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"Missing Link" In Windows Emulation Unveiled?
ben_ writes "According to this article on inq7.net, a Philippines company called SpecOps has revealed their Project David, a middleware layer that solves the problem Wine has been working at for years and will "enable all major Microsoft Windows applications to run on the free and open source Linux OS".
Further (and more sceptical) analysis at Linux Electrons." I'm with Linux Electrons on this; as nice as it sounds, the information about David comes via Press Release which as we all know are founts of dependability *cough*.
It's only symbolic.
I mean if this is for real, this is a big deal towards getting Joe User & Bob WindowsPowerUser onto Linux. I can't wait to see it in action.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
They do a very good job of debunking it. Its Crap. Don't believe evrything you read.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Hopefully this isn't a result of the supposed 'leaked' code awhile back. If it was, and Microsoft finds out, it could set them back twice as far as they've come.
There is an interesting thread on wine-devel about this, basically we just don't know what its going on about:
4 /0578.html
http://www.winehq.com/hypermail/wine-devel/2004/0
stuff
or both?.
I can't navigate into any of these subsections: Project David Overview
David Technology
David Technology Validations
David Development Plan
from the overview page, however if one dives to the source and manually types the address for one of the later pages. the rest of the pages are full of nice stuff like 'WES', 'WACS' and shit like that.
oh and the product itself claims to be a perfect version of what wine tries to be(which can be installed by 'anyone' easily on a linux system, whatever they mean by that).
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
it reads kind of like spam, using a lot of strange buzzwords ("windows environment subsystem"??) and a bizarre, apocryphal account of linux and WINE.
realistically, they'll probably just charge so much for it that it dilutes the linux TCO advantage.
All jokes aside, BSODs are very very few and far between (certainly on the *nix scale) since 2k/XP was released. Before 2k/XP most people blammed microsoft when in reality it was buggy drivers. Now with the new driver model these instances of drivers crashing the kernel are rather rare. When a company claims to have found a "bug" which was a relativly well-known design decision they have lost most all credibility. This is either a pump-and-dump scheme, vaporware or an instance of code stealing.
will enable all major Microsoft Windows applications to run
Yeah, but who decides what the major applications are?
Let's go Hurricanes!!! 2006 Stanley Cup Champions!!!
Comments on the article website seem to suggest that this *may* be a re-engineer of the Win32 api based on the stolen win2k codebase.
The phillipines is not known for its strict adherence to interlectual properties laws.
Actually, would this even be illegal?
If the codebase was stolen in the US, looked at in the phillipines and a program written based on that looking, would the program be legal in the US or not?
And what about elsewhere in the world?
Official GOD FAQ.
Hello,
this announcement reminds me of waht Lindows told us back then. I mean 100% Windows compatibility and such. The linked article seems quite ridiculous to me.
I mean "while all those projects emulating windows inherit the windows specific problems like instability, out new implementation does not contain those, thus is stabler then windows".
This is just another WINE-ripoff combined with good PR. Don't believe a thing!
Philip
It's easy too make promises and say that "this is gonna revolutionize evrything" but these claims have been made before by many companies...when someone makes a claim with nothing to back it up it should be worthless until it is backed up...Microsoft has been doing this from they 1 and look at the quility of the software they provide...it would be nice to have compatibility ...i mean windows has great *nix compatibility with cygwin...we have wine thats a very nice peace of software in my opinion...thanks to them we can run key apps on a non windows platform...we shall see where this project goes but not before there is some solid backup of what they are claiming..
... but why would anyone WANT to run Windows on Linux?
The Erogenous Zone
"David is currently 25% completed with the Systems Design Phase of development."
... high on hyperbole with little to no substance.
If this works, great. Going through there website doesn't fill me with any confidence.
Very reminiscint of Infinium Labs [www.infiniumlabs.com]
One to watch, yes; but really, don't hold your breath.
Apparently, you don't even need to install it! What will they think of next...
the entire statement is "the release will be," "the product will be," "in development."
so basically someone identified a market and said "Hey, there's money to be made in reinventing the wine wheel. let's do it!"
"You worthless post!"
-Shakespeare, 2 Gentlemen of Verona, 1. 1. 147
If this is a silver bullet app, then why does it only work on 'major' apps???
Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
The story is such a joke, where do they get these reporters? They don't do the most elementary fact checking, just take whatever the one source tells them, put it in pyramid form and make sure they have a couple of money lines. It's such piss-poor work.
This thing is obviously a scam of some kind. It's not going to be an OS in a browser, they didn't correct MS design flaws while reverse-engineering the whole windows API, etc. IOW most of the article is wrong or insane. This may as well be about orgone boxes.
So now windows based programs can crash on *nix too. If you recreating the APIs so it can run then your recreating those same things that can cause it to crash. People need to be migrated to good progs running native in a good enviornment.
Evolution or ID?
As a native english speaking engineer who lives and works in Japan, I'd have to say that reading the website for SpecOps reads very much like it was written by an engineer for whom English is a second language.
... it's so often the case that when you do an analysis like Linux Electrons did on the wording of their claims, you rely on the english used to be exactly what the speaker meant. And engineers / technology people are spectacularly good at misusing technical words in second languages.
And one thing I've learnt the hard way again and again here is that usually it's not worth analyzing such text in such detail when this is the case. The reason is simple
Not making any comment on the technology itself, just that it's kinda misleading to treat such a piece of text so literally.
Servlet v2.4 container in a single 161KB jar file ? Try Winstone
What I'm curious about is what the cost of this product will be if it ever materializes. There was no mention of cost in the article, but unless it's free, it will be a hard sell.
More than enough BS
I looked at their site some time ago and it is very unprofessional (no big deal) with sections that say such and such goes here like they aren't ready for real time. There was not even contact information. Also, they mention that all the coding is being done by some university. So it sounds like they have no employees, they can't even create a decent site but they have the holy grail. I am very suspicious...
Release a completely free high quality Windows emulator. It worked for OS/2.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
This article has left several lingering questions in my head. First and foremost (while I may just be restating the obvious here), what _is_ David, what does is it do, and how does it work?
The summary states that David will "enable all major Microsoft Windows applications to run on the free and open source Linux OS" --- but isn't that already what Wine does? I mean, installing MS Office (what I would consider to be a "major Microsoft Windows application) really isn't too difficult --- all one has to do is install Wine, set it up, and run it on the installer executable. Then, considering everything has gone well, *boom* I've got it installed.
So what does David do exactly, and what problem does it attempt to solve?
I remember a german compan called Omega that was going to do the same with the MacOS. Bold claims that ended up being vapor. Here is a websie with some info on COS.
Zoid.com
HDTV TiVOs are being shipped as of a few days ago iirc
Can't wait to dumb my PC and game on my linux box, that will be the greatest day, I wish games like WC3 came in Linux ;)
photoplankton
I don't believe it, why don't they show ANYTHING at all, not even a movie of for instance MS Access running under KDE. Don't believe the hype Remember the big weapons arsenal of Saddam, same shit here, 3rd world people screaming for media attention.........
Whatever, I'm in the second group I listed & would love to be able to use Win32 programs fully on linux.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
What a surprise, now Microsoft can say the only way they are making this work is by utilising the stolen (leaked) source code from a while back. When the source code did not even give that much information on making things work. This way they can claim that they are being opressed by the evil open source movement, and label them as lawbreakers. This seems to be everyone's prediction come true "wonder how long it will take wine to be perfect?"
I hate sigs.
...my investment money?
I mean with a page like this I can trust them right?
You know, they DO have place holders. I guess it's better than all the fake links they have around the site.
Full text, without comments:
SpecOpS Labs is developing a Systems Level product called David . The primary purpose of David is to
provide a platform, which will serve as a viable alternative to the MS Windows Operating System.
Our first release of David, version 1.0, will be a Middleware program that will sit on top of the free and
open-source Linux operating system, and enable it to seamlessly run most Windows applications. Working in the
background, David will enable users to run their favorite programs with the look-and-feel they are familiar with.
*COMMENTED OUT*
The next generation will, in effect, incorporate the operating system into the web browser, virtually eliminating
the need for an operating system eventually, except to boot the computer and launch the browser.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
David will be configured to be made available for installation either through the internet or from a compact disk
or DVD. It may either be pre-installed by OEMs, or may be easily installed by consumers themselves in plug-and-play
fashion.
*COMMENTED OUT*
David will be distributed to consumers in five releases. See the Information Memorandum within the Investor
Relations section for detailed information on each scheduled release. The David V 1.0 architectural framework has
been validated, prototyped, and copyrighted and has entered the full design and development stage.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
Running Windows Applications on Linux. Most of the popular software applications such as Word,
Excel, Quicken and PageMaker are designed to run exclusively on the Windows OS;
that is, Windows applications cannot natively run on the Linux operating system.
However there are three alternative methods of running Windows applications on
the Linux OS. These three methods include:
*COMMENTED OUT*
the David Technology
Link describes the simulation of the Windows Environment
Subsystem. For a detailed explanation of the other 3 methods,
click on the Our Market
- Competitors section of this website.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
The main reason, besides less buggy drivers, is the fact that the company switched from having an OS (Win9x) that would let the applications and drivers have complete control when in use, to actually having the OS manage resources. Of course, it's not simple cut and paste dry like that, but you get the idea. Since running 2k/XP I have come across very very few BSODs, and most of them were the result of me overclocking my computer too much.
In any case, vapourware announcement sometimes preceded by some years the real Microsoft products, maybe their part of emulation includes that behaviour too.
The article criticizes the techniques that are mentioned in the press release without mentioning that press releases usually not only include exagerration of usefulness, but also embellish how things have been done. In other words, if features are mentioned in a press release, don't expect them in the actual product -- at least not how they were promised or not implemented exactly how they reported. Remember, software engineers don't write press releases (They don't tend to read them, either...).
I hate grammar Nazi's.
I know everyone does it, but it's always a jolt to see a product advertised with a stock photograph I've already seen. The picture of the woman displaying a "thumbs up" sign is used by a local copy shop (without the slingshot).
I Just read the article, and to be honest it doesnt seem to offer anything significantly different from what WINE offers (other than the removal of bug-level compatibility). Linux users have been able to use M$Office applications fine for some time now. Its a great publicity stunt for Linux (Wine is relatively unknown amongst non-linux users). Id have liked a bit more technical information about the system.
...
There doesnt seem to be any information as to whether this is an open source project or not. My suspicion is that it will be a non-free system.
Nick
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
It's another closed-source implementation of the WinAPI by a company I dont trust, only this one is much smaller, and with less resources.
That's AWESOME!
The web page says it all. The 'solution' is for "Linux" whereas wine will run on FreeBSD and all the various GNU/Linux forks.
When specopslabs gets a product that can run on BSD and GNU/Linux, then they have something. Until then, WINE works better, because at least it WORKS.
Change it to "Winspire" ASAP!
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
The only games I like are GTA 3 and Vice City. I can play those on a PlayStation 2. I don't need Windows for anything. I'd rather never have to look at anything having to do with that piece of crap OS ever again.
Trying to port legacy AIP's from Windows to Linux is a waste of time; especially if all you know about the API's is the external interfaces. I am sure MS's Programs use plenty of "Internal/Undocumented" features.... Since MS Based coding is moving to .NET does it not make since to support any software written in fully managed .NET code? That's where project Mono comes in. I think that when Linux runs .NET code transparently that will be when it becomes "Main Stream"...
I was talking about OSnews story last week, it seems they also picked up this article. Anyways their discussion was more mature than the average slashdot one so head on over and read theirs here.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
They have time to do what noone has effectively been able to do (make complete win32 emulation possible on open platforms) but they don't have time to make a simple webpage? Their home page says under construction.
I smell bullshit.
hrrm.
Agreed; it better be free.
If they charge for this super-wine or david or whatever it's going to be called, the cost will be hard to justify because the real thing will just be incrementally more expensive.
Wine or something similar represents a huge threat to Microsoft's business model. Wine + Linux + MS Office 97 would wipe out a significant chunk of their revenue. New computers would come outfitted with cheap or free copies of Linux + wine to eliminate the $50-$90 licensing fee for Windows, and businesses could continue to use their old Office licenses. If I were IBM, I'd be salivating right now; it's such a nice opportunity to annoy MS.
Actually, I wish IBM would pour a few million bucks into the Wine project or Codeweavers.com and give them the funding they need to make all those current apps out there work in Linux. Yeah, yeah, wine's already pretty good, but I'm just impatient!
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
Hey!
Everything I know about SCO I learnt from Press releases!
So I'll my $699 insurance policy will keep me safe when Darl comes around and makes you wipe Linux from your X-box!
(No, I am not being serious, but I understand that its Monday morning, so I figgered I'd include a disclaimer for those of us still asleep).
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
If the codebase was stolen in the US, looked at in the phillipines and a program written based on that looking, would the program be legal in the US or not?
Well, for one, looking at a stolen codebase is not in itself illegal. Copying it is, so whoever gave them a copy has committed a crime. But that's beside the point.
The question is: Is the program itself a derivative work?
By looking at the codebase, it does make it more difficult to claim this, but it doesn't automatically make it a derivative work either. In the same way as reading a book and then writing your own on the same issue does not automatically make it plagiarized.
Ok, so this issue notwithstanding, "legal in the US" is a strange term. Legal how?
Redistribution?
If it is an illegal derivative work, then they have no right to distribute it, and thus noone can have the right to redistribute it either. Redistribution is illegal.
To own and use?
Well, with the possible exception of breaking a Microsoft EULA (the enforcability of which is questionable), the mere possession of a plagiarized work is NOT illegal.
(Although a cunning lawyer may argument that using it could be, since by running a program you are indeed copying it (to memory). But I doubt that'll fly in the real world.)
As for the USA:s DMCA laws. This is clearly not a copyright-circumvention device. None of that applies here.
IANALBITSCH
(I am not a lawyer, but I've taken some courses, haha.)
If I understand what I'm reading correctly, they're in essence taking advantage of how NT/XP is designed.
As I have learned it, the NT Kernel is separate from the Win32 API. The Win32 system makes calls into the kernel to get system things done (like disk and screen I/O), but tracks all the Win32 stuff itself (like windows and message queues). Win32 is, in essence, just a 'personality' running on the NT core. Someone (Microsoft themselves, I think) is doing another personality module for the NT kernel that will let it run Unixy stuff too, at the same time as the Win32 stuff.
What WINE is doing, which is incredibly difficult, is rewriting the entire Win32 API so that existing programs will run under Unix. This has taken them many, many years, and it's fairly good now, but it's far from a complete solution, largely because it's so difficult.
It sounds like the David project will probably run the *existing* Win32 API (which is hard to replace), and write a new set of kernel routines to emulate the NT kernel. AFAIK, most of the work on NT is at the Win32 level, the kernel itself doesn't get that much work, because it's really solid and really stable. So they're not chasing a moving target in quite the same way.
Presumably, the separation between the Win32 personality and the NT kernel is drawn clearly enough that they can replace the kernel without breaking things too badly. At least, that would appear to be how they're thinking about it.
This would probably mean you'd need to install Windows under Linux, in order to get a proper Win32 personality. The net effect would be very much like the way that OS/2 used to run Windows 3.1. (remember 'a better Windows than Windows'? It was!)
I believe this could work. It would not, however, remove the need to own a copy of Windows, so its use would be more for the pragmatists ('we want it to work') than the idealists ('we want it to be free').
That should be sKeptical. Dammit, of all the blunders that are becomming common usage this one drives me insane. It's because I read it with only one consonant at the beginning - an S sound, so it sounds like something having to do with a tank full of crap.
This would dissasemble the x86 windows binaries, rewriting any low level OS library and hardware access code, emitting Linux compatible executable binaries. This could be done both Ahead Of Time, before execution, and Just In Time, during execution. Caching the resulting rewrite on disk would speed up execution a lot.
A neat trick if possible. However Soft Labs would have to reverse engineer a hell of a lot of Microsoft's OS to manage it.
True. But my 2000 and XP machines (at work) routinely have to be rebooted because they come to a crawl, or freeze. Is it the OS to blame, or the apps I am running? That is a rhetorical question - the cause of the reboot doesn't matter. This doesn't even count required reboots for software installs/patches, which are common. Just because there is no BSOD doesn't necessarily mean it is stable. Is XP more stable than Win98? Yes. Does it still have acceptable stability? Yes. Would I consider it to be a stable OS? Nope. If Windows was all I knew, I would probably say yes.
And not to be cliche, but my Linux machine at home, which I use on a daily basis, has been up for 79 days. I have had a few Xwindows crashes and freezes, but the OS is still running.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Noted.
I'm disappointed in the moderation of my post. It's a legitimate question that ties directly to the "missing link" aspect.
Mods like that encourage trolling.
Laws are for people with no friends.
english is NOT a second language in the philippines
the only problem here is your ignorance of the philippines
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
thats all and good, but I won't even consider switching my desktop to a Linux OS until David or something like it can emulate DirectX efficiently.
This sig was generated by a barrel of trained kittens for SeXy_Red (550409).
There WAS (is?) a link and details on the project plan. A little Google cache searching shows this. The direct link to http://www.specopslabs.com/david_development.htm still works, though it's not available from the home page (AFAICT).
Either way, the timeline breaks down like this (summary);
Phase 1 - 100% - Document theoretical model.
Phase 2 - 100% - Build business case.
Phase 3 - 10% - Produce architecture roadmap.
Phase 4 - 0% - Implement system design.
Phase 5 - 0% - Deployment and maintenance/updates.
This is a reasonable breakdown, though if Phase 4 is the coding stage, they have a boatload of work to do. Since most projects fail let alone products (more hostile environment), I would not be worried if I were Codeweavers, EMC (VMWare), ... let alone Microsoft.
Looks like they are attempting to get investment capital.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
americans are often accused of being ignorant of the rest of the world
/ rp.html
well the parent poster, and every one modding him up, are proving exactly that
ENGLISH IS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE PHILIPPINES!
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos
someone please mod the parent comment into oblivion, it showcases american ignorance, and apparently, even the ignorance of americans living in the far east!
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I think that IBM doesn't consider emulation a very realistic goal.
Remember, they tried this with OS/2.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
There's an Accout of a David demo here
Yes now I can install Norton AntiVirus on my mandrake box.
if ( ostype != "win" ) { LoadForever++; CallRandomException(); LockMouse(); exit; }
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
I reported this last week.
Just realise the reality of the situation..... There is no reality.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I still have winrar running through cx office as well as some other small programs because I'm used to them. If you're serious to changing to Linux, I'd strongly advise you to take a look at xandros business 2.0 since things work as they're supposed to and it comes with versions of cx office and plugin already installed. It's truly a drop-in replacement of Windows without the stupidly annoying philosophy of lindows. And the user forums are actually helpful. Yes, it costs 150$ but it's the best money you'll spend and it will actually save you a lot of time you'd be better off spending actually doing things...
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
Wine has been evolving steadily.
The Wine developers have succeeded in modularizing just about every aspect of their Windows API to the point where a whole other operating system (ReactOS) can use it!
Not to mention that there has also been some cross-pollination of Wine with Cygwin.
THOSE are the solutions to bet on, and not simply because they're older and more established but because they are open-source and have been audited by thousands, with some of the best minds on the planet on top of it!
How is ONE company going to match that without the same number of developers and expertise?
I remain sceptical, but I do wish them luck.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
the only reason English is an official language there is because it was an American colony for 60 years.
More interestingly, Spanish is spoken by few people there (although they have spanish names often) even though Spain ruled the area for 400 years.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
When I started reading the article I was not impressed at all. When I finished the article, I only walked away with a small hope -> No crashes. I've been running Office XP, Visio 2002, Flash MX, and Lotus Notes R5 (plus some small apps like WS_FTP for craps and giggles) on Fedora without any issues other than then Office apps freezing like they do on my Windows OS. I'm using Crossover Office btw... David doesn't seem to be anything new...
Goal in Life: Learn as much as I can...
1. Create a website describing the need for windows applications to run on other operating systems.
2. ???
3. Profit!
I don't understand what you are proposing.
First, let's ignore any apps that do direct writing to hardware, just to make it simplier.
Okay now say a program calls function winA().
So wine implements winA(), by say just calling linuxA()
What a recompiler would do is rewrite the winA() to linuxA() on the fly.. not much different, no real help.
I suppose it would be helpful if in the code you do say:
winA(); winB() where there is no linux equialent, but there is a linuxAB() that does both, in which case the recompilier would have the advantage. But you could arguably do that anyway by implementing winA() to set some flag, then winB() checks the flag is set, and if so calls winAB().
Here's the bandwagon... you know what to do...
All I want is a kind word, a warm bed and unlimited power.
Bzzzt. Wrong.
The (academic) definition of "operating system" is "interface to the hardware".
"kernel" in unix terms is synonymous with "operating system".
"distro" is "operating environment".
If you *really* want a complete rant on this, I have written one, sad individual that I am.
In future, please refer to a recognised textbook (suggestions in the link above) before jumping in.
Not to mention Windows with improved security...
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
No Offense to the nice People at WIne who are doing an excellent job making the closed source run on OSS, But isn't there an easier way?
.NET)? I mean, If Adobe, when compiling Illustrator, could just select a different option in their IDE (or whatever) to compile for linux and they could increade their market share 5-10%, using a free add-in,. . . Why wouldn't they do that?
In addition, the documentation already exisits. Every language is documented. Library's are defined. Simply rewriting the library's so the calls become linux/SDL/GTK/QT calls, makes this simply a matter of changing the working directory. Make gcc/mono integrate into proprietary compilers; model Win32Languages and libraries and make gcc/mono able to compile applications written in other compilers.
Every program purchased has top be compiled, right? There are only so many compilers/IDE's for Windows. Wouldn't it be easier, more feasible, to build cross-compiler mudules for the major IDE's (e.g. Visual Studio
IANADeveloper (I do mostly web deployment solutions) so I don't know what IDE's there are. As a result I obviously don't know what sort of logistics would be involved. Assuming it were possible, though, apps could be ported automatically, and OSS could run the CSS win32 can (except M$ products; are you kidding me) to run _native_ anyway. It could even be done optimized per platform. Ship it with a _quality_ installer packager for win32 and Linux, and Smaller Developers will eat it up. Good installers are few and far between and making one available would allow all kinds of increades in compatible technology. At any rate, would love to read your comments
Can I be a Luddite too?
Any bets on what % of David is built on the leaked Win2k code? Not that companies based from the Phillipines aren't inherently trustworthy... I'm just sayin.
I'd rather have a good productivity suite aimed at Linux and better commercial level documentation than just something that allows me to run Microsoft apps. Yeah, yeah, I know that there are other products that are tied to the Microsoft OS base, but those will eventually migrate as well.
There is a lot of inertia in the commercial software market. It takes years for apps to catch up. Why do you think it took such a long time for the DOS based Windows transition? It took a long time to get all the hardware manufacturers to write drivers, ISVs to qualify their apps, and in some cases finally port it to 32 bits, etc. With the current, very positive, Linux trend, there are a lot of hardware and software companies taking a serious look and targeting Linux. It just takes time.
As far as project David goes, one big downfall is that they are copying existing Windows APIs. New APIs are under development right now for release in Longhorn and beyond. The project David folks have to wait until they're released to find out about the changes. Then they have to scurry about and put those changes into project David. What makes them think that they're any smarter or faster than the developers at Microsoft in order to do this in less time? By the time they catch up, the cycle will repeat itself. Never underestimate your enemy. It is better to be surprised by his stupidity than by his cleverness."
They are much more fortunate than the original Wine developers because they don't have to suffer through the awkward win32 transitional period, and have Wine as an example to study to boot. The Wine developers had nothing.
My hats off to the Wine folks, and a big yawn for project David.
During the years of 2001 and 2002, I used Win2k + BorlandC++builder (version 5/6/7? don't remember) to develop an geoprocessing app. My win2k never stood up more than one work day (max 10h). I actually used its failures to know it was time to go home, because they happened invariably in 8 1/2-9 1/2 hours uptime. And yes, no viruses, no driver snafu, no nothing, simply leaked system resources.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
My mother always said, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. So i'll just say you're wrong, and while symantics aren't important enough to engage in a flame war, they are important; their importance is at the very heart of the name issue.
~dijjnn
well i have, and everyone there speaks english!
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Linux really needs a killer usability app. Something like a personal google that would allow you to recollect ANY information you've ever viewed in your browser - complex search features that don't look complex. Instead of freaking out over google's 1GB email system, port that search functionality to the linux desktop and make it possible to do all the same stuff WITHOUT having to store your email on google's farm. Instead of trying to port games and catch up on drivers for fancy graphics cards, court a hardware maker and invest some GPL lovin' into a graphics engine. Or court IBM and get them to migrate even more of that functionality to the CPU cores - I'm sure Apple would love that too.
There's so many ways linux is this close to outdistancing Windows, but none of them are complete enough to be of use to joe average. And if WINE/David/whatever would allow windows apps to be used on linux AND linux has capabilities that windows doesn't - and people can see and feel those differences themselves - then this is a good thing. So long as linux is playing catch-up, 'tho, this is nothing but one more tool for MS to point at and say "See? We set the standards! Why would you look anywhere else?"
Awesome!
Also no emulation required! (like vmware or win4lin or virtualpc (does that even run on linux anymore))
Sweet. I hope they can get it working and this isn't just a bunch of vapourware.
Actually, in XP you should never get a blue screen of death.
Reason: MS apparently decided that the BSOD was becoming too much of a symbol of windows failure, so they make XP by default reboot on an error that would otherwise cause a BSOD.
That being said, XP with good drivers is a vast improvement over any of the 9x series, but still not as stable as my 'nix.
And if you think on the fact that 'nix drivers are often hacked up without much support from the hardware makers... that should say a lot (either that HW makers create crappy drivers, or linux kernel developers are better at them).
OS/2 had a community developed program that would convert WIN32 apps into OS/2 binaries and run them on OS/2 if you had the special libraries installed. I forget the name now, its been too many years.
Byte
However: A lot of calls take weird undocumented arguments that only Microsoft applications use. And from experience in system call interception, if you don't pass them along, the applications don't work. So someone reimplimenting the system calls will have a fun time reverse engineering those weird arguments. (Or, "reverse engineer" them from the leaked source code)
But the major implication of this approach is that you won't get the licensing cost savings, as you will still need a licensed copy of the Win32 layer. Ignoring the EULA conflict issues (running Win32 not on the NT kernel), this will kill any cost advantages.
IBM's ViaVoice is ported to linux and the speech engine is free. so there are linux apps that are voice enabled. there is also a linux distro that's built for the blind. can't recall what it's called.
My keyboads not woking popely.
Your own citation of dictionary.com on your "complete rant" disagrees with you. "The low-level software which handles the interface to peripheral hardware, schedules tasks, allocates storage, and presents a default interface to the user when no application program is running
/ The foundation software of a machine; that which schedules tasks, allocates storage, and presents a default interface to the user between applications"
Default interface to the user? Sounds like a shell to me.
So there you go -- operating system = kernel + shell. (One could argue for a bootloader as well)
The following sentence is true. The preceding sentence was false.
Project David is vaporware. There is no code, it's not an Open Source project, and there is nothing of substantive value on the site.
It's all bunk to me.
Mike www.sharecube.com
I'm not sure what to make of this now; it seems they have made a presentation of the technology to the press. Is it a scam or is this for real?
My operat~1 system unders~1 long filena~1 , does yours?
Assuming this is not Vaporware, I wonder if they are going to implement a BSOD into thier kernel module for every time thier WES or whatever it's called crashes!
Linux + Windows in one purchase price, I'd actually consider paying for it.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Yeah right. You'd rather be raped up the arse by Bill Gates {who, incidentally, buys dead babies from the abortion unit at the Seattle Royal Infirmary just so he can stamp on their faces} than use an operating system designed for the People, by the People, and with the People in control?
If you really mean what you are saying {as opposed to saying it just to provoke a reaction} then you are seriously fucked up. I'd recommend you go to Belgium or the Netherlands, as they have an operation there which will undoubtedly cure your condition. If you can't afford the air fare, I hear you can pick up a surprising number of coins from railway tracks -- people drop them down train toilets all the time. Be sure to go at night, wearing black from head to foot, in order that nobody will see you and arrest you. Due to centrifugal force phenomena, the heaviest {and therefore highest denomination} coins are often found near curves.
What a recompiler would do is rewrite the winA() to linuxA() on the fly.. not much different, no real help.
Lets put it this way. Under WINE, a Windows application can inferface the OS though either a replacement WINE project DDL or native-Window-OS DDL which run under a form of emulation, calling lower down replacement WINE project DDLs. The former replacement WINE project DDL can be incomplete, missing functionality. The latter native-Window-OS DDL is often more compatable for Windows applications but run slower on the host OS.
Running that native-Window-OS DDLs though a theoretical re-compiler, which performs global short-circuiting, should produce a binary that provides the same functionality of the native-Window-OS DDL but runs closer to the speed of a replacement WINE project DDL.
In the same way, the same theoretical re-compiler would perform global short-circuiting on the application's own DDLs and executable, producing faster executing code.
they say they're at 0% of dev / engineering.
Sounds like a Source Forge project. These guys will be hearing from VA's lawyers.
When it came down to Windows or OS/2, OS/2 did not have the advantage of being free as in beer, which for all practical purposes Linux is.
That alone will attract a LOT of people. Assuming Linux takes the high road on the topic of DRM, etc. - chances are good that it will definitely remain a competitive choice at the very least.
ENGLISH IS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE PHILIPPINES!
The Philippine Constitution says otherwise
The official language of the Philippines is Filipino and English. That means that government is required to recognize both for communication.
Most Filipinos speak Tagalog, which is a variant of Filipino. Many (but certainly not all) also speak English. My wife's grandparents don't speak English, and much of her family has trouble with it.
I also find it particularly amusing that you quote an American source to back up your assertion (even when it clearly contradicts you), and then bash American ignorance. (Note that I'm not American.)
Apart from that, the kind of "short-circuiting" you are suggesting would be highly unlikely to make a difference. Wine tries to model the implementation as closely as possible on how Windows actually works. That means implement as much as possible of Wine in terms of other Windows API's.
The native Windows DLL's does not run under any form of emulation, they run just as they would under Windows. The difference is that some of the Windows API calls they make may call Wine replacements instead of a native Windows DLL, and some of those Wine replacements may call Linux API's.
There's no more benefit in what you term "short-circuiting" those call chains for Wine that there is for real Windows - all the work still needs to be done, and for most of the code there's unlikely to be significant amounts of straight call forwarding.
There's nothing in the concepts Wine is based on that means a Wine DLL must be slower than the native equivalent, and nothing that means a Windows app needs to run slower under Wine than under Windows - where that is the case, it's a reflection of the current status of the Wine implementation and/or architecture, not an inherent limitation of reimplementing the Win32 API on Linux.
Maybe they found some big secret in the Windows source code.
So there you go -- operating system = kernel + shell. (One could argue for a bootloader as well)
So you're telling me I have to start calling my OS Korn/Linux? (At least I'm not stuck running Csh/Linux. That OS sucks.)
Sounds exactly like Win4Lin.
.dll's.
Which funny started out as Merge on SCO Unix, allowed people to run Windows and SCO Unix at the same time.
We have Win4Lin and VMWARE that allows you to run any Windows, but you still need a licensed copy, WINE doesn't. Not sure how Project David would get around not having a licensed copy of windows or using windows
Wierd they are demo'ing the product when the development website says its still being designed.
From another page on the site:
"Both Linux and Windows OS's have kernels, which operate in a virtually identical manner."
Oh man, who'dve known?
1p}{ 1 sp34k |33+ +|-|e|\| p30p13 \/\/il| 8e i/\/\pr3553|)
Please do not try to compare Windows and UNIX in terms of reliability. Windows servers are rarely capable of 1-week uptimes in real world environments.
VMware does this by painful means, scanning code, using memory protection to catch self-modifying code, and generally doing too much work. With proper CPU support, a virtual machine can work cleanly, as on IBM mainframes.
Transmeta, or somebody who knows how to patch Transmeta's "code morphing" engine, could solve the problem properly.
Of course, all you get from this is the ability to run entire operating systems in virtual machines. You still have to run Windows to run Windows apps in VM.
Emulating the Windows platform for applications is a completely different problem. There's no fundamental technical obstacle; it's just a huge job and may run into intellectual property problems.
You don't think "runs /sbin/init (whatever that happens to be) and handles system calls" is an interface to the user? This is the only default interface that you really get, since the user's shell is specified by /etc/passwd and has no default.
For the actual default interface, there's really only the API, sysrq-commands, and device drivers (including the virtual console stuff). Everything else, no matter how fundamental, is an application and is therefore not between applications.
On the other hand, the combination of a POSIX-compliant userspace and the kernel is also an operating system, because it also performs those functions (more extensively in some ways and more conveniently in other ways). There's no reason something can't be an operating system, if it fits the definition, just because a subpart of it also fits the definition. Any point where there is a complete API layer, such that you can divide everything into system and applications, has a side that's an OS.
Didn't you mean 'holy handgrenade and they somewhat know who would sit on it' ?
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Of course it exists and I've got the source code right here:
#!/bin/bash
# David source code: david.sh
# Warning: Strictly confidential!!!
str=$1
while [ "$1" != "" ]
do
shift
str="$str $1"
done
wine $str
..who didn't bring you DOSiX!
Sorry, I read your article, but I'm still not convinced. For one thing, you seem to assume that every operating system has a structure comparable to Unix. The truth is that the term "operating system" is not well defined, no matter how much we might want it to be.
Where's the "operating system" in this picture?
http://www.cs.utah.edu/flux/fluke/html/
That leak of a fragment of source was insignificant from a technical perspective, it was merely a PR problem. College students have had complete access (legally) to the Windows NT line of source code for years. Universities were able to get source licenses for specific research projects. The terms were pretty fair, there was an NDA but students could work on the projects, publishing was not a problem, the license was portable if you (researcher leading the project) moved to a different University. At least that was my understanding of the deal in the late 90s.
Did anyone of you managed to get an windows app running with wine that uses MSI installation?
mine here always crashes with error minus 16thousend or so
bickerdyke
This is going to end up like Gerhard "Miserable Failure" Duesten :P
Why would anyone want to make blue screens happen on Linux?
What is wrong with these people, can't spend a little time changing over and learning some new stuff?
Poor babies, let's just leave them in our productivity dust.
The killer ap in Linux is not having to restart it every 15 minutes.
But why does Linux want Joe Average using it? Joe Average probably won't contribute anything to Linux, except complaints. As i've said before, i think Linux and FOSS in general should leave Joe Average to large corporations with the resources to deal with them. Linux is really targeted towards programmers and other power users, who want or need the added functionality enough to learn it.
And the l33t shall inherit the 34r7h.
"I wonder if Specops' David is a recompiler?"
Well read the fucking article and you'll find out.
I'm very impressed with the press release but I would like to see a screen shoot or two. Once I see those pics I will jump on the band wagon.
BTW: Has any compared the Cross Over Plugin to the current version Wine?
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
there's a linux version of winrar (official too) at winrars website.
just install it (pay for it if you like) and use the functionality in file-roller/ark/xterm/whatever
I realize this isnt scientific, but theirsite has that 'appearance' of being bogus..
A lot of hot air to get some cash..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Is there nothing better for you to do with your time than argue over stupid stuff like this? Be productive and do something more than this with your time. Wait. WTF am I doing!
regards
dbcad7
waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
Bloody brilliant ... now that we've established that the grandparent poster is the one for whom english is possibly not a language at all (as in he/she has trouble reading), can we remod him/her appropriately please ?
Servlet v2.4 container in a single 161KB jar file ? Try Winstone
Caslon Chua, SpecOpS Labs Inc.'s chief software architect shows the package cover of their newly developed bridge software or "middleware," known as Project David during its presentation Thursday, April 22, 2004 in a university in Manila. The Filipino company unveiled what it said was a revolutionary new software that would allow users of Windows-based programs to run them seamlessly on computers using the rival Linux operating system to challenge Microsoft Corp.'s dominance over desktop computer business world wide. (AP Photo/Pat Roque)
http://se.news.yahoo.com/040422/45/1emi6.html
Let's assume for a minute all these claims are true and they have the perfect windows emulation for linux.
This is commercial development. They aren't going to open this code and it's not going to be free.
Like most commercial vendors they will be greedy of course and price it high, instead of dirt cheap like they need it.
If they price the oem non volume (or maybe even 10 pack) at about $5-15 then this will be a big winner all around. They will sell millions(or even billions) of copies and make a great return on their invesstment, every linux pc will be preloaded with this thing. Every linux user will have a copy.
On the other hand, if they are greedy like most companies and want more than that... all the sudden linux is as expensive or more so than windows per copy (like with crossover office). Vendors are going to sell box sets, not download distros and a box set is going to cost about $60-80, again simply too expensive. If this thing is even $20 and is basically prerequisite (and it would be) then it's just as expensive as windows.
Nope, our best hope is that this company has real technology, goes bankrupt and gpl's their code with their dying breath. It will do us little good for the same reason crossover office hasn't done nearly as much as it should... crossover office alone costs nearly as much per license as windows. If you combine it will a box distro it's more than an OEM XP Pro, let alone home.
I mean look at the cheesy picture of on their home page. They took a stock photo of a woman making a thumbs-up sign and touched it up to make it hold a kid's sling.
on if they include the stolen code in their work or not. If they only saw the NT 4.0 and W2K source code to find the undocumented and hidden APIs to emulate/convert to on Linux, and then did not use the source code, then it may not be so illegal. It would be hard to prove that they used stolen code, except for the fact that they are using undocumented and hidden API calls that nobody but Microsoft or anyone else who saw Windows source code should know about.
Phoenix and Award did this to clone IBM's BIOS, they unassembled IBM's ROM BIOS for the IBM PC and then found all the calls it made. Then that team was dirty, so they could not be used for building the Clone BIOS. A second clean team looked at BIOS calls gathered by the first team, and then designed a Clone BIOS to use them. No IBM code was used, but the Clone BIOS functioned just like IBM's BIOS did.
Besides part of the Project David website talked about PC Emulation, so I suspect they are going to provide a PC Emulator to run Windows under. Something like Virtual PC, VMWARE, Bochs, etc.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
You do know that's not Seth FINKELSTEIN, dontcha? It's a troll.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Hey... MY name is David, and I don't appreciate it being associated with some windows crap. Can I sue them for using my intellectual property?
If they wanted to name it after someone, they should have called it 'Melinda'... I'm sure that would have bothered Bill in a way he couldn't legally do anything about (his wife's name).
I don't see anything on SpecOpsLabs site that talks about the fact that WINE falls under the LGPL. Rather they state, "Instead of simply using the WINE project as our basis, David has incorporated into its architecture the best features of all the windows compatibility projects such as WINE, WABI, TWIN and the others. David therefore is not a reinvention of the wheel. Rather, it takes the best of breed pieces from previous attempts to simulate the Windows Subsystem, and integrate it into a single product."
To the extent that this "incorporation" consists of copying over big blocks of code from WINE, this might raise some intricate legal issues. According to WineHQ, the copyright in WINE is held by the "WINE Project Authors," who now number over 600 people. I'm not sure exactly how such a large, disparate group of developers will be able to defend their copyright if it comes to that. Perhaps they should consider transferring copyright to the FSF, or setting up some nonprofit corporate entity to hold the rights?
Worse- BASH/Linux. Are we all now Linux bashers?
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
there is a poor underclass that doesn't speak that much english, for sure
but i've found that most filipinos to be extraordinarily self-conscious of their english skills, when they need not be... so they will say "they don't speak english" when they speak it just fine
hell, it's a country of 80 million people
if there is australian english, american english, canadian english, etc... why not filipino english? but most filipinos don't see it that way...
it's almost as if unless their inflections and accent is exactly american, they consider their english skills to be awful, while i have never had any trouble there understanding anyone
weird
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Shell under LinuxOS are replaceable. sh, ash, bash, sash, ksh, pkdsh, zsh, csh, tcsh. I'm sure there's a few I missed...
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
From their website they expect "Engineering and
Development" to take 4 to 6 weeks. Good luck to you!
I must have forgot to comment out those win_crash() calls!!!!!!!!! Let me take the phone and call the guys!!! They will thank me a lot for it!!! :-)
--
This post contains attempt of Humour. Do not punch it, or the Humour can leak.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Here's what I did: I made a wiki engine my desktop. I can search my wiki for anything I ever wrote about, I can search for any file linked to it by keyword, and I can enter well formatted text using common wiki commands like //this is italics// and **this is bold**. It's freaking fast, it's powerful, and it could be much better integrated - basically it's a lot of the stuff MS touts about longhorn, and I've been doing it for two years now. There'ss no reason at all we couldn't make mozilla (or some browser) the default desktop interface for MOST THINGS and have a good 75% of desktop functionality driven by "web apps" - client/server apps that look nice and are easily customised by any joe user who was willing, at any time in the past, to learn how to create a web page.
Yeah, it all sounds so very 1999. But this is coming from a guy who can hardly write a compilable c app - if I can do all the stuff I did in damn jscript, you XUL and Apache skilled coders oughtta be able to do some real magic. All it takes is someone to do it instead of offering 100 reasons why it can't (or shouldn't) be done.
I guess the spellchecker was ouff
This isn't funny... April Fools is already over. They port MS Powerpoint to Linux using someone else's work (Crossover Office maybe), then bash the original project, hack their own logos in, and redistribute it as their own original program only for a few hundred dollars... Maybe I should start work on 'Phase 3' of a program that will constantly upgrade your hardware....
Believe me... take a look at their Marketing Strategy!
http://www.specopslabs.com/market.htm
Cheers, Matt.
I've had computers with 9x reboot for varieties of reasons... but generally they were hardware/power related. With XP, the general user doesn't know if something crashed to reboot his machine, or if there is a hardware issue such as his power bar, PSU, or something similar getting overloaded.
the BASH/Linux operating system.
wait, isn't that Windows NT based stuff?
Now we know why their stuff is closed source!
>Any point where there is a complete API layer, such that you can divide everything into system and applications, has a side that's an OS.
....
Interesting. I used to be of the "kernel only" operating system camp (that's what they taught us in CS)... but I'm starting to think that it needs to be redifined. However, your definition also needs a bit of honing. An API can be defined by any piece of middleware. Clearly a true operating system would exist between the hardware and the middleware. Or is the entire concept of an operating system outdated?
By your definition:
A Java VM is an OS.
An application server (such as WebSphere) is an OS.
A database is an OS. (You could call stored procedures an application)
Perl is an OS.
on and on.
I used my cheap CTX box with Win95 for over two years and I never once had to re-install the OS. I don't remember it being at all crash prone, and the only reason I stopped using Win95 was because I got the Win98 upgrade disk for Xmas. It was just as stable with that for a good long time.
It was also stable when I turned it into a Linux box.
Of course this is just an anecdote, all it proves is that there was at least one stable Win9x box out there.
Security and reliability mean nothing to end users. End users just want to do what they want and the rest of the shit to get out of the way. They want free crap. they want music free. They want to email their friends and to play games. that they have become used to windows SNAFUs just proves it even more: reliability means nothing to most PC users - to most, it's an utterly foreign concept, much like that "security" thing.
"Do you know someone else has control of your computer via that backdoor virus?"
Yeah, so what? I don't use it for anything much anyway - just shopping on ebay and email. I don't WANT to reload everything - just get rid of the virus and call it fixed...
... Linux is only a word. The actual kernel is the ones and zeroes that exist on some storage medium.
Mine is Good
This is an official reply of SpecOps Labs to one of the wine ml members. /0702.html
taken from: http://www.winehq.com/hypermail/wine-devel/2004/04
> Good Evening Mr. Smith
>
>
> Thanks for your email; We appreciate your taking the time to delve into
> Project David. We feel certain that the closer that you look at the project
> the more comfortable you will be with it.
>
> Our overall purpose of the project is to encourage consumers to use Linux.
> Our David Linux/Win Bridge software is simply a product to facilitate the
> transition to Linux. Our Linux/Win Bridge software is one of multiple
> components, which comprise our OS platform. In the future we will release
> another component, which is a set of tools that will encourage developers to
> write native Linux applications.
>
> The David software is a joint development effort between De La Salle
> University and SpecOpS Labs. Our Chief Technical Officer is Mr. Peter
> Valdez. As you may know Mr. Valdez is the founder of Tivoli Systems, which
> is now a multi billion-dollar flagship product of IBM.
>
> The code for our Windows/Linux Bridge is a hybrid of code, including our own
> proprietary code, and code from several open source projects. For now we
> are keeping the exact nature of our code under wraps until our first release
> of David. We are not using pirated or stolen code from Microsoft or any
> other source. As stated we are not disclosing the nature of our code or our
> exact methodology for running Windows Apps on Linux, this is for competitive
> and other reasons. However, a good deal of our success is attributed to our
> innovative methodology in assembling together open source code, proprietary
> code that we have written/purchased, and freeware. In the future, once we
> disclose how we have done this, then I'm sure a number of developers will be
> kicking themselves in the rear end for not having thought of this
> themselves.
>
> We do encourage the open source movement and we will comply with the GNU
> LESSER GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE.
>
> Our website is currently under construction, the data (*especially the
> technical data) on the website for the most part is not current and in some
> cases is up to 20+ months old. We are now in the process of doing a major
> overhaul of the site, which we expect to be completed in a few weeks. *The
> technical data on our web site concerning David, is outdated and in some
> cases a competitive smoke screen. We appreciate your comments on the WINE
> Project and we have no intention of misrepresenting the WINE. Therefore, we
> are now consulting our English-technical writers and the Filipino -
> designers/developers of David to ensure that there are no mistakes in the
> translation. Until we can update the website we have disabled the links to
> both our technical and competitive data. Hopefully, the development
> community won't get wrapped around the axle about David, and will withhold
> judgment until David is released.
>
> So far as our product goes we just completed our prototype, which has been
> in the making for quite some time. Our first release will be issued before
> the end of 2004; we expect to start Beta Testing in about 4-5 months. On 22
> April we held a press conference at De La Salle University. During the press
> conference we demonstrated our prototype to more than 30 members of the
> local and international media. During the demo we ran Macromedia Flash, and
> MS Office on our Windows/Linux Bridge without a hitch. What you read in the
> media was primarily the result of the press conference/demo. David is not a
> hoax or vaporware, but we're not going to make any further claims about
> David at
This is an official reply of SpecOps Labs to one of the wine ml members. /0702.html
Taken from: http://www.winehq.com/hypermail/wine-devel/2004/04
> Good Evening Mr. Smith
>
>
> Thanks for your email; We appreciate your taking the time to delve into
> Project David. We feel certain that the closer that you look at the project
> the more comfortable you will be with it.
>
> Our overall purpose of the project is to encourage consumers to use Linux.
> Our David Linux/Win Bridge software is simply a product to facilitate the
> transition to Linux. Our Linux/Win Bridge software is one of multiple
> components, which comprise our OS platform. In the future we will release
> another component, which is a set of tools that will encourage developers to
> write native Linux applications.
>
> The David software is a joint development effort between De La Salle
> University and SpecOpS Labs. Our Chief Technical Officer is Mr. Peter
> Valdez. As you may know Mr. Valdez is the founder of Tivoli Systems, which
> is now a multi billion-dollar flagship product of IBM.
>
> The code for our Windows/Linux Bridge is a hybrid of code, including our own
> proprietary code, and code from several open source projects. For now we
> are keeping the exact nature of our code under wraps until our first release
> of David. We are not using pirated or stolen code from Microsoft or any
> other source. As stated we are not disclosing the nature of our code or our
> exact methodology for running Windows Apps on Linux, this is for competitive
> and other reasons. However, a good deal of our success is attributed to our
> innovative methodology in assembling together open source code, proprietary
> code that we have written/purchased, and freeware. In the future, once we
> disclose how we have done this, then I'm sure a number of developers will be
> kicking themselves in the rear end for not having thought of this
> themselves.
>
> We do encourage the open source movement and we will comply with the GNU
> LESSER GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE.
>
> Our website is currently under construction, the data (*especially the
> technical data) on the website for the most part is not current and in some
> cases is up to 20+ months old. We are now in the process of doing a major
> overhaul of the site, which we expect to be completed in a few weeks. *The
> technical data on our web site concerning David, is outdated and in some
> cases a competitive smoke screen. We appreciate your comments on the WINE
> Project and we have no intention of misrepresenting the WINE. Therefore, we
> are now consulting our English-technical writers and the Filipino -
> designers/developers of David to ensure that there are no mistakes in the
> translation. Until we can update the website we have disabled the links to
> both our technical and competitive data. Hopefully, the development
> community won't get wrapped around the axle about David, and will withhold
> judgment until David is released.
>
> So far as our product goes we just completed our prototype, which has been
> in the making for quite some time. Our first release will be issued before
> the end of 2004; we expect to start Beta Testing in about 4-5 months. On 22
> April we held a press conference at De La Salle University. During the press
> conference we demonstrated our prototype to more than 30 members of the
> local and international media. During the demo we ran Macromedia Flash, and
> MS Office on our Windows/Linux Bridge without a hitch. What you read in the
> media was primarily the result of the press conference/demo. David is not a
> hoax or vaporware, but we're not going to make any further claims about
> David at this point, W
...amazing that so many of you would even give this the time of day. it may be very non-PC, but simple fact is that any westerner with a little direct experience of philippines and filipino ways or modes of thought can immediately and with 100% total confidence say that this is either:
1) a complete and utter scam... and wouldn't be surprised if soon it became possible to advance purchase distributorships for the vaporware which will never materialise. good luck guys.
or
2) a combination of 1) plus self-delusional hyperbole (a not entirely unknown national characteristic of said nation).
anyway the rank amateurishness of the website and the boilerplate prospectus drivel-speak should be more than enough to give it away... ibm letter of intent... dear god!
anyway, i guess it makes a change from sitting in net cafe trying to find american husband on irc... give them another decade and they'll catch up with the nigerians.
I supported Wine development in a small way early on when I was director of the Syntropy Institute. I think one of the most important things we've learned from Wine Development is that catching up with a complex closed source project is _hard_. My guess is that Xen will be the first Open Source product to really allow Windows and Linux to coexist well. IMHO it is worthwhile for Wine to be fully developed-but in the meantime, Xen provides a solution that is applicable for folks that already have a Windows license. Xen appears to have Microsoft's blessing. The release of Xen will mean there is no reason not to have Linux on any Windows machine-you'll be able to give Windows badly needed adult supervision with no more ill effects other than use of a bit of disk space and cpu cycles.
A piece of middleware isn't an OS, but a piece of middleware plus the OS it runs on can be an OS. The middleware API divides applications from OS, but that means that the OS is the total of the middleware and everything closer to the hardware.
There are Java VMs which are, by themselves, OSes, because they run as kernels on the hardware (or, at least, there is no accessible API underneath them); this is how some cell phones are designed. Since you can't tell if the VM you're running on is actually not one of these, any Java VM in combination with everything else it needs to run is an OS, since it's equivalent.
I've put together a nice theory about how David might work. It's on my website: http://www.datiku.com/articles/david.php
and i bet bill would use bash/linux
-- Karma: beyond good and evil - mostly affected by posting political
It certainly looks dodgy, but I think some are being a bit hard on the website, given that it says "under construction".
That said, the stuff that *is* up looks like a load of rubbish.
OS in a web browser? Maybe a confused reference to the fake integration of explorer.exe and iexplore.exe?
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
Where? The only file I can find in rarlabs.com is the command line one. I'd be extremely grateful if you could provide me with a direct link.
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
Care to try again?
and innovation doesn't just mean "never been done before." Innovation means doing something better, different, in a way that often makes people say "gee, that's so simple, why didn't I think of that?"
get the commmand line one, install it, set ark or file roller up to use it.
they dont have a linux GUI tool on the winrar website, but i had to download the command line one once to open something a friend sent.
you have to use the rar tool through ark.
Thanks. I also found something called "linrar", so I guess there ARE alternatives. Oh well, I still try to close windows by double-clicking the icon on the top left corner and do sums in excel by sum(a1..a5), so I guess old habits die hard...
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
My only problem with the 'press release' is that it only uses future tense verbs to describe the product. That leads me to believe that this is still in the planning stages, and thusly will never see the light of day. Use of present tense and past tense verbs, though, would make be believe them a little more. But like most of you, I don't believe it until I see it myself.
As I walk through the valley of death I fear no one, for I am the meanest sonova bitch in the valley!
What a cool reason to Bash/Linux nomenclature.
He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
You are a stupid cock.
blabla
I like my spaghetti with source.