Slashdot Mirror
Balance Technology Extended (BTX) Explained
Anonymous Coward writes "The folks over at TweakTown have just posted an article which talks about Balance Technology Extended (BTX) - Intel's upcoming new form factor which will replace the aging ATX form factor standard we've grown used to. BTX is meant to offer better cooling and quiet computing through its smart design."
Already slashdotted! Their poor mysql can't handle the load... What a SHAME!
"Buttocks"?
No thanks!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Who bets this will be the new marketing feature to "power users"? Why don't we just stick with ATX? It's suited us fine for years, computers run too hot these days, maybe we ought to concentrate on stability and quality rather than quantity and TLA's...
did anyone get in before it died? I'm interested.
and i'm glad to see that they're not using a password on their mysql instance.
I just bought an ATX case!
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I have had many AMD processors overheat, but I have never had any intel do so.
Graphics card on the other hand require some serious cooling adjustments. I don't imagine BTX will really solve the heart of the cooling problem... the video card.
Didn't even survive 10 hits. Pathetic really.
This sounds like a good initiative. I really hope it catches on and we can see even more mass market focus on quieter PC's. I've been thinking of buying pre-built systems just to get a quieter computer.
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
Heaven forbid Intel reduce the 100W portable heater to a lower wattage. Clearly only the case & motherboard are the only components not "smartly" designed.
slashdotted already. I'm one of the first few posts.
They're reponsive, but their mySQL isn't.
-- Bill "Houdini" Weiss
Did anyone get a mirror up before the mysql server got slammed?
It said "windows 98 or better" so I installed Linux
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Everything seemed to be going so nice
'till the end of all beings punched right through the ice
More info, greater bandwidth, fewer ads, etc at Form Factors and, of course, Intel.
You mean maximum connections, dude. I have no idea how minimum connections would even be implemented.
"No! No, you can't disconnect! I have to keep some of these open! Aaaargh!"
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
half cocked attempt to keep the intel/MS upgrade spiral happening.
Some informed information is avaialable here.
However this is also half cocked.
You can download a copy of the BTX spec in PDF from this site.
So, you never owned a Pentium 60, did you... I could fry a barquedo on the case of mine.
Too bad they don't have a BTX server.
ATX is fine - these people who complain about noise.... what it's not a jackhammer people. It's pretty quiet.
Besides, try a remote display or something - put the PC in a shed or something. Isn't this supposed to be the initiave now - "mainframe" style home computing?
And I don't know what the problem is anyway - I've run many AMD chips up to 2400+ with just a CPU fan running, 4 drives(2hd 2 CDROM) with no heat problems etc... how much quieter can you really get?
I for one see no reason to rebuy all my parts - I just got a backup case ATX. So myself and most people I know will NOT buy anything but ATX until ATX is pulled from the market... There just is no compelling reason.
HTTP 403.9 - Access Forbidden: Too many users are connected
So this article has now taken down two distinct sites. Anyone willing to see if we can slashdot Intel?
Cue The Sun...
Some info on BTX can be found here. Presumably Intel's server can handle some additional traffic.
Try This
Or This
Or This
That's why it's failing. :P
Here's a few other links to similar data:
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1876
http://www.dvhardware.net/article.php?sid=1894 Has PDF's of the Spec.
http://www.intel.com/update/contents/dt10031.htm
Introduction
The computer industry is constantly evolving and building upon technology with as much mind for the future as possible. However with such a constantly changing industry, standards which we rely on do not always anticipate the changes that occur in the future. That had been the case for the AT form factor and the issues with it were addressed by the creation of the ATX Form Factor all those years ago - the design specification which computer companies abide by when designing and manufacturing their products for the PC.
Now, as ATX and its closest cousins begin to show its age from the advent of new technologies like Serial ATA and PCI Express, a new form factor is seen as a need by many companies and Intel has the answer - it's called Balanced Technology eXtended (BTX). BTX, in its basic principle design, is very similar to that of ATX, but there are a slew of changes that can and will be utilized to show that it has the potential to improve the system as a whole in terms of acoustics and heat dissipation.
Intel has been kind enough to provide us with some technical information and pictures on BTX. Let's see what the future holds for us!
The BTX specifications call for a new location for the system processor. The relative position, at a locale close to the top and front of the motherboard, allows for a new way of cooling not only the processor but the highest heat producing components of the system through the use of a "thermal module."
The thermal module consists of a duct, seal, heatsink, fan, and clip. The duct encloses the heatsink area and forces the air inducted through the massive fan over the heatsink and processor directly to the upper back of the system in a tower case. After the airflow provides cooling for the processor, it continues through the system to the graphics subsystem, whether it is on a riser card or directly into a PCI Express slot, providing additional cooling to the video card. Supposedly, airflow then trickles throughout the rest of the system to the memory and the various other internal components.
The thermal module of BTX represents how the LGA-775 Prescott will have to be cooled. BTX will more than likely be coming to the market at the same time as the LGA-775 Prescott processors with such a higher heat production. The first motherboards we will see with BTX will probably be high-end solutions that target the wealthiest enthusiasts and workstation systems then as usual we'll see more affordable systems come onto the scene shortly afterwards.
BTX, unlike any prior standard form factor, was developed to support three different system sizes. With BTX, we have the standard BTX, microBTX, and picoBTX forms. At the IDF of Fall 2003, the reference systems Intel demonstrated were in the microBTX and standard BTX forms. With the microBTX form occupying only 12.9 Liters and regular BTX form system not much larger, Intel has been able to push acceptance of BTX with OEM manufacturers with some ease.
PicoBTX, the smallest of the BTX forms, is the most interesting of the BTX form factors, in my opinion. Intel will be demonstrating 6.9 Liter systems based around picoBTX, smaller than any small form factor PCs on the market. The 6.9 Liter system will be approximately 3.1 Liters smaller than the smallest SFF PCs currently on the market today from such companies as Shuttle. This compact size will push the evolution of the compact PC and increase the acceptance of BTX, specifically by SFF PC builders and users interested in buying SFF PCs - You can already imagine the SFF leaders of the industry rubbing their hands together.
An interesting thing about the different sizes of BTX is how Intel specifications reduce the need to shift system components significantly. With BTX locating most essential system components in the upper portion of the motherboard, there is a simple move of removing a few peripheral slots with each reduction in size, bringing the total peripheral slots to one with picoBTX.
Since BTX reference desig
What if they modeled it after Cowboy Neal's butt?
It would be like that scene in Jaws:
"We're gonna need a bigger case..."
The BTX standard is emphasizing getting rid of serial and parallel ports and "legacy" hardware.
Given this, I'm wondering if I will still be able to use my full tower ATX case on the BTX boards. I know there are standard BTX cases as well as the smaller form factors. The holes on the "back pannel" previously reserved for the serial ports and PCI cards are sure to give a lot of problems mounting BTX boards if the locations of the ports changes.
Using the standard BTX format (and not the mini-BTX), I have a few questions:
Will I be able to use my case on an ATX board? Will the mounting holes be located in the same location. Will AGP be on the BTX boards (specs I remember seeing emphasize PCI xpress).
It would be a total waste if I (and many others) would need to throw away a good case. I hope AGP will still be on the BTX boards. I want to upgrade within the next year and my ATI 9600 pro would go to waste as well.
OpenSSL/0.9.6b
Someone needs to have a talk with the admin.
Come on. Are there really people out there who are going to buy a brand new computer but still have a vital need for an old keyboard? Buy a freaking adapter and save some space.
Someone needs to look into database connection pooling.
The new form factor is probably not strictly necessary, but is useful, given the move to much smaller connectors (PCI Express, USB, SATA, etc.). Serial connections are primarily institute because they use fewer pins, and so save money. The costs of packaging on modern chips, with hundreds of pins and BBGAs, is enormous. You can save more money if you engineer the form factor to go with it.
1 876. pdf. htm
PCI Express also allows low-profile cards, so with BTX, you can make much smaller machines if you go legacy-free (no PCI, AGP, MCA, VESA, EISA, or ISA slots). Generally, boards are much more integrated now, use solely SMT components, small connectors, and are cheaper, but the overall system also requires less room. Observe the number of PCI cards that consist of a 1" sliver of PCB, right up to the back of the computer, and then extend to full PCI height. That's expensive, and wastes space. The height of PCI comes from the days of ISA, with through-hole parts and 25 pin connectors going to printers. The only big cards I've seen in the past many years are custom boards and graphics cards. Graphics cards have a funky horizontal option in BTX.
To relieve the slashdotted server, a similar review:
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=
The actual spec:
http://web.newsguy.com/nstrom/BTX_Spec_1_0
Intel's info about it:
http://www.intel.com/update/contents/dt10031
Please be kind on this server: MIRROR
The example layouts seem to be crammed into a small space and don't appear to offer room for multiple optical drives, multiple hard drives or floppies.
I think the streaker had bigger boobs than her, though.
nt
Managed to get this before the server melted.
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/document.php
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Monday 2nd February, 2004
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Web Poll
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Would a simple; mysql -h tweaktown.com -u apache connect?
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silly...
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Gamblers Forum
it's a tangled mess of power supply wires that reduce airflow and look like shit, the lack of a standardized layout of ports and such on the back means you have to make like 30 cut outs on each case to get it to work with every mobo on the market, and the process of adding even more ports in the mix like Firewire (1394) and such via cables and slot headers make the inside look even worse. Why the 733T wants to have windows on their cases is beyond me - now look at the inside of a freakin Dual G5 - THERE'Sa case to have a window for.
The heat from the CPU(s) is exhausted INSIDE the case (!) leading to high temps and heat related failures.
The Apple G5 case is the best designed case around IMHFO and the BTX is still behind it on a number of fronts. At least they are'nt going to exhaust the hot air from the CPU inside the freaking case any more. Jeeezzz. :/
I have to use ps/2 cause my kvm switch doesnt have usb support. just cause you dont need it doesnt mean others dont
Does anyone else think using the letter X for words that do not start with X is getting a little bit old? eXtreme eXtended eXperience, I'm becoming annoyed.
This is my
I agree, in the AnandTech article they talk about BTX "will also bring us closer to a fully legacy-free PC, with PS/2, serial and parallel ports already beginning to disappear from prototype motherboards." Its 2004. You don't need all those medieval connectors on the back of your board. I'm sure you can get a USB adapter for your clicky-clack 40 pound IBM keyboard from 1985.
way to go posting your own IP!
to cool their new Prescott blast furnaces. An Intel D875PBZ w/Prescott 3.2GHz burns 69W more power at maximum load than an ASUS K8V Deluxe w/Athlon 64 3400+, and lacks the Cool 'n' Quiet power-saving modes of the AMD chip. The Prescott burns 61W more than its Northwood predecessor. Comparing an ASUS P4 board to an Athlon 3200+ the results are even worse! AMD's upcoming desktop Athlon 64 CG core will increase that gap (.pdf file, see page 9).
Good grief, California should ban these things before they overload the power grid, between the power wasted by the chips themselves and the additional air conditioning they'll require. All this for performence that's rarely better and frequently worse!
BTX: Big Thermal eXhaust
You did a Paco Taco!
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;^)
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Tweaktown server KAPUT...LOL..
Roses are red, violets are blue, most poems rhyme, but this one doesn't...
Are there really people out there who are going to buy a brand new computer but still have a vital need for an old keyboard?
h tm l
Goddammit YES. The IBM Model M is the best keyboard ever made. I have 6 of them. Typing on one is an epiphany. The Stuff Of Legend.
And they have a PS/2 connection.
http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/ohland/keyboard.
Hey guys, sorry that the site already started getting mangled from your visits...not my fault since I have no control over the server.
/. load alot better than it is. Right now a refresh works.
Thanks to whomever it was who copied the article over to these comments. I'm trying to get a hold of the people who "manage" the server and get them to fix things since it should be handling the
And to all the comments on the overload of advertisements, I whole-heartedly agree and am continuing to pester Cameron, the owner of TweakTown to, at the very least, remove that damned full page ad but he hasn't been too receptive. Ya'll can email him at camwilmot@tweaktown.com and tell him how much you hate the advertisement and maybe that will get him to do it.
If you have any hate mail, questions, disagreements, or any comments at all please post them here or email me at tsimmons_NOSPAM_@tweaktown.com minus the _NOSPAM_.
They'll go away as soon as companies stop making motherboards with only two usb ports.
That does not leave much space for upgrades, CTX has already been taken by a computer monitor company, see the CTX website.
To relieve the slashdotted server, a similar review:
The actual spec (PDF!):
Intel's info about it:
The article posted in the parent post is better than the article in the main posting itself. It includes actual pictures of parts of the spec. A must-read.
the main problem when it comes to heat is the case not the form factor. a simple change in case design can cure the heat problem. the new standerds can be intergrated into atx boards esaly by switching out the standered pci/agp slots with the new ones as well as a change in bios.(efi without the drm maybe?)
8 eh, well I've got around 30 :P
Just bought one of these because I want to use my new DVI KVM switch:
http://tinyurl.com/2yguf
What I'm really interested in doing is setting up an IBM model M to be wireless or bluetooth. That would be nice. :)
My big fat hairy arse, for the "goto mypc" crap that any tech user isn't going to bother with.
Just go here: http://209.15.36.47/btx.htm
Just stating 2004 is... annoying. I am waiting for upgrading my 3 year old T-bird.
BTX will maybe allow better cooling, but the cpu are consuming too much energy already :(
Anyway, i remember that i've read that ALL BTX motherboards will include DRM technology!
Don't fortget this
This looks like another rambus to me.
the lack of a standardized layout of ports and such on the back means you have to make like 30 cut outs on each case to get it to work with every mobo on the market
That's a design feature in the ATX spec. It fixes the problem that the old AT-style cases had where you were forced into using expansion slot headers or punch-outs in order to provide access for connectors other then the AT-keyboard cable. If you look at any ATX motherboard on the market today, you'll see that they come with a ~1.5"x4" metal insert that fits into a standard cutout area on the back of the ATX-case and which matches up to whatever ports the vendor decided to put on the motherboard.
Yes, the G5 is probably prettier on the inside... but you get what you pay for, but with lack of options (there's only one maker for motherboard that you put inside a G5). OTOH, with the ATX-spec, you can mix-n-match motherboards and cases to get exactly what you want. The downside is that you have to do cable/wire management yourself (rounded cables and a bit of wire-tie do just fine).
Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
Wow. Your must have one of those fancy new ones. 5 din AT connector on mine, plus ps/2 adaptor, and 6" extension to connect it to the KVM. $20 at Radio Shack to connect my beloved $5 keyboard.
What they're saying is that ATX was never designed to deal with the heat disspation issues that today's systems place on it.
That's not blame. That's a statement of FACT.
With BTX, they've gone back and rethought system layout, based on the way computers are loaded out TODAY (not 6-7 years ago).
ATX can still cope with mid-range systems today.
However, high-end systems (the midrange systems of the next year-or-two can SERIOUSLY tax a system's heat dissipation capabilities.
The worst offender is, of course, the CPU.
Next up is the GPU.
Then you have some of the chipsets nowadays that run so hot as to REQUIRE active cooling.
Worse, they're spread out all over the board. Why? Because the heat issue wasn't as much of a problem back when ATX was formalized. For Bob's sake, it was a NOVEL thing to have a CPU with a fan on the heatsink! So thoughts about airflow over components was rudimentary at best. (Nonexistent at worst.)
I mean, why do you think that wide-ass parallel ribbon-cables have held on so long? (Besides the thoughs about "serial=slow, parallel=performance" that hung on until more recent improvements in serial technologies.)
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Intel is pushing its agenda with BTX, seemingly with blatant disregard for everyone else. Unfortunately, the world will fall in line, because the world is populated by idiots.
What I'd really like to see from Intel is a standard form factor for "blade" servers. Every manufacturer who does blades has its own chassis with its own proprietary form factor, and that's one reason blade systems aren't really selling too well -- they're not future-proof because you're at the whim of one manufacturer's potentially changing designs.
If Intel were to specify a "BladeTX" (or whatever) form factor, any manufacturer's blades could go in any manufacturer's chassis. Imagine having Sun and IBM blades in the same box! Imagine buying a blade server chassis and actually being able to find blades for it twelve months later!
C'mon Intel, use your form factor dictating clout to do something useful instead of forcing everyone to load up the landfills with ATX just because you can't keep your power consumption and heat dissipation down.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Geez, you got any spare key caps? I rescued mine from a government terminal, and a whole pile of the keys (home, end, etc) are mislabeled. At least they send the right scan codes.
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
Every article is split across 10 pages.
/. editors should do us a favor and just link to the Intel propaganda; at least Intel can keep their servers up.
Every page has 10 ads.
And there isn't even any original content; the articles are just rehashed press releases or IDF presentations. OK, occasionally they run some stock benchmarks on some stock hardware (all the sites have to use the same benchmarks; they wouldn't want to break away from the herd).
The
Super, I (finally) upgraded my system from an AT form factor to an ATX a month ago and now there's this new BTX! Hopefully it won't go oe'er the land like a plauge of locutus too quickly...
We all live in a #FFFF00 submarine...
While I would be interested in an improved base mb design, not at the expense of losing the option of using AMD CPU's.
I will wait this one out.
Hey, some of us are still using AT-style keyboards. Windows key? What's that? I hope a PS2-USB adapter can chain with a AT-PS2 adapter.
The original poster makes a mistake by assuming that we're used to ATX. Some of us think that there was nothing wrong with the AT form factor.
Baby AT machines still work just fine. ATX didn't really fix anything, but it did add new problems. Why should we move to a `smarter' design?
There are some major problems with the BTX Specification. Some things are better than ATX, some are worse...
1) BTX forces you to cool your video card, north bridge, memory, and CPU with the same fan/duct combo. the BTX specification allows ONE 80mm fan to drive the wind tunnel.
This is a major design flaw. There is no possible way on earth that high end systems will be able to use the BTX form factor. Memory is getting hotter every year as clock ramps. North bridges too (not for athlon64, but other platforms it has) Video cards are already putting out more heat than even the hottest CPU's. You just can't push enough air with a single fan to cool all these components running under load unless you are using mid to low end hardware. It just won't happen.
2) BTX doesn't leave room for anything larger than 80mm at the end of the fan duct. This is a MAJOR problem.
This is actually a drawback from the ATX standard, where even the slimmest ATX cases have the physical room to house a 120mm fan in both the front intake, and rear exhaust. This means slower, lower powered fans pushing the same amount of air. This keeps your fans lasting longer, reduce maintenance needs, and reduce overall TCO. In the BTX specification, you are forced to use high speed 80mm fans to keep the system from overheating, even in a midrange setup. You simply cannot cool modern day video cards and northbridges, and memory banks and CPUs with just 1 80mm fan, no matter how efficient the ducting system is.
Suggestions for improvement:
1) Seperate the video card from the BTX wind tunnel. Put it at the bottom of the case, and make it part of its own tunnel. This would allow you to spin the fans dramatically slower and have overall cooler system.
2) Resize the ducting so 120mm fans fit properly. There is nothing worse than an 80mm fan whining in your ear running at 5,000 RPM's when you could have a 120 or 92mm fan running half the speed.
3) Do the same large fan combo for the video card tunnel.
4) Integrate circuitry that monitors temperature of the exhaust air of these 2 compartments. Set reasonable thresholds for this temperature, and have the fans spin up to a higher speed when the temperature rises such that you know that particular compartment is under load. For instance, if you load up Doom3, the video card compartment exhaust will heat up, thus requiring more airflow and thust faster fan spinning. This is not currently available on any standard systems and so far the only consumer systems which ship with microchip controlled fans are apple computers (sadly). No, thermister fans do no good, as they are tuned such that they are always running full speed (even at lowest temperature) or always running low speed (even at highest temperature). you need something which allows the PC Builder to adjust the thresholds.
4) Do away with all chipset mini fans and insted attach very large passive heatsinks. Be sure to make these heatsinks part of the wind tunnel of its repsective compartment.
5)...
6) Profit!
Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
I think Intel's new form factor is more than a little imbalanced in that it's centred around the CPU. Just when we should be trying to strike a balance between performance and power consumption, Intel's design uses a "thermal module" that looks like it's custom made for a new generation of superhot CPUs like the >100W Prescott.
This is not a good indication of where they're trying to take us. While there will always be performance freaks out there who will demand higher benchmark results even if it means central-heating-in-a-775-pin-socket, there has to be a more sensible middle ground for the rest of us, even if that means slowing down the pace a bit.
AMD seems to have taken a slightly more sensible approach, with its Athlon 64 CPU peaking at less than 90W and implementation of a speed throttling technology they've branded "Cool 'n' Quiet". But it's still a pretty hot CPU at full speed.
What we really need is better middle ground. For a desktop PC at the moment you can choose between very fast and very power hungry Pentium 4s and Athlons, or very cool but very slow VIA C3s or Edens. But there's not much in-between.
Tests have shown that if you underclock/undervolt an Athlon XP, you can retain very good performance while drastically cutting power consumption (to P3 levels and below). Effectively, it's the opposite of overclocking. This setup is ideal for people who desire all the architectural benefits of the latest platforms, but don't quite require the CPU power. But despite this, it's still a very uncommon and unsupported approach.
Instead of recruiting everyone in their race to the top and designing new form factors to cope with the power-hungry CPUs that result, why don't AMD and Intel offer us cheaper CPUs with more sensible power consumption for the mainstream, and give people a genuinely balanced choice? Why can't I buy a nice, cool-running Barton clocked at 1166MHz, or a 2GHz Northwood?
On the other hand, things might get a bit choppy when Joe User tries to run Flight Simulator. So perhaps AMD does have the right approach after all with its Athlon 64: 2GHz when you need it, but a nice cool 800MHz when running web browsers and office programs.
I have to use PS/2 cause retarded games dont feed the USB keyb/mouse enough so i get decent frames so i like the faster 200Hz port better than the USB. Theoretically USB would be faster but not by my experience.
Trolls dont like to be Flamebait, because they burn so well. Protect our Troll heritage!
Umm, may I politely ask what a "barquedo" is?
I did a google search but got mostly Spanish pages.
Food intrigues me.
Theoretically, yes. All the adaptor does is get the four useful wires (actually, it does carry five) from one plug format to another. Right now, I'm running my PS/2 Model M through a PS/2-AT adaptor (and I'm running in an AT case, not ATX!)
Anyone got a link to any solid-state hard drives big enough to run Windows XP without emptying my bank account? If the rest of the PC is all silent, it would be a shame to require a noisy hard drive.
hmmmm. Maybe you could tell me which sun box I should be looking at. Their workstations look mighty familiar to me. Or maybe you were just refering to exhausting hot air inside the box.
Sig removed because it was obnoxious
Jeez, I still have some AT form factor PCs. Much
less afford a new BTX
Aging form factor?
;)
;)
I fail to see how ATX is aging.. it might have some short commings, sure.. but hell, it seems like only yesterday ATX came out. (And i remember we were all whinging cuz we needed new cases, new powersupplies, everything, and couldn't upgrade from our old AT form factor).
All that said, the ATX form factor was a nice improvement on the AT form factor though. No longer needed a 240v mains powercable to the powerswitch on the front, more standardised, and has that cool panel at the back for all your motherboard cable plugs so you didn't need to use serial ports/parallel ports/etc on brackets taking up space where you could put in your ISA cards
Ah the good 'ol days
I still got an old Dual Pentium 200 doing good work as a server...
D.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
Model M fans may already know this, but there is a Model M semi-shrine already established!
...complete with sound bites of the Model M in action!
MODELM.ORG
--B
Dang! They're really gonna take the rice-ification of computers to new levels! "I've got a 12.9 Liter motherboard! Eat that!"
But I'll still have 440 cubic inches of MB goodness!
Fellowship 9/11
serial is way to versatile to lose.
keep atleast one of those one their
Introduction
The computer industry is constantly evolving and building upon technology with as much mind for the future as possible. However with such a constantly changing industry, standards which we rely on do not always anticipate the changes that occur in the future. That had been the case for the AT form factor and the issues with it were addressed by the creation of the ATX Form Factor all those years ago the design specification which computer companies abide by when designing and manufacturing their products for the PC.
Now, as ATX and its closest cousins begin to show its age from the advent of new technologies like Serial ATA and PCI Express, a new form factor is seen as a need by many companies and Intel has the answer - its called Balanced Technology eXtended (BTX). BTX, in its basic principle design, is very similar to that of ATX, but there are a slew of changes that can and will be utilized to show that it has the potential to improve the system as a whole in terms of acoustics and heat dissipation.
Intel has been kind enough to provide us with some technical information and pictures on BTX. Lets see what the future holds for us!
The BTX specifications call for a new location for the system processor. The relative position, at a locale close to the top and front of the motherboard, allows for a new way of cooling not only the processor but the highest heat producing components of the system through the use of a "thermal module."
The thermal module consists of a duct, seal, heatsink, fan, and clip. The duct encloses the heatsink area and forces the air inducted through the massive fan over the heatsink and processor directly to the upper back of the system in a tower case. After the airflow provides cooling for the processor, it continues through the system to the graphics subsystem, whether it is on a riser card or directly into a PCI Express slot, providing additional cooling to the video card. Supposedly, airflow then trickles throughout the rest of the system to the memory and the various other internal components.
The thermal module of BTX represents how the LGA-775 Prescott will have to be cooled. BTX will more than likely be coming to the market at the same time as the LGA-775 Prescott processors with such a higher heat production. The first motherboards we will see with BTX will probably be high-end solutions that target the wealthiest enthusiasts and workstation systems then as usual well see more affordable systems come onto the scene shortly afterwards.
BTX, unlike any prior standard form factor, was developed to support three different system sizes. With BTX, we have the standard BTX, microBTX, and picoBTX forms. At the IDF of Fall 2003, the reference systems Intel demonstrated were in the microBTX and standard BTX forms. With the microBTX form occupying only 12.9 Liters and regular BTX form system not much larger, Intel has been able to push acceptance of BTX with OEM manufacturers with some ease.
PicoBTX, the smallest of the BTX forms, is the most interesting of the BTX form factors, in my opinion. Intel will be demonstrating 6.9 Liter systems based around picoBTX, smaller than any small form factor PCs on the market. The 6.9 Liter system will be approximately 3.1 Liters smaller than the smallest SFF PCs currently on the market today from such companies as Shuttle. This compact size will push the evolution of the compact PC and increase the acceptance of BTX, specifically by SFF PC builders and users interested in buying SFF PCs You can already imagine the SFF leaders of the industry rubbing their hands together.
An interesting thing about the different sizes of BTX is how Intel specifications reduce the need to shift system components significantly. With BTX locating most essential system components in the upper portion of the motherboard, there is a simple move of removing a few peripheral slots with each reduction in size, bringing the total peripheral slots to one with picoBTX.
Since BTX reference designs began s
-- derby
Well, from what I've gathered, getting the drivers sorted for a USB input device (under, say, linux, or a bootloader) is one hell of a lot harder than just using PS/2. Of course, PS/2 ain't perfect - if it comes out the back, you're probably gonna need a reboot to get it back in sync - but having to set up a whole addressable, hot-pluggable, daisy-chainable bus before you can even type always seemed a bit much to me.
But maybe there is an easier way, and I'm just ignorant - how exactly do PS/2-USB adapters work? I mean, a PS/2 device never has to deal with addressing does it?
As the parent said: YOU CAN BUY A USB ADAPTER. I have a couple $100+ PS/2 keyboards, but I bought a USB adapter when I got my notebook (no PS/2 port on it). A whole $15... Whoop.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I like the direction that Dell and Apple have gone in with their towers. Bottom mounted PSU mainly, to keep the center of gravity low.
I want to see a good new tower spec, because it looks like BTX will not scale to tower configs.
I want 2D games back.
this looks suprisingly similar to the design of my G5. Except for the separate temp zones, but they can't do that with a builkd-it-yourself form factor. Or could they? Anyone know? Maybe they'll call it CTX.
I have a couple $100+ PS/2 keyboards
I dug mine out of several hundreds in a dumpster. Cost to me 0.0.
Now I kick myself for not taking them all.
I have used my Model M keybrard for 8 years, got it used, works like a dream. I tried all the fancy PS/2, USB, Bluetooth, whatever and I keep comming back to my tried and true Model M. This thing has been beaten in frustration (due to Windows 95) beaten in anger (damn Warcraft 2) and dropped down a flight of stairs (on accident, Moving out of the dorms, Damn hangovers....) but I put the keys back on and still works fine. I even have all the adaptors to eventually plug it into a USB port. You will have to pry my Model M from my cold dead hands.
Take a gander at those heatsinks. I mean damn, they are just HUGE. There are just realities when dealing with silicon transistors. Intel may have the highest consumption, but the other high performers aren't far behind. You just needs lots of fast transistors to get fast processing, and those give off lots of heat.
Now that's not to say you can't make lower performance, lower power CPUs. Intel does that as well. However people generally want FAST (regardless of if they need it or not), so there is a drive to continue to increase processor speeds. Intel, AMD, IBM, et al are driven by market demand.
How can you possibly cool a 150 watt chip running at full bore without sounding like you are running a sweeper?
Already my ATX case is way loud, and I'm wondering if it might not be time to start seriously thinking about liquid cooling.
This is my sig.
This post was left intentionally blank...
[blue] - The Ministry of Information approved this message...
I know it's a good idea to upgrade blade servers, but from an Enterprise perspective, you don't want to be changing chasis. Not only will it void the manufacturer's warrenty, you will face an increase in the pricing of your Support Contract.
Tom's Hardware did a thing a few years ago where they had two running systems, one Athlon and one P4, and they popped off the heat sink while it was under extreme load. The P4 just slowed down and kept on running, while the Athlon actually burst into flames...
There are 10 kinds of people: ones who understand ternary, ones who don't, and ones who think this joke is about binary
The heatsinks are huge to make the cooling even more efficient to keep the system quieter (which is also why there's 8 fans which run at a low speed, instead of 2-3 which run exceedingly fast). The G5 at 2GHz only dissipates 17W of power, there's no need for a fan directly on the heatsink, and the heatsink is fairly cool to the touch.
There are 10 kinds of people: ones who understand ternary, ones who don't, and ones who think this joke is about binary
Whoever made this gawdawful graphic should take a gander at this fine paper entitled 14 ways to say nothing with scientific visualization.
Davo -- Free speech, free software, AND free beer.
sure, you may ask, but I forgot.
And as much as I love it, it isn't as good a keyboard as the 85 key keyboard. The 84 was even better except for the weird shaped keys and the right hand shift key.
Anyway, get a USB adapter.
B'tX factor has been proposed 10 years ago!
This is partially true. The timing scheme of a typical parallel port does not scale. The data ready/data acknowledged signals are vulnerable to clock skew (I use the term informally) from the data signal if capacitances are slightly different. However, you can always get 8x the bandwidth from 8x the wires. Worst-case scenerio, you can run 8 seperate data streams, one on each wire, not worry about timing, and recombine later. There are better multiwire data transmission schemes than this. The major reason, with x86 for the new USB/SATA/PCI Express push is cost. SATA buys a 50% performance boost over traditional ATA (in addition to unrelated protocol niceties); nothing to write home about. However, once it moves into the mainstream, it'll be a heck-of-a-lot cheaper.
Just for all your information, I had my Athlon 64 3200+'s fan fall right off while the computer was on. I tried to turn the machine on two times before I opened the case and discovered the horror. Turns out a piece of the clip attached to the motherboard snapped and the fan came off but once the spare one was on, the computer worked fine. But damn that chip was hot.
Just goes to show you. I wouldn't recommend trying this at home, though.
The thermal module, which would contain the CPU, now take air from/blow air to the front of the case. That means everyone's head will get cooked by the exhaust, or the CPU's hot exhaust will cook the motherboard.
SCSI won't go serial. Many pins is faster, and SCSI doesn't care about cost. On the other hand, I haven't seen many external SCSI devices recently. Servers tend to use internal disks. External SCSI was big in the days when Macs had SCSI, and you could use it to transfer drives and files between machines. Nowadays, most external drives are USB2 or Firewire, and eventually, external SATA. A bit slower than SCSI, but for most uses of external disks, fast enough, cheaper, and more convenient.
Do you have any idea how unrealistic this is? That would add tenGs to hundreds of dollars to the cost of the PC, and reduce drive speed or reliability. The only people who will bother with this sort of approach are nerdy enthusiasts, not Dell or Gateway. This doesn't scale to mass market economics.
(Reference on drive speed/reliability: Drives have control systems to position the head. Those control systems don't expect the drive to move, and break if it does. Seagate experiment with putting dampening screws around drives with some OEMs, and it didn't work out. People sell those rubber-band kits, but they will either reduce performance or reliability, depending on control system. If you're talking about a full-fledged acoustic enclosure, then you run into thermal problems. Modern drives burn 10W, while the SilentDrive enclosure, for instance, supports drives of up to 6.8W.)
What a slapdash piece of junk this article is. It looks like the cut and pasted out of intel's press release cut sheet. They didn't even proofread their work, apparently, since the section titled "Backpanel I/O" has a graphic of the front of the case. I mean, come on you dolts! The caption they put under the picture says "The back side of a standard BTX system", and right above the caption is the label in the picture saying "Front panel USB, Audio, 1394"!
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Wrong answer. The *1.2ghz* G5 dissipates 19 watts (typically). The 1.8ghz, 42 watts. IBM doesn't list the 2.0ghz however I can gaurentee it's over 50 watts. Notice that scaling lisn't linear per mhz.
f /t echdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC 970_MPF2002.pdf
Sorry, but it just takes quite a bit of power to run fast chips. There are more and less power efficient designs, but the latest, fastest stuff just requires quite a bit of power regardless. Also, as I noted, it's not linear on an architecture. It ramps up quite quickly as you approach the limits of what it can do. So while a 1ghz G5 would probably use around 10 watts, perhaps even less, a 2ghz uses well over 5x that.
Don't drink the kool-aid specs on Mac-advocacy sites, go check the the numbers from IBM themselves. Tend to be more accurate.
http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.ns
Oh great, a millon geeks need to blow $15 so motherboard manufacturers can save $0.10.
Look for the ones with "Buckling spring (BS) technology".
"An object declared as type _Bool is large enough to store the values 0 and 1." -- 6.1.2.5, C99 standard.
Goddammit YES. The IBM Model M is the best keyboard ever made. I have 6 of them.
I know, I can always hear you typing on them from over here!
Other than this silly laptop, I use nothing but Model M's myself and can't agree with you more. However, you completely miss the parent poster's point.
There are adapters, which are very very cheap (try $10 range) that let you plug a PS/2 keyboard into a USB port and treat it like any other HID device.
Since I don't plan on using anything other than my Model M's for my desk, these adapters are a godsend since you know as well as I do that the PS/2 ports days *are* numbered. Plus being able to plug my Model M's into powermac's, etc. rocks.
Do you expect to wear out both your keyboard and mouse before they've stopped making motherboards with PS/2 ports?
I couldn't find a ATI Radeon 9800, Matrox Parhelia, or NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti video card advertised for a PCI Express slot. I've never seen any card for a PCI Express slot, nor a motherboard supporting any, at Fry's. Isn't dropping AGP just a little premature?
Your keyboards may be nominally better than the $1 OEM pieces of crap that most people use, but that certainly doesn't mean it can hold a candle to the keyboards I use.
The daily strain my hands felt hasn't reappeared at all since the day I switched. I also type noticably faster (although my accuracy hasn't hit 100%)
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Or what about people using a microsoft natural keyboard? I have yet to see an usb version and typing on a regular keyboard gives me RSI pain in minutes..
$10 isn't cheap compared to the 2 cents it costs a motherboard company to include PS/2 ports.
There's no good technical reason to get rid of ports, because the circuitry and BIOS code needs to remain for "PC compatibility".
I have asked this questions at Form Factors forum, but no one seams to be able to answer the question. So can any of you Slashdot readers help me on the way?=)
When I look at this picture of the new PSU, I can't help to think; Why the wierd shape? =)
If the tetris shape is because of the power connector, I have an idea:
"Cut off" the block with the power connector, so the case is almost cubic, and move all the output cables to the side of the PSU.
Make the power connection mountable in the tower/desktop just like an USB extenteder.
The wire from the power connector could have a small socket on the other end that is pluged in to the side of the PSU.
Or the wire from the power connector could access the PSU together with all the output cables.
What do you think?
Click on the Print link and get it all in one page without ads.
Not only I have a 3200+, but also the MSI mobo that Tom's Hardware hyped as being able to throttle the CPU to keep it "Cool 'n Quiet" (TM).
;)
I thought, "hey, cool. I can finally have some silence when just browsing the web."
Guess what? It doesn't.
All that MSI's "Cool 'n Quiet" does, is throttle the fan when the CPU is cool (i.e., never), and spin it up harder when the CPU is hot (i.e., always.) It _never_ drops the CPU speed, even if I leave it idle the whole day.
Could have got an otherwise better ASUS mobo for 10 euro less, but no, I just had to go to Tom's Hardware for advice. Geesh. You'd think by now I'd have learned that the only thing Tom's is good at, is making verbal love to themselves in public. ("6 months ago we were the first to do !" all over the articles, for example.)
Ahem... well, either way, the technology _is_ there in the CPU, but if you actually expect that your mobo also uses it... well, you might be in for a surprise
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I don't really know about cooling and all, but they should take a page from Apple's book and use the G3 / G4 cases "door" design. I hate it when I have to unscrew my ATX just to plug / unplug a hard drive or such, when all I have to do is open my G4's "door".
I never used the G5's case though. Is it convenient?
Hello! I'm a disaster waiting to happen!
For 'ordinary users' who haven't got the time to wade through specs, ATX meant:
1. cost (all those old perfectly useful AT cases had to be thrown out)
2. the ability to have a soft power-off
3. connectors built into the case
So what advantage does BTX give for ordinary users? On first glance, none at all. It just has the cost... some of the cases I have set me back $100 a piece, and I'm damned if I'm going to fork out for a BTX PSU and Case just to upgrade/replace a motherboard.
My old Cherry keyboard (AT) from 1991 is still one of the best. It also doesn't have the stupid Windows keys.
C - the footgun of programming languages
We had this BTX thing here in Europe already. It's the abbrevation for "BildSchirmText" and you can have a look at some reference designs here:
http://www.klaus.de/BtxMuseum/
It was not overall successful, so perhaps we stick with ATX...
So BTX means a whole new raft of cases? Great for landfill operators!
If the computer industry had EPR (Extended Producer Responsibility, or sometimes called Product Stewardship), they might reconsider their headlong rush to create short lifespan products.
After all, it's not the 3GHz Pentium 4 that we want, but it's the computing power that it provides.
Well, at least they have a full cock between the two of them.
Yeah, but who is the pitcher and who is the catcher? Oh wait, MS is a part of this, that makes it obvious.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
It seems a popular myth that the x86 architecture is _the_ problem. The power consumption for some of the non-x86 chips are just as high for about the same performance[1]. I mean Intel has the effectively non-x86 Itanium2 and that's like 100W. The SPARCs aren't that cool for their lower performance. The Alphas run pretty hot - some figures indicate 150W. Heck the Itanium2 gets beaten by Opterons in a recent infoworld benchmark[2].
http://www.geek.com/procspec/dec/21364.htm/ /www.aceshardware.com/SPECmine/cpus.jsp
. ht ml
The only server/desktop non-x86CPU I can recall that doesn't use as much power is the PowerPC: 40+W at 1.8GHz. They'll still have to deal with the same problem eventually.
The more active transistors you have, the hotter the chip gets, the faster you switch em, the hotter they get, and nowadays the x86 specific portions are a lot smaller than the caches. Depending on your fab process your transistors might be cooler - IBM has pretty good fab tech which may explain the PowerPC. But the main factor influencing power consumption is the design, not whether it is an x86 or not.
So I'd say the top end x86 chips are average performers in terms of performance to heat generated. The lower end x86s could actually be better - transmeta, pentium-M and so on. Heck it seems the AMD64s aren't actually that hot. The 89W stuff seems to be to make sure that people provide and use the right CPU coolers.
[1] http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/cpu2000.html
http:
[2]http://www.infoworld.com/reports/05SRlinux26
I suppose the Itanium low performance might be due to the compilers involved not being able to squeeze all the performance out. However, welcome to the real world.
What if the CPU was mounted on the bottom of the MB. Then use a 1-2 pound plate of aluminium as both the base of the case and a huge heatsink - no fans needed at all.. Rolled plates of aluminium are very cheap and one less component above will help reliability and noise. Maybe mount a built-in video chip under there too, or better yet a standard sized socket for just a video chip, imagine that as socket-370-V or something.
They put the headphone jack on the back again, along with the USB ports.
RCA-style audio connectors would be nice, but I guess any audio out from a computer is going to be full of noise, so there's no point... get a digital out and separate decoder.
I'd like one or two front-mounted slots, it would save on needing things like dongles for video inputs.
Putting the power supply fan in the front is begging for more noise... It would also be nice to have the fan outside the metal box of the PSU.
When are they going to get rid of those ancient power supply connectors? The 120/240 VAC ones? Yeah they're common and convenient, but I've found it fascinating how a $30k, 99.9999% uptime server would have hot-swappable power supplies, hot swappable CPUs, etc, but they would not let you screw down the power cord so that it doesn't get accidentally pulled.
it's pretty much standard fare for most couples!
You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
I just surfed to it. Go to ibm.com, products and services, microelectronics, components, power pc, processors, 970.
Dude! /.er out, dude! Food is good stuff, and if
I googled barquedo (even before that last post of mine)
and got a bunch ofItalian pages. The translation pages did not work so well.
Wikipedia also pointed me to Google. The translation pages were vaguley vague.
Help a fellow
there's new tasty treats to try I want em!
Hah.. the Germans where already there, again :).
No kidding, "Deutsche Bundespost" who held the TelCo monopoly in Germany back in the good old days had a system called "Bildschirm Text" or short BTX. You could hook up your computer via phone line and get information, do banking and so on (all in nice block-ascii-art). The service started 1980 and was the foundation for Germanys biggest online service "T-Online". As far as I know the service was disabled last year.
I think in the end, the new BTX motherboards will likely dispense with the PS/2 mouse port but will keep the PS/2 keyboard port.
Unusual? Not when you consider the following:
1. Keyboard data transfer rates tend to be quite low, so using the USB port may be overkill. Also, given the massive amount of legacy keyboards out there with AT or PS/2 connectors you don't want to obselete those keyboards overnight.
2. It's actually a good idea to switch the mouse pointer to the USB connector. I use a Logitech MX500 mouse pointer and its very high pointing accuracy is a result of the fact you can get much finer accuracy when the mouse is plugged into the USB port.
Years ago there was a company that made custome key caps. Seemed fairly cheap, and a cool idea. They had standard layouts, layouts for teaching typists (each finger was assigned a color, and the keys were color coded based on which finger you should use to hit it), layouts for APL, and some other custom applications that I've never heard of. I suspect they are still around if your search.
I notice a bunch of people (the same ones that protest every time a new piece of tech comes out because of the possibility that corporations can further abuse us with it, obviously) complaining that this is going to be bad because it allows chip manufacturers to think it's OK to make hot chips. Nonsense. They're under tremendous pressure to make fast chips (visit any gamer's forum to see who puts the pressure on), and they canna defy the laws of physics, Keptin, so they're going to make hot chips, too.
The fact is, PC cases are still built for that 5MHz IBM PC that stays cold all day. They're still white or beige boxes made of steel, aluminum, and plastic, drives in front, power supply in back, motherboard at the bottom, and cards jammed into the tiniest amount of space possible. Now they're towers, but that's only a desktop model turned sideways so you can fit more drives (which also get hot). Within, they're a thermodynamics nightmare, and it's about time that they're set up for better airflow by default.
Most people, when faced with a machine that continuously crashes because it's burning up inside, will simply stick more fans in all those prepunched holes that their Chinese case maker obligingly put next to the power supply and on the side of the case. Chances are, without the right airflow, the extra fans will be next to useless. They will allow you to know when you're computer is on, no matter what room in the house you're in. Just listen for the loud humming/buzzing/throbbing sound of your fans blowing hot air back onto your chips! BGA will hopefully require fewer case fans.
The other thing is now that VGA cards are getting so high-powered, they too are running hot. First they put heatsinks on them, then fans...and now the card I just bought is going to need a slot blower, because it's stuffed in with all my other cards. A more aerodynamic design would definitely help.
There's no sig like this sig anywhere near this sig, so this must be the sig.
Your link to nero-online is disgusting beyond words and also destructive. I expect better from slashdot and I am going to bring this to the admin's attention.
My Question on BTX is WHAT the fuck?? they originally moved the cpu away from the front of the CASE to put it under the powersupply exhast and keep it out of the way of expansion slots with atx, and NOW they want to move it back...... this is ADVANCEMENT? sounds like a screwed up reincarnation of AT if you ask me
I have a USB microsoft natural keyboard on my desk right now. =)
It's acutally got a usb cable and a ps/2 cable, so I'm not sure if the usb cord drives the keyboard or if it's just for the integrated usb hub (but that'd be stupid).
It's a Natural Keyboard Pro, model # RT9401.
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
>Hey, some of us are still using AT-style keyboards. Windows key? What's that? I hope a PS2-USB adapter can chain with a AT-PS2 adapter.
Hey, some of us are still using Altera toggle switches for data entry. I hope they'll make a toggle switch bank to USB adapter.
Thanks for your reaction! If your top left extra function key is 'browser back' and the hub is located behind the top of the center of the keyboard, then you have the same one I had. The usb cable was only for the hub in my case, but you might be luckier. But anyway, I read that there are relatively cheap ps/2 to usb converters on the market, so it is not a really big problem. I'd rather spend $15 than get more RSI...
The daily strain my hands felt hasn't reappeared at all since the day I switched.
My RSI problems were solved by switching to the Eclipse IDE. A lot of the time choice of editor makes a big difference.
Oooh, nice outgeek.
You do lose points due to the loss of functionality from a keyboard, be it a USB, PS2, or AT interface, to toggle switches. Couldn't you go for an older keyboard type?
I mean, what's next? "Where's my punch card-USB interface?" Naah.
I've been searching for this for long time: software controlled undervolting. Throttle down your CPU (and lower noise and energy consumption) when you don't need full performance and let it run at full speed (hey, even at more than full speed with FSB of 150 ...) when you need it.
Found this gem in the forums at www.silentpcreview.com:
8rdavcore. Available for Windows and Linux. Works wonderful on my Epox 8RDA3+ board and on some others with a nforce chipset.
Bye egghat.
-- "As a human being I claim the right to be widely inconsistent", John Peel
THE kind of faggot you fucks your mom every single nigh ASSHOLE...OR the kind of faggot who has no other isp choice FUCKHEAD...OR The kind of faggot who uses AOL trials to avoid NORMAL ISP charges, CUNT....THERE are LOTS of different KINDS OF FAGGOTS around, YOU ARE DEFINATELLY ONE OF THEM ... YOU can group by yourself FAGGOT By sticking a fucking router up your ass AND TELNETTING TO SLASHDOT YOUR FUCKING TROLL....GO BACK TO YOUR FUCKING CAVE TROLL...
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