Can Star Wars Episode III Be Saved?

mcwop writes "MSNBC is running a commentary asking: 'Can "Star Wars: Episode III" be saved?' It proposes changes such as ripping off Akira Kurosawa, getting the otherwise good actors to emote, and even firing Lucas. It is one year away, but is it too late to save Episode III?"

Comments

no.

[mrpuffypants]

no.

Re:no.

[Anonymous Coward]

To elaborate on my fine friend's answer:
HELL no.

Re:no.

[eviloverlordx]

The question "Can Episode III be saved?" begs the question of whether it needs to be saved in the first place. People can be amazingly blind to the fact that the first three movies were not stunning pieces of filmmaking in the first place, and that Lucas really hasn't changed the formula for the prequels. Are there things that could have been done better in the prequels? Certainly, but the same could be said for the original trilogy, too. I've seen all five movies multiple times in theaters, and not once have I felt like I wasted my money. I also never felt like I saw a masterpiece, just a series of enjoyable movies.

Just your friendly, neighborhood Dark Lord of the Sith

Re:no.

[Anonymous Coward]

It was basically a B movie in the seventies if that's saying anything. Not until the 3rd one did it really get any attention and even then it was mainly the unwashed masses

This is nonsense. The term "blockbuster" was invented to describe the hysteria surrounding the release of the original Star Wars. It was the greatest smash-hit film ever seen.

Re:no.

[Anonymous Coward]

How the ... did this get modded +4 INTERESTING.

Ya, it should've been modded INSIGHTFUL.

Re:no.

[Paulrothrock]

This is why I forced my fiance's little brother to watch all three of the originals before he saw any of the new ones. He still begs to watch A New Hope.

Re:no.

[Fearless Freep]

My kids have the same reaction to PM and AotC as I did to the first Star Wars so I tend to give Lucas the benefit of having done something right

Re:no.

[Nick of NSTime]

Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kershner and written Leigh Brackett (a master of pulp SF and Ray Bradbury's mentor) and Lawrence Kasdan. Some would argue that it is the best movie sequels ever made.

Re:no.

[bahamat]

Not until the 3rd one did it really get any attention and even then it was mainly the unwashed masses...which in the late 70's were abundant.

You aparently weren't around when they came out. The release of Star Wars was one of the biggest events of the 70's. People stood in line in pouring rain for 3 hours to see it. People went to see it 10 or more times in the theaters. It was all people talked about. It was huge. Everyone saw it. Cinematic quality aside, you can debate this all you like, but it was a monumental event in American culture.

You also seem to be unaware that only one of the three movies was released in the 70's. Empire was in 1980 and Jedi was in '83. Were you even born when Jedi came out?

Re:no.

[hawkbug]

Exactly - I remember being a kid and seeing the commercials for the original Star Wars on TV, and I harassed my parents everytime they came on TV until they took me to see it at the drive in. That movie strongly appealed to kids, and the first movie was hugely successful. I must have rented it on Video Disc a hundred times after it hit the rental market. It wasn't a great movie, but to a kid, it didn't matter - they had glowing swords and laser guns! What people tend to forget is that Lucas is writing for kids mostly. You have to look at the new movies from a kids point of view to know if they compare to the originals or not.

Re:no.

[ScottGant]

Not until the 3rd one did it really get any attention and even then it was mainly the unwashed masses..which in the late 70's were abundant

By the 3rd one I'm assuming you're saying "Return of the Jedi"?

If so, then sorry to say, you're just dead wrong. I suppose you were not alive when the first Star Wars came out in 1977? The world basically stopped when that movie came out. We're talking EVERYONE was talking and buzzing around about Star Wars. You couldn't turn on a TV, couldn't listen to the radio, couldn't go to any other movie without seeing a huge line of people waiting to get in and seeing it again.

Not to mention the fact that Star Wars was nominated for best picture of the year of 1977. What beat it out? Annie Hall. But to say that not until the 3rd one did it really get any attention is just...well, wrong. I'm certainly not a fan-boy of Star Wars, but I just can't let this slip by. Mainly because it kind of annoying to see Star Wars everywhere. And I mean everywhere. And it took forever for it to calm down.

Artwork? Probably not. Plain and simple fun? You betcha. Also, Lucas made it originally to be like a serial B movie that he grew up on,

Also, not to be picky, but the 2nd and 3rd one didn't even come out until the early 80's. But I suppose the 80's had their share of unwashed masses for you.

Re:no.

[fermion]

My take on it is this. Star Wars was part of a beginning. It was a leader, like Close Encounters. It was in the right spot at the right time to use emerging technology and techniques and was consistent with the interests of the Movie Going Public.

In terms of a story in was not groundbreaking. In terms of acting it was not groundbreaking. However, it did put a new twist on the generic story and minimal acting.

I saw the original three in the theaters when they were originally released. I saw the first more times than I care to admit. I saw the second more times that I care to admit. I saw the third maybe twice. The last one just did not meet my expectations. I am sure Fisher was put in a bikini merely to compensate for the lack of quality.

I next saw Star Wars when it was released on VHS. I was in my teens. I feel asleep half way through. I have seen it several times since. I have stayed awake, but frankly it is not in my collection of movies that I watch once a year of so. I saw the reedit in the theaters. I did not bother to see the other two. I am a fan. At one time I could run the dialogue, story-line, etc.

So what I see happening is people romanticizing the quality of the original trilogy. I also see people expecting an older director and writer to have the same originality of a young director and writer. Both of these lead to unreasonable expectations.

I personally do not see that the prequels are any more or less quality than the originals. I do see Lucas trying to remake the story to fit modern sensibilities and assumptions. I do not think this is unreasonable. Also, like in the originals, he maximizes the use of technology. This of course changes the look of the prequels, which annoys some people, but remains true to the spirit of the franchise. if the trend continues, and the final three eps are made, I fully expect them to be fully CGI. The original weren't simply because the technology did not exist.

Re:no.

[blinder]

You sir make some excellent points. I mean what part of "would somebody get this walking carpet out of my way" is considered "fine film?"

Also, another glaring problem with this whole concept is that you can't "fire George Lucas." Um, yeah, he *is* Star Wars, its his, and its that simple.

Its not like some studio executive can walk in and fire George Lucas... he *is* the studio for crying out loud.

I think what most people seem to do is, romanticize the OT because it is steaped in tradition and modern folk lore. And because of that people have just become so blind to the reality that Star Wars was always just meant to be a serial in the grand tradition of the 1930's and '40's seriels, and to project anything more than that is just faulty logic and you are simply setting yourself up for disappointment.

Of course, its the cool thing now days to hate. Because god forbid you actually admit to liking something! Holy shit... you'd just be another fan boy! Can't have that.

Its the safe move, to bash Episode III, especially a year prior to its release -- because after setting yourself up for a disapointment you can laugh and point "see I told you so!"

Instead of just enjoying the movie for what it is and not projecting your own tainted expectations based on a "remembered" past experience is a sure way to ensure that you will not like this movie. Instead, just maybe it might be a good idea to sit back, relax, and let your mind go and enjoy.

Re:no.

[Fouquet]

the fact that the first three movies were not stunning pieces of filmmaking in the first place

This is certainly true. And I have no complaints about the plot lines/story of Ep I & II. (except maybe Jarjar). My problem with the new episodes is the dialoge. The original episodes were so great because of all of the one liners. No matter how many times I hear 'I've got a bad feeling about this' and 'Look at the size of that thing', they are still hillarious. The dialog in Ep II was more like something out of a cheezy romance novel or a drama movie, and that was why they sucked. Lucas just needs to keep each line to 10 words or less!

Re:no.

[peterjhill2002]

I was 8 when it came out, and I can remember seeing the movie 9 different times. It was the first time I can remember that whenever a friend went to see it that their parents would take all the kids buddies. So my parents only took me once, but we all saw the movie multiple times... it was truly a group experience. I believe that is why it is such a cult movie.

On top of that, I clearly remember watching a documentary of the making of the movie, all the special effects, in school, in our library with all the third graders.

These are the reasons why so many people in their thirties have such a communal tie to Star Wars. Later when Empire was released, all of your friends who saw the first movie got back together to see the sequel. When Jedi came out, we were all older, and saw the Ewoks as this pandering too young kids, because we felt the movie was for us personally, those who saw the original Star Wars in the theater. We wanted Jedi to be targeted to us. When (understandably) Lucas wanted to bring more young children into the Star Wars cult, we protested. Take this to the ultimate level with Jar Jar and Phantom Menace, and we can see why so many felt the movie to be poisonous trash. It was taking our childhood youth icons and giving it away to others.

Perhaps if we could all watch Episode 3 through the eyes of an 8 or ten year old, we would enjoy the experience much better.

Re:no.

[banzai51]

Totally agree. What people forget today is how different Star Was was. It was the first movie in a long, long time to come out and give everyone good fun and hope. You could unabashidly cheer for this movie and the good guys. It was completely out of left field in the 70s.

Re:no.

[(54)T-Dub]

The thing that was great, too me, about the first three movies was the innovative and realistic galaxy that was created. I loved how everything was dirty and ships would break down or get stuck. Han Solo was a smuggler driven by money (in the begining at least) and he fired first at Guedo. Darth Vader and the Emperor were menacing and the music was incredible.

The prequels were un-inspired vanilla squeaky clean space movies. The characters were flat and Lucas can't direct a movie to save his life. Natalie Portman was great in Léon, Cold Mountain and Heat. As with most young actors though, she needs a good director to make her shine. Even Samuel L. Jackson's performance was weak. Samuel L. Freaking Jackson for christ's sake. I think it is very telling that they wrapped up shooting the 3rd prequel ahead of schedule ....

Lucas: "Take 1, Action"
Actors give half-ass performance
Lucas: "Cut. That looks good to me."
Lucas knob polisher: "Yes Heir Lucas, that looked great."
Lucas: "Ok, that's a wrap."

Re:no.

[perlchild]

How much of its impact on cinematic culture was the movies themselves? and how much was that at the time, no sci-fi(in the broadest sense, Star Wars is not as sci-fi as say Blade Runner) movie explored the same themes?

The question "Can it be saved?" also brings up the question: "From what?" From being overmarketed? Nothing can save it from that. From being light fluff, with low content, and being fixated on characters we know from the other movies, and yet have a darker feel to it? Not sure it can be saved from this last one, because...

because...

because that's probably the best that can be hoped for from this movie.

Read that again,

IMO Empire strikes back was the darkest of the original trilogy, and it certainly brought new elements to the trilogy the other two movies didn't. It was the most content-rich of the two, as it explored the Jedi in detail, as well as Darth Vader, and his relationship to Luke, it also fleshed out important characters, introduced new ones that would become important in the third movie, and was generally the more developed(plot/character wise) of the three. It went somewhere(to a big cliffhanger to be specific), and added a lot of "deep thinking" material(is Lando trustworthy, what's gonna happen to XYZ, etc...)

It basically left no stone unturned in the Star Wars universe. That's why Return of the Jedi could be so light on content, and had to be action-driven, the work had already been done, and it would have been redundant to develop nearly as much characters/situations/worlds. So ROTJ was a localized plot, with galaxywide repercussions.

As for the first movie, its impact was probably most measurable under the special effects category, of which Lucas could be considered "Core Developer" if not "maybe-not-so-Benevolent Dictator" to use the Linux term. Noone had really used special effects to that degree before 1977(to my knowledge) and he certainly influenced the Hollywood adoption of

1) derived products
2) sequels

He may also have created the first american Otaku (fanboys).

Can any of this be expected of the sixth movie in the series, especially since it's a "prequel" where we might not know the details, but we certainly know the ending.

It can be good entertainment, if they work at it. And the work I'm talking about isn't an ILM, it's in the script department, and hence, it might be a heck of a lot too late to "save" that particular movie, since the plot part was set in stone ages ago... They can try to avoid fluff, as much as possible in the third movie, and keep it gritty, the-real-world-is-a-bad-place-especially-that-Jedi s-are-being-killed-all-over-now. But they can't really "save it" to the point of making it a better prequel movie than the movies in the IV-V-VI position. Better special effects, yes, a good enough plot? Maybe, for those who haven't seen the original movie, but not for the hardcore fans. That's the third "weakness" of this movie, it's a wide-audience movie, but with entrenched fans who have a great deal of influence, by disseminating(and tainting) information about the coming movie, interesting people with less first-hand knowledge of the series. That the last movie in the trilogy came out in theatres in 1988 means people less 21 years of age won't remember the theater version of the movie either. Another "chink" in the third movie's armor.

Maybe they should have tried for the original set of sequels(it was meant as a nine-movie set, at one point), despite the fact that Anakin Skywalker was probably the most interesting, complex character in the bunch.

Re:no.

[Chess_the_cat]

Not true. The first time 'blockbuster' was used was to describe the hysteria surrounding Jaws. Click here.

Re:no.

[uberdave]

Some would argue that Terminator 2, Aliens, and The Road Warrior are much better sequels.

Re:no.

[slackerboy]

Randal: Which did you like better? Jedi or The Empire Strikes Back?
Dante: Empire.
Randal: Blasphemy.
Dante: Empire had the better ending. I mean, Luke gets his hand cut off, finds out Vader's his father. Han gets frozen and taken away by Boba Fett. It ends on such a down note. I mean, that's what life is, a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of Muppets.

Re:no.

[eviloverlordx]

Let me guess. You're 25 years old and didn't see the original "Star Wars" when it came out in the theaters. This absolutely was considered to be a stunning piece of filmmaking...when it first came out in 1978. At the time, there had been nothing else like it.

No, I'm in my 30's, and saw it when it originally came out. I loved it then, and still love it. That being said, none of the Star Wars films are on the same level, as say, Kurosawa's works (which Lucas borrowed from), or The Godfather (1 and 2).

Re:no.

[yotto]

Oh, come on, there are tons of them!

"Are you an angel?"
"This party's over"
"What a drag"
"Meesa Darth Binks, dark Gungan a da Sith."

That last one's from Ep 3, I got a spoiler script.

Re:no.

[JosefK]

Thanks to his foresight in negotiating for the licensing rights, Lucas is able to finance the productions himself. No studio is involved until it's time to talk distribution.

Re:no.

[b1t r0t]

He may also have created the first american Otaku (fanboys).

What's wrong, son, ain't never heard of Trekkies? Sheesh, kids these days.

Re:no.

[Minna Kirai]

this is not what "to beg the question" means.

No, that's just what it means. "Beg the question" means to skip over an important point and assume it's true. "Are you still beating your wife?" begs the question that you have a wife, and that you attacked her in the past. Begging questions can be an intentional rhetorical trick- by getting someone to ponder the details of step #2, she might not notice that there were options open back at step #1 that you didn't want her to decide about. Example: "How long should we wait for UN approval before invading Iraq?"

Many people, often Anonymous Cowards, have heard "Beg the question" used and wrongly decided it is a synonym for "Raises the question".

Re:no.

[Minna Kirai]

You've fallen into the modern habit of substituting "begging the question" for "raises the question".

No. His use was correct. Anyone asking "Can something be saved?" has already assumed that the answer to "Is something in danger?" was true. That's just what "begging a question" means.

You might be confusing "Beg the question" with "circular arguments". Circular arguments are an important subset of "begging the question", but they're not the same thing. If I make a statement/question about Y which only makes sense if X, then I have begged X. And if X=Y, then I have additionally argued in a circle.

Re:no.

[silicon not in the v]

It's way too late to save Star Wars, and I think this is one very big reason. People mention Lucas can't direct, and can't write good dialogue. Those are both pretty good points, but here is another significant one. I don't see how the actors could ever do a good performance in this new trilogy because almost every scene is acted in front of a green screen. How are they ever supposed to do any more than recite their lines when they have nothing more than the clothes they are wearing to give them any impression about what's "going on" around them. Even worse than that is that frequently the other characters they are supposed to be interacting with aren't even there because they're going to be computer generated later. AAAND, how are multiple actors in front of a green screen supposed to gel well and have good group dynamics in those scenes when they are each having to imagine what the scene looks like around them. When every actor is "seeing" the scene differently, of course they are going to look awkward.

Answer to the original question is no, because to save it, they would have to build real sets instead of using CGI all the time, and building sets takes years of prep. CGI shots are great for just animated action, but mixing too much CGI with actors' performances ruins them, as these prequels are a perfect example of.

Re:no.

[drunkenbatman]

I didn't mind that they were essentially space operas... that's fine. What the originals had were a sense of fun... rollicking good time. They were cliche'd but entertaining. I don't mind cliches when I'm entertained, I do when I'm watching ep1 & ep2.

A bright future

[RobertB-DC]

I see a bright future for the Star Wars prequels. Unfortunately, it's a more distant future than one year away.

Wait 20 years or so. The original trilogy will continue to be seen as a seminal work, and the "prequels" as a bastardized ripoff. Eventually, Lucas will die, or otherwise give up the franchise (maybe Michael Jackson can trade his Beatles songs for it).

Then, finally, someone can remake parts I through III the way they should have been done in the first place. No midchlorians, no virgin birth, no Jar Jar. Special effects that compliment the story, instead of overshadowing it.

Some future screenwriter and director will have the opportunity to give us back the thrill we had in the '70s, when we saw the original Star Wars in a non-multiplex theater, and were in awe. We who were preteens will be in our 50s... it won't be too late.

Something to look forward to! Just not in 2005.

re: a bright future

[ed.han]

i know i'm gonna get flamed for this but actually, jar-jar is absolutely necessary to the story as it exists: nobody else is stupid enough to be palpatine's tool by suggesting giving palpatine emergency powers. w/out jar-jar, there's no emergency powers and hence, no clone wars. i happen to resent it, but that's the way i think it shakes out.

otherwise though, that's an interesting idea. of course, there's a bit of me that wishes i could see a kevin smith treatment of ep 3, considering he's a big SW fanboy.

ed

Re:A bright future

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

what?!

If you put the original starwars movies under the same microscope, it sucks just as much as eps 1 and 2 did. if you look at the movies with a child's eye, then eps 1 and 2 look daaaamn good.

Hell, when I was 6 I thought Howard the Duck was a good movie too.

Re:A bright future

[plopez]

don't forget, copyrights don't expire until 70 years after the author's death. You may have to wait a lllloooonnnggg time before anyone has clearance to do a remake.

Just another example of how copyrights can incentivize dead people to leverage creativity
for value added customer delight (or something like that...)

Re: a bright future

[Anonymous Coward]

nobody else is stupid enough to be palpatine's tool by suggesting giving palpatine emergency powers

Any random functionary can fill in this role. In fact, it's a better story if you show how someone who's normally quite sensible can be scared into granting a government ridiculous "emergency powers" due to a nebulous threat. It certainly happens all the time in Real Life.

Re:A bright future

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

> -- "I'm no actor, but I'm crass enough to scam my way into a movie every now and then." - Henry Rollins

Your sig gives me a great idea! Why not take the article's suggestion of dropping Hayden Christiansen and replacing him... with Henry Rollins! Wouldn't that be awesome?! Lava-surfing saber battles? Hell no! Serious man-on-man pummeling! A pre-armor Vader the size of a Volkswagen stomping around in gym shorts like some heavily-tattooed punk-rock Hulk would absolutely beat the living *crap* out of what we had before! And the first time someone calls him "Annie" he could just head-butt them and start screaming into... erm... some sort of space microphone or something.

That would rule.

Re: a bright future

[RobertB-DC]

i know i'm gonna get flamed for this but actually, jar-jar is absolutely necessary to the story as it exists: nobody else is stupid enough to be palpatine's tool by suggesting giving palpatine emergency powers. w/out jar-jar, there's no emergency powers and hence, no clone wars. i happen to resent it, but that's the way i think it shakes out.

I saw that, and realized that there was a reason why Lucas made Jar Jar the Uncle Tom of the SW franchise for a reason after all. But it still boils down to poor writing and a lack of imagination (where "imagination" != "special effects"). If the plot was so transparent that only Jar Jar could fall for it, what of the other thousands of supposedly intelligent members of the Senate?

A good writer would have found a way to make Palpatine's plot more devious, more plausible... so inescapable that even Padme would have to agree to it. There are plenty of examples to draw on from recent American history, from McCarthyism to the present.

It didn't take a Jar Jar character in the US Senate when it voted to give Bush the power to wage war -- just incontrovertable "facts" that weren't what they seemed. The Imperial Senate didn't require a fool to lead them astray -- all it would take would have been a well-meaning but fundamentally flawed desire to do right.

Re:A bright future

[Wylfing]

when we saw the original Star Wars in a non-multiplex theater, and were in awe

Maybe a bit overstated. Even as a 10-year-old I felt embarassed by the flat, corny dialogue in some parts of #4, especially when Han says to Luke "May the Force be with you." You can tell that Harrison feels like a goon saying that line.

Now that's not to say the Star Wars universe isn't great. I rarely had so much fun as playing SW-KotOR, and much of it was because it was just so cool walking around on Tatooine.

Re:A bright future

[RobertB-DC]

So, with better special effects available, more money, and existing material as your base - you think they'll really go back to the 70s quality/style?

I think you've fallen into Lucas' lava pit -- the idea that all possible technology must be leveraged to the breaking point to make a good movie. He was on the cutting edge of special effects in the '70s, and wants to stay on the edge. He seems to think that his technical feats were the reason for the original trilogy's success.

But special effects are the background. They're the set, the chair the actor leans against. The story is where the movie lives or dies. The success of the "Spider-Man" movie isn't because of the way Peter Parker can swing between buildings in defiance of physics -- if that were the case, then "Daredevil" would have fared equally well.

I hope that a future director can use the special effects in moderation, use the material as inspiration, and use the money to pay off Lucas. With those out of the way, the story can be told. "See it again... for the first time" will finally be more than a cheezy marketing slogan.

Re:A bright future

[Kenja]

To quote Spaced.

Jar Jar makes the Ewoks look like fucken Shaft!

Re:A bright future

[mahdi13]

Does that mean if Lucas puts himself in Cryogenics that his copyright of Star Wars would last forever?

Re: a bright future

[Anonymous Coward]

It didn't take a Jar Jar character in the US Senate when it voted to give Bush the power to wage war

Didn't it?

re: a bright future

[ed.han]

that's a perfectly good point. what you say would make perfect sense...in a taut, dramatic thriller. honestly, i don't think i even want something quite that devious in my space opera. IMHO, star wars paints in broad strokes and that tendency should be part of the plot.

why is the emperor evil? b/c he craves power and power corrupts. what makes him crave power? why did he become a sith lord? these are all questions that in a serious drama would have been addressed.

that would make a very interesting movie, too. but (again, IMHO), that isn't very star wars.

not to sound like a lucas apologist, but the fact that jar-jar, who the audience is supposed to like (at least, when the character was originally conceived anyway), is responsible for the rise of the empire is probably supposed to have some sort of dramatic payoff (presumably in ep3). he is, after all, supposed to be one of the good guys.

ed

Re: a bright future

[pardey]

From William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich:

On August 19, 1934, 95% of the Germans who were registered to vote went to the polls and 90% (38 million) of adult German citizens voted to give Adolf Hitler complete and total authority to rule Germany as he saw fit. Only 4.25 million Germans voted against this transfer of power to a totalitarian regime.

I got this from ESR's web site: Why I Am An Anarchist.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the average moviegoing American would find such a vote in the Galactic Senate plausible, which says much about our instinctive understanding of human nature and history. Also, we wouldn't want the "good guys" to do anything that would help the "bad guys" now would we? That would just confuse everyone.

Re:A bright future

[kin_korn_karn]

"Amidala! I'm leaving you! You wanna know why??? CAUSE I'M A LIAAAAARRRRRR!!!"

omg, I went there. I filked Henry Rollins with a Star Wars reference. Someone shoot me now.

Re:A bright future

[nomadic]

You can tell that Harrison feels like a goon saying that line.

Maybe he's just acting. I mean, Han Solo would feel like a goon saying that.

Re: a bright future

[Chouhada]

"It didn't take a Jar Jar character in the US Senate when it voted to give Bush the power to wage war.."

agreed...it took 77 Jar Jar characters in the Senate and 296 Jar Jar characters in the House. Of course, why the rest of the Jar Jar characters in the Legislature voted otherwise will always be a mystery...

Re: a bright future

[Gzip Christ]

It didn't take a Jar Jar character in the US Senate when it voted to give Bush the power to wage war

Some would argue that Bush is the Jar Jar character - they certainly have a lot of similarities. Perhaps Ashcroft is Palpatine. He seems a lot more like an evil mastermind.

Re: a bright future

[Ubergrendle]

(cough cough) patriot act (cough cough)

Re: a bright future

[Progman3K]

Jar-Jar is necessary, because he's Annakin's best-friend.

Annakin's journey to the dark side (and consequently his fate) will be complete/sealed only when he kills Jar-Jar, which is why Jar-Jar IS.

Just fighting with his mentor (Kenobi) is not enough.

He has to betray love, and what better way to do that than to kill your best friend?

Re:A bright future

[Neop2Lemus]

Shut Your Mouth!

Re: a bright future

[gowen]

But by 1934, Germany was already a totalitarian state, and Hitler had already shown that he crushed his enemies rapidly and ruthlessly. They 1934 election result is wholly and entirely untrustworthy. Prior to the terror, in the last free elections (1933), only about 1/3rd of the electorate voted for Hitler, and he was Hindenburg's anointed succesor running on a moderate ticket (at least in comparison to '34) albeit one filled with crude and vile anti-semitism.

Re: a bright future

[risutora]

Jar-Jar is necessary, because he's Annakin's best-friend.

No wonder he turns to the dark side.

Re: a bright future

[GregWebb]

(Aside from mentioning Godwin...)

Whether it was already in place by August 1934 when Hitler had been Chancellor for under a year I don't know off the top of my head, but later German polls (they had a lot of referenda) were emphatically not free or fair. Returning officers were all Gestapo or Nazi party and ballots were pre-printed in agreement with the Government position. If you wanted to disagree you had to take your ballot (having just provided your name and address to the Gestapo) and take your ballot into the booth to amend. If you agreed, you just had to post it.

In other ways Russia and the US both have potential parallels with 1930s Germany which doesn't fill me with joy...

Re: a bright future

[Progman3K]

Are you telling me I suffered through all this Jar-Jar for NOTHING?

*murderous rage and Darth Vader theme playing*

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Simple answer: no

[Gothmolly]

It can't be saved, because it is exactly what people demand. American culture makes this movie inevitably what it will be. Does this condemn Lucas, or the low standards of the viewing consumer?

Re:Simple answer: no

[greymond]

"it is exactly what people demand"
- only those younger than 10 years old could ever appreciate Jar Jar Binks....I don't think he was demanded at all.

"American culture makes this movie inevitably what it will be"
- In that everyone who enjoyed episodes 4-7, hates episodes 1-3? ok, but I don't see how thats "American Culture's" fault....it's more like Lucas's fault for writing and directing 3 shitty movies made for kids(kids=10yrs and younger)

Re:Simple answer: no

[mrtroy]

everyone said that episode I and II were not as good as they had hoped.

AFTER they went to the theatre to see the movie and bought the DVD and the special DVD with 5 seconds of extra footage.

Yes, it is too late, because a boycott of episode II after episode I's horrible blunder would have possibly saved the third movie, because they listen to box office sales, not slashdot.

But if they make a movie that as many people as possible can go to, and sell a lot of tickets, they make a lot of money. And episode I and II made a lot of money.

Re:Simple answer: no

[Gothmolly]

Ah, but who took the kids to the movie? Who bought them the plastic lightsabers? The Jar-Jar dolls? If, as consumers, we neglect the consequences of our actions, is that not the same as choosing their ill-effects?

Re:Simple answer: no

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Back in the 80's, the only people who could appreciate Ewoks were =10 too.

Re:Simple answer: no

[xwinter]

This is a dead on answer in my point of view. To me, the movies were fun, but a definite letdown compared to the original trilogy. Kids loved them, though, and they were movies that the whole family could go see and somewhat enjoy. Thus Mr. Lucas made boatloads of cash, as did everybody involved. Therefore, Lucas is going to write another watered down story that everybody will "love", but it will be rated PG, and will make tons of cash whether we like it or not.

Re:Simple answer: no

[TwistedGreen]

No, it's definitely Lucas. If you look at movies that he's worked on--Indiana Jones, the original and special edition Star Wars--he really seems to have a thing for 'kids movies.' "The Temple of Doom," for example, was a terrible movie and the worst of the three Indiana Jones movies. It was also the one in which Lucas was most involved. He seems to have a penchant for making terrible kids movies, and I think it's just getting worse with age.

With the original Star Wars trilogy, he was limited by technology... but now, he can throw whatever he wants into a movie to fulfill his 'vision.' If the special edition 'improvements' he added to the original trilogy were really making Star Wars into what he wanted it to be thirty years ago, you can see that trend: adding useless scenes with robot antics, Han stepping on Jabba's tail, and loads of other childish slapstick crap like that. The best he could do thirty years ago with Ewoks.

In conclusion, any guy who dreams up Jar-Jar Binks is obviously nuts. You can't blame market pressure for a guy who seems to get off on terrible kids movies.

Re:Simple answer: no

[ackthpt]

only those younger than 10 years old could ever appreciate Jar Jar Binks...I don't think he was demanded at all.

Among young children I think Jar Jar was an enjoyable character and did well in merchandising.

.it's more like Lucas's fault for writing and directing 3 shitty movies made for kids(kids=10yrs and younger)

No, it's the fault of aging viewers with unrealistic expectations. Lucas' target is the young viewer. It just so happens a lot of us crusty old buggers are still kids at heart and somewhere between the adult and the kid in us we get confused and angry over unmet expectations.

As good as 4-7 are reputed to be, I find them continuing to approach campy-ness.

Re:Simple answer: no

[Shalda]

The real problem is that Lucas doesn't understand a single thing about why Star Wars was successful. It has nothing to do with "Myth" or special effects. They are the backdrop for the real stories: The homoerotic relationships of R2D2/C3PO and Han Solo/Chewbacca as well as the incesutuous Greek love triangle of Luke, Leia and Han. Then there's the drama aspect. While Episode 1 ought to have been Machiavellian art akin to The Godfather, it more closely resembled Days of our Lives.

Then, there's the cowboy test: If you replace the ships with horses and the blasters with six-shooters and find that you have a good western, then you've made a good piece of Sci-Fi. I don't think I can repeat this enough: Science Fiction is merely a setting, not a story unto itself.

Lastly, a decent editor could vastly improve Lucas' work. I cite as proof The Phantom Edit which dramatically improves the watchability of Episode 1 by cutting out a lot of the crap. Episode 3 can be saved, but not by Lucas. Like so many aging rock bands, he's lost touch with his audience, lacks the creativeness of his youth, and is too stubborn to admit its time for him to move on.

Re:Simple answer: no

[trashme]

If the special edition 'improvements' he added to the original trilogy were really making Star Wars into what he wanted it to be thirty years ago, you can see that trend: adding useless scenes with robot antics, Han stepping on Jabba's tail, and loads of other childish slapstick crap like that.

I am usually the last person to defend George Lucas, I think he is severely overrated. But Han stepping on Jabba's tail was not added in by choice, it was a necessity if the scene were to be added in at all.

That scene was originally shot with some tubby guy acting the role of Jabba. The scene was never completed for the original film, probably because it was too expensive (or too late) to build Jabba and reshoot the scene with the puppet. Come 20 years later, Lucas wants to put this scene back in, and it can be done now by just drawing over the original actor with a digital Jabba. But there is one problem, at one point in the scene Han walks around behind the guy playing Jabba. So the choice was to either have Han walk through Jabba's tail (not an option), have him step on Jabba's tail, or leave the scene out completely.

Yoda

[KeyboardMonkey]

Save or save not. There is no try!

Does Lucas Know?

[Paulrothrock]

Does Lucas know how people feel? Does he listen to the criticism? Does he realize it is hurting his reputation as a filmmaker? Is that his real neck or did he get implants? Am I asking too many questions???

Re:Does Lucas Know?

[Kainaw]

Does Lucas know how people feel? Does he listen to the criticism?


I know that there will be 100 posts saying this exact same thing by the time I click the submit button, but to answer your questions: Yes and No. He does know how people feel. He doesn't live in a little bubble in the Arizona desert. He may even read Slashdot while hiding under the identity of Paul Rothrock. But, in the end, Star Wars is not about the movies. It isn't about the story. The Start Wars books are far more interesting story-wise than the movies. It is about the marketing. If you go way back to A New Hope and read the behind-the-scenes stuff that went on to get the movie made, you can see that Lucas was keen on marketing. Everything else was just a hobby.

Re:Does Lucas Know?

[Skyshadow]

He knows -- I remember reading after Ep. 1 that he sent around a memo acknowledging that they'd hurt the series with that steaming load of crapola and that they needed to do better with Ep. 2.

Well, Ep. 2 *was* better, but I think it also demonstrated that Lucas doesn't really understand the basis of his problems. He chalked it up to criminally bad ideas like Jar Jar and fixed those, but then went right back to his usual technique of crappy dialog and lousy direction.

What really needs to happen is at least part of what the article suggests -- the movie needs a talented director (aka, not Lucas). I'm not sure that Lucas' ego will let him do that; he's spent too many years basking in the praise of the original trilogy.

It won't happen. Frankly, I'm more keyed to see the next Harry Potter movie than Star Wars Ep 3 at this point, and that's a sad, sad thing to say about a new Star Wars movie.

Re:Does Lucas Know?

[F34nor]

Ep. 2 WASN'T better, it was object oriented programming. He used the drag and drop approach to build a mediocrity.

Once again no one on Slashdot is talking about the truth of the situation. Lukas is getting you to pay for a paradigm shift to digital movie making. All he needs is for the movie to be good enough to cover costs. He could probably write off the cost as R&D anyway because that's what he's doing. He is doing a proof of concept for all digital filmmaking. He is not telling a story, He is not making a movie, and he is definitely not making art of any kind.

Re:Does Lucas Know?

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Maddox said it best.

One good thing about Matrix Revolutions: (If you're George Lucas) Knowing that you're not the only one who could screw up an "impossible to screw up" trilogy.

The whole point is to make money

[Moderation abuser]

I.e. to cash in on the success of the original series. It doesn't have to be *good* to do that. It only has to have "Star Wars" in the title.

It'll serve it's purpose. Unless you are planning not to bother going to see it, which as geeks and nerds, I frankly don't believe.

Killing off Jar-Jar

[stephenisu]

Killing off Jar-Jar in the supossed lightsaber duel while surfing on lava scene would help.

Makes sure it's a slow painful death with lots of burning from the lava. Tape his mouth shut too, so I don't need to hear his stupid voice. I say R2D2 should be the one that "accidentily" pushes him in. Cuz R2 is the comic relief pimp.

Re:Killing off Jar-Jar

[Coneasfast]

reminds me of an old comment i read:

Episode III: The Passion of Jar-Jar

it's just 2 hours of jar-jar being beaten.

Sure fire save.

[Sideshow Coward]

Well, call me crazy, but how can surfing on lava not save a movie? Is there a better way short of two car chases in a single movie?

Star warts..

[darkjohnson]

The script is done..they're filming now...too late this franchise has jumped the shark. I think the working title is Darth and Robin...

The sacrifice of saving it isn't worth it.

[xeeno]

If you save episode 3, you lose the result of finally driving a nail into the star wars franchise.

Think of it: one good move after at least 3 crappy sequels. Statistically, if you encourage this jackass to keep on making movies 75% will be shit.

Please. Let it die.

Re:The sacrifice of saving it isn't worth it.

[Hatta]

Think of it: one good move after at least 3 crappy sequels. Statistically, if you encourage this jackass to keep on making movies 75% will be shit.

That's a better average than the rest of hollywood.

It is too late, but...

[Admiral1973]

...there's always the hope that George Lucas will let someone else make more films in the saga. If he insists on making more himself, he could do worse than to rip off Kurosawa. He already did it with Hidden Fortress for the original Star Wars. I just saw The Seven Samurai, and I think that a remake of it, with Jedi instead of the samurai, could be a big hit. Toss in a space battle and some Sith lords instead of the bandits, and you've got yourself a box office winner.

WTF?

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

OK, OK. Ep 1 blew fairly large chunks (it was 90% eye candy and 10% story). Ep2 was rather enjoyable (if you track past eh Padame/Anakin love scenes and the Droid Factory).

Mr. Lucas had this story in his head MANY moons ago. Why in the hell should he not finish his vision?

Disclaimer: Yes, ok, I have high hopes for ep3 even after the mess that 1 and 2 were...

Re:WTF?

[Em Emalb]

Exactly.

It's his story. It seems to me a lot of people around here are damned arrogant.

"Lucas should step down, he's ruining my childhood."

Whatever. Last I checked, no one was forcing anyone to go to these movies.

Let the man do it and if it sucks, well, sorry your childhood was "ruined" by a movie...no one forced you to go to in the first place.

Re:WTF?

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

Why would Obi-Wan mention anything about Quigon? OK, Quigon made Ben (Obi-Wan) swear an oath to make Anakin his Padawan. Fine. That was touched on in "A New Hope" when Obi-Wan was talking with Luke after the Tuskin Raider scene. That's already been covered...

YES

[cubicledrone]

Make it a musical! Use a lot of trendy pop-culture jokes and cliched music. Obi-Wan and Anakin surfing during the lightsaber battle is brilliant! BRILLIANT!

Battlestar Wars Galactica

[Mad Man]

Like Battlestar Galactica , somebody will eventually re-make Star Wars a few decades from now.

In the new version, Luke Skywalker will be a woman...

Re:Battlestar Wars Galactica

[bcolflesh]

In the new version, Luke Skywalker will be a woman...

Lucy Streetwalker?

Re:Battlestar Wars Galactica

[Digital_Quartz]

Was I the only one who instantly thought of the scene where Leia kisses him when they read that?

Re:Battlestar Wars Galactica

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

Nope. Any self-respecting heterosexual guy should have thought of that.

Re:Battlestar Wars Galactica

[SuiteSisterMary]

How it SHOULD have happened.

Saving Ep. 3

[Skyshadow]

The story's pretty much a rehash of what we've all been saying since we were walking out of Episode 1, but it's funny and hard to argue with. This in particular brought a smile to my face:

When Lucas shows up, knock him out, encase him in a block of frozen carbonite and put him out of the way somewhere until the movie is out in theaters.

The only problem being, of course, that you shouldn't let him out after Ep. 3 lest he decide to somehow sully my other fond childhood memories, perhaps by stealing my box of photos and defecating in it.

Anyhow, the article addresses the basic irony of Star Wars: That the guy who created it has also done the most the drive it into the ground, and that success has allowed him to do so more completely than ever. We all knew going in that Lucas can't direct, he can't write dialog, and yet here we go again...

Personally, I just thank God that this decade has had the LOTR trilogy to call its own. It was what we were hoping the new Star Wars movies would be.

None of our business, really

[The Good Reverend]

Note to everyone not named "George Lucus": Star Wars isn't yours. Yes, I know you're a fan. Yes, I know you grew up with these films. But it's a few pieces of entertainment, and the brainchild of another person.

I'm sorry you viewed the first films through the rose-tinted glasses of youth, and are unable to view the latest three in the same way. Feel free to bitch and moan about how it's not up to some mythical "standard" you create, but it comes down to it being Lucus' movie, and he can do as he pleases.

Re:None of our business, really

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry you viewed the first films through the rose-tinted glasses of youth

Uh...my parents were quite old when the first three came out. They loved them. In fact, an awful lot of adults loved them at the time. So many that the term "blockbuster" was invented to describe Star Wars - people loved the first film so much, they would form queues around an entire city block to try to get in.

My parents hated 1 and 2. Lots of people who were adults when 4, 5 and 6 came out hated 1 and 2.

This theory, that 1 and 2 are actually good and some mystical process is making them look bad to people who were children when 4, 5 and 6 came out, is utter nonsense. 1 and 2 are bad films, pure and simple.

Re:None of our business, really

[Schwartzboy]

Note to everyone not named "George Lucus": Star Wars isn't yours.

Boy, will Mr. Lucas be pissed when he hears that.
To quote Chaka Luther King in Jay and Silent Bob Stike Back: "I think George Lucas gonna sue somebody."

*sigh*

Re:None of our business, really

[kin_korn_karn]

The Mona Lisa is painted on a wooden panel.
You must be a real badass.

Re:None of our business, really

[Celvin]

I wouldn't say that Star Wars is Lucas' entirely any more, but instead every fan of the series has ownership of one piece of it.

I call the lightsaber-duel in Cloud City!

Re:None of our business, really

[nine-times]

Every artist, writer, filmmaker, whatever- has to deal with the fact that once they make their work public, it isn't all theirs anymore. By showing it to others, they've sent it out into the world and given it a life of it's own. At that point, the creator can't control my thoughts about the work, and they can't collect royalties on my recollections. The work becomes, subtly, yours, mine, and everyone who sees it.

That's why we have public domain- because we recognize that, although the creator should be rewarded for their talents, at a certain point, the co-ownership of everyone takes precedence.

That's also why you get offended when someone dislikes a movie you love, because they're knocking something that belongs to you. Or, sometimes, when some idiot likes the same movie or song as you do, it can get a little offensive to think that they like it for all the wrong reasons. Not only are you being forced to share ownership, but share it with someone who continuously damages it.

No, this isn't ownership in a legal sense. I can't sue anyone over this. Still, I can think of a lot of great works that I didn't create that I think of as "mine".

If Lucas, or any creative-type, can't deal with this fact, he can go ahead creating, but he should stop releasing the creation to the public and allowing others to view it. It's just the nature of the beast.

Re:None of our business, really

[Progman3K]

> [...] 1 and 2 are actually good and some mystical process is making them look bad [...]

Midi-chlorians, maybe? ;-)

Petition for the Theatrical Release

[faust13]

As always, please remember to sign the petition for the release of the theatrical version on DVD here: http://www.hanshootsfirst.org

bah

[tubbtubb]

Maybe if they removed the surfing scene, or deleted Poochie altogether, everything would be okay.

(Note: Poochie died on the way back to his home planet)

Re:Changes?

[bricriu]

RTFA:

Rip off more Kurosawa
It's no slur on the genuinely great first "Star Wars" that much of the plotline and characterization was lifted straight out of Akira Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress."

He acknowleges it was done and suggests doing it MORE (eg, taking Throne of Blood as the Ep3 model)

Who cares?

[TaxSlave]

I'll go see Episode III for the same reasons I went to see Episodes I and II. It's there. It's more Star Wars. It's a decent enough story, but deep down it's just schlock.

Face it. Episode IV is just a good schlocky Sci-Fi Fantasy that was both fantastic and familiar.

I hated the ewoks about as much as I hate Jar-Jar. It was just cutesy, kiddy crap added to appeal to the younger audience. I tried not to let it destroy the fun of having more Star Wars.

If Episode I was the best Lucas wanted to give us, then that's what I'll take. Episode II was a vast improvement, and I expect Episode III will be good enough for me.

In the meantime, if I want to watch something with real quality, that isn't schlock, I'll watch LOTR.

Too Late

[Diclophis]

If the release date is 1 year from now, the movie is already 3/4s done, all that remains is market testing and franchising. Maybe the community needs to make a entire new movie. Open Film (like open source). We can get together on a script, and with enough people the financing shouldnt be too hard. Why let 'hollywood' have all the fun making the movies.

nope dept?

[aardwolf204]

Can Star Wars Episode III Be Saved?

It is one year away, but is it too late to save Episode III?"

from the nope dept.

Ahh you slashdot editors! Which one is it?

Was it all that bad?

[orion41us]

I was uber disappointed when I saw ep1, and again when I saw ep2.... But watching them several times out side of the theater; they are actually quite good... I think my expectations were set so high for the movies that I never got into them... Although, LOTR did not seam effected by this Phenomenon.

Re:Was it all that bad?

[Sigma 7]

Although, LOTR did not seam effected by this Phenomenon.

It was, but not to the scale of Ep1+2. Most of the complaints were from hardcore fans of the books stating that movie was mangled beyond recognition. Also, the LoTR was aimed at people who thought the books were great masterpieces but never read them - ignorance is bliss. For those who read the books, it looks like an abomination since the story behind the movie was changed.

Star Wars was hit harder because a lot of hard core fans were expecting a lot to come from the movie - and that was the target audience. Appearently, the movie directing used for Episodes 4-6 no longer work as well with creating Episodes 1-3.

Looking back, Episode 5 isn't as good as it could be, since it had scenes removed that referred to the first episode. One such scene is archived here, with the others being a bit more difficult to find. (Hmmm... Slashdot seems to filter out the <humour> tags... Oh well.)

yeah right

[Savatte]

Star Wars will be saved much like how Alderaan was spared by Tarkin in Ep 4.

Re:yeah right

[Paulrothrock]

"Mr. Lucas, the more bad movies you make, the more geeky Star Wars fans will slip through your fingers."

What an odd question...

[M.C. Hampster]

I'm assuming that no one here as seen the finished movie. So how can one ask the question "Can a movie be saved?" before knowing if it needs to even be saved.

Of course, based off episode 1 and 2, I'm guessing Jesus couldn't save the thing...

Re:What an odd question...

[Prince Vegeta SSJ4]

So how can one ask the question "Can a movie be saved?" before knowing if it needs to even be saved.Because, I feel a tremor in the Force. It's as if thousands of voice cried out "Han Did not Shoot First", then suddenly went silent.

hire brin!!!

[evenprime]

Yes, it could be saved. Fire lucas, hire David Brin. His misguided/evil Yoda plot line is brilliant. He's correct when he says, "Almost the entire list of awful coincidences and silly paradoxes can be eliminated...It could even go down in history as something profoundly moral and clever."

I already told several people that I will not be seeing Ep III because Brin's conclusion to the series is so much better than anything Lucas could come up with.

Re:hire brin!!!

[Mordaximus]

I read through this site after seeing the link and it is great. And I actually noticed something that didn't really stick (mostly because of the time between the movies I think.)

"But then ROTJ and TPM went much farther, spreading an outright lie that tipped over into madness, claiming the following... that the mere act of getting angry AT evil will TURN you evil! David Brin.

What i realised was : Luke beat Vader in Jedi, after he got angry that Vader mentioned Leia. AND, Obi-Wan only beat Darth Maul, after he got angry about Qui-Gon (you can see it in his face, and his agression during the fight.)

So while Lucas professes the anger leads down the path to the dark side : his heros end up using this tool to fulfill their good deeds...

What I think Is Up?

[EXTomar]

I said this during the poll so its slightly appropriate.

I think the major problem with P1 and P2 is that they are mearly action stories set in a Star Wars setting. Just like any game, just tossing well known characters into well known settings and expect something cool to come out is a recipe for disaster.

As I mention in my poll post, Yoda is less interesting in P1 & 2. Yoda is an action figure here. In P5, he did not once pick up a lightsaber or show Luke anything about fighting. Instead he guided him as best he could with ideas of what Jedi are based on: The force is everwhere, the force is your ally, the dark side is terrible but not stronger.

P3 needs some TLC in the themes and ideology department. It is amusing but the most "humanizing" moments of P5 were between Luke and Yoda. In P1 and P2 you get a vague indication that bad people are doing bad things. Why are the things they are doing all that bad? Because the Republic says so? Why are the Sith guys so bad? Because they look mean and chop people in half and do cool choke moves?

With P1-3 it looks like they are looking for a story to put SFX up on the screen. In P4-6, the SFX grew out of the story. If the movie is all but done in post production there is little that can be done now except ride the lava wave.

The series was ALWAYS supposed to be pulp.

[Speare]

The whole Star Wars franchise was always, from day one, supposed to be a pulp "Saturday Matinee" sort of pulp serial.

It has a campy, heavily derivative space opera story line. It's been pieced together with black and white heroes and villains, both of which make the audience boo and giggle at the same time.

To fix one is to break the series. Most die-hard Star Wars fans are fans because they were kids when they saw the originals. Hell, many of you weren't even BORN to watch the original in the theaters in 1977. The series hangs together precisely because it is all schlock, and yet we love the characters anyway.

Re:The series was ALWAYS supposed to be pulp.

[silicon not in the v]

Exactly. The campiness was what made it fun. It's the taking itself too seriously and trying to make it high drama that's killing it.

Instead of dumb stuff like:
Amidala: I have to tell you I truly, deeply love you.

We had:
Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han: I'm nice men.

Joseph Campbell

[wayne606]

Minor points: (1) Joseph Campbell died in 1987, and (2) the interview series with Bill Moyers was basically sponsored by George Lucas, was filmed on Skywalker Ranch, and includes lots of footage from Star Wars. I think Lucas is pretty explicit about his influences here.

Saved, Episode III can be

[Prince Vegeta SSJ4]

Steps:

• Get a new director
• Show why the hell Vader and Obi Wan are not nearly as powerful in 4,5,6 as they are in 1 & 2 (maybe the lack of Jedi and Sith lower the powers of the force as an aggregate)
• Show the hunting down & destruction of the Jedi

or do like the 80's show Dallas and have it all be a dream sequence and make a Good Movie for a change.

Its too EARLY!!

[Robmonster]

Its far too early to save it.

I reckon I'll be 'saving' it to a couple of CD-Roms in about a years time....

RM

Why is everyone so critical?

[xRelisH]

One interesting thing I've found about people who tend to be tough critics with movies is that they tend to lose out on the "fun".

By that I mean, what is the loss of actually enjoying a bad movie? What's the gain of hating it? I think I find myself rather lucky to enjoy most movies, even if they suck ( I was even able to stomach the Super Mario Bros Movie ). That way I rarely come out of a theatre feeling ripped off. And just because you enjoyed a bad movie doesn't mean you can't appreciate the good ones as much as everyone else.

I've come to really appreciate movies like Memento and Shrek.

So, does anyone care to explain the loss of enjoying a bad movie? I personally enjoyed EPI and EPII, although I didn't think they were the best movies on earth, I didn't come out the theatre with the obligatory "worst movie ever".

I've got two words for Lucas

[Anonymous Coward]

Talking Pie.

They'll forget all the mistakes of the past if you add such a character.

Kurosawa

[jetkust]

I'm a Kurosawa fan myself. I just want to clear things up. I've been hearing a lot about the origional Star Wars "ripping off" Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress. The article says the entire story was lifted from that movie. Have any of you seen the Hidden Fortress? Sure Lucas was inspired by that movie, but Star Wars is nothing like The Hidden Fortress.

As far as the article. I agree that Hayden Christensen is terrible as Dart Vadar. As well as most of his other points, especially the typical overuse of cgi effects which made me feel as if i was watching an videogame cut-scene the whole time. But one that he forgot to mention is the unbelievably forgetable characters who populate the script.

Star Wars Bloat

[Ridgelift]

Eric Raymond best explains why the Star Wars prequels are failing in his description of computer systems:

There's a phenomenon we call second-systems syndrome, where you design an early system that does 80 percent of the job. It's fairly lightweight, and you notice all the things you should have done Then you go back for the second system, and often there's a tendency to go overboard to the point where it collapses under its own weight.

Episode's I and II is all about boring politics and unimaginative character origins. IV and V was all about Luke and Darth and their surrounding characters. If III is to survie, it's got to be more about the Star Wars characters and less about the Star Wars universe.

Lucas too possessive to let someone else try

[GuyMannDude]

Lucas will never allow anyone to do anything with Star Wars. In fact, his best buddy Steven Spielberg has already spoken about this. Lucas feels that the Star Wars saga will be his legacy and he doesn't want anyone messing with it. Spielberg practially begged Lucas for a chance to direct a Star Wars film and Lucas said no. So I can't see Lucas willingly giving up control to anyone. And with the new copyright laws, his family will be able to control Star Wars indefinitely. So you can forget about a Star Wars film ever being made by anyone with talent.

GMD

It's Lucas' money to make it ...

[chopkins1]

It only needs saving in the eyes of the viewer who hasnt seen it yet.

It's not your baby to save... it belongs to Lucas. He's fronting the money for the movie... It is his vision, his masterpiece, therefore it is his to destroy or save.

I'm inclined to believe that in his eyes he is doing the story justice.

Besides, you're going to go see it anyway. Why whine about it until afterwards?

Original Star Wars like the Beatles

[daBass]

Like the Beatles started an important new trend for popular music, were masters of the genre, and left people in amazement, so too did Star Wars for sci-fi/action movies. When they came out, there was nothing like it and there wasn't anything that quite matched it for a long time as well.

Look at the Beatles now, while they should be reconized for what they did, most of the music itself hasn't aged well and the few gems that are there don't sparkle any more than current music. And don't get me started on Paul McCartney recent work!

Similarly, if you look objectively at the "original 3", without thinking of how you were amazed the first time you saw them, they are not that good when it comes to story line either. Just compare the little ape-men to Jar-Jar and his people, the rubish compressor to the droid factory and the whole Luke/Leia relationship to the Amakin and queen Armadillo one....

The truth is that there is so much out there these days that is as visualy spectecular, we care about a good story line again. In my opinion the new movies aren't any worse than the old ones, they just aren't _better_, and that is what people, without realizing it, are really expecting.

At the end of the day, they are damn good entertainment if you ask me, and that's what counts.

Re:Original Star Wars like the Beatles

[Dr_LHA]

Look at the Beatles now, while they should be reconized for what they did, most of the music itself hasn't aged well and the few gems that are there don't sparkle any more than current music. The "few gems"? I take it non of the moderators of this comment have ever listened to The Beatles then? Its hard to adequately explain how wrong the top poster here is. Sure the early work of the Beatles may be showing its age, but pretty much anything from Help! onwards any band worth its salt would kill to be able to write/perform today. If you had said the Bay City Rollers I might have agreed with your analogy. Like Star Wars they too were very popular with "the kids" in the 70s and in actual fact were commercial (although enjoyable) pap.

Am I in the minority?

[wturky]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I actually LIKED the first two movies. Granted, Phantom Menace didn't exactly rise to the level of Empire Strikes Back, but it was still an alright movie. I didn't really see anything wrong with Episode II - I actually enjoyed it a lot.

You would think from all the ranting and raving you always see on here that I'm in the minority, but well, you know.....those two films DID make a LOT of money..... So, SOMEONE out there must have liked them because they sure spoke with their wallets. *shrug*

I dunno. Sometimes I think people had some unrealistic expectations of the prequels, based on memories of movies they saw as kids 20 years ago. Imagine yourself as the same kid from 20 years ago watching the two prequels and I'd be willing to bet you'd have liked it a lot better than you do now as an adult.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth....

-Ken

Giving Kurosawa his due

[Anonymous Coward]

I better go watch "The Hidden Fortress" first. Seeing a movie that copied the original not only misleads me to believe that they wrote it but it also dilutes the value of seeing the original Kurosawa film for the first time.

For example:
"Yojimbo" - Fistful of Dollars
"Sanjuro" - For a Few Dollars More
"Seven Samurai" - 13th Warrior, Three Amigos

I may be too late though. They say that parts of "Hidden Fortress" were copied in Star Wars IV:
Newsgroup Posting
Maybe that would explain why the prequels don't compare.. he's run out of other plots to pay homage to?

Midochlorians (sp?)

[ddelrio]

It was ruined as soon as the Midochlorians came into the picture. If that's all that matters, why didn't Yoda just give Luke a blood transfusion before facing Vader? He could have pumped up those midochlorians before Luke's encounter.

Lucas took all the magic out of Star Wars. He actually managed to go back in time and ruin the original three episodes with his pseudo-scientific explanation. And the new stuff stinks. As much as I hate the Jar-Jar character, I sympathised with him when he stepped in that pile of sh*t. That's exactly how I felt while watching Episode III.

He doesn't like criticism

[GuyMannDude]

Oh, Lucas knows that people don't like what he's done. The problem is that he thinks they are all wrong and doesn't want to hear it. In fact, CNN was refused access to Attack of the Clones based on a Connie Chung interview where she told Lucas that most people thought TPM was a disappointment. If you're going to kick the media off your property and deny them access to a major news story just because they suggested that the film didn't live up to expectations, I don't think you can honestly claim that you're open to criticism.

As far as his "reputation as a filmmaker", I think Lucas must realize now that he really isn't a filmmaker. He knows that Star Wars will be his legacy. So he really doesn't care about looking like some kind of great director because he knows he'll never direct again. That's probably one reason he's so possessive of the films -- he knows this is the last movie he'll ever direct.

GMD

Expectations too high kill any chance of enjoyment

[eggsurplus]

People have set unattainable expectations on what Star Wars should be. Nothing that could ever be made would ever quench their thirst.

Instead of going into a movie with preconceived notions of what you think it should be (this hardly ever works with anything) go into the movie with an open mind and just enjoy the damn show for once! Over-critiquing just takes the fun out.

Sure it can

[lightspawn]

You just right click, then select 'save as'.

Too late?

[bo0ork]

Isn't it too late to "save" it? IMDB lists it as being in post-production already.

I would like to see remake of 4,5,6

[jeoin]

I love the classics, they are timeless. I think it would be nice to see them all redone so that the series could continue without changing actors again.

Not better or worse, different

[WillAtMH]

I have ben a huge fan of the SW movies since I was a kid and saw them i a theater. I followed the universe and looked forward to the new movies.

The general story form the original 3 movies is rediculously thin. The original Matrix put more plot in that single film than was in ep4, ep5, and ep6 combined. That didnt make them suck... it made them simple and fun.

In the prequels, he added a story line, political complexities, and actual character development - all of which was completely abscent in the originals. While they may not be "better" in the sense that the style changes made them mode fun to watch, but they are certainly not garbage. They are simply different types of movies. They only get condemned because of peoples memories of how much they loved SW back in the late 70s and early 80s.

SW has always been made for 12 year olds to love. The new movies accomplish exactly the same thing the originals did... only this time you arent 12.

Re:Not better or worse, different

[ImpTech]

> In the prequels, he added a story line, political complexities, and actual character development - all of which was completely abscent in the originals.

WTF?! Okay, I'll admit the "Evil Galactic Empire" is not a complicated political concept. But as for the rest... character development? What character development? The fact that Anakin gets older does not constitute character development! And as for story line, other than the political overtones (the ONLY good thing about the prequels), there is no more story in the new trilogy than the old. Heck, I'd argue there's less. I can hardly remember the reasons for all the various action scenes in episodes 1 & 2, particularly 2.

I don't mind a simple movie as long as its entertaining. The prequels just aren't. And I don't think age has much to do with it.

Star Wars != Hidden Fortress

[jbs0902]

Star Wars is barely related to the Hidden Fortress.

Hidden Fortress:
Two peasant farmers are refugees, trying to return home after a war. They find gold, and join with a mysterious powerful-looking man and a mysterious beautiful girl. Together they attempt to smuggle the gold across the border and evade capture.

Star Wars:
Farmboy Luke Skywalker finds more than he bargained for when he gains possession of two androids, who lead him on the adventure of his life to save a beautiful princess, befriend a devil-may-care space smuggler, and save the galaxy from the evil clutches of Darth Vader. Tutored by the mysterious Obi Wan Kenobi, Luke must "Learn the ways of the Force" and destroy the Death Star.

Key differences:
There is a powerful virile General (Mifune) in HF. In SW you have an aged magician (Kenobi) and an untrained boy (Luke).
In HF the princess is on the run to an allied province. In SW, the princess is captured and must be rescued.
In HF, the whole point is to get the princess safely to the allied province. In SW, the whole point is to blow up the Death Star.
SW has super powers (The Force). In HF, everyone is obvious merely human.
SW is a much more action oriented affair. HF is based more upon the interaction between the characters.

Similarities:
There is a princess in both.
There is a comic relief duo in both. SW, the droids. HF, the peasant farmers.

I know Lucas wants to compare himself to Kurosawa but he really copied 30s movie serials, not Hidden Fortress. About the only thing he took from HF is the comedy duo.

Also, Hidden Fortress really isn't Kurosawa's best work. Rashômon, Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, and even Ran are far surperior to Hidden Fortress. However, they are much better known and Lucas wouldn't have been able to get away with claiming ripping them off.

Star Wars: A New Blockbuster

[naubol]

Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I see the Star Wars prequels as relatively successful and entertaining. While it has its serious faults, ones which I am quite displeased by, the overall series of movies is spectacular.

I acknowledge the common mistakes, haydenson is not a very good vader, several actors are not doing their best work, jar jar blew, bad dialog, a few stupid plot lines, some bs about midichlorians, on and on. But, with the exception of haydenson, I think these things are all largely forgivable.

Shut your ears to the "science" behind the jedi, let jar jar do what he does best, and that is be a foil for other actors, forgive the bad acting, and you have an entertaining flick.

To me, as a child, the greatest aspect of the star wars movies was the larger than life set of the universe. The huge battles, the lightsabers, the uber jedi, the excitement and anticipation of a large showdown between good and evil, etc. All of this is preserved. The space scenes are fantastic, as are the sets. Everything visual about this movie is just gorgeous to look at. The huge war in Attack of the Clones was breathtaking.

Enter, exhibit A, my little brother. Throughout both movies he was in awe. He was practically jumping out of his seat the whole time. For episode 3, I recommend you look around yourself in the theater at the little kids. Don't you remember doing what they were doing when you saw the movie?

Enter, Exhibit B, the money. The box office money is not coming from bitter fans, don't kid yourself. People are going to see these movies multiple times. You elitists can scoff that its people who don't know any better and who aren't good enough for movies, but thats a steaming pile of excrement. It is families with kids, it is teenagers, and the like in my opinion who are going to this. I enjoy a good drama movie with great acting and good plot, but I also enjoy an action / adventure space-opera. I saw adults getting ultra excited about these movies, too. When I went to watch Attack of the Clones for the *second* time the day it was released in my city, I was waiting in line with other people who had already seen it once. Those people aren't going back to remind themselves of how godawful the movie was. They are going back because they enjoyed it.

Enter, Exhibit C, yoda's fight scene. This was not the only scene that garnered a huge reaction among people in the theater when I saw the movies. But this scene was one of the most engendering. Cat calls, whistles, and general "yo go yoda, kick his ass", were what people said. People were engaged and they remained engaged throughout the scene. When christopher lee chickened out, people boo'd.

I'm glad my brother doesn't read slashdot otherwise he'd be asking me, why do those people not like star wars? And I'd have to explain to him, well some people require science fiction movies with silly and fictional devices to somehow make sense and be these all important dramatic movies. (a la matrix). The mystery of it, was its charm. We were free to imagine why the jedi could do what they did. I think people expect all these answers from the prequels and you aren't going to get them. What you get is set up work for episodes 4-6. And the answers come from *those* movies. You get leia's love of solo, you get a father's love for his son squashing his tyrranical ways, and you get the ultimate control freak (the emporer) to die a horrible death. Freedom and the little guys conquer the large, evil empire of control.

You still get emotional moments from the prequels, the death of anakin's mother, anakin having to leave his mother, the loss of his arm, the rift between anakin and obi wan, etc. I think they're designed to be stress inducing, which they are. The movie successfully makes you feel an impending doom for everyone involved.

The only trully sad thing about the prequels is that there is no equivalent to Harrison Ford. Maybe if they let samuel jackson get a bit more scre

Re:Didn't Get Any Attention??

[ScottGant]

you would remember it was all the rage *before* it was released

Actually, the original Star Wars was a sleeper. Meaning that it didn't get released with a lot of fanfair in May of 1977. It came out of no where. They didn't have a lot of cash left over for advertising the movie. You have to remember, they didn't thik this was really going to work and it only cost 9 million to make. Even in 1977, 9 million wasn't a lot of money to make a movie.

Only after it became a hit that summer did all the hype build about it through the only means of the day, word of mouth.

Re:Lame Jedis

[vidarh]

Because if they didn't get their asses kicked all the time, there would be plenty of them left at the end of the series, which we already know isn't the case?

Re:Didn't Get Any Attention??

[Fearless Freep]

Star Wars *became* a phenomenon *after* it was released, but nobody was really getting all that excited about it before the release.

Re:Didn't Get Any Attention??

[rworne]

Thanks for making me feel old. Episode IV was very popular among my friends and I at the time when we were 10 or so years old.

We had quite sophisticated tastes back then:
Saturday morning cartoons
Bicycles
Peterbuilt/Kenworth/MAC big-rig trucks & CB radios
Hotwheel/Matchbox car collecting
Catching insects and lizards
Tormenting the red ant nest at school
Planet of the Apes (all of them) along with SWAT/Emergency!/6 Million Dollar Man were the best of Hollywood, and KISS was the best musical band.

Is it any wonder as adults we see these films differently?

There is only one man who can now save Star Wars.

[lawpoop]

Gennady Tartakovsky, creator of Dexter's Laboratory, Samurai Jack, and the Clone Wars Cartoon Channel series.

Help us, Gennady, you're our only hope.

One Person's Opinion

[solarlux]

One thing I can't help wondering is if many people form a final opinion about the movies that is based on the loud public sentiment. My reaction to Star Wars 1 and 2 is that I loved them. The sci-fi backgrounds and effects were impressive, the action scenes intense, and the storyline was palatable. And I found several scenes to be quite memorable -- to name a few: the Obi-Wan/Darth Maul fight, the Yoda fight, and the huge jedi battle.

So yeah, I'm committing the unimaginable sin -- I liked Star Wars 1 and 2. Am I a stupid person? My career achievements would speak otherwise. Is my taste inferior? Perhaps, although the only thing I give a damn about is whether or not *I* enjoyed it. Am I unable to recognize poor-acting and plot-holes? No, I was cognizant of it all. Anakan and Amidala were cheesy (although I still love to say "you're making fun of me" in that cheesy tone to my wife to which she replies in an reciprocally cheesy tone: "I'd be much to frightened..."). However, I also juxtapose the shortcomings against the composite package of the movie. And in the case of Star Wars 1 and 2, the positive elements outweighed the negative ones to provide me a viewing experience which surpassed that of most movies.

And here's my main gripe -- I think there are others like me, who honestly enjoyed the movies when they were sitting in the theatre seats. But then, the popular and intellectually respectable position came to be that you were "absolutely miserable" during the movies. I mean, only a complete idiot could actually enjoy those movies, right?

All I ask is for you to consider this: at the time of your viewing -- were you enjoying the movie? If you were miserable, fine -- then the movies didn't jive with your refined taste. But if your hatred for the movies didn't develop until you read the comments on three dozen slashdot articles, then consider whether or not you are speaking your own opinions. Be honest enough to admit you enjoy what you enjoy. If you like Enterprise, great. If Farscape and FireFly raised your standards high enough that you can no longer enjoy Star Trek, then that's fine too. If the Matrix 3 plot resolution left a foul taste in your mouth (as it did for me), then live it. Just live your own opinions. I'm sure many critics out there genuinely hated the movies -- but I also believe there are many more who initially did not.

Success, Ego and Marketing...

[endofoctober]

Lucas has pretty much dug his own grave when it comes to the SW franchise - I think early on it was his ego demanding "bigger/better/faster/more" which produced some truly good movie moments.

But then the terms for 'success' shifted from making 'good' films to making 'profitable' films. I think he knew that marketing would have to take a more important role in his decisions for the newer films in order for them to be considered more'successful' than its predecessor. As Ep1 and 2 showed, the marketing Lucas overtook the filmmaker Lucas. It's like he's his own Darth Vader - succumbing to the Dark Side where dollars are king.

Unfortunately, when you're George Lucas, your ego tells you that anything you decide must be the right thing. How could he go wrong?...he's George Lucas! He did Star Wars! That being the case, I think Ep3 will be the train wreck many of us expect.

I skipped seeing Ep2 in the theater, and will do the same for 3. I felt with the original trilogy there was a reason to go see these films on the big screen, but now I see more reasons to wait until it's rentable a few months after being released to DVD.

A little bubble-bursting from the mouth of babes..

[cherokee158]

There seems to be an underlying assumption by a lot of guys here that Episodes 1 and 2 were enjoyable only by children under 10.

Wrong.

I have two hardcore Star Wars fans aged 7 and 8, and they hated those movies. They hated the plodding plotlines, the goofy looking spaceships and the crappy merchandising that resulted.

See for yourself. Go to a toy store. Tons of Episode 1 and 2 toys in the clearance bin. X-Wings still selling strong.

The only redeeming qualities they seemed to find in the new movies was the Pod Race (which the movie bent painfully over backwards to somehow turn into a plot point) and, sadly, Jar-Jar Binks, who young children find amusing and will even take great pains (yours) to imitate. Although they still want to be Darth Vader on Halloween.

The latter day episodes just plain suck. Even kids will tell you that.

and you thought you were gonna get flamed...

[reverendG]

I think that, by looking at the current US govt, it's easy to see that PLENTY of people are stupid enough to give evil power. All the power it wants.

Let the flames begin.

Re:no. (offtopic)

[jkabbe]

Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kershner and written Leigh Brackett (a master of pulp SF and Ray Bradbury's mentor) and Lawrence Kasdan. Some would argue that it is the best movie sequels ever made.

Except those people forgot that the title was later taken by Aliens.

Right vs. Fight - The sad truth of the matter...

[TheTXLibra]

First, my disclaimer. I despise what George Lucas did with Eps 1 and 2. Now, the sad truth...

1. It's history, not his story : George gave us 3 (2 if you don't count Return of the Jedi) great movies that did something no other movie had before. It gave the idea of a space movie new depth and dimension that cause such a great deal of sensawunda it developed its own cult following. This wasn't just some plucky group of adventurers in some rocket, and tin-foil robots anymore. It was a slice of life and events spanning an entire galaxy, with entire stories behind the characters untold. It was, at the time, the greatest outer-space Sci-Fi movie ever. It was a new era in filmmaking history. No one else had done this before... but a lot have done it since. The story wasn't his, it was Kurasowa's. Before Kurasowa it was someone else's... The story was another rehash of many stories. We who originally saw it in the theatres have claimed it was one of the best stories ever, but perhaps the truth is that it was the first time we ever felt true sensawunda on the big screen. Now, over 20 years later, special effects have become so grand as to numb us. Low budget sci-fi network shows can get better effects than the original, yet they fail to impress us because we are innundated with them everywhere from web-pages to TV commercials, to TV, to movies. Is it any wonder that nothing a mediocre talent like Lucas could produce would ever evoke that same feeling as the original?
2. I hate what Hitler did, but he still ended up ruling most of Europe: No, I don't think Lucas is Hitler. I may dislike his style, but he never committed an atrocity worse than Eps 1 and 2. My point is this... we can complain as much as we want to about how Lucas did things wrong in the new triliogy, but the fact remains that:
   1. He is rich, and we are not.
   2. He became rich off his films, and his new movies made him richer.
   3. We do not live in a Meritocracy. If we did, he'd be Whuffie poor. We live in a Capitolist state that values accomplishment by the money it makes. Ergo, technically, he did good.
   4. Even if he were dirt poor, I am assuming that he's still managed to get more movies produced and released than any of us here, which is an astounding feat in and of itself.
3. Rights make Right: Lucas owns the rights to Star Wars. If he wanted to, he could have chosen to do much worse. He could have decided to yank the original off the shelves, replace R2 and 3P0 with the Wayans Brothers, Solo with Jim Carey, and put Elen Degeneress as the Princess. Darth Vader could have been played by LL Cool J, and Obi could be played by Woody Allen. Instead of light sabers, maybe they would use Pokemon duels... it could have been worse... ludicrously so. At least he made a vague attempt to remain in a similar universe as the originals. Sure he may have crapped all over his own work, but at least he didn't ruin the originals...yet... (for the record, I did enjoy Spaceballs)
4. An infinite number of monkeys with typewriters: Someday, something will elicit the same sensawunda as the 3 originals did. In fact, I believe for many, the LotR series already did so. In another 20-30 years, it will be something else. Perhaps a Western.

So while I hate the new episodes, I can appreciate the original 3 to this day, and am still thankful for them.

-TheTXLibra
"You've got no kids, no wife, no job, and you're not in The Tigger Movie!!!"
- my best friend's son, Gabe, at 5 years old.

You don't have to go

[Animats]

So don't go. I haven't seen any of the Star Wars movies since #3 or so, which is about when they started to suck.

The embarassing thing about the whole Star Wars series is that nobody else has done much better space opera. It's been a quarter century, after all. The special effects problems have all been solved. There are franchises out there, in the space opera genre alone, with more potential. David Weber's Honor Harrington series, or the Man-Kzin Wars, to cite two good examples. Yet the industry is bringing back Battlestar Galactica, which, in its day, was generally considered lousy. And turning about four big-budget vampire movies per year.

Meanwhile, effort should be devoted to insuring that Star Wars III merchandise is biodegradeable, so there's no major disposal problem like last time.

Look at the word "own" a bit

[Cappy Red]

Look at the word "own" as it pertains to investors in the stock market. Some yokel buys one share of Finkel Widget. He now owns Finkel Widget -- one share of it. What does this give him the rights to do? Cast one vote in shareholder meetings, and complain in them, and that's about it. He has a different type of ownership than the bruiser that has forty percent of the stock.

It's like the word "love." People love each other. People also love cars, foods, computers and dancing. Different, but related, concepts under the umbrella of one word.

So when you experience something, you do take a certain kind of ownership in it. You did not put in money, like our yokel investor, but invested your time instead. Your time, and perhaps your emotions. On something like a movie, or a building you walk by every day on the way to work, this gives you one very small share in the object. You bought your rights to complain, but nobody has to listen.

(many thanks to Gabe at Penny Arcade for having that wonderful thought on the word "love")

*honk*

Re:Didn't Get Any Attention??

[Sporkinum]

Absolutely correct. I remember the ads in the papers as being the small ones. It wasn't until after it had been out for a while it got big.

Harrison Ford

[sleepingsquirrel]

If you put the original starwars movies under the same microscope, it sucks just as much as eps 1 and 2 did.

You're almost right. The only redeeming factor for original movies is commanding performance of Harrison Ford. Image taking the original movies and cutting Mr. Ford from every scene. I think we could all agree the suck quotient for these new Episodes 4-6 would equal that of Ep. 1 & 2. Here's another way of looking at it. Figure out what percentage of movies that Lucas directed are crappy. Now compare that with the percentage of movies starring Harrison that are crappy. Who comes out on top? (Be sure to subtract out the intersection of movies directed by Mr. Lucas and movies with Mr. Ford before calculating the percentages)

If....

[merciless]

If James Cameron directs - the android army would now become an unstoppable machine dealing death and destruction throughout the galaxy. Padme will the woman destined to save the future of Jedi-kind, and a jedi who can see the future comes to help her while an evil Sith is assigned solely in killing her. The Sith will have the best lines likes "stick around" or "bye, hand". Various gigantic nuclear explosions will take place and at least one cool chase scene that shows the unstoppable power of some type of large mechanical object. Many scenes will be lit with blue lighting and the whole movie will be rated R.

Francis Ford Coppola - most of the leaders of various planets will be paying homage to the Sith lord in a dark room while italian music plays in the background. There will be a violent ambush that kills most of the jedis with the kills paying one last bit of disrespect by kicking the dead jedi bodies as they leave. Padme told Annie that she had an abortion (she didn't).

Steven Spielberg - more Han Solo! He'll make it up as he goes along.

David Fincher - Anakin slowly degrades as he commits each one of the 7 deadly sins. There's no such thing as the sith lords. Everything happens in a monochromatic/dark/rainy setting, even at the climatic battle over the lava rain would be pouring down, meeting the lava violently with a lot of hissing. Anakin will finally turn evil when Padme's head arrives via GalaxyXpress in a box.

Merchant Ivory - There would be a lot of chit-chat over tea, in conferences, and everyone will be speaking with an english accent. Action set pieces will be small and subtle and most of the scenes will involve the emotional (or lack thereof) aftermath, showing the consequences of killing all the jedis/destroying planets/saying goodbye to Padme. Alas, it will be a bittersweet ending.

Re:Didn't Get Any Attention??

[anonicon]

"Actually, the original Star Wars was a sleeper. Meaning that it didn't get released with a lot of fanfair in May of 1977."

I was 12 and growing up in Columbus Ohio before the movie came out in May 1977, and I can tell you that it definitely a *huge* deal, marketing or no marketing.

I was pulled out of school early so that we could go see it on its opening day near where I lived on the east side. By the time we pulled into the driving lot of this huge 1-screen theater, there was a loooooong line forming outside the doors, so I was pushed out of the car to stand in line while the car was parked. :-)

Call me silly, but 1-3 block lines of people standing outside the theater before the first show don't strike me as symptoms of a sleeper.

Chuck

Han Solo And The Skywalker Twins.

[RatBastard]

The character of Luke was originally supposed to be a woman. I had a portfolio of production paintings from Star Wars ("A New Hope" for you youngin's) and there are several pictures where Luke's character was painted as a woman.

And it certainly would have changed the whole love-triangle dynamic. Instead of Lucas copping out by making Luke and Leia (sp?) brother and sister, it could have been lucky Han Solo and the Skywalker Twins!

Re:Han Solo And The Skywalker Twins.

[raygundan]

"lucky Han Solo and the Skywalker Twins"

Don't give the Olsen franchise any more ideas.

missing ingredient

[garymcg]

Star Wars III, and every movie currently playing in theaters, coule be improved by the addtion of Orcs. Ask yourself, what would be a funnier movie, "Johnson Family Vacation" or "Orc Family Vacation?"

Wouldn't "Troy" be more exciting if the Trojan Horse opened up and Uruk-Hai came pouring out? Wouldn't "Passion of the Christ" be more interesting if the Orcs were marching Christ to be crucified, got a little peckish, ripped Jesus limb from limb and ate him before they got there?

Star Wars vs. Star Trek

[Sheepdot]

I'm not a space geek so it outta mean something when I say I'd rather watch another Star Trek movie than Episode 3. And as annoying as they are, trekkies are much better company than the rabid Lucas and Star Wars freaks.

Here's a tip for both: when presented with a paradox, it is okay to say, "Yeah, Lucas/Roddenberry was on crack when he thought of that."

You're both wrong!

[trezor]

There is no Jar Jar (*cough*) in episodes IV, V and VI.

That means that JarJar will be killed in episode 3. I'll pay to see that!

Re:You're both wrong!

[blincoln]

That means that JarJar will be killed in episode 3.

Sadly, no.

Apparently there was a rogue faction at ILM that came up with a sub-plot for Episode III that would have let Jar-Jar redeem himself through some sort of sacrifice that ended up leaving him dead, but Lucas nixed it.

A four-word prediction for the OT DVD release: Gungans in the Cantina. "Meesa have the death penalty on twelve systems!"

Re:You're both wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

>I'm calling bullshit on your story. Industrial Light and Magic is a separate entity from Lucas' creative branch (Lucasfilm). ILM is solely responsible for special effects, not making story contributions.

I call bullshit on yours. George Lucas has no creative branch. mwaha. mwahahaah.

Re:You're both wrong!

[ewn]

...only to step out of the shower in Episode VII, telling us that IV,V, and VI were only a dream.

Re:You're both wrong!

[Guppy06]

"There is no Jar Jar (*cough*) in episodes IV, V and VI."

Jaba and (especially) Bobba Fett weren't in IV, at least not the first time around. If Lucas can make Greedo shoot first, I'm sure he can squeeze Jar Jar into the re-re-re-re-remastering of IV, V and IV.

Touchy, touchy

[Gzip Christ]

To whomever moderated my original post as flamebait, I think you may have misunderstood my comparison of Bush to Jar Jar binks. I was not insinuating that they are both bumbling idiots, I merely meant that they both have floppy ears and funny accents.

Filming over...

[MP3Chuck]

Hasn't Episode III been in post-production for the past 6 months (and will be for the next 12)? Kind of late to save it now...

small town effect?

[SethJohnson]

I'm not trying to disrespect Columbus, or you. But please try to remember that back then smaller towns didn't get movies until after they had shown in the bigger towns and cities. I'm guessing that by the time it got to Columbus, it had already proven itself in the bigger cities and the hype preceded it in Columbus on TV and in the newspaper. You had seen images of the long lines in the bigger cities, so when Star Wars was released in Columbus, everybody wanted to see what it was all about, and bingo! Long lines!

The ironic aspect of this is that Luke basically lived in a rural community, also. So Luke was probably also used to not 'getting stuff' until other planets had already gotten it. I grew up in a small town, also, so I'm pretty in-tune with how pre-walmart distribution worked and how you'd see stuff on TV that kids in other places got, but we wouldn't get for another six or more months.

Re:Better Loves to Betray

[chris_mahan]

Yeah, you big jedi, future emperor, kills jarjar... Easy kill. to easy.

I say that makes the future anakin look weak.

I suggests he has jarjar tried and executed as traitor when he good-naturedly tries to warn somebody about some impending doom.

That would be more in line.

Anakin kills the remainder of the jedi council, yet escape yoda does.

Amidala returns to naboo when she finds out she's pregrant. The births are secret, the kids are raised by truested friends. She dies mysteriously (by anakin, who is now in the dark side for sure), and the two children are spirited away... Luke to tattoine because that's where Irish boy kenobi went to hide... Besides, the planet is poor, out of the way, and controlled by the Hutt... And that leaves everyone where they need to be for episode 1.

Anyway. The movie is going to suck horribly.

It will probably be worse than Troy...

come -on-.

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

Growing up I lived and breathed Star Wars. I'd hang upside-down from the jungle gym and try really really hard to get a stick to fly from the ground to my hand like Luke getting his lightsaber when he's hanging upside down in the cave at the beginning of Empire. Obi-Wan Kenobi was the zen master to whom we all aspired. I hated the Ewoks, though, just as I later hated Jar-Jar.

But I still found things to enjoy in Episode I. Sure, you had midichlorians and other stupid stuff, bad child acting and just bad acting in general from some of the principals. But you also had Darth Freakin' Maul, double-lightsaber and all, dueling about and kicking double Jedi ass (until his ridiculous, not-believable demise). You had Liam Neeson giving a very solid performance as Obi-Wan's mentor.

And I still found things to enjoy in Episode II. Sure, you had more Jar-Jar "meesa want" and more boring imperial senate nonsense, and more wooden acting from some of the principals. But you also had Jango Fett, and in the end Yoda goes ape-shit on Christopher Lee. Yeah it was ridiculous and half of me wanted to laugh at the scene... but the other half was too busy going "HOLY SH!T LOOK AT YODA GO."

I don't care if I'm called "Soft" or whatever for actually admitting what most people seem to be too up-tight, too wannabe Goth, too whatever to admit: I LIKE THE STAR WARS MOVIES.

Get over yourselves. Write your own damn universe of characters and make your own damn movies about them. Leave Lucas alone. Yeah some of it is crap, most of the acting is horrible... but there are some fun things in there and I personally can't wait to see how it all "begins/ends" with Episode III.

So there. I've said it. Call me a poser, fanboy, whatever. At least I'm not a little whiny arrogant "my sh!t smells better than yours" film critic or one of these ever-popular "I hate everything" kids of today.

Dissecting Lucas's Success & Failure

[catdevnull]

George Lucas scored a huge hit with the original 3 movies for several reasons:

1) He borrowed concepts that worked for others
2) The story was clear and classic: good vs. evil
3) The effects were new (not tired)
4) The film score was bold and complimentary to the action

All of these are (or at least at the time were) tried and true elements to storytelling that engaged viewers. The controlling narrative was tethered to redemption, justice, and heroic action. It was the rite of storytelling that goes all the way back to the Homeric tradition.

The new Lucas productions "suck" because he's abandoned those storytelling elements for what I consider "post modern." The characters are no longer good or evil they're somewhere in between. Lucas tries to explain too much and seems to fear that even "The Force" is beyond the ability for viewers to suspend disbelief and just believe in it for the 94 minutes they're in the theatre. (Midichlorians? That's harder to believe, George!) Darth Vader was more fun because he was just evil. We liked him turning back to the good side only because the hero wanted it. We, like Luke, didn't care how he fell, we just wanted to see how it worked out. George's initial decision to start in the middle was the right decision then and the right decision now.

How do you save episode 3?

1) Make Anakin evil and don't try to explain why--make us hate him because he's evil not because he's an abused child acting out. The audience should be afraid of the dark side not feel sorry for it. (We're supposed to enjoy seeing him get an asswhoopin' not think "awe, if he'd only had a better home life with a father figure...")

2) Ditch the Disneyesque fluffy crap. No Jar-Jar or other cutesy crap. You can be funny without making the characters saccharin-laced Care Bears from outer space. George, your kids don't have to laugh and giggle through "Daddy's" movie. They'll get their asses kicked at school.

3) If you're gonna steal material, steal GOOD material. Don't steal from half-baked postmodern mythological mumbo jumbo you pulled from Joseph Campbell's trash can. Use classic archetypes & don't try to re-invent them--your stories aren't strong enough to support explaining the characters' complexity.
The audience doesn't care--we just want to see the characters play out the story not the other way around. We know who they are and what they do already, so the Hemingway treatment to every little thought just plain bores us. We want more light saber fights and less pouting moddy James Dean wannabe rebel without a clue b.s.! The most awesome moment was seeing Yoda get it on with Dooky or Dooku or whatever. We know who's good and who's evil--don't overtell the story. The clash was playing out what we ALREADY know.

The bottomline is that we don't like Anakin--he was a snot-nosed smart-assed child and we're glad to see it when he's partially dismemberedand burned so badly that he's forced to live the rest of his life in a big black helmet that hides that smarmy punk-assed smirk we've all reviled for the first 2 episodes.

Oh, crap. I started to rant didn't I? Well, so much for intellectualism.

That's where "writing" comes into play.

[khasim]

Look at episode 1.

They can't be killed by poison gas.
They can't even be hit by robots shooting at them.
They won't be stopped by huge steel doors.
They can even control minds.

With that much going for each individual Jedi, how is it possible to destroy almost every last one of them?

That could be a great story. That could be a trilogy by itself.

Instead, that will be a tiny part of a single movie that will be focused on stupid tricks like lava surfing.

This article is silly

[bonch]

Of course you can't "save" Episode III--it's already been filmed. It's in post-production now.

Superman

[bonch]

Noone had really used special effects to that degree before 1977(to my knowledge)

Interestingly enough, the effects guys working on Superman were really hyped about their film because of their use of miniatures to create the still realistic-looking Krypton, the work to make Christopher Reeves look like he was really flying most of the time, and so on. It was state-of-the-art pushing of the envelope.

Halfway through production, Star Wars came out and made it all commonplace. Plus, Star Wars used more of it than Superman did. Nonetheless Superman is still impressive (and if you watch it today, it's amazing how much it feels like it came out today, complete with 3D zooming credits--Spider-man's plotline is almost a point for point ripoff).

Re:Lord of the Rings

[Mysticalfruit]

Also, aside from the really good audio rendition of LOTR, it was the first film version of LOTR was wasn't like watching children being thrown into a chipper shredder.

Yes, here's how:

[nobodyman]

Simple: Destroy the inner circle.

It's clear that George Lucas is intent on directing, so we can't change that. However, I think the real problem is that the core group of people that he works with are a bunch of ass-kissing yes-men who indulge his every whim.

For example: Watch some of the behind the scenes clips on the episode 1&2 DVD's. You will not find one single instance of where Rick McCallum (the producer and close friend of lucas) disagrees with George Lucas. I'm no movie expert, but after watching Project Greenlight I realize how important the role of a producer is. The producer strives to balance the artistic wishes of the director with the reality of a production schedule, the target audience, box-office desires, etc. If it works right, you end up with a better movie. For Episode 5, there were 4 producers (not counting lucas) that Lucas had to fight with. For episode 1, there was nobody around to say "George, scenes that involve farting aliens will not appeal to the mainstream audience... or anyone over the age of four."

Another example: writing. For Empire Strikes Back, Lucas shared writing credits with Lawrence Kasdan. Lawrence Kasdan. For episodes 1,2,3 lucas shares writing credits with... stars wars book authors (ick). If Kasdan were still involved, surely he would say "George, the dialog between padme and anakin makes the dialog in Rocky 4 seem profound."

At the core, I think Lucas is the same guy he was for the first 3 movies, but this time around he has nobody to ground him in reality or to call him on the stuff that doesnt work.

just my two cents.

Saving Episode III

[awkScooby]

Just a couple of suggestions:

• Put in some real Samuel L. Jackson lines - "use the force, bitch", "can someone hand me my lightsaber -- it's the one that says Bad Ass M***********," "I shall strike down upon thee..." etc
• Show some skin. Anikan should use force ass-grab, etc. Get creative with it (Darth-diggler anyone?)
• Have Jar Jar in the back seat of a landspeeder and have Anikan accidentally shoot him in the face. Yeah, it's a blatant rip of but it still would be funny
• Pamela Anderson - I don't care if she's part of the plot, or just there as scenery
• Ninjas always make movies better...
• Work in Tony Danza and an orangutan

Please don't "save" it

[Andy Smith]

I've read through maybe half of this thread and frankly I can't stand to read any more of the horrible negativity.

Please don't anyone try to "save" the film.

I liked Episode I, and I mean really liked it, especially Jar Jar.

I didn't like Episode II but then I watched it a few times and "got it" and now I really like it too.

I expect to like Episode III as well. I don't think it will need saving.

The person behind five good Star Wars films is the same person who is making the sixth one. I want that person to make the film that he wants to make. I don't want a bunch of film critics and over-sensitive "fans" trying to take control of his vision and turn it into theirs.

Ten ways Jar Jar could die!

[Vinnie_333]

Ten ways Jar Jar could die that would leave me satisfied.

10. Doing the proverbial "stepping on a rake" routine with Anakin's Lightsaber and cutting himself in two - right up the middle.

9. Getting his tongue caught in an X-Wing during take off and getting his head ripped off.

8. Being thrown into the vacuum of space and exploding

7. Two words: Venereal Disease

6. Squished in the trash compactor from Ep IV

5. Sarlacc!

4. Obi Won just getting tired of him and, WHAM, decapitation with the lightsaber

3. Joe Pesci, for no explained reason, walks in stage and shoots him in the head.

2. Uma Thruman, for no explained reason, walks in stage and shoots him in the head.

1. Once again, for no explained reason, Jar Jar catches a foreign born bacteria that causes bleeding from the eyes, vomiting, and nightmarish diarrhea - until death!

Story from somebody older

[spitzak]

Okay I am now officially old. I was in high school when Star Wars came out.

There was no advance publicity. We lived in the suburbs of Boston, and it was one of the first cities Star Wars was released in.

My family had gotten into watching the reruns of Star Trek on the UHF stations, and I believe by this time had seen most of the episodes and were just turning it on each day to see if either an episode we had not seen, or a "good" episode was on.

The first thing I heard about Star Wars was my Dad saying "there seems to be some rip off of Star Trek in the theatres". He had seen an ad for the movie on TV. Somewhat later I saw the same ad. My first impression was it had to be a British production, done by the Andersons of Thunderbirds and Space 1999 fame, as it certainly looked that style. Despite the fact that American Grafitti was a HUGE hit just a few years earlier and we had all gone to see it, there was no indication of a connection with the director. As I remember it, American Grafitti had just as much impact on popular culture as Jaws.

There was then an absolutley positive review in the Boston Globe for the film. Quotes I remember is that "the robots have more personality than the leads in many films" and the spectacular special effects. That convinced me that I really wanted to see the film. But I did not do much else about that.

It seems that maybe a week later that the public perception and the news reports started indicating that this was an enormous hit of unprecedented proportions. Absolutely there was talk *everywhere* about Star Wars. Though initially only a few people had seen it. The ones I knew said it was "good", though there seemed to be an envious feeling between the "seen it" and "had not seen it" people.

Finally in mid-week my Dad got everybody in the car and we drove to Boston to see it in the big 70mm theatre. Well it turned out that even then, perhaps 2.5 weeks after opening, it was impossible to get in. We instead drove around darkened Boston and looked at the LNG tanker that was tied up there (these were also a big deal, what happened to them?)

I later saw it in midday, perhaps 4 weeks after opening, by then you could buy a ticket for midday and get in. It was fun, and funny, and I was constantly aware that the whole thing seemed to be a spoof or a homage to other adventure films, especially the over-the-top violent bar where nobody thinks much of anybody being killed. Some stuff that seems obvious I missed, for instance I did not identify the big sphere as the "death star" from the title crawl. I also thought the movie was ending when they escaped the death star and was suprised by the battle at the end. Still thinking it was an Anderson production I predicted that they would blow a great deal of stuff up, I did not identify the homage to the WWII fighter movies that the battle actually was. Besides humor and adventure, Star Wars also seemed to deliver a believable universe, and that sand planet seemed to really exist, be planet-sized, and be part of a universe of thousands of such planets, and Luke really did seem to be a tiny figure and the Empire an unstoppable power. No sequel since has been able to be so believable.

Like most good geeks I saw it several times after that, maybe 5. I started to be aware of the audience reactions, such as hissing the villian, something I had never heard in a movie theatre before (or since!)

Star Wars was far bigger than any of the sequels. It was in the news every day, and the fact that it was changing the movie industry forever was obvious and talked about from the first moment!

You mean Star Wars is suppose to be a movie?

[LizzyDragon]

And all this time I thought it was a glorified Industrial Light and Magic ad.

H ow to save Epi 3

[TwinBeam]

Late getting in here, but the way to save it is to generate a net alternative Epi3 and have it out BEFORE Lucas' version. Rip the special effects out of the other movies and computer games and don't worry that the parts don't all look the same - focus on plot, characters, dialog, etc. Make it "open source" - anyone can get it and tweak it. There'll be a hundred stupid paradies and a dozen decent alternative plot variations by the time the "real" Epi3 comes out. Then the Epi3 footage will be pirated and edited to put a higher gloss on the best of the FanFiction movies.

I have a terrible terrible suspicion...

[SofaMan]

that after this film is released, no longer will we say that a creatively-bankrupt television or film series desperately atempting to salvage it's prestige with showy one-upmanship has "jumped the shark".

We will say that it has "surfed the lava".

Just Like Star Trek . . .

[puchatek2]

Episode III will fail because it's too much, too soon, and the power-that-be behind the project are driven by anything but good cinematic taste, discipline, and a respect for the legacy of the original story/characters.

Star Trek went through the same painful experience. When the Next Generation series came out, it was a smash, in part because sufficient time had passed since the original series, and many (although not all) of the stories were fresh, and to a certain degree paid homage to the original series characters and ideals. But then the creators of Trek got greedy, and pushed out Deep Space 9, Voyager, and Enterprise. Each evolution was lamer than the one that preceeded it. The movies suffered a similar fate. And now, Trek is a wreck. It's sad, but it's true. And that's not easy for a die-hard Trekkie to admit.

I see Star Wars going down the same path. When Episode I came out, it was a big deal, in part because it had been so long since the public had been exposed to Star Wars. Episode II, was less so. And on top of that you have the fact that the overall cinematic quality of these prequels, special effects aside, got flimsier and flimsier with each incarnation. Just like Trek.

So, whatever is driving Lucas and company to do things the way they do, I don't know. But I doubt anyone will be able to change that. I'm sure lots of Trek fans voiced their opinions, but their please fell on deaf ears. The same is true, or will be true of Star Wars. And like Trek, it's a sad, ending to what was a beautiful, well crafted work of science fiction.