than any lie the feds think Martha Stewart ever told them, "
I don't feel like Martha is exactly the worst perpetrator of this sort of crime out there. She's just famous, publicly hated, and a woman. Burn her!
"or any line in any song that Bruce Springsteen ever sang that rankled a cop in the Meadowlands."
Yeah, but that was A-OK when Bruce did it. Cops are jackasses. Rile as much as you like.
According to this list, I can't really even tell that he hates GTA that badly.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Dwarf-throwing is illegal?! Did I miss a meeting?
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
"forty cents in New York City
fifty cents elsewhere
It makes no goddamn sense at all"
Parent deserves +5 Funny just for asking if that post could have +5 Informative.
What would it take to convince other papers to use the headline:
NY Post Advocates Child Molestation Instead Of Video Games
"Here's a letter to the NY Post. The worst piece of paper on the east coast. Matter of fact the whole states. 40 cents in NY City, 50 cents elsewhere, and makes no goddamn sense at all. America's oldest continuously published daily piece of bullshit."
Nuff said.
Perhaps newspapers should also be banned?
Probably, just mad because he can't trade in his "Thiller", "Bad", and "Dangerous" CDs for the GTA double pack.
Political correctness is the newest form of slavery.
This is much like the outspoken anti-porn feminists of the 1970's, who were very angry, and agressively anti-porn, all without ever having seen one. They based their opinions on the cliched rhetoric of the time, which said that porn was degrading to women, violent, etc etc.
Some of these women changed their tune after actually watching some porn and seeing with their own eyes how truly banal and even laughable these movies were(are). For the most part, it's just sex with lousy acting.
Only when the next big scapegoat emerges will these anti-video game buffoons shut up (and move on to complaining about something else). Frankly, I don't understand how someone can say GTA is harmful, when frankly I find movies like "Reservoir Dogs" way more desturbing to watch.
"... I fuckin' love fuckin' playin' GTA, and I fuckin' love fuckin' killin' babies.
Yee--Haw! Gotta go start me a house-fire!!"
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
While I wouldn't go as far as the article's author has, have you ever noticed the following [may be American culture specific]:
Did anyone else get the big Victoria's Secret ad on the side of the article when they read it? You know the one with the model wearing next to nothing. The kind of thing that was classified as pornography not that long a go.
Interesting that they would be so concerned when individuals choose to expose themselves to a game, but they would force everyone's (well, the few people that actually read their pages) exposure to risque pictures of scantly clad models without warning. Glad to know someone else is busy trying to decide what is good for us.
I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have an article bashing Victoria's Secret ads a few years back, but now that they are paying the advertising budget they need to find a new target. Maybe Take-Two should just put an ad on the NY Post site. Isn't this sort of thing extortion (buy an ad from us or we will give you a bad review?)
I quit listening to other people's opinions a long time ago.
"Anything is possible with enough programmers, time and pizza." (Substitute caffeine for time as needed.)
"Do not attack your enemy but attack your enemy's plan."
It is best to launch a campaign which ignores this journalist and buries his words in dust than to spread word of him.
I wonder if he even knew about Manhunt... which IS a game based around a Snuff film????? Maybe manhunt 2 will have HIM killed in the begining?
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
For those who dont know, the NY Post is little more than a regonal Tabloid, they have no honest reporting anywhere in the paper and very often copy other peoples articles from other papers with a yellow journalistic slant. NO one around here honestly takes them seriously, which is exactly how we should take this peice of garbage
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
This guy needs a "one on one" meeting with Tommy Vercetti.
http://www.tomandemily.com
What kind of idiot would make a serious comparison between molestation and videogames. Oh, wait Christopher Byron, yup that explains it; pretentious snot. No, really, that article isn't a completely immature rant. Let's look at it's merits. He refers to people as dad, and makes presumptions about the values of a particular family. Yet another fine example of journalism with integrity.
(Sponsored by cheeseSource for President 2012)
You can kill a cop, steal his gun, and then use it to shoot someone else. Or you can pick up a prostitute and have sex with her in the back of your stolen car, then beat her to death - or shoot her, bludgeon her, whatever you want.
He's right - you CAN do that. You know what? You can do that in real life too!
Someone should tell the cops - oh and stop investing in condom and gun companies.
Thanks for the heads-up.
Look at all the ads near his article. Write to those advertisers about how they appear next to an article that as part of it's hyperbole diminishes the horror that is child molestation. Tell them that you find implication unecessarily cruel to the people who least deserve it, and that it would be laughably specious were that child molestation simply isn't funny. Convey to the advertisers how you understand that their association was as much chance as it was an attempt to reach a certain demographic. But, that you have to wonder if there aren't other avenues they might advertise in that won't take chances with their corporate image by inexplicably associating them with child molestation. That while they're not peronally responsable for the content, one must wonder if everytime a customer, such as yourself, is confronted with their goods, services, or even promotions, if they'd relish reminding that person of the article, the viceral anger, and queasy stomach that comes with it. Their intention or not, that's what their money bought them. As a parting shot you might also offer that the demographic they reach will be getting smaller, because you'll be getting yours from better places.
Write one letter, change the opening and perhaps closing paragraphs for each advertiser and personally sign each one. That could make a substantial impression.
Reading the New York Post is worse than playing GTA.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acqui
I would rather be shot then molested by Michael Jackson.
...to people too lazy to think for themselves.
"This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy - or than any lie the feds think Martha Stewart ever told them, or any line in any song that Bruce Springsteen ever sang that rankled a cop in the Meadowlands."
What an interesting combination. (Alleged) molestation of a child, investment fraud, and free speech.
Asanine statements like that is why if we start banning anything, it should be self made pundits. Worse than child molestation? Does this guy know any victims? Knows what can happen to someone after something like that?
"FOR one thing, the age cutoff is totally unenforceable, and everyone knows it."
BULL. It's called PARENTING, you moron. If I was 12 and my mom had seen me playing a game like GTA, my Playstation would be on the street the next day.
"By what preposterous reasoning can one argue that once someone turns 17 years of age it magically becomes OK to glorify mass murder?"
I dunno. I guess the same reasoning we use to send 18 year olds off to a desert to kill people.
I did a little research on this guy, and he has several non-fiction books under his belt with the same hellfire-and-brimstone invective. They also didn't cause so much as a blip on the cultural radar. Yet in an interview at Salon.com, he has the gall to say, in response to asking why he had no problem with saying in his column that Martha Stewart had a nice ass, "One of the things I try to do in these columns that I write -- I consider this as kind of a personal mission -- is to try to purge our language of political correctness. It just stultifies. Isn't that what provocative, memorable language does? It forces back the frontiers of expression."
So this guy sees his newspaper column as the beacon of a lingual crusade? I think what we're dealing with here is delusions of granduer, which goes partway towards explaining his vehemence about GTA: Vice City. (But I will not pick apart what he wrote about the game, not for a Bill O'Reilly nutball of the print world.) That, and the fact that he's no spring chicken or versed in videogames, otherwise he couldn't claim the game's visuals were almost photorealistic.
Bah. Don't grace this hack with an e-mail.
--
Evan "I hate being around smokers for asthetic reasons"
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Stay away from New York Post, or the author - far, far away - and you'll be doing both your wallet and your fellow man a favor.
Nevermind that our non-elected, paid his way into the presidency, dipshit of a leader sends 1000's to their deaths so he can keep control of the worlds oil. Yeah, way to use your voice NYT's reporter. Report on the stuff that really matters, good job. Jackass
In the name of protecting women from degrading images, they have banned lesbian porn repeatedly.
Canadian courts need to recognize that free speech means that things you don't like might be said, and that's OK.
Before anyone gets excited about a USian attacking Canada, the U.S. isn't doing any better, and that bugs me, too.
Full Disclosure: I used to work (volunteer) on a magazine who had issues banned by Canada. Thank Gloria Steinem for keeping Canada free from the filth I spew.
I forget what 8 was for.
So, on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 means no integrity at all, and 10 means the news media with the most integrity, where would the NYP, /., and the, oh, Weekly World News be?
When I read this article I envision a fat, bald 40-something white male living in his mom's basement sitting at a typewriter wearing no pants. Not sure why, but I do.
Quote from the article
"You can kill a cop, steal his gun, and then use it to shoot someone else. Or you can pick up a prostitute and have sex with her in the back of your stolen car, then beat her to death - or shoot her, bludgeon her, whatever you want."
Is it just me or did the author spend just a little to much time actually trying this out for himself? I can see it now as he does this over and over for hours in his mom's basement wearing no pants... droning on about how wrong it is.
the new york post is a rag anyway
SNL's Weekend Update has more integrity than the NYP...
Clear enough for you?
Put down your gamepads and go molest the author's young daughter.
funny how grand theft auto is really nothing but an interactive version of Scarface (which Vice City makes nearly a literal translation) -- yet scorcese is a visionary while the video game needs to be banned. cute hypocracy.
at lest this guy isn't calling for a ban on violent content in video games. oh wait... no... he essentially is by calling the rating system 'unenforceable' (no more unenforceable than the MPAAs rating system) and by suggesting the legitimacy of spurious game-blame lawsuits (suits that contend games make people killers)
the silver lining is that the medium is still gaining momentum. i just hope it sticks to its guns and lets developers make whatever they want, and lets the gamers decide what gets supported with their money.
american media industries that -have- stuck to their guns:
literature, painting, rock music, sculpture, film
american media industries that haven't stuck to their guns:
roleplaying games, comic books, cartoons
one set of these media is heralded as art, as 'legitimate'. individual works are judged on merit and the media itself carries no preconceived notions of 'allowable' or 'appropriate' content.
the other set of these media is heralded as fit only for children. why? because of self-censorship of content.
TSR took 'offensive' material out of D&D. ensuring that under no circumstances would anything other than cartoony child-safe good and evil be depicted. similarly with comic books and cartoons.
these industries willfully decided that only child-safe content should be created in their styles and media. so now their content is wholly marginalized and looked down upon based solely on its media.
consider japanese anime and their comics. sure, we make jokes about tentacle pron but they are not regarded derisively as child's materials in japan. they are individually judged on content, not with a blanket assumption based on its media.
why? because their industry -didn't- decide that tentacle pron was inappropriate for comics, or nudity and demons inappropriate for roleplaying games.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
Slashdot = 4 (mostly due to double posts)
Weekly World News = 3
"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
Shall we also ban violent movies and books? Oh wait -- there's that First Amendment.
Mod me how you want, but I agree w/ the author to an extent - these type of games can act as a desensitization (that a word? ;)) of violence and its reprocussions (or lack thereof in this situation ;)).
I'm not sure what the secret to success is, but the secret to failure lies in trying to please everyone -Bill Cosby
Just before christmas I saw ads for the 11:00 news. Basic premise:
::)
"This video game lets you tie up and shoot prostitutes and is ultra violent. Games have gone too far"
And the kicker that had me chuckling for a good 5minutes, all the footage they showed was from Duke Nukem 3D with those pixelated strippers.
People will continue to get uppity about video games just like they get uppity about some books. These are the same people that don't think evolution happened, science is a joke, and then argue using scientific data that God created the world.
Nothing more than idiots being idiots, move along
-- taking over the world, we are.
i hate to get up on teh soap box, but just in case you weren't just playing devils advocate (or slashdot troll)...
here in america we have this thing called 'free speech' and a 'free market'. if protected free speech is found 'inappropriate' by most the 'free market' - people don't buy it and it goes away.
we don't need laws to keep a sexual predator sim off the store shelves - we leave that up to distributors and consumers. if businesses don't want it on the shelf, and consumers don't want to buy it - it quickly disappears - if it ever got published in the first place. if it only exists in someone's private space - then why should I care if no person or animal is harmed?
Canada is starting down the slippery slope of defining 'appropriate'ness of free speech. and once that truly happens then it won't be long before it all goes.
after all, if child molestation and rape depictions aren't protected, then why should murder be protected? and what about fistfighting or war? you can't have a willing recipient of an assault rifle after all. what about obscure sexual fetishes that violate current canadian law? (think scat, beastiality, probably even things such a multipartner and oral/anal if its anything like most archaic US state laws)... then you'll lose unnecessarily harsh or ill-timed criticisms (of government, citizens, religion), etc, etc...
furthermore, there is nothing in art today that hasn't be created before. human civilization hasn't fallen apart for depicting nudity, sex, murder, rape, or even child molestation in art or literature in the 4000 years of recorded history. (rape was a core concept in the original tale of Sleeping Beauty & child abduction and molestation was the prominent event in the myth of Zeus and Ganymede)
Don't get me wrong, I loathe and despise child molesters and rapists, and the people who would create content to promote or condone such acts.
But much as I hate them, I feel strongly enough about our rights to free speech that I would vote to support their rights to say, write, and draw anything they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone. I wouldn't go into a store that sold that kind of product, and I wouldn't associate with anyone who purchased it -- but I'm smart enough to realize that the individuals in society are mature enough to decide these things for themselves.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
I started to send him a reply to his flame fest, but I'd like to think that even at my worst, I can still be better than him.
He has to understand that video games are entering the mainstream and such provincial views of them will not be accepted.
SpaceCowboy
1) Kidnap the author
2) Molest him
3) Then force him to play GTA
4) Then ask him if he still thinks GTA is worse!
I will now stop playing GTA and go molest a child. Apparently you would prefer that I did.
From,
A Concerned Ex-Gamer
How long until I expect a response?
1.-If I were an inversionist and I had the money to buy stocks from any software company I would buy them from a company that is is in the charts top 10 and has the better sales. I wouldnt be in the least interested what their games were about or if they "offended" someone. Its an investment not a statement of what my tastes on gaming or entertainment are about.
2.-For every article like this theres at least 1000 teens (and adults) who would buy the game just to see "if its as bad as they say" so this article actually helps take 2 make more money and pretty much contradicts itself.
3.-They edited out the last part of the article
"Yes also If you are interested in movies dont invest in a director called "francis ford..." something and some writer named Mario Puzzo, they once made a movie about gangsters portrayed as anti-heros that kill each other and break the laws of god and men, is terrible offensive to italians and latin americans it was called the "mobfather" or something. Boy! that will never take off!".
4.-Haitians? The game treats quite offensevely haitians, mexicans , cubans,latin americans in general, italians, redneck americans, americams gang members, police officers, prostitutes, club owners, auto club owners, construction managers, movie producers, women in general, car drivers, retirement homes, pet shops and least but not least game designers,players and developers. If you are trying to bash a game about being offensive you should at least play it to see who is "offensive" to and in this case that will be: anyone, including themselves.
5.- "everything will look incredibly and shockingly real, with blood spewing everywhere."
Er, let me see you saw the xbox, the PC or the CRAY version because in the one I have blood doesnt look real at all. unless you live in a separate universe where heads and limbs magically disapear and giant red triangles pop out instead
6.- I think as a safety measure we should get a court order for this guy so he wont be allowed a 100 ft near any game above the E rating. He most probably will have a heart attack and or kill himself if he knew there are games far worst than GTA out there (Manhunt, Doom 3).
I would go into a lengthy discussion about how your article was insulting, aggrivating, and how it just plain missed the mark, but I'm sure you've received enough emails already. Instead I am going to write my local legislative body and urge them to make R rated movies extend to the age of 40 in case we have any more beltway snipers among us. Better safe than sorry, right? Right?
The Author of the Article goes into Great Depth on what you can do in the game.
For Example:
"You can pursue your goal by killing Haitians, of course, but you can also kill anyone (or everyone) else. You can machine-gun them, beat them with baseball bats, chop them up with machetes or run them over with stolen cars.
And when you do, everything will look incredibly and shockingly real, with blood spewing everywhere.
You can kill a cop, steal his gun, and then use it to shoot someone else. Or you can pick up a prostitute and have sex with her in the back of your stolen car, then beat her to death - or shoot her, bludgeon her, whatever you want."
Dolemite
______________________
Save the World! Use a Quote!
Fascism these days is only going to be beaten by showing the anti-fascists the money.
To me games are about having fun. Subject matter is in context and can not be viewed out of context very well at all. That said, I think that if many sexual predators played rape games, they might not need to rape: they might expunge the need to do so from their systems, if it was realistic enough, and that might spare the children and women plagued by these misfits and miscreants!!
You may find fewer crimes in general as a result. Especially if it's a good game, then everyone's playing it anyway and they aren't out doing crimes. They are stuck to the game, attached to the game pads, twitching! So then everyone wins.
With regards to Christopher Byron's article "Give Back Take-Two" (December 29, 2003):
It is interesting that Mr. Byron rants about how Grand Theft Auto: Vice City causes crime, while at the same time mentioning that it has sold over five million copies to date. Has the media somehow missed those five million real-life cases of murder, assault, theft, and so forth that have been directly caused by this game? Furthermore, I bought one of those five million copies; have I become a criminal without my own knowledge?
Mr. Byron's allegation that the "Mature" rating for this game is arbitrary misses the point: Children, in general, are less able to distinguish fantasy from reality than adults. The fact that GTA: VC is a work of fantasy is also why Mr. Byron's claim that the game is worse than Michael Jackson's alleged crimes is completely absurd. He might as well say that it's better to rape a woman in a dark alley than to watch The Godfather, an argument which basically uses the same amount of logic.
In conclusion, Mr. Byron should just do what he's paid to do--report business news--and stop his off-base moralizing.
Totally. This is like the third or fourth "article" on slashdot in the last 6 months or so that's been based upon someone mistaking the NY Post for a "newspaper" and not a dead fish wrapping device. Could we PLEASE get a feature added to slashcode that automatically rejects any submission with a link to nypost.com in it? And calls the submitter names?
This articles lacks a little bit of perspective, relating GTA3 to child pornography, cock fighting and dwarf throwing. You can "You can kill a cop, steal his gun, and then use it to shoot someone else" and "whatever you want." but you will soon find the consequences are a few stars and a lot of police chasing you... obviously things go on that people dont see - the odd roller skater knocked down on the street, a few cars trashed etc... but its not the end of the world. And its retailers responsibility to not sell to over 18s, and if a few nutters in the USA get a car or some guns and do some bad things and happen to like GTA3 or CS or whatever does that mean it is the games fault? I dont remember any snipers doing the rounds in the UK, but thats down to gun laws not that these games arent available. This is a lazy journalist covering old ground, get ready to buy some cheap stocks.
From the article:
"Besides: By what preposterous reasoning can one argue that once someone turns 17 years of age it magically becomes OK to glorify mass murder? Are we saying that it would have been OK for that Beltway Sniper guy - who was apparently in his 40s - to have been allowed to play 'Grand Theft Auto' before going on his killing spree, but it wouldn't have been OK for that young teenager who went along with him to have done the same?"
So the author is proposing a moral quandry that has no basis in reality. Would I have allowed the guy to play the game before he went on a shooting spree, maybe, but how the hell would I know ahead of time he was going on a shooting spree!? If the author has the power to predict crimes he should tell us now who the next mass murderer will be and I promise I'll support taking that person's games away from them.
His strange use of age limits is confusing. He attacks the 17 year old age cutoff as meaningless. In that case it should be ok with him to have sex with people under 16 years of age, let people under 21 drink, and kids under 18 should be allowed to kill/be killed in the military. Funny, he doesn't seem to be bothered by the thought of 18 year olds being trained with real weapons to kill. Either he is against all age limit rules or for them all, pick one buddy.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I thought you would like to know: the NASDAQ:TTWO
... "guy" predicted, so much for financial advice...
are going UP TTWO
Not down as this
GTA is worse than kids sexual molestation?
makes you wonder if the guy is in the AMBLA?
*BTW: is very possible the so called "artist" who sued Rockstar and the 2 gungans who shot at cars (blaiming a videogame) will both lose their cases.
Meanwhile GTA:double pack is selling like pancakes on the xbox.
So, if you selectively remove sentences, you get this: New York-based Take-Two Interactive is a Nasdaq-traded company in the video game business. Over the last couple of years, the company has been one of Wall Street's hottest stocks, climbing by more than 500 percent to a high of nearly $42 per share earlier this year. The latest installment in the company's best-selling "Grand Theft Auto" series - "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" - has been on the market for a little over a year now and has already sold more than 5 million copies. In fact, "whatever you want" is what the game is all about. Thanks to its artful and complex programming and its incredibly realistic graphics, the game creates the impression of being inside a totally unscripted, live-action drama in which you can manufacture your mayhem as you go along. Next year the company will even be introducing a Gameboy version of the thing, so that kids can carry it around with them wherever they go. There... by selective vision, I've turned his invective into a review that would sell the &%*# out of that Take-Two stock.
Voodoo Girl is the bomb!
hehehe Dead fish wrapper... I always though it was best for a bird and small animal cage liner... then again RIAA lawsuit letters are good for that too
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
I still don't think that the author should be able to continue to rape kids. That was the point he was tring to make right?
This is the same paper that has Phil Mushnick on the payroll. For clarity, Mushnick is an idiot that writes similiar articles that this particular idiot wrote about Vice City, but mainly attacking Vince McMahon and WWE.
"Take Two's Grand Theft Auto is worse than child molestation and more harmful than second hand smoke."
How do they all compare to NYT's abuse of privacy with their "yadda yadda yadda" policy? After all, do they have anything in place to keep children from registering with their site and allowing who know what to track their movements on the web?
When we live in a society whose media is controlled by corporate conglomerates, we need always ask ourselves about the possible ulterior motives of reporters and commentaters.
I can already see the article on Fark.com.
"U.S. withdraws diplomats from foreign nations, sends new diplomats with guns to the Taiwan Straight. France surrenders."
Well, Mr. Byron, it is nice to know that there are still people in this world that are still pushing for things like cenership, child molestation, and the banning of all thing make believe. Keep up the good work! But as for me, I will stick to things like freedom, people who beieve that child molestation is bad, and people who can actually make a distinction between reality and make beleive. You see, your little article in the New York Post (online) is rediculous in many ways, but the most glaring, and I must say stupid, thing that you put in your article was that little quip about how playing GTA:Vice City is 10,000 times worse than molesting children. You must have been asleep when you wrote that! I can't possible believe that anyone, and I mean ANYONE, would think that child molestation is better in any way than playing video game, regardless of the game. I can understand you not liking the game, or even thinking it bad and evil and not allowing your children (if you have children, that is) to play the game, but to blatently dive off the deep end into a pool with no water by saying you would rather people molest children! That is deffinitly not understandable. I think that mabey you need to take a closer look at the things you are trying to write about before you go and just blow off steam. I would be willing to bet you haven't played the game, and if you have, than for no more that a few hours at most. But yet you probably go to the movies and watch shows that glorify the same disregard for the law, unnecessary cruelty, car thefts, killings, blood, and all the other things that you mentioned that make this game bad, but yet you praise them. Why don't you also crusade to ban the local news since isn't that pretty much all they show on there also? I don't care that you don't like Take-Two Interactive, or that you don't like the game, or that you think it is too violent (even for consenting adults), or that you want to tell people that you don't like it. All of that is fine and dandy, since you do have the right to speak your mind (for the time being, anyway) and champion any cause you feel worthy. But I do not like people accusing others of being worse than a child molester based only on the fact that they play or have played a particular game. And as a final note, I think you should let people make decisions for themselves what they want to play, or watch, or do. That is what freedom is: The ability to choose for myself based on accountability and consequenses. Not for you to choose for me. Good day, SlaveDawg
Just look up "Mike Diana".
"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
"This whole age-cutoff thing is simply garbage - just like "Grand Theft Auto" itself - and sooner or later, I would imagine, we'll come to our senses and ban these games from public commerce, just like we ban child pornography and entertainment spectacles such as cock fighting and dwarf throwing. "
Haaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha. Dwarf throwing! wipe me dry!
In unrealted news, Peter Jackson the creator of the Lord of the Rings films was arrested today at JFK international airport on charges of "wanton dwarf throwing" A spokes-dwarf said to press at the scene "Never toss a dwarf, god I wish he hadn't told the elf!".
-- If you think my attitude stinks, you should smell my fingers.
... they would be out of business....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
There is no evidence to support this theory that playing games reinforces any behaviour. Like the other AC that replied to this, I will point out that games are used by many for a distraction from the norm. What video games are becoming, with strict standardizations, is a collective reinforcement of the norm.
If you suggest that Vice City ought to be shut down because it offends or because the content portrays criminal behaviour, or because of some out of context racial misunderstanding, then you have missed the point entirely.
Games are not held to normal moral standards and they should not be, because they are not real events. Law should be made to enforce total freedom of video game making, as a hope that it will be a void we can shed our evil into.
Society is about going to work, paying bills, feeding the kids, taking care of our own and the ones we love. That is society. Crime is what deteriorates society. If the video games give someone a break from society so they don't feel like they have to go on a real rampage, what's the problem with that? Let the video games be anarchy and let us have good wholesome laws in the land.
We have a chance to really try anarchy in a medium, without consequence, so why hold back? It's either that or we can try it on Earth!
Make a video game where a teen can date. Give them pointers on it, and show them what it feels like to have sex. Let them play that game every fucking day until they are old enough to know how to be responsible sexually. Think about it! They wouldn't have to find out about pregnancy by bringing an unwanted baby into the world. They wouldn't have to find out the hard way by getting AIDS (unless someone who had it used the controller).
How many crimes occur based on the normal person saying "WHAT IF?". "What would it be like to rob someone?" So they do it in RL. "What would it be like to rape someone?" So they do it in real life. "What would it be like to kill someone?"
The video games show them what it's like, a little. But most video games are for entertainment, so the person playing the game is supposed to realize that the crimes committed are not really the way it would happen. There are so many senses left out of the loop, like smell and emotions and true fear. These things occur in real life and they are why many people who commit these crimes are ashamed they did them, and would not do them again.
Habitual criminals will be habitual criminals no matter what they do. Normal people sometimes become twisted into the wrong side of the law, and good video games could prevent these kinds of tragedies.
Do you think the video games have lowered or increased the number of murders? Have they had an impact at all?
I could point out around 10 Major things that this flaming moron has got completely wrong - but none of them sum up to the MAIN Point he completely failed to recognise. Drum Roll Please!
/. MJ Article ;)
;)
GAMING IS VIRTUAL!!! Shooting someone in a game will not injure someone in real life! I fail to see how robbing a car virtually is _WORSE_ than dying from lung cancer from smoke intake or being sexually abused in the real world (Not that I believe any of the absolute rubbish the media is spurting out about MJ - but ill save that rant for the
On his point about GTA being linked to multiple incidents with teens - Id be most interested to get these kids to an IQ Test and CAT Scan. I have a certain affinity and gift with computers and as such have been programming and playing games on them consistently since I was 7. I played my first MA Game when I was 8 or so - not because my parents are irresponsible - because I was mature enough at that age to handle such content. As of right now - I am 15 - played literally 100's of MA Games - including the afforementioned series - and NEVER Felt the urge to go on a drive-by shooting or reproduce any of the scenes I have "Virtually" experienced.
TO finish off, I am not even a fan of the series - I only ever enjoyed GTA 1 - the rest weren't my style. I am open to criticism with these games but when some moron just has a random rant and spurts such ridiculous garbage it really pisses me off.
I just wish he could write an article on Soldier of Fortune 2 for my amusement
cbyron@nypost.com
"don't you think your article was a tad
it's offensive to you. don't play it. you think it's bad for kids. so keep your kids away from it. don't tell me how to parent. MY kids will know the difference between right and wrong, fantasy and reality. maybe if you'd tought your kids the same, you wouldn't be so worried.
the game is a simple power fantasy indulgence, just like a comic book, a sports car, or newspaper editorial. and frankly, it is an extremely well-done game. they didn't sell millions of copies simply based on gore. sure, that's what grabs the headlines, but the game is truly a tight bit of programming with fun, rewarding, and challenging play mechanics.
"This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy"
the most amazing thing i have ever read in my life is your suggestion that IMAGINARY VIOLENCE is worse for a child than REAL LIFE CHILD MOLESTATION. you say you would rather let your child be RAPED than play a VIDEO GAME. sir, now I am the one who is deeply offended, and frightened for your children."
i could live a little longer in this prison
If, for example, the gratuitous violence and prostitution of GTA is okay (I enjoy the game), then who's to say that a game as a rapist isn't? Obviously, even in America people would shrink from a rapist game, but where is the intellectual or moral line drawn? Is the line drawn merely by what will sell?
In movies, which I argue are the most relevant comparison, the MPAA rating system serves as a social control, because movies that exceed the R rating basically can't get a showing in theaters. However, gaming is primarily a private enterprise, done in the home. Is it right to allow people to indulge their more morally repugnant fantasies at home when we restrict them from the public in theaters?
I think that Take Two or some other company will soon push the simulation envelope even further and that we'll discover just who gets to draw the line.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I sent this to Mr. Byron and letters@nypost.com: Mr. Byron, I just read your article on Take Two and want to point out a few things: - Your comments that video games are linked to real-world violence aren't any more true than similar links to "Helter Skelter" or "Catcher in the Rye". Just the fact that video game sales are at their highest point ever and juvenile crime is at a 10-year low and violent crime in general is decreasing completely deflates your argument. Many people do insane things for insane reasons and then blame everything and everyone but themselves. Despite that fact, you'll be pleased to know that more people have been killed in the name of the Bible and Koran than over any video game. - The current median age of video gamers is 32. Assuming that all video games are made for children is just ignorant. Every game manufacturer voluntarily submits their games for rating which is then plainly marked on the package. Grand Theft Auto III and Grand Theft Auto: Vice City are both rated "M" for Mature meaning they are not intended for those under 18. Are parents who choose to buy "M" rated games for their kids any less liable than those that give their kids a bottle Jack Daniels and a pack of smokes? I think not. Some things are not meant for kids - these are two of those things. (Many large store chains to not carry M-rated games and many others require ID to purchase them just for this reason.) - You also questioned the content itself, but the New York Post is not beyond pushing sex and violence to make money. Ironically, when I visited your article there were two Victoria's Secret banner ads running on the page featuring an extremely scantily clad woman. Your site is also hosting a "Year End Survey" that includes graphic pictures of bloody victims from a bombing in Turkey and the "Portrait of War" which shows violent street battles, bloody soldiers being carried off on stretchers, and a series of pictures showing the war wounds of children. Unlike the video games in question, your web site has *no* rating whatsoever and kids could have easily stumbled across any of this publicly-available content. - Finally, you make a point that these games let you do "whatever you want". The fact that you chose to kill police and murder prostitutes was totally a choice of your making. Which is worse - for the game to offer the choice or for you to take it? In case you didn't know, the game also lets you spend time working as a cab driver, rescuing people in an ambulance and fire truck, and delivering pizzas. Of course, I know that kind of subject matter just isn't going to sell papers. Sincerely, {Me}
Reading the NY Post is worse than anal rape IMO. Playing GTA hasn't made me feel less intelligent, which is something that I can't say for the NY Post....
How is the banning of lesbian porn not related to censorship?
Just how stupid are you, really?
I hate to shatter the illusioned author's perspective of this mature-contented game being leaked into our society as an attempt to pollute children's minds with sex, violence, and immorality, but issues such as 1.) Game ratings are on and explained to parents, 2.) Game purchases are enforced by retailors, 3.) GTA mimics/imitates what we as a society have allowed our children to absorb through all forms of media. As I am currently working at Best Buy in Raleigh, NC in the Media Dept, I am usually found in the video game section. I have been playing video games since Atari 2600s were crack for kids, which has been a favorite past time throughout my childhood. Especially with the Christmas season, there have been a lot of video games purchased; mostly based upon wish lists and what nots. For every customer who ventured into my department, I personally made a point to greet, talk with them, and answer any questions they had about the games they were looking for. What more, I make an EXTRA effort to inform parents buying games whether for a new or existing system that games do have ratings. I take this to the point where I show them how to see what type of material is contained within games, so that they can make the best educated choices in selected video games. 90% of parents who were looking for M-rated games felt as though blood and violence were perfectly fine for their older children and usually followed with the remark that they see it on TV all the time! Now, it might be just me, but I enjoy playing GTA because I realize that it is just video game that allows me to release tensions that we all endure. And don't come preaching to me that you never want lop the f-ing head of the brand new black Ford Explorer with 30 day tag on when s/he cuts you off on the off ramp because they are too stupid to realize that their lane doesn't turn into Crossroads Blvd!
Maybe I'm the only person left alive on earth with an imagination, but I thought that GTA was tame. There aren't any church's, temples, or religious zealots to kill/blow up/screw in the backseat of the car. There aren't any schools or children to run over/engulf in flame/chain-saw. I mean really... what's there to be upset about? Killing cops? I mean, crap, they're the ones who always come after you in the game shooting before a word of warning. I must have been busted 100 times in that game and not once have I gotten my miranda rights! There aren't any planned parenthoods to bomb, there aren't any government buildings to ransack. Where are the daycare centers for crying out loud?!
Seriously, stories of killing cops and robbers is nothing new and it certainly isn't unique to videogames. This writer is a moron who should be embarrassed as all hell to be employed by even a paper as stupid and pandering as the NYPost. Think about what GTA could have been, think about what it is, and realize the people who made it aren't amoral. IT SAYS THAT IT'S MATURE FOR A REASON A-HOLE! I WOULDN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT A NC-17 FILM CONTAINING SCENES MY SIX YEAR OLD SHOULDN'T SEE!
As much as some people would like us to believe, nudity is not evil...and it certainly can't be compared with child molestation or even simulated murder.
You sir, are our slashdot winner of the day!
Tell him what he's won, Don Pardo!
1) "Have You Forgotten?" by Darryl
Worley- Easily the single most blatant attempt to cash in on 9/11. I find funny that New Yorkers haven't complained about this song and sued Worley for causing emotional distress.
2) Necrophilia- Which is what Jack Thompson and
Dave Grossman does to the corpses of Columbine.
3) Pedophilia
4) Murder, rape, etc.- basically any crime
5) The New York Post, this writer, and Phil
Mushnick
6) Parents Television Council- they do same
things that Thompson and Grossman does, only they blame TV. But they got their asses handed to them by WWE in 2002.
7) Haitian groups who are whining like two-year
olds over a one-year old game that has already
sold 11 million copies and is nearing the end of
its sale cycle anyway.
no
</deadpan>
Given all the negative public sentiment (or should I say, the sentiment of a few loud retards), I might even consider buying a licensed copy of the next GTA game... If they don't tone down the violence, of course. An added bonus would be a mission to teach a journalist, who writes crappy stories, a lesson.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
I think the Weekly World News deserves more than a 3.
Without them Batboy: the Musical would never have made it to the stage.
Then I look up the website and they have a blurb from the NYP: "An Instant Classic!"
Then again, the USA Today blurb says: "A Wacky, Whimsical, and Hip Tour de Force."
Does anybody actually say that? It sounds made up to me.
This signature used to contain a cute kitty virus with ansii art. Please set the slashdot editors on fire. Thank you