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Longhorn's Copy Protection Standard
hype7 writes "The Register is reporting that Microsoft have attempted to force a last-minute CD protection standard on the recording industry in order to ship it in Longhorn. From the article: "Any such deal would see Microsoft support 'an industry-wide copy control platform' built in to its next-generation Longhorn operating system, with the computer giant instructing labels that the compatible secure CDs must contain additional multimedia content, such as bonus tracks, 'as a quid pro quo for adding effective [DRM] into the consumer experience'". It looks like everyone except the consumer is going to win on this one - Microsoft controls the secure format, the RIAA gets a secure format, and the consumer loses all their rights for the "quid pro quo" of a bonus track."
In other news, Microsoft to offer computer training packages on Herding Cats.
Seems there was something within the last month where Microsoft's Windows Media advances on big media content were spurned.
"We're calling together a representative coalition of the industry to plan a possible meeting to discuss whether further consideration of your offer is necessary. Not that we're worried about you getting a cut of our cut, but we're all insane with greed and want to be sure we don't let anyone dictate our destiny to us in the same way we have for decades to consumers. Now if you'll excuse me I have several new acts to screw, I mean, negotiate standard industry contracts with."
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
All this crippling of Windows takes a lot of time. Besdies, DRM is much better than WinFS.
Forget the RIAA, support your local garage band.
...richie - It is a good day to code.
Copy protection would be the best gift MS could give to the open-source movement.
95% of all windows boxes must contain 100% pirated software.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
Does this mean that alternate OS's such as Linux and OS X could be consider encryption circumvention devices under the DMCA and upcoming Uber-DMCA's in the USA and around the world? This of course assumes that Microsoft's protection scheme is Windows only. And I think that's a safe bet.
...why am I not concerned about M$'s SECURITY being cracked in short order?
.. all mentioned in the same article?
Whoa, let the flamefest commence!
We imagine Apple won't be willing to play ball on this front.
Likely not, but what if the files are DMR-locked (somehow) to only play with a Longhorn-capable client? Reverse engineering would go against the DMCA likely.
Trolling is a art,
Only one copy protection mechanism to overcome, and then it's time to go back to freely backing up you data again.
Sure, we also gain a standardized copy protection format which will be tuned not to break things like some existing copy protections *cough* Starforce *cough*.
And...standardization is good, just a single standard to bypass if we want to make backups instead of having to learn how to bypass multiple protections.
Sure, call me a pirate, but when want to play games on my laptop, I don't want to have to tote the CD around, I'd much mount the disc image to a virtual drive so I don't have to tote a breakable CD for every game I might play while traveling.
If they can't secure the code on the CD what makes you think they can secure the CD?
Why do customers want to upgrade to Longhorn? I seem to keep losing reasons, or never had them in some cases.
-b
It does matter, encryption works the same way. It isn't unbreakable but hard to do so. It keeps everyone and their brother from doing something or looking at your private e-mail. It keeps out the ones who either are too stupid or whatnot from getting past. There will always be exceptions. *shrug*
...and how is this going to stop me from jacking the sound out to the sound in on my sound card, recording a wav file, then compressing it to mp3?
Since copy-protected discs are not standard CDs, Apple Computer says they are not meant to be played on its products. In addition, repairs required to undo damage caused by such discs may not be covered by its warranties.
Apple designs its CD drives to support media that conforms to (published Compact Disc) standards. Therefore, any attempt to use nonstandard discs with Apple CD drives will be considered a misapplication of the product. Under the terms of Apple's one-year limited warranty, AppleCare Protection Plan, or other Apple Care agreements, any misapplication of the product is excluded from Apple's repair coverage.
Some copy-protected audio discs are causing Mac OS computers to start to a gray screen. In some cases, the discs will not easily eject from the computer.
Yes, I have RTFA. Yes, I have a girlfriend. Yes, I'm new here. And no, I don't want a free iPod.
I think the submitter is confused--they're supposed to have to give us something extra for the DRM, which means they admit that it's cumbersome.
Now then, the part I object to is that we don't have much choice about whether this bargain is agreeable or not--it's take it or leave it, with probably no way for us to choose no DRM at all.
Of course, I would expect that it will be swiftly cracked, and I doubt they'll be able to fix it any more than they can with CSS, DMCA be damned.
The CDs are still going to have regular audio tracks, so they can play in regular CD players. Longhorn will still read regular audio tracks, so it can still play old CDs that don't have a DRMed copy of their content. Even if Longhorn checks for a mixed-mode CD and restricts access to the music portion, that breaks older mixed-mode CDs that have the music on the audio portion only, and other content on the data portion. Bottom line, it sounds to me like I'll still be able to just hold shift.
Thank you M$ you just gave me the "final straw" to migrate to Linux.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
...the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
For someone who has no problem with MS, this is really arrogant. I don't care how much the music industry wants copy protection, I bet this letter did not go over well. On September 2nd, you give me a letter that gives me 18 whole days to make a decision that has major implications on the future of the entire industry. I bet this must leave even the most jaded observers questioning MS sanity and arrogance.
What if a country who cares about it's citizen's rights (like Germany, where Macrovision is illegal, because it prevents backups) and decides to OUTLAW the copy-protection scheme?
I figure in 2006 (when Longhorn is supposed to ship) I won't be buying CD's anymore; I barely do as it is now. I really enjoy ITunes and the pricing for a full album's material is almost always better than any retailer's (including Amazon) price.
ITunes restrictions are reasonable enough that they don't get in my way...and it's cheaper. I don't need a physical CD anymore. Music on demand. I like it.
blenderking.com over 50,000 blenders can't be wrong
This'll be like DiVX and TurboTax. Oh, and Windows XP.
Face it: people without longhorn won't suffer, people with it will, all previous generations of appliance-level devices won't work with the item, and we'll still be able to make perfect copies of an almost-perfect first-generation analog copy. No upside, a zillion downsides.
I can't wait for this show...
There is always another way to rip the audio from CDs. So Microsoft builds copy protection into their OS. Who cares. It wont stop me from making backups of my CDs.
-=Prock=-
nor so I speak Latin, so I didn't know that Quid Pro Quo means "An equal exchange or substitution." ( American Heritage )
Sola Deo Gloria!
isn't this how the patriot act was passed? wait until the last minute so it has to be agreed upon OR ELSE.
Trying to push something at the last second never works. There will be mistakes, a need for new patches, who knows.
I would think as long as a CD-Rom can read a disk as a data disk, then this will all be meaningless. Someone will write an application which will skip over the "bonus" track. The only way this can work is if MS decides their windows media player is the only player they will allow. But didn't the courts tell MS they could not do that?
Come and say hi. http://forum.penpals.com/index.php
-
Many independent labels are rumoured to be terrified by the proposal, our sources suggest, which could grant Microsoft the mandate on CD copy protection and, if it is accepted by the industry, potentially increase the costs of CD production.
While here onI don't know about you but that thought's pretty scary. I don't like copy protection at all (I bought the damn thing, I want to do what I want to with it, and no that doesn't include sharing it illegally) if it's going to happen I don't think Microsoft is a trustworthy steward to have in control of it. Based on their past actions the whole music industry would probably get worse than the current corrupt and abusive (to artists and fans) system.
"I love being screwed."
Well, I would hope you do...
This is really good news for Linux vendors.
Microsoft got to be the dominant OS vendor by lowering the barriers for acquisition of its products. No copy protection (mostly), and it came on every box.
I guess they learned their lesson. If you leave off the copy protection, those silly consumers will start using the stuff right and left and then where will you be?
Market share is everything.
And Microsoft pushing around the RIAA -- that's wonderful stuff.
sigs, as if you care.
Where does Microsoft expect us to install that long horn?
I don't see where I'm getting any kind of benefit from their plan.
Forget about lower prices and increased innovation, the real benefit of having an alternative in Linux IMO is the protection of our rights as consumers. MS will simply speed the migration to Linux if it tries to cram DRM down our throats.
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
they'll jump on it just because it will cause problems to your average low-tech user.
The music industry/hollywood are trying to kill-off CD and DVD as fast as they can because they are copyable.
I bet it won't be long before the only way to buy movies/music will be over the net via a DRM mechanism and traditional store-bought media (and all non-DRM players ) have a very limited time left to run.
Unless the MS encryption scheme was given to all music media players (including rival OSs), a music industry crushing fair use lawsuit should be brought. Music has always been (by design) a portable genre. Old example - I buy an LP and make a tape (or mix tape if it's for m'Lady) so I can play it in the car. When CD burners came along I pulled the LP into the PC, split tracks and cleaned the audio - then made a CD. I also ripped these tracks into my MP3 player to go jogging (like I jog!).
Movies are less portable, but I should be allowed a backup, and I used to be able to 'cut' a scene and make it my desktop wallpaper. Those should also be 'fair use'.
All your digital rights are belong to us...
Busy aligning my non-linear thoughts.
...I don't think I've ever really said it, but I hate Microsoft. Not in a flaming way, I just plain hate them.
The preceding message was based on actual events. Only the names, locations and events have been changed.
or a track, which would otherwise be there already, that is unlockable only on a computer with Windows Longhorn installed?
No kidding... as long as there's an option to purchase a CD sans-bonus-track (or whatever it is), I'll take it if it has no freedom sacrificing protections on it.
I was thinking Longhorn looked pretty nice, and I'm one of those Slashdotters that spends a fair amount of time in Windows (I dual boot, honest!). I'm *not* going to give up freedoms I currently have now though, which means buying only non-encumbered software, including my OS.
I'll buy the non-encumbered CD's, and pirate the bonus tracks. Unless the non-encumbered discs are cheaper, then I when I pay the same price as the next guy, I want the same content he gets.
It's BS, and I won't have it.
Hopefully soon we'll see recording companies springing up whose philosophy is to allow users access to their fair use rights. Or recording companies who make their money from live concerts or the like, rather than from album sales. Give the albums away for free, and I guarantee I'm more likely to show up at a concert.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
...And stop buying. Seriously. A major company is catering to another major companies needs. Film at 11.
This is one of many cases that I think the free market will work. If people don't think the quid pro quo value is in their favor, than the RIAA loses because people will stop buying their product.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I agree about mainstream-marketed music. I do still find new music that I like, but mainly through other sources. I'll sound like an Amazon-shill for saying this, but after rating a few of my favorite CDs at Amazon, they've been pretty good at finding other stuff that I like and sometimes end up buying.
Also, the NPR radio station KCRW in Santa Monica, California, plays some interesting new music during their Morning Becomes Eclectic program. Certainly not everyone's taste, but new, fairly diverse, and generally not mainstream. If you're not lucky enough to live within range of their antennae, they broadcast on the web in MP3, RealAudio and Windows Media formats. There's a simulcast, a news-only stream, and a music-only stream.
God I hope so! I was worried for a second!
Ascalante: Your bride is over 3,000 years old.
Kull: She told me she was 19!
Sounds about as enticing as losing a dental plan for a keg of beer.
Dental plan.
Lisa needs braces.
Dental plan.
Lisa needs braces.
Dental plan.
Lisa needs braces.
Bonus track.
Lisa need fair use.
Bonus track.
Lisa need fair use.
Bonus track.
Lisa need fair use.
This may surprise you, but a great number of computer users, Windows, Linux, Mac or otherwise, don't focus their computing time on playing games.
They do their work, read their email and go about their business and when finished, turn the PC off and live life offline.
For those that get stuck with this problem, there's always a PS2 or Xbox.
RIAA: We like to screw customers?
M$: How so?
RIAA: We used to enforce $20 a music CD throughout the entire 90s.
M$: That's nothing. We make people pay subscriptions for life.
RIAA: Yes, but we enforce $20 over products we don't produce.
M$: Damn that's good. But ours include holes for viruses and spyware. So people will spend more money.
RIAA: Well, our music CDs will soon be unlistenable because we will change format. They will have to buy the music again.
M$: Yes, we can arrest people for stealing our software.
RIAA: Please, we have already arrested a grandmother, a single parent on welfare, and a 5 year old.
M$: You are my idol.
You seem to really need to bash it into the skulls of Microsoft and RIAA that copy protection won't help much. They just aren't getting it.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Dude, if I shoved a steaming pile of SHIT into my computer, I wouldn't expect to work.
And that's exactly what shit like this is. It ain't bad news for apple, it's bad news for the fuckwits who get suckered into buying trojan horse bullshit GARBAGE.
This is a classic marketing move on Microsoft's part. First, you hit them with the down side. You will have to include this information on all of the CD's you produce. Before anyone can think of the potential options, Microsoft gives an example that the music industry is ok with, "bonus tracks".
Not so bad on its surface, but what "bonus tracks" could Microsoft possible what to add? The obvious answer is commercials! Just like DVD's. Microsoft will control, and license, the area that will play to every user before they listen to there music. Each time they play the CD.
It's a brilliant move, but one that is very scary at the same time.
Microsoft appears to have offered DRM to the music industry, in exchange for which the music industry must include additional content over unprotected media. This appears to be a move by Microsoft to spread the winnings around the table, if only a little. Here's how I see it:
. Microsoft gets its own DRM technology approved by the industry, and with control of the main PC platform establishes it as the de-facto standard.
. The music industry gets a widely-deployed DRM technology to stem what it sees as an erosion of its marketplace.
. Consumers who purchase DRM-enabled media instead of standard media would get additional content not available elsewhere.
I think this move should be acknowledged by the digirati as a small step towards a real solution, though not the final one. It appears Microsoft is attempting to exact a concession from the music industry on behalf of consumers. (Of course, it would be more heroic to suffer a cost themselves, but Microsoft is anything but financially stupid.)
Now for some problems with the alleged proposal:
. DRM is DRM, and some of us don't want any of it.
. If you must have DRM, an open standard would be preferred.
. It's likely only a matter of time before the DRM is broken, bringing the music industry back to square one.
. Additional content for our troubles is a nice touch - make it worthwhile (like videos of all the tracks, lyrics, Bio's, discographies, Lo-Fi non-DRM MP3's for portable devices, etc.).
But let's not just hammer the participants out of reflex. Slashdot may be a mob, but we're supposed to be a smart mob.
Why don't you give Magnatune a try? They have a decent selection of music, you can download the albums as many times as you like in quite a few formats (including FLAC and straight up WAV), and best of all...they're not the RIAA.
My G4 powerbook's got an eject button on the very top-right of the keyboard. Ok, it's a software one, but the machine's mounted and happily ripped every copy-protected CD I own, including one that locked up an old G3 iMac.
I don't know when this becomes critical mass, but I find the trend in media disturbing. But, before it does, and I don't suggest the time, place, or mechanism, I wouldn't mind seeing a mass customer revolt. It wouldn't take long for the RIAA to raise eyebrows if virtually everyone stopped purchasing music until the future of "owning" music looked less draconian. I know much of this is driven by the fear of pirating, etc., but the future does more than assure less piracy and seems more to ensure beaucoups des revenues (pardon the butchered French) for RIAA and cohorts.
If we can organize flash-mobs, we should be able to organize flash-boycotts (assuming there are others who see the trend in media control as untenable).
"95% of all windows boxes must contain 100% pirated software."
And I'll call bull on that. Except maybe if you're talking China or ex-USSR where they can't even afford to pay hundreds of bucks for a text editor or 40 bucks for a game. (If a game costs as much as your monthly salary, or more, and you also have to eat out of that salary... well, moral decisions just get a lot easier.)
Even by the BSA's BS statistics, about the highest software piracy rate in the USA is in North Dakota, at almost 40%. And in some states it's in the low teens.
That's a bloody far cry from your 95% bullshit.
And bear in mind that there's a reason there's BS in BSA. Their statistics are inflated beyond belief. If some chinese kid downloads 3DS Max to toy around with making models for a game (e.g., "X2: The Threat" only supports 3DS Max models), the BSA counts it as $6000 lost sales. On account that surely every single kid, even in china, would have paid $6000 to make mods for a $40 game.
Yeah, right. Dunno in which country kids get $6000 as pocket change.
I.e., again, in practice, the real piracy rate is actually lower than that.
The reason why a majority of Americans or Europeans pay for their software isn't that we're more stupid than the Chinese and just can't find a crack. It's because we're not the kind of cheapskate whose only options are free beer or stolen beer. Because it's the morally right thing to do.
Some of us actually paid for Windows. Yes, go figure. I went and bought the Win2K copy I'm writing this on. Retail. And for Linux too, for that matter. The SuSE 9.0 I use at work, I've actually went and bought the funny green box. And for a ton of other software, copy-protected stuff included.
In fact, I'll tell you what: if Microsoft could actually come up with a copy-protection scheme that actually _works_ and actually stops pirates, Microsoft would have my heartfelt gratitude. Speaking as a consumer, and no, I don't work for MS. I'm sick and tired of seeing good games companies going bankrupt, while freeloading cheapskates (some driving SUVs and sports cars) leech their games on P2P.
(On the other hand, crap that only inconveniences the paying customer and doesn't actually do anything to pirates, I've still had enough of.)
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Hit record.
I don't hear a difference. But then maybe it's my tired old ears?
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
I say we start a movement against the purchasing of music from any label associated with the RIAA. to Quote /. "There's small choice in rotten apples. -- William Shakespeare, "The Taming of the Shrew"
-This whole mess mkes me really mad, whatever happened to the Consumers Rights, or did those die in the 80's? It seems that everything today is geared at protecting the Big Companies. perfect example Grandmas and 12year olds get sued, and it's ok. This is a sick world we live in. Money is not everything, information is everything.
let me get this straight.. microsoft are ramming some hastily conceived and rush-designed security format down their partner's throats, and will be locking themselves and said partners to it.
and then they're giving us *how* many years to come up with workarounds or outright cracks?
heh. hehehehehehe.
Microsoft is moving their monopoly control onto the CD music industry? Will these copy-protected CDs be able to work on any other platforms other than Longhorn? What about Linux and Mac users? Will we be locked out?
I find it so infuriating that the moronic recording industry is implementing these sorts of things. If a CD is copy protected, someone is going to get copies of the tracks onto P2P networks somehow anyway, and they will be accessible only through illegal means. They are forcing legitimate customers to resort to music piracy as their only avenue to get the latest albums.
I'm honestly one of those people that used to buy a lot of CDs. I have no qualms about paying for it legitimately, so I find it offensive that I have to be subjected to copy protection to prevent me from getting it onto my computer, which is my stereo as well. Not only can't the SuperDrive on my Titanium PowerBook rip the CDs, but it can't even play them as regular audio CDs either. I no longer buy CDs anymore, because my laptop can't read them and I can't play them, because they are all copy protected. I was a good customer and now I don't buy their products!
Doesn't that say something about the shit-for-brains strategy they're implementing? I don't share my ripped tracks on P2P networks. I actually find it useful to own CDs because they serve as backup copies. And since they are uncompressed, you can re-rip them using different algorithms, like if you choose decide to switch from the default 128 kbps to 192 kbps or higher for better quality, or if you decide to start using the Apple Lossless audio codec.
They are actually stopping me from buying their product. They are such fucking unbelievable idiots. And guess what? Music from the recording industries isn't necessary in one's life as much as their marketing would like you to think. I'm fine with the music I already have. Like I said, I was a good customer- a really good customer- so I already acquired a decent collection of CDs before this copyright crap came along. They are locking out honest paying customers. That is the dumbest thing ever.
Except its industry? I would certianly prefer no DRM, i certianly understand why the riaa would want it. Its in their best interests. Unfortuantly, there are many stupid people that don't understand the consequences of file sharing of copyrighted works. Of course, the industry is going to react. If everyone would freekin apply some common sence we wouldn't be in this pickle. Now we all have to pay for the sins of the few. I just hope that the restrictions aren't more severe then they are now for digital music stores.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Someone will just play the cd using their super-linear ultra high fidelity audiophile 28 bit audio card, and plug the output into their ultra linear ultra high fidelity audiophile 28 bit digitizer, and then downsample the whole audiophile quality album into a very non-audiophile 128kbps MP3. If you can hear it or see, there's a way to copy it. Even if you have to whip out the ole' cam-corder.
MS probably won't be knocking on my door any time soon. :o)
Remember when WalMart was supposed to push Linux into the mainstream consumer market?
Well, there are three remaining, pathetic, Microtel Linux/Linspire desktops being sold off Walmart.com and the link is like an afterthought. The Sun JDS is history. Open WMP 10 and you'll find Walmart.com added to the list of online stores.
Ok, here's the list: RIAA Membership
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
People want it because it's all they ever hear. The radio plays almost entirely the big label bands; so all most people know about are the big label bands. The biggest problem (from the RIAA standpoint) with P2P is not lost sales from people downloading new music; it's people discovering new music that they don't control. Then people can go to shows and buy CDs, and the RIAA doesn't get any money. The beauty of the Internet is that it is so distributed and anyone can publish information (attracting reader/listeners is the difficult part). I'd love to develop a website where fans can give tribute to band for their work, find new artists, hear about show, but I just don't have the time... I think the future of music is going to be independent artists making their own music and selling it/distributing it themselves, then they use live performances to make money, and if the songs are good enough, I think some people will buy them. I've heard that the average artist makes about 8 cents per album sold. If I can produce a CD and sell it myself for $8 + S&H I've increased my profit 100 fold (minus negligible production costs). That means instead of selling 100,000 I have to sell 1,000. In my opinion that is pretty doable if the album was good enough to make 100,000 by today's standards. Granted, there are a lot of upfront costs that labels cover, but recording equipment is getting cheaper, and computers are getting better at doing some of the technical work (I am talking out of my ass about equipment). As far as Linux gaining market share. I have to agree that 90%+ of all users don't want to do an OS install (Linux or Windows), and as long as Windows is the leading desktop OS most computers will come with it, and most people will know it, and most people will want to stick with it. The only way to get people to change is to show them the advantage of doing so (perhaps this is applicable). From the manufacture side, if I can pump out all of my machines with one OS that means I only have to make sure my hardware works with one OS (reduced costs), and I can reduce the complexity of my production line. As long as there isn't strong demand for alternative OSes there won't be many vendors really pushing the other OSes. I say this and know that it is possible to buy HP notebooks with SuSE and other machines with Linux flavors, but when I was on the HP website I couldn't actually get a price for the notebook with SuSE preinstalled. To give my own experience, I installed Red Hat 8.0 a few years ago on an old machine after building a new box to run Windows 2k. Now I'm at the point where I'd like to switch to entirely Linux, but there are a few things I use in Windows that I don't want to give up and can't switch (Quicken with automatic downloads from my banking sites). My next machine I'm going to build will be more powerful than my Windows box and I'm going to run Linux on it. I'm hoping that is another good stepping stone. So I like to think I have an open mindedness towards both OSes for the advantages they provide. I'd also like to add that I have ripped all of my CDs into MP3s and I rarely listen to my actual CDs. I find that most of the time I'm listening to music it is more convenient to just add a few tracks to my play-list than it is to find a CD to play. Plus I can add a few tracks from several albums and get a variety of music without having to constantly stop what I'm doing to change tracks. If M$ came in and said you can't transfer your MP3s to another computer, or listen to them over the network that is a SIGNIFICANT incentive for me to not use their operating system, and more than likely it would cause to not use Longhorn.
the problem is that bypassing this system will require a well equipped science lab to extract your keys out of a tamper-resistant self-destructing microchip.
Or a pair of microphones, a pair of speakers, and a decently quiet environment.
The behind-the-scenes politics looks really interesting. MS makes contract with all sorts of online music resellers. MS then releases new media player with NEW DRM and opens OWN online store. MS announces "breakthru" in music DRM and tells RIAA they "must act now!"
Is this a race to see how fast they'll get slapped down or what...oh wait...they've got that HUGE dividend comming up real soon...maybe they're trying to pump the stock price before they cash out!!! The writing's on the wall. MS is planning SOMETHING anti-competitive and hostile to the market real-soon-now and wondering when the Justice Dept will get called in for the smack down
I have to disagree with the "uglier" point
It takes 7 less muscles to smile than to frown. The rest of you are just lazy.