Slashdot Mirror
India Debating Manned Space Flight
alphakappa writes "India's moon mission and other space programs have been covered before on Slashdot. India is now debating sending a manned space mission and has acknowledged it's technological preparedness to do so in the next 6-7 years if given the go-ahead. The issues being debated before starting work on the mission include cost-benefit and other space priorities. (These missions also play host to international experiments) What does the general slashdot crowd think of these space plans?"
With Hundreds of Indians attached to the spacecraft in anyways they can fit in hanging off the edges blasing into space?
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
why does it interest us? Because it is India? What about China, Canadian and other groups wanting to go to space?
Iraq wanting to go to space? That would be interesting.
There a few imbalances in the world that need to be sorted out and space is one of them. The more the merrier.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Of course being an Indian and having worked with ISRO I feel strongly about it. The space is definitely the next frontier. So far India has done incredible projects related to weather, remote sensing, etc. It's definitely time to venture into this. And this is not just showing technological superiority (and I definitely will see more posts on NASA outsorcing) but that's the proud thing that India can launch vehicles in space at much much lower costs. Putting this in perspective helps in going through further projects like star wars (when US is already thinking about making it a reality). Besides India also faces competition from its neighbor China in space frontiers.
Any offsite expainsion of the human race is welcome. We can't continue to depend of the Earth for everything.
UNIX/Linux Consulting
They manage to fit the American ego in there, so I don't see why not.
liqbase
a recent guardian weekly article states that it is not considered worth the estimated US$ 2 billion it would cost to put a man on the moon.
...vividly encapsulates that post-Watergate/pre-punk/coked-up moment when you could trust no one, least of all yourself.
In view of the problems we've had with the shuttle, I think the more countries that can send people into orbit and retrieve them, the better. We should make available to India and China our docking adapter plans and technical assistance, so all spacecraft can dock to a common interface.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
I bet they do it about 25% of the price.
Although they'll have to outsource to Americans that used to work at NASA
NASA: "Hello? This is Gutmar."
INDIA: "Yeah, 'Gutmar', your real name is something like 'David' or 'Paul' isn't it? Damned Americans taking our jobs."
NASA: "My Friend, I cannot tell you where I am. It is not our policy My Friend."
With Brazil, Several Private groups, China, and India all now shooting for space it would hopefully put some pressure on our space spending which has dropped off considerably since the end of the cold war.
Perhaps if we convinced there was oil on the moon there would be more intrest but I belive the current compeition will help. It's bad enough our engineers are being squeezed out by cheap alternatives in other countries but losing out on our space program could have profound results elsewhere in our economy. We'll go from being a tech leader to a tech backwater. Were already there with our network infrastructure, were getting there with our engineering based workforces and high tech jobs going overseas.
Worse if you look at things you may notice that our society and economic structure may eventually destroy our country. With inflation on nearly everything it's becoming nearly impossible to compete with other countries. sure you can compare their living conditions vs ours but does everything here have to be so damned expensive? When I was born the average house sold for 55,000 dollars. Today you're lucky to see them in the 80's and the average is 250,000 where I live worse in some other areas. What justifies all that price jumping?
Worse is we have a president that went from a 5 trillion dollar surplus to hitting a 8 trillion dollar deficit. Where the hell did we spend all that money. IIRC those iraq spending bills were in the billions per year but looking at the deficit it's obvious that the money is going somewhere else unknown to the american public. Who are we paying and for what?
For India, this actually has a lot of benefits.
.. and pharmaceuticals in zero G environment without having to pay for expensive robotic equipment ..and yes lives on the ground will be saved by the economic and social benefits of being able to do this kind of research.
Ironically the USA at this point doesnt have the same benefit return on manned spaceflight that India has.
1) Commercial satellite contracts will be easier to get for a variety of reasons and insurance of those launches cost less as well
2) it will encourage indian kids to get into science
3) Reduce dependency on imported foreign technology by developing local talent in engineering and also the extensive IT etc. other support systems needed. Depending on imports is fine, but you need to have knowledge in case there is a loss for some reason.
4) Having a missile program is good for defense (sorry but its true given the way the world is, with all the whacko rogue states running around)
5) Be able to hook up with the ISS and carry out experiments in semiconductors (crystal growth)
Too bad all the nations can't get into an agreement, if there was a single space program for the whole world, it'd be both easier to swallow from the economical point of view and would be good from a scientific point of view, instead of reinventing the wheel scientists could focus on the real problems.
As long as India is concerned, it's a bit harsh to spend bilions of dollars to send ppl into space, when so many in India are starving etc. However the problem is well beyond my comprehension, I bet that if they actually did spend the money just to buy some food, next ppl would be starving again, if however they spend on research, with some luck they will develop technological means to overcome poverty.
What bothers me most with developing countries is the fact that despite spreading diseases, high mortality, poverty, bad living conditions, the law (as in China) there is still growth in population. I won't have a child unless I can secure his future up until University at least, they just don't care...
What with the US government abandoning any real pretense of not militarizing space, I doubt there will be any real outsourcing, but we might get to see an honest to god space battle in our lifetimes (if you're young) and India and China really get into this.
The more countries we have going to space the less chance there is of our own space program stagnating. Competition will keep our Congress people's attention. Even if they would rather put the resources into another payraise for themselves or Halliburton, they will have to think about the stigma of the US losing its place as the world leader in space on their watch.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!" -- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)
"As long as India is concerned, it's a bit harsh to spend bilions of dollars to send ppl into space, when so many in India are starving etc. However the problem is well beyond my comprehension, I bet that if they actually did spend the money just to buy some food, next ppl would be starving again, if however they spend on research, with some luck they will develop technological means to overcome poverty."
What I was thinking the other day was to have a governmental construction force, similar to the army, to build cities. Anyone who wants to volunteer for work will be given work to build a city. Houses/schools/places of buisness would be made that otherwise would not have been made, and not with a plan.
Make a governmental food program too, but it doesn't have to be tasty, just really cheap food thats nutritional. Most people wouldn't want to eat it except those who are starving.
With food and shelter taken care of, people wouldn't be in trouble and can spend their time on an education and bettering society themself.
God spoke to me.
India of course has a segment of their population that is tech-savvy, but that does not mean the rest of the country is doing well. They have about one billion mouths to feed over there and exploitation of space ought to be one of their last concerns.
That being said, they have an ocean on their border and it seems a much more worthy opportunity that would lead to being able to adequately take care of their population by exploiting that, and developing science that is marine-based, as opposed to space based.
On a pure geek/technical and humanitarian level, I'm all for manned space flight. More the better. More chance to explore, more chance to get off of the earth, more chance for humanity to survive, and more chance for us to turn our attention to something worthwhile. Plus, of course, cool technical benefits.
However, it seems to me a lot of countries are jumping into the space race, and I'm concerned about conflicts, territoriality, and inappropriate militarization. It seems it's getting awful crowded up there pretty quick.
This is an area I'm not as informed as I'd like to be, and I wonder if people know:
1) How many countries have made successful space flight and what they've done.
2) What plans they have for the future.
3) What treaties exist concerning space flight.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
Other than the "neato" factor? I'd think, after Hubble, and the (still going) mars rovers, that we'd be able to do neater things with unmanned space flights, and we would have to worry less about things like food, water, and air.
Not trying to be a killjoy, I'm just curious.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
Hopefully they'll outsource some jobs to America.
Its just my opinion that the more countries we have on a quest for knowledge, the better.
... just saying.
After all, the more countries who can build spacecraft the better when the aliens come invading...
I'm tired of all this talk I here about out-sorcerer-ing this and out-sorcerer-ing that. Are our own witches, warlocks and wizards not good enough? Do the incantations of home-grown covens no longer work? Is even "Charmed" to be produced in another country? I can't take it anymore !
Wow.. talk about someone with narrow vision. Get a life, read up about Indian culture -- and maybe you'll understand that you live in a *very* small fishbowl my friend.
:wq
"I'm frankly sick of all the damned jingoism and nationalist fever in the red states" ...whereas there's none of that in the red state of China? No self delusion and jingoism in China? None at all?
Eliminating the space program won't help him!!
.. that goes a long way compared to the additional 50cents that could be given to each individual in India by not having a space program.
.. that's just 50 cents per person in india (India has over 1 billion people).
The space program will help by providing jobs and encouragement to learn science
India's space budget is only 550 million
Please find less wasteful program to bitch about instead of one that encourages science and will improve the agricultural, health, and economic condition of people.
...given some of the poverty in India, one cannot help but agree. Why a manned mission? It's been proved over and over again that robotic missions can produce similar data to a manned mission, but with far lower cost. If India truly wanted to do this for science, why not a robotic mission? ...but presumably, there is some nationalist pride here as well. However, I do applaud their efforts to develop technology...
Confined Space + Vindaloo Farts = Unpleasant Voyage.
Sorry, this is a government project. Every attempt to decrease costs results in their doubling. You'll have to adjust your figures somewhat, but in the end it shouldn't be significant (as governments caluculate things).
... more easily controlled.
Since it's a government project, only the highest quality will be acceptable. These jobs must be outsourced to the People's Rebublic of China, where quality is
In response, the Germany will attack Poland and the French will surrender to Belgium.
sigs, as if you care.
Comparing India and Pakistan is inappropriate. India is the world's largest secular democracy, with a healthy mix of various ethnicities and the like, with over a billion people. Pakistan is relatively smaller, and is an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship with a military general.
While India's technological developments are said to be largely inhouse (they had a little help from Russia in the 1980s, but Russia had to stop helping them after pressure from the US), Pakistan's technologies are largely borrowed from China.
There is a big difference. India is a progressive economy with a very liberal-minded population, you can be fairly certain that they won't blow up anyone first. Pakistan is a conservative Islamic nation with a military ruler, you never know how they would react.
I've interacted with several Indians - but for the cultural "oddities" they are excellent people.
Vote for a Man, Vote for Bush!
Not a liberatarian flipflop hippie.
wow ... talk about someone who can't see when someone is playing up to stereotype.
hahaha mod parent up
Manned spaceflight has already been done 30+ years ago. The technology is there to do it. What China and India are doing is simply re-inventing the wheel.
Ok its good for a country to have their own facilities from which they can launch satellites etc, but shouldn't we have a broader planet-wide space program ? Countries around the world should be collaborating in order to achieve the next big thing. Not just go at it by themselves in order to boost national pride.
My 2 cents.
A million monkeys and this is the best sig they could come up with...
Imagine, Canadians in space. What a crazy idea.
Imagine if they put Canadian made parts on the shuttle or ISS.
Venugopal:OH DAMMIT, you don' bring chicken tikka with you Apu???
Apu:OH very sorry, Venu! I no bring with me!
Venugopal:OH my goodness!! what will we ever do??? turn this damn ship around and go get some!!!
Apu:But it cost too much money for fuel! No can go back Venu!
Venugopal:DAMMIT DAMMIT!! I am Venugopal!! i want chicken tikka dammit!! You shouldnt be astronaught Apu! You go back to driving CAB!!
Apu:At least I don' work at Kwik-e-Mart!!
Is the point to say "we've been to do moon", or do they plan on doing something worthwhile while they are there?
We know quite a bit about the moon alrady, do we know enough to begin to be able to colonize it? I would like to say yes. We know about the moon. We may not know about our technology's ability to sustain us there, so they better be going with that in mind.
We know we can get there, and they've got near 45 years technology on NASA. I would consider just getting there a waste of India's resources.
You call it excessive, I call it ambitious.
Do you USA:ians have a mcdonalds "restaurant" and coke-machines aboard the ISS?
Sheesh
Some people.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
I for one don't quite welcome our new space-overlords. I mean, great for India, I have nothing against them. But I can just see it now, corporations outsourcing space exploration to India because it is cheaper.
Some things just should be done by those interested in them, even if it is more expensive. Exploration is one of them. But only time will tell I suppose.
The only hitch is that they dont' have a visa to enter space. :) If they do, odds are that is that the Gujus(Gujaratis) will have populated most of space with space motels in 7-8 years!
(speaking as one has to do visa submission for wife for every fucking country we have to go to) If India is so advanced why is indian citizenship worth shite? Gah.
sri
Will developing things like solid rocket booster technology be somewhat applicable to development of long-range missiles?
I know that some of the hubbub surrounding Loral's technology used in Chinese satellite launches was because of the supposition that it would enhance PRC's ability to lob nukes over longer distances.
Of course, since Pakistan is so close, I don't know how much of an impetus there is towards long-range missiles in India.
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
I agree with the overarching point that I believe politically Pakistan has the potential to be a bit more of a powder-keg than India, but both countries have both inherently good and bad practices. India for example (if I remember correctly, which is often not the case) was spotlighted for numerous accepted Acid-burn attacks on women from Indian men because of marriage issues (basically very young girls not wanting to marry older men so the older men would throw acid on them scarring them for life.)
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
Great! Another industry lost to outsourcing!
They give the maiden voyage a good thumbs up!
Then Don't Ask the Question.
If the leaders of India have any respect for their people, then how could anything else but going into space matter?
I am sick of such messages which regularly appear on the topic of some technological development in the developing nations. And these messages get moderated as +5 Insightful.
If I were to use the same argument, then US should spend a little less on defence and bring the number of people below povery line to zero.
It is sad the uber-rich and media/academic/financial elites running the US have shut down the US economy to the point the US hasn't been able to take advantage of technologies that were developed here.
I suspect it will take something like another sputnik to turn that around. These plans on the part of India isn't really another Sputnik-but eventually we'll see something like that.
Right now, there is the image that only large countries can do space. However, when I can easily imagine some highly profitable industries get developed in space-and then major commercial powers like Taiwan and Singapore get into the act.
No. You can send them to the planet Marklar if you have spaceships!
:-)
There are over 1 billion reasons not to go.
The money should be spent on agricultural research and improved infrastructure.
The average annual income in India is $450.
Being an Indian, I feel strongly about it as well.
--
Vote for a Man, Vote for Bush! Not a liberatarian flipflop hippie.
Whereas, americans have no cultural oddities at all! No sirree. None. And as rational as a Vulcan.
Your comment is ignorant.
You can can toss all the money you want and it will not fix the situation and possibly make it worse. The issue isn't the squalor they live in, for some of those people they don't see it as squalor. Many live as those who lived before them and it is by OUR standards that their living standards are not acceptable. You cannot buy them a new lifestyle. You cannot pay them to think and act differently.
Sure spend some money, but also realize that the national pride will go a lot further for many Indians with a successful space program. It allows them to dismiss people who constantly call India "3rd world". Too many people see that country as "3rd world" while ignoring all they accomplished.
Why do people mostly complain about DEMOCRATIC countries that do this but give a pass to China who not only throws a ton of money into their space race, their military, and such and at the same time likes to whack 5000+ of thier own people?
India is progressing nicely, I don't think they need our Western standards to intefer with a job they are doing.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
That interesting stories like this are degraded to anti-American propaganda and the hateful jackasses who post garbage like the parent are modded Insightful?
Attention mods! Put down the crack pipe before picking up the mouse.
That's not outsourcing; that's the hiring of immigrants. Outsourcing would be if the NASA facilities themselves were located in India, and the staff were paid in rubles.
Hopefully things like the Chinese and Indians planning manned missions will give the western world the kick in the ass it needs to start spending decent amounts of money on space. Otherwise, these 'developing' nations will have prime permanent bases, reaping the resources of the solar system, and having populations spread throughout the system. Meanwhile, western civilization stagnates back here on little old Earth because they were too worried about having a few astronauts die despite the fact they volunteered knowing the risks.
They should outsource their space program to Boeing.
"What labor deficit?"
I am actually quite sick of people branding people about whom they hardly know anything even in jest. Just as there are blues and reds in the US, there are a variety of people in India and equating India = turban is just advertising one's ignorance to the world.
How would it be if one would say America = "duh"?
The more Indian engineers in space, the less there will be back home stealing our jobs!!!
(Because some are too think headed to have a sense of humor, I AM KIDDING!)
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
The issue isn't the squalor they live in, for some of those people they don't see it as squalor. Many live as those who lived before them and it is by OUR standards that their living standards are not acceptable
Your comment may apply to many rural villages where a simple yet poor life has continued for generations. However, there is also real squalor as well. Overpopulation combined with poor sanitation and rampant disease plague the sprawling slums of bombay, calcutta, etc. About 150 million people live in slums in India, and it hasn't always been like this. Bombay alone has over 4 million,/a>. That's why organizations like this one exist.
My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
The sig is sarcastic and designed to shock. See this thread.
Vote for a Man, Vote for Bush!
Not a liberatarian flipflop hippie.
The Race for Space was an expensive bugger, but it was also a time of great innovation.
I welcome the Chinese, and the Indians, and the Japanese. Go Arianespace! Whose idea was it to replace two lumbering bureaucracies with a single humongous multinational lumbering bureaucracy?
Next we'll be outsourcing jobs to SPACE!
"It's a wonderful idea. But it doesn't work." -- Tad Danielewski
What can they learn from it that we haven't already learned? They should concentrate on getting rich so they can buy the fruits of that research from us, rather than recapitulating what we've already done. This is a classic "build or buy" decision, and for them, their money is best spent reinvested in their own markets.
Nice to see so many techies falling back to racist sterotypes of Indians or worse (the person who made the comments about it being a shame that there were no visa restrictions to prevent Indians in space - I'm talking to you).
How would people react if instead we were talking about Africans swinging from tree branches into space?
I know I will get the typical idiot responses banging on about freedom of speech, but you know what? I don't care.... racism is racism is racism....
It's rupees, not rubles.
on the same note considering US is a super power why does it need to put weapons in space?
And you don't agree with Indian because a third world country is rising beyond its stereotypical image? There are a lot of problems in this world be it a third or a first world country, putting an end to the development of science is not an answer to that.
And to your counter argrument that they are reinventing the wheel. well not everybody is cooperative enough to share their technology with the rest of the world. so countries like india have to restort to reinvention of the wheel.
Thank you. I find things like this very upsetting. For instance, in order to save money (read: free up funds for $15.8 Billion in pork), the current budget proposed in the U.S. Congress had cuts for science funding, low-income education, environmental concerns, and other things.
NASA did get a boost; however, I wonder if that boost will go towards Star Wars II more than anything?
What?
if I were india and China I would focus on getting people sent up into some rotating space station and then just blast people off in hundreds of thousands of cheap two to four man capsules...
they could all be shot at a location on the moon or mars or where with parts to build some sustainable structures -- or perhaps even the capsules/pods/transports are made to be reusable as housing...
I would figure if you can get the basics down and just make tons of transports the statistical odds are in your favor to have some limited BUT STILL successful attempts.
It's not like China and India don't have people that would volunteer to get shot into space to the hope of getting out of the slums / starvation they currently face and will continue to face for generations.
------------------------------
Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
maybe firing people into space is their solution to Starvation... Crime... although I'm not so sure about the solution to "Hello"
------------------------------
Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
Governments in space. Humpf.
Rumor has it the first Indian space shuttle will be equipped with six robotic arms.
I think these objections are raised partly because India still receives a great deal of foreign aid.
"If they are landing on the moon," the argument runs, "why are we feeding their poor?".
Yes, saddly, [s]he must actually believes that you believe all Indians are like that and/or everyone reading your post would believe that as well. I think most people are intelligent and versed enough to recognize your post as hyperbole. Isn't there some saying about "protesting too much"?
I would almost agree with you, but not quite.
Southern India, coastal regions, urban areas, you'll find well-educated, secular people who share most of the same values we do. North India, more rural and remote areas are in fact far more religious and conservative. Those lovely scenes on CNN where Indians were rioting and butchering Muslims and celebrating? Thats the general kind of mentality I'm talking about. Honor killings, forced marriages, old-fashioned intolerance. This is changing, but religious and tribal authority still overrides national authority in much of the North.
There have been 3 wars with Pakistan for a reason, everyone there isn't as peace-loving as you seem to think.
My family is South Indian, and overall while they are prejudiced against northerners I try not to share that, but I have noticed differences between the Indians I grew up with here and others I've met. Just like there are red and blue states but one US, there are different levels of education and beliefs in India.
Just trying to give you a better picture of what the country is like.
The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
How do you spell "NASA" in hindi?
"Hello, this is [some corp]. How may I help you?"
"Where are you located, India?"
"No sir, we are at L5"
From your post I can tell two things:
1. You're ignorant. Sorry for being so blunt, but it's true.
India might have a population of a billion, but they're not all "poor, illiterate and starving", far from it. As for things like "an ancient infrastructure and horrible pollution", well I have two words for you: Union Carbide.
Seriously, put down Half-Life 2 for five minutes and read a book. Perhaps then you'll have a better understanding of the world beyond your own nation's borders. And perhaps you'd also appreciate that you don't even have to get a passport, or even get into a car, to see real abject poverty: I'm sure there are plenty of people living hand to mouth existences only a few miles from your doorstep.
2. You have no appreciation for the benefits that technology can have for even the simplest people, or the role of technology in elevating people from poverty.
Farmers benefiting from better weather forecasts is just one example of what I'm talking about. Solar panels providing electricity to even the remotest regions is another. Water filtration and recycling techniques are yet more.
Sorry, but the only thing that's asinine here is your attitude. I've been there and seen the country too, so I know that you're talking out of your backside.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
You mean being racist?
Dang.. First they learn english and get names like ours. Second they steal half of our business.. now they want to have a manned space flight like us? Geez :P
Seriously, put down Half-Life 2 for five minutes and read a book.
;-)
You're new around here, aren't you?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
What does the general slashdot crowd think of these space plans?"
Out of this world!
My mistake: the cost of Apollo is about the same as the projected lifetime cost of the ISS ($100 billion "modern" dollars each). Mir is quoted at costing a bit more than $4 billion for its entire operating life.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Its because the earth has already reached saturation point for qwik-e-marts.
What most of the posts essentially say is : :-)
1. India is re-inventing the wheel with manned space flights.
2. India should put in money into infrastructure,starving people,poverty..
3. India is stealing american jobs.
Not 1 post(maybe 1) tries state reasons as to WHY India must be investing in Space programs at all?? Do you guys actually think that no one in the current Indian Govt or opposition must have thought that they'd rather invest in reducing poverty etc instead of Space programs?!.I am not jusifying their expenditure but just saying that there will be a good reason behind it.Besides there are specific norms as to what a developing nation needs to be.
Also there are certain things that need to be re-invented.If there was 1 mission to Mars, do you think no one else would attempt to send a probe into MARS?
And when it comes to stealing jobs, India is not stealing jobs but America is offering them jobs.If you call that stealing, ok.
Just my 2(3) cents.
Lord of the Binges.
The world can be a better place if we leave nationalism behind, and think collectively in terms on the whole mankind.
The world would also be a better place if we were all transformed into magical fairies with wings so that we could fly wherever we wanted to go. What's your point?
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
I'm an Indian, and
everytime I see a "technology is good" post from
people who watch "60 minutes" or some report on
CNN, I say "IGNORANT optimistic FOOL". I say
the spending by any government should be aimed at
helping the largest number of people at lowest
cost. Better roads, better water supply systems,
better schools, and a better food distribution
system will help more people than will a space
program.
Someone on here said that a successful space
program would enhance Indian national pride.
I see no pride in having to import technology,
know-how and knowledge.
Most kids in India do aim to get into science.
And most of them that do end up in science, end
up in the US or other countries. Those that ARE
left behind are insipid, uncreative people that'd
rather plagiarize stuff off of google than come
up with innovative solutions to problems.
Corruption is still a big problem in India.
And big money government projects like these are
perfect targets for the beaurecrats and ministers
to make amoral money.
GRRR. BLAH!
There has lot beeb said about India being poor. That is, I think, the biggest reason they should try to develop affodable technology at home. They need high technology to improve the lives of their people. As far as Pakistan being a fundamentalist Islamic military dictatorship is concerned. At times there have been Generals ruling. They were far from being Islamic. Currently the General is very well educated and Westranized. There is and elected parliament and the Prime Minister lived in US for decades and was a VP at CitiBank. The elected parliament is very moderate. There is hardly any evidence of anything else. Some people have wrong perception and it only there perception and a man's perception is his reality.
where did we need a land bridge?
------------------------------
Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
Great idea, the more folks in space, the better. Mod all the stupid anti-indian-outsourcing jokers as flamebait and redundant, BTW. I wonder what will the Indian space mission participants be called? Cosmonauts, astronauts, taikonauts, now what?
VKh
His point was that he was proposing something at least potentially possible and sensible.
China has not threatened India and is not going too anytime soon. Also the SUs, SSGN, and aircraft carriers are not for defending the country from an attack from china.
What you did not seem to understand is I really do want India and anyone else to try and build manned spacecraft. I am just saying that before you worry about India waisting money on space flight over people that there are bigger things that you can complain about.
I will have to say that your statments about the largest first class drug industry in the world is a statment that you can not prove. It may have one of the largest drug industries in the world but how many drugs do they develop, not just manufacture?
Creationism not being taught in Indian schools? Want to bet? There are some extreme Hindu schools I believe private schools that are teaching raced base murder in the northern areas of India. I would bet they are teaching the Hindu creation story as well. India has it's fair share of sicko nut cases as does the US.
Do not get me started on teaching evolution in the US. Frankly creationism has no place in a science class. I have looked at the science and it was all.... well no other way to put it but lies. I was invited by some friends to a creationism lecture and tried to go with an open mind but when he tried to tell me that there is no proof that c is a universal constant it was too much. I had to say in front of a few hundred people that was flat out wrong. Not to mention that they also said that Dinosauars where just lizards that got really big because before the flood everyting lived longer! I am a Christian and I know in my heart that you can never lie for Christ, kill for Christ, or hate for Christ. I know I will get flamed by the left for that statment but who cares.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
For the sake of nationalism, U.S. did it first and Russia never went for it, but now China and India want to fake going to the moon. Does every country with a camcorder have to have a manned space program?
really will be called Apu...
of course with a population over 1 billion in a land area just over 1/3 the size of the US, they have quite different issues than the US does.
india has roughly 25% of the population below the poverty line (compared to the US' 12%), but this is pretty good for a developing country. of course as you pointed out, much of that 25% may be subsistence farmers and/or simple villagers -- quite different from the US where such things dont really exist.
Besides yours truly a raving Spider Robinson fan? Stardance, Starseed, Starmind... In space, nationality ceases to matter, and there's a *lot* more room out there than there is down here. I want to be a space colonist, and don't care what flag (if any) is painted on the ride that gets me there.
Take the 90-Day Challenge! http://rwmurker.bodybyvi.com/
Note, that the SRB historically ranges from 1.2-1.5M to F. Males tend to have fatal accidents during their youth more frequently than females.
So either by design or evolution more males are born than females.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
The evidence as it stands is that c is
a) Not universal.
b)decreasing, this may be due to increased accuracy in our measuring instruments or due to an actual decrease in c.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
all evidence is that c is a constant in a vacuum allowing for gravitational distortions. It is more than constant enough to rule out stars several billion light years away being only 10,000 years old.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
First of all, I did read that you'd been there: if you bothered to read my reply as well as I read your original comment you'd notice that I said that "I've been there and seen the country too", a clear acknowledgement of your claim.
Poor is a relative term. Of course there are poor people in India, just as there are poor people in the US, in the UK, and everywhere else in the world. India certainly doesn't have a monopoly on poor, and it certainly doesn't have "about a billion poor, illiterate and starving people" as you claim. If nothing else, the number of technology jobs being moved their from the US and elsewhere should blow your argument out of the water.
According to the CIA World Factbook, India has posted an average annual economic growth of 6 percent since 1990: see if you can find any other comparable nation that's making those sorts of strides. And the distribution of wealth isn't as bad as in, say, the US, with the bottom 10 percent of the population having 3.5 percent of the wealth (compared to 1.8 percent in the US). Life expectancy is rising just as it is in the West. Etc, etc. The idea that India is still a poor backward nation is just that, an idea, whereas the reality is very different.
As I've said twice now, once in my original post, once again in the previous paragraphs, I've been to India too. The reality is that I've never had a problem phoning the West (maybe 20 years ago, but not now) and the infrastructure is visibly improving year on year. Pollution, the other issue that you mention, is hardly something that's specific to India either: I've experienced smog-filled days in the developed as well as the developing world.
I've been to India several times. My last trip to India covered everywhere from the northernmost states down to Mumbai and then onto Bangalore, and lasted 13 weeks. My next one, scheduled for early next year, will cover New Delhi, Agra, Rajasthan, Gujurat, Mumbai, Goa and Kerala over six weeks. My hindi is a bit poor in places, but my gujurati is spot on, and I can converse with the average man in the street anywhere in the country without a problem. So, please, don't presume to tell me I'm the one who's ignorant about the Indian subcontinent. Because what you know about India that I don't probably isn't worth one fucking rupee.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Now I'll be able to get a big gulp as soon as I finish building this rocketship.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Yes you are right. Geosynchronous/Geostationary can only be over/near the Equator, but I was referring to the footprint and not the vehicle itself. Should have made it clearer so the flamelords wouldn't have an opportunity to vent.
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
Actually, as a Hindu and an Indian, I can say with some confidence that creationism is not taught in Indian schools. Its true that there are Hindu extremists just as there are Moslem and Christian extremists; and there are Hindu religious schools; but Hinduism, maybe because of how old it is, does not usually try to explain creation or to dispute science in this. There is a Hindu creationist theory and it has its own date, but Hindus are suprisingly able to separate their religion from their science. They will still tell you that the world was created by Brahma, but that doesnt affect the scientific view of things.
India is a failure..
because its culture is a failure
Not sure what your point is here - how can anyone label *any* culture (or country ) in this world to be a failure.? !! But you do have a point in saying that it could be a waste of money.
Axiom 1: Urban communities will be liberal and rural ones will be conservative, comparatively.
Axiom 2: Communities that send more people into the armed forces/war (per capita) will be more conservative, comparatively.
I think the above 2 axioms can be applied to almost any country in the world.
The more countries who can get into space, the more chance there is that the people who get up there will look down and say, "Wow... That planet down there is really something special. We should take more care of it - and the race that got us up here to appreciate it."
You must think in Russian.
We all heard the reasoning for abolishing space-exploration (particulary human-based) before, and I think the major flaw in all these 'arguments' why we shouldn't go into space is that they always set economic factors as a premise.
;-)
But, although economic viability is important to create a mass-usuage of space(travel), I fail to see why it should be the only possible motive to start exploring space. It's a pretty narrowminded, materialistic and typical capitalistic view on things. It's the same view that makes progress on medication for very rare diseases, or for diseases that are prevalent in continents that are poor, so slow: corporations can't see how they are ever going to get profit out of it, so they all turn their backs on it.
If ppl (including states) are only going to do something when they are sure of an immediate profitable return, the world has become a sad place. (And we should leave it the sooner
Arguments based on such a viewpoint fail to recognise other incentives apart from economical ones.
The reason why we shouldn't (only) rely on robots? You can explore, but you can not colonise with robots. The will to explore is deeply entrenched in the human race, but with a reason: it has survival advantages.
A species that doesn't colonise new territory and adapt, will perish. I think it's paramount that humans always keep their adventurage spirit and keep exploring and expanding, because the moment we will go "ah, let's sit back in our sofa's and let our robots/droids do it", we're basically finished, even when not being aware of it at that moment.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
so long as their misfires don't land in my back yard.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I tend to agree with you ... the current controversy over H1Bs, outsourcing and all that aside, I've worked with a number of Indian engineers and found them, to a man, to be competent, hardworking and ethical. And, alas ... relatively inexpensive. But that will change for India and China as it did with Japan. People (particularly cultured, educated, talented people with families) will work for peanuts for only so long.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
No, being racist is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
I imply neither of those in my comment. I merely played to the stereotype and common observation that there are a lot of Indian cab drivers and those that own convenience stores.
A stereotype that is recognised the world over and reflected in shows like the Simpsons. Would you say the Simpsons are racist? I think not.
Geez man, lighten up - it's people like you who breed intolerance.
If this works out, it'll be great. Then the ISS crew won't have to land to stock up at a 7-11.
> India is progressing nicely, I don't think they need our Western standards to intefer with a job they are doing.
Excellent. Then India can stop needing foreign aid
too.
If they can afford to subsidize space flight, they
don't need aid from the treasuries of other
countries.
Indeed, they don't need aid from the charities
I contribute too.
Some cultures don't succeed as well as others. I wouldn't count India amongst the failures, though.
Consider the Aztecs, on the other hand. Human sacrifice, institutionalized slavery... in the end, not even their cool calendars carved in stone made the Aztec culture truly viable. In the end, the Aztecs failed miserably.
I note with sadness that the Arab culture has also passed quite a few hundred years without any notable successes.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Flamebait??
Racist Mods.
Because China, unlike India, is more than hype. There's a lot of talk coming from India, but few accomplishments vs. China.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
Comparing India and Pakistan is inappropriate.
I agree. They are different people with different traditions and values, although they hail from the same backgrounds.
India is the world's largest secular democracy, with a healthy mix of various ethnicities and the like, with over a billion people.
Well depends on your definition of democracy. Just saying it isnt enough. I agree they have a various mix of of ethnicities but have problems in each one of those. Whether its Hindu-Muslim riots in Gujrat, or Tamil guerrilas in the South and others.
Pakistan is relatively smaller, and is an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship with a military general.
I feel the current rule in Pakistan is the most democratic and modern government for some time. The freedom of press and media is at a level almost at par with any of that in the world and definitely better than here. Fundamentalists? Well is that why they have captured more fundamentalist AQ/Taliban operatives than the US forces there?
I've interacted with several Indians - but for the cultural "oddities" they are excellent people.
I dont think there is any real difference between Indians and Pakistanis who are in US. I am sure you will find proportionately equal representation of both in all accomplishments here. But its true that Indians have a head-start as far as technology is concerned but thats not surprising.
Precisely. It's already happening. Wish I had mod points left :)
"Those who don't understand history...
Cheers,
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
You're joking, of course. America is not an extremist Christian nation with a fundamentalist ruler. Our "elected President" is about as fundamentalist as a doorknob, and given the number of Americans that basically disagree with him your comment is just completely way off base. He got re-elected, yes, but only because the opposition proved incapable of supplying us an even equally-tolerable option. Had Kerry actually been a better choice Bush would have been out: this may come as a surprise to you but we're not any happier about Iraq than you are. You may not live in a Republic, where you have a choice of leaders, but for us it came down to the (barely) lesser of two evils. And in four years he's out, for good.
... clean up your own messes.
I'm not a religious person myself, but I can honestly say that a lot of America's problems with moral decay, high crime rates, high divorce rates, and so forth have more to do with a lack of organized religion than an excess. Hell, there are more religions in the U.S. than you can count on all twenty-one extremities and none of them get along with each other. Portraying us as some monolithic, intolerant, Fundamentalist/military regime such as the Taliban or Pakistan is just, well, ignorant. Sorry.
I don't know what country you hail from (don't much care either) but I will tell you this: I look at the world today, and there are many, many nations that I, as an American, don't feel comfortable with because they have a proven track record of unpredictable, dangerous behavior. Laying all the crap this so-called "civilization" dishes out at the feet of the United States is an abdication of responsibility
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
With a population of 1 billion how many you think took part in the violence. Had India not been secular, democratic and tolerant the whole of the country must be in chaos. Just because the numbers are huge (in any riot) does not effectively mean the intensity of the problem. The per cent of people who did the violence is fractional. Even less % than the % of misbehaved soldiers of Abu Gharib.
And by the way the Tamil guerrilas are in a different country called Sri Lanka.
I feel the current rule in Pakistan is the most democratic and modern government for some time.
Yes, as you said above "it depends on the definition of democracy". But it is not the democracy "by,for, to the people".
Fundamentalists? Well is that why they have captured more fundamentalist AQ/Taliban operatives than the US forces there?
This is because 'the current regime' was the creator sponsor of Taliban and they know the territory and the AQ members. One must remember Pakistan was the last country to maintain ties with the Taliban.
...now they're sending my job into space
No insult was meant. Frankly if you go to BYU or Notre Dame they teach evolution as well. Actually I that thought the Hindu creation story was that it was the Dream of Brahma while he slept on a lotus. It has been a while. Just trying to point out that there are nuts everywhere and good and bad people everywhere. My comment was meant mainly to support the idea that India should build manned space craft it if wants to and that to damm them for not spending that tiny amount of money on the poor was miss directed. Complain about the military spending first. One of the big problems with India's military spending is that most of it is leaving the country instead of improving it's own technology base.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Hi there, I'm a technician for Napier University and have just read your post from January regarding the repair to an iBook back-light. I have a student's G3 iBook with the same problem - definitely the video chip. Could you possibly give me some more info as to where you permanently pulled up the control signal of the backlight? Any help much appreciated, thanks Stanley
" Go to a Nasa facility sometime-this is already _happening_-there are _lots_ of Indians that work at Nasa."
Such as one of the crew of the Columbia.
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