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Nintendo Patents Handheld Emulation, Cracks Down
mclove writes "Looks like Nintendo has recently been granted a patent that gives them new leverage in their fight against emulators: Patent 6,672,963 mainly appears to cover emulators like UltraHLE that are custom-tailored for particular games, but they're already using it to suppress a new Game Boy Advance emulator for the Tapwave Zodiac, Firestorm gbaZ, and there's no reason to think they won't start leveraging it against anyone else trying to emulate their systems." The reprinted lawyer's letter from Nintendo also notes: "Whether you have an authentic game or not, it is illegal to copy a Nintendo game from a cartridge or to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet."
'The reprinted lawyer's letter from Nintendo also notes: "Whether you have an authentic game or not, it is illegal to copy a Nintendo game from a cartridge or to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet." '
aren't consumers allowed to make backup copies of their electronic media?
Nothing to see here, move on. In the years to come everything will be covered by patents, even basic stuff.
I'm loving the SNES!!
Karma whoring
There has got to be prior art for handheld emmulators. I've ran NES emmulators on my desktop for years now. You can't tell me this hasn't been done before on a handheld. What about the Super Mario Bros. game that I had on my TI-85?
[ ]
As a game developer I am interested in protecting my IP. Though I do find it to be unjust for Nintendo to hold this patent.
I thought patents were only granted for new technology? Handheld emulation has been around for years. How can Nintendo suddenly own it?
Now I know that we can't make a backup copy of our DVD's because of DECSS but why aren't we allowed to make our backuo copies of nintendo games?
Nalanthi
I can't find my
You *are* allowed to make backups and fair-use copies. Wailing lawyers don't change this fact.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Nintendo used to be the leader in video games and consoles, but now they've seriously lagged behind everyone else (Sony and MS primarily).
If I still bought Nintendo, I would stop after hearing this sort of cheapshot move.
Things like this are disturbing. It's become acceptable, in today's society, for a company to tell it's customers how they can and can't use their products. It's like a pencil manufacturer selling you a pencil, then saying you can only write on the paper they make. Doesn't make much sense to me, but what would I know.
Given the repeated mention of an LCD display, does this patent only affect laptops and handhelds?
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
I find it strange and somewhat stupid that Nintendo hasn't tapped into this market... they should be teaming up with the people making emulators, rather than trying to stop the community from doing what they love. It's not like they're going to get any money from the Nintendo/SNES/Etc. at this point anyway. I can understand their frustration with a GBA emulator, but the others... just think of the possibilities, Nintendo!! Surely Nintendo couldn't hurt itself by teaming up with the creators of ZSNES and releasing a commercial version (rather like Linux commercial releases) that includes a bunch of games and some extra features (PDF guides for the games, maybe some touch-ups to the emulator, etc.). Plus, people would get a warm fuzzy feeling for knowing that they'd be collaborating with both Nintendo and emulator creators.
C'mon - you know how in the back of the instruction manual they tell you it's illegal to make any kind of backup of your cartridge because it's unnecessary, and then cover their bets telling you they're not infringing on your statutory rights?
Software is software is software, and you are allowed to back up your software in case the original gets damaged. Period. Most of my old NES carts are unusable because they're so old. So is it unnecessary for me to backup the cart because Nintendo is going to buy me a new cart, or because I'm allowed to download a ROM and play it on an emulator?
(Yes, carts do deteriorate - it's called bit rot. Look into it before you flame.)
The only surefire protection against Microsoft infections is abstinence. - The Onion
The PS2 contains a PS1 emulator...does that mean the PS2 is in violation of Nintendo's patent?
But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
These guys seem to have stepped into legal hot water in several places.
- Emulating a video game platform is okay, but the patent Nintendo is claiming is against a program emulates multiple handheld videogame consoles based on analysing its input file to declare what format it has been given and therefore which console it needs to emulate. Now, there's likely was that a multi-platform emulator can step around this limitation, like requiring the user to declare which emulation mode is to be used, but this is definitely something the write of such a program should have a lawyer look over before they release their product.
- Emulating a video game platform is okay, but if there are no legal non-cartrige games available for that platform, there's a problem. The Atari emulator community has managed to not just reverse engineer the platform, but have also reverse engineered development tools for that platform so there are some legal freeware Atari 2600 games in circulation. I don't think there are any freeware Game Boy Advance games in circulation yet.
- You can legally copy your cartriges to your computer (if you can) to make a backup copy that could later be used to restore a lost or damaged cartrige, but you can't legally do anything else with your backup copy and still hide behind the backup fair use shield.
- The moral justifiation that you can download from the internet what you legally have another copy of is not a legal one. Maybe it should be, but under today's laws it isn't so that's not a defense to hide behind.
In short, this seems like a tool that encurages piracy and cannot seem to come up with a "substation non-infringing functionality" yet. It should be held tight to the developer until somebody can come up with one... maybe a lawyer can help find one.
The reprinted lawyer's letter from Nintendo also notes: "Whether you have an authentic game or not, it is illegal to copy a Nintendo game from a cartridge or to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet."
Basically Nintendo is saying "Now pay us again, you consumer piece of shit."
Apparantly they liked DirectTV's business model (i.e. extortion via letters from lawyers). One has to wonder if this is a first step in something greater.
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"Whether you have an authentic game or not, it is illegal to copy a Nintendo game from a cartridge or to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet."
This seems very debatable to me. Has anyone ever been procescuted for downloading something they own?
It's not illegal to make a tape that I can listen to in my car off a CD, so why would copying info from a cartidge be any different?
Is the cartidge form factor enough of a copy protection mechanism that they think it falls under the DMCA?
Pirated game roms are just as common as emulators, and are basically illegal. "Archival purposes only" is a complete joke with digital content.
Still, selling an emulator is asking for trouble. What are you making money off of? You are selling a software representation of the system vs. the hardware system. Which is cheaper? - So you are competition for the hardware platform. It doesn't matter if the emulator is legal or not, the company will take you to court over it and you will be a small world of hurt (even if you win). As a business, a paid-for emulator is encroaching upon the turf of the emulated machine and whoever owns it. Naturally, this turf will be protected in the interest of the company and shareholders.
Isn't it true most every business to do with a console has to pay royalties to the console's maker (company who controls the platform)? So the company is going to go after you if you are trying to make money off their platform without royalties.
3D chip? Ugh. Looks like I won't be buying it. Once a gaming system incorporates a 3D, it's entire game library devolves into mostly first person shooters. The lack of a 3D chip in the gameboy series is the only reason why it's the only gaming platform that I keep up with anymore.
Just because someone says something is illegal, it doesn't mean it's illegal, unless that person represents a legislative body of course.
The last word from the US legislature is that it is legal and necessary that a consumer is permitted to make copies of his media. This has been upheld by judges. It is the law of the land.
So on one hand we have the Law, which is the fundamental basis of our civilization.
On the other hand, we have some guy from some company who things by merely making some arbitrary statement, then his statement supersedes the law of the land. In other words, this gentleman belies that civilization is based on his discretion alone.
A person with such beliefs should be REMOVED from society.
It's pretty much a Palm Pilot with a 3D chip to me. It seems too weak compared to other systems to really compete, but maybe I'm missing something.
"Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is living in a state of sin." -- John von Neumann
A very good point, and one that people sometimes forget. I love it when stores post signs saying "we're not responsible for blah blah". They can SAY that, but just saying it does not make it true.
So, as you said, making backups of your own ROMs only become illegal when Nintendo wins a court case against someone. What they say about the matter only tells you whether they would file suit or not in the first place.
However, I would caution you against ranting about your fair-use "rights" as though it's part of the Constitution. Fair use rights are entirely at the court's interpretation of what is "fair" or not. What you think is fair may not jive with the court's interpretation.
Two relevant links:
http://www.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.html
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/
I'm not arguing that downloading ROMs of cartridges you own isn't fair use, only cautioning against making "fair use rights" arguments - because the default opinion of the court is going to be for the copyright holder, unless you can make an extremely good argument. In this case, I think you could, though.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
I have several NES and SNES games that I own the cartiage yet play them through a PC emulator because the game systems stopped working after a lightning storm. Why am I now a criminal just because I don't feel like wasting time and money for a new system off of ebay that may or may not work?
Windows is as solid as quicksand.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Ah, the irony. The emulator of the Playstation and the Xbox (with a twist of Hello Kitty), coming out against emulators.
Remember when they used to define the industry?
Actually, a pretty (hearteningly) specific patent which would be not-too-challenging to bust open.. some ideas:
"storing, in said computer system memory, a binary image that when executed by said handheld video game platform provides interactive video game play on said handheld video game platform;"
Seems if I store that binary image, say XORed with the Constitution, it wouldn't execute on said handheld video game platform. Or invent your own ARM binary instruction set and convert it offline. That won't provide jack shit interactivity on said handheld video game platform!
"converting, with said software program, instructions within said stored binary image into instructions for execution by said first type microprocessor;"
Definitely a hole here. Use an offline program (other than "said" program) to do your dirty work, and save that in a format that executes natively on your processor.
Also, another hole:
"analyzing, with said software program, said stored binary image to detect whether said binary image constitutes a predetermined video game title;"
So, have the "other than 'said' program" I mentioned earlier do the analysis and stick it in a DB or INI file or something.
Any one of those, and the patent's busted, but I'd be thorough, just to make sure!
(IANAL)
Now, there's likely was that a multi-platform emulator can step around this limitation, like requiring the user to declare which emulation mode is to be used
Two words: Filename extension. On my computer, I have .nes set to launch FCE Ultra, .bin set to launch a DGen, and .gba set to launch VisualBoyAdvance.
I don't think there are any freeware Game Boy Advance games in circulation yet.
You think wrong. In fact, I myself have made some and have run them on hardware.
You can legally copy your cartriges to your computer (if you can) to make a backup copy that could later be used to restore a lost or damaged cartrige
I can also make copies and adaptations necessary to run a program on a given computer (17 USC 117).
The moral justifiation that you can download from the internet what you legally have another copy of is not a legal one.
The defense of owning a lawful copy (that is, an original Game Pak) does shift the burden of proof to the copyright owner to prove that the alleged infringer was not capable of making the copy, which raises a question of fact that can preclude summary judgment. The seventh amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides that civil suits where at least $20 is at stake will go before a jury, which brings into the picture jury nullification of copyright technicalities such as the DMCA.
Of course, nothing you read on Slashdot is legal advice; only your attorney can provide that.
Nintendo has traditionally been quite thorough in going after piracy and this crack down on emulation is nothing new. Their first breakthrough was discovering a multi-million dollar game piracy ring linked to the Taiwanese government during the NES heyday. Ever since, they have made piracy defense one of their top priorities. Through litigation, hardware design, and choice of media (cartridges vs. CDs with the N64) Nintendo reclaims all lost revenue it can.
I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it seems pretty reasonable for them to secure their market. Normally I would be aghast that Nintendo is threatening a form of emulation, something I hold dear. But they have a legal basis with this patent, so this is more than just strongarming from a big company (*cough* Sony vs. Bleem *cough*).
There were however some market tactics from Nintendo which I disapprove of such as inventory control. Back then NOA had so much clout, retailers that carried unlicensed Tengen games got a letter: "drop Tengen games or we pull our NES shipments". No license meant no royalty and no NOA quality-control to stop a crapflood of third-party games that destroyed the Atari VCS years before. At least it's good that Nintendo took Tengen to court and took care of matters legally in the end.
By a locking chip, which prevented duplicates from being used in the system. However, they didn't have anything to prevent copying at the time. Also, hardware encryption is very easy. They could have done DES (or even AES if it had been invented by then) in hardware with almost no cost.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Interesting how they make reference to MAME, but are ignorant of the fact that prior to 2000 or so, someone ported MAME to a digital camera of all things. I think that qualifies as prior art for emulating stuff on a handheld device.
What a polite and well written way to say (paraphrased) "we'll sue your ass." Perhaps if the RIAA were only half as elequent the world would be a nicer place. Mabye it was the unexpected simplicity of the legal doubletalk, but the letter from Nintendo seems to raise some valid points:
The very limited archival copy exception to copyright laws is set forth in 17 U.S.C. 117(a)(2), which specifies that the owner of a computer program can make a copy "for archival purposes only." Even if it were otherwise permitted, which it is not, playing a copy of a Nintendo game on the Zodiac system is not "archiving".
While generally I am amoung the first to annunciate my right to fair use, you have to admit that in this case there is a very legitamate and valid difference between media such as a cd and media on which a game is stored, and as such Nintendo makes a strong arguement. While one could do some waving of the hands and talk about hardware upgrades or software cd/dvd players, the plain and simple case in point here is that Nintendo software is meant to be extremely platform dependant. To reiterate this concept, to this day such software is distributed on a piece of plastic that would seem to have broken off a commadore 64.
I dont know...I enjoy emulation but generally (due to hardware limitations more then choice) get my kicks from the plethora of original nintendo, super nintendo, original gameboy, atari, playstation, and arcade emulators available. In retrospect there seems something fair-er about playing such games on under emulation, as many of these systems are no longer produced, and as such the emulator itself becomes - conceptually atleast - an archival copy.
How do I keep track of people who are fingering
It only applies to 'low power' devices. So stick an ARM or Centrino chip in your hand held, and avoid using BLITing or 'a state machine to emulate the LCD driver' and you should be OK.
The ti-89 mario game was a complete reimplementation, not a ROM.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Many people seem to believe that it's legal for you to make/download a ROM of a game if you own it. This is a popular lie that permeates the ROM community. It's the type of thing that people believe because they want it to be true.
Downloading a game program from a cartridge into a computer is not covered by the 'fair use' laws that allow you to back up software. It's considered making 'derivative work,' something that you aren't legally allowed to do unless you have the express permission of the copyright holder. Although changing media for backup purposes isn't usually a problem (it's legal for you to buy software on a floppy disk and make a backup copy on a CD-ROM) this is NOT the case with copying software from a game cartridge into a computer file format.
This is not an open issue; it has already been decided by a federal court in the case of Nintendo of America Inc. v. Computer & Entertainment Inc., back in 1996. If you make or download a ROM from a game cartridge, you are almost certainly breaking the law. Of course you aren't likely to get caught or punished, but don't delude yourself into thinking that what you're doing in legal.
This is already causing quite a stir on one of the more prominant Zodiac message boards.
A few relevant issues: Since the recent DMCA exemptions created by the Library of Congress, Nintendo's claim that "You're not allowed to play roms you own," is only valid for the GBA, since the Gameboy and Gameboy Color are both legally considered obsolete.
At any rate, the patent only refers to emulators running on "limited capability devices" (Cell Phones, PDAs, and embedded entertainment centers), not to emulators running on desktop PCs. Further, it only covers the Gameboy family of systems: NES, SNES, Virtual Boy, N64, Game Cube and DS are not protected at all.
As for prior art, the patent was applied for in 2000, but wasn't granted until Jan. 6 2004, but the patent acknowledges prior art in its own phrasing:
"A number of GAME BOY.RTM. emulators have been written for a variety of different platforms ranging from personal digital assistants to personal computers. However, further improvements are possible and desirable."
Even more interesting is its mention of Aaron Giles' MAME patent.
One thing that really makes me scratch my head: I've known of people getting patents in a matter of months. Was this one constantly rejected over the course of those 4 years or something?
Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
Oh the typical slashdot replies. How terrible it is that Nintendo are taking away people's rights? Well I personally don't see it that way. Imagine for a second that I started up a company that made Gameboys, compatible 100% with the Nintendo Gameboy. Essentially I'd be profiting of the design of the Gameboy without paying any money to Nintendo. This would be wrong. Right?
How is an emulator any different? If a company produces a GBA emulator for a Palm Pilot, even ignoring the fact that guaranteed the majority of it's users would be pirating the games for it (yes - they would, admit it), it's essentially a unlicensed gameboy compatible device.
This patent covers Nintendo against this happening, and is as such a very valid use of a patent, i.e. to protect their business interests from being ripped off by third parties.
Oh and no, I don't expect to be modded up BTW, being as I'm not towing the Slashdot party line of "oh my god, what about fair use?".
At least it's good that Nintendo took Tengen to court and took care of matters legally in the end.
Tengen lost in Atari Games v. Nintendo only because it had defrauded the U.S. Copyright Office in a request for the 10NES lockout chip source code. When Nintendo tried to sue American Video Entertainment over its lockout defeat method based on a charge pump (now commonly called the "Macronix method" after AVE's parent company), Nintendo lost because no copyright infringement had occurred. AVE went on to license the Macronix method to Camerica (Codemasters' North American publisher) and to Color Dreams.
Tengen would later get bought out by Midway, a licensed publisher.
I'm absolutely amazed at how many lawyers read this site.
Isn't "We should be able to find a way to get this code to run on another type of system" fairly obvious to any imbedded-system developer? Emulators alongside cross-compilers being primary methods of testing these things before they end up in firmware.
Then it's VMware style virtualization. The PS2's PS1 on a chip covers only the CPU part; the rest of the system has to be emulated, and the Emotion Engine does a passable job of virtualizing PS1 video onto the PS2 Graphics Synthesizer with all but about a dozen uncommon PS1 titles.
this reminds me of that guy who claimed to have a patent on computer solitaire, dated 1998...
IANAL, but I don't see how this patent could possibly stand up against any sort of scrutiny. How could Nintendo possibly claim to be the first at emulation on a handheld when they so clearly are not fist?
The GBA SP runs no faster than the original GBA.
Don't fight for patent reform! Let the broken system take care of itself.
Let everybody get a patent on everything under the sun NOW. Let the big land grab happen all within this relatively short time frame. Pluck ALL the low hanging fruit. NOW. All together.
Why?
Because in 20 years, give or take, there will be this sudden MASSIVE release of everything that's ever been conceived of, suddenly into the public domain.
Then, the USA can start to catch up with the rest of the world, where people were busy building industries and technology instead of stifling every idea with litigation. If there's still a USA to speak of after that.
You point out that the patent applies only to emulation of a handheld system. Do you claim that the PSone isn't a handheld?
remember in the back of all the booklets, there was plenty of legalspeak about your rights as a consumer pertaining to warranty (its 230am, is that spelled right?)
and then there was a little section at the bottom that said depending where you live, you may be entitled other (=fair use?) rights, and these rights may not apply to you.
i cant remember it off hand, but with legalspeak like that, technically making a mix cd could be punishable by death, but voided by those "other" rights you have.
Every time some asshat tries to sell an emulator something like this happens. While this patent stems from UltraHLE (which was free) you have to remember UltraHLE came out during the actual market life of the N64. Besides UltraHLE, companies really haven't cared to much about emulation, except when some asshat is selling an emulator (bleem!, VGS). While the legal battles that stemmed from those emulators proved emulation is legal. It may not have ever gone to court if the emulators were not for sale. I wish people would quit developing emulators for the purpose of selling them(especially during the market life of the emulated unit). Respect the fact the game makers put up millions in R&D and you are not entitled to any of it! While Nintendo's current way of handling this sucks, and can stand to hurt the emulation scene. The honestly may not of had any other choice. This probably the only time you will ever see say big brother is right.
The past is just the present only older -me-
Read the letter a few times and consult its claims versus the actual wordings of the patent. Then Google up some other cease and decists and take a look at how poorly this one was written. Even to an outsider, this entire thing has FAKE written all over it.
Word on the inside is that the Crimson Fire 'team' couldn't finish the product they tricked many people into paying for months ago and wanted to go out in a blaze of drama. Interesting that Nintendo sent such a notice by FedEx rather than certified mail and waited until the day before release, don't ya think?
Its Illegal To Lie To A Grand Jury, But I Guess Its Not As Important As Playing A Game.
all they need to show is that the infinger did not make a legal copy. Any proof that the infringer downloaded a copy that was not from their source is a checkmate.
How would Nintendo go about proving this in court? The obvious circumstantial way would be to prove that the defendant could not have made such a copy. How do you propose that Nintendo would gather direct evidence that somebody who owns both a cart and a copier didn't use the copier?
According to the patent, this would mean that, say, Nintendo has the right to sue someone that writes a Game Gear emulator for a Pocket PC. Considering Sega already developed a Game Gear emulator for the Pocket PC, this would be considered pre-existing works, so the patent should be thrown out.
I don't know why someone would moderate something so insightful as "troll" (I mean, come on, its not like we're talking about Apple -- theres no reason to squelch legitimate criticism.) Perhaps because it was posted as an anonymous coward. . .
Anyways, I fully agree. Nintendo has crossed a line here that should not be crossed and we must let them know that we will not support it.
If I own a copy of the game, can I get the rom and play it legally on an emulator?
is to stop someone from doing the same for Sony's upcoming PSP
http://www.s4biturbo.com/
And yet, if you think about it, this patent covers so much more.
Want to make a Newton emulator for your Palm? Better pay nintendo.
Want to make a TI-85/89 emulator for your Palm? Better pay Nintendo.
This is a pretty damn outragous patent which Nintendo has clearly shown a will to abuse. It's the very same sort of business tactic which has caused the SCO to earn so much of our ire (though the SCO's target hit a bit closer to home for many of us).
Yes, Darth Vader does think that speaking about himself in the third person makes him sound intelligent and cool.
Listen to Vader
One of the strongly debated issues about emulators is that they are used to play "abandonware" or software that the copyright holder is assumed will never release again.
Well, that used to be fairly reasonable in the 90's when the arcade and console videogame market were in this huge transition towards fully immersive 3D games; nobody thought there would be a future for 2D, and then many old games were automatically assumed to be abandoned forever.
But, the Gameboy Advance changed all that, we are getting re-releases, remakes and rehashes of great, old games because the GBA is not a "3D powerhouse" and it doesn't need to be. I'm actually happy those games are released again, and so are millions of gamers. Just look at how the insane success of the Famicom Mini games in Japan makes the GBA sell even better than the PS2
This is what an emulator really endangers, it makes it more difficult to market an old game, and in fact the argument about "emulators saving good games from the past" is very much reversed as Nintendo can't sell a game to a market that got it for free. And Nintendo of course is trying to (rightfully) protect their IP, it may not be the right way to do it, but what other choices do they have?
OK, I see one alternative. I'm not saying it's good or bad to emulate games, but Nintendo and others should contact the emulators' developers and discuss in good faith about the reality of which games are never going to be released and allow them to be legally distributed and emulated. Of course, this is something very unlikely, but still possible in light of iTunes' success as an alternative distribution model.
Thing is, Nintendo is still a corporation and most of the time it makes decisions that are not popular with gamers, but sometimes you can get good remakes from these decisions. Pac-Man Vs., Super Mario Advance 4 (SMB3) anyone? Nintendo simply doesn't want anyone to compete with their own, official, legal emulators.
I think that for a game to really become abandonware in these new times, it now needs to be abandoned by both the copyright holder AND the consumer, since it is already proven an old game can sell like new. That leaves a lot less room for the emulation scene.
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
Although I do agree the patent on emulators is a bad idea, that is really the fault of the patent office for issuing it (and so many other stupid patents). Nintendo is just trying to defend their intellectual property, which when you consider the heavy competition they are facing these days is completely understandable.
Besides, this is no different than anything Microsoft or Sony has done.
Recently in Japan, Nintendo have been re-releasing some of their old 8-bit NES games on the GBA. So you can buy the original Super Mario Bros. on the GBA now, as well as many other old school NES games legally.
This patent no doubt ties in with the fact that Nintendo want to fleece their back-catalogue.
I wonder if they borrowed a certain GBA NES emulator to get the effect though?
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
What ramifications does this have for emulators like ZSNES?
Oh, and Nintendo doesn't have to worry, I'm only emulating games from the 16-bit era (games I own), because everything they made from the N64 on up (with a few exceptions) has sucked majorly.
However unsurprising it is, this is the side of Nintendo that has always been there. I buy tons of their stuff, and no other company consistently produces innovative games, but they've always had an overactive corral of lawyers, and have spearheaded efforts to do far worse--such as outlaw sales of used copies and rentals in Japan, just to name some of their even more egregious efforts.
Very true. American law is culturally the only law for most commoners in western nations. In Australia, many people believe that they have a right to a telephone call when arrested. This is what they see people asking for on television all the time. Australia's constitution has no such requirement. Police don't need to give you a phone call if they don't want to.
What was that tism song again??
I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
Some of those "public domain" GBA programs aren't exactly public domain by the legal definition of "author has abandoned the copyright." Some of them are under a copyleft license, and PD ROM sites that distribute them without passing on information about how to get source code are dirty pirates. Perhaps I should just include some zipped source code inside the ROM itself in order to force the "complete GoodSet" whores to distribute the source code.
Is an attempt to institutionalise rights violation. Resist it. I've never had any interest in these things before, but now I'm thinking I should find one just for purposes of civil disobedience.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Or we could just forget what's legal and simply do what's fair.
It was fair, though not legal, for Rosa Parks to sit in the front of the bus.
It was fair, though not legal in many states, for gay people ot have intimate relationships.
It's fair, though possibly not legal, for me to play my legaly purchased games from any media I choose on any platform I choose.
When we start doing what is legal instead of what is fair then we lose our most basic right and one that's not even in the constitution; our right to do no more or less than we would have done to ourselves. When we do what's fair then we might lose in the short term, but everyone wins in the long run.
TW
One, two, three.
They aren't the leader of the "video game industry". They're a distant third in the console wars (at least here in the states).
True thier handheld marketshare is significant and likely to remain so for at least a few years (depending on the success of products from competetitors). But that alone cannot offset their spectacular plummet from top of the world to bottom of the heap in the console department. Nintendo is struggling, and acts like these are the acts of a desperate company -- but that cannot excuse or justify them.
I really don't care, Nintendo can suck my nuts.
Please flee in terror in an orderly manner.
Wow, sorry for that asstastic typing towards the end, I need sleep. It should read "They honestly may..." and "will ever see me say..."
You could have a pentium emulator on a Z80
No. The L2 cache wouldn't even fit in the Z80's address space. "Turing completeness" does not apply in the real world because real computers have limited memory and thus qualify as Linear Bounded Automata rather than Turing machines.
Emmulating games which are out of print is fine, but games which are still shipping in mass quantities?
I love those old games. I hear people argue for emulators that nintendo isn't using those old roms anyway.... well I think this is shortsighted. I mean we HAVE been seeing nintendo re-release some of these old games in various forms. The laws allow them intellectual property rights over these programs... and you cant blame them for trying to excercise those rights. They may yet have plans for the old games they own.
I am torn. The free software nut in me wants these legal battles to go away. but the truth is that most or ALL of those games would never have been written for free. I love free software... I am not perfect... but nearly all of the software I use is free.
I can't forget however, that I am the guy that grew up with an NES controller in my hand. I have never been a kid that spent a TON of time on it. I was just as likely to go outside and play as I was to sit down and play nintendo. OTOH I have spent much of my more recent life studying computers and software, and I realize that I owe that to those years of playing good old copyrighted, proprietary, video games.
When I was a kid I didn't worry about making RMS cry. I was too busy trying to figure out what that guy in zelda meant when he said "Master using this And you can have it!". I certainly don't think it should be illegal to make an emulator, or rip your roms for you own use. I strongly believe I should be able to do anything I want with the hardware I own (unless it causes some problem in society, like the death of my neighbors from radiation exposure). This issue DOES illustrate however, what is in my opinion a grey area in the free software movement.
This is the only area where I still have reservations about which side of the fence I want to be on. When I think that great games like Contra wouldn't have been created without the proprietary game market... I feel that maybe us free software guys should be careful what we wish for. Sure there are great free games out now. Bzflag is a good example. But Go look up NES on ebay and think about how many THOUSANDS of console games are out there. I want all these legal troubles to be a thing of the past... but at the same time I DON'T want to hurt the market that created these games.
I just don't know what the answer is anymore.
Obama is a twitter sock puppet
Listen. It's not fair use if you download a ROM off of the internet because it's not a backup YOU made. If you make the backup for private use and don't share it with anyone, then it's fine, but if you make a backup and post it on the internet, then that's obviously not for private use and thusly is why Nintendo's going after them.
Personally my ethics with emulation is that if the system is still available to be bought at most places then emulating it is very bad. Anything else I don't mind. Here's my reasoning. You probably would have to go through fifty hoops and pay out of the ass to get an old game that will probably be used so the company that made it isn't making any money off of you anyway. But with current games and consoles the companies haven't fully milked the games for their worth yet so emulation eats into their market, even if a large number of emulator players are downloading and playing ROMs because they can't afford the real game there's still some that are doing it to avoid paying any money. Since these are video games that take anywhere from 6 months to 3 years to make (when was the last time it took a musician 6 months to make an entire album?) for a a week , I'm more inclined to side with the "big bad" company rather than the emulators on this one.
Also, from what I can read (and I'm not a lawyer, of course) the patent is for "software implementation of a handheld video game hardware platform," which means to me that the emulation is for handheld hardware meant for gaming first and foremost. Don't go all "Nintendo's gone too far! They could possibly stop emulation of [blah] on [blah]!" because unless the first one reads "Game Boy" something, Nintendo probably couldn't give a shit. Nintendo's not SCO. Period.
Flame me away, whoo!
Again, another example of the fucking man trying to make tools illegal. Fucking hypocrites. I'll stop using p2p and emulators when they make gun manufacturers responsible for every death due to a gun shot. WHICH WILL NEVER HAPPEN. WHY? Because our government is in the pocket of the corporations.
I fully support public disobedience. This should be a strength of open source. Change the name of your software, remove all names / copyright notices and release the complete source to the project. INFORMATION CANNOT BE SILENCED.
I love Nintendo, I love Zelda. I bought a GameCube to play Zelda. But if I hear that they sue the developer of an emulator or someone who owns the game they are using a rom of, I will no longer buy Nintendo products. I am not kidding or just saying that, I have come to the point where I do not give a fuck about any of this stupid bullshit. And if I'm given the power and the chance, I will change it.
I seriously doubt that the 'rom community' is hurting Nintendo sales.... FUCK THE MAN.
By the way, Tecmo recently released Ninja Gaiden exclusively for the Xbox console, but as an added value decided to include the original NES trilogy.
Tecmo must have got a license from Nintendo to emulate the games on the Xbox, using a modified PC emulator or a "clean room" one. The only way Tecmo could get away without a license was to port the original games to the new console, because Nintendo is the holder of many patents related to the technology used back then for the cartridges, including a "lockout chip" (really a hardware dongle), and modifying the games to prevent or trick the code to avoid the lockout chip checking would result in a copyright, patent and/or license violation. I think Tecmo saved lots of time and money and went with the license, otherwise the NES games would've been remade better.
Patenting things related to emulation is simply a way for Nintendo to avoid GBA's and GCN's newly discovered market advantage through legacy games to be dilluted with competitors being able to do the same. Expect the PSP to follow on this strategy with old PSone games.
To think about what all these years at this industry can teach you...
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
The United States constitution does not require that you get a phone call either. I think it is a part of the Miranda law or at least something similar. So while it is the law, it's not a part of the constitution.
Time makes more converts than reason
So while you express the "fuck em" sentiment, you stand alone. Your own country is probably considering ways to enact laws that follow the US model even as we speak.
I live in Canada, and like to at least think that no such laws will be created just to follow the case of the Americans. We like to be different, let people copy cds and download music, let people smoke weed, and have our own weird backwards gun laws.
As for the country considering ways to enact laws that follow the US, I'm sure that there are people trying to make Canada a communist or socialist country, but they are the minority (at least for now).
Not everyone wants to be like the US, because we've seen what happens to you when that happens.
The parent quite clearly said they USED to lead...
Amazes me how people can post "Mod Parent DOWN" when they seem to lack basic literacy skills. (not that mine are perfect, but at least I can read....)
Virtual Gameboy version 2.1!! was released in 1999.
Eg.
http://linux.tucows.com/preview/8776.html
Look date "Aug 30, 1999"
Patent filed November 28, 2000.
The (unix) "file" command combined with a shell script could easily do what the patent does. So even if the file command doesn't count(yet), because it does not usually recognize game platforms, isn't this patent lacking the invention depth required of a patent ?
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
It was fair, though not legal, for Rosa Parks to sit in the front of the bus.
But was it fair? Not to the people who thought that she was stealing their space (though now I'm sure they feel differently, and as a society we have definately changed our perception of fairness in this case).
Were the purges in Russian fair? Depends what side you were on.
Does Nintendo think its fair that you can't emulate their games? Damn straight. Do you think it's fair? Hell no.
'Fairness' is not a useful way of determining right or wrong (or correctness, if you don't like the terminology).
They are lagging behind Sony, though only on the home console front, not portable. The GameCube is leading the XBox worldwide; in fact it was never in third. Furthermore, Microsoft has lost money on its games division every quarter, wheras Nintendo has primarily gained money. To say Nintendo is lagging Microsoft just sounds ridiculous.
In terms of using dirty legal tactics, they're no worse than anybody else. Micosoft is the one who's done the most ridiculous thing I've seen so far in trying to stop XBox Linux (even though it's a legitimate use for the product). As far as I know, neither Sony nor Nintendo has voiced similar complaints about Linux on their respective systems. As for piracy, all three use any edge they can to crack down on it.
So how, exactly is the parent Insightful? Am I missing something in this post?
Their patent was filed in 2000. But weren't there already emulators for the first-gen Gameboys way before then? Also, there is a commericial GBA emulator that came out before the first GBA ever shipped... not too sure about the dates, though.
Uhh... It is Softman v. Adobe, and the order is important because the plaintiff is always first.
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
I agree Sega is better, but Nintendo does not suck. They have created great titles just like Sega does. Sega and Nintendo are kind of teamed up. Sega now releases exclusive titles for the Nintendo GameCube AND Gameboy Advance.
Everyone complaining about fair use and backup copies, but lets be realistic. Very few of you out there have ever ripped a cartridge just to have a backup copy. If people were just making backup copies, Nintendo wouldn't be taking the actions they are taking. When you download a ROM and play it without buying the game, that is stealing. Don't lie to yourself, it's stealing, just like if you walked out of the store with the cartridge under your coat. If you actually like the games you play, you need to buy them or they will stop being made. This is basic economics; supply and demand. You cut off the demand, and they stop supplying. If you must pirate something, pirate an old NES ROM, or something outdated that no longer matters.
You're right, people don't view fairness the same way.
But when a massive corporation that only exists for profit decides that it's not fair for me to make personal use of the property I already bought, then I'll take a chance with my version being the better one.
Hint from the Parks case: Bullies only win in the short run.
TW
If it's illegal then start making it legal guys. Unfortunately the 92384729691 people on earth that use emulators aren't going to stop developing and using emulators just because you, Nintendo, managed to get the shittiest patient in history. Sorry but it's just the way it is, and it has been like this even before you were born, Nintendo. Oh sorry i gtg now, gotta get back to my Metriod Fusion on my GBA emulator, I'm planning to finish the game tonight. After that I'm gonna intall Mario Kart for my GBA emulator, which I just downloaded yesterday, along with 983718326 other ROMs, all for Nintendo. So screw you. ok gtg laters.
http://www.palmzone.net
Here is the clarification that you are looking for.
I heard from one of the assistant professors specializing in hardware / digital systems say that, in order to make it fully compatible, Sony had decided to put in the old PS1 chip on the PS2.
A very beautiful architecture, really.
I knew for a fact that the SP was faster than the SNES, but I was unaware that it was NOT faster than the first GBAs. I was, in fact, implying that SP was faster than the GBA(1) - my bad.
For that matter, I wasn't aware that Nintendo had moved to an ARM processor for the GBA (and, by extension, the SP). I'd expected them to use some variant of the Dragonball processors popular in the earlier Palms for ease of code portability. Again, I'm dumb, though in my defense I'd been told by a (less-technical-than-me) hardcore-gamer friend that they had.
The lesson: Trust, but Verify. (And, I guess, keep your mouth shut unless you're damn sure you know what you're talking about.)
Anyone know offhand if the ARM chips use a similar instruction set to the 68K's, or the x86, or a choice of either, or neither? The ARM website doesn't really say.
The only surefire protection against Microsoft infections is abstinence. - The Onion
You certianly make a good point. And, if everyone does what is fair rather then what is legal governments are forced to change laws to favor what the people want, well, or they just become dictatorships.
I don't have time to comment my code, the program is late already.
The patent that Nintendo holds is for emulating the Gameboy on a low capability target, like a PDA or cellphone or seatback display. The people violating the patent are selling an emulator for, guess what, a low capability target.
So, this patent in no way treatens PC emulators.
Sorry buddy, but I don't know where you're pulling your numbers. Nintendo is #2 worldwide, in the US, and in Japan to Sony and is lagging behind in Europe. Otherwise, the X-Box is lagging behind everyone else. Nintendo is far from dead... troll.
At the same time, you can't really fault them for attempting to prevent people from making and playing ROMs of games that have yet to come out. It's not like this is a piece of utility software, it's a luxury item (and an art). Why should they stand by and watch their time and effort go down the drain?
- Nintendo still dominates the handheld market completely
- Nintendo is still #2 in home systems, beating Microsoft, and unlike Microsoft, turning a profit from their home systems
- Sony and Microsoft have done equally bad things in the past, so it's not like ditching Nintendo to go for one of the others is a noble thing
The simple fact is that you may hate Nintendo for doing this, but if you choose to buy Sony or Microsoft instead, then you are just a hypocrite, because they are equally bad, and have done equally bad things in the past. Bleem, anyone?If you are going to let Nintendo know that we will not support this (this which is an idea that I personally support, but that's besides the point), then boycotting them in favor of Sony or Microsoft just shows a serious lack of judgement on your part.
That, Cyberllama, is why the grandparent might as well be modded as "troll" when it's gotten both "insightful" and "interesting" already, without justification.
And the "lagging behind" comment is beyond silly. You cannot say that someone who dominates a market and is #2 in another "lags behind". That, too, shows a serious lack of judgement.
Clever signature text goes here.
Nintedo doesnt go around threatening millions of its users to pay them licencing fee's
Well, that's basically what the did with the NES and SNES..
The difference was, they charged the license fees to the developers. For every single cartridge that they made. They in turn had to raise their game prices to cover that, meaning the players are (indirectly) paying the license fee.
As for the 'threatening', that's also what they did to companies who weren't licensed that developed NES games. (Color Dreams, American Game Cartridges, etc.)
I used my standard handheld (screwdriver) to emulate another handheld (phillips screwdriver), so I guess I owe Nintendo an apology... I showed someone else how to do it too, so does that mean I violated the DMCA since the handheld (screwdrivers) were hardware-keyed for their intended purposes and I circumvented the useage restrictions?
Maybe I should have a lawyer haul around my toolbox for me.
And for those who still don't get it, software tools are just like hardware tools, but the lawyers are trying to make it illegal to do with software what people have been doing with hardware for thousands of years. So if you substitute "screwdriver" for whatever tech or digital tool and the issue suddenly doesn't sound criminal anymore, maybe it shouldn't have been brought up in the first place.
Emulators have been around for a number of years now. This patent should be impossible to grant.
I wish I still had mod points to mod you up.
The government of the USA has declared war on its citizens. Sooner or later the citizens will accept that declaration and fight back. The government will try to placate them with a succession of stupid and pointless toys, but sooner or later the people will see through the lies.
Don't you ever wonder why people want to fly planes into buildings? Why people want to post Anthrax spores to politicians? Look in your own backyard. Beneath the Disneyfied, McDonaldised facade lies the stench of corruption. At the moment, such rebellion as there is is confined to small groups and individuals; they know they have to fight something, but they don't understand what the enemy is, so the effect is uncoordinated at best and counter-productive at worst. If the idea of why crystallises in enough minds before someone can set themself up as a "leader" -- which is always the beginning of the end of any struggle for freedom -- then you might just win.
The United States constitution does not require that you get a phone call either. I think it is a part of the Miranda law or at least something similar. So while it is the law, it's not a part of the constitution.
Of course, the constitution is mostly a quite old document (in the US and even in Australia). Telephones didn't exist (at least as we understand them today) at the time that most countries constitutions were drafted.
Michael
There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
I see that the flames have already begun, and that is not an unexpected reaction when a big company threatens a tiny company for alleged infringement on some obscure patent (obscure to most of us normal people anyway).
But please, take a few minutes to follow the links in the story, and you will notice a couple of things:
First, notice how Nintendo is cracking down on a commercial product - this emulator is actually being sold. The company selling this emulator is making money by emulating Nintendo, and while I'm not quite decided on whether this is actually bad or not, I can actually understand where Nintendo is coming from here. He's making money instead of Nintendo - some people will buy the emulator instead of the GBA itself. It makes sense for Nintendo to do something about that. So they are cracking down on a commercial entity competing directly with them by offering something which emulates their product, not some hobbyist who doesn't make a dime from it. Good or bad? That's not up to me to decide.
But wait, there's more!
Very few comments here seem to mention the fact that this emulator isn't even available yet! That's right, the sales are actually pre-sales. People have been paying for promises of a delivery, and it seems that it is delayed already:
Now, we should probably give the author the benefit of the doubt, and I must admit that I do not know how well known or respected he is, but this seems to be a rather convenient time for the author of the emulator to have an excuse for delaying the product.I'm not saying that something fishy is going on here, but there's always that tiny possibility. If you had sold a product which you promised to deliver on a certain date and failed, wouldn't it be convenient to have something to blame, to be able to postpone the release and continue work on it until it is actually finished?
It would of course be silly of this guy to falsely accuse Nintendo of this, as Nintendo would probably be all over him, but people have done stupid things before, out of sheer desperation... Instead of losing face, people have been known to do rather silly things. And I don't have to mention SCO, do I? Not that they have any face left to lose...
But please people, take the time to have a quick look at the links in this story and make up your own minds. Maybe Nintendo is doing something really bad here, or maybe they aren't. Maybe there's more to this story than meets the eye.
Time will tell.
Clever signature text goes here.
Companies who side with the DMCA and the current unbalanced use of patent and copyright law in aspects that clearly are opposed by the public, from which the pool of their customers comes from, do not deserve one dime. The people are still greater than the entities created to benefit them.
Open Standards Portal
The method is so trivial and obvious, it shouldn't be patentable. In the *n*x world, people have been using the "file" command for years and doing things based on its output.
Everything the patent claims is Nintendo's except for maybe the GB/GBC emulators. The date Nintendo announced (announced, not released) the GBA was August 24th, 2000. The patent was filed on November 28, 2000 (assuming that the filing date is when it went into effect). Now, I've never made an emulator before, but I'd think it's hard to make one for a system that wasn't even out yet. I'm guessing (assuming, even) Nintendo probably made some form of GBA emulator to allow development for the GBA. Also, the GBA uses an emulator to allow GB/GBC games to play (in addition to having the chipset inside, I believe) and so it was the first handheld system to play GBA, GBC, and GB games all in one. Now, if there was a handheld system that could emulate the GB/GBC before that time, Nintendo still holds rights to the GBA because when the patent was filed they were the only ones who had their hands on them (excluding developers). Remember, this is a patent for emulation on handheld systems, so PC emulators don't count. Only emulators that could run on mobile devices. Can anyone dredge one up?
If Consequences dictate course of action, then it doesnt matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get cought.
Nintendo doesn't deserve $30 for ports of old NES and SNES games. We must emulate them, because they're charging too much for quick, cheap easy ports!
Frontier Town, 1823:
"You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to use these bongo drums, or shout really loud for help."
said first type microprocessor that loads and executes emulation software, and parses and interprets a binary image capable of being executed on said handheld video game platform, said first type microprocessor converting, with said emulator software, instructions within said stored binary image for said second type microprocessor into instructions for execution by said first type microprocessor and then executing said converted instructions, said second type microprocessor implementing, under control of said emulation software, a state machine that emulates plural states exhibited by said display circuitry associated with said handheld video game platform liquid crystal display, said first type microprocessor analyzing, with said emulator software, said binary image to determine whether said binary image constitutes a predetermined video game title...
I don't know what it means. But it looks a bit like html metatags trying to lure in people searching the web for the word "said".
Old people fall. Young people spring. Rich people summer and winter.
If things really get bad, I'm going off grid in Saskatchewan.
Revolution was possible "back in the days" because the government and corporations did not have so much control over informatio - and so many ways to gather them. The way it is now, any large scale attempt will be squashed and branded as terrorism before they can even launch an attack. Combined with the fact that they will be branded as attacking the population and painted wrongfully in the media the general populace will most likely not support them either. And since you neither have control over a majority of the army it would be impossible to stage a coup-de-etat and overthrow the government by arms, as there is a standing policy "not to negotiate with terrorists", meaning it will end in bloodshed, but there will be no revolution.
Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery?
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
I understand that slashdotters love their fair use rights more than a black man loves his chicken... But come on! It would be nice to be able to make back up copies, but come on already, it isn't even a God-given right to play video games, its a priveledge that us assholes take for granted. You could live just fine without backup copies, or without video games at all for that matter. You can't sit here and compare that to something like Rosa Parks.
Just like the title of the article says, Nintendo Patents Handheld Emulation, Downs Crack.
The ______ Agenda
I wonder if we could use the internet 2 to download and play nintendo roms?
Well thats nice, but what about the DMCA?
If somebody wants to emulate legally without copying the cartridge, buy a GBA cartridge reader that reads the cartridge contents for immediate use by the emulator.
The "copying" accusation goes away, "fair use" stays. Don't worry too much about the patent, it will go away as soon as a competitor is sufficiently pissed off.
C.
C.
Hell, this is not the first time a company tried something like that to get rid off unwanted "competition".
The bad thing is that it's gonna take a real case in court to either get rid of the patent (see prior art) or make it unusable to Nintendo (as it would be acknowledged that it only covers recognition what kind of system has to be emulated).
The real ironic thing is that if Nintendo were to use it against free emulators they might only hurt themselves - the coders might have to say uncle, but then they could leak the source-code into the web *woops to Nintendo*.
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
The Abstract of the Patent says: A software emulator for emulating a handheld [...] on a low-capability target platform [...]
This seems to exclude current and recent PCs and Consoles... is this also said in the full text (havn't found it, but my head cought fire halfway through...)?
nothing.can.stop.me.now
Not really... By american laws you are also allowed media format change, which in my view (IANAL) is what an emulator is. Of course, i presume that for it to be 100% legit you would have to keep the original hardware...
After all, we only use emulators because it is more pratical then having loads of hardware connected all over the house... right?
I was wondering if given these patents it would be possible to remain on safe grounds by clearly prohibiting downloads of your program from the USA (this is NOT against USA, I love the country... but I hate those patents).
Considering that I don't live in the US, and that in my country there are no software patent laws, is there any way I can excempt myself from being subject to such laws?
Diego Rey
diegoT
bah .. we are updating our constitution around 4 times a year here in switzerland
stop supporting microsoft with pirating their software!!!!!
I ran a Gameboy/GameboyColor emulator on my Sharp Zaurus that identified which platform to emulate by the image more than a year ago. I'm certain examples go back further than that. Because Linux runs on many handheld platforms, any emulator for Linux should count as prior art.
This is the perfect example of the disgusting software patent. You shouldn't be able to port existing features to a particular platform and patent the result. Then again, if you can patent swinging sideways...
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Since a lot of you keep saying that under the DMCA, you're allowed to make a backup of any electronic media.
But, unlike tapes, CDs, DVDs which a backup can be played on the device it was intended for, a backup of the games can not.
Also, to those who keep crying "fair use", and think that you have the right to backup everything you own, and who play emulated games, how many of those games did you actually pay for?
I'm pretty sure that a good chuck of the people who play emulators, don't own the original game, and most likely have never even owned the console.
Firestorm gbaZ has commited all three emulation sins.
The first is emulating a current system
The second is emulating a handheld system on another one
The third is to sell the emulator
For those who keep crying "fair use", let's assume for a second that it's 100% legal to backup every piece of software/electronic media that you own (tapes, CDs, DVDs, computer software, games ...)
... more specifically, an emulator that can emulate multiple consoles, and I believe one that runs on handhelds.
Where do emulators fit in to this?
It's not a backup of the actual console, it's a piece of software that has been created to "emulate" pieces of hardware (which yes, does contain some software too).
So where does this fit into "fair use"?
From what I've read, this isn't about whether or not you can make a back up of the game (which makes no sense, since how are you going to play a backup without using something that the original game wasn't intended for?), it's about the actual emulators
Hear hear!
Fairness *IS* relative, but at this point in the game, the American legal system doesn't protect citizens rights quickly enough. The same held true during other civil disobedience exercises.
Fairness may be relative, but life has never been black and white.
It's none of Nintendo's business what I do with their software in my private home anyway.
Bill
Your Miranda rights are indeed within the Constitution, just not explicitly. The Constitution was interpreted to hold certain rights which were spelt out by the Supreme Court in Miranda v. Arizona. The rights are certainly not part of statutory law, nor are they explicitly written out in the Constitution, but they are in the Constitution.
As if Nintendo haven't had enough negative press recently (deserved or not), it now decides to make an ass of itself and attract even more negative press.
Crash and burn, Nintendo. Crash and burn. Your enemies can't buy such wonderful publicity. You embracing patents and unleashing lawyers ensures that I will never ever buy another one of your products. I'm already thinking of giving away my Gameboy Advance SP - I now feel filthy for owning it.
I give Nintendo 24 months before it will be a software-only company making games for the Sony Playstation 3 and Sony PSP. And I'll be glad when that happens.
Claims:
(...)
analyzing, with said software program, said stored binary image to detect whether said binary image constitutes a predetermined video game title;
Just load any binary file and run it, providing crash info within first 3-5 instructions, without testing if it is a binary image or a junk file. Omit "image recognition" piece, don't try extract info like game name, country region and such for user info, just assume all necessary data is there and crash if it isn't.
No detection? No patent.
By the way, you can couple a separate settings file with this data, so it isn't the binary image that is being analysed. The analysis performed by completely different program incapable of emulating.
So, you take "extract.exe zelda.rom" and it creates "zelda.emu" with all patches.
Then bundle them in zip and spread. Download, launch "emulator.exe" and load "zelda.emu" which automatically causes load of "zelda.rom" which is assumed correct. No binary analysis to predetermine whether it is a game needed.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
First of all, since emulation is old business, no one can claim patent of a generic emulation method. If such a case was possible, then Windows NT should not allowed to emulate DOS (since it uses the virtual 80x86 mode), Apple could not run 68000 apps on power PC, Bochs would be illegal, as well as thousands of other emulators. Therefore, emulation itself is not illegal.
Secondly, the patent applies to emulating every part of the GBA package. If the emulation was split up to various parts, and the end user simply put pieces together, Nintendo would not be able to claim patent violation. For example, person X does the (commercial) CPU emulation, person Y does the video emulation, person Z does the sound emulation etc. Then, Nintendo can not charge any individual that violated its patent, because each part does not emulate anything by itself.
Of course, downloading pirated roms is illegal, let's not forget that.
Just so long as I own the ROM, isn't it fair use to transfer it to different media?
How about those high capacity flash roms that will hold multiple games? Why should I not be allowed to copy 10 games I own into one of these so I only have to carry one cartridge?
Is this a joke? Are you seriously trying to suggest that these are in the same league? Frankly, I find these sorts of thoughtless comparisons rather offensive. People died fighting for civil rights.
Besides, why is it more "fair" to be able to play the same game on any media on any device, while only buying one copy? I can see that it's cheaper, and more convenient, but I'm really not seeing the "fair" here. You bought a game for a specific device, and it plays (presumably) on that specific device. I agree that it would be "better", but I don't think it would be more fair.
So what am I supposed to do with all those games that are no longer made anywhere? Am I supposed to rely on my fond memories of playing contra on the NES? Am I to envision what it was like to play my way through 7th Saga on the SNES? How can they possibly argue against a technology that keeps things like that alive when they are shunned by the very companies that made them? Nintendo is again missing out on an opportunity here. Charge for emulators, do something like what the IPod is doing with music. Have a fee to download an emulator and some ROMs. For an industry so worried about copy protection, you'd think they would figure this out...
A while back someone was selling blank game boy cartrages. Just insert into a specal cable and load the game boy rom images into them.
The old game shark for the NES (if I remember correctly) copied the game cartrage into a RAM cartrage and the codes you entered would alter the ram copy.
(Being ram the copy was gone the instant you turnned the NES off)
As I remember the NES cartrage was basicly off the shelf roms and some additional chips. Presumably the locking was in those chips. Once your able to replicate (or fake) the locking chips you can make full cartrages and the game shark proves it can be done.
I don't actually exist.
Emulation was already found legal, back when Readysoft was selling AMax on the Amiga. Apple sued and lost, IIRC, which set precedent. IANAL, but emulation in and of itself IS legal.
FC Closer
Which free emulators which satisfy the claims of the patent? You did RTFP, didn't you?
Yeah, competition often has that effect.
..as a patent being obvious to someone skilled in the art. Emulators for another generic computer system, whether its a handheld, a camera or an aeroplane are as natural as breathing in the software industry, so I would be pretty surprised if they could get this one to hold up.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Firstly, the whole issue of old games ROMs and Abandonware is very grey anyway. The games companies and authors that own the rights to older games do not accept or approve of the free distribution of ROMs or Abandonware - it's more of a case that there is simply no point from a financial perspective in them taking up legal litigation against ROM/Abandonware sites. If they did, they would need to prove some financial loss as a result and how can any of them prove financial loss from the free distribution of a game that is no longer sold anyway?
Secondly, the interest in emulation is growing globally. To the games manufacturers, this purely means that more and more people are now playing more and more older games free of charge rather than spending money on new games. Sure, the volume of sales of each game is much more than it was, say, 15 years ago in the days of the Commodore Amiga, but then development costs of each game have skyrocketed also so the overall profits are much tighter. The console and games manufacturers definitely do not like free emulation, no matter how much emulation sites claim to be doing it to "preserve games historically", etc. etc.!
From my perspective, the state of computer games is similar to that of the state of music sales today. People are buying more games and music than they ever were but the market for both is now totally saturated - in the case of music, most sales result from people buying older music, possibly through replacing of old vinyl LPs with CDs.
With older games, a few companies have made commercially emulated games available on some platforms (e.g. "Atari Arcade Hits") but these have not sold particularly well because anybody who has an Internet connection can go get hold of MAME (or another free emulator) and a few ROMs and get them for free.
It's going to be interesting to see how the games companies react to this in future.
The music companies are already seeing that they cannot simply continue fleecing the customer for more and more money without putting out truly innovative product unless (in their minds) they start bringing in DRM and copy-protected CDs. In actuality, it's simply about adaption to a change in customer demand, all of whom want the ability to put music on portable players, download individual songs at a fair price, etc.
In the same way, emulation reflects a change in customer demand to the games market. There's a lot of older people, myself included, who spend more money buying CDs of albums released 20 years ago and more time playing games released on platforms that are anything up to 20 years old rather than buying the new products.
In the cases of both music and games, the vendors in both markets need to realise that the markets are now totally saturated and that not everybody wants the latest CD by the latest boy band or the latest state of the art graphics in a game.
It's time for both markets to adapt to customer demand and rather than spending billions of Dollars/Pounds/Euros forcing sub-standard new product down our throats with advertising, they need to simply listen to the customers.
Most emulation fans will have no problem paying for commercial emulators or old ROMs provided that the price is fair to reflect the age of the products, in a similar way that we expect back-catalogue CDs to be cheaper than current releases.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
about the USS IRC?
Waters, ether, whats the difference.
+&x
there needs to be more discussion of MAME as it relates to prior art! This article was the only one (at the time i read) that even mentioned it!
Pull out an old Gameboy game, Nintendo, SNES, N64 instruction manual. If you read the very back with all the legal info, they specifically say that backup copies are not required and are not legal to make in any way/shape/form. With CD's, yes, backup copies can be made, but with information stored on actual silicon chips, no, you cannot make a backup copy.
Could this be a sign that we'll be seeing GBA games on the DS?? Emulating games on a handheld system... emulating a GBA on the DS to play GBA games.... HMM!?
Yes. *crosses fingers*
...unfortunately no one can be told what The Mat^H^H^HGoatse is...they must experience it for themselves...
#1 - Emulation of chips has been around for a heck of a hard time. Emulation itself shouldn't be a patentable concept anymore.
#2 - Emulation of a system on a less-powerful system has been around since people were programming Commodore 64 emulators that would run on a 286 or an Amiga.
#3 - They claim that frameskipping is something they invented. BULLSHIT. See the C64/Amiga emulators above, or any other emulator ever written.
#4 - The moving of an emulator from desktop to handheld system isn't anything new. Even if they somehow claim that prior art doesn't exist, handheld systems have forever had games and applications programmed for them, the porting of emulator applications is merely "logical next step" and CANNOT be patentable under patent regulations.
Fuck you, Nintendo.
Oh hell yeah
Nintendo is really pissing everyone off. It'll only be a matter of time before Sony says, "Sure we'll take the Zelda namesake... How much? 10 million? I don't think so, how about a million?... Yeah? I know you guys have bills you need to pay... Alright thank you! buh BYE!"
The usual scare stories abound. This patent isn't a patent on hand-held emulation. It's a patent on certain techniques (supposedly inventions) used to emulate a game. The patent discusses the background by showing how some existing emulators fail to run fast enough (for example) and then goes on to show how they improve over this.
So Nintendo don't own "hand-held emulators", they merely have a patent on some techniques for implementing good ones. And I bet a bunch of those techniques have prior art. I remember well in the late 90s that companies like SDS had some really smart real-time emulation capabilities for their debugging technology, using techniques to lock-step with real-time and to emulate peripherals in a cycle-accurate fashion. I saw a demo of Space Invaders written in BASIC running on a 68020 emulator running on a Windows laptop, even emulating a small B&W LCD screen controller "connected" to the 68020. Now if they'd been running a Linux laptop with VMware that would have been truly impressive!
K.
I've been working on virtual machines and emulators for six months now, and I read most of the scientific litterature of the field, and I can tell safely there *is* "prior work of art" regarding the patent of Nintendo, which then shouldn't have been granted by the US patent office (but well, we all know how well it works, don't we).
This means the said patent can be proven invalid in court, so there is nothing to worry about.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
start selling roms as a download for other platforms. Nintendo and the others make their money on games played on the PC and not so much on console sales (though the idea is to keep you locked in). People could play their games where they wanted to and then they'd still make $$. It would give new life to their older games too. Then they'd have more right to crackdown. I have no desire to buy the latest Nintendo system, PS2, XBOX, etc., but if my computer could emulate them, I might buy a few cool games. I have a portable laptop afterall. Why do I need more portable crap?
"I wish people would quit developing emulators for the purpose of selling them(especially during the market life of the emulated unit)."
I understand the sentiment, but I'd like to add my own two bits to it. The reason emulation programs do and should start out while the console is on the market is because it usually takes a long time and a lot of work to code an emulator that actually works on a decent amound of games. Even if a working emulator is released during the console's lifespan, PCs at the time are usually too slow to emulate the games at full speed. The only exception I can think of is the emulators for portable systems because they are so slow compared to general purpose PCs of the same period.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
I agree that this tiny, insignificant example is nothing compared to the struggle for civil rights.
However, it's symptomatic of another problem that very well might become a bigger fight than civil rights: government and corporate control over information. Consider this: as new technology is introduced, the government has been quick to use it to violate the privacy of its citizens. Why can the FBI listen to your cellphone conversations without a warrant, when they need permission from a judge to tap your landline?
I know, right now, these concerns are only being raised by the tinfoil-hat people, but how much further will it get before reaching critical mass? The American people have shown that they're willing to fight their government when it goes too far. How much farther will that be?
"Whether you have an authentic game or not, it is illegal to copy a Nintendo game from a cartridge or to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet."
Greedy bastards.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Now what am I supposed to do with my 1400+ GBA ROM collection ?
Um...has anyone seen the price of the Zodiac? It's like $300!
It would be cheaper to buy a GBA or GBA SP and some games...
"Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
Is this a joke? Are you seriously trying to suggest that these are in the same league? Frankly, I find these sorts of thoughtless comparisons rather offensive. People died fighting for civil rights.
If people are being sent to prison (or could be sent to prison) as a result of copyright related matters, then that puts it in the same league.
And even whilst playing an old game on an emulator may be seen as nothing compared to matters of sexuality, the same kind of laws cover all sorts of areas that dictate the level of control private corporations can have over information that people have paid for. Imagine you're blind, and are legally prevented from listening to ebooks that others can read - is that a trivial joking matter?
Want real representation? Check out Condorcet Voting.
Constitutionally Correct
Kyle just said it - he plans to release the emulator (with a couple changes) and fight Nintendo in court.
'Fairness' is not a useful way of determining right or wrong (or correctness, if you don't like the terminology).
Well, if by "fairness" you mean the "sniff test", I agree.
However, it is possible to try to create a definition of fairness that can be used to create criteria of the rightness and wrongness of actions. Jowhn Rawls" constructed one such theory, which is at its heart very simple. One way of explaining it is to imagine that we are about to sit down to play a game, and have to agree in advance on the rules governing each player's role. The rules are fair if we would agree to it not knowing in advance which role we are going to be assigned.
This is actually a lot like the Jewish concept of tsedaqah, which is usually translated as "rigtheousness" but could also be construed to mean "objective". Objective in this sense: you should remove the overwhelming effect of your subjective stake in the outcome of an action from deciing on whether it is right or wrong. For example you should assist the poor because their condition objectively requires assistance and it won't really hurt you that much to help.
Of course taking this approach means that you then get to argue about whose definition of "fair" is correct. However it's an intrinsically more honest process, because you have to accept the consequences of your definition, whereas the sniff test doesn't put any constraints on you.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"Whether you have an authentic game or not, it is illegal to copy a Nintendo game from a cartridge or to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet."
;)
Nice to see we have people who know nothing about law making uninformative comments
The thing that pisses me off about that is, the people who DON'T know any better will actually believe that. You sure you don't work for Nintendo?
You're just worried because I am going to frag your ass. PWNED!
Seriously, this does mean that there will be a ton of FPS games, but there will also be other games. Puzzle games, adventure games, racing games, etc. It would cool to have a Tomb Raider portable game. Hell, what about a trimmed down Vice City? Now THAT would be cool!
You're partially right, US SNES consoles were never prevented from playing Japanese games, however I think most cartridges did have region chips in them.
:)
I live in the UK and owned a Japanese Super Famicom and I was unable to play UK or US games without an adaptor. Naturally the US games wouldn't fit without a bridge adaptor (or hacking lumps out of the cartidge port) but Nintendo eventually got wise to this and prevented US games playing on Jap/UK machines. To get around this importers had to buy new adaptors which allowed two cartridges to be plugged onto them, one cartridge was the game you wanted to play, and the other supplied the region checking to fool the console into thinking it was playing a game from its region.
The absolute best reason buying adaptors was for PAL Mario Kart, because of the extra lines of the PAL TV system the PAL version would have run slower or had big borders. Happily it was full screen and optimised to try and make it as fast as the Jap/US version, so when playing on a US/Jap machine in NTSC mode it was the fastest of all the versions.
The NES was actually region locked internally for Europe which was easily remedied by cutting a couple of wires!
Purges fair from the other side? You sir are not human and on top of that a fucking retard!!!
I am not a lawyer, but I know that lawyer is wrong. If you have an authentic copy of the game you wish to play, you can legally copy it and use it. It is governed by "fair use" under copyright laws and patents don't make a lickin' difference in that case. The copyright laws are based on the US constitution.
I think that lawyers knows it, and if he's try to sue me for doing something I am constitutionally allowed to do, I would sue him back for perjury.
Don't believe everything lawyers say. It's their stated objective to speak only on the behalf of their clients'.
I repeat, it is too legal to copy a Nintendo game, a porno movie or whatever content that you have legally purchased (even regardless of the EULA), and use it for whatever you wish, as long as you don't distribute it. These are inalienable rights.
If that were the case, and people would wise up, then perhaps some of the foolish copyright laws could be relaxed and more work would enter the public domain. Mickey Mouse should be public property at this point.
I hate liberals. If you are a liberal, do not reply.
PRIOR ART. Keerist. How old is mame? Almost a decade?
I'm somewhat confused as to how this makes any legal sense at all. It appears they have been granted a patent which they use for squashing out prior art. Hoe does this even make sense?
I agree with you in regards to the difference between CDs/DVDs/tape and videogame backups, but I think the reason a lot of people use emulators is for nostolgic purposes. Yeah, I'm sure there is some freak SOMEWHERE who actually WANTS to play a GBA game on a 300 dollar Zodiac, but I'd have to argue that the predominant use of emulators is by people who want to play the classics they grew up with but can no longer get their hands on. Myself, for instance. I own a GBA SP and love the system and its game selection, but I aslo have an NES and SNES emulator loaded on my laptop just in case I ever get that "craving" while on the road. Furthermore, I do still own an actual NES and SNES system, with about 20 games or more for each, and have no problem paying a fair price to add to my "physical" game library for these systems.
Speaking of which, I've been in a Gamestop (a used+new video game store here in the states) a few times recently and the employees there tell me they're shipping all of their Gensesis, NES and SNES games back to HQ, whatever that means. My first suspicion was that maybe some major game developers/publishers (Nintendo, for example...) were going to start releasing some of the backcatalogue. From what I understand, the recent Zelda collection that you could get with a Gamecube over the recent holiday season had the system flying off the shelves, and they're releasing a Megaman aniversery collection sometime this summer. Maybe a trend is picking up? Let's hope they can keep things reasonably priced.
--
Is it me, or did it just get fatter in here?
I suspect that most of the "improvements" they list in the patent seem quite obvious to anybody who knows anything about emulators or computers (I thought only non-obvious things were patentable). E.g., one of the improvements is to store the emulated instruction pointer in a general purpose register. That's absolutely obvious. When I and a friend of mine sat down to write a 6502 emulator around 1992 in 8086 assembly (which we never finished alas), I am sure we did that--we would have been dumb not to, because it was so obvious. The business of choosing the platform based on the file put in is also obvious--autodetection of file formats for all kinds of purposes has been around always. And while a combination of obvious things CAN be non-obvious, the combination looks pretty obvious--just throw together a bunch of stock optimizations.
On a very cursory reading (and not by a lawyer), the one thing that looked less than perfectly obvious was the particular method of skipping frames when getting behind. But if that's what's new, then that's all that should be patented.
By the way, is there a law against making false legal claims? E.g., claims denying a right to backup IF indeed there is such a right, or notices at the beginnings of videos that say that all copying is prohibited by law (even though just about everybody should agree that, e.g., copying a non-central ten second segment of a three hour film to show to students is legally acceptable fair use--various guidelines allow significantly more, in fact).
So what does this mean for the recently released Activision Anthology which emulates the Atari 2600 on the GBA (and presumably had Nintendo's blessing, as it has their seal of quality on the box...)
"There are people who do not love their fellow human being, and I _hate_ people like that!" - Tom Lehrer
I don't know if it's legal to make a backup using a flash cartridge. Nintendo probably doesn't really care. It's when you distribute that ROM. And it is illegal to download a ROM from the Internet, even if you have the game or not, I think. Illegal distribution of their intellectual property.
Slashdotters can bitch and moan about it, but is it really that bad? It's their property, and they can decide how to distribute it. We don't get to; they do.
If any part of the patent is its weak point, I think the "limited capability devices" part will be it. Tapwave Zodiac Specs state:
" Two easily accessible expansion slots let you add anything from memory to content to SDIO cards. Double the fun. Double the expandability. Pump up your memory to 1GB with the latest cards. Drop an SD card into one slot and view a video or a photo album. Use the other to switch between your favorite games. Or maybe add a digital camera. The options are nearly endless."
Nearly endless is a long way ahead of "limited capabilities". If the Zodiac is far more capable than the GBA, does this patent apply to emulators running on it? I'm an anal butt - err - IANAL, but, I think Nintendo thought too small when they drafted the patent and it doesn't cover a lot of modern technology - like the Zodiac.
Mame already decides what "emulation" to used based on the ROM. Has for years and runs on my pocketpc.
Nintendo - innovate and we'll buy!
...only outlaws will write emulators.
Feh. Nintendo can suck it.
An addon for the Gamecube with a USB cable so I can download all previous titles from nintendo.com and play them, save states, cheat, connect with other players for 4 player games of gauntlet if I'm on the internet. This is the only excuse they can have for trying to get a patent. If this never happens, nintendo is dead to me. Much like metallica.
The Constitution was written before the invention of the telephone, and even the telegraph. It does, however, guarentee the right to counsel. Miranda, a small time thief in Arizona, got arrested for breaking into, and robbing, a pool hall in a town he was staying in. Because of previous convictions he was immediately apprehended. He couldn't afford a lawyer, so he represented himself. The D.A. at the time was only allowed to handle serious crimes for free, murder, rape, that sort of thing. Petty theft wasn't one of them. After he got sentenced Miranda issued a hand written letter to the Supreme Court, after he read the Constitution, and eventually the Supreme Court ruled that District Attornies were required to offer their services for ANY criminal case. They also made up some other requirements like the phone call. Miranda didn't know what his rights were when he was arrested, and the Consitution was interpreted to mean that a person has to know their rights before they're handcuffed.
Learn something new.
and niggers, too.
Don't each of the claims count separately, and not just the last one?
Why bother with ROM emulation at all? The flash or cell-phone or game that hasn't blatantly copied the concept of an early Nintendo or Atari game is a rarity. Based on the unusual gameplay of some of the games that I've seen ripped off, I bet the cell-phone game programmers go to flea markets or eBay and buy up obscure games just so that they can copy the gameplay and concept and then rename them. I'm guessing that you can't copyright the concept of a game, only the title and manual, so illegalizing ROM emulation for the sake of profitting off of old games again is a moot-point: people are already captializing off of the game, possibly upgraded or modified slightly, under a different name.
~Ben
I have a great idea. I will develop emulator emulator which will emulate a emulator. Let's see 'em patent that! Huzzah!
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
See http://www.emuboards.com/invision/index.php?showto pic=10979&st=30 - looks like they're going ahead with it anyway.
Oops, that doesn't work... try this link.
If i own the real device i will use the ROM in a damned emulator if i want too.
That would fall under 'fair use'.
And patenting 'emulation' give me a break, there is prior art back from the mainframe days..
This is really getting out of hand...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Wile not a handheld by any stretch of the imagination, emulation has been around much longer then Nitendo has been in business on
.but now that the patent has been awarded, who will have enough $ to have it revoked.. Its all a scam.
the 'big-iron'...
That should qualify as prior art.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Is emulating dead hardware on dead hardware a crime? Oh, I hope not.
Never pet a burning dog.
That patent only covers emulators that know about specific programs and have special built-in tweaks used when those programs are running. If you just do a straightforward emulation of the whole machine, there's no problem.
How about the demo ROM of Nanoloop, which you can download from their site? Is that suddenly illegal too? Heh.
I believe it's an interpretation of habeas corpus, which is in the constitution. Someone needs to know you're in jail, so allowing you to call someone to bail you out is generally acceptable. I'm sure some legal geek around here can provide the court precedent.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
D00d does anyone have a crack for this?
Were the purges in Russian fair? Depends what side you were on.
What a bunch of bullshit. OF COURSE THEY WEREN'T FAIR!
The problem here is that you're engaged in typical circle-jerk moral relativism arguments.
The problem with that is it relies on the ridiculous notion that the are no "absolutes", and thus we cannot judge anyone.
I'm an atheist/agnostic and even I'll tell you that's total B.S. The holocaust was wrong, genocide is wrong, murder is wrong, etc. Why?
People's basic human rights were violated.
Sure, there's no idiot-proof definition of "fair" but that doesn't mean the concepts of "fair and "unfair" are worthless. It just means you need to use your head a little bit.
Here's a question:
Is it fair for me to stab you in the leg?
Obviously no.
Now here's the really neat part....
THAT'S WHY IT'S ILLEGAL!
There's just something fundamentally wrong about me stabbing you in the leg for no reason.
You're going to get pissed off (assuming you have a functional nervous system) and we're going to have trouble getting along after that. You're going to think that I SHOULDN'T have done that, and if I have a decent conscience, so will I.
It's for the good of all society that we don't go around stabbing each other in the leg, this is why it's both morally wrong and illegal.
Life is too short to proofread.
Both Gambit and Liberty, Gameboy emulators for Palm OS, precede this by at least a few months.
= 67
Nintendo CAN'T claim to have invented this stuff.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID
I believe this patent could be defeated in court. If you remove "handheld" from the patent, then UAE would constitue prior art. So in fact, all Nintendo have done is taken a process already well-known when they filed, added "handheld" to it, and claimed it as their own. I do not believe that this is sufficient to claim that they have invented something new and non-obvious to somebody schooled in the relevant field, which is the litmus-test for patents. The only problem then is to find somebody with deep enough pockets to challenge Nintendo in court...
if it werent for emulation, I wouldnt have been intrigued to buy their games.
not to mention there are games that cant be played anymore.. like for the super nintendo... I mean, if you buy a super metroid cart.. small chance of it holding saves, or working properly, my sega genesis games, I HAVE to emulate, since most gaming stores dont carry them anymore and my current copies are corrupt from being played too much (seriously, it happens.. cant play sonic & knuckles without severe glitches that make the game impossible to play, playing it about 2,000 times at least did that)
Nintendo is not taking action against copyright infringers. They are attempting to exterminate emulators. Just like in the 1980's when the MPAA attempted to exterminate VCR's.
If you actually like the games you play, you need to buy them or they will stop being made.
Fine, then you should quit defending Nintendo's attack on emulators. Instead you should be asking for download sales of the cartidge rips. That would be a lot easier and more attractive to emulator owners than buying a cartrige and attempting to rip it themselves. Nintendo would lose out on some console sales (so what?), but those sales would go to game authors.
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Infringment == theft rant below
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When you download a ROM and play it without buying the game, that is stealing. Don't lie to yourself, it's stealing, just like if you walked out of the store with the cartridge under your coat.
Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985)
"the rights of a copyright holder are `different' from the rights of owners of other kinds of property
the copyright holder owns only a bundle of intangible rights which can be infringed, but not stolen or converted
It follows that interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion or fraud."
That's not a defence of copyright infringment. It just means that it is important not to confuse it with theft. Copyright law is very different than property law, and it is SUPPOSED to be very different than property law. When people think of copyright as some sort of "intellectual property" they often come to the mistaken conclusion that copyright law is the same, or should be the same, as property law. When they see copyright law is different they think there must be something wrong with copyright law and attempt to "fix" it by trying to turn it into property law. That just results in severely broken copyright law.
You may as well have claimed that slander is stealing.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Indeed, however in this particular case there's court precedent, as I've seen from your first link. Specifically:
Although the legal basis is not completely settled, many lawyers believe that the following (and many other uses) are also fair uses:
Making the roms is both a back-up copy, and format shifting. Using the rom in an emulator is personal, non-commercial use. I think there's a real strong case there if nintendo decides to sue. Nintendo lawyers know this, and that's why Nintendo has taken up the patent. If they sue, they'll sue them for violating the patent, not for violating their copyright.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
had a chip built into the cartridge so that I.. I mean, so that the friends of inlaws of people I once knew couldn't use those 3.5" disk consoles to copy it to ROM (or so I heard). Someone told me it was to help process the intensive 3D graphics, dunno if that's true.
IF i own the real device i will use the ROM in a damned emulator if i want too.
So what you are saying is that you don't own the original gameboy, nor do you own the games?
Yeah, Nintendo protecting their games from all you free loaders is really getting out of hand.
"The rules are fair if we would agree to it not knowing in advance which role we are going to be assigned. ... For example you should assist the poor because their condition objectively requires assistance and it won't really hurt you that much to help."
Devil's advocate: I am a rich person who believes that I earned my money, and that people are poor only because they are slackers. In my view, we all started off in the same roles, and if I slacked off like they did, then I would *deserve* to be poor, and to expect help from others would be unfair.
Or: animals, and black people, are MADE to serve white people. That is their natural function in the universe, in the same way that the natural function of stones is to fall. If I were born a black person or an animal, I wouldn't expect to be able to do the things white people can, because I wouldn't be a white person. Nothing unfair about it.
The point is, it's very easy for someone to *claim* they would agree to be put into any role if they have the point of view of the better role.
"If you look 'round the table and can't tell who the sucker is, it's you." -- Quiz Show
Kyle Poole of Crimsonfire (make of Firestorm gbaZ) just announced that the emulator will be released early next week under the GPL!
Though optimized for the Zodiac, this will allow porting to all Palm OS 5 devices.
But those games are 20 years old!
Before you go off on your high and mighty soapbox about piracy.. a Clarification:
I dont even play games.. so it doesnt directly effect me. However the concept of what they are trying to pull is outrageous, and deserves to be struck down..
Thus why i said "IF"..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I was speaking of all of Bung's copiers as well as all of Doctor 's copiers.
Bung, which produced the Doctor copiers and may have been linked to the Visoly copiers (given the appearance of the Flash Advance linker and the GB-Xchanger), may have been an isolated case. There apparently wasn't as much of a homebrew scene when Bung was around as there is now, and homebrew seems to legitimize copiers.
having a trademark header in ROMs doesn't count since copying that to get a game to work is covered under Sega vs Activision (though in that case, Activision lost not because of copying a trademark to get games to work but needlessly displaying it on screen (something you can't get around on a GBA, which is Nintendo's fault)
That was Sega v. Accolade, 977 F2d 1510 (9th Cir. 1992), and Accolade won, in part because Sega failed to produce enough evidence that there was a way to not display the logo.
Now, all of this means to me that the law needs spelled out to cover fair use of software on any device one wants to (which, to me, is very comparable to bablefish).
Atari v. JS&A Group happened before Sony v. Universal (the Betamax case), which started down the road to legitimizing consumer copying. Also notice that the JS&A court interpreted only 17 USC 117(a)(2) as not applying to what you call "hard goods" but didn't touch on 117(a)(1) (authorizing copies and adaptations necessary to run a program on a given computer) at all.
Plus, in the future, GBA cartridges may not in fact be hard goods. Rumors have it that given the high cost of producing small to medium quantities of large mask ROMs and the insuitability of optical media for a handheld device to be used by children under 7 years of age, Nintendo is investigating switching from mask ROMs to a form of flash memory.
That patent was filed at the end of 2000, well after emulators for systems were already out. Looks like they are trying to use the *easy* patent office to get around the fair use, and reverse engineering rights people have.
And this is why I've grown tired of discussion on Slashdot. These morons (referring to the grandparent of this post) come onto Slashdot without ever having taken a philosophy class or read any philosophical material and proceed to make judgements of morality. Same goes for not being lawyers and attempting to make legal arguments. I, personally, think that philosophy should be a required subject in highschool (for those who finish highschool). I think such a requirement might be a step in the direction of a better country.
Yes, but if you make a copy you can argue product dilution which, in effect, does affect the inventory (and, obviously, profits).
Actually, even if you do have a contractual relationship with Nintendo, any clauses in the contract that contravene existing law are illegal and unenforceable.
Several years ago, I left an apartment before my lease expired; I'd purchased a house, and moved into it, partly because the management of the apartment complex refused to repair the air conditioning in a timely fashion. Where I live (Phoenix, Arizona), air conditioning is considered an essential service if it was available in the apartment at the time that the tenant moved in. The property managers tried to get me to pay for the remaining months in my lease, going so far as to keep my deposit to cover part of what they claimed I owed them...
During the dispute, they specifically pointed out a clause in my most recently signed lease agreement, which stated in part that "the management shall not be held liable in the event that repairs can not be performed in a timely fashion." The wording is important, because Arizona's Landlord-Tenant laws specifically state that repairs to essential services (water, air conditioning, etc.) must be performed in a timely fashion. The attorney that I consulted with had a laugh over that -- it's impossible to remove legal rights with a contract. A contract can grant rights that wouldn't otherwise exist under the law (as long as those rights don't explicitly violate some other law), but it can't take them away. The GPL would be an example of a contract that grants rights in addition to what copyright law already provides.
Of course, companies like Nintendo can still try to enforce such contracts, and the mere threat of legal action from such a large company is enough to make most people back down. Thus, such contractual clauses are an excuse to use lawyers as an intimidation tactic to prevent law abiding citizens from exercising their rights.
PS: [the razors/blades business model] does not apply to Palmpilot/PocketPC...but then, they're not handhelds, but PDA's.
What is the theoretical difference between a "handheld" and a "PDA"? Is it that a PDA has a touch screen?
Mask ROMs do not suffer from bit rot.
Nintendo is reportedly switching away from mask ROM and toward flash memory because of high manufacturing costs for higher capacities such as the upcoming 256 Mbit GBA game paks and the game paks for the new Nintendo DS. (Current GBA game paks are 32 to 128 Mbit.)
As far as I can tell, it is still extremely difficult to get your hands on: A. The ROMS you could want B. Emulators that play said ROMS good. If it was such a problem, Nintendo would have listened to me when I wrote them an email asking if they would be interested in hiring me to go after people distributing ROMS. As it is, they ignored me... They didn't even offer anything in return for information. No motivation for me to help them out... They tryed to sue me once when I made a N64 fan site... (which I didn't get anything out of; I did it to support them) Whatever happens, I could care less, because Nintendo signed their death warrent when they stopped caring more about the games, and started focusing on anti-piracy. (example: custom mini-dvd using bca on gamecube) We COULD have had a decent system to do homedev on... but NO, they had to use proprietary discs.)
For the record, I do think anyone who sells ROM CDs and/or emulators they did not develop, is nothing but scum.
Two emulators that I use for testing my own GPL'd homebrew ROMs are themselves GPL'd, and I have every right to sell CDs containing the emulator source code, its binary, my homebrew ROM source code, and its binary. Am I scum or an exception?
Miranda v. Arizona (1963) built upon the Gideon decision and established that the Fifth Amendment's privilege against self-incrimination requires, among other things, that a suspect be advised of his right to remain silent and his right to receive legal counsel.
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The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
1994? Did they also invent the microcode emulator I made in college in 1997?
As opposed to something that isn't a massive corporation, I suppose. I guess a puppy dog. Or a pencil.
It's been a long time.
Tyler and I watched fight club 37 times, does that count?
It's been a long time.
I don't think I've ever seen "Fuck Them" used so many times as a subject in a thread. Incredible.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I think the law needs to be updated on archival copies. Currently the law allows you to make a backup copy in case your software/cd/DVD or whatever gets broken and cannot be used. That sucks for cartridges because there is no way to play your archival copy if the original breaks except in an emulator, which Nintendo is now saying is illegal. I think there should be a law where if your legally purchased copyrighted product breaks, you can send it back to the manufacturer and have them send you a new copy for free (not even pay any shipping), unless they give you another valid option such as playing the game in an emulator and making a backup copy.
I'm sure there is a Turbo Grafix emulator. They released a handheld that ran the same cartridges as the console. Pretty cool idea actually.
I'm beginning to hope that pirates out there step up their efforts to the point that software and other media industries really do suffer. I don't think that there's much of any hope on the politcal front. The lawyers run everything. Everyone else is just along for the ride.
"Fine, then you should quit defending Nintendo's attack on emulators. Instead you should be asking for download sales of the cartidge rips. That would be a lot easier and more attractive to emulator owners than buying a cartrige and attempting to rip it themselves."
Attempting to collect fees for downloading ROMs is as futile as the battle against MP3s. Going after the emulators seems like a much more feasible way to stop the problem. There are far fewer emulator developers than there are pirating ROMs. With no emulators, the demand for pirate ROMs is reduced significantly.
"Nintendo would lose out on some console sales (so what?), but those sales would go to game authors."
How can you say "so what?"? Do you believe it is ok to reduce sales of their console with infringement? Without the console, lots of those games wouldn't have been made. The hardware and the game developers are not completely separate. They are dependant on one another. When you hurt one, the other gets hurt as well.
No, they can be like us, BENT OVER AND FUCKED IN THE ASS by the government on an hourly basis! At least they don't have to pay the "Copyright Levy" on their blank media! Nothing like being branded a criminal and fined just for buying blank CD-Rs to back up my documents or store family photos! All in the name of supporting the Canadian music, film and television industries, who wouldn't need the support if they produced anything I was remotely interested in. Poor Americans, they have a constitution that forces things like the right to free speech on people, and forces judges to interpret the law, not re-write it as they see fit! And it would be so terrible if our constitution defined the timing of elections, rather than just saying that they are to be held at the Prime Minister's discretion and leisure! The fact that you state that we allow people to copy CDs implies that you have probably been too loyal a supporter of the British Columbian independant farming community.
Check out my foes list to see who is so retarded that they can't use the signature line!!!
Do you believe it is ok to reduce sales of their console with infringement?
No, it is ok to reduce sales of their console with a COMPETING console for sale. Even if that console is someone else's hardware "clone" (just like IBM PC clones), or even if that competing console is a "software console", and even if the competing console is a software clone of their console.
Consoles get cloned, and there's nothing wrong with that. Hell, the original Atari 2600 was cloned, though it was around the time people started switching to Intellivision and Colecovision.
The hardware and the game developers are not completely separate. They are dependant on one another. When you hurt one, the other gets hurt as well.
There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with individual companies making less money because a legitimate competitor entered the market. Not only did Intellivion and Collecovision "hurt" Atari 2600 sales, but the Gemini and the Kingsway and the CCE Supergame VG-2800 and the Dactar and the Funfair 2600 and the Funvision and about a dozzen other systems were ALL CLONES of the Atari 2600. They all "hurt" Atari, but they were all perfectly legitimate and perfectly legal.
Virtually every PC made today is an IBM PC CLONE. All of the clones certainly "hurt" IBM. If you think there's something wrong with that then you are saying there's something wrong with the entire modern PC universe.
Various game platforms are introduced, they compete, clones are made, and through it all game authors will write software for whatever the newest and most popular platforms are out there.
Attempting to collect fees for downloading ROMs is as futile as the battle against MP3s
They ARE selling music downloads.
And they are selling them despite the fact that they are DRM CRIPPLED files, despite the fact that they are quite OVERPRICED, despite the fact that they only offer a LIMITED SELECTION out of their available catalog, and despite the fact that they were about FIVE YEARS LATE to join the markent and had to overcome the five-years entrenched free P2P alternative.
The recording industry handicapped themselves FOUR TIMES OVER and they are still managing to attract customers. Don't you think they would have a lot more customers if they were to offer ordinary non-crippled MP3's for sale? Don't you think they'd get a lot more customers at a more reasonable prices? (The cost of selling downloads is insignifigant compared to the cost of pressing disks and packaging and distributing and middlemen and retail outlets etc.) Don't you think they would get a lot more customers if they offered their full catalog for sale? And don't you think they would have dominated the market had they started selling downloads back in 1998 or so when Napster first made it bloody obvious that it was possible to sell downloads and that there was a demand for them??
The only reason there are no MP3 downloads for sale is because the RIAA simply refuses to serve the demand for them. Refusing to sell MP3's - the product people want - is purely self-destructive. It's not like there's a danger that selling MP3's is somehow going cause that song to appear on P2P, every song is already on P2P.
The primary driving force in the explosion of P2P varients is because the RIAA left a vacuum in the market for MP3 downloads. Nature abhors a vacuum, and the market abhors a vacuum. A "black market" for MP3 downloads exploded to fill that vacuum.
You can't collect fees selling ROM downloads if you simply refuse to offer them for sale.
Going after the emulators seems like a much more feasible way to stop the problem.
Yeah, and outlawing paint and magic-markers will pretty much solve the problem of graffitti. But paint and magic markers and emulators are all PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE AND LEGAL.
The MPAA tried to get VCR's outlawed in the 1980's. You are doing the same thing. You're not fighting infringment, you're fighting a legitimate product that can be can be used by someone who comitted infringment or it can be used perfectly legitimately without infringment.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
" who wants to pay $30 for a GBA port of a SNES game when you can download the original for free and play it on the Zodiac?"
Exactly. Who wants to pay for a legal copy when you can just download one which doesn't give Nintendo recompense for their hard work? Woops, I guess that's why!
I can see if you own it, but chances are, most people don't own a Link to the Past.
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
I want emulators because I am a purist and I get frustrated with the tiny little changes Nintendo continues to insist on making when they rerelease a classic game on the GBA. Link, Yoshi, and Mario now make their annoying N64/Gamecube sounds. Yoshi and Caped Mario can no longer bounce from saw to saw in the Cheese Bridge Level. You have to buy add-on cards to get powerups. If these were complete remakes of the games I might understand, but when games are mostly unchanged, the minor changes become very distracting and do nothing but alienate the nostalgic audience Nintendo is marketing the games to. I personally bought and discarded copies of Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, and Zelda: Four Swords, because I couldn't deal with the annoying changes that were thrown in.
If you want an example of a remake done right, look at Metroid: Zero Mission. It's a complete remake of the original Metroid, taking full advantage of the GBA's new technology. It's a great new game on it's own, and as a bonus, it includes an emulated and completely unchanged copy of the original game. The only enhancement is that it saves your password for you so you don't have to write it down. This way you get to play through an entirely new game filled with homages to your old favorite, and then get to play through the original for old times' sake. With Zero Mission I felt like I got more than my $30 worth and walked away a very happy customer, unlike the other remakes (SMW,Yoshi,Zelda) where I was paying new-game price for an inferior version of a game I already had.
I hope Nintendo learns for Zero Mission's popularity and continues to follow its model. If not, I will exert every effort I can to circumvent their meddling: be it by emulation or other means, I am determined to play the ORIGINAL game.
That's not true. You can be handcuffed without being read your Miranda rights. You cannot be interogated without being read your Miranda rights.
Time makes more converts than reason
I love how every one of you is on this high on fair use. I know the emulation scene, and its a bunch of people downloading and emulating games they DO NOT HAVE in order to save money on either the software or the hardware.
Every one of you is throwing out bits and pieces about making a copy of a game you already own... be fucking serious for a second. If you own a GBA and make a ROM copy of it, is it worth the time and money to buy the converter tools to copy it to your PC? Then you scour the net to find an emulation program (lets say VisualBoyAdvance) to play it... for which it doesn't really feel like a GBA anymore.
Basic fact is this: Just buy the software for your game consoles and take care of it. Stop trying to bitch and bend the rules to defend piracy because you are cheap and disrespectful. That rule of of making a backup copy of software is old and redundant especially with the internet and its ease of use to send copyrighted material.
Game companies and publishers are people just like us with families to feed and MANY hours of work put into their products. How would you feel if you were in their position and people were copying your software left and right screwing you, the developer and publisher. IT JUST IS NOT FAIR TO ANYBODY.
I honestly think most of you need to grow up and realize the real world. Even if you are all still in your 30's.
Here.
I've been pitching this concept for a few months now...
Crash & Burn - Executive Summary
Working under the tentative title Crash & Burn, we have assembled a team of engineers from the golden age of video games to launch a new platform of commercial emulation software for the Sony Playstation 2, Nintendo Gamecube, Microsoft X Box and Windows-based PCs.
Our goal is to develop the finest gaming experience we can offer fans of video games of all ages. From replicating the experience of arcade gaming to preserving the game library of enthusiasts, our top priority is the creation of a platform for the enjoyment of new and classic arcade games, as well as classic console titles from previously popular game systems.
Operating on roughly $350,000 in 'sweat equity', our engineering team has coordinated the design of a multi-platform software title, and a software delivery system for game sales via broadband connection. In addition to this new direction for console gaming, we have developed two complete video game systems for further exploration. Each of these products may be manufactured and distributed by the company, or released by an existing software publishing house.
Our first planned software title, intended for all three major console platforms as well as the PC, allows users to purchase classic arcade games such as 'Donkey Kong' or 'Pacman', console hits such as 'Sonic The Hedgehog', and even modern arcade games, via an Ethernet connection, now optional on all three game platforms. Licenses to more than 5000 video game titles are available from copyright owners. These ROMs (Read Only Memory images) are currently heavily pirated, providing no revenue to the industry at large.
As the U.S. video game market reaches 50 million modern consoles in use, the potential for a successful family of emulator software is ever increasing. Metered, pay-to-play and direct ROM sales are market trends on the increase. By licensing the ROMs we sell from arcade and console game manufacturers, we are assured a growing software library without expensive software development.
A single code base will allow this company to release any number of game collections for the four largest platforms for video games. Once developed, new collections of ROMs can be released with little to no additional development costs, or sold via broadband connection.
Our secondary project is a portable emulator system designed to replicate the arcade experience with a large, rotatable monitor. This off-the-shelf hardware design will provide a standalone platform for ROM sales, to be released when production costs reach levels that make such a system profitable.
In addition, we have in development an advanced augmented reality gaming unit that represents the future of video gaming. It is our intention to finalize the hardware and develop a software Application Programming Interface for this entirely new approach to video games, the immersive blending of the real and digital worlds. This advanced research has also led to a consumer electronics product that turns any wall into a giant video display.
Video game platforms, and often video game companies, have unacknowledged shelf-lives. At Crash & Burn, we recognize the volatility of the video game market. We intend to have an impact, grow our sales to a profitable state, and exit by selling a fully developed software and hardware company, sustainable for the long-term.
We possess a lucrative business model, patentable hardware and software designs, and a uniquely qualified board of directors. It is our hope to encounter adventurous investors with the savvy to bring a profitable venture to fruition, capitalizing on the vast video game market in the U.S.
Crash & Burn - (318) 255-4923 - jasonzc@yahoo.com
The point is, it's very easy for someone to *claim* they would agree to be put into any role if they have the point of view of the better role.
Yes. From a practical standpoint, you can't truly repair the "veil of ignorance" once it has been pierced. Once you know that you are going to draw the white male aristocrat ticket, you naturally will start to view things from that standpoint.
However the importance of an idea like this is that it gives us a reasonable framework to analyze an otherwise vague ideals like "fairness". I look at it this way: you can't build an ideal mechanical system free from friction, but the proverbial weightless frictionless pulleys are still analytically useful.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The very limited archival copy exception to copyright laws is set forth in 17 U.S.C. 117(a)(2), which specifies that the owner of a computer program can make a copy "for archival purposes only." Even if it were otherwise permitted, which it is not, playing a copy of a Nintendo game on the Zodiac system is not "archiving". Moreover, 117(a)(2) does not allow the owner of a game to make a copy of a game ROM that someone else possesses, or to post a copy on the Internet for distribution. Therefore, whether you have an authentic game or not, it is illegal to copy a Nintendo game from a cartridge or to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet. Isnt this an American law being used against a Canadian citizen?? I would just dismiss this letter (although the patent stands)