Thin Client Solutions For Libraries?

Not a luser! by Hanzie · 2004-08-11 18:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

..I'm pretty much a luser...

Mmmmm. That word 'luser'. I don't think it means what you think it means....

You're a public librarian. Thank god for you and your kind.

hanzie.

--
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Re:Not a luser! by cliffy2000 · 2004-08-11 18:48 · Score: 4, Informative

To quote Wikipedia: "In hackish, the word luser takes on a broader meaning, referring to any normal user (i.e. not a guru), especially one who is also a loser (luser and loser are pronouced the same)"
So she's okay.
Re:Not a luser! by willabr · 2004-08-11 19:44 · Score: 1, Informative

Here is one I've used Check it out.
http://meadvillelibrary.org/os/pala-ltsp/han dout.h tml
http://meadvillelibrary.org/os/pala-ltsp/pres entat ion/
Re:Not a luser! by scooterphish · 2004-08-11 20:29 · Score: 0, Redundant

Ditto.
Re:Not a luser! by WIAKywbfatw · 2004-08-12 00:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

She? Who said that phatlipmojo was a she? Not all librarians are women, you know.

Looks like we could do with losing the stereotypes about librarians as well as the stereotypes about CS students.

--

"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Re:Not a luser! by timts · 2004-08-12 01:53 · Score: 0

probably he is right about himself, as there are tons of libraries and schools using dell windows xp machines as clients without frequent blue screen of death. instead of seeking different client, he should have learned how to maintain machines first.
Re:Not a luser! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:19 · Score: 0

Aren't all librarians really hot chicks?
Re:Not a luser! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:38 · Score: 0

In my dreams they are!
Re:Not a luser! by pomakis · 2004-08-12 02:47 · Score: 4, Insightful
he? Who said that phatlipmojo was a she? Not all librarians are women, you know.

Wouldn't the use of "he" be just as presumptuous? The English language has flaws, and this is one of them. Since English has no third-person-singular gender-unspecific pronouns, speakers and writers of the english language have only six choices when referring to somebody whose gender isn't known:
- Use "he/she". This can get very awkward (especially when spoken). E.g.: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then he/she put it over his/her head so that he/she wouldn't get his/her hair wet."
- Use "they". This is technically wrong because it's a plural pronoun, so in can lead to ambiguity and confusion. However, it's becoming increasingly common. E.g.: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then they put it over their head so that they wouldn't get their hair wet."
- Use new gender-unspecific pronouns and hope that they'll be understood and catch on. E.g.: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then ey put it over eir head so that ey wouldn't get eir hair wet.". See http://www.aetherlumina.com/gnp/ for more information on such pronouns.
- Always assume male. This was common and correct practice in bygone days, but I don't think it's reasonable nowadays.
- Guess at a gender. This is a variation of the previous point, and is not only more fair, but more likely to be correct. In this case, the person in question is a librarian, and there are more female librarians than male librarians, so why not initially guess "she" rather than "he"? It's more likely to be correct.
- Avoid the use of pronouns altogether. I think that this option is entirely unreasonable. E.g.: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then that person put it over that person's head so that that person wouldn't get that person's hair wet."
Re:Not a luser! by WIAKywbfatw · 2004-08-12 03:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

Assuming the male form is arguably more scientific than guessing, which is what you seem to suggest should be done. Yes, it's what's historically been done and that's exactly why if you're not sure of someone's gender or want to make a general case using "he" is better than using "she". (Of course, using "he or she" or "s/he" is an alternative, but as you've pointed out it can become unwieldy.)

(By the way, why is guessing that the librarian in question is a woman right? You could argue that the librarian in question is also a technically-capable Slashdot reader, and that stacks the odds in favour of that person being a man rather than a woman.)

When you use "she" you're giving readers little doubt that you're referring specifically to a woman. But when you use "he" readers are more likely to appreciate that you mean "he or she".

To give an example, if I were to say "mankind has reached for the stars", you know that I'm referring to men and women. But if I was to say "womankind has reached for the stars" then that's a totally different meaning.

Yes, this is a grey area of language. Yes, it's all about personal interpretation and preferences. But momentum is on the side of "he", in this case and in general.

--

"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Re:Not a luser! by aardvarkjoe · 2004-08-12 03:49 · Score: 1

Always assume male. This was common and correct practice in bygone days, but I don't think it's reasonable nowadays.
You've got this one wrong. The point of using "he" is not that you are assuming that the person is male. Rather, "he" is the correct pronoun to use in a situation where the pronoun could refer to a person of either sex. In formal writing, it's still generally the best choice.

--

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Re:Not a luser! by Fnkmaster · 2004-08-12 03:55 · Score: 2

The whole concept of the use of "they" as an incorrect gender neutral singular pronoun is somewhat silly. It is frequently used that way in common English speech (at least in the US, in most of the places I've lived), and it conceptually (i.e. linguistically) makes sense. Both "he" and "she" have strong gender connotations in English, and neither feels appropriate for the case of unknown gender. The confusion you reference with they is almost never a practical issue - as in the sentence you referenced, it's conceptually clear that a single person is being referred to, despite the use of the word "they". The idea of constructing and imposing a new pronoun is fairly laughable - you can construct and impose lots of new words and you might have some success, but the baseline words, numbers, basic body parts (excluding euphemisms and sexual references), pronouns, articles and other fundamental words to the language are very slow to change and very resistant to imposed change.

It would seem prudent at this point, given the clear need for such a word, and the commonplace use of the word they for this purpose, to just accept it as grammatical usage. The word notes on they at dictionary.com are quite interesting on this subject actually, and on the origins of they/them and the modification from the Old English form to the Norse-derived form.
Re:Not a luser! by Glamdrlng · 2004-08-12 04:16 · Score: 1

In my experience, anyone who categorizes himself as a luser by definition is not one.

--

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Re:Not a luser! by gbickford · 2004-08-12 04:25 · Score: 0, Redundant

How about: "Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then put it over their head so that their hair wouldn't get wet."
Re:Not a luser! by studerby · 2004-08-12 04:50 · Score: 1

Rather, "he" is the correct pronoun to use in a situation where the pronoun could refer to a person of either sex.
In writings that will see the public, I generally substitute "they" instead of "he" (except in really formal business/technical stuff, where I find a way to use "one"/"one who" or "someone" or avoid pronouns), even when it's clear that there's only one person in "them". Alternately, in things like examples, I "instantiate" the unknown individual by supplying a gender-spcific name such as "John/Jane Doe", and using the correct pronoun for the hypothetical scenario.
"He" has been correct merely by the weight of tradition, and traditions are made to be broken. I prefer to make the "error" of mis-stating the count over the "error" of mis-stating the gender of the unknown person. Of course, in casual private communications, I write "quick and lazy" and don't worry too much about it. While I think gender-neutral language is the "right thing to do", it usually takes time for any language to evolve (except in places/times where the "language police" have real sanctions to impose). I find that people who nit-pick on the folks who don't follow the "language rules" (new or old) are usually also annoying little weasels.

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Re:Not a luser! by aardvarkjoe · 2004-08-12 05:01 · Score: 1

"He" has been correct merely by the weight of tradition, and traditions are made to be broken.
See, the thing is -- you have a misunderstanding of what grammar is. It's all tradition. Every single grammatical rule comes from one source -- that people do it that way. Yes, language can change -- but it hasn't yet, and using "he" is still proper in formal writing.
And you're still incorrect in stating that using the pronoun "he" is mis-stating someone's gender. I already addressed that in my last post; please read it again until you understand it.

--

How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
Re:Not a luser! by jd0g85 · 2004-08-12 05:06 · Score: 1

Thank you for recognizing that English does have a pronoun for the job: 'it'
This does have connotation problems of its own, of course, since we tend to use 'it' with objects instead of people, although one correct use is: "an animate being whose sex is unspecified, unknown, or irrelevant" (google definitions).
Once could also look to Spanish, a closely tied language, and realized that when the person's sex is unknown "el" is used. For multiple people, it's 'ellos'. Both are the masculine form, but this form is also used to be gender unspecific.

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Re:Not a luser! by takshaka · 2004-08-12 05:14 · Score: 2, Funny

Indeed, they is hardly any more confusing than the second-person pronoun you, which is both singular and plural. The singular they is already an accepted usage in informal settings, and I have little doubt that it will eventually become legitimate for even scholarly usage in America.

Of course, this means that here in the South we will begin using they as strictly singular with the prefered third-person plural being th'all.
Re:Not a luser! by studerby · 2004-08-12 05:17 · Score: 2, Informative

BTW, the classic example of a major modern-day language reformation, complete with real language police, was the reformation by decree of Turkish starting about 1930. They switched to the Latin alphabet from Arabic letters, and threw out all non-Turkish borrowed words, replacing them with either historical Turkish words or newly coined terms. There's a book about it for the curious.

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Re:Not a luser! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 05:17 · Score: 0

How is using a form of "they" only twice better than using it three times?
Re:Not a luser! by Merovign · 2004-08-12 05:40 · Score: 2, Funny

I'd like to take a moment to bring up my proposal from back in the day for a new, all-purpose pronoun to use when ambiguity rears its ugly head. Or is that his ugly head? Her?

Anyway, recognizing that everyone is very sensitive about these things, I decided to combine three common pronouns, she, he, and it.

My proposal for a new, generic pronoun:

s/h/it.

Face it, it makes as much sense as the other choices.
Re:Not a luser! by drmerope · 2004-08-12 05:42 · Score: 1

No. It is not about assuming the male. He doubles as the gender neutral (epicene) pronoun--as is the case in many languages.

Unfortunately what has happened is that people started to learn to use he "just because" and so when it lost ground politically few stepped forward to defend it's usage.

It's a sad truth that "he", while grammatically correct and historically non-sexist, is too dated and can no longer be used neutrally thanks to the long campaign of politicizing the language.

"They" and "Their" have a nice history in the singular going back to the 14th century with many occurances in Jane Austin's novels for example.
Re:Not a luser! by studerby · 2004-08-12 05:53 · Score: 1

you have a misunderstanding of what grammar is
Actually, having completed a university program in linguistics with pretty good marks, I think I have an adequate grasp of what "grammar" is, as well as how languages change. And change occurs in the standard (the "grammar" books) following actual long-term usage among the high-prestige actual language users. (In other words, French "grammar" doesn't change until the Parisians adopt a change, no matter what the folks in Quebec are doing or how long they've been doing it.) The "grammars" always lag the reality, and the only way to change the reality is to change the usage.
I'm not asserting that "he" is currently "wrong" according to grammatical "standards", but rather that I choose to change my usage in order to (I hope) change the standards. Traditions are made to be broken and as long as my communications are understood, I'm not gonna worry my pretty little head about what the language police think (especially since most such language police don't know anything more than rote rules anyway, e.g. they still belive in the "8 parts of speech".)

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Re:Not a luser! by Fnkmaster · 2004-08-12 06:05 · Score: 1

Grammar is _not_ all tradition in the sense that you imply. It's partially tradition in the sense of common usage, partially tradition in the sense of standardized rules agreed upon for consistency, and partially cognitive wiring. In this particular case, the formal rule of using "he" as a gender neutral pronoun is dissonant with the common usage of the language, and the cognitive effect based on common usage. In English, "he" and "she" have strong human-gender associations since they are rarely used with objects except to specifically ascribe gender to said objects. Because of this fact, most speakers find it confusing to use the word "he" in the context of describing a human of unknown gender - thus the frequent substitution of the gender-nonspecific pronoun "they". This substitution tends to work well because it's usually contextually clear whether the singular or plural is meant by the speaker, whereas there is generally no contextual clue to indicate that "he" refers to a person of unknown gender.

As others have mentioned, this "misuse" of the word 'they' goes back at least 600 years in common English usage, so there's plenty of tradition behind it as well. While we all know because we learned in elementary school that you can't use "they" because "they" is always plural, and it must agree with the subject, that rule simply doesn't match with the way the word is commonly used. Your assertion that the language hasn't changed yet is an odd one - the dictionary judges these language issues by seeking consensus from a bunch of grammarians. Is that a more valid way to judge the way a language is changing than to look at how people use the language in common speech, and even in common writing? Are "ain't" or "ya'll" grammatically incorrect, or a grammatically legitimate part of a non-standard dialect of English? Maybe we need an academy to dictate our language to us, like the French have.
Re:Not a luser! by dolphinling · 2004-08-12 06:09 · Score: 1

With public libraries, that's more a problem than you'd think. They have to be perfectly locked down, or you'll have some kid who thinks himself (gah, that seems wrong after reading the entire pronoun debate up above) cool coming in and doing whatever he can to mess it up. And I have never seen a perfectly locked down Windows machine. So in his case a lot of it depends on how good the rest of the library staff is (whether they can recognize the troublemakers and kick them out) and how big the library in general is (more people = more troublemakers).

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Re:Not a luser! by aardvarkjoe · 2004-08-12 06:28 · Score: 1

I'm not asserting that "he" is currently "wrong" according to grammatical "standards", but rather that I choose to change my usage in order to (I hope) change the standards.
OK, I can agree with that. I was taking issue with your statement that using "he" means that you assume the person being referred to is male -- which is not the case.

--

How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
Re:Not a luser! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 08:33 · Score: 0

You do realize that with a screen name of "simoniker", the odds are that HE is in fact a male... I'm not too sure about you, but I've never met a girl named Simon.
Re:Not a luser! by ian+istryingtowork · 2004-08-12 08:36 · Score: 1

it doesnt take that long for you 'lusers' to carry on off topic.

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/ian
Re:Not a luser! by mewphobia · 2004-08-12 13:23 · Score: 1

I love people like you. Poor cliffy2000 was getting shit on, and he/she had no response (it's especially hard to think when being attacked, especially when it's in a seemingly correct way), and you come up with the goods.

By that I mean a well thought out argument that makes old mate cliffy in the right. Thank you pomakis.
Re:Not a luser! by dewatf · 2004-08-12 15:09 · Score: 1

>Once could also look to Spanish, a closely tied language, and realized that when the person's sex is unknown "el" is used.

Why would I care what Spanish uses?
English is a germanic language that has lost most of its cases, conjugations and gender. Spanish is more case and gender based and is descended from spoken Latin.

Just use a singular "they" for when you want to imply a person rather than a thing but not a gender. It has only ever been wrong in the strict rules for formal written English that were set down during the 19th Century when education and formal grammar were all the rage. "You" serves as singular and plural 2nd person and "they" is used that way in ordinary speech. No one, except a grammar pedant who is trained to spot it, will even notice a singular "they".

dewatf.
Re:Not a luser! by timts · 2004-08-18 06:59 · Score: 0

he only needs ONE linux box to filter those bad websites for other machines. actually, active monitoring is more effective than filtering.
Re:Not a luser! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-20 06:54 · Score: 0

While "he" may be traditional, reading it or hearing it makes me think of a man first and then remember to generalize to all humans. I don't find it at all difficult to say or write "he or she", or "him or her", whichever works. Five more letters and a space, it's a small price to pay to convey that what I say applies to all people.
BTW, most posts on Slashdot give no clue as to the gender of the poster. In most cases, it's immaterial to the subject under discussion except for trolls who all appear to be male based on the self referencing physical references provided.

Someone wrote a distro.... by thewldisntenuff · 2004-08-11 18:45 · Score: 1

That was actually designed for a public library system...I remember reading an article about it somewhere (/. or other), but it contained almost everything needed (network tools, OO, browser, etc)...

Anyone know what I'm talkin about? I've googled to no avail........

--
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Re:Someone wrote a distro.... by matth · 2004-08-11 23:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

While not specifically for libraries check out
http://www.k12ltsp.org

We currently use it at work on the Tech Floor, and it runs great... I can't remember the last time I replaced a hard drive in a machine.. oh wait I haven't... cause they all run off the server =) BLAH! Nightmare when each machine ran seperately.. replace hard drives, format, etc.

LTSP for Public Libraries by js7a · 2004-08-11 18:46 · Score: 4, Informative

LTSP for Libraries HOWTO

success story

Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:14 · Score: 0

It seemes a little bit dated though. Nowadays you can use KDE in kiosk mode.
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by teh0mega · 2004-08-11 20:46 · Score: 2, Informative

From a personal standpoint, I used LTSP for a classroom at my school, and it worked out great on even 233MHz w/ 128MB RAM. As long as you spend some money for a server, it should work great.
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

I would highly recommend K12LTSP as a good start. It is easy to set up and configure. The latest release which came out today is based on Fedora Core 2 and LTSP 4.0.1. Although it has not on the K12LTSP page at the moment you can read the announcement here.

https://listman.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2004- Au gust/msg00321.html

All the best with your project
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by essreenim · 2004-08-11 22:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

it would really comfort me not to pump several hundred dollars per machine into a monopolist's coffers for an OS we're just going to debilitate anyway.
Yep, I wouldn't use any non-free OS for it, especially since your requirements are quite simple. Any decent *nix distro would be fine.
would you still prefer them to full-fledged PCs?
In a library. Yes. But try not to destroy too much of the flavour of the OS. If customers use the system they may become exposed to Unix/Linux in a favourable way. In other words, lock it down in terms of security but I would try not to lock down the functionality
as Slashdotters go, I'm pretty much a luser
If you were a 'luser', your submission post would have been rejected ; )
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by Aber_Bryn · 2004-08-12 00:03 · Score: 5, Informative

I've been working at the National Library of Wales developing an LTSP based system for our new Readers Room. We had decided to replace the old full WinNT desktops with LTSP stations served off a 1u Intel Xeon Server running Redhat 9 (for the trial system). I'm currently in the process of setting up the servers for the deployment version (Redhat Advanced Server on the same hardware).
I personally found the LTSP for Libraries HowTo very useful, after reading it and a day's worth of work in it - our system happily serves Firefox to the terminals.
You should bear in mind though that serving applications like Office to each terminal will mean quite a lot of your bandwidth being taken up. If its running on the same physical network as the rest of your machines (which it *really* shoudn't be imho) then your staff are going to start complaining.
As for security concerns... provided the terminals arent served with an XTerm and you restrict the user logged in only to their home directory, firewall off the server and isolate it from the rest of your network (consider sticking it on a seperate V-LAN to the rest of your network) and keep the machine up to date. Then it will most likely be as safe as any other machine on your network.

Bryn
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by paranerd · 2004-08-12 00:13 · Score: 1

If you were a 'luser', your submission post would have been rejected ; )

That makes me a luser 5 times over!
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:16 · Score: 0

Great resource, but I would also recomend checking out K12LTSP, the Linux in Libraries mailing list, and Open Source Systems for Libraries
Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by belarm314 · 2004-08-12 04:33 · Score: 1

Well, I could give yet another success story about K12LTSP, but I think you get the point that it's really cool.

One thing to keep in mind: if the machines will primarily be used for web-browsing, you should look into epiphany as a web browser. We've found that it's trimmed down enough to allow some extra machines to run off our LTSP server as compared to our results with other browsers (although we did not try firefox, so I wouldn't rule that one out either). It hasn't really given us any headaches, and the whole library staff and the students seem very happy with it.

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Re:LTSP for Public Libraries by np_geek · 2004-08-12 08:38 · Score: 1

I use LTSP for Internet Kiosks at UNC - Chapel Hill. We have a mix of Dell machines and an HP5500 think client, soon to migrate all of them to the pure thin clients. It's been an excellent set-up. I just updated everything to LTSP4.1 and the latest Firefox. All the machines PXE boot from the server in seconds.Students hammer them pretty hard and they've stood up well. LTSP is a great solution and the support mailing list is active, timely and useful.

Perhaps use Internet Cafe Software by Ba3r · 2004-08-11 18:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

There are quite a few internet cafe packages out there, and there might even be one on sourceforge; combined with linux, I could not think of a better solution for a library, especially when the payment system is used administrate (and ensure that all patrons of your library have equal access).

Sounds like a great project, good luck!

Re:Perhaps use Internet Cafe Software by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

there might even be one on sourceforge

OpenKiosk

Quotes from the webpage:
"OpenKiosk is an open-source multi-platform kiosk system designed for use in libraries, ..."
"With this delivery, OpenKiosk 1.0 is finally drawing to its completion..."

corrected link by js7a · 2004-08-11 18:49 · Score: 5, Informative

success story here, sorry

thin client impressions by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 18:49 · Score: 0

Thin clients have a smaller form-factor, which could be useful in a library already stacked high with books. OTOH, you pay more to have all that computing power stuffed into a smaller case.

Re:thin client impressions by acebone · 2004-08-11 19:14 · Score: 1

Eh ? Didn't think that thin clients had 'all that computing power' ?

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Re:thin client impressions by stoborrobots · 2004-08-11 19:15 · Score: 3, Informative

You do realize that a thin client is not a slimline desktop, don't you?

A thin client is one with little or no computing power... Just a screen, keyboard and mouse, give or take...

A slimline desktop is one where you "pay more to have all that computing power stuffed into a smaller case."

OTOH, maybe IHBT.

--
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Re:thin client impressions by JVert · 2004-08-11 19:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

The world has trolled you.
Renember when we used to call thin clients "dumb terminals"?

Then they seemed to be uncool.

Now they call them "smart displays". Still uncool mostly.
Re:thin client impressions by sakusha · 2004-08-11 19:58 · Score: 1

Finally, someone who understands what a thin client is!

Somewhere or other, I recall seeing a really thin client, basically it was an X11 terminal stripped down to almost no features, but it ran VNC. The idea was you'd set up a humongous VNC system with multiple users running on a server, and you'd hook up dozens of client VNC terminals to it. I have no idea how it works, I don't even remember where I saw it. Maybe someone will remember the details, or perhaps the VNC site has something available.
Re:thin client impressions by Bert64 · 2004-08-11 22:28 · Score: 1

The problem with this, is that VNC is insufferably slow compared to native X11..
Why the hell would anyone use VNC over X11 anyway? X11 supports remote displays natively, why would you need a slow dirty hack like VNC?

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Re:thin client impressions by dkh2 · 2004-08-12 00:05 · Score: 1

That's the point. These are probably going to be network search stations, not wordprocessing, spreadsheeting, gaming boxen. Basically, the most advanced thing they need on them is a browser that supports all the normal MIME types. If they remote boot through PXE use NT Terminal Services or any other form of RDP the bulk of the processing they'll do will be to feed the screen.

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From an old Newsforge article- by thewldisntenuff · 2004-08-11 18:55 · Score: 5, Informative

As Auger recently wrote in an article for Library Journal: "Our two Linux luminaries, Michael Ricksecker (network specialist) and Luis Salazar (network engineer), created a kernel and resulting user desktop that closely mimic not only the look and feel of a Windows desktop and browser but lack the unnecessary bells and whistles that come with a standard Windows installation."

Using LFS as a starting point, Luis and Mike were able to build a minimal Linux kernel that included only the functionality required by the "kiosk style" machines. They added the Gnome desktop environment, the Mozilla browser, and OpenOffice.org to complete the picture. They call the new distribution "Lumix."

Anywho, give that a try --

Article From Newsforge-
http://www.newsforge.com/os/04/05/03/1520209.shtml

LumixTech (link from article doesn't work...give this a try or google it)
http://www.lumixtech.com/

Good luck with your new library!

-thewldisntenuff

--
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Re:From an old Newsforge article- by Spy+Hunter · 2004-08-11 19:38 · Score: 4, Informative

KDE now provides a "Kiosk mode" that is designed to make this kind of locked-down desktop easy to achieve on any distribution with KDE. Here's a recent article on the subject, and here's the project homepage, and here's the KDE guide for sysadmins, which has lots of information useful to KDE server admins.

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Re:From an old Newsforge article- by atomic-penguin · 2004-08-11 20:58 · Score: 4, Informative

Here is the slashdot link:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05 /05/144 1249&tid=103&tid=106

There is no publicly available cd image of this. You have to contact the authors to get a copy.

I was going to try this out in one of the computer labs at school. I even contacted one of the author's and got no reply.

Instead I just did it myself. We had some crappy 200 and 300 Mhz machines for this.

1. I loaded a bare slackware system with network support.

2. Put mozilla firefox on the systems.

3. Unzip the browser.jar for mozilla (Java Archive, compatible with zip).

4. Hand edit the browser.xul file to disable unwanted features (save to disk, bookmarks, preferences).

5. Zip the new browser.xul into browser.jar.

It might sound like a lot of work involved, but there are tutorials on kiosking a browser available via google. It took me two hours at the most to get mozilla locked down and kiosked.

The hardest thing I had to do was get mozilla to start up in place of a logon manager. Because I tried it a few ways and ended up with nasty infinite loops that don't play nice with init. Beside the point, because you probably want something other than just browser access in your library. What I ended up with was a nice locked down browser in fullscreen mode and nothing else. Which was the original goal to have browser kiosk. Extremely easy to modify mozilla to fit your needs. One alternative I have seen is a 10 headed server (1 server, and 10 screens, keyboards and mice). A turnkey solution with applications loaded, exactly what you are looking for. The downside is a price ranging in tens of thousands, depending on what optional packages you want added.

--
/^([Ss]ame [Bb]at (time, |channel.)){2}$/
Re:From an old Newsforge article- by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:11 · Score: 0

My girlfriend lives in Howard County Maryland, which is the subject of the newsforge article. I Have been to one of the libraries that made the switch, and was pretty impressed. They have a few windows PCs still for word processing (why they dont just use open office, I dont know) but I honestly dont think Joe Library-goer even notices that the switched computers are not running windows. Their distro, and window manager are very well selected to make a very comfortable environment for windows and linux users alike.
Re:From an old Newsforge article- by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:17 · Score: 0

I seem to recall a /. article about some Brazillian university figuring out the problem and open sourcing a method for multiple external terminals on a single server without the 5-6 digit prices.

Here is the entry I found googling it.
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/04/07/03 /1923255.shtml?tid=106
Re:From an old Newsforge article- by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:14 · Score: 0

I requested and received a CD from the authors of Lumix (very kind of them) .. but was unable to get beyond that point. Couldn't figure how to get the gzipped .tar files from there onto a Linux partition so it would boot.

It might work .. but I just couldn't make it work.

I'm going to check out that KDE Kiosk approach.
Re:From an old Newsforge article- by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:31 · Score: 0

I was able to contact the Author and recieved a copy of the software, it works great!

linux.. by DZign · 2004-08-11 18:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

Some people already referenced to distros you can use.. so I don't have to do that anymore.

But as I have some personal experience with this here's my post :-)

Back in the day when I was studying at university a friend and I both worked a few hours a week in the uni library. They had the same problems you're describing, only on win95 then..
The computers available could be used to surf and telnet to the library system to search books.
Almost every week windows had to be re-installed,
usually because someone messed up some settings, or there was a virus on it, .. (thank god spyware didn't exist back then, I don't want to imagine how bad it would be now :-))

In the end we just installed linux. The login screen clearly said 'log in as 'guest' with password 'guest' and would then boot X with 2 nice large icons: Netscape and a telnet window to the library catalog. Nothing else was possible.

For the next 6 months the year lasted, we didn't have to do any maintenance anymore on these systems..

(bonus for us: we used it as email server too to get personal email out of the uni-system and having a box to telnet from was nice to.. hmm.. experiment a bit)

--
Learn about pinball machines on www.flippers.be

Re:linux.. by gbjbaanb · 2004-08-11 20:49 · Score: 3, Interesting

not this karma-whoring post yet again.

I refer to the 'it ran windows and was crap, so I installed linux and everything was fine forevermore'. Why do they keep getting modded insightful?

--

'Back in 1947, I saw the ENIAC system being deployed, but what a load of rubbish it was. It couldn't do a batch job unless you ran it overnight, needed a whole 16 k of valves to process any of its bloated hide, so one day, while the admins were off standing in a ration queue, I installed linux and KDE, and not only did no-one notice, except to say how much smoother it felt, but it made the country into the economic powerhouse we have today, and solved world hunger too.'

--

Please, somebody stop them!
Re:linux.. by Lumpy · 2004-08-11 22:47 · Score: 4, Informative

There is another step you can do if ou want to control the access and or monitor use.

look on freshmeat for some of the cybercafe management systems. you can allocate time to a user and it will shut them down at the end of the alloted time. if your library is not busy, this is not needed, but some libraries are very busy and instead of having the librarians police the stations, you can have the computers police them for you so those waiting to use them will get their time at the terminal.

It worked great for us at a company demonstration of broadband. we had people waiting to "feel the future" so I set up the linux boxes to only allow 15 minutes per user. it worked great and it eliminated the leaches sitting there for 5 hours hogging the access terminals.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:linux.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:57 · Score: 1, Interesting

Or you could take 20 mins to figure out the security settings you need on an XP box to stop the user from installing thier own programs.

Spend some time with the group policy editor nitwit.
Re:linux.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:58 · Score: 0

I refer to the 'it ran windows and was crap, so I installed linux and everything was fine forevermore'. Why do they keep getting modded insightful?
Because they do indeed show great insight.
Many people either don't recognise this insight and have to be told.
Re:linux.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:04 · Score: 0

You're kidding, right?
This may stop InstallShield, but many of the more common windows "installers" (Sobig, MS-Blast, Sasser, MyDoom, Lovsan) seem to work despite anything those 20-minutes will teach.
Re:linux.. by LetterJ · 2004-08-12 01:28 · Score: 1, Funny

Oh hush. We all know that Windows stopped advancing in 1996 and that it has no way to do anything useful like lock things down, provide useful commandline utilities, etc.

--

The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
Re:linux.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:28 · Score: 0

Somebody mod the parent +1 Funny, because it's +1 True!
Re:linux.. by jonadab · 2004-08-12 05:49 · Score: 1

> Or you could take 20 mins to figure out the security settings you need on
> an XP box to stop the user from installing thier own programs.

Right, so then you'd only have to worry about the apps that come with Windows,
such as MSIE and MSOE. Fortunately those apps are very secure, as we all know,
so the whole solution would be very robust... or something.

--
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.

I Assume You Are Intending To Use an ILS? by Master+of+Transhuman · 2004-08-11 18:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

If so, go here for the Koha Integrated Library System - an open-source ILS used by several libraries in New Zealand and elsewhere.

Also go here for the Open Source For Libraries Web site which has links to numerous open source library systems and tools. Including a story on how Arizona State University West moved entirely to Linux as the underlying OS for their library.

Between those two sources, you should find plenty to check out.

--
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!

Re:I Assume You Are Intending To Use an ILS? by ovoskeuiks · 2004-08-12 01:52 · Score: 1

Koha was developed originally for my local library... in a sleepy little town called Levin

Personally... by Tuxedo+Jack · 2004-08-11 18:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

I would use Knoppix.

That's got everything you need on it - it's a full, live-on-CD version of Linux, and it's completely free. Boot off it, glue the CD-drives shut, and you're good. You'd need small hard drives for it, naturally, and quite a bit of memory (~512MB should do fine), but that'd do _very_ nicely for a workstation - KDE, OpenOffice, Mozilla, and a bunch of other things that make a workstation a workstation.

--

Striking fear in the authors of godawful fanfiction, I am here, appearing in darkness, Tuxedo Jack!

Re:Personally... by blackpaw · 2004-08-11 20:22 · Score: 1

Did you even read the frigging title of the article, let alone the article itself ?

They want low cost, low maintenance library terminals and are wondering if linux terminal servers are the way to go.

They do not want a office workstation.
Re:Personally... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:40 · Score: 1, Interesting

Put it on a server harddisk and use bootp to set the NIC to load it from network upon booting the thin client. Take Knoppix and rip out all the unneeded software that comes with it and configure it to the library's liking. People who want to save stuff they look up should be able to use a floppy at the clientto save. Offer them a copy of Knoppix for home use for a small fee to cover time and material copying it. Configure that to allow somebody to boot that at home and get online to the library if they desire. Windows users can use the library website.
Re:Personally... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:00 · Score: 4, Interesting

It's not so bad a suggestion as it seems..

Knoppix supports being a terminal client by a simple LILO-command. For better effect, just remaster the original Knoppix to adjust this and some locale data, and the rest would be up to the server, which can be eg. Knoppix or Debian HD-install.

It's a really fast way to setup thin-clients for sure. Of course, it's a little dirty too, and if you want NX-support, you'd probably have to do some more work. It would be worth it though and REALLY cost-effective. Imagine all you have to do to setup a new client is burn a new CD-R or quick HD-install of Knoppix (the compressed type which is identical to the CD-ROM)?

Myself, I'd find a similar project to base the work on though.
Re:Personally... by LDoggg_ · 2004-08-12 01:05 · Score: 1

Or you could load freedos onto a small partition on the hard drive, and an etherboot com image in the autoexe.bat.
That way you could still used the floppy & cdrom of the thin client.
Of course you could just run linux and do an X:query, but then you lose the sound support and other cool local device support stuff that the ltsp.org guys are doing.
If the client is really strapped for ram, you could use that HD for a linux swap file as well. Just remeber that its just running a small kernel for X, it doesn't need the ram of a full workstation.

Or better yet, go to Disklessworkstations.com and buy some bootable NICs.

Or even better than that, buy some acutal thin clients from them.

--

"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
Re:Personally... by muzik · 2004-08-12 02:54 · Score: 1

Loading an entire OS off a cd can be rather slow ... both at boot time and to run different applications as you have to seek across the cd (Even with 52x cdroms). Knoppix is a great "Introduction to linux", but for a daily OS, I find it much too slow. I would look into the LTSP, and have at least 2 hosts for redundancy. If you were to have all the terminals on one host... you'd be frucked if that host went down. With a centralized computer its easy to upgrade software (You only have to do it once... rather than once for each computer) ... and in the future when the computers get "Slow" -- just upgrade the central computer and leave your terminals. Just my 2c
Re:Personally... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:57 · Score: 0

If knoppix is interesting then use OpenMosix. That way the terminals are also part of the server. If you later ran or installed other apps the load would be moved as needed over the machines.

2 other points of interest worth reminding or remembering..
- knoppix is kde bent. kiosk may still be an option.
- knoppix is installable to a harddrive. Hence so is clusterknoppix. So clusterknoppix can be installed on server HD and then make remastered CD for clients with configs. Clients run CD and join cluster and function's as machines.

LAWIII
Re:Personally... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 06:57 · Score: 0

Knoppix seems like the ideal solution to me as well, but I would differ with the original post in suggesting not having any hard drives on the machines. I frequently remove the hard drive from my machine which has 192 MB of RAM and use Knoppix. ( I would suggest that you target 256 MB or more. ) The OS works perfectly. It sets up a virtual disk drive in RAM and then performs swamping off of that virtual drive as well as providing the user with space for their temporary files.

The advantage of having no hard drive in a public machine is that it makes recovery from even the worst concivable scenario no more difficult than re-booting the machine. This in turn permit you to give the users full access to the machines. They can use Mozilla, Open Office, FTP clients, and too many other applications and games to list without causing any trouble for you. You can even let them load and run their own software, knowing that no matter what it does, it will be purged on the next re-boot.

Note: If you can get machines with 1 GB or more of RAM then you can have Knoppix copy itself into RAM during the boot. The result is to make booting a little slower, but running both faster and quiter - no CD accesses every time someone accesses a new application.

On another front, you mentioned that you want floppy support on these machines. This is good, but you should also think in terms of providing front side USB ports and maybe also Flash Memory ports to assist your patrons in moving larger files to/from your machines. Knoppix makes mounting and unmounting such devices easy.
Re:Personally... by sexecutioner · 2004-08-12 13:26 · Score: 1

Rather than glue the door shut on your nice CD drive I'd mount the drive 1-2 cms back from the front of the case and glue a drive bay cover in place to hide it. You can then get at the drive, for updates, by taking the entire case off. Padlock the case to keep out the ratbags.

Sun Rays by trisweb · 2004-08-11 18:59 · Score: 4, Informative

I know you said that money is less important, but Sun Rays still might be out of your league. I have no idea what they go for.

Sun Rays are the epitomy of the thin client. I mean, they really are thin. Only like 2 inches thin. They run off a Solaris central server, and have no hard disk or much of a CPU. I use them all the time in my CS lab at UC Berkeley.

I'm commenting more on the general aspect of the thin client than these specifically, because I think something else might suit your needs better. So let me just say that in a lab of 30 sunrays, they always seemed slow. But then you (probably) don't have freshmen writing C programs with memory leaks and infinite loops that clog the pipes. If you had a moderate number running off a decent server, I'm sure they'd be fine for just about anything you do. Solaris is a pretty standard UNIX environment; you can offer Gnome and KDE and such, and all the applications you described, and they'll work fine as long as people don't expect 3D games.

But I'd consider alternatives. It all depends on how many systems you want to offer. If it were 5-10 systems, I'd just get cheap PCs and install RedHat or other linux, or an old version of Windows. Then keep a disk image handy so you can wipe them whenever you want. But if you need a lot of workstations, then a thin client might be more economical. Work it out and see.

--
"!"

Re:Sun Rays by WebCrapper · 2004-08-11 19:32 · Score: 5, Informative

I recently did a study on Sun Rays and think I can share some data...

For 40 Sun Thin Clients with 1 Server: $74,935 (for Library use, you can probably add up to 60 Thin Clients on one server due to usage)

For 40 Dells (with required antivirus and Ghost):$76,307.28 (with small business discount)

Upside of thin clients is - no work locally, its all on the server. Good technical support (they answered our test call within 2 minutes) will help out with any issues you can't take care of.

If you want an 8 page report on the pro's and cons between the average windows workstations and thin clients (as well as 3 PC manufacturers compared to Sun's Thin clients), feel free to email me.
Re:Sun Rays by WebCrapper · 2004-08-11 19:40 · Score: 5, Interesting

I did a report on your average computer vs the Sun Rays:

Dell: P4 2.8GHz, 512 memory, 20G HD (5400 rpm), 24x CD, Win 2k, Ultrasharp 19inch Flat panel that is height adjustable, standard keyboard, wheel mouse, bottom line external speakers, DVI-VGA video adapter, mouse pad, no floppy, no consumer anti-virus software, no Microsoft Office offered.

Cost: $1,797 per unit

Required Software: 40 licenses each of Norton Anti-Virus ($3,219.65) and Ghost (1,207.63), Corp Editions.

Full cost: $76,307.28 for first initial order

Support: A test call to their support line prompted advertisements for spyware removal programs, antivirus programs, network hardware to up sell customers as well as the standard "Your call is important to us." The call lasted 17 minutes before giving up the test call.

Sun Thin Clients:
Configuration Details: The SUN thin clients are, effectively, modern dumb terminals. There is no local processing, everything is done on the server side. A representative would need to insert their smart card, used as a username and password, into the thin client and their session would be brought up immediately, right where they left off before. This enables "hot desking", which means a representative can get up from one terminal, walk across the building and sit down at another terminal and begin working where they left off - zero configuration. The thin client works off of a central server, called a SUN Fire, that can house anywhere from 1 to 80 clients, depending on server type and load. These are normally very fast machines that have their memory maxed out.

The Server runs the only copy of Solaris, so there is only 1 upgrade point and since it
runs Solaris, it is impervious to roughly 99.9% of the viruses that attack computers. A major benefit is that the SUN Fire server requires, roughly, one System Administrator for 2000 thin clients.

The Sun Ray 1G Thin Clients do have audio in and out jacks, giving representatives to listen to music over the network. This would require a CD collection somewhere, a network storage server dedicated to music, etc.

Cost: $359 per unit + SUN Fire server ($12,995 - $29,490) + 19 inch monitors ($1,100 each)

Required Software: None. The SUN Fire server has licenses for 20 to 40 users using Solaris with Gnome, a Windows like operating system as well as other software package like StarOffice (a Unix/Linux version of MicroSoft Office) and GAIM, a Unix/Linux version of AOL Instant Messenger.

Required Hardware: The Sun Thin Clients require a monitor. While Sun offers 19inch LCD displays for $1,100 each, the Thin Clients do support any monitor that supports Display Identification Standard (DDC) ver. 1.2 or 2.1. There is more documentation on monitor needs on Sun's website. Other 19-inch monitors that appear to support the standard are priced at $800 to $1,100. I have also noticed that the Sun Monitor appears to support higher frequency ranges (60-80Hz) vs the low end competition. This can help reduce eyestrain for those that can see monitors flickering at anything below 70Hz, such as myself. The Sun monitors also support 1920x1200 with 24 bit color (2d rendering, no 3d).

Full cost: $74,935 for first initial order

Support: A test call to their support line was greeted with a simplistic menu. After the menu prompt was picked, a "Southern type" SUN technician greeted the caller after a short wait. Total call time to live rep: 2 minutes.

Since the library isn't going to actually use them like we would, you can probably run around 60 per server since it would just be a browser and maybe a terminal window.

Basically, after spending about a week on the issue of workstations for a call center environment, we found that the Sun Ray Thin Clients came out on top and we'll be deploying them ASAP. Hope this helps.
Re:Sun Rays by W.+Justice+Black · 2004-08-11 20:23 · Score: 5, Informative
ObDisclaimer: I work for the Linux Server Group at Sun.

I have also worked rather intimately with a few thin client technologies over the years, including SunRay, X Terminals (NCD, e.g.), and WinTerminals with WinFrame (NT 3.5) or MetaFrame (NT4/2k). I run a few SunRay servers today, and have run a 75-user cluster of Win/MetaFrame machines in the past. All of these solutions have their plusses (in fact, terminal services is the one Windows technology I like)...

There are, however, bits of your specific set of issues that point me at the SunRay for you:
1. Bandwidth to the clients are not an issue, so no need for the bandwidth saving that ICA gives you (ICA is really quite good over dial-up, e.g.), so that leaves:
2. Windows compatibility. Since you don't seem to care about running Windows apps, all solutions are on more-or-less even footing.
If you've got some coin and are willing to spend a little on systems, I'd recommend the SunRay because:
1. Sessions tied to smart cards. Folks can log in, and wander anywhere in the library with their session tied to (e.g.) their library card. For folks doing combination book/internet research, this is awesome. Folks that haven't tried yet are really missing out.
2. Soon, you won't be tied to Solaris/SPARC anymore. Sun has announced a port of the SunRay software to Linux, so you may well be able to reuse your existing server hardware. In fact, the beta is available for download here.
It never ceases to amaze me how many PC techs I know complain about crawling under desks or removing 25 lbs of personal effects to fetch a system so they can swap a dead drive or similar. When I tell them that thin client technology can guarantee them never having to crawl under a desk again (barring wiring or serious catastrophe), they definitely stop worrying about nonexistant 3D performance. Thin-client is an awesome way to go--you might not spend that much less on the machines, but maintenance and client upgrade costs go to zero.

The downside is no Windows (excepting via e.g. VMWare, Wine, etc.). OTOH, even on Windows Terminal Services you have programs that aren't really written to be run by multiple users on the same machine (even Office gave us fits at times with entries in HKLM instead of HKCU). It's gotten better over the years, though...

Short version: Even if you don't go SunRay, save yourself a lot of headache and go with a thin client.
--
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
Re:Sun Rays by edunbar93 · 2004-08-11 20:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

The Sun Thin Clients require a monitor. While Sun offers 19inch LCD displays for $1,100 each, the Thin Clients do support any monitor that supports Display Identification Standard (DDC) ver. 1.2 or 2.1. There is more documentation on monitor needs on Sun's website. Other 19-inch monitors that appear to support the standard are priced at $800 to $1,100.

I've never known a library to use 19" monitors for anything, let alone 19" LCDs that cost 3 times more than the thin client they're attached to. In fact most I've seen use 15" or less (and I recall one library I used to frequent used 13" monochrome VAX dumb terminals, but needs have changed since then).

The fact of the matter is that we're dealing with the unwashed masses here, not uber multitaskers like call center employees or programmers.

--
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
Re:Sun Rays by trisweb · 2004-08-11 20:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

This seems blown up slightly -- A library (IMHO) does not need a 2.8GHz 512MB system. What are people going to do? 3D animation? raytracing? Doom III?

I think a better estimate would be a 1.4 GHz AMD Athlon XP system with 256MB RAM and the bare min for hard disk and other. The monitor you chose also inflated the price a bit. You can get decent 15" monitors these days (either LCD panel, or Trinitron CRT for more savings) for under $300.

And the software costs for the PCs are horribly inflated as well -- first of all, screw Windows. Install a basic Linux environment on them; there go your unnecessary Norton licenses. Use Gnome (or KDE), Firefox, OpenOffice, and a terminal for the Library and you're all set. If you're going to do a price comparison, at least bring the PCs up to the same level as the UNIX sunrays.

Cost per unit: about $600-$800
Total cost: around $30,000
Hmm, significantly less. I don't know if it's just me, but it seems convenient that the sunrays beat out the PCs by only about two grand. Maybe for a call center environment you need the extra horsepower on your PCs (which is ironic, because you chose sunrays instead) but I doubt it. Aside from maintenance and support, the PCs are definately cheaper for the library.

--
"!"
Re:Sun Rays by W.+Justice+Black · 2004-08-11 20:27 · Score: 1

you may well be able to reuse your existing server hardware.

Duh, re-read the original post. You're really building it from the ground up, so you need servers, too. We got those, too :-)

--
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:28 · Score: 0

now thats what the internet should be all about!... mod parent up (+7 nice person!)
Re:Sun Rays by MarkoNo5 · 2004-08-11 21:02 · Score: 1

If I'm not mistaken, the new library at our campus (positive science campus at the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven) also works on Sun Ray machine. I haven't checked it out though.
Re:Sun Rays by 0x0d0a · 2004-08-11 21:26 · Score: 1

I was wondering what Sun's increasingly idle salesmen were doing these days. Slashdot, is it?

For 40 Dells (with required antivirus and Ghost):$76,307.28 (with small business discount)

Now, why is it exactly that you would choose to not just use the *Dells* as thin clients with Linux? At, say, $1k a machine, you can get a decent new machine to use as a thin client -- and who cares whether the box is two or six inches thick?

--
May we never see th
Re:Sun Rays by fyonn · 2004-08-11 21:27 · Score: 1

not uber multitaskers like call center employees

uber multitaskers? call centre employees? yes, some are good, even great, but many of them rank below the great unwashed masses in technical know-how and problem solving abilities... you can tell by the way drag their knuckles...

*ahem*

dave
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:52 · Score: 0

No way. We had those in the university's library and they got replaced by more PC-like thin clients.

When I search 3 times a year for 27 seconds, I'm not interested in learning what those 20 extra buttons are on those strange Sun keyboards! I'm sure they're quite good when you work all day long on them, but that won't be your case.

And the browser was so ugly... It was Netscape 4 or something of that league. And the whole thing was as slow as shit climbing up the wall. Sheesh.

While they had those installed, I was searching from home on the web and printing the results to bring with me, only to avoid the Sun Rays.

Bottom line, you should really stick to something "customers" are used to.
Re:Sun Rays by Jedi+Alec · 2004-08-11 22:03 · Score: 1

ahem. in what way does intelligence or product knowledge interfere with the necessity to have 12 applications open at the same time? i'm looking at a chock-full taskbar right now, 2 rows high...ofc it'd be a little less if i were able to run mozilla instead of IE, but alas, some IT guys are good, some even great, but many of them rank below the....wait, this sounds familiar somehow

--

People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:41 · Score: 0

Duh, re-read the original post.

Duh, this is Slashdot - when does the original post matter?
Re:Sun Rays by Iffy+Bonzoolie · 2004-08-11 22:41 · Score: 1

Heh, is Soda hall still running on a 10Mbps network? I remember using these old HP-UX machines in the underground labs that had all home dirs and apps running over NFS (a seemingly reasonable setup). But, all those damn computers were unusably slow. Turns out they were running the entire undergraduate lab on 10Mbps because they couldn't afford to upgrade the donated HP hardware to 100Mbps ethernet cards - the HP cards were something around $500 each instead of $50 each for the PCI ones.

I was lucky enough to have discovered Linux in high school, so I could do all my projects at home and they would compile on the various unix systems in the labs (we had Solaris x86 and HP-UX and, for the graphics course, an Irix lab) - usually with few or no problems.

Boy, that was back when I checked email in Emacs. Those were the days.

-If

--
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
Re:Sun Rays by Upphew · 2004-08-11 22:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

One word: Support. I'm not sure what kind of support Dell offers for thin Linux clients, but I'm quite sure that Sun has better support and much more experience on thin clients.
Re:Sun Rays by Lumpy · 2004-08-11 22:49 · Score: 1

sounds like the NCD exploras I get for $10.00 each off ebay and other auctions.

Exploras 451 or the 701 work great, I can have 15 of them running off one dual processor P-III 866 without much system load.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:Sun Rays by mleopold · 2004-08-11 23:46 · Score: 5, Informative

I work in the Computer Science Department at the University of Copenhagen (DIKU) and our undergrad and grad student labs are made up of SunRay stations (I guess about 120 of them or so). They are run by 3 fairly slow SunFireV440 and require a number of application servers that can handle the load - in our case that is a pile of cheap Linux-boxes. With an LTSP solution you might be able to get by with fewer application servers as LTSP is able run applications locally.

The setup performs well for most tasks that our studens perform: browsing, compiling, emacs, lyx, etc. However getting audio from the application on a different server through the network into the V440 and finally to the earphone plug on the terminal is a challenge - and ofen more than the SunRay servers can handle.

They require very little attendance from the administrator - except for hardware failures everything can be handled remotely.

I don't know which prices you used for you calculations, but Sun just announced that SunRay software should be on the way for Linux which should bring the price on the servers down substancially.
Re:Sun Rays by gregorio · 2004-08-12 00:53 · Score: 1

Dell: P4 2.8GHz, 512 memory, 20G HD (5400 rpm), 24x CD, Win 2k, Ultrasharp 19inch Flat panel that is height adjustable, standard keyboard, wheel mouse, bottom line external speakers, DVI-VGA video adapter, mouse pad, no floppy, no consumer anti-virus software, no Microsoft Office offered.

Cost: $1,797 per unit
I just simulated the same configuration, with a 160GB HD and WinXP Pro and the *single unit* price was US$ 1,326. I'm pretty sure that 40 units would be cheaper.
Required Software: 40 licenses each of Norton Anti-Virus ($3,219.65) and Ghost (1,207.63), Corp Editions.

Full cost: $76,307.28 for first initial order
Symantec Corporate Anti-Virus: 50 licenses - US$1818

Full cost: US$54,858, wich is 70% of your original price, not including volume discounts.
Re:Sun Rays by JonAnderson · 2004-08-12 00:54 · Score: 1, Flamebait

Aside from maintenance and support, the PCs are definately cheaper for the library. Which proves you (and most other slashdorks) just don't get it. Do you really (and I mean really) think that the cost of a solution is the purchase price of the equipment (hardware + software)?? Did you consider the maintenance of 40+ individual machines vs. 1 server? A sun ray deployment (even on Linux when this becomes available - if you absolutely MUST use Linux somehow, somewhere) is perfect for this.
Re:Sun Rays by Clover_Kicker · 2004-08-12 00:56 · Score: 1

Multitasking doesn't require technical knowledge.

I've seen call center employees running 20 apps at the same time. When they started their shift, it took them 10 minutes to start all the apps and log in to all the systems. Some of them had 200+ accounts and passwords.

And some of those people couldn't format a floppy diskette to save their souls.
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:10 · Score: 0

Where are my mod-points when I need them.
Thank you, for being the first guy to actually ask the question of what services (DoomIII?, MyDoom? :)) they actually want people to run there; and choose systems appropriate to their needs.
Personally, I'd say 1.4GHz system with 2-4 screens each would make the most sense if you have hundreds of these and if cost is a concern.
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:14 · Score: 0

I work at the same university and there are indeed Sun Rays in the library, but they're a real annoyance to me. There is absolutely no software available (not even acrobat reader), so I figured I'd run my apps on a remote linux machine using X11 exporting, only to find out that the server behind the thin client refuses the X11 connection.
Re:Sun Rays by buysse · 2004-08-12 01:28 · Score: 1

The total price for Sun Rays should be going down nicely soon -- for the first time since 1.2, the server software will be available for x86 on both Linux (Redhat AS and others, like Sun's Java Desktop distro) and on Solaris x86 as well as on sparc.
Sun makes some excellent IA32 (v60, v65) and Opteron (v20z, v40z) server hardware that's nicely priced. Also, for a publically-visible deployment like this, you might be able to work something out with Sun to cut the price further.
I'm a sysadmin dealing with Sun Rays. Love 'em. Not employed or paid by Sun, blah, blah...

--
-30-
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:45 · Score: 0

> I have no idea what they go for.

Something around $1000US per Sun Ray, a few hundred more going by list prices but edu institutions get significant discounts from Sun, and I think libraries qualify. That includes the Sun Ray units, server(s) like V220, V440 or V250 if you want internal disks, office hour support contract, sw licences, etc. pretty much everything you need except network switches. For example a bundle of 40 Sun Ray 150's (the ones with integrated LCD display) and a V440 server (4 cpus, 8 GB, more than enough power for 40 Sun Rays) is about $45,000US list. As a nice bonus, you get a good server (or preferably two or more for redundancy) that can also serve mail, web, files, etc.

Max out on memory, you can run about 20 users per cpu but in practice you almost always hit memory limits first (usually about a GB or two per cpu in Sun machines.)

Once the 3.0 comes out you can also run it in Linux, from cost POW this is pretty insignificant, but Gnome in Linux is bit more polished. OTOH I don't know what kind of resource usage controls are available and they really come handy in an environment like this. Use Solaris Resource Manager in Solaris 8, Containers in 9, and Zones in Solaris 10 to limit the max resources a user can hog, and you'll be a lot happier Sun Ray admin. Zones are also very neat for security.
Re:Sun Rays by munboy · 2004-08-12 01:48 · Score: 1

on ibuypower: a athlon xp sys with no os, 17" CRT, floppy, cd-rom, and 3 year warranty: $565

That times 40, is $22,600 and then custiomize a linux distro and pop it into all of those.

for those that care, here are the exact specs: Case ( Standard ATX Mid-Tower Case w/350W Power Supply [no side window] Beige )
Power Supply ( Standard Case Power Supply )
Processor ( AMD® Athlon XP 2200+ QuantiSpeed CPU )
Processor Cooling ( Certified CPU Fan and Heatsink )
Motherboard ( Asus A7N8X-X w/Audio, LAN, USB 2.0 8x AGP Motherboard )
Memory ( 256MB DDR-333 PC2700 Memory Module )
Video Card ( Nvidia Geforce-2 MX-400 64MB Video )
Hard Drive ( 40 GB HARD DRIVE 40 GB 7200 RPM Ultra ATA-100 Hard Drive )
2nd Hard Drive ( None )
Raid Controller ( None )
Raid Configuration ( None )
CD/DVD Drive ( 16x DVD-ROM Drive Beige )
CD-RW/DVD-RW Drive ( None )
Sound Card ( 3D Wave Stereo Sound Onboard )
Speaker System ( 600W PMPO 3 PCS Super Bass Subwoofer Speaker System )
Fax Modem ( Creative Labs V.92 56K Fax/Modem w/Voice )
Network Card ( 10/100 Network Onboard )
Floppy Drive ( Mitsumi 1.44 MB Internal Floppy Drive Beige )
Zip Drive ( None )
Monitor ( CRT Monitor ViewSonic 17" E70FB Perfect Flat .21H DPI Color Monitor [Black] )
Keyboard ( PS/2 104 Key Windows 98 Keyboard Beige )
Mouse ( Microsoft IntelliMouse 1.1A USB Internet Mouse Beige )
Operation System ( None- Pre-formatted Hard Drive Only )
Warranty ( Warranty Service Standard 3-Year Limited Warranty )
Rush Service ( Rush Service Fee (not shipping fee) No Rush, Ship Out in 5~10 Business Days )
Re:Sun Rays by WebCrapper · 2004-08-12 01:49 · Score: 3, Informative

I've gotten too many replies to respond to each one individually.

The above post was cut and pasted parts of a report that I did for a company I'm working on getting funded.

The PC's need to be able to last at least 3 years in a call center environment before being passed down. While I agree that a library doesn't need this much power, if they went with it, they could probably get 5 years+ out of them without a problem. The need for 3+ years is due to cost of replacement. The other thing is, power for the reps. I'm an ex-technical support rep and have grown long tired of IT groups trying to reuse old machines. Too many applications to run, too many browser windows for different tools costs time to help customers. If the info isn't in front of the reps within 2 to 3 clicks, its too slow in my opinion.

Someone brought up an opinion on the SUN LCD's - they where priced as a package, not as a solution. Again, this was a report about the boxes, not monitors. The bulk of the sun price is actually the monitors. We could bring the price down a heck of a lot by choosing new ones. I'm also not pricing low end LCD monitors because in most instances, you get what you pay for. I need a monitor that can remain on for hundreds of hours at a time.

The reason for 19 inchers - reduced eyestrain. I've worked on 15's, 17's, 19's and a 21 inch screen. 19 was perfect. Some people can have lots of deskspace, others can have font the size of lego bricks if they want it.

"Aside from maintenance and support, the PCs are definately cheaper for the library. Which proves you (and most other slashdorks) just don't get it. Do you really (and I mean really) think that the cost of a solution is the purchase price of the equipment (hardware + software)?? Did you consider the maintenance of 40+ individual machines vs. 1 server? A sun ray deployment (even on Linux when this becomes available - if you absolutely MUST use Linux somehow, somewhere) is perfect for this." ---- exactly.

"Full cost: US$54,858, wich is 70% of your original price, not including volume discounts." -- I was going off of the Dell website at the time for that particular price. I also went off of Gateway and Compaq/HP - Dell was just what I chose to post.

"Symantec Corporate Anti-Virus: 50 licenses - US$1818 [symantecstore.com]" - I actually didn't see this on their website. I used their wizard which gave me the exact amount for 40 licenses instead of just giving me 10 extra for a discount - figures. Something to update.

The main thing here is that, in all situations that we could think of, the Sun Rays fit our needs better than PC's. We even considered building our own PC's for this situation. The bottom line is, if we want to be ultra affordable, we can get Windows boxes for around 40k'ish if we try, but then we need to hire IT types to handle the problems, that happen - its just not worth it to us.
Re:Sun Rays by nodrogluap · 2004-08-12 02:14 · Score: 2, Informative

Specifically regarding library setups there are a few key points that make the SunRay stand out. A few of these points have been mentioned, a few have not.

1. They don't make any noise at all (no fan or disk), which is nice for a library.

2. Generally, you don't need to lock them down, because there isn't a black market for hot SunRays (though this might change with a Linux version of the server available)

3. By far the best feature, as mentioned before, is the smartcard. We exclusively use SunRays at work, and I can go over to another person's desk and plug in my card to show them what I'm doing, etc. A user could move about the library and not have to keep their jacket on a chair to call dibs for a computer. This makes more terminals available at any given time.

4. You will save money on electricity with the SunRays. They produce little heat, and if the power goes out, as long as the server has a UPS, all the terminals will come back right where they left off. This means you could turn off the breakers for the computer circuits after hours.

5. We haven't had any audio issues, because we're doing all of the processing on the server, not farming it out to other machines. And the headphone jack is right in the front (along with the mic, the only plugs in the front), so it's easy for users to plug in headphones so as not to cause a disturbance for the other library users.

6. The SunRay itself takes up almost no room, so you don't need to buy fancy desks with a sling for the tower, or resort to sitting a tower on the floor, where users get their feet into them. Just sit the SunRay on the desktop next to the monitor (3"w x 11"d x 12"h on my desktop).

7. Although I have not used this part of the server software, there are many options for anonymous login, registered login, max time, etc. so you can design and enforce an access policy easily.
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:38 · Score: 0

Since we are basically talking terminal server here, here's another option:

Licensing:
Windows Terminal Services Licensing: $75 * 60 = $4500
Windows 2000 Server: $675
AntiVirus: $150 (max)

Server:
Standard Dual Processor 4GB RAM Dell PowerEdge 2650 with mirrored 72GB drives: $3000

Clients:
Pick your Windows CE Thin-Client: $400 * 60 = $24,000

Network Cabling (oooh, everyone forgot this one too): $125/drop * 60 = $7,500

Two Cisco 3550 switches: $6,500

Server / Cabling Rack: $5,000

Monitors:
17" LCD Flat Screens: $300 * 61 (one for the server too): $18,300

Total Cost:
Licensing: $5325
Clients: $24,000
Servers: $18,300
Rack: $5,000
Cabling: $7,500
Installation (You have to include this too): 3 days = $2,400
Switches: $6,500
TOTAL: $69,500

Implementation:
Windows 2000 Server:
Users log in locally with locked down accounts directly to IE in kiosk mode. Or if you think IE is too insecure, pick another browser.

Clients: Configured to auto-login to the server, locked down.

Cabling: all jacks labeled to standard.
Bottom line is there is no one way to do it. You can install a successful solution however with Windows 2000 that ACTUALLY WORKS for around $70,000. And that's using basically name-brand equipment.
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:19 · Score: 0

Wow, that means there are a ton of idle professionals on Slashdot.
Re:Sun Rays by rainman_bc · 2004-08-12 03:52 · Score: 1

Excuse me, but I think Gregorio made a very good point; you inflated the price.

So when you went to your CTO or whatever with your report, he thinks the sun rays are a good idea - you WANTED them in your office, so you provided a comparable x86 quote.

Thing is you bloated your Norton Licenses, and you overpriced the PC costs in order to justify the SunRay purchases. Gregorico cited a comparable Dell PC, not a x86 hack job.

Maybe you did it unconsciously, bcuz you felt the SunRays were a good deal, but you really didn't do your job in providing a valid report to your superiors.

IT people are funny with stuff like that I suppose. Put their own spin on things so they get their way.

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Re:Sun Rays by alienw · 2004-08-12 04:01 · Score: 1

You are forgetting one thing: the cost of your time. The only way you can get such outdated machines is if you build them yourself. If you have ever tried to build more than one machine, you would know that it is a slow, expensive, and error-prone process.

Half your boxes will refuse to work, you will spend hours troubleshooting to find the 10 dead mobos, 5 bad sticks of RAM, a few defective cables, and so on. Then you will find out that you got the wrong revision of the motherboard that tends to crash often when you use it with the particular brand of RAM you bought, and that you have to take apart and rebuild all the computers again (after exchanging 40 motherboards or so for different ones).

In short, it's much easier and cheaper to just buy a bunch of pre-built machines from a large vendor like Dell. And if you don't know, Dell doesn't sell AMD boxes, and a 2.8GHz processor is the slowest they offer on desktops these days.
Re:Sun Rays by poot_rootbeer · 2004-08-12 04:28 · Score: 1

Let's keep in mind that no library is going to have 40 public network terminals -- even the main branches of libraries in major cities I've visited usually only have 10-15 terminals available.

For a smaller library with maybe only 4-8 seats, a group of PCs is going to be a a much small upfront cost than a Sun Ray/Solaris server configuration.
Re:Sun Rays by Phishcast · 2004-08-12 04:35 · Score: 1

A department at the University I work at were given a number of SunRays. I was in the Citrix business at the time, and they had me set up a Citrix server with PhotoShop of all things, and they planned to use their SunRays with a Citrix client pointing at my server to do PhotoShop training. All of this was done with hardware they had "laying around", so they wouldn't pay for the Citrix feature pack that allowed higher color depths than 256 colors.
I don't think people were too impressed with PhotoShop at 256 colors. The Sunrays sit and do nothing to this day as far as I know.
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 05:22 · Score: 0

Actually Sun offers packages for the Sun Rays which they call "Sun Ray building blocks" which include all your hardware and software for a cheaper price (20 Sun Ray 1G thin clients + server + software + 25 smart cards = $12,995.00) They have larger packages if you need more clients.
Re:Sun Rays by grigori · 2004-08-12 05:25 · Score: 1

Maintenance and support are the big wins-no fixing up machines that a user screwed up. It is a LOT less admin hassle to support a passle of users. Also: next version of Sun Ray server runs on Linux, so you can run it off a standard peecee server and drive the Sun Rays from that. There are pluses and minues of this compared to doing on Solaris on SPARC, but without getting into the whole thing: it opens up access to Wine for those who haven't kicked the Office habit
Re:Sun Rays by Carnildo · 2004-08-12 05:38 · Score: 1

The main branch in my city has 50 terminals: 33 catalog-only and 17 fully-functional internet terminals.

--
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
Re:Sun Rays by 3terrabyte · 2004-08-12 06:01 · Score: 1

Do you play a lot of MUDS at your DIKU college?

--
Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?
Re:Sun Rays by WebCrapper · 2004-08-12 06:13 · Score: 1

...plus the cost of monitors...

Besides, minimum rollout was 40 clients - need a bigger server to handle it.
Re:Sun Rays by 0x0d0a · 2004-08-12 06:23 · Score: 1

[shrug] Maybe. There are a lot of companies that will happily provide support for a bunch of LTSP machines. Not exactly rocket science.

--
May we never see th
Re:Sun Rays by WebCrapper · 2004-08-12 06:35 · Score: 2, Informative

I normally don't feel a need to justify my decisions, but I figured I might as well since so many people where interested in this. While he made the point, I didn't inflate the price on purpose and I admitted that.

1. Didn't know about the 50 licenses for Norton. I'll correct that as soon as I can dig out of my email.

2. I didn't bloat the price of Norton to justify it. In my report, I priced PC's that where less than half the price of the Thin clients but still suggested the Thin Clients based upon a few things.
- Less power consumption and noise (probably the smallest bonus - also helps in case of power failure, more reps still active)
- Easy access to move across the network without having to drag the profile and personal stuff (email) across it with you.
- Extra security by allowing the smart cards to be used as employee badges
- Less of a need for IT staff (biggest money saver)
- Access to support. I don't need my staff to spend 20 minutes on staff to explain why they need an RMA number.

3. Dell has lowered the price since I've written this report (approx 3 weeks ago). I reconfigured on Dells site just for grins and the outcome was about the same. I also chose the SX270 due to its small footprint, therefor, I don't really want a full desktop taking up floor space or a CRT monitor taking up desk space.

Oh, and one last thing. I did the report for a company where I'm sharing the decisions on the support floor. I have two other people that share this responsibility and they are not your average CTO or manager types - they can read for themselves and do the same research everyone else did to make sure I was correct. I honestly went into this report thinking about desktops running FreeBSD or RedHat - changed my mind when I thought about the Sun Rays after awhile.
Re:Sun Rays by chkn0 · 2004-08-12 07:02 · Score: 1
I worked in a SunRay office environment. They were very quick, faster than my home PC.

Some things I noticed about the setup:
1. They were on a 100mbps switched network. The switch(es) had gigabit uplink to the sunray server.
2. The sunray server had something like 100gb of swap available. I presume this was to allow dormant sessions to pile up without becoming a problem.
Re:Sun Rays by rainman_bc · 2004-08-12 07:16 · Score: 1

IMO when a machine is network boot, a PeeCee needs not be anything more than the base model. A $299PC should more than suffice. Floor space and all that is irrelevant if the machine's under the desk. The Sun Ray's have a lot of bling to them.

As well, I don't like Dell servers anyway. IBM x86 servers offer much better corporate support, given a heftier price tag.

As far as the Dell workstations, really, if they're network boot, there's probably not going to be much need for tech support, unless there's a hardware failure / warranty issue.

Lastly, I'm not sold yet on the security of smart cards. All it takes is for people to leave them in their desks or forget them in the washroom or something and you have a security problem. And I'd bet in those environments you see that a lot of the former.

--
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Re:Sun Rays by joshmccormack · 2004-08-12 08:20 · Score: 1

I live in Queens, NYC and all the libraries are brimming with big LCDs. My tiny local branch has 6, I think.
Re:Sun Rays by trisweb · 2004-08-12 08:55 · Score: 1

Like I said way up the line, it all depends on how many systems the library needs. If they need 10, then the initial cost of a sunray system is just not worth it; yes, building them would take time, and maintaining them would need some extra work, but these things can be managed. I'm sure I could get someone to build a library 10 moderate systems like that with everything ready to go for a decent price. Heck, I'd do it for him.

My point was that the comparison of the sunrays to the PCs was not fair in the least.

And if you want them to be managable, there are thin-client solutions not from sun and not expensive, where you can buy one server box and lots of harddriveless old PCs with supported network cards, mice, keyboards, and displays and make a cheaper solution that's as easy to manage as the exorbitant sunrays.

To answer your question, yes, I understand the cost of maintenance. But the grandparent didn't understand the difference between a superworkstation and a thin client, and was giving an unfair comparison, so I had to say something.

--
"!"
Re:Sun Rays by WebCrapper · 2004-08-12 09:20 · Score: 1

Floor space can be relevant if you are a rep that likes to spread out. Its also a pain for the IT guys to crawl under the desk every time something goes wrong. On top of that, vacuuming, floor cleaning and flooding (I've seen machines fried due to it) can cause issues too. I'm just not a tower person anymore and I like my deskspace.

Dell has been used by many a corporate customer, including the government, which is why I used them for pricing. IBM honestly didn't cross my mind. I may add them in over the next few days, but I honestly don't see anything changing between myself and the founders of the company - the Thin Clients fit too well.

Hardware failure and warranty issues are something that takes technicians to handle. In a larger environment like a major call center, I don't need 4 to 5 people running around fixing machines all day. I also don't want them handling server side issues all day either. The Thin clients offer the best of both worlds by allowing a smaller number of admins with more desks being served.

Smartcards - I can understand the security point, but all reps have the same level of access in our scenario. Anyone with more access (manager, programmer, etc) will be using a PC (but thats a different report that hasn't been written yet). I've never lost my badge in an employers building before, I've lost it outside my house once. Besides, part of being a reasonable employer is to trust your employees, but we could offer a bounty for turned in cards as well.

I'm also using the feedback, both public and via email to beef up the doc as well. I've got some good suggestions that would help the argument on both sides of the line.
Re:Sun Rays by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 09:26 · Score: 0

While I agree with you that a high end processor and ram are not what a library setup needs - what they do need is hardware support, and currently the Dell GX270 is right in the middle of hardware power/support/lifespan and price. It happens to be a P4 2.8/512mb of ram, 3yr warranty.

Building a system from scratch isn't a bad idea, it's just not as good from a support stand point.

Where I work we get the above mentioned Dell GX270 and a 17" flat panel for under $1k, and truth be told it does not need to be that powerful for our end users (win2k,office,notes), but we buy it anyway because it's the baseline.

For a terminal client you could get by with VIA processors, but you do need a vendor who supply's warranty and support for the product in any business enviornment. As the article says, vendor support would help sell the idea to the powers that be.

Sun's argument is weak because it doesn't put any perspective on the continual cost of upgrades within the Sun plan. Much like Microsoft, there is a price to play with Sun.

My personal preference - Via mini-itx boxes can be had for much less, and have built-in video, audio, lan, low power requirements and are QUIET (no fans) - perfect for a library, but then again who makes these in with a warranty and support. The back-end would best be handled by something with bettery onsite support. LTSP and whatever open-source solution you prefer.

The sun solution probably requires a support payment and ongoing costs that are higher than a linux solution.
Re:Sun Rays by rainman_bc · 2004-08-12 10:42 · Score: 1

Besides, part of being a reasonable employer is to trust your employees
FWIW, statistics show that ~80% of security issues are internal (IIRC - somewhere around there anyway).

Good luck with the Sun Rays... Sounds like a swanky solution for sure, all I was saying was on hardware costs alone, I think your findings were a bit bloated... Might have been an accident.

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Re:Sun Rays by xsbellx · 2004-08-12 12:49 · Score: 1

3. By far the best feature, as mentioned before, is the smartcard. We exclusively use SunRays at work, and I can go over to another person's desk and plug in my card to show them what I'm doing, etc. A user could move about the library and not have to keep their jacket on a chair to call dibs for a computer. This makes more terminals available at any given time.

I am not trying to be a smartass (for a change) but I really do not understand the hoopla surrounding smartcards in this type of environment. It is my understanding, and PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, that Sun Rays require a smartcard for use. If this is correct, a couple of questions leap to mind:

1) How will the smartcards be distributed? Will I pick one up when I walk in or will there be a standard "guest" type card in the machine?

2) In any high-traffic, public use area, hardware will take a beating. It would be my guess that the smartcards will be the first things hit. Any ideas on the expected life span of the cards and what the replacement costs will be over the next year, three years and five years?

Any insight will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

--
If VISTA is the answer, you didn't understand the question
Re:Sun Rays by donuthole · 2004-08-12 14:20 · Score: 1

Disclaimer: I work for Sun in the Solaris group... blah blah, I'm biased, brainwashed, etc. etc.
1) How will the smartcards be distributed? Will I pick one up when I walk in or will there be a standard "guest" type card in the machine?
This is an interesting problem... I see several possibilities:
a) Library card == smartcard. This solves the distribution problem nicely, but possibly raises the cost of manufacturing the library card. i.e.: not everybody who needs a library card will need a smartcard.
b) Fixed pool of smartcards... maybe if you have x SunRays, you could have x or 1.3x smartcards. At the librarian-desk, have users sign in and leave their keys/driver's license as a deposit to get a smartcard. This solves a couple of nice problems: no more lining up for a computer. If you want a computer, go sign in and put your name down on a central wait list to get a smartcard (assuming you use x smartcards). If you use 1.3x (or some multiplier), then it's nice because not all of those users have to necessarily be using a SunRay. i.e.: I envision a situation where most users will be going between the shelves, and a SunRay with a high amount of mobility. Having more than x smartcards will allow the SunRays to be more fully utilised.
2) In any high-traffic, public use area, hardware will take a beating. It would be my guess that the smartcards will be the first things hit. Any ideas on the expected life span of the cards and what the replacement costs will be over the next year, three years and five years?
Wish I had a more precise answer for you there, but consider this: every employee at Sun has a JavaBadge/smartcard. I use mine everyday, day in, day out. I can't find specific numbers of the lifespan of the cards, but I imagine if they were good enough for Sun to issue to all of its employees, they would be good enough for library use. That's an interesting question though, and one I'd like to find the answer for. :)
Re:Sun Rays by nodrogluap · 2004-08-13 06:58 · Score: 1

You do not need a smartcard to log into a SunRay. By default ZeroAdmin authentication policy is used, which allows any card to access any station. You can give some or all users smartcards to enable "HotDesking", as Sun calls it.

I've been using a smart card every day for close to 3 years. It hasn't had any problems yet. For pricing you'd have to ask Sun, or buy directly from Schlumberger (the supported smart card comes from them). You can find out more about the smart card aspect of SunRays in the following whitepaper:

http://wwws.sun.com/sunray/whitepapers/sunray1.s ma rtcards.wp.pdf
Re:Sun Rays by jonadab · 2004-08-16 04:46 · Score: 1

> I've never known a library to use 19" monitors for anything

We are moving in that direction. 19" CRTs (18" viewable) or 17" LCD, depending
on physical space requirements. We quit buying 15" CRTs several years ago and
are now choosing 19" over 17" a significant proportion of the time.

A 19" CRT these days barely costs any more than a 17" CRT, and they are
significantly easier on the eyes of many of our patrons, who do not all have
the eyesight they used to have. (Seems to be a bigger problem than when I
was a kid. I blame it on television; don't know whether there's actually
a cause-effect relationship there, but it feels good to blame television for
something more concrete than moral degradation.) We find that going to 19"
allows us to set the resolution to 1024x768 without making most folks squint;
on a 17" monitor, 800x600 is pushing it for many and 1024x768 is right out;
on a 15" monitor (of which we no longer have any except all-in-one units such
as iMacs[1]) the resolution really can't be set any higher than 640x480,
which isn't even an option on newer versions of certain OSes.

LCDs would be slightly better due to the extra inch you get out of their more
honest screen size notation, except that they look like exrement at normal
resolutions, basically forcing you to crank them up to their "native" res,
which results in a lot of squinting. But we nevertheless use them sometimes,
particularly in cramped locations where a 19" CRT would be unweildy. I look
for LCDs with a relatively low ratio of native res to diagonal measure, to
minimize squinting. (This is counterintuitive, since looking for smaller res
numbers violates the "more is better" principle. I guess in this case the
normally-inane "less is more" principle actually applies. Phooey.)

[1] And VT510s, which are even *smaller*, but those are amber-on-black, which
significantly cuts down on eyestrain right there, and in any case we'll
be moving away from them circa 2005-2006 when we migrate from Galaxy to
a more modern ILS.

--
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.

Money Not a Factor - Use Citrix by azadism · 2004-08-11 18:59 · Score: 4, Informative

If you have the money for Citrix, they provide a great thin-client on option where with the hardware you can put Linux on the client and have put straight into Citrix. 99.99% of the users will never know the difference.

--
Daily Shenanigans

Re:Money Not a Factor - Use Citrix by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:11 · Score: 0

They say not to feed the trolls, but remind me so much of the comedy routines on 22 minutes.
Re:Money Not a Factor - Use Citrix by DMadCat · 2004-08-11 22:51 · Score: 1

For that matter, you could just get a copy of Windows 2003 server and run Windows Terminal Services and save time and trouble with Citrix.

My company is currently phasing out Citrix in favor TS just to save on the extra licensing for Citrix. Really the only extra thing Citrix has (at least that we miss) was true load balancing but with just one or even a couple of servers that won't really be necessary.

Of course if you don't want to spend a bundle on hardware and software but you want something that'll run on cheap PCs with little or no fuss just grab a version of Knoppix, customize it to your needs, pop it into the CD drive of a cheap machine, and go to town.

Since "guests" can't unmount a mounted CD you won't have to worry about anyone taking it and since it's CD based you won't have to worry about anyone screwing up the configuation. If the CD dies you just burn another one.
Re:Money Not a Factor - Use Citrix by j0217995 · 2004-08-12 00:27 · Score: 1

Agreed. We use Citrix here at the bank I work at and it works wonders. The local libary, Kent County Library system, don't remember its official name, but they use Citrix across the board. Boots into a webpage, kiosk mode, that requires a valid library card to "sign in". Never had a problem with them the times I've been there.
Re:Money Not a Factor - Use Citrix by 3chuck3 · 2004-08-12 03:10 · Score: 1

Disclaimer: I am a lazy Windows/Citrix Admin, and closet Knoppix geek, disgunted former Desktop Temp

I agree, if you have money for CAL (Client Access Licenses) on the Citrix and Windows. It is a good supported Thin Client solution. You need to match up the number of Windows Server acess and Terminal Services Cals and Citrix client licenses.

I would vote with the others about a locked down Linix, esp Knoppix, solution for the stations.
Re:Money Not a Factor - Use Citrix by Xibby · 2004-08-12 04:07 · Score: 1

Why use Citrix on a LAN? Citrix shines over a modem connection, or if you're embedding an application in a webpage, or doing lots of load balancing (mutiple application servers.)

On a LAN though, I don't see any advantage to Citrix over Microsoft's built in Terminal Services.

Windows Server 2003 in Application Server mode, get a good switch, and some WYSE WinTerms, and you will have what you want without paying money to both Microsoft and Citrix. Of course there is plenty of licensing fun whenever Microsoft products are involved.

Would I go for Thin Clients over full blown desktops? Most definitly. Once your server is up and running, you don't have to install clients. Over time, that alone will save you an untold number of man hours. Since you're not constantly pusing out software updates to your clients, you also don't need as solid of a network. RDP works find over 10baseT at half duplex....can't say that about a Windows Desktop when you're patching with Service Pack 2.

However, you'll get the most bang for your buck with a Linux soultion. You'll have to have a bet better network inferstructure, XDMCP isn't as efficent as RDP. But on the server side, it's easy to overload Windows servers. Database goes on one server, software distribution systems on another, file and print sharing on another server, and Active Directory on yet another...

You're not going to be able to get away with running a proxy server to filter webcontent on your Windows terminal server, you'll need another machine for that. With Linux, you'll be able to get away with it much easier.

G'luck and be sure to come back and tell us what you come up with. :)

--
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
Re:Money Not a Factor - Use Citrix by Mr.FreakyBig · 2004-08-12 05:45 · Score: 1

I've been administering Citrix for many years, since it was Winframe 1.6 and was a modified version of NT 3.51.

Citrix just works. Another advantage is they support so many different client OS's. So, if you want to pay on the server side for Terminal Server CALs and Citrix Licenses, you get use a free OS, such as Linux and the Citrix client. If you already have Windows 2000 clients, you don't need to purchase TS CALS at all, its part of OS. Windows XP Pro also includes TS CALs.

List price for Citrix Metaframe Presentation server is $300 per concurrent user. You will also have to purchase Microsoft Terminal Server Client Access Licenses, which are less expensive, if I recall in the $10 per seat range.

I would be surprised that a library would have to pay full price for either the Windows or Citrix licenses.

As for server hardware, I was just at a Citrix user group where a Citrix SE claimed new dual AMD Operteron systems with 6 GB of RAM running Windows Server 2003 and Metaframe Presentation Server 3 could easily support 200 concurrent users. Last I checked, these boxes are not really that expensive in comparison to a room full of Dell boxes.

So, rough estimates of a dual HP Proliant DL145 with 2 Operteron 248 (2.2 Ghz) and 8 GB of RAM runs around $9000 with Windows Server 2003 installed.

The price of Citrix Software varies depending upon the number of concurrent users you expect, for example $9000 for 30 users at full list price.

The client works on quite junky computers, anything that can boot, has a good enough video card to display at 1024x768 or better, will run the Citrix client. They don't have to be fast, they just have to work.

--Peter

RE: Thin Client Solutions For Libraries? by zynthaxx · 2004-08-11 19:00 · Score: 1

I don't know what kind of server equipment you've got, but since you'll be running IE then I guess you've got some kind of Terminal Server or Citrix solution. Take a look at http://www.linpro.no/english, and ask them about their product Multiframe. It might be just what you're looking for: Not very expensive, Linux-based, very light footprint, very simple to administer.

EZLINK by IronMagnus · 2004-08-11 19:07 · Score: 2, Funny

...just use the EZLink internet terminals from Pantheon.. if Adam west endorses it.. it must be good!!! :(

SunRays by _Sprocket_ · 2004-08-11 19:07 · Score: 1

Sun's SunRays always seemed fairly interesting. And I've seen them used by a crew who run the dataroom for a national security conference (with glowing praise).

Consider Windows Terminal Server by eraser.cpp · 2004-08-11 19:08 · Score: 1, Informative

I've setup a classroom before with LTSP, and although it was impressive it had many shortcomings. For a non-linux veteran it could also introduce security vulnerabilities. I suggest you instead take a look at Windows terminal server, the CALs are sometimes even included in a site license.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/evalu at ion/casestudies/CaseStudy.aspx?CaseStudyID=13563

Re:Consider Windows Terminal Server by beakburke · 2004-08-11 19:24 · Score: 1

How is LTSP less secure than WinTS?

--
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
Re:Consider Windows Terminal Server by eraser.cpp · 2004-08-11 19:42 · Score: 1

I said that somebody inexperienced with linux (as the poster says s/he is) could easily produce an insecure setup. This is of course true for any system, but properly delegating privileges in LTSP is much harder.
Re:Consider Windows Terminal Server by bangalla · 2004-08-11 22:47 · Score: 1

I helped plan a Windows Terminal Server rollout for a Library with a number of WAN connected branches. We found WTS gave us great flexability, we use it for public access to the online catalog and public internet access as well as for the Library Management Systems.

A thin client environment gave everything a speed boost as it reduced the amount of network traffic, we had a dedicated gigabit link between the terminal server and the LMS.

Regardless of whether you decide to use Linux or Windows for your servers I would recommend a thin client setup for an environment like a Library which has so many different specialised needs.

--
I want to use these Mod points but I can't find anything Interesting, Informative or Insightful on Slashdot.

How about a nice friendly Mac? by furball · 2004-08-11 19:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

It works.

If you've attended the Apple stores they have Macs sitting around for people to interact with and even though a good deal of the interaction is unsupervised, nothing destructive happens with the box and life is relatively good.

Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by Foo2rama · 2004-08-11 19:16 · Score: 1

they refreash the hd's everynight. They have custom scripts for it.

--

---In a time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey.
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by Tokerat · 2004-08-11 19:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

they refreash the hd's everynight. They have custom scripts for it.
...which is exactly the type of thing that would be perfect for a library! If you want to get really cheap, x86 running Linux can do just the same, but isnt' as user friendly. (No, sorry, it isn't. Linux has come a long way but nothing X11 beats OS X.) Even if a machine was tampered with durring the day, at 9PM while and janitors are vacuuming away the terminals (Macs or otherwise) can be humming along restoring themselves (and in the process keeping the janitors from looking up porn). Mac IE renders mostly everything just fine but ActiveX sites are completely useless (but let's face it, most sites that use ActiveX won't be nessesary for library research...at least not any I can think of). Firefox and Safari are both very well done browsers as well, I haven't come across a page yet that either of them can't handle, although Safari has some quirks with full-page Flash sites...

--
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by hcdejong · 2004-08-11 19:42 · Score: 4, Informative

And maybe use NetBoot for centralized administration, which should make it easy to reset the clients to a default state.
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by IamTheRealMike · 2004-08-11 20:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

Um, the guy said that "IE was a minimum", that's IE for Windows not for MacOS - they are totally different and IE for Mac can't render all the pages IE for Windows can.
Let's assume the poster is serious about their requirements. If you're just going to ignore hard customer specifications like "must run IE" then feel free to post but it will be ignored by the people actually doing the work (ie, them).
If you read the whole post it seems the only two systems that'd do what (s)he needs are:
1) Windows Terminal Services
2) Some form of Linux/LTSP with a copy of Wine/CrossOver Office Server edition to run IE and MS Office. CodeWeavers sell a version of Wine specifically kitted out to run thin clients, because it's massively more efficient than Citrix/RDP-type solutions.
It rules out anything based on "pure" open source because of the IE/MSOffice requirement, probably anything Linux based is ruled out on the grounds of staff availability and familiarity, and I'm afraid Mac is definitely ruled out. Sorry.
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by mrchaotica · 2004-08-11 20:23 · Score: 1

I second that. Macs are the most user-friendly solution (at least equal to Windows, if not better) and are also undoubtedly easier to administer. And considering that iMacs are no more expensive than decent Dells with LCD monitors, and maybe even cheaper than Sun Rays and such, there's no real downside.

The other advantage Macs have over Sun Rays is that users won't think "what the heck is this?" when they walk up to the thing.

Linux is probably a bit cheaper (although eMacs could probably compete even then), but it's not as user-friendly and won't have as much vendor support.

--
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by pe1rxq · 2004-08-11 20:48 · Score: 1

IE or Mozilla was also mentioned.
From this I think Mozilla on another platform would also be acceptable.

Jeroen

--
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by serviscope_minor · 2004-08-11 21:07 · Score: 1

hat's IE for Windows not for MacOS

I call bullshit. He didn't say that, he said IE was a minimum. There was no indication whatsoever that the Windows version was necessary, as opposed to the mac version.

--
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by Iftekhar25 · 2004-08-11 23:09 · Score: 1

Ehheh. Basically, the Mozilla browser should be good enough for their needs. And like another poster said, it's basically a problem with the webpage if a browser can't load it. Mozilla and Safari and Firefox use the same open-source HTML rendering engine, and any decent website out there should be compatible with it, since these browsers occupy a sizeable portion of the web browser market.

And as far as ruling out any other alternative just because they want MS Office is wrong, since Microsoft actively develops MS Office for the Macintosh platform, and OpenOffice.org is getting better at what they do (though they have a long way to go). A full-fledged, alternative MS Office implementation *does* exist on the Macintosh, which makes it the most compelling alternative, even more than Linux.
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by IamTheRealMike · 2004-08-11 23:16 · Score: 0

Well, clearly Mozilla is not an alternative as Mozilla is not fully compatible with many web pages out there.
This is a common problem, especially in corporate scenarios. Mozilla/Firefox are great but for many users who browse non-geeky sites (my brother is a musician and has this problem) there are still way too many sites with IE only code in them.
So I can't say I blame them for wanting to run IE.
Anyway, I'd object to a Mac on other grounds: the whole reason the IT industry is in the mess it is, is because a proprietary platform took hold and then took over. The logical conclusion to pushing Macs is for Apple to be the next Microsoft, which would be a very silly thing indeed.
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by ischorr · 2004-08-12 01:03 · Score: 2, Informative

Really? How many? ...Having spent a lot of time on the Moz Tech Evangalism team, I'd have to say that the number of websites that aren't standards-compliant enough to be viewed by Mozilla is well below 1%.

There are definitely still sites that are incompatible with Mozilla. However, unless there are specific sites that you need that are incompatible (usually sites that require ActiveX, which for Windows there's at least an ActiveX plugin for Mozilla), this "incompatibility" thing just isn't a good enough reason anymore. And if people start to use Mozilla (or other non-IE browsers), most of the leftover web sites will come around...
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:15 · Score: 0

In fact, a library, kiosk, or something should do this every *Session*, not just every night.
You don't want one user installing a keylogger that affects the next user.
Re:How about a nice friendly Mac? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:32 · Score: 0

Actually, I largely disagree with that. The only reason to push for Macs is to change one corporate monopoly into another? At this stage? I think that's thinking a bit too far ahead.

Taking Microsoft down (which is what you're talking about when you talk about a proprietary platform, I'm assuming) is challenge enough. Anyone that's gone head-to-head with Microsoft has been very simply defeated.

The only reason Apple has survived was *because* it never went head-to-head with Microsoft. The entire Apple vs. Microsoft thing is just illogical thinking. Refer to this brilliant article for more details:

http://daringfireball.net/2004/08/parlay/

I'm not sure what other Mac evangelists are after when they push for Apples, but I'd push for Apple primarily because it's got a low market share, not because it has more. No viruses, no spyware, clean software, hardware and software communicating seemlessly (a luxury Microsoft just doesn't have) and cost-competitiveness.

What I'd also push for would be diversity. The very reason computer systems around the world are so vulnerable is because of lack of diversity. Why do you think chicken flu outbreaks are so devastating? Farm chickens are genetically very similar to each other, one virus affects them all. It's the same with Microsoft. If 95% of computers use Microsoft, a single flaw in that will demolish 95% of computers.

The solution isn't Linux all by its lonesome, or Apple all by its lonesome. Sure, the companies want that, but an optimum system would be the colours of the rainbow, enough diversity for vulnerabilities not to debilitate a sizeable number of computers so as to cause significant economic damage. Vulnerabilities and viruses will be there, you have to evolve, and the best way to evolve is to be diverse.

Thinstation by Errtu76 · 2004-08-11 19:11 · Score: 5, Informative

Thinstation is a 'distro' that i'm currently using at work (a hospital). It can be used to connect to Citrix, RDP, VNC, Unix, Telnet/SSH, or (with the help of fluxbox/icewm) as a lightweight standalone linux workstation (with an optional FireFox package). The people on the mailinglist are VERY helpful as well, so you don't need to worry about support when you've a problem.

I can really recommend it as a thinclient solution.

Re:Thinstation by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:36 · Score: 1, Informative

Agreed - Thinstation blows other thin client solutions away.

It does also support client side floppies (as well as USB sticks, printers etc) AND you can make a perfect kiosk with Firefox. I have a couple of these myself and I'm very pleased. Kiosks seems important for a library...

Sun Rays-Does this "client" make me look fat? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:11 · Score: 0

Well Sun Rays and other thin clients. Personally I would go with thin clients(1) and servers because basically this is a one person show. And if they're one of the librarians that's additional work.

(1) Don't forget some of the small form factor PC's you've seen here.

Hmmm... by Combuchan · 2004-08-11 19:11 · Score: 5, Funny

phatlipmojo writes "I'm a librarian ..."

Funny. When I was a kid librarians were named Ann, Phyllis, or Doris.

--
"[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater

Re:Hmmm... by Nakkel · 2004-08-11 19:20 · Score: 0, Funny

I think hes a big fat monk^H^H^H^Hape.
Re:Hmmm... by Nakkel · 2004-08-11 19:49 · Score: 0

-1 Flamebait, hmh... Perhaps this would have been better in the parent, The Librarian

You illiterate clods :P
Re:Hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:54 · Score: 0

Really? I thought they were all named Miss :-)

Thin Client Resources by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:12 · Score: 5, Informative

There are plenty of resources for thin client computing in a library environment.

I would start by checking out the case studies that are listed at citrix.com. One immediately comes to mind: http://www.citrix.com/site/aboutCitrix/caseStudies /caseStudy.asp?storyID=13818

Incidentally, the man in question here runs a little site by the name of http://www.thethin.net/. It is hands down, the number one resource for thin client solutions on the web. Join the list and listen in for a while, I guarantee you'll learn more about terminal server and thin clients during the first week on this list than you will learn in any classroom.

Good luck to you!

Re:Thin Client Resources by TheOtherKiwi · 2004-08-11 20:51 · Score: 1

Yes, I coded a little app that eliminates the desktop bypassing the desktop...making it look like the machine "boots" into the remote session so the local desktop and all its settings (and dangers) are bypassed...when the user logs out, the machine, either logs out or shuts down. If ya need it, just holler.

--

-- Sig meltdown immine...

Here they use Sun terminals by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:13 · Score: 3, Informative

At my university (http://www.kuleuven.be/) the library uses Sun terminals. Searching for books can be done online from your dorm or from one of the netscape browsers running on the Sun thingies.

The Sun computers look very sharp, are very small and are all accompanied by a LCD display. They run some sort of Linux-Unix like OS.

There is also StarOffice installed on all computers so you can type something and mail it to yourself

The books themselves have RFID tags on them (or something like that, the building knows when you take a book) and you have to enter/leave by using your University ID card

Re:Here they use Sun terminals by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:17 · Score: 0

The website of this library:

http://www.wbib.kuleuven.ac.be/?l=2/

It's the library of the sience and engineering section of the http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/
Re:Here they use Sun terminals by 0x0d0a · 2004-08-11 21:37 · Score: 2, Funny

The Sun computers look very sharp, are very small and are all accompanied by a LCD display. They run some sort of Linux-Unix like OS.

I'm waiting for that guy posting all the pro-Sun stuff to see this and gag. ;-)

--
May we never see th

IE requirement? by tepples · 2004-08-11 19:16 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm also hoping we'll be able to offer web access (IE and Mozilla, hopefully. IE at a minimum)

How much would the administration be willing to budge on the IE requirement?

Re:IE requirement? by Steve_Jobs_HNIC · 2004-08-12 01:09 · Score: 1

exactly, drop IE, go to Firefox.

And for the love of gawd, POLICIES AND PROFILES!!!

XP is not _that_ bad. With just a few tweaks, you can lock down almost anything. If you only want to run Word, Excel, etc, Then use the restrict run key (wow, what a concept). XP/2003 has over 400 policy options!!!!! compared to around 200 on Win2000.

If a machine starts acting funny, then drop your image from the Ghost Console server. It will shutdown the machine, drop the image, rename it, and reboot it. You'll be back to normal in about 15-20min on an average network. And it only takes one or two clicks!!

I'm almost convienced that people who complain about XP's stability, blue screens, etc will have the same problem no matter where they go, Mac, Linux, whatever. They'll try to run all their favorite apps at the same time (Bonzi Buddy, Hot Shots, Weather Bug, and all that other crap) and wonder why their machine is so slow.
Re:IE requirement? by jdhawke · 2004-08-12 02:55 · Score: 1

Hmmm last time I checked, Bonzai Buddy, Hot Shots, Weatherbug and most other Crap in the same class of software won't run on any platform other than windows. (Though there may be Mac versions of some I guess) So if you do use a non-microsoft solution, it can quickly become a non-issue without having to configure a profile to prevent it.

Also 400 policy options is great, if you have a tech who is able to decipher the Microsoftese involved and make sure that some innocuous looking setting you think will help won't end up crippling the entire system.

Just my thoughts on things.

KIOSK Howto by houghi · 2004-08-11 19:17 · Score: 1

I am not sure if this will help you at all. There is a Kiosk HOWTO that might give you some ideas. A lot of it is very old. It however explains how to use only one program, a browser. I am sure you could link function keys to different programs.

Also links to robust keyboards and mice.

If you decide NOT to go for thin clients, see that the hardware is able to reboot from scratch, so when you do a remote instalation (or upgrade) you do not have to go to each and every PC to press a key to get the machine booted.

--
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.

CLP used Sun Rays. by solios · 2004-08-11 19:18 · Score: 1

The Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh used to have a couple of labs of Sun Ray 100s. Bit on the pricy side, but they kicked ass when they were in service.

Unfortunately, CLP canned 'em and replaced them with Windows boxes. Most likely cheaper than a Sun support contract. :-|

Sick thing is that due to tax / tax code reasons, they couldn't donate the hardware to anyone else. It got tossed into the dumpster. :(

Re:CLP used Sun Rays. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:58 · Score: 0

"The Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh used to have a couple of labs of Sun Ray 100s. Bit on the pricy side, but they kicked ass when they were in service.

Unfortunately, CLP canned 'em and replaced them with Windows boxes. Most likely cheaper than a Sun support contract. :-|

Sick thing is that due to tax / tax code reasons, they couldn't donate the hardware to anyone else. It got tossed into the dumpster. :("

Dude, I would have been doing some dumpster diving then.

Don't you just love it when people waste your tax dollars like this?

Seriously by kwelch007 · 2004-08-11 19:19 · Score: 1

I've helped install large networks of thin-clients (over 500 seats.) Given, it was years ago with some of the first IBM thin-clients and NT 4.0 terminal service.

People at public terminals mostly want web access. If such apps as Word Processors, Spreadsheets, etc., are required for your application, I suggest OpenOffice...it works great!

Managing viruses, etc, is only possible when when end-users do not have "root" or "administrator" access to the physical machine that they are using (including the "Terminal" server.)

Re:Seriously by kwelch007 · 2004-08-11 19:36 · Score: 1

Forgive me...that was a rash response, but not incorrect.

My mother is a high-school librarian, and I have become commonly frustrated by her financial and technological position in that role (she asks my advice on many tech' decisions.)

Look. An X86 with an ethernet connection pretty much satifies 99% of "public" desires for "Internet Access".

For the purposes of satisfying those (99%) requirements without risking security, run Phlax off of the CD and make users use Mozilla. For those wishing for "Office" support, try a Phlax (or similar) distribution that has OpenOffice.

It is safest if run off of a non-writable media (such as CD.)

ComputerBank have done this in an Aus Library by tpgp · 2004-08-11 19:19 · Score: 4, Interesting

The great mob of volunteers down at Computerbank (a charitable organisation that refurbishes used PCs to run linux and be donated to community groups & individuals) have implemented a thin client system running linux at the Footscray Library in Melbourne, Australia.

Done for virtually no money- and plenty of the users prefer the interface to the more complicated windows systems running along side it!

Read their white paper and (if in Melbourne) go down to the Footscray Library (56 Paisley St, Footscray) and check it out!

--
My pics.

Real answers... by wcdw · 2004-08-11 19:23 · Score: 4, Informative

Lots of people talking about 'how-to', but nobody really answering your question. Typical slashdot...

The advantages of thin clients in this type of environment are many. It's almost impossible for a user to screw up what is effectively nothing but a terminal.

Downsides would include the need for a more expensive server on the back-end, as all the horsepower now has to reside in one place. Also, when the server dies, _everybody_ dies.

And if you use commodity hardware for the thin client, it can be harder to lock things down on the client end. General rule of thumb is NO drives of any kind with the client configured to boot across the network.

Many people have suggested the SunRay, and it's hard to argue with that - it's one of the first thin clients that's really usable (IMHO).

http://www.theboyz.biz/ Computer parts & more!

--
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!

Re:Real answers... by jgrahn · 2004-08-11 20:31 · Score: 1

The advantages of thin clients in this type of environment are many. It's almost impossible for a user to screw up what is effectively nothing but a terminal.

I didn't mind it a few years back, when public libraries used to have real terminals for browsing the catalogue. I.e. something like a VTxxx and a serial link to the server. No GUI of course, but, if done right, more user-friendly IMHO than a PC with a small screen and some ugly web interface to the catalogue. Plus, anything that can run a terminal program can be used, from real terminals through ancient discarded PCs to high-end machines.
Re:Real answers... by Errtu76 · 2004-08-11 21:40 · Score: 1

Lots of people talking about 'how-to', but nobody really answering your question. Typical slashdot...

I have to admit, i did the same; providing a solution without looking at the question .. *shame*

Also, when the server dies, _everybody_ dies.

Ofcourse, if you don't use a backup server. Heartbeat etc., and nobody will feel a thing when a server suddenly goes down.

And if you use commodity hardware for the thin client, it can be harder to lock things down on the client end. General rule of thumb is NO drives of any kind with the client configured to boot across the network. Many people have suggested the SunRay, and it's hard to argue with that - it's one of the first thin clients that's really usable (IMHO).

We use WYSE WBTs here. Totally diskless with just the bare minimum software to connect to the servers. Easy to administer and deploy. And if you're a little worried about the costs of Windows licenses (for the WBTs), you can buy them without software installed and load a custom (linux) image on them.
Re:Real answers... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:42 · Score: 0

Also, when the server dies, _everybody_ dies.

just have to say that the 99.999% up time does not look good any more.
Re:Real answers... by ewall · 2004-08-12 00:04 · Score: 1

Heh, yes, right on. More to those questions, then! As for me, I haven't worked in a library with thin client solutions; but I have worked in a library with stand-alone Win9x and hated it, and I have managed a large company site with Citrix thin clients and loved it.

I'd echo wcdw's upsides & downsides and add some comments:

Your thin client solution can be a real strength if you have a strong administrator. If s/he knows the system and how to tweak it, it can be secure from user meddling and strong enough to support a lot of clients from one server (60-70). But a newbie or unavailable thin client administrator may think that the job is easy (because it's quick to install the server and connect a few clients), but will be a detriment for the longhaul. Consider this in your planning: people cost a lot more than computers, espeically over time.

For your situation, a Windows 2003 Terminal Server would be quite reasonable. The Citrix tools would add a lot of security and monitoring tools as well as the ability to use DOS or Linux clients if you wanted to save a tiny bit on the client PCs, but for a small implementation (less than a few hundred) it's really not necessary.

The Terminal Server environment is flexible to lock down, configure exactly how you want it to appear, and upgrade or make changes; especially in a case like this, where everyone gets the same settings and you're closed at night so the admin can do upgrades as necessary. Yes, it's a downer that one problem is multiplied to everyone logged in; but at the same time, the solution takes effect immediately for everyone as well.

Anyway, that's enough rambling from me...

--
Karma Police, come arrest this man...

eMacs by panurge · 2004-08-11 19:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you have the room. Their downsides (very heavy single box solution) become virtues when the general public is concerned. They are hard to move, hard to steal, and - this is very important - can withstand abuse like an LCD can't. The keyboards are robust, you canuse ordinary cheap USB mice, the screen is bright and clear.
The design, with all the vents at the back, makes it hard for kids to try dropping paperclips and so on inside.

The only thing missing is the floppy drive, and I'd question whether that really is "missing". There are several workrounds if someone really needs floppy access.

SunRays are a good idea in more controlled environments but, at the end of the day, you still need physical terminals for the users. Terminals designed for use in uncontrolled environments tend to be expensive and not particularly state of the art as far as display type goes. I still think that most people still underestimate how well the eMac is designed for its environment.

--
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.

Re:eMacs by bobo+the+hobo · 2004-08-11 19:43 · Score: 2, Interesting

I helped set up an emac lab in my school's library. They're pretty good, OSX is great for restricting things down to being able to configure open-firmware to not boot from CDs without a password. Only real problems were kids stealing and breaking mice.
Re:eMacs by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:43 · Score: 3, Funny

I agree totally. Emacs is the perfect choice. Surely in this day and age everybody ought to know at least the basics like C-x C-f, C-x C-s etc. Web surfing can be done easily through w3m and as for mail users can bring their own .gnus files.

As you mention, emacs does need quite a heavy box to run though, but you can gain better performance if you run emacs in a nice 80x25 terminal.
Re:eMacs by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:04 · Score: 0

I think they're talking about Apple machines called eMacs

But I like your idea BETTER

GNU Emacs to the Rescue! (A superior text browser, editor, viewer...whatever)

If your forced to surf the web at a library, then you get a text browser only (take that porn aholics ^_^)

Hey someone give this guy a +4 in funny :)

Others need to see this

Here's how to do it. by kinki · 2004-08-11 19:23 · Score: 3, Informative

1) get a server, Raid1, 1G+ memory, gigabit ethernet. ie. the usual stuff.

2) install mandrake linux official 10.0 on it

3) install ltsp 4.1 http://www.ltsp.org/ on top of it

4) get a load of old PC hardware (everything up from pentium goes, all you need is a non s3-grahic card and one spare pci-bus)

5) rid the PCs with all moving parts (leave the fans though...)

6) get pxe-booting network cards for the clients (100mbit is fine, via-rhine for example)

7) fire up.

if you want to do it with new hardware, just buy some via epia+case combos =)

Mail me for more details - I can also do the actual job if being paid =)

--

++K

<[letter kay][at][number seventy seven][dot][finnish TLD]>

Re:Here's how to do it. by afd8856 · 2004-08-11 20:59 · Score: 1

S3's work, it just doesn't support that well the transparency and xrand features (for example, the font shadows in KDE get dithered, same with the cursor shadow in Fedora 2). Also, you need to specify X_SERVER = S3 in lts.conf. As for the hardware, I strongly recomand at least a P2 at 233, the difference in speed is big when compared for example with a P1 at 200Mhz. Network card: you don't need to flash roms, just use rom-o-matic and rawrite (or cat > fd0) to generate bootdisks. Configure the client to boot from the disk, and that's about it. One last thing: there are problems with Fedora 2, NFS and RTL8028. Avoid those cards!

--
I'll do the stupid thing first and then you shy people follow...
Re:Here's how to do it. by julesh · 2004-08-11 23:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

4) get a load of old PC hardware (everything up from pentium goes, all you need is a non s3-grahic card and one spare pci-bus)

5) rid the PCs with all moving parts (leave the fans though...)

I've found you can run anything up to a pentium 200MMX without a fan, if you have a large enough heatsink. And as the CPU cooling fan is _always_ the first component to fail in every computer I've ever put together, this is an important consideration.
Re:Here's how to do it. by kinki · 2004-08-13 01:02 · Score: 1

S3's work, it just doesn't support that well the transparency and xrand features (for example, the font shadows in KDE get dithered, same with the cursor shadow in Fedora 2). Also, you need to specify X_SERVER = S3 in lts.conf. Some of them work. Some don't. Someone please tell me how to tell the difference without trying.

--

++K

<[letter kay][at][number seventy seven][dot][finnish TLD]>
Re:Here's how to do it. by afd8856 · 2004-08-13 02:48 · Score: 1

I've never met an S3 old video card that would not work with this. Basic rules: it has to be at least 1 Mb of memory and you need to download and install the X_3 Xserver v. 3 from the LTSP download page.

--
I'll do the stupid thing first and then you shy people follow...
Re:Here's how to do it. by mnewton32 · 2004-08-13 17:05 · Score: 1

Better late than never?
I am, as I type, working on a P3 at 550 MHz, no fan on the CPU, and just an average sized heatsink. As long as you're not playing games or overclocking, the older processors just don't get that hot.

Multi-user Linux for Libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:23 · Score: 1, Informative

There's been a few stories about Multihead Linux recently. Here's an implementation built specifically for libraries:

http://userful.com/products/library

Unlike the common 'backstreet ruby' approach, the userful stuff can handle 8-10 heads at a time, with full acceleration.

For your purposes, it's already been integrated into a library situation...

XP embedded. by JVert · 2004-08-11 19:25 · Score: 0, Flamebait

XP embedded would be a good choice.
These guys can help you out: http://www.visionbank.com/eng/index.html

But, whatever, sounds like you want everyone to congratulate you for wanting to use linux.

Re:XP embedded. by jimmy_dean · 2004-08-12 01:05 · Score: 1, Insightful

We've deployed HP thin clients at work here using XPe and I must say that though in general it works fine, there are some big gotchas. Not every driver for a given peripheral works with XPe. Many times its impossible to get a device going at all. This is because XPe is a special version of Windows. Whereas with Linux on an embedded device such as a thin client, it's the same old Linux using the same old drivers. Of course the guy should be congratulated for wanting to use Linux. Anybody using anything other than Microsoft's OSes should always be congratulated.

--
-> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
Re:XP embedded. by JVert · 2004-08-12 04:45 · Score: 1

XP embedded is just a slimmed down version of XP. It has some extra features like disk write protection where nothing gets written to the hard drive, next reboot the system is restored. Third party programs have been around forever to do this, it just makes it easier when its already done for you.
Drivers shouldn't work any different on XPE vs XP. There were some limitations on directx but I think those are gone now. Perhaps you had some trouble using the devices through RDP. But I wouldn't use RDP in this case, XPe has full media player 9 and IE (yes, firefox too). Its not a ce.net system.
But my real concern is why the hell your modded offtopic.

Limux? by klokop · 2004-08-11 19:25 · Score: 1

LiMux, I thought that was the name the city of Munich gave to their Linux migration plan. As in a word composed of the other words. What do you call a word like that? Or is Munch using the system called Limux, and did I get me stories mixed up?

--
Passing silhouettes of strange illuminated mannequins

Re:Limux? by thesp · 2004-08-11 21:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

A word like that is called a 'portmanteau' word. It's got a nice story behind it; like 'chortle', it is one of the many words that Lewis Carrol, author of Alice in Wonderland, added to the language.

See Wikipedia and this site for more details.

I love the English language...

Grey market solutions by Kris_J · 2004-08-11 19:27 · Score: 1

There are a couple of thin and thick (fat?) client combination solutions that may technically violate the Windows XP EULA, if you're interested. The easy one is Thinsoft's BeTwin -- which allows you to run up to five stations off a PC if you've got enough video cards and USB keyboards and mice. That bit arguably doesn't violate the EULA. As a bonus it gives you one concurrent terminal services session that you can connect a thin client (or any RDP client) to. That does violate the EULA. If that doesn't scare you away, but BeTwin's pricing does (or you want to run Service Pack 2, which BeTwin isn't yet compatible with), you can modify SP2 to allow a single concurrent session without needing any extra software, just a dll from a specific SP2 beta. For information on this, join "Pass-TS" on (ironically) MSN Groups. This would allow you to buy half the number of PCs then the same number of thin clients. Won't help you with the blue screens (can't remember the last time one of our Dells blue-screened, most of the few problems involve simply not booting at all -- usually a dead CPU fan.), but can be a major cost saver. If you're willing to challenge the validity of a Windows EULA.

A more legal way to get to a similar end result is to install Win 2k3 on the PCs -- it comes with a legitimate extra terminal services session or two and educational pricing is pretty decent if you qualify -- certainly less than the cost difference between a fat client and a thin client.

Anyway, this is how I'd do it. No one single server managing a room of thin clients, but a series of mid-range PCs each managing 2-5 other stations.

Re:Grey market solutions by JVert · 2004-08-11 19:36 · Score: 1

Let me give a shout out to my homies at Thinsoft.
I dont recomend them.

We had a server go down running that was running BeTwin, we wanted to fix the problem remotely using one of the backup machines. But Thinsoft wouldn't authorize the backup computer. I dont mean the software, we called them up and they said no. I think we actually ended up purchasing another license. But we were done with them and moved on to 2003 servers.
Re:Grey market solutions by Kris_J · 2004-08-11 19:58 · Score: 1

It's all going to be pretty academic until they fix "BeTwin and WinConnect Server XP software currently do not support Windows XP Service Pack 2". But their BeTwin product is very impressive. I can have two copies of Diablo II running at the same time using it. Chugs a little, but it's even possible for one session to be a server and the other to connect to it for multiplayer gaming. Microsoft should steal the idea and bundle it with SP3.

Great by marcovje · 2004-08-11 19:32 · Score: 1

Our faculty library still uses vt220's. They are never down, and there are always enough fere.

PC's are too often either down, messed up, or used for non-library purposes.

Re:Great by jonadab · 2004-08-16 05:25 · Score: 1

> Our faculty library still uses vt220's.

We've got VT510s here for our library catalog, and they work great for that.

I'm not sure the public would accept them as an internet accesss solution,
though, much less for word processing.

--
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.

I work in a thin client environment by kavachameleon · 2004-08-11 19:33 · Score: 1

I work in a lab using several thin clients (I believe they're WYSE brand). They work very well, except for when floppies are needed. Since the clients don't have them, there's a media machine connected to the network with its floppy drive mounted as a network drive. A lot of users don't understand this. Also, I've got to say... we tried using SuSE on it, and a lot of users flat out refused to use it. We're at a college, so we've got to provide something people will use, and so we went back to Windows 2000 and provided some thick clients running SuSE for those few that liked it. We're pretty happy, overall. It at least makes administration/security easier. The biggest godsend is the amount of noise in the lab is incredibly lessened compared to thick clients.

Re:I work in a thin client environment by kavachameleon · 2004-08-11 19:38 · Score: 1

I found the clients we use: Wyse 1200le

Tarantella by canadiangoose · 2004-08-11 19:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm not a big fan of Windows, but there might be a good, cheap Windows solution that fits your needs. Remember SCO before they turned evil? They are still in business, but they have changed their name to Tarantella, and they sell this excellent product called 'Secure Global Desktop' (Yes, the name sucks) that works with all sorts of thin clients, from old Windows machines, to Linux, to new Wyse terminals. It requires a copy of Windows 2000 installed as a terminal server, but it's really, REALLY easy to use, and it's about half the price of Citrix. It's easy to add servers at any time to improve performance or uptime, and it's flexible enough that you could probably run the entire library system off of it, not just the public terminals.

I have to connections to Tarantella in any way, and I dislike Windows, but I must admit that this is a very good option.

--
Never eat more than you can lift -- Miss Piggy

Re:Tarantella by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:50 · Score: 1, Interesting

I've worked with it and it sucks. The binary only stuff will make your life hell.
Re:Tarantella by canadiangoose · 2004-08-12 05:02 · Score: 1

So you're saying that the product is useless just because the source is unavailable? That's really not entirely fair. The product does what it advertizes to do, and it's got a very clean, intuitive interface. Also, the technicians from Tarantella are smart and very friendly. When we asked for a demonstration, they sent two guys over who set up a two-server cluster for free! Switching from demo mode into production involved installing a new key (yes, I hate stupid license keys, but it was simple and painless). The company is also still small enough that they do make changes to the software at customer request, I've witnessed it first hand!
No, it's not OSS, and I wish it could be. Maybe it's flexibility is limited as a result, but it's an excellent option for someone who doesn't program and needs something powerful that 'just works'.

--
Never eat more than you can lift -- Miss Piggy

K-12 Linux Terminal Server Project by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:36 · Score: 2, Informative

http://k12ltsp.org/

K-12 Linux Terminal Server Project
Perfect for what you're looking for and already in use in various schools and libraries.

Not always sluggish by grahamsz · 2004-08-11 19:37 · Score: 1

I used them at work some of the time, and so long as the server isn't completely slammed they are usually pretty responsive.

Unfortunately mozilla, flash, staroffice etc... can end up being quite a resource hog.

Re:Not always sluggish by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:22 · Score: 0

I work for a major ILS vendor (hint, four letter name). We tested using Sun Ray's with our ILS and the web gateway portal. We were able to quickly prove that Sun Ray's weren't a good idea for a Library environment. Slow just didn't describe it. It was get up and go get coffee and a sandwich slow! This test included 8-12 people on the thin clients with other people logging into the system from thier PCs.

It wasn't the ILS that seem to cause the problems for us. It was the heavy web gateway traffic that seemed to kill the system. We even made a lite (text only) portal interface. That made things faster but it certainly wasn't pretty.
Re:Not always sluggish by grahamsz · 2004-08-13 08:57 · Score: 1

That doesn't seem right.

Right now mine has 150 users on a 12CPU/12Gb machine and Mozilla runs complex websites fine. Flash is a little sluggish but that's not too suprising.

requirements are contradictory and a bit confusing by Vellmont · 2004-08-11 19:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm also hoping we'll be able to offer web access (IE and Mozilla, hopefully. IE at a minimum), Word, Excel, and Powerpoint....

it would really comfort me not to pump several hundred dollars per machine into a monopolist's coffers for an OS we're just going to debilitate anyway

So you don't want Windows, but you want IE, Word, Excel and Powerpoint? I think MacOS has the office programs, but unless you want to run the ancient IE5, you're SOL.

I'd personally try to push you away from supporting a lot of apps outside of just plain-jane internet access. Supporting the apps is going to be a pain in the ass, and people are going to be taking up lots of time writing term papers, etc when others just want to check their email.

I really think you need to step back and look at what you really _need_ the system to do. From the details you've provided it doesn't seem like you really have a good grasp about what you want to provide, what your maintenance requirements are, etc.

Thin client is a nice buzz-word, but it doesn't have a huge amount of meaning. Does each client have a HD, or only minimal boot-roms? What about if the central server goes down, any thin-client won't be able to restart.

Hire someone that actually can help you with these problems and analyze the requirements, do research, etc. Slashdot can provide you with very raw information, but it really sounds like you need someone with more tech experience to analyze your situation.

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AccountKiller

NT Terminal Server by jtroutman · 2004-08-11 19:40 · Score: 1

(quit moaning Linux folks, it works)

I built a system around Windows NT Terminal server using Compaq i1000's (if I remember correctly, it's been several years) as the client box. These were great because they have such a tiny footprint and the necessary software can be installed without having a harddrive. Also no CD-ROM or floppy drive, so no installing malware.

With NT's "policy and profile" capability I was able to completely lock the boxes down, including things like what URL's the browser could go to and what icons were displayed. The NT interface is something most people are already comfortable with as it's pretty much the same as 98. A copy on Ebay with 25 licenses goes for about $200.

--
I stole this sig from a more creative user.

Re:NT Terminal Server by tehcyder · 2004-08-11 20:19 · Score: 1

no CD-ROM or floppy drive
He specifically said he wanted floppy drives...

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:NT Terminal Server by fu_yosemite · 2004-08-12 00:29 · Score: 1

Right, but NT security fixes and support dies at the end of the year. You'd want to do Terminal Services with Server 2003 since you'd be building a new system.
Re:NT Terminal Server by jtroutman · 2004-08-12 09:10 · Score: 1

um, yeah, missed that...get a different box then, but I still like NT.

--
I stole this sig from a more creative user.
Re:NT Terminal Server by jtroutman · 2004-08-12 09:18 · Score: 1

True, but finding support for NT shouldn't be difficult at all. The submitter also emphasized nat wanting to "pump several hundred dollars per machine into a monopolist's coffers for an OS we're just going to debilitate anyway.", NT's significantly cheaper than 2003.

I would have agreed with the people who recommended one of several Linux ditros available for thin-client, but since she wants to run Microsoft software (powerpoint, word, excel) I thought it might be simpler to have an MS OS.

--
I stole this sig from a more creative user.

Some drawbacks by MasterB(G)ates · 2004-08-11 19:40 · Score: 1

"What are the perks and what are the drawbacks"

The author did ask for some drawbacks as well as success stories. One most obvious is that thin clients have no computational power. So if your network goes down the terminals are rendered useless.

--
In the Slashdot moderating system, humourless based offenses are considered especially heinous.

Re:Some drawbacks by nion · 2004-08-11 19:58 · Score: 1

One most obvious is that thin clients have no computational power. So if your network goes down the terminals are rendered useless.

Well, yes...but if the *main* use of the terminals is internet access - if the network goes down the terminals are rendered useless regardless.

--
der dee der.
Re:Some drawbacks by tehcyder · 2004-08-11 20:22 · Score: 1

I think you've made a couple of elementary /. errors by
(a) attempting to answer his question, and
(b) not mentioning Linux.

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

refer to recent slashdot story by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:42 · Score: 0

There was a story recently (perhaps 1 or 2 months ago) where a computer lab in Africa(?) was using a single Linux machine with 4 keyboards, 4 mic, and 4 monitors. This makes life fairly easy because although you do not truly have a thin client, you do have 1/4 as many computers to maintain. Put a nice fast processor in the machine and have something like 2 GB of RAM, and it should be hard for one user to bog it down much and cause problems for the others. The floppy drive requirement is a little tough, but it seems you could handle this with perhaps USB floppy drives so that you can have as many as you want/need. Unfortunately, limiting access to only the "right" floppy when 4 floppies are plugged into one machine might be a tad bit tricky. (By the way, floppy drives *are* rapidly getting obsolete!)

By the way, in an environment like that, I'd be very VERY tempted to put the computer(s) inside a locked cabinet and run the cabling out to where the users can get at it.

By the way, how many terminals are we talking about here? 5? 10? 25? That piece of information could be helpful because it might influence the solution that you decide to go with.

A totally different solution is to just have a whole bunch of PCs but use some sort of software to, in effect, re-image them every time someone logs out. That's basically what they do at some of the labs at utexas.edu, and it is a little weird, but it seems to work quite well. No matter WHAT the user does to screw up the computer, it's all wiped out shortly after they leave, viruses and all.

Re:refer to recent slashdot story by Bert64 · 2004-08-11 22:34 · Score: 1

With unix, restricting the users to only accessing their own floppy drive is simple - chown the appropriate device to their userid at login, and mount it under their home directory to which only they have access. At logout, simply unmount it and chown the device back to root.

(the chown is so they can format disks etc, if necessary..)

As for preventing users from bogging the machine down too much, again unix caters for this with userlimits - you can restrict the amount of ram and other resources a single user can use, if you split the available ram in 4 and restrict each user to a quarter of the available resources.

--
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Re:refer to recent slashdot story by Locutus · 2004-08-12 06:37 · Score: 1

since it was stated( true? ) that USB floppy drives where going "away", I wonder if whay you mentioned could work with USB flash memory dongles? If somehow a USB port could be provided at each "head" then the user could just plug in his/her own memory card for local storage. Heck, it might even get used as the users persistant home directory if they had it plugged in during login.

The trick is to be able to tie a USB port to a location so that the right device was made accessable to the right "head"/location.

I've been thinking about a combination of LTSP and 4-headed clients for another level of price point.

LoB

--
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus

Best of all worlds by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:43 · Score: 0

I created a bootable CD that boots Windows from the CD. No hard drive required. Every time the computer boots, the operating system is "reinstalled". Once the system is up, everything is -lightning- fast.

Best part of it, if someone messes with the system, reboot. Catch a virus, reboot. Installs a keylogger, reboot.

Everyone get's the GUI and applications they're familiar with, with all of the applications you want them to have (I have Office and a couple other things installed usually) and absolutely -no- maintainance. It's Windows they way it should be, period. You don't have to explain how to use it, and no one has to log in.

I don't want any money (it's owned by Microsoft after all, they want your money, not me). If you're interested in more details you can email me, I could use a hand documenting the system (how to set it up the first time, make changes, whatnot). I suppose the documentation would be GPL'ed, but it'd be a GPL document about how to set up a Microsoft Operating System, which I find a tad weird.

I've been using this for around 2 years, and have switched all of my PC's over to it (booting off HD, or Flash-ATA. CD's for someone else). Most of the computers I support are set up with this as well (I'm typing this from my wife's computer, which is running off this setup).

If you send me an email, I can try to explain what I'm doing. robluce1@yahoo.com

Nope by tahii · 2004-08-11 19:43 · Score: 1

I work for a public library in New Zealand. We have just deployed thin clients for all the staff, and one for public internet access. We are using HP Compaw thin clients, running on Win2k Pro server The thin client for internet access works a treat, although you have to be careful with security settings if you are running them on the same network as the staff computers/library servers/district council stuff is on (which we are). For the staff, they all have access to Word, Excel, IE, and PowerPoint. Letting anyone use Powerpoint on thin clients is a bad idea. Runs like Uncle Jack on a curry: damn shitty. Perfectly fine for everything else however, and for the public to browse the library catelogue on. Being able to administer profiles from one location is also a big, big advantage.

Small Library Issue.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 19:48 · Score: 0

One issue I have encountered here in Douglasville, GA, (in the West Metro Atlanta Area)(and yes, the same state that was going to forbid discussions using the word evolution...)is that the County Library System was able to get several computers for public use donated to it by the Bill and Linda Gates Foundation.
Unfortunately EVERY SINGLE BOX was required to only use MS OS, MS Office and other MS Products to the COMPLETE EXCLUSION of any other software product - like even netscape... otherwise, the County would have to return the boxes to the Foundation......

If your going to be running Windows software: by TheLoneCabbage · 2004-08-11 19:59 · Score: 1

Go try server based computing based on Jetro
The Jetro CockpIT Universal Connector can make your life much easier providing you with 100% remote managed services with zero client side maintenance.

The nice part is that you can select ANY client device you want.

Go check: http://www.jp-inc.com

[note: I am employed by this company, but it is one of the greatest products I've ever worked on]

--
I would rather be ashes than dust!

If you're looking for thin clients... by shfted! · 2004-08-11 20:00 · Score: 2, Funny

If you're looking for thin clients at the library, I'd suggest keeping lending lots of books on diet and exercise.

--
He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.

Why not do what these guys are doing? by Jafar00 · 2004-08-11 20:01 · Score: 1

Beauregard Parish Public Library are using their own version of Redhat Enterprise Linux with great success.
You may like to contact them about their solution.
http://www.http://www.whiteboxlinux.org/

--
RebateFX.com - Spread rebates for Forex traders

Be sure to give PXES a look by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:02 · Score: 0

PXES is a great way to boot the thin clients. Be sure to check it out:
http://pxes.sf.net

I've got several old laptops that have been reborn as thin clients thanks to PXES.

No magic bullet. by nosfucious · 2004-08-11 20:02 · Score: 1

Thin client is no magic bullet, but it has been useful to me and my department. Unless there was a good reason, I wouldn't use it on a local LAN, but where speed of access was a factor (screen updates versus full file transfer via WAN/VPN).

Example: One country connects to specific line of business applications hosted application at our Data Center. That application, whilst customised, still yanks a bucket load of data each query. Keeping the application local to the LAN yeilds 10^2 or 10^3 better performance. Also, the server is locked down to the wazoo and it runs all the time barring patches and deployments.

We keep the server running, local IT keeps the clients running and programmers do thier best to break everything.

Example2: A different line of business application is available around Europe, but this time hosted on a web server. Data entry clerks have access to two web sites and ONLY the web browser 1, the web mail portal and 2, the line of business application. 4th generation hand me down machines that run only the bare minimum to get the job done. (Technically zero client here, not thin client).

My advice: Don't use Dell. IBMs are great for having working drivers and they update them regularly. XP has it useability flaws and licence issues, but is stable enough for daily use if you've the correct drivers, vetted the application software and disable the ability for users to install %FavouriteAppAndSpyware%. Remember to nail down NTFS even more than the default.

Learn aboult policies under XP. One more source of stress, but many, many useful stress reducers too. Can really tighten the desktop and (re)deploy applications just by policy.

If you really want to save $$$'s:
- BSD/Linux with Samba server +
- web-apps based on LAMP,
- Star/Open Office on client,
- Keep the point and drool interface for the client PC's (XP), if that's what your users want.

The big licensing $$$ come from the server licence and CAL's and Office. And if you use Terminal Services, you now need a Terminal Services CAL for each device under 2003 ALSO.

--
Q:I was listening to a CD in Grip and it sounded horrible! What's up? A:Perhaps you are listening to country music

morphix derivative - by Seraphim_72 · 2004-08-11 20:02 · Score: 2, Interesting

There is a morphix derivative that is a pure kiosk style Firefox. Currently I am trying to remaster it a bit, not doing so well, but that is me and how little time I have put into it, and thae fact that I want it locked down hard. Oh - here look toward the bottom for the firefox iso.

Sera

--
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.

LTSP by miffo.swe · 2004-08-11 20:04 · Score: 1

LTSP is a very nice thin client solution that really works well. There are a couple of turn key isos out there that installs just like any dist, no messing around. Try k12ltsp.org or skolelinux.

There are also a couple of apps you put into your XP machine to lock it down wich works very well.

Third you could get yourself a Tandberg Safaty card wich restores the harddrive completely on reboot. No matter how much someone messes the computer up it will be just as before after reboot.

I did k12ltsp and have had zero problems over a year now.

--
HTTP/1.1 400

some options by MoreDruid · 2004-08-11 20:05 · Score: 1

A lot of people here go full linux, but you were asking for a thin client solution so I'm posting some options here:
IBM's thin clients
nomachine (they give a nice .edu & .org discount)
and Athena (which offers both Windows & linux flavors)

Some of these boxes also have pcmcia support, if you want to go wireless (some also have this integrated). As a backend solution, you have several options like Windows Terminal Server, Citrix, Linux and Sun.

--
The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.

LTSP, with support! by Delusional · 2004-08-11 20:06 · Score: 2, Informative

Check out disklessworkstations.com. It's run by the guy(s) who developed LTSP; they have several years of experience now setting up and maintaining thin-client setups.

There is no justification for ever installing full-blown PCs in this kind of environment. (No, I don't work for or with these guys, I just have way more experience than I ever wanted administering extensive networks of independent PCs in environments where the cumulative equivalent of VT's Big Mac was brought to bear on tasks that cumulatively required roughly a dual P4). Web browsing, word processing and the like require almost no processing power. Unless your users are creating/editing/transcoding audio or video, compiling elaborate programs, or doing deep data searches on local data, the computing power is wasted.

Not to mention the time wasted on cleaning up after clueless users (in a properly configured thin client environment users are only users, not manipulators, of the core operating environment), keeping up with the latest patches, x number of software/OS "up"grades instead of one (and the requisite hardware upgrades - two, three years down the road, instead of replacing a library full of obsolete machines, you replace one, and keep your clients),... I could go on, but /. comments aren't supposed to be books, so I'll stop.

Re:LTSP, with support! by LDoggg_ · 2004-08-12 01:15 · Score: 1

I agree with you 100%
Also Note that K12LTSP is an easy way to get started with this. It is basically Fedora Core 2 ready to install with all the cool LTSP stuff included.
Just install the distro on a server with 2 Network cards, buy some bootable nics from disklessworstations.com, slap those in the clients, and away you go.
The mailing list and irc channel are also full of helpful people.
I've been using this setup in a school for a couple of years now, and it saved us so much money we were able to replace our CRT monitors with flat panels.

--

"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle

High Level overview by rf0 · 2004-08-11 20:08 · Score: 1

Get yourself a PC which has a CD-Rom + Network access and just boot something like knoppix with a browser so if it gets "hacked" you just reboot to the default setting

Rus

--
Cheap UK and US VPS

I don't know about library usage but.... by snero3 · 2004-08-11 20:08 · Score: 1

I do work for a road service company and we put terminals in garages across the country. I would say the average mechanic is a lot hard on hardware than the average library user.

We use Maxterm Which runs Linux which then launches a critrix client to connect to our critrix farm. This will do everything you asked of it plus is very robust. The terminals don't have HD (just flash memory) so no hacks are permanent. I hope this helps

--
It said "windows 98 or better" so I installed Linux

15", 17" versions too by daBass · 2004-08-11 20:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

Don't forget Sun has Sun Ray clients with either a 15" LCD or 17" CRT in an all in one design too at $1049 and $659(!) respectively. That's a big savings on 40 of these and for a library more than adequate

The smart card is not a requirement either. You can simply log in (as guest if you like), you just don't get your hot desking. This brings the possibilty of giving regular users a real account with some space for documents as well and it keeps their settings. Guest logins are trivial to revert to "standard state" every time they are logged off too.

You don't get IE but that only disables a small amount of websites that due to their stupid reliance on IE don't deserve your custom anyway.

Re:15", 17" versions too by Bert64 · 2004-08-11 21:37 · Score: 1

Actually, you can use IE5 on solaris, it just doesn't support activex.. Still, theres no reason why you would want to use it over mozilla..
Personally i use it about once every 6 months for some anal websites i'm forced to use at work, it's safer than the windows version due to it's obscurity.

--
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Re:15", 17" versions too by suwain_2 · 2004-08-12 03:36 · Score: 1

There are several plugins for Mozilla (and Firefox) that forge your UserAgent string.

I was running Internet Explorer 8 for a while... Fooled most of the sites that "rely" on IE, but really work just as well in Mozilla.

--
________________________________________________
suwain_2 :: quality slashdot p
Re:15", 17" versions too by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:52 · Score: 0

You don't have to login as guest. There is a Controlled Access Mode since 1.3 which gives you a volatile session with only predefined applications to run...
Re:15", 17" versions too by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:43 · Score: 0

You can set the user agent on mozilla, konqueror, Opera, and any of the mozilla based browsers to IE. Now you can access IE sites with out the annoying "you must have IE to use this site" messages. I did this for my bank site, which worked fine after I made the change to the user agent setting.
Re:15", 17" versions too by daBass · 2004-08-12 19:49 · Score: 1

I have yet to come acros a site that doesn't allow me access based on User-Agent.

The main problem seems to be VB script, ActiveX and IE specific JS. (even when a standard one is available. Sigh...)

Pilotlinux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:12 · Score: 1, Informative

Hi,
Take a look at Pilotlinux: http://www.pilotlinux.nl/pilotlinux/.
PilotLinux is a thin client LiveCD. It's Knoppix/Morphix based and supports RDP, VNC and X. Citrix support is being added.

Not all expenses are software by ikeleib · 2004-08-11 20:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

Don't forget to pick hardware that won't require lots of care. My suggestion is to get one of those VIA fanless jobbers and net boot it. That way, there's no fans do die, no hard drive to die, and no noise to disturbe library patrons.

Sun Ray Server Software 3.0 Beta for Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:17 · Score: 1, Interesting

Note that the Sun Ray Server Software 3.0 Beta is also supported on Linux.

ltsp by zozzi · 2004-08-11 20:19 · Score: 1

Use ltsp. It's the only thing you'll need. First decide if you want a Windows solution or a Linux one. If you want to go to Linux, configure the thin clients to boot to X (trivial!). Otherwise configure it to run rdesktop in full screen mode to connect to a Windows Terminal Server (also very easy to do). Runs perfectly well here.

--
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Thinstation by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:21 · Score: 0

May I also suggest thinstation.sf.net. With pre-built kernel images and all you need are old PCs with ether, as little as 16MB ram, a working video card, display, keyboard and mouse.

Works with Linux running X with your choice of WM or Windows 2k/2k3 Terminal Server.

Blue Screens by droyad · 2004-08-11 20:23 · Score: 1

We have a moderatly large customer base mostly running XP and 2k, and we get hardly any blue screens/lockups. When we do it is mostly shoddy hardware that we did not supply (eg Dell).

Having said that, Thin clients are great, as the Terminal server can be locked down so that _nothing_ can be changed from login to login, yet the users can still do their wordprocessing and internetting.

Mind you, getting a good terminal server will set you back a lot (At min, SERVER motherboard, 2 CPU, 1-2GB RAM, SCSI Drives). Anything less and you will have performance issues. We use the above type setup for 30-70 users.

You can get the same effect using group policies (on a domain) and ghost. You can restrict the users in almost anything they do, and you have ghost to reload the systems when someone does manage to stuff it up.

Re:Blue Screens by drsmithy · 2004-08-12 13:01 · Score: 1

Mind you, getting a good terminal server will set you back a lot (At min, SERVER motherboard, 2 CPU, 1-2GB RAM, SCSI Drives). Anything less and you will have performance issues. We use the above type setup for 30-70 users.
Bollocks. We've got a Dell 650 with a 2.6Ghz P4 (no HT), 120 GB IDE RAID1 and 2GB of RAM. It *easily* handles the 20 - 25 users (mostly running Word, Outlook, IE and a Progress DB frontend) on it right now.

mod parent up by Arrowmaster · 2004-08-11 20:26 · Score: 1

for an AC, its a post that actually deserves to be moded up....

Bascom by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:27 · Score: 0

You should look into Bascom, they have education solutions that would be great for you.

Shh! Quiet! by v1z · 2004-08-11 20:29 · Score: 1

As it seems every other post neglegts to mention this: Sun thinclients are absolutely quiet. No harddrive, no fan.

I think it is almost as much of a selling point as price and managability.

I've experienced some issues with sessions hanging on the server, but since you probably won't _need_ 24/7 uptime (you won't be open 24/7, will you ?), a simple restart of the apropriate daemons should be enough to take care of that.

I would check out the price of linux/*bsd-based thin-clients, running on a VIA-board (no fan, integrated video/sound), network booting via pxe, and a server for shared disk storage, printing etc.

You'll have to decide wether you want people to log in (for billing internet use, logging activity) -- and set up login accordingly.

I think you could get hardware costs down, and maybe spend a little more on adminstration (spend a month reading up on unix sysadm, and securing your setup) -- or you could get more expensive networking hardware for improved user experience (gigabit instead of 100Mbs ?).

Re:Shh! Quiet! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:20 · Score: 0

You'll have to decide wether you want people to log in (for billing internet use, logging activity) -- and set up login accordingly.

I would not do this if we are talking about a public library in the United States. (I know, the article specifies logging in as 'guest', which would be ok; I am referring to personally identifiable userids.) Think: USA PATRIOT act. You would be required to turn over your access logs to law enforcement with only a search warrant.
I think you could get hardware costs down, and maybe spend a little more on adminstration (spend a month reading up on unix sysadm, and securing your setup) -- or you could get more expensive networking hardware for improved user experience (gigabit instead of 100Mbs ?).

I wouldn't bother with gigabit, unless the price is around the same as regular Ethernet. My cable modem here at home can hit 1.5 Mbps, and that's plenty fast enough. Where you don't want to skimp on network hardware is on the switches.

LinuxMagic by Clod9 · 2004-08-11 20:35 · Score: 1

In addition to LTSP and Lumix, discussed above, LinuxMagic makes Linux thin client products. I have never used them but a good friend who is a sysadmin tells me they are a solid product. If you're looking for something a little more turnkey that you can buy off the shelf, this might be the way to go.

Your ideal environment would be something that you can manage centrally, that will allow you to add clients effortlessly and at minimal incremental cost, and let some or all of your client machines work even when the boot server is nonfunctional. It's an interesting challenge, and you should find a number of solutions that will let you support many user activities without spending all your time managing the systems.

Maytbe this helps? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:35 · Score: 0

Those were pretty nice:
www.thincan.com

the pub library in my city uses windows terminals by richie123 · 2004-08-11 20:40 · Score: 1

In Windsor Ontario, where I live, the city libraries all use a thin client system of windows 2000 terminal services. I used to work there serveral years ago, but haven't been in contact for some time. the system does seem to work well tho'.

Terminal services are well suited to this type of setup since the uses don't have a heavy need for multimedia at the computer stations, and replacing broken or, outdated machines is a simple matter or swapping hardware.

You could consider using X or VNC with unix on these type of machines also, since it would further reduce licensing costs, an Unix/Linux has all the software needed for the library users.

(The Windsor Public Library uses a web based search catalog, and simple database search for out of town, and archived material)

My suggestion. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:41 · Score: 1, Informative

This is how I would do it.

HARDWARE
--------

Server: Some modern athlonbased computer, maybe dual if it is not too expensive. Lots of ram! (like 2 GB or more). This should not need to cost more than 1300-1500 USD (or less if you do not need dual CPUs, etc).

Clients: Some kind of mATX motherboard (that supports network boot) with integrated sound, networkcard and graphics. Buy the cheapest duron-CPU money can buy :) Mount the mATX card with CPU, small amount of RAM (like 128) in a small fanless mATX case. Each client should not cost more than 200-300 USD including keyboard+mouse. No harddrive, cdrom or floppy!

Monitors: The most costeffective is probably cheap AOC 17" monitors for around 100 USD. (or less)

Network: Go for dlink or netgear, cisco would be overkill in this type of setup. Cost: around 100 USD (or less).

Total cost of hardware: 1400+100 = 1500 USD for server and network, Then an additional 350 USD for each client. So a 6 client setup would cost somewhere in the region of: 3600 USD.

SOFTWARE
--------

Server: Standard debian installation. I would use GDM as login manager and KDE as window manager. With the program "gdmchooser" I would configure gdm to accept connections from other hosts (it is located under the last tab i believe). And i would configure KDE into kiosk mode (however, you can use whatever windowmanager you like). For booting the clients i would set up a DHCP server and BOOTP server, with a small vanilla debian installation (I believe there is a debian package containing a small vanilla debian system).

Clients: Using DHCP + BOOTP the clients load a small linux installation from the server, which only includes what is necessary (like X server, drivers for LAN interface, correct XF86-config file, etc). Add a startupscript that does: X --query SERVER-IP, and voila you now have the gdm login screen from the server when you boot your clients! :)

(you can configure gdm to autologin a special library-user if the library-visitor is not supposed to have an own account).

KISS - clones & an image by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 20:41 · Score: 0

what more do you need?

It rules out anything by guet · 2004-08-11 20:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

And why would IE for Windows be necessary (or even desirable)?

If a standards compliant browser (Firefox, Opera, Safari, IE for mac, IE for Windows (almost)) can't browse your web pages, you have a problem with the web pages, not with the browser.

Perhaps it's time to step back and question those assumptions, after all, they're not even at the building/buying stage. Choosing IE for Windows is basically choosing windows, which as you point out, makes the question almost a non-question - they may as well go back to continual problems trying to keep the systems up, up to date and hardened, which is precisely what the poster wanted to avoid.

Separate into two sets of machines by Nemosoft+Unv. · 2004-08-11 20:51 · Score: 1

Judging by your post, it looks like you really are offering two different kinds of services: accessing the library's catalog and Internet, and provide basic Office tools like Word and Excel. Considering your requirements of using floppies and Internet access, I think you're heading for a administrators' nightmare.

I therefor suggest you use two separate sets of machines: one set of Linux or Mac boxes to do the catalog searching and Internet browsing, just barebones machines with no floppies and very minimal software installed. I would recommend installing (buying) Opera and perhaps Mozilla; the former can render almost anything that IE can, so the user experience is just as good.

For the Office tools, use a seperate cluster of machines, with no Internet access, no floppies, and no CDROM. Period. If people want to edit something, they can bring you the floppy or CD, tell you which PC they are working on and you put the data on a share, specific for that PC. Then they can work on it, and afterwards you transfer their data back to floppy or CD (assuming it's a rewritable). This way, you can prevent 90% of all the messing people do with PCs, and prevent worms and other stuff. Use a physically separate network for these PCs too. If people complain they need Internet, point them to the Internet cluster; they should know how to use pencil and paper in order to write something down. BTW, I think you'll find you need CDROMs pretty soon.

You may think supporting two different clusters of machines may be more work, but considering that eventually you will have to deal with less computers that have a 'dangerous' environment, you will save time.

If you don't want to handle the floppies and CDs for people, then I think you have no option but to enable floppy and CD drives. However, be prepared for the system to fall apart a lot more often. Also, having to go to the desk and hand over a floppy/CD is a big mental barrier for people who want to mess with your systems (takes them out of anonimity), and having no Internet access on that cluster will deter all the l33t script kiddies.

Good luck.

--
"Fix it? It has been disintegrated, by definition it cannot be fixed!" - Gru in Despicable Me.

Re:Separate into two sets of machines by TheWormThatFlies · 2004-08-11 21:58 · Score: 1

This is a nice idea, except that it assumes that internet and office tool usage are separate tasks which never need to interact, except for rare cases where someone needs to look up a brief fact while writing something.
Do you seriously expect someone who is writing an article and researching it on the web to hop back and forth between different computers with pen and paper? That's like the carrier pigeon transfer protocol.
And what about someone who wants to retrieve article text and illustrations from his email account and put them together in a word processor?
While this security measure would be very effective at preventing abuse of the system, it would be equally effective at preventing use of it.

I might take a bit of flak on this but... by JonTheNiceGuy · 2004-08-11 20:51 · Score: 1

We use Windows 2000 Advanced Servers and Windows 2000 clients, with a "locked down" policy for the desktops.

Recently I've been looking at using a modified version of Knoppix to load X Windows, then launch RDesktop. This will save on the client side (like a previous poster said - glue the CD Drive shut, or perhaps just take off the front plate and mount it further inside?) You get a cheapy PC and boot off that.

From experience, the higher specified Server you have, the better... maybe even consider having several and using some form of load balancing?

Perhaps you could use IP Tables to load balance (even tentitively like this range of IP Addresses goes to Server A, that range to Server B etc.)

From experience, if you tie down the PC to any great amount, your clients will complain like nothing you'll have ever experienced... but it can be done. We use cascaded terminal server sessions to keep local drives separate from actual network availability, and to prevent external, unapproved activex controls from running on our network. We use Internet Explorer in kiosk mode to keep access to resources restricted to specific machines, and we use group policies to stop the local machines from being able to access 99% of all apps!

I didn't implement most of this (just support it) but it can be done, it can be done well, and it can look good as well. Good Luck!

If you plan to use Linux, I'd strongly advise looking at the K12LTSP project. I've used this in personal projects before, and it gives you a good implementation of the LTSP project on a Fedora Core 1 system.

Captured by Naraku by Graymalkin · 2004-08-11 20:54 · Score: 1

For your purposes I don't think thin clients are the proper solution to your problem. On paper they look attractive but you lose a lot of flexibility with them. With thin clients the amount of utility you've got is directly related to the amount of power you've got on your server. When you add more clients you only stress the server's resources more. While web browsing might now be too intensive you're proposing having productivity apps running on the network.

The biggest feature of the thin clients is also a their biggest weakness down the road. The thin clients can't ever be removed from the network and their servers that make them useful. If you ever want to move them to a new branch you're either going to need a fat pipe between the multiple branches or added servers at an added cost. Fat clients can be moved all sorts of places and don't necessarily need high-speed network connections.

--
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.

Thin Clients in the Library by David_Wayne · 2004-08-11 20:54 · Score: 1

In my local library (Wyoming, MI) thin clients are all the rage. I think they are terminal server clients, but they could be WinFrame too. I'm sure they aren't linux because they use IE. Wyoming is part of the Kent County Library System. I suggest that you contact them for their opinion.

linux terminals in local library by bigtreeman · 2004-08-11 20:58 · Score: 1

I live in Coffs Harbour, NSW, Oztralia and our local library has had linux terminals for years. They run a very bare X shell and Netscape 4.7. They are used to access the search system which also seems to access a state-wide library search. Limited functionality? What can't you do with a web browser? no access to a shell and from memory pretty tightly secured (hate to say, its a while since I've been in the library)

--
Go well

Works nicely now. by ciryon · 2004-08-11 21:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

I have some experience of setting up Netbootet Macs. Prior to 10.3 it was hell, but now it works nicely. If you can afford it, buy some iMac TFT's and remove the harddrives.

With NetBoot you can add software to all machines on the fly and the new Apple Remote Desktop 2 has loads of features, including VNC support so you can monitor the machines from your PDA while you relax on the beach. :)

It's also easy to set the machines in kiosk mode where they, say, only can access a web browser - or whatever you want your visitors to use.

Re:Works nicely now. by dstillz · 2004-08-11 21:34 · Score: 1

If you can afford it, buy some iMac TFT's and remove the harddrives.

Too bad you can't get new iMac TFTs anymore, and nobody knows what the G5-powered ones that come out next month are going to cost. :-(

Skolelinux - Debian Edu. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:09 · Score: 0

Skolelinux is great for this. Skolelinux is a distro based on Debian. It uses the new Debian-Installer and it's realy easy to install.
It's easy to get thin clients working with Skolelinux. It's preconfigured with LTSP.
Skolelinux is the most active part of official Debian Edu subproject of Debian.

http://www.skolelinux.org/
http://www.skolelinux.org/portal/product/overview/ document_view
http://www.skolelinux.org/portal/product/thinClien ts/document_view

Skolelinux gives great economical savings. Teleplan, an independent agency, has estimated (report available in Norwegian only) savings up to 60% by using Skolelinux with thin clients, compared to a traditional Windows solution. These savings are mainly due to eased maintenance, and not because Skolelinux has zero cost

By enabling reuse of old equipment, Skolelinux helps save the environment. Instead of trashing old hardware, it can be used as thin clients.

Skolelinux is part of Debian, and as such, is supported by a large and vibrant community. This means lots of momentum, development, and a guarantee that Skolelinux will be around in years to come.

Skolelinux is very stable and reliable. The students will experience predictability and a system that works. Additionally, Skolelinux is less vulnerable to worms and viruses.

Skolelinux makes the users independent of supplier, and can decide themselves when to upgrade both hardware and software.

Skolelinux has user-friendly licences that give you rights - not responsibilities!

State Library of Victoria by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:11 · Score: 0

the state library of victoria here in .au has sun thin clients with staroffice etc. seems to work pretty well.

Thin Client, Please! by RAMMS+EIN · 2004-08-11 21:14 · Score: 1

From personal experience, thin clients are excellent for public libraries. The libraries in my city had what looked like a telnet interface, with a central server and several thin clients scattered around. It was intuitive and worked perfectly.

Now they have switched to Windows computers, using a web interface. On good days, it's slow. On bad days, it's hard to find a computer that works, or the library may not be able to lend books, because the server is down.

Libraries are not the only example. I've been at banks where they couldn't help me because the system was down. It doesn't give one much trust.

My advice is, Keep It Simple, Stupid! I'd much rather have few but working features than many but broken ones.

--
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.

Sun Rays Run on Linux by Zentac · 2004-08-11 21:18 · Score: 1

In the near future Sun Rays will even run on Linux, according to Sun http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/04/08/02/2259202.s html?tid=102&tid=137&tid=163 Witch should bring down the costs of running a Sun Ray setup I would guess...

Terminal Services by seanyboy · 2004-08-11 21:20 · Score: 1

Microsoft Terminal Services is all you need. Get a bog standard, mid range intel box, fill it with Ram (2GB min), and install MS 2000 Server. Install Terminal services, add Browser and Office apps. (for email, use webmail) For your office Apps, I'd look for something streamlined, MS-Office compatible and cheap. Microsoft Works is a possibility, or something like AbiWord. There is scope to use Unix/Linux for this, but most people who'll be using the system will be Microsoft Users, and you won't want to be answering lots of tech-support questions. Tarentella offer a Terminal Services Linux/WINE variant which is capable of running windows applications, and this too may be worth looking at. In the past, this has been expensive compared to MS Server, but they're aware of this, and have made noises that they're re-evaluating the licencing.

--
Training monkeys for world domination since 1439

Re:requirements are contradictory and a bit confus by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:27 · Score: 0

If you want security, use Firefox or some other browser. Anything but IE!!

IE at a minimum? Sounds like a great way to shoot the project in the foot from the start..

As for Office, you can tweak wine or buy crossover office and used Microsoft Office 2000 licenses for Linux. I'm currently setting up a server with wine and used Office 2000 (unopened package) at a volunteer org. myself, and it's working beautifully. I've been perfecting it for the last two months now before release, don't want users to have ANYTHING to complain on... :-> Of course, most of the time has been spent on holidays ;-)

Now with a PXES Thin Linux Client CD-ROM mentioned here, it sounds like setting up thin clients should be painless.. Imagine that, Word and Excel over the network for as many clients as we like! In Windows world, that would amount to alot of money to sink in a user-restricted Windows Terminal Server.

speaking from experience... by pellaeon · 2004-08-11 21:30 · Score: 1

we recently converted 75 of our ~100 workplaces to linux-based thin clients (we use linux almost exclusively, so linux-based was a must for us). I would never consider going back to pc's, although I cannot see doing without pc's altogether either.

The ones we chose are commercial thin clients, no homebrew anything. They're based on VIA's Eden platform and are totally silent (which I imagine is a plus in a library). And no moving parts mean almost nothing can go wrong with the hardware. Security is managed very well in our chosen thin client and management can be done from both Windows and Linux. Perhaps they're also less attractive for thieves, I'm not sure.

They can connect to any X Window server and can use RDP, ICA and Tarantella out of the box, which gives you freedom of choice with regards to the server side of the equation.

We chose Igel (http://www.igel.de), but we also looked at Thintune (http://www.thintune.com) and VXL (http://www.vxl.co.uk/).

As for floppy drives: none of these thin clients were equipped with a floppy drive out-of-the-box. Perhaps you could use usb floppy drives, but memory sticks are probably a better bet.

--
-- /bin/coffee missing. universe halted.

Thin clients by nysebamse · 2004-08-11 21:33 · Score: 1

The public library where I live (Bergen, Norway) has a system like that. I think it's developed by a Norwegian company.
Try contacting the library on this adress: mailto:fido@bergen.folkebibl.no for more information

RE: thin clients by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:23 · Score: 0

I worked at Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh McKeesport branch when I was in high school (five years ago) and the last year I was there, we started using a Sun thinclient solution. We were in sortof a bad area, and we had a lot of trouble with people messing up our Windows NT 5 machines we were using before. The Sun clients dealt with this very well, as there really wasn't much to mess up. The solaris-like interface was surprisingly windows-like, so anyone walking into the library could pretty much figure it out. I was sort of the person resonsible for fixing problems, even though we had a tech service that came in when we had any serious problems or upgrades, and I can say I rarely if ever had to do anything to one of the thinclients. The only problem you might have is that you won't find support for MS Office applications. When we were doing it, the machines were pretty much used for internet and that was about it. I'm sure Sun has some more comprehensive solutions now though.

You ignored Linux? by 0x0d0a · 2004-08-11 21:34 · Score: 1

Again, it seems to me that you spent around $30k more than you needed to spend by going Sun instead of x86 Linux. You can do thin clients just as well with stock x86 hardware hosting Linux, and you won't be paying an arm and a leg for the server.

I'm also at a loss as to why you'd spend $1.1k/monitor on brand-name Sun monitors.

Are you a Sun employee, Sun vendor, or have you consulted extensively with Sun products in the past?

--
May we never see th

Sun Rays - silent but deadly by ChrisRijk · 2004-08-11 21:40 · Score: 2, Informative

Sun Rays are dead silent (no moving parts), very low power (20W) which also saves you on air-con, last forever, require no maintenance on the client side, are very secure (air traffic control for Air Force One is run off a network of Sun Rays) and easy to setup.

Version 3.0 of the server software also runs on Linux. V3 is also bandwidth efficient enough that you can deploy over broadband or a group over 10Mb Ethernet.

As for how much they cost, on modern hardware the main thing to bear in mind is the amount of main memory you have. Sun have a sizing guide to help. For lightweight usage, eg a library, they suggest you can run 40 clients off a server with 4GB of main memory.

So 40x Sun Ray 1g = $359 * 40 = $14.4K (re-use monitors from your existing systems). On server side, a Sun Fire v20z with 2x Opteron 250s and 4GB of memory is $7k, though you could get a model with slower CPUs and pay for more memory. As a library, you should be able to get an educational discount too.

Success Story by Genoxide · 2004-08-11 21:40 · Score: 1

I work for a danish computer company and we specialize in thin client solutions. We work with thin clients from Neoware and Vxl, and one of our clients is the library of a danish university. They used to have normal workstations before they got citrix and the thin client solution. They have 160 Thin clients now, and they are most happy with this solution. I know you say that money is not an issue, but you will also save a BUNCH of time in pure maintenance. Remember that thin clients have no harddrives, or moving pars = Noiseless operation, less power consumption, less heat, and the best part: you never have to reinstall a client! And if one breaks down, you replace it, and spend less than 5 mins configuring it! [/br] Our beforementioned client have saved 70% of their time in pure maintenance of the entire installation. They are running Linux based Neoware clients. When you say that they are linux based it usually scares most people, but you never acutally have to deal with the linux part. You are given a nice GUI to work with, and it's nice, simple and intuitive to use. [br] As for floppy drives, there have been some issues with the recent neoware releases and floppy drives that are not working, but with the new Neolinux 3.0 all that should be taken care of. The great thing about thin clients, and this is where neoware stands out from the crowd, is the management! Neowares remote manager is great to work with, and makes administration of the clients simple and easy. much more so than other brands we've tried, and when you use thin clients, administration is 2/3ds of the whole idea. [br] What you can do is, try one for free, and make sure to download the remote manager, and try it out! Do the same with other client, and make sure you try their management software!! Most people just test the client, and the best advice I can give is to make sure you thoroughly test the management!! I hope you find a solution that works for you :)

Re:Success Story by Genoxide · 2004-08-11 21:54 · Score: 1

Sorry for the bad html I was distractec by the light from venus being reflected in some swamp gas ;) Or sumthin'... :)

Just My opinion by EightBits · 2004-08-11 21:43 · Score: 2, Informative

I have read a lot of different definitions of what 'thin clients' are in this thread. Actually, they are all right and wrong. 'Thin client' has quite a few definitions and the definition that applies to you depends on your appliction. For this application, I think we can assume that 'thin client' means a computer without a natively installed OS. In reality, what you want is a standard run of the mill PC for each terminal. There is no need to get exotic towards either end of the spectrum.

For arguments sake, lets assume you want 5 terminals throughout your library. If money were no object, I would order 5 standard PCs from your favorite computer manufacturer (this could be a big dog like Dell or HP or a local computer store.) The only things you want to pay special attention to are warranties. Get the best warranty you can get your hands on. Not to be an advertisement for Dell, but they do have a nice 4year/4hour on site warranty. Once you call in a hardware problem, within 4 hours there will be a tech there to work on it and they'll do this for 4 years. That's hard to beat. One nice thing about buying a standard PC instead of one designed to be the minimum thin client configuration is that if you change your mind later, you can always use a non-thin client solution. I would also consider buying an extra PC. Depending on how busy your terminals will be, you may not get enough time on one of them to update your deploy image. You will need to do things like perform virus scan updates and apply security patches and bug fixes. If taking over a terminal every once in a while is no bigge, don't worry about the extra PC.

Once you have your 5 terminals you should set them up with the standard OS and software you intend to support. I see a lot of Linux suggestions here and Linux could very easily pull it off. But, for a public library, Windows will easily work as well. It is really up to you and which OS you want to support. Whatever you do, make sure you have Mozilla, an office suite, and a virus scanner. If you run Linux, this should be Open Office and if you run Windows, it should be open office AND Microsoft Office. Once you have decided that, I think the idea of bootstrapping over the network is a good idea, but there are other options. Wether you choose Linux or Windows XP, both are capable of firewalling and you should definitely use that feature on the clients and it probably wouldn't hurt to have a firewall protecting your entire building too. But that's just my paranoia kicking in.

First, the drawbacks of net bootstrapping. If you do this, you will either be loading an entire OS and it's apps onto the client hard drive which would take a long time and every reboot of the machine would have that minimum as a downtime. Or, you could just load the base OS onto the machine and have all the apps installed on a server via a mapped drive. This would require less downtime at boot, but your network and server become single points of failure for your clients and you would have long application load times. I would recommend a daily reboot. If you do this when the library opens, then the downtime is not a problem. I would snag the whole OS over the network. This way, regardless of who walks in and out of your library, at least once a day you have cleaned up their messes and you will only have to maintain a single deploy image for all of your terminals. Also, if a computer has trouble and you are too busy to spend time troubleshooting or if you're out and a non-techy person is there, all that is needed is a reboot to take care of the problem.

There are a couple of things to keep in mind. I assume your computer will be capable of searching some sort of database to let patrons search for books and what not. If this is so, you might also want to consider having the terminals have their own databases that snag a copy of the database data from the server at boot time. Every 15 minutes or 30 minutes or so, the clients can request updates. This way, you still only have to u

X11 and el cheapo x86 boxen! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:49 · Score: 0

If I were setting this up on a tight budget, for a reasonably small network (5-10 machines), this is what I'd do.

Start with a reasonably fast desktop machine (2+ghz CPU, 1+gb of ram, dual ethernet cards), and a virgin install of Debian stable. This machine will double as a NAT machine and XDMCP server. I'd use xdm and export IceWM sessions, but any window manager or desktop environment could be made to work. This would be an interesting area to experiment. Another interesting idea (easily implemented on Debian (and elsewhere!)) would be a configuration meta-package, but we'll not go into detail about that here.

On the client side, your options are nearly limitless. Damn near any machine with a monitor and input device can be made to work here. Remember that since we're exporting all our X11 applications from our mainframe, there doesn't need to be a whole helluva lot more than a kernel and X server on these machines. For a budget setup I'd get a few identical x86 machines, spend a few hours installing debian stable on one of them and getting things nice and usable, then create a fat-free live cd based on it's configuration.

Zip, zoom, bang, pr0n.

Why not use Recovery Cards by chi11er · 2004-08-11 21:52 · Score: 1

I've often had the problem of setting up public access terminals. I've tried all sorts to stop users blatting the box, installing spyware / trojans / activex controls and in almost every case the customer (I work for a consultancy) has wanted the boxes security relaxed so users can install the latest version of flash or any other activeX component (Read: pron dialler) We've looked at Citrix and TSE use in these scenarios but the main problem is if one user breaks the box the box is dead. The costs are also huge compared to linux options. However the final solution we came to was to use Recovery Cards. They're cheap pci devices which restore the harddisk to its original state every reboot. They do it instantaneously too which means if a user kills a box it will be fixed by a reboot - unless they physically damaged the box! So we built a Client PC with W1nd0ws and installed Office and a few other apps for the company and then locked the boxes down using a combination of .exe deletion and a local policy file. Once we were happy with the build we imaged it to the other terminals, stuck the PCI cards into the systems and enabled the 'Protected Mode' Each of us was then frustrated when we tried to kill the box as a user would. As soon as we were happy we'd deleted every file in existance we rebooted and bingo... The Client that we did the installation for has had one box of 12 go down with a dead drive in the past 2 years. They've all had critical patches updated at some point but they're all alive and well below current SP levels. They've all had virus outbreaks, porn diallers, spyware, trojans etc etc installed but one reboot later and they're fixed. They are on a seperate VLAN to the rest of the network though which is why they don't care too much about patch levels. You and find one of these things here - sorry for the e-bay ad but it was easy to find the picture. I don't know the people selling it either so buyer beware.

EMac by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:58 · Score: 0

What about a EMac running OS 9.2.2. You can lock it down to use it so as to keep out the blackhats and still run Power Point, Office etc. Or Darwin (OSX) and Open Office. You won't be supporting a monopolist and you won't have to hear from blah blah Linuxheads.

some ideas... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 21:58 · Score: 0

- The X-protocol is very heavy on bandwidth usage, if you're using more than let's say five stations, you will need to use NX (or a GigaBit LAN)

- Remember that with thin clients, all your applications are running on the server. So you will need loads of RAM on the server. For 15 clients, 2 GB RAM is a must.

- Take a look at kiosktool to force limitations on what your users can do on the system

- Consider using squid as proxy server, to speed up access to often requested pages and to lower bandwidth usage of your internet connection.

Ensure Software Package will work on your solution by DeadlyEmbrace · 2004-08-11 22:05 · Score: 1

Whatever underlying OS and infrastructure you choose remember to ensure the software package(s) (e.g., dewy-decimal inventory system, etc.) you want to use will work in the environment. I was in Border's bookstore the other day and happened to use their search kiosk. Not sure what they're running but I was pleased with its performance.

Get a Linux User Group in your town/city to help! by otisg · 2004-08-11 22:15 · Score: 1

From what you described, it sounds like MS Windows is not the OS you should choose. Apples are also quite expensive. Another option is Linux, and I see others have already provided links to various terminal-only distributions and other library-oriented packages.

I wanted to suggest something else. The issue for you may be setting up those Linux terminals, as you may not have the required knowledge. However, it is likely that your town/city has a LUG (Linux User Group). My suggestion would be to find them, get in touch with them, find a few knowledgeable LUG members, and recruit them to help you set things up. The advantage of Linux over something like Windows is that it tends to stay stable, once you set it up proprely. That means that you may need some help with initial setup, but from there on, you'll be better of than on Windows.

Again, find out if there is a LUG where your library will be, and recruit 1-2 people to help you out. I think that will be more interesting and cheapter (time and money-wise) than if you went the Windows route.

--
Simpy

Some other issues in a public setting.... by jalbro · 2004-08-11 22:19 · Score: 1

Other people have addressed the thin client/ stripped down linux install questions. Frankly, I don't think it matters too much. Just secure it and make sure you can re-install it in 10 keystrokes or less. You can do that with redhat and kickstart.

Some other things to think about:

Printing is a god-awful pain in the butt. Alot of people will want to print out results. Many will try printing 145 page manuals. Some will try printing A4 by accident and stare at the printer dumbfounded as it asks for A4. (on an HP, just hit the big green button twice to print on letter instead.)

I'd suggest limiting the number of pages the printer can print at a time. You may want to search around for some good print management software. I don't know of any good open source quota software. I've had to craft my own cruft onto cups.

Also, consider putting the printer somewhere you can keep a good eye on it. On our expensive printers, we epoxy a padlock hasp to the outside so people don't go digging through on thier own.

Also, please THINK about ergonomics. I'd suggest:

Adjustable height monitors.

At least one adjustable height table for wheelchair users.

At least one "natural" style keyboard.

If you do get Suns, make sure to DEMAND the standard PC caps lock / ctrl key layout. Anything else will confuse people.

Order backup keyboards and mice when you do your original order.

Hope these tips helped!

-Jeff

SLASHDOT BROKEN by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:27 · Score: 0

OK... Who Broke Slashdot?

Re:SLASHDOT BROKEN by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:12 · Score: 0

Video games.

They get blamed for everything else, I figure, "why not this?"

for your reference by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:28 · Score: 0

Check out the Howard County Maryland public library system. They have free 802.11 internet access and are deploying linux on their public use PCs. I don't know too much more about it, but it sounds like someone there knows what they are doing. I expect they would give the benefit of their experience.

Nothing for you to see here. Please move along. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:35 · Score: 0

like the other post said, Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.

Re:Nothing for you to see here. Please move along. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:39 · Score: 0

except a gaping hole

Small library with Solaris and thin clients by Lillesvin · 2004-08-11 22:38 · Score: 1

I used to live in a city with a population of 40k people. The library there used to have full-blown PC's and they weren't able to maintain them properly. (E.g. one could edit system-files by opening IE, do a "view source" to open Notepad and then open whatever file you wanted to edit.) Admitted, they weren't the most competent sysadmins on the face of earth.

But comming home after a summer vacation and find that they'd gotten themselves a Solaris system with thin clients was a blessing.
All computers was working always! Which is the way it should be on a library.

I see how this can be problematic if you want to allow users to use floppies and such, but I think security should have the highest priority.

They asked me to test the system for holes and I couldn't find any! (No, I'm not really a good cr4x0r, but I've learned a few tricks along the way and considering their skills as sysadmins, I found it pretty impressive.)

--
"Live free or don't."

Linux Thin Client Nets for library in Australia by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:40 · Score: 0

Linux Thin Clients@Footscrary Public Library, courtesy of the Computerbank Victoria crew, who I used to run with...

screwed? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 22:49 · Score: 0

is it just me, or is slashdot not working. at all?

Re:screwed? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:04 · Score: 0

Slashdot appears to be not working worth a damn.
Index? Nothing to see here, wtf?

Via eden hardware diskless running knoppix by GuyFawkes · 2004-08-11 22:50 · Score: 1

No floppy required, physically hide the cd drive and seal it shut, nothing accesible or visible to joe public but keyboard / mouse / monitor.

Cons
they will take a minute or two to boot up in the morning, assuming you shut them down....

Pros
cheap enough you can load em out with a gig of ram and get good performance

users cannot fuck ANYTHING up

very little effort required to customise knoppix front end to your specific requirements / branding

being diskless it totally frees you from any legal responsobilities about stored user data etc

much cheapness

low energy consumption = low thermal rejection and very quiet

rock solid, bastards will run for months or years

if you get a problem it is easy / cheap / fast to fix, even a hardware death is easy.

HTH etc

--
http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal

The user experience by melonman · 2004-08-11 22:54 · Score: 1

We have been running a cybercafe in France using LTSP for three years now. At one point we ran Windows 2000 Terminal Server over LTSP to see how users reacted.

The main complaint about LTSP is that Mozilla/OO doesn't let people do everything they want to do. They can't download exes from a chat site and install it. Some Word files don't open (my impression is that OO is going backwards in this respect). Right now, a CSS problem with Yahoo makes reading mail using Mozilla almost impossible (although Firefox works), and so on.

The real problems are actually quite infrequent, but, because it's not Windows, the users blame any problems due to the site they are using or their own unrealistic expectations on our system. I'm currently travelling, and tried a cybercafe in a London train station yesterday, and was amused to find that our system runs Flash better then theirs, for example, but most of our clients would never believe this.

Another issue is file access. We don't allow local floppy acces, so everything has to go via the server. USB keys are another source of frustration. Of course whether you would want people putting media into your Windows machines is another question entirely, but the users don't tend to see it tha way.

Finally, the system occasionally grinds to a halt because one user is running a badly behaved Java applet or something - Yahoo billiards is a typical example. We now have a biprocessor server, which helps, and if I'm in I renice the offending process, but it's still not ideal. Local apps would help, although it increases the spec of your terminals somewhat.

In the light of all this, we thought that W2K would be a highly popular move. But the general reaction was that it was more like linux than linux, because we tied down all the security settings. People still couldn't install exes, still couldn't dump files all over the place, still moaned when we didn't have the right version of the particular piece of software they wanted, and so on. The one thing that was a clear improvement was Word over OO, but on balance we decided to stick with Linux.

--
Virtually serving coffee

luser? by tpwch · 2004-08-11 22:57 · Score: 1

As librarians go, I'm pretty tech-savvy, but as Slashdotters go, I'm pretty much a luser.

Considering that most slashdotters are 12-year-old boys without a life, I think you're doing ok in that area too.

--
Posted by a Debian GNU/Linux user

multi-head machines from HP running Windows by ethanms · 2004-08-11 23:10 · Score: 1

A few weeks ago I looked at HP's website where they we offering a single XP box that had 4 keyboards/mice and monitors attached... it's purpose was to bring lower-cost IT to developing areas, etc, etc...

But it sounds like it might work well in your situation... it's running multiple machines from a single box, which means that you had fewer total machines to worry about.

and since the vast majority of users at a library will be looking up books via WWW gateway, browsing the web, or typing a report in Word, you don't have to worry about the speed.

I think you were asking a question that you expected a Windows answer to, but unfortunately you're asking slashdot, so you're going to get a bunch of cobbled together linux based solutions from most of these people.

Re:multi-head machines from HP running Windows by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:08 · Score: 0

If you are referring to HP's newly announced 441, then it runs Mandrake Linux, and not XP.

Some Suggestions by petrus4 · 2004-08-11 23:16 · Score: 1

Server software:- OpenBSD if you can handle it, (link with some info on how to install it here) hardened Gentoo if you can't. I'll probably get flamed for suggesting what seems like massive overkill there, but you mentioned wanting to keep the vermin out, and either of those two will definitely do it.

Client side, I'd probably go either Slackware or Gentoo again myself. Run X with either straight twm or maybe something like fluxbox if you really want, and set a dedicated account ("mozilla" or "guest") using Mozilla/Firefox as the actual login program/shell equivalent. Make sure that account also doesn't have anything other than read access outside that directory as well.
That may sound strange, but I figure the less you give people access to, the less resources you're giving them which they can then use to make mischief.

If you absolutely must, put Open Office on for them to do various other things, but doing that will blow the above plan out of the water almost completely. Personally I'd make it myself so that the only thing they have access to is a web browser. If they want to look up a book, do an HTML interface for the library DB, and they can do any other external surfing they want with that as well.

In terms of the surfing, have a deny-by-default firewall on the server...that way the only sites they can go to are those you specifically include. You won't have to worry about anyone using the system to download porn or other such nasty things, and it's a lot more robust at the firewall level than using some lame thing like Net Nanny that does hit-or-miss keyword screening. Also rather than locking the floppy drives on the clients, I'd actually disconnect the thing and pull it out. You most likely won't need it for anything yourself, and if you have it in there, any lock you've got on it will be pickable, which then opens up another avenue for trojans etc to be uploaded.

If you didn't care about security, you could probably get away with running the network with XP clients and a Linux server, but you mentioned wanting to keep deviants out, and that simply is not possible with anything from Microsloth, IMHO. I remember a few years ago on an NT box in a local library, Explorer was supposedly roped off, but Netscape had the option to change the default HTML source viewer from Notepad to something else, so on a whim I changed it to Explorer, went to view source, and lo and behold it worked, giving me complete access to the system. NT/XP's security quite simply isn't. ;-)

Money not important? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:16 · Score: 0

If money is truly not important, send a request for proposal to a dozen vendors : IBM, Red Hat, SUSE, Sun, etc.

Then be wined and dined while you choose.

IGEL + NX by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:17 · Score: 0

A good solution would be IGEL Linux based thin clients with NoMachine's NX software to deliver a full Linux desktop. I've deployed this solution for quite a few companies, and the savings over Citrix & Windows is just amazing checkout these links: http://www.igeltechnology.com/ and http://www.nomachine.com/ You can visit our website, and purchase NX from us, we're the only reseller in the N. America, and the only N. American reseller in IGEL's black tie program. http://www.cpc-i.com/

What's with the INDEX bug? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:18 · Score: 0

What's with the INDEX bug?

great perk for library thin clients: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:22 · Score: 0

John ashcroft will be able to shadow all the terminal services connections to see what books yoyu're browsing for!

Client licensing by Bazman · 2004-08-11 23:25 · Score: 1

You wont save much on Windows licensing with thin clients if you want to provide a Windows service on the clients.

You'll need a Windows Server OS on the server.

You'll need Client licenses for each client.

You'll need a license to run Terminal Services.

You'll probably need a license to run the Terminal Services License manager.

You'll need a license for the gun you use to shoot the person responsible for the MS licensing system.

It took us weeks of emails back and forth between my department and our central IT people to figure out if our campus licensing allowed us to run Win 2003 TS client sessions on X-terminals. The answer would change every day. The eventual answer was 'yes', but I think they only said that to get us off their back.

So really seriously consider Linux on the server, Thinstation on the clients, and then Firefox and OpenOffice for applications. The Thinstation people will be very happy to take your money for support, and so will RedHat.

Simplify the desktop and menus so users aren't confused because it doesn't look like their Windows box at home.

Baz

Take a look at HPs {Compaq's} thin clients by Graemee · 2004-08-11 23:25 · Score: 1

We've been evaluating a couple and are replacing some old VT terminals with them. They have no moving parts, no CD, no FD, no HD. 256MB of flash memory running imbedded XP on a Transmeta CPU. You'll need a server to supply any non-imbedded apps, but for web terminals you would not have an easier solution then this type of thin client.

BTW if imbedded XP is not a feature for you, at least the reboots are quicker.

Howard County Library, Maryland by msonic · 2004-08-11 23:26 · Score: 2, Informative

The articles:

http://os.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=04/05/03/1520 209
http://www.libraryplanet.com/2004/05/lumixis
http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA4060 08

are about a distro based on "Linux From Scratch" that was specificly created for public access terminal use in a library. It has been deployed and is loved by everyone, the public and library management included. I have not used it myself, I heard about it at a user's group meeting. You might want to contact the author and get a copy. ljsalazar(at)comcast.net The project website http://www.lumixtech.com/ seems to be down.

Thin Client = Beefy Servers by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:26 · Score: 0

You have a huge trad-off here, you need beefy servers to administer and operate large numbers of "thin" clients.

Slashdot weirdness by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:29 · Score: 0

Slightly OT, but have anyone else noticed that someone has removed articles from the main page? The headlines just say "Index", and when you click "Read More...", a message appears that says "Nothing for you to see here. Please move along."
.
Several news articles has been removed, among them the SCO article.

http://www.k12os.org/ by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:29 · Score: 0

Try

http://www.k12os.org/

be gentle with them /.

Will someone please build this based on Debian.

CRAPDOT by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:34 · Score: 0

TACO needs to get his fist out his arse and fix it quick!

I work at a museum by EvilTwinSkippy · 2004-08-11 23:35 · Score: 1

We have several Linux kiosks, and they work quite well as uber-locked down, single site stations.

Most of our Kiosks are Windows based though. Our tech shop has a lockdown procedure that combines a couple of commercial packages, a pile of registry hack, and VNC to remotely reboot the darn things if a program locks up.

What I've found is, that irrational as it sounds, people refuse to use something that doesn't look like windows. (Despite the fact that Windows doesn't even look like windows after a while.) Of course, they also get annoyed when the start button and the desktop don't work, they can't download Gator, and AIM is blocked.

Offering open net access is a black hole to throw labor hours into. Despite the complaints, the Linux boxes work for years at a time. The Windows boxes crash a lot, but they can work well too. And no matter what you go with, people will bitch about whatever you have set up.

--
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming

Re:I work at a museum by 4of12 · 2004-08-24 10:25 · Score: 1

Offering open net access is a black hole to throw labor hours into.

Despite the complaints, the Linux boxes work for years at a time.

The Windows boxes crash a lot, but they can work well too.

And no matter what you go with, people will bitch about whatever you have set up.

You can't fool me. I recognize those four sentences as a direct rip-off, coming straight off the stone tablets thrown down the mountain of ultimate tech support knowledge.

--
"Provided by the management for your protection."

Thin Client vs "thick" clients by dark_polka · 2004-08-11 23:37 · Score: 1

My experience within libraries as regards to public computer access is this:
People will go as far as possible. I worked in a library for 3 years which had a bunch of PC's up running W2k. For the first 2 years we didn't have a netcafe environment set up. Needless to say this was a disaster. There was even one system which was dedicated to browsing information on the city website, but since access wasn't strictly limited to the city website people would frequent hotmail.com and similar sites.
My advice would be this:
Keep 60-80% of the systems exclusively for internet access, this could include setting up encylopedias or other reference material but no text handeling. Here a thin client should do ( Im not going to suggest any particular setup others have done that quite nicely )
Then consider if you need to allow people to use word - excell or similar. Here you could use PC's / Macs with a netcafe enviroment set up.
Bottom line of my advice is this:
People go as far as your settings let them. This ESPECIALLY goes for computers ment for kids. I think all security systems should be tested in a classroom of 8th graders...
my 5 cents

Probably a little different... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:38 · Score: 0

My public library back home used monochrome, textmode OPAC terminals. They were great. They had the same kind of quick use ability as the card catalog (which most more graphical methods lack). Since I have gone away to college they switched to PCs running Windows...connecting with HyperTerm to their old OPAC.

The Winter Park, FL public library -- one of the best I have ever encountered -- uses textmode terminals as well, but connecting to a catalog on a unix system. They also allow telnet or dialup access of the catalog from the outside. The little library I described above couldn't do this because they were paying exorbitant license fees for each OPAC access port. That OPAC was on VMS as I recall... Anyway, the Winter Park library put all its public use "real computers" in a little room off the first floor, then scattered the textmode terminals throughout the library.

Frankly I like this system a lot better. It means you almost never have trouble looking something up in the catalog. Otherwise some kid is sitting at the computer looking up video game reviews. You can get monitors that can do this kind of work from peanuts: University surplus auctions usually have monitors going for about $9 which are far more powerful than you need for such terminals. Likewise boxes of keyboards, and all you need is a connector. I believe the Linux Terminal Server project has worked out the issues already: www.ltsp.org

References by Asprin · 2004-08-11 23:39 · Score: 1

The Twinsburg Public Library (http://www.twinsburg.lib.oh.us) in Twinsburg, Ohio was running Citrix Metaframe on thin clients for their library terminals as recently as three years ago and they probably still are. They're a part of the Greater Cleveland Public Library Network (Clevenet - www.clevenet.com), which also may or may not be running Citrix.

It might be worth a call to talk to someone who's doing it if you're interested in running Citrix or WinTS.

--
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie

Until the change... by a.deity · 2004-08-11 23:43 · Score: 1

My library was running a string of VT100 clients from an IBM AIX server. Fast, efficient, and never crashed.

Their terminals are now Windows boxes running a Java VM (on a web page, no less), and are slow as a dog.

--
Option-Shift-K.

Re:requirements are contradictory and a bit confus by richardljohnson · 2004-08-11 23:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

I am a Network Administrator for a medium size city Library. We currently use Dell's with XP and all the 'bell's and whistle'...including the essential Deep Freeze. I am looking at Terminal Services with either Linux or MS. Wyse Technologies (formally Netier) does offer thin clients and if I remember right they can offer terminal service through these. From my experience Linux IS morse secure but you will have a greater learning curve if not phobia from patrons..and staff alike! Good Luck! Richard-

crossover office by arkhan_jg · 2004-08-11 23:44 · Score: 1

I won't go into the the many different types of thin client setup you can do with linux, as many others already have;

But if you want to run microsoft office and/or internet explorer on your linux thin clients, I strongly recommend crossover office - it's virtually flawless at running both apps, along with a number of other windows programs. It's a commercial spin off of wine, and it makes installing and running windows software on the clients a lot easier.

--
Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.

Cyberpunk Libraries - or, providing access to info by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-11 23:44 · Score: 0

Hi!

Interesting themes. The answer is in 3 parts. I'm a past library abuser, present heavy user, and I've designed corporate "desks". I'd like to talk about my current usage first, my past abuse, and then my past design experience, in that order.

First, Bruce Sterling delivered an excellent speech before the library association entitled "Cyberpunk Librarians". Go read it.

I'm in Fountain Hills, AZ, and the library system is part of an associating out outlaying areas that either poorer areas and get lots of government money for libraries (mostly indian reserverations) and wealthier areas. It's a small town of only a few ten thousand, but there are 40 desktop machines running Windows XP. These machines have smartcard readers in their keyboards, and they're locked down. I don't know with what - I bring my own computer and Internet (GPRS) with me these days. I know they're locked down because I see the kids playing Flash and Java games on them. RuneScape is very popular. The kids are allowed to play games but only for an hour at a time - then they're off to the end of the line. This blows my mind that they permit undirected use, and after the initial "damn kids" reaction, I realized that they've developed a computer-lab culture right there in library - kids were learning from other kids, and knowledge was trickling down. One would find a neat game and show the others. Games are the obvious and most interesting thing, but they're searching the net for their reports, too, and generally learning about things and how to do things from all kinds of sites. It's naive to think that kids only learn from doing serious things - any anthropoligist will tell you that play in any animal is survival mechanism, where life-skills are practised in a non-hostile environment. The kids are litteraly learning to learn, finding their away around information that will help them navigate, and building confidence relating the vast amount of knowledge out there. This takes years and cannot be underestimated. It is lack of this that 70-year old first time computer users lack that makes them so helpless - they never _played_ in this arena. Bruce Sterling envisioned librarians are gatekeepers to informations, worthy and rightous directors rather than distractors of attention, and simply providing kids and adults with 'net access is a huge step there. Just short of 10% of machines are down for one reason or another at any given time, and the staff is not qualified to administrate the machines nor to coach kids on using them. Being open to general 'net surfing, I'm told that they're infested with spyware and worms.

I can make these assertions because play was my first love, too. I wanted to write games. Then I discovered the net, and MUDs (Multiuser Online Dungeons). Problem was, it was 1990, and Internet access wasn't for sale to the general public. It wasn't for sale to the general public. It wasn't for 3 more years that a few isolated areas had tiny mom and pop ISPs pop up. Universities would sell access - but charged for VAX CPU time, connect time, and data transfered, for a cost to MUD of about $40/hour. Originally I abused a terminal server at a University - a trick I'd come back to later. It used to be that you'd dial the University modem pool, get a prompt that would reconnect you to any other machine on campus, and you could eventually find a machine with a guest account or something similar. Or a library computer with a public login that used lynx as the shell, "locked down" to connect only to the library catalog webserver (but if you could navigate to a gopher server by way of a more permissive Universities catalog that was linked to, you could go free and even create telnet:// links for yourself). One of these systems had an option to connect to another University's shell, and I would go to the library, go to the fourth floor, find a remote corner (actually, I did this in many libraries), sit down on a hard wood chair, and MU

Guard/restore cards by You+Don't+Know+Me · 2004-08-11 23:46 · Score: 2, Informative

A library I worked with a couple of years back used windows with a restore-on-reboot card. They'd get hit with a virus, or some other bad thing would happen to a system, but they could bring the system back to a known state by turning it off and back on.

Not the be-all answer (no fun if you have to restart XXX times a day) but in conjunction with not-too-frequent patching (weekly?) and a decent anti-virus package it can be good.

Also handy for getting rid of content/screen savers/other unwholesome content that a user might download.

(I'm not a fan of windows, just relaying an experience)

http://www.juzt-reboot.com/
http://www.hddguarder.com/

thinner than thin clients.. dummy clients by marafa · 2004-08-11 23:49 · Score: 1

you might be interested in this PXES. version 0.9 was released yesterday but never mind that.

this will not provide you with a thin client but with dummy clients. meaning that the client boots from the network via a pxe enabled card (most modern nics support this) and therefore you can disable (or remove) the floopy drive, the cdrom, the dvd, and the hard disk.

translation: the user cannot physically access the operating system except thru the network.

its pretty simple to setup and can even be used with windows terminal services but i do not recommend that legacy OS. in fact, i will recommend mandrake linux for several reasons:
1. draksec will sandbox your users very fast without much interaction from you (if required)
2. if you are not able to set up the server side on pxes. employ drakTermServ. mandrake's dummy terminal solution that comes standard with its distro.
3. it comes with kde which has a kiosk mode available (you will have to do your own research i m afraid)
4. it comes with openoffice.org meaning that your users can also read and write word documents, excel sheets, powerpoint presentations, adobe reader pdf (write!) and flash swf among other nice stuff.

did i mention the dummy clients wont have an operating system? meaning that you will only administer the operating system from the terminal server.

furthermore, (2 or 3 years ago) largo florida has a similar setup for 400 pc running of a 1gb ram dual p3-900 server or something like that

and if you are really stingy with money go get the hp d441 4 monitors, 4 keyboards and mice and 1 pc.

enjoy

--
_ In Egypt Networks: Network Solutions with a Twist

Done That - 7 Times and Counting! by ELBnet · 2004-08-11 23:50 · Score: 5, Informative

I have created a customized LTSP installation for libraries that is currently running in 7 public libraries. The system provides Web browsing and an Office Suite with timed sessions, print management, use statistics, floppy disk access, filtering (or not!). You can see one example install here

The system is completely GPL, requires no special hardware and I am currently working on an automated install system to make installation easier. If you are interested I can give you the email addresses of the directors that are using the system if you contact me: pete at elbnet.com.

--
-- I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken

I do by Luveno · 2004-08-11 23:52 · Score: 1

Deployed a couple hundred Wyse appliances for the nursing wards in the hospital I worked in back in 98-99. Worked pretty sweet, although the Citrix servers we had needed to be pretty beefy. Anytime there was an issue with one (it was rare), you just had to power it on and off, like a PlayStation. Was a good experience overall.

Ray of Sun in Duluth by eefsee · 2004-08-11 23:52 · Score: 1

The University of Minnesota-Duluth Library uses Sun Ray thin clients for many (though not all) of its public workstations. Look at their basic access hours for some evidence. I believe that while the Sun Rays are in the Libraries, they are run by the campus IT folks. I imagine either Library or campus IT staff could give you an idea of how they are used and how well they perform. I'm not sure who you would contact there for information, but I bet their directory might give you an idea.

Come to Case (Cleveland, OH) by dkh2 · 2004-08-11 23:55 · Score: 1

Here in the Kelvin Smith Library at Case Western Reserve University we have 50-something terminals that are a mix of low end Dells and Apple iMacs that boot off of a centrally managed host. It works very well for us for a number of reasons. Among them, we've stopped having unauthorized installations of [your least favorite warez here] every time we turn around, and having the one mother ship to manage has pretty much eliminated viral and worm infestations.

--
My office has been taken over by iPod people.

Network boot is a must , CPU power can be shared! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:02 · Score: 0

We use LTSP in our place. Works great. make
sure the clients have motherboard that allow
LAN BOOT other its a pain to boot from floppies
as their life is less.

Also its possible to fit multiple Display Cards
, mouse and keyboards so that the thinclient CPU
can to used by multiple (atleast 3-4) users.

Avoid Dynix by rueger · 2004-08-12 00:02 · Score: 2

All that I can say is avoid software from Dynix. Our local Hamilton Public Library, usually a superb outfit, just moved all of their catalogues to Dynix systems and it has been a total disaster.

The terminals in the library are very, very slow to respond, and for the first month the search funtion only worked about 10% of the time.

Talk to them before buying Dynix to find out what went so wrong.

--
Three Squirrels

Re:Avoid Dynix by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:23 · Score: 0

...and then our local library switched from Dynix to some Windows based thing, which is worse still. And probably more expensive (initial cost and maintenance both), which is good when library funding keeps getting cut. Unless Microsoft was giving them away (one of those "Bill Gates "donates" millions of $... to spend on his crap" deals).
Sucks regardless.

Think about your questions first by mst76 · 2004-08-12 00:04 · Score: 1

The key to getting useful answers is to formulate your question precisely. You're "hoping" to offer Web access and MS Office (with an Office license for every machine)? Of course it can be done. If money is not a significant constraint, anything can be done. As you can see from the posts, you have numerous options and solutions.

I'd suggest you first try to formulate your problem *precisely*. You're in charge. Don't ask what is possible, state what you WANT to be possible. What will be forbidden? Is it OK for people to play games all day? Chatting? Listen to radio? Download movies? Doing their homework? If you give a precise list of requirements, there's a much better chance of getting a small list of useful answers rather than hundreds of options that you still need to evaluate for yourself.

iMacs by Overzeetop · 2004-08-12 00:04 · Score: 1

Virginia Tech uses iMacs sprinkled all over their library to accest the online catalog as well as for internet terminals.

Of course, at any given time, it seems like 1/3 of them are out of service.

--
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?

Re:iMacs by pjt48108 · 2004-08-12 06:41 · Score: 1

Of course, at any given time, it seems like 1/3 of them are out of service.

This could also mean that, at any time, 3/3 of the tech staff are inept, and just let those iMacs sit until they absolutely MUST fix them.

--
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!

Thanks by jdp311 · 2004-08-12 00:05 · Score: 1

Just wanted to thank the person that started this discussion and all the people answering. I work at a library and face a lot of the same decisions. Good stuff!

Cheap thin clients by Alan+Cox · 2004-08-12 00:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yes but if you instead get 40 little epia boxes with no disk just a CF card, and a server its much cheaper. If you recycle old PC's as thin clients it gets very cheap indeed

Citrix/Terminal Services by Haileri$ · 2004-08-12 00:11 · Score: 1

Having just designed a Server Based Computing implementation for a bank, I know a little about SBC , at least in the Windows world. With Terminal Services/Citrix, you will be paying M$ big money, but then again you have said that you need to go a supported route. You need to budget in this case for M$ server costs and TS Client Access Licenses. Citrix offers more functionality but at an increased cost. Citrix gives you published applications, more manageability, and and increased client range (amongst other things.) It also provides an easy Web portal product to present the apps (Web Interfance) However, there are plenty of third party clients available for TS if you wanted to go that route, and some ways to publish apps via TS rather than having to publish a desktop. MPS3 (newest version of Citrix) is very powerful in the way you can partion the farm and configure users's experience. With Citrix/TS, you can connect to the same disconnected sessions thus keeping the vision of roaming users. App. compatibility issues are there but perhaps a little overstated here - new Office products for instance are built with TS in mind, and anything that is certified for XP should work without too much trouble. For the client end, you can run a thin platform, or you could run a cut down/locked down XP or linux client. All you need for Citrix is a web browser front end to log into the Web Interface. You can do the same for TS through ActiveX components. Lastly, you didnt mention printing as a requirement. If it is, you need to make sure you have enough bandwidth to print from a central location. Should be ok in your case but there are technologies out there to limit if you wish. Hope that helps a little. In summary, it is a viable way forward imho :)

Koha Open Source Library System by markbasedow · 2004-08-12 00:13 · Score: 2, Informative

Sorry this is not directly related to Thin Clients for libraries, but I had to mention it anyhow Koha - Open Source Library System http://www.koha.org/ It is an excelent open source library management system that should recieve more attention

Re:Howard County Libraries MD by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:15 · Score: 0

Actually its funny a similar scenario unfolded at my public library, in howard county MD.

They use to have these WYSE terminals which were ugly but worked . Then one day they replaced them with Dell windows machines everywhere, with a horrible library application. I really was upset that they spent my tax dollars on it.(not just the initial cost, but also you could see the added support costs already(e.g. one out of three machines not working).

Then after a couple of years I suddenly walked in and noticed that they had thin clients running linux with a great library search application. I was happy and when I mentioned it to the checkout librarian, she indicated that they were happy too.

I think that they used LFS to create a distro called Lumox. See article below.

http://www.newsforge.com/os/04/05/03/1520209.sht ml

Wyse client and W2K3 Terminal Server by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:15 · Score: 0

I would have to say migrating many of my users to a Terminal Server has been one of the best administrative moves I've made.

First, cost may not be an issue to you but it always looks good to save money. A Wyse terminal with a 15" LCD costs me $600 vs. $1000 for a Dell GX60 with an LCD (and that is with the "large business" discount). There is also an electrical savings because the terminal draws less current and I can spin that to say that the IT department is concerned about being more "green".

Second, setup cost is greatly reduced. It takes me about 2 hours to apply all patches and install our software to a new computer. It takes about 5 minutes to configure a Wyse for our environment.

Third, administration is greatly reduced. Want to upgrade from Office 2K to 2K3? No problem with the Wyse solution. I upgrade the terminal server and I'm done. I don't have to touch each client. Further, I can restrict people from running illegal programs in the terminal server configuration. How many times have you had to uninstall Hotbar and the like? I never do on the terminal server because I restrict the install program from ever even running.

I still have some users who can not go with a basic thin client due to their job demands. However, for the common user and, I would think, for a library terminal, thin clients and Windows Terminal Server 2003 (sorry guys), is a good solution.

Multi-boot by speculatrix · 2004-08-12 00:17 · Score: 1

I would strongly encourage you to install the systems multiboot, especially if you MUST have windows for the users.

Once you've got the first machine set up, you can then boot linux and trivially take a snapshot of the windows partition.

Clone the disk for each subsequent machine.

This means that you can restore each machine very quickly to a known baseline - just boot linux and login with, say, "winrestore", which will blat over the windows partition then reboot.

You can also test a new windows image on an isolated machine, then roll it out to each public computer in turn, and of course roll-back in the event of problems (think SP2 breaking badly).

I use XOSL for multiboot machines, it's brilliant, and saves a lot of hassles - if you, for example, reinstall windows you can restore the xosl boot menus very easily.

Paul

thin clients are nice, when their working by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:18 · Score: 0

My School has a network of thin clients for all the students, id guess somewhere around 1000 clients on it and it never seems to be work, but then again it is a school.

anyways its all windows 2k with citrix and the crap people mentioned above... when it works its not that bad, but that was before the invention of USB thumb drives *evil grin*

Thin clients by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:25 · Score: 0

I've done a lot of work in this field, you could do a lot worse that using the compaq/hp thin clients that run XPe, I realise that everyone else here will say linux, blah blah blah, but you have XP skills in house already, so it seems like the logical way forward with minimal extra learning.

Lets Consider The Stated Requirements by rben · 2004-08-12 00:26 · Score: 1

You say that you want to supply IE at a minimum, and that is understandable since there are many websites that don't work properly with Mozilla and other browsers because those sites don't follow standards. The only place you will find IE is on Microsoft Windows. This is a fundemental part of the Microsoft stragegy.

If you still want to consider an OS like Linux, you'll need to find one that can run IE under some kind of emulation. I don't know if that is possible.

You may also be at a disadvantage when it comes to NetNanny type programs, if you intend to use them to limit Internet access. Hopefully someone else here can supply more information about that.

I would suggest you place the actual boxen in a locked enclosure that prevents access to the floppy drive, CD/DVD drives and USB drives, since most modern machines will allow you to boot from any of these devices and thus gain complete control over the computer. A BIOS password might let you limit booting to a floppy so that you can expose CDs and USB ports

It occurs to me that this problem has probably been faced before by other libraries or organizations with similar needs, so you may be able to find some kind of open source project that is dealing with such problems.

Good luck. Know that your efforts are appreciated.

--

-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra

Re:Lets Consider The Stated Requirements by emtboy9 · 2004-08-12 00:45 · Score: 1

ITs a shame too, that something like IE is a requirement... if only people would write their damned web pages to be standards compliant and not MicroSoft compliant...

I still think, however, that this would be a good job for the K12LTSP setup... with the exception of something like net-nanny...but then again, I thought Libraries were supposed to fight censorship.. ;-) (let the battle begin!)

Also, instead of having to encase the boxen in plastic, he could also, once the machine is installed, simply remove the floppy and cdrom drives from the machines, or at least, yank the power cables, then secure the cases with locks. Also enble both BIOS AND boot passwords (if available). Then the only problem is USB, but honestly, unless you are using USB mice and keyboards, usb can be disabled in BIOS as well...

And yes, you are absolutely correct, I too highly doubt that this is a new problem. I would like to see other existing libraries be this conscious of their IT decisions and infrastructure, but that is the world we live in.

--
"Our funds have never taken part in toxic or death spiral convertible financings of any sort" -BayStar's managing partne

More specific... thin client hardware by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:27 · Score: 0

Damn. The thinknic.com guys are gone. My sister is still running one of those - after too many Windows, we gave her a NIC - runs Linux from CD. Cost $200 new. She wore out a mouse - otherwise it's fine. I wanted one too. Lindows.com has links to some inexpensive live-CD systems (less than $200) that are real PC hardware, perfect for running your live distribution of choice, or a removing the CD-ROM entirely and network botting into a Linux Terminal Server node. Linux Terminal Server Project is the way to go really - update and control everything from the server. Just make a reasonable guest account, give her a reasonable desktop (not too much stuff as to confuse, not too little as to be useless - just organize the "start" menu). Clients will come up broadcasting looking for for an xdm, the server will run an xdm daemon. It'll log them in over X over the network, start their session, etc. If you want to be retro, a lot of companies used to, and might still, make X terminals - computer-like things that bootp to find a server to load the X-Server software for their processor (i960, etc) off the network, and the broadcast for xdm. It's just like running X on a desktop machine and only using programs running over the network. It's completely graphical. They used to be quite popular. More thoughts.. -scott

Curiosity by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:30 · Score: 0

My ex actually managed over 300 machines that were Windows and OSX for a library, and they used Deep Freeze (which is only about 8-10 bucks per PC). They never had 'crashes and bluescreens' to troubleshoot on either one, since that is sort of the point of Deep Freeze.

What is it that you were having problems with using XP / OSX and Deep Freeze?

Keep in mind that I think OS is probably the best solution with you for several reasons (which I dont have to go over, because other people already have) - I'm just curious what was causing all the issues. A system that is for all intents and purposes 'reset' every 30 minutes shouldn't give you those sorts of issues.

Linux by bluness · 2004-08-12 00:30 · Score: 1

I am currently working at large university library, things to consider if you go to a thin client is possibly giving the users of your thin client system the ability to save information to floppy disk. All of our public computers are based on Windows 2000 but there is talk now about testing Linux as a public terminal. Currently the biggest problem with our Windows based public terminals is the constant fight against spyware/adware/popups. I would highly suggest testing a linux based system based on: the cost of licensing ($0), the availablity of the machines, the reduced risk of spyware and keyloggers.

thin clients in hawaii by the_hyperman · 2004-08-12 00:32 · Score: 1

Member from the Hawaii LUG - http://www.mplug.org/ - setup a school with Linux and some dummy machines - worked wonderfully. The overall cost was cheaper than most setups, especially if you can find anyone willing to donate the machines for the clients (had to buy the network cards - special requirements)

I like Deep Freeze by fu_yosemite · 2004-08-12 00:34 · Score: 1

Deep Freeze and Centurion work very well for any public labs. You get the benefit of a protected computer (for the most part) while keeping computational power. Centurion has the disadvantage that you can pop open the case and disable it, but Deep Freeze is all software based, and works very well at the University where I work in IS. You can automatically "thaw" the machine at set times to do Windows Updates and Virus Def updates, and lock the keyboard during those times, so the machine stays safe. The library here uses DeepFreeze successfully.

Thin Clients and Two Good Servers by dJCL · 2004-08-12 00:39 · Score: 0, Redundant

Where I work, we install thin client solutions as often as the user's apps will allow us. From just a few in an office to hundreds spread across the entire city, from 1 server when they could not afford redundancy to as many as needed for the client load. I think I can say that we think they are a good idea.

My suggestion: get 2 high end servers and put win2k3 on them, with load balancing and terminal services licenceses. Then just pick up any Win Terminal that anyone makes. We've found the Wyse hardware often failed on us a few years back, so we currently go with Neoware, but if you want a brand name, try IBM(made by neoware) or Compaq/HP(I used to work for them).

The configuration of the server will need someone who knows what they are doing, and they are out there. The thin clients take all of 30 seconds to setup. If your tech knows what he is doing he will have the terminal logins so locked down that it will take a lot of work to break, and he will have a backup image of the drives so that when it does break, he can get it up and running quickly.

Anyway...

Enjoy!

--
On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!

What do they use at my library? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:42 · Score: 0

I belive they use Windows ME - but they have some program that each time you log on of restart it rolls back a "fresh" install of windows.

Takes a few minutes from the time the last person signed off and the new person signed on but it seems to replace every file with a new one.

Anyone have any idea what program does this and if it works with 2k/xp?

ClearCube by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:52 · Score: 0

Try ClearCube Technologies of Austin Tx. I used their solution in a 300 seat call center several years ago and was very pleased and impressed. They essentially install a rack with a number of blade "PCs" connected by ethernet to a small box at the workstation, the small box connects to a monitor/LCD, the keyboard and the mouse. This is a very effective solution that also reduces maintenance costs and minimizes downtime (you can easily switch between blades from the remote workstation and the blades are hot-swappable).

Get a SOLID contract with a good PC supplier. by Theovon · 2004-08-12 00:53 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, thin clients aren't really good for situations where you need to use actual Microsoft Office. Sure, there are some Windows thin clients, but they suck, and they tend to be best for specialized applications. Plus, even though Linux thin clients have a bit more freedom (with X11 being network transparent), they're also really not great for GENERAL PURPOSE use.

One thing you could do is set up a bunch of Linux thin clients for WEB USE ONLY with Mozilla. This way, you have a bunch of simple computers that you don't need to reboot very often but which are special purpose.

As for the computers where people must use Microsoft Office and IE, etc., you're probably best off sticking with a major brand of PC manufacturer where you can get a warranty and efficient support. Call Dell and tell them that you want them to fix their damn computers, and you're not going to put up with any excuses about viruses being out of their control.

Set up a contractual arrangement with a PC supplier that says that if you are not satisfied that you can return all of the computers for a full refund. So, when your Dell computers start flaking out on you, you call Dell to fix them. If they cannot make them reliable, get your refund and switch to another PC supplier, until you find one who will bundle the appropriate combination of security tools, make their hardware reliable, and lock things down so that stupid users and hackers can't break your computers. Part of your contract should be to require a full report on every failure. If the same failures keep happening, return the computers for a refund. If too many failures happen, return for a refund. Don't go soft.

The truth of the matter is that even though Windows sucks, it's VERY possible to keep it stable and secure. You just need an administrator who knows what s/he's doing and some way to prevent users from doing stupid things. Uneducated users are the number one threat to Windows security. People do some really bone-headed things with their PC's, and THAT is why they get infected with viruses (most of the time).

What might be a good idea is to write up a set of requirements (virus protection, minimum uptimes, etc.) and submit them to major PC suppliers.

Buy from whomever will meet your needs. You don't have time to be putting up with any bullshit. You need computers that WORK that you don't have to worry about. Let them know that if they can't come through, they're history. Windows computers are run reliably all over the place, so there's no reason why you can't have that too.

Our Library by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:54 · Score: 0

I have done some work in our local library and we use a hardware device called a Sherriff Card. Basically when the card and software is installed it will allow a user to make any changes to the system, however when rebooted it goes back to the original state it was set up to. It has reduced the need for service calls :( (used to be my job) entirely. They have been using them now for a couple years. Great device for public access machines.

WYSE,Neoware by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:54 · Score: 0

Regarding a library placement, most individuals that will be utilizing your internace access point(s) will more than likely not be able to really work with a linux distribution and browser. Most people are used to the windows interface because that's all they know. To keep a solution that will keep you from getting quite a few requests with how to browse the internet, etc.. you will want to really consider thin terminals such as WYSE, Neoware, etc. You can get them embedded from factory with a variety (2k,XPe) of OS's and you can evan have linux embedded on some of them as well (depending on the vendor). If I could offer any kind of advice, I would recommend a windows solution for a public placement. Everyone one (well almost) knows windows, but not necessarily linux. It could be frustrating for your and your users with the overhead involved. I'd recommend spicing it up with a linux variant and then see if people gradually move to that, and then accomodate them down the road and rid your placement of windows. Just my .02

Lumix by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:56 · Score: 0

Check this out http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA406008&amp ;

Thin clients are the way to go by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 00:57 · Score: 1, Informative

Last year at Torcon, the internet lounge was run off of a bunch of old machines running Knoppix. It had been customized in a few ways that I could see. The nice thing is that the customization was done once and then a bunch of CDs were burned. Any time one of the clients had a problem that could be resolved quickly, a CD was shoved into the drive and it was rebooted. Many of the users never noticed that they weren't using Windows. The ones who did generally commented on the fact that Linux was much friendlier than they expected.

Most of the guys doing the late-night support didn't have any particular sys admin experience as far as I know. They got a brief intro and were off and running.

Macs with Netboot! by filmguy1105 · 2004-08-12 00:58 · Score: 3, Informative

I've set up this kind of system for a number of local non-profits specifically because they don't have an IT department. It works great. After you set it up it just works. If a client starts acting funny, you just restart it and it gets a brand new copy of software. You can configure how much access users have to software. You can make different rules for different users or different computers if necessary. It's really stable. The ones that I have running right now are up from security patch to security patch. Also, each Netboot server can handle up to 50 clients. So with an education discount, a G5 with the OSX Server and 50 eMacs will run you about $40,000.

What worked for me by XanC · 2004-08-12 00:59 · Score: 1

I'm the administrator at the Westbank Community Library in Austin. We've got 25 public access Dells and for years we dealt with the exact problems you describe: glitches, bluescreens, lack of uniformity, lock-down software not functioning perfectly.

The solution: Linux. Not in a thin client situation, but re-syncing each night with systemimager.

The X startup files are set to erase the home directory and replace it with the prototype copy every logout, which means guests can even use the hard drive for temporary storage.

KDE is in Kiosk mode, just to prevent shell access and simplify the interface. Since the home directory is erased at logout, the user is perfectly free to configure Firefox (or whatever other app) however he wants, because it only affects that session.

We've got OpenOffice as well as Crossover to run MS-Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.

It's Debian stable with a few backports, and it's extremely low maintenance.

If anything breaks, stick the "Fix It" floppy in, it formats the hard drive and transfers everything over. The other day I swapped out a dying hard drive, let it boot from the floppy, and the machine was up and running again. 5 minutes of work.

No advice here by gone.fishing · 2004-08-12 01:03 · Score: 1

The problem with public terminals isn't so much the terminals but the public. Therefore thin clients are probably your best solution.

You will still have problems. Given the opportunity and enough time, the public will do things to your terminals that nobody ever imiagined anyone would do. If they can't change some software setting, they will do things like put tape under the mouse or unlpug the terminal from the wall.

To a certain sect of people, a "bullet proof" public terminal is a challenge - the fact that it is so locked down is a tempting invitation to them. If they can't break the software, then they will go after the hardware. They are like vandals. You really can't beat them but you have to find ways to endure them. Attempting to beat them will only make them do things that really make matters worse for you.

The best bet to protect public terminals is to control access by requiring identification of the users and checking thir use of the machines. Of course that makes them a little less public.

How about NO, Scott by charliekowalchuk · 2004-08-12 01:04 · Score: 1

"How about NO, Scott" -Dr. Evil Look, obviously the author is looking to Thin Clients to save 1. time, 2. Money, 3. Complexity. Isn't switching to Macs (forcing thousands of people to use a backward thinking OS (compared to windows) going to be going in the opposite direction. I mean just to rub it in and piss people off, I'll say this, Macs would be a great solution if the author wanted to make everything, 1. More expensive, 2. More time consuming to do even the simplest of tasks and IT work for the admins, and 3. Make everyone except for the elite few who own a mac at home completely and utterly confused on how to print anything, oh, and 4. Force the Library to continue to keep throwing money at their problems until it returns back to the ground from where it started. Look complain all you want, but I'm sure if this author just saw that you don't need MS OFFICE to read, edit, and make office docs, then he/she would surely consider the idea of going with a simple linux distro with no extra licenses. If you went with SuSE and Opera, that would be the Cats Meow. And not to mention Novell owns SuSE now, so networking with Thin Clients would be, how you say, not hard.

Re:How about NO, Scott by ischorr · 2004-08-12 01:08 · Score: 1

Someone rate the parent +1 funny! That's just good satire...
Re:How about NO, Scott by Speedracerman · 2004-08-12 01:31 · Score: 1

Agreed,

How can a few people comment on this saying that an emac would cost as much as a Linux Box (hmm, maybe one using OS 9, yes, lets all buy new hardware that can only run programs 6 years old). (Do people even know what a SUN ray is?)

Hey, WHOEVER thinks that the author WANTS to get a brand new DELL and FLATSCREEN for everybody?, obviously doesn't know what a thin client is. Maybe this word is hard for Mac users to understand, "Thrifty".

If I needed a pickup truck to haul stuff, and I asked who I should rent from. You mac users would be telling me to go out and BUY a Brand new Cadillac SUV. Then when I ask, "Is this going to get done what I need" You'll be like, "hmmmm, what was it you needed? Haul stuff? NO, you shouldn't haul stuff, you might scratch it! It looks pretty Though ^_^

No one is telling you to not buy one, but that shouldn't be your suggestion to every question. (ie. (Slashdotter) I want a cheap terminal emulator for my windows PC, [Mac User], "You Should BUY a Mac", -no actual thought involved-)

Neoware Capio Terminals by christooley · 2004-08-12 01:17 · Score: 1

The Neoware Capio Terminals support a large number of different kinds of sessions (RDP, X, SSH, VNC, etc) and have a good set of peripheral ports available. While the Sun Ray is a nice terminal, the Neoware has both serial and parallel ports, PS/2, USB, Sound and Video.

They also run linux, so if you have some weird peripheral, like I do, you can get the build environment for the system and build the kernel module for support. There may end up being a lot of odd things that come up that you can do on a normal PC that you find out just aren't possible on a thin client because there's no software running locally. Also they are priced very competitively to the Sun Ray without the need for a special server portion to operate them. While there is an application to manage the terminals, it doesn't need to be running for the terminals to work.

It simpler than that by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:17 · Score: 0

You have full PCs already. Use them. Bring in a 2003 Server, use AD, get rid of the extra 3rd party software thats been loaded on those machines (probably the reason for the bluescreens), and lock them down. Do not allow users to make changes to the machines. If you want to learn more I am sure there are plenty of MS people watching this and would love to help...just ask. Have heard plenty of horror stories of the sunray solution with regards to network bandwidth requirements. Don't do it!!

Our county library system uses Citrix by jACL · 2004-08-12 01:19 · Score: 1

And it works well. The Cuyahoga County Public Library system runs Citrix thin-client terminals at each branch which connect back to Citrix servers at their data center.

Both Internet access and library services are provided through the browser. Everyone seems very happy with it -- the terminal are always in use.

--
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace

Re:Our county library system uses Citrix by smurfnsanta · 2004-08-12 01:45 · Score: 1

Doesn't Citrix increase the price per node by several hundred dollars each, or is there a price break for public institutions?

Kiosk Admin Tool in KDE 3.3 come August, and... by leonbrooks · 2004-08-12 01:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

Mandrake Terminal Server available since, I think, 9.0. If you're running audio, video or just lots of screens, go for "diskless fat client" mode rather than "thin client" mode; NFS + Linux's caching makes the network bandwidth much nicer that way, and lots of things like plugging in USB thumbs, cameras or PDAs are easier to manage.

If you want to charge for it, I've cobbled up an infrastructure based on Ruby and PostgreSQL which seems to work fine. It'll be released soon (weeks) under the name "lincaf" (GPL, natch). It will probably learn how to be coin-op within a few weeks as well.

You can actually use the Kiosk tool with any KDE from 3.2.0, and most of the setting effects from it (by hand-editing config files) from KDE 3.0. The Kiosk structure allows you to default changes back to a system config file, so you can make changes for all users (or all in a group) post facto.

What I did for lincaf was set up a template user, tell useradd to borrow that filetree, then do a pass over it with a few lines of Ruby to re-sanitise config files and the like.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

UMass Amherst's public library by raddan · 2004-08-12 01:21 · Score: 1

uses (or used, when I was a student there) a large number of Sun thin clients alongside their Mac and Wintel machines. My only complaint is that the window manager (OpenLook?) was totally obtuse if you'd never used a different WM than windows.

Thin Clients in libraries by AndyTayl0r · 2004-08-12 01:27 · Score: 1

I have extensive experience of using this sort of technology in a library setting and it works, mostly. Your requirement for a floppy disk drive doe limit things a bit and certainly points towards a Citrix based setup with PCs as clients. They can be running DOS or any version of Windows though. I would also recommend DeepFreeze to protect them. Citrix will allow the use of Floppy dirves and locally attached printers. It can easily be used to lock down the applications that you want to make available. You might also want to look at a product that can provide seamless access to external data sources and/or filter internet browsing. An example of this software is NetMan: www.hh-zfrk.com You will need to purchase a server or servers that have adequate capacity to supoprt the number of users you have. Andy

100% whack-a-mole, 100% useless by leonbrooks · 2004-08-12 01:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

I replaced such a system with Linux. Unless you lock the MS-Windows browsers down to the point of total uselessness (especially MSIE), there's always a way to slip a crack in under the radar. Every gap you close leaves another ten.

Using Linux, /bin/false as a shell, mounting the guest-users' $HOME with noexec, and tightening the screws on a handful of KDE's Kiosk Admin config items ended all of that instantly, and so far permanently.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

LUMIX (plus address to order for free) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:28 · Score: 0

http://os.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=04/05/03/1520 209

Cincinnati Public Library by karlowfwb · 2004-08-12 01:29 · Score: 1

The Public Library of Cincinnati and Hamilton County has also recently implented a Citrix thin client system through their entire system. As a former employee, I can tell you I was not impressed. Granted, I was not in the IT department, so I cannot testify to the aptitude of the administrators, but the system, even over a gigabit network was always very slow. The only thing it really worked well for was our terminal based catalog and circulation system. Office apps were often very laggy, and web pages, especially "rich" web pages would quite frequently cause Internet Explorer to die in such a way that it could not be closed and would let no other instances be opened. Very irritating.

To their benefit, however, the system seemed much more responsive when I was at the main location, so it is possible that this was a networking issue. However, with fiber running to every branch, I'm not sure where the bottleneck was.

These are just my observations, hope they help.

We Use Them - ups and downs by dfluke2 · 2004-08-12 01:41 · Score: 1

We use what we call 'netstations' here at Washburn University They have their ups and downs. Part of our problem is that students have reached a point in time where they hate the current setup, and different departments are furnishing their own labs with PCs. The current setup is getting too old to handle the applications we're using. They still have Word Perfect 8, no Open Office etc. The units are old and overdue for an upgrade, but now we're in a battle pc vs. thin client. Sure, we can use WinDD to get to a Windows NT environment, but students don't have that access.

We are slowly moving to a PC environment, but that may change in the near future. We've been testing some thin clients called NeoWare clients. The main advantage here, is that they are new thin clients, and not clunky, 8-24 MB RAM, no hard disk, thin clients we are using. All our stuff runs AIX with generic CDE, but we're moving to RH Enterprise in Fall 2005 with the new NeoWare clients. I believe we were given the chance to test one out. The main advantage here is that the OS is loaded from the hard disk it has built in and it has a video card that can handle flash animation (and supports better browsers). Most of our students use these for browsing the web. Wireless access has become fairly big here too, partly due to the limitations in the hardware we currently have. I do not have the main server specs to share, I'm not a part of that dept.

Hope this helps!

LTSP by tacocat · 2004-08-12 01:42 · Score: 1

Possible the best solution I can offer is the Linux Terminal Server Project. It's really quite functional and can be used transparently with Gnome, KDE or whatever.

The concept is a true thin client configuration with a networked server providing all the applications. It's been run over ethernet, fast-ethernet, and even wireless 802.11b networks. One of the great advantages with it is that you do not require updates/upgrades of client hardware/software since there isn't any. It can also be run diskless and/or on very small machine (VIA EPIA 533 is one that does well and takes 32W of power).

disklessworkstations.com is a company put together by the LTSP owners to sell the LTSP client appliances. They can provide more information and hardware/software/technical support if needed. Jim McQuillan is a very cool guy.

Switch Different. by njfuzzy · 2004-08-12 01:44 · Score: 1

Everyone is suggesting Linux. I mean, I get it. Solidarity and all. That's cool.

But this is a library. Let's not forget how nice it can be to have a stable OS that also have some polish, a clean user experience, and easy setup. Yes, I am talking about getting some macs.

--
My Photography - http://ian-x.com
The Deathlings (comic) - http://thedeathlings.com

For non-thin do alot of images by cornjones · 2004-08-12 01:44 · Score: 1

If you do decide to go w/ full boxes I highly recommend sophisticated imaging. Many public internet terminal shops do this. Image your workstation. Then, when a user is done, automagically wipe it and lay down teh image again. Done right, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes and it eliminates problems w/ users downloading/installing/messing around. If you don't want to do it between each user, set them to do it on boot. That way, if you have a problem, your troubleshooting can come down to hitting the reset button.

Just a thought. And BTW, you definitely sound pretty savvy for a non professional. Impressive considering you do a real job too.

My library has thin clients by Eudial · 2004-08-12 01:48 · Score: 1

My library has thin clients for book searching.

They run Solaris or Linux or something like that, and run Windows 2000/XP through VNC. The problem is that the administrator is incredibly incompetent. You can Ctrl+Alt+Backspace out of the X session and end up in a password free terminal with root access to the entire network. The library also has a wifi network connected to this search network... well, i shouldn't need to tell you any more x.x;

Well, let's just describe it as security suicide.

--
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!

been there, done that by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 01:49 · Score: 0

I've successfully setup a Windows 2003 domain (installed as win 2000, upgraded to win2003)
and over a dozen thin client rdp clients for a small library in Maine that I consult for. Thin client terminals are used for OPAC access, material checkin/out, internet browsing, workroom, etc.

Pros: security and lockdown options are great through domain group policies and mandatory profiles. No problems, whatsoever in this department. machines are stable and never go down. (I've had similar experience with both Wyse windows-based thin clients as well as "no-name" Acute Network Technologies thin clients - though would not recommend Acute based on poor customer service.) One fairly beefy server handles all clients, web services provided by the library, domain crap, email services, and library systems. Using Symantec AntiVirus, no problems whatsoever in that department. Also have Mozilla FireFox and IE installed side-by-side for patrons to use either one, no issues there either.

Cons: No disk drives (at least not in the terminals I've used.) Clients with floppy drives were not available at the time of the initial install. This is an issue for internet users only at this point. I would recommend purchasing one or two PCs as an alternative to the terminal if you cannot find a thin client with floppy drives.

I manage this network remotely 95% of the time, visiting a one or two times per year to do the things that I can't do remotely. It works like a charm, and I have never had a major issue with it. I would HIGHLY recommend pursuing this option to anyone in a similar situation.

If you have other questions, contact me at: .a.u.d.e.t.t.e.b.@.g.m.a.i.l...c.o.m.

I work for a library too by dramaley · 2004-08-12 01:51 · Score: 1

I'm the systems administrator for a university library. To provide computing for our patrons we use a mixture of Dells running Windows 2000, iMacs with OS X, and Linux machines running LTSP.

Windows can be made very secure, but it takes a lot of time to learn how to set it up properly. Over time i've accumulated lots of small utilities to aid in the task, as well as written several scripts of my own. Besides locking the system down as much as possible, i have a script that runs weekly which uses Norton Ghost to re-image the hard drive.

Macs can also be made very secure. Again, over time i've written scripts to do much of the work on new installs. Here's some URLs to get you started: macosxlabs macosxhints bombich Finally, there is Linux. These are my favorite machines because the administration time required is almost 0. We are running Linux Terminal Server Project with hardware purchased from DisklessWorkstations.com. The machines do not have write access to the server that they boot from, so nothing can get screwed up. If anything happens to a machine, we just have to reset it and a minute later it is back to normal. Setting up the first terminal took some work because i was not familiar with network booting or running an operating system from read-only media (a read-only nfs share in this case), but once the first one is set up, adding additional units is trivial. In our setup the applications actually run on the diskless station, but it is more common to run applications on the server and have them display on the diskless station. If you wanted to go that route, you'd want to spend some money on a nice server, but it should work well. I've actually been thinking of buying a better server and trying to run applications on it and eventually trying to move all computing to Linux.

--
----- "I'm still sane on three planets and two moons."

Go with terminal server! by CodeBlunderer · 2004-08-12 02:02 · Score: 1

and use good software.
www.tlcdelivers.com
Someone is allways selling lots of WYSE Winterminals on ebay too.

ya, why bother to read what the post says... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:06 · Score: 0

just keep spouting off about popping linux into their box's, who cares if they already said that it is not an option (no support, vertical learning curve for drones that can't dbl-click...ya, makes sense to offer them linux...GET REAL!)

From a library... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:07 · Score: 0

I'm writing this on a terminal at the Stratford Public Library, Stratford, Ontario, Canada. They have switched ALL of their public access to terminals to a linux based :-) system. More info can be found at:

www.Userful.com/library

They've been here for a month now, and working like a dream, compared to the M$ junk we had before...:-)

Howard County MD library success story by JacobKreutzfeld · 2004-08-12 02:08 · Score: 1

http://os.newsforge.com/os/04/05/03/1520209.shtml? tid=2&tid=82&tid=94

read the quote, stop offering home brew ... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:10 · Score: 0

"So homebrew Linux solutions are really out (plus, vendor support is important for selling ideas like this to the municipal government)"

Re:requirements are contradictory and a bit confus by westlake · 2004-08-12 02:10 · Score: 1

I'd personally try to push you away from supporting a lot of apps outside of just plain-jane internet access. Supporting the apps is going to be a pain in the ass, and people are going to be taking up lots of time writing term papers, etc when others just want to check their email

The village library is the only place in town with publicly accessible computers, MS Office, Publisher, printers, scanners, etc. These services are used by everyone in town, a huge draw for the library, and it's new center of activity. 19 inch screens a big hit with the middle-aged and elderly. Nothing much was happening when all it had to offer was a locked-down web kiosk.

Thin Clients, Metaframe, etc. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:24 · Score: 0

-You can buy used thin clients on ebay - very cheap
-Since they have no Floppy or CDROM, users can't upload a virus
-Using Citrix Metaframe, you can publish various applications, including Office, Star Office, IE and/or Netscape.
-Thin clients tend to be very easy to configure.
-Having an app. server means only having to maintain 1 machine (instead of a whole bunch of PCs)
-Adding a seat is as simple as adding another thin client (little, if any additional configuration)
-Using Metaframe, you can publish different applications to different users or groups. So you can have the kiosks using one set of apps, and employees using another set & still only have one application server farm to worry about.

you must work for Sun by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:28 · Score: 0

I'm sure you can spend nearly $1800 for a Dell with only W2K, but you can also get a fairly loaded PC with a monitor for $499 at any CompUSA or Best Buy or Dell. For another $300 you can have your copy of Office. For another $100 you can have soem AV software and a copy of Ghost. You don't need Ghost for EVERY computer! That 40 PC rollout then just cost half the Sun system and you don't have 1 point of failure. You also have the ability to upgrade some PCs without having to shell out another lump sum.

Thin clients have their place, but at least be fair and not load the numbers.

There are a few options. by aixguru1 · 2004-08-12 02:29 · Score: 1

Even after the Novell take over of the Linux Terminal Server Project, I believe that is still available. That will provide the most useful information that I have found for building a kiosk base system. I have personally been involved in creating a diskless kiosk that is widely used in a particular environment and know that you will have to either invest a lot of time to perfect it, or have someone else do it for you. I haven't looked at the LTSP in a while, but if they don't have what you need, they probably have a link to it.

There were some others developing clients like that before such as the Neoware systems. I had an opportunity to demo one of those. I wasn't impressed with the way the PXE boot worked, but otherwise it was ok. IBM has developed a few as well. They used to offer a kiosk like image with their Netvista 2200 products.

You should definately watch out for two things: compression types, and flash disks. Depending on the number of clients, you could face issues with using flash drives. Compression is a wonderful thing and when done properly on an image (such as knoppix) it will run just fine. One model I tested years ago tried to use gzip for the compression on the filesystem. It ran like a slug trying to cross the road with salt on his back. Knoppix is also not a bad idea. It would make a good start at an image. Just lock down certain keys in your Xdefaults file or using xmodmap (re-assign to nonworking keys essentially) and add in a front script to mozilla that forces a java based lock down of the browser when started. With that and a few small tweaks you could create a kiosk type system.

--
root 10956 5164 0 Oct 22 - 0:23 sendmail: rejecting connections: load average: 70 (isn't sendmail just too kind)

accessibility issues and thin clients by lazarus+corporation · 2004-08-12 02:29 · Score: 1

I don't know what your legal obligations are for disabled access to this public resource, but be aware that with thin clients your choice of accessibility software is limited - the usual selection of freeware (screen readers, etc) can't be installed because you're using a thin client.

Similarly, a disabled user can't simply change the default settings (screen magnification etc) because these are based on the server, and should be sensibly out of reach of your library users.

There are thin-client accessibility solutions available, but I don't know if any are free of charge, so remember to cost these into your (enviably unrestricted!) budget, as well as sound cards and headphones if you install any screen reader software on the system.

--
the lazarus corporation

Macs by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 02:29 · Score: 0

buy some E-Macs and visit macosxlabs.org.

OS-X is the best for this sort of solution.

DONE AND DONE.

Macintosh - eMac or maybe iMac by Jimithing+DMB · 2004-08-12 02:33 · Score: 1

I strongly recommend that you consider the Macintosh platform for use in your public library. Not only are the computers easy to use, but they are also easy to administer. Apple makes Mac OS X Server, a turn-key directory, file, e-mail, and print server at a reasonable cost ($1k for unlimited clients or included with an Xserve).

The only real disadvantage to Macintosh is that you cannot run Windows programs on it, although you cannot do that on Linux either. In a public setting this may be taken as an advantage as it prevents people from running the common Windows viruses.

Microsoft Office is available and well supported on the Mac which gives it an advantage over Linux. Microsoft Office for Mac is fully compatible with Office for Windows.

As another bonus, printing to PDF is built in. This can be very handy for people who wish to save something such as a web receipt to a file rather than print out a hardcopy. Also, the printing support in OS X is very good. Should a printer fail, as typically happens when a printer is used day in and day out, it is trivially simple to drag the document from one printer to another. The printers don't even have to be similar.

With respect to keeping the computers clean you could either import your database of library card holders into Open Diectory and give everyone his own user account, or you could set up a guest account, or both. For guest accounts you would of course want something that keeps the account clean. OS X is a true UNIX based system so normal user accounts are restricted to their home directory. It is trivially simple to write a script to wipe out the directory and replace it with a skeleton. Unlike Windows where a new user account has several values preloaded from the default user, on OS X a new user account only contains a few folders for storing data and one or two UNIX dotfiles.

As you mention, Linux would also be a good choice although Linux administration is generally more difficult. With OS X you've got a system already built for situations like yours. There is no need to ensure the OS will work with your hardware because Apple makes both the hardware and the OS. There is no need to figure out how to get OpenLDAP working on your own. There is no need to setup Samba or NFS on your own.

Sure, Linux has all the same backend software as OS X and Linux can be a very good choice. I know there are plenty of other people here who have extoled and will extole the virtues of it. However, if you want something that just works with a minimum of hassle then what you really want is a Mac.

I you want to use windows- by ixj · 2004-08-12 02:34 · Score: 1

If you want to use windows and basic windows programs, I would stay away from thin clients. To help with mantaining them, I would look into somethign like this: http://www.centuriontech.com/ We use this stuff in all of our labs. You just have to unlock the computer once a month to get updates.

Cost not a factor? MS Office? That's Mac by mbaciarello · 2004-08-12 02:43 · Score: 1

If cost is not a problem in the library (read the article, people), why not go for the most attractive, easy-to-use solution?

You get a full range of web browsers for all your needs, decent support from the company (if you pay for it), and probably discounts since you're working in an educational area.

When it comes to Office applications, they may not be exactly the same as their Win32 counterparts, but Windows people won't certainly get lost when using them.

When you've got the bucks and don't have very special IT needs, Mac is a must.

I've got a small thin client installation by piles_of_spam · 2004-08-12 02:51 · Score: 1

Basically, I've got an 802.11b setup in the house, and one reasonably fast PC (AMD xp1800+) set up with SUSE 9.1 (used to run slackware and still do on other machines, but got tired of dependency hell on this one). I've also got an abysmally slow laptop (P-133 with 32MB of non-expandable ram) with a wireless pcmcia card. I put Vector Linux http://vectorlinux.com/ on the client PC, and some of the logins automatically ssh -X into the server, where the login script there does a 'startkde'. Aside from the fact that you have to type your password twice, its made the thin client full featured and much faster than it ran standalone, and this is on about 2MB/sec practical throughput. I don't know what the load on the server is, except I can play UT2K4 on it while my wife surfs the internet on the laptop, and neither of us notices a slowdown. Only problem is when you wander out of 802.11 range with the laptop. Everything stops.

We use iNode in our librarys by the+Luddite · 2004-08-12 02:54 · Score: 1

We use a product called iNode in our library open computer labs and it works very well. I work for a community college and the students REALLY hammer the machines. This software works like a charm and rarely needs attention. It is easy to learn and is very robust. Here is a link to some info on it if you are interested.

http://www.persystent.net/techflyer.pdf

If you would like to talk to us (the support people at the college) in person or via email, please let me know. I can also put you in touch with the vendor but I wouldn't throw a stranger to the salespeople without a warning first. They are great people to deal with but a salesperson is still a salesperson no matter who they work for!

- Randy

Re:requirements are contradictory and a bit confus by Om242 · 2004-08-12 02:54 · Score: 2, Informative

I work for a rather large library system in the Houston area (25 different locations, and I'm in the CO), so I'd like to touch on a few points in your post.

So you don't want Windows, but you want IE, Word, Excel and Powerpoint?

I don't believe she said she didn't want Windows, but rather she was unafraid of a non-Windows alternative.

I'd personally try to push you away from supporting a lot of apps outside of just plain-jane internet access.

That would be suicide! At least in my library system. You see, a lot of the time people come into the library to use the computers because *they dont have one*. What this means is that they use computers for all sorts of things, from doing term papers on Word and using our printers to print them. Some come in and work on a spreadsheet for something they are working on at home. Powerpoint? Sure! Why not? What if they need to do a presentation for a class, or for their own business, and they'd like the resources of a library system at their backs while doing research on it. Again, people come to the library to use the computers for all sorts of reasons, and it would be quite presumptuous of us if we thought they only need Internet access.

My point is, the library is where information is collected with the tools to utilize all of it. Not just Internet access. Heck, we even provide free 'Computer Use' classes that teach people from the nearby trailor parks how to browse the web, or click with a mouse.

Hope this helps clear up a few things. :)

++Om

http://www.thinstation.org/ by lucason · 2004-08-12 02:56 · Score: 1

You should check out http://www.thinstation.org/

Though the actual implementation could be just a tad technical, and you will need a terminal server, it is an interesting path.

You will be able to use low cost hardware, and nobody will mess up the PC's as there isn't anything installed on them.

HP windows thin clients by adamiis111 · 2004-08-12 03:04 · Score: 2, Informative

Go here: http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/thinclients/ind ex_t5000.html HP makes Windows and Linux thin clients - all fully supported. This is not something I've tried, but I agree that thin client is the way to go in this situation (low user needs and high maintenance worries). You might think about sticking with windows since so many people know how to use it - hard to say. On the other hand, linux is better in so many ways ($$$ and stability/susceptibility to viruses). Go with Linux and all will be well. Have one windows machine in the corner 'just in case'.

A great solution by airblaine · 2004-08-12 03:07 · Score: 1

I run a RedHat 9 central server that has OpenOffice and Ximian Evolution. Our thin clients and old 486 machines do an X query to the central server and an x session is displayed. This has been a great benifit as it cut administration time and has eliminated the need for re-boots. Also there is no need for licence administration. (unless SCO gets their way!)

What I would do... by raymo03 · 2004-08-12 03:09 · Score: 1

I've worked in the IT department of a University Library for about three years now, so I've done some work on this myself. The problem with switching to Linux or even Mac is that 99% of your patrons coming in will be used to the windows world, and most of them will have no idea on how to use anything else. If you switched the stations to Linux, your librarians will be spending a significant part of their time just helping users to do basic computing tasks. I'm not saying that Linux is so complicated that people can't figure it out, but the majority of computer users get frustrated by change.

We use all Windows 2000 machines here and lock down the profiles through group policy. Add a good virus scanner (Trend Micro PC-Cillin 2004) and make sure automatic updates are set to download and install automatically, and you will have almost no problems. We also use a program called public browser (http://teamsoftware.bizland.com/) and disguise it as Internet Explorer and set it as the default browser to lock down the browser end of things. Public Browser also works well for our kiosk stations that just show our catalog.

If a machine does get hit (none of our new ones have) it doesn't take much to re-immage it. If we had the funds, I would deffinitely like to move to XP, mostly for the benifits included in SP2, but 2000 does fine for us.

The other thing we will be doing in the future is putting all our public machines behind a firewall/router for increased security.

Windows with PublicBrowser...Excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:12 · Score: 0

The CSU library I used to work for uses a windows 2003 terminal server with thin clients and also just windows 2000 workstations for public computers. We used publicbrowser to totally lock down the computers and terminal server and were really pleased with how it worked. It can be just a locked down browser (runs on top of IE), or a complete shell to limit access to only certain programs. It was super cheap ($100/year for site license) and had great support. Check out teamsoftware.bizland.com for a free trial download. Good luck with your setup.

Salt Lake City Library does it by rexhavoc1 · 2004-08-12 03:13 · Score: 1

Contact the new CIty Library in Salt Lake City, UT. They're using thin clients quite succesfully for research and Net stations (backed with an OC3, no less).

True thin-clients versus netbooting? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:16 · Score: 0

Sadly, this will be lost in the noise, but I'd like to posit netbooting of 'fat' hosts as a way to split the difference between thin-clienting and the many-Windows-boxes-many-disks problem.

Case in point: If LTSP is an option, it's presently impossible to buy a clean, new x86 that will be incapable of running Mozilla and so forth on its own; even a Via should be more than enough, and RAM is nearly cheap as air. Truly thin clients either have that much horsepower and power consumption (but are crippled to run only an X server), or won't offer much monetary savings versus.

If you want users to be able to mount the floppy locally, it *is* possible with some hacking in a completely 'thin' setup, but running the full 'fat' OS per each host will make that problem easier and distribute the load. (Why buy a 4-way Opteron to serve 40 Athlon XPs, if users could be served faster using each individual AXP's grunt on its own?)

With this configuration, you get the security and maintenance advantages of thin-clienting (centralized storage on one fileserver, diskless clients, all systems booting one disk image, similar to the Knoppix suggestion), but decouple yourself from the central server's CPU bottleneck while gaining the performance and flexibility advantages of individual desktops. (Want to repurpose a few machines to Windows so the Continuing Ed crowd can learn the Microsoft way? Fine, make a Windows image, and push it to only those MACs.)

---

When the hardware does show its age, it will become worthwhile to invest in a single massive server and go fully thin without replacing all 40+ desktops. At that point, you'll be needing the horsepower and RAM of those full desktops to run the next generation of X servers and RDP clients (look at what MS is doing to graphics with Longhorn), anyway.

just get macs. by sootman · 2004-08-12 03:42 · Score: 1

Seriously. If you want Office, floppies, no viruses, and have money, get Macs and USB floppy drives. They'll R/W PC-formatted floppies, have no viruses, and they're Unix underneath so you can script things like "restore the user's folder to a fresh default state every night."

--
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.

software, server, firewalls, porn blockers for lib by isc7 · 2004-08-12 03:46 · Score: 1

Simoniker, I have been developing software and others items for the public library in town. Card Catalogue only computers or logins for that purpose: Private Web software $100 plus $5 per client. Some setup and testing about $75. This software can be loaded on each public terminal or on a trusted staff computer that acts as a proxy server. Private Web stop all internet access but Windows updates, NAV updates, and the sites listed in a "White List". I have this software in car dealerships on tech computers, libraries, and other businesses who can restrict internet access down to a few sites. Best of all each site can be allowed or not one "click through" to go onward only one site. If you card catalogue uses Barne & Noble for descriptions. You can click through your site go to B&N but no where else. This save you the "content filtering" costs on each of these machines. Secondly we have a developed a "Firewall content Filtering Server" that you put in between the T1 line and the rest of the building to block spam, advertisements, pop ups, porn or other adult only things, email viruses, spyware and adware. Cost around $1500 server hardware, setup and software, etc. About $400 per year for updates after first year. The server also has Samba so it can be used as a shared file server for in house files or even an in house groupware of some kind. We also sell custom built PCs that the batch for the library were about $1250 for 2.8, 512, 40GB, 15" LCD, if I remember correctly. They were locked down by us first. As of yet none of them has ever needed Windows restored, even though they have been used almost solid for Patron's internet surfing for months now. You can respond privately if you wish at sales11 (at) iscnetwork.com Butch

SunRay is the answer by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:47 · Score: 0

http://wwws.sun.com/sunray/index.html

The Sun Ray ultra-thin client is a compact plug-and-work device that processes only user input and screen output. It is a "headless" device that is compatible with standard VGA monitors, designed to allow leverage of existing IT investments.

LTSP, thin clients & recycling by dan_leslie · 2004-08-12 03:54 · Score: 1

Our company is just starting to deploy LTSP-based thin client solutions. All in all we've found it to be *very* cool stuff. Definitely one of the factors that will make Linux more widely adopted for business/institutional users within the next 3-5 years.

We've found that one of the benefits of using a thin client solution -- especially for a library, school or non-profit -- is the possibility of reusing older hardware for additional terminals because of the minimal system requirements.

Check out this May /. article on this very issue:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/22/223 4258&tid=137&tid=187&tid=163

Disclaimer: we're a VAR for the company mentioned in the article (Symbio Technologies) which develops Linux-based thin client solutions. You can find their website here: http://www.symbio-technologies.com or call them --> phone numbers are on their site.

The guys at Symbio are heavily involved in the LTSP and K12LTSP communities and have LTSP based networks that have been running for 2+ years. They contacted us because they needed some local support (New York based) to offer extra hands, so we jumped on board. They have a web-based GPL'ed LTSP tool on SourceForge so you do not need to know any "under the hood" Linux stuff. They are telling me that they are about to release their newest release (based on LTSP 4.1) in a few weeks. Should make use of all of the features of LTSP 4.1 plus, lots more (workstation status, user status, subneting, remote desktops) in addition to support for: local storage, sound, local Windows desktops and/or apps, clustering, etc.

Food for thought: They recently deployed a 120+ terminal network for ~45K USD. Most of their deployments are 10-40 terminal systems that actually run mission critical apps. and are actually used by businesses as well as schools! They ONLY do LTSP deployments and have relationships with a LOT of big name companies (Including HP). They will help you out "off the clock" if you're looking into using LTSP.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
-Dan

Big money saving thought ... by bizitch · 2004-08-12 03:55 · Score: 1

I'm a big proponent of thin client computing - the only problem is that WYSE and others want a little too much money for the "thin" client ($300 and up!)

I was perplexed - until I found this

http://pxes.sourceforge.net/

Linux to the rescue! - this is a very tiny Linux distro which will turn any old piece o junk with either a bootable NIC (PXES) or a bootable CD - into a full blown thin client for X-Windows, ICA (Citrix) or RDP (Windows Terminal Services)

I suggest visiting a computer recycler/wholesaler and score some basic PII or PIII boxes and some monitors - Try and get a group of identical PC's - this will greatly assist in configuration.

Takes a little bit of patience to config/setup - but it works like a charm

--
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano

Windows XP doesn't have a Blue Screen of Death by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 03:59 · Score: 0

I use Windows XP on a daily basis in a production environment. I have never seen a blue screen. Not once. What specific problems and glitches are you referring to. Mabye you should avoid Dell Computers...

This is not to say I have never seen the BSOD on XP, but I can honestly say that over the past 6 Months I have not seen it once.

Dumb Terminals by Mithrandur · 2004-08-12 03:59 · Score: 1

Long ago, when I was a kid, my library had a dynix system accessed by serial dumb terminals. They were great. The almost never broke. There was nothing you could do to hijack them, because they were dumb terminals. Sure, they had monochrome green screens that displayed only text.

But really, you're looking for a card catalog replacement, not some sort of a data-processing badass.

If you can make a sound cost-benifit argument for graphical terminals, go with some sort of dedicated XServer. Most of the same advantages, and you get a mouse with pretty pictures.

--
vi is my shepard, I shall not font.

LTSP by tmillard · 2004-08-12 04:04 · Score: 0

I have not tryed it yet but The Linux Terminal Server Project appears nice.

HP 441 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:05 · Score: 0

HP recently came out with their 441 solution which might be another option to consider. It runs Mandrake Linux, and you can have 4 users working simultaneously using one CPU.

Obligatory URL -- http://h40058.www4.hp.com/products/desktops/441/te chspec.html

Re:HP 441 by Locutus · 2004-08-12 08:31 · Score: 1

I thought that was only available in Africa and only to very poor school systems. The story was that the school system which already purchased some for one school, was told that they can't purchase the 441 for any which aren't in the poorest of the poor areas.

LoB

--
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus

LTSP by macroslash · 2004-08-12 04:13 · Score: 1

I did an install of Linux Terminal Server for a small rural library a little less than 2 years ago. They went from a windows environment like you describe, a constant level of administration. I was able to use all of their old machines as terminals, the only expense as far as those go were bootable network cards.

The server was a simple $1500 box I estimate able to handle 15-20 web users without issue.

For the client side setup I customised a KDE desktop using Kiosk mode to lock down the desktop and the applications. I used Konqueror for the web browser due to the ease of locking it down with DCOP probes and Kiosk.

Administration of the system went to near zero. All the staff does on a daily basis is start and shutdown the client machines. Really. No one on staff even has root access.

The only real problems seen over the life of the system have been confusion due to the printing dialog in KDE. People ended up printing a whole doc instead of specific pages.

The project turned out very well and ended up with a very happy customer. Talk to your local linux users group, you should be able to find someone capable of building a similar system for you.

Our Office users are on Thin Clients by willardj · 2004-08-12 04:21 · Score: 1

We spend less than $200 per client. These are Neoware Capios. We also Use a similarly price unit made by wyse which is faster but doesnt have com ports.

Each server Compaq dl360 (dual 1GHz 2GB RAM) holds 25-50 users. 25 for office type folks running full desktop and 50 for shop floor machinists who arent as interactive.
pros:
1 server image that can be dupliacted.
Can easily lock down users really tight
Thin clients are quiet and last a long time.
Thin clients are small and quick to change out when service is needed. Although you will need a way to secure them from users think it is a full PC.
cons:
not really cheaper than desktops.
need good network infastructure.
Not suited for graphically intense applications.

Hopefully they've improved... by rcoleman15 · 2004-08-12 04:27 · Score: 1

I was working at the Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh back in 1999-2000 when they decided to try the "new" thin-client approach, for all the reasons you cite. The concept was brand new at the time, I believe. I remember a vice president (or some other big shot) from Sun coming to visit on the day we rolled them out.

Unfortunately, you could tell it was brand new technology. When you get a BSOD on a Win98 or XP machine, you spend XX minutes troubleshooting it and ask the patron to use another machine. When the thin client server goes out, ALL machines are down. And it really seemed like the thin client server was down a LOT. (I'm a librarian, not a sysadmin, so I'm not sure about the details of why they had so many problems.)

The numerous outages were a major source of frustration for front-line staff (librarians and clerks) as we would inevitably get complained to/yelled at every time while waiting for IT to take care of the problem.

The machines didn't run Windows but some proprietary Sun thing (sorry, can't remember) that no patrons were familiar with and always complained about.

The thin clients we used were web-only machines--no word processing, spreadsheets, etc.--which was another problem. The system you would get now would (hopefully) be (1) more stable and (2) more robust. I've since moved away from Pittsburgh, but I know that they were doing away with all the thin clients and getting Dell machines.

I suggest you contact the folks at eiNetwork [http://www.einetwork.net/] to get their opinions. They are the "IT department" for all the libraries in the Pittsburgh area, and they are the ones who actually ran the thin client system there.

Re: See also Byzantine OS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:37 · Score: 0

I would recommend another LFS thinclient solution: ByzantineOS .

This thing is really smarter than a "thin client" for a library situation on a budget. Basically it just loads up Mozilla and nothing else, but the secret is in how it does it.

Byzantine OS loads virtual drives of all its data into memory (a small footprint nonetheless) and then boots out of the memory space. The only time it accesses the media is to load the virtual drive, after that you can eject the boot disc. Why is this so smart? It completely removes the biggest bottleneck in a traditional thin-client network: the server. You don't need a $50,000 server to run all of the applications nor do you have the latency involved with X over a network. All apps are running on the local machine in memory so it's blazing fast.

This could probably be easily adapted to boot from a network instead of CD media. That way a client will load up a fresh copy of the OS and there is no writing of information to any disk media. No floppy, no hard drive, no CD-ROM, no server side profiles. You just have one cheap server with a copy of the disk in memory that shoots it over to a machine over the network when it boots. The autonomous client then gets a DHCP IP and it's on the network.

You could literally have an entire thin client network with only one disc drive: a cdrom drive in the server. Or better, just a USB memory stick and no disc drives.

I don't know about you, but this is extremely appealing and protective of sensitive information. It also removes almost all moving parts from the entire network. If you get fanless clients and server (VIA EPIA or Transmeta), there is literally only ONE moving part: a CD-ROM. Alternatively, the server could boot from a USB key drive and there are NO moving parts.

So here's my short list of additions for the Byzantine OS that would need to be implemented for a completely diskless, thin client network:

1. Boot from keydrive
2. Network boot
3. A network boot server that loads off a keydrive and serves the image to clients

use dual pc's from howard industries in laurel ms by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:37 · Score: 0

then use DeepFreeze from www.DeepFreezeusa.com and lock those machines down. That way you simply restart them when they hang, and they come back perfect every time. Thin clients are ok but there are really not necessary. Its cheaper just to set up some frozen pcs and forget them. Oh and remove the CDROM / Floppy drives from the pc's and disable any v isible serial and usb ports to keep folks from hacking.

hmm blue screen? by TeKn0wLeD-G · 2004-08-12 04:45 · Score: 1

the fact that you are having constant blue screen issues leads me to believe that you are not as technically gifted as you say you are. the simple solution would be to do proper installs of the systems in question and take preventative measure to prevent system issues such as spyware, viruses and other issues. a regular maintenance plan should do the trick and they can be automated so as to not remove you from your busy schedule.

Managed or thin, not much of a difference by davidwr · 2004-08-12 04:49 · Score: 1

Whether you want "thin clients" or a "managed client" boils down to 1) performance and 2) will you ever need to use a bare pc?

Assuming you won't every need the "bare pc," say, to run a Knoppix demo or whatever, you are back to performance.

If your thin clients, server, and network have enough performance so the entire network can boot after a power failure in only a few minutes, and not get bogged down if everyone's doing data-intensive tasks all at once, then go for it.

However, if that's not the case, consider a managed-client solution. IBM and other companies offer managed-client solutions for Windows. For Linux, it's as easy as running DHCP and having no locally-writable disk except for temporary files and log files. If a system gets trashed, re-image it and be done with it. Re-imaging can be automated, using a boot floppy to grab the image off of the network or local partition.

If you go with either approach though, I'd recommend having a primary and a backup for all server-based functions, including DHCP, file and print services, login services, etc. Put uninterruptable power supplies on all servers and at least one client.

On at least some of your clients, you'll want more than just a floppy:
People expect to be able to read and possibly write their CDs, USB devices, and camera-memory-cards. You'll also need a speaker jack for playing children's. To meet ADA requirements, you'll need that plus screen-reader software on at least one PC. The folks at the Center for Applied Special Technology can help you with accessibility issues.

Also - if you you go with plain old unmanaged clients, or even managed ones, be sure to have a way to isolate any computer that's exhibiting unusual behavior from the rest of the network, such as signs of a virus infection.

Oh, even though it's not normally part of a library's mission, it would be nice if you had one "full-fledged pc" that you let people boot their own OS on, and provided DHCP and Internet services to it. For security reasons, this box should be isolated from the rest of the library network.

I also assume that at least one workstation will be "uncensored" when adults are using it, and that this machine will have a screen that children passing by cannot see. If not, you'll need one. Not only is it the Right Thing To Do, but it will keep the ACLU off your backs.

--
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.

Library Software runs on Win only? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 04:58 · Score: 0

The one thing a lot of peoplw seem to be forgetting is that often libraries are expected to have several kid friendly software packages available. Sure wikipedia or google contain better information than say encarta, but the 8 year old doing a project on dinosaurs just wants to be able to type it in and instantly see a nice animated video or pictures etc. Thats the only real drawback of going with a 'nix clients, unless you have one cheap dell put aside specifically for this purporse.

Yes--I Ran a CyberCafe on Thin Clients by Slicker · 2004-08-12 04:58 · Score: 2, Informative

After a few initial glitches at my CyberCafe, LTSP-based thin clients ran flawlessly thereafter. Our main troubles were in printers jamming. Although we mainly ran KDE/Linux systems, even Windows Terminal Server ran more reliably (in a GNU/Linux-protected network using rdesktop on the clients).

My advice (inclusive of some flamebait) is the following:

*. First, if you need/want help contact the WSU Lug or me (smutz) on the #wsulug irc channel on freenode.net

1. Use LTSP (add a separate Windows Terminal Server and rdesktop, if you need Windows)
2. Gentoo, SuSE and Mandrake seemed to work best for various reasons. Gentoo is the very best, but takes a lot more work to get configured.
3. Use ReiserFS (but not on RedHat). Never mind all the anti-reiser FUD. I've been using Reiser for years on sometimes as many as 30 servers, six in one area with power outages at least once every two weeks. Reiser really is badly broken on RedHat, but has honestly been vastly more reliable than Ext3. I am running mostly Reiser but Ext3 on a few systems and the Ext3 systems are periodically corrupted after power outages or cable kicks...sometimes irrecoverably. We've repeatedly unplugged our Reiser-based systems and never had any corruption, except for a physical disk error, a bad disk controller, and an overheated system (due to a dead fan).
4. Do not standardize on Mozilla!! It is by a huge margin, the number one crashing and account-disabling application we've used in the Cafe. The latest versions of Konqueror can replace it very handily if you put a lot of work into configuration: installing all the Netscape pluggins and setting it to say it's Internet Explorer (latest version). On the other hand, FireFox (light version of Mozilla) is reasonably stable and works great without much work into it. Konqueror has the advantage that, when it does crash, it doesn't lock up the whole user account, as does Mozilla or Firefox. Konqueror just closes as where Mozilla-based browsers (like FireFox require superuser intervention to kill it and let the user keep working) The latest versions of Konqueror have pretty much done away with the last rendering problems and stability is pretty good. Remember: Even Mozilla only locks up one user account, and doesn't effect other users. With LTSP, you can just hit reset and login as a different user..
5. If you are going to let people do word processing, set OpenOffice to automatically save as Microsoft Word format. It'll save you and your users TONS of headaches...because they never remember, if you tell them... And get rid of KOffice.. As much as I like it, people really do need MS Office compatibility and it doesn't reasonably offer that, yet. And, make sure you install Microsoft Fonts and/or set the default font to something Microsoft Word has that is similar.. I forget what we are using...sorry.

I'd love to offer more help but don't want to post my contact info in an open forum. You can find me and others who know of me on the wsulug IRC channel on freenode.net

Matthew C. Tedder

You've already limited your options... by Yaztromo · 2004-08-12 05:03 · Score: 1

...by specifying that you want to run MS Office and MSIE.

There are only two platforms that run both, and that's Microsoft Windows and Apple's Mac OS X. And neither one is particularily well suited to thin-clients.

If you free yourself from these application restrictions, your options open up.

Yaz.

Tandy. I shit you not. by mlcolosimo · 2004-08-12 05:09 · Score: 0

Untill I graduated in 1999 my HS's library was still being completely run off of Tandy 486's. Circulation, card catalogue, ebscoHost, etc all powered by one little server. The thing was rock solid and rarely if ever went down.

OS by wlgordon · 2004-08-12 05:16 · Score: 1

Every Mac-using librarian I know seems to think the Macintosh operating system would work best in a public library setting. These are librarians familiar with both Windows and Macs.

An old style unix solution by TheLastUser · 2004-08-12 05:17 · Score: 1

Run the machines as diskless clients. Boot them from the network. All of the files are managed on a central server. All of the software flows from the central server, but the processes execute on the local host.

Adding machines is easy, you just set up the bios to boot net and add some config entrys on the server.

You could do it all with cheap x86 gear and linux.

Another possibility is to create a bunch of x terminals out of old used machines and then have the users log into the central server using xdmcp. This would be a lot more difficult to secure, so I would lean towards the previous plan, myself.

Another linux solution, would be to create a "kick start" (Red Hat) cd so that you could easily re-install machines.

How about pulling the hard drives from the machines and using a cdrom based distro like knoppix? That would be really easy. You just plop the latest version into the cdrom drive. Doesn't allow you to configure stuff, but... If you have specific custom software that you want to give to the users, just implement it as a web application and then the users can surf to your site.

Just be careful... by azipsun · 2004-08-12 05:18 · Score: 1

The library I used to work at used Citrix thin clients for a while and they caused us more grief than they were worth. To be fair, the server hardware we had was not great and our vendor was not the best and thin client solutions for Windows were still fairly new, so things are likely to be much better now.

The biggest advantage of thin client systems is in reduced administrative burden. You really don't need to touch the desktops ever. The biggest disadvantage is that if your server ever dies, none of your machines will work. (Some sort of fail over system is probably an option but is going to increase your costs.)

The hardware costs of thin clients and desktops are likely to be fairly similar. In theory, you won't need to replace the clients, so replacement costs may be lower. Software costs are unlikely to be affected. In general, you need a license for each client even though you end up only installing a single copy of the software.

I'd recommend actually going somewhere and trying it out. Make sure that they use the system for the same sort of things that you expect your system to do. How well thin clients handle extensive web surfing is going to be different from people using it for office applications.

mod down immediately by davidwr · 2004-08-12 05:32 · Score: 1

ewww gross Then again, it does remind you of some nightmare public-library computer-maintenance scenarios.

--
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.

Library - Thin Clients by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 05:36 · Score: 0

We use Alexandria software at our small private school library. It runs on Windows. There is a server/client set up where you have the main computer run the Alexandria server and that's where you enter data and don't let anyone else touch it. Then you have client computers where you can just have them run the Researcher part so all they can do is look up titles, etc. We use older boxen running NT4 for this as Researcher doesn't have a huge hardware requirement. For the most part, Alexandria is good. There are a few gui items that are clumsy, but it is far better than the Athena software we used before.

I did look for a Linux equivalent, but unfortunately didn't find it and since we had a time-pressure, we went with Alexandria. Hope this helps. - Malke

LemonLINK Thin Client project in San Diego by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 05:37 · Score: 0

Lemon Grove Middle School in the San Diego area of
California has had an exemplary educational technology program for many years now, which center around the use of a thin client PC solution. Lemon Grove is a public MS that mainly serves low income and minority students yet through great leadership and community
effort--which have led to grants and every IT company throwing free stuff at them--they have built up their own telecom infrastructure. They not only provide WiFi internet access at their school for all their students, but they also provide free basic broadband service for all of the students IN THEIR HOMES who are in their school district. Just by doing a quick Google search I came across the following links about their project LemonLINK, but I'm sure with a bit more digging you can find much more.

http://www.edtechcases.info/schools/lemongrove/l em ongrove.htm

http://www.lgsd.k12.ca.us/lemonlink/About.htm

Re:LTSP for Public Libraries == godsend by tico26 · 2004-08-12 05:39 · Score: 1

While I don't administer a library, I deal with lots of non-employees (as well as lots-of-handholding-required CEO types) using various LTSP-based terminals that I administer. It works beautifully! Most motherboards I've found now support PXE booting, so without having to buy BootROMs for any NICs, or buying custom terminals, or having a floppy drive hidden inside the case I can have very cheap terminals. It's fast and easy to administer. If you haven't set up a server system before, use Mandrake/RedHat/SuSE just to get it up and running. That being said, it's insanely nice to have Debian's "apt-get install anything" and have software "just work" instead of chasing down various RPMs. I use Debian/testing (Sarge) in many production environments quite nicely. Also, invest the time into customizing a lightweight stripped-down desktop environment (like icewm) with only the programs listed that you want the user to run. You don't want the user to have flexibility. If you absolutely *must* have MS Office, Wine is decent, Crossover makes it easy to install/manage. But all you're doing yourself is opening yourself up to potential problems.

Whitebox Linux and Libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 05:53 · Score: 0

The Whitebox linux distribution is a port of RedHat ES and is sponsored by the Beauregard Public Library in Louisiana. I understand that several libraries are using the WB clients as public terminals with no problems and minimum maintenance requirements. Linux is very popular with young people. There is an abundant supply of young college students who can set up the system for you at nominal cost, so you can learn the operating system yourself as time permits. You might want to contact John Morris or Vicki at the library for more information.

Windows XP Configuration by cyrl · 2004-08-12 06:03 · Score: 1

Since this has become a largely Linux thread (which I would prefer) here is a tip to lock down Windows XP Professional Only start | run | gpedit.msc gives you a ton of things to change

You're right, Bert by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 06:04 · Score: 0

native X11 is the way to go, not vnc and not LTSP. You'd need a gui that is rendered, though, and that can be had from ViewTouch. Oh, and that would make the software touch-driven, too. The ViewTouch X terms are something like $199, I'd guess. You're in small company, though. Practically nobody understands the value of native X and its performance when using a remotely rendered gui.

I am a Linux Administrator at UNI Library by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 06:22 · Score: 0

I am the Linux Administrator for the Rod Library at University of Northern Iowa http://www.lib.uni.edu/ We currently run 2 different floors with a custom Linux solution I created. We also run another 2 floors with the standard Windows XP with policies. Once I walked away from the Linux workstations after I set them up I have not returned. (I did have to replug one network cable that was bumped out of the machine) I used qvwm (so it looks like the other Windows terminals) and configured Firefox to look like IE. We do it this way so it is much simpler on the patrons, they always get the same "look" when they get on one of our computers. Also we do not have a login screen, the computers just boot directly into a usable interface. The desktops are empty and they must click on the start menu. After this they can choose only a few options. (i.e. Internet, Calculator, and a few other custom programs for other departments) So far we are only testing the Linux workstations on the top 2 floors. But I believe we will begin to migrate the Windows workstations to Linux. The reason why we decided to test Linux was because we did not have enough money to buy new workstations to replace the Pentium II 400's that Linux is currently running on. So I developed a custom solution that now runs just as quick as our Pentium 4 1.6's. I realize thin-clients are nice, I have developed thin-clients also, but if you do not have administration experience with thin-clients or Linux. I would not suggest using a thin-client solution unless you are willing to invest in someone who does have experience. I read you also didn't want to create your own Linux solution. I am currently working on a library public workstation distribution which will be easily configurable and installable. It will only have the most used options available, if you would like to email me any questions you have, I can give you pages of documentation of things I have tried and solutions I have come up with. My email is eshook at uni dot edu. If anyone else would like to contact me with questions feel free, I would like to help as many people as I can.

Eric Shook

Regina Public Library... by Qybix · 2004-08-12 06:26 · Score: 1

I worked with a computer firm here in Canada that was blindly obsessed with running WinFrame from Citrix. I was asked to create a front end for the RPL and their thin clients that would only allow them into a web browser, and charge them for anything that they tried to print... It was horrible! Here are a few of the things that I learned:

1) Thin clients are reliable and easy to replace, but are no where near as good as even a stripped down machine.

2) Unless the genie of the lamp has answered Citrix's dreams - thin client servers are still a very weak link. Expect less than 1 month of up-time per server in your farm.

3) It was very hard to reliably program under an os that had no idea who or how many were using it. Who sent that print job? Annonymous user (#18) or Annonymous user (#643)? Are you going to give each person a distinct login?

4) It took 10mins online to find a script that would give me adminstrator rights...

5) It was windows based, and thus anyone could infect it with a virus but intentionaly clicking on an attachment, or going to a website.

If you are thinking of going thin for a library; don't. Just buy the machines for $255.00 at wallymart. That's cheaper anyway and you'll get better performance.

--
Qybix ----- I do not have a belief system; I'm an Anti-theist and proud of it! Saying that not believing in anything i

We use SunRays by RevAaron · 2004-08-12 06:31 · Score: 1

Over at my library, we use Sun's SunRays. They make for a OK solution. At first, I was quite excited about it, but the school's IT department implemented them poorly. The biggest detail in this regard is their choice to use CDE for the desktop environment, rather than using fvwm95 or even KDE and GNOME. We used CDE for a couple of years, and then ITSS finally got around to installing KDE and making it the default option for the new incoming students.

Under CDE, the students hated them. And a lot still do, with that reputation becoming entrenched. And with the switch to KDE, the reasons the students hated them changed, although there were still a lot of negative feelings toward them. CDE is ... CDE, and very unfamiliar to your average users of Windows and Mac OS. But there weren't problems with speed. But when they put KDE 2.x on there (not sure if they are running 3 now) people knew how to use it for the most part, but things got incredibly slow. KDE is slow, CDE was pretty fast. On top of that, KDE has had a lot of flaky little features, the most common is not being able to log-out of the session, but there's a lot of parts of KDE that seem to crash randomly. That confuses students and patrons. These people aren't Linux users at home- when the logout button doesn't work in KDE, they don't know enough to log-in to the SunRay next to them and kill the Xsession. But then again, they shouldn't have to.

Considering that, it's not surprising to find that the relatively small number of real PCs are always in use, people checking to see if there's a PC open before resorting to a SunRay.

The price... it really isn't all that good. The models we use, The SunRay 1g, costs $360 now from Sun. Not horrible, but then you also have to consider the very big and expensive SunRay servers in that. When we got them, they cost a whopping $699. This was 4 years ago, but even back then you could get a low-end PC for that. That didn't include the 18" LCD displays either, but that's the same on any computer. Though, back then, the prices on the LCDs were very good- when this was all happening, I remember hearing that some school (in Michigan?) was buying a bunch of SunRays from Sun just to get the huge discount on the LCD displays, which they were using with their "real" PCs. The SunRay's lived in a closet somewhere in their original shipping boxes.

--

Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad

Thin Client Solutions For Libraries? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 06:32 · Score: 0

I am running Windows server 2003 with a 25 user terminal service at my place of business. We are a private company, but I think my experience will help you.
I happen to favor the thin clients. I use the Wyse 1200LE for the basic users. It is a no frill unit with 2 USB ports. For my users that need serial or parallel ports I use the Wyse 1125SE. They come with good quality keyboard and mice, the only thing I can't hook up to a thin client is a USB scanner. Wyse says that there is a limmintation of the RDP protocol that won't let a Scanner communicate properly using USB over RDP. To double check I am looking into other thin clients to see if they report the same limitations or if another brand can support USB scanners. The thin clients are small so they are easy to conceal and secure. There are no drives on it so peoply can't use it to install or take away information on a drive. Also with Win serv 2k3 you have very good control over users ability to do anything using the group policies. I can see where thin clients can be a big help to your environment. With a single point of management you only have to install anti-virus, firewall, proxies, webcontrol software on one system. Now you may have to double check with your software vendors for compatibility with terminal server and thin clients, but most of the major software companies support it no problem.
Sincerely,

Anon C.

Might be some Sun sales guy gave him snake oil by 0x0d0a · 2004-08-12 06:33 · Score: 1

He might not be doing this on purpose. It could be that some Sun guy spent time talking about how "reliable" Sun hardware is and how "risky" x86 hardware is (reliability FUD is the *favorite* tactic of overpriced vendors -- Oracle, Sun, Apple for a while, so forth). It used to be used against Microsoft by Sun, now Microsoft uses it against Linux. It's very hard to come up with a good set of hard numbers to disprove a claim -- of course, it's also hard to prove such a claim, but usually people make a claim from authority ("I'm experienced in this area, and...")

Since employees usually get punished for a system screwing up and not rewarded much (heck, maybe their budget gets *cut*) for saving the company money, the very *thought* of unreliability, no matter how unfounded, will drive them away from a system.

Because of the employee evaluation structure, reliability claims are one of the primary ways that you can drive a wedge between the interests of an employee and a company. Salesmen know this. This would not be the first guy to be suckered by Sun or a similar vendor.

--
May we never see th

Don't use ibuypower.com by Jesse+Becker · 2004-08-12 07:05 · Score: 1

I'd go somewhere besides ibuypower.com for your shopping. I ordered a laptop from them earlier this year, and it was a disaster.

Two days after placing the order, they lowered the price. I called them on it, and pointed out that I could cancel the order, resubmit one with the lower price, get rush shipping, and thus get it sooner, and for less money. They then informed me that I wasn't eligble for one of the online discounts, but did reduce the price a bit.

When it actually arrived (somewhat slowly), the DIMM was bad. After a few hard freezes, I ran memtest86, and it threw about one memory error every ten seconds during the tests. There is no reason this should ever have passed their QA department (and they make a big deal about their "burn-in processes").

Getting it replaced required sending back the entire laptop (why can't they do an advance parts RMA, like every other sane vendor?). It was on their dime, but it took a week to get a return waybill, and another week for the laptop to get back to them. The memory replacement should take all of 10 minutes (if you do it slowly), plus another hour or so to test. After more than a week, I called for an update, and the service techs had not even looked at it yet. They had both the laptop and my money.

At this point, I told them to keep it, demanded a refund, waited on hold for an hour (it was an 800-number, so they paid for it, and I don't mind too much). When the amount was still charged to my credit card a week later, I had to sic my credit card company on them to get it back.

So, don't use ibuypower.com.

Re:Don't use ibuypower.com by munboy · 2004-08-13 01:38 · Score: 1

see, i have bought at least 4 desktops from them and i have always had good luck. they don't bulid the laptops themselves themselves u know. they just slap thier name on it.

Muneer
Re:Don't use ibuypower.com by Jesse+Becker · 2004-08-14 15:20 · Score: 1

they don't bulid the laptops themselves themselves u know. they just slap thier name on it.

So they managed to botch it even though they didn't actually have to do anything? That's even worse...

k-12 linux terminal server by wolf_m16 · 2004-08-12 07:22 · Score: 1

just buy refurbished dell 700mhz machines (for 149 a pop a year ago (w/98 which you could sell?). get one dual 370/1GHZ with a good amount of ram and install the k-12 linux terminal server distribution.

this would provide a desktop environment to each of these machines that is quite secure, as well as very easy to put back to its original settings (REBOOT).

Xterminals? by fetrow · 2004-08-12 07:22 · Score: 1

Whatever happened to plain old Xterminals?

We added a pile of these in the 90's in a major medical library and hospital. They are still in use (the library also has a bank of PC's and a bank of Macs but those require a little more effort to get access to so the Xterms get the bulk of the quick use for catalog and web browsing).

The models we chose had PC monitors, keyboards, memory and mice for easy parts replacement. No hard drive of course, just a ROM.

two-headed solution? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 08:23 · Score: 0

I work in a copy center kind of place (think Kinko's but better) in new york city and we recently started switching some of our full computers to be Internet-Only stations. however, they are still windows or OSX installations which allows for the possibility of users messing with stuff. I've been slowly pushing forth the idea of a thinclient setup for the Internet only stations.

my input to this whole thing is regarding the word/powerpoint etc vs bare browser-only machines. a logical setup would be to have a set of maybe 6 thinclient based internet only terminals, for those who want to check their email and be on their way, and 3 or 4 reasonably secure, customized but functional full OS systems for anyone who wants to sit and write term papers or presentations or what have you. this way, there are enough computers to satisfy everyone and keep people moving.

for the thinclients, many of the solutions already discussed are pretty good, so i wont go into those.

for the full OS workstations, i've found a pretty much equal distribution between Mac and PC users, so 2 OSX Macs (iMacs? i hate the ikea lamp look myself) and 2 PCs would probably be ideal. create limited-permission accounts, and you're set.

-christina

one word DEEPFREEZE, google it. by mtg_collector · 2004-08-12 08:38 · Score: 1

saves the state of the pc. just reboot the pc to return it to its ready state. even survives formatting the hard drives.

Re:one word DEEPFREEZE, google it. by gregor-e · 2004-08-13 04:55 · Score: 1

Absolutely. Faronic's Deep Freeze is the way to go. You can give patrons complete access as an admin on the box to do whatever they want. Download, install, infect with trojans or virii - it doesn't matter. To revert, just press the reset button and all is well. Very convenient.

neoware thin clients by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 08:49 · Score: 0

there is also a company called neoware www.neoware.com that sells thin clients, that connect to a windows terminal server via RDP. These are great, we have a few as a testbed where I work. They are easy to configure, they dont have hard drives or floppy drives or cd drives - they'd be perfect for a library. The website can provide pricing, but whether you go with neoware or sun rays, definitely go with thin clients.

Tamper-proof web stations by Californicator · 2004-08-12 09:26 · Score: 1

I've beenehaving fun with the bootable Linspire Live CD http://www.linspire.com/ (used to be called Lindows). It looks and smells like Windows XP, but if Linux based. It includes Mozilla, OpenOffice, etc. The main virtue is that it's entirely unbreakable. It runs directly from the CD, making it impossible to corrupt it, infect it, or damage the OS in any way. The downside is that it can't easily be customized. But, after booting, you could always walk up to the machine with a Flash drive and run a script to apply your organizations customizations to the copy runningin memory.

Veicon Technology by qseep · 2004-08-12 09:37 · Score: 1

My company specializes in exactly what you are looking for. Veicon Technology provides thin-client solutions to libraries, hospitals and hotels, but mainly libraries. Our package includes a server which sits at your library, and all the terminals connect to it via RDP or ICA. They display a "start page" with links to your catalog and databases. From there you can also enter the V-Link application, which has a launch pad for applications, such as IE, Netscape/Mozilla, and MS Office.

The terminals are reset when you start them - users can't install things on them. They can save files in a temporary folder on the server, or to floppy drives or USB flash drives. The user has very limited permissions on the server, and all their files are erased when they log out. Thus, no viruses can spread.

There is far less maintenance involved than with PCs, and it is mostly done by our support team.

I'm an engineer, not a salesperson, so if you want to find out more, contact our sales team.

What about it? by smiff · 2004-08-12 10:16 · Score: 1

Since English has no third-person-singular gender-unspecific pronouns

Doesn't "it" fit this definition?

Someone across the street bought a newspaper, and then it put the newspaper over its head so that it wouldn't get its hair wet."

It may sound rude, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Look at KOHA: in use in New Zealand by cheros · 2004-08-12 10:26 · Score: 1

Have a look at www.koha.org. Not only is that a decent Open Source library package, it's also written in a way that allows you to access it with a standard web browser. So all you need is a box with a web browser - pretty thin idea ;-).

It also makes it academic which OS you use, Mac OSX, Linux, Solaris, even (urgh) Windows - with decent standards compliant code (and I mean OPEN Standards, obviously) it shouldn't matter.

Good luck!

--
Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.

Sunray on Opteron by monk · 2004-08-12 10:39 · Score: 1

Also you are about to be able to run 10 Sunray clients off of one dual opteron box and run Linux programs on top of Solaris if you want...
Cheaper, more flexible and still managed at one point. If you want fail-over, buy two servers and configure them for high availability. And you can't beat Sun Support, nohow.
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5108158.html

Disclaimer: I work for Sun

--
[-- Trust the Monkey --]

DELL and NOVELL by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 10:52 · Score: 0

Why get rid of your DELL systems... and go ahead and keep XP.
NOVELL ZENWORKS and a clean image... then shoot out policies at login or bootup, and image the computer from a local zen partition (or remote mount via PXE) every day, bootup, or screwup.
ZENWORKS = distributed printing, application delivery, and security on the local machine via DLU and XP policies...
Or use a linux solution as the server and imaging.
As for software that you dont have a site or network lic for just associate to a user or workstation -- BUT DONT INCLUDE IN IMAGE - keep that as clean as XP, office, adobe reader, and maybe some codecs.

Using ISIR to prevent PC config changes by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 11:09 · Score: 0

Voom Technologies has a hardware based solution that they have used at public libraries to prevent users from changing or installing anything on the library computers. It's called Instant Save Instant Restore.

The users may install software, change configurations, etc., but the next time it boots, all of those changes disappear as it boots from a known good config only. It does this by intercepting all of the hard drive writes and storing those deltas seperately.

The intended use is for being able to instantly (1 second) restore your system back to a known good point in time but when it is used for public kiosks, like in libraries, an optional config is to force the PC to boot only from the stored approved configuration, which the admin can define.

And since it is OS independent, it works equally as well on Linux as it does on Windows.

Comments re thin client tech for a public library by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 12:14 · Score: 0

If your only buying systems for a single library, I'd advise against going with a thin client solution. Few years ago a public library I was working at bought into Citrix Metaframe. We tried both thin client devices and PCs running the client software.

The problem we ran into was plug in related. To allow users maximum functionality (email, multimedia, other applications) the security on the units had to be reduced. This is the main drawback of a centralized thin client solution:

on a regular PC if a user manages to hack the system and change the browser home page to a porn site then one computer is effected.

With a thin client it's possible to have ALL of the computers or thin clients your library branch be affected.

Since both bandwith and processing power is relatively cheap these days, use your ERATE funding to buy a T1 and buy a group of Windows PCs with Fortress installed.

eMacs + NetBoot = thin client by Thu25245 · 2004-08-12 14:45 · Score: 2, Informative

eMacs (or any recent Mac for that matter) also support NetBoot. Basically, this lets you use a Mac as a thin client. Each Mac will boot from an OS image on a server (Apple XServe) which would allow easy administration. The cost: a little more expensive than standalones or true thin clients, but not horribly so.

Best of all, it's easy. OS X and OS X server are easy to learn for non-techies.

The Mac OS, as mentioned above, also supports Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc. Event IE, though its a little out of date.

Re:requirements are contradictory and a bit confus by sumdumass · 2004-08-12 15:16 · Score: 1

i think it will still be expensive as hell. in the eula they want you to buy a copy for each thin client accessing it. Look for the section covering terminal services.

If it were me, i would just install one copy and let it go at that. Being that it is for another organization (even if it is a charity) I would be concerned about thier liability if the license was in violation and someone sold them out.

You have to watch that the used licenses are not oem, wich are tied to a computer part and once installed tied to the enitire computer. you also need to watch out for coperate edition licenses or site licenses. They are tied to particular companies and aren't supposed to be transfered from that organization. If you are using these types of licenses, then it is probably going to riase dome problems if you get an audit.

I had a company (against my judgement)decide to get the volume discount with microsoft office corperate edition and a site licenes for windows XP. They have since then upgraded half of thier computers from 1.5 gig gateways to 3.2 gig dells and are stuck removing the copies of XP and office when they sold the old boxes. (gateway didn't include the oem versions of the software because of the site license they help sell) what set off the remove everytihg was someone tryed to reactivate office on a different computer and told guuy on the phone they were selling the old computers. This prompted a visit from microsoft. and they even had issues with selling some of the systems to employies so they could work from home.

userful by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 15:32 · Score: 0

Don't know if anyone has mentioned these guys, but Userful offer some pretty decent Linux-based public access terminals. Saw them at at conference last year and was fairly impressed.

Nope, don't work for them myself.

Practical Assistance. by Telaman · 2004-08-12 16:23 · Score: 1

Phatlipmojo, Try this:- http://minilop.net/OnlineNW I hope you find this in amongst all the extraneous crap.

--
Regards to all.

DiscoverStation: "Zero client" system for Libs by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 16:25 · Score: 0

You may want to investigate DiscoverStation. It allows 10 monitors and keyboards to plug into a single ordinary PC, combining the best of PC with the best of thin client (and more affordable than both). It also is designed specifically for libraries. Here are a few relevant links:

A review of this product in June 2004 Computers in Libraries Magazine
Flash Demos of the product
It also appears to include extra features like PC reservation, automatic clean up, time management, etc.

Univeristy Library by Saan+NZ · 2004-08-12 16:56 · Score: 1

I'm a helldesk/support person in Thin Client environment in a University Library, I got say that they are pretty good, don't even have to leave my seat for anything. We run Windows CE.NET (ugh, not my choice) 120 HP thin clients, spread over 6 servers, all logging in via a round robin system. It handles the load well. The only real problem we have had was when one of the servers busted a PSU fan

Re:Univeristy Library by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-13 13:26 · Score: 0

how about citrix over the thin clients - terminal servers

K12 LTSP by SirKron · 2004-08-12 17:37 · Score: 1

www.k12ltsp.org. Cannot get any easier. Tell squid to use an upstream (usually ISP provided) filtering proxy and you are done.

Re:requirements are contradictory and a bit confus by SeaFox · 2004-08-12 19:31 · Score: 1

Why not a split solution then? One probelm with free internet access is people will come in off the street and stay on for a looong time. And typing a paper can tie up a machine that could be used to serve 3-4 "quick internet patrons" in the same amount of time.

At my library, the internet terminals and the word processing computers are separate. That makes a lot of sense I feel.

Internet experience is more the browser than the OS. At my library, the browser is a public kiosk style browser. The machines may be Windows computers, and the window may say "Internet Explorer", but the browsing experience is nothing like IE. Why expose those machine to risk on the net?

Take the "Internet" terminals, run a stable, secure linux distro with Mozilla or a full featured broswer built for use in such situations.

The separate "office" machine can run something stable with low eye-candy overhead, say Win2000. Add on MS Office. Now we have our familiar Windows experience for the other stuff But NOT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS. Keep them on a separate lan or a subnet off the internet connection. Access to printers, but not viruses and spyware.

thin clients in small librarys by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-12 20:04 · Score: 0

I have helped the local library setting up a small network with four a server and four thin clients. The server runs "Skolelinux", a Debian taylored to be fit for scools in Norway. Se Debian-edu for details about hardware spesifications. The emploiees ab public are very content with the network.

Terminals per resident ratio by SgtChaireBourne · 2004-08-12 22:00 · Score: 1

poot, which cities and libraries were those with so few network terminals? Yes, some libraries will have only a few stations. That may be enough or it may not be depending on the demand. Most I've seen have many more.

I visit quite a few libraries that have excellent ratios. My favorite one has only 5 (all linux, no thin client), but since it's for a small village and the usage is spread evenly through the day, that's usually enough. On the other hand, I've seen libraries for large cities with only 5 or 6 terminals and you often have to book a week in advance for a 30 minute session. I've also seen a few libraries with more than 70 - 100 public terminals in the cities.

Now by available to you mean physically present or by actually up-and-running? Some friends' libraries had stations present, but usually a good percentage were down at any given time with blue screens or such. Wiping MS and replacing it with Mandrake or Debian or Fedora gave more uptime (== better service) and reduced maintenance staff loads (== better service) and reduced stress on regular staff (== better service).

Several libraries I visit have a large number of public terminals. Some even have some semi-public (members only or students only etc). Most have legacy hardware, either their own from when the Windows NT/2k sickness spread or else from donations or dumpster diving. The latter usually choose to run linux tuned for the old hardware. The former usually end up running linux when they find that MS-Windows is too labor intensive to maintain and has a lot of down time. One site wiped MS-Windows from 70 public terminals and replaced it with a locally customized debian. Their MS-Windows geeks still have MS-Windows on some of the staff machines, but are starting to gumble at even that : their 70 linux machines require less maintenance (especially corrective) than 5 MS-Windows machines.

Anything that improves uptime and reduces the load on staff improves service. Anything else should be chucked.

--
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.

Dell Thin Clients by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-13 01:44 · Score: 0

I used to be Level 2 support for Dell Thin clients. The units themselves were made by a company called WYSE. WYSE is the company who makes most of the Thin Clients in the world, and other company's just stick their name on them.

That said the Dell Thin Client program was a failure. After 6 months from launch I was the only person left (in the world) to support this program. Nobody at Dell or WYSE was around to help, but we had the support contract for 3 years. About 2 years into that contract I quit that place, and since then I am guessing those customers are just screwed.

Ok enough ranting.

I would advise against Thin Clients. They can have many frustrating problems, that you won't be able to fix without support. Whereas on PC's you should be able to fix these much easier.

Also one note is that most people at library like saving things to floppy, or even USB sticks now. And while there is support for these devices on thin clients, it will only create headaches for you.

So my suggestion is to go with cheap pc's, rather than thin clients.

$0.02

Check out the library solution from Sirsi. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-13 04:47 · Score: 0

I don't mean this to be an advertisement. It does fit the requested need. Thin clients are the way to go. I am seriously thinking of doing this for my house where I have four desktops, and, I have to play admin all the time. Now, that there is a beta for the linux platform, it may become reality real soon. This company has the librarian s/w and Sun thin clients that I have seen demo'ed as a complete solution. http://www.sirsi.com From Sun's public web site, http://sun.com here's a "building block" of 20 SunRays: Order two and you have "failover" and "load balancing" This includes the monitor and sun ray all in one. Sun Ray 150 Building Block Bundle of 20 Sun Ray 150 Ultra-Thin Clients and 1 Sun Fire V210 Server w/ 2 1.06-GHz UltraSPARC IIIi Cu Processors & 4-GB (4 x 1-GB DIMMS) Memory, Sun Ray Server Software 2.0 with 1 20 Seat License & 25 Smart Cards extra Package of 25 Payflex Smart Cards Subtotal: $21,160.00 Initial costs may be approximately the same as a PC solution. But, factor in cost of required Microsoft protection software, administration, down time from viruses, and malicous software, and the differences are financially appealling. BTW, you don't need the smartcards to do hot desking where the user's sessions can follow them to another sunray, upon login.

Security/Virus solutions by kaneo · 2004-08-13 05:03 · Score: 1

How important is your Data? FBI recently reported study in 2003 82% of businesses affected by virus resulting in $200B in losses. OEM answer? More Software. Hardware solution is available for all and OEM will not adopt. VOOM ISIR provides ONE SECOND recovery. Even with complete meltdown! Multiple save points to save you from others and yourself. Have much more to say. Welcome comments. Kaneo

"They" should be right anyway by z0 · 2004-08-13 09:05 · Score: 1

The equivalent of they is actually attested in writing as far back as the 1300s in English, and some who study Old English and Anglo-Saxon beleive that it was also the common use. If one remembers that it is usually the most common use at a particular point in time (among those who would be literate) that eventually gives rise to a "proper" literary use, then one has no problem figuring out that when the common usage diverges from the literary use, the literary one will eventually change too. Given this view, one could argue that the "proper" form was chosen incorrectly anyway, and that the common usage never converged on the "proper" one. The literary usage will change, but because there is a record to refer back to, it takes longer (which also explains English spelling, but that's another issue...).

Yes, I intentionally misused the parentheses. It's more intuitive than the "proper" usage. Deal with it. All y'all can't stand that can pay attention to 'em'all who can. :-)

Paper about thin clients at Footscray Library by Kylie · 2004-08-13 22:00 · Score: 1

Hi,

I'm from Computerbank in Victoria, Australia. We give away Linux computers to needy people and groups using donated technology. We have recently undertaken a Linux thin client trial at the Footscray Library. We have written a comprehensive paper about our experiences. The paper can be found at http://doc.vic.computerbank.org.au/projects/

The project has been very successful and demonstrates that Linux can be used as a low cost solution for deploying 'basic needs' public access networks.

y'all, they, gotten by bodrell · 2004-08-14 04:11 · Score: 1

Are "ain't" or "ya'll" grammatically incorrect, or a grammatically legitimate part of a non-standard dialect of English?

Well, "ya'll" is most certainly incorrect by any standard--it's a contraction for "you all" and is spelled "y'all."
But that's a spelling problem, not grammatical. My own pet peeves about modern spelling: "its" should always have an apostrophe, even in the possessive form (not just "it is"). And people need to learn that plurals DON'T take an apostrophe. I can't even count the number of times I've seen something like "Ham and egg's--$4.00."

I completely agree with you about "they" being used as a singular, gender-neutral pronoun. It's what I generally use, even though I know the grammarians don't like it.

And to pry the lid off another can of worms, there are striking differences between American English and English in the rest of the world. In the US, we use the word "gotten" but in the UK it no longer exists--instead of saying "Network TV has gotten pretty bad" it's "Network TV has got pretty bad." (As an aside, try to translate "get" into any other language. The word will usually have ten different translations, depending on context.)

--
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar

no linux? by xpyr · 2004-08-16 05:17 · Score: 1

Well you arent gonna get much of an answer then here. Most /.er's can only suggest that. And there is no longer much of an option in terms of having a thin client option. That was only in use when pc's were ineffective when it came to cost. But now they're cheap enough that you no longer need to actually look at a thin client/server option.

--
My Gawd WTF...

Tax Dollars? by solios · 2004-08-16 08:23 · Score: 1

More like grants and donations.

I left out the bit about the dumpster diving.

Pulled twenty Rays, but only five mice and four keyboards. Been waiting on someone to reverse engineer the protocol so I can put them to use. :P

Re:http://pxes.sf.net by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-25 16:30 · Score: 0

I think that PXES is a better (and simpler) solution.
You can be testing PXES in your environment in just 10 minutes, download PREBUILT ISO image (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/pxes/pxes-0.9- 1PB.iso?download), burn and boot.

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Thin Client Solutions For Libraries?

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