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Do-Not-Call List Could Be Opened For Phone Spam
Wick_7654 submits a link to this story at the Chicago Sun-Times, which begins "The agency overseeing the national Do Not Call Registry is considering opening a loophole to allow companies to deliver 'pre-recorded message telemarketing.' The effort is being organized by Allen Hile of the FTC's division of marketing practice. Be sure to let the FTC know how you feel about it." The proposed change specifies that recorded calls would be allowed only when an "established business relationship" exists, but provisions like that tend to be stretched to absurdity.
Yes, sir, your uncle's second wife's stepsister's kindergarten teacher once bought a widget from us. That establishes a clear prior business relationship between you and us.
"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance."
Therefore, we have a prior business relationship.
...would like to thank our (new?) FTC overlords for this...
The proposed change specifies that recorded calls would be allowed only when an "established business relationship" exists, but provisions like that tend to be stretched to absurdity.
.....Right? Who here can truely say that CAN-SPAM hasn't stopped all spam from reaching their inbox?! I give this provision the thumbs up!
Hey...it worked with CAN-SPAM, right?
</sarcasm>
Bugs are just features that have been fixed.
Aren't companies allowed to make calls already if they have a "pre-established business relationship" with you? Has this changed or is the summary missing something?
"If you wish to create a business relationship with Spammers Inc., hang up now! If you already have a business relationship with us, please stay on the line."
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
and the fact that telemarketers have been drooling at the prospect of a list that they can get for free. Notch one up for the telemarketers lobbest and one down for the public.
This admin seems determined to allow large businesses to do whatever. The can spam act is a total joke just like what will happen to the federal do-not-call list
.One of the interesting things about it is that it allows large companies to do as they see fit. MSN (and I believe Yahoo and AOL amongst others) to this day , still sell an address list, bandwidth, and ips to spammers. In particular, MSN works with companies such as SBC and Qwest and will "borrow" home users IP's for temp useage. Of course, the users are not currently using them, so MSN will allow spammers to appear to be the end-user. So many people here think that spam is originating from China, when in reality, it does not. It is simply given the appearence of such. Of course, the government made sure that can spam did not injure that practise.
Now, they are slipping in a backdoor for the no-call list. If you really want to have this work, then you should try to get your state to pass the same law as Colorado has. Colorado started it and it seems to work well.
Now your unlisted number, that you went ahead and put on the do-not-call list to protect yourself from callers who just selected numbers randomly, will be given to the telemarketers as a number that is fair game for them to call. Your tax maney at work.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
What the hell is going on over there? Has the entire USA become a free-for-all (big business that is) annoyfest? I'm on an European do-not-call-list and have recieved two calls in four or five years one was a mistake, that didn't help I reported them anyway.
The other was from a company I already do business with (I yelled at them anyway and moved my business to another company that don't anoy me at work). They used the pre-business loophole so I told them what my opinion was with that and talked to everyone I could reach in the company. I also reported them to the consumer ombudsman, since they are abusing their power grid monopoly in Oslo to justify pushing sales calls.
From an outside perspective, it seems like the only ones enjoying freedom in the US are big, bug business. They can trample the freedom of private citizens quite easely, it seems and bother them at will while the government drags its feet. And counts its money, I presume. We have the loophole too, but we are at least working on closing it, not opening it more.
How 'bout we just make all telemarketting illegal. Actually! While we are at it, lets make all forms of advertising illegal! That's obviously how we SHOULD be doing things.
Why stop there? Lets make breathing illegal, and allow Microsoft to patent eating!
Please let them, really, I mean how much business would they get from a "DO NOT CALL" list?
Maybe then they will realise that these people are in fact helping them not call people who won't buy their crap.
+----------------- | What is the question!
If things get really bad, just switch to cellphones. They can't call those, although for some reason they get a lot of wrong numbers.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
I think your business's phone number is in that big yellow book that shows up at my door once a year, that counts as an "established business relationship" right?
I received one of those prerecorded messages today (and on the do not call list) and thought to myself this should be illegal. Now I read their attempting to open a loophole to allow this?
Until recently (after getting a Gmail account), I lost all hope in email; my usage of email decreased significantly as I had to cancel (abandon) several webmail accounts due to spam (~40 per day).
Before the "do not call registry" started, I was planing to let go of my phone too.
There is one more way to fight this. "Demand" from you phone company to block telemarketers even if that meant putting a cap on outgoing phone calls just like we ask ISP's to do with email spammers. This would be easier than we do with spam since land lines are easier to trace.
I wonder what ever happened to the concept of integrity and principles in government ?
How about this? Mr. Geek develops a telephone with a database of telephone numbers that he wants to accept. Any number that is not on that list is blocked. Basically, it opens and closes the line, so the marketer won't keep the line busy. This should work with Caller ID.
This is a good way to get people to trust government initiatives to "protect" them.
dumb fucks.
What is the point to contact people who said that they do not want your product? They already told they are not going to buy things this way. Isn't it just moneey waste for the companys calling people whoi not only will not buy, but get annoyed and starts doing negative publicity?
- no sig.
I don't know if it's just an obvious troll but I'll answer anyway: phone calls come directly INSIDE my house, it's my PRIVATE property unlike advertising in the street. When I answer the phone, I'm disturbed unlike public advertising. Telemarketers waste my TIME!!! Don't you understand this?
I've found a very simple solution to this problem-I use cable internet and a cell phone. It is illegal to telemarket cell phones, and I've thus far not had it happen. I get a better deal on my cell then I would on landline service anyway (same cost, give or take 2 bucks, and no cost for long distance as a bonus.)
As a side note on the spam issue, I use a "throwaway" email address for public posting. I get little spam to it even, and absolutely none to my gmail account, which is given only to friends, family, etc.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
Damn it, the goverment does ONE thing right, and now they want to screw that up too? What the hell.. who puts these people in power?
"What do you mean no prior business relationship? You said hello. Hello is a greeting and greetings are an integral part of relationships. Now about that home mortgage..."
-- Don Carcharo
The pre-recorded messages are always the worst.
"This is an important message. It is dire that you call us back at the following number: 1-800-555-1234
We must speak with you on an urgent matter
The first time I got one of these, I thought something might have happened to a loved one... I quickly learned that if I answer the phone to a robot, I should hang up immediately.
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
I have a better idea.. why not just leave the rules as they are, and offer an opt-in for people who are willing to recieve such calls? Oh wait, that would be nobody.
Not sure what others have experienced, but the number of telemarketing calls that I have recieved since signing up for the list, has dropped from 5-10 PER DAY to about one a week. The federal do-not-call list is one of the few really useful things that the government has done in as long as I can remember. Yes, I hear that telemarketers are rapidly losing jobs, but for some reason I just can't bring myself to care. It might have something to do with the fact that before the list, I had to shelve my answering machine, unless I wanted to come home to 20 minutes of advertising after a day of work.
I knew they'd find a way to screw it up.
There's a Starman, waiting in the sky / He'd like to come and meet us, but he hasn't got the time.
well this reminded me of the one simpsons episode with Homer's phone spamming machine. But in all seriousness, do people really think by overriding the whole not calling list really will increase their sales. This list says that the people will not purchase their stupid crap no matter how much they call so dont even bother; and yet they still think that by overriding the list that they will increase their sales. If they actually do increase sales with this, please give me the list of who bought the crap and i will go over to each of their houses and beat every one of them, then stick their face in whatever they bought, just like an untrained dog learning to be potty trained, and say, "no...". If i get a spam phone call, i will track their house down and their house will accidently light on fire. So is it really worth it to them? i dont think so...
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. - Catcher in the Rye
What a terrible thing for my government to do. For people to comply, they must have access to the list. So, people will now be able to use the list to get numbers of contacts they've had in the past?
I really, really, really, fucking hate these bastards who are using my tax $$$ for this bullshit propaganda. The FTC has a fucking marketing department? It's the fucking government. They don't need to sell, everyone in the U. S. is forced to be a customer. They each deserve a good, hard punch in the face.
I hope these calm words will help.
--- Ban humanity.
But then, I don't waste my time with telemarketers either. Here's how the average telemarketing call to my house goes:
Me: Hello?
TM: Hello, can I speak with [horrible attempt to pronounce my name]--"
click!
Nothing personal, but I don't let them get the first sentence out. And I've noticed that I get much fewer calls than before. I suspect a refusal to listen gets noted somewhere in some database and eventually you get fewer calls as a result. Try it. Unless it involves bombing a third-world nation somewhere, you probably shouldn't rely on a government run by George W. Bush to get something like this done right.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Guess what? There is NO way I'm going to do business with a cold caller from another continent.
The annoying thing is the various country do-not-call arrangements do not cross country boundaries.
The only cold calls I now get are from the USA trying to sell me timeshares in Florida or to tell be I've "won" some price in some game I never entered.
Is to get every bit of information about Mr. Allen Hile of the FTC's division of marketing practice and put it everywhere we can on the internet. He's fucking us, let's fuck him.
This has always worked for me.
1.Turn off phone ringer, use phone for outgoing calls only.
2. Buy a simple pager, If you want someone to call you, just tell them to page you and you'll call them back.
It's worked for me for the past 12 years, I haven't received one telemarketer call In the whole 12 years I've been doing it.
Oh, BTW, junk mail makes good compost and is also good to use for writing notes.It also makes a great paper mache' for your kids school projects or even for yours if you are the artsy type.
I for one welcome our new European overloards.
Someone had to do it.
Military recruiters are the worst. I had been expecting a phone call from a company where I was ordering something. A message was left on my answering machine around that time, asking to speak to me and leaving an 800 number, but not saying who was calling. Foolishly thinking this could possibly be a call regarding the order (from a mom&pop operation), I returned the phone call. The phone was answered by a recruiter, US Army. Miffed (they'd called recently already and I'd asked to be taken off their list), I hung up without so much as a hello. Not surprisingly, I was greeted with a return call, asking if I'd just called and hung up. I informed him that his call was unwelcome. He said it was rude to call someone and immediately hang up. I informed him that it was even more rude to leave a phone message on my machine without identifying oneself, especially since the call was unwanted.
Finally, I asked him to take me off his list and never call again. He replied that SINCE I HAD CONTACTED HIM, he could not remove me. Knowing the conversation never goes anywhere and such people have rarely been considerate of my suggestions to end the conversation, I took the initiative to hang up myself. I expect they'll call again in a few months, and the whole circus parade can begin anew. Since they are always so eager to stay on the line, perhaps I'll buy a karaoke machine for the occasion.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
Um. Let's see if we can follow the train of logic here.
1. Do not call registry established.
2. People who don't want to be called put their name on the list.
3. Hence, politicians figure it's okay for those people to be called.
It's like responding to the "unsubscribe" link on spams you get. If you actually say you don't want any more, you'll become inundated. Politicians are working for the spammers, not for you and me.
fifth sigma, inc.
The return on this must be so low that paying live humans to make spamcalls to Do Not Call list members makes it unprofitable. The only way to make *any* money from the DNCL is to have robots do the job. It merely makes recorded spam into a constant fixture in having a land line, without recourse, and is a baldfaced free $$$$ giveaway to telemarketing companies. Plain and simple.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
The only thing that makes me feel a little good about all this talk about possible phone 'spam' is that I do not think it will ever (hopefully) become as widespread as typical e-mail spam is. I think the airtime charges alone would keep a lot of overseas would-be spammers out of the game. ::knocks on wood::
ItWasFree.com - Take the mystery
These tactics seem to work very well on the elderly.
l _apact1.htm m
Here are a few examples:
http://seniorhealth.about.com/library/eldercare/b
and another http://aging.state.ny.us/news/letter/0109scam2.ht
Most people will just hang up, but as with email spam, it only takes a few suckers to make the whole system profitable for the scum.
The scum would really love to get a hold of phone listing so they could send out their "you have won a prize in our free give away" calls.
FUCK THAT SHIT! FUCK FTC'S MARKETING CRAP!
FTC, Your jobs exist because we gave implied consent in the United States Constitution for you to regulate TRADE BETWEEN THE STATES. We DO NOT CONSENT to your fucking "pre-recorded call" sales-pitch ovious-moneygrab PHONE SPAM!
See you in 2K6...
who get put on the list by friends and family? Grandma Miffy can't say no? Put her on the do no call list so she stops wasting her Social Security checks on junk.
Besides, with most call centers in India/Indonesia/Malaysia/etc, it becomes cost effective even with only a 1% or so return. When you're paying someone 35 cents/hr. to do phone calls, you don't need a lot of business.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
You know what would be a fantastic gadget to have? A device that you could connect between a landline wall socket and the phone and you have a nice big button on the device.
When you push that button, it would cut you off until you let go and emit a nice clean ear piercing 20Khz tone as powerfully as possible down the line.
That way when a telemarketer calls, speak softly so they listen up then press.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
This is why it's for prerecorded spam only. Having robots do the work is the only way to make it profitable. It's probably better seen as a law to make receiving recorded spam mandatory over land lines, with unwanted calls such as these becoming background noise. Funny to think whether cellphone lobbyists are behind this at all, to make land lines less attractive. [removes tinfoil hat]
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
This provision needs to be there...otherwise, the "stretching" could go the other way to prevent Blockbuster from calling me and reminding me that Halo 2 is overdue. That's valid, and they should be allowed to do that even through we're on do-not-call. If it's not, someone will find a way to abuse it so that no commercial entity can call them legally...heh, easy way to get back at credit collectors: sue them under do-not-call and give them the money you win. This seems to me like the greater evil.
I'm not sure how "established business relationship" can be abused, since a former relationship doesn't exist anymore and shouldn't be allowed to justify calling me now. Of course, we'll have to see how the law is worded....
I thought businesses with which you already have a prior business relationship can call you already...I get recorded calls from the Walgreens all the time saying that a prescription is ready to pick up...how's that different?
ZuluPad, the wiki notepad on crack
How are we supposed to report these places if they resort to tactics like this? Next time, I'll be smarter and get the phone number (in case we're disconnected, of course) before asking for a supervisor.
Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
I'm utterly stunned that these changes are even under consideration, and at taxpayer expense!
I live currently in Sydney, Australia. I have a US VoIP phone number on NDNCL, with extra anti-marketing features, and *still* manage to receive unsolicited calls from businesses that I never authorized to make such calls. I sometimes enjoy joking with the callers, "Yes, New South Wales is really a state. I don't know why it doesn't show up on your computer. Didn't you know, Australia is part of America now?"
I believe that telephone number disclosure (some outfits demand a telephone number to conduct business) should include written opt-in consent for use of that telephone number beyond the scope of the immediate transaction.
I've often remarked how much I like 'free' local calls within the USA, as opposed to most other places in the world where each call receives a flagfall. I'm beginning now to see the benefit of a caller-pays system, at least in the case of 'business-to-consumer' calls!
free $$$ does not really exist. They will have to pay for these machines, have them maintained, and also pay for the electricity on the machines. This is a much costly endeveur that the the daily revenue would be negative... Oh well, it would bring much joy to me to see the telemarketers loose money and become bankrupt, that would be if really the telemarketers were not inmates (simpsons episode).
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. - Catcher in the Rye
Pre-recorded calls should all be illegal unless you've specifically told a company that they can call you with a recording because it's impossible to ask the recording to stop calling you. So, you end up getting a call for a congressional representative who you'd never vote for every single day, and you have no way to tell them to stop calling.
ZuluPad, the wiki notepad on crack
Does a lawsuit count as an "established business relationship" ?
Pre-recorded marketing messages are the worst kind, in my opinion. Why can't we just ban these?
A similar restriction should apply to the predictive dialing systems that automatically call you, then ask you to wait patiently for a person to talk to you.
I'd like to know that, if I have to receive unwanted commercial phone calls, at least these companies have to hire actual people to make the calls.
I've been receiving a lot of these calls lately. What I've started to do now is sit there while watching TV and call these buggers with redail. Waste as much of their time as possible, fill up their voice mailbox etc. If even 1% of people did this, their system would grind to a halt and they would soon give up this type of advertising. ps. Its usually Boris' moving company calling me (almost weekly)
with damned prerecorded message, there is no one on the other line to tell "TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!!". So they keep calling you.
I got a call from a company selling stairlifts a few weeks ago. Not having much else to do, I played along. It went a little like this:
Them: Hi, I'm calling from Stairlifts Inc. Do you ever have trouble getting up the stairs in your home?
Me: Oh, yes. Quite often.
Them: Are you over 50?
Me: Yes. [I'm not, but what do they know?]
Them: Could we interest you in a meeting with our salesman?
Me: That'd be nice. [We arrange a date, I give them a false address]
Them: Thank you very much! He'll be along soon.
Me: Thank YOU. Please remind your salesman that it's the 1st bungalow on the left.
*CLICK*
Whad' I do?
PocketGamer.org - For the gamer on the go!
More to the point, the telephone is a resource for which we all shell out good money, and I don't recall ever seeing anything in my contract with the phone company that says I authorize its use for telemarketing purposes. The entire telemarketing industry (and I use the term loosely because they produce nothing) completely crosses the line, period, as a parasitic, unjustified, unprincipled misuse of the national communications system. It should be illegal for that reason alone, and frankly I don't care if you are a deserving charity, or Mother Theresa herself for that matter. It is MY GODDAMN PHONE ... get the hell off it unless I said you can use it.
... they'll eventually worm their way around it or just blatantly disregard it and write off the occasional fine as a cost of doing business. I don't think we're going to win this one.
... I see it's from some company I've never heard of so I ignore it. An automated telemarketing message was left, I forget what about. Whatever. So then a minute or so later, the phone rings again. Only now, it's blocked (private) but the same message is left. Obviously they were hoping that I might pick it up the second time thinking it would be someone important. That was when I started blocking private calls. *click*.
Congress outlawed junk faxes some years ago, and it worked for a while. However, my fax server was getting about a dozen a day (five days in Cancun for only $300! Free timeshare in Florida!) 'til I moved. Fortunately they haven't found me yet, but given that this activity is already illegal I don't expect telemarketers to be any more respectful of the law
My home network has a server that handles a lot of tasks, including email, faxing and caller ID services. I have the capability to simply hang up on any unrecognized incoming calls (if the call comes in blocked or private all the other side hears is a "click*.) If you're blocking your number I presume you're someone I don't care to hear from. *click*. If the FTC neuters the DoNotCall list in this way, I'll have to configure my system to ignore any calls not on the accepted list. I would allow emergency calls to go through with a touchtone bypass code, but that alone would stop automated telemarketing.
One day I'm sitting at home and the phone rings
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Is there another form letter people are sending in? If not please feel free to use this as a starting point for your submittals.
Dear FTC, I thought that this whole matter was decided over a year ago. Over 60 million people signed up for the do not call list. Why are you trying to change the rules after that fact. Once, I would like to see a government agency actually look out for the citizens of this country instead of bowing to large business. If this is such a good idea for the members of the do not call list, make it an opt-in change. That way people get to decide if they want to be contacted by a pre-recorded message. If people wanted to be contacted via pre-recorded message then they could. However, I believe 60 million out of 60 million wouldn't opt-in, that's why they signed up for the do no call list. If the FTC has any backbone and wants to represent the people on the do not call list, they will not pass this rule. Thanks for the time, A very, very concerned citizen
I don't bother reporting sales calls. I have a simple policy. If any business calls me,
I will never, ever, buy anything from them again period.
I have been disappointed not to receive a call from Microsoft, but hey with this new arrangement I might get lucky.
I don't have a cell phone and never will!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
If the call is not worth the labor of a real person to make the call, then it is not worth the labor of the consumer who must answer that call.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
If they are going to advertise to me over that medium, why aren't _THEY_ the one's paying for it? The system seems to work for television, after all.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Any attempt to water down the Do Not Call list should be fought tooth and nail. Hell, it's one of the very few things to come out of Washington in the last thirty-five years that works most of the time. We are the taxpayers and the FTC works for us, as individuals, not any corporate group. This is just a cheap replacement for the boiler room call centers.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
OK, how many people went to the link and filled it out? How much you want to bet that that link actually is tied to a telemarketer and you have now established a business relationship with them. They now have you name and information and can proceed to make calls at all hours of the day and night.
Having been on the do not call list since the begnining I can say that it has worked very well. Where I used to get a couple of calls a day I have recevied only a hand full of calls over the last year. For those that I could get a company name or phone number I have reported them. I received a call yesterday that seems to be the new method of annoying people. The phone number is blocked and it is a recording, this case offering free travel, after giving the pitch with no mention of a company name they want you to leave your name and phone number so they can get back to you. Kind of like tele-spam (registered trademark pending on the term tele-spam). Well hopefully I cost them some time since I tried my best to fill up as much tape/disk as possible telling them just what I thought about them calling someone on the do not call list. Hopefully it consumed a fair amount of time as they had other people listen to the message I left. Slow them down from processing any morons that actually left their information.
If you rely on Government to help you, you'll get screwed every time. If you want to be defended against spam, junk calls, etc., the only effective means is to take matters into your own hands.
1. Get a telephone answering machine.
2. Do not answer the telephone unless the caller identifies himself and his intentions and proves to be someone you want to talk to.
This gets rid of all junk calls, and is not thwarted by caller ID faking.
Problem solved, simply and easily.
The only thing that bothers me about treating these private numbers differently is that sometimes people who I want to talk to are using them (people calling from their office, for example). One time I answered the phone in a bothered tone and what do you know, one of my contract employers was on the other end of the line. Oops! Oh well, people who frequently make outside calls should have friendly measures in place such as revealing their phone number.
That's the worst kind! At least with a person, we can toy with them.
Of course, I got thrown in the 'endless hold for angry customers' (Verified on the newsgroups). After five times trying to get ahold of someone who could fix this ever increasing volume of calls, I lost it and started a barrage of calls using 5 lines and an autodialer. I would get to just before where an operator picked up, and put them on hold, then move to the next line. I got amazingly good at it, and picked up the line on some telemarketing stragglers screaming, "WHO IS THIS!?!".
I kept this up for an hour, which I am pretty sure fucked up their profit margin on that day.
Still more calls a few days later - I guess they thought I wasn't serious. Another polite request to talk to the manager, and a dump into endless hold.
Operation Eternal Freedom went into effect again, and this time I feigned an old lady's voice, "I'm trying to reach my son, -insert name here-", on every seventh call. The others went right to hold, until they found no one on the line and hung up. Of course, I was ready with an autodialed response. 45 minutes (while waiting for a backup to complete) later, I called it a day.
Third time, three 45 minute sessions - I got where I could do it one handed on speakerphone, and get some real work done.
No more calls after that.
Did they get my message? I left about 2,463.
Took me to a picture of a woman with shit all over her.
This proposal on recorded calls is an awful idea. I signed up for the DNC list because I do not want phone calls trying me to sell me things. I don't want people to call me and I don't want machines to call me. There's a reason I signed up for the DNC list. I don't want calls. From anyone. At any time. I demand that the FTC reject this proposal.
Short, but I hope to the point.
Using the bare min of personal info (no phishing). "There still is overwhelming support of a 'do not call list' because we do _not_ want to be called. Our information was offered in good faith that it would be used to stop harrasing calls by telemarketers. Do not allow a loophole to be opened that would destroy the reason this list was created in the first place. What difference does it make, a live person vs. a pre-recorded message? Other than, "they" don't have to pay for all the telemarketers? Having a recording doesn't allow me to request being removed from their call list. If I wanted to listen to a voice rambling on about a useless product I have no intention of buying, I would have never signed up. If you provide the callers with this, you are merely giving them the information that I have already removed from their use. How many times must we demand to be left in peace?" It took a few tries, and it's still barely coherent, i hope i got my point across.
I had a great sig.. then I lost my penmanship.
How can I say this nicely? Believe me, I'm struggling with it.
This is a load of bull. For years these telemarketers were 90% of the calls I recieved and now you want to help this slime get back in business.
There is NOTHING I like about telemarketing and I don't appreciate the FTC creating loopholes for these snakes to slither thru.
The only way this would be acceptable to me is if you created another list of people that don't want to recieve these calls, because, believe me, I don't want somebody marketing their junk on my telephone.
Instead of helping out these people, why don't you get on the ball and do something about this SPAM deluge?
Boy, I'm sure glad I voted republican. Those damn do-gooder liberals would undoubtedly sell the do not call list to... uh... well...
Hey, you've established a business relationship, right?
Call him up every day and ask if he'd like to buy some random object in your possession.
Offer to take him off your list if he'll take you off his.
Especially try to sell things that would get him kicked out of the military. Offer to sell him gay porn.
hey, somebody mod this guy up: he at least has a solution to talk about instead of just fuming at the stupidity of it all.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
We don't demand that every e-mail we receive from a company be typed by hand. (Would we really want Amazon to hand-type our order confirmations?) Why demand it for the phone? When I have an overdue library book, the library automatically calls me to let me know. This is a great use of an automated phone recording system. I recognize there is a potential for abuse, but preventing all recorded phone calls is a far too broad solution. Limiting what a qualifies as a "business relationship" makes more sense.
When I say "Do Not Call Me" I mean exactly that. No exceptions. And, while we're on the subject, pre-recorded messages should be banned altogether unless they are from a service you own or are paying for such as a home or office security system. I want a human at the other end of the line that I can cuss at if the call pisses me off.
The feds have a**-raped us so many times, this should not surprise. When the federal government comes to your door and offers to be your friend and savior, RUN FOR THE HILLS.
I am against this proposed rule change and all phone calls that take my time without prior approval. My time is sacred to me and should not be taken by marketers that have not paid a premium in advance for it. On the other hand, if the rule is amended that telemarketers will pay those which they call around a $100 a minute then I might consider it. Until then please deny any proposed rule changes that allow marketers to call my house.
And how do I know that the online "comments" form isn't really a phishing expedition?
Please post a link to the actual ftc.gov page that in turn links to the public comments page.
I've worked third shift jobs and know that many people like to work from home at night or just stay up late. This leaves us time to sleep and escape the rays of the evil day star. Getting telephone calls during our deepest sleep cycles makes us really, really pissy. Like pissy enough to aim our cars at fellow travellers. Pissy enough to punch children. Pissy enough to swear at customers and lose our jobs. Etc. Telemarketers are evil. Period. Except my cable company. They give me HBO for X-mas.
-- the only good thing the French ever did was two chicks at one time
Well, my feeling is that a legitimate business shouldn't have a problem revealing its phone number, and as a private citizen I generally don't particularly care if someone knows my number. If I didn't want them to know I wouldn't have called them (well, okay ... I feel differently about my cell phone number because there are only a few individuals that I want to contact me that way.) But anyway, the Caller ID system does distinguish between calls from exchanges that don't support the service (i.e., an "out of area" call) vs. ones that are deliberately blocked (i.e. "private".) "Out of area" calls I'll pick up, but if it's blocked ... have a nice day. Blocking is done on-purpose, and no-one I want to talk to has any reason to do that. Oh sure, it's possible that something could get screwed up in the phone system and it might send an erroneous code, but that's the price you pay for privacy, I guess.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Never fear ... I'm fuming at the stupidity of it all too.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
IT sucks that we are cruel to tele-monkeys, however causing the massive turnover costs managment extra money in both recruiting and training, as well as jacking up the pay for this job. So I say send the pain and be as mean as possible.
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
I honestly think the wrong number problem with cell phones is merely a scam, used by the cellular operators to increase their revenue, since both parties end up paying for the wrong numbers...
Oh well, what the hell...
Just let a modem pick up the line... SCREECH*SCREECH*DOING*SCREEECH... Used to be a common method of getting rid of unwanted callers.
;)
But in fact, it does zero good to hang up on, annoy, or (worst of all since it PEGS you as a prospect) argue with telemarketers. What DOES work is to say in a Properly Annoyed Voice: "I'm SUPPOSED to be on your Do Not Call list!! You better put me back on your do not call list, or I will report you to the FTC!" They about pee themselves backing away and apologizing, and you never hear from them again.
And if you do this a few times, ALL the calls go away -- because most telemarketers use a master DNC list. Newspapers are the best for getting yourself DNC'd by the whole world. After I told the Los Angeles Daily News to never call me again, within a few weeks I stopped getting ANY telemarketing calls, and 15 years later I'm STILL not getting any junk calls.
(Yes, this post repeats what I've said every time the subject comes up. Apparently Slashdot readers are slow learners.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Thats the most tastefull frosting I can put on the message I just sent them turkeys.
:) Now I can type my usual sig.
I'm amazed at the apparent attempts at sugar coating and makeing light of this I read in the first 10 messages here tonight, shame on those who have nothing better to do than laugh at someone elses mis-fortune. At risk of getting sued by Johnny Carson, may the bird of paradise fly up your nose...
I'd suggest you all follow the link and let your displeasure run rampant.
I compared it to stealing cable service, but I asked who do we arrest when they steal the phone service I'm paying about $107 a month for.
Or who is to blame when the frustration causes yet another person to "go postal"?
Seemed like some very good questions to me.
There, I feel better already.
Cheers, gene
Or elderly parent living with you? A typical family includes more then a single parent who doesn't purchase from telesales calls.
Quack, quack.
We haven't recieved one telemarketer call for months now. Quite happy about that, used to get one from the same company every day at almost the same time, told them not to call at least 2-3 times a week.
the Political Inquirer
Actually, though, I wouldn't mind them allowing this, IF AND ONLY IF the following provision(s) existed: Telemarketers could call IF AND ONLY IF they would send a payment of $100 to the person being called EACH TIME they called, with NO strings attached to the payment, PLUS $5 for every minute the person being called is kept on the phone, where each minute begins in the first second of that minute, with no pro-rating of minutes, and the recording is made to repeat in a loop indefinitely, such that the person being called may, at his option, listen to the same recording an infinite number of times, or simply put the phone down and keep the line open, to increase the amount of the payment, with a mandatory federal sentence of 50 years being applied to each stockholder and employee of the offending company if they are reported not to have sent the funds within a reasonable amount of time, or three days, whichever is shorter, even if they have proof that they have. Then, I wouldn't mind.
A couple years ago, I got a telemarketing call
and as the lady was starting her opening line, she
started laughing her head off for some reason. I
happened to be in a very bad mood when she called,
and I slammed the phone down. She actualy tried
to call back, but I let the phone ring.
I imagine the mood on her end changed
from "struck funny" to "shitting a brick"
after I hung up.
Hello,
Your proposed rule changes regarding telemarketing sales is perplexing. I can only imagine that people who sign up for a Do Not Call list want to receive fewer (possibly zero) phone solicitations. This proposed rule change will increase the number of unwanted solicitations, so I ask that you reject it.
I believe that the pre-existing business relationship exception is reasonable because individuals may have specifically requested that an agent notify them of opportunities (perhaps a stock broker or a real estate agent). However, I find it quite difficult to imagine an automated phone solicitation which a person who signed up for the Do Not Call list would want to receive. It is much more likely that these low cost automated solicitations are from a company with which the customer does not have a strong relationship (such as a telephone or television company) selling a product which the customer does not want.
After all, if a significant percentage of targetted people actually wanted to buy the solicited service, it would be in the marketer's best interest to use human operators which have a higher success rate.
Finally, rule changes such as this erode citizen confidence in the FTC, as this is a clear indication that the FTC works for business, not people. So, please reject this rule change to preserve confidence and protect people from unwanted and wasteful solicitations.
Allowing any sort of loophole based on a "prior business relationship" like this is ripe for abuse by the telemarketing industry. Without a concrete definition of "prior business relationship," the recipient has no way of ENDING said relationship, leaving him/her open to continued harassment at the hands of telemarketers.
I mean that there should be a National "Do Call" list instead of a Do-Not-Call list. Anyone that wants these calls has to sign up. Then everyone would be happy.
What this country needs is a kill-squad. All of the parasites who add nothing to society but exist solely by preying off the weakness and stupidity of others, in complete flagrant disregard for the law, need to be removed, quietly, from society. A knock at the door one day during dinner, they climb into a van with the nice people, and three months later they're fertilizing your flower bed. Sadly, I suspect the first to go would be the board of directors for the majority of businesses in America. Ah well, I guess that's what we get for living in a country based on Capitalism.
Why bother hiring someone to call me? Just send your product to me for free. If I like it, I'll tell someone about it. And maybe they will buy one. I'll spread the word for those things truly useful. But if your product sucks, I wasn't going to buy it when you call me and invade my privacy any way. Companies will save thousands on call lists and employee costs. And if their products are truly useful, they'll get the word out from convinced users, and not from some scripted telemarketer message.
The notion of an established business relationship has historically been abused by telemarketers. Recognizing this, the FCC has sunset the established business relationship exception to the TCPA rules involving unsolicited faxes. After June 30, 2005, the FCC requires a signed statement by the recipient, specifying a specific telephone number, before a marketing-related fax can be sent to that recipient. (Ref FCC Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, June 26, 2003, revising 47 C.F.R. 64.1200(a)(3)(i))
Since the petitioner has proposed that the FTC should follow the FCC in this area, it would be appropriate for the FTC at this time to similarly sunset its established business relationship exception. This will simplify compliance for business by providing a consistent rule across agencies.
As for the predictive dialing issue, the marketplace has already provided several commercial predictive dialer systems which are advertised as capable of complying with current FTC regulations. Thus, no relaxation of FTC rules is required in this area.
Target was offering 'free' wakeup calls for people on the the Day after Thanksgiving. I wonder if this creates a "prior business relationship?"
I bet it does.
Hello,
It is my understanding that the FTC is considering opening a hole in the "Do Not Call" registry to allow pre-recorded messages to be sent to people on the list as long as there is some kind of business relationship.
Please don't do this thing. Ordinary experience shows that companies will stretch the definition of "pre-existing business relationship" to nonsensical, illogical and reality defying lengths. Furthermore, it is obvious that any one actual business or group of interests can use a constantly shifting screen of fronts to keep pestering people. This kind of non-sense is a fact of life, and the Do-Not-Call registry offered a little blessed relief, and it had some minor teeth to help the reluctant get the idea.
Even a seemingly small hole like this will largely destroy one of the best bang-for-the-buck acts your group has done. It has brought a lot of credit to you and this kind of non-sense would take all of that away and then some. This kind of failure would be evidence of something that is worse than the ordinary malaise one expects out of a large government agency, that is actual treachery. One would be quite correct to point out that this is a rabid and emotional response, but in this citizen's view, this is exactly what is happening.
Really, If the offers being pitched in these pre-recorded assaults are that good, they should have the decency to use a human. If it is actually useful, I'll probably already know about it anyway.
There is a strong trend among people of a certain age to use a cellular phone as their primary if not only telephone, and to supplement that with VoIP and IM goodness. I can only assume that your group is well aware of this. Fine tuned control and convenience are two of the big reasons people are going this way. It is, therefore, obvious that anything that hurts this type of experience can only accelerate the trend. If you get any grief from the telephone companies because the proposed policy would hurt their business with tele-marketers you might point out that they will have many fewer targets if they don't behave themselves.
Please keep the Do-Not-Call registry what it is, a Do-Not-Call-Me-With-Your-Idiotic-Plan-To-Take-My- Money-During-Supper list. Please act in the public interest, squash this political varmint immediately.
Did I miss anything? Who else actually said something other than "go-to-hell, you fascist pricks?" Regulatory agency findings are one of the greatest fountains of law, just like statutory and found law. We can't let this stuff slide!
Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
How does the consumer end the "pre-existing business relationship"? If a business calls me, because they claim one of those with me, they should have to submit evidence to the do-not-call registry. I should be able to cancel that relationship by contacting that registry, either before or after they submit their evidence, or call me. Then they shouldn't be able to call me. Otherwise it's just corporate stalking, like some fatal marketing attraction.
--
make install -not war
I wanted to express my feeling against this change. There already exists a provision to allow companies to contact people on the Do Not Call List in which the company has an existing relationship with already. But this is limited to actual people placing the calls. By changing this to allow tape recorded calls, the person on the Do Not Call List has no easy means to tell the company calling to NOT call them anymore. The existing relationship clause, has already been stretched to allow many companies to call people who have clearly expressed that they DO NOT WISH TO BE CALLED for marketing purposes. By changing this to allow pre-recorded messages, that person can no longer simply tell the company to take them off their call list. Instead, they will be forced to listen to the recording, hopefully get a company name, find a contact number, call that company, finally get someone on the phone, most likely be transfered around to several departments, and possibly finally get someone who can take them off the call list, but most likely will never be able to do so, because the phone advertising was outsourced to some unknown company which is the one that actually makes the calls, and thus, have no way of knowing that the person being called wants off the call list.
Feel free to copy and/or make slight changes for your own quick and easy comments.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
You know, I have Vonage VOIP and they give away caller id for free on incoming calls, and I always know when it's a telemarketer, it says "BLOCKED". So I have this advanced, CPU-driven behemoth of a VOIP router in my home, and I'm not allowed to program this thing to block some calls? It's ridiculous! Vonage doesn't even sell an ACL-list feature! What the hell is wrong with VOIP providers? Why aren't they giving us per-number call handling? I want a voice router feature that says "dump blocked caller id". Ridiculous.
Agree to go see the recruiter and set up a date and time. One hour later, call back and tell them you've changed your mind.
In my case, the recruiter hung up before I could even say "Good bye," and I never received another call from any branch.
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
my fax server was getting about a dozen a day (five days in Cancun for only $300! Free timeshare in Florida!)
I was getting about a dozen a day too, but about 1/3 of them were from outfits offering to sell me toner cartridges cheap. I could pretty much tell the ones selling ink just by looking at how densely the page was printed.
We worked with...
...
...
...
...
...
...
Who was working on the set of Flatliners with Kevin Bacon
Who's brother...
Who walked you dog once last year, so as you can see, we are practically family. BTW, we don't take checks.
If the measure will be allowed in the future, there'll definitely be a niche market for devices that stand between the phone line and the phone to filter out spam calls. I know there are a few out there now. In fact, phone service providers could definitely add a little more value to their service if they add this feature--they could even quarantine the call for users to mark as true spam or not, just like for email.
Linux at home
Yeah, I got a whole bunch of those too, I like I would ever buy anything from a junk fax or a spam anyway, just on principle. I finally turned off automatic printing and just had the server convert incoming faxes into .TIFFs and stuff them into a folder so I could review them on-screen later. I mean, it got to the point every time I was waiting for a fax the damn printer was out of paper.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
...it seems to me that, as a concerned citizen, I have an existing business relationship with my government.
What's this clown's number again?
Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
They're hoping that just maybe their superior sales skills and experience can con you into buying something you don't want, or falling prey to a scam. Getting the first few words in will make or break a deal.
Thats why they try so hard. They have to 'get their foot in the door'.
One company called me and was selling computers (used) and I asked them if I had done business with them before. They said no, and I asked them for their company name. They then replied that they knew what I was doing, and that it wouldn't work. They hung up.
I called the phone company. Called ID said something to the affect of Unknown or Unlisted, and the phone company said that since they were unlisted, they couldn't give me any information.
I told them that said company was in violation of the DNC list, and that I intended to report them to the proper authorities, and they said that they STILL couldn't give me any info.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
THEN blow the whistle in HIS (or her) ear. Tele pool managers are usually assholes from what I hear.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Well, the quiet was nice while it lasted. Hey, shouldn't we have figured out some more advanced form of standard communication than the phone by now?
Great
Yet Another Asshole potenial BS
suckers! you all do-not-call signatories! All Dubya voters! hahahahha! how did you ever believe that they are going to shield you for ever? Its like Jews believing in Hitler when he said that the tatoo they get is for their own protection.
bwahahahaha.
I got sick of FAX spam at work, especially since most of them came from the same Canadian company I couldn't contact directly. They left only a (toll-free) removal number.
:)
The first time, I tried it. I think they stopped for all of a month.
Once they restarted, I decided to make us unprofitable to FAX. I called their toll-free removal number, and when asked to confirm that I had entered the correct number, I would press "2" for no, starting the whole process over again. Then I automated this with just the autodialer on the phone. It got to the point that when I got through (which wasn't often), the autodialer could hold their line open for upwards of an hour. To prevent this from tying up the main phone line, I tapped the FAX line so that it now was usable on one office phone (in addition to the FAX) only -- mine. Once the legitimate FAXes stopped at 5 pm, but I still had hours to kill before the day's paperwork arrived, I'd set the autodialer to work. All I had to do was hit a button if the phone actually got through to the removal service. Having access to the FAX line also came in handy at other times, but that was just a nice side effect of the need to autodial.
Since we had a toll-free line ourselves, I knew they were probably paying about 7 or 8 cents a minute for their incoming calls. I wanted to cost them ten dollars a day, but I just couldn't get through all that often as the line was almost always busy (big surprise).
Then I got the bright idea to subject one of our contractors (who NEVER paid on time, or paid less than was billed) to a little annoyance of their own, so I had the autodialer helpfully "remove" them instead of ourselves. This part at least I know to have worked, their level of Canadian FAX spam tripled instantly. It didn't get us any of the owed money, but it still felt nice.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
At least the time-share companies give you a microwave oven. These phone-tards just waste our time without anything to show for it. I want a system whereby they have to pay *me* every time they call me.
-Andres.
My home network has a server that handles a lot of tasks, including email, faxing and caller ID services. I have the capability to simply hang up on any unrecognized incoming calls (if the call comes in blocked or private all the other side hears is a *fwap*.) If you're blocking your number I presume you're someone I don't care to hear from. *fwap*. If the FTC neuters the DoNotCall list in this way, I'll have to configure my system to ignore any calls not on the accepted list. I would allow emergency calls to go through with a touchtone bypass code, but that alone would stop automated telemarketing.
One day I'm sitting at home and the phone rings ... I see it's from some company I've never heard of so I ignore it. An automated telemarketing message was left, I forget what about. Whatever. So then a minute or so later, the phone rings again. Only now, it's blocked (private) but the same message is left. Obviously they were hoping that I might pick it up the second time thinking it would be someone important. That was when I started blocking private calls. *fwap*.
but it not working, see.... ...Because the people who write the checks to those congresscritters now aren't getting what they paid their money for... that is why they are now wanting to change it..
...it depends on what the definition of "us" us.
Homeless people are trash and not worth the air they stink up with their BO and piss-stained pants.
Jesus, called "the Christ", was a homeless man.
That's not a nice way to talk about the Lord and Savior of more than one billion people (Christians), and a prophet to more than a half billion more (Muslims).
The regulations already define what counts as an established business relationship. You bought something within the past 18 months or inquired within the past 3 months, and didn't specifically tell them not to call you. See URL:https://www.donotcall.gov/FAQ/FAQConsumers.asp x#ExistingBusiness .
Quis metamoderunt ipses metamoderatores?
Might have to put the SIT tones back on the answering machine. Since registering for the Do Not Call list, I have not gotten many telemarketing calls. Before the list, I used to play the SIT tone at the beginning of my greeting, and that got rid of a lot of the automated stuff. Perhaps that will have to be done again *sigh*
for providing the ftc link. I commented.
The better solution :
With every phone call you make, you need to include a token, an unique number (in some sort of "header" in the phone call) that you have bought at something like 50 cents.
When the recipient takes the phonecall, he can press "1" to return the token to you or "0" to heve the token credited on his telephone bill.
Of course, every user can decide if he wants to implement this system on the receiver side (if he does not, the the caller gets back his token automatically)
If there is an actual "prior business relation", like you bought a car or 5000 widgets last year, then the caller will probably risk 50 cents. If he just bought a CD with 10 million phone numbers, he probably wont.
With internet telephony, this does not even require the cooperation of any telcos, this could be implemented entirely within the client applications.
Anyone who makes a marketing call to me is breaking the law. Anyone. Existing relationships, political parties, charities, anyone. There's a narrow, and controlled, exemption for legitimate polling organisations, but being ex-directory kills that one stone dead. I think I get about one call from a business (other than ``your dry cleaning is ready'' or ``we need to fit brake pads, is that OK?'') per year. If you get more, you need to sort your government out.
But I forget, it's the USA, where people will put up with any shit so long as it waves a flag and claims to be ``good for business''.
Do what I do: Keep phone unplugged when not used.
:)
Stops phonespam dead in its tracks.
The ultimate 'Do Not Call List.'
I only use the phone to call others or go online.
Me calling others is not phonespam to me.
If I am online, I can't get phonespam from others.
If the phone is unplugged (but nearby), I can't get phonespam from others.
See how easy it is....
I went even further then that and block all calls that come in anonymously. You can set that up via a simple code (*99# here, ask your friendly telco if there is such a thing in your area) and reset it at any time.
An anonymous caller just gets a message around the lines that "This Swisscom customer does not accept calls from blocked numbers".
The beauty is that foreign calls, which sometime don't submit the number (very rare nowadays but it happens) get routed through. The system can dsistinguish that.
Hey, it cut down my phone spam 100% and has only one disadvantage: doctors, lawyers and banks must block their numbers by law and they can't get through. But they either have my cell #, or they find other creative ways like writing a letter.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
fwap?
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I have told you all before, but many of you are just too stupid to listen. Guess what happen now?
Do your job right - mod up not down.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating