Operation FastLink Yields Three Arrests

Doomrat writes "As promised (see previous story), Operation FastLink has led to the arrests of 3 key members of the Fairlight group. NHTCU officers and local police executed search warrants and arrested three men at separate locations in Sheffield, Manchester and Belfast. Over 200 computers have been seized, along with 100 CD copiers. Raids were carried out in the UK, the U.S., Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, the Netherlands, Singapore and Sweden."

Comments

So much for...

[Dimensio]

...my pirated copy of Spiderman 2.

Re:So much for...

[revmoo]

Farlight was a games group...

Not a good effort.

[Anonymous Coward]

They will never stop piracy 3 people at a time.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Laz7]

how many people do those three feed with goods though? If you make it harder for people to access things, you can hopefully reduce the amount of traffic. Will it work? *shrug* Probably not ... but they have to try something. Justify their jobs and such.

Re:Not a good effort.

[LostCluster]

They will never stop piracy 3 people at a time.

They didn't just catch three people in this operation, but they took down several servers, some of which the operators might not have realized were even being used for warez distribution.

In the perpetual cat-and-mouse game, the cat has just scored a few points.

Re:Not a good effort.

[bersl2]

The majority just use the goods and have nothing to do with the original illegal activities.

Re:Not a good effort.

[grazzy]

hehe, as if.. we're not talking small amounts of data here exactly... its something you'd notice..

Re:Not a good effort.

[Goldberg's Pants]

I've never known any pirate who did it to make money. I know a guy who distributed for profit, but he was a wanker and as soon as people found out they stopped supplying him.

I hope the articles figures at the end come to pass. Reduce piracy by 10%... Then we can see clear evidence that all these figures thrown around about losses from piracy are utter bullshit.

For over a decade now the software industry has always put out figures that say they lost X millions of dollars due to piracy, but they do that by counting every pirated copy as a lost sale, which is of course complete fiction.

It's funny. They say about taking Fairlight down, but back last year Fairlight said they were quitting the scene anyway.

This "war on piracy" is a storm in a teacup. Law enforcement rattles a few sabres, takes down the members on the fringe. Prune the branches a little, but the central tree is still there.

And to think, there's probably rapists, murderers etc... Who would maybe have been caught had the resources for this been diverted to real crimes instead of pissant cracking groups. So nice to see that the streets are now safe from some software pirates, while shits like Ken Lay and weasels from the likes of Enron and other completely corrupt boards who defraud tens of thousands of people continue to go free. Nice to see the priorities are right here...

And in the article it says someone was arrested for BUYING software from Fairlight... Since when is buying pirated software an arrestable offence?

Law Enforcement: Proudly Bought to you by the software companies of America...

Re:Not a good effort.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope people like you land in jail for supporting the billions in theft that occurs each you. Its sad really.

If your principles forbid you from pirating a grammar tutorial then please, please, pay for one. Thanks.

Re:Not a good effort.

[LostCluster]

hehe, as if.. we're not talking small amounts of data here exactly... its something you'd notice..

Only if you're smart enough to be looking at bandwidth stats. You'd be amazed at how many small businesses and even local branches of government have nobody bothering to monitor that.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Jerry]

But stopping three people who are putting out hundreds/thousands of bootleg CDs is easier than trying to get 1000 who create just one or two bootleg CDs.

Besides, now the perps will know that they could be nailed at any time because the Law is watching for them.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Anonymous Coward]

And to think, there's probably rapists, murderers etc... Who would maybe have been caught had the resources for this been diverted to real crimes instead of pissant cracking groups. So nice to see that the streets are now safe from some software pirates, while shits like Ken Lay and weasels from the likes of Enron and other completely corrupt boards who defraud tens of thousands of people continue to go free. Nice to see the priorities are right here...

Here we go again! Would you suggest that we only address the most heinous crimes and ignore all of our other laws? Most of the laws we have are there for a good reason, and they should all be enforced. If we don't enforce all of our laws, why even bother writing them if all we really care about are rapists, murderers, and corrupt board members?

Re:Not a good effort.

[LostCluster]

And in the article it says someone was arrested for BUYING software from Fairlight... Since when is buying pirated software an arrestable offence?

When you know for sure that's what you're doing. Most consumers on a New York City street corner have a "plausible deniablity" where they can claim that it might have looked a little funny, but how could be sure that it was really a pirate DVD until they took it home? However, when you know you're funding a pirate... then you're part of the operation by supplying the money.

Re:Not a good effort.

[JaredOfEuropa]

I've never known any pirate who did it to make money. I know a guy who distributed for profit, but he was a wanker and as soon as people found out they stopped supplying him.

I bought a warez CD once (yes: bad, bad me)... It was sold from an ordinary apartment with a family living in it. Not a single computer in sight... and frankly, these people did not look like the types who might own a computer, much less use it to copy and distribute software. They did have boxes and boxes full of various warez CDs... obviously they had a lot of customers.

The whole thing looked like a front, and it might as well have organised crime painted all over it. That family was just selling the disks for someone else, in exchange for a small cut of the profits. Granted, this was quite a while ago, and it might well be that organised crime has taken a step back now that most stuff can be had for free on the Internet. For a fact, I see very few 'proper' (i.e. pressed rather than burned) warez CDs anymore, although from what I hear, organised software piracy is still rampant in places like the middle east, Asia and China.

Since when is buying pirated software an arrestable offence?

"Traficking in stolen goods". Knowingly buying stolen goods is an offence in many countries. I'm not sure how this would apply to software, since it isn't really stolen, but illegaly copied. Who knows? It might be illegal as well (IANAL).

Re:Not a good effort.

[MattyCobb]

Here we go again! Would you suggest that we only address the most heinous crimes and ignore all of our other laws? Most of the laws we have are there for a good reason, and they should all be enforced. If we don't enforce all of our laws, why even bother writing them if all we really care about are rapists, murderers, and corrupt board members?

I think what he was suggesting is that other crims, such as rape, murder, and corporate corruption, should be concentrated on much more than people pirating video games. Also, piracy is different. Murder, most people will agree is bad. However with piracy it depends on if you agree with the law or not. I for one pirate tons of movies. Sorry, I do. I download movies first ALWAYS. If they are good I THEN go see them in the theatre. Same with CDs. I have a huge collection of DVDs and CDs. If I actually like what I download, I go out and buy it. If its crap, I delete it and move on. I see nothing wrong with that. I am not taking money away from creative artist. I am just making sure that those people who make crap don't get my money and the people who actually make GOOD movies/cds/games do.

... that and I have to find SOME justification for my ungodly expensive home theatre setup that I blew like 1/2 a years pay on :)

Re:Not a good effort.

[nomadic]

I think what he was suggesting is that other crims, such as rape, murder, and corporate corruption, should be concentrated on much more than people pirating video games.

I dare anyone here to say with a straight face that they honestly believe that the police focus more on anti-piracy efforts than rape, murder, and corporate corruption.

If he really was suggesting that, why? I mean, why suggest the police do something that they already do?

Also, piracy is different. Murder, most people will agree is bad. However with piracy it depends on if you agree with the law or not. I for one pirate tons of movies. Sorry, I do. I download movies first ALWAYS. If they are good I THEN go see them in the theatre. Same with CDs.

You have a point, piracy is different, but it still is the law. If these groups want to engage in civil disobedience to protest this law, fine, but civil disobedience does require actually submitting to punishment.

Re:Not a good effort.

[bygimis]

That would be true if the CD's were stolen, rather than being an infringement of copyright...

Re:Not a good effort.

[D'Sphitz]

And to think, there's probably rapists, murderers etc... Who would maybe have been caught had the resources for this been diverted to real crimes instead of pissant cracking groups. So nice to see that the streets are now safe from some software pirates, while shits like Ken Lay and weasels from the likes of Enron and other completely corrupt boards who defraud tens of thousands of people continue to go free. Nice to see the priorities are right here...

So next time you're in a car accident, or your home is burglarized, or someone swipes your wallet, you'd have no problem if the cops didn't show up because they're all trying to solve rapes and murders? Hell, why on earth are we paying cops to enforce speed limits and arrest shoplifters when the manpower could obviously be put to better use catching murderers.

According to your plan, our only rights are the right not to be raped or murdered. Rather than trying to fabricate ill thought out justifications for your blatant criminal activity why don't you just admit to yourself that "yes I steal and I have no remorse". Maybe you'd retain at least a tiny bit of respect for not insulting my, or anyone elses intelligence with your lame excuses.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's funny. They say about taking Fairlight down,
but back last year Fairlight said they were quitting
the scene anyway.

fairlight did shut down. However enough members
decided to keep on going, begged the leaders to be
able to use the name. Leaders, graciously, let
the name go, but asked to notify people that old
leadership quit and that this is new fairlight.

This is also the reason why Fairlight for last
year has been dragging behind.

And in the article it says someone was
arrested for BUYING software from Fairlight...
Since when is buying pirated software an
arrestable offence?

No, the idea is that there was a member of
Fairlight who sold warez to some high scale knock
off artist.

So FBI started fighting knock off artist, followed
to his source and found out it was someone from
fairlight, since Fairlight was king under old
leadership they figured that Fairlight is still
a good target to go after to scare everyone else.

And hence we are here.

Re:Not a good effort.

[silentbozo]

Most of the laws we have are there for a good reason, and they should all be enforced.

Yes, we should go about enforcing every law, no matter how trivial, stupid, or potentially abusable it is. Otherwise, how would people realize how trivial, stupid, and abusable that particular law is? As it stands right now, the real cost of all the stupid brain-dead laws on the books is hidden, because they're selectively enforced. They lie there, on the books, like landmines, until they're needed to selectively target a specific group (ie, gangs), or until some hapless joe trips over some rarely enforced regulation, and loses life, limb, or property over it.

The other part of it is that passing laws that aren't enforced (or that are just plain stupid) does nothing to promote respect for laws in general. If you pass a law, you'd better be serious about enforcing it, along with all the enforcement and social costs of doing so. Otherwise, don't even waste taxpayer time and money by proposing ANOTHER LAW just to give some bozo politician a chance to spout out sound bites.

If we don't enforce all of our laws, why even bother writing them if all we really care about are rapists, murderers, and corrupt board members?

Because politicians need to justify the salaries they draw that they keep raising, and because they need to "be against" something, in order to distinguish themselves from their challengers. Gov. Schwarzenegger's proposal for a part-time legislature is sounding better all the time - give them too much idle time, and they just end up proposing stupid laws (like the Calif. State Senator who is proposing a law to make GMail illegal... and which would also incidentally make services like virus scanners, spam filters, etc. illegal as well.)

Re:Not a good effort.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you produce a quote from any of them saying that civil disobedience doesn't count if you don't get punished? Sorry but the idea is just stupid.

Re:Not a good effort.

[maximilln]

-----
how about something else, some wanker hacks into your computer and sets you up as the relay to spam porn all day through your university connection
-----
The local police view that sort of thing as a joke. More than likely they'd cart off the student. "Oh, you were _hacked_, we get it... riiiiiggggghhhttt."

-----
How about something more minor. Say, a credit card thief gets your details
-----
It goes more like this,"We're sorry, sir. We'll be more than happy to remove those charges once we have a police report of the incident."

So you call the local police. "Let me get this straight. You have no idea who stole your credit card info, or how they got it, but you want us to file a stolen identity report for these extra charges on your credit card? I'm sorry, sir, first the city is going to have to ask you to talk with a city appointed psychologist at your own expense 'cuz we just don't believe you."

-----
thats what they are, Criminals
-----
The real criminals are the salesman, lobbyists, and marketers that convinced world governments to spend billions of taxpayer hard-earned money to put Microsoft produts and the x86 architecture in schoosl, businesses, and offices worldwide. Conveniently there's no law against flat out bald faced lies when it comes to businesses and sales. "Absolutely, Mr. Senator, sir. This really is the best quality product for the taxpayers money. Now, if you'll just sign the bottom line here, we'll promptly take a 10-year advance contract, regnegotiable at our discretion, so that we can have the money it's going to take to saddle OS/2 and Motorola with lawsuits or buy out their distributors so they won't be able to compete."

Re:Not a good effort.

[0racle]

It amounts to the same thing in general, in both cases you have no right to the end product. The punishments are not vastly different either, its not like someone's going to be charged with a capital crime just because someone said 'Trafficking Stolen Goods' as opposed to 'Illegal Trafficking of Copyrighted Material.'

I have this feeling that if someone pirated some software that someone here on Slashdot was using to support themselves, they'd be just as gung-ho about prosecuting them.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Slack3r78]

It depends. At the school I go to, there was a kid busted for running a warez server which had apparently been up for some time. From what I understand, the reason he was caught was because the school upgraded their connection - while in the past it was common for the bandwidth to be maxed out at all hours of the day, suddenly the extra bandwidth allowed them to notice suspicious spikes in activity that shouldn't have been there.

True, there are other things that an admin can watch for, but many schools simply don't have the budget to pay someone to constantly monitor all traffic in and out.

Re:Not a good effort.

[TheScottishGuy]

100 cd "copiers" not burners, as near as i can tell these are the standalone duping units

Re:Not a good effort.

[Famatra]

"you suggest that we only address the most heinous crimes and ignore all of our other laws?"

Nah not ignore the law, change it. Let us reduce copyright and enshrine fair use in law.

Let us stop the corporation before they outlaw libraries and we need their permission to borrow or read any type of copyright, including books, videos... anything.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Dun Malg]

So next time you're in a car accident, or your home is burglarized, or someone swipes your wallet, you'd have no problem if the cops didn't show up because they're all trying to solve rapes and murders?

Please. Just try and get a cop to come out and take a report on a stolen wallet or a residential burglary in a big city. And car accidents? Unless someone has to leave the scene in an ambulance, they won't even stop. They already selectively apply manpower to the areas they have determined are imnportant.

Re:Not a good effort.

[nomadic]

Can you produce a quote from any of them saying that civil disobedience doesn't count if you don't get punished? Sorry but the idea is just stupid.

Thoreau (from Civil Disobedience):

I know this well, that if one thousand, if one hundred, if ten men whom I could name--if ten honest men only--ay, if one HONEST man, in this State of Massachusetts, ceasing to hold slaves, were actually to withdraw from this co-partnership, and be locked up in the county jail therefor, it would be the abolition of slavery in America.

Gandhi (from the Nobel website):

With a great deal of success he [Gandhi] introduced a method of non-violence in the Indian struggle for basic human rights. The method, satyagraha - "truth force" - was highly idealistic; without rejecting the rule of law as a principle, the Indians should break those laws which were unreasonable or suppressive. Each individual would have to accept punishment for having violated the law.

Martin Luther King (in his "Letter from Birmingham Jail"):

One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Goldberg's Pants]

The point I was trying to make is the resources spent on this Operation "Waste of Taxpayers Money", not just financial, but man power, time etc... Would be far better spent elsewhere going after criminals that actually pose a danger to society and not the stock price of a software company.

I'm not justifying what pirates do, but having a huge global operation across multiple countries so massively co-ordinated... I mean really, say the FBI arrested 3 confirmed serial killers tomorrow. Society benefits. They arrest three software pirates... WOW! The streets are safe again!

You pick any random person on the street and say "Who would you rather the FBI catch? Murderers or software pirates?" the answer you'll get is pretty damn obvious. It just strikes me that the amount of time and resources put into police work these days by the FBI is directly akin to how much money the people behind it have.

As I said, it's been bought (in every sense of the word) to you by America's Software Companies.

I can't remember the road, but there's a major road in the US where there is a serial killer on the lose currently. I'm sure people around where he (or she) is preying on women can sleep easy in their beds knowing that so much time and money has been spent on taking some really nasty software pirates out of the scene for a little while.

Law enforcement shouldn't be wasting their time and money to take down software pirates. It's a matter of priorities and akin to setting up a global sting to bring down hardcore parking violators. People would say that was absurd, but it's essentially the same thing. "Stealing" (such a ridiculous statement to use in regards to COPYING software. It's copyright violation. It's not theft. Just because the companies say that, doesn't make it fact) parking spaces. It's as equally stupid.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Goldberg's Pants]

Funny, I was thinking about this just yesterday.

Libraries have been around for hundreds of years, and a lot of people in the corporate world want them banned. (Seriously, do the research.)

So I was thinking, you can go and borrow books for free... Books have been around for hundreds of years... And then I thought of a more modern invention. The video tape. You have to PAY to borrow them from a video library.

Draw your own conclusions. You don't need to me to hammer home what the point is.

Sure, have maybe a couple of guys trying to infiltrate the software cracking groups to take them down, fair enough. But a massively global coordinated takedown like this? Gimme a break. That's like the police busting down your door for copying that Doors album back in High School.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Goldberg's Pants]

Only an idiot would knowingly buy pirated software. Any asshat knows you can get it for free, ergo I doubt he knew he was buying dodgy software. Okay, he may be incredibly stupid but, sadly, being an idiot isn't a crime.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Goldberg's Pants]

Erm... And quite where do you get that from what I said? Did I once imply that other crimes were irrelevant? Of course not. Don't be retarded.

The POINT that you so obviously missed is there's these thieves walking the streets in the US that are KNOWN TO BE THIEVES. THERE IS EVIDENCE APLENTY, but because of who they are, they're ignored, but some jackoff in his bedroom cracks the latest Securom version and dumps it on the net and all of a sudden he's public enemy number one. (Okay, number two behind Osama. Bang up job finding him FBI...)

It's a complete overreaction. If you don't believe me, go read The Hacker Crackdown, the book about Operation Sundevil. THERE is the FBI in all it's glorious overreaction, and this new operation is very much akin to it, only a much more expensive scale.

I chose two serious crimes to counterpoint, but burglary, fraud, all of them are of course BAD crimes. Software piracy, outside of the US and it's beloved DMCA, is little more than copyright violation. Being in posession of pirated software in England... They can't prosecute you. There were cases in the mid 90's that were thrown out.

You're a typical misguided troll who completely twists a post to his own agenda. I'm not making ill thought out justifications for my blatant criminal activity. Where, exactly, did I say it was justifed? Come on, fucking highlight it you stupid shit. You can't, because I didn't. You're just jumping to conclusions like a typical slashbot.

Software copying is copyright violation, NOT THEFT.

"Sorry D'Sphitz, we don't have the resources to investigate why you were so viciously anally raped, we're busy arresting software pirates."

Sleep tight.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Goldberg's Pants]

So they've gone after a cracking group that's really, just a pale imitation of what it was.

HAHA! That perfectly highlights what I was getting at.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Goldberg's Pants]

To save wasting time replying to you with what I just posted elsewhere, go read it.

In short: Not making the "important crimes only" argument. My argument is the resources spent on this absurd little fools paradise would be far better invested in more serious crimes.

The scale of the "crime" involved does not warrant the resources invested in it. That's like taking all the man power from, say, a serial killer investigation, and putting all the time and effort and man power into catching a hardcore gang of taggers. The outlay of expense in both financial and non-financial terms is in no way justified.

To put in more physical terms, it's like having a broken nail, and cutting your hand off to get rid of it.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Zan Zu from Eridu]

They didn't just catch three people in this operation, but they took down several servers, some of which the operators might not have realized were even being used for warez distribution.

That's bullshit. I know some people who've been raided here in the Netherlands, and I can tell you that almost all of those confiscated servers were in student dorms and connected to university networks; most of them on 100mbit lines, some on 10mbit lines.

It's the fat lines those groups are after, you would need thousands of cable/dsl lines to "race" an ISO (these groups are in competition to get the cracked versions out as fast as possible). And they're not hacking those boxes, they're paying for them with status as a "courier" or with real money. I know students who've been offered 100 euro a month or more to put a 10TB server in their room.

Re:Not a good effort.

[kubrick]

The whole point of civil disobedience is to outrage society (and spur them to action) by the injustice of the punishment. The idea that it's just some sort of "majority rules" determinant of acceptable behaviour is ludicrous.

Re:Not a good effort.

[soccerisgod]

They didn't just catch three people in this operation, but they took down several servers, some of which the operators might not have realized were even being used for warez distribution.

People who have several TB going through their line every day and don't even notice it get everything they deserve ;)

Re:Not a good effort.

[gilgongo]

Noam Chomsky also pointed out that if you do something subversive and don't get punished, you aren't being subversive enough. Punishment (or at least an attempt at punishment) is the litmus test of effective protest because it means your message has been heard.

Re:Not a good effort.

[MattyCobb]

Can you produce a quote from any of them saying that civil disobedience doesn't count if you don't get punished? Sorry but the idea is just stupid. Heh, I would not go so far to say that I exercise civil disobedience, but rather my right as the member of a capitalist society; the ability to support good products and not utter crap.

Re:Not a good effort.

[nucrash]

For over a decade now the software industry has always put out figures that say they lost X millions of dollars due to piracy, but they do that by counting every pirated copy as a lost sale, which is of course complete fiction.

And to think, there's probably rapists, murderers etc... Who would maybe have been caught had the resources for this been diverted to real crimes instead of pissant cracking groups. So nice to see that the streets are now safe from some software pirates, while shits like Ken Lay and weasels from the likes of Enron and other completely corrupt boards who defraud tens of thousands of people continue to go free. Nice to see the priorities are right here...

Funny how the same logic is used by both parties yet still remains equally invalid. Some sales could have been made if the pirated copies were not available, and some violent criminals may have been jailed instead of some high end pirate.
Then again, lawyers would probably suck any profit or gain out of both scenarios.

Yes, Piracy is bad. Yes, money is lost. But then again, why does hollywood bother to make such a big deal out of lost money, if they continue to shove shows down our throat about the lush lives of celebrities. They don't look to be hurting. The movie execs sure seem to have quite a bit of money to play around with. Why don't they spare some out of their pocket to pay for the set workers instead of spending it on a comercial to educate the general populous as to where a very minute percentage of the money could go.

Sure pirates drain cashflow from the system. Too bad that system has already been sucked dry by the studio heads and their legal army of pirate hunting lawyers.

Re:Not a good effort.

[grazzy]

look, this story is about the REAL dal, not some "kid" running a "warez-server", these scenesites are _atleast_ 100mbit, often more or on unused connections, couriers at these levels get irritated if they cant have transferrates at atleast a couple of megabytes per second.

dont tell me people with 100mbit+ connections dont notice when someone is transfering 300gb / day on their interfaces..

Re:Not a good effort.

[Igmuth]

Except the fact that public libraries tend to have movies as well.

Re:Not a good effort.

[Slack3r78]

The connection was originally 10Mb, which is why he wasn't caught. It was an upgrade to a faster, 100Mb connection that eventually *did* cause him to be noticed. Either way, he was apparently able to move a lot over the old connection before the machine was found. I might also add that he had the machine IN the University's data center, it's not like he was some kiddie running a DC++ hub from his dorm room.

Re:Not a good effort.

[grazzy]

well, "just" 10mbit grants that this wasnt an "elite" site anyway. 10mbit is nothing (in this context).

It's a pity...

[Anonymous Coward]

...that Osama bin Laden isn't part of that group. But then you'd think he was, the way the cops talk about them.

Hmm ... no Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like we'll have to invade.

Re:Hmm ... no Canada

[GrassMunk]

About time! Im tired of being allowed to download music legally.

On another note, when you attack make sure you hit the CRTC headquarters. To canadians that would be like the berlin wall coming down. OK, over the top i know but PLEASE bomb that building first.

Re:Hmm ... no Canada

[Astreja]

No, no, no! Get SOCAN first. Can't allow them the slightest hope of a successful appeal on the MP3 decision. I'm amazed they haven't gone after the second-hand CD stores yet.

Re:Hmm ... no Canada

[LoocSiMit]

The correct term is "liberate".

Price of games

[mldkfa]

As long as it costs $40 for a game or $100 for software there will always be people pirating.

Re:Price of games

[LostCluster]

As long as it costs $40 for a game or $100 for software there will always be people pirating.

People will even pirate data worth 99 cents... so long as there's a price tag, there's people who try to get around it.

Re:Price of games

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that sad? No matter the cost, people will always steal. Look at GPL'd source code: people steal it when it's _free_!

Moral of the story: people will always steal things. Their justification is almost always pure comedic gold.

Re:Price of games

[Anonymous Coward]

I used keygenned copies of Eudora and Opera for years (...student...broke...subsisting on noodles...). Then one day, when I almost kind of grew up, I started feeling a little guilty, and bought the software (...had a job...living with mom...eating better...). After all those years of illicit use, it was money very well spent, and I feel a lot better now for doing it.

Those who will always steal no-matter what are beyond help. But guys like me WILL eventually pay for it...but only once we can afford to. Or Firefox and Thunderbird will mature and then it'll be a moot point... :-)

Re:Price of games

[DragonMagic]

How about, if you don't like the pricetag, don't buy it? Companies price them at what the market will bear. If they can't make a profit, they change price or try to make the products fit the price better.

Because it's too expensive is never a good reason to pirate, not that I'm accusing you. Just in general.

Re:Price of games

[Aneurysm9]

Data is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If people don't want to pay, it's worthless.

Re:Price of games

[LostCluster]

Data is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If people don't want to pay, it's worthless.

People never want to pay for anything. People are willing to pay when they have no other choice and it's worth it to them to part with the money and have the data. The true value of something requires both a buyer and seller to exist at that price. When there's a gap between buyer and seller, then the transaction doesn't happen until either the seller lowers their price or the buyer raises theirs.

In order for anything to be worth something, there has to be the absense of that thing if it's not paid for. If all software could be had for free, then no software would be worth anything.

Re:Price of games

[Anders]

>> As long as it costs $40 for a game or $100 for software there will always be people pirating.

> People will even pirate data worth 99 cents...

Furthermore, people will pirate if it is priced at $0.00, see for example some GPL violations.

(Testing the maximum nesting depth of the "+5 Insightful for naming any price" phenomenon)

Re:Price of games

[arkhan_jg]

People never want to pay for anything. People are willing to pay when they have no other choice ... if all software could be had for free, then no software would be worth anything.

This is patently untrue. By that rationale, people would never buy:
- bottled water
- packaged software
- 99c tracks off itunes.

After all, all those things are available for free, right? And why would anybody buy an armani suit, when they can get one that looks virtually identical for a tenth of the price?

People will buy when:
- the price is within their means
- they consider the price fair for the good
- they want the good
- the inconvenience of buying the good from the vendor is not too high (i.e. DRM. Personally, any DRM is too high for me, but I recognise that's not universally true)

Case in point. I used to buy a lot of major label music CD's. Now the price is 50% greater than it used to be (~16 retail), now that the style of music I listen to is not to be found very often, now they put DRM on CD's to restrict my use of said CD's (won't play in my car, for example) - combine that with my ethical distaste at said labels current actions, and I have a bonafide reason not to buy their music.

However, I did recently order from CDBaby half a dozen new CD's. The first music I've bought for myself this year. Even though it was inconvenient (getting through customs), even though I had half of them already from legal free samples. Because having a physical CD I could do a high quality rip from was worth the price. Especially given they were half the price of a major label CD. That, and I felt the artists deserved the money.

Acts of skilled creation are scarce, and thus valuable. Making digital copies of said creation is not a scarce act, and no amount of legislation, enforcement or legal tactics will make it otherwise.

As long as people want what scarce (in a technical sense) decent material that's available, then a way will be found to finance those who create. It just may not involve copyright in its current form.

And if you think I'm talking complete crap - well, the guys at the baen free library have demonstrated that giving stuff away increases sales - even of the material they're giving away!

Re:Price of games

[The Vulture]

Minor nit.

Even though the GPL'd code is free ("as in beer"), the reason it's "pirated" is to save a company their own R&D costs, or licensing fees (or something else), which are not free.

So, that GPL'd code could be priced at/worth thousands of dollars (to that company).

-- Joe

Re:Price of games

[The Vulture]

You're right, the GPL is not necessarily free (from what you say, I believe you're talking about the "free as in beer" argument, not the "free as in speech" argument).

If a company wishes to use GPL'd code, they should definitely consult with a lawyer to make sure that they meet all of the obligations.

However, the cost of consulting a lawyer might very well be less than the R&D cost of re-inventing that GPL'd code, in that case, the company can make some money off of it.

If the company doesn't meet the obligations of the GPL, then they deserve the bad press that they get. If you're using somebody elses' code, then you have to abide by their restrictions, just as I cannot legally install one copy of Windows on multiple computers (because the license agreement does not permit me).

-- Joe

Re:Price of games

[clonedrone]

People will even pirate data worth 99 cents... so long as there's a price tag, there's people who try to get around it.

That just so nottrue. I'll buy (and have bought) 1 game every month. I don't buy more than 1 game because i just can't afford it. If the game companies reduced their prices with atleast 50% then i would have bought 3 games per month - which means that they will make more money by reducing their prices. (yes, my budget isn't high enough for 2 games per month )
</rant>
I know i don't talk for my self only, but also for many of my friends.

Re:Price of games

[Lord_Dweomer]

Actually, one could argue that people buying things like bottled water are paying for the convenience of being able to carry the closeable bottle around.

Re:Price of games

[cheekyboy]

A game in usa, $29.95, same game in australia $98.95

Currency difference? $1AU = $0.73US

Logically, minus store profit, back to wholesale ($20, then export costs $2 per cd, add local AU profit/tax final should be $29US too, and therefore about $38. Hell, its probably packaged in china so its close to Australia any way. And with FTA no import taxes now.

So tell me who the REAL THEIFS are here.

Re:Price of games

[pod]

GPL software does too have a cost to companies wanting to modify it (the primary route to GPL violations). If you use GPL software, make changes to it, and distribute the result, you need to make the source available, and that usually has at least SOME value to companies.

Re:Price of games

[arkhan_jg]

Nod, convenience of the packaging (which applies to itunes too - no having to schlep down the shops) is a purchasing factor;

But it's more usually a factor of which product to buy, rather than whether to buy it at all, which is why I left it out of the list in the end. Don't know about the states, but I pay for mains water supply here - it's just a lot cheaper than buying those huge bottles...

Re:Price of games

[arkhan_jg]

And YOU didn't read the comment I replied to.

THAT person stated that software available for free would always be worth nothing - I'm pointing out that many people will pay for products even when they are available for free elsewhere, for various reasons.

I wish...

[bo0ork]

...they put all that effort into hunting criminals that actually hurt people (as opposed to wallets).

Re:I wish...

[Homology]

...they put all that effort into hunting criminals that actually hurt people (as opposed to wallets).

Try tell that to the Enron employees that lost their pensions. I'm quite sure they would like to see white collar criminals spend some time in jail.

Re:I wish...

[LostCluster]

...they put all that effort into hunting criminals that actually hurt people (as opposed to wallets).

The "real terrorists" need to be getting their money somehow. Wherever there's an illegal way to make money quickly, you can be pretty sure supporters of the terrorists will use it to make money to fund their destructive operations.

Re:I wish...

[JaredOfEuropa]

I wish... they put all that effort into hunting criminals that actually hurt people (as opposed to wallets).

Rest assured that they are: the police of various countries often work together to track down terrorists and murderers. You should also realise that a lawful society depends on all laws being enforced. Things would turn into a right mess if the police would stop going after petty crime, traffic violations and fraud cases, until they had solved all murder cases.

Re:I wish...

[HolyCoitus]

And, those are select few wallets. Only the wallets that go the deepest will be heard. So, in reality, if you are hurt financially and it's not by one of those big wallets in a way that is malicious, you won't have a single damn thing done about it. Look at identity theft and how huge of a hole that is. Recent Slashdot article about a 19 year old kid being accused of being a middle easterner because of his SSN. Nothing will be done about it. If I stole Bill Gate's SSN as a terrorist, I guarantee someone would listen to him. //rant

On a more positive note, at least the FBI hasn't decided to raid random homes on the assumption that there may be something illegal going on inside. Or the neighbors made a single report about them doing something illegal along the lines of file sharing. When that happens, we know we're fucked. Please, no one link to an article showing that being done. Please.

Re:I wish...

[Rikus]

Yes! Get the real criminals!

Some real criminals _do_ hurt "wallets"-- they steal your money. "Pirates" do not hurt wallets, they simply discourage some people from paying for something that could be made available free of charge. Yes, that's a crime, but even if you don't agree with what they're doing, it seems like it would be obvious that they are nowhere near as harmful as some other people.

Why not go after those sea pirates, engaging in actual pirate activity?

Re:I wish...

[LostCluster]

Things would turn into a right mess if the police would stop going after petty crime, traffic violations and fraud cases, until they had solved all murder cases.

A big problem with our justice system when it confronts these kinds of terrorists is that there was nothing left to prosecute on the 19 people most directly responsible on September 11th, 2001.

We need to be enforcing trivial violations because if we deported everyone who overstays their visa's expiration date, we would have deported enough hijackers to have caused problems with the plan.

We can't arrest somebody for being a suicide terrorist after they've comitted their terrorist act. The gut-reaction is to try to create a "department of precrime" that stomps on rights, but that's not the correct solution either. The solution is to enforce all of the laws we had on the books already, because it's mighty hard to comitt a terrorist act without having broken other laws on the way there...

Re:I wish...

[LostCluster]

This group was part of the commerical piracy market if the alligations are correct. They were reportedly charging for access to their compromised servers for leeching users.

Re:I wish...

[the unbeliever]

Why not go after those sea pirates, engaging in actual pirate activity?

Two words for you: International Waters

Re:I wish...

[maximilln]

I agree but we can clearly see that it's easier to get good media ratings out of busting a few computer programmers than trying to set up against the politically well connected CEOs.

Re:I wish...

[D'Sphitz]

I wish ...they put all that effort into hunting criminals that actually hurt people (as opposed to wallets).

Yeah because every law enforcement agent in the world dropped what they were doing to participate in this investigation, right? I can't imagine how many violent crimes went unpunished because of this, it's a real shame.

Re:I wish...

[maximilln]

-----
depends on all laws being enforced
-----
Ignoring the possibility that laws can be skewed in favor of special interests...

Re:I wish...

[maximilln]

-----
The solution is to enforce all of the laws we had on the books already
-----
And we need to add more laws. Thousands more laws each year. We should have a special group in Congress which has fast track status to enact any law that could potentially be a Good Idea. All Good Ideas should become law. All bad ideas should be changed into Good Ideas.

Then, when we have laws which address everything from clothing and how you comb your hair up to quality controls on your car and which software is acceptable to use on your home PC... only then might the statistical reality of selective enforcement and abuse become apparent to the world.

Piracy is illegal for FairLight but if Microsoft wants a piece of code for their own they'll just take it and let the lawyers deal with the rest.

Re:I wish...

[danila]

a lawful society depends on all laws being enforced
I suggest you read up on Dutch and American approaches to enforcing drug-related laws. Zero-tolerance policies appear to work... not.

P.S. Piracy has a net positive effect on economy. It's just that the members of MPAA/RIAA/BSA are large campaign contributors in the US and they force the government to pass draconian laws and force adoption of such laws worldwide.

Re:I wish...

[Erwos]

"P.S. Piracy has a net positive effect on economy."

I'm pretty much done with my degree in economics, so could you enlighten me with some proof on how that statement is true? Because I've sure never seen any indication that it is.

-Erwos

Re:I wish...

[Lord_Dweomer]

Right, because I'm sure every person in the organizations responsible for handling this are trained to "hunt" criminals that hurt people. You need to realize there are different branches of law enforcement, different specialties, and most importantly, a limited number of people who are qualified to handle that sort of thing.

Re:I wish...

[danila]

Since you are majoring in economics, I will keep it brief. The difference between piracy and not piracy is my refusal to transfer money to the developer, so the only difference is who consumes more, total amount of value/consumption/etc. doesn't change. Value is not created by selling software, it is created by using it. So from economy/society point of view it is beneficial if as many people as possible use software (music/films/books), it is irrelevant who keeps the money.

I gave a more detailed explanation (together with 3 mail alternatives and their basic economics analisys) here.

Of course, the statement (like any other rule in economics) is not always true, but in some specific circumstances. First it's worth noting that developers, publishers and BSA-like organisations would be clearly against piracy and it is well explained by the theory of positive net effect. Second, it clearly ignores the fact that at certain levels piracy decreases motivation to create new works and decreases possibilities for new consumption. To solve this we just need to look at marginal effects of both factors - the positive effect of wider consumption and negative effect of lower production. It is intuitively obvious that the effect (positive) of piracy will increase till some point and that would be the optimal point. I believe we still have not reached it, so more piracy is welcome. It is also very clear that those people who are unwilling to pay for the product should be allowed to use it for free. Of course, there are many practical problems with determining who would and who wouldn't pay, but from theoretical standpoint it is quite clear.

Re:I wish...

[jez9999]

Consider people who always want to try software before they buy it. Also, consider companies who think their software is so wonderful that users shouldn't be allowed a trial period. Piracy allows such people (like me) to try software, and if they like it, buy it. That's extra sales for short-sighted companies.

Re:I wish...

[danila]

I wonder why people who are keen on arguing don't spend just a few minutes thinking over their arguments. The difference between your chair example and the piracy example is that with chairs the value is the same, no matter what combination you try, but with software (something copyable) there are two good combinations (piracy or buying) and one bad (not using it at all). The number of chairs is limited, so if I do not buy it, generally there will be someone else to sit in them. The number of MS Office copies, on the other hand, is unlimited, so me using or not using it has no effect on others. Thus with immaterial goods it is a good economic strategy to maximise consumption.

In regards to Toyota, you should pay attention to the end of my previous post. As long as someone pays for development it is in our best interest to share the results as widely as possible, but someone needs to pay for it. It would be best for the economy if auto manufacturers could recoup their R&D costs on their first models and then offer these features cheaply, for the cost of manufacturing... Wait, I think this is exactly what they do - something that was a luxurious option in 1990 is included in the cheapest 2004 model by default. As for material composition, if you want pedantry, one can argue that everyone should pay for the cost of human labour, but that would be an oversimplification today. But in any case, one pays only what one is ready to pay, and as long as one is not forcing others to do anything, everything should be ok.

11 Countries?

[bedurndurn]

So they conducted raids in 11 countries and nabbed three key people? Must be one hell of a bad day to be a lackey. :)

Re:11 Countries?

[LostCluster]

There may just be three people involved in the backbone of this network, yet they could still have been sucessful enough hackers to have rooted machines located in 11 countries which they were using as their backbone. (Nobody would be dumb enough to host warez on a server they were paying for...)

Re:11 Countries?

[lambent]

Unless you'd expect that they wouldn't believe it ... the old double bluff.

"It's so crazy, it just might work ..."

I swear this reminds me of the Animaniacs...

[kevx45]

Remember the Animaniacs Country Song?

Raids were carried out in the UK, the U.S., Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, the Netherlands, Singapore and Sweden.

Add intelligence/investigative services of each country, we have a new song!

Ughhh... I need sleep.

Copying games is worse than rape

[Anonymous Coward]

Average time in prison for rape: 3 years
Average time for copying games without selling: 4 years

Does anyone else see something wrong here?

melissa

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[josh3736]

Does anyone else see something wrong here?

Yep. More and more in this country, punishment for what in all actuality are petty crimes is greater than that of serious crimes such as rape, theft (the real kind of theft where you actually take property from someone else), and murder/manslaughter. It is made even worse when new laws are passed that make it illegal to do what was already illegal anyways. Case in point: DMCA. It was already illegal to copy the new Britany Spears CD and sell it on street corners, but now it is *more* illegal becuase you bypassed that copy protection just to do it.

Since everyone in this country is becoming a criminal, my advice to all of you is don't drop the soap.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[Anonymous Coward]

Since at least one of your statistics is in disagreement with information available at the Department of Justice website, I'm curious to know where these numbers come from.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[bryanp]

Average time in prison for rape: 3 years
Average time for copying games without selling: 4 years Does anyone else see something wrong here?

If it's true, yes. Where did you get the statistic?

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[JamesKPolk]

Yes, we need more captial punishment.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[IthnkImParanoid]

Rape victims don't donate to political campaigns.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[dirk]

Yes, I see something wrong (if this is true), but it's not with the punishment for copying software. People often use these type of statistics to say that the punshment for copyright violation is too harsh, but what they really show is the punishment for rape is too low, which really has nothing to do with the conversation.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[Wordsmith]

THe greater crime, of course, is spreading Britney's music. With or without permission.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just anecdotal, but I remember specificially reading in the Hartford Courant about 10 years ago of two people who went to jail at about the same time. One for posession of a small amount of cocaine, the other for rape. They both received the same sentence, 18 months.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[Hatta]

Luckily enough for all of us, those raped in jail deserve it. Its not supposed to be a nice place to be. There is supposed to be a deterrence factor to jail as much as there is supposed to be a rehabilitation factor.

Sounds like someone needs to go and reread the Eighth Amendment. Troll.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[discogravy]

the scientific method at it's finest. I find it unlikely that on average rapists get 65 years.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[black mariah]

Slight correction to the grandparent. Average time served is 65 MONTHS. A little over five years.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/1996/m-rape.h tm

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[PD]

Goddamn, the article you get from that search says 65 MONTHS for rape.

The link

The quote:

The average sentence for criminals convicted of rape in the United States (and released in 1992) is 117 months. The average time served is 65 months, which equates to 56 percent of the actual sentence served. For crimes of sexual assault, the average sentence is 72 months, and the average time served is 35 months, equating to 49 percent of time served. (Greenfeld, Lawrence A., 1995, "Prison Sentences and Time Served for Violence," page 1, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.)

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[ray-auch]

Given average life expectancy is about 80 years, this would mean average age of conviction around 15yrs. Clearly bullshit.

Checking the document clearly shows it is 65 months.

And the average % of that sentence actually served is 50% or so - so that is about 3yrs. Funnily enough pretty close to post you criticise...

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[black mariah]

The Eighth Amendment pertains to sentences handed down by judges, not ass-poundings from a big black guy named Ben.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[bryanp]

And the average % of that sentence actually served is 50% or so - so that is about 3yrs. Funnily enough pretty close to post you criticise...

65 months is the average actually SERVED, 117 months being the average time sentenced. 65 months = 5 years, 5 months, not 3 years.

Three months or five, either is too short. Rapists need to serve a very short sentence - about as long as it takes to stand them up in front of a firing squad.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[ray-auch]

Touche.

Damn - skim read document, skip preview, so quick you get it wrong, and still there are multiple people getting the point in before you...

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[stfvon007]

Its 65 MONTHS not 65 years. (a little under 5 1/2 years)

This is the government document being reffered to:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/psatsfv.pdf

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[Concerned Onlooker]

punishment for what in all actuality are petty crimes is greater than that of serious crimes such as rape, theft (the real kind of theft where you actually take property from someone else), and murder/manslaughter.

It seems pretty clear to me that in the eye of the corporation the view is in actuality reversed. Since the real danger to them is someone standing in their way of making a profit then lobbying for really tough sentencing for copying software is what they're after. A corporation's interest is the bottom line, and probably most often these crimes which the rest of us take as serious are not much of a concern to a corporation. Unless, of course, they are causing some public relations problems for said corporation. Or happen to be occuring in executive's neighborhoods.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[King_TJ]

Precisely, AND many times, things that should be criminal go completely unpunished too.

I just got a close-up, personal look at this when my wife decided to leave me. She broke into my house (with the aid of friends), and literally cleaned the whole place out. They used a U-Haul (paid for with money from one of my credit cards, via a cash-advance check), and did it while I was at work.

Of course, when I got home and found a broken window and doors wide open, I called the police. But as soon as they determined my wife was behind it, they backed off, refusing to so much as write up a report. In their eyes, "It's half hers, so there's no way she can be stealing it from you." Last I checked, marriage meant things were EQUAL property, 50/50. Why can I legally be denied my 50% of everything and the law defends her, yet I'm told if I set foot on her property, it's "trespassing" and I'll be arrested?

All I hear is "it'll get resolved in the courts". Yeah, maybe in a year from now or so ... but I'm expected to sit around in my empty house, with collectors down my throats about repaying maxxed out credit cards, in the meantime? But oh yeah... pirate a few games, and the FBI is all over it. Justice? I think not.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[maximilln]

I empathize.

The argument from the corporate sympathizers specific to you would be,"You should've paid movers to move all of her stuff out and then she wouldn't have had to break in."

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[blackmonday]

There is no copy protection on 99.99% of CD's. so this is not exactly true. Now, replace "CD" with "DVD" and you have a better point.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[bryanp]

Gee, I've never made a mistake like that before. ^_^

No big deal.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[pantycrickets]

After reading that post, I kinda wish that you got raped in the ass while you had a short stay in prison. Maybe you would think twice before making such a stupid comment such as, "those raped in jail deserve it."

So if I steal some game, I should be raped in the ass. I see how the punishment fits the crime.

And then you have to take into consideration how many people in prison have aids, your chances of getting it against your will, etc. So, I'm sure in some cases people are essentially sentenced to death for things like shoplifting, traffic accidents, etc. It's a screwed up system, but no one cares until they end up there themselves, by that point it's too late to make a difference.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[1ucius]

Actually, the DMCA does not make it illegal to bypass copy protection. It only makes it illgal to sell a 'black box' that bypasses copy protection.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[bonch]

And Adobe does?

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[jez9999]

You wanna neuter someone, you better be *DAMN* sure they actually committed the crime, and that it wasn't some bitch making a feel-good accusation.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[HuguesT]

It sucks now, but I think you'll get your day in court. There is no way any family judge will condone this sort of behaviour. Get a lawyer ASAP.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[HuguesT]

Seriously, if death was the sentence for rape, you wouldn't see such a big decline in sexual assault, but you would see a spike in murders.

If the punishment for murder and rape is the same, then most likely the victims of rape would get killed as well. This would give the offender a better chance not to get caught.

I don't think it would be much of an improvement.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[HuguesT]

Not to mention that there are a lot of innocent people behind bars. So you could be handed down a sentence of slow death by illness for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Great.

It could happen to you.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[nursedave]

I don't think this is true, although it is certainly logical. I think you are thinking of what a reasonable person would do - you, me, whomever. If I raped someone and knew I would be fried extra crispy, I might as well kill her, right? Seems not to be the case, though.

A friend of mine is an FBI agent. He attended a class once held by a profiler who specializes in sexual crimes, and who has spent hours interviewing nutball rapists. Turns out, when someone goes to commit a sexual offence, they almost always have in mind the amount of violence they want to commit. And it usually escalates (but not always). So, Mr. I.B. Rapist wants to rape and has decided that whether she fights or not, he's going to smack her around a bit, or give her a good beating, or kill her. If he is only wanting to smack her around a bit, and she fights him tooth and nail, he'll run off like the chicken-shit, maladjusted no balls having ass that he is. If she just freezes and lies back and complies, like so many of the very misguided anti-rape groups say (they say, "Do what it takes to survive" - but they don't recommend women arm themselves in any way... Idiots.), he still smacks her around a bit.

Bottom line, guys, arm the women in your life. Give them a fighting chance. Then, I suggest you start putting the toilet seat down. A sleepy woman with a gun and a wet ass can be more dangerous than a wounded bear.

Re:Copying games is worse than rape

[HuguesT]

I'm a bit worried about the weaponry aspect of your reply, I think self-defence courses should be a pretty good start and would also work in countries and states that don't allow people to bear arms as a matter of course.

Otherwise thanks for the insight.

strange

[awing0]

...and a foreign permanent resident who is said to have been purchasing cracked software from Fairlight since 2001.

As far as I know, these releasing groups do not charge for their releases, they make them available free over FTP/IRC/USENET.

Re:strange

[kryptkpr]

A friend that's close to the scene tells me that for the past while FLT had been selling leech accounts on their private dumps. He quoted $800 usd for leech on a 7tb server with a 1gbit connection.

I guess they sold to the wrong person, and they got busted..

Re:strange

[JaredOfEuropa]

As far as I know, these releasing groups do not charge for their releases

That doesn't make it any better, morally or legally.

Re:strange

[awing0]

Yeah, I've got a "friend" close to the scene too, but I never thought it was cash, it was usually bandwidth or desirable hardware that got you preferred access. (Guess it's just as well as cash anyway.)

Re:strange

[LostCluster]

They likely took cash from those who wanted to buy their way into the club.

By keeping the backbone network where the compromised versions were first being released closed to the public, and only letting a trusted few have access to it, it makes it harder for the law to figure out what is going on. When the cracks eventually get released to the public, they might be able to trace it back to the person who posted the first published copy, who would only be able to lead back to a "friend-of-a-friend" chain that's hard for the cops to figure out.

One program cracked cases often head over to the cold case bin, while the people who are cracking programs for a living are insulated several layers away from the investigation. For once the cops finally got close enough to find the hub it seems, but they likely were getting away with it for a pretty long time before being found.

Re:strange

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it does make a difference.

Since you are not part of the so called scene I
will explain it to you. These people do it for
the adrealine rush of

1. cracking great protection
Ha, this company payed $5,000 for newest
protection (usb dongles, securom, safedisk,
cdzilla) and it was a 5 minute to crack

2. library archivers
Ha, I have 5000 cds of games archived since
begging of the scene in the very early 1980s
note: MP3 pirates trade more new songs a day
than there is minutes to listen
them all. ( http://mp3hq.net/ )

3. racing thrill
Ha, . When did you download Doom5? I
had it 5 hours ago ( so called 0seconds warez )

Now, you will say that majority does this to
get things for free, majority? maybe, but they
are not part of the scene, they dont know the
scene, they dont feel it.

Majority of downloaders sit on p2p, be it
bittorrent or ed2k network or dc++.

You see, the people in the scene make no profit,
generally they rarely even use the things they
pirate (they dont have time to play games, or
watch movies, as the next thing is coming out
within next hour as listed by http://nforce.nl/ )

p2p users make no profit, but they avoid costs
to play newest game, they avoid paying but get
the benefits.

and then you have got the BAD BAD type of a
whore to sells warez, the type that actually
makes a profit.

Lets do now a karma evaluation:
1. scene member
does not sell -> makes no profit
does not use -> no loss of sale
2. p2p / leecher
does not sell -> makes no profit
but does use -> potential loss of sale
3. warez seller
sells, makes profit, by DIRECTLY taking money
away from the developer

And you have a face to say that it is not better
neither morally nor legally if one does not use
and does not make a profit? I fail to see your
logic.

Prediction

[williamstephens007]

I bet that most were users of the Linux operating systems and "anti" Microsoft people. Typical criminal profile.

Re:Prediction

[kobotronic]

Great work, detective! The boys down in the crime lab will take it from here.

Re:Prediction

[westlake]

I bet that most were users of the Linux operating systems and "anti" Microsoft people. Typical criminal profile.

This is the stereotyped image the public has of Linux. The home of the pirate, the cracker, the hacker. You think Microsoft is distrusted? Get up off your butt and take a look outside.

Re:Prediction

[HermanAB]

Well, of course it is the deeds of Linux Hackers - who else would want to run Microsoft software?

CD copiers

[king_penguin_05]

I think we all know, however, that what they have seized is the equivalant of several thousand cd copiers.

Re:CD copiers

[IthnkImParanoid]

Actually, they only seized four copiers, but they were 24x.

Re:CD copiers

[bruthasj]

I still haven't figured out if they are just black and white or are they color. Can anyone help find out?

This is a joke or a major failure imho.

[CaptIronfist]

Consider the costs of pulling an international operation like this compared to the amount of funds gaming companies will be able to recover if and only if the warez market really slows down. Do you still think it was a good and/or a necessary effort? I don't. I think the operation is a total failure if only 3 people get arrested, and a couple of comps and burners get seized.

I see some tax dollars getting wasted on ridiculous crusades.

Re:This is a joke or a major failure imho.

[cammoblammo]

I see some tax dollars getting wasted on ridiculous crusades.

Just think what would happen if those dollars were spent on developing software worth copying.

Better make sure they include the sources...

Re:This is a joke or a major failure imho.

[syukton]

the amount of funds gaming companies will be able to recover

What makes you think they'll recover anything? Did it ever occur to you (or them) that the reason people pirate software is because they can't afford to buy it? Stopping piracy doesn't mean that people will start to buy software, stopping piracy just means you'll have fewer people out there using the software in general. period.

Now I don't know about you, but there have been a few times when, after playing a warezed copy of a game, I went out and bought it, or the expansion pack, or the sequel. That won't happen anymore if piracy comes to an end--even further hurting the profit margins of the game companies, contrary to their beliefs.

But come on, surely you see the solution: freeware open source games that don't suck. If the game companies don't like piracy because it hurts their bottom line, how about we flood the market with games that cost nothing? If suddenly everyone is playing free games instead of expensive ones, the game "industry" will get what they want: no more piracy--because nobody will any longer be interested in circumventing their bullshit policies of charging an arm and a leg for something that's only worth a fingertip, as they can have better games for free, legally.

Won't the game companies be happy once free gaming takes off and piracy of their products drops to zero? No, because they want things THEIR WAY and they want THEIR INDUSTRY TO SURVIVE FOREVER so that they can make an infinite amount of MONEY. It's all about greed. They don't want to stop piracy because people are breaking the law, or because people are being unfair; no, they want to stop piracy because they feel it's affecting their bottom line.

But the thing they don't realise is that they're hurting more than helping. If there were ever a major gaming company (say Blizzard, Id, Activision, EA, etc) named in the news stories about the raids on pirates, that company would become the black sheep as far as a lot of gamers are concerned--even FURTHER hurting that precious bottom line.

Tangentially; people have the ultimate control over the powers that they perceive to control them, because it is the individual person--and not those perceived controllers--who reigns supreme over their own wallet. Want to make a statement? Make it where it counts: the bottom line.

Re:This is a joke or a major failure imho.

[cheekyboy]

The cheapest way to stop them , is to 'leak' it to the group that they are being spied upon and might be busted any day now, then they will laylower then ever or totally stop.

It would save the costs of arrest/seisure/courts.

Re:This is a joke or a major failure imho.

[CaptIronfist]

I don't think they'll recover more than 10k USD worth in material sold on e-bay. IOW that was the hole point of my comment. The cost of the operation compared to the effects obtained is huge. Even if you include the "we enforce the law" media effect, this operation is still a major failure.

I have a solution to your free games problem, however it won't be free as in speech, just free as in beer. Make all game clients opened and freely available. Keep all servers closed, charge monthly for online gaming. This way you get the necessary funds for maintenance and bandwith and could perhaps pay for 1-2 sysadmins, a couple devs, couple artists. You don't really have to be big to make games.

The problem with making a free game is the time you need to spend in order to conceive it. I don't know about you, but my small developer salary and very low employement security cannot garanty the steady and somewhat fast developement of a good free game. Add that you cannot compensate this effect by sarying: "we'll put our millions and millions of OSS devs on it", simply because 2 heads isn't necessarily better than 1 when programming / designing. So IMHO you really need to make some cash somewhere in order to justify developement, otherwise you just end up like Loki. By making some cash, you can also devote all your time on making games, which couldn't be true if you were working for some company and developing the game as a side project.

Re:This is a joke or a major failure imho.

[syukton]

You need cash, OR dedication. You don't have the time for it, I don't have the time for it, but eventually the requisite time, willpower, and know-how will come together for one person or a small team of people who will produce something great.

Remember the demoscene? Although no epic games arose from the demoscene (pun intended; Epic Megagames got many musicians from the demoscene), the demo compositions themselves speak volumes about what a few coders, musicians, and artists can accomplish if they put their minds to it. Check out Omniscent by Sanction for an example of what a good group of people can do. (It's an enemy-less flythrough of the first level of Descent in 4k. With MIDI soundtrack.) It's not a well-known example, but it is one that definitely speaks about the skill of a good coder.

Game Piracy Traffic

[Roman Levin]

It's only a matter of time until someone does a "War on Piracy" version of Traffic. Tobey Maguire as a head of a piracy cartel?

Re:Game Piracy Traffic

[fuctape]

Hopefully they'd include the scene on the plane where the czar opens the floor for new ideas and no one can come up with anything.

It's not a losing battle, it's a lost battle. Data havens will only make things worse.

Re:Game Piracy Traffic

[epiphanius]

A few years ago JC Van Damme was in one of the worst movies in history, and it was about copyright infringement. It was called "Knockoff"...

War on IP Terrorism

[dotslashdot]

Ashcroft announces War on IP Terrorism--Bush invades Antartica to in a preemptive strike to stop the infiltration of underwater penguin operatives bent on creating a network of secure operations.

Pirating

[jacobhoupt]

I refuse to believe that pirating will ever be "eradicated" or even slowed down. As long as there are 'haves' and 'have-nots' there will always be people who will hack their way up in the world. If Chippendale or J & G Stickley were alive today, they'd point out the fashion in which they are imitated or flat copied in furniture design. Everything has someone copying it, right down to designer shoes and haircuts.

I believe the spirit of piracy, be it software or music or the high-seas, is a definite part of the human nature which cannot be removed. When someone is cooller or has something you want, you always find a way to get it. Lawn fertilizer, high-end cars, stylish clothing...you find a way if you are human and put those things on the top of your list of important bullshit.

Drake would copy DVDs if he were here today...and wasn't he knighted or some bullshit?

Re:Jeez

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't they just grow up and catch some real criminals.

Real criminals fight back. I hope you're not suggesting that our brave officers of the law should put themselves at risk like that. If they all get killed chasing terrorists then who would that leave to protect us from the warez kiddies?

Another war is needed

[Anonymous Coward]

What we need is a "War on Piracy!" The more endless wars to distract us from reality, the better, I always say.

MOD UP.

[ShadowRage]

he has a decent point.
the fact things are overpriced will lead to pirating, because the pirates will either be able to offer it for free, or for a lower cost.
pirates are competition for the companies they pirate from, illegal, yes, but competition nonetheless.

and companies also would like something like this done to legal competitors as well, kinda sad. but still, the parent has a good point.

Re:MOD UP.

[tomstdenis]

Not only was the parent [grandparent in my case] redundant but it's not a good point.

It takes time and effort to make a decent program/game/util/etc. 40$ for a multimedia rich game [like UT2k4] is certainly not asking too much.

And quite frankly, if you can't afford a game or don't agree with the price don't buy it. Where the "it costs money so it's ok to steal" logic comes from I'll never fully understand...

Tom

Re:MOD UP.

[Moridineas]

he has a decent point.

No he doesn't, you just need some basic economics and legal knowledge (common sense wouldn't hurt too, but let's not ask too much).

the fact things are overpriced will lead to pirating, because the pirates will either be able to offer it for free, or for a lower cost.

There is no correlation between pricing and piracy, and I challenge you to find any evidence to the contrary. And thanks for your insight that thieves can offer things they steal for cheaper than a companies that invests a large amount of money into a game--brilliant!

pirates are competition for the companies they pirate from, illegal, yes, but competition nonetheless.

Wow, another amazing insight. Being stolen from is not competition, that's a complete perversion of economics.

and companies also would like something like this done to legal competitors as well, kinda sad. but still, the parent has a good point.

Is this anything other than typical anti-corporate babbling?

Re:MOD UP.

[mcc]

There is no correlation between pricing and piracy, and I challenge you to find any evidence to the contrary.

Silly statement. Go look on any warez site, anywhere. What are you going to find? Adobe photoshop. Adobe photoshop. Maya, some video editing packages, Adobe photoshop...

Does this say high prices cause piracy? Of course not, not directly anyway (an alternate explanation is that higher priced software packages are more likely to be pirated not because they are higher priced, but becuase they are better software). But it's certainly a correlation.

Re:MOD UP.

[Ghostx13]

Saying that their is NO correlation is pure stupidity. Want to know why? Simple. I know quite a few graphical art students that have pirated Photoshop simply because they couldn't afford it. Did they want to buy it? Yes, it's their tool of choice. Could they afford it? No, their art students. Same with a friend of mine that is a tv production major. He has a copy of After Effects that he uses all the time. Does he want a legit copy? Absolutly. Can he afford it. No way.

Grand-parent may or may not have had a good post, but yours was pretty inane.

Re:MOD UP.

[shepd]

If you can find me a single piece of popular software that isn't heavily pirated, I'll believe you.

The correlation between popularity and piracy is so strikingly glaring, I don't understand why people don't come to the obvious conclusion:

Piracy fuels sales. Nothing is more obvious than that then watching kids at a LAN party. The ones with money are buying what they see their friends playing. And a lot of their friends are playing pirated copies.

You can be assured, if people were to follow your logic, free (as in GPL/freeware/BSD, whatever) games would be the most popular. Because, nothing is more boring than finding out your friend doesn't have a copy of the game to play against you with, and can't/refuses to get one. And boredom = no sales.

Re:MOD UP.

[Anonymous Coward]

Being stolen from is not competition, that's a complete perversion of economics.

It's not a perversion of economics, how can economics be perveted? That's like saying the black market is a perversion of economics. Its also like saying a humming bird is a perversion of physics.

If the cost of stealing something is less than the cost of buying then it is economical to steal it. The cost of stealing is of course chance of being caught and penalty of being caught. Also of course amount of effort. If it takes 8 hours to pull off the theft of something worth $50 then you might as well just work for a day and buy it.

However, when things are so expensive you can't possibly buy it economics says your only option is to steal it. It's like drugs. Sure they are illegal but if you can make enough money doing it someone will do it.

Also you slyly equate conomics with "competition". But isn't monopoly capitalism a natural end point of free market economics? Yes. So really if anything is a "perversion" of economics it would be anti-trust laws...

Re:MOD UP.

[Naffer]

Mod my parent up too.
I took an animation class in high school that was taught with Adobe After Effects. After the class I decided that I enjoyed doing it, and went online to see how much a lisence cost. $700! (400 for the educational version). Needless to say I didn't buy a copy. It would have been very easy to download one instead.
Photoshop is $300 for a student version, and quite honestly, most regular users can't justify the cost. I'm not saying that the software isn't worth the cost, I'm just saying that for people outside of the targeted markets the cost is too high to justify.

Re:MOD UP.

[tomstdenis]

No. I'm sure if WinXP didn't have annoying license issues [e.g. requires a valid key you have to activate] people wouldn't really buy WinXP. I recall shops where a single key would be used to install dozens of copies of Win95/98. And it isn't as if WinXP is that much more spectacular than Win98SE for the vast majority of PC users.

Even if piracy drives sales that's why they make demos. Share the demos with your buddies [or ask developers to make more interesting demos].

As for "following the logic" I only have one buddy who is likely to pirate games [cuz he has to have the latest and greatest FPS]. My other buddies would rather buy full copies from stores than put up with lousy P2P or warez sites. Quite frankly spending 50$ on a game I know I'm going to enjoy is better [to me at least] than downloading some virus ridden poorly cracked copy off the net that I can't use to play on the net and am not likely to be able to use patches/upgrades for.

I don't know about you... but the hours it takes to get an ISO off P2P put to better use more than pays for the game... of course that's just me... you know with a job that pays money ;-)

Tom

Re:MOD UP.

[hyphz]

Actually, piracy of application software is especially bad because it's unique amongst IP protected works in that one piece can be substituted for another. If you can't afford one CD, you can't buy another different CD that has all the same value to it. And piracy is bad in this case because it [i]badly[/i] hurts lower price competitors.

What art software do you want to use? Adobe Photoshop, for a few hundred dollars? Or maybe Paint Shop Pro, for less? Or maybe HandyPaint (fictitious) for even less money?

I mean, those extra features in Photoshop you probably aren't going to *use*, are you? So we may as well buy a cheaper one? PSP, then? Well, maybe. Or maybe that's too much...

Oh, right. You're a pirate. So you aren't going to pay for any of the software. So, might as well pirate Photoshop 'cos you don't care. And JASC and HandySoft get hosed, because their attempts to offer reasonable budget alternatives only leads to them being passed over by people who aren't paying for the software anyway.

Worse yet, if you get busted, the settlement money goes to Adobe. Even if, if it wasn't for piracy, they would have bought Jasc's product.

Re:MOD UP.

[JessLeah]

There is no correlation between pricing and piracy, and I challenge you to find any evidence to the contrary.

Yeah, I suppose all those penniless students studying in fields that are gonna require AutoCAD skills really have the option to buy AutoCAD for the low, low price of $3,470. Which, I might add, is more than most students pay for a car, a computer and all the software on it-- combined.

You can't really be so stupid to forget that not all software costs $99.95 or less...

Re:MOD UP.

[Cereal Box]

So these students can afford to pay $30K-$100K for their education but can't afford a few hundred dollars more for tools that will be invaluable during the span of their careers? You know why the don't buy Photoshop for After Effects? Because they don't have to. They can get it for free. They can't get a diploma for free, so they pay for it. Believe me, if they absolutely had to have Photoshop, but couldn't pirate it, they would pay the $500 or so it costs, "poor art student" or not.

Re:MOD UP.

[shepd]

>No. I'm sure if WinXP didn't have annoying license issues [e.g. requires a valid key you have to activate] people wouldn't really buy WinXP. I recall shops where a single key would be used to install dozens of copies of Win95/98. And it isn't as if WinXP is that much more spectacular than Win98SE for the vast majority of PC users.

Being a computer store and having to deal with pirated XP copies all the time with repairs (I generally tell users no, it won't be fixed unless you cough up an original, and your FCK key is just going to make your machine a Blaster hit), I can tell you pirated windows XP is still far more popular than I prefer.

It's such a pain to have to deal with users that buy a machine from me, without an OS, who ask stupid questions like "Uhhhh, my windows XP copy doesn't want to boot, can you fix it?". Hell no! Oh well...

A lot of stores don't understand why we're so careful -- that's because they don't sell satellite systems or modchips. I *have* to keep this store piracy-free, period.

That being said, the activation completely SUCKS, too. I have users that bring in machines 10 years old, who buy completely new systems and want to keep their software the same (why, who cares? They're paying, and junking the old system). They buy windows XP OEM from me, which makes sense, it's a completely new machine right?

Oh, but look! It won't do upgrades. So you hack the CD so it can. Oh hell again. Now it won't activate. So, what's left? They actually PAID for the software, and now they're screwed. That's not fair. That just makes people want to pirate a corporate XP professional copy, which ISN'T going to make them format their machine.

>Even if piracy drives sales that's why they make demos. Share the demos with your buddies [or ask developers to make more interesting demos].

That's a good point, however, the problems with demos are usually that the developers never update them, and, for online/LAN play, the demos won't co-operate with a purchased copy, leaving the demo guy without a way to join. That usually means he'll either pirate the game, or go home. Guess which one they usually pick? >:-D

>I don't know about you... but the hours it takes to get an ISO off P2P put to better use more than pays for the game... of course that's just me... you know with a job that pays money ;-)

Oh, hey, I totally understand that. But, after working retail, a large amount of customers can be REALLY stupid. The "winners" are the ones that drive to our store, say "Oh, but I can get it 5 dollars cheaper from Toronto", which is, of course, a 2 hour drive away. When most people can't add, you are screwed. :-S

Re:MOD UP.

[tomstdenis]

Um as for the trouble with WinXP activation... I upgraded parts on an older system [this is a while ago]. Yeah it bitched. I called the toll-free number and explained "I upgraded my HD to a new one" and they gave me the activation data on the spot.

Yeah it's a pain to call [it's even 100% automated now... no operators!] but it's impossible. However, without a valid key it's easy to get shut out of updates [specially SP1 as I learned... ;-)].

As for the stupid customers... well that's to be expected :-) Though sometimes it pays off. I recently moved from my AMD Barton to a P4 2.8C [it's ice cold during gentoo stage1 install... that makes me happy]. Anyways point is the shop where I brought my computer to had the cpu listed as 261$ [cdn]. While they were working on my computer [took a few days to order the parts] I found it cheaper in town. I told them and they lowered their price... So I guess it does pay to shop around a bit. All in all They did an awesome job and their prices were competitive.

Back to the matter at hand though. Just because people are stupid and will spend hours pirating software... doesn't mean it's good for business. Game developers [in particular] often release playable demos for the sole purpose of showing the game off so you can decide before you buy.

As for other software [OS, office] there are free alternatives... so why people resort to piracy is just plain beyond me. I mean sure I could pirate WinXP to run on my PC... or I could just run Gentoo which along with being free has a myriad of other benefits [like source based installs and very fine-tuned builds]....

Meh... all confused... I go sleep now ;-)

BTW if you really opt for a piracy free shop I commend you on that. Honest business is good business.

Re:MOD UP.

[Ghostx13]

Parent said that price had no correlation to piracy. So whats your point? Perhaps they have the money to pay for school, but don't have $700 to buy a PERSONAL copy of photoshop that they can use at home after paying for school. Or like the video student that I know that barely has enough money to pay for groceries. His school is paid for through scholarships. Unfortunatly for him the scholarships he has won't pay for a personal copy of After Effects when he can use the copy in the schools editing lab.

Past that, how many people do you know that are willing to pay nearly $700.00 for photoshop just to occasionally open it for some personal photo retouching? How about MS Office, another oft-pirated piece of software. How many people do you know that are willing to pay $400 to occasionally fire up Excel or Word?

My point is, these extreamly expensive pieces of software are pirated very often. Why? Because people that need them occasionaly aren't willing to pay for it when they can get it some other way. If it were more affordable, or even used something as off-the-wall as micropayments the piracy rates for titles like this would go down. Hence, my point of saying that high price and low incident of use induce some people to steal software.

Re:MOD UP.

[Cereal Box]

Perhaps they have the money to pay for school, but don't have $700 to buy a PERSONAL copy of photoshop that they can use at home after paying for school.

Unfortunatly for him the scholarships he has won't pay for a personal copy of After Effects when he can use the copy in the schools editing lab.

Bullshit. If they're somehow getting large sums of money to pay for school, they can afford to pay a small (by comparison) sum for a tool required for school and their job after school. Basically, Photoshop, for an art student, can be viewed simply as a required school expense, like books and lab fees. Your argument would sound quite silly if you were talking about a computer science student that can pay for school, but can't afford a computer. Nonsense. He NEEDS a computer. He will find a way to pay for it. Hello, student loans?

And, as anyone experienced with using high-end tools like Photoshop will tell you, that $700 is not a drain, it's an investment. Just like a computer for a computer science student is. Just like a college education is.

Past that, how many people do you know that are willing to pay nearly $700.00 for photoshop just to occasionally open it for some personal photo retouching?

There are plenty of cheaper tools well-suited to simple photo retouching tasks (GIMP, anyone?). Failing to research alternatives is no excuse for pirating software. You're basically saying, "I need to take red eye out of these photos. Photoshop does it, but it costs $700! I have no choice! I must pirate Photoshop!" This is ridiculous. People who need Photoshop know why they need it and know that nothing else will suffice. Therefore, the pricetag is justified. These "poor art students" are simply hiding behind the price excuse because they can download it for free. If they couldn't download it, they'd find a way to buy it (because they'd have to to complete their degree!), or they'd find an acceptable alternative, or they'd simply do without it.

Because people that need them occasionaly aren't willing to pay for it when they can get it some other way.

Again, more nonsense. Nobody who really needs Photoshop only needs it occassionally. They need Photoshop because they can't get their work done any other way. People who think that they only need Photoshop occassionally don't really NEED it at all.

Re:MOD UP.

[Daengbo]

BTW if you really opt for a piracy free shop I commend you on that. Honest business is good business.
I live in Thailand (like the piracy capital). and when I tell other people that my business uses 100% licensed software, they just look at me like "why?"
They don't even find piracy offensive at all.

Re:MOD UP.

[Naffer]

Wow, you're absolutly right. I'm impressed. I failed to mention in the article that I ended up using theGIMP instead of downloading photoshop, but your argument is extremely compelling nonethless.

Re:MOD UP.

[Moridineas]

Silly statement. Go look on any warez site, anywhere. What are you going to find? Adobe photoshop. Adobe photoshop. Maya, some video editing packages, Adobe photoshop...

Yes, you'll find them, along with every other piece of software. Check out the infamous suprnova site if you don't believe me.

Re:MOD UP.

[Moridineas]

I know quite a few graphical art students that have pirated Photoshop simply because they couldn't afford it. Did they want to buy it? Yes, it's their tool of choice. Could they afford it? No, their art students

What the hell is this supposed to mean? I want a car, I'm a student, I don't have a car. By your logic I should go steal a car. Is that seriously what you are saying?? I have a hard believing that even the most deluded person on slashdot would say that.

Re:MOD UP.

[HuguesT]

Tired old argument. Stealing a car and making a copy of photoshop (copyrigth infrigement) are not the same level of crime. In the first instance you deprive someone of their car and they can't get around much anymore. In the latter case Adobe doesn't see a sale that they wouldn't see anyway. If you are the bootlegger that's a different story.

I'm not condoning it, but buying a $2 bootleg copy of photoshop is easy, risk free, is pretty much a victimless crime and still doesn't carry much social stigma.

One of the reaons I've gone to Linux is I don't even need to be tempted to commit copyright infrigenemt. Maybe the tools are slightly inferior sometimes, but I can help improve them if I really feel strongly about it.

I'm very much in favour of copyright holder using the fullest extent of the law to uphold their right and making life hard for "pirates". It makes the alternatives look so much better.

Re:MOD UP.

[hyphz]

> Perhaps most fascinating is that you are
> suggesting that the market leaders should be
> clandestinely encouraging or at least turning
> a blind eye toward piracy in order to maintain
> their position, which is not currently the case

Um, not true. I remember it being very frequently stated that the reason why MS Office had almost no copy protection on any version prior to XP was that MS could afford it and it was helping them build a market base.

Office XP, with its activation features, only appeared a while after Lotus SmartSuite etc. had been pretty much wiped off the map.

Re:MOD UP.

[Ghostx13]

Again, all replies are missing my point. Weak arguments (or not) aside, my point remains that price point contributes to instances of piracy. If photoshop were $20.00 practically no one would pirate it. Why would you need to it's $20.00 ? It's a silly argument to compare stealing a car to stealing a piece of software:

1. Stealing a car takes a large amount of skill. Stealing software takes a google search.

2. Stealing a car requires a large number of other crimes to be sucessful (i.e. insurace fraud, alteration of DMV records, alteration of VIN numbers) Stealing software requires no other illegal acts.

Regardless of other arguments, wheather or not you belive that my arguments are valid, the point remains that a high price point contributes to a high instance of piracy.

Freenet and MUTE?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am surprised that they didn't use Freenet or MUTE to organize their files. Freenet also has an open source anonymous email client called Freemail you can download, its still alpha though.

Also if you want to encrypt your hard drive try open source Truecrypt, its the successor to Scramdisk.

Re:Freenet and MUTE?

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither Freenet nor MUTE works very well on large (600MB++) files.

Re:Freenet and MUTE?

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, I don't think you understand the level these guys are on. These aren't some end user "warez doodz".

There is a post talking about how ONE of fairlights distro sites was a 7TB site with a 1 Gig connection!

These guys aren't fucking around with some little p2p bullshit man!

Re:Freenet and MUTE?

[base3]

Try it again--and leave it running for awhile. You might find yourself surprised.

Re:Freenet and MUTE?

[ymgve]

What use is encrypted protocols when it's the guy on the other end of your connection that's the rat/cop and not anybody inbetween?

Re:Freenet and MUTE?

[zeroclip]

meh... if you want really good HD encryption i suggest loop-AES.
loop-aes.sf.net.

Both good and bad.

[Dark Lord Seth]

As much as I hate to admit it, software "piracy" is bad and no matter what excuses peiople come up with. There are many improvements to be made with the current system but that's not the main issue at the moment. Still though, copying and cracking software is wrong. I'm not justifying it for myself either, I know it's wrong.

Then again, the bad part is that the happened on request of the US customs. ( Over here in the Netherlands at least.. ) The idea that 'my'* goverment bends over to the US will without any investigation on it's own and just raids places the US goverment tells them to, scares me. What if I suddenly become a PITA to the US goverment? Will my place be raided too?

This is something very concerning. There are so many laws and regulations that nearly any normal living person is, unwillingly and unknowingly, violating some minor laws and regs. If people really wanted to fuck you up, they could just throw any laws they can find at you until they find SOMETHING you violate. Scarey thing is, what if the US goverment decides to fuck up someone's life abroad in the name of "fighting terrorism"? Will 'my' goverment roll over, bark thrice and give a paw at the US goverment then, as well?

* ... 'My' goverment as in... "I didn't vote that lying bastard PM of ours into power, thank you." goverment.

Re:Both good and bad.

[drinkypoo]

I mostly agree but a minor nit: cracking software is not wrong. I should be free to defeat any copy protection methods so long as I am not distributing software to others. CD checks are really annoying.

Re:Both good and bad.

[DroopyStonx]

Actually, it's not as bad as people make it out to be. It's only "bad" when others profit from it. Me downloading movies/software/games for my personal use and not distributing them... yeah, illegal, but honestly not THAT bad.

Re:Both good and bad.

[kirk444]

good or bad, it's nowhere near other crimes. Murder, Rape, let's not forget international terrorism. From the article it seems that a HUGE amount of manpower and time went into this "raid" and that it was wholly unsuccessful.. (Aren't CD burners free after rebate these days?) With the resources devoted here, as it's been said before, maybe we could have caught a murderer who got away, a rapist off the streets. Something that's more helpful than a couple of crackers.

Re:Both good and bad.

[Dark Lord Seth]

Really?

I sympathize, really. I do own a few legal games and CD checks ONLY to see if you got the legal CDs are annoying. I paid 40+ for a CD or two, a cheap-ass quickstart guide ( no more printed manuals, go print the PDF on the CD ) and a cheap DVD case already, be glad I bought it already and not downloaded it. Anyways, all those little copy-protection things annoy me, like activation codes, SafeDisc and all other protections which mangle CDs, etc etc. But remember, just because I sympathize with you and agree with you on this doesn't mean the game-producers do. And guess which of us has more money to donate to political campaigns?

Besides, circumventing ANY kind of protection on software and/or data is illegal by US law. And this whole stunt clearly show that US laws is pretty much king all over the world these days. It's a sad state of affairs, but there's not allot I can do about it, being a non-US citizen.

Re:Both good and bad.

[eclectro]

Also, you should be able to do anything with the software that you legally obtained anyway.

For an instance, many applications feel the necessity to phone home everytime at startup. Maybe I don't want a software maker keeping tabs on when and how I use their product.

Re:Both good and bad.

[Famatra]

"As much as I hate to admit it, software "piracy" is bad and no matter what excuses peiople come up with."

Ya that's exactly right. If copyright was 5 years and it was 4 years and 364 days after release and I copy it God is sending me straight to hell. The next day though I can copy it and God cut's me a break.

Ya right. I think *you* need to examine the idea that copyright is an artifical barrier to the free flow of information. A barrier, that was suppose to promote the creation of new ideas, that does not seem to be working that great esp. since this barrier continues to be increased in length.

I have no problem with copying software I know I'd never buy, and buying software I know I will like and use.

Re:Both good and bad.

[itchy92]

Well, yeah, I shot him, but not in a vital organ. I mean, he didn't die, so it's not THAT bad...

Of course, some one will say that's not a valid comparison; yes it is. There's always some worse degree of action you can perform, but that's not a valid justification for the action.

Re:Both good and bad.

[DroopyStonx]

My justification is: because I want to and there's nothing anyone can really do about it. Good enough? ;)

Re:Both good and bad.

[eclectro]

I did not mean to imply filesharing was legal in my post (unless it is allowed by the copright holder).

I think that it is morally acceptable to modify any software that you obtain legally, as it runs on your computer.

I say morally, as the DMCA could legally prevent some activities. However, I'm somebody who is at disagreement with this law.

Re:Both good and bad.

[Denial93]

Scarey thing is, what if the US goverment decides to fuck up someone's life abroad in the name of "fighting terrorism"?

You mean like this?

Re:Both good and bad.

[zeroclip]

It's only wrong because the law says so. i don't think it's moraly wrong. The people that need software buy it, those who don't, pirate it.

100 cd copiers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Was it really 100 cd copiers or was it just 2 52x cdr drives?

Remember the funny games they play in these kind of reports like the RIAA counting every 40x copier as 4 copiers or something ridiculous like that...

Or did out of all 120(!) searches find 1 cd burner at each location! Oh wow what pc doesnt have a cd burner standard...

FLT doesn't distribute anything on CD it just goes up on the top sites and then trickles down to the average "d00d" from there. It's a "non-profit" operation.

Also the crap at the bottom about increasing Englands GDP and created 40,000 jobs! Get real! It's not creating any wealth in fact its reducing wealth because now people have to waste money on this software that would have been spent on something else. To improve the GDP production has to go up. In a way all this did was decrease over all production because now there will be less copies of this software. (true now the money will get funneled into the corporations that own the IP to these products but it's just swapping the money around not creating any new value)

Re:100 cd copiers?

[danila]

To improve the GDP production has to go up.
Wanna bet that most gavernment whores don't understand that? It might be all bullshit, but from the countless interviews those idiots give (in different countries, but there are same idiots everywhere) it appears that they honestly believe that piracy has a negative economic effect.

I am glad that at least someone around here understands it and takes the trouble to explain it to others. Unfortunately, AC, your voice is drowned by idiots, who just repeat that "software "piracy" is bad and no matter what excuses peiople come up with".

Come on, is it really that hard to understand that selling software is a zero-sum game - money just changes hands. It's in using software that value is created and it doesn't matter whether the software is pirated.

Re:100 cd copiers?

[cheekyboy]

GDP is fake any way.

In a perfect closed system, its static, any increase comes from IMPORTS, but I doubt UK as a trade balance thats positive, (OIL sales help a lot from north sea) so the real gain from GDP? fractional reserve banking of lending cash out thats made from THIN AIR. Thats how GDP is made. Ever wonder why GDP is always slight lower than official money supplies in the system?

Humans are addicted to the illusion of INCREASING numbers , like inflation/gdp etc.. when really its all static with fluctuations when looked at terms of relative values.

Fair light on Fairlight

[andr0meda]

It's somewhat necessary to note that Fairlight is not just a warez group, but also is a famous demoscene participant, having produced leading demos/intros/graphics and music in c64 and pc sections.

Fairlight is more than just the scum everybody will certainly take them for. The present demoscene has it's early roots in hacker and cracker groups. As a result, Fairlight is probably the longest standing group in the scene, and it is no surprise they are linked to the warez scene.

Another thing to note is that the current entertainment industry (think games and movies) is filled with loads of people working their ass off, that got to know their tricks of the trade *because* there was/is a warez scene.

The system is a hypocrit.

Re:Fair light on Fairlight

[Willard B. Trophy]

Back when I used to review computer games (was it really 15 years ago? sheesh!) we sometimes got games to review via crackers since the publisher couldn't get a copy to us in time. This was always done with the full consent (and often at the intigation) of the publishers.

Re:Fair light on Fairlight

[Trespass]

In certain industries (including the one I'm currently working in) the fact that many of the people working in it learned on illegally obtained software is both 1) tacitly understood and 2) never spoken of.

We can speak of law, IP, and morality all we wish, but at the end of the day there are many people with drive and talent who, for whatever reason, opted to do something illegal to get what they felt they needed.

I really don't see that changing.

Re:Fair light on Fairlight

[aliquis]

Word, I see nothing wrong in piracing, but then I also live in Sweden ;/. I mostly run FreeBSD and therefor I don't HAVE to pay for much software at all since most needs are saticfied with free software. I've actually bought two games lately aswell, Warcraft III ROC and TFT, why? Because they are worth it. Would I buy Windows to play them? No, why? Because it's not worth it.

This shit against fairlight just makes me sad, the losses are in the piracing made be each user, IF they would have been considering buying the software instead, but only if that would be the case. To release a crack to something doesn't matter, someone whould have done it sooner or later anyway and noone HAVE to copy any software just because there is a crack available.

The world needs more cracktros, intros and demos. Let the scene live. What fairlight does is creativity and inspiracy, the piracy of software is made by the actual user. I don't see Bofors getting raided because they make weapons for various wars.

(btw, I would buy a movie if it costed 50sek, a game for 100-150 if it's not really good, pay 10sek for a music album and so on. But that's about it, to me a movie isn't worth 250sek, and 20 songs of which i like 3 aren't worth 180sek. Simple as that.)

Re:Fair light on Fairlight

[npsimons]

It's somewhat necessary to note that Fairlight is not just a warez group, but also is a famous demoscene participant, having produced leading demos/intros/graphics and music in c64 and pc sections.

Yeah, I was wondering about this, as I happen to consider some of Fairlight's music pretty darn good. It's sad to see this happen, and it makes one a little more paranoid and wondering: isn't it suspicious that a crackdown on these "pirates" will probably effectively eliminate a source of competition for other "intellectual property" groups (the RIAA). Are the BSA, RIAA and MPAA in collusion?

Re:Fair light on Fairlight

[StillAnonymous]

On a related note, Cinemaware released the old versions of Defender of the Crown to the public for free. Ironically, the version they offer for the C64 on their website is a cracked version. The original was protected and is somewhat difficult to dump to a disk image.

Piracy is plain wrong.

[polyp2000]

It doesnt matter which way you look at it. If you cant afford to pay for proprietary software then it doesnt make it right to pirate it.

While on one hand i can understand the activism side of it, and most people i know have at least one piece of pirate software. Pirating software is doing nothing in the long run to change the way the evil companies run their business. It does nothing to hinder vendor lock-in and pirated software is a hot house for the propogation of viruses etc.

People still continue to do it. Beleive it or not there is a whole world of software that is free to copy modify and do what the hell you like with. Its called Open Source and you can find software to fulfil most of your needs. Best of all its totally legal and having it is not going to get you arrested or locked up.

I remember the last time my boss instructed us to do a software audit many of my colleagues went through the annoying process of writing down license keys, removing "illegal" software, while i just sat there and did nothing, safe in the knowledge that my linux desktop contained nothing that needed to be accounted for.

Next time you think that you are making a statement by using pirated software, consider what you are really acheiving. If you really beleive in those virtues you should bite off your tongue and use the legal alternatives. This way you can harm the people you hate, and support the rest of us who are legally fighting the software war.

nick ...

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[man_ls]

I'm gonna bite the troll...

I got my career started using pirate software. Let me immidiately say that in no way to I think what I was doing was good, right, or moral, but it was necessary.

I needed to become certified for the purposes of expanding my business, consulting. This was a number of years ago. So I used pirated Microsoft products to train on and become familiar with.

As soon as my initial lack-of-investment came back to make me money, I promptly purchased legitimate licenses for all the software I was using. It's important for my business to operate legitimately, and it's the morally and legally right thing to do, so I did it.

Again, I don't condone what I did, but I made it right, and I wouldn't be where I am now without it. There's just no way a small business with almost no initial capital could purchase some of this software without going into debt--which wasn't an option at the time.

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[maximilln]

-----
There are no real excuses, in the end if you feel that you are being hard done by, by a particular company then why the hell do you want to use their products in the first place?
-----
Maybe it has something to do with that company lobbying my politicians to use my tax money to put those products in my schools and make them part of my curriculum without ever asking me if I agree that their product is best suited for the task. They've already been given my tax money why should I have to pay for their product again at home?

Growing up using Linux isn't going to do the kids much good when the school and the office uses MS products. Granted, the kids using Linux are going to be more innovative and more intelligent but when the boss is an MS Nazi they're more likely to get fired for being different, "not a team player", that sort of thing.

-----
Piracy was one of the contributing factors to the demise of that platform
-----
Just like breathing oxygen eventually contributes to death. The only thing that killed the Amiga was horrible mismanagement, the sudden rise of Microsoft, the flooding of the market with cheap x86 hardware, and the rise of Intel to kill off Motorola.

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[polyp2000]

Maybe it has something to do with that company lobbying my politicians to use my tax money to put those products in my schools and make them part of my curriculum without ever asking me if I agree that their product is best suited for the task. They've already been given my tax money why should I have to pay for their product again at home?

Id just like to re-iterate the following in relation to that statement..

People just dont seem to be aware that their individual actions while seemingly insignificant on a personal basis are instrumental in shaping the way things work as a whole.

no need to comment on the rest of it as I didnt notice that you made any other particularly relevent points.

Nick ...

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[maximilln]

-----
People just dont seem to be aware that their individual actions while seemingly insignificant on a personal basis are instrumental in shaping the way things work as a whole
-----
Or, in the case of people who are already in positions of power and are happily bleeding their customer base dry for every dollar they can get...

They just don't care.

-----
no need to comment on the rest of it as I didnt notice that you made any other particularly relevent points.
-----
Your pithy personal attack may help you live longer but it won't make you a better person.

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[polyp2000]

Or, in the case of people who are already in positions of power and are happily bleeding their customer base dry for every dollar they can get...

They just don't care.

Dont you think that people should be encouraged to care? Yes there are evil people in positions of power, instead of moaning about it I think that people should be encouraged to do something about it, IMHO piracy is a negative way to do this.

Your pithy personal attack may help you live longer but it won't make you a better person.

Get real dude this is only a website (chill winston!) I might be passionate about my views on this subject, and just because we have two differing opinions it doesnt make me a bad person or a good one. In fact Im sure the both of us could sit down enjoying a nice cold beer on a nice sunny day and get along just fine ;)

Nick...

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[maximilln]

-----
Yes there are evil people in positions of power, instead of moaning about it I think that people should be encouraged to do something about it
-----
You suggest becoming politically active? Maybe take a few rubber bullets for the greater good of society? In the end, what's it going to change?

Without a wholesale reevaluation of the entire political and justice systems there is no way to fix this.

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[Lord_Dweomer]

Listen up troll, companies NEED people to pirate their software.

Yeah, you heard me right. Adobe would be nowhere near what they are today if Photoshop wasn't one of the most pirated pieces of software on the net.

You see, people in college download a copy...learn how to use it...do their assignments with it, etc.

Now, they go on to become a graphic designer for some company. Well, that company sure as hell doesn't want to get sued, and will be more than happy to purchase a license.

You see, what you fail to realize is that its not Joe Consumer that makes companies big profits, its their B2B contracts that rake it in. The software being pirated by regular people could be considered viral marketing and likened to a fully functional demo, with the expectation that once you use it for work you intent to sell, or when you use it for a company, you pay up. THAT is the way the world works, like it or not.

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[polyp2000]

Sure they do, I never denied it.

That doesnt make it legal.

If people NEED to pirate their software does that mean they are forcing people into doing so?

No! Of course it doesnt. Its because so many people have this half assed attitude that they NEED to have a specific piece of software that companies will continue charging extortionate prices and all the rest that goes with it. What each and every one of you is doing is increasing the userbase, ensuring that their products continue to dominate the market. What im talking about here is that people should not need to commit an illegal act in order to use this software. It should be cheaper or they should use alteratives. Vote with your wallet, support those that need your support and not those that are trying to rip you off. You are just exacerbating the situation.

Adobe would be nowhere near what they are today if Photoshop wasn't one of the most pirated pieces of software on the net.

That is exactly the point and you helped it get there. Downside is you had a hand in making it so expensive and in the process helped them to remove any competitors from the market.

You see, what you fail to realize is that its not Joe Consumer that makes companies big profits

Isnt this a bit of a contradiction? It seems to me that on one hand you are saying that all these people who have been pirating software have helping Adobe maintain there monopoly on photoshop, while on the other hand saying that joe consumer isnt helping them make big profits. Make your mind up! The truth is there plain to see.

Last of all piracy is a crime, thats right anybody who has a single piece of pirated software is a criminal. Most people dont care, maybe the law isnt right or whatever. But you can influence change. Support and use alternatives.

Nick ...

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[polyp2000]

Its funny how you removed the emphasis on the word one. I made it bold , like this, one because I was trying to make a point that im fully aware that it wasnt the sole reason for this. Also because i knew some idiot like you wouldnt read it properly and make a snyde remark.

Even with the emphasis on the word one you still managed to read it incorrectly, and in the process removing the emphasis when you re-quoted me. I said it was one of the contributing factors asshole, not the sole reason.

Instead you ended up exposing your inability to read properly even when key words have been emphasized for your benefit.

nick..

Re:Piracy is plain wrong.

[petrus4]

>I got my career started using pirate software.

>Let me immidiately say that in no way to I think

>what I was doing was good, right, or moral, but

> it was necessary.

(Emphasis mine)

Can you spell "hypocrisy", kids? I don't have a problem with piracy at all, myself...but this guy proves the illegitimacy of his own argument. Anybody with a half-way consistent system of ethics does NOT subscribe to the philosophy that the ends justify the means.

If you think piracy is wrong, don't use pirated software. Full stop. Then wonder why (unless you use Linux) you won't be able to afford an operating system, graphics software, (ESPECIALLY 3D software) music...or really a computer at all. Any and all arguments claiming that piracy is morally wrong are based purely on greed. Yes, of course I believe that software developers need to get compensated for their work...but they invariably do. There are so many different possible ways to make money from the sale of software that it hardly bears mention...Hell, if you're really lazy you can make money flogging burnt Knoppix or Slackware CDs and docs if you want...The GPL allows it, and also doesn't put any restrictions on how much you charge for it.
The only people seriously beating the "piracy is wrong" drum are those who are crying into their champagne about how they possibly made only $500 billion last financial year instead of 6. Boo hoo, guys...I really feel your pain. It's heartbreaking.

people were laying across borders

[morcheeba]

The people arrested were actualy laying on the interesctions of various country borders in order to make their arrest harder. A very clever tactic.

One guy was on the Franco-Sweedish-Hungarian-Israeli border, another one was on the German-Belgium-Danish-Netherlands border, and the purpored ring leader (aka "Long Larry") was sprawled out along the US-UK-Singapore border.

Re:people were laying across borders

[Jerry]

Gee, Mexico and Canada I knew about, but I didn't know I could walk to Britain or Singapore from Lincoln. ;-)

Re:people were laying across borders

[espo812]

The people arrested were actualy laying on the interesctions of various country borders in order to make their arrest harder. A very clever tactic.

But a very old tactic. Voltaire did this as far back as the 1750s:

He was here practically at the meeting-point of four distinct jurisdictions--Geneva, the canton Vaud, Sardinia, and France, while other cantons were within easy reach; and he bought other houses dotted about these territories, so as never to be without a refuge close at hand in case of sudden storms.

Re:people were laying across borders

[IdleTime]

I know I'm stoned right now, but damn, what the heck is parent talking about? "Franco-Sweedish-Hungarian-Israeli border"? What the fu*k is that? And "US-UK-Singapore border."???

Brother, whatever you are smoking right now, hook me up!!!!

Re:people were laying across borders

[D'Sphitz]

yeah definately, because we all know how cool it is to get stoned. 420 d00dz!!!!@@

Re:people were laying across borders

[Dreadlord]

Easy, check out the page history.

Last edit was on 17 April.

Re:people were laying across borders

[Three Headed Man]

You can check the page history to see how recently it has been changed. Not a foolproof method, but will show blatant manipulation. They keep previous versions stored as well.

Re:people were laying across borders

[ratsnapple tea]

(a) We Slashdotters may have the time to check the page history for signs of abuse, but I doubt many others have the patience for that kind of obnoxious footwork.

(b) Even seeing that the last edit was a week ago, what does that prove? So someone edited it a week ago and slipped in that little lie, which has escaped the notice of whoever happens to be keeping an eye on the article. Why is this so unlikely?

My point is that Wikipedia is not, repeat NOT an authoritative source. It's a social experiment--a very interesting social experiment, but nothing more. Point being that if the original poster wanted to back up his assertion, he could have done a hell of a lot better, as sources go, than Wikipedia.

I'll sign my name to this one...

Re:people were laying across borders

[mikaelhg]

Click on the diff button, moron. You'll see exactly what was changed and when.

Re:people were laying across borders

[ratsnapple tea]

And how is that a guarantee of accuracy? "Moron."

Re:people were laying across borders

[espo812]

if the original poster wanted to back up his assertion, he could have done a hell of a lot better, as sources go, than Wikipedia.

I wasn't trying to back up my assertion, I was trying to link to a source with more information incase someone cared about learning about Voltaire. Actually, I was looking for a link about what we discussed in my Western Civ class: Voltaire had a house built ontop of the boarder between two countries. So, when authorties in one country got pissed at him, he moved to a room in the other half of the house.

Francis Drake, Pirate and Knight

[handy_vandal]

Drake would copy DVDs if he were here today...and wasn't he knighted or some bullshit?

Indeed: Francis Drake was knighted on April 4, 1581 by Queen Elizabeth.

See wikipedia for details.

-kgj

More arrests

[kasperd]

Multiple sources reports about two arrests in connection with the raid in Denmark

• http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/article.jhtml?art icleID=163603
• http://www.computerworld.dk/default.asp?Mode=2&Art icleID=23442
• http://www.computerworld.dk/default.asp?Mode=2&Art icleID=23449
• http://newz.dk/forum/item/29484/

The law is just?

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone mentioned that rape carries less of a jail term than piracy does. It's very simple to understand why. Rape has nothing to do with corporate interests, thus Congress cares less about a woman being violated in the worst way possible, and more about protecting the interests of their campaign contributors.

Piracy isn't always bad.

[LordK3nn3th]

I would -never- had bought Neverwinter Nights and its two expansions had it not been for downloading it first.

Re:Piracy isn't always bad.

[master_p]

You could have tried the demo. That's why demos exist...to test the software before buying it. There is no excuse in piracy.

I am wondering though: will prices fall if there is no piracy? I think not. And here is a big hypocrisy: companies want to increase their profits...they don't care about the act of piracy. In fact, if they could get money out of piracy, they would do so.

By the way, there should be a law that says that after production costs are covered and a reasonable profit is made, a software product's price must be lowered to 10% of its initial price. It is unfair to pay for something that is 90% profit.

Re:Jeez

[MethylPhreak]

I know the parent comment is redundant, but I must say that reading the DOJ description of the operation does sound exactly the same as the way they describe big drug cartels.

And like the drug cartels, this stuff is going to continue as long as mankind is around. There is never going to be an end to software piracy, or the piracy of any IP for that matter.

Unlike software piracy, however, we *could* eliminate the "War on Drugs" easily and without destroying the fabric of a capitalist society ;)

MOD PARENT UP

[Meneudo]

Indeed. The issue isn't how much damage you are doing, it's who you're doing it to. A multi-million dollar company is able to screw the hell out of you in court, and if you don't have the money to afford a lawyer of that calibur, you can kiss your ass goodbye. (Laywers, law enforcement officials, etc, etc)

Unfortunantly, the more power these companies get, the more and more likely they will be able to invade our privacy, or, as you say, make these random home searches.

And don't forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

...scientists believe there's oil under the Antarctic ice sheet...

History says no

[Anonymous Coward]

"People will even pirate data worth 99 cents... so long as there's a price tag, there's people who try to get around it."

We had this already in the 80's with Video games.
Games were $7-10,

Mastertronic cut the price of games to 99p (about $1.5) and vastly outsold everyone. They then resigned membership of the anti-piracy trade groups (the BSAs of the day) because piracy was no longer a problem for them.

If people consider a game worth $10-$20 then you get negligible piracy if you charge $10, moderate piracy at $20 and a lot of piracy at $50.

Re:History says no

[Duty]

Then why is shareware cracking so prevalent? Registration fees are rarely priced as high as retail software.

Re:History says no

[thogard]

Because of the US$ difference and what is reasonable in most places in the world. That US$10 shareware program will buy the author 3 big macs but it will cost the buyer a weeks food in some parts of the world. That results in cracks and once the cracks are out, they flow all over the world.

Best Line in Article:

[Romothecus]

"The NHTCU quotes an IDC study that estimates that a 10 per cent reduction in UK piracy would contribute $17.5bn for the UK's GDP, indirectly create 40,000 jobs and generate $4.1bn in tax revenue." I love insanely inflated figures like that. Imagine what a 10% reduction in piracy could do for the US economy! We could probably save social security or institute a national health program by eliminating piracy. ;)

Re:Best Line in Article:

[syukton]

I'm totally confused by those numbers. Are they assuming that if piracy comes to an end that people will start to buy the products they've been pirating? Are they oblivious to the concept of "poor" and how it affects one's spending? Does it even occur to the powers that be, that pirates are too damn poor to buy software, and they therefore pirate it?

Ending piracy will likely do nothing positive for anyone.

Re:Best Line in Article:

[danila]

Aargh! It makes me furious that there is no capital punishment for bullshiting in the media. I would have burned my collection of pirated games only to have these idiots realise that piracy creates value, not destroys it...

Re:Best Line in Article:

[Cinquero]

Well, these arguments may be correct to some extent. But one should keep in mind that Slashdotters are a special sort of people. We think about moral issues and 'free beer'. But there's another world where assholes are proud of getting a software package in an illegal way for half-price, eg. route maps for their new cars.

Re:Best Line in Article:

[cheekyboy]

Utter crap.

And where does this magical CASH come from? its a zero sum game.

Talk about voodoo economics!!!!

www.perfecteconomy.com

Re:No. He's The Number One Threat To The World.

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

*picks up tin-foil hat*

Hey, man.. you dropped this. Maybe you should get a chin-strap for that thing.

Canuck Thought

[pipingguy]

Once again, Canada has been ignored. Bastards.

I call...

[yoshi_mon]

Still though, copying and cracking software is wrong.

Scenario 1 -- I have a few kids that run loose in my house. (I'm not some SOB who puts them on those leashes, wtf is that all about.) They seem to manage to get into my computer room sometimes and play frisbee with my CD's. If I didn't have a *legal thanks to fair use* copy of my software that I *paid for* I would be SOL.
Moral: Copying software is *NOT* always wrong.

Scenario 2 -- I have a killer cool gaming rig that I then go out and buy all sorts of games. I bring home a copy of latest game X and lo and behold the copy protection that the feckless losers at the publishing co installed (Note, I said publishers not developers. Most times the developers realize that protection is a waste of time and it's the damn suits who insist on the protection.) does not seem to work right with my CD-ROM drive. Now I can't play the game that I just *paid for* and when I go to try and do anything about it all the morons at BestBuy can do is sit there with their thumbs in their asses and if I'm lucky give me store credit so I can go maybe use it on some overpriced RIAA crap that will proably install deathware on my PC when I go to play it there anyway. But luckily instead of having to deal with all that I can download a crack and play the game I paid for!
Moral: Cracking software is *NOT* always wrong.

Rant mode off.

Re:I call...

[YrWrstNtmr]

They seem to manage to get into my computer room sometimes and play frisbee with my CD's.

You need to corral those porch monkeys.

Fight the Corporate machine

[Anonymous Coward]

You arent preventing a thing. Keep giving into the delusion that your preventing piracy, keep sending people to jail for 5 years for selling there used cds on ebay and sharing music while the rapist goes free, while Bin Ladin's followers fly another plane into a building. We all know the corporate lies we have been fed and they they feed us well. Trade a life for a corporate dollar without remorse, we all know the amounts of money they dontate to the government to fund our meaningless heroes the FBI so they can hunt down 12 yr old girls who share Britney Spears albums, maby the occational cracker who is replaced in seconds as your brilliant FBI team takes them down. (thx for ManHunt Razor911) This is a game of cat and mouse and we all know the cat will never catch all the mice, and we will ALWAYS get our cheese. Your Freedom is a Lie. Corporate whores.

E V I D E N C E

[mfh]

Most of the raids were for supporting evidence.

piracy increases userbase dominance

[future assassin]

With out piracy lots of software wouldnt have such a huge userbase. Windows? Photoshop? I use Photoshop 7 which I dl'd for free but other wise I would never have bought it for home use especially at $1200 CDN. Now because I would not have bought it in the first place Adobe lost no money and get free advertising as I tell eveyone Photoshop kicks ass. Now if I was making money off it and used it in a business I definatelly would pay for it.

the usual fallacy.

[bongobongo]

same old incorrect assupmtion: people would spend all their money on legitimate software if it weren't for the existence of warez.

this might be true in some cases, but i'm certain that a majority of the time people just don't have the money to buy a certain program, because:

-they are poor (software companies wouldn't get their money either way)
-they are trying a program out of curiosity and not need (software companies wouldn't get their money either way)
-they want the software only for some small aspect of it which is not alone worth anything close to the cost of the full package (software companies wouldn't get their money either way)

sometimes of course professionals pirate software out of greed. but i would be very surprised if this were anything but a small minority of cases. billions of dollars and thousands of jobs.... don't make me laugh.

if the software companies want to eliminate the petty piracy i've outlined above they should devise ways to compete. ie, highly inexpensive "lite" versions, or demo versions that actually WORK a bit, or stripping off various modules from a given software package and selling them at very lo w prices.

just some ideas.

Re:the usual fallacy.

[Mike Hawk]

this might be true in some cases,

So despite the fact that you claim it IS true in some cases, noone should do anything?

hehe. don't be silly

[xilmaril]

haven't you ever wondered why nothing bad ever happens to the 2nd biggest country in the world?

The **AA is merely the first wave of our global invasion force. Vive Le Canadiens!

Re:Stupid

[black mariah]

What moron modded this bullshit insightful?

Kiddie porn rings are busted everyday, but it's not Slashdot worthy because it doesn't in some way involve software that costs money.

Nazi groups have a right to say what they want, and you have a right to not read it.

This shit is about as insightful as suddenly realizing that the sky is blue on your 30th birthday.

whack a mole

[Anonymous Coward]

the funniest thing about the whole thing is that FAiRLIGHT was about to release Manhunt when they were raided, but then a couple days later Razor 1911, a warez group thats been around since the mid 80's, released Manhunt!

the most ironic thing is that the leader of Razor 1911 was just sent to jail a few months ago

they're playing whack a mole!

Funny thing is...

[imsabbel]

i may have bought them if i had not downloaded them first ...

---
hypotetically, of course. shoo shoo NSA...

My question:

[user no. 590291]

Which particular companies were these raids on behalf of? It's easy to know how to vote in the next election (more resources to protect us from terrorism, indeed), but harder to know what to avoid purchasing or specifying.

WOW 3 members of FLT!

[SCVirus]

11 countries 3 arrests, now how does that work. They raided in 11 countries only 3 people were found that means in 8 countries they found jack. The fact that they had so many unsuccessful raids means they were trying that many targets means even the cops know that FLT is far to large to be taken down.

Here the link to the story

[Seekerofknowledge]

http://slashdot.org/articles/02/12/15/1759227.shtm l?tid=141

All these investigative resources . . .

[user no. 590291]

. . . when all they'd really have to do to catch every copyright misappropriator would be to release some spyware that calls home if the machine has the NFO extension associated with a text editor :).

Re:All these investigative resources . . .

[user no. 590291]

Yeah, it was a worm that did it, that's the ticket. It's the same one that put all those warez and mp3s on my hard drives :).

Re:Stupid

[MalleusEBHC]

An earlier poster already commented on the Nazi and kiddie porn lines, but you should also check your facts about Bin Laden. Unless he is hiding in the US, he is not the FBI's responsibility to catch. Remember, they are the Federal Bureau of Investigations.

It's the spam, stupid

[cammoblammo]

Are these three responsible for all the *(&^%*& crap in my inbox that's been advertising apparently legal versions of Photoshop, MS-Office, Windows and so on?

If so, I don't feel quite so sorry for them.

Ripping off poor corporations is one thing. Insulting me like this is quite another.

Fairlight bad

[Old Wolf]

Does fairlight do any legal stuff too? Going back a few years now, everybody I know got all their Amiga 500 games off the Fairlight catalogue. I always presumed they were acting on behalf of all the game developers, especially since they posted their stuff in public places and newspapers all the time.

Re:Fairlight bad

[kemikalzen]

Interesting question, being an old-timer i remember crews like Fairlight and Razor 1911 best for their demos in the late 80s and early 90s. The question is if these guys are the same guys or even a legitimate division of the original crew. I remember Razor had boards back in the day, but to my best knowledge the whole crew was founded in the demoscene by gius like Sector 9 and Dr No.

Not BS, Just Misleading

[einhverfr]

Then we can see clear evidence that all these figures thrown around about losses from piracy are utter bullshit.

I don't think they are BS, actually. I actually do think that unauthorized distribution of software is something which is surprisingly harmful to our ability to obtain quality software at low costs (or even free of charge). However, companies like Vivendi-Universal and Microsoft make it sound like they are the victims (when in fact they are the benefactors) of these crimes. Here is how it works:

Tim O'Reilly wrote an article describing "piracy" as progressive taxation. He observed, rightly, that the most commonly sold items were pirated at a disporportionate rate (i.e. MS Office is pirated many many times more often than Corel's equivalent, etc).

While this metaphore *may* hold water for the entertainment industry (where alternatives are only alternatives in so far as people have limited time and money), it is not adequate to describe piracy of Windows, Office, Photoshop, etc, because in these markets alternatives are alternatives based on other things (investment in proficiency, functionality, efficiency of accomplishing a task). Therefore, piracy of one Eminem CD does not imply the loss of a total sale in the entertainment industry, while a pirated copy of Microsoft Office does.

When someone pirates a copy of MS Office, they are willfully making the decision not to pay for a product, but they are also making the decision not to investigate other alternatives. Thus, in the absence of MS Office piracy, OpenOffice might find a larger audience. In the absense of Windows piracy, Linux would have a larger audience.

When I was in Indonesia, I witnessed the effect of a crackdown of unauthorized, unauthentic ("pirated") software. The result was, unsurprisingly, that many businesses chose to move to Linux rather than pay Microsoft for licenses.

Unlicensed distribution of software is damaging. We in the open source community are its primary victims because it denies us the opportunity to make a sale. Cracking down on piracy, therefore, is (I believe) beneficial to all of us.

I do, however sympathize with people who worry that this is part of an overall process which seeks to DRM-ize all content, but this is another question. My answer to it is simple, though it does require a life-style adjustment. Simply don't do business with bad companies, especially those presume that because you do business with them, that you are a criminal. If we do this, then the bad companies will go away, and we will be able to select which companies survive. But this takes spreading the word.

Re:Not BS, Just Misleading

[HrothgarReborn]

Great Insite in the parent post!
When I was a dumb kid I used to pirate everything. I even did contract work for a few businesses and asked them if they wanted to save money by using a pirate copy. They universally said yes!!

When I grew up and learned Linux in '94 my piracy decreased as I weaned myself off of comercial apps. Even now that I have gone to using a Mac (as well as Linux), I find I will not pirate, instead I work with open source instead.

I now save businesses I consult for by pointing them at Linux and Open Source.

Re:Not BS, Just Misleading

[moonbender]

While I agree with your main point, that piracy does lead to a decrease of market share for cheaper/free/open source alternatives, the number of pirated copies does still not equal the number of lost sales.

You say: Therefore, piracy of one Eminem CD does not imply the loss of a total sale in the entertainment industry, while a pirated copy of Microsoft Office does.

And then in the very next sentence you say: When someone pirates a copy of MS Office, they are willfully making the decision not to pay for a product, but they are also making the decision not to investigate other alternatives. Thus, in the absence of MS Office piracy, OpenOffice might find a larger audience. In the absense of Windows piracy, Linux would have a larger audience.

Which refutes the first sentence: If the person had not stolen MS Office in the first place, there is a (significant) chance that he would have gone for another cheaper or free product. That is, #pirated copies >> #lost sales.

Re:Not BS, Just Misleading

[einhverfr]

People might choose to buy commercial open source software (RH Enterprise Linux, for example). But I was using the term "make a sale" more generally.

By selling someone open source software, commercial or otherwise, we are getting people to invest their time and money in this product. As in proprietary software, this increased pace of development, and in the end means better software (MS software is pretty decent proprietary software compared to many of its competitors).

Re:3 people and 200 computers

[eclectro]

Yes, take for instance my setup;

Number of functional computers (even though it is out of its case and cables are everywhere); 1

Number of computers if I were to actually put all the pieces of computers together and have actual computers: 10

Number of computers if I were to use all the CPUs I have laying around: 25

We need a slashdot poll

[NotQuiteReal]

Ill-gotten software poll, choose all that apply:

[] I never purchased anything I could get a bootleg of.
[] I never used illegal copies of something I could buy.
[] I would never buy something I already have an illegal copy of.
[] I have subsequently purchased items I "tried" bootlegs of.
[] I have bootleg software I have no intention of using.
[] I have no copies of bootleg software whatsoever.
[] I regularly push little old ladies down outside of my local Best Buy and take the software they have purchased so that I can crack it and post it in a warez group.

But rapists...

[DustinB]

...don't cost corporations revenue loss.

Re:Israel

[ThreeDayMonk]

I don't particularly like the heavy-handed use of the law to protect "intellectual property", but the reality is that most of us live in places where legal frameworks apply. And I guess that Israel is - most of the time - one of those nations.

Even when a nation is under great pressure, regular law enforcement doesn't suddenly stop. In fact, it often becomes more stringent - looters have frequently been shot, for example, in many countries during wartime.

If only the most heinous crimes were targeted for enforcement, the rule of law would quickly break down. I'm sure that very few people would be content if the police refused to stop muggers or burglars on the basis that "there are more important crimes to worry about."

I also dispute your characterisation of those being busted as "warez kiddies" - it looks to me like they are going after the big guys.

Abolish Copyright

[Peaker]

In a time where millions and millions of people are exposed to the process of software making, why do we need to "provide an incentive" to create software? If one of these millions is only willing to create such software if guaranteed a copyright, then someone else would be willing to create it for the fame or love of programming - and probably do a better job.

Do we really want a society in which it is illegal to share and copy information, where people go to prison for giving software copies to their friends? Where it is illegal to learn from and understand the information we are exposed to, and share it with others?

Is the dubiously-required incentive worth all this?

I think it is clearly outragous - and the more arrests like this one, where obviously no life is at stake, nor is there a threat on the continuation of the creation of software will ultimately turn public oppinion against copyright.

Re:Abolish Copyright

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

I hereby declare that since you feel someone out there should make software out of the kindness of their hearts, YOU shall write all the software I need, in your spare time, and have it run reliably, and that it be available to me right now. Oh, and I expect 24/7 technical support.

Get to work, I need that software, my way of life depends on it! ... gee kinda sucks for you to know you won't be getting paid a penny to do it since you need no incentive.

but I sure love that you absolutely will have that software ready for me no matter how many months of 24/7 labour it requires of you, just to satisfy my needs. I have no doubt that your love of free programming for my profit, at your expense will ensure that I will get a superior, better made product!

Now stop reading this and get to work! ... I expect all the capitalist moderators to be laughing hard, modding me up as insightful, and all the communist hive-minded slave wannabe's like the author of the post above me to mod me down as a troll.

Re:Abolish Copyright

[Peaker]

Why I have no problem with the incentive or payment. If you want me to write software for you, sure you can pay me and give me an incentive.

However, after getting paid for writing the software, I will not place restrictions on actions of the rest of humanity with that piece of software.

Incentives are fine, paying for programming is fine. Placing restrictions on humanity to increase incentive is insane. Evidently, the vast majority's needs are already addressed by existing Free Software - no copyright-incentive required.

So your attempt to make Free Software look absurd is just silly - as all the software you need probably already exists as Free Software. If you're an non-typical user, then perhaps a bit is missing, but hardly anything that won't be written some time soon.

I have little problem with capitalism, and attempting to link copyright (a set of restrictions) with capitalism (free market) is just a sign of ignorant propaganda rather than rational thinking about copyright. A free market can exist just fine without those restrictions.

Re:Abolish Copyright

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

Actually the joke is on you ... for being suckered into spending your life trying to make user-unfriendly OSS crap do what you need when so much better is available. ... I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you actually do more than just write out your grocery list in text files.

Otherwise instead of responding like I had defiled your little sister, you'd have some understanding of my point.

Now, lets look ...

OSS CAD software ... crap because you must use what the industry uses or you will get no business or won't be able to interact with clients.

OSS GIS software ... better IF you can manage to find all the right libraries/components to actually make Grass, GEOS, PostGIS, MapServer do exactly what you need ... IF IF IF, its taken weeks for me thanks to the OSS bastards

For example, GEOS programmers not bothering to post that they've been working on their software, making it unusable, while not disabling the download of their now broken product. ... without a single word to tell anyone on the website. How many users ended up screwing their systems by upgrading to the code the developers knew was automatically being posted to their webpage broken!?!

Email! Forums! ya great if anyone would ever answer a question without holding back 90% of the information you need ... because using OSS, Linux in particular, you must feel years of pain before being accepted! you must scream in agony before anyone is willing to explain anything in simple easy to understand instructions!

Now go back to writing your grocery lists. Come back when you actually need to deal with what you are trying to talk about. ... and when you are willing to talk without hiding behind the 'anonymous' tag.

Fairlight?

[what the dumple is]

I thought all they did was make those scroll-y things. Didn't realise they were still cracking software. What about Triad? Northern Lights? OKS Import Divsion? Red Sector?

A waste of our tax money

[max born]

It seems difficult to imagine how these kinds of operations promote the progress of useful arts.

What about our freedom to fulfill a fundamental human desire to parse and disseminate knowledge and information?

From the DOJ anouncement:
The investigations focused on individuals and organizations, known as ?warez? release groups, that s pecialize in the Internet distribution of pirated materials. Release groups are the first-providers - t he original source for most of the pirated works traded or distributed online. Once a release group pre pares a stolen work for distribution, the material is distributed in minutes to secure, top-level warez servers and made available to a select clientele. From there, within a matter of hours, the pirated wo rks are further distributed throughout the world, ending up on public channels on IRC and peer-to-peer file sharing networks accessible to anyone with Internet access.

What they describe is a highly efficient and cost effective file distribution method. Society should be embracing this technology and maximizing its potential instead of criminalizing those who use it.

When information is truly free the world will change in ways we cannot possibly imagine.

Is piracy really good for UK?

[ThreeDayMonk]

I've been wondering recently whether it isn't actually good for the UK's economy to pirate some software.

Let's take Microsoft Windows XP for an example. This is a foreign product: there is to the best of my knowledge no "British English" version, and therefore no significant local development effort. Although there is some local profit and tax revenue to be made, it seems that the net result must be an outflow of cash from the UK to the US.

Is it therefore a patriotic duty to make unauthorised copies of Windows? I'd be interested if anyone with a more robust grasp of economics can elaborate.

Re:Is piracy really good for UK?

[Yartrebo]

You're right that it will help your country's balance of payments and strengthen your country.

Furthermore, the most efficient price point for software (or any other good with a marginal cost of $0) is exactly $0. The benefits of giving software away vs. charging are so strong that the government could stick its nose into software design, waste 3/4 of the money on government waste, and still outdo the current system. The music, movie, and TV industries are even worse.

Copyrights (along with patents and trade secrets) are one area where communism/socialism shines. The alternative of copyrights is just so horribly inefficient (2/3 of movie and game budgets going to ads, and factor in the market distortion from pricing far above marginal cost).

As far as jobs go, the ideal solution would be to either donate your savings to a free software group (which will be far more efficient at converting the money to software) to have the government tax it and spend it making free software. Either way people are employed.

Note: I have't touched the legal aspect, and I won't because that would be circular reasoning (using the existance of a law to support keeping that law).

RIAA Math

[red floyd]

Was that 100 copiers? Or was it 25 quad-speed copiers?

Re:3 people and 200 computers

[Renesis]

Funny thing was I did have my house raided for having too many computers once.

Someone saw me carrying loads of computers into my house and told the police I must have been stealing them. Next day 20 burly officers turn up at dawn and take all the PCs and Suns etc in the house.

Thing was - the computers we were carrying in were like old Sun 3/50s that the University was throwing out and said we could have :)

Re:Israel

[ThreeDayMonk]

I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to this (I have a low opinion of people who can't be bothered to employ the shift key or type even a three-letter word like you in full), but:

1. It's spelled Israel.
2. Nothing.
3. No, I'm not.

Apples and oranges

[Kjella]

>> As long as it costs $40 for a game or $100 for software there will always be people pirating.

> People will even pirate data worth 99 cents...

Furthermore, people will pirate if it is priced at $0.00, see for example some GPL violations.

The first two refer to the cost of acquiring a copy as opposed to pirating one. It's impossible to break the GPL by acquiring copies.Your example refers to pirating the copyright, but there is no offer in the GPL to acquire the copyright at any cost.

Imagine you went to a GPL project and offered to buy the copyright wholesale (which may theoretically be possible with some projects like Qt or MySQL). That is the real price they're pirating. Did you think the value of the leaked Windows source code is the price tag of one retail copy? Because that's what you just suggested.

Kjella

unofficial Try before you Buy lives on

[fullofangst]

Personally I'm unhappy some of the Fairlight gang have been busted, they've done some good releases in their time.

I warez games because sometimes the warez'd full game is available before the demo and I wanna know what its like.

If I like the game I buy it - after all, I have a job, and the cost of 2 or 3 (or more) games a month hardly registers on my statements.

I DON'T buy the games when they are shite, however, which is the main reason I continue to warez. Put simply, publishers such as Electronic Arts do not deserve my money. I have numerous problems with games I've purchased from them in the past and these bugs and glitches still aren't fixed at present. The only real reason I would buy something like Battlefield Vietnam, with all its bugs and issues, is if it was just about fun enough to justify playing it with a group of friends. Fuck playing on public servers where 85% of people are assholes.

Anyway, this operation gets the 'good guys' a bit of publicity, they get to spout off about how piracy benefits organised crime and terrorism, while at the same time nothing is done about a root cause - piss poor quality control and customer support.

Fairlight?

[arodland]

Those any of the same guys who cranked out C64/Amiga demos and rips back in the day?

Doesn't matter

[bonch]

That doesn't give people the right to pirate anything. A copyright holder's copyright doesn't magically transfer to the eMule network because someone out there thinks something is overpriced and decided to rip it for everybody.

An amusing sidenote--I find it funny people make wisecracks and justifications whenever an MP3 or warez copyright infringement article comes up, but get all up in arms when a company violates the copyright of the GPL. Seems a bit obnoxious and one-sided, but hey, this isn't Slashdot circa 1997 when it was just cool tech news and not a haven for piracy apologists...

OS licenses

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there's is only one way I can think that stopping piracy can bring more profit for the software companies: stopping OS piracy. And, as someone alreayd said, it would be good for Linux / Open Source.

At least here in my country, Brazil, people often buy custom PC's. They go and shop for all the boards, disks and everything and assemble the computer. There are a lot of guys who make their living assembling computers for their customers. These guys often install pirated copies of Windows on these machines.

There's also a huge market for pirated software here. You can buy it on the streets of any big city. So, when we think about buying a computer, the OS cost is never an issue cause you can get it from a friend or pay 3-4 USD for a copy of Windows XP.

If the law was enforced, you'd have to buy a license for the OS or use a free alternative. These "independent computer dealers" would not pirate and the software companies would have some profit.

For other stuff like Photoshop or Office, it wouldn't bring any more profit for the software companies. You can always live without an app, but an OS is totally necessary.

But... Also already said, software piracy is unstoppable.

Slashdot

[bonch]

With the way Slashdot sometimes posts articles talking about some company possibly violating the copyright of the GPL in some random situation, you'd think Osama Bin Laden was the CEO for every company in the business world.

But I guess copyrights are supposed to be enforced only when it comes to something Slashdot tells you is Good(tm). Not when something is Bad(tm), like actually PAYING for shit.

STOP with this moronic argument

[bonch]

This is the 20th time I've seen this mentioned (and about the same amount of times it's been modded up.)

1.) It's not like this is taking up 100% of the FBI. This is being handled by the computer crimes division--the other 98% of the organization is doing whatever else they do. Give it a rest.

2.) Surprise, surprise--all laws are enforced. It's the same reason the policeman who pulls you over for running a stop sign "could be out hunting criminals that actually hurt people." I guess putting people out of work by stealing their product isn't hurting people (yes, it is theft).

3.) I bet you're one of the first to be up in arms when Slashdot posts about a company violating the copyright of the GPL. Suddenly the tune changes when it comes to warez and MP3s.

4.) And before anyone mentions it--just because you think something is "overpriced" still doesn't mean you suddenly get to pirate it. It's a distractive argument that has no relevance whatsoever. If it's too expensive, don't bother! Look for a cheap alternative or an OSS clone of the same functionality.

I think you're simply a guy who's gotten used to the convenience of downloading everything you could want, and now you're mad the government is finally taking away the free ride. What do you think the inevitable result of all this is? When Internet2 becomes the standard and you can download everything in less than a minute, why would anybody want to pay for something that's "wink-wink-nudge it's wrong but everybody does it" illegal?

Will John Carmack appreciate everyone "sampling" the "free advertising" of Doom 3 on eMule when it comes out two weeks before hitting retail? They always do nowadays. Why do you think PC sales are dying and companies are going to console where it's harder to pirate?

Sigh.

What are you talking about?

[John Starks]

What? Do you have any idea how economics works? Look, you calculate the relative expected cost and expected value of stuff when you make economic decisions. Piracy's cost is not $0, of course, but some larger value due to the risk of being caught and the inconvenience of downloading. Furthermore, you don't get the added value of support, printed manuals (well not these days), etc.

So piracy really is competition to the real product. Let's say I decide that pirating Photoshop has a "cost" of $200 due to the relatively low probability of being caught (of course, there are big fines, etc. if I do get caught, so $200 might not be unreasonable). Now let's say Photoshop retail costs $700. If I am rational, I will download Photoshop rather than buy. So if Adobe wants me to stop pirating, they should lower the cost for Photoshop or attempt to raise the cost of piracy by increasing fines and cracking down on copyright infringement.

Of course, if I'm in Adobe's target market, the cost for piracy is much greater; my business could tank, I have employees that might snitch, etc. So maybe it would "cost" me $2000 per copy. Clearly I am better off with Photoshop retail.

Interestingly enough, with this analysis we might come to the conclusion that piracy actually helps consumers. We end up with lower prices since software makers no longer have monopoly power over their individual products. If Adobe suddenly raised the price for Photoshop to $3000 and piracy was not an option, many people would be forced to pay the new price. But Adobe knows that even businesses would begin to pirate if they raised the price high enough.

None of this is relevant

[bonch]

Really, none of this has to do with the article.

Rape, three years? Piracy, four? All that says is that rape conviction times are too low. Irrelevant to this article.

I know apologists are trying to spin it into piracy convictions being too long, though...but if one isn't a software pirate, why should you care anyway? Oh, right--this place has become a haven for piracy backers! :P

Because

[bonch]

Piracy is a real crime.

Are you saying it's not? Many here are implying as much...but most people here are college students and unemployed who don't write software for a living. So no wonder.

You don't think it sends a message?

[bonch]

Barring the fact that this is just the beginning, you don't think it sends a message that the law is being enforced?

Why wouldn't you want the law enforced? You don't think software writers also pay taxes? You don't think they want their rights enforced?

Re:You don't think it sends a message?

[CaptIronfist]

These are the usual questions / answers used by the companies in order to trigger such operations. The message sent by the media is indeed that they are enforcing the law. I do think that the law should be enforced, but if enforcing means spending more money than what you truly recover, it means some lobbyist is lying. BTW this is not the beginning, these busts occur every 2-3 years with very little long term effects.

Their rights? Where in hell did you get that it is the software writers' which are being infringed upon? You are dead wrong, most copyrights on games are owned by corporation, NOT software writers. WE own nothing down the line. I AM a software writer and my rights have not been enforced by this ridiculous operation, thank you.

My salary is being protected you say? BULLSHIT it is. Gaming companies are so accustomed to lose a fraction of sales to warez that you can bet they usually plan their finances with this in mind. You think that my salary will suddenly go up because of operation like this?

In which world do you live in?

WOW, Belfast gets on the map...

[me101]

Never knew that the place was such a thriving pirate haven... ;)

Hilarious

[bonch]

Your attempt to glorify the pirate culture notwithstanding ("0day ftz d00d" sounds so heroic, doesn't it?), laws exist and they must be enforced. It is not legal, or moral, to pirate the fruits of someone else's labor just because you've justified it as "human nature that can't be removed." Should we stop enforcing traffic laws since so many people are caught speeding, since hurrying somewhere is a part of human nature that can't be removed?

Sorry, but some people should come to grips with their human natures and stop hurting others by stealing their works.

Microsoft will put an end to this...

[Natchswing]

Microsoft will have to step in and stop these arrests. Windows wouldn't be as widespread as it is if it wasn't free for most of the people who use it.

I'm sure most of the software I use would be different if I actually had to pay for it.

Uh...

[bonch]

It's not creating any wealth in fact its reducing wealth because now people have to waste money on this software that would have been spent on something else.

Gee whiz, you're right, we shouldn't have to pay for software, so that we can spend our money somewhere else.

John Carmack and all commercial software writers everywhere will love you for not paying him for his work. After all, the best way to improve an economy is to not pay its workers.

Piracy is Piracy, agreed... but...

[tcc]

There's a serious gap between technology, warez, and executives in big compagnies. I'll go on this a bit lower.

Also, if they are doing this to "save an industry that has serious money loss due to piracy", I don't like the comparison, but to put it in their perspective; when you bust a drug dealer, you just open a market for the others, when you bust a drug producer, you just clear the way for another to outsource his production. So this logic is a bit flawed. In my perspective, piracy in itself isn't the bad thing. In fact, a lot of people here probably got hold of a software because it was available cracked, and then they went in a company and made a license bought.

Going after those people won't change a thing, disrupt, maybe, change? probably not. What should be done seriously and ressources invested way more into is to hunt down and even close down (to name an example I am very familiar with) Multimedia companies producing video games/movies/web sites that run 95% off pirated software (and the 5% legit being the machines shipped with windows on it). Some of those companies are operating in over 8 digits revenues and CAN afford the license buying, even if it wouldn't be all in one shot, they could at least show sign of good faith and shell out on a regular basis on a budget.

Joe Pimple at home doesn't kill an industry, he learns a software/tool (thinking stuff like maya/xsi/autocad/etc) that he can't afford (well until recently, now most company got an educational discount or free version, i'll get to this). Those 7-8+ digits small and medium companies *ARE* the ones actually STEALING ACTUAL revenues from software manufacturer.

Yes there's the BSA... but a lot of you probably know a lot of companies that never got checked or heard about a friend working at a place that is running totally not legit. Why the heck does joe pimple gets his life fried while others are actually making way more money and are way more morally wrong than joe? Ressources like this should be helping organization like the BSA, and the BSA should be less picky on companies trying to balance their budget while trying to reach 100% legitimacy. Of course those 95% illegal companies are creating jobs, but again, that logic is wrong since they are "killing an industry" with high-tech jobs... (and most of those multimedia companies have crappy underpaid/overworked conditions where only the owners are getting filthy rich).

That's my rant. Next is the distribution channels and the fact that we're in 2004. For god's sake, why can't we just buy GTA Vice city for 20$ and leech it off a server instead of paying 40$ for a printed box, media, distribution channel, and retailer profit? Maybe *THAT* would help prevent piracy. I know for sure that I'd be jumping back in the gaming world if it wasn't so freakingly expensive to play a game. Last games I bought that were a good investment were quake 3+ team arena, and mech warrior 3. Next time I'll pay more than 40$ for a game it better grabs my attention and my addiction as bad as quake did, else it's just not worth more than 20$, period. Don't give me that "it costs to create and budget" thing, logic here is I didn't buy it because it's overpriced, I didn't pirate it, I tried a demo if it was available, found I had a bill to pay and didn't want to shell out that 40-60$. so they didn't "lose to piracy" they simply "lost because they can't adapt to what a lot of people have been asking for years and should be available in 2004". They lost a sale. Period. The price difference isn't profit loss, it's all that extra non-needed layers added to reach people that could go direct (you could have both, then you'd get the best of both world). Took too long for apple to come out with iTunes, so I guess we won't see a movie nor a game distribution channel based on this before quite some time and the dinosaurs running things will still hide behind the law to try and fix things, and unfortunately for them and also for us, it will damage more than help. People wi

Re:Piracy is Piracy, agreed... but...

[Fuzzums]

"There's a serious gap between technology, warez, and executives in big compagnies."

I think you really have no idea of the scale these groups are operating at. It's a multinational organisation with branches in UK, the U.S., Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, the Netherlands, Singapore and Sweden.

Is may be a volunteer organisation, but it's operating quite professionally (200 machines in worldwide network)

I agree this is different when compared to, let's say, Enron or Ahold, but by no means you can say this is innocent.

Un...HUH?

[bonch]

The system is a hypocrit.

Why, because there were some demo coders who got involved in the warez scene, that means it's somehow hypocritical to stop piracy of software? What idiots modded this up to +5?

What's hypocritical is bitching about GPL copyright violations then suddenly getting all passive about copyright enforcement of commercial apps. This freeloader mentality is sickening.

Our Country is not important enough

[SmartyPants]

Australia is not 373t3 enough to have warez people?
sob..
and here I was about to go and saw how technologically advanced we are

Re:Yes, it's always bad

[LordK3nn3th]

Reviews? Oh, please, reviews are mostly worthless on games, because people have different tastes. There is a world of difference between reviews and and actually playing the game.

I never said piracy did more good than harm, although you assumed that because you're attempting to discredit me-- and very poorly, too.

When NWN first came out, I didn't know ANYTHING ABOUT IT. But I downloaded it because I've heard a little bit about it, played it, decided it was worth buying, and bought it.

I played Black and White and decided NOT to buy it the same way.

Also, I'm interested in how you got the "99%" number. Did you pull that out of your ass? Yes, you did.

Yes, I do sometimes pirate games that I would normally not buy. I simply won't buy them. Games like Battlefield 1942 I would buy (I did not pirate that game).

Also, my NWN cds are broken. How did I get new ones so I coul re-install? P2P, you whiner. How immoral of me to download working CDs for myself!

filthy criminals

[Anonymous Coward]

I love it how they make these people out to be filthy criminals who are out to hurt everyone. They fail to mention the intelligence needed to crack protections such as securom or the new starforce 3. They fail to mention how this drives programmers to learn more and protect their software. Many people gain the interests and skills needed for jobs from this sort of behavior.

As stated before, people will just rise up to replace these leaders. Quit trying to scare these people and go after the huge public which gets cracks and serials off of websites and p2p. Scare the public and it goes internal to where there is damage control. Obviously Operation Bucaneer achieved nothing and the same will come from these busts.

Re:filthy criminals

[crackedup]

well said, these latest dealings will impact the scene niltch, and the only loss that anyone will suffer is the tax payers hard earned money. These mighty corporations can ride on the back of the law and but quarters in the back of there piggy bank all they want, history has prooven it before and it will prevail again. All the FBI are doing is fighting a battle for the people paying them to scare the public into stopping there naughty online games..guess what.. We dont scare so easily! These fear tactics you use only make me want to rape you more.

Re:Yes, it's always bad

[LordK3nn3th]

Also, years ago I bought Doom. Can't find the CD anywhere, and it's probably stratched to hell if it is. Are you saying I shouldn't download Doom because I don't have the original media it came on?

Economics

[cdrguru]

The problem is that today the reality is the cost of software is high and the risk of being "caught" with an illegal copy is zero. Zero. No risk. Therefore, there is zero incentive to purchase anything that you have the knowledge to find on the Internet for free.

What does this leave for software sales?

• Beginners. People that are unaware of the vast stores of pirated software that exists out there.
• People without access to a high speed Internet connection.

Everyone else gets their software for free!

100 CD Burners?

[ShawnDoc]

Was it really 100 CD Burners, or is this like that RIAA raid where they used "cd burner equivelents?" (ie. 2 x 50X speed cd burners)

I agree with you. IP and police states must fall.

[Artemis3]

Most people here, coming from the countries that exploited the rest of the world, won't understand how their precious and intagible "intellectual property" can not be "protected".

But in the end, its a few rich ppl for whom the system "works", against the majority of people in opressed countries ordered to apply the worst of neo liberalism crap with an ever increasing and never ending "debt" with certain entities like the World Bank that simply makes us say, to hell with IP and "Copyrights".

What you see is a wealthy corporate minority trying like slaves the majority. And this minority control the power in certain key and wealthy countries.

In reality, it is more like 2 against 8, with 8 being the "pirates", "outcasts", or whatever you want to call people "not playing by the rules".

This "police state" system, can't survive for ever. At least, i'm very confident in my country we would politely show you the finger. We are officially against the WTO and the WIPO. In fact USA's current administration has already tried to incite coup'd etats using the CIA many times (yes, the media has hard proof evidence of this), and we are the 3rd OIL supplier (and one of the few remaining refining corporations) for the United States of America, go figure...

In the world the majority of the people is tired, and while they can keep their fantastic IP fiasco in the countries they do control, the time is going against them. Their whole model is ruined, it only works for the wealthy, yes, there are enough wealthy people to earn a living, but, suprise, suprise, for each wealthy boy eating McDonalds burgers 3 times a day, there are more than 8 that barely can eat once (if lucky) a ration of rice a day.

Also, it won't help the fools when they start to treat much worse a guy who infringed the copyrights of a bunch of foreign corporations than, say, your average raper/thief/murderer.

Do you think, in a world like this, that you can excert an maintain power with your armies forever? Yes, the Roman Empire falled, and so will the American one.

Humans are altruistic in nature. You will always feel the urge to share with your friends. The capitalist guys will tell you its the other way around, that we are greed and only "competition" drives the system. Oops, too bad this also mean violence, so lets have a BIG global army to "enforce" THE WORLDWIDE POLICY...

You can never prevent copies from happening. For a so called "pirate" arrested, 10 or 100 more will come. As long as the injustice in the system remains, so the rebels will rebel. If you ever get your step out of your police enforced lands into "the real world", you will see how we are _just fine_ with none of that stupid IP crap. Who knows, you might even understand how stupidly useless is to "combat piracy" once you start walking in one of our streets and see the floodings of cds and guys trying to sell you 1$ burned copies of crap that in the rich countries they sell for thousands of dollars. That bunch of zeros and ones this guy Gates in 1975 started crying and screaming we all should start treating like some "property" of sorts.

If you learned your way of earning your life using this model, too bad, so did the record labels, and scribes before the printer...

Sooner or later, you will realize you are the priviledged minority, and that you are living in a fiction.

As you can see, i am particulary fine with the vision of Richard Stallman, where a world without Copyrights would make the GPL obsolete.

I don't know what the current generation of "Artists, Actors and Programmers" who only learned the current model will do, but im sure they would have to develop some alternate way of doing business. Artists and Actors can pick live performances, Programmers can work to achieve projects, like building solutions or fixing existing ones, and not watch a stupid copier working. The world will keep going, its just and old dying model against a new one that is emerging. Besides, the consumist model that th

You hit the nail on the head!

[Prof. Pi]

Too many people around here think they're entitled to others' stuff for free, and because of that, they act like they're on the cutting edge of a new movement (witness all the sneering about selling CDs being an "outdated business models"). Most of their arguments are just rationalizations. It is bad if such people are associated with OSS in other peoples' eyes because it discredits OSS. It also makes it harder to raise legitimate complaints about things like DRM (e.g., DeCSS shutting OSS out) and the RIAA's tactics because John Q. Public, who hasn't studied the issue very much, will merely assume it's only more excuses from people who just want to steal.

Windose users...

[TwinGears]

Dumb windose users...

#$!%!&# Ashcroft

[Psykosys]

Not much of a surprise... first Asscroft came for the bongs, then he came for the porn...when he came for the warez there was no one left to speak up.

Options

[SkoZombie]

As an AC said, GIMP is quite good. I found it to be a little different to use, but after you get the hang of it all its not that bad and it does everything i ever did in photoshop. The whole working natively under linux is good too cause i hate using windows except for games. If you *must* use photoshop, and you're a student or teacher, you can get a much cheaper copy of it as an 'academic version'. Its fully featured but you're not allowed to use it commercially. They are two options which might help with avoiding BSA bastards who seem to lack common sense.

Re:Yes, it's always bad

[DisKurzion]

I would have never become a gamer if it wasn't for piracy. I would be totally out of the market. The grand total of ~$150 I've thrown towards game companies would be non-existant. I would probably be doing stupid stuff like watching tv.

Furthurmore:
1. Reviewers lie (esp movies, but games too)
2. There are not always demos
3. Demos usually suck in comparison to the full game, so they don't provide a valid basis for comparison
4. Piracy generates revenue due to name recognition (yes, it hurts the little guys, but I've noticed most of the little guys suck. And that's after playing legitimate demos)

Games I bought:
UT2004 (Demo off bit torrent)
Star Wars Galaxies (before trials came out...boy I regret this one)
Starcraft and Broodwar (pirated)
Neverwinter Nights and expansions (pirated)

Of those 4 games, only 2 of them currently reiside on my HD; Starcraft, and UT2004. UT2004 is new. Starcraft is the only one that withstood the test of time. And I probably wouldn't even have that if I hadn't pirated it in high school. And if I didn't copy the original broodwar ISO to my HD years ago, I would be SOL because I've gone through about 4 Broodwar discs between LANs, bad luck, and a crappy CD drives. And I'm tempted to crack UT2004, to preserve the DVD until I can make a legit backup.

Crack down on piracy? Sure. I'll be perfectly happy with my legit copy of Starcraft. I won't have to toss another dime towards game companies (which I intend to do once I make more than $5000/yr)

All that money spent go get these guys...

[cbreaker]

For software piracy?

Give me a break.

You have people stealing actual tangable goods, and you have people murdering and raping. Regularly.

Someone's priorities are seriously backwards.

Fairlight Farewell

[RotJ]

from flt-ff.nfo
It has been a good few years, but it is now time for Fairlight to close its doors for good. Many reasons have made us come to this judgement but we feel it is for the best. The scene is getting to be a dangerous place. Not only do we have to fear from the feds but also the unhonorable ones in the scene who lower themselves to narq the competition. Retiring on top seems to be the best decision for us. We want to thank all those throughout the years who have helped us in one way or another.

/Team FairLight

I guess they didn't follow their own advice. It seems Fairlight reactivated 2 months after that message, possibly under new management or because whatever FBI sweep was going on at the time was over.

Video Piracy...

[nametaken]

If they haven't started hitting Korea, they really haven't done shit, have they.

Here is better than a statistic

[javab0y]

Here is some proof:

Piracy--> DirecTV pirate to possibly get 30 years

Murderer--> Reckless skier homicide gets 90 days jail

Piracy--> Pirate to get 50 months prison

Drugs and Prostitution--> Darryl Strawberry get 18months for drugs and prostitution solicitation.

Priorities are in line, wouldn't you agree?

Re:GPL'ed software

[Dimensio]

What an odd and totally irrelevant reply. I was just being silly, especially since Fairlight is just a games piracy group. Honestly, I think that the approach taken here was the right one: go after the groups initiating the software piracy -- the distribution group -- rather than play whack-a-mole with the file sharers spreading it around (wherein you cut off one distribution node amongst thousands, if not tens of thousands).

International Private Enforcement

[icebike]

How come we can't find Osama, and we can't stop bombers in Madrid before the fact, but we can expend police resources on a worldwide scale to enforce "property rights".

Is this the police equivlent if the "Turkey Farm" where we use to send programmers that couldn't find the end of an IF statement with both hands? Surely we are not expending our best cops' minds on chaseing song pirates... Tell me its not so!!

Is any of the cost of this being charged back to the companies who's property they are "protecting"? I can't even call the fire department without getting a bill! Yet someone managed to obtain the services of an international organization of police forces to basically run a "stop loss" operation for an over priced product.

Re:You missed one

[Thomas Shaddack]

We need to be enforcing trivial violations because if we deported everyone who overstays their visa's expiration date, we would have deported enough hijackers to have caused problems with the plan.

Hey - it may work for other crimes too! If we'd arrest all the speeders and jaywalkers, we would inarguably get at least some future rapists and murderers out of the streets and into jail. But why to stay here? We can read the books and find out some obscure two laws that are mutually exclusive, and then just bust everyone. Then the crime rate would surely go down spectacularly.

Re:You missed one

[ScarKnee]

Speeders and jaywalkers don't generally get arrested unless they act like jerks to the officer, but the laws and ordinances regarding the offense are enforced. There are not enough police/courts in the world to catch/enforce punishment on each and every violation committed of each and every law. That said, when a law is broken and those in authority to enforce the law gain knowledge about the violation, that violation should be acted upon as the law allows. If a court date is necessary, then a jury of the accused's peers should be allowed to determine if the law should be enforced in that instance (U.S.A. rules).

Anyway...
People who overstay their visas know - or should know - that they stand the chance of being deported, and should be. Like your parent post said, we need to enforce the laws already on the books - we have immigration laws, let's enforce 'em. We didn't really need any new laws after 9/11 (except maybe allowing CIA/FBI to have better communication with one another), we just needed to enforce those already on the books.

I agree with your point about mutually exclusive laws on the books. Some pretty bright people we've got working for us in our State capitals and Washington, D.C.

BZZT Wrong!

[argoff]

... You should also realise that a lawful society depends on all laws being enforced ...

A lawfull society has little to do with how laws are enforced, but rather how people choose to respect those laws. .... and when you have unjust laws, just people will choose not to respect them, nor should they.

Restricting what pople copy for the sake of upholding entrenched monopolies, is not just in the slightest. And copying something can never be stealing or 'piracy' either - it's bullshit morality, backed up by unjust laws that people should have every right to expect not to be on the books, but if so, at least not be enforced.

Quotable Quotes

[neoThoth]

"The NHTCU quotes an IDC study that estimates that a 10 per cent reduction in UK piracy would contribute $17.5bn for the UK's GDP, indirectly create 40,000 jobs and generate $4.1bn in tax revenue. "
I'll bet this figure doesn't even come close to holding true. According to this logic the bust should show an immediate "burst" of revenue next quarter.

Re:No. He's The Number One Threat To The World.

[kubrick]

Oh, don't worry, they'll catch Osama when they need to (e.g. if the Shrub is going into late October 15 points behind).

Why does copyright exist?

[ingenuus]

Dear bonch,

I'm sure you've been reading slashdot for a while, so I'm wondering why you are equivocating "copyright infringement" and "stealing"? Theft requires depriving someone of something. Hence, "copyright infringement" could be theft, but it is not necessarily theft. Most importantly, beyond this possible aspect of "theft", I do not currently see how "copyright infringement" has any remaining immoral aspect. Perhaps you could explain it to me if you disagree.

The reason why many people's attitude toward the GPL is different from their attitude toward commercial licenses, while both rely upon copyright for their foundation, is because of the original intent of "copyright". Say it with me, "to promote the progress of science and useful arts". This is often viewed as the "public domain" -- i.e. the sum of knowledge that can be used and shared openly and freely by all. Logically, what other reason could there be for creating copyright than benefiting all of society?

While the GPL does restrict sharing in that it requires that the source accompany all binary code, its obvious and encompassing purpose is to enforce a freely shareable quasi-"public domain", which is becoming more and more necessary in this day and age where copyrights do not expire and legally enforceable restrictions upon modification are commonplace. Hence, in a very real sense, the GPL builds and protects the public domain (the intent of copyright), while commercial licenses starve the public domain (allowed by current copyright law).

i.e. the GPL is helping to account for the failure of the modern copyright system to feed the public domain, ironically, by using that very same copyright system. Hence, copyleft to balance copyright.

e.g. If software copyrights expired after several years and, as a result, the source code was added to the public domain, I don't think there would be as much use for the GPL (except to effectively eliminate usage in commercial software).

Copyright can be very useful, but it is important not to lose sight of the fact that it is an artificial construct which restricts everyone's freedoms for a purpose. If that purpose is not being met, perhaps "copyright" should be reconsidered?

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[SuiteSisterMary]

Theft requires depriving someone of something.

Yes, but not necessarily something tangible.

You are being offered something in exchange for something. You are taking the something, without giving the something in exchange. That's wrong. Maybe we need a new word/term for it, but it's not right.

'Oh, well, I wouldn't buy it, so it's not like they're losing money.' Maybe so, but nevertheless, you're still getting their product without their consent.

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[pluvia]

You are being offered something in exchange for something. You are taking the something, without giving the something in exchange.

Not quite. I make the exchange, but then I own it.

Maybe we need a new word/term for it, but it's not right.

How about "copyright infringement"?

'Oh, well, I wouldn't buy it, so it's not like they're losing money.' Maybe so, but nevertheless, you're still getting their product without their consent.

Why should my sharing of something I bought require their consent? In the case you site, the author would observe no negative effect from it. So, in what sense is the author "deprived"?

The answer is that deprivation is based upon expectation, which in this case is copyright law. Of course, simply going against expectation (or even an unfair contract in some cases) is not necessarily theft or immoral.

So then the natural next question is, why does copyright exist? I put forth that it exists for the good of society, and not to protect any "innate rights" of an author to his work after dissemination.

Hence, the "wrongness" of unauthorized copying comes from the proxy legal contract between an author and the people (other authors) that is copyright. If authors did not expect to control each copy of their work, they would not be deprived (cf. a patron / service economy).

Today, the DMCA effectively gives the author the right to control any modification of their product -- you are not allowed to change it. Many people think that this is unfair, but, in point of fact, they would be depriving the author of money if they modified the product themselves rather than purchasing the author's own modified version. What gives you the right to modify someone else's work? The expectation has been established.

Copyright was once just an experiment in treating plentiful goods as scarce goods in order to promote progress in the useful arts and sciences. You probably know how copyright started by restricting book publishers, but now everyone's freedoms must be abridged in order to accomodate copy-right and alter-right.

But what if copyright isn't the best way to accomplish this goal of progress? Or, what if copyright is the best way, but its current implementation is poor or even harmful to progress? How many creations are lost because of the current copyright? (e.g. abandon-ware, potential derivatives, etc).

So the morality of abiding by the expectations of copyright becomes complex if we deem that its terms are not fair. Copying? Modifying? At what point should the author lose artificial control of his disseminated work? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? 50 years? Does it somehow become more moral to copy or modify as time goes on?

Yesterday it was copyright, and it took a while for people to accept the idea that it is "wrong" to copy and share certain things that they hear or see or own. Today it is modification and "fair use" which became effectively illegal, because supplying consumer demand for modifications should be at the sole discretion of the original author (nay, copyright holder). It is the author's work. Is it the author's right? If not, why shouldn't the author have this right to his own creation?

Honestly, if implemented properly, I think copyright can greatly help in maximizing progress -- especially if the work (including the source code) must be released upon a reasonable expiration. As it stands, however, I'm not sure the current system is better at promoting progress than having no copyright.

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[SuiteSisterMary]

Yes, but what does this have to do with the primary concept of 'person X is trying to sell this song for this amount of money. Therefore, getting a full, perfect, 'retail' copy of that song, without giving person X money, is depriving person X of a sale?'

Doctrine of first sale does state that once you purchase a thing, you can do what you want with that thing, more or less. But unlike a digital copy of a song, or a computer game, giving your buddy that book you're finished with results in you being bookless. A subtle point, but an important one.

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[pluvia]

Therefore, getting a full, perfect, 'retail' copy of that song, without giving person X money, is depriving person X of a sale?'

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. In our current legal situation, with the extant expectations of copyright, I agree with you that it is wrong (at some moral level) to deprive someone of a sale that they otherwise would have had. But I thought your original argument was that it was morally "wrong" to copy/share it even if it would not deprive the copyright holder of a sale.

My main point is that the perceived "wrongness" or deprivation in this case comes from the expectations established by copyright which might not be fair, nor serve the purpose for which it was intended.

Doctrine of first sale does state that once you purchase a thing, you can do what you want with that thing, more or less.

It's the "more or less" that I am questioning (actually, just the "less"). How should the "less" be determined? Why must it be "less"? Why do we have copyright that reduces our rights? Let us get back to the reason for it, and ask ourselves if the right to copy is really an innate moral right of authors?

But unlike a digital copy of a song, or a computer game, giving your buddy that book you're finished with results in you being bookless. A subtle point, but an important one.

I agree, it is the key difference between scarce and plentiful items. How about if we parallelize usage? We both read the book at the same time, perhaps by projecting the pages onto a big screen? Or by oration? How about recording that oration? What if everyone agrees to use a program in parallel, but then not use it in the future to serially account for the time it was used in parallel?

I can share my "idea" with you, but once you have it, it is yours to shape and change and share. The only question of morality is if we make an agreement that I will not do certain things based upon that idea (e.g. share it). Copyright currently makes that agreement in proxy for all people for a specific purpose. If that purpose isn't being achieved or the contract is actually unfair, then copyright should be changed.

Subsequently, it becomes morally complex to abide by an unfair contract made in proxy. IMHO, the laws should be changed, not to eliminate copyright, but to better achieve its purpose.

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[SuiteSisterMary]

Agreed, in principle. The problem stems from the fact that current copyright/IP law is based on property law, which is based, in turn, on real estate law.

A piece of land can be owned, ultimately, by one person. (Yes, 'person' in this case might be a collective, corporation, yadda yadda.) That person can allocate the land as he sees fit, but when you get right down to it, that land can only be used or given exclusively. You can't build a house on a plot, and farm that same land.

Next, you have property. Your book example is a good one; is it theft if I loan a buddy my copy of Starship Troopers? Read it aloud to him? Let him read it over my shoulder? Generally, common sense rules here; my buddy can listen to a CD I'm playing in my living room; broadcasting it at a concert, however, is verboten.

What of a digital music file, though? If I have a DRM'd copy, and I relicense it to a buddy, removing my own access, it's like selling him a CD. Handing him an analog copy, even, isn't so bad; it's not a perfect copy, and any copies it produces will be degraded. But perfect digital copies? In theory, the artist will, ultimately, sell one copy, and the rest will be copies of copies.

One needs, however, to have the option of selling, in some way, the fruits of their labour. Saying that one shouldn't be able to sell their creative works for money is also saying one shouldn't be able to sell their creative works for the satisfaction of creation, and for the fruits of other people's derivations of said work. In other words, if I can't sell my music, and prosecute people who copy it, you can't GPL your code, and prosecute people who mod it without distributing changes.

Then, you get into metaproblems; is it wrong of me to copy a CD available only in Japan, when I have no reasonable way of purchasing it? Is it wrong of me to copy material which is no longer available for sale? Is it wrong of me to copy material which is kept artifically out of the market (such as Disney putting it's titles on ten year hiatus)?

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[pluvia]

I agree with your analysis (stemming from property law) and most of the cases you pose are considered by many to be "grey areas", so the question becomes, what principle or criteria should we use to draw the line between what is right and what is wrong?

Generally, common sense rules here; my buddy can listen to a CD I'm playing in my living room; broadcasting it at a concert, however, is verboten.

What if by broadcasting it at a concert, more people end up buying the CD for their own use? In fact, the benefits of such broadcasting is the reason behind radio payola. What's more is that I can legally record the radio and play it back whenever I want. This practice hasn't seemed to hindered the creation of music.

In theory, the artist will, ultimately, sell one copy, and the rest will be copies of copies.

That particular theory is based upon the premise that given a choice, no one sees the benefit of rewarding an author for his work or for future potential creations. While certain aspects of our culture promotes this assumption, other aspects, such as tipping or donation, do not. As with certain musicians and waiters, the expectation simply must be established and accepted by society.

One needs, however, to have the option of selling, in some way, the fruits of their labour. Saying that one shouldn't be able to sell their creative works for money is also saying one shouldn't be able to sell their creative works for the satisfaction of creation, and for the fruits of other people's derivations of said work.

I don't quite follow. You could still sell your work if copyright didn't exist, and the satisfaction of creation by definition exists independently from money. Whether many people would pay your prices is what is in question, but there is no guarantee even with copyright that people will buy your creative works. Without copyrights, certain categories of derivatives might even be more plentiful.

In other words, if I can't sell my music, and prosecute people who copy it, you can't GPL your code, and prosecute people who mod it without distributing changes.

Very true. But would that be bad? If so, then why would that be bad?

The history of art and music and the modern Open-Source movement illustrates that people are willing to create without any direct monetary compensation for their creations. They do this as a hobby or they are paid for their time. In fact, as I see it, the entire programming industry is currently being slowly transformed into a service industry by OSS.

A world without copyright is certainly not immoral. In fact, in some sense, it provides more liberty and perhaps even more potential for derivation. So why would we want copyright?

The answer is that progress in the useful arts and sciences has generally been deemed to be good and desirable. There is somehow a loss to society if we do not promote and, ideally, maximize that progress. Copyrights and patents are an attempt to do just that -- they are supposed to encourage creation and, in fact, sharing.

Then, you get into metaproblems; is it wrong of me to copy a CD available only in Japan, when I have no reasonable way of purchasing it? Is it wrong of me to copy material which is no longer available for sale? Is it wrong of me to copy material which is kept artifically out of the market (such as Disney putting it's titles on ten year hiatus)?

Exactly. If it were the moral right of the author to control any copying of his creations, then the answer would be obvious -- never copy and share without permission; he deserves any money that could ever possibly be gleaned from his creation.

This is precisely why it is so important to have the right perspective when analyzing copyright issues. When we do, these problems often melt away in an entirely different direction.

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[SuiteSisterMary]

What if by broadcasting it at a concert, more people end up buying the CD for their own use? In fact, the benefits of such broadcasting is the reason behind radio payola.

Immaterial; it's their choice to make, they being the copyright holders. Yes, it might be in their best interests to allow end-consumers to do such advertising for them....

That particular theory is based upon the premise that given a choice, no one sees the benefit of rewarding an author for his work or for future potential creations.

No, that particular theory is based on the premise that the average human being, especially, forgive me, Americans, generally prefers, and often is interested, if not indoctrinated towards, only instant gratification, and not long-term benefit. Cynical, yet amply demonstrated.

I don't quite follow. You could still sell your work if copyright didn't exist, and the satisfaction of creation by definition exists independently from money. Whether many people would pay your prices is what is in question, but there is no guarantee even with copyright that people will buy your creative works. Without copyrights, certain categories of derivatives might even be more plentiful.

Sorry, I'll phrase differently. Every argument on /. and other fora advocating the rights to copy digital media, such as 'I wouldn't buy it anyway' and 'they charge too much' and 'I only want one song, I could copy it off of the radio' can be easily reworded to apply to GPL'd material. 'I'm not going to distribute changes anyway, so the GPL doesn't apply to me' or 'they should have just released it under the BSD license' or 'I bought it on a CD, and the outside box didn't say anything about this GPL thing, so I own the source code outright; Doctrine of First Sale and all that.'

The history of art and music and the modern Open-Source movement illustrates that people are willing to create without any direct monetary compensation for their creations.

You seem to be concentrating on monetary compensation; take the word 'monetary' out of the conversation. People are offering their works for compensation. That compensation might be as etherial as the warm fuzzy glow of having somebody say 'dude, that rocks!' or as cold and calculating as getting 85% mindshare for your brand name. There is no difference; people who create, *and want compensation* should be entitled to that compensation. There is no difference between offering for cash, or offering for the exchange of modifications made.

If it were the moral right of the author to control any copying of his creations, then the answer would be obvious -- never copy and share without permission; he deserves any money that could ever possibly be gleaned from his creation.

To copy his creations? To sell his creations? To derive inspiration from his creations? To reproduce his creations? To mimic his creations? So many possibilities.

Ultimately, though, it needs to be up to the creator. If Britney's record label doesn't want her fans swapping CDs; fine; it would be far more effective of them to protest or boycott than to break the law. Short term gain, however.

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[pluvia]

Immaterial; it's their choice to make, they being the copyright holders. Yes, it might be in their best interests to allow end-consumers to do such advertising for them....

Previously, I thought you were arguing that (e.g. in some cases of non-sale) there are times when people are justified in breaking copyright. I thought you also indicated that making copies for yourself or modifying it are reasonable (which also limits copyright).

Now you seem to argue that whether it helps the copyright holder or not is immaterial, only the copyright holder has the moral right to copy.

My question is, if there should be some limitation upon an author's power of copyright, how should that limitation be determined? By what principle?

I think it should be the principle for which copyright was created in the first place. The principles of "fair use" and "limited time" come from somewhere... in a very real sense, they are not infringements upon an author's rights, but rather, the author's copyrights are a limited infringement upon the public's rights, and for a very good reason.

No, that particular theory is based on the premise that the average human being, especially, forgive me, Americans, generally prefers, and often is interested, if not indoctrinated towards, only instant gratification, and not long-term benefit. Cynical, yet amply demonstrated.

Sure, amply demonstrated in those areas where there is an expectation of greed (e.g. most of the capitalistic business world). However, everyone I know tips at restaurants and for certain other services where it is socially expected... how do you explain this?

'I'm not going to distribute changes anyway, so the GPL doesn't apply to me'

Minor FYI: as you indicated, there are ways to break the GPL, but this is not one of them. The GPL only restricts distribution (primarily requiring source code and the same license), not usage. IMHO, the GPL was largely created because modern copyright law was effectively starving the public domain. i.e. the GPL and copyright itself were largely created for a similar purpose, namely to encourage progress and sharing.

There is no difference; people who create, *and want compensation* should be entitled to that compensation.

"should be entitled"? Only by the power of copyright law are they entitled to that compensation (which is control over copying), and it is precisely the bounds of copyright that I am debating. To debate copyright law by appealing to the ethics established under the current copyright law itself is circular logic. So, what are the fundamental principles upon which we should debate copyright law?

Ultimately, though, it needs to be up to the creator. If Britney's record label doesn't want her fans swapping CDs; fine; it would be far more effective of them to protest or boycott than to break the law. Short term gain, however.

You're right, more could be gained in the long term. Of course, coordinating political or economic action is nigh-infinitely more difficult than enforcing your own morality in your own life. Even for obviously good causes it is difficult to organize political or economic action, much less for causes which are complex and have both good and bad aspects (such as copyright).

Allow me to apologize. I fear that some of my statements (particularly in my previous posts) may have been confusing as they were intended to provoke you to think about the morality and reason behind copyright -- that, before copyright, it was moral to copy. These are the extreme statements which may seem to advocate no copyright, which I do not think is best.

Let me summarize my position by clearly stating that I think the idea of copyright is good. But, the implementation of this system must follow a guiding principle, and that principle is not that an author innately owns his dissem

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[SuiteSisterMary]

Aye, it's a big muddle, isn't it?

My own stance mirrors yours; copyright should exist, but should include fair use, VERY limited terms, and automatic release, with the burden on the copyright holder *when they release* their work; i.e. DVDs must be viewable in 100 years or whatever as of NOW. Weather this includes giving a copy of the CSS encryption to a Federal agency to hold onto, and make public when the time comes, or what, I leave to other people to figure out.

That having been said, these modifications to copyright haven't been made yet. Therefore, we fall back to the copyright laws we currently have, which state that the MPAA can release their DVDs encrypted, and require you to use a licensed player to decrypt them.

The idea of ephemeral, digital creations is too new, and too novel, for society to have a firm idea of what to do with them. Property is easy; this land is my land, that land is your land, so stay on your own side of the fence. Easily copied art is easy; a Picasso is special because it's a Picasso; not because of the way it looks. Copies are intrinsically lesser than the original.

Re:Why does copyright exist?

[pluvia]

I think we are in agreement on what copyright should be, though I'm not quite sure what you base your reasoning on... e.g. as I base mine on the principle of promoting "progress in science and the useful arts", which allows me to "take away" (or limit) the "rights" of the author because they were really not morally his to begin with (pre-copyright). I am logically guided by maximizing this principle alone.

As you indicate, the waters of morality are quite muddled today regarding copyright, particularly if we judge the current copyright laws to be unfair for the public.

Playback protection

[tyldis]

I own an iPod and thus I wish to have my music in MP3/AAC. The rips I find on the net are rarely satisfying and annoys me more often than they entertain me, so I want to rip the music myself.

If a CD I buy has some 'copy protection' (read 'playback protection') I will still buy it. However, I will crack the protection, rip it and then return it to the store and complain it is faulty and demand a cash refund since it was not working as expected.

I try to be legit, but they make it really hard for me.

Granted, the same issues are not valid when it comes to software, but the measures they take to prevent piracy [1] is bringing the value of the product down. If I have to buy a new CD each time it gets broken, they must lower the cost to do so.

[1] Their agenda is not all about piracy, though...

Bananas

[Anders]

The first two refer to the cost of acquiring a copy as opposed to pirating one.

All three of them refer to "pirating", i.e. "copying illegally", i.e. "going beyond what is allowed by the union of copyright law and whatever license is applicable".

Did you think the value of the leaked Windows source code is the price tag of one retail copy? Because that's what you just suggested.

No. I carefully said "price", not "value".

Forget the GPL example. The price tag of Sun Java is also $0.00, but you are required to download it yourself (or something like that). With such a license, people will still copy illegally since it is more convenient to borrow a CD than it is to download Java through a 28k modem.

Oh, thank you.

[M3tam0rpH]

The FBI, who in spite of recent Human Rights Reports that rank USA as first (#1!) in the world for homocide incidences, kept to their convictions to protect righteous corporations(afterall, dead people can't bribe politicians.) Recent reports indicate that the US murder rate has risen 1.1 percent since 2002, and rape has risen 4.0 percent. US also refused to relinquish its #1 rank in private ownership of guns, which helped them take a significantly lead in worldwide Gun-related crimes. According to US National Center for Health statistics 56.5 percent of americans who committed suicide used guns, involving over 16,586 people in 2003 alone. According to National Youth Gang Center there are 21,500 violent gangs operating in the United States as of 2002, with a combined membership of 731,000. The rise in gangs also provoked New York Police to impose a citywide state of emergency during the summer of 2003. Statistics released by the US Center for Disease Control and Prevention found that the number of people who have contracted AIDs has risen 2.2 percent to reach 42,136 over 2002. So just like USA was #1 in Hockey in 1980, they seemed to have kept that pace of being the Best at things in 2002-2004. So its no wonder that John Ashcroft felt it was necessary to spend more of the Governments budget on Operation Buccaneer and Fastlink than they do investigating murder and rape crimes on a yearly basis. He can't afford to lose out to other #1 countries like Haiti, or North Korea. So I applaud the Bush Administration for bravely going after non-violent Internet Pirates, and keeping America safe for us all. Now there is certainly no need to ever have to lock my door or car anymore. Who cares if you guys piss off terrorists enough to provoke them into attacking us. As long as I don't have to live in fear of my child accidentally watching a movie before its in theatres, I can goto sleep without worrying. I also proudly salute the Bush Administration, and the Fight for OIL. Without it our tanks wouldn't move to storm over other countries.

The only workable IP scheme

[Dust31]

If you have an idea that you want to own, don't tell ANYONE. Then, you and you alone own it. In other words, shut the f*ck up.

Because when you open that festering gob of yours to broadcast your idea to the world, the idea no longer belongs to you. Any law attempting to skirt this fact will be as long-term effective as a law that says pi is equal to 3 1/7. It just does not, nor will it ever, fit reality.

As I understand it, the idea behind intellectual property laws is that a person should enjoy the "fruits" of their intellectual labor. If that's so, under this way of thinking, then shouldn't a person ALSO be responsible for their "intellectual liabilities"? If a person can make money for their good ideas, then they should also have to pay, in real dollars, for their bad ones.

The world got along fine for thousands and thousands of years without IP laws. I saw one argument stating that IP laws were necessary because they assist the economy. Here's another equally stupid and equally arbitrary law that could be used to assist the economy: you must spend at least 98.5% of your post-tax dollars on goods and services; saving more than 1.5% of your income will land you in jail.

Maybe we need to rethink the idea of IP.

FLT Selling?

[Mikelikus]

I don't think this all adds up. FLT is a release group which means that they don't need more than shells, access to topsites and cracking skills.

They would never sell games nor they would need 100 cd copiers. It's part of the "code of honour".

You could argue that this is just what they say but a 18 year-old group (yes that's right) was one that actually MADE the rules and not one that just followed.

This is why I hate these articles. I'm positive that this doesn't have one single fact apart from the actual raid.

Historical note:

[Deemus]

Also of note, this is the second time they've been busted for the same thing. The last time was in the early 90s then The Humble Babe(old member of The Humble Guys) got poped with the sysop of BBS-A-Holic for using stolen credit cards to by software and hardware. They used to be called USA/FLT (fairlight).

Warez Traffic

[vinlud]

I live in one of the Dutch studentflats where some servers were confiscated. Since that afternoon our networktraffic dropped dramatically, possibly also because a lot of students shut down there own little ftp-server afraid of being caught.

Traffic statistics here

Re:YHBT. YHL. HAND.

[pluvia]

Thanks, I learned a few new acronyms.

"YHBT"
You're a glass is half empty kinda guy, aren'tcha? :-)

"YHL"
I have not yet begun to fight! ... though if he was trolling... hmmmm... I guess you're right... yup, I lost and now I'm replying to an AC who speaks in acronyms. :)

"HAND"
You have a nice day too. :o)