An Ignition Interlock In Every Car?

ryeguy-nm writes "Monday the New Mexico House of Representatives passed a bill that would require every car sold in the state to have an ignition interlock. This device is essentially a breath analyzer that prevents the car from being started if the driver is drunk. The bill would require that every new car sold be equipped with an ignition interlock by 2008 and every used car by 2009. Ignition interlocks require a breath test, which takes 30 seconds to complete, to start the car as well as random 'rolling retests' to discourage others from taking the test for you. These rolling retests require the driver to take the test as the car is moving. If the driver fails a retest, the horn sounds and the lights flash until the car is turned off. The bill's lead proponent is Dem. Ken Martinez who believes the bill is a quick fix for New Mexico's drunk driving problems. Opponents of the bill argue that it penalizes car dealerships and law abiding citizens who have never driven drunk. The bill makes no mention of who will have to pay for the device, but it will most likely be auto dealers and citizens who have to sell their cars. It seems to me that impinging upon the liberty of an entire state is a little bit too extreme. Perhaps tougher penalties and larger fines for people who actually drive drunk would be a better idea."

Comments

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[Ryntis]

it seems if they are going to do something like that, they need to get rid of the laws that can get you a DUI for just sitting in a parked car drunk.. there are so many laws that need fixed all over the country.. i think the federal government needs to force counties and states to do a lawbook housecleaning some year. Then just have a 4 page ballot one year and be done with it all.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Most laws (basically anything not having to do with the golden rule) should sunset, but whoever proposed this law is dangerous.
me

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[swordboy]

Here would be a good law for everyone:

Ban parking lots at establishments that serve alcohol. With the new blood-alcohol limits, it doesn't take much to put an average human over the limit. Having a parking lot at a bar is like being an accessory to the crime.

But that would limit government tax income and police revenue. So they certainly couldn't do *that*.

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[danknight]

Well, I for one think it's a GREAT idea ! Although just maybe they should have a test run or something... all the reps should have them installed in thier own cars for a year or so and then tell us how it worked out.

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[FlyGirl]

i think the federal government needs to force counties and states to do a lawbook housecleaning some year

How about the federal government having to do the same thing? I always liked the idea of a proposal that each governing body's laws should hav a limitation, x number of words or some such thing.

It's a sad day (and it happened a LONG time ago) when most of us hardly know ANY of the laws that we are supposed to follow. I don't have a reference, but I read somewhere that the average citizen unknowingly breaks at least 10 laws a day.

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[Mattcelt]

I have been a supporter of "Sunset provisions" in laws for a long, long time. It seems to me that most laws should have a mandatory lifetime after which they would have to be renewed, or they would expire.

Obviously, basic issues (murder, theft, etc.) would be exempt from this sort of thing, but the majority of laws - especially those pertaining to technology - should live their useful life and go away.

Even better would be a restriction that only the core parts of a bill, not any ancillary additions (i.e., unrelated pork-barrel spending, etc.), which would have to be renewed separately.

It would mean a lot more work for congresses in the future, but that could be dealt with when the need arises.

Sunset provisions are a really good idea!!

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[squiggleslash]

Most restaurants sell alcohol; it would have quite a substantial effect on that industry, they'd either have to stop selling alcohol, and lose customers that way, or stop letting their customers park there, and lose almost all of their customers outside of built-up cities. Most drinkers at restaurants will only have one or two drinks, and most will come with someone else who's capable of being the designated driver anyway.

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[Eccles]

Why would these representatives care if their chauffeur was inconvenienced?

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[Zeinfeld]

Most laws (basically anything not having to do with the golden rule) should sunset, but whoever proposed this law is dangerous.

Probably not since laws of this type tend to get pre-empted by federal laws. In any case the bill has not been passed into law, it is currently being considered by the Senate.

This is an election year, so time to grab headlines. Making proposals of this sort is a game the congressmen like to play. You get someone to propose some new law that would cost an industry a large sum of money. Then their lobbyists are forced to cough up plenty of cash in bribes to try and stop it.

Car dealers tend to be significant donors in local politics. The dealers are a group like the taxi-owners, they depend on political favors for their business. Most states have laws that prevent car manufacturers from selling direct to the customer, cutting out the dealer. The dealers also lobby to prevent increases in car purchase taxes as a quick fix for budget shortfalls. This bill probably means that some local dealers failed to pay the necessary protection money this year.

A new variation of this game is you get a bill passed in a state and then the industry is forced to pre-empt the legislation at the federal level, which extracts huge bucks.

Sure both sides play this sort of game. But it has become more blatant since the GOP won control of congress and even more blatant still after DeLay deposed Gingrich.

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[SlashDread]

The best way to make new law, is to mandate it has to replace an old one or two. Enough is enough! Of course then we will end up with 10 commandments, no nine.. no eight.. no wait a sec.. Anarchy! But thats a good thing.

"/Dread"

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[Boing]

Sunset provisions, are a good idea, but I see no reason to exempt quote-unquote "basic issues" such as murder or theft. It's not like, when the law against murder is up for renewal, there are going to be a lot of people saying "hey, I don't think there's nearly enough murder going on these days". On the other hand, allowing an exemption clause would just open the gates for lawmakers to describe their pet projects as "basic issues".

"Oh, restricting black people from voting is a basic issue, there's no reason to review that at any point in the future."

We just don't know what laws we currently have that are going to be deemed acceptable in the future, so why presume that we do in certain situations?

Also, I wouldn't worry about adding work for congresspeople; either they'll hate the extra work and be discouraged from making needless legislation, or they'll like it because they can reasonably give themselves higher salaries and larger staffs, and we'll still get sunset provisions. It's win-win.

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[Ray Radlein]

it seems if they are going to do something like that, they need to get rid of the laws that can get you a DUI for just sitting in a parked car drunk.

I can hardly wait for the first time some stranded motorist dies up in Mesa country during the winter because he can't start his car to run the heater (either because of a malfunction in the interlock somewhere, or because he took a swig of booze in an effort to stay warm).

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[the_mad_poster]

Obviously, basic issues (murder, theft, etc.) would be exempt from this sort of thing..

You underestimate what a powerdrunk government that doesn't want to give up that power can do. If you give them ANY loophole, they WILL find dirty, underhanded ways to exploit it. Look at the copyright situation. It's so assbackwards now from what it's supposed to be that the people that originally debated it would probably get sick to their stomachs if they saw how the issue has been butchered. Look at the way we tried to circumvent basic rights in this country by declaring people "enemy combatants" - an inoccuous term that just sprang into existance when convenient to take advantage of the "state of emergency" we're perpetually in. Doing things like that is like saying that the current laws don't work, so we need special ones to take their place. It doesn't matter WHY someone is criminal, if they're a criminal they're a criminal and we already have a setup to deal with them. Why do we need special exceptions for different types of criminals? They're just exploiting loopholes to garner additional power they're not supposed to have.

You can't trust the government to do the right thing - this country is based on that principle. Why do you think each of the three branches is supposed to keep the others under control? Why do you think the constitution is written in ways that suggest the framers expected the government to get out of hand? It's only natural that it will take every chance to grab more power. There should be NO exceptions. If the law isn't enforced or renewed, it dies - NO EXCEPTIONS.

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[danknight]

Hmm.. Good point, thats what sucks about the people who make the laws that the other 99% of us have to follow while for various reasons they are effectively exempt from them. Surely they must have personal cars though.

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[Anonymous Custard]

Sunset provisions have their goods and bads... It's good to force a review of a laws, witht he hopes of undoing a particularly bad one, such as the Patriot Act.

But it also creates uncertainty, in that every time the administration changes, or power in the senate or house shifts parties, all the work done by the previous congress could be reversed through a "review".

Don't many laws already have sunset provisions?

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[ichimunki]

If most restaurants are selling alcohol then most restaurants are certainly contributing to the problem of drunk driving. Personally I think rather than worrying about the restaurants' business, which is their own problem, we should focus on punishing criminal behavior with serious sentences instead of the wrist-slaps we've been giving out.

But in a country where a guy arrested for DUI can still hope to be elected president someday, how soon do you think that will happen? Instead we're going to get all these misdirected attempts to punish everyone (whether it's in-car breathalyzers or disappearing parking lots).

It's insane that in a country where simple possession of a naturally growing plant can land you a felony conviction that being found guilty of drunk driving isn't a life-destroying event.

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[Dun Malg]

That's a perfectly good law (unlike the stupid ignition interlock law described in the story). If you have the keys and are in the car, you've demonstrated your intention to drive.

Nonsense. At most you've demonstrated you're possible intention to drive. It may alternately demonstrate your intention to listen to the radio, roll down the power windows, or plug your cell phone into the cigarette lighter socket to call a cab. Keys in the ignition + seat belt, maybe, but even then the fact that you're not operating a motor vehicle makes calling it a DUI pretty fascist. It may be true that it's a lot easier to arrest drunk drivers if you can nail 'em just for sitting in the driver's seat with their keys in the ignition, but that also means that people who had no intention of driving drunk (but don't know the draconian extent of the law) get DUI's as well. The problem is the whole notion of "proactive law enforcement". By making a whole set of activities that are merely possible precursors to crime themselves illegal, the definition of criminal acts expands to include people who have hurt no one, would not have hurt anyone, and/or never had any intention of doing anything that would have hurt someone. Why not make it a DUI to posess car keys while drunk? It sounds stupid, but it makes as much sense as making it a DUI to listen to the radio or roll down the window from the driver's seat while drunk. More laws won't stop people from being criminals; more laws just creates more criminals.

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[strike2867]

Its called the Supreme Court. If you have a problem with a law, it can be appealed at any time.

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[Hektor_Troy]

Speaking of the ten commandments. I believe George Carlin said it best:

Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?

You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:

About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.

Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.

Let's start with the first three:

I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN

THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH

Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:

HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER

Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.

Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.

And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE

Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital infidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.

But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS

This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:

THOU SHALT NOT K

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[mini me]

I live out of town, but the nearest city to me, not many drinking establishments have parking lots. So it means parking on the street, or in a nearby pay lot.

As far as I can tell, the government (Ontario) almost encourages drinking and driving. They make no effort to allow people to find out their BAC before getting in the car. Instead of the cops sitting a mile down the road from the bar, how about they stand right outside the bar and check people on the way out. Better yet, make breathalizers even more accessable than that. Every bar should have one, or even personal ones. I think a lot of people end up driving because they think they are okay, but have no way of knowing for sure. Granted they shouldn't drive at all, but that will never happen.

The other problem is that the affermentioned city, and most other places I've been to, enforce that all cars must be off the streets at 3AM. What better way than to promote drinking and driving? The driver maybe doesn't want to move their car after they had one too many. But they have no choice, or pay the parking fine.

If government really wanted to stop drinking and driving they could almost eliminate it by making a few small changes. But I think they'd rather have the money come in, and risk a few deaths.

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[mirio]

Or more realistically, legislators will vote for these laws because if they don't, during their re-election campaign or any subsequent campaigns, their opponent will run an ad saying "Senator voted to allow drunk drivers on our streets".

And we're talking about state politics here...I love how you snuck in the GOP in general and DeLay/Gingrich. But since you brought it up (and at the risk of being modded flamebait):

The DNC does exactly the opposite. They just buy votes by promising their constituency they'll give money to them that they took at gunpoint from someone else (welfare, "universal" healthcare, etc).

They vote to take money away from states in the form of taxing that states' citizens then force those states to comply with national regulations in order for that state to get it's money back. Without taking the money from the state to begin with, they would have no constitutional authority to force these things on states. Yes, both sides are guilty here too (No Child Left Behind) but we all know who is worse at it.

This is not extortion?

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[strictnein]

If most restaurants are selling alcohol then most restaurants are certainly contributing to the problem of drunk driving.

Don't be dumb. That's like saying a hardware store that sells pipes is contributing to people building pipe bombs.

On one hand, it's a true statement. On the other hand it's an absolutely stupid statement.

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[LittleGuy]

I can hardly wait for the first time some stranded motorist dies up in Mesa country during the winter because he can't start his car to run the heater (either because of a malfunction in the interlock somewhere, or because he took a swig of booze in an effort to stay warm).

I'm betting more on an accident caused by a distracted driver who has to take a "rolling retest" on a busy highway instead of concentrating on the road. And this, in the midst of banning cell phones (both handheld and not) because they are a distraction.

Also, to a lesser extent, people who have to take up to and extra 30 seconds to start up a car, but don't have that luxury due to an emergency (hospital, flight out of fear, etc.)

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[Skynyrd]

As far as I can tell, the government (Ontario) almost encourages drinking and driving. They make no effort to allow people to find out their BAC before getting in the car.

I don't need yet another thing for the government to do for me. If you aren't able to judge your ability to drink, buy a breatalizer.

Better yet, make breathalizers even more accessable than that.

You can buy a DOT certified breathalizer for about $100. A DUI in California costs about $10,000 by the time you're done with it. Hmmm. Going to have a drink now and then, don't rely on the govenrnment, do it yourself. You can also buy "go/no-go" strips for less than a dollar. Put one in your mouth and you're over/under depending on the color.

Sorry, but I hate hearing what the government should "do for us". Arrrrrggggghhhhh!!!!

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[Boing]

Consider all the crap that gets passed due ot it being attached to neccesary budget bills.

That's a valid concern, but you're focusing on the symptom, not the disease. Attaching unrelated riders to bills is its own problem that should be dealt with accordingly. There's no reason to twist the valid parts of the legal process to accommodate that flaw.

If the law against murder got sunsetted because some congressperson wanted to attach a rider for increased tollbooth maintenance funding, I think we'd see the legislation drafting process undergo some much-needed reform very quickly.

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[stephenbooth]

But in a country where a guy arrested for DUI can still hope to be elected president someday,

At least if he's president someone else will be driving most of the time.

Stephen

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[ratamacue]

there are so many laws that need fixed all over the country

You can't rule a nation of innocents. The more laws, the more criminals, and the more power (hence profit) for those who control government.

There is a very good reason why government has a tendency to expand over time: because it benefits those in power.

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[Spleenl3oy]

This law is nothing like the emissions standards in California. Those laws do not take away the liberties of people who have not, and dont plan on breaking the law.

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[Shakrai]

Am I the only one that thinks as evil as Drunk Driving is (I nearly lost my sister to a Drunk Driver) we are giving away too many civil liberties over it?

MADD are a bunch of fanatics imho. Why am I required to give evidence against myself if I get pulled over? In my state if you refuse a BAC test you automatically lose your license. The cop can ask you take one even if you haven't touched a glass of booze in months -- and you have no right to refuse.

Enforcement of DWI laws is out of hand too. I've personally been pulled over three different times (two of those times I hadn't been drinking at all -- the third time I had two drinks in a four hour period) on bullshit excuses (loud muffler on my brand new 2003 car with less then 12,000 miles on it) then immediately asked "Have you been drinking?" They shouldn't have the right to even ask that question without some sort of probable cause -- and he had none. I find it hard to believe that he smelled liquor on my breath when I hadn't had a drink in two weeks!

The third time I was actually forced to take the BAC test because I made the mistake of answering "Yes" to the question. He attempted to make me take the roadside sobriety tests -- which I refused. He then claimed that I would lose my license -- to which I replied I could only lose it for refusing the chemical test -- not the "Walk on the line" tests. I blew a 0.018 -- real threat to society there! I received no apology after the fact in any of these incidents for the way I was treated like a common criminal -- the third time I received a lecture! I replied to this lecture with an observation about how I was the DD for three people who were shitfaced and how my taxes pay his salary -- to which I was told "Son, don't let me see you here again." Quite the arrogant statement considering as how the Officer appeared to be less then 5 years older then myself.

I'm sorry as evil as drunk driving is we don't check our civil rights every time we climb into an automobile. What part of the 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination don't they understand?

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[Shakrai]

If most restaurants are selling alcohol then most restaurants are certainly contributing to the problem of drunk driving.

So because you can't control yourself at an establishment that's serving alcohol it becomes the establishments fault? Why don't you take some responsibility for your own actions instead of expecting the Government or the bar-owner to do it for you? I've been at the height of shitfaced before and still had the higher reasoning abilities to say "Ok, I'm done drinking" for whatever reason (money, needed to drive the next day, etc). I also have the self-control to limit myself to one or two drinks if I know that I have to drive to get home.

What's next? Is it McDonalds fault if you can't control yourself when they open a restaurant two blocks from your house and you gain 200 pounds?

Instead we're going to get all these misdirected attempts to punish everyone (whether it's in-car breathalyzers or disappearing parking lots)

No argument there. But your statement of "the restaurants are contributing to the problem" belies the type of "Nanny-state" mentality that allows laws like this to be passed. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.

It's insane that in a country where simple possession of a naturally growing plant can land you a felony conviction that being found guilty of drunk driving isn't a life-destroying event.

Umm being found guilty of DWI is a life-destroying event. It will cost you at least ten years of your life. You are going to lose your license -- there's a good chance you will lose your job -- your Insurance rates are going to increase anywhere from 3x to 10x times depending on the state (I work for an insurance agency and I've seen policies go from $600 to $4,500 over DWI convictions), it'll be published in the paper, your friends are probably going to turn their backs on you and there's a good chance you'll be doing some jail time and/or paying pretty big fines.

What do you mean by "life-destroying event"? Should we lock up DWI'ers for 15 years to life? That seems a little harsh -- unless they killed someone -- in which case they can be charged under existing (Manslaughter) laws and punished appropriately. If nobody got hurt then I think the existing punishments are more then ample.

The last thing we need is more laws on the books.

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[rhaig]

With the new blood-alcohol limits, it doesn't take much to put an average human over the limit.

of course lowering the limits as far as they are isn't doing as much to save lives as it is to increase the work upon our police and legal system. BAC levels of convicted drivers hasn't changed signifigantly since before the levels were lowered. What does this mean? It means the police and courts are spending more time dealing with the drivers that are 0.08-0.099%. Also, those drivers aren't causing accidents like the 0.10+ folks are. actually, the break in the curve as far as the statistics go is at 0.115-0.12% depending on whose numbers you look at.

So who keeps lowering the BAC levels? MADD

when the founder of the organization is quoted as saying she works for the liquor lobby now because MADD has gone away from preventing people from driving drunk, and towards prohibitionism. The current president of MADD is quoted as saying her target BAC level nationwide is 0.00%.

so what's the point of this post? I agree that it doesn't take much to put the average human over the legal limits, and that's a shame, because those legal limits are low because of political pressure, not public safety.

Hell, to fly a plane, you only have to have been not drinking for 8hrs and have a BAC of less than 0.04%, and MADD wants 0.00% ??

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[Anthony Boyd]

Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?

You simply do not need ten.

In the New Testament, Jesus condensed them all down to one: act only out of love.

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[Shakrai]

So if you ever did get a DUI ticket with that BAC (you can get an under the limit DUI) you could easily in many states (including Nevada) claim that is a reading which the legislature intended to be interpreted as zero.

I wasn't charged with anything. I was pointing out the humiliation of being forced to blow into a plastic tube (i.e.: guilty until proven innocent) because I had two drinks over four hours ago. Enforcement of DWI laws is getting out of hand when I can be pulled over merely for leaving a parking lot that is sometimes used by a bar and forced to give evidence against myself. The first two times I was pulled over I hadn't been drinking at all! Yet I was instantly asked "Have you been drinking tonight sir?" I regard that as a personal insult.

What's next? Are they going to round up all the adult males within a two mile radius of a sexual assault and force them to give DNA samples? If they attempted this there would be outcry -- yet they do the same thing with DWI laws on a daily basis and nobody says anything.

0.018? That is less than 0.02 which means even under many states "zero" tolerance laws (i.e. for those under 21)

That's another rant. I love how I can be drafted into military service if Congress deems it necessary at 18 yet I can't touch booze until I'm 21. I have a constitutionally protected right to vote at 18 but I can't drink. You can't have it both ways people -- either I can't be drafted, vote, forced to pay taxes, or be charged as an adult until I'm 21 or I can drink at 18.

There's other problems as other posters have pointed out too. How about being charged with public intoxication if you are walking home drunk? I love that one -- damned if you do damned if you don't. Why should I be forced to get a ride with friends or take a taxi if my house is within walking distance -- as long as I'm not being loud or obnoxious?

Politicians love doing anything that looks like they are fighting DWI because it scores them cheap political points. Whose going to stand up and defend drunks anyway? Hell it's an election year after all...

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[DAldredge]

One can not look at the total of human histroy and say it is not a natural activity for humans to kill each other...

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[Shakrai]

I can't understand how your words are supposed to accomplish anything in that situation. What can the cop do about it? He/she only enforces the laws.

No, the cop in that situation broke the laws he was supposed to be enforcing.

A) Pulls me over without reason (loud muffler on a brand new car? Give me a break -- he never had the balls to actually write that ticket)
B) Asks if I have been engaging in illegal activity with no cause to suspect I have.

If a cop pulls someone over because they happen to be Black and are driving a nice car that's called racial profiling and there would be an outcry. Why isn't it profiling for them to sit outside the bar parking lot and randomly pull people over who are obeying every rule of the road -- or follow them for ten miles until they commit some sort of minor traffic infraction (failure to signal, 5 miles over the limit, etc) that we all do on a day to day basis? Cops aren't allowed to follow me around K-Mart waiting to see if I'm going to shoplift.

Talk to the lawyers/politicians/rich people/critical-mass-of-choice who can do something about this.

Nobody is going to a damn thing about it -- call me cynical. MADD has too much lobbying power. Sooner or later it'll get to the point where it's a felony to drive if you have ANY measurable BAC. If my state refuses to adopt it they will lobby the Federal government to withhold our highway funds.

Meanwhile the Nanny-state and big-brother get bigger and bigger and harder to stop. Nobody cares, because how can stopping DWI's be a bad thing?

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[freeweed]

You're right. Everyone should be exactly equal, regardless of effort put into life. Regardless of who does the work, we should divvy out the spoils equally.

If I choose to never do anything productive, I should still be entitled to the exact same standard of living as you. You should give me your new car every second day of the week. Your house? You should allow me to live there. Your computer? Sorry, I can't afford one, so neither should you be able to. We should both get a cheaper model so that I don't feel inferior to you. Me me me.

See, going to ridiculous extremes works both ways, and is.. well, ridiculous. Any have/have-not disparity always comes down to ME. The haves want what they have, and the have-nots want it also.

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[QuantumFTL]

Look at the way we tried to circumvent basic rights in this country by declaring people "enemy combatants".

I really don't agree with a lot of what this government (and the last, and the last) have been doing, however I'm really tired of people making a big deal about this "enemy combatant" thing. The people that everyone was whining about not being granted "Prisoner of War" status do not fit the definition of POW in Article IV of the Geneva Convention. The convention states that they must either be a regular member of official armed forces, or fufill all the following conditions:

• (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
• (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
• (c) That of carrying arms openly;
• (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

The people that were being detained, terrorist or not, do not fit that definition. To grant them that legal status would be to dilute its meaning. POW is a very specific legal term and I do not see anything wrong with this administration refusing to use it.

Of course there are issues with how the people in Cuba were treated, no matter who they were.

Our constitution is very clear on what rights of our citizens may not be abridged, however I do not believe it grants those same rights to foreign criminals. Maybe it should however these "basic rights" aren't protected the same way as they are for US citizens.

Why do we need special exceptions for different types of criminals?

Most criminals don't try to kill 40000 people at once. Most criminals are interested in making money or getting personal revenge, not on causing destruction on a scale that could reach millions. Terrorists are not simple criminals, they are enemies of the state that operate in a psuedo-warlike fashion, and should be treated as such.

I do agree that governments in general tend to expand their powers when possible. Our constitution is designed to prevent things like this however it's often not properly applied. However it's also clear that our democratic system of government has been very successful at recovering from power-madness... Look at things like the Sedition Act that are no longer around... the Patriot Act wouldn't have flown without the terrorism, and eventually when things settle down in the world laws like that will be re-examined.

If the law isn't enforced or renewed, it dies - NO EXCEPTIONS. I agree that it'd be great to have manditory renewals on laws, however there are a multitude of problems with this:

• The amount of laws in this country is simply astounding. If Congress had to revist each and every one, we would have no time for passing new, more relevant laws.
• As the balance of power on Capital Hill changes, this will almost guarantee that the laws will fluctuate rapidly from election to election. Our government was set up to be slow and steady, not quick, radical, and flighty.
• Having many laws changing makes a lot of issues, and I don't just mean lawyers being stuck up late at night. It's already difficult to expect people to know the laws they are bound by, and changing them constantly will make this almost impossible. Not to mention the cost to businessees who have to change wordings in contracts or business practices all the time. Businesses happen to have this great habit of passing costs to the consumers. This sounds bad for everyone.
• Also I think that having laws being temporary by nature encourages them to be more radical, which gives us thigns like the Patriot Act.
• As of right now the public already has a way to strike down laws that are terrible: constitutional amendment. 3/4ths of state conventions on an amendment is what is required according to the constitution, and if a law is really so hideous as to offend the entire population they will be quickly struck down

Re:laws

[Analogy Man]

You see, I deserve to be richer, smarter, better-looking, safer, better-fed, and healthier than anyone else. Me me me.

You forgot more sex with hotter women in there, but maybe that comes with the richer/better-looking in a package deal...I wouldn't know.

Re:laws

[jpallas]

Why am I required to give evidence against myself if I get pulled over?
...we don't check our civil rights every time we climb into an automobile.

Yes we do. You waived your fifth amendment right against self-incrimination when you requested the privilege of piloting a ton of steel at sixty miles an hour on roads shared with other drivers. If you didn't understand what you were signing and want to change your mind, I'm sure the state will be happy to exchange your driving license for a non-driving photo ID.

And maybe you should ask yourself exactly why it is that you've been pulled over three times and asked if you've been drinking. Is there something about your sober driving that resembles other people's drunk driving?

Re:laws

[Shakrai]

Yes we do. You waived your fifth amendment right against self-incrimination when you requested the privilege of piloting a ton of steel at sixty miles an hour on roads shared with other drivers. If you didn't understand what you were signing and want to change your mind, I'm sure the state will be happy to exchange your driving license for a non-driving photo ID.

Sorry, but in the United States of America driving is not a privilege -- it is a right. My job is 18 miles away -- I have no means of getting there with mass transit -- a taxi would cost me $20 each way. I can't have a life unless I have a car. That's a true statement for any American unless they live in a large city.

They shouldn't be able to make you sign away your rights to get something as essential as a drivers license -- or anything else for that matter. What's next? Mandatory finger-printing to get a license? DNA sample? What happened to presumption of innocence?

Owning a computer with a broadband connection isn't exactly in the bill of rights either but I don't recall the Government being able to force you to turn over your Hard Drive for examation with the implied threat of losing your right to access the Internet if you refuse.

And maybe you should ask yourself exactly why it is that you've been pulled over three times and asked if you've been drinking. Is there something about your sober driving that resembles other people's drunk driving?

Yes, twice I was pulled over for my "load muffler" (note: they never actually ticketed me) and the other time I was pulled for not coming to a complete stop before executing my right-on-red (didn't ticket me that time either). If these examples were so dangerous to society why didn't they actually write the ticket? It was obviously a pull-over just to see if I was drunk. Hello? Probable cause people? Does my supposed load muffler automatically make me suspect for driving under the influence?

As an aside I did get pulled over coming out of a bar once after two drinks (in a five hour period -- got there at 7pm and left at midnight) for executing an illegal u-turn. I was ticketed for this and the officer never asked me if I had been drinking. I have no right to complain about that -- I did violate the traffic law.

I do have the right to complain about bullshit pullovers where they can't substantiate anything, random roadblocks (police state anyone?) and being presumed guilty until I prove myself innocent.

Perhaps you are willing to sign away your rights under the illusion that it makes you safer. I'm not.

Re:laws

[mirio]

You see, I deserve to be richer, smarter, better-looking, safer, better-fed, and healthier than anyone else. Me me me.

If I work harder than you at the above-mentioned things, you're exactly right! I do deserve more.

(BTW, please don't ask how we satisfy our fundamentalist Christian constituency while at the same time enacting laws that go against the most basic tenets of the Judeo-Christian ethic: the Golden Rule and the admonishment to help those less fortunate...we can't figure it out either!)

Stating that people should be responsible for their own needs to the best of their ability is *not* admonishing someone! This country is incredible and almost anyone can and has made a success out of themselves with hard work. How do you think we have *so* many immigrants in this country that come here and open up gas stations, restaurants, etc and are all successful? It's because they work hard and build something with their own two hands. They do it by working 14 hours a day so they don't have to hire help to run their businesses. The fact is that people want to live a good life and not have to work for it. Why do you think so many people who are poor will go and pay so much money on the lottery a month when they could take that same amount of money, drop it in an IRA and actually have something to show for it after a few years? It goes back to that smarter thing you were talking about earlier.

As far as the bitch slap about the fundamentalist Christian mess, you could make the same argument about liberals. Liberals (from my observations) believe anyone with Christian religious beliefs is obviously an ignorant, inbred hick while Muslims are simply misunderstood (I have nothing against Muslims, there just seems to be a double standard). They believe all politicians should denounce any belief in God.

Oh yeah, our (God forbid) fundamentalist Christian beliefs tell us that we should provide for our families and not wait around for someone else to do it for us with money stolen from those who are actually working.

People who are poor have obviously screwed up something in their lives. Don't give me this crap about people's circumstances being different. I don't believe it. I was born in a house in the middle of the North Georgia without electricity. My parents could hardly read. I put myself through college with student loans (available to anyone who didn't wreck their credit at age 18). I didn't have the grades in high school to get into a decent school so I started out at the local community college and eventually brought my grades up to the point that I was accepted (after 4 rejections) to Georgia Tech. I gradated there in 99 with a CS degree. Don't talk to me about poor people. I'm probably more qualified on the subject than most.

It's all about hard work and accountability for one's own actions.

For the life of me, the one thing I can't understand is why liberals continuously complain about government, call it evil and burn it's symbols, yet continue to give that government more power by surrendering more money to it.

Re:laws

[wirelessbuzzers]

That's another rant. I love how I can be drafted into military service if Congress deems it necessary at 18 yet I can't touch booze until I'm 21.

You can drink at 18 with a military ID.

Re:laws

[Shakrai]

You can drink at 18 with a military ID.

On-base perhaps -- not in normal establishments. And that's not the point. How nice of them to allow me to drink after they draft me.

The point is that an 18-20 something kid is obligated to pay taxes and be tried as an adult if they commit a crime -- yet they can't legally drink. If you are male you are forced to register with selective service -- yet you can't drink.

At 18 years old you can vote, drive, smoke cigarettes, enter into legal agreements, join the service, buy/view pornographic materials or shows, borrow money on credit, consent to sex, adopt a child, consent to surgery, appoint someone as your power of attorney, change your name, renounce your American citizenship, move to another state or country, etc etc etc etc.

The state has no right to tell me I can do all of these things, obligate me to register for military service, treat me like an adult (i.e: charge me with a crime and send me through the adult legal system), yet tell me that I can't legally drink a toast if my sister announces that she is engaged.

Something is wrong with that picture.

Re:laws

[jcoleman]

I consider myself liberal, although I do find myself leaning toward the conservative side on a few issues. I also have Christian beliefs. One of them is not forcing my religion on those who do not wish it, as the fundamentalists seem to believe is the most important thing to do.

I don't believe that politicians have the right to push their religious beliefs on me in the form of laws. Lo and behold, the Constitution agrees. What particularly grates me is when they pass a law that makes life difficult for someone of a lower socioeconomic status while making life easier for a rich guy at the same time. A good example of that is tax cuts for corporations who send jobs overseas while the working Americans get screwed out of a job that is all they have done their entire lives. Anyway, this particular action seems to be in direct opposition to their stated religious beliefs, and that makes me crazy.

Now you may say that these working Americans should have planned ahead, but I ask you...did your parents plan ahead when they didn't learn to read very well?

I will agree that those working harder deserve "more." I don't agree that those who can't work harder for whatever reason deserve no right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I think everyone should at least have an equal chance in life. Not everyone has that equal chance right now, and it seems to be getting worse.

Re:laws

[Anonymous Coward]

I was once pretty much required to take a road side test.

A bunch of kids in a truck in front of me tossed a full beer can out the window when they illegally sped by and passed me on a main road. I saw an arm out the window and thought the passenger was flipping me off or something, and then saw a silver object arcing towards my car.

It was apparently a full, unopened beer can. I hit the brakes like mad. I thought whatever it was was going to hit my hood but it barely missed, bounced up after bursting, and splattered beer all over the windshield and hood, bounced up again, by this time a distance off, and skidded off the road.

I was a bit pissed someone just threw something at my car. Calmly call it in. Then had to literally chew the head off the operator because they were so passe. The other party was so stupid they pulled into where they lived a half mile up.

Cops show up finally. Note--I'm pulled over to the side of the road, parked. Officer takes all my info down and what happened. Now, there's beer suds and what not still on my hood. I think I'm going to leave soon and they're going to go talk to the other party and hopefully give them a warning or something (one of the guys, the passenger, was obviously drunk; hell, at least a littering charge) then I hear:

"Sir, I smell alcohol. Have you been drinking tonight? Please step out of the vehicle."

If I recall right, I looked up, probably with a scared, horrified look on my face, then I just paused, thought of what they were asking of me, and busted out a laugh. This, of course, pissed the cop off. Another officer had shown up about halfway through all this, enough to hear my account of the events, and he was looking at the other officer like she was nuts.

This was a Saturday night if I recall, around October 18th, 2003. Last time I had a drink? A beer February 2002. Needless to say, I passed the test and was let go. They said they would call me about the others they held, but never did. I found the whole experience rather insulting.

Re:laws

[GreyWolf3000]

I always get upset when I hear that somebody's been convicted of stuff nine seperate times! I'm like why didn't somebody get a clue and just lock the guy up forever.

Because in a free country, you only serve time for crimes you commit, not being a criminal.

Re:laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, to a lesser extent, people who have to take up to and extra 30 seconds to start up a car, but don't have that luxury due to an emergency (hospital, flight out of fear, etc.)

If you're being chased by a serial killer, a death squad or some monster, that car was never going to start in the first 30 seconds anyway.

Re:laws

[Reziac]

I was going to make the same point -- imagine if you're on a busy freeway and suddenly the car behind yours starts honking and flashing its lights. Is it an emergency vehicle that needs to come through, an imminent case of road rage, or an interlock system with bad timing? And what if you're in heavy traffic, and your car goes nuts? I know people who would promptly panic and cause a multicar pileup if their car behaved like that.

The possibilities for worse-than-one-drunk-driver are endless. You're driving home from work at 3am, and your car decides to wake the neighbourhood (and violates a variety of nuisance noise laws while it's at it), and after this happens a few times, your neighbour goes berserk and shoots you. Or you're behind a fleet of gang-bangers on a lonely road, and they take your car's blast of noise as an ill-considered attempt to tell 'em to get out of your way. (I know someone who barely escaped with her life after annoying a Bay area tong by honking at them, so this is not exactly theoretical.)

Not to mention that it'll be rough on new-car sales in New Mexico. Yeah, they'll probably pass laws like California has to prevent people from buying cars out of state (to duck our high sales tax, or whatever), but that'll just cause an increase in grey-market used cars.

Yep, a really well-thought out law. The ambulance chasers will love it... and maybe they'll come of some use, by quickly making it prohibitively expensive to keep on the books.

Not to mention that it DOES presume guilt, which you'd think could make it ripe for constitutional challenge.

Montana (once a hotbed of drunk driving) made itself inhospitable to drunk drivers with a "get one DUI, lose your license for a year" law, and more-severe penalties for repeat offenders. It worked -- DUIs dropped radically. Meanwhile, life went on normally for sober drivers, which is as it should be.

And is it just me, or are more and more laws being passed everywhere (not just in the U.S.) that make you prove your innocence or right to do whatever, rather than affecting only the convictably guilty??

The freedom pendulum does seem to be swinging back the other way.

Re:laws

[AceM2]

It's your own damn fault if you don't know when to stop.

That's oh so comforting to the mother who's just lost both her children and her husband because of a drunk driver plowed them over as they were on the sidewalk.

Do you have a problem with that statement?

Yes, because you are downplaying the effect that drinks have on you. If the drinks didn't affect you, then you wouldn't drink them correct? Even if it was only raising your BAC .00001%, there's a reason you're drinking it. That reason is generally because it helps a person "loosen up" or wind down or whatever you want to call it... My point is, it's the same thing that kills your judgement. However, I never said that you shouldn't be allowed to have a few drinks, in fact, my entire post was about how the restaurants/bars/etc should show some responsibility in how they serve their customers and when they should say enough is enough, or call them a cab... Or whatever you can do to keep drunks off the road.

I also agree with you that cops could spend their time and money better elsewhere, however... One cannot say that a lack of checkpoints etc is going to suddenly mean there's now a cop in sight whenever someone's visibly drunk. You're going to get more dangerous drunks off the road if you're checking more people who are potentially dangerous, if that makes sense. I mean we can talk all night about how cops should be looking for the crack dealers instead of the pot users, the muggers and thieves instead of setting up sting operations to get prostitutes and such.. etc etc.. We'd probably agree on a few things.. That's not the point though, and I'm not saying I know how to catch all the drunks including the ones that get hammered at home.

All I'm saying is, restaurants and bars need to be more careful about how much they allow people to drink and then drive. There are a lot of good establishments out there, but there are plenty that'll give you a bottle of vodka and send you on your way as well. You want to change how law enforcement in your area works? More power to you, I'm on your side.

That's a pretty stupid and FUD laden analogy. Anthrax spores have no legitimate purpose.

Well... One big one is research... Another thing is just the idea that I should have a right to responsibly own whatever I want, and you have no business telling me what I can or cannot have within my own house. I'll thank you not to harass me for being a biochem freak who wants to be able to do hands on research. I'm no more of a menace to society than you are...

I shouldn't be punished because some people are incapable of exercising this maturity.

If you already limit yourself and have transportation set up... Then how are you being punished? Like I said in my original post, I don't want to take away your right to drink. All I have been saying is that we should force people to make mature decisions even if they are not so mature themselves. It's a minor inconvenience to have a restaurant make sure you get a cab or have a designated driver. It's a time when the good (saving lives) outweighs the bad (5 minutes of your time and the restaurant/bars). If the establishment was smart about it, they'd even set up their own drivers, or get a contract with the taxi company so that they can make a little money on the side.

No, actually they don't. It's not their problem. If they see a known alcoholic with five DWIs under his belt drive up in a car then they shouldn't serve him. That's common sense. But I'll be damned if I'll go to an establishment that's going to treat me like a child that's incapable of making my own informed decisions.

Well, we all have priorities... and I can't force you to be okay with a minor inconvenience (that really isn't e

Whatever happened....

[Peden]

...to taking peoples licence away from them, or basing fines on a percentage of the yearly income, like they do in Finland, people would think twice then. Recently a man was fined about 200.000 Dollars for speeding, he was a CEO, he will definately think twice. How long before someone constructs a hack for this breath analyzer?

Re:Whatever happened....

[Green Light]

Wouldn't a balloon full of air serve as a "hack"?

Re:Whatever happened....

[Anonymous Coward]

And how's taking the license away stopping people from drunk driving? As a fellow Finn, I've read about people who have been caught driving under the influence for about 40 times (without the license, of course) before they actually get locked up.

Re:Whatever happened....

[2000 Britneys]

Hell u can take the licenses away and they will still drive . License is just a piece of paper / plastic with a fine attached to it if u drive with out it.

The Idea is interesting however the "big" brother approach will not do, scoze the people that never drink and drive will revolt and sue the pants out of every one attempting to bring such a law into existence

Re:Whatever happened....

[Boing]

Are you planning to carry around multiple pre-inflated balloons in your car all the time? Because it strikes me that inflating a balloon with your breath, then using the balloon on the interlock, is still essentially equivalent to breathing in the interlock for yourself.

Re:Whatever happened....

[FauxPasIII]

> Now that's what I call one law for the rich and one for the poor!

So you feel that the poor should be fined in such a way as to seriously impact their monthly food budget, while the rich should be fined in a way with no discernible impact on their lives whatsoever? Why should the poor be punished much, much more severely for the same crime?

Re:Whatever happened....

[trash eighty]

fill it before you start drinking of course

Re:Whatever happened....

[Rostin]

Depends on how clever it is. Your breath comes out at apporximately body temperature, for example, and making the air in a balloon body temperature plus or minus a few degrees would be tough.

Re:Whatever happened....

[den_erpel]

Nah, most ppl that actually do drink and drive (have a habit) will have some switch installed hidden for the police. Teenagers with motorcycles and truck drivers have all kinds of technical restrictions built in/imposed and it's common knowledge that a large part of them has such a contraption.

The police normally don't bother to take the vehicle apart to find the hidden switch...

I would have to agree that more testing and more testing is the only successful way (like they do over here around new year (december/january: drinking under influence drops significantly, only to rise again in february :-/).

Re:Whatever happened....

[AVee]

Well in the case of drunk driving you could just as well charge people with attempted murder IMHO.

Here in Holland you risk losing not just your license but also your car if you drive drunk or are caught speeding. People without a car are less likely to be found driving without license ;)

Re:Whatever happened....

[drunk_as_in_beer]

then only outlaws will have balloons

Re:Whatever happened....

[Sancho]

"Whatever happened..." indeed.

From a link link further down the page....

PRODUCT AND DESIGN FEATURES

Hum Tone: Requires the client to deliver a hum resonance while blowing the alcohol test prior to starting the vehicle. Deters techniques utilized to mimic human breath or to absorb alcohol.


This is good, if you are concerned about people faking it.


Random or Fixed Retest: Programmable. The client is alerted and given a grace period to retest after the vehicle is put into the run state. The test can be delivered while operating the vehicle or after pulling off the road. Breath test refusal or failure is recorded and sanctions are imposed, including honking of the car's horn. Deters drinking after completing a sober start and vehicle idling at bars.


Probably most useful for DUI offenders, not for everyone...but who knows how far this legislation will go?


Bypass Detect: If a vehicle is started and the breath test is not passed, the horn will begin honking until the vehicle is turned off or a breath test is successfully completed. All events are recorded. Deters hot-wiring and push-starting of vehicles.


There had better be a small amount of time that the vehicle can be driven before the test but after you start the car. Otherwise, that 30 seconds is going to be a major pain. Not only that, but what if you are fleeing from an attacker? I guess our own personal safety isn't as important as those on the road who might be killed if I end up behind the wheel drunk (which, statistically, the majority of people do not do.)


Events Log: A built-in memory chip records all events associated with the use or misuse of the device. Reports are generated through a personal computer in a summary and complete hard-copy format.


Cool.. Now when are these reports read? For DUI offenders, it's presumably fairly often. For everyone else...when? When you get your car inspected? These things had better have a pretty big memory.


Violations Reset: Programmable. If the predetermined number of violations occurs during a monitoring period, an early inspection is required within three (3) days. Failure to report will result in immobilization of the vehicle. Violations are quickly identified and reported to the jurisdiction.


Again, most useful with DUI offenders. But honestly, after one violation, I'd think that you'd want inspection.


Service Reminder Reset: Reminds the client of a scheduled monitoring check. Failure to have the device monitored within the prescribed time period results in the device interlocking.

Power Interrupt: A dated record, in the event 12 volt power has been disconnected or interrupted. The device maintains memory through an onboard back-up lithium battery. This condition (other than tampering) can occur when a vehicle's battery is disconnected due to repairs or is replaced. Clients are required to provide documentation of repairs.


Whoa whoa whoa.... So if my battery dies, I'm fucked? No documented repair. This absolutely is only good for DUI offenders, because frankly, it's an unreasonable burden on your average person. I change my own batteries. There are also times when I take the battery off for other reasons. I should just be able to, period. Demanding documentation as to why the battery was removed is simply unacceptable unless there is good cause to believe that I was trying to get around the system.



Vehicle Restart: In the event of a vehicle stall, the driver has a grace period during which the ignition can be turned off and re-engaged without having to submit an additional breath test.

This somewhat mitigates the 30 second timer, but it also leads me to believe that that timer is a hard limit, and that this device actually prevents the car from being started until the check has completed. That's scary, to me. 30 seconds is a long time. Get a stopwatch, go outside, sit in your car for 30 seconds. It's an unreasonable imposition for someone who has neither broken the law, nor has a history of alcohol problems.

Re:Whatever happened....

[shawn(at)fsu]

to taking peoples license away from them Do you know how many people my father arrests for driving with out a license, allot of the people that lose the license simply don't care, just like people driving with out insurance.

I heard a rumor in one of my Criminology classes that one state was talking about seizing a persons car is convicted of DUI, kind of like drug smuggling. I think that would make you think twice, and if you didn't and lost your car it would make people think twice about letting you using their car.

Re:Whatever happened....

[InfiniteWisdom]

There had better be a small amount of time that the vehicle can be driven before the test but after you start the car. Otherwise, that 30 seconds is going to be a major pain. Not only that, but what if you are fleeing from an attacker? I guess our own personal safety isn't as important as those on the road who might be killed if I end up behind the wheel drunk (which, statistically, the majority of people do not do.)


I agree with you for the most part... except this. I think an overwhelmingly larger number of people drive drunk than have to flee for their lives from an attacker. Or maybe I'm just luckily to live in a part ofthe country where we don't get attacked that much,

Re:Whatever happened....

[Kadagan AU]

I think there's a point where you need to ask "who really owns your car?" I thought that I owned my car, since I bought it outright with cash. It seems to me they're saying that the government owns your car now. When they're requiring you to document when you remove your battery, that's going way too far. I had a bad alternator once, and my battery died pretty frequently until I figured it out and replaced it. I did all the work myself, and the only documentation I have is the receipt for the alternator. The only reason I saved that is because it's got a life time warranty ;). The car is mine, and while on my private property I should be able to do whatever I like with it. There is no reason that a law should be passed having this great of an affect on so many people, when it's meant to deter a slim minority.

Re:Whatever happened....

[EvlG]

Having to retest while the car is in motion seems like something that could cause accidents to me!

Imagine going down the freeway at 60+mph and having to fiddle around for the tester to keep the car running! Your options are

1) Take your eyes off the road and concentrate on the test

2) Don't test, and hav ethe car stall

Neither of these sound especially safe to me.

Re:Whatever happened....

[ncr53c8xx]

Cool.. Now when are these reports read? For DUI offenders, it's presumably fairly often. For everyone else...when? When you get your car inspected? These things had better have a pretty big memory.

Cool. A big brother surveillance device has just been implanted with a "save the children" angle. Do they use 1984 as a manual?

Hum Tone: Requires the client to deliver a hum resonance while blowing the alcohol test prior to starting the vehicle. Deters techniques utilized to mimic human breath or to absorb alcohol.

Anyone else see the South Park episode with "IT"? :-) Looks like the controls are gaining popularity.

I change my own batteries. There are also times when I take the battery off for other reasons. I should just be able to, period.

Changing your own batteries? What are you, a communist? :-D

Re:Whatever happened....

[rarose]

Look at it this way: It *everybody* had one of these on their cars then muggers/rapists/murderers/etc will know that anybody they see entering their car will be a sitting duck for 30 seconds.

Re:Whatever happened....

[Safety Cap]

Your breath comes out at apporximately[sic] body temperature ~.

Riiiiight. So that means that your car won't start if you just drank a cold soda or hot coffee. Or you have a fever. Or the air is humid or dry. Or it is winter and you are in Chicago when the wind is blowing off the lake.

Rather than rely on urban legend like how sucking on pennies or eating underwear will make your breath heat up to "body temperature" and then you'll pass the test, you can get the actual scientific information behind how a breathalyser works.

On the other hand, this plus this will make any NM car drivable by even the drunkest felon.

.

.

.

Q. How do you know you're posting on slashdot?

A. 503 Service Unavailable
The service is not available. Please try again later.

Re:Whatever happened....

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Hell u can take the licenses away and they will still drive . License is just a piece of paper / plastic with a fine attached to it if u drive with out it.

So do it right: DUI (real DUI, not drunk in a car in a parking lot) loses you your license forever. Get caught driving without a license that you lost because you were DUI, go to jail.

Re:Whatever happened....

[drinkypoo]

I'm sorry, you claim that teenagers with motorcycles commonly have a limiter disable? A limiter on what? First, there would have to BE a limiter. Most bikes are still pretty manual devices, they don't use electronic controls, so there's not even a rev limiter. Some of the newer bikes are coming out with fuel injection so at that point it makes more sense to run everything electronically but they don't usually have speed limiters.

If anything is hidden in a teenager's vehicle, it's beer, or a nitrous bottle. The nitrous switches are often hidden in the ashtray. People usually don't put nitrous on motorcycles, because there's no point, but it's possible.

Re:Whatever happened....

[mackinaugh]

If this is the case, then a better solution might be stiffer penalties on people who drive without a license rather than creating new laws with new penalties, and new costs associated with implementing the apparatus, no?

Re:Whatever happened....

[poot_rootbeer]

I think an overwhelmingly larger number of people drive drunk than have to flee for their lives from an attacker.

Irrelevant. If only one sober motorist is unable to flee from an attacker due to this device and it costs them their lives, the technology is unacceptable.

Re:Whatever happened....

[rark]

There are laws, federal and state, that mandate certain safety features and outlaw things that are considered unsafe In MA, those running lights that some car-modders are so fond of are illegal. In most states there is some form of safety inspection that must be passed before a car can be registered. And for the most part, this all makes sense. It's not really an unreasonable burden to pay something under $50 (I don't know of a state where the safety inspection costs more, but I haven't lived in all states, either) and wait in line/wait for them to check your car once every year or two in order to make the roads safer for everybody. None of us really wants a car with no brakes out on the road.

But this is ridiculous. First, because it's an unreasonable financial burden on *somebody*, whomever has to pay to put a huge number of devices in every car. Second, because if all of those devices are enabled (the legislation says that the devices have to be installed, but doesn't mention if they have to be enabled or not), it is a significant burden on every driver in the state, for reasons that have been well discussed here.

I hope it gets knocked down as unconstitutional.

Will last about 1/2 hour...

[R2.0]

Until I take it out.

Ignition interlocks are a tool for those who need them. They are monitored strictly under the guidelines of whatever court ordered it. Just throwing them onto cars without the monitoring is simply a waste of time.

This has been tried before. Anyone remember seat belt interlocks from the early 70's? Didn't think so - that's how long that bright idea lasted.

Re:Will last about 1/2 hour...

[Tassach]

Until I take it out.

A few problems with that plan:

1. It will probably be a crime to disable the device. This could turn a simple speeding ticket into a trip to the pokey.
2. New Mexico has periodic (annual, IIRC) vehicle safety inspections. If your interlock were disabled, you wouldn't get your inspection sticker and couldn't legally drive your car.
3. As you mention, interlocks now are used by court order only. This is Constitutional and reasonable. Someone needs to re-educate Mr. Martinez about the Constitution:

   Amendment V
   No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Re:Will last about 1/2 hour...

[garcia]

New Mexico has periodic (annual, IIRC) vehicle safety inspections. If your interlock were disabled, you wouldn't get your inspection sticker and couldn't legally drive your car.

And this is why you join the ranks of plenty of other US citizens in registering your car out of state. People in MN do it all the time because of the fucking bastards in MN that charge astronomical rates for license plates and taxes on those plates (ie I pay taxes on the price of my car that are $3000 more than what I actually paid because the State gets to determine how much I paid not the dealer).

Re:Will last about 1/2 hour...

[phiala]

New Mexico has periodic (annual, IIRC) vehicle safety inspections. If your interlock were disabled, you wouldn't get your inspection sticker and couldn't legally drive your car.

Depends on where you are... I lived in Las Cruces for 4 years (way down south), and was never required to have my car inspected. Albuquerque/Santa Fe area does have inspections, I think. But you wouldn't believe some of the things I saw on the road in Las Cruces... cars with no hoods, no windshields, (no wipers was common)...

It's also dirt cheap for license & registration, I think $25 for registration and $18 for a licence (6 years ago).

New Mexico does have a really horrible drunk driving problem, and enforcement is just about useless (even the cops admit it). The court system is overloaded, and the worst offenders just don't pay their fines & drive without a license.

I'm glad I don't live there any more.

Re:Will last about 1/2 hour...

[the_mad_poster]

Heh... somehow I doubt that even if you were ejected from the vehicle through the windshield or side window (even if it were down) at 65 mph, you're body would have enough force to actually cause significant damage to a bystander unless they were standing right next to the accident already (thereby putting them in greater danger of debris and the accident itself than your flopping missile of a body). I guess it's possible that you'd beat the odds and actually smack somebody, and I guess if you got hit hard enough to accelerate your mass to such a degree that it could cause major damage you COULD hurt someone.. but it's one of those "BUT WE HAVE TO TAKE EXTREME MEASURES BECAUSE I'M CONSIDERING UNREALISTICALLY EXTREME POSSIBILITIES!!!! lol!!"

Or, in conclusion, I think whoever used that argument against you is an idiot. I also wonder at the utility of requiring people to wear seatbelts since they're only endangering themselves (lamebrain arguments about being "ejected to safety" and "trapped" notwithstanding the fact that only idiots believe them). This makes a lot more sense because you're obviously putting other people in the way of a much greater danger by driving drunk, but the fact that the government feels it can walk up to me and say 'you have to pay for this becuase that dumbass was driving drunk' is something that more than just ruffles my feathers. Here's an idea: put the dumbass in rehab, take away the license PERMANENTLY, fine the living shit out of them the first time they do it, and lock them up for a good long stint in the state pen for increasing amounts of time for each repeat.

Any vehicle that comes into my household equipped with such a device will not stay that way for long (and will only be on long enough to pass inspection each year). I can imagine there will even be a pretty quick grey market set up around easy mods to eliminate them.

Yet another idea that looks real good on paper, gets some government figures some face time, and is just a really, really dumb idea that doesn't withstand even a cursory run through the logic chain.

Re:Will last about 1/2 hour...

[alienw]

RTFA dammit. The law doesn't require them in all cars. It only requires them in all cars SOLD in New Mexico. So you can go to a neighboring state, get a car there, and use it -- perfectly legally -- in NM. Or you could remove the device from your own car, again perfectly legally.

Re:Will last about 1/2 hour...

[ehiris]

New Mexico has periodic (annual, IIRC) vehicle safety inspections. If your interlock were disabled, you wouldn't get your inspection sticker and couldn't legally drive your car.

How is the guy who tests if the interlock is working going to drive home?

Re:Will last about 1/2 hour...

[Libertarian_Geek]

"as well as random 'rolling retests' to discourage others from taking the test for you. These rolling retests require the driver to take the test as the car is moving. If the driver fails a retest, the horn sounds and the lights flash until the car is turned off"

Wouldn't these rolling retests be at least as distracting as using a cellphone while driving?

Could have been worse...

[__aaveti3199]

They could have asked for rolling urine samples and performance anxiety would have cleared the roads of cars.

Um, why not just for DUIs?

[bigattichouse]

Um, why not install in peoples cars that have had at least one DUI or DWI or whatever?

Re:Um, why not just for DUIs?

[Bastian]

Because nowadays it's vitally important to make sure that we don't discriminate against the stewheads by unfairly singling them out. In 21st century America everyone is so very equal that DUI offenders can't possibly be any more likely to drink and drive than, say, the leader of your local Prohibition league.

Re:Um, why not just for DUIs?

[stinkyfingers]

Why do people with at least one DUI still have a driver's license? If legislators in this country want to stake claim to being serious about drunk driving, legislate stiffer penalties for drunk driving.

Re:Um, why not just for DUIs?

[Tassach]

They already do that. But (amazingly) people still drive drunk, so The Govenment Must Do Something For The Sake Of The Children.

All this is going to accomplish is cause every New Mexico resident to go out of state to buy their cars.

Re:Um, why not just for DUIs?

[jtheory]

Um, why not install in peoples cars that have had at least one DUI or DWI or whatever?

No, that would never work, because the drunks would just find a way to disable or trick the thing. The people most affected by this would be the regular, law-abiding folks who are too scared to try disabling it.

And wow, is life going to suck for them.

Think of a family where more than one person shares the same car, i.e., most families. Yeah, I'm gonna want to blow into the same nasty tube as everyone else, including Mom who has a horrible stomach virus at the moment, Grandpa who needs some bridgework done soon because his teeth are kinda disintegrating, and Junior who smokes 3 packs a day of the cheapest cigarettes he can find.

Don't even try to tell me that tube will be nice and pristing, either. Anyone who's ever played a wind instrument knows there's a lot of spit involved. If everyone has their own mouthpiece, does that mean you have to carry it around with you all day? What do you do when it fell out of your pocket into the urinal, but you have to get home somehow?

And good lord, what about rental cars?

Then there are the time issues. 30 seconds before you can start the car seems not too bad on the face of it. Your aren't usually driving accident victims to hospitals, and so on (though of course if you're late for work you're going to be pretty pissed off, just sitting there waiting).

Now change the situation. It's -10 F outside, and you want to start your car to warm it up, then run back inside. That's right, that remote starter you were so thrilled to get for Christmas is useless now.

Okay, now imagine your battery's low, and you can't get it started on the first few tries. If you're really lucky, the flaky power will cause some odd behavior in the breath analyser, too!

Next: what does the thing do when it breaks? When it's molded over from too much spit? Oh, just drive it to a nearby garage. Wait, did I say drive? I meant push. Unless of course it lets you start the car when it malfunctions... in which case I guarantee there are going to be a lot of "malfunctions" that people "didn't notice" so they haven't had their unit fixed.

</sarcasticRant>

I applaud the sentiment -- drunk driving is a serious problem and needs continuing efforts to stop it -- but this seriously affects the quality of life for NON-offenders without even significantly helping the problem.

Re:Um, why not just for DUIs?

[ThisIsFred]

Because as neurotic, overreactive safety-hounds get their way in our societies, legal fixes like this lean more toward prevention (pipe dream or perhaps totalitarian nightmare) than relying on the responsibility of the citizen, or even a good balance. Simply put, making only the DWIs use it means they will be missing potentially dangerous drunks that haven't been caught yet. I'd also say something about rehabilitated drinkers, but this law punishes non-drinkers too, so it's pointless.

So, once again, our government is pursuing a technology that authorizes the use of some item deemed too dangerous to operate for "us" ignorant subjects. We've already been through this with biometric auth in handguns. Look: A car ignition system is a fairly simple device to understand. All that fancy stuff like a think steering column guard, steel keyhole guard and double-sided key- it just protects two wires. Cross those two wires, and a relay shuts and spins up the starter. There is going to have to be a whole other agency to inspect these vehicles for compliance. It will be prohibitively expensive. The random tests would be more of a distraction than a loud radio and wireless phone combined. It won't be 100% accurate (oops, you used a strong mouthwash this morning?) What's to stop a driver from drinking until he is intoxicated while he is driving around?

If DUI is such a runaway problem in NM, why don't they:

1. Put a freeze on liquor licensing for about 10 years.
2. Raise taxes on alcoholic beverages to...
3. ...hire more highway police
4. Suspend licenses for a minimum of 90 days after a DUI arrest
5. Have police include popular bars and package stores in their routes at night (very effective way to catch drunks in the Northeast).

I see a lot of huffing about blood alcohol levels, but I've yet to see a study that includes information about where the drunks are coming from. Do they drink at home? Do they drink in a bar? Do they go to a package store and drink while they drive home?

Re:Um, why not just for DUIs?

[drinkypoo]

How about, why don't they lock people up who have driven drunk and are caught driving drunk again? They're out on the street the next day. Here's some other ideas; terminate their general assistance, food stamps, etc. If that means that they're neglecting a child, you take the child away, of course. But don't punish the innocent in order to catch the guilty just because you're too lazy to address the real problem.

Mixed feelings

[Anonymous Coward]

The Navajo reservation doesn't allow alcohol to be sold on it, and there are often long stretches of road with no lights or anything. So, when Indians get drunk and drive home, it is significantly harder than it is, say, for me when I have too much at the BW3 5 minutes away.

I'm kinda on the fence about this one. It is a good idea, but the target market (the drunk drivers most likely to have problems) are more likely to drive old cars without this modification.

no thanks

[deviantonline]

I dont drink and drive so obviously this has no appeal to me.

We do already have this in Ontario as some sort of punishment for convicted DUI'ers and I think its a great idea for them - but as a non-drinker-and-driver I wouldnt want to deal with the inconvience on a daily basis, and I think I can speak for everyone else who fits that criteria.

Re:no thanks

[canadianjoe]

I agree. This makes perfect sense as part of a sentence for a DUI offence after your licence suspension is over.

For the rest of us, this would be just a big pain in the ass.

Re:no thanks

[Trurl's Machine]

I dont drink and drive so obviously this has no appeal to me.

Substantial delay in starting your own car plus random distracton while driving has no appeal to you?

This test is UNBEATABLE!

[karmaflux]

There's NO WAY to blow air into a tube wihout it coming from a human lung. Billows do not exist. And these things are so inexpensive, they can put two or three in each car, to make sure the passengers are sober too!

Wait, none of that is true.

What the story doesn't mention is the Special Edition model for bishops and politicians. When they fail a drunk test, a HUD shows up on the windshield and locks on to pedestrians. Makes life a LOT easier, let me tell you.

Re:This test is UNBEATABLE!

[b0r0din]

This is the dumbest law I've ever seen.
There are so many implications it's not funny.

1) Carjacker's paradise. Carjacker now has a good 30 seconds while the person is blowing into a fucking tube.

2) Disease. What about rental cars? What if a friend wants to drive you home in your car and you're sick. What if you've got Obsessive Compulsive disorder? Did they really think this through?

3) Emergency. I can't wait until someone sues the state because they couldn't get someone to the hospital because it took them an extra 30 seconds to start the fucking car OR it was life or death and they were drunk. If my kid or wife was dying and I was drunk and I had no other choice, I'd risk it.

4) People with lung problems can't drive now? What if you have asthma? Does this cause problems? I don't know but I suspect there could be problems.

They should have much stricter drunk driving laws for DUI offenders, not make breathalizers necessary for every citizen. If that becomes law and I lived there, I'd probably exit the state.

Re:This test is UNBEATABLE!

[4of12]

Special Edition model for bishops and politicians.

Here in New Mexico, that's part of the problem.

Clearly, this is an unwieldy technical solution to a social problem: drunk driving would be cured in a hurry if strict laws were accompanied by adequate funding for the courts, which are way overloaded (letting people off due to technicalities) and by an attitude shift.

Currently, there is an attitude that "taking away the vehicle of the family breadwinner" would constitute an undue hardship on some individual. Yes, it would. But having that individual kill off some other family's breadwinner constitutes what I would call "an undue hardship" on that other family.

A lot of these issues have come to a head over the past 10 years or so after a couple of spectacular fatal accidents involving drunk drivers. That, and a newspaper reporter uncovering that one guy was still behind the wheel after being arrested 27 times for DWI.

[BTW, a similar line of arguments are responsible for New Mexico's high rate of uninsured motorists on the highways. But that's another story.]

Speaking of politician stories, though, you'll like this one.

A few years back in New Mexico a member of the state legislature was arrested for DWI. (Not the first time that such an event took place.)

His defense attorney mounted an effort to get the charges dismissed based on the "human brewery defense". The argument was that food items ingested by the defendant during lunch had started to ferment in his stomach and to produce the alcohol that was certainly observed in the administered tests. [Fortunately, I don't think the defense's story was bought].

Good luck trying to leave in a hurry...

[SoTuA]

...after eating apples, or after brushing your teeth and using a mouthwash chaser.

It's idiocy to punish all for the idiocy of few. Why do I have to pay more and be subject to this if I don't drink and drive?

Re:Good luck trying to leave in a hurry...

[ubrgeek]

A recent (?) episode of Myth Busters proved that brushing one's teeth (or, in New Mexico, tooth) and using mouthwash does not affect the validity of a breath test.

Re:Good luck trying to leave in a hurry...

[cdrudge]

Did you actually watch that episode? In case you didn't, the one guy swished around some mouthwash, he blew a .48 BAC. Note that the legal limit is .08 in most (all?) states. Now that .48 tapered down quite quickly, but it still obviously effected the results and brought in doubt as the the true accuracy of his BAC. Most likely a cop would retest after a few minutes of observation if a person belew a .48 since many wouldn't even be conscience at that level.

Re:Good luck trying to leave in a hurry...

[DivideX0]

The mythbusters episode was using mouthwash to HIDE the presence of alcohol. There are instances where mouthwash gives false positives for alcohol. This was not covered by mythbusters. In fact, some brands of mouthwash do contain alcohol such as Listermint.

Re:Good luck trying to leave in a hurry...

[Fishstick]

> A recent (?) episode of Myth Busters

OT: That show rocks. It's the new "junkyard wars" except those two are insane and like to destroy things.

I watched the episode this week where they tried to prove/disprove that cellphones caused gas station explosions. When that obviously didn't work, they turned to the theory that women's panties built up static electricity as the source of ignition. They built a leyden jar and charged it by rubbing a pair of panties on a length of pvc, and then discharged it it a lexan booth filled with gas/air mixture.

BOOM! The one guy had all the hair on one side of his face singed off. They also microwaved CD's and spun them at crazy speeds to see what point they shattered (to explore the myth that 52x readers cause disks to shatter). Hell, we used to do stuff like this is my Dad's garage, but no one ever offered _us_ a TV show!

I missed the one with the breathalyzer though (should never have showed the kids how to manipulate the season pass on the TiVo -- I got "Totally Spies" instead of that episode).

Re:Good luck trying to leave in a hurry...

[Politburo]

The Federal limit is .08 BAC. That means a state must set their limit to .08 or lower to recieve federal highway funds. I believe Alaska is the only state that does not recieve federal highway funds. Their drinking age is also 18. Federal law states that the drinking age must be 21 to recieve federal funding. States' rights? They're a red herring.

Re:Good luck trying to leave in a hurry...

[Ralph Wiggam]

Has anyone else noticed that Republicans yell about state's right right up until a state tries to do something they disagree with? When a state tries to let 19 year olds drink or let cancer patients smoke pot, where do all of those state's rights conservatives run off to?

-B

But,

[deltagreen]

but, but, what about all those movie scenes where's it the middle of the night, and the woman desperately tries to start her car, while the stalker is running towards her. I'm sure that the 30 second breath test will be the death of large numbers of movie babes...

Re:But,

[Sancho]

Also, consider the rolling retest. If they think driving while talking on a cellphone is bad, imagine trying to grab the tube, bring it to your mouth, and then blowing forcefully (enough that some people with low lung capacities can get dizzy and light headed). Cute.

Although the fact that rolling retests are possible means that it should be possible to let the car start and drive away without a test, but if a test isn't taken within, say, 60 seconds, then the alarms start going off, etc. Solves the "quick getaway" problem, though then we are back to the issue of fumbling with the gear while you're driving.

April 1st already?

[eatdave13]

Wow. Either I overslept and it's April 1st, or they hate selling cars in New Mexico, because there's no way in HELL I would ever buy a car with one of those things on it.

Seriously, this has got to be a joke. I could almost understand it if it was required that anyone convicted of a DWI have one.

Creative punishment

[kefoo]

Ohio has an interesting way of discouraging drunk driving. Anybody caught driving drunk has to get yellow license plates, so everybody will know they have a DUI.

Re:Creative punishment

[the argonaut]

Ever wonder why New Mexico's license plates are yellow?

Re:Creative punishment

[Tassach]

Ah, a scarlet letter law that not only brands the offender, but his or her entire family. That sounds like a really good idea.

<sarcasm>After all, if they're related to a criminal they must be criminals themselves, so we better be safe and lock them all up.</sarcasm>

Re:Creative punishment

[peeping_Thomist]

In addition to the shame angle, having yellow license plates is helpful in itself, because if other people see yellow plates on the road late at night, you know to give that car extra space. There've been lots of times I was driving behind someone who seemed to be DWI, but couldn't really be sure. Seeing the yellow tag would be one more piece of evidence I could quickly assess to get the big picture.

Where to start ....

[IamGarageGuy 2]

First off, this is insanity at a new level. 30 seconds to start your car?!?!!
The real point is the argument for drunk driving. Now don't get all up in arms hear but listen first. In the US you are innocent until proven guilty. This is one of the first laws that convict a person before he has committed any wrongdoing. I am all for throwing the book at somebody who has maimed or killed another after getting behind the wheel, but when that person has not harmed another and we presume he will that is being guilty before any crime has been committed. If I hold a knife while drunk, does that mean I should be liable for stabbing an innocent bystander before the crime has been committed? Constitution? Liberty? Freedom? They are all thrown out the window in the fight against that evildoer known as the drunk driver. I should note that I do not drive after drinking, not because of the law but because I am a responsible person who believes I should be responsible for my own actions.

START THE FLAMES !!!!!!

Re:Where to start ....

[stevelinton]

In a rather chilling experiment a few years ago, someone took a group of professional long-distance lorry drivers. Sober, on average, they would confidently drive their lorries at 30+MPH through a gap 6 inches wider than the lorry, slow down for narrower gaps and refuse gaps narrower than the lorry. These men (I think they all were men) routinely drank 10 to 20 pints of beer at a session when socializing. The experimenters gave them 1/2 pint each and allowed time for it to be absorbed. Now, they would confidently attempt to drive their lorries through spaces 1/2" NARROWER than the lorry at 30+ MPH.

In other words they thought they were still safe drivers (and they were well under any blood-alcohol limit), but in fact they were dangerously overconfident.

I respectfully suggest that you are doing the same thing.

Re:Where to start ....

[vidarh]

Since when did a 30 seconds delay to the start of your car journeys constitute a conviction or punishment for anything?

Do you consider regulations requiring use of seat belts a nuisance too? What about places where lights needs to be turned on during daytime and you have to spend two seconds flicking them on? Or all that time and money spent to ensure your car passes safety regulations?

As a drive, you will already be spending a lot of time and money that are related to ensuring the safety of yourself and others already, even though you might always drive responsibly and be perfectly capable of compensating for any technical problems with your car. How is this any different?

Re:Where to start ....

[LokiSteve]

Lets say that you were a volunteer firefighter. The safety of others depends on how fast you can get your butt on that truck and out the door. 30 seconds isn't a lot of time when you're heading to the grocery store to pick up some ramen noodles, but it is a hell of a long time when you're waiting for help. What if there is a false reading or an error in the system? Now you have a full minute wasted, sitting in your driveway.

Another situation. Your kid is sick. You need to take him to the hospital, your hands are shaking. Are you going to be able to activate some interlock?

Most likely, people living on the border will just travel to another state to buy a car, that'll do wonders for the economy. Now car dealers will loose money because they have to install interlocks, and can't sell cars because most people just go out of state anyway.

These issues haven't come up much because of the few people that have interlocks installed, but will become much more common if a whole state has them installed.

Oh this makes sens... huh?

[zzyzx]

So I'm driving in the snow trying to make a difficult manuver when I suddenly have to take my eyes off of the road, find this hand held device (a photo of one of these interlocks is here), breathe into it, and if I don't the horn will start going off. Explain to me again how this bill promotes safety.

Re:Oh this makes sens... huh?

[Smallpond]

You're right. It should do periodic test of your ability to focus by playing the sound of a baby crying in the back seat and checking that your steering doesn't become erratic.

There should also be a periodic eye exam for older drivers where an eye chart drops down in front of the driver and they have to read off the bottom row.

Its clearly the auto makers who are at fault in every accident by letting unqualified drivers operate their cars.

What About Non-Drinkers?

[GTRacer]

Why should people like me who don't drink have to deal with this thing? Either by having to use it or when selling the car?

I don't live in NM, but I can see where feel-good laws like this could spread very quickly!

GTRacer
- Probably *need* to get drunk

Re:What About Non-Drinkers?

[DaHat]

However you do have a better chance of being killed by a drunk driver then a terrorist while on US soil... still both are crazy as they are simply attempts to make the public feel safer rather then actually solving the problems in the first place.

Excuse for the cops

[Washizu]

"No officer, she wasn't taking my breathalyzer for me. She was just giving me road head."

A device called Pass Time

[Botchka]

I am going through something similar. I've just purchased a used car and in order to get any type of financing, they are installing a device on the car called "Pass Time". Basically this device gets installed between my key and the ignition and emits a friendly chime when I turn the key to on. After the friendly chime, I can start my car. This may sound innocuous enough, but in order to start my car, I have to punch in a six digit code every month in order to start my car. When I make the payment, I get the six digit code and I can use the car I pay for for 30 days. Oh but they are so sweet.....I get a 9 day grace period after the due date when the friendly chime beeps a little longer. After that, the car is dead as a door nail until I make a payment and get the six digit code. Nich huh? And it's not being installed because I have crappy credit.....no...it's being installed because I've only been in this area for 9 months as opposed to 2 years! It's an outrage and I feel less than human. I've NEVER been late on a car payment and I show 5 paid off car loans in my lifetime. You may say that we could have walked (which I almost did) or gone elsewhere, but we tried. This was pretty much the only way for my wife and I to get a loan for a frickin USED car.

Common sense, anyone?

[Lord Grey]

This is utterly ridiculous.

American society seems to be on this trend toward sweeping laws, regulations and decisions that are targeted to only a few individuals but affect everyone. A mandatory ignition interlock is yet another example of this trend.

It seems to me that when a solution to a problem adversely affects more of the population than the problem itself, the solution is wrong. Is that too simple a concept to grasp?

Why not sooner???

[SenseiLeNoir]

My friends girlfriend died from a crazy nut driving a car whilst drunk. My friend still hasnt gotten over it.

Laws are simply not working enough, The UK has some of the most draconian drink driving laws, yet still many drink and drive. The alcohol clouds the mind into doing things it wouldnt do.

Drinking and Driving ruins lives (taken from UK government slogans). Whatever can be done, shoudl be done.

Re:Why not sooner???

[AgentAce]

People die every day for various reasons and in various ways. Nothing is going to stop that, especially not some moronic law like this one.

Nobody likes for people to die, so let's make a law against cellular decay!
Natural selection...it's a process...not only for "survival of the fittest" but also for "being in the wrong place at the wrong time."

America is becoming a scary place with so many of these thoughtless laws brewing. Americans are so damned scared of everything. Patriot Act, this stupid thing...insurance for every damn thing one can imagine...what the hell is this? We end up working away our entire lives for this illusion of safety and end up not being able to actually LIVE.

Slashdot interlock

[CaptainAlbert]

While we're at it, can we have a device which detects whether slashdot readers are on crack and refuses to give them mod points if they are?

Example of what the Road to Hell is Paved with

[KarmaOverDogma]

Good intentions.

on it's razor thin surface surface this looks just good enough to attract legislators attention.

Until we see all the various problems that will occur later:

1) the device gets removed by a smart enough technician
2) people use ballons with "sober air" to defeat the system
3) All state drivers get charged for a device that presumes guilt (constitution, anyone?)
4) repeat offenders still kill
5) out of state rentals are used and someone gets injured/permanently disabled/killed from a drunk driver in one
6) insert your "I've just lost more rights" scenario here.

I've always felt that if you put enough monkeys into the statehouse they could end up making laws that may actually do some good (just like the joke that enough monkeys in front of a typewriter could make a work as good as shakepeare).

.

Re:Example of what the Road to Hell is Paved with

[WTFRUDOINBiotch]

Also notice from the article

If you allow the horn to sound for 4 minutes then you will get a Violation that must be reported to the court.

Tell me how this thing reports back to the court without violating my rights...

Re:Example of what the Road to Hell is Paved with

[Gabrill]

Standard vehicle inspection will be flagged to report to the court.

Part of the Problem

[vjmurphy]

I lived on or around the Navajo reservation for a long time while growing up in New Mexico. Part of the problem for communities in those areas is that alchohol was not allowed to be sold on the reservation. So, every Friday and Saturday, you had a great number of people hopping into their cars and trucks, making the 30-70 mile trek to the closest bar/liquor store.

Then those people would drink and drive that 30-70 miles back to the reservation. Trust me, you did NOT want to be on those roads at night those days.

I'm not sure this plan will help that situation at all: generally, when one is drunk and weaving in and out of the lane, having the horn and headlines turn on and off probably isn't going to stop you at that point. And on the reservation, at least, you won't be seeing that many cops on the road.

Perhaps a lot has changed since I left (I know, for example, that drive through liquor stores are no longer allowed). But I do know that there is no quick fix for the problems of drunk driving in New Mexico.

Re:Part of the Problem

[Big Bob the Finder]

When I moved to New Mexico in 1994, I had to take a special course (as did all immigrants to the state), which was very anti-drunk driving. I remember being in the room with a bunch of very pissed-off people, as the angle was that the state's drunk driving problem was the fault of people moving into the state; if memory serves, the class wasn't required of residents that were getting their DL for the first time. It was just stupid.

I spent several years as a firefighter in the state, with a fire department that covered >25 miles of interstate. Lots of drunk drivers piled it in over that time on that stretch of road, but the problem was much worse once you got off the interstate. The drive-up liquor windows went away, yes- but I think the only effect that had was on my roommate at the time, who was bound to a wheelchair and found it much more convenient to pick up a couple of beers on the weekend via the drive-ups.

New Mexico has a long way to go in terms of bringing itself to the modern day. Enforcement is also a big issue; in the areas where the police AREN'T corrupt, they're usually so sparsely placed that they simply can't cover it. Catron County is something like 3x the size of Rhode Island, and has only two state police officers to cover the entire area at any given time. It's amazing.

Re:Drinking and driving?

[dknight]

So, just to get this straight.. You dont approve of this, but you think it would be a good idea to have a device in a car that wouldnt allow for designated drivers? "Whoops, sorry guys, I cant drive you home, the sensor is picking up how drunk you all are, and wont start the car"

This is a problem that cant be solved so simply.

brilliant idea for asthmatics

[kcurtis]

I suffer an attack and hop in my car to go to the doctor, or to get an inhaler at the pharmacy. Or I'm driving down the road and have an attack, and the stupid horn/lights thing goes off.

Or I'm camping, and not near phones.

Oh, wait. Sorry. Can't blow enough air? That's ok, because the state is small and there aren't long stretches of desert or open roads.

Or not.

Then there is the issueof people with emphysema or other permanent breathing diseases/disorders? Guess they'll have to fork over money for exemptions, and paying for disabling the device.

Thoughts...

[j0hnfr0g]

Ignition interlocks require a breath test

What about a (small) device that just blows air into the breath sensor?

which takes 30 seconds to complete, to start the car

How about you can start the car but can't put it in gear? That was during those 30 seconds you could at least have the car start "warming up".

If the driver fails a retest, the horn sounds and the lights flash until the car is turned off.

If they are drunk enough, they won't even notice (or they will think they are a police officer themselves - that's not good).

Bad idea

[Steffan]

I think any law which places a burden on many citizens to police the actions of a few is misguided and sets a bad precedent. In addition to viewing the entire state population as 'guilty until proven innocent', it imposes the burden of the change upon the people. The article mentions a 'tax credit' to be given to car owners converting their vehicles, but makes no mention of low-income residents who might not be able to pay for the device and then wait for a refund.

Of course, the first thing most people will do to avoid the inconvenience is disable the system. Therefore this law will inevitably be followed by yet more legislation to make disabling the system illegal, to make selling any device for disabling the system illegal, and probably, to even criminalize the mere dissemination of information on how to perform such modifications. Oh, and of course, an agency would have to supervise the installation of such devices, with 'authorized dealers','inspection stations', and certification, adding another layer of bureaucracy and expense to this ill-advised undertaking.

If you live in NM, please take the time to phone or fax your representative and voice your opinion. A law like this is the first step to a police state with presumptive-guilt laws.

You want me to do what?

[jpellino]

You want me to sit in one place in my car for a half a minute every time I start it?
Even if it stalls at a light?
Even if I'm being chased by pirates?
Even at the gas pump?

You want me to take a breathalyzer test while underway?
You've seen the all-out exertion needed on an admissable, accurate police test - you mean like that, while underway?
I'm not supposed to be using a cell phone underway, but you want me to have to stop what I'm doing and use this?
And if I fail, I'm drunk, and I'll do something real brilliant and try and outdrive my own flashing lights and honking horn (y'all watch "COPS", right?)
And if I was going to fail, wasn't I already too close impaired to drive and take the test long before the test randomly popped up on the dash?

How does stuff like this get to "bill" status...

But does it WORK?

[DoctorNathaniel]

Canadian-born, I'm often a political pragmatist. My first question is not "does it intefere with people's rights" but "is the interference beneficial"?

Are these tests easy to fool? I can imagine keeping a can of compressed air handy. Can they be easily disabled? How often will the car start even if the driver is drunk? What about variability for body size?

More importantly: will having such a device actually prevent people from driving drunk? If a drunk person IS driving a car started by someone else, is it really a good idea to have the lights and horn start going off on him suddenly? How the hell do you take the breath test _while you're driving_ for heaven's sake?

To sum up: has a pilot project been done? What quantifiable success did it have?

That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[DOCStoobie]

So let me get this straight, ALL OF US will end up paying for the damned drunk drivers... Cars will definitely cost more, they will pass the cost on to consumers, not to mention the PAIN IN THE ASS of breathing into a damned tube 30 times a day. I for one think that there has to be a better solution to the problem. I thought that in this country you were innocent till proven guilty, not proving your innocence every 200 miles......

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[John Courtland]

I, for one, would hack the damn tube out of my car. I think the better solution is to actually fuck up people who DUI. Like permanent license revocations. Repeat offenders spend 5 years in a damn sweat shop. You can always have a designated driver. Or save the money for your last two shots for a cab. Obviously there are some ups and downs to this (driving at .9, for example) but there's a point at which to be firm, and this is one of them. Maybe if people see their buddies never able to drive again they won't dick around any more.

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[cgb8176]

I think the better solution is to actually fuck up people who DUI. Like permanent license revocations. Repeat offenders spend 5 years in a damn sweat shop. You can always have a designated driver.

Or maybe we could just execute them? But, oh wait, we already know that the death penalty isn't a crime deterrent. What makes you think that threatening to take away their license would work?

Besides, there is a serious logical problem with allowing a person who has been drinking to decide when he is ready to drive again. And the formulas (e.g., one drink == 1 hour) often fail, due to metabolism, body weight, food consumption, level of tiredness, etc. This would end the problem of "I haven't had anything to drink in 2.8 hours, so I think I'm ready to drive again."

Of course, an alternative to this law would be to require that all alcohol-serving establishments have a Breathalyzer easily accessible to its patrons.

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[l810c]

I've always read it as .09 Percent, which would actually be .0009. Then .9 Percent would be .009.

This must be true as I don't think we could handle anywhere near 9% alcohol in our blood.

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[nelsonal]

If certain drinking establishments had a breathalizer I'd guess there would be a high score sheet next to it.

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[Sepodati]

My neighbor had one of these years ago and he would just park the car next to his air compressor. When he needed to start the car all it took was a puff from the air hose to pass the test. Now how easy would it be to keep a little compressor in your car that plugs into the cig. lighter? Bottom line: people will always find a way around it. ---John Holmes...

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[kaisyain]

The problem is that the DUI laws are ridiculously stringent, thanks to efforts by anti-alcohol groups like MADD. When talking on a cell phone (even hands free), changing the station on your car's radio, driving while tired, or carrying on a conversation with a passenger contribute just as much to accidents as having had a drink or two, why should one be punished by permanent license revocation and the others not?

How about you get rid of the DUI laws and just give people tickets for driving dangerously, regardless of what the cause is?

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[operagost]

Seeing as the average adult male has anywhere from 10 to 12 pints of blood (we'll use 10 to make the math easier), your numbers would mean that the most common legal limit (.10) is equivalent to donating a pint of blood and replacing it with a pint of pure grain alcohol!

Sounds like a party to me!

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[mbourgon]

Damn... I should've used that last week. I _definitely_ would've gotten out of jury duty.

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[Dragon218]

How come this was modded insightful? Are people really this violent and hateful of other people. It's so annoying to hear arguments from people supporting torture and capital punishment, but then hear them talk about how much they love America (not that you did, sir, I'm refering to people in general). The constitution restrics cruel and unusual punishments; execution is both of these (and your suggestion is double so).

In response to you, "If you don't like it, go to China"

Never thought I'd get to use that phrase, but these are twisted times we live in. Civil disobedience doesn't work thanks to shows like "Cops" where it's entertainment to see people getting beaten and arrested. Police corruption and vigilantism isn't called for anymore thanks to movies like "Training Day". Execution is favored by people who are pro-life.

Dogs and cats live together.

Mass hysteria.

Re:That would BLOW (pardon the pun.)

[jdavidb]

Execution is manifestly not cruel and unusual under the definition of those who wrote the amendment prohibiting cruel and unusual punishment. They all expected capital punishment to continue.

The customer always pays

[G4from128k]

The bill makes no mention of who will have to pay for the device, but it will most likely be auto dealers and citizens who have to sell their cars.

Car sellers will not "pay" for this device, car buyers will. If it costs $200 to add the device, you can be sure that car prices with rise $200 in New Mexico. This is the same logic that has government paying for things, when it is really the taxpayer that pays. Businesses, like governments, pass their spending on to customers and taxpayers respectively.

The only exception is if a business faces competition that does not have to install this gizmo. So we can expect to see some booming car sales on the borders near New Mexico.

People really need to stop looking at businesses and government as big money machines. These organizations may have lots of money, but they got it from someplace else.

Great tool for road safety

[Rupert]

As if people on cellphones weren't bad enough, now every few miles a tube is going to drop down in front of you, require you to take a hand off the controls to pull it to your mouth, and blow into it, otherwise the engine is going to cut out.

How about requiring that every car be sold with a hands-free cellphone adapter?

More save the children bullshit

[duffbeer703]

Why don't these people just get over themselves and go for prohibition again?

Drunk driving, while obviously a bad thing, is probaly the single most blown out of proportion issue in the United States.

If you actually get your hands on a study proclaiming that 70% (or whatever unrealistically high percentage) of crashes are "alcohol-related", look at the methodology. Crashes where the driver was perfectly fine, but a passenger had A DRINK were considered "alcohol-related"... as was a closed case of beer in the trunk.

Traffic statistics are among the most abused and oft cited. The folks who sell highway signs claim that 60% of accidents are caused by bad signage; police unions say that speedng causes up to 75% of crashes.

Re:More save the children bullshit

[HeghmoH]

No, terrorism is the most overblown out of proportion issue in the US.

Imagine, total invasion of privacy, random searches, mandatory ID checks, and a large hit on our right to travel, all to counteract something that has killed about 3,000 people in the US in the past five or so years, and has killed exactly zero people in the US in the past two years.

Drunk driving comes in pretty badly, though, I must admit. As does child pornography, AIDS, and lots of other things. Come to think of it, every single issue that people have used as an excuse to eliminate our rights is completely overblown. What an incredible coincidence.

Re:Drinking and driving?

[arkanes]

While I don't condone drunk driving, I think you'll find that the vast majority of drunk driving cases where a whole family is wiped out in a horrific accident are caused by people well above the limit, not by borderline cases (which is what that couple of drinks is). The real problem is people who don't think through thier ideas. For example, a sensor that detected the alcohol level in the air of the car would shut you down when you hadn't been drinking (say you were driving a drunk friend home), and wouldn't if you HAD been drinking (because you didn't drink enough to get spoppy and spill on yourself).

This is really irritating

[rhadamanthus]

I am imagining a bad scenario here:

A young woman is being chased by a large man who has the apparent desire to physically harm her with a large, blunt instrument. The woman makes it to her car, gets in and..."Damn! The breathalyzer!" Woman breathes into autmobile, menawhile the man breaks through the window with his large, blunt instrument, and proceeds to maim woman....

Now, my rant: This is so typical of government and corporations nowadays. Don't solve the problem, just inconveniance everyone under the false pretense of security! Yay, I have to be assaulted by security guards at Best Buy! A real criminal will just run out the goddam store -- the security dopes cannot do anything about it! Yay, I have to type in 50,000 character codes before installing software! The real pirates (arr) will get a code off the internet and install it anyway! Yay, I cannot rip my CD to mp3 anymore because anti-copying software won't let my CD-ROM drive see an audio-CD! Anybody can still play the CD on a player with a line-in to soundcard and rip away! Yay, "anti-terrorism" activities make me inconvenianced and stripped of liberties! Actual terrorists won't stand in nice, long lines at airports, they'll get guns and bombs and blow up people somwhere else! WHY! Why am I persecuted for someone else's stupidity?!!?!!?!!?!

I hate this shit.

--rhad the embittered and cynical

wastin' away...

[chow_mein]

Population New Mexico: 1,829,146

Estimated 1 out of every 5 people are drivers

Estimate each driver starts car approximately 4 times

Time wasted from drivers waiting for 30 sec to take stupid test: 12194 hours

And I thought I wasted time!

Dial tone interlock

[frankthechicken]

I've often wanted and required one of these placed on my mobile phone, simply for those post drinking sessions moments when it seems like an ideal moment to call my ex.

It would certainly prevent those next day conversations when she calls you up wondering exactly what you were trying to say/sing on her answering machine.

Hold on a second there.

[jellomizer]

There is a N E W Mexico?

Human Justice

[Jerf]

Support Human Justice for Human Beings.

This story is part of a larger pattern, where law enforcement thinks it can farm its job out to machines. DRM is another instance of the exact same bad idea.

But machines enforce a machine version of the law. We are human. We need fuzziness, and we need the expense of prosecution, as well. (See my linked essay for a justification of that second clause.) This is a feature of the law, not a bug!

What do you do when the machine gets a false positive? Or your life depending on going somewhere right now? Is the state going to take responsibility for the extra 30 it took to get someone to the hospital while they are having a heart attack, or on the verge of a potentially life-threatening birth??

Machines and law enforcement do not go together!

Re:This has been suggested in Sweden

[Baron_Yam]

If everyone was forced to work and live in a large compound with padded floors, ceilings, and windows, and if everyone was kept seperate from everyone else by plexiglass walls, and if everyone's food was prepared by a dietician, and if everyone requiring transportation was given a padded, computer controlled wheelchair...

The point is that saving human lives is, in and of itself, NOT a valid excuse for treating me like a criminal.

A better use

[marcopo]

would be to require breath analysis for coding. that should improve source quality. And of course a "rolling retest" for every compiler warning.

While this is clearly a ludicrous proposition, increasing penalties may not be the best thing either. Various studies (which I'll have to search for) show that by a large margin the most significant deterrent to crime is the probability of being caught. This is considerably more influential than the expected penalty. Surely there are better ways of finding drunk drivers other than such silly annoying measures (e.g. more patrols looking for people who drive dangerously).

This will certainly backfire...

[Gudlyf]

...when someone needs to rush another person to the hospital. Thirty seconds can be the difference between life and death when you need to rush your hurt kid or pregnant wife to the hospital down the street.

Then also imagine this all happening in the morning, right after you downed a couple spoonfulls of cough syrup because you weren't feeling so hot, and the car refuses to start because it thinks you're drunk.

Will the lawmakers be exempt?

[JLyle]

It's an interesting and timely story considering some recent news from Alabama. To quote Birmingham's WERC News Radio:

"The Alabama Constitution says legislators can't be arrested for some crimes while in session. Among those crimes they can be arrested for ... treason, felonies, violation of their oath of office and breach of the peace. The lawmakers began talking about changing the law after Representative Alvin Holmes was stopped last week by a Montgomery County sheriff's deputy for suspicion of drunk driving. Even though the deputy says he smelled alcohol, he couldn't arrest the Holmes, so they took him home. Holmes says he is being harassed by racist deputies."

Yes, I know the Slashdot story related a proposed bill in New Mexico, but I wonder if legislators there (or in other states) would be exempt from those laws, as is so often the case?

Send some auto-engineers in there to smack'em

[Illserve]

What an awful idea, it's just another expensive way for modern cars to stop working, as if they need one. I can't imagine such technology would be reliable over the long term, and in different weather/environmental conditions. "No sorry, can't drive today, it's too humid/dry/cold/hot."

I predict $500 repair bills for replacing $5 chemical sensor elements. I also imagine refit kits available on the internet to disable these things, or to store up sober breaths (& later reheat/hydrate them) to be used later.

I'm sure it'll reduce drunk driving, but sometimes the cure is worse than the problem. I don't want to be stranded on the motorway at negative -10 degrees farenheit because my breathalyzer is broken.

I think the US will finally have reached the end-state of its current decline into lunacy when everyone is implanted into an environmentally sealed, armored chamber at birth. We'll become the land of the bubble people. Noone can do anything, but our lifespans are .4 years higher so it's worth it.

No doubt - consider safety

[Anonymous Coward]

These people are worried about drunk drivers...I'm worried about someone who needs to get away. I don't mean to sound demeaning to women with this example but: consider a woman who is going to her car and being pursued by some lunatic. WTF? She has to hop in and use the blasted breathalizer? Is he going to wait while she does this, or break the damn window? Say she has up to two minutes before she needs to do this (start car, timer commences), it's still a safety concern. How would someone in a state of panic remember to use a breathalizer?

Fuck this. It cripples the functionality of a device (a car in this case) and can put people in harms way....only from the opposite side of what the people in New Mexico are trying to address.

interlock no, breathalyzer yes

[Mr. Slippery]

While I don't think it should be attached to an interlock, if I'm going to be subject to arrest based upon a test I ought to be able to administer that test myself. (You can buy cheap pocket breathalyzers but they are not legally binding, therefore useless.)

DUI laws are odd in that its quite possible to violate them unintentionally. When I go somewhere and have three or four beers over the course of the evening (or maybe only two if they're strong trippels), the only way I can figure my BAC is to approximate that it takes about 75 minutes to burn off one drink. But both the alcohol content of a drink and the metabolic rate of consumption are highly variable figures.

Last time I drove home from a party, sure, I waited, I felt fine, I had no problems driving, I had every intention of being within the law and believe that I complied. But I can't know for sure because the legal standard I'm held to is something I can't monitor myself.

Either the use of chemical tests for impairment should be stopped, or all cars ought to be equipped with breathalyzers just like they're equipped with speedometers.

Re:Solution

[Wyatt Earp]

In some states one can't take away one's livelyhood and that means they can't take thier vehicle.

In the US, I'd say that 80% of the West has no mass-transit and at least 30% of the East doesn't so without a vehicle there is no way to get to the job.

Again, it depends on the state. I was serving time for a non-drinking offense in '93 and a jailmate (there were two of us in the whole place) was serving 45 weekends so he could get his 90 days sentance taken care of. He'd gotten 90 days for drunk driving, but since he was an electrician they couldn't take away his job with the sentance.

Enforce those laws on the book, k?

[onyxruby]

Drunk driving is a problem, every four years or so we get enough people killed by drunk drivers to equal the number of Americans lost during all of Vietnam. It kills somewhere around 15,000 people a year. Fine, it's a problem, I can accept that. So why don't they enforce the laws they already have? Better yet, why not have a California style three strikes and your out law. Drunk drivers are a menace to society, so why not lock them up for life without after their third DUI conviction?

Having said all that, leave my car the fuck alone. It's mine, got it? Big brother riding shotgun, I don't think so. Under the auspices of the slippery slope of this program we might as well have gps governors, insurance tracking and automated tickets. Just because technology can do a thing, does not mean that is should do a thing, especially for the masses. At some point, a line must be drawn that says you may not exceed X just because technology allows you to.

Re:Enforce those laws on the book, k?

[doppleganger871]

Politicians never want to enforce the laws that are already there... that would mean someone would have to step up to the plate and be the bad guy. So, instead, they just pass new laws that are more oppressive than the laws that were never enforced. It's partially judges' faults, too. They're the ones handing out the sentences. Nobody wants to be held accountable for anything they do, so everyone rolls over and plays dead.

Remember Demolition Man? Even though that was a fictional movie, it seems we're moving closer to it every year. ::Sigh:: Time to get my self a good 'ol non-computer, carbureted vechile, with ignition points instead of electronic ignition.

A 1972 Buick Skylark GSX sounds about right...

We already do

[Anonymous Coward]

"So let me get this straight, ALL OF US will end up paying for the damned drunk drivers"

We already do in the form of higher insurance payments, loss of life and limb etc.

Re:We already do

[The_Mr_Flibble]

Yes but once all the drunk drivers are taken care of the insurance premiums will come down. Yes ? Sorry what am I thinking

Re:We already do

[Afty0r]

We already do in the form of higher insurance payments, loss of life and limb etc.

As far as I am aware, an insurance premium does NOT pay out if you are driving under the influence, so other than those few accidents where someone DUI is not discovered to be so, your insurance premiums have NOT risen due to drink driving, they have instead risen because of the compensation culture endemic in the USA.

Re:We already do

[skaffen42]

Ah, but they do pay if you are the guy hit by the drunk driver. So yes, it does affect your premiums.

Great news for the budding homicidal maniac...

[StressGuy]

We've all seen the movies....woman running from maniac with a pickaxe gets into her car and starts fumbling with the keys. Then the car won't start until after about two good pickaxe shots throught the roof.
.
Now, on top of everything else, she's got to manage to breath into a tube between screams of terror.
.
yup, great day to be a homicidal maniac.

Cash Money..... + Motorcycles??

[georgep77]

Don't worry everyone. As soon as the polititions realize that normal people will be upset for having to PAY for this it will disappear. Either that or everyone in New Mexico can just get a motorcycle!

Cheers,
_GP_

false positives...

[tuxette]

I tried to search for information on the percentage of false positives these devices give, and most of the resulting homepages had FAQs that claimed that false positives were not a problem. Howerver, I did find some interesting things beyond the mouthwash false positives, for example that cigarette smoke and acetone breath (for ex. in type 1 diabetics who either don't know they have the disease or do a poor job in controlling it, or people on Atkins) can cause false positives.

life-saving?

[verrucagnome]

I have to admit that this does seem very draconian, but imagine how much good it could bring. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/alcohol/imp aired_driving_pg2/NM.htm An estimated total of 18,710 crashes in New Mexico involved alcohol which killed 206 and injured an estimated 6,700 people. Alcohol is a factor in 35% of New Mexico's crash costs. he estimated cost per injured survivor of an alcohol-related crash averaged $98,000. Moreover, whilst it may seem expensive to implement, attaching an interlock to a car for a year after its operator is convicted of driving while intoxicated would reduce recidivism by an estimated 75% and alcohol-related fatalities by 7%. It would save almost $8,200 per vehicle equipped. Including equipment and case management costs, interlock costs would total approximately $990 per vehicle. The above numbers can't be easily worked into a system where *every* car had an interlock installed, but it does show that installation costs can be retrieved. I also thought that www.vv.se/traf_sak/t2000/909.pdf was interesting. It says that whilst using Ignition Interlocks on *just* the cars of those with DUI, is effective, but not ideal because 50% of these people have access to non-interlock cars within their family. Also, existing interlocks have security features to limit circumvention, e.g. by measuring CO2 concentrations to make sure it's expired human air. At the end of the day though, you might find some way around the interlock. In that case you'd just prosecute more heavily in those who'd circumvented and had an accident. On the other hand, 30 seconds to start your car is ridiculous. There's no reason this couldn't be reduced in the future. My diesel VW Golf takes about 10seconds to start. It seems to me that if this device was properly implemented it could almost eliminate the 6700 annual injuries that occur because of drunk driving, and at almost no cost to the end-user. Just my 0.02

Big Hole in Plan

[Wyatt Earp]

The Indian Reservations.

This law wouldn't apply to thier cars on or off the Reservation.

In New Mexico there are alot of them.
http://www.fema.gov/graphics/tribal/indian_ reserv_ r6.gif

Re:Drinking and driving?

[BoomerSooner]

Get rid of alcohol. It worked for drugs. Hell I haven't heard anything about drug usage since Nancy Regan started her "Just Say No" campaign. Too bad GWBush didn't read the papers back then.

Letter to Senitor

[MhzJnky]

I live in Albuquerque New Mexico. Below is the letter/email I sent to all the state senitors. Thankfully the bill seems dead as there will be no time to vote on it during this session. I recent local TV poll showed people were 85% to 14% against the measure

To Albuquerque Senitors:

I'd like to begin by stating that I do understand we have a large DWI problem in New Mexico. I personally lost my father years ago to a drinking and boating accident. I know the pain families feel when people decide to recklessly endanger themselves and others.

However, I must speak up about the "Ignition Lock" legislation recently passed by the legislature and pending in the Senate. As much as I want our streets to be safer this measure goes way too far in my mind. You're basically asking people to prove they're not committing a crime just to go somewhere.

I'd also like to make sure some possible ramifications to this law have been thought out. People would likely start leaving there cars running when they make quick stops. This could lead to an increase in motor vehicle theft. We are also talking about technology here, which is not always 100% reliable. What if someone gets stranded in the back country because their Interlock malfunctions? Or, if it hinders someone's ability to get moving quickly in an emergency situation? Or even the possibility of spreading disease when several people share a car.

With the projected cost of $600 you are also punishing the underprivileged. For some people they do not have that much to spend on an entire car, let alone a state required accessory. You're raising the cost of entry of vehicle ownership over the $1200 mark. For some people that's too much.

The intentions of this law are good. But monetary and societal cost seems too high. Our civil liberties are vanishing too quickly in this country, and this is a large step in the wrong direction.

Grandstanding.

[Jaywalk]

The House is just playing to the crowd on this one. "See? We're really concerned about this! Vote for us!" Since it will never get signed into law, they'll never have to deal with the consequences. Like how many accidents will be cause by someone futzing with the "rolling test" rather than looking where they're going.

If you want to use interlocks, make them a punishment on first offense DUI. Don't wait until someone gets killed before the punishments get serious. Just the threat of having to deal with the things should make people think twice about combining liquor and driving.

Re:laws - bullshit!

[Neurotoxic666]

Having a parking lot at a bar is like being an accessory to the crime

You are assuming each and everyone of us are unable to drink alcohol in a moderate way. It is not about the taxes collected from the sales of alcohol, but about our freedom.

I do not need an idiot senator or a frustrated, clueless individual like yourself to make new laws that require people to respect laws that are already there. The argument is stupid.

Maybe we could ban the internet too, eh? Making this evil technology available to the public is being accessory to crime, because we know the internet is only used to download music illegaly.

If you have an alcohol problem and you can't behave in public places, get some help. I'm certainly not willing to give away my rights just because you're a moron.

This will die in the NM Senate this morning.

[Chyeburashka]

Relax, this just is not going to happen. The NM Legislative session is scheduled to end at noon MST today, and this bill is as dead as a drunk driving victim. No real legislation will get through the NM Legislature until the elected drunks (yes, some of our NM representives have DUI convictions) are thrown out of office. Will that happen anytime soon? Probably not. Driving drunk is embedded in part of the culture here, and until that changes, we here in NM will still have our drunk driving problem. Our Governor Bill Richardson missed yet another opportunity to fix a problem which has now become known world-wide. Shame on you Bill. You let us down again.

Simple suggestion: TAKE THEIR CARS

[frankie]

I've been proposing this for years. For your first DUI/DWI, you get a fat fine and points on your license. For your second conviction, the police takes your license, and your car. For #3 and beyond, it's license, car, and go to jail. Most people will stop driving drunk pretty quickly.

It's a simple solution that's easy to implement, isn't intrusive on innocent people, and provides non-tax revenue for local government. Do any states do this? I contacted my local legislators but they weren't interested.

Re:That's just dumb

[Waffle Iron]

The consumer should have had the choice with airbags all along, but some legislator thought that because some people can't wear seatbelts -- we should all pay for mandatory airbags.

Car safety systems are optimized for the use of both seatbelts and airbags at the same time. Airbags don't just benefit the idiots who can't be bothered to put their seatbelts on; they make it safer for seatbelt wearers as well.

Moreover, the cost isn't just about your "consumer choice". If you or one of your passengers gets injured or killed in an accident, I pay more for insurance premiums or whatever other funding source is used to keep uninsured accident victims out of the gutter. You're propising to shift the cost of accident risk from your new car purchase to my taxes and insurance bills.

My aunt was killed by a drunk driver there

[holy_smoke]

I have relatives in NM, and coincidentally my aunt was killed by a drunk driver there. This drunk driver (female in this case) was a repeat offender. Folks in NM tend to do what they want regardless of the law (wild west aspect), which partly explains their DUI problem. Passing laws like this isn't going to address that _basic_cultural_issue_ in an effective manner. Those who have spent time in NM among the locals understand what I am saying.

A couple of obvious problems with the bill: What consumer would buy a car that had that feature? And if they did buy it, how long before they took it off the car? Would car companies be liable if the breathalizer read green but you got pulled over and arrested anyway? What if during a random "check" on the highway @ 65 MPH your car decides you failed and shuts down the engine? Its just too absurd to think about in a serious fashion.

Excessive Drinking is the problem, so they should focus on fixing that - not the symptom of driving while intoxicated. The current DUI laws need to be tougher and enforced with more vigor.

A prime example of ...

[galego]

Engineering Design done by a legislature:

These rolling retests require the driver to take the test as the car is moving. If the driver fails a retest, the horn sounds and the lights flash until the car is turned off.

I mean ... I'm all for reducing drunk-driving, but they obviously haven't considered the full impact of this. Just a few human factors/reality issues:

• Carmakers sued because someone couldn't get someone else/self to help in time due to an emergency situation and the person died ... since the driver had to do a breathe test. I'm not saying it's likely ... but hey, Coffee cups now have warning labels about hot contents don't they?
• Teenagers: "Let's all go caravan in our cars (or parents' cars) and nobody do their rolling retest" ... and purposely drive around annoying everyone (but I'm sure some law will cover that too, right?)
• Breath tester thingamajig malfunctions and shuts car won't start/starts tooting and winking at random internvals
• General American Populus becomes more grumpy in the AM because they are delayed 30 more seconds by breathe test.

And then the funny/unrealistic (but still possible ones)

• System mistakes unbrushed teeth/bad breath for drunkenness and sends driver home for hygiene maintenance
• Police cars winking and honking while driving down the street.
• Police (or Keystone cop) car won't start for 30 seconds while criminal speeds away (who has bypassed his system anyway). They shouldn't be 'above the system, no?
• Beneficial one here ... system becomes new alternative to 'jump-starting your car'
• New Bumper Stickers: "Stop Breathing, Start Driving"

My favourite is "stalled in an intersection".

[Moderation abuser]

Yeah baybee, SUV bearing down on you, lets see how fast you can get the tube, and don't forget to hum that little tune they taught you.

Rolling Retests? Great Idea!

[fuzzybunny]

Me: Vroom! Vroom! Yee-haa, 250km/h! *pop open a cold one to celebrate* *glug glug glug*
Car: Sir, time for a rolling re-test!
(cue: honker breathalyzer tube falling from the ceiling)
*whap!* Smack in the face!
Me: Eek!
Car: Screeech! WHAM! *flip* *roll* *bounce bounce bounce* *BOOM!* (Car explodes in kindergarten playground off shoulder of autobahn, splattering passer-bys with bits of 3-year-olds)
Me: Ooogh. Pain.
Onlooker: Well, at least he's not a traffic hazard anymore.

Sign me up...

Used cars too?

[__aafutm5472]

Interesting...so by 2009, all used cars will have to have this device installed.

I guess that'll kill the resale value of many classics. I wouldn't expect many shops in New Mexico that specialize in restoration to be very happy about this. I mean, do they seriously think that they're going to get somebody to put this device on their Model T? Gullwing Mercedes?

Tell you one thing, if this law comes to my state, I'll either move, or circumvent it. No way are my MGs having these things on them...

This could be bad.

[SeaDour]

Imagine you and your buddies are hanging around drinking some beers and watching the game on TV, when all of a sudden your friend starts having a massive heart attack. For one reason or another, the ambulence can't make it to your house (this has happened before!) and you realize you need to drive him to the hospital ASAP. Unfortunately, even though you are barely over the legal limit and your friend is about to die, you cannot start your car. This is only one situation I can think of off the top of my head where a breathalizer in your car would totally fail to serve its purpose. I also don't like the idea of having to wait an extra thirty seconds just to start my car, and I really don't understand how they could breathalize you WHILE YOU'RE DRIVING -- wouldn't that be a cell phone-like distraction?! Unless there was some sort of "hands-free" way to do it (a robotic arm? A tube down your throat?), I don't see how it's even plausible. I hope this bill gets stopped, for New Mexico's sake.

How many drunk drivers would there be...

[chrisatslashdot]

...if every state required forfeiture of the vehicle on the first DUI offense? 25 states have some sort of confiscation law now.

...if drunk drivers had to purchase a special DUI offender's license plate? Are drunk drivers any less of a public safety threat than sex offenders? Sex offender info is very public information, why not DUI offenders?

Just another example

[e2d2]

of how willing law makers are to infringe on your civil rights. First they create an infrastructure where if you don't drive you are basically crippled and then they tell you it's a priveledge.

I will protest by driving a small obnoxious electric powered 45 mph top speed car with lots of D&D stickers on the back.

This will kill people

[Julian Morrison]

...when their engine craps out on the freeway, or their car starts honking and flashing lights, startling all the other drivers. When they can't get the car started in an emergency. When it strands people in inclement weather, or in the middle of the desert. When a bug in the code sets it off without warning, or locks up and refuses to recognise a good test.

Maybe when those damn idiot legislators see the death toll, they'll learn that it takes a human to make a judgement call.

Some New Mexico Background

[esm]

I live in New Mexico (Los Alamos). The ignition interlock bill is indeed moronic; it's a poorly conceived feel-good shock tactic by ignoramus politicians.

But NM does really have a high incidence of DWI. Partly because distances are enormous and there are no alternatives to driving: no bus service, no taxis, pretty much no public transportation of any kind. Partly because population density is fairly low: this results in a low probability of any given drunk-driving session resulting in a crash, so stupid people think "hey, I've driven drunk before and had no problems, I'll just keep doing it". A large part of the problem is that penalties are nearly nonexistent. A mild slap on the wrist.

The current legislature has just passed a measure increasing penalties: you might get 2-3 years for your seventh conviction. Whoa, that will sure get the drunks off the road! Oh, incidentally, the rules aren't always too well enforced.

Vintage/Antique/Muscle Cars

[TheTomcat]

My uncle is a classic Mopar guy. So is my father.

With a '68 Road Runner, a '69 Dart, and a '72 Challenger in the collection, I'm sure they're happy they don't live in New Mexico.

There's no WAY they'd bastardize the hours and hours of meticulous restoration that they've put into these cars, with a big ugly breathing tube.

S

education and tougher laws

[martin]

have worked well on the population of the UK.

Very graphic adverts showing the results of drink driving have had a large impact.

Of course there is still the hard core of abusers who still instist on DD, but they 'tend' to be above 40 where they didn't have this hammered in from a early age.

It's become socially unacceptable to DD over here, although of course people still do..

Tough laws along with this have helped as well.

Using technology for the sake of it will only make a black market in getting around the device.

Increased policing on the issue had gone someway as the 'named driver' getting cheap/free soft drinks in some areas around various hi-days and holidays.

I think making it socially unacceptable is the key, this takes time and education, and of course the tax payer has to pay for this education.

Re:laws - bullshit!

[mjprobst]

I think you misunderstand the point of that poster. That person _also_ thought that this is stupid, but he realizes that with the legal limit going so incredibly low all it takes is one drink, plus a poorly calibrated breath tester, to screw someone over. You think that they _won't_ have the car phone home and charge you with something just for even _trying_ to drive?

I would trust this lots more if I weren't aware of the calibration problems with low-end breath testers, and I doubt the expensive units will be affordable for this purpose.

move along, show's over

[kin_korn_karn]

this is just some political crackpot trying to make a point in an election year. It'll never pass, it's too invasive. Especially out west, where people value their privacy.

This is just so wrong

[roman_mir]

I live in Toronto, Canada, and there was this idea that these breath testers should be installed in all cars. There was a radio talk-show about this, so I called in and disagreed. You see I never drunk in my life. Never had any alcohol, no beer, no wine nothing. My car is also a very expensive lease, so I never give it to anyone. So I asked them to tell me why are they going to punish me by installing this device in my car? Install in cars of those who were convicted for DUIs whatever, I don't care, but you cannot presume guilt on everyone.

Besides, those who do drink and drive will simply disconnect the device or use a fake breath blower of some sort or will have filters installed on the tube, how difficult is that?

The only real way to fight DUIs is by strict laws and severe penalties.

I'd be for this...

[iamthedarkangel]

I'd be all for this if they subsidized the cost of the part through a tax breaks AND through insurance breaks. I pay more for insurance to offset the costs of people who drink and drive when I don't drink at all.

I have too many stupid friends who drive drunk and this would end the risk to their lives and to the other innocent people they knowingly endanger. (Yes, they are too stupid to ask me to be their designated driver too since I don't drink).

Re:laws - bullshit!

[Nurseman]

realizes that with the legal limit going so incredibly low all it takes is one drink, plus a poorly calibrated breath tester

Actually, for a 200 lb man you would need >4 drinks in a two hour period. A drink is defined as 1 1/2 oz 80% proof booze, or 12oz beer/wine. This assumes a normal person, with a healthty liver.Here is a little tester Breath Wheel
As for the poorly calibrated breathalyzer, the police must maintaine records of the machine being calibrated. If you are ever stopped, refuse the field test and ask to be taken to an ER for a blood test. Make sure they use soap and water and not an alchol wipe before they draw the blood. This will be the most accurate level.

Much better solution

[multimed]

I'm a huge supporter of tough drunk driving laws--I get absolutely furious when I see fatal drunk driving accidents where the driver had been arrested 5, 10 sometimes even 15 times for drunk driving. Personally if some one close to me were injured or killed by a repeat offender drunk driver, I will try everything I can to sue the judge and state legislators for gross negligence. Education, fines, blah blah blah with these repeat offenders, they're not going to stop doing it until they kill themselves or somebody else or they're locked up in prison.

That being said, I'm also a pretty big stickler for the Constitution--I can't imagine this wouldn't be thrown out by the courts in a second. This seems like a clear cut case of a violation of illegal search & seizure laws in the fourth amendment. But the much simpler, and more effective solution is to put the ignition interlock in the cars of the people actually conviced. If you're convicte of a crime, you voluntarily surrender rights, so I see no Constitutional problem there.

The other thing I'd like to see is a different license plate for convicted drunk drivers. That way the rest of us have a little advanced warning and a little public humiliation and stigma ain't such a bad thing for people who willingly violate serious laws.

The devil is in the details.

[sbaker]

This is going to be trivial to circumvent - so the bad guys will continue to drive drunk - and law abiding citizens will pay the cost.

1) How does the car know you are breathing into it's sample tube and not squirting air into it from some other source?

2) Note that breathalyzers only produce a valid reading 15 minutes AFTER you've taken your last drink. For some of that time, the alcohol remaining in your mouth will give a false positive if you have had a drink but are well below the legal limit. For the later part of that time, the alcohol has not yet passed from your stomach into your blood stream and thence into your lungs - so you'll get a false negative for people who are already legally drunk.

So the test that happens as you get into the car could produce either a false positive (making it impossible to drive your car for 15 minutes after you've just finished a single glass of wine with a large meal) - or a false negative (allowing people who will shortly become drunk as a skunk to get their car started before the full effects are noticable in their breath).

3) Since there is also the obvious "getting your friend to start the car" trick - the initial test is essentially worthless. The whole thing stands or falls on the 'random retest'. Are we to believe that the car beeps at you and demands that you blow into a tube whilst you are driving along...all day - every day? Isn't that gonna be kinda distracting? Am I going to have to prove I'm not drunk every day I drive to work - or 50 times during a long road trip?

How often does it do it? If it's going to do it once every (say) 10 hours of driving, then that won't be a deterrent to someone who is stupid enough to take the risk of driving drunk. If it does it once an hour - then *maybe* that's a deterrent - but it's also a major pain to have to do this two or three times a day on your daily commute.

This is a stupid law.

Here in Texas, the penalty for drunk driving is pathetic - hardly more than a speeding ticket. In UK, there is a HUGE fine (thousands of dollars) and they automatically take away your driving license for 18 months (more for a second offence) - and of course your insurance premiums are going to be astronomical for the rest of your life.

Now *that* is a deterrent.

Well...

[Faw]

I agree that this is a stupid law but...

Yes, you own your car and you should be able to do whatever I like with it, but the streets are not yours, they are public property. If you want to drive in public streets you have to comply with any law they come up with.

Sunrise, sunset....

[jefu]

Sunset provisions are a great thing. However, predictable timing on them is not so good as it gives the people in favor of the law advance warning that it might expire, so they can go around and find/manufacture reasons to keep it in effect.

Most especially, think of the effect of having a sunset law for various pieces of the bureaucracy. If Department of Redundancy Department knows that their funding/enabling legislation will expire in the next year, they would then take all their time to find reasons why they are indispensable and ever so valuable. Veritable bulwark of democracy. , they are (or so you'd believe if you listened to them).

I don't quite know how it should work, but I'd propose having a "Law Lottery". Every year 20 percent of the laws would be picked at random and reviewed (really random!). This means laws would probably be reviewed relatively quickly on average. If the legislature did not vote to retain the law within one month it would be tossed out. The law would need at least a 3/4 positive vote of the legislature (both houses in the case of bicamerality) to remain in place (but no executive approval). A law could continue on an "emergency" basis for one year with a 2/3 majority but would then expire completely. The short time frame is to make it tougher to plan/fund campaigns of special interests to support it.

If nothing else it would keep our idiot bastard legislators busy enough so they'd not have as much time to meddle in everything else.

Sadly, it would not work. Someone would rig the lottery. The well funded special interests would pay well to have instant notification of a review and would have lobbyists ready to jump in at a moments notice where the citizens would probably never get notified so would not have an opportunity to speak. (I know, what else is new.) Legislatures would pass hundreds of junk laws just to reduce the probability that real laws would be picked.

But still, its a fun idea.

Re: I live in New Mexico

[nullforce]

Besides our legislature, police officers, and city council members, most of the people caught for drunk driving are driving cars that they've owned forever and wouldn't buy a new car, one with the device installed on it. I don't see how installing this device on new vehicles would solve the problem anytime soon.

There is already a law on the books that allows installing a device like this in the vehicles of drivers convicted of DWI. The judges need to be less lenient and start ordering these be installed in those vehicles. Meanwhile, we have people who've been arrested multiple times for DWI that haven't served more than a few days in jail.

Re:laws - bullshit!

[tdemark]

If you are ever stopped, refuse the field test and ask to be taken to an ER for a blood test.

If you were in Pennsylvania when this happened, let me be the first to congratulate you on losing your license for 12 months.

When you receive a PA drivers license, you agree in advance to consent to a breath test if stopped and that you understand that failure to comply will result in 12 month suspension of the license regardless of its outcome.

- Tony

Re: Devices

[A55M0NKEY]

I agree, there are so many things wrong with this assinine proposal that I hardly know where to begin.

• Nobody wants to pay $1000 extra for a device to be installed in their car to do the cop's job. For $1000 per car on the road, you could hire alot of cops...
• Easily circumvented. Anyone with a pair of wire cutters and access to a Radio Shack can bypass this.
• Ppl would buy their cars out of state to get around this
• Flashing lights! At night??!!!?? Honking horn! At night?????!?
• Violates innocent until proven guilty principle, therefore degrading.
• Will cause accidents. If you think cell phones were bad imagine hyperventilating sober drivers passing out at the wheel.
• Easily circumvented. Even if you don't like wire cutters, you can fill up a balloon with air to blow for you. ( or another low tech solution devized by the same people who can make a bong out of *anything* )
• A 0.1 BAL limit is appropriate. Sorry, 0.08 is too strict. And age doesn't affect the drunkeness of someone with a given BAL. There is no justification for 'zero tolerance' laws that are used to convict minors of drunk driving who have BAL's of 0.02 or higher. Sure, age may play a role in how many drinks *will get a person to a certain BAL* but the BAL *is* the only easy objective measure of how intoxicated someone is. A minor caught with a BAL of 0.03 maybe should be penalized for drinking illegally, but not DUI, since they were not intoxicated while driving. There is MUCH difference morally between drinking a beer that the law says you can't have, and drinking a six pack that the law says you can't have and then going for a spin. Drinking 1 beer and driving home is no different morally than drinking 1 beer at home, or drinking a six pack at home and staying there. It's what one would call responsible drinking.
  

  Of course, a minor found driving while truely intoxicated ( at the adult limit in their state ) should be convicted of DUI as should anyone else, but applying the much harsher penalties meant to deter irresponsible drunk drivers from killing people to responsible minors who drink illegally and happen to be driving home with a safe BAL that is above zero is stupid and cruel.

Car Chases!

[scovetta]

Ignition interlocks require a breath test, which takes 30 seconds to complete...

Can you imagine the car chases in movies? Good guy jumps in through the open window... fumbles with the keys as the bad guy is getting closer... puts the key in the ignition... BEEP! PLEASE BREATHE INTO THE STEERING WHEEL AND WAIT 30 SECONDS! BEEP!

how to start each of these new laws...

[swschrad]

there should be an initial period in which these de jure (meaning "because we can") laws only apply to the governor and legislators in the particular state. so, for instance, all the big suits in new mexico have to blow into their drunk-o-meters every 15 minutes while driving for a couple years, and then and only then can they remove a sunset clause in the law and apply it to the general public.

we will need a federal statute to make it happen. write your congresscritter now.

Re:how to start each of these new laws...

[jafiwam]

Holy cow, that is the most insightful, intelligent and JUST idea I have heard in a long time.

I hope you don't mind if I spread the word.

Re:how to start each of these new laws...

[ajs318]

Brilliant idea. While we're at it, can we have the management at bus and train companies, and in the public transportation departments of councils, forbidden to own cars? And the people who set the levels of welfare benefits forced to live on the amount they specify? I'm sure there are more examples. This category of thinking deserves a name.

For your own good

[jefu]

But, but, but....

They're doing it all for your own good.

Clearly all of us are too stupid, drunk, evil or whatever to make reasonable choices for ourselves. So, they should (because they have been elected and are thereby the "voice of the people", imbued with superior wisdom, intelligence and wonderfulness) make them for all of us.

And of course we should ban the internet. Thats been on the table for years.

Just think of all the evil on the internet :
Support for terrorists
Child porn
Pirated music
Slashdot
Porn in general
Drug information
Information about elected officials that they don't control

And the list goes on and on and on. Don't forget the CDA, it comes back over and over in slightly different forms - all aimed at making sure you do the right thing.

I predict a few crashes

[fudgefactor7]

These rolling retests require the driver to take the test as the car is moving.

Great, so someone has a new distraction in their car to go along with cell phones, the CD player, kids...etc. Wait until a few people wrap themselves around a tree. Then I wonder if the state may be liable for passing retarded legislation.

Good one, lawmakers. Strike another blow for stupidity!

Too low?

[sjb2016]

In Sweden, any alcohol in the system while driving is an offense. Two things need to change here it the U.S. We need to change our attitudes so that getting sloshed and having somebody else drive home (via bus, cab, friend) has no stigma. In my host family in Sweden and others, the parents would drive to the city. Get hammered and take a cab or bus home, pick up their car the next day. Here in America, people are convinced that they can drive drunk. Not sure why this is, or how to change it, but it needs to be changed.

Also, we need better public transit. I know in my hometown the only transport is car, not even an expensive cab. It is limiting, but again, not sure how that will change given the spread out and massive nature of this country.

Personally, I don't drive for an hour after having one drink, and never drive if I've had more. I'm pretty big so one drink after one hour is almost non-existent in the blood stream. I think the legal limit should be one drink in the bloodstream.

Re:Too low?

[MechaStreisand]

I think Sweden's is a ridiculous limit, and should not be held as an example for anyone else. People with small amounts of blood alcohol are not the ones causing accidents and killing people, at least not any more than sober drivers. Drunk drivers are the ones who are the real threat. There is no need to punish people who aren't a danger just because they are similar in some way to those who are.

That is legislation based on stupidity, and it's wrong.

My old man had one of these after a DWI in PA

[Tsu-na-mi]

My dad got stopped for speeding (and subsequently DWI) in 1990 and as part of a Pennsylvania first-time offenders program he paid a fine, did time in AA meetings, and had one of these installed in his car. By doing so he avoided the mandatory 48 hours jail time and loss of license.

It cost around $2500 to install, and he had to keep it in the car for a year. You had to blow in a pattern, and the thing was fussy as hell. Like blow for 5 seconds, stop, blow for 2 seconds, stop, blow for 2 seconds and pray you did it close enough. Don't blow too hard, or too softly. It was easy to screw it up and have to redo it. It was right around then that I started to drive, so I got the old car and my mom started driving the car with the interlock on it. She had a hell of a time getting it to work under normal conditions. On more than one occasion she failed the 3 times and was stuck waiting 30 minutes for the lock to time out.

Maybe the technology on these has improved in the last 14 years, but I'd bet they're just as fussy as they ever were. Bad idea, too expensive, and why are we punishing 100% of the citizens for something .08% or less of them do? I'm all for whoever suggested the politicians all 'test' this idea for a year to see how it goes before enacting it as law.

More power to the states

[spikenerd]

Fortunately, the founding fathers of this country had the foresight to give everyone a constitutional right to move to another state whenever they feel like it for any reason. That way when one state does something stupid, they just lose taxpayers. Now if the federal government does something stupid, on the other hand, the people have to live with it until some terms expire. (And if the Supreme Court does something stupid, we're hosed.) Just be thankful the states still have some of the power to govern themselves so the fed won't do it!

Re:This has been suggested in Sweden

[zzyzx]

"But when you consider the fact (yes, fact) that this WOULD save many human lives each year, then your arguments against it don't sound very important anymore."

The problem with this argument isn't that it's not true (lives WOULD be saved) but rather that it never stops. Even more lives would be saved if there were no private cars at all. Why do we continue to allow people to drive?

canned air, etc.

[Fratz]

Can you bypass it with the use of canned air? If so, will it then become illegal to transport canned air in the driver's compartment?

I'm all in favor of things that make people not drive incompetently, but aren't there general-purpose eye-tracking solutions that apply to any type of impairment, like sleepiness, drug use, cellphone use, or having children in the car?

mod -1 BAD MATH

[gonar]

no, it would be 1/10th of a pint or a litttle less than an ounce.
yes, that's 1 shot of everclear and you're legally drunk (or damn close to it).

the reason they say "two drinks an hour" is that most drinks have 1 shot of 80 proof (40% alcohol) liquor in them (a 6 oz glass of wine (@~10%) or a 12 oz beer is roughly equivalent).

assuming your liver can process alcohol at that rate (a wildly variable rule of thumb) then you can drink 2 drinks an hour till the cows come home and remain just below the legal limit.

Re:Typo alert

[Molt]

Ah yes, but having the DUI limit at almost twice the lethal dose makes it so much easier to spot them.

The way to stop this stuff

[glsunder]

The way to stop this kind of stuff is to pass a law stating that anyone who introduces and supports a new law like this has to abide by it for 1 year if it _doesn't_ pass.

In this case, the group of people and politicians who supported it would have to get this breathalizer installed and use it for one year. I bet they'd think things through a bit more the next time they got a harebrained idea.

Of course, this post is a harebrained idea too...

MADD is mad (we need YRC: "your rights in a car")

[Uksi]

If MADD had their way, they'd have a detector that if you touched a bottle of alcohol in the last two hours, you'd get a ticket for attempting to start your car. You think I'm kidding, but with an ignition interlock and the ever-falling BAC levels, it may just happen. (Do everyone a favor and read why MADD is mad.).

BTW, unlike MADD or a rambling lunatic, I'm going to back up every claim with a link.

MADD (and NHTSA) grossly overexaggerate their claims of "drunk driving accidents," which are really alcohol-related accidents (a misleading statistic used by NHTSA). Did you know that if you, while 100% sober, hit a drunk pedestrian, it counts as an alcohol-related accident? Or did you know that if you get in an accident and EVERYONE is sober (driver, pedestrian, passengers), you can still be counted as alcohol-related due to the statistical correction that NHTSA uses, since only 63% of drivers are tested for their BAC level!

MADD claims that 0.08 BAC reduction saves lives, yet a study by NHTSA found no proof of such reduction after North Carolina enacted the lower BAC limit: "There appears to have been little clear effect of the lower BAC limit in North Carolina. Survey data indicate that the general public believes the new law was well-publicized. Although awareness of the new lower limit was not particularly high nearly 18 months after the law took effect, frequent drinkers did evidence a substantial degree of awareness that the law had changed and about what the new BAC limit was. As is typical in North Carolina, enforcement of the lower limit was vigorous and strict."

MADD wants to lower the BAC limit lower and lower, to 0.05. It claims victory over the 0.08 law over the previous 0.10 standard. However, it has been found that "the relative risk [of being in a traffic accident while using a cell-phone] is similar to the hazard associated with driving with a blood alcohol level at the legal limit." The legal limit in that paper was 0.10 BAC. Another interesting note is that "These data also call into question driving regulations that prohibit handheld cell-phones and permit hands-free cell-phones, because no significant differences in the impairments caused by these two cellular devices were found.", but that's another topic of conversation.

Point is, why do they want to keep lowering the BAC when it has been shown that the vast majority of drunk driving accidents occurs with drivers with over 0.10 BAC, and that below that, it's as risky as using a cell phone? Why is MADD targeting low-BAC-level drivers, such as 0.08 (and as they hope 0.05), with huge fines, property confiscation, loss of driver license, and obscene insurance surcharges? MADD wants to bully states into the 0.08 BAC law by passing legislation that threatens their funding.

Furthermore, when NHTSA's accident data was loaded in a database and independent statistics were ran on it, the massive exaggerations were exposed. Quote from the previous link: "Through the use of this tool we were able to discover that across the entire country NHTSA nearly doubles the number of instances of drunk drivers. And this is prior to them implementing their "Multiple Imputation" methodology w

Re:laws - bullshit!

[yerfatma]

The first time you (or a loved one) get hit by a drunk driver, you'll realize that this limits the freedoms of a drunk driver, but increases the freedom of innocent people like you and I.

Wow. The first time you slow down and re-read that, you'll realize your logic could justify taking away any and all rights.

Treating symptoms of a problem, not the cause

[Internet Dog]

Perhaps we should ban having children in the back seat or make it illegal to have cell phones in cars. The statistics support the notion that driving while using a cell phone is at least as bad as driving while drunk and have they ever studied the impact of having children misbehaving in the back seat on the accident rate? It is very easy to vilify people who drink. I am not trying to justify people who get in accidents when they have taken a drink. I just think it is a witch hunt. Bad driving is bad driving, regardless of the cause. To the person who is killed by someone in a vehicle, it doesn't really matter if the person was drinking, talking on a cell phone, or running a light to get to soccer practice on time. They are still dead.

There is a very real discrimination against people who drink acohol. Some people are very capable of safely driving while at a 0.7 to 1.4 range and others who are stone sober should never be allowed behind the wheel. In some cases they simply don't understand the laws of physics. In other cases they are agressive or self absorbed people who thing they have a right to violate traffic laws when they are inconvenient.

The laws simply do not take into consideration the ability of the driver.Why can't I be qualified to drive with a 1.2 blood alcohol content? I'd pay a premium for the privilage, but I have no such option for being tested for this special skill.

The laws regading driving with children do not have such a bias. I'm scared to death of a soccer mom with a van full of teenagers. First, they don't know how to drive a large vehicle. Second, they are always in a rush and violate more traffic laws than any other group I've seen on the road. the laws are designed to punish behaviors which are disliked (drinking) but not to punish as harshly those behaviors that are tolerated (using cell phones and transporting kids to participate in social activities).

Prior driving records should be given much more weight in the case of driving offences. Like many people I know, I have had no moving violations in over ten years, and yet this has nothing to do with whether I have had a drink before getting behind the wheel.In contrast, I have a friend who never drinks, yet she has had so many accidents that the insurance company almost canceled her coverage. Which one of us is the greater danger to society when behind the wheel?

Let me make it clear that I don't think repeated offendors should be treated the same as those who have demonstrated their ability to make good driving judgements. I know of one person who was involved in a single care accident after he had been drinking. The passenger was killed in the accident. He had at least one prior conviction on a DUI. In the prior convition he had been driving over 70 MPH in a 30 MPH zone. His license should never have been returned based on this first conviction. He had shown a complete disregard for the law by driving in a very inappropriate manner. The offense was clearly worse because he had been drinking. (I'd say the same thing if he had been using a cell phone at the time.) To quote Dirty Harry, "A man's got to know his limitations."

One final observation for those of us in the USA. The society continues to promote the use of human controlled vehicles as the principle means of transportation. The technology exists for creating a transportation system that does not require people to drive long distances with a human controlling the vehicle. It is time to automate the transportation system (with personal vehicles, not buses and trains where I have to sit in a room with people I don't know) so that people are taken out of the control loop. The last major upgrade to the transportation system was the Interstate Hyway System. Fifty years later it is time to make another major infrastructure investment. The side effect will be a massive public works employment boom that can't be sent off-shore.

This is the most idiotic idea ever:

[pclminion]

Deadly scenario 1: You're driving down a city street, perfectly legitimately. Your car buzzer sounds. It's now time to prove to your own property that you have the right to use it. You reach down for the breath tube, taking your eyes off the road. At this moment, a four year old runs into your path. You splatter her all over the asphalt because you were distracted by having to blow into a fucking tube in order to keep your car working.

Deadly scenario 2: You're parked at a rest stop. A runaway truck comes careening into the parking lot, hurtling straight toward your car. You need to start your car and drive out of the way before he gets there. Too bad, it takes 30 seconds to start your car because you need to blow into a fucking tube. You get splattered all over the inside of your car.

Deadly scenario 3: A cranked up carjacker jumps into your passenger seat in the Costco parking lot and holds you at gunpoint. You take off down the road. Suddenly your car starts honking the horn and flashing its lights. His mind clouded by being awake for the past 72 hours, and panicking because of the lights and horn drawing attention, the carjacker blows your head off and takes off on foot.

I could list reasons why this is idiotic all day long.

Re:This is the most idiotic idea ever:

[pclminion]

Another scenario then, which hits close to home with me, because I'm (sort of) a mountaineering type:

Deadly scenario 4: You're up on a mountain in September. A sudden fall storm forces you down below timberline. On the way down the trail, you slip and break both ankles. Luckily, you've got a radio, so you radio for help to your friend, who is 5 miles away with his truck, camping at a camp site. He says he'll come pick you up. Unfortunately, your friend has had two beers. He's not legally drunk, and even if he were, it wouldn't matter because it's a remote, deserted road after the summer season -- nobody to hurt, except himself. Too bad, he still can't start the truck. You end up stuck on the mountain all night. The next morning your friend comes to retrieve your frozen corpse.

the interlock isn't for everyone

[patrick.whitlock]

im originaly from atlanta, and a good friend of ming, who IS a habitual drunk driver, now has one of theese in her car. i can see some merit in the device, but the problem is, if you're chewing any kind of mint gum before you blow into this thing, the car cuts off or dosen't start. if you brush your teeth right before you leave the house... the car won't start. if you smoke a cigarette before the "test" guess what... the car cuts off or dosen't start, if they want to put theese devices in every car.. despite the extra unnessessary cost, they should really fix the technology so that someone dosen't get stranded in the middle of the interstate during morning rush hours because they diddn't spit thier gum out quickly enough.

Re:laws - bullshit!

[cayenne8]

If I get pulled over...and am tanked...I'm just refusing any tests! I'll just have them cuff me and take me in. If you take the field tests...all that does is give them evidence. They can't force you to give blood. So, yes, you'll lose your license for a year in most cases...possibly get 'wreckless driving', BUT it is still better than getting a DWI. And in most cases, especially with first offense...you can get a temp driving permit to allow you to go to work, grocery store..etc.

Re:Here's the real fix.

[pclminion]

Others' lives aren't worth enough to you to be sober while driving? Fine - your life might as well be held at the same value.

Ever toss rocks over a cliff just to be a dork? You might have hit someone. That's reckless endangerment. So you think people should be executed for that?

Ever drive and talk on a cell phone? You could be distracted and kill someone. Negligence, or reckless endangerment -- there's arguments either way. You think people should be executed for that?

Ever get drunk at a party and hang out on a balcony? You could trip and push someone over. Happens all the time. You think people who drink on balconies deserve to die?

Your "solution" is idiotic. Under your system, a person driving drunk who kills nobody would be executed, while a perfectly sober person who deliberately rams into another car and kills people would be sentenced for murder and just end up going to prison for a while. Yeah, that makes a lot of fucking sense.

Get your head screwed on straight. Among people who have driven a car and who drink alcohol, 99% have driven while intoxicated at some point. The difference between drunk drivers and you, is that they kill accidentally (although they are still responsible for the consequences), but you... you would kill out of cold blooded hatred.

OMG RTFA K THX BYE

[lowmagnet]

I mean seriously, this is NEW MEXICO. And if anyone has a history of a DUI, it's our President. Get over yourself.

Re:laws - bullshit!

[Yartrebo]

It effects everyone. 30 seconds each time your start a car comes out to a lot of lost time. If there are 100,000,000 regular drivers in the US who start their car 1,000 times a year would cost about a billion hours or $10B/year if you value time at $10/hour.

A hard to defeat breathalizer isn't going to come cheap. If they cost $200/unit for parts and labor, than installing them on the 16M new cars sold a year would cost about $3.2B/year.

Distracting the driver to take a re-test while navigating heavy traffic or driving on city streets is going to lead to more accidents. No idea on the cost, either in lives or dollars, that it would cause.

Most of these costs will be incurred by people who don't drive drunk. Laws against driving drunk are punitive enough as it is (In NYC, you get caught DWI and they seize the car), but at least they mostly only effect drunks.

Re: Devices

[adamjaskie]

Uh, NOTHING is too strict, IMHO. I would put the limit at 0.03 or so. If you have been drinking, you have no business on the road. Don't try to justify it with "I only had one beer" or shit like that.

Who is to blame for this one?

[PyrotekNX]

Small laws like this one gradually but surely remove civil liberties one by one. At the government level, politicians would just assume that we were nothing but children that does not know what is best for us.

In general, the majority of Americans know what is best for them and generally making responsible decisions about their life.

People that consistantly cause problems are the minority compared to the rest of law abiding citizens.

Instead of tring to help people that have issues, they are punished by being sent to jail to live in a locked box like an animal or even worse being sent to a mental institution where they are put on so many drugs that it permanantly destroys their mind and body.

The thing to blame here is the education system. Right now all the special programs for troubled students are being shut down. Instead of putting those people in special programs and classes to try to reach them, more and more of them are being put in mainstream classes. Many people in this situation do not do well and end up dragging the entire class down. In this situation, these challenged people will get frustrated and act out. This may lead to other people's grades dropping because of the constant distraction.

Things like zero tolerance are stomping on civil liberties. Right now it's very easy to be treated like a criminal, actually it is getting much harder not to be. In the last few years schools have been fortifying their walls like a jail. If you skip a class, you can get sent away to a juvenile detention center. You can be expelled for having a butter knife or a pair of scissors in your car parked outside the school. You can also be expelled for having a bottle of asprin.

I can barely recognize my old highschool now, there are high fences surrounding the entire complex. Instead of allowing people to go outside to eat lunch, they are forced to eat in the cafeteria. How are these young people ever going to learn how to be responsible adults if they are locked in a cage 7 hours a day and are forced to go to classes that they shouldn't have to be in?

This all leads to people that are adult age but still having the minds of children. This means there will be a growing dependance on the government.

I guess it's just a coincidence that it is the government that controls how schools are funded and what curriculums they have and that if a school chooses not to follow a rule it has it's only source of funding taken away.

Coming back to the interlock, the masses are treated like children incapible of making their own decisions. If we allow the government, which is supposed to run under our consent to overstep it's bountries, then it will turn into a tyranny. This will no longer be a Republic, it will be a Fascist Dictatorship.

30 second test??!?!?!?

[zorcon]

This would pretty much change horror/thriller/action movies forever as running to a car for an escape would no longer be an option due to the 30 second wait.

Seriously though, sometimes you need to start your car and GO! This would pretty much screw you in such a situation. Would probably also lead to higher auto theft due to people leaving their cars running while swinging in to the bank or 7-11.

Two things

[Pragmatix]

1) Not too many years ago I learned in a criminology class a few things about the patterns of drunk driving offenses. The professor had taken part in a get tough effort by some jurisdiction who was hard core about setting up traffic stops over a long period of time. The volume of drunk drivers did not decrease. Yet at the same time there were very few repeat offenders. The kept stopping different people over the course of the study.

2) At first glance the punishment described in the article seems only appropriate for people already convicted of DUIs. But given the professor's study, such an application would not reduce the number of drunk drivers on the roads. If everyone had to have it it would.

3) Personally the social cost is way too high in my book. This kind of mass intrusion into your private life is something we need to avoid at all costs. It is a slippery slope

Re:laws - bullshit!

[monique]

Sounds like you're talking about "freedom from" vs. "freedom to", a topic explored (sort of) in The Handmaid's Tale.

I don't think anyone should be driving when they've been drinking. Period.

But I also don't want to run to my car with a goon chasing me, jump in, try to start the car, and ... wait half a minute for the thing to let me start it?

Some cars are iffy on the whole starting thing, anyway. Do we really want to add additional hoops for those old cars to jump through?

Oh, and if I read the blurb right, this is talking about *New Mexico*, not Mexico. A bit closer to home.

Same for Nevada

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't drink, I don't like alcohol, I don't like
being drunk (though I used to black out a few times
a month from drinking in the past) and I don't like
being around drunks.

A HUGE majority of the folks I know that drink,
WOULDN'T if marijuana wasn't against the law.
Just recently they've made posession of less
than an ounce a non-felony. It's a good start.
Now.... decriminalize it completely and you'll
see a major decline in the number of DUI's and
drunk driver related accidents.

Nothing worse than seeing an intelligent happy
stoner become a pissy, mean drunk because their
'Job' requires random drug tests and considers
marijuana a drug.

Defeats the purpose of a law.

[SlamboS]

As far as I know, a law is meant to help out a society, not hurt it. Ok, if this happened we'd have less drunk drivers on the road. But not significantly less! Reminds me of copy protection on CDs. If someone wants enough to download a song, they'll find it whether or not there's any sort of protection on it. It's one of those laws that are voted for so politicians can say they were "tough on drunk drivers."

For the DRUNK drivers, this would:
1)Stop some of them from being on the road
2)Be bypassed using some easy trick figured out within a week of them coming out.
3)If someone else does take the test for him and a rolling retest comes up, it's going to make the driver even more dangerous to people on the road (like talking on a cell phone and drunk driving at the same time)

For the NON-DRUNK driver:
1)Make New-Mexican cars practically unsellable in other states (provided stupidity isn't contagious across state lines). And if a New Mexican wants to sell their car, they're going to have to pay for removal themselves (which might be illegal) in order to even be competitive in a larger market.
2)Adds social drinking to the list of anxieties someone might have. Some people can have one drink and be near the limit (although not very impaired). Now those people won't have even a single drink at a restaurant. This is looking like an economically terrible bill.
3)Make it impossible for people with disabilities (lung problems) to drive someone else's car - and makes it a hastle for them to have something rigged in their own car.
4)Ever had your music on too loud and didn't notice your turn signal? What if something like that happened for your rolling retest?
5)Driver distraction - could make up for some of the traffic deaths in itself - but this time on completely innocent people and not drunk drivers.
6)Another movable part - well kind of. Imagine if you got in a fender bender and this thing disconnected. Or imagine if you spilled something on it. Or imagine if it just plain broke. Fuck driving to the auto shop, it's time to call a tow-truck.
7)Will look ugly and cluttery.
8)Will have to be paid for and installed by people moving into the state.
9)Could get out of calibration leaving people stranded - OR late for important classes/meetings, etc. OR could possibly scare the shit out of someone driving on a really busy dangerous road - when it screws up then close your eyes and hope against a 12-car pileup.
10)Will look stupid and non-animated and represent a move back in time for ease of driving.
11)You have to sit in your car for 30 seconds while it's cold and it won't have a chance to warm up.
12)Goodbye to auto-starters.
13)Slows down emergencies (My wife's having a baby and I had a beer 20 minutes ago. Oh well, let's just hope I can deliver!)

I could go on with even more stuff but the idea's clear here. This wouldn't stop all drunk driving, and most likely a way around this will be found very quickly (like finding vulnerabilities in the latest Microsoft OS). The roads would be a little safer, but it probably wouldn't be all THAT significant. It would work FOR the drunk drivers (not letting some of them drive, stopping them from getting in trouble with the law, saving some of their lives) but against many innocent citizens (problems with the machine, all the other reasons i listed above). I'm from Ohio originally, and I saw a very good idea - Special colored licence plates for previous drunk drivers. Now THAT'S a useful and safe and non-annoying and non-damaging deterrent. Tougher penalties on people dumb enough to drink and drive. Putting a burdon on sober people who ride with people who are knowingly drunk. Hiring more police for late night rounds.

There are SO many ways to help this problem, and the one New Mexico seems to be choosing won't do much but hurt the average, law abiding citizen. It's not much different than saying "People have AIDS. So now, everyone must always wear a condom during sex. New condoms will hav

Re: Devices

[blahtree]

Although I agree with most of your points, there is a reason there are stricter laws for minors. I was reading an article the other day that said that alcohol affects inexperienced drivers *much* more than experienced drivers. Even mild intoxication and inexperience can be a dangerous combination.

Welcome to THE FUTURE!(TM)

[GMFTatsujin]

Have you ever been unable to start your car because of an asthma attack?

Ever had your car refuse to start because your breath was Listerine fresh?

Ever debated borrowing a friend's car because they had the flu/herpes/cold sores?

You will -- and the New Mexico legislature will bring it to you.

Re: Devices, corrected.

[MachDelta]

Easily circumvented. Anyone with a pair of wire cutters and access to a Radio Shack can bypass this.

Yup. Its easy. I could bypass one in about 5 minutes. Problem? You can't hide it. The fastest way - just stripping wires and bypassing the box - is blatantly obvious, because even if you tape it back up, it won't have tamper seals on it (a requirement where I worked). And even when people get creative and just jump to the starter directly, the box logs it as an engine running fault. Too many of those and you're busted. And I know what you're thinking: "just disconnect the box". Doesn't work. You either end up with Power On/Off signals every time you disconnect and reconnect the box, or you get a very suspicious report with almost no 'blows' despite your milage having increased (yes, your milage is tracked, though not electronically).
Mechanically circumventing the box IS possible, but its very difficult and time consuming. Not something a drunk is easilly capable of doing ;). (And no, I won't tell anyone how.)

Will cause accidents. If you think cell phones were bad imagine hyperventilating sober drivers passing out at the wheel.

A potential hazard, yes. Luckilly you are given, IIRC, about 3 minutes to provide a sample. So you can easilly wait until you're stopped at a light or otherwise unoccupied. Of course, that relies on the users intelligence, which isn't a great thing to be counting on.

Easily circumvented. Even if you don't like wire cutters, you can fill up a balloon with air to blow for you. ( or another low tech solution devized by the same people who can make a bong out of *anything*

Like I posted earlier above, most newer devices (well the ones I worked with anyways) require you to hum for a few seconds as you provide a sample. This makes mechanical blowing devices a bit more challanging to devise (although, admittedly, still possible). But as the technology evolves, it gets harder and harder to fool it, to the point of being impractical (especially if you have nothing to hide, save your "privacy").

Just wait for the next version...

[Retired Replicant]

The next version will require you to pee into a urine-testing device before your car will start. Make sure you drink lots of water while driving so you can pass all of the "rolling retests." The upside is that you will no longer need to stop to at rest areas on long trips :)

Re:laws - bullshit!

[enrayged]

I'm not saying I support this. That is a whole different issue. It sounds more expensive cars and ignition systems that are even more of a bitch to work on. If Mexico wants to give it a try, maybe we can watch and learn and decide whether or not it's effective and should be used elsewhere

Thats NEW MEXICO you insensitive clod... which is a state of the USA. We are not Mexico, Mexico is a totally different country. Yes we share a border with Mexico, but that dosent Make us Mexico, even tho we are New Mexico and it does sound the same, and is the same except we are newer. So remember... New Mexico is one of the 50 states of the union.

Yeah, I have lived here all my life and it really iritates me when others dont realize we are part of the United States, esp when you get mail held up in Washington DC for not having international postage paid...(yes that has really happened to me once)

Ray

Poor Quality Devices to soon get everyone's atten

[tres3]

My Brother had one of these things installed in his car as the result of a DUI. It was either get the device or not drive. But I recently had the misfortune of borrowing his car while mine was being repaired. Not only did my brother feel the need to give me a thirty minute lecture on the device but I'm glad that he did. I never drink and drive but I failed this device on more than one occasion. If you have a dry mouth - from jogging, taking allergy medication, not drinking anything in the last hour - the device will fail. It assumes that you are using some other source for air besides a person (like a balloon). It asks you to blow in the device while you are driving down the road and his particular model shuts the car off. It does give you warning that the car is going to shut off but it will do it while you are driving down the highway! Do you have any idea how difficult it is to bring a car to a stop from seventy miles an hour after the power steering and power brakes fail? It is a seriously dangerous device. It will not be that long before it either causes an accident by shutting the ignition off while the car is moving or fails to allow a non-intoxicated driver to start their car. It keeps track of every attempt (success or failure) and reports it back to the installer. Which my brother then has to take to the court as part of his probation. He then has to explain why to a skeptical judge. Although it is obvious that the device failed when he passes a few minutes later - after getting a drink of water - but it is generally a pain in the ass.

The company that makes this device would be foolish to allow this legislation to pass without carving out some sort of loophole for themselves that will protect them against lawsuits. Having lived in Colorado for years, I know that the possibility that you get a car stuck and have to spend the night on the side of the road with the car running to provide heat is real. It happens every year to someone and happened to me about eight years ago. If this device shuts the car off while the stranded occupant is sleeping and allows that person to freeze to death there will be some serious liability to the company. It is one thing for the company to say that the occupant was obviously drunk; just look at their record of DUI's. It is quite another matter for them to make that claim against an elderly person who has never had a drink in their life; you have to blow HARD or the device fails. Can you say millions in liability?

What about the person that gets stranded in a bad part of town by a failed device only to be mugged. You can bet that at least one of these people will have the resources to persue the company in court. My point is that when a judge orders the device installed in a person's car as the result of a DUI the company can make some argument about the lessor of two evils. When it is installed in everybody's car and it harms that person that doesn't drink the company is going to get sued unless there is a legal protection clause (indemnification). If there is some indemnification clause then is it right to allow some company to escape legal recourse for the malfunction of their device when it causes a death or injury?

My final point is the cost. My brother had to pay $2000 to have the device installed in his $500 car. It isn't that unfair since he did drive drunk but should we charge everyone that much money for the mistakes of a few? I predict that these people from NM will start to buy and sell their cars in neighboring states and that car dealerships in NM will have their business seriously curtailed. They won't sell as many new cars; new cars will have their warrantis voided because these devices will have to be installed after market; and it is a serious invasion of privacy to have your own car keep track of when you use it and for how long. Will it also become law that to have your license renewed that you have to provide the data from the device to the Department of Motor Vehicles.

This law may pass but it will soon be repealed and some politicians will probably loose their jobs for undertaking such Stalinist tactics. The citizens of New Mexico will become politically active and want some lynchings at the capital.

Assisted Blowing

[Cytop1asm]

Drunken Man: Honey... sit closer to the wheel and blow me... I mean blow for me!

Remote starting?

[HD Webdev]

Will remote breathalyzers be an option?

I guess it could be a feature.

I can see it now. A group of people in the parking lot arguing over who is sober enough to drive and then passing around the remote testing unit until the car starts.

Re: Devices, corrected.

[A55M0NKEY]

I see your point about ripping the thing out with dykes being difficult to hide, but I wouldn't bother trying to hide it except from cursory inspection by the guy that gives you a sticker - once a year with a solder gun before getting a sticker and it's back where it's 'supposed to' be. And while people who have been ordered to install one of these things by a court may be required to submit reports to some parole-officer-figure, the general public won't be submitting anything to anyone.

As for mechanical blowers requiring one to hum, you could get around that with a charcoal breath filter that would still transmit the hum but not the alcohol on one's breath. Blowing isn't hard. Neither is humming. Someone will come up with a low tech jerry-rigged breathalyzer-defeating bong.
And I agree with you that those with nothing to hide except their privacy will largely find defeating this device impractical, but determined drunk drivers know who they are and will find a way around it.

Make driving safer for everyone.

[rice_burners_suck]

I think this is a splendid idea! But here's an even better one: The "rolling retest" feature should only activate when the driver is trying to concentrate on changing lanes, or making an emergency maneuver to avoid an accident, or some other situation in which a retest would be really dangerous. Upon activation of the rolling retest, the steering wheel would suddenly veer in some random direction while the throttle is opened all the way and the pedals and shifter are disabled and do not function. Also, explosives mounted under the car, as used in filming automotive stunts, would cause the car to flip over, especially if the driver was NOT drunk and had never, ever driven drunk. Yeah. That would make driving safer for everyone.

For all the New Mexicans out there...

[n()_cHIEFz]

...the bill was dropped from the DUI package that the Senate passed so it's not going to be law anyway, not now at least. I'd suggest writing your reps and senators right now to make sure legislation like this gets shut down in the future.

Not that it matters much if it does pass, I'd just drive over to Texas to buy my cars. Also, there's no way I'm going to be living in this god forsaken state after I finish my graduate study, its stupid fucking laws like this that get passed here in New Mexico that are so unfriendly to business that I won't be finding a decent job here anyway.

This bill was a great example of really strange liberal thinking.

Death Penalty for Drunk Driving

[Cobblepop]

Several countries (Saudi-Arabia, Malaysia, Turkey, Thailand) have the death penalty for drunk driving. Most second offense, some first. If you want to cut down on a particular crime the solution is not to write additional laws, but to stiffen the law in place.

* In South Africa, the penalty is a ten-year prison sentence and the equivalent of $10,000 fine, or both.

* In Russia, the license is revoked for life.

* In Malaysia, the driver is jailed. If he is married, his wife is jailed, too.

(From http://fp.uni.edu/studyabroad/guide/alcoholdrugs.a sp)

Re: Forced to give evidence against yourself

[A55M0NKEY]

You can be forced to give evidence against yourself in the US, just not testimony. Destroying such evidence is considered obstruction of justice. Of course giving evidence against one's self is really ( as opposed to legally ) tantamount to giving testimony, but that's only one level of BS that allows this to go on.

The other BS argument that allows this is that 'driving is a privalege, not a right'. If freedom of travel is a right ( which it is ), then in this society of roads and sprawl, so is having license ( freedom ) to travel by piloting an automobile. The whole 'driving is a privilege' nonsence idea strikes me of being formulated way back when the majority of people got around their tiny towns on horse and buggy. The precidents that baleywick has set over the years allows driving to continue to be considered a privilege by the courts nowadays rather than the right it is even though the world is much different.

Weak Age.

[A55M0NKEY]

Arguments about young people getting out to vote or not aside, let me offer a hypothesis as to why this is now the case.

While nobody wants themselves to be resticted from any activity ( such as drinking ) nobody would argue that alcohol doesn't cause problems with some people that the rest of the world has to deal with such as drunk driving.

In fact, if, for instance, a thirty year old knew they had a disease and would die before they turned 50, they might favor banning over-50s from drinking so as to spare the costs to society of dealing with elderly drunks and remove the fraction of drunk drivers who are also elderly from the roads.

But that case is rare. Most people expect to be elderly one day, and would not vote for that kind of thing.

If you look at every age bracket eligable to vote ( greater than or equal to 18 ), each age is surrounded above and below by some other age that can vote except the youngest age bracket ( 18-20 year olds ). For instance, 30 year olds have 29 year olds that are about to turn 30 and 31 year olds who were recently 30 to help defend them in the polls against those who would 'gang up on' 30 year olds. The same is true for 21 year olds. They have the 18-20 crowd to assist them in defending their rights. That crowd would hate to see the drinking age raised to 22 before they turn 21.

But the 15-17 year olds have no say. They can not assist the 18-20 year olds to defend their rights. So whatever the age of sufferage, there will tend to be less rights for a time afterwards. It would be fairer to make the age of sufferage lower than the age of responsibility for this reason, say make the age of voting = 15, but the age of selective service registration/etc 18. Then the rights and responsibilities would accrue at the same time ( with the exception of the vote which would be granted before majority )

new business opportunity

[scharkalvin]

for people who disable the g.d. thing 5 minutes after you purchase the car.

WARNING: Radical Idea Inside!

[mwalleisa]

I've repeated this so often that I almost make ME sick . . . ENFORCE THE LAWS THAT CURRENTLY EXIST! There is no reason to heap additional costs upon the vast majority of car owners and drivers that do not drive while impaired (intoxicated, medicated, or other). Especially since existing breathalyzer technology only screens for alcohol content and not drugs (legal or illegal). I have no desire to start ranting like a lunatic, but this makes as little sense as creating new laws covering (for example) "hate crimes." Assaulting, maiming, torturing, or killing people should be and is illegal regardless of the religious, racial, or ethnic relationship between the perpetrator and the victim. Additional "hate crime" laws only serve to glamorize these crimes for your local Fox news station and makes a legal system that is already overly complex and incomprehensible to the average American even worse.

They have a new version of this device

[El]

If you've had 1 to 4 drinks, it prevents your car from starting. But if you're really drunk, it automatically drives your car to your ex's house!