Microsoft Takes on TiVo

CatsCradle writes "The Seattle Times has an article about Microsoft's Foundation and their new partnership with Comcast to provide a TiVo-like service."

Comments

Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

It was nice knowing you.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

Why?

It's not like they're combining a tivo like service with their next X-box straight out of the box.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

Give it time. First, they'll place nice. Then, they'll support everything TiVo does. Then, oops, the compatibility will break. Suddently, everything you have works fine with the MS product, but doesn't work on TiVo anymore. Oh well, guess you'll have to switch to MS's product retain access to everything.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Johnny O]

Because M$ has more money and muscle to influence companies.... End of Tivo

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[calibanDNS]

Hardly. Tivo has name recognition in the DVR market (so much so that many people don't know what a DVR is, but certainly know what a Tivo is). Tivo's been in the market for years and has a large installed userbase. Microsoft will have to fight hard to catch up to this. In my opinion, this is similar to Microsoft entering the console market with the XBox. The XBox sells decently in the US, but it can't compare to PS2 sales in any market. Why? Sony has name recognition and beat MS to market in the current generation of consoles. I think that MS is going to have a very difficult time unseating Tivo as the King of DVRs.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Gr8Apes]

With a deal with Comcast that places their box directly into homes without the specter of competition, MS is a shoe in for a large percentage of homes if this is exclusive. If people have to pay extra for it, MS may not "win". Comcast does already have a DVR offering at the moment, after all.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[a_nonamiss]

OK, TiVo has a huge share in the DVR (or PVR, as my Cable company calls it) market, but didn't Netscape used to have like 92% of the browser market? Name recognition means crap when competing against Microsoft. Sorry, but unless TiVo partners up with cable box makers YESTERDAY, then they're done.

Hey TiVo, you need to call someone over at Motorola. I have a Motorola cable/PVR/HDTV box and it SUCKS. Bad. I've had TiVo for three years, and I love it. The Motorola box crashes all the time, the controls suck, the program guide sucks. Looks like it was programmed in the 80's.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[ShelbyCobra]

I suppose that the Tivo name will soon becom like the Rollerblade brand name, any in-line skate is now pretty much recognized as "rollerblades" even though the name is owned by Rollerblade (big R). This hurts the owner of the original product too, so everyone will know the name "tivo" (little T) and soon begin to forget Tivo (big T).

Other brands that have seen this:

Kleenex
Crecent Wrench
Leatherman

Anyone know any more?

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[kmankmankman2001]

Riiigggghhhttt. Look, just because MS enters a market doesn't mean the automatic destruction of that market's current players. It certainly brings an 800 lb gorilla into play and any company would be a fool not to be prepared to step up their game.

Though . . . I can't quite place it . . . hmmm . . . so familiar . . . ahhh, yes, Ultimate TV. Guess it wasn't as "ultimate" as MS said it was, eh?

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[gad_zuki!]

>Netscape used to have like 92% of the browser market?

End user: Why pay for Netscape when this IE thing is free!

*months later*

Netscape: We're free too now.

End user: Too late. I already have things setup the way I like.

Unless there's some severe price-breaks and bundling involved I wouldn't write off Tivo just yet.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[YU Nicks NE Way]

The big daddy of them all: Aspirin -- still a trademark in Germany, but now held to be generic in the United States. And, of course, Xerox, which is rapidly becoming an unenforceable trademark here, too.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[FatRatBastard]

You're a few years late on your predictions of Doom and Gloom. Would have been more believable a couple of years ago when MS launched their first version of UltimateTV (whatever it was called then). So far it hasn't exactly been a stunning success.

As for the new service? Well, from what I can tell every non TiVo/ReplayTV licensed DVR box put out by the cable companies has been woefully short on features. About the only thing cable DVRs have going for them are video on demand. I'm not exactly holding my breath, or selling my TiVo for that matter, expecting this situation to change.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[calibanDNS]

Comparing this to the browser wars is a little misleading, unless Comcast is giving out the MS box as the standard set top box. Microsoft was able to gain a large share of the browser market by bundling IE with windows, which Netscape just couldn't compete with. And eventually, people started to realize that IE wasn't necessarily the best option, which is why Firefox's share of the market is increasing even though users have to actively seek it out.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my Tivo. If you want to take it away you'll have to pry it out of my cold, dead, hands.*

I'm sure MS could come up with something if they really tried, but as long as it's tied to all that Media Center PC junk, I doubt anyone will care.

* They're not actually cold and dead - the office air-con is on high today... brrrrrr.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

If Microsoft makes this so cheap that no cable company can turn them down, what chance does TiVo stand? People will say "Why should I pay for a TiVo and subscription when I can get this box for $8 a month from my cable company?"

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[dingd0ng]

Seems like pretty much any copier is a "xerox" machine, whether or not Xerox made it.

And if I'm going to have something express delivered to someone else, I tell them I'll "fedex" it, whether I'm going to use FedEx or not.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[4of12]

Microsoft will have to fight hard to catch up to this.

Why do they need to fight?

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to for them to buy TiVo outright? They could buy 100 companies of TiVo's size using petty cash!

And, just like hotmail service that originally ran fine on BSDying, they could slowly "upgrade" the TiVo users to MS-Whatever, once it's ported to PPC, once the call center's been warned about the fanatics calling in about how their 9th-Tee Ethernet card doesn't work anymore, etc.

OK, nevermind.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Rude Turnip]

Boy do I hear that! You don't know how much of a godsend Season Pass is until you use Comcast's POS DVR...oh and they charge you $10 a month to use it, so TiVo is very competitive in terms of pricing. I'm saving my pennies for a new TiVo (currently have a Series 2) that offers:

CableCard to eliminate the need for a Comcast box
HDTV
Built-in DVD Burner

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[3nuff]

Tivo is already partnered with DirecTV.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[MadBiologist]

However, DirecTV may be in the process of developing their own DVR so that they don't have to rely on Tivo anymore...

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Sv-Manowar]

I,for one, welcome Blue Screen TV and all it brings to the table.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Golias]

aspirin, cellophane, nylon, thermos, escalator...

You can google for more if you like. ;)

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[a_nonamiss]

True, but that box costs $1000, and Sattelite service STARTS at $20/mo higher than what I get from cable. Still, if this damn DVR crashes one more time...

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[ShelbyCobra]

You can google for more if you like. ;)
Ooh, good one!

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

WOW. Not the case where I live.

Satellite, $34 Cable $49.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[armitage_23]

My Series2 DirecTivo was $100, vs. free for the normal tuner. Only the HDTV unit is $1000.

Comcast costs about $35/mo for cable in my area. DirecTV is $39/mo. Tivo adds another $5/mo to my DTV bill, vs. $15/mo for a stand-alone Tivo.

My Tivo can record 2 channels at the same time, I don't know about the Comcast PVR.

The costs are really about the same.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[mcc]

Microsoft will have to fight hard to catch up to this.

The thing about Microsoft is they don't care whether they fail, or how much money they lose, or whether they ever recoup the money lost. All they care about is whether their competitors die.

What I am trying to say is: Microsoft can fight hard and long if they need to to end the perceived threat TiVo creates. Just like with the XBox and MSIE and Windows CE, they're going to keep trying at this TiVo killer, over and over, sinking however many millions or billions are necessary, until they manage to hit something actually capable of killing TiVo. This particular product may not be a threat to TiVo. The next version of it might, or the one after. Microsoft will keep trying until they manage to do something that works. Even this is, after all, their second or third attempt at a PVR, isn't it?

This is the problem with being Microsoft's enemy. You only have to lose once and you're out of the game forever. Microsoft can lose as many times as it wants and not be hurt one bit.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[jwsd]

The biggest threat to TiVo is cable operators, not Microsoft. For years, TiVo couldn't sign on a single US cable operator to incorporate their technologies into the next generation cable settop boxes. At the same time, the cable operators have been actively adding TiVo like features to their settop boxes. Some develop the technologies in house like Time Warner's MyStroTV, others partnered with third party vendors, like Microsoft and many other companies in that space. Microsoft has lost billions of dollars trying to enter the cable TV industry. TiVo has no success either. That's why many Wall Street's analysts predicted TiVo's death because of competition from cable operator's settop boxes enabled with DVT technologies.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[cens0r]

The difference is that the cable company is packaging this. If I am a comcast digital customer and want to use my Tivo, I'm stuck with two incompatibal guides. I'm forced to have Tivo using an IR blaster of some sort to change the channel on my cable box. I'm forced to purchase a second cable box if I want to watch and record something at the same time. This service builds all that in. Plus it's cheaper. With this service there is no compelling reason for a comcast customer to get tivo.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

> The big daddy of them all: Aspirin -- still a trademark in Germany, but now held to be generic in the United States

That's a special case. Bayer AG was forced to give up any IP (trademarks and patents) to Aspirin under the treaty of Versailles at the end of WWI. Another trademark it lost this way: Heroin. No kidding.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[dickeya]

It could go that way. Microsoft has the budget to advertise on all major networks and in all major publications as much as they want. They have the potential to out advertise most companies. All they need to do is associate their product with Tivo and provide a better value or feature set. I still don't see Tivo as standard and established enough to claim the market title.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[a_nonamiss]

Just to make sure it's apples-to-apples, I'm talking about cable plus HDTV plus the DVR service. My cable company starts at $37 plus $13 for the set-top-box, including the DVR and HDTV enabled.

DirecTV starts at $35, but by the time you add the options I described above, it's around $70/mo. And that doesn't include premium stations.

But really, here, it's the $1000 that put it out of reach for me.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Fnkmaster]

The problem is the cable companies are bitches about this. They don't want to share profits with anybody - neither does Microsoft, really, for that matter. Tivo apparently tried to negotiate deals with cable companies to bundle Tivo systems built into cable boxes, but Tivo wanted too much money for software that the cablecos figured they could get Scientific Atlanta and the other shitty settop cable box manufacturers to clone for much cheaper.

Of course the result of such cheapness is that the packaged cable DVR systems are pure ass and nobody I know uses they for such (a lot of people seem to use the VOD features, on the other hand). People who want to record shows and timeshift seem to still by and large go with Tivo, ReplayTV or similar boxes.

It would really make me cry to see Microsoft underprice Tivo into this market, but unlike Tivo, Microsoft can afford to give their base software away at cost, assuming they get something out of the deal. The problem is that Microsoft wants to commoditize the cable company itself, and make their OS the source of on demand media. MS doesn't want to sell software TO the cable companies, they want to BE the cable company (well, they don't want to run lines to your home, they just want to control the content pipe so they get a cut of everything).

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[rjelks]

I agree....

I could never justify the $300.00 expense for the Tivo. I think their cool, but adding a monthly subscription kills it for me. I've been using a couple of TV cards in 2 PC's for a few of years, but I'd like a better solution for the living room (my girl can't understand why we need a computer in there). I wouldn't drop down $300 for the Tivo, but for an extra $10 a month, I'd like to try it out with Comcast/Microsoft. My dang bill is getting so high, what's another ten bucks. :)

I used to enjoy messing around with HTPC's (Meedio is really cool), but stuff is moving to digital and it's time consuming to keep it all running, much less explain to the less geeky how to run it. I could see a lot of people, who don't know anything about DVR's, going for this as a new addon service. After that, how many of them would need a new Tivo?

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

who wants a DVR that will crash in the middle of recording a program?

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[btc9183]

I've got a Scientific Atlanta model 8000 from my cable company and it isn't bad at all. I use it all the time -- never need to worry about missing an episode of the Sopranos again... :)

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[airjrdn]

If they ditch Tivo, chances are I'll ditch them. I'm not married to my DTV, I'm married to a good looking signal (currently better than my cable provider provides) in addition to my Tivo.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[prozac79]

Tivo has name recognition in the DVR market (so much so that many people don't know what a DVR is, but certainly know what a Tivo is). Tivo's been in the market for years and has a large installed userbase.

Substitute Netscape for TiVo and Internet for DVR and that statement looks very familiar. And we all know what happened there.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

When do you plan to get this "magical" TiVo that has a CableCard slot?

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo has pissed off a lot of people with their screwed up marketing scam. I think there's a lot of people who have been avoiding buying a TiVo for that reason and will jump at the chance for to buy an MS one that isn't so broken like TiVo.

I hope MS crushes TiVo in a way that is most painful for TiVo fans.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[JeffTL]

I really miss that one company that used to have a big chunk of the PC market, before Microsoft got their act together. What was their name again? Apple? It's a real shame they went debt-free and profitable, eh?

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Dr. Evil]

Note, it was more than free, it was shipped with your computer and embedded as a default. It was tough to disable, and eventually was even integrated (poorly) into your desktop. To kick it all off, systems integrators were forbidden from installing, then forbidden from including Netscape.

Why download a 7-15MB download on a dinky modem when you've already got a browser?

Microsoft could still pull this off, by say, giving partners a sweet deal for some video codec and forbidding Tivo from using it.

So the bizzare subsidized online media format becomes Microsoft's selling point for cheap downloadable movies and T.V. which the Tivo can't access.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Zangief]

But, TiVo doesn't have name recognition outside the US, while MS does. So it can happen the opposite than in the console wars.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[superpulpsicle]

Come on people, do you really trust Microsoft products that has a version number until 1000?

You'll probably set to record the Playboy channel and end up with an episode of Teletubbies.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[bishopolis]

Yeah, so XBox can't compete wish PS2 outside of the states, sure .. but MS doesn't need to compete with TiVo outside of the states: Tivo hasn't taken that remarkably foreign step of recognizing other countries. Currently, Tivo's only the king of DVRs in what is, globally speaking, a minority market.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[jargoone]

The boxes that cable companies have are already cheaper than TiVo. TiVo is still doing fine. Turns out that paying for something good is better than a cheap piece of shit.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[calibanDNS]

Re-read the post and check some purchase statistics. The XBox does OK in the states, but still can't compete with the PS2. My point is that in a market where MS doesn't have the option of pushing their newer products along with an older, established product, they haven't shown the ability to be successful. I'm not saying that they can't do it, I'm just saying that it will be difficult for them. Also, if they keep pushing products that are not turning a profit (like the XBox), sooner or later investors will start noticing.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[durdur]

Sorry, but Tivo reliability sucks too. Mine spontaneously reboots at random intervals. Also I had the hard drive die and had to replace it. It's a computer really and I expect computers to act like this, but I suspect a lot of their customers expect to plug it in, set it up once and have it keep working.

I'd be glad if Comcast rolled out their own competing box because another issue is keeping the Tivo box synched when Comcast changes their channel lineup. Hopefully if you had one vendor for DVR and programming this would be more automated.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[jedidiah]

You are assuming that the comcast service is any good. If it's like the bundled DishTV PVR then there will still be ample motivation to buy Tivos.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[gubbas]

Not true. I'm a Tivo owner (3 yrs) and recently got the PVR offered from Comcast. I use is along side with my Tivo. Tivo does most of the work, recording the bulk of the programs on ch. 2-99. The Comcast box gets the digital content, plus I can schedule it to purchase a PPV while I am not there. So, there is a reason to have both because neither is a complete solution when you have digital cable.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a much, much smaller delta between MSFT products and the competition in the DVR market than the game console market. I'm a comcast customer in WA and I've skipped getting a TiVo because I've been waiting for the cable company to offer just this service. One box, no hardware purchase fee, and a cheaper subscription than TiVo's. What's not to love?

The only way Comcast could screw this up is by offering some shit amount (30 hours) of hard drive space for storing programs.

Looking forward to Monday.

MD

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[enrico_suave]

"I'm saving my pennies for a new TiVo (currently have a Series 2) that offers:

CableCard to eliminate the need for a Comcast box
HDTV
Built-in DVD Burner"

Well you are unlikely to get a cablecard enabled tivo, which besides directTV branded tivo's precludes HDTV... well I guess one out of three ain't bad?

e.

Re:Goodbye Tivo

[stonecypher]

In my opinion, this is similar to Microsoft entering the console market with the XBox.

Isn't it a little more like their entering the market with UltimateTV?

Oh, right, I'm the only person that seems to remember that this is their third attempt to take TiVo on.

This will be fun.

[wooby]

I've never seen a BSOD on a TV before. Hopefully through the deal Comcast will supply the NTLDR.

Re:This will be fun.

[Anonymous Coward]

And just think of all those great movies:-

The Blue Mile

Fried Blue Tomatoes

Soylent Blue

The Thin Blue Line

Blue Dragon

And of course, Crash!

Re:This will be fun.

[drinkypoo]

I haven't seen a BSOD on a TV either (although I have some pictures of some, at airports no less) but I have seen the prevue guide (when they were self-owned) meditate, as in a Guru Meditation. To think, if they had just bought (or warezed) GOMF they could have bypassed that problem entirely, one way or another. Having prevue guide crashed for several hours, blinking a rectangle at you, is kind of surreal, especially when you're practically the last Amigan in your town.

Re:This will be fun.

[bill_kress]

Neither have I and I've had a Microsoft TIVO (Ultimate TV) for a couple years now.

As far as I can tell, the UI is a bit better than TiVO and the functionality is really pretty good. It has that desktop internet thing that is pretty much useless, but otherwise I haven't seen one I liked better yet.

Oh, and as far as I know, it's been running 24/7 for a few years now and never crashed or needed a reboot. We upgraded hard drives in 3 of them, and 2 of the new hard drives have crashed, but otherwise, running great!

Re:This will be fun.

[EvilTwinSkippy]

I'm hoping they do something creative, like sub in the "Indian Head" screen test.

Re:This will be fun.

[chochos]

I've never seen a BSOD on a TV before

Come to Mexico City and watch Cablevision for a while, you can see the BSOD on their programming guide instead of the previews. This happens often, since they switched to "microsoft tv" and are starting to switch from everything they had to all-Microsoft for their infrastructure.

The satellite TV service Sky is about to do the same thing next year (it's owned by basically the same people). And DirecTV is closing shop in Mexico, so once again there is a monopoly here, this time on satellite TV. And Microsoft is in on it.

Re:This will be fun.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I've seen the GSOD of that total piece of junk RCA DVR that's got pulled from the market pretty quick. It looked like it was built on some version of Windows. I took it back after trying to make it work for two hours.

Re:This will be fun.

[CumInHerTaco]

I've never seen a BSOD on a TV before.

I actually have. One of our local government cable stations here in Utah used a W2K system and a PP presentation to herald local events and such. I just happened to flip past it one day and there it was, BSOD. It stayed that way for hours and it was the middle of a weekday.

It was really funny to watch a TV channel reboot.

Ultimate TV???

[RudyG13]

Didnt' they already try this?

Yup thought so

Re:Ultimate TV???

[Anonymous Coward]

I loved my UltimateTV. I got rid of Dish when Cox offer HD, but UltimateTV is much better than my experience with TV or the PVR that COX provides.

Re:Ultimate TV???

[gfxguy]

They didn't have the crutch they needed to dominate the market... Comcast will help them that way. It'll probably end up like XBox - a major force in the market, but not the king of the market, either. Competition will be alive and well...

EXCEPT MS has a history of supporting DRM and content providers over the consumer... I would not doubt MS will have some license to record certain content others may not because of draconian DRM implementation. Like so many other things, without realizing the ramifications, people would then flock to the MS device.

Re:Ultimate TV???

[Logicdisorder]

That they did and it was a DOG of a system to work with. A company I was working with at the time look at doing some work in it but it was very hard to do alot with. The same went for OpenTV.

I think it was a bit ahead of its time another great .Com idea but we all know how .Com turned out in the end

But on I will be fucked if I would use anything like that that had MS attached to it. I do not like there DRM I do not like it Sam I am.

Re:Ultimate TV???

[Anonymous Coward]

I have actually been a long time owner of both the Microsoft Ultimate TV boxes and the Tivo DirecTV DVR combo units.

To be honest the Microsoft Ultimate TV product (from 1+ year ago) was hands down better than even the current Tivo DirecTV units as far as included standard features and ease of use go.

The MS Ultimate TV supported 2 DirecTV tuners way before the Tivo, supports Picture in Picture to watch two DirecTV channels at once (Tivo still doesn't do this), Would group recorded programs into "folders" of the same show from different air dates (Tivo is finally doing this on their Stand Alone boxes, but still doesn't support it on their DirecTV boxes). Ultimate TV would show you % of Disk Space used (Tivo Doesn't).

These are just a few I can think of off the top of my head, and I haven't used my Ultimate TV for about 7 months.

So why did the MS Ultimate TV fail if it was a better product?

1. No real hack/tweakability other than the ability to add larger storage

2. Microsoft combined it with their Doomed "MSN TV/ WebTv" product which was sure to make people cringe

3. It costs 10 a month for the Ultimate TV service through DirecTV, but only 5 a month for Tivo (thats why im no longer using it)

4. No Standalone units ever created (required DirecTV service for usage)

Foundation

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, so this is Bill Gates' "Foundation" I keep hearing about!

</joke>

I thought it was called Ulitmate TV

[dbfruth]

Oh well I it will be fun to watch them fail yet again.

Blue screen

[AtariAmarok]

There is nothing like seeing a Blue Screen of Death on a 50 inch plasma screen. And there's nothing like having the "URKEL32" teleworm wipe out your Simpsons recording collection.

Re:Blue screen

[Anonymous Coward]

when is the last time you saw a blue screen in XP?

The "jokes" about the BSOD are old, so try to think a little and come up with something original.

Re:Blue screen

[duber007]

Try a 50' screen about 75' the ground....downtown Toronto, there's a bunch of very large digital screen used as ad platforms....saw one crash with a BSOD coming out of class....had to sit down I was laughing so hard....wish I had a camera.

Re:Blue screen

[AstroDrabb]

Two days ago at McDonald's. Their order screen had a big blue screen. I wish I had my camera with me.

Re:Blue screen

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Especially when after wiping out you simpsons it gives Nelson's "Ha Ha", and when it gets to your Star Trek collection it emit's Bone's "He's dead Jim."

Re:Blue screen

[killjoe]

It happened to me today. It didn't blue screen but it locked up tight. Nothing was responding so I had to turn the machine off.

Also it regularly goes to sleep and won't wake up. I have to restart the machine. This happens once a week or so.

I didn't have these kinds of problems when I was running windows 2000 on the same machine. On my machine windows XP is less stable then windows 2000.

That's probably because it's a year old Dell. Windows is very picky about hardware. It won't run properly on the vast majority of hardware on the market today.

Re:Blue screen

[93 Escort Wagon]

My wife runs into them every couple of days. She's not running as an admin; and really why should regular old software (things such as Eudora) be able to crash the operating system anyway?

On the occasions I play a game on that box I haven't had any BSODs - but my real computing is on a Powerbook so the time on Windows is pretty limited.

Re:Blue screen

[Anonymous Coward]

If I worked in Microsoft's kernel group I would lobby for changing the BSOD color to, say, green... just to see how long (if at all) it took for GSOD to enter common usage. ... but then I'd probably be fired for arsing about instead of doing real work.

Re:Blue screen

[ivan256]

Twice a week since I upgraded to XP a month ago, but maybe twice the entire 2 years I was running Windows 2000.

BSODs are retro. They're in style again. XP SP2 is the new Windows ME.

Re:Blue screen

[oldgeezer1954]

I have to admit that I only get a blue screen about once every two months. But other issues persist and I also get a funny/funky white background/black text message about once a quarter saying 'something went wrong, user should never see this." without any further hints as to source. I guess Microsoft ran out of blue crayons. XP is leagues ahead of the old 9x o/s but considering how low they set the goalpost to begin with that's nothing to crow about.

Re:Blue screen

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure? I've seen them about couple of times a month, which became more frequent as time went by.

Usually when that happens, I flash restore XP from linux, as if XP never knew it was resurrected by linux in 10 minutes. Then BSOD is gone for a while.

This is when XP is only used for couple of games and educational software. I don't do anything fancy in XP, since everything else is done in linux.

Re:Blue screen

[Anonymous Coward]

I may just be lucky or don't load crap on my machines, but both my work machine and my home machine run 24/7 and I can count on one hand the number of blue screens I've had since installing XP.

Re:Blue screen

[Anonymous Coward]

And there's nothing like having the "URKEL32" teleworm wipe out your Simpsons recording collection.

My guess is that unlike the Tivo, the MS system probably won't let you save old programs indefinitely or, worse, shift to other media like tape or DVD. This guess is based only a little on past behaviour, though just looking at the crap associated with MSWIndowsMediaPayer ought to scare anyone. MS execs have been eager to institute DRM, eager to team up with hollywood to for DRM on people.

Re:Blue screen

[leinhos]

Let me see... about 3 days after I got my new Gateway Laptop. I was running stuff that hasn't crashed my WinNT Box for years, then *poof*.

Seems like the natural stepping stone...

[PornMaster]

If MS wants to have Windows Media Center infiltrate the living rooms of America, this is a logical step. It also follows that they want to get their DRM involved at this side of things, both for encoding saved shows, and if there are Windows Media decoders at the set-top, perhaps on the production/encoding side of the cable.

Re:Seems like the natural stepping stone...

[sevinkey]

This is all available now with Windows XP Media Center Edition. Once the price drops down to $500 for a VCR like unit, I think we'll all have them.

Not a huge Microsoft fan, but I'm developing a channel for this system, and I gotta tell you, it's pretty slick.

Re:Seems like the natural stepping stone...

[LWATCDR]

I wonder if they combine XBox2 with this? Think of it if you try to mod it you will without a doubt be breaking the law since you do not own it. Microsoft can offer. Pay per play video games to your set top and could introduce a windows ONLY broadband service using the Set top box as your cable modem. Say good buy to having more than on computer on the network without paying extra.
I would love to see a P2P tivo like settop box. Some small cable company could setup all the settop boxes to act as one giant p2p network on there internal network to stream pay per view movies and or watch any old copy of a show at anytime. Sort of a giant universal TiVo and web cache. I would also love to see a deal where they get all the old games running on emulators for it so that you could choose from thousands of Atari, nes, snes, Sega, Intellivison and Playstation games online.

Re:Seems like the natural stepping stone...

[mcrbids]

If MS wants to have Windows Media Center infiltrate the living rooms of America, this is a logical step. It also follows that they want to get their DRM involved at this side of things,

Why is it that MS has been trying for years to get into the living room, and still hasn't succeeded?

Remember WebTV? What about the X-Box, which has been lackluster as a video console? (but makes a great cheapie Linux Webserver!)

Now, they're trying again, with the Tivo-alike.

(sigh)

I won't be holding my breath.

Re:Seems like the natural stepping stone...

[PornMaster]

Yes, but as you look at what battles they've given up on, and those new ones they're picking to fight on... it's about control of the standards. Trying to license out IETF protocols, get patented IP into the infrastructure, yet paying off Sun and Novell...

In a way, Sun was right... the network *is* the computer. High speed networking and the infiltration of digital signals everywhere in our lives change the game fundamentally... and Microsoft is looking at having everything that's connected to the network paying them some dough.

Yay!

[garcia]

Promote offerings with targeted ads and recommendations.

Microsoft TV Foundation 1.7 is also rich in opportunities for you to promote not just on-demand content, but high-definition TV, digital video recording, and to cross-sell voice and data services.

Use our optional Microsoft TV Best Bets recommendation engine to present consumers with movies based on their viewing history and critics' picks.

Link any static ad from the IPG or Managed Content Service to a VOD stream so consumers can play a movie preview or a promotion for your high speed service by just clicking the ad.

Use our optional Microsoft TV Business Pack application to schedule and manage promotions and ads and to track comprehensive impressions and click-through rates.

Ooh ooh, just what I want to pay extra for every month! MSFT's intrusion into the home CATV market with their own solution that brings me MORE advertising that's marketed directly towards me via the spyware running on their OS! /tinfoil

Sell and secure HDTV homes.
Microsoft TV Foundation 1.7 helps you attract and retain your most valuable consumers by highlighting high-definition TV programming:

Let viewers search for exclusive HDTV listings in the IPG.

Let viewers launch exclusive HDTV listings from the TV menu.

Highlight HDTV listings in the IPG with a distinctive icon.

Mmmm, secure HDTV. Don't want any of those pesky users exercizing their rights! Let's make sure that we can keep them from recording what you don't want them to. That way you can target them with even MORE advertising because they will be forced to watch what WE want them to watch.

Timeshifting be damned!

Re:Yay!

[chrish]

Yeah, that'll be great. Kinda like how the Shrek 2 DVD forces you to watch the previews before you can get to the menu. They managed to make it even more obnoxious than what Disney's been doing.

I hated having to sit through the FBI/Interpol warnings, but this is worse.

Re:Yay!

[Gentoo Fan]

What's wrong with "targeted" advertising? The last thing I want to see ads for are for things like tampons and cheap lite beer. If there are too many ads for a program in general, then I stop watching, but I don't see the problem with them showing me ads for things I might want to buy. Now, if the MS service is more pricey than regular CATV then I'd ignore it just on those grounds.

Re:Yay!

[sevinkey]

Timeshifting won't be an issue within a couple of years because everything will be going toward a Video-on-demand model where you can pay a small amount for a rental, or pay a little more to keep the content forever.

You'll also be able to transfer the content to other devices throughout your home and to portable devices.

There is one obvious drawback: we'll all be locked into Microsoft's solution.

But if it's a good solution, I'm not sure most of us will mind. I don't mind being locked into my Powerbook G4.

Re:Yay!

[AstroDrabb]

Kinda like how the Shrek 2 DVD forces you to watch the previews before you can get to the menu.

I just got Shrek 2 and that got me really mad. I was hitting the menu button like a mad-man. I took the DVD and created a backup without CSS, region coding, macrovision or the ads, so Disney can kiss my @ss.

Re:Yay!

[gfxguy]

The last thing you want, if you are paying for service, is any ads at all.

Re:Yay!

[Gentoo Fan]

You get ads anyways with CATV or satelite. Nobody is offering ad-free TV in any form, so it's either ads or no programming whatsoever.

Re:Yay!

[jeff.paulsen]

Mmmm, secure HDTV. Don't want any of those pesky users exercizing their rights! Let's make sure that we can keep them from recording what you don't want them to. That way you can target them with even MORE advertising because they will be forced to watch what WE want them to watch.

Timeshifting be damned!

"Sell and Secure HDTV Homes" means "get people who use HDTV to use our cable system, and keep them from switching to satellite". This should be clear from the context, as the next sentance reads "Microsoft TV Foundation 1.7 helps you attract and retain your most valuable consumers by highlighting high-definition TV programming".

Your rant about timeshifting rights is poorly informed. People who actually HAVE a Motorola DCT6412 set-top unit (the kind being used with the MSTVF1.7 rollout) report that it allows recording to the built-in hard drive for all content, and allows HD transfers out to other devices over Firewire.

Sure, there might be a gotcha in there somewhere about 5C or broadcast flags, but none is mentioned anywhere I've found. Care to tell us what it is? Is it any different if the DCT6412 has, say, Pioneer Passport, or iGuide, on it instead of MSTVF?

Re:Yay!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't it have been quicker to just mute the sound and go make a sandwich?

Re:Yay!

[garcia]

You get ads anyways with CATV or satelite. Nobody is offering ad-free TV in any form, so it's either ads or no programming whatsoever.

That's what TiVo is supposed to be for. Removal of ads and timeshifting.

Re:Yay!

[a7244270]

You get ads anyways with CATV or satelite. Nobody is offering ad-free TV in any form, so it's either ads or no programming whatsoever.

Not true. The premium movie services (HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc.) do not show any commercials whatsoever. Their programming is not strictly limited to movies - HBO and Cinemax in particular have some wonderful Original Series in their broadcast lineup, and they pretty much always sweep the Emmys.

Re:Yay!

[zfalcon]

Your point would be more valid if Shrek 2 was actually from Disney...It's from Dreamworks.

Re:Yay!

[AtariAmarok]

"Your point would be more valid if Shrek 2 was actually from Disney...It's from Dreamworks"

Also, his point would have been more valid if he had watched either "Shrek" film, with their obvious jabs at the Disney company.

Re:Yay!

[AstroDrabb]

OK, so Dreamworks can kiss my butt. Either way it is the same, some movie company trying to force advertising on customers.

Re:Yay!

[AstroDrabb]

Also, his point would have been more valid if he had watched either "Shrek" film

Um, are you implying that I did not watch the movies? I have watched both about 2 times each. I didn't notice any obvious jabs at Disney.

Re:Yay!

[AtariAmarok]

"Um, are you implying that I did not watch the movies? I have watched both about 2 times each. I didn't notice any obvious jabs at Disney."

I was going to ask if you have ever been to Disney World. The short guy's kingdom is a take-off on it. Starting with the turnstiles. Then I saw you were in Clermont: mere miles from it.

That explains a lot. You've likely never been there, like the Manhattanite who has never been in the Empire State Building :)

Re:Yay!

[AstroDrabb]

That explains a lot. You've likely never been there

Your batting 0% today brother. I live a few miles from Walt Disney World (I can be on Disney property in 10 minutes) and have Annual passes for the whole family. We are there a lot. I just watched Shrek 2 last and the kingdom of Far Far Away is what is stuck in memory. I guess I need to watch Shrek 1 again and look closer for the Disney spoofs.

All I know about TIVO...

[nijk]

...is that Adam Corolla was always talking about it. Man, how I miss when his show "Loveline" was good. Maybe he'll move to Seattle now.

Why's cable out?

[thundergeek]

I can see it now...

It's thanksgiving, the big game is on, you and your 15 buds are sitin around your 32in plaz and the 7.1 dd system makes you think you're sitting in the stands, while in the comfort of a lay-z-boy.

Cable goes out, and norton pops up on your screen, "You have a virus, please reboot with your norton recovery cd."

Only an idiot would put the turkey day game on line like this.

This is good news

[nysus]

Just one virus and I'll get free porn for life.

Re:This is good news

[saldek]

Of course it'll probably be random images of the goatse-guy and tubgirl when you least expect it, but hey - porn is porn!

Re:This is good news

[EvilTwinSkippy]

When did we subscribe to the PWN#0 channel? (clickety clickety) It seems to be the only thing on today.

Well at least there aren't any commercials...

Set top box?

[jm92956n]

Hasn't Microsoft tried the set-top box approach before? Didn't WebTV fail? Why might it work this time?

Oh, that's right: they're copying a service that's already been proved. Tivo--meet Apple.

Re:Set top box?

[drinkypoo]

PVR != STB. While the two have essentially identical hardware, the two are still not the same thing. After all, computers are more than the sum of their hardware, just as we are - there's software there too :)

Tivo is likely to fail due to regulation. Microsoft is likely to succeed, if only by subsidizing it with office. The second-generation Xbox will be the test of whether they can succeed with a business model like Tivo's.

I eagerly await the day when I own a high enough quality projector with cheap enough lamps to where I can just attach a PC, which will probably be running windows, to a projector in my living room. I'm not trying to do Tivo stuff, though. If I were I'd probably have to have the Xbox there too, to talk to a replaytv somewhere in the house :P

sad company culture

[Brigadier]

Why does it always seem that Microsft instead of trully being innovative ( ala apple) they always have to buy themselves into an existing market, then try to bull rush it with thier tremendous capital.

Re:sad company culture

[Ohreally_factor]

Why does it always seem that Microsft instead of trully being innovative ( ala apple) they always have to buy themselves into an existing market, then try to bull rush it with thier tremendous capital.

Apple has never bought its way into an existing markets ? (I'm sure there are other examples.)

I'm as big an Apple Zealot as any. I drink my koolaid first thing every morning. However, I do prefer a discussion that relies on facts, not misperceptions.

Re:sad company culture

[jrhass]

because (unfortunately for the consumer) it works!

Re:sad company culture

[nickscalise]

While Apple did buy the technology behind those products, they also heavily modified and improved on them too (except maybe shake - but give them time).

FCP was bought before it was a product. DVDStudioPro's tech was bought from Adaptec and made into DVDSP, there was no Logic Express before Apple bought it.

So, Apple, even why buying into markets, still innovates and puts their DNA in the software that they buy. It becomes an 'Apple' product.

Re:sad company culture

[Anonymous Coward]

K.. fine comments and all .. but simply on the Logic one .. by making an express version doesn't make Apple gods of the earth. Logic is a premier sequencing studio and has always been since its conception.. Way before Apple got its hands on it and canned the PC versions. I'll agree with Apple being somewhat innovative on the software end .. but when it comes to hardware they get way too much credit from other companies work.

Re:sad company culture

[nickscalise]

Who said anything about Apple being gods of the earth? Are you expressing some pent up frustration?

Maybe the Logic point was a little weak, but give them time on that too.

Secondly, Apple probably shouldn't be allowed credit for their employees work either, right?

Isn't another company doing work for Apple just a glorified employee?

No Name Company: "Apple, look at this cool widget, would you like to buy it?"
Apple: "Make it look/work/do like this and we have a deal."
NNC: "OK great, how do you like it now"
Apple: "Here's your check"

Is that not very similar to the Boss/Employee relationship? Give credit where credit is due.

Re:sad company culture

[mark0]

You may think "It's the early bird that gets the worm." Microsoft thinks "It's the second mouse that gets the cheese."\

Re:sad company culture

[Anonymous Coward]

Credit yes .. Fanboyism no. My main gripe is all the credit Apple gets for the PowerPC Chip G4/G5 .. which is made by IBM .. Due to clever marketing people think Apple are the gods of supercomputing now. They used to even claim their G4 was one. Places like the UK banning the ads because they were misleading. Perhaps i have some hostility towards the uber elitist culture they have created.. but the amount of money Apple charges .. including simple patches .. They have sold out their customers.. But hey .. uber sells right? Just like all the audiophiles with their tube amps playing digital sources .. its all for show.

And there's also....

[AtariAmarok]

There's also the fun of when some kid in Hong Kong gains control of your TV through an unsecure port and starts to change the channels on you.

Re:And there's also....

[punkin]

I would be more worried about some shit hot Indian programmer hacking the box so that it only plays Bollywood movies!

Re:And there's also....

[Thud457]

Here's some emberrassingly prominent BSODs for ya!

Re:And there's also....

[WindBourne]

Wait till the bill arrives for all that porn that your MS box decided that you needed. There are going to be some very pissed off ppl.

Will it include Binky, the Helpful Paperclip

[CharonX]

Hmmm....
I wonder if it will include Binky, the Helpful Paperclip...
"Hi Buddy, looks like you are watching Porn - do you want me to inform all people you know?
Press [YES] to confirm or [YES] to continue

Re:Will it include Binky, the Helpful Paperclip

[Megaweapon]

If they stick to their usual approach they will have an animated remote control (complete with big eyes) named "Remotey".

Re:Will it include Binky, the Helpful Paperclip

[Thud457]

No, it'll be drawn from the previous, obsolete paradigm.
Paperclip:Office :: antenna:DVR
So it'll be Auntie antenna, a rabbit with rabbit ears.

"subscriber"

[Rusty Nuts]

Nothing in life is free anymore except oxygen, and don't your breathe on that either.

MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[hkb]

Is there anyone who can offer genuine non-zealous commentary on Microsoft's MCE2005?

I'm currently running SageTV (http://www.sage.tv) for my PVR needs. Before that I was running MythTV which I really liked, however it was really flakey.

I wonder how MCE2005 compares to either or both of the two.

TIA

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[blues5150]

How is Sage TV? I ran across that the other day while researching MythTV.

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's my analysis:

ATI Media Center is good for occasional usage.
MythTV is good.
SnapStream is between ATI and MythTV on the goodness scale.
Windows MCE is way the hell out of my budget.

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[truthsearch]

I can't, but the guy(s) at Microsoft Monitor comment on it regularly. It's the blog for Joe Wilcox at Jupiter Research. Google search of their site.

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[Steve525]

How is Sage TV?

I like it. The interface is pretty polished, and it can do anything I expect a PVR to do. I've written extensively about it over at www.byopvr.com. http://www.byopvr.com/Journal+index-jop-browse-mod e-story-uid-525.html

From what I read BeyondTV is perhaps even more polished, but SageTV supports the hardware decoder of the PVR-350, which was important to me.

My gripes have been it's been challenging to set up, and displaying the user interface on the PVR-350 is problematic. (The PVR-350 problems are almost certainly the driver's fault, not SageTV's. Other software that puts a UI on the PVR-350, MythTV and GB-PVR, have the same problems).

The advantages to this setup over other TiVo or MCE, is that the files can easily be edited and burned to DVD for safe keeping, plus you can use your computer to play games, view pictures, downloaded moview, etc.

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[donbrock]

Two words about SageTV: Microsoft Windows. Nuff said.

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[hkb]

Thanks for the link to your site, Steve.


My gripes have been it's been challenging to set up, and displaying the user interface on the PVR-350 is problematic. (The PVR-350 problems are almost certainly the driver's fault, not SageTV's. Other software that puts a UI on the PVR-350, MythTV and GB-PVR, have the same problems).

They must be a driver problem. It wasn't any effort to get everything going out the SVIDEO OUT on my PVR-350 card with SageTV. There's some setting to "send gui out the SVIDEO port" in SageTV and it just works.

The PVR-350 and MythTV, is of course, a nightmare, but once you know how to do it it tends to stay easy. You need to absolute latest ivtv drivers and the latest ivtv fb driver for X and they MUST be the same version. The dev for this X driver isn't very organized, so it turns into a lengthy affair.

The advantages to this setup over other TiVo or MCE, is that the files can easily be edited and burned to DVD for safe keeping, plus you can use your computer to play games, view pictures, downloaded moview, etc.

Yep. I routinely use my PC normally whilst all the SageTV junk is running out the video out port of the PVR-350. I even play a lot of GTA:VC while its on and don't notice a performance degradation except for occasionally high cpu usages.

I'll have to check out BeyondTV, hmm

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[radish]

Don't forget Meedio.

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[enrico_suave]

although not free as in speech... GBPVR does some of the same UI through the pvr350's tv out as SageTV (and mythTV with the special IVTV drivers)

fwiw I've got a review of sagetv 2.0 with screenshots n' stuff... if you wanted to contrast with Steve525's experience (hey steve!)

IMHO the main differences between sagetv and beyondtv is this:

equally polished and tivo-esque, more or less

SageTV has more media htpc-esque functionality like mp3 jukebox, photo's, etc...
the previously mentioned pvr350 UI overlay support

BeyondTV has remote scheduling capability (i.e. login from work and schedule a show/etc)

BeyondTV supports software encoding cards like ATI AIW whereas sagetv/et al will only use hardware encoding cards.

*scratches head* I think that's in a nutshell...

I'll be building a knoppmyth box soon, but don't have the hands on opinion of mythtv besides what I garner from the mailing lists/etc...

There's a ton of other options out there... new on the block is Meedio (formerly the free as in beer, myHTPC.net)... and a bunch of others Media Portal is OSS... uhm... freevo on linux, whatever GOTTV's latest incarnation is...

e.

Re:MCE2005 vs. SageTV vs. MythTV?

[blues5150]

I wanted to thank you, enrico_suave, and Steve525 for your replies. I spent the rest of the day checking out SageTV. You both answered a lot of the questions that I had.

As one poster noted the only problem is that SageTV is Windows based. While I'd like to run a Linux PVR ala MythTV, my knowledge of Linux is severly lacking. Not to mention the Wife factor, if she can't easily run the get the PVR/TV up and running it is a no go.

"Control", eh

[Megaweapon]

"Control and customize your viewers' experience.

With Microsoft TV Foundation Edition's new UI Customizer tool, you can make changes to the viewer's user interface, preview the changes, and then almost instantaneously publish them to the viewer's set-top box."

Gee, thanks Redmond, I was looking for an outside corporation to control my "experience" (there's that damned word again from the dot-com era). I like how they'll just have the vendor just make bulk changes then push them to my set-top box without asking me if I want an update or not. I suppose that's part of the agreement, though. Looks like another MS service I'll be ignoring.

Name recognition is a liability here

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone who has a DVR (that I know) calls it TiVo, or says they'll "TiVo it" even though it's not a TiVo. They don't care where the product comes from, and that's Microsoft's entry point. They can take a loss on their product and beat out the competitors.

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, TiVo will be the next "Kleenex"

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[Anonymous Coward]

... and that is where TiVo needs to build a brand akin to "Intel Inside" Useless technically, but sure sells!

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[jekewa]

Or "Xerox."

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[blackmonday]

Everyone who uses tissues calls it Kleenex. Name recognition does not itself destroy competition.

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[tntguy]

Call it...sTeVo

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but Microsoft sure has a habit of it.

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[demmer]

napster?

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[Frogbert]

I'm going to print that comment out and Xerox it for everyone in the office so they can Blu-tac it to their walls.

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[Anonymous Coward]

Other examples that name recognition does not destroy competition: Chapstick and Band-Aids.

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[lucason]

Everyone I know who own a DVR calls is a mythbox.

We don't even talk about watching TV anymore, we call it watching the Myth.

However, I duely consions of the fact that this is due only to the fact that neiter TiVo NOR Microsoft have shown any intention to advance into the European (mainland not UK) market.

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[StikyPad]

Tell that to all the other popular facial tissue and plastic bandage brands. Oh wait..

Re:Name recognition is a liability here

[Mr Smidge]

What country do you live in?

I've never encountered anybody in my lifetime who has said 'Kleenex' when they meant tissue, here in the UK.

Comcast + MS?

[gad_zuki!]

Wow, now there's a losing combination. Here in Chicago Comcast is long running corporate joke. Very poor service both in their TV and Cable modem divisions and a broadband network they can't seem to keep up for very long.

I switched to DirecTV w/ Tivo long ago and will probably give that up eventually as more shows become available on bitorrent. Considering I only watch perhaps three shows regularly, its overkill. Also, Rupert-Owned DirecTV with DirecTivo does have its downsides.

Then again, never underestimate the power of bundling services.

Re:Comcast + MS?

[thorndt]

Just out of curiosity: what three shows?

Great. Just great.

[Spencerian]

Not that I worry much about Microsoft. I worry more about Comcast. They control more of my life, in the format in which I receive my home internet connection and cable television, than any other entity right now.

What if, in their infinite wisdom, that Comcast requires that you use a Windows box to take advantage of "special features" of their device that MS creates propriatarily? In simpler language, I am used to Microsoft making things that don't fully integrate with my Mac OS arrangement (and generally, I usually don't care since I have plenty of alternatives with my platform). However, Comcast loves to charge its customers for things they don't or can't use, and it's hard enough to know exactly how they are sticking it to me as it is.

On the plus side, they may be a company that I worry about, but my cable internet from Comcast is 2.5MBits and whomps my office connection easily.

Re:Great. Just great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Read *theoretical* 2.5Mpbs
As if any one else is on your cable loop they grab your bandwidth.

I have Comcast cable internet too, but it crawls at weekends for this reason.

Furthermore, you don't get a real IP address which means you can't ssh/telnet/whatever to your own box from work, which also sucks.

Re:Great. Just great.

[cens0r]

I simply use no-ip.com. I run a simple shell script on my linux box that makes sure that my ip is updated with the service every 30 minutes and voila, I can telnet/ssh/whatever into my home box from work.

In both my neighborhoods in seattle I've never had to worry about too many people on my cable loop. I'm almost always limited by the source and not the width of my pipe.

Re:Great. Just great.

[megarich]

Move to direct tv or better yet don't watch tv at all. Yea its a tough solution but sometimes you have to suffer when you try to stick it to da man!

The Mule not available to comment...

[Anonymous Coward]

...on Microsoft's foundation. But that's just like The Mule not be up front.

Re:The Mule not available to comment...

[aceat64]

No wait, it all makes sense now... the scrawy figure, world domination... Bill Gates IS The Mule!

Channel choices

[AtariAmarok]

Don't forget all the channel choices on Microsoft TV:

MSNBC

MSCBS

MSABC

MSFOX

The History Channel (sample show: Microsoft invents the GUI with Windows 1.0)

EA-SPN. (the sports network where you get to watch guys play sports videogames)

Animal Planet. (featuring the microsoft mouse)

Lifetime (featuring details of how long the Microsoft EULA binds you)

MTV (featuring Ballmer Beach Dance Blast!)

Re:Channel choices

[bludstone]

And here I was looking forward to the Mattel and Mars Bar Quick Energy Chocobot Hour.

Re:Channel choices

[Eberlin]

MS-TechTV: First off, we don't need anyone mentioning G4 in it to imply a Macintosh connection. X-Play will now be known as XP. There will no longer be any mention of alternative operating systems on The ScreenSavers. The show, by the way, will be renamed to Dot-SCR. Martin Sargeant will change the show's name to MS-PowerPoint.

Game consoles other than the X-Box will not be recognized. There will be Halo 2 marathons, nothing else. Microsoft staff will be interviewing and studying Tallarico in order to upgrade Clippy, making the paperclip more obnoxious and annoying.

Not that I care, of course...I've stopped watching the channel about as soon as G4 came in and bastardized the whole thing.

Finally!

[Zemplar]

Tbe best reason yet to stop watching TV!

And it will drive kids away in droves.

Re:Finally!

[Megaweapon]

I'm about ready to drop my cable service just because there isn't jack sh*t on these days. It's cheaper to rent a few movies every weekend than deal with the freakin' cable company.

(just about) anything is an improvement for cc

[LinuxHam]

I have Comcast's current HDTV/PVR offering, and it pales in comparison to my series 1 standalone TiVO. To get a season pass, you search by title, and individually record each episode that shows up in the search results.

Just about everything you like about the TiVO ain't there yet for "Com-assed". The one big thing the box has going for it is direct firewire access to the current video stream including on demand content, hdtv, and stuff from the dvr library. Of course, once MS gets loaded on the box, you know they're going to lock it down.

Re:(just about) anything is an improvement for cc

[Greyfox]

Betcha Tivo has a patent on season passes. You know why they didn't use the familiar grid layout when it first came out? TV Guide had a patent on displaying and selecting shows in the grid format. Either tivo licensed it or it got thrown out of court for being too trivial (I'd check which but I can't really be bothered.)

One huge advantage Tivo has over anyone else entering the market is that since they were there first, they got all the patents. It will be difficult to make a commercial offering as user friendly as Tivo's becauase of that. Though I could see Microsoft et al infringing on all the patents and worrying about it later, in court. If the Tivo folks have any brains, they'll keep a damn close eye on the Microsoft offering and issue C&Ds before the product even hits the beta stage.

Re:(just about) anything is an improvement for cc

[drmike0099]

I just got it as well, and my first impression was that the people who designed it had not used any other DVR on the market, and are like "Tivo-what?" The UI has a lot to be desired, but I still use it for the ability to tape my shows.

That being said, they also "upgraded" me from my old AT&T plan to the new Comcast equivalent when they put in my DVR without telling me, which means I have to pay $8 more per month and I lost the STARZ package. So to get that back, I gotta pay another $10/month. So my new DVR is costing me $28/month ($18 to get my old channels, $10 for DVR). Which explains why I'm going to switch to satellite...

Re:(just about) anything is an improvement for cc

[Anonymous Coward]

I have something of the opposite experience - my Comcast DVR will record first run episodes of a show, but the firewire port is inactive. Strange...

Re:(just about) anything is an improvement for cc

[cens0r]

I didn't get upgraded... in fact I still have my old AT&T plan, paying my old AT&T price, for a package that comcast no longer sells. They even let me move across town with it. They told me as long as I don't leave their coverage area, I'm free to keep this plan at this price.

Re:(just about) anything is an improvement for cc

[Anonymous Coward]

"You know why they didn't use the familiar grid layout when it first came out? TV Guide had a patent on displaying and selecting shows in the grid format. Either tivo licensed it or it got thrown out of court for being too trivial (I'd check which but I can't really be bothered.)"

TV Guide/Gemstar/whatever sued TiVo in court. After a while, they settled. TV Guide is now a shareholder in TiVo, there is co-branding going on, and yes, you can select the grid format but it is incredibly slow to scan, just like it is on the cable boxes. The TV Guide Channel also sends video clips with their anchors to some of us TiVo owners too.

"One huge advantage Tivo has over anyone else entering the market is that since they were there first, they got all the patents."

Not entirely true. Replay also owns a lot of patents related to DVR/PVR technologies. Both companies came close to suing each other out of existence until they decided to cross-license their stuff. TiVo didn't even sue Microsoft with their last outing of UltimateTV. So far, besides Replay, TiVo has only sued Echostar/Dish Network for the DISH Player DVR for infringement. You also have to figure that companies like Hauppage must also have patents related to this technology as well.

The Lynxpro

Re:(just about) anything is an improvement for cc

[LinuxHam]

Which explains why I'm going to switch to satellite...

Okay, but remember, its a $1,000 box for sat hdtv and you don't get your local DTV channels upconverted to HDTV. That, and the fact that Comcast will never let any satellite provider offer Comcast Sportsnet (home of the Flyers) to the Philadelphia market are what are keeping me locked in. Its just not worth losing HDTV (equivalent) for Fox NFL games just for one season (hopefully) only to return when hockey comes back. Particularly when the Eagles are doing so well.

I'm lucky enough to live in one of the 10 towns nationwide that Verizon is rolling out their fibre -to-the-home, but I live in a condo, and they'll never get fibre to me. They chose their test markets specifically to compete with Comcast in their markets with high HDTV and cablemodem penetration. Hell, I'd move out of the condo and into a house just to get that! 5Mb/2Mb Internet and a full channel lineup including HDTV content!

I thought they already did this

[eno2001]

There used to be an ad for some kind of MSN TV device that could (gasp!) record two shows at once. Whatever hapened to that. It was called something like "MSN New TV" or something like that.

Re:I thought they already did this

[Jeff DeMaagd]

They called it UltimateTV. They had yanked it a couple years ago.

Now, there is Media Center.

They tried this already

[signe]

Microsoft was responsible for the software that runs on the Dish Network Dishplayer (7200-series). And they sucked at it too. The thing crashed constantly. At least now that Dish is responsible for the software directly, it works a little better, but they're still dealing with the horrible base that MS laid.

I don't think TiVO has a thing to worry about.

-Todd

Re:They tried this already

[PreferredNom]

Microsoft was responsible for the windowing system that ran on the PC Clone (486-series). And they sucked at it too. The thing crashed constantly.

I don't think that Apple has a thing to worry about.

Re:They tried this already

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

"Microsoft was responsible for the software that runs on the Dish Network Dishplayer (7200-series)."

No, they weren't. 95% of the DishPlayer software was written by WebTV *before* Microsoft purchased them.

Echostar's boxes *all* suck because Echostar doesn't have a formal QA process. They use their users to beta test.

That's why I have DirecTV/TiVo.

Seriously?

[AtariAmarok]

"when is the last time you saw a blue screen in XP?"

Seriously? It was yesterday, during boot-up. I had to power it off. Thankfully, it did not blue-screen during the next boot.

Re:Seriously?

[Best ID Ever!]

Yes, I've seen it a few times in XP as well, on my laptop. Usually when my wireless card gets jiggled while it's booting.

It says something to the effect of "try rebooting, but if you see this again, you're probably screwed."

Re:Seriously?

[advocate_one]

closing the lid during boot and a falling over event is guaranteed when the lid is subsequently opened again...

Re:Seriously?

[ONU CS Geek]

Hold the right Control Key and Press Scroll Lock twice.

Oh. Save your work before you do this.

Crash on Command.

Re:Seriously?

[StikyPad]

I have that happen all the time.. I thought it was just me. Any time I cold boot, it BSOD's on the first attempt, and I have to find a pen to poke the reset button. It never notices that it failed to boot though, it just tries again like the Little Engine That Could.

Basically, the moral of the story is: Even Microsoft can get an OS up and running if it tries long enough.

Awesome!

[I'm Spartacus!]

CatsCradle writes "The Seattle Times has an article about Microsoft's Foundation and their new partnership with Comcast to provide a TIVO like service."

Thanks for that link to the Microsoft homepage! I've been looking for that.

Slashdot comes through again!!!

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nothing. There once was a guy who made a comment here and thought he was sticking it to MS by mentioning them in his comment without providing a link.

Maybe some good can come of it?

[Dlugar]

Perhaps the 900lb gorilla can force the "entertainment industry" into allowing such features as commercial-skip or other previously frowned upon features to become standard fare for Tivo-like devices?

Dlugar

Re:Maybe some good can come of it?

[gfxguy]

With Microsoft's relationship with content providers, they will probably eliminate the fast forward button altogether.

Competition is good

[jfried]

Tivo has name, and proven track record.
Microsoft has money and can buy name and track record.

That aside, competition is most aways a good thing it drives up inovation. The more brands availible the better off we are as consumers.

But look at other comcast products, G4, after the merger of G4 and techtv, they took one crapy network and one decent network(Techtv), and produced a crapy network.

Now i can use my comcast DVR to make sure i dont ever have to see a retarded G4 show again :)

Re:Competition is good

[Anonymous Coward]

tech Tv was heading into the toilet. they overspent on everything and were having problems.

LEO was overpriced talent. They refused to meet his request for rock-star wages and let him go.

The studio for ScreenSavers was horridly overpriced and in a high rent district. Yes it's cheeze now but they need to rebuild the show from ground up.

the only show and set exactly they kept same was Xplay. it is the absolute highest rated show on the network and made 90% of the income.

give it some time. they know that right now it sucks donkey balls. (Ok who cares about watching video game intros for an hour?)

Re:Competition is good

[bleckywelcky]

Comcast should have listened. Before the merge of G4 and TechTV I used to tune into TechTV several times a week just to see what was on, and sometimes I would tune into TechTV for a program that I know is on. Immediately after the merger I continued tuning in, but kept running into G4 programming that was absolutely horrible. After about 1 or 2 weeks of G4/TechTV programming, I just quit and I haven't tuned into G4/TechTV since. And I haven't given it a second thought either, this is the first time I've really looked back at the whole situation since.

Re:Competition is good

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now i can use my comcast DVR to make sure i dont ever have to see a retarded G4 show again :)"

I hope you meant that you are simply not watching any of the G4 originated programming, as opposed to everything that is aired on G4TechTV which still includes the former TechTV shows such as "The Screen Savers," "X Play" and "Unscrewed with Martin Sargent." Incidentally, all three of those TechTV originated shows are the 3 highest rated shows on the combined network. Unscrewed is the highest and is getting the most media attention. Martin Sargent had a nice write-up in the New York Times a month ago.

But if you are blocking out all the programming, that's fine by me. That's one less person I have to compete against for the Digital Digs Dash competition going on now...

DVR supports HDTV

[piser]

People are missing the point here. Now with comcast you can get an affordable HDTV DVR (as opposed to the $1000 diretivo model).

Check it out:
http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/dct6412.as p

That's pretty good for $10/month.

Re:DVR supports HDTV

[Megaweapon]

$1000? Man, if Microsoft can pull off a cheaper HDTV box then that could very well kill off Tivo completely.

Re:DVR supports HDTV

[searchr]

I don't get it. Comcast ALREADY has a DVR. The article mentions that the Microsoft software can be added to the existing DVR box, so who cares? Comcast already offers an all-in-one cable box DVR for $8 a month (in the Seattle area) with a 120gb harddrive and HDTV compatible, and its even dual channel, so you can record one show while watching another. What does the Microsoft deal get them? Why would I want another set of menues and instructions and restrictions (not to mention the blue screen of death while watching the Sopranos)

Re:DVR supports HDTV

[fupeg]

You have an excellent point. I have had a DirecTV/TiVo for several years and I have an HDTV, and thus I am screwed. My only HD option costs $800+. Plus I think I might have to replace my dual-lnb dish as well. Well of course I have choices, but suddenly there is a huge premium. And just to make things worse, the NFL has re-signed with DirecTV. Time to look on eBay...

Re:DVR supports HDTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Your option is right in front of you: A regular PC with a video card that has DVI, the PCHDTV3000 and Mythtv. And all the features you can dream up.

Re:DVR supports HDTV

[fupeg]

Except for features such as "hassle free" and "easy to use"...

Im sure it will rock!

[t_allardyce]

Knowning Microsofts take on DRM im sure this will be a brilliant advance on current PVRs: Won't let you skip adverts, will only let you record selected programs, will delete recordings after 3 days or less, won't let you give recordings to anyone else or take them off the unit, and will phone home to give your viewing habbits to the FBI for analysis in the War on Terror(r).

MythTV

[mrnick]

I think MythTV is the best solution :)

Example MS TV BSOD:

[Anonymous Coward]

STOP: 0x0000000A (0x0000015a, 0x0000001c, 0x00000000, 0x80116bf4)
WHAT_CHU_TALKIN_BOUT_WILLIS?

Please enjoy viewing this Gary Colman bitmap while the dump file is being created...

Three tries to get it right?

[Drakino]

Lets see:

Microsoft + Echostar = DishPlayer
Microsoft + DirecTV = Ultimate TV
Microsoft + Comcast = ?

I actually owned a DishPlayer. The problems with it to me wern't horrible, but it did cause a class action lawsuit to be brought against Echostar. Their new PVRs never matched the features of the DishPlayer, but they at least were stable.

Thoughts in response

[deemzzzz_k]

Tivo's stock price has dropped 4% from yesterday's close on the announcement and over 6% from earlier this week... People are in a state of panic and for good reason. TiVo has been building up their Tivo to go services and working out rights management details with the NFL and other interested parties. They're also rumored to be including full Netflix movie download services in their next box. Tivo has been network agnostic while the MS box is geared towards comcast customers. This gives MS both a leg up and a problem. The advantage is in being able to offer specific PPV/pay per download movie choices while keeping it under the cable company's control may be a weakness. Also note that this is one cable company taking on the new box. Unless we start hearing that these boxes are also broadband web browsers and offer new features bundled in with comcast's cable modem or that other cable companies are joining on, Tivo is in good shape. They still have DirectTv and retail space that MS would have a while to catch up in. My final thought is Microsoft's trump card. If they somehow manage to integrate control of the set top box into the OS (do I smell anti trust case?) they could very well be able to kill off Tivo.

MCE2005 is not about TIVO

[sevinkey]

It's about using Internet distribution for video content instead of having to wait for your show to come on so you can TiVO it.

It's pretty expensive as a PVR. It's the best tivo I've seen as far as user interface, but it's not THAT much more usable.

Big problem at the moment is price. The system we're using for testing at work runs $2500. But we can expect the price will go down, just like DVD players, CD-Burners, etc.

And although I'm developing for the system, I'm an Apple zealot, not a Microsoft one.

Nothing could be worse than Tivo

[puremisery]

I just hate the noise it makes when you cycle through the channels! I know it's petty but I know what I like and don't like.

Re:Nothing could be worse than Tivo

[BryanR1977]

then go into the prefs and turn the sounds off. PArent should be modded troll. No geek tivo owner would have missed this in the prefs.

Re:Nothing could be worse than Tivo

[ckelly5]

then turn it off. It's an audio option in the setup.

Eats, shoots, and leaves

[AtariAmarok]

emit's Bone's "He's

One of the above words has correct use of the apostrophe. You decide which one!

Re:Eats, shoots, and leaves

[Troed]

Two of them has.

Forget skipping commericals...

[Anita Coney]

According to the article you'll be able to "pause and rewind live television broadcasts" and record shows. There is no mention of any ability to fastforward or skip commericals. Thus it is highly unlikely that any such feature exists.

Tivo was a huge giant step forward for consumers, Microsoft's taking us a couple steps back.

Re:Forget skipping commericals...

[eison]

ReplayTV is the one with auto commercial skip (old versions only, they took it out of new ones for a lawsuit settlement). TiVo can only manually fast-forward - fear of lawsuits (or a 30-second skip can be manually enabled through a backdoor - but still, no auto commercial skip like Replay used to have).

In short, expect to forget skipping commercials on *all* new commercial PVRs for legal rather than technical reasons, so it isn't a strike against this particular one.

Lifetime subscription?

[reidconti]

This is why you don't buy a lifetime subscription from anyone that Microsoft might ever want to try to compete with.

Too little, too late.

[keryeski]

Microsoft is trying to dominate every market they can. This became evident when they entered the console market after showing no interest in console gaming in the past. Tivo has a pretty well-established reputation already, so I don't see Microsoft getting very far so soon.

Comcast

[truthsearch]

Comcast, who I also dislike, is the biggest cable service provider in the US. Just like Microsoft they have a bad reputation, and just like Microsoft they're dominant in the market.

I think TimeWarner + AOL turned out to be a bigger joke. But that's because they didn't capitalize on their partnership at all. They had a huge opportunity and they blew it.

HP is trying it now

[Cheeko]

I'm not sure what was contained in various previous offerings, but currently HP has begun offering a home media center running Microsofts offering. It seems to be the DVR + everything but the kitchen sink.

Here is a link to the offering from HP. Seems a little expensive, but I haven't seen one in person to know exactly how powerful it is.

I've talked with friends about building a simple linux system to do all this and interface it with a home LAN, and we all agree that you could do it for a lot less than 2 grand.

Beware the Broadcast Flag

[EvanKai]

Putting Microsoft between you and your content seems like a mistake... even if the hardware is cheap. You have 233 day and counting to get your broadcast flag free capture cards.

TiVo needs to position themselves as the Google of DVRs and adopt the "Do No Evil" policy.

Tivo already does this

[xswl0931]

My Tivo automatigically calls home and downloads updates and has been doing this since day one years ago. DirectTv has already changed the logo that used to say Philips Tivo to Direct TV. They've made updates to the UI which were (thankfully) an improvement. So what's new?

I've lost my thunder

[OverflowingBitBucket]

Here I was thinking I could make some quip about this new service recording and inserting additional ads into your recorded content, and tag a fast "5:Funny". Something like this:

"I hear Microsoft plan to go for an untapped market niche neglected by the TiVo. This new recorder records just the ads around the program, as well as inserting a few of its own."

Surefire positive moderation and reassurance for my meaningless existence centered around Slashdot karma right? Well, it seems the comedians at Microsoft have already stolen my thunder. From the Microsoft Foundation page...

Sell and secure HDTV homes.
Promote offerings with targeted ads and recommendations.
Insert ads and promotions...
Control and customize your viewers' experience.

It seems that they have they thought of all my best gags and implemented them as actual features. Dammit. What a sad day when a monolithic company can spent thousands on marketing a product whose primary purpose is to deny a Slashdotter the simple pleasure of a two-line quip. *runs and cries*

Re:I've lost my thunder

[OverflowingBitBucket]

ISP Subscription: $25
Second-hand PC: $200
Receiving a +5 Funny on a comment deliberately mentioning making an alternate post aiming for a +5 Funny moderation thus obtaining the nirvana of meta-humour...

.... Priceless.

Well, at least one good thing will come from this:

[multiOSfreak]

Since MS is now in the game, legal arguments against DVR technology are futile (ie - media conglomerates saying that it's eating into ad sales and such). It might be restricted all to hell with DRM perhaps, but it won't be stomped to death by TV channel magnates who say it's only purpose is to distribute copyrighted content.

The degradation of TechTV

[AtariAmarok]

Are you talking about TechTV turning into the "nothing but guys yammering about videogames, and oh, Screen Savers too!" network? The G4 stuck on the front of the name is particularly retro, as Apple has been rolling out faster G5's for quite some time now.

Yo Tro

[AtariAmarok]

Tro, there an old TV show called Star Trek. One character was named "Bones". He was not named "Bone".

Re:Yo Tro

[Troed]

... which makes it "Bones'" - with an apostrophe. The _use_ of it being correct, but not the placement.

Two Words

[qray]

Ultima TV.

So, whatever happened to Ultima TV? Microsoft didn't fair too well in that battle. Maybe with help Microsoft can enter the market. Honestly if they can up with something that performs better, I'd like to see TiVo get some competition because I'm not real happy with the overall performance of their existing systems

Is this a signature line?

Wow

[longbot]

And I thought the shitty boxes specific to the particular cable companies crashed a lot.

Now when they fail, we'll have BSODs on TVs too!

Second try at a Microsoft PVR

[tgibbs]

This is Microsoft's second attempt to crack this market. The first one, Ultimate TV went nowhere. But the reports I've heard from Ultimate TV owners have been pretty positive. So Microsoft isn't exactly going into this from scratch.

Re:Second try at a Microsoft PVR

[nvrrobx]

Actually, this would be the third attempt.

I had a DishNetwork DishPlayer - it was the predecessor to Ultimate TV. Single tuner, crashed a lot, etc etc.

Re:Second try at a Microsoft PVR

[harlows_monkeys]

This is Microsoft's second attempt to crack this market. The first one, Ultimate TV went nowhere. But the reports I've heard from Ultimate TV owners have been pretty positive. So Microsoft isn't exactly going into this from scratch

I've got a DirecTV UTV. When I bought it, the features were slightly behind the Tivo of the day for searching, but it had PIP, which I thought I wanted.

The first software update after I got it made it match Tivo, and the second software update made it better. It is interesting to note that the second update was AFTER they stopped selling these.

It has run quite well. In the nearly three years I've had it, there have been maybe two glitches where I had to reboot.

Re:Second try at a Microsoft PVR

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol The site says 'TV Like you've never seen it".

Hmmm.. until today, I hadn't seen it, tomorrow I won't remember I had... Maybe it should be.. "MSNTV... Like you'll ever want to see it".

What about Moxi?

[Anonymous Coward]

Comcast and Digeo announced back in April they were in trials with the Moxi DVR. And, the Moxi is being deployed with Charter. I wonder if this MS deal will affect any plans for Moxi with Comcast?

Subjects!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure everyone is happy about this.

M$ likenesses, anyone?

Improved cable line-up

[AtariAmarok]

Now, doesn't everyone's channel selection need to be embraced and extended?

TiVo will survive like Apple still survives

[micksterama]

They have a loyal following of users. TiVo will be smart enough to keep on reinventing themselves. It's a heck of lot easier to set up a TiVo than a Windows Media Center. With TiVo you can get someone on the line for Tech Support pretty quickly and toll-free. For Microsoft...don't even get me started... TiVo won't suffer from the need for constant security patches. Imagine how much hacking will go on with WIndows Media Centers vs. a TiVo?

i woulder steer clear of anything

[asv108]

Offered by Comcast or Microsoft, but a join effort between both these companies? Thats a recipe for a very bad product. Speaking of Comcast, last weekend I went down to stay at friend's in Philly. They did not set their newly arrived Comcast cable modem yet, so i offered to hook it up.

So with the three different cable modem providers I had in the past, you simply hook up the cable modem and go, but not Comcast. Once you open your browser for the first time, you are directed to some setup page. But the page states that you must be using a windows or OSX box, apparently linux is no good.. So I grabbed my ibook out of the trunk of the car and booted it up. Booted up safari and of course, the installer requires IE! I called support but got crap responses from people who sounded like they were randomly picked off the street. I'm moving to Philadelphia soon but it will be a cold day in hell before i buy anything from Comcast.

More Microsoft Innovation!

[kkovach]

"This is going to fundamentally change people's perspective on television," said Moshe Lichtman, corporate vice president of Microsoft's television division.

Uh, earth to Moshe. Our perspective on television has already changed dramatically over the past 3 to 5 years (How long has TiVo been around? I know I've had one for at least 4 years.), and it was all done without Microsoft.

I'm sure this is just the beginning of the giant bullshit marketing plan describing all their upcoming TV "innovation".

- Kevin

I should pay for a slash dot subscription

[Spackler]

This was a hanging breaking ball, right down the center of the plate. I could have knocked it out of the park. BSOD, tried it, ultimate, Media Edition, Green Screen, man, there were just so may easy +5 jokes. Alas, first post was not to be.

Time Travel? Temporal Flux? Gimme a hint.

[jeff.paulsen]

According to the article you'll be able to "pause and rewind live television broadcasts" and record shows. There is no mention of any ability to fastforward or skip commericals. Thus it is highly unlikely that any such feature exists.

How do you propose to "fast forward" over live television?

If there were any issues with it not being able to fast forward over recorded commercials, somone at AVSForum would surely say something. Nobody has yet.

Nothing has changed

[AtariAmarok]

"Uh, earth to Moshe. Our perspective on television has already changed dramatically over the past 3 to 5 years "

Dramatically? Try little at all. A few people have PVRs now, but it is still a small number. More and more people record onto DVD instead of tape, but that is just a change-of-medium. Some people are net-surfing instead of watching TV, but that is also a gradual change. Nothing dramatic here.

Re:Nothing has changed

[kkovach]

1. I have no idea when anything is on. TiVo and season passes take care of it all for me.
2. I have all my music where ever I have a TV.
3. I have access to all the family photos there as well.
4. All through a wireless connection.
5. I get the look of death if I let a commercial play for longer than a second, for christ's sake!

This is pretty dramatic if you ask me.

- Kevin

Re:Nothing has changed

[AtariAmarok]

"This is pretty dramatic if you ask me"

Potentially dramatic, but not yet. I'd even say it is likely. But, with so few using PVR's right now, it is an exaggeration to claim that "our perspective" (meaning just about everyone) has changed.

Re:Nothing has changed

[kkovach]

Regardless of the number of people doing it, TV (and the media surrounding it) has changed quite a bit over the past 5 years.

My point is, that with statements like the one by Mr. (Mrs. ?) Lichtman, it looks to me like Microsoft is once again going to try and tell the world that they were the "innovators" that fundamentally changed the way people look at their TV, when we've been doing it for years now.

- Kevin

Screw This I'm setting up my GNURadio / MythTV Box

[kk49]

Plus it heats my home ;)

Any day now.

Anandtech

[bersl2]

They had a review of MCE2k5 (and MythTV) and Myth vs. MCE2k4).

Re:Anandtech

[hkb]

Ok, due to the "Windows Dancer" I will not be further evaluating MCE2005:

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/CE/MCE2005/d an cer.jpg

Who in the HELL at Microsoft thought that feature up?

Re:Anandtech

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that Weid Al?

Or somebody from a videoclip in the 80s?

MythTV will always win from MCEx, because MCEx isn't sufficiently customizable (hint: I customize by editing the source code).

There is one big advantage MS has in this

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to own both a TV and a computer. I spend a lot of money on my computer monitor, and I don't like the thought of forking out for a TV monitor as well.

I have been thinking for some time of putting my windows stuff on another computer
so that my linux partition can be secure. If I had a dedicated windows game machine with a $1k-$3k monitor, I would not want to have a HDTV monitor also, I would want this package.

Except, of course, that these guys are going to do such a shitty job that I might be better off wasting hardware so as to get decent software with no glitches during movies......

What MS is doing is the right strategic direction for the industry. TV and the computer should be integrated. It is just that they are so incompetent technically. If Steve Jobs was behind this, or a Linux player behind it, I'd be cheering.

Re:Yo Tro: Re: Yo (To Tro)

[AtariAmarok]

Yo'ure right.

Think BEFORE posting!

[Anita Coney]

It's a hard concept to understand, so sit down, stop chewing any gum, and let me explain. Once you "pause" live TV it's no longer "live." For example, on my homebuilt PVR, after I'm done pausing I can skip forward until I catch up with "real-time" programming. I'll use this feature for sports. I'll pause and go rake some leaves. Come back and be able to skip boring parts (e.g., injuries or commercials) until I catch up again.

Furthermore, I pointed out all the alleged features of the device. And none of those features involve fast forwarding or skipping. Now maybe it can fast-foward/skip, but you'd think they'd mention such a cool and useful feature if it existed.

What they are keeping quiet about....

[zmollusc]

.... is the DRM face recognition facility that deletes all your files if anyone else tries to watch.

Blue screen fix

[MachineShedFred]

You're right. You don't ever see a BSOD on XP because Microsoft "fixed" it by having it automatically reboot as soon as it does it by default.

Yup, no more BSOD! Just random reboots instead. Good work team!

Re:Blue screen fix

[I'm Spartacus!]

What do you call that, the Blue Screen of Reincarnation?

Re:Blue screen fix

[westlake]

You're right. You don't ever see a BSOD on XP because Microsoft "fixed" it by having it automatically reboot as soon as it does it by default.

if XP recovers from an error so quckly and reliably that the user is never aware of a problem, the fix is good enough. the event log is still there and the reboot can be turned off if you need or want to take a closer look.

Re:Blue screen fix

[leecn]

if XP recovers from an error so quckly and reliably that the user is never aware of a problem, the fix is good enough

yeah... so like if it recovered in 10 milliseconds that would be good enought for most people.

Re:Blue screen fix

[Thuktun]

Installing certain AVI codecs on my laptop gave Windows XP hissy-fits. It would bluescreen whenever I tried to play videos encoded with those.

However, it would pause, create a dump, and THEN reboot, not just instantly reboot.

Upon rebooting and logging in, it would prompt me to submit the dump to Microsoft for debugging. Uninstalling those codecs (actually, rolling back to a previous save point) fixed the problem.

Re:Blue screen fix

[MachineShedFred]

I guess for me, "recovering" from an error doesn't mean wishing it didn't happen and obfuscating it from the user.

My bad.

Re:Blue screen fix

[westlake]

I guess for me, "recovering" from an error doesn't mean wishing it didn't happen and obfuscating it from the user.
My bad.

Like I said, the Event Log is there whenever you feel the urge to read it, and you can switch off the automated recovery if you enjoy having your work interupted by errors that have no particular significance.

Re:Blue screen fix

[redsolo]

How can you say that it will recover when it reboots? If Im editing a document, and I have a BSOD (which happens to often), and then it reboots and leaves me in a clean state. How is that recovering? It is rebooting, not recovering my work. Recover is when it will handle the problem, and try to change it to the same state it was before the problem. Reboot gives a clean state. our in Programming, recover is exception handling, reboot is crashing programs.

Re:Blue screen fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Subtlety isn't your thing is it?

He's saying that he would rather they fix the cause of the error, or at least make it recoverable without blasting the whole system through a boot cycle then spend time on hiding the fact that it happened and leaving a less-than-knowlegable user that doesn't know about event logs and so forth (I hear there are a few million of them or so) from guessing wildly why their sweet new HP they just brought home from Fry's is randomly rebooting.

Quick, the clue train is leaving the station... better get your ticket!

Oh, no! UltimateTV is back!!!

[Warlock7]

This is ridiculous. How much money do they have to dump into a losing proposition?

Excellent comparison

[cuberat]

Part of TiVo's problem is that they are a subscription service. I got a PVR as part of my satellite setup, inluded in the base price. Cable companies are starting to do the same thing, and I've seen third-party PVRs for sale on a regular basis.

Why pay a monthly fee if you don't have to? Their business model is what will kill TiVo, not just Microsoft.

Re:Excellent comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is why I purchased a lifetime subscription for my Tivo when I bought it. I pay no monthly fees at all.

Granted the subscription is for the life of my Tivo box and not my life but this is acceptable to me because when the new line of boxes come out they usually offer a free upgrade path.

Face off

[AtariAmarok]

"is the DRM face recognition facility that deletes all your files if anyone else tries to watch"

Provided it is properly aligned, and the erasing head is aimed at the media and not at the viewer.

innovative?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't these guys come up with anything on their own?

think?

[MachineShedFred]

Wait...

You're asking someone to... think... before posting on Slashdot?

Are you new here?

Why I will switch from Tivo when this is available

[essell]

I love my standalone series 2 Tivo. I like the menu system, the ability to add additional storage, and the overall functionality. Sadly, Tivo will fall behind because it has committed too much time and too many resources to DirecTV. DirecTV will undoutably chew them up and spit them out at some point in favor of their own in-house developed DVR. DirecTV has no loyalties, including to its own customer base, with its record of extortion and threats for those customers who have shown interest in smartcard development. I wish very much that Tivo could survive without DirecTV, and focus its efforts elsewhere. Sadly, it doesn't look like Tivo is moving this direction.

First and foremost, Tivo has made no commitment to their customer base to offer a standalone or CableCard HD recorder. This is discouraging, at least... and it spells out the beginning of the end for this well-meaning company.

Secondly, when considering current digital cable content, the stream is sourced digitally, decoded to analog, and reencoded by Tivo. This result is less-than-optimal video quality. In fact, it's quite poor, even at the highest quality setting. I want higher quality recordings, even without consideration of HD.

So, I cannot record HD, do not have dual tuner support, and cannot access VOD content directly through Tivo. Even if Tivo WERE to develop an HD standlone record with CableCard support, it would be unable to access VOD and PPV content, based on CableCard specification.

Perhaps this isn't Tivo's fault. Maybe they did try to partner with cable providers and were beat out by a better MS offer. I want to give Tivo the benefit of the doubt here, but they are failing first on several other fronts which are only problems of Tivo itself.

Windows set-top boxes + Spamcast = nightmare...

[DocSnyder]

...for the rest of the world. Spamcast has a long history of not stopping trojaned customer PCs which relay billions of spam emails.

Now imagine several thousands or millions of Spamcast customers using Windows-powered set-top boxes. First thing spammers will do is get such a thing and examine it for possible exploits. Legitimate customers won't even get the idea that their set-top box could catch a virus or a trojan which could do harm to anyone. Most of them won't ever update their set-top box top fix known security holes. Why should they? Would Spamcast tell them to do so? Or even Microsoft?

So it won't take very long until the world gets hammered by the worst and biggest spam cluster the Internet has ever seen.

Yow! Seems like the natural stepping stone...

[bstarrfield]

A natural stepping stone - two monopolies helping each other expand their turf?

MS is a monopoly (let's not argue about it) - now their working with another (localized) monopoly to place their DVR boxes into our homes. Isn't this exactly what the DOJ-MS settlement was supposed to prevent?

Cable TV is, in many cases, an artificially created monopoly, and effectively the only option for individuals who want an expanded channel line up. Cable is a natural monopoly (there's no point in having multiple cable providers and capital costs going to each residence). But DVR's are not a natural monopoly. Any user should be able to user whatever DVR they want with their chosen service - whether sat or cabal. But the DVR provided by the cable company can change that circumstance.

The DVR's currently provided by Comcast are often (always) a combination of dvr and tuner. The DVR functions are turned on by the installer, possibly the central office. So how far, realistically, could we expect an MS DVR / Comcast Tuner box to cooperate with a third party DVR?

Cooperation between Comcast and MS is an effective bar to competition on the DVR market: Comcast subsidizes the initial cost of DVR purchase - probably with financial aid from MS. Tivo cannot afford to rent DVR's out for $9.99 a month. Comcast is using it's monopoly position (how it can expense capital costs - like 30,000 DVRs) to promote another monopolies product.

I don't want an MS DVR; I don't want my essentially mandatory cable tax be used to fund a corporation's expansion efforts into yet another market!

Foundation?

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as Microsoft don't make a talking car for Bill Gates to drive around in, we'll be fine...

A P2P set-top box makes no sense...

[PornMaster]

If the content is licensed, where does P2P come in? If I'm paying for access to old shows, movies, etc, I want it on a caching server 2 hops away. P2P is fine for free things like bittorrent for Linux ISOs or something, but if I'm paying, say, Comcast, for access to a huge library of files... why should your upstream get sucked from?

Disk is getting so cheap that a service provider has no reason to rely on an unreliable public to provide the disk space you're paying them to use.

Re:A P2P set-top box makes no sense...

[LWATCDR]

The idea is not to use public machines but owned settop boxes that are on the cable companies network.

Long time coming

[macslut]

Microsoft is an investor in Comcast. Comcast has been promising Tivo-like boxes for a very long time now. The thing is, Comcast sucks. It's pretty sad that I can get better quality and more HDTV programming via Bittorrent than I can through Comcast (I use the eyeHome from El Gato to go from my Mac via my home network to my HDTV). And of course Microsoft sucks. Nobody wants them to do this...except for Comcast...and did I mention they suck? I'm torn because on the one hand, there's no way these two dunderheads could produce anything in the ballpark of Tivo. On the other hand there are probably a lot of people who haven't come out of their y2k bunkers who at some point will *not* check the box saying they don't want to receive the MS unit for only $10 a month. Remind me, what has Microsoft produced for consumers since 2001?

On the other hand...

[DaveOf9thKey]

Just one virus, and your porn CAREER is finished...

BSOD == The Lamest Joke of All

[VividU]

Is this joke still alive? Yeah, in a OS with 90% market penetration, your gonna have your share of goobers who are fuck up their sys regardless.

Here is my experience: I've been using W2k & XP-Pro since Win2k was released. I think I've seen maybe three blue-screens in those five years and I'm a heavy production level user (Audio, Video, Code dev).

Give it up already, move on!!

Re:BSOD == The Lamest Joke of All

[Anonymous Coward]

"Give it up already, move on!!"

We will when Microsoft will. Make a secure OS, that is.

Re:BSOD == The Lamest Joke of All

[johnny_sas]

"BSOD == The Lamest Joke of All"

Not so lame when you see an ATM (or a billboard) with one!

Re:BSOD == The Lamest Joke of All

[VividU]

Your point is good except that the BSOD has nothing at all to do with security.

Re:BSOD == The Lamest Joke of All

[VividU]

From the page you linked to:

"photos were taken on the...13 Feb 2000."

"Another photo...taken...25 October 1998"

"More photos...taken 15th March 2000"

"...systems appear to have been running Windows 95 or 98."

"This page last modified: Wed Jul 10 14:42:17 2002"

Like I said, move on.

Re:BSOD == The Lamest Joke of All

[johnny_sas]

Yeah, right buddy, you wish. This is /. afterall (where the hell have you been, Mars???!?!!)

2M XBoxes

[Paradise Pete]

Something's fishy about this. Tivo has a market cap of about Two Million XBoxes. Microsoft could buy them out this afternoon if they saw them as a competitor. Why would they choose to fight instead?

Time for more monopolostic behavior...

[megarich]

I heard a rumor that ms can't stand the fact that cable and satelitte have a strong hold on the market so there gonna create their own entertainment service to compete with the likes of cablevision and direct tv. There also gonna create their own amusement park..MS LAND!!!!!! And then they'll be MS farms and MS whole grain cereal and MS "efficient" light bulbs, and MS thong for the mrs. Seriously when it end for M$???????

Unless...

[SuperKendall]

As bad as that seems, if the interface is not very good or features are better getting a TiVO might still be seen as better.

Things like the Netflix integration could drive this as well.

The 1600 Pound Gorilla.

[westlake]

MS+Comcast=Big trouble for little TiVo. Comcast has 21 million subscribers. Profile for Comcast

Re:Yo Tro: Re: Yo (To Tro)

[dildatron]

You guys are arguing about punctuation on slashdot.

To be fair ... UltimateTV is (was) pretty good.

[beagle72]

I'm far from the first to get excited about an MS product. But at the end of the day, ya gotta be objective.

I've had MS' earlier attempt at a DVR, UltimateTV, integrated with my DirecTV service for awhile now. Truth be told, it's pretty good. MS hasn't updated the now-orphaned software in a long time, so it's a platform with no future. But from all I read in other forums, those DirecTV users who've had to switch to DirecTivo are less than thrilled with the change. The UTV software is quite stable, the guide is fast, and it organizes shows in logical folders. As Apple users like to say, "it just works". You don't hear that often about MS products, but credit where its due.

The one gripe I do have with UTV is that its not hackable. If I had a DirecTivo, I could hack it up to the latest Tivo OS, and pull recorded shows off the unit onto a PC. There is no way to do this (in the digtial domain) with UTV. As far as I know nobody has figured out such a hack yet.

Re:To be fair ... UltimateTV is (was) pretty good.

[Warlock7]

DirecTIVO is fantastic! It's a far superior product and platform to "not-quite" UltimateTV. This is clear from the fact that MS couldn't manage to compete before. Now they decide to attempt to enter the market through a partnership that doesn't leave the end user with any real options.

MS is artificially influencing the market yet again, since they were unable to compete in a fair manner in the past with their sub-standard products, yet again.

Re:To be fair ... UltimateTV is (was) pretty good.

[dabraun]

UltimateTV failed for many reasons but not because 'it sucked' - the fact that it could only work with DirectTV service was one of the main factors (and also the reason it's picture quality was better than Tivo - no recompression -> no loss.) Tivo realized that they had to start out with a product that would work with any TV service (or, most importantly, would work with Cable TV without needing to get any buy-in from the Cable companies.) Tivo is now building products that work the way UltimateTV did for Satellite services.

Microsoft has taken what they learned from UltimateTV and build both Media Center and Microsoft TV Foundation (which from what I can tell don't look all that similar.) It will be interesting to see how this pans out. It seems like it is inevitable that standalone PVRs/DVRs will fall by the wayside as the 'service model' units provided for a monthly fee by cable and satellite providers improve.

Microsoft wants to be one of the companies competing for that platform. We'll see what happens - Tivo can compete in that space as well I'm sure. Anything is better than GemStar.

Re:To be fair ... UltimateTV is (was) pretty good.

[Warlock7]

I for one didn't say that "it sucked". Just to clarify.

A few details

[Ohreally_factor]

FCP was bought from Macromedia when they decided to go "all internet". Macromedia started the project by luring the lead developer of Adobe Premiere away from Adobe with the challange "If you could start completely over, what would you do NOW to make the best video editing software."

The origins of DVDSP (and probably iDVD) is a company called Astarte, from whom Apple bought the tecnology and the development team in 2000. There product was DVDirector. Astarte was the original publisher of Toast, so perhaps that is why you're confused about DVDSP being based on anything from Adaptec.

So, Apple, even why buying into markets, still innovates and puts their DNA in the software that they buy. It becomes an 'Apple' product.

No arguments from me. I was just opposing the OP argument of MS BAD/APPLE GOOD that was based on ignorance of the facts. If one is going to argue MS BAD/APPLE GOOD, then at least use the abundant facts. No need to make shit up and say that Apple doesn't buy companies to enter markets.

*tink-tink*

[shumacher]

*tink-tink*
Hi! It looks like you're trying to watch friends. Would you like some assistance?

Do not under-estimate the power of the Dark Side

[DragonHawk]

There's a term for companies which consider themselves safe from Microsoft because they have established market dominance: Bankrupt.

Microsoft has a very long and very successful history of coming into markets previously owned by other companies and taking them over. They never get it right on the first try, but their OS and Office cash cows can keep feeding repeated attempts until they win through sheer persistence. It becomes a war of attrition and Microsoft has far deeper reserves.

Don't believe me? Go look up this history of any of these:

• Lotus 1-2-3
  
• Word Perfect
  
• Stac Electronics
  
• DesqView
  
• DR-DOS
  
• Trumpet Winsock
  
• Novell NetWare
  
• Netscape Communications
  

One ignores Microsoft at one's own peril.

I am seriously worried about TiVo now. Microsoft has the resources to crush them, regardless of who has the better product or more recognition.

Re:Yo Tro: Re: Yo (To Tro)

[Anonymous Coward]

You should have capitalized "slashdot". It's a proper noun. :op

Re:... No Direct Digital recording & more user

[mllive]

I think I'd prefer the PC (open) solutions, but...

. 1) They tend to be more expensive, harder to setup, and may be somewhat less user friendly (depending on the user)

. 2) More importantly, they do not record 2 channels of straight digital. -- The DirecTiVo, and Microsoft put the original digital signal on the disk and don't need A/D converters so that the signal is not degraded Digital --> Analog --> Digital with cheap D/A converter --> Analog to TV. and since there is no need to have the A/D converter, the Microsoft system can record 2 channels at the same time.

So, though I'd prefer the open system, until we can get Digital tuners for the PC's, there are some majore advantages to the Microsoft, DirecTivo type propritory systems.

Ultimate TV

[Cosslax]

Microsoft's previous iteration, UltimateTV, was quite good. I would probably say it was better than the TiVos I've used since. The advance feature on it was fantastic and vastly superior to the one on the TiVo(via hacked firmware). It also categorized shows in a much easier to process manner. If they can pull this off again and this time actually market the damn thing, it could wind up doing quite well.

Re:Yo Tro: Re: Yo (To Tro)

[danila]

/. is not a noun, it's just a bunch of punctuation marks.