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MSN Search - From A UI Perspective
An anonymous reader writes "The user interface community has also started poking and prodding away at the latest iteration of MSN search and has discovered some interesting findings including: XHTML strict, CSS for layout and the death of IE 5 support. You can also read first-hand MSN designer insight into the design process as well."
So it won't render correctly in IE, then?
They are saying We still have some validation errors (about 130, the last time i checked) in the W3C Validator for God's sake. Then you say they are XHTML strict. Right.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
and the layout is fine on either browser.
If it's all standards compliant, why do I keep having problems with the style sheets? (In both Firefox and Safari, the page displays completely without styles.)
Great to see that even Microsoft 'admits' that IE 5 is non-standard on many things by dropping support for it on MSN search... trust me, building a layout compatible with IE 5, IE 6 and mozilla is a true nightmare. If at least they could patch the bad implementation of the box model...
If every webmaster would stop implementing fixes and hacks to support non-standard browsers, I think IE would lose quite a marketshare to Firefox... end users don't see the problem (IE render every page fine! Firefox don't in some situations!) because webmasters optimize for IE (it IS 95% of the market, you know). Vicious circle...
Eureka Science News - automatically updated
It may be WELL-FORMED XHTML, but it introduces a proprietary attribute (so... Microsoft).
Respect for web standards... yeah right. IMO they just did an optimization of their design... and certainly they did NOT have in mind any consideration for web standards. They nerver had.
With any luck this also implies that the next release of Frontpage won't create pages in a magical mystical microsoft invented language similar, but importantly different from HTML or XHTML...
You can also read first-hand MSN designer insight into the design process as well.
Not that I expect anything even close to an objective review of that process from Slashdot readers.
I expect a great deal of criticism that is well-written but doesn't actually have much substance.
...compliant
XHTML strict
If they can be strict with this standard, that can only mean they have pre-emptively co-opted it! They have embraced and extended it before anyone else had a chance to simply follow it. They must have bribed the committees. This has to have been an inside job.
This cannot be allowed to stand. We must stand up and fight for our rights to unpoluted standards. It is time to find a new standard.
Infuriate left and right
...its gone from about 130 errors when it was first released, to eight errors now. Not bad. Not bad at all.
From TFA: Some of you may be interested to know that folks from the MSN team have definitely seen this page, and are aware of the feedback, compliments, and criticism
Yep, they did a search in their own search engine for "Miscrosoft Criticism" and found this website.
Who cares about the UI? How good are the searches?
love is just extroverted narcissism
"Shit man, even the Mona Lisa is falling apart."
- Tyler Durden, Fight Club
scott king
Has nothing about this company's past and recent history meant anything to us? Do you really think they intend to play fair? Do you really feel you will be able to trust their search results no matter what promises they make? Maybe you do, but I can't imagine ever trusting Microsoft for anything. Live and learn, eh?
From the weblog:
All we ask for is for people to look at the page as a work in progress. I have seen some feedback that we should not have declared the doctype as XHTML Strict. If anything, we are closer to HTML 4.01. I agree. But our target is to get to XHTML strict. We realize we are not at a point where we can say we have achieved our goal. We will be working hard to get to that goal. Let us know how we are doing. Where are we slipping up? What do we need to fix? We are listening.
But I suppose giving actual feedback would be too much to ask.
The coolest voice ever.
Tried the search page.
Results *seem* xhtml strict (didn't validate tho), but something awful:
It renders wrong in Firefox. The pulldown menu overflows the border (font too big), i have to press ctrl - twice to fix it.
Also, the "next" button is on the rightmost corner of the webpage. I have to scroll sideways (unless i'm running my browser in fullscreen) and the results are in an incredibly huge font.
I guess the designers should have tried other configurations before releasing the thing. Oh well.
How the design principles used on a web page that is basically a textbox and a submit button is news is beyond me.
I'm a big tall mofo.
Look through the imported style sheet on the home page, and you'll see several uses of @media handheld {} to target certain rules for handheld devices.
Hey, that's good practise. The intent is for the one page to render appropriately for multiple device types. The web needs more implementations of this to make mobile browsing viable.
According to the Wayback machine, file size doesn't seemed to have changed (or reduced) that much. This old version from July 2004 is actually smaller (33.95kb) than the current one which is 40.55kb. Note that this is from Firefox's "View Page Info" which does not take the total size of the images, etc into account (I think).
But then there are several factors other than raw filesize leading to slower load times.
It's nice to see webpage developers at Microsoft aware of standards, and trying to adhere to them. From this comment:
At 6:29pm on 1 Feb 2005, Venkat Narayanan wrote:
Guys,
I work on the MSN.com Homepage team. Thanks for all of this feedback.
We know that there are still some validation errors. There are still some accessibility issues. We will be working to fix those issues as soon as possible. Please let us know what you think.
I think it only needs standards awareness from a few of the low-level developers to bring about a change. Even if the high level management/QA may not know or care about standards, a developer could make the work standards friendly without foregoing any of the performance/features. It would help, though to have management promote standards awareness, and devote resources to make sure they're complied with. Good for Microsoft if they're doing this. On the other hand, it may only be these few standards aware developers trying to do the right job.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
Then you would see that they know it was not XHTML compliant yet, but was a work in progress getting there.
Jumping on the bandwagon and saying "XHTML Strict my Arse" would warrant the reply RTFA
Right on.
I have seen some feedback that we should not have declared the doctype as XHTML Strict. If anything, we are closer to HTML 4.01. I agree. But our target is to get to XHTML strict. We realize we are not at a point where we can say we have achieved our goal. We will be working hard to get to that goal. Let us know how we are doing. Where are we slipping up? What do we need to fix? We are listening.
But you know, God forbid that any self-respecting Slashdotter actually registers anything that gets in the way of their ceaseless, unproductive Microsoft-bashing. Like, say, the facts. It's a work in progess, people. They even openly ask you for information on how to improve. Who has time to do that though? Let's all just sit back and bitch.
We were curoius how broken it would be in IE 5. In IE5.5 everything was mostly ok. In IE 5 it hard crashes IE. I dont know if I've ever seen anything quite so beautiful as that browser going down in flames on its own homepage.
Although the page is using a proper DOCTYPE declaration and is rendering in standards compliance mode in FireFox, a quick trip to validator.w3.org reveals a lot of small details that could still be fixed. :P
Still a far cry ahead of Slashdot's god awful HTML output, but still leaves something to be desired...
Pretty heavy on the javascript usage, and misc clutter as well.
On the other hand, it may only be these few standards aware developers trying to do the right job.
I doubt it. Microsoft is one of the most coordinated operations around. They do their best efforts to time the development and release of everything - hell, optimally they want to release the next version of Office with Longhorn. The point is that, at Microsoft, the left hand almost always knows what the right hand is doing and there are very few communication blocks between management and developers (anyone that's worked at Microsoft in recent years can verify this, and anyone that says the contrary is true is an utter liar). Do you honestly think that the issue of standards compliance regarding their main web portal has gone unnoticed except by a few developers? Think again!
users do. duh.
Okay... so supposedly nobody fears MSN Search.
Everybody says Google still kicks full-on ass.
Etc. etc. etc.
So why is it that in the past 2 days alone there have been -3- articles on MSN Search on Slashdot ?
MSN Search has arrived - actually, it was there a long time ago. It was simply finally put into place on the msn.com portal. I'm sure that was big news to all the Slashdot users who have msn.com as their homepage *smirk*
Inspecting MSN Search - comparing image search, specifically. Using 'Britney Spears'. Gar, what inspection. Do something really interesting and post a website with text and images on a rather specific thing at various locations. Don't announce this. Now check which engine adds which website and its images, and when. Then compare them, and publish THOSE results. That just might be interesting.
MSN Search - From A UI Perspective - So from a UI perspective they've found it uses XHTML (to some extent) ? Wow. Next time I'll evaluate a user interface, I'll be sure to note that it uses COMCTL32 and COMDLG32 instructions. ffs. This says nothing about the actual UI. Which, by the way, is quite sleek - imho. Bit more form over function than Google's, but still pretty light-weight. (Again, this is search.msn.com , not the msn.com portal.) I suspect the title here is chosen wrongly - it's more of a "internet standards compliance and device support inspection".
Could Slashdot editors *please* just hold off the MSN Search articles until something actually interesting about it comes up ?
Sceptic mode: Or perhaps do they post this simply to allow some more Microsoft- / MSN Search-bashing posts in the comments ?
No one cares. It's from Microsoft, and thus cannot be trusted.
Why? Because they're a gigantic company out to preserve their position in the business world? Show me one corporation whose goal isn't the same damned thing, and you'll be showing me empty space. Yeah, yeah, COMPANIES = EVIL. Better go ditch your car and clothes then.
Do a search for "Linux," for crying out loud, and take a gander at the first thing that shows up for display: Right, a sponsored link from Microsoft that lies about Linux.
You misleading little troll. The first real search result leads to www.linux.org. Sure there are sponsored links at the top, but they're clearly labeled as such and are separated from everything else. If you want to bitch about the mere presence of sponsored links, go right ahead. They're a com-pa-ny.
I can't imagine ever trusting Microsoft for anything. Live and learn, eh?
My company trusts Microsoft with ensuring the smooth sailing of the electronic portion of our business operations. No catastrophes since the company was founded in '96. We're living and learning.
hmmm.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
The search is fast, the results are good, and the layout is clean(er). Maybe they are beginning to get it. Competition works.
the death of IE 5 support
I can't get to TFA at the moment to see if this is mentioned, but I did look at the stylesheet for the main page and found that they're using Tantek Celik's IE5 box model hack.
Does that count as "eating your own dog food"?
Why use an Extensible HyperText Markup Language if you can't extend it?
And the first thing you see is a sponsored report about how microsoft server is better than linux. On the plus side, the search results no longer include "migrate from linux to windows" as the standard number three result.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
did mike get fired or what?
i haven't been paying attention for a couple days.
Tell me - why do you think they are lying. Yes, their operating system is insecure. Yes, it's slow and buggy and difficult to administrate as hell. Yes, they don't adhere to standards and change their supported features often.
But how is this different from Linux?
(and BSD is NOT linux.)
its not like you can explain to a client that your page is the one that's complient and IE is wrong
Does the page break in IE 5? I can't check from this computer. If it does, it'll be much easier now, since we can show them that even Microsoft's own MSN.com no longer supports outdated browsers. If Microsoft does it, the people will follow.
Eh.
why did i waste my last point modding up the homoerotic first post when i could have smacked your stupid ass down?
I go away for a few days, and all hell breaks loose.
Can't find any info on any of the media outlets; someone in the know, share!
Yes, it's slow and buggy and difficult to administrate as hell.
Difficult to administrate? I have never had an easier time administering a server than I have had with Windows Server 2003. Lots of people here seem to forget that that product exists. It is far, far easier to use than any UNIX or Linux server software I have encountered.
Well, interestingly my search for circumspect elephantitis displays exactly one result - the same number as the same search on Google!.
But the REALLY interesting thing about this is that the results are different - how about THAT for a Moogle Whack?!
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
Prediction 1:
Microsoft Desktop Search and MSN Search are seamlessly combined and are available on the taskbar at all times.
Prediction 2:
The Google lawsuit against bundling and for inclusion of Google Desktop Search / Web Search with Longhorn is already in the works. (Same will apply for GMail vs. Longhorn bundled Desktop-Hotmail access).
The media-player lawsuit was nothing compared to this one...
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
They let us take back the browser market in exchange they will attempt to control the internet itself.
If you can't control the program that accesses the information, control the access to the information.
-Don.
Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
I was hoping for a friendly 3D animated Clippy to help me decide where i want to go today!
How much useful information can we expect to get from the page when the posts are being moderated before they are posted? I mean, I understand the potential for screaming, flaming fireballs calling MS everything but the Anti-Christ, but come on, I'd like to see the posts that don't approve of the changes as well. That would probably include mine.
Um.... why is everyone whining that Microsoft has 8 xhtml errors? Go try and validate Google's page.
Microsoft is influential. Microsoft is powerful. Microsoft dictates certain areas of computing. As much as some tunnel-visioned, disconnected-from-reality /.-ers might not like to admit it, this is reality. The result of this reality is that when Microsoft speaks, or acts, the world listens. They listen a lot. How many news articles were there about Bill Gates at CES?
MSN Search is Microsoft's direct challenge to Google. Microsoft doesn't take on a fight unless it thinks it has a good chance of winning or at least establishing a significant, permanent presence. Google is so de-facto that it has become a verb. Therefore, MSN Search and what it holds in store for Web users everywhere is big, big, big news.
It work on konqueror too... cool!!! :P
Of course they are. But what company wouldn't solicit as much customer feedback as possible? DUH.
Somebody else must have been thinking as I did in time: Try the Coral Cache of the Stopdesign site. (I usually try that, but I'm already too late; you can't cache a site that can't respond to the cacher, either.)
(Karma whoring accusers: Look at the UID. Statistically speaking, it is likely I've been capped since before you had an account.)
Google vs. MSN Search
Round One!
Fight!
Google Validation: 44 Errors
MSN Search Validation: 1 Error
Google Wins! Eh...
Um... I didn't do it!
have a lot in common. Microsoft is personally responsible for millions of infected PCs, due to their irresponsible security practices, and the pope is personally responsible for millions of people contracting HIV, due to his influence in opposing sex education and condom distribution.
JUST TELL US WTF HAPPENED TO MICHAEL?
If you don't know, then sod off.
are just an idiot, and your counter arguement is as weak as the OP.
One good thing to come out of the nightmare of malware is that more people will be upgrading their browsers to the latest versions. Supporting ugly old browser versions won't be as necessary.
This is just a flame, please read with a happy face...
SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT MSN SEARCH!!!
I'm posting it here because it's the first comment that is rendered with my settings. I've set my browser's (Firefox, duh) homepage to Slashdot two days ago for kicks.
For the past two days when I start my browser (10+ times per hour, for 8+ hours a day easy, seriously) it seems that I'm reading about some inane aspect of a search engine that I will never use. I've just checked my Firefox search box, there isn't even an MSN option.
Please... we don't care. In two weeks they will say that they got over a billion hits and performed billions of searches - however most of the traffic is coming from this shameless promotion.
We hate Microsoft right?
Stop posting this rubbish!
Get your Unix fortune now!
Works for me!
Astroturf.
Or, if you prefer, Slashvertisemnet.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They should advertise more of the special features. http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=calories+appl e&FORM=QBRE
Obviously MS is not ready to drop support for IE5/Win, which is still an unfortunately major browser--certainly well above Firefox in marketshare if you lump 5.0 and 5.5 together. Rather they have dropped support for IE5/Mac, which is still somewhat surprising considering it is the "current" version of their Mac browser (unless you count an upgrade for MSN customers only).
Incidentally, the site renders fine in Safari except for a somewhat ridiculous looking problem where the search button runs smack into Safari's OS X native widgets.
Microsoft PR has really overrun /. I can smell the fresh mowed astroturf...
Eh, I did a view source on Google and saw TABLE tags.
Philosophistry
Granted, they most likely did not want it to work correctly, but the drop down box is higher than the rest of the items. Anyone else get the same?
The single most important aspect of any search engine, for me, is that my own site (Lockjaw's Lair) show up in it. It should be at or near the top of a specific search, since the title of the site consists of an odd pairing of words, or at least show up.
So, I did a search for my site on MSN Search to see how I fared. It doesn't bode well for a search site that I can find links to my site on other sites, but the search engine hasn't followed the links to my site. One would think that their spider would have been following these links, especially as there are more than a few of them, but I haven't found evidence that it has done so.
I understand that the new MSN search aims to rival Google in completeness of its database. I hope that my own experience isn't indicative of a major lack of completeness or a substandard spidering tool.
I don't expect an instant complete spidering of my whole site. It would be nice if the spider would just follow one of the links and look at my front page.
Visit Lockjaw's Lair. He won't bite.
if you have asked MSIE to ignore font sizes on pages. CSS what killed readablity.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
... because I have a G3 Power PC with OS 9 and that seems to be the only useable (and free) browser I can find. The MSN home page is definately messed up on my browser when I visited it, with words overlapping and boxes pushed off the the far, far right. It's annoying, but I run into this frequently with pages using CSS.
PS. If anyone knows of a good browser substitute for Mac IE5.1 on OS 9, I'd be thrilled to hear about it.
Sig cancelled due to lack of interest
This is indeed a pretty cool feature on a search engine. I wonder when Google will add this calculator to its site.
It's retardedly easy to create standards compliant HTML. Why is it that hard for MSN to create a page with a pretty simple layout that renders well in all browsers and is standards compliant? It seems that web design is full of charlatans...
Microsoft has now purchased all rights to HTML/XHTML and effectively redefined the words "standards compliance."
Warning: Could be fatal if taken seriously
I suppose since it's xhtml you can define your own things (like xml?), but if the validator doesn't understand that you're defining your own things then that could be it. IANAWD (web designer)
For context, click Parent.
They obviously won't be using valid (and correctly-served) XHTML 1.1, since IE refuses to even render application/xhtml+xml documents as XHTML.
And judging by previous comments, they're not even bothering with XHTML 1.0, either. And writing invalid XHTML 1.0 is much worse than writing invalid HTML, since XHTML is XML and should thus die horribly if there's a single error.
Out of curiosity, why does Microsoft find it so hard to write valid XHTML when everyone else finds it so easy? And in general... why the FUCK don't full-time web developers write valid XHTML? AARGH!
The whole point of XHTML compliant documents is so that the data can be parsed by a non-HTML user agent without issue, as regular XML. This lets you do nice things like XSLT transforms on the HTML, XPath data queries, etc. It is not to make things nicer in the browser, it is not to make things faster, and in fact, both Mozilla and IE can render XHTML compliant pages SLOWER under certain circumstances, because of the validation procedures involved in the parsing.
Using JavaScript to fancy up a page has absolutely no effect on this. Unless the website is actually placing useable data on the page via JavaScript (**ahem**), then the JavaScript has ZERO impact on either the compliance level or the utility of XHTML. And from what I can see, this is exactly what MSN Search (and what most websites) are dong - using JavaScript to write fancy navigation and whatnot, none of which is really useful to a non-HTML user agent.
From the article: "I have seen some feedback that we should not have declared the doctype as XHTML Strict. If anything, we are closer to HTML 4.01. I agree. But our target is to get to XHTML strict."
And what is a doctype? That's correct: the type of the document. So if the document is really more like HTML 4.01, it should be labeled HTML 4.01. It should not be labeled with some marketing 'we'd really like this to work' drivel. Sort of a micrososm of the Microsoft Approach, actually. Lying to people fits under marketing - we're used to it and can take it into account. Lying to computers, computers which are trying to make your not-really-HTML into something presentable, is just stupid.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
Well, let's not argue about personal tastes. I have no intention to switch from Google until something far more important than user interface comes up. Please, wake me up when MSN search starts using more advanced search algorithms.
What I want in a search site is more intelligence than the plain old statistics they use today. What about image recognition from descriptions? I want to type "image of nude blond girl with big tits" and have the search engine look over the pictures in its cache and interpret the content of the images to find what I requested.
And I want text interpretation as well. When I type "BFR480 curves", I want to find sites that have the BFR480 transistor's technical data, even if the word "curves" appears nowhere in the site. I don't need to use the word "transistor" in the search because any self-respecting search engine should know that a part number starting with "BF" is a silicon low-power high-frequency transistor made by some European company.
Yes, I know, those things are *very* hard to do with current technology. But if anyone could do it, it would be the gadzillion computer clusters they have at Google and Microsoft. Therefore, until significant progress is done in raising the intelligence of search engines, any article about search sites is hardly "stuff that matters".
.. is on their feedback page.
Optional: if you were not able to find a web page, enter its address or URL here.
Er... if I could not find the page, how the he** would I know it's URL?
Sorry, can't view your PNG image...I'm using Internet Explorer.
heh, heh.
No Klingon, Esperanto or Pig Latin????
MSN Search, I've got two words: No thanks!
Because these articles generate discussion, and therefore page hits. Which is good for OSTG's ad clients who display banner ads up top.
I saw him, as it happens, *today*. I was just reinstalling some stuff on my computer, one of which was Microsoft Office 2k; clipps is there by default! Yes, some of us still use that 4 year old piece of software, not seeing any real point in wasting more more money when Office 2k is perfectly good for our needs. What does Office XP add, anyway? Other than a slightly different UI?
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Um.... why is everyone whining that Microsoft has 8 xhtml errors? Go try and validate Google's page.
1) Source of Google:
<html><head>...
Google does not purport to use XHTML of any sort.
God forbid I should say anything good about microsoft, but playing around on the MyMSN page shows some really awesome customization features.
It works a lot better in IE, but it still mostly works in firefox. (Well, there seem to be a lot of crashes and errors, but i guess it is still new).
Being able to hide, drag the various components around, add rss feeds, etc, is slick. i know it's nothing totally new, but it's really a nice design and i think pushes the boundries.
I added the slashdot RSS feed and now i can read the top slashdot stories on my MSN home page. oh the irony!
TODO: come up with a clever sig
On the whole, I've been happy with the MSN search. Mostly because my sites rank there when the dont rank in Google.
However, as far as the UI goes... why is the search text-box so friggin small? It's 20 characters wide. Google's is 50 characters wide. search.yahoo.com has space for 60 characters.
If I want to paste a long search string in the box, with MSN, I can't even see the whole thing. Why is MSN search being so miserly with the text box size?
SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
As a web professional, I wish to see the day that IE5 would just go away. It's failure to be web standards is already the stuff legends are made of.
Need a color? Try 100 random colors
These two searches reveal why google is better: windows is better than linux
linux is better than windows
They take context into consideration: windows is better than linux
linux is better than windows
Oh and did I mention Google is, uh, mildly, less biased.
Use bittorrent, and get the porn from mufftorrent.com.
Mod me Informative you bastards. You know you want to.
Fucking Bushbot
Guys,
...so why did they ask for feedback, before fixing those?
I work on the MSN.com Homepage team. Thanks for all of this feedback. We know that there are still some validation errors. There are still some accessibility issues. We will be working to fix those issues as soon as possible. Please let us know what you think.
As Joel says
"It is crucial to get to zero known bugs (what Netscape famously called "Zarro Boogs") before releasing a beta. If you don't, you'll waste a lot of time during the beta reading 200 emails about a bug that you already knew about."
Something tells me the MSN guys are going to get more than 200 messages about validation issues, and almost none about things they care about.
Yes, I know, I hate to admit this, but I actually saw him today on my brand spankin' new HP with Windows XP Professional and Office 2002. In the middle of working on an Excel spreadsheet and doing a cut and paste, guess who popped up with that stupid, annoying and unhelpful word balloon? Yup, it was good ol' Clippy.
So yes, he's still there and still on by default.
I'm bonch and I'm a troll
Yes, but MSN actually warns you not to use IE: http://tech.msn.com/howto/article_203-2.armx
Check the 14th parargaph, where it gives an external link to download Firefox. I just about pissed my pants.
"Stop using Internet Explorer. Microsoft's Web browser is a hog. Switching to the Mozilla Firefox or Opera browser can yield swifter program launches, faster page loads, and an all-around smoother ride. In my personal experience, Firefox has proven the fleetest browser..."
Matthew Brundage
Silver Spring, MD