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No Honor Among Malware Purveyors
metalion writes "True to the saying 'no honor among thieves,' adware company, Avenue Media, is finding that competing adware company, DirectRevenue, is detecting and deleting their software. Now Avenue Media is crying foul and have filed a lawsuit against DirectRevenue stating that DirectRevenue 'knowingly and with intent to defraud, exceeded its authorized access to users' computers.' DirectRevenue acknowledges that it may uninstall competing applications in its user license agreement. A researcher at Harvard University, Ben Edelman, reasons that 'Once the computer is infected with 10 different unwanted programs, the person is likely to take some action to address the situation.' Just how far will adware companies go to continue to attempt to bombard us with their ads?"
We all have been complaining about malware for years. . .
Now they are complaining about themselves.
When does it stop?
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Maybe they will destroy each other in an orgy of program deletion :D Neverthought spyware would be spyware removal . . . . .
My Portfolio
Lesser of two evils...
Makes you wonder who the judge will side with.
Reminds me of the stories of people calling the police because someone stole their weed.
God spoke to me.
" Just how far will adware companies go to continue to attempt to bombard us with their ads?""
When ads are burned into BIOSes.
Maybe then people will take some action against these bullshit programs.
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
We should require by law that when a spyware application installs itself, it must uninstall another spyware application without damaging the host system, and further that it put itself into add/remove programs. Then we should just shoot the bastards that don't comply. Oughta solve the malware problem...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Just how far will adware companies go to continue to attempt to bombard us with their ads?
A) As far as they think they need to go
B) As far as they are allowed to go and remain on the right side of the law
C) As far as they need to go despite the law
D) All of the above
E) Profit?
F) CowboyNeal
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
great idea, put all the malware to fight, and the survivor gets to be deleted by spybot.
More fun than core wars
Now if only we could make these malware programs only target other malware programs and not the operation of the PC...
We could have a little battlebots competition! The Amazing Bonzi takes on reigning champion THE GATOR.
That way, competition would again benefit us, the regular consumer.
:)
Personally, ad/malware is one of the rare reasons I would encourage less strict weapon laws...
-Is the meaning of life vanity, or is vanity the meaning of life?
If they succed with the lawsuit against DirectRevenu , what does that mean for software like ad-aware?
Sometimes you just wish that both sides can lose...
Two programs fighting for dominance on my computer? Brings me back to my AOL on Windows days.
Ironic that they file a lawsuit of thier program being removed when they didn't (explicitly) ask permission to get there in the first place. Maybe we all should just download Virtual bouncer to clean off our systems....oh, wait....
That second company should just make their software uninstall their competitors, then stop and not install anything else. Then they could sell it as anti-spyware software and make an honest living.
I hope they win the lawsuit. If they were to get the courts to agree that hiding malicious wording in the EULA is fraud then that would be a nice boon to shutting some of these people down.
In fact, just about any attack on the concept of click-through EULAs is pretty good in my book. Scream "contract!" all you want, they're bad for me personally and bad for the industry. Consent and informed consent are two different things and it appears the industry has completely abandonded any pretext of the latter.
TW
From TFA: "You further understand and agree, by installing the software, that the software may, without any further prior notice to you, remove, disable or render inoperative other adware programs resident on your computer." AdAware prompts me about any spyware. And I delete it. Pronto!
If it is against the law to write a virus...
Could these self installing adware/spyware programs be considered viruses? They are doing it WITHOUT the users consent. NOBODY wants these type programs installed on their computers.
A class action law suit should occure.
OCT 31 = DEC 25
Easier to ask how far the stars.
There is no limit.
There is not nearly enough love in the world, but there is far too much trust.
www.eFax.com are spammers
It's nice to think that at least one adware purveyor is going to be inconvenienced by this little tussle, but it's not so uplifting when you consider that the choice of winners is "adware company #1", "adware company #2", or "lawyers who represent adware companies".
stating that DirectRevenue 'knowingly and with intent to defraud, exceeded its authorized access to users' computers.'
That should be put in the dictionary under "hypocrisy".
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I'd like nothing better than to see two spyware companies destroy one another in a glorious battle to the death, but I'd much rather they NOT do it on MY harddrive.
I agree that there's lots of room for EULA reform.
See also my recent article about Gator's EULA (Slashdot'ed last week): Gator's EULA Gone Bad.
And is my mom and other not-so-savvy users granting said authority in the first place? This suit seems riddled with assumptions that it was legal in the first place to install such software.
And since when has malware displayed any EULA - or any UI, for that matter?
If they really want to stop the competition they'd get in and then close the door behind them, by which I mean deleting/disabling IE.
I think AvenueMedia deserves to be compensated for this. Let's give their owners the nicer of the two jail cells.
...It seems several swine seem to be swimming in their own smelly swill.
Am I the only one who thought of MAD magazine's Spy Vs. Spy when I read this? Didn't they both end up killing eachother everytime?
It's unfortunate that the user would get stuck in the middle of this. It is pretty disgusting that they don't ask you before they uninstall competitor software, especially if you use it. I can see adware bars trying to uninstall the goolge toolbar, and other, actuall legitimate programs, to put up their inferior, ad ridden crap.
This surprises you how? I've had a posting rejected and then seen the EXACT SAME story posted four days later!
Come on, this is Slashdot. You don't actually expect competence, do you?
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
So if I report on my blog site that WW III is gonna begin in 2 days, there's no point in anywhere else reporting it, as it's laready been done?
...if they started bombing each others' offices, and wiped each other off the face of the earth.
Now *that* would be great.
Except that most adware have some clause buried deep in the EULA that indicates that they will install the adware. The user clicks OK to the EULA, so technically he has given permission.
Plain and simple, people will take real action when they have enough. Then they will decide that convinience can be worse.
I wondered how long we would have to wait for this to happen. I always imagined it would be university students or black-hats. I never imagined it would be spammers/spyware authors trying to kill each other's programs.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Go and read TechReport then, and stop whining...
However, when the stupid malware companies realize that what they really need to do is be more like the true biologial parasite, then it may slow down. A RL parasite is benign to the host. If they wrote their code so that you never knew it was there, you would never know to complain now would you?
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
Perhaps also of interest:
After DirectRevenue removes competitors' programs from users' disks, it also transmits extensive information about users' computers. Among the information: MAC address, Windows Product ID, all running tasks, and registry entrise for certain additional competitors (Gator, 180solutions) and removal programs (Ad-Aware, PestPatrol) if installed.
I think this is great having spyware remove spyware. At some point, one spyware is going to remove all competitors and leave just itself on your HD. Then all we really need is just a single adware/spyware removal program and we're all clean again.
Infected in the future? Follow these steps.
1. Visit dominating spyware webpage.
2. Allow spyware to remove other spyware.
3. Run spyware removal program.
4. w00t!
Live forever, or die trying.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
like the famous lycos screensaver but much better and more performant. surf the spammers and hit them with your bandwidth.
http://www.aa419.org/ladvampire.html
open in your favourite webrowser and run it on huge broadbandconnections all day long 24/7 if you dont pay for bandwidth. dont use http-proxies for this page.
it will generate huge traffic for the scam/spam sites, and hopefully providers to shut down those damn pages.
thank you
Two ads enter one ad leaves!
There can be only one!
Gah.. my brain.
So the most effective spyware removal tool is.... spyware???
Enough shit like this and no Judge will ever take an EULA seriously.
What spyware writers need to do now is add the following features to their code:
- Random mutations
- Breeding and crossover with other spyware programs so that chunks of similar malicious code are exchanged
- A fitness evaluation function
The fitness evaluation should take into account:We all new they would eventually turn upon themselves, when they have nothing *new* left to feed upon.
It seems the day of reckoning may be seeing it's first light of dawn. Here's to hoping they all devour each other in a darwinistic orgy of competition. Maybe, in the end, each company competing will be the best form of Spyware removal tools a user could ask for.
Let the programs compete until there's a winner, then shoot the winner. Problem solved.
I have personally observed -- and recorded in screen-capture videos -- the software of both plaintiff and defendant, installed through security holes.
See e.g. Who Profits from Security Holes?.
Clearly, its the customer who is giving the other application permission to uninstall the exisitng malware. The vendors of the other application have no influence or stake in the agreement between the exisitng malware authors and the user. The only party that can breach the agreement is the user.
So, the users should be punished for violating the copyright on the software they didn't want in the first place, and was installed without their knowledge.
You get a tattoo of [insert company here]'s logo on your forehead.
There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.
Barring use of some Windows based Spyware prevention tools (most of which aren't free for corporate use), mirgating to some combination of Mac OS X and Linux would end virtually all of this and then I could charge them for stuff like implementing cool new tools for them to use instead of upkeep of a broken system. Of course, these are the same customers who won't try FireFox because it "just doesn't feel right"???
I'm truly torn between my ethics and the need to keep up my income in a crap economy.
A lady in El Paso gets a telemarketing call. She says no, repeatedly. Telemarketer ignores her, repeatedly. She hangs up, forcefully.
She later gets a letter saying:
So, we have:
OK, I move that we commit all advertisers to institutions for the criminally insane, right now.
Any seconds?
www.eFax.com are spammers
Yes. Recall Radlight removing Ad-Aware.
Users are sued for deleting malware off their computer? where do you go from here?
Or 32nd as the case may be, to say:
Serves the fuckers right
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
This reminds me of the guys who reported to the police that their pot had been stolen. Just goes to show not everyone was meant to be an entrepreneur, some are just wage-earners.
IANAL, but this is /. :P
Most 1st world legal systems (not sure whether the U.S. qualifies any more) have a "fine print" legal exemption - you can't put something onerous into an agreement and then try and hide it via tactics like fine print, or clicking through 76 pages, etc. Such clauses can be invalidated in the court.
Basically, you can't put stuff in the fine print that a "reasonable" person wouldn't expect to be agreeing to in the context of the agreement being reached.
...there needs to be a campaign to identify and discredit the advertisers who use it. If there is no money, there is no malware.
Yeah? Well I think you're overrated too.
One of the unfortunate side effects of competition is that even competition among vermin makes them more potent vermin. Now spyware authors will be shoring up their spyware defenses to ensure they are the only leech attached to the host. New, probably more sinister techniques will be developed to both protect one spyware installation as well as prevent/deactivate others. They may even take an offensive strategy to defending themselves. All this will make it even more difficult for the average user to both rid their machine of existing spyware as well as prevent the introduction of new spyware.
Let's hope the folks at Lavasoft (makers of Ad-aware) and others are ready for the almost certain onslaught of new techniques.
*brain asplodes from irony*
Yo mama so fake, she failed the Turing Test.
Didn't I see this in Mad Magazine? a black spyware and a white spyware battling for supremacy, often blowing themselves up in the process. It was pretty funny.
If I were on this jury I would intentionally deadlock, forcing a mistrial. In that way, both companies would have to pay to have another trial. I would hope the next jury would do the same.
Just how far will adware companies go to continue to attempt to bombard us with their ads?
I remember reading this short story once about an ad-infested world where there were ads on every available surface. On your toilet paper, on your pancakes, on every square inch of wall, *everywhere*. One image was the protagonist attempting to shave (with difficulty) by looking through a letter "O" on his mirror. He finally gets fed up and he meets a woman who offers him a secret place to go to get away from ads for a few hours at a time. The twist was that the tiny one-room ad-free apartment was actually a government-run re-education facility to brainwash "ad-hating dissidents" to start accepting ads again.
Anyone know this story or remember the name? Now that us TiVo people are considered TV thieves, I'm starting to feel the story to be prophectic.
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
Just how far will adware companies go to continue to attempt to bombard us with their ads?
Easy. Until people stop buying their products.
Spam wouldn't exist if it wasn't economically feasable to do so.
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
The user has just agreed to contradictory things, thus illuminating the degree to which users (expectably and reasonably) have no clue where EULA-speak is concerned.
Who wins? If both companies sue the hell out of each other and the courts call bullshit, we all do. Until that unlikely event, it's war in the trenches. Me, I'm packing plenty of MREs for the long haul.
$0.02,
ptd
I'm an animal lover -- they're delicious!
Heres hoping that spammers will get on this bandwagon, and they will all start tossing lawsuits at each other!!
Bliss!!
I thought that there *was* honor among thieves, the contradictory nature of the statement "There is honor among thieves" giving it its resonance.
Next thing you know it will install a screen saver that DOS's the competitors website!
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
How long until there's a clause in the EULA that says, "I agree not to uninstall this software, under threat of lawsuit."
In trying to clean a laptop yesterday I used Ad-Aware SE. At the end of its scanning process it allows you to select what to remove. When I got to this point one of the malwares took control of Ad-Aware quickly and added itself to the ignore list. I found this quite amazing. Part of the ignore was some of CWS, but there were other things there as well. I was able to scan again and remove the ignores. This new trend is mildly disturbing.
Hoyty
The problem with this idea is after that last great malware battle is fought on your computer, the last malware creator left standing has still his wares on your machine, still spying on you, still working to steal your private info.
I use linux so I am pretty safe for now adware wise., but this is really getting out of hand. I just thank god I don't have to do tech support on windows these days. what a nightmare for those who do.
Obama is a twitter sock puppet
As long as there's demand for their services, the services will exist. Laws won't stop it. Technology won't stop it.
Demand will stop when the ads stop working. Fact is, though, the ads work.
Think about it. Say that Average User X already has Avenue Media adware on his computer. He installs software which contains DirectRevinue spyware, part of the license agreement for which stipulates that the Avenue Media software will be removed from his computer. He does so, and the Avenue Media software is removed.
Now, say that the same user has Avenue Media adware on his computer and installs a spyware remover; say, AdAware. He runs the program, and the Avenue Media software is removed. How is this scenario any different from the first? In both cases, the user willingly downloads a program that states it will remove spyware, and it does so.
If the court rules in favor of Avenue Media, it will set a precedent that software, even if the user agrees willingly to use it and to the terms of using it, cannot remove other software that the user has willingly agreed to install. Indeed, such a decision could concievably make programs like AdAware illegal.
Now, the only case in which the court could concievably rule in favor of Avenue Media and not set such a precedent would be if Direct Revenue did not state in their EULA that they would remove Avenue Media spyware. If this is the case, then it is clearly a violation of contract law. Hopefully this will either in fact be the case, or the court will make the sane decision to side with DirectRevenue.
Many Bothans died to bring you this sig.
Can we get some malware that uninstalls ALL other Malware, then uninstalls itself? That would great!
First virus writers trying to destroy each others works, now malware creators. Whats next, is the FBI's snorting software going to be destroyed by the CIA's snorting software.
Personally, I'm glad they are fighting amongst themselves. Maybe they'll take out each other, and it'll be a better day for the rest of us.
Here's what you left off.
"El Paso police are reportedly taking the threat seriously and are searching for the person who sent the letter. "
So the story isn't really any different than some random individual sending threatening letters.
For all we know it could simply be a scam, and have nothing to do with telemarketing.
"Hello, Wowbagger. Send money...or else."
Everyone chant: ..." :)
"All go in! None come out! All go in! None come out! All go in! None come out! All go in! None come out! All go in! None come out! All go in! None come out! All go in! None come out! All go in! None come out! All go in! None come out!
Damn all-caps lameness filter.
In about 1995 I worked for a telemarketer. Yeah, I know. Anyway, I sat in a meeting once with some people from a trendy ad agency. They said one of the best ways to market things on the Internet was to visit newsgroups and message boards (what we now call blogs), and ask a question as one user, then provide the answer as another. The answer, of course, would advertize Our Fine Product.
I told them that was lying, and that it was wrong. They looked at me blankly. I may as well have been speaking Latin. I then explained a bit about Internete culture, and the negative feedback of spamming newsgroups. That, they could comprehend, but they didn't think I knew what I was talking about. Their model worked - and it wasn't lying, it was just business.
The mindset of people who spam, sell banner ads, use covert marketing, and advertize on Channel One is (to overgeneralize): whatever it takes to make money.
It doesn't matter what is "right" or "wrong" - rightness and wrongness are a matter of degree, and that degree is measured by a cost-benefit equation. If the
(likely revenue) > X% + sum of (potential costs * likelihood of each)
that's good and "right", otherwise it's bad and "wrong". 'X' represents the amount of margin you could make off some other investment.
The thing that distinguishes telemarketers and spammers is that negative feedback from non-customers doesn't bother them.
sigs, as if you care.
...but this just made my christmas! Since Santa seems to think I have been a good boy, I have a few more things to ask for...
1) A video tape of rival gangs of spammers getting in knife fights over ISP bandwith 'turf'.
2) Microsoft's Yakuzza getting irritated with SCO's failures to bring down Linux, and doing drive-bys shootings to the board menbers.
3) George Bush Jr. getting in a sissy slap-fight with John Ashcroft over the pronunciation of the word 'Nucular'.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
At least if this trend continues we'll only have 1 of these awful things running on our machine at any given time instead of 10. Better than nothing?
Have you ever asked yourself, Is It Normal?.
So, if were bound to EULAs that aren't even seen during install...
Does that mean they're (adware companies) bound to any License I say applies to my computer?
Because I think I'll just add a text file to my C:\ that says "By installing any software on this computer you agree to pay the owner $100. In addition you agree to also pay him $10 for every pop-up ad he sees."
And then just find a good lawyer... "Well they should have read my EULA before hijacking my computer" is just about as ridiculous as the legal line of reasoning that makes adware "legal" in the first place.
So... Anybody want to represent me?
If the companies that use adware don't have anyone buying their products, then they can't afford to pay an adware company. We should make it illegal to purchase products sold using adware.
Whoever wins, we lose.
I've wondered for years when someone would write the first true 'genetic algorithim' based worm/virus. It would be a fantastic and alternately, horrible landmark in computer science.
However, there is no point in designing a fitness evaluation. In real natural processes, the fitness evaluation is competition for resources. The only reason why it has to be introduced into modeled simulations is that there is no real competition in a model unless you include it. The real fitness evaluator of a virus is how easily it can spread, how hard it is to detect, and how difficult it is to remove.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
What's next, Malware re-writing it's competition to say "Tawain is part of China" so Beijing will ban them?
All your malware are belong to us.
"Shit! I lost my documents, my computer is slow as molasses, and most of my screen is covered by ads for penis enlargement pills. Hm. Maybe I should order some penis enlargement pills..."
When I got my IBM ThinkPad X31 about a year ago, I figured I might as well try to boot Windows just once to see what kind of hardware-specific tools IBM supplied. (Trying to get a refund for an operating system I did not want was not possible, since IBM made it clear, that if you did not agree to the licenses of all the supplied software, you were free to return the laptop, which, of course, was not an option.)
I didn't get very far, though. Before it would boot (acutally, install Windows from a restore parition) the software wanted my to agree to two click-through EULAs, one from Microsoft and one from IBM. The funny part is that the license texts, which would have required tens of pages each if printed for sure, was displayed in two tiny text areas, only three text lines high. There was no option to save or print the licenses, and, if I call correctly, there was even some music playing in the background.
The point is, noone is intended to read these texts. I'm not sure what implications that has for the validity of this kind of licenses in various jurisdictions (IANAL etc), but the whole situation is just weird.
(Needless to say, I powered off the machine at that point and net-booted a Debian installer.)
Blog Ho
[i]Just how far will adware companies go to continue to attempt to bombard us with their ads?[/i]
I wouldn't know since the OS and platform I use doesn't have such a epidemic taking place.
FYI, I use Mac OS X but of course other choices exist that similarly have little issue of malware/adware existing and/or self installing.
Finally, a spyware program that will help me get rid of the rest of my spyware. Better to have 1 program transmitting your information than 10, right? Where can I download it?
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
This sounds a lot like the plot of the movie AVP.
"Whoever wins... we lose".
I can't remember having any problems with this kind of software. Just don't install it.
The Slashdot of pre 9/11 wouldn't have allowed a pro Windows hand wringing story like this. It would have have been repleat with solutions. Here's a solution: use Linux.
I think all the EULA's are out of control as to how much control and ownership these companies have over your PC and what right's we as owners of the PC should have reserved.
I keep hoping someday, someone, somewhere will really bring all these EULA's that we are all subjected to each and everytime we install something, under a microscope and start really questioning the legality of said EULA's.
Just my 2 cents...
Lawsuits or not, adware companies are starting to fight each other.
This will lower the status-quo - amount of adwares you get - while increasing the invasion of privacy - there will be less companies, less seperate databases.
Perhaps software companies whose users are complaining alot will uninstall malware when their product is installed (the EULA sais software XYZ is incompatible with ours and will be removed).
My other
They are scum of the earth bastards. If they could find a way to beam that ads directly into your brain 24/7 and then charge you for experiencing their "Intellectual Property", the would do it. That's how far.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
A better example of symbiotes in the body are the "friendly" bacteria we need to digest our food, a subset of which also keep Candida Albicans, the fungus that causes "yeast infections" and "oral thrush," in check.
One of these bacteria is e. Coli, which can actually be dangerous if it goes outside the boundaries of the colon. So actually not all of them are benign if they are out of their natural place.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
This is even happening today, you can down load "free" spyware removal software, that will be nice enough to remove all spayware on your pc, minus the spyware you install to use their spyware removal.
They will keep your machine "clean" for the price of a few ad's.
p.s. Yeah I dont have any links to backup this, do a search on downloads.com. I know their are some available there.
TruePunk | Games
Sounds perfectly legal to me. I'd be willing to bet Direct Revenue's EULA (you know, the one I'm sure everyone who installs their software reads before doing so) has a clause in it that says "Our software is allowed to delete competitor's software."
Since the user no doubt agreed to it, I see no problem here.
... when they went to that link from google that appeared to be completely different then the description shown, the pop-under ad clearly stated in an invisible html comment that if you do not agree with their EULA available at a seperate url then you should disconnect from their website before the software has finished installing on your computer because allowing the software to install implies acceptence of the terms of their contract.
(Yes, I'm a member of the punctuation conservation guild)
Wrapped up in a movie/TV/radio company. Not only will they criminalize zapping through their malware (advertising) they will make it illegal to refuse to buy the service at all. You can expect to have private ownership of computers, or at least private responsibility for what's on your computer to go away and be replaced by a government licence. Of course people will still be prosecuted for the content of their machines but someone's got to fill the prisons....
someone needs to write one, then we can really test the legality of this spyware "it's (hidden) in the EULA!" crap.
Avenue Media is claiming "tortious interference with contract" on the grounds that DirectMedia is interfering with their contractual relationships with their customers. This is in addition to their Computer Fraud and Abuse Act claim. The rationale, presumably, is that if they can show some kind of illegal act under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, their "tortious interference" claim might go somewhere.
Some anti-spyware group might want to file a friend-of-the-court brief. The best possible ruling would be that both parties are violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, and therefore DirectMedia cannot claim to come to court with clean hands.
whats ac?
that url causes bandwidth simply in your webbrowser with mere javascript and html. nothing to be installed there.
the original poster said, similar to the lycos screensaver but _without_ the hassle and much more effective.
It is amazing to me what people will put up with in the way of a stability or preformance hit before they'll seek professional help.
...however as soon as it is put into place Microsoft, IBM, SCO, Oracle, and others will join forces to lobby to have the law amended to wave the fee (or reduce it to a nickel) for contracts intended for mass redistribution.
And they will just keep re-proposing the bill until it passes.
IMO, the best way to overcome this plague is get Linux into government use (as well, of course, as public use). Then, once the decision-makers are fairly addicted to Linux, but discover that it can't deliver new features (due to patent law), they will realize the need to take a serious re-evaluation of how our country treats software in general.
just my thought.
This reminds me of a level on DOOM2 (perhaps level 14?) where there is a room *filled* with Demons. The only way to survive was to open the door, blast in a quick rocket and shut the door. All the Demons would slaughter each other until there was one left, and he was very weak by then.
It has been a long time since I finished that game (on a Nexgen 80 MHz!)
...yup...
Apparently (IANAL) there is a legal concept of "meeting of the minds" which renders a contract void if it is clear and obvious that one of the parties did not understand the contract at all.
A contract is an agreement, and an agreement only holds water if both sides actually agree, and in order to logically agree both sides must understand that to which they are agreeing. Or something like that.
There is also some concept of presiding law, or maybe it was inalienable rights....either way it boils down to contractual clauses which can be written, agreed upon, understood, and signed, but which can still NEVER be legally enforced. This is because certian specific protections cannot ever be signed away, no matter how badly you want to give them up. Though, in my own experience, this has only ever come up in renter's agreements for apartments and/or housing.
Pitting malware against malware has all the advantages of an interfamily mafia war, but without the annoying bloated corpses in the river.
i find this all so very funny.
it reminds me of a post last week about lyco's anti-spyware screensaver and yet they have their own spyware.
incidentally, no one answered my previous query as to whether lycos actually does author sidesearch.
Doesn't this kinda ring true of the old Terminate Stay Resident (TSR) keystoke wars of old? Granted, this was in the 8086 days, but applications like Sidekick would fight with any other program over an (Alt-something)keystroke for activation... to the point the competing programs were swapping out the address every 30 ms or so as they "patrolled" it.
As long as the advertisers themselves continue to support these companies, then these companies will exist.
What I find most amazing about this is that there are lawyers out there willing to stoop low enough as to represent both sides.
This comment was generated by a squadron of trained super elite albino ninja chickens for you.
... this turns out to be one of those "snake eating its tail" sort of things. They'll just litigate themselves out of existence by arguing that the other company doesn't have the right to modify software on the PC, etc., etc., etc. Anyone think it has that potential? I'm too busy at work to argue one way or another at the moment. Maybe the lawyers that "stooped" to that level will be astute enough to let it happen?
I think I am going to be sick......
Does anyone else see this as a good thing? We've spent so much time fighting malware, how can having malware fight itself hurt anything? This is the equivilent of contracting a manic depressive parasite with suicidal tendencies.
That's what I'd like to see.
It could be hosted on Sourceforge and a bunch of people could keep it honest there... no one to be "bought out" to exclude their company's malware. Just a simple EXE and a data file somewhere (local or on the net) that will just identify all known crap-ware and remove it with very little user activity.
If it's free and Open Source we should be able to trust it. If it were developed and maintained, I don't know who would sponsor the advertisement... after all, sources like download.com are probably spyware purveyors themselves. I guess it would take mention in some well-known publications along with some sort of agreement/deal with major ISPs. (But I'm DAMNED sure that ISPs would cooperate in spreading the tool since a huge portion of their support calls are dealing with malware complaints... it would save them a lot of labor cost.)
Who could write such a program? Couldn't be all THAT difficult -- I manually clean out malware at the office all of the time. Sometimes I have to go into a safe mode and run the registry editor to make it happen though... but basically, with malware, it's little more than stop the executable, delete the program and remove the registry entry. Some require a little more care than that, but the basics remain the same.
I think that this would be great. Just something that would look at everybody who'se catching keyboard and mouse events and if they are on a list of malware, break 'em at the event catcher.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
One spyware to bind them all...
Yeah, free Ipod! He is innocent!
Now we are confronted with the pathetic spectacle of spyware pushers fighting amongst themselves over which gets to infect a Windows system. Kind of like burglars fighting over who gets to leap in through the homeowner's open Window and get the jewelry. Just when we think that Window's reputation cannot possibly get any lower, it does, thanks to things like this.
Honestly I think malware is the consumer's fault. Seriously, if people didn't try to circumvent advertising with their pop-up blocker software and their Tivos, we wouldn't be in this spot. It's only natural that companies are going to have to find new venues for advertising. And honestly I don't find this stuff all that intrusive.
Wait hang on. Phone call. It's my mortgage company. Never mind, telemarketer. Okay as I was saying, I really don't think that advertising is as intrusive as people make it out to be. I mean is it that disruptive to take out a second of your day to... oooh e-mail. Hold on, something about my penis. This must be important... Hmm, guess not. Usually things about my penis are fairly important.
Okay where were we? Grr, hold on. Yes honey I checked the mail. No, just something from Citibank. It's not a bank statement. We don't even use Citibank, honey. Yeah you also got something about a free cell phone. Did we order a new cell phone? Well it says it's ready to be shipped. Why would I order a new cell phone and then ask you if you did? All I'm saying is that someone is sending us a cell phone. I'm not going to fight about this.
I'm back. Oh what now? What's this? A fax? I'm not familiar with this vacation company. No, throw it away. I don't care if it's only $99 to go to Disney, we're not going to Disney. All right, back to the topic on hand. I was watching this commercial on TV the other day and... ah forget it. Windows needs to be optimized. I better click on this. I mean it just popped up so it's gotta be important...
-- Don Carcharo
Plain and simple, I think spyware is one of the nasty parts of computing/the internet that should be illegal and carry heavy fines (which is how I feel about spam as well).
Since it's unlikely that governments will take time out of their busy lives trading and selling each other's votes on porkbarrel bills, I'd hope that they'd at least set some guiderules for it..
- The EULA should be required to be understandable by a user with a 6th grade reading comprehension level. No legalese.
- In the EULA, they must specify
a) Exactly what data is collected and how,
b) which domains/companies this data is sent to,
c) Anyone they share collected data with
d) Which servers/domains the spyware opens connections to.
e) A valid physical address of the company, to file claims or complaints.
- Spyware should not be allowed to change the user's homepage.
- Spyware should NOT be allowed to be bundled with another program, in such a way that installing the software automatically installs the spyware without giving the user an option.
- By default, spyware should be "unselected" during install if bundled with another application.
- Spyware companies should be required to be bonded, and should be required to have enough cash on hand/on deposit to pay for any violations of the rules
- There should be a HUGE fine if removing the spyware destroys any part of network connectivity. There have been SO MANY times that removing spyware on a client's machine has completely destroyed IE's ability to browse, or destroyed the TCP/IP stack itself. I can't tell you how many times TCPFix has saved the day..
Anyway, for those of you who've had AdAware partially remove spyware (and thus bork the machine), or for those spyware programs that do a great job of destroying networking while they uninstall themselves, the following utilities are extremely useful.
TCP Fix: Win9x or if the TCP fix doesn't solve it, sometime's it's a LSP issue: LSP Fix. One of those two has never failed to restore a broken network connection after cleaning up spyware. It's useful to have them in your tech toolkit cd... -J
I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume from nine to eleven...
"OK, I move that we commit all advertisers to institutions for the criminally insane, right now."
I contend that advertisers engage in their trade willfully in full knowledge of the result of their actions, thus they do not deserve the protection afforded to the mentally ill.
Further, I believe it is an insult to the criminally insane to be compared to scum like advertisers, and they're probably the last demographic group you want to insult...
Oops. I forgot the link to the Windows XP version of "TCP Fix" (from the parent comment): XP TCP Fix
I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume from nine to eleven...
It's called Business Law and the Uniform Commercial Code (each state has their own).
Laws are already on the books that cover what a "purchase" is and general responsibilities. The problem comes with interpreting the law -- and that's where we are now.
Nobody has ever challenged an EULA and customers have not demanded that companies remove them as a condition of purchase. So, we keep plugging along like a bunch of lemmings...
I could make my spyware uninstall Windows
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
an ad-infested world where there were ads on every available surface
Must be talkking about the Olympics.. Either that or an average NASCAR race..
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
"There are entire cities that depend on telemarketing jobs to survive."
He should double watch it. One of those telemarketers could be a former IT coworker. Fast food can't hold everyone.
I believe in this case the EULA did in fact state that other adware apps may be deleted as part of the install process.
Avenue Media should be just as pissed off at AdAware, SpyBot Search & Destroy, etc etc and be suing them too shouldn't they? They can't because they don't have a case for that. They're being jealous idiots is all. DirectRevenue (who suck anyway since they practice something like 'gatoring') claims to state in their user license up front that they may be removing competitor's software if it's found. So, they are claiming to remove certain adware. There are high-profile programs like the ones I've mentioned, whose sole mission is to do just that (and they make money doing it too!), and I haven't heard of them getting sued lately. Both companies need to be smacked about with 40-pound salmons.
lawsuit against DirectRevenue stating that DirectRevenue 'knowingly and with intent to defraud, exceeded its authorized access to users' computers.'
They've ALL been doing that for YEARS. Do they REALLY want to open up THAT can of worms?
Adware? Malware? Viruses? Oh... those things Windows users get!
Sorry, I had to say it: switch to OS X or Linux or, well, ANYTHING else!
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
This is nothing new. Back in '98, Microsoft was caught doing the same thing to Real Network's software. More recently, Kodak found its digital camera software pushed aside by Microsoft's offering. These adware guys learned from the master -- the name of this game is arrogance.
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
A malware writer and a lawyer are drowning in a lake. You only have one rope - who do you throw the anchor to?
Pretty soon they'll get wise and start deleting Ad-aware (and list it on their EULA so you can't bitch about it)
Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
One end to the malware writer, one end to the lawyer.
Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
All your malware are belong to...uh...your malware?
It would have to be given a cool name, like "Malware Hunter Zero."
Yeah, the GPL is totally out of control :P
<ducks for cover>
of my foul attempt to rob a particular house with some friends. So I broke in only to found out that one of the "so called" friends had gone in in advance and left nothing for us but the furniture.
I have never had an idea to arrange a legal action against him, not until now.
Now, where's my lawyer's phone number?
Guess what? That someone is you. In a very real sense, every time you agree to a EULA by clicking that button, you are establishing a contract. This has been tried in court and supported. If you're in the USA, unless you happen to be in Louisana, you're covered under the Uniform Commercial Code. You gain a benefit (software), the other person gains a benefit (advertises to you), there's a written statement to the terms (EULA), and both parties agree. Hell, it's a contract.
There's a problem here, yes, and that problem is you. Read your EULAs and refuse to install software whose EULA you disagree with. Refuse to install software whose EULA is too long for you to read. Another poster joked about the length of the GPL. I wouldn't joke. If those terms are put before you and you must accept them before you can use the software, you are bound by that contract. Have you honestly read the GPL? Any EULA?
No? Fine. But ignorance does not remove your contractual obligation.
You like splinters in your crotch? -Jon Caldara
Someone mod the parent up please. a Symbiotic relationship encompasses many different relationships including parasitism. It is the term used define a close ecological relationship between different species whether beneficial or not.