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The Truth About Linux and Windows
petrus4 writes "Groklaw has an update on the Laura DiDio saga. Apparently, her complaints about "Linux extremists" notwithstanding, cooler heads than the usual suspects are asking questions about her research. A very interesting read, and one which will hopefully encourage corporate readers to regard the Yankee Group's findings with the requisite metric ton of salt in the future."
They even subscribe to some Enderle research because they see him "well connected" to important companies like microsoft.
I can't understand how being a paid shill _incresease_ their credibility with management; but somehow it does. MBA's. go figure.
This is a really confusing article. Mostly because of the quotes of quotes, and the use of lots of pronouns. I have trouble keeping track of it all. That said, I appreciate civilised discourse, and having said THAT, DiDio nor certain Linux fanatics seem to be all that snuggly towards discussing things rationally.
Take off every sig. For great justice.
This should settle all these arguments going around once and for all.
The truth of the matter is that you should choose the operating system that suits your needs. If you want an inexpensive machine for Computer Science studies or to learn UNIX networking or even as a SOHO server for the advanced user, Linux is your game. Similarly, for gaming, business applications, enterprise servers or streaming media from your computer to your TV you won't go wrong with Windows.
But to get caught up in "OS 1 is better than OS 2" debates is pure silliness, especially when you can run both easily.
I never vote for anyone. I always vote against.
-- W.C. Fields
If I've learnt anything during my life, it is that you should just ignore anyone who claims to know the truth about something.
1. Linux still isn't ready for prime time zero hassle common user usage. Install Knoppix from the live cd at 800x600 and oops, now you gotta go to change the config as root to explicitly tell it your card can do 1024x768 because the installer sets as maximum whatever you were using the live cd at. Fedora's installer tries to relax you regarding Grub, but most of the time forcing LBA32 is needed or it sits there doing nothing at boot. Etc. Small potatoes for techs being paid to support it and used to all sorts of crockery, but not for casual users who shouldn't have to read inaccessible man pages because you can't even boot one machine during install.
2. Linux is being adopted and the rise in compromised roots is testament to this. I salute the geniuses who've sold Linux without regard to education of the average business user on security.
3. Windows will not be killed. Not going to happen. We will have competition indefinitely. And this is a good good thing.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Both companies are American, right? Profit!
We all dance, we all sing.
-The Streets
Why does Truth, Linux and Windows in the same sentence seems so awfully wrong to me?
A computer makes it possible to do, in half an hour, tasks which were completely unnecessary to do before.
you're so funny.
No - everything is not relative. To say "everything is relative, even this statement" would suggest that for some people the statement isn't relative, which would mean that for some people truth isn't relative. Truth exists outside your perceptions, Dewey-wannabe. "Realitity is as you experience it to be?" No. Reality is that stuff that continues even when you choose to ignore it.
Saying "for some things, MS Windows is better. For other things, Linux is better" doesn't mean it's relative, it merely means the statement is vague. There are explicit things that Linux is better for. There are explicit things MS Windows is better for.
"Everything is relative?" So, a rock is only a rock when I percieve it to be one? No, if it's a rock it continues to be a rock until something changes that state. If it is not a rock, then it continues not being a rock until something changes that state. Merely wishing it one way or the other doesn't make it so.
And in other news... Corporations don't care about you! *gasp*
The more i read that name the more my mind begins to replace Didio with Dildo.
And the more i read what Dildio has to say the more i think my dyslexia is right
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Since almost all wireless routers and firewalls (and many other embedded devices including digital projectors and printers) out there are already running Linux, and the vendors of these devices usually don't bother to point out to the customer what OS is it using, I'd say that many small business are already using Linux and don't even know it!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I did a straw poll among work colleagues and they all had windows XP installed. Why? Because it was the same price as Linux (i,e, they either got it off some thai market stall, or they paid for it with with the system and they had no choice -e.g. Dell)
If dodgy Microsoft volume license copies of XP weren't doing the rounds so much, then many home users would much rather use/try a free OS (Linux) than pay a hundred pounds for each incarnation of Microsoft Windows.
We will have competition indefinitely. And this is a good good thing Oh I definitely agree, competition is good. But I also don't agree that open source software necessarily needs competition (at all) to improve. If a user wants a new feature or a bug fixed, then it actually happens, even without a competing product including that feature. That's the genius of open source. Not to mention that anyone can fork a project at any time if they don't like how it's going (although this isn't always true for what I consider shared-source projects, like under the CDDL). With Windows, if you don't like it, you have no choice except to not use Windows. With Linux, you do have a choice, and THAT is the fundamental difference.
Take off every sig. For great justice.
We will have competition indefinitely. And this is a good good thing.
/.er embrace economics. It's like hearing a Mac zealot say that 2 mouse buttons are better than one.
It's so nice to see a
"No beer until you finish your tequila!" -Leela's Dad
2. the exact same situation exists with Windows, billions of dollars of damage has been done by worms, trojans, viruses, etc. in the last four years due to failure to keep current with Windows patches to known problems
3. What happens when the expanding markets of India and China grow a new customer base that is bigger than all existing computer users at present, and they choose not to use Windows in those systems?
Haha! The term "Linux-extremist" is redundant. The very definition of a "Linux-user" already contains the connotation of "extremist," inasmuch as all the users are zealous users and defenders of Linux. I have never met a lukewarm Linux user.
Well, think of it like this: we stepped outside, noticed the house was on fire, and we're trying to tell you to get the fuck out of there while you still can. Yes, I'd say we're a pretty zealous lot.
Ahhh Haa! But I ignore your post, and therefor it does not exist!
This sig has been removed pending an investigation.
... that this is a pissing contest, and it has nothing to do with the real issue. The core issue is that Linux is compatable with the information age, because it treats the unrestricted ability to copy and manipulate itself over the internet like a benefit. Windows is not, becuase it trys to treat information like "intellectual property" and sees the unrestricted ability to copy and manipulate information over the internet as a threat and "piracy". They (MS) have simply held themselves accountable to a paradigm that has no place in the information age, and they're trying to shift the argument to issues like "tco", and "features", and "hidded costs" to avoid it. In the long term, this is all totally irrelavent as to who wins. It doesn't matter what's Linux's flaws are - they will be remedied by market forces sooner or later.
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re:screen resolution in X--I'd recommend using a tool like Xconfigurator when possible. Yes, it'd be nice if this were more integrated into more Linux distributions.
Gotta say I vote for Linux in that department almost every time.
uh, I think you'd be better off asking GP that. He's claiming the rock only exists because he says so. I'm claiming it's a rock because it's a rock.
[quote]So, a rock is only a rock when I percieve it to be one? No, if it's a rock it continues to be a rock until something changes that state. If it is not a rock, then it continues not being a rock until something changes that state.[/quote]
A rock is a rock unless it's being used as a hammer, in which case it's a hammer, but comparing a rock to a real hammer will show the hammer to be vastly supirior at hammering. Comparing the rock to a pillow will show the rock to be vastly supirior at hammering.
It's all relative.
-Rick
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Odd that , as for me knoppix has always auto discoverd most of the monitors i used it on and thats alot of workstations. and if you want easy install , try ubuntu. ;) same situation with low reseloution.
Plus try the same thing with windows if you dont have a graphics driver at hand
The ammount of compromised roots ? got any fiqures to back that up
Last but not least , We don't(most of us) want to destroy windows , we want options (personaly i dont use windows at-all and im glad i can do that thanks to the work of the Wine team and contributers) and we want the ability to choose what we run and on what system we run it , so the only thing we want to do is destroy windows monopoly and force a fairer market.
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
For many of us, there is no need to deploy a Linux server to know whether or not it's cheaper. All of our Windows support is done in house. Just to get a Linux box up and working would require hiring an outside consultant, which right there, adds a massive cost. It's like saying that a person who says that they can't afford a Ferrari is irrelevant since they've never bought one.
I don't respond to AC's.
I built a small office server for a company.
Spare Dell 400 mhz - 50$
mandrake -$
mysql - $
The office unknown to me had bought this very expensive win 2004 dell server (there network/computer consulting co told them they needed it to host my appliation). It was over 2000$. They didn't need it and the company couldn't install apache/mysql/php (Who do I call for support?).
I installed the linux and everything in about 4 hours. Linux installs have gotten much much better. Scary easy.
Basically the linux server has been chugging away for over a year with no problems. hardly maintenance. Nothing (Its behind a firewall). The windows server has had all sorts of networking issuse that keeps a tech visiting the office once a week.(granted its doing more but still).
Which is cheaper again???
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There will always be battles between Linux and Windows.
This whole battle is absurd. Why has it all become so convoluted? Cost of deployment / migration: it is this simple -- if you have a pre-existing IT staff that is trained exclusively in windows, windows will be cheaper. If you have an IT staff educated in linux, it will be MUCH cheaper. This goes with TCO, etc. When it comes to stability, security, management, operation, these things will all be relative -- once again, to the competence of your IT staff (how and why they use what the use, how everything is implemented, etc.). Don't listen to anybody who says windows security holes are directly variable to linux security holes if they are just looking at them by numbers. Yea, linux has security holes (every OS does), but windows has HUGE security holes that are open invitations to destruction that are patched... eventually. The OSS community is pretty damn good at patching even the obscure holes pretty darn quick - and being honest about it. M$ will always be willing to strong-arm you into using their proprietary crap, and they will attempt to thwart linux via absurd propaganda campaigns. But none of that matters. Let the politics alone - that's not the IT workers job. Who is your IT staff, how are they trained? If they know what they are doing the OS shouldn't matter -- linux, aix, *bsd, windows, OS X, solaris: who cares?! We could all sit and bicker about the pluses and minuses of every server OS until the earth crashes into the sun, but the better plan is to skip the politics and educate the IT industry about every option and alternative. The problem with OS wars will always be that people believe that if they choose a side, fight for it, and win that they have won. Wrong. The burden of the IT professional and / or system administrator is one hell of a burden: you have to know everything. If you are an extremist in your profession to either side you are wrong -- it's not about the sys. admin. it's about the user and what works for them. It's about ensuring that *they* don't have to fix their computer -- that is our job. If a secretary has to spend even 5 minutes a day worrying about a program consistently crashing, or if they can log in or not, it's the admins. fault. period. Those are 5 minutes that they should have been doing what their job is. What we, as IT professionals, use at home is our deal, our preference, and our choice -- what we do at work is a different story. As an industry we all need to stop bickering and just learn our stuff, be competent, and be able and willing to work with everything that is out there to ensure that things "just work."
Assuming a great deal wouldn't you say. What makes you think that we don't remember a million years from now. I see only evidence that we continue after this life. I see nothing to substantiate we don't.
I disagree very strongly. My main operating system is Windows, which I operate on my University desktop. But, due to restrictions at my collate at my Uni, I can't use bittorrent or other peer2peer programs.
I have therefore got my old P2 350 running at home, and via SSH, bittorrent all my wanted TV shows to that, before FTPing it to my Uni box.
I'm a linux extremist? No, it just gets the job done.
Joe Zwers wrote a good article about Truth in benchmarking and how some companies blantantly manipulate data to reach marketing goals.
Slashdot coverage on earlier Linux vs Windows studies: here, here, here, here and here.
We also coverd a Microsoft study on W vs L
So, been talking to dead relatives I guess?
I see the opposite, but I suppose it wouldn't be "faith" if it was obvious now would it?
Spoken like someone who has never actually *tried* to install a Linux system. It's like saying that you wouldn't be able to drive the Ferrari, because you can't afford one.
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
On the flipside of that, there are many corporations who go out of their way to find people that know Linux and can get a Linux server running in no time, and do all their Linux support in-house. They actively train those who don't know it as well, and are proficient at providing all sorts of in-house Linux support. To these corporations, it can be hard to find someone who says "I know Windows really well" and expect them to know how to do some of the stuff an MCSE can do. Saying "I know Windows" in an interview is radically different than saying "I know Linux", and it shows in the levels of confidence in the interviewee (unless they are a good liar).
Your examples are terrible. Windows can't set the right resolution on nVidia cards without the drivers either. Does that mean Windows isn't ready for "prime time zero hassle common user usage?"
What about the geniuses who've sold Windows "without regard to education of the average business user on security?" How many SMBs have bought Small Business Server 2003 and had IIS compromised?
Also, you made the classic uninformed mistake of confusing Linux distribution-level mistakes with the quality of the Linux kernel. Now repeat after me:
"Linux is not a distribution, it is a kernel. Any problems with the distribution, X errors, etc, should be addressed with the vendor."
This guy is way out there
Okay, here's a novel thought to settle the argument: Windows is better for some applications, and Linux is better for others. If I want to set up a desktop that's easy to use for those without engineering degrees, I'll probably recommend Windows. If I want to run a data center which requires high flexibility, fast file access, and reliable, reduntant storage, I'll use Linux, or possibly Solaris. And finally if I want to deploy a large number of engineering workstations, I'll go with Linux.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
The truth is that Knoppix brings by default a tool caled "Screen Resize & Rotate" wich is on the system tray than can change the resolution on the fly with needing root premissions.
Also it scans the monitor not the video card for looking for modes(usually)
This Windows Linux debate is actually excellent marketing from Apple computers :)
As a veteran of selling on TCO, I've always got a kick out of these studies because they are so disconnected from reality. How can something that is like getting a five course buffet-style dinner for free somehow cost more than buying a meal a la carte, one dish at a time? I suppose it's the fact you've got to help yourself at the Linux buffet while they'll spoon feed you over at MS (and they really don't spoonfeed).
Linux has five advantages that simply render the conversation moot:
Cost of licenses
Customizability
Training Costs
Security
Out of box functionality
Linux licensing costs are self-explanatory. Hard to beat zero.
Linux is completely customizable. You can change anything and everything to fit your need.
MCSE certs are expensive. Linux certs are less so. Conversions from windows end users to linux are fairly painless. Sorry, Yankee, but learning how to operate a one windowing user interface is pretty easy when you are familiar with another.
Linux Security isn't perfect - but it's a quantum leap from Windows.
Where Windows cannot compete is with the out of the box capabilites of most every Linux distro. With Windows, you have to purchase thousands of dollars of software licenses to do what I can with my free download of Mephis or whatever. End user software is included. So is Server software. I'm out a minimum of $300 just to be able to do basic productivity. All those CALs add up with Windows.
-- $G
If a user wants a new feature or a bug fixed, then it actually happens, even without a competing product including that feature
.0001% of people and of absolutely no use to the other 99.9999% of people. And as for forking your own project, try it sometime. Do you have the time and resources to maintain your own source tree? Starting it is easy, maintaining such a beast is a huge commitment.
Yeah, I know that whenever my mom, who uses windows, needs her computer to do something new, she constantly complains that she can't just fire up a C++ editor and make the changes to the source code herself.
And my six year old nephew was complaining that his games were kind of sluggish. Poor kid can't just look at the source and find the problems.
Face it, the ability to change operating system code is a benefit for
Why doesn't Slashdot ever get slashdotted?
uh, no...the rock continues to be a rock without you being there to verify it. When you leave a room full of people, the trashcan in the corner is still there, regardless whether or not you can see it. Dewey was one self-centered individual, and it's quite sad how big an impact he had on modern thinking.
In contrast to what?
My IT department can't explain why the suspend option disappeared on my whiz-bang XP notebook. I only wish there was some config file I could tweak to bring it back.
I'm not saying Linux is perfect, but it seems you're implying that Windows is "zero hassle", which it clearly isn't.
Compromised roots, huh? It's cool that you've drunk the Windows Kool-aid and all, but if you are going to pretend to be neutral, you can't reveal your ignorance about one side.
-Peter
stepped outside, noticed the house was on fire, and we're trying to tell you to get the fuck out of there while you still can.
Did you try yelling "Porkchop Sandwiches!!!" ?
Wow , the above posters are weak. .
.It is on topic .
The parent is a simple joke , it made me laugh . Women or men are equal targets for satire , it just so hapens Didio looks awfully like Dildo or didiot
Wow some of the mods have no sense of humor , if you don't think its funny then mod it over-rated not offtopic
I've got a bone to pick with the never-ending stream of studies by tech research outfits comparing Linux to Windows. For starters, it seems like about half of them are paid for by one camp or another.
If we agree that this is the main premise, I have a problem with the write-up on Groklaw in the first place. I think it's unlikely that most corporations (to whom the original study was aimed at) will find much value in an article on a site that has never displayed much consideration for corporate interests.[1]
[1] Unless they happen to be interests that parallel the Linux community
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
The Toyota Tundra is made in San Antonio. That's definitely better than one made in one o' them Yankee states like Michigan.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
Odd that , as for me knoppix has always auto discoverd most of the monitors i used it on and thats alot of workstations. and if you want easy install , try ubuntu.
:(
Too bad all the distros have kernel 2.6.x, instead of 2.4. I run a scsi only system, and need that driver to load first. Knoppix 3.7 so far is the only one that has run on my system. I am an uber noob when it comes to Linux, so recompiling 2.6.x to load scsi first is out of my reach for a while. I want a chance to try K/Ubuntu, Kanotix, and Mepis, but I can't.
Of course without my previous Windows knowledge, I'd probably be in the same situation with it. I am glad however that Windows does give you at least some clue that drivers are missing for devices. If Linux did this, it would be major. I know Knoppix didn't find my media card reader/usb hub. If I was a total pc noob, I probably wouldn't have known it for a while.
Is your "in house" support free? If you started from scratch, would windows be cheaper? Would you have to hire an outside consultant to set up and run a single Linux box (say for your web pages)? Could you use a Gentoo LiveCD or LiveDVD to install Linux on a computer? What about white box linux or RHEL?
I've personally tried about a dozen times, and none of those installs worked correctly, and they all required a substantial amount of work to get them working even close to a Windows system working out of the box (none of the attempts ever yielded a 100% functioning PC). Thus, I know that a server would require a high-paid consultant to set up.
I don't respond to AC's.
Scientific method vs. philosophy!
Indeed there is little point pursuing ideas of relativeness - if existence is relative upon perception in someone's mind then their mind is absolute - neurons or whatever exist allowing them to think in the absolute. This could be contested...
If perceiving is perceiving, then absolutes are be perceived. There is the falacy of the scientific method: you think its a rock because it fits your perception of being a rock. What if it were a cleverly painted glass ball, it might look and feel like a rock but its not a rock - so your perception is incorrect.
All oranges observed are coloured orange at ripe maturity, do you believe this? So if all cars observed are red does this make all cars red?
Philosophical criticism of the scientific method is indeed interesting, and vice versa. I humbly recommend Kant as a starting point.
Care to quote any of that "evidence"? Your consciousness ends at the moment of death (or most likely slightly before it) and that is a comforting thing.
I just want to sleep away and never feel anything again.
No, a rock is a rock regardless if you are there or not. If your perception of reality is so distorted that you believe a rock is a herring, it doesn't mean it is one.
The only problem is that while you're out there yelling and screaming to get the fuck out before someone dies, most of the real world is inside getting on with life, annoyed in equal parts with the poor construction of the house and with the maniacs outside who are screaming bloody murder all night.
Linux / Windows is *not* a life or death choice for most of us who have jobs to do. So-called advocates who would present it as such do far more harm than good to Linux's reputation in the business world.
Cheers
-b
If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
I gave up listening to her B.S. during the HP/Compaq merger. She sounds like she just makes this stuff up as she goes along.
Niether is Microsoft Windows. Ask almost anyone who uses Windows. It's a hassle.
The issues you mention are installation. Few people could do a full windows install, including all vendor supplied device drivers.
The actual truth is BOTH systems are far beyond the capabilities of average, unsophisticated users, or anything other than casual day-to-day usage of common applications.
3. Windows will not be killed. Not going to happen. We will have competition indefinitely.
If you call 90% Microsoft market share with exclusionary back-room deals at all major computer manufacturers so that virtually no PCs ship with competitors products... then yet, looks like it's gonna be that way for some time. I just wouldn't call it "competition". "Monopoly" might be a much better word.
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
What's sad to me is that this kind of spin can be seen in just about every poll/survey you'll see in the mainstream media. The numbers and wording are often spun in a way to imply a conclusion that has nothing to do with the real question at hand.
There was one recently that in a survey of over 600 kids, the ones who played video games were responsible for two-thirds of the violent acts recorded for the group.
How horrible! Ban video games, now!
Of course nowhere can it be found what percentage of those sruveyed played video games. If over two-thirds played video games, its just possible we should be forcing kids to play more video games.
haha, this if fun because everyone thinks they are right.
Asking questions like "what is real" or "what is truth" is completely pointless and should not be even attempted.
I use Linux. I'm not a Linux zealot. I'm actually not too keen on Linus in general, and I'd switch to another free system if it suited my needs.
Unfortunately, none do except for Linux. So I use it. No extremism there.
And you missed the point.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
HaHa yes to me too :) . I see you got mod'd down for saying it though . Some people have no sense of humor .
Im a robot your a robot , That however is a row-boat
Thus, I know that a server would require a high-paid consultant to set up.
Dude, you really need to have a talk with my boss then. Tell him he needs to pay me more. I set up and maintain a few linux servers and firewalls here where I work and I'm sure as hell not high paid.
Slackware
Similarly, for gaming, business applications, enterprise servers or streaming media from your computer to your TV you won't go wrong with Windows.
1. Gaming, sure.
2. Business apps? Well, I guess if you really need to run OBSCURE_PROPRIETARY_APP, then yes, I guess you need Windows. Or you could use WINE. But that's cheating, isn't it?
3. Servers? Excuse me?
I think it would be better to say that Open Source is it's own competition... if some software project is stagnating, it gets forked, and the fork innovates until either the original project dies (see XFree86/X.org split), or until the fork gets merged back into the main project (see gcc/egcs split).
I've personally tried about a dozen times, and none of those installs worked correctly...
Uhm, I wouldn't admit that here. Makes people question your bona fides.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Translation: What follows is complete bullshit.
This is generally true for all instances.
Another common form is:
"Fact: So and so was blah blah blah..."
Translation: This is as far from factual as you can get, and still be in the same planetary systm. Fact: I hope this helps.
or some kid in high school who needs a little extra weekend cash...
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
None of your Windows support people have any interest in Linux? No-one has looked outside the current technology they are using? You're employing the wrong people. I have been a Linux specialist for the past 6 years or so. I still make sure I play with the latest versions of Windows though.
Speaking as a person who has installed many differnt distributions of Linux and has been using Linux for 11 years. I would agree with the Grand Parent. It is not just about installing the packages it is configurating them to do what you need them to do. To a group of people who think in terms of Microsoft and have them start working in Linux is a bigger push. Concepts like mounting drives, Finding the print driver for one of the many possible print servers, best ways to share files, Samba or NFS?, Dealing with RWX RWX RWX based permissions, and groups, writtig shell scripts, the CronTab, Finding drivers and worse installing them, knowing where the logs are and how to read them. Working with Linux is much differnt then working on windows. I am not saying one is harder then the other but just that they are differnt way of thinking about solving problems and to switch a group of people from one OS to an other will be at best problematic.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
and I recommend epistemology. "the truth is..." is the subject line, correct?
Again - a rock is a rock regardless of my perception of it. Science strives to find out what the truth is. That's why things (generally) have to be retested and tested again, and then many others have to be able to reproduce the results, before it is taken as truth....and even then, sometimes not.
I'm quite familiar with Kant, btw. Thanks though.
what does this story have to do with Google or Enterprise?
GET FREE APPLE STUFF!
No, I bill myself out at roughly $15/hour. ...and therin lies your problem.
They wouldn't have hire him to shill if he didn't know what he was talking about, right?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
I understand what you're saying, but your analogy is flawed, nonetheless.
.
.through the nose.
The difference is like purchasing a Fiat as opposed to being given a Ferrari.
Now, I've never owned a Ferrari, but I have owned an equivelent Maserati as well as several Fiats, so I can appreciate the difference that cost of operation alone can entail.
But here's the thing, if you can already do your own Fiat repair and maintenance in house you already have most of the skills and physical plant needed to maintain a Ferrari in house. Yes, you'll need a bit of training, but can acquire that bit by bit as you need it, while you keep your Fiat fleet running alongside until you're up to speed on Ferraris.
But here's the other thing, your Ferrari parts and much tecnical information is going to be available just as freely as your Ferrari was . .
But the Fiat stuff is going to continue to cost you. .
Yes, as well as a being a Maserati owner I have also converted a business from a Windows only shop to a Linux only shop.
We handled everything in house because the very first time we called MS for support they told us, "Ummmmm, have you tried reinstalling?"
So what the fuck good is their "support" anyway? We learned to do things ourselves, and when we started to wonder what the fuck good MS was in general we learned to do things with Linux ourselves as well.
You can too. For God's sake man, go read a book or something. (Unless, for some reason, you really want to give me $500/hr to read the book for you, I've got my eye on a bench built violin. I'll take your money, but, believe it or not, I'd really rather spend my time learning a Bach violin partita on my cheap Chinese fiddle)
When you do you'll find you've plugged into a source of free Ferraris for everybody, forever.
KFG
So you're saying that the parent post is wrong?
You heard it here first, folks. If ancient versions of Knoppix and Fedora give minor quibbles with your graphics card, then clearly Linux is doomed for the desktop.
did he? I doubt it. Just because he doesn't accept the BS "philosophy" that is taught in modern US classrooms (Dewey loved screwing with the education system...damn him) doesn't mean that he missed the point.
I don't get your point, since the article is from BusinessWeek.
Unless you believe that BusinessWeek has no consideration for corporate interests.
If all you're doing is installing Apache you should only need 320x200 1-bit text. And the $15/hr rate explains a lot about your skillset.
Whilst reading all the replies to Mr. Hamm's blog, I ran across one respondent who said he's used Linux the past two years and hadn't found a need to use Windows.
I have a dual-boot XP/Gentoo box. I love Gentoo (and Linux in general) to death. Why do I persist in keeping XP on my box? For the games. I am a games fiend to the point that only XP can feed the passion. Do I keep any critical information on the XP side? Hell, no! I use XP for games, nothing more. Linux is what I use when I need to get work done.
That having been said, I remember someone from the Microsoft camp (Ballmer?) claiming that "Linux is a toy." Well, MS if I only use XP for games, which OS do you think is more deserving of being called "a toy?" Although, I'm sure Yankee Group and her collection of didiots could put a different spin on it.
Mr. T pitied this fool on 27 July 1992.
The rock analogy is good. That must be Schroedinger's first question before he decided to use a cat. Good ole Schroe, so morbid. All the starving children and he's boxing up cats with plutonium and pinball parts.
WIsh I could help you out with that one. Every *nix consultant I looked at started at $50/hour. That makes *nix expensive for our business, considering that they'd also have to write applications that don't exist on the *nix platform, too.
I don't respond to AC's.
...I'm sure you can find a teenager at the local elementary school...
You might want to rethink this. This usually means they've been held back a year.
Translation: "Linux is too expensive 'cause I'm retarded"
That is inclusive of the 3% of invalid votes assumed from the quoted values in the article.
Face it, the ability to change operating system code is a benefit for .0001% of people and of absolutely no use to the other 99.9999% of people
That's just not true. I may never edit the source of a project or fork it. But I still benefit from the fact that others more knowledgeable than me can. Because of the forking and bugfixing that exists in the open source world I have:
Firefox instead of Netscape or IE
BMP instead of XMMS
Xorg instead of Xfree
Bug fixes that come faster than in the proprietary world
And I'm sure there's more that I'm just unaware of since I'm not a coder. A recent small example is that the latest Gnome didn't come with a menu editor. People complained and eventually a user (a non Gnome developer) made one. Now we're happy. Wouldn't have been so easy if they didn't have the code. See this article about how someone had to reverse engineer OSX just to get a desktop switcher. Which will probably become broken with the latest OSX release.
On the contrary, if that rock hits me in the head I believed it existed. If I didn't believe it existed, it could not have hit me in the head.
What does the screen resolution have to do with installing apache? If its a server then a gui is a complete waste of resources. I can't think of a single distribution that doesn't have a way to install from a command line be it on the console or through a ssh session. Since I'm a debian person here is all that is needed to get a working apache installation...
apt-get install apache
Nowt else. If its an rpm based distro then its a bit more work but the rpm program will tell you what dependencies are required or you could use yum or apt if its available.
Course then you have to configure it but that would be the same regardless of how it was installed. There is also lovely documentation with any distribution that covers this sort of thing. There are also some books available dedicated to the command line.
Well I have installed linux servers thousands of times.
I have not had a problem with bad installs in years.
I would agree years ago linux installs were not as easy
as they could have been, but time have changed a lot things.
If I get new hardware in, I test it to see if I have the drivers
I need to do the install. It is true linux does not
have all drivers for every piece of hardware out. If you have tried
installing linux lately, and it did not go well for you,
You still do not need the services of a consultant. What you
most likely need is the url of the hardware compatibility list.
Administering a linux server in not unlike maintaining
Microsoft servers. You will need to take the time to get accustomed to
the administrative task and applications. It is not out of your reach
to accomplish this. You should use the same sticktoitness that you
used to learn the Microsoft Os.
Good Luck on your next install.
A rock is indeed only a rock when I perceive it to be one. This computer is not a rock because I do not perceive it to be one. I challenge you to empirically demonstrate otherwise.
Or we could start with empirically demonstrating your existence to me. That'd be a good place to start. What evidence do you have of being a separate being, rather than something giving the impression of being one? You lose at solipsism.
godammit!
how can people trust a yankee?
Woah.
She probably just does not like hippies, and figures anything a bunch of smelly, unshaven, communists put together HAS to be bad, as compared to the grand example of American capitalism that is Windows.
Wow, you should really try getting away from /. once in a while and stop getting all of your ideas about the linux user base solely from here. most linux users I've met have been level headed people who know it's not some religion or polical ideology.
Silly rabbit
You want the truth? You want the TRUTH?
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
[random text put in here to avoid the fsckin' lameness filter]
How is this any different from these knowledgeable people putting together a company that produces a product you want? Oh yes, you'd just like to get everything for free, don't you?
As you stated, your office bought an expensive system because a consulting company told them they needed it and management bought it.
Our horror story is that our COO ordered all new computers for the company because a consultant told her that those celerons would never work, we need full blown pentium IVs.
Well, most of the celerons were 1.8ghz or greater and all of the software is run remotely using terminal services over DSL)
But, somehow, we have all new computers, running the same business apps just as slowly as before. But hey, at least they boot quicker and I must admit that solitaire is a lot faster!
The real problem isn't bogus surveys, it's management that buys whatever the consultant is selling, without stopping to verify the data.
I don't completely disagree if you consider "improve" to mean growth of an existing product. However, so much open source software is simply recreations of existing commercial software that you have to wonder what would happen if FOSS actually gained significant market share.
A recent post in the Freeciv thread made the interesting point that original FOSS is extra difficult because of the relatively unorganized and fluid nature of development teams. The loss of the primary developer can kill or radically alter any FOSS project, even with a commercial product to use a roadmap. Anything really new and inventive is exponentially more susceptible.
"but while something is universally true for me, might not be universally true for some(thing/one) else"
Something might be true in your situation, and not in someone else's, but what isn't true is that you should be using the words "universal" and "true" in your statement.
Mac users have been hassling Uncle Steve for years about two button mice. A two button mouse would go better with our Kool Ade because more buttons = more phun. Jeez. Please blame Uncle Steve for this, not the average Mac user.
It's not obvious to people that Microsoft's only using him for disinformation, not information.
And do you think that some amateur apt-get installation sets up a secure server?
Well, you actually do have choice in Windows as there are literally thousands of third party apps ranging from tightly integrated to Windows to stand-alone executable you can keep on a USB drive. Similarly, you have that in Linux.
If you mean that there's multiple flavors of it, then Linux really isn't an OS but a species of OS and of course, there's one exact example of whatever species Windows is, so no competition in that respect.
It is also false to say you're stuck with MS as so many do claim (not necessarily you). I've worked for corporations who had only to sign voluminous contracts and fork over large sums to get the ability to custom build Windows 95 for themselves internally to the point that it was as different from what MS sold as Fedora is from Mepis.
The thing that Open Source gives us which we need so badly is what we don't have with MS unless we give them large sums and that is how the frigging code works to begin with. I agree that people should have the rights to best use of the fruits of their labor and also that open sourcing one's work is one's right if one so chooses, so I won't get into partisanship on it.
However, is doesn't help MS in the slightest to keep such a tight fist wrapped around the code most in need of being fixed to improve the product. For crying out loud, if they just loosened a little, they might find a third party making something with their IP that was insanely good stuff and worth MS buying and making part of the next iteration of Windows. Instead, we have to rely on top down promulgation of advancement solely from Redmond and put up with their insistance on selling beta as finished product.
But unless and until Linux (I won't hold my breath on any variant of BSD other than OSX) becomes fool-proof in installation and basic usage and software addition (rpm? apt-get? make? wtf?) then Windows will remain where it is completely on top. (wtf? should be construed as "prior art" with regard to its usage in relation to app packaging. I openly release it to anyone's use as a name for a Linux app package system. Entirely appropriate as well I think.)
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Maybe it works correctly for some monitors. Knoppix detects my monitor and enters its DDC info into the Xfree86 config file correctly, including its native resolution, somehow it's preventing me from accessing that native resolution. Kanotix does the same thing with one step higher resolution. This is running in LiveCD mode.
You mean to say that suspend in XP actually worked for you once? I could never get that to work. I can't even get XP to power off correctly.
This is why microsoft don't crack down too hard on piracy of their software, so that linux can't get a hold. It is better for microsoft to have people stealing from them rather than using an alternative product.
Here's my own invalid anecdote (personal anecdotes are invalid as evidence of an overall trend):
We needed an Oracle server for a project at work. Because of the non-critical, but fairly high demand, nature of the app it needed a dedicated server, rather than getting to run on the shared Oracle server on the departmental Solaris box. So a simple Dell desktop was purchased with the fastest P4 available, plenty of RAM and IDE RAID-1 disks. This was fast enough to meet the needs, and it was decided stable enough for this application. If the server died it'd take at most a couple days for Dell to replace it, and that was an acceptable amount of time for it to be out of service.
Now because of anti-Windows zealotry of some people, it was decided that the server had to run Linux, SuSe was what they wanted. We didn't actually have anyone that was very experienced in Linux, mind you, just people that didn't like Windows, and Linux was the only viable x86 alternative to run Oracle on.
I tried several times to get SuSe to work, but it wouldn't. I did a net install from a CD, but after it was up it wouldn't get on the Internet anymore. I couldn't figure out what was happening. Answer turned out to be the network card was listed as unsupported by SuSe. Odd, given that their installer supported it fine.
So we switched to RedHat. Now I couldn't get the mirroring to work. Our Solaris guy came and fought with it for a couple days and got it working. I then went back to getting Oracle installed. This I could never get working, despite repeated attempts. The documentation didn't help, since it was assuming different things than what I had. Turns out this is because Oracle supports RedHat Enterprise Linux, not normal RedHat. Finally I was fed up and said "You want Linux, you install it." They fought with it for a few mroe days before calling Oracle who said "If it's not a supported OS we won't talk to you."
That put everything on hold since RHEL is quie expensive. I asked if I could please just try to install it on XP. They said fine, but it wouldn't work. I installed and patched XP, then installed Active PERL since that was needed for interfacing. I then put in the Oracle CD, told it to install, and it did so flawlessly.
So in the end what was about 2 weeks of fighting with Linux to no resolution was fixed in about 2 hours by installing Windows. The Windows license was to the effect of $100 (we got a discount). RHEL was looking like $1500 I think. Who knows what cost in staff time it would have taken to hack it to run on non-supported Linux, if it was even possible.
So in this case, Windows was a MUCH cheaper option.
Now this isn't to try and claim Windows is always cheaper, but rather to point out that little anecdotes, espically when related to s tiny server for a small project, aren't valid as evidence of a trend. Yes, there certianly are situations where Linux is the cheapest option, because it is available at no cost. However there are certianly cases where it's not, because the costs of making it work, or costs because of losses due to problems exceed the savings of not having to pay for it.
It's not a black and white issue.
Just to get a Linux box up and working would require hiring an outside consultant, which right there, adds a massive cost. It's like saying that a person who says that they can't afford a Ferrari is irrelevant since they've never bought one.
Can you afford a book on Linux? How about a CBT course? The time to take a course at the local community college? It seems you're really saying that you're unwilling to invest the effort to learn a new system. Given the latest IT employment surveys I've seen and their shift towards Linux admins, I'd say you're probably shortchanging yourself.
A couple non-critical points that I think a lot of non-Linux users miss:
1) All Linux distributions are not the same, or even close. Suse or Ubuntu are about all a beginner should use. Some distros are downright scary for non-experts (Slackware) while others pretend to be friendly even though they are not (Fedora/RedHat).
2) Servers are easy. Even on Windows it's harder to get a desktop system working with all hardware. In fact, Linux often does a better job at detecting hardware than Windows because on Windows you're expected to be able to go download a driver or two while most drivers on Linux come with the distribution. For example, an HP P1000 printer requires a 10MB download on Windows, but 'just works' with most Linux distros.
The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
I run a high-school on a 550Mhz P3. It runs file, print, backup, mail, web, and many other services...
In general the school runs very well... and there's lots of room for more load....
Building a hardware system that includes MySQL and selling that hardware system to customers for installation at their own locations. [Source]
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
No, I bill myself out at roughly $15/hour. ...and therin lies your problem.
That's being very generous. If I were to assume the going rate for IT work ($50/hour+), a Linux install would cost us *thousands* more than a Windows install.
I don't respond to AC's.
" I've personally tried about a dozen times, and none of those installs worked correctly"
That really sounds like a personal problem to me. Maybe your boss should replace you with someone a bit more competent?
Obviously someone who doesn't even understand the concept of a headless server...
It's a matter of admiration. Programmers/Open Source supporters admire people like James Gosling or Linus Torvalds. MBAs admire people like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates (and probably have neutral opinions of Gosling/Torvalds) because they have "achieved" things that MBAs strive for. And therefore progammers admire/respect programming/design/Open Source etc. MBAs admire Microsoft, Apple etc. Thus, programmers/Open Source supporters give more regard to technical facts and Open Source personalities. MBAs give more regard to "research" funded or supported by companies like Microsoft or Apple (Apple supporters wait, don't stone me to death yet. I'm not necessarily saying that Apple does such things. I'm just saying that if it did, then MBAs would swallow it.)
1. I can't get XP working on my computer with 1024x768 without going into the net, downloading a driver, installing it and changing the resolution. I also have to do that to have 24 or 32 bit colors. Where is the difference? The average Joe doesn't know how to install Windows either.
2. We can't requier that the user educate himself, but we can make a less sensible piece of software.
3. Yes, I also belive that Windows will not die, but if it doesn't become better, it will. Win may survive, but it will be very different from what we have today. Also, there is no bad on a possible Windows death, we will still have competiton, FOSS make it impossible to not have.
Rethinking email
We're a small company (less than 12 people). So then I'm assuming that Linux is only suited for Fortune 500 companies with massive IT staffs?
I don't respond to AC's.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
$50/hr is very cheap for a consultant. Especially for a short term job like a system setup. You're probably talking about 4-10hours of work depending on the system requirements. At most that's $550 bucks. If your business is that tight with $$, then you've got bigger problems.
BTW, If you *need* apps that only exist on one platform, you should probably stick with that platform. It would be foolish to pay for a custom build of a shrinkwrap product, especially when you consider the cost of maintenence.
Linux still isn't ready for prime time zero hassle common user usage.
Well, isn't that a load of horseshit. You personally have trouble with Knoppix and suddenly your problems apply to Linux as a whole.
Since anecdotal evidence seems to be all you need to support your claim, here's mine: I've had an easier time installing SuSe on machines since 8.0 than Windows of any version, with less hassles and far less driver/patch searching. In most cases Suse "just works", which is more than I can say for Windows (which "just works" once you find all the damned drivers and updates).
Since I'm willing to bet I've installed more instances of Suse than you have of Knoppix (perhaps by an order of magnitude, if you're an armchair critic) my anecdotal evidence trumps your anecdotal evidence.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Having received one of Richard Stallman's Please call it Gnu/Linux e-mails and having talked to Eric Raymond in person, I assure you that there is no single party line. There are many points of contention. Try using the term open source to describe Emacs while RMS is listening. For the most part the flames of the Emacs vs. vi holy wars no longer burn quite as hotly. But in some settings Perl vs. Python will create at least as much heat as light.
Laura DiDio denounced these penguins.
true but you could invent a hardness scale cr(crushability) (patent pending) and the rock will be say 3cr no matter who is looking at it.
The only difference is how easily you or the GCM can crush but it does not change the rock itself
How about a CBT course?
Yikes!!!!
If that's what it takes to learn Linux, count me out!
Thus, I know that a server would require a high-paid consultant to set up.
OK, let's say that's true. I do some consulting and usually charge about $50/hour which is actually very reasonable - at least where I live. I could install a full Linux system on most servers in 4-6 hours, so it would cost $200-$300 if I installed a Linux server for you. Microsoft Windows 2003 server standard edition's suggested retail price (with 5 licenses) is $999. With that pricing you could double the hourly cost to $100/hour and double the time to 8 hours and you would STILL be money ahead with a Linux system, especially if you require more than 5 licenses.
So, explain to me how Windows is cost effective, even if you have to hire a 'high-priced consultant'.
Find coupons in Greeley
" know. I'm being silly. But their headline was just as silly. OK, here's another headline, just as accurate:
Nearly One-Third of All Small and Medium Sized Businesses Have Already Switched to Linux "
This is clearly a false statement. Switching to Linux implies no Windows systems at all.
I would suspect most companies are much like where I work. A few Linux servers, firewalls and development systems but most of the workstations run Windows.
A more accurate statement would have been
"Nearly One-Third of All Small and Medium Sized Businesses Already Use Linux".
I know she was using her statement to show how you can spin something but it was too far the other way to be an equal spin.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I think the point is that Linux is suited for companies (of any size) with competent IT staffs...
Fortunately Windows consultants are FREE as in free beer.
Mark Twain's famous quote about statistics STILL applies.
Linux here is suffering from the same issue that Mac/Windows comparisons suffer from- Everyone has used Windows, but not everyone has used Macs, so quoting statistics such as "75% of computer users think non-Windows computers also have virus, spyware and security issues" really doesn't say squat, unless you ONLY survey those who use both regularly... but since that intersection is a much smaller set than the "set of all computer users", you run into other issues. or?
Not at all, Linux is a setup and forget platform. It does not suffer from creeping slowness, expanding (undefragable) swap files, or other little nasties you've had to grin and bear under windows. If you're that small of a company, take a night off (not even an afternoon mind you, go at like 7:00 pmish, or whenever your "slow" time is) and buy a $50 book on Linux, you'll be up and running within days, and over the course of a few years you'll have substantial performance increase and maintance decrese.
That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
You should seriously consider waiting on tables.
Tips included I'm sure you'll rake in more than $15 an hour. Plus there's all the free eats!
She reported that SCO's claims seemed justified. She told me: "It appeared to be a direct cut and paste right down to the developers' notes."
I do notes before programming anytime (doodles might be a more accurate word), and will write down flowcharts and algorithms for anything bigger than a script. But I do all of them in some piece of paper with a pencil, and paste it in front of me when I'm programming. WTF are "developer's notes", and how would SCO get the hold of the notes of some programmer who worked on Unix 20 years ago in a small office cubicle, or the ones of another one who worked on Linux in some dorm room 10 years ago?
Would "developer's notes" mean, by any chance, the same thing as source code for this woman?
I must say it is really an important difference, for the notes are more personal and, if they are similar, then the posibility of copyright infringement is way bigger than if the source code is similar. Specially when you are talking about POSIX compliant systems (same interfaces) that follow standard algorithms.
The war's heating up. Most the Linux and Windows FUD machines are in high gear, spreading all sorts of lies about both OSes. If only people would live in reality for once.
Either, it's a "metric tonne" or an "imperial ton". different spelling!!
Niether is Microsoft Windows. Ask almost anyone who uses Windows. It's a hassle. Am I mistaken or what, but isn't this flame bait? I use Windows and I use Linux. Windows is not a hassle. Yes, there are security flaws. But think about this. Is it really that MS is putting out a bad product, or is it that there are people so jealous and angry at MS that they give there life to finding all the security holes in Windows? I do aggree that if Windows was Open source, these issues would get fixed a heck of alot faster. I also agree that Windows is too expensive, especially when I have a drawer full of NT and 98 disks just sitting around (those should count for something!). I love Fedora, and use it regularly. However, when it comes to gaming, I put my Linux box to the side.
YOBOER
You're talking about an OS which requires "Next... Next... Next.... Next" to install and you've never managed to get it right once.
Tells me more about you than the OS.
Please, explain to me:
a) Why you want a GUI on the server itself.
b) Why you cannot use remote access without a GUI. (ssh)
c) Why if you really need graphical applications running on the server you cannot use remote access. (ssh+X forwarding, vnc, rdesktop, etc)
Having a display on a server shows a lack of ability to administer said server remotely, which any competent admin should be perfectly capable of doing, barring hardware failure.
You could try FreeBSD. It is easy to install, and can run linux binaries. It is probably more stable than linux, and overall quite nice.
Qxe4
"You lose at solipsism."
Well, try to tell this to me if we are ever face to face just to see how my unexistant fist breaks your teeth (the Diogene's approach... by the way, do the solipsist's teeth exist?).
I know my fist is not a refutation for your solipsism, but I can sure you unexistant-I would make good laugh at it, anyway!
You may not be able to do it, but you are able (legaly at least) to pay someone else to do it for you, and that's freedom, baby.
BS. MySQL is GPL, period. If you follow the GPL, you're fine.
Your linked page says that it's only for those who don't want to give out the source code for their product when that product includes MySQL code or is linked to (or otherwise dependant on) MySQL code (which the GPL would require).
The commercial lisense != GPL, thus the GPL doesn't have to be followed, but if you can live with GPL, go ahead. Using GPL software in a corporate environment is *newsflash* not violating the GPL.
If they distribute software under the GPL, they can't put up a notice on a website saying "oh by the way, if you use that software for more than 5 minutes you owe us thousands of dollars," just like they can't say that "other rules apply for commercial environemnts."** You recived the software under the GPL, thus the GPL applies, end of story. The commercial lisence is only for scenarios that would otherwise violate the GPL. He's not violating the GPL, he doesn't need the commercial license.
**) They can of course do this, but then it would have to be a part of the license, and then they couldn't call that license GPL, because it simply wouldn't be GPL.
dewey??
that little dude from "Malcolm in the middle"?
bah!*@%!
a few smart people just ignore the buzz and stick to *BSD
a VERY few. and getting fewer all the time. oh, and by the by, it's official.
this is a 'trashcan' computer as you'd probably call it across the atlantic. made from 2-5 year old components, that windows users had decided were too slow for them, i put fc3 on it, which runs non-3d applications well at a more than satisfactory speed.
:p
the 20 quid was for a cd-drive and an MS optical 5 button mouse. hey - they make ok hardware
A rock is a rock unless it's being used as a hammer, in which case it's a hammer
If it's being used as a hammer, it's a rock being used as a hammer, not a hammer.
Slow Down, Cowboy! It's been 60 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment.
While it is true that linux has better hardware detection than Windows the range of hardware usable with windows is much larger than on linux because you can download manufacturers drivers rather than having to rely on comunity supplied ones. In addition the performance and feature set of the linux drivers is in many cases inferior to the windows versions.
In the example you gave the HP printer will be able to print right away using CUPS but things such as status monitoring and many of the more advanced features such as printing for special paper types are not available.
3D acceleration certainly does not just work for linux. It is much harder to set up and doesn't perform as well as windows particularly if you have an ATI card. 3 months of pain to get my Radeon Card working adequately.
There are many things which linux does much better than Windows but hardware support is a great example.
Do I work for a Fortune 500? No. If you are a small company then you should be looking at *anything* that can provide you an edge over the big guys. That makes new technologies and Linux even more important to you. Why do you think you need a "consultant" to help you? Why aren't you encouraging people to better themselves in any spare time (if your IT person/people don't have *any* spare time you are well and truly fucked the next time you have a crisis).
When you leave a room full of people, the trashcan in the corner is still there,
You can't prove that, and can only say such a thing because it fits your 'common sense'.
This is the way most people view 'reality'. They think that conciousness is a product of matter. Why that should be 'common sense' and not the opposite (namely, that matter is a product of conciousness) is interesting.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
Actually after about 3-4 Gentoo installs additional installs (provided the hardware is supported by linux which should be a job for the purchase department) will cost me about 1/2 hour of my time + lots of CPU time of the PC. Windows installs fragment the time I need more by asking dumb questions every few minutes (yeah, I know about unattended, it is a pain in the ass and badly documented) and cost me more of my personal time. Sure, I would probably bill more than the 1/2 hour if some company hired me (as a "consultant") but if I were their full-time employee I probably had other things I could do while waiting. Not to mention that linux installs can be scripted when you want to deploy really large numbers.
Linux is not Windows
All I need to know is that Yankme Group are the ones that were pumping MCI/Worldcom when I was an employee. I lost a lot of my 401k based on their bullshit and my naivete'.
"He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
Expecting a GUI just because MS indoctrinated you to believe it is more usable with one than without when the server will probably only run with a monitor for 1/2 hour per year is simply retarded.
Linux is not Windows
Thanks for understanding my point perfectly. Both the original title and the subject of my post fit the facts, and yet distorted them to fit an agenda. I highly recommend the book How To Lie With Statistics by Darrell Huff. Notice the publication date. It has been in print for 50 years. The style and some of the details of the examples have a dated feel to them. But the math and the spin-doctoring tricks are still dead on.
Hey...two mouse buttons are better than one and I'm a Mac zealot. I hate apple mices.
I do use Windows, and I'm not against Microsoft, but I want this bitch fired.
"Every *nix consultant I looked at started at $50/hour"
Just in order to compare? What are Windows consultant rates over there?
Where's the "-1, Car Analogy" mod when you need it?
You fail to properly demonstrate the line between perception and reality, and you're obviously arguing just for the sake of argument. Reguardless of whether or not you percieve a rock as a rock, it will still be one. Lets say you percieve a rock as being a dog (which you won't). The rock isn't a dog. You just percieve it as one. I will percieve it as a rock, even when you don't. That is what makes it reality.
Slow Down, Cowboy! It's been 60 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment.
It worked for the first couple of days. It still powers off fine. It's just a pain in the ass to have to reboot the thing every time I move it.
-Peter
you say it like wanting to get something for free is wrong?
i didnt know that.
3D acceration does not work with ATI in linux. It took you three months to realize that ATi has poor linux support? Nvidia supplies an installer script that installs the Nvidia drivers with full 3d acceleration. Takes 2 minutes to install and I have made it work with Gentoo, Suse 9.2, mandrake 9. I will not buy ATi simply because of that. For a linux desktop system one should not use ati for video....ati is MS's biatch.
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both. Dwight D. Eisenhower
Sorry dude, but an artist is only as good as his materials, and I was supplied the materials, I didn't choose them.
KFG
I think the point is that Linux is suited for companies (of any size) with competent IT staffs...
Uhh.. Most 12 employee businesses don't have dedicated IT staff, unless their core business is IT related. They rely on some non-IT person to figure out how to set things up, or they pay a consultant to install something they think is appropriate.
(AC because I already moderated.)
I'm the owner and the IT guy. I'm too busy running my business to dick around with it. And, I fail to see how using Linux will give me an edge. If anything, it'll put me at a distinct disadvantage, since I'll have to spend a year or so writing basic financial applications that run on Linux.
I don't respond to AC's.
Quit whinging. DiDio is doing you a favor.
All the MBAs are looking around at each other waiting to hear a sensational Linux success story. But they are particular. Novell saving millions by switching means nothing. Novell's quarterly earnings coincidentally exceeding expectations-- now that would carry weight.
Aha, you say, so they ARE all idiots. No, they're not. For them, the right time to switch is at the exact same moment the competition does. At any other time, change would meet with disapproval. Perception of their company would deteriorate, translating into stock fluctuation, a serious matter
So how is Didio doing you a favor? As soon as that magic moment occurs and every MBA decides it is time to switch, your company officers will try to minimize risk through enacting policies regarding the company rollout of Linux. Face it, you could care less that there is a penguin on your desktop, you just like the freedom it represents. Kiss that freedom goodbye when upper management co-opts your dream by forcing you to use your least-favorite distro and regulating which apps will and will not get installed. Goodbye grep, hello Outlook For Linux. Sound far fetched? It's already happening where I work.
Who needs an expensive consultant to install linux? What expensive consultant, in his/her right mind, would recommend a system that yelds a lower commission? It has been my experience that most GNU/Linux installations have been done by network administrators that need to get something up and running as quickly as possible. Expensive "solutions" required lots of pre-thought. Downloading a distro then installing and setting up daemons require no more than the will to try.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
I paid for it..
I didn't remember how much so I put a $. I didn't put 0$. I think it was about 150$.
If I open sourced the project then MYSql would be free.
It would be more like saying they could not drive the ferrari becuase they, nor their friends know how to drive stick.
FreeBSD doesn't have software suspend. I've used it before, and overall it's fine.
It's Didiot.
Since you brought up SuSe I'll give you a little of my experience with the latest version of Suse.
My PC has a Linksys ethernet card in it which is covered under the "tulip" driver and I have had no problems whatsoever with dhcpd obtaining an IP address from my DHCP server in the past using Linux installations, however I then installed the newest version of SuSe and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get my network interface to come up despite the number of GUI tools and the like. Reinstalled Windows and voila.
Then again, I suspect if someone less knowledgable than myself was to encounter either hardware/software problems within either Linux or Windows which are harder than:
1. Insert CD
2. Wait for Autoplay
3. Hit Install
Then they may encounter issues within either OS.
Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
Gee, I thought most linux users were members of Slashdot.
) Servers are easy. Even on Windows it's harder to get a desktop system working with all hardware. In fact, Linux often does a better job at detecting hardware than Windows because on Windows you're expected to be able to go download a driver or two while most drivers on Linux come with the distribution. For example, an HP P1000 printer requires a 10MB download on Windows, but 'just works' with most Linux distros.
I think I stopped running linux when I found out there wasn't a driver even made for my wireless network card. In windows, it just works.
although you may have a valid example, there are more drivers built into windows than any linux distribution.
if some software project is stagnating, it gets forked, and the fork innovates until either the original project dies (see XFree86/X.org split), or until the fork gets merged back into the main project (see gcc/egcs split).
I don't disagree with your post, there have been some projects that split until the original dies but XFree86 is not one of them. X.Org had stagnated for a while, XFree86 came out and started producing a better X Server. After time passed XFree86 started to stagnate and X.Og merged back the changes to produce what we have now. So I personally think this is more akin tot he gcc/egcs split.
Can I get an eye poke?
Dog House Forum
Linux still isn't ready for prime time zero hassle common user usage.
:-)
Neither is Windows
Windows will not be killed.
Windows, as we know it, will most certainly "be killed", eventually. Windows in its 3.x form is dead, Windows in its 9X form is all but dead, and Windows in its current NT form too will pass, in time.
Windows the brand may or may not live on. I'd expect that eventually, Windows the brand will be replaced too, but that's one of those 'unknowable' things. Maybe Google will buy MS in 2053, and rebrand its Windows/BSD/Firefox OS as MS Google OS. Or in 2037, MS will release (15 years late) MS Xplore, the "revolutionary" replacement to Windows. Or maybe MS will become just another Linux vendor in 2073. You get the idea.
"Well, think of it like this: we stepped outside, noticed the house was on fire, and we're trying to tell you to get the fuck out of there while you still can. Yes, I'd say we're a pretty zealous lot."
Except that the house is not on fire. You just don't like living in it, and therefore, no one else should live in it either.
Vote for Pedro
you are just being obtuse now. There are plenty of packages that do just what you are looking for on linux. There are tons of free software packages available and some that you can pay for and get support if you so desire. Doing so usually gets you in touch with a company that does so much more than a shrinkwrapped company that puts you into the voicemail box of some salesman turned support specialist who knows the product for the full 98 days he's been there.
I think that's what he was trying to imply.
>>Sig under construction
I'm sorry, there's no real way to ask this delicately. Are you a total muppet?
wow, this is sure going to convince companies to start using linux.
Installing a Linux box 10 years ago could be considered difficult, but getting a fully functional system up and running today is literally child's play.
functional? maybe. fully functional? hardly. Linux still needs work in the driver support department.
But seriously, if you can't get a standard click-the-next-button-a-few-times install CD to work then you either have some seriously non-standard/broken hardware, or you're a moron.
if you ever want linux to surpass windows in usage, you might consider a better approach.
After surveying a number of IT professionals about what they thought of Laura Didio.
75% said she was a stupid b%$^*
12.5% said she was a mindless whore.
12.5% said "who's Laura Didio".
Powerpoint presentations are currently being edited. This is a 3rd party survey so we can't give out any particulars of the survey or how it was presented. But we can tell you that no corporate sponsorship was involved.
Same goes for s/w. Windows doesn't have to be easy to use. Just easier than linux. And it is because thats what most people are used to.
Ease of use is subjective - what you really mean is easy to use for me. And windows is.
Am I missing something?
Yes. The MySQL people are tools who like to make outrageous licensing claims and bully commercial users into buying their commercial license. Whenever they're called on it, they blame it on "overzealous sales people".
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Which is why people are unable to hit cars they did not see/hear, and thus could not believe existed.
Slashdot: Where anecdotes and generalizations can be freely substituted for facts, logic, or intelligence
Here's some insult to your injury...
.h files she doesn't even understand!
From the linked article:
When SCO first made its claims that IBM had misappropriated some of its code and handed it over to the Linux community, SCO showed samples to several analysts to prove its copyrights were being infringed. DiDio, a former journalist and not a programmer, was one of them. She reported that SCO's claims seemed justified. She told me: "It appeared to be a direct cut and paste right down to the developers' notes." A couple of months ago, the judge in the case wrote that he had seen "an astonishing lack of evidence" backing up SCO's claims. On the phone, I asked DiDio's reaction to the judge's statement. She said: "I can't reconcile it. I want to see what's presented in court."
So... what you have is a woman who is not a programmer, making conclusive statements after looking at
There's a point, like the boiling point... let us call this point the Enderle point... at which you have simply lost all professional credibility. You are seen as nothing more than a suck up, a Nathaniel Branden of IT (Little Ayn Rand hatred slipped out there, sorry).
Can we now write DiDio off as a shill? Like that woman who did fake newscasts for Bush, or Robert Novak?
I personally, welcome shills like DiDio. Every day respectable journalists let a woman like her survive, they put another nail in their coffin and the net and social-based expertise groups become authoritative sources for real news pulling from many sources to draw complete conclusions. So, I say, good on her. Make a few bucks at the Microsoft trough. Sell credibility you never had in the first place. Kill the industry rags. More opportunity for other people to emerge as experts when the people you used to listen to are revealed as phonies.
So you're lumping ALL MBA's into one category and ALL programmers into another?
Seems pretty stupid to me.
I'm an MBA and I don't admire people like Bill Gates. I love linux and OSS. I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but I am a gamer. I'm waiting for the time a few years from now when gaming hits linux full force and I can move completely away from microsoft.
I'm a data architect and have a naturally sceptical mind. I probably swallow less bullshit than you.
Awww, it says you have no friends. :(
Too bad you don't work for me, I think I'd take you to lunch and give you a raise. Of course, would have already done that when the first Linux server came online. I have been and continue to be anti-microsoft and my company reflects that attitude.
I have yet to find any software that I have to use that only runs on the windows-platform. I can not justify the frustration of running anything, not just server-specific software, on windows. SuSe Linux and Warp Server runs just fine for me.
Especially since a Linux distribution by the government would fit better in China's economics than inviting an American company in, especially when that company is Microsoft.
Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
it was either there, or it wasn't.
In fact, calling it "the trashcan in the corner" grants it the permanence that it deserves without my self-absorbed desire to make myself a GOD capable of creating and destroying universes at my mere whim, my mere perceptions.
This stupid thing will not keep me logged in... maybe I should switch to Firefox instead of trying to get Konqueror to work right. Arrrgh!
You may have installed something that isn't compatible with ACPI. A new driver or device and windows xp automatically removed the suspend option because that one new addition doesn't have proper suspend abilites.
well duh, who else would I be talking about...
Actually, it takes a lot less time to setup a Linux server than a Windows server -- at least to set it up right.
A typical Windows server requires a huge amount of work making sure that everything is properly disabled, and that permissions are set up right.
Linux usually consists of saying chkconfig XXXX off a number of times, for everything that doesn't need to be running.
Then you get the security issues. With Windows, you need to update quite often, while with Linux you can get away with about once a month. Plus, on Linux, you get your updates in pieces, so you only have to update what you are actually vulnerable for.
The maintenance cost of a Linux _server_ is much less than that of Windows. The cost of a Linux desktop is smaller if used as a thin client, and greater otherwise.
Engineering and the Ultimate
I'm being obtuse? Oh, well, since this is so simple, let's see just ONE Slashdotter put his money where his mouth is.
I will pay any know-it-all Slashdotter $2000 US to set up ONE computer here at my business. It has to run a financial package that handles all business accounting, including payroll, and all tax forms. It must be able to import data from Quickbooks. It also needs to run a point of sale system that is easy to use (no more than 5 minutes of training), accepts credit cards, and works with all standard point of sale software. It has to have 99.9% uptime. Oh, and the point of sale software must be able to pass sales, inventory data to/from the financial package. All of this must be done in one day (cannot afford any downtime). Please email all offers to: chretailmgr@yahoo.com This is non-negotiable, since this can all be done (for less than $2000 and in less than one day) under Windows 2000.
I don't respond to AC's.
So anyway.. :) Hopefully this works.. freshamn_a, I wrote the two previous posts but as I said, Konqueror doesn't track or something... have to log in a lot. Oh well,
Agrisea Tsunami - Epyc Servers... https://agrisea.net/products
Yeah, I'm one of those high paid consultants. I charge $100 per machine to install Linux and that includes setup of a few of the most common apps they might run like Apache, mySQL, etc.
I pop a Fedora CD in, click 'Next' about 8 times,pick the softwaae I need, change the CD 3 times, and reboot. Thats it.
I just can't get Hibernate to work ;)... the machine just hangs up.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
You wrote your own? Is there any place you have it published/listed? Because I have a lot of series ripped to disk, and it's a pain in the ass navigating them, and what you have sounds perfect for what I want...
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Or virus writers would have to come up with new viruses. It is much easier when everyone is on the same, unsecure platform.
I dunno, but I've been seeing a *lot* more "How do I do $this in PHP/Mysql on Windows Server 2003..." posts and "I'm running $expensive_firewall on Windows..."
More mailing lists (Checkpoint FW-1) and stuff (Squirrelmail too) are getting more posts about Windows. Even the simply trouble ticket system I've used (osticket) now has tons of Windows questions posted in the forums.
Is it just the competency of the admins? Quite possible, but if one was going to take a Google around the web, they might be inclined to think that Windows was the OS to throw weight behind in the server market.
Just a thought. Maybe a poor one, but it's definitely something to notice.
That's nice and all, but that machine doesn't do anything. Give me a price on setting up a machine with a full-featured financial package, including payroll and tax forms, billing system, etc. That machine also needs to run a point of sale system that has integrated credit card and debit card processing, and integrates with the financial package. It has to handle all standard point of sale hardware (card swipe, receipt printer, cash drawer, pole display, and UPC scanner).
I don't respond to AC's.
That's being very generous. If I were to assume the going rate for IT work ($50/hour+), a Linux install would cost us *thousands* more than a Windows install.
That's not true. While people say "OSS is only free if your time is worthless", they forget to mention that you need just as much time with windows. Linux can be installed very quickly by someone who knows what they're doing. There are also powerful, automated setup programs available that any competent Unix admin should be able to use. Using that could save a bunch of time and a lot of money over installing Windows on a bunch of machines. Windows takes time too.
If by "fully functional" you mean being able to surf the web, then you're the muppet. I said that this is for a business.
I don't respond to AC's.
It's a laptop. It won't suspend undocked with nothing external (e.g. USB, PCMCIA, SD) plugged in.
And if it's going to sneaky-behind-my-back disable features, shouldn't it have a list of reasons somewhere? Like under power management? Like "Suspend is disabled because you installed a docking station."
-Peter
Interesting. Here, most have Windows and Linux both, or just Windows.
Games run better or are Windows-only, and we work in a Windows shop so work is also Windows-centric too.
But many are using Firefox, so it's not that we prefer to pay for something we can have for free, it's just that switching to Linux isn't "free" (at least until the support for many of the things we Windows users take for granted is there).
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
That's kind of like saying marijuana was involved in a 1/3 of all car accidents. One could conclude that straight drivers crash at twice the rate of stoned drivers.
Many times it's how you spin the statistics.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Actually, when you get into a touchscreen based environment, operating systems that expect 2 button (or more) mouses are a liability.
If you say so. Having done kiosk touch-screen work myself, I have to question your claims. When doing kiosk development, you usually either write browser-based applications (running the browser in "kiosk mode"), or use an application toolkit that is provided by your kiosk vendor. At any rate, the right-click functions are not necessary or even desired. Having no way to get to them for your science center vistor tapping a screen is no issue. Does Grandma really need access to "View Source" so she can see your HTML code?
If we were leaving the operation of the kiosk entirely up to the Operating System, we'd run up against the double-click problem long before we worried about something as unimportant as right-click. But we don't run into either because we use toolkits/browser running a customized single-click application flow.
I mean, seriously, do you have your science center visitors punching around Windows Explorer trying to figure out how to delete "C:\Program Files" without a delete button or right-click?
The thing many slashbots forget is that Linux is not the perfect solution for everyone, all the time. It sounds like you've got a pre-existing network with hardware & software that needs to work. You have the experience & knowledge to make it work quickly & correctly under Windows 2000. Therefore, trying to shoe-horn Linux into your environment is probably not a smart move.
However, it is important to also realize the costs of using Windows. If this system is in any way connected to the Internet there is an associated maintenance cost (have to keep checking for security updates) and risks (what if the newest update breaks your system, or your server gets hacked before you get the next update)? Both of these concerns apply to Linux as well, but many would argue (I think fairly) that the risks are much lower due to a better security architecture.
The other concern with Windows is on-going licensing & support costs. Your system may work today, but in 5 years you may not be able to get support for your software (eventually Microsoft will end-of-life W2k, and your POS & financial software will have updated versions as well). This is a concern with Linux as well, however some argue (and I think this is pushing it) that you could hire a consultant to do support for your old system because you have the source code. While that is true, I expect that to be the very rare case.
I don't know anything about the financial software & POS systems available to Linux, but if/when those components become commercially available & viable it might be worth it to investigate Linux - it may save you money on licensing & support costs, it may make your system more secure against hackers / viruses, and/or it may provide you with improved functionality that was not possible/practical with Windows. But Linux is not the miracle cure that will make all of your problems go away, and it's not the right solution for every situation, despite what some may claim here.
Why did you run the live CD at less than maximum resolution?
At the boot of Knoppix CD live, hit F2. Then enter
knoppix screen 1024x768 (or whatever)
Actually, when you get into a touchscreen based environment, operating systems that expect 2 button (or more) mouses are a liability.
:)
As are fingerprints
Life is too short to proofread.
> Sorry dude, but an artist is only as good as his materials
And here I thought that an artist is as good as his talent...
I agree. For all of those reason you've gone through, I have pretty thoroughly looked at what was out there. Right now, there are pretty much -zero- off the shelf solutions available for something as simple as a small brick & mortar store, making me have to consider somebody writing an application from scratch (which is obviously out of the question). I'll probably check back to see what's new with the *nix world in a few years, but right now, retail on *nix is really just for *very* large retailers that have the money for custom solutions.
I don't respond to AC's.
Yes, the proprietary masters have laid out a big enough tent where all can lose their freedom; no need to choose between them. It's sad how this framing of the debate helps perpetuate people's ignorance of software freedom: Run what you want, the "Linux [sic]" OS, and debating over price. It's no wonder people play right into the hands of the proprietors. Even the supposedly more educated readers of /. don't bother to acknowledge anything but that framing of the debate.
You who support running "Linux" will never gain the popularity you seek against a series of proprietors willing to lower their price to free. You're virtually handing them the argument by framing the debate in terms any proprietor can compete with instead of recognizing the trap this poses for users in the long term.
Digital Citizen
I'm reading this on a box (which I built) running Linux, with some Home Pride motherboard and video card - 1280x1064 resolution and 16 million (or whatever) colours. I didn't _have_ to do anything (except agree with what the installation software suggested) to get this to work. Now, while I'll happily concede the soundcard doesn't work (or at least I don't think it does - I can't be fucked investigating something I really don't need that much), everything important (like network card, already-mentioned video card, CD burner, 120MB of hard disk, etc, etc) works fine. Straight out of the box.
I'd say at $15 per hour, you're just a tad overvalued.
What a long, strange trip it's been.
1. Linux still isn't ready for prime time zero hassle common user usage.
As someone who spends many a weekend at his parents', aunts', uncles', or cousins' house fixing the damn mess that is Windows, you must explain to me exactly what is "zero hassle". On every Windows computer I "fix", I install AVG antivirus, ZoneAlarm, Firefox, AdAware, Spybot, and bring them up to do date with WindowsUpdate. I teach them how to run AdAware, Spybot, and WindowsUpdate regularly. And somehow, I usually have to come visit again in a couple of months. How is this zero-hassle? I can assure you I've hassled less since I switched from Windows to Linux.
The closest thing I've seen would be OSX. But I've had roomates with OSX, and I can assure you that even it is not zero hassle.
Very good. Your world view is not as simple as I had though. My apologies.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
OK, thanks for telling me that there is an exception to a general rule. You see, when people say "all", they really, honestly do mean all without any exception whatsoever. But you knew that, since you swallow less bullshit than me.
I'm saying something negative about the majority of MBAs. You're an MBA too. But I'm not saying that you have a small penis. Get over it.
Notice the prior post that said if you are stuck with a shrinkwrapped package, maybe its not the best plan for you. There are tons of open source Point of sale systems, take your pick, most linux folks can get a stable, secure, fully patched system running apache in under an hour. You would still want to keep your windows desktop that handles quickbooks unless wine supports it, however if anyone knows if there is something that handles quickbooks data please reply I would be really curious about it. As it has been said, Linux is not everything for everyone, but it is quite a lot, and a massive timesaver for many people.
Oops, that's 120GB of disk. I need more coffee.
What a long, strange trip it's been.
Windows being the only OS for games has nothing at all to do with drivers. It is entirely, 100% because of game companies not feeling the need to make their games portable. When game companies realize that its cheaper, faster and better to license someone else's engine than write their own for every game, then windows will not matter for games.
Of course the majority of questions on a checkpoint list are going to be windows related, checkpoint exists so windows shops can have a firewall.
And as for people asking questions about PHP/mysql apps running on windows, that's very much about competancy. Most people who use unix systems are capable of setting up a simple app, and also capable of searching newsgroups/mailing lists, etc to find answer to problems. Windows users are on average much less familiar with software, and much less familiar with solving problems for themselves.
"...regard the Yankee Group's findings with the requisite metric ton of salt in the future."
The whole point of the "take it with salt" phrase is to take something partially untrue (unpalatable) and make it tasty (acceptable). How on earth would a metric ton of salt make something more palatable?
If you really think a pinch of salt isn't enough, perhaps you could recommend some sugar as well.
An artist will certainly create art out of whatever comes to hand. If all he has is a pile of dirt he will create an artful pile of dirt, but he won't create Keat's Grecian urn.
If, however, all he has is dirt, and he creates art out of it, and is taken to task for not creating a ceramic urn out of it, well, the fault lies with the accuser.
If my writing sucked, so be it, it often does and I'll often be the first to piss and moan about it, but in this case the subject matter was supplied to me by someone else. I did what I could with a car analogy given my paucity of talent and a pile of dirt.
I would have fared better had I been supplied with porcelain. I could at least have made an urn. Maybe a little out of round, and the glazing might have come out a bit crudely, but at least it would have held water.
For sufficiently small quantities of "hold."
Similarly an artist may do wonderful things with VB, and if that choice is made for him (or, for that matter, if chooses to use it for the sheer artistic challange of it), for one reason or another, I'll certainly not take him to task for using it, nor gainsay the quality of his own work over my issues with VB.
It's still a shitty VB program.
Good though.
KFG
I fail to see how using Linux will give me an edge .asp page are loading slower than shit! Maybe some apache/linux would run better, OBTW the images on the Newman's own dog food page are broken; the more I think about it the more I think something is seriously wrong on your website, I'm not a windows expert or anything but those pages should be loading much faster, either something is miss-configured, and there is way to much resources used on the back-end, or your on over-shared hosting and the DogDude is definately not the alpha male in the pack.
How about you've got a website, with a nice clean design, no excessive graphics ect. but those
leave the financial app on windows unless you're ready for oracle
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
As an ex-analyst, the key thing to check is "who chose the users surveyed and what were the criteria used to choose them?"
Hamm writes, "It was done by a third-party survey outfit who solicited responses from a pool of qualified business computer users. 'It really isn't self-selecting,' she said."
That's still pretty vague. It could be bad, or it could just be that they hired one of those outfits that puts banner ads up and does surveys if you click on them. There is some selection bias in that but it's not vendor-specific at least.
Now if Microsoft gave Yankee group a list of 50 customers and Yankee (or a third-party subcontractor) surveyed them, you'd definitely get a biased set of results! (While they didn't explicitly rule that out, I doubt even Yankee would stoop that low... but I mention the possibility, if you want to ask more pointed questions and not take their vague and sometimes self-contradictory (self-selected or not?) blandishments at face value.)
More ideally, Yankee Group would survey it's own customers or a group of contacts they've developed/cultivated over time (preferrably not "all the customers of our Windows-oriented research service" however). But I'm not sure Yankee has the end-user business/history to support that.
The second key question to ask is whether the Yankee group received any funding for this specific report (as opposed to subscription funding to receive ongoing research which is standard industry practice) from any vendors. Hamm should have asked this. The comment that "researcher for hire"... "ended a year ago" is rather vague. Who decides A) whether/which topic will be investigated, and B) who has editorial control (or even input?) over the resulting research?
And if you want to ask yet another "interesting question" of an analyst firm, ask them if any of the vendors discussed had input into the final report and what the nature of that input was.
While it is not uncommon for analysts to run papers by vendors so that the analyst doesn't screw up some detail, papers done for hire typically request input from one vendor, but not the others discussed. Review by only one vendor (but not by a competitor, when two are contrasted) is a red flag.
--LP
'Just work' should always be in quotes in my opinion, some of the linux drivers that detect my hardware just do enough to make the thing work, maybe. Things like network cards that don't recognize wake on lan, even if its setup, surround sound cards that only do stereo, etc, printers that understand applescript, hpgl, or hpgl2 directly not supporting that in linux, but can do postscript etc. I know this isn't the fault of linux, but a lot of people see the 'Detected such and such' and think everything is working.
Concepts like mounting drives, Finding the print driver for one of the many possible print servers, best ways to share files, Samba or NFS?, Dealing with RWX RWX RWX based permissions, and groups, writtig shell scripts, the CronTab, Finding drivers and worse installing them, knowing where the logs are and how to read them.
If a sysadmin doesn't understand, or cannot quickly pick up these concepts, then they have no business being a sysadmin.
I like windows for audio production, and I like linux for web development and network administration.
I wouldn't suggest limiting yourself to a Windows Server Environment, and just as well, I wouldn't suggest limiting yourself to a Linux Desktop Environment, but if use both, all of this jibberish seems like pointless bickering!
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
Windows is not a hassle
Yes, it really is a hassle. There are a million things about windows that you've simply grown to accept.
In some ways, Windows is better than Linux. Mac OS X may (perhaps) be better yet. But in simple, fundemental ways, using a computer really, really, *really* sucks.
The Truth about Linux and Windows - Saturday April 23, @04:47PM - Rejected
The above is from my profile page here on /. Apparently they prefer to be a couple of days late with the news.
"Live free or don't."
If you work your way down the Forbes 400 making an x next to the name of each person with an MBA, you'll learn something important about business school. You don't even hit an MBA till number 22, Phil Knight, the CEO of Nike. There are only four MBAs in the top 50. What you notice in the Forbes 400 are a lot of people with technical backgrounds. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell, Jeff Bezos, Gordon Moore. The rulers of the technology business tend to come from technology, not business. So if you want to invest two years in something that will help you succeed in business, the evidence suggests you'd do better to learn how to hack than get an MBA.
(Shamelessly borrowed from Paul Graham)
That's metric tonne, you insensitive clod!
Simple.
Management is about lying about the need for management. It's primate hierarchy in organizational terms.
They therefore love liars who reinforce that lie.
Humans will ALWAYS - ALWAYS - make the wrong decision given two or more options. They will do this to spite the person with the correct option.
Because if that person is "right", then they're "wrong" - and if they're "wrong", they're dead - and that can't be allowed. So they're "right" and the other person is "wrong".
Human psychology is that simple. It's only the EXPRESSION of that psychology that occasionally gets complex.
No manager can make a correct decision because that action by itself conflicts with his primary purpose.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
This Mac zealot doesn't use a mouse. I use a trackball ;-)
The reason Apple stays with the one-button design... those optical bluetooth mice look cooler with their "butonless" look.
Sometimes they do go for form over function, but that's why Logitech is around.
That is absolute nonsense, and furthermore, I can tell you that people with your attitude are the bane of the Help Desk world. Mounting drives is really easy (you add the applet to the taskbar in GNOME... which autodetects it for you anyway). Sharing drives (of course, you don't want to do that, right? You mean sharing individual folders.)? GNOME-SYSTEM-TOOLS fixes this right up for you. Permissions? Seriously, it's not that hard. R is Read. W is Write. X is eXecute. First group is owner, second group is group, last group is everyone else. That's way easier than MS permissions (Modify? "Full" Control? Group Policy? The Fuck?). And when was the last time that Desktop usage forced you to work with shell scripts, or cron, or drivers? And don't even try and cop out with that printing nonsense, printing sucks no matter which platform you're using (except... MAYBE OS X... if your printer is supported). I mean, try printing anything in XP without a real printer driver. Guess what CUPS does?
Imagine this: "Hey everyone, it's your boss, Charlie. I'm sure you've noticed that your computers look a little strange; that's because we've removed Windows and installed Linux. Yes, overnight. Please, nobody panic. For the next 8 hours, we're not going to do any work. Instead, we're going to take the time to learn the Linux equivalents to the Windows apps you're so... fond of. First, THE INTERNET... better known as a Web Browser. It works the same, no worries. Second, WORD... or OpenOffice.org. It also works the same. Thirdly, OUTLOOK (which I'm sure you'll all miss)... which is Evolution here in Linux. And I'm sure you see this coming, it also works the same. Oh... and Instant Messaging, which is GAIM on this side of the fence. Wait... I believe it also works the same."
Maybe this attitude comes from working Help Desk too long, but I'm tired of stupid questions. Really, if you can't take 5 minutes to click around in the menu options (which is what I do... because I frequently have no idea what people are talking about) then you need to take a day and find your brain. I mean, you're worried about TCO? Try the THINKING option, and I guarantee you can kill off 90% of your Support Staff. Why do I suggest it? Because despite the fact that it would cost me my job, I know it's never going to happen.
"So, explain to me how Windows is cost effective, even if you have to hire a 'high-priced consultant'."
Your scenario is one big oversimplification.
The first time there is a power outage and the Linux server won't come back up without a fsck, who's gonna fix it? Joe from accounting? How long will that Linux distro be able to (if it even can) patch itself. 12 months? 18 months? If it can patch itself, how much money do you have to pay for access to the automatic patching? What if a patch doesn't work...or breaks something?
There are all kinds of things besides software that can cost money. Sure the "freeness" of Linux is a good bonus from the get go, but that alone doesn't guarantee any kind of long term cost savings.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
"BTW, If you *need* apps that only exist on one platform, you should probably stick with that platform"
Which is the fundamental mistake for any company that does that.
Sooner or later (unless that app was made directly by IBM or Microsoft or a company on that scale), the company that made that app is going to go bust - or simply stop supporting that app - or replace it with a more expensive version.
Any company that does mission critical work on a proprietary app is going to end up like Linus with BitKeeper.
Better to spend the money now to avoid that fate than have to spend it when you can't afford it later.
It is NOT foolish to do a custom build of a shrinkwrap app. And the more critical the app, the more important it is to do that. Because it restores control to the person who uses that app.
The cost of development is irrelevant (depending on the cash flow needed to support that development). The cost of maintenance is greater, but still not significant if the app has mission-critical importance (obviously you don't rebuild a minor utility that cost you $25). These are bean-counter notions. And bean-counters will always sell you short to save a couple bucks. Nobody running a company should care what the bean-counters say - unless they tell you there's no more revenue and no more profit. Accountants are supposed to tell you how you're doing - not tell you what to do.
It's not hard to find someone to work cheap to build or maintain a custom app - especially today when the IT market sucks. And if your IT department has some notion of quality (oh, wait, forget I said that), then the in-house app is likely to be as good or better than the commercial app - at the very least it will match your needs better. The cost of programmer and system design and maintenance time is small compared to the business benefit of the app.
I realize nobody believes this because it flies against the grain of conventional IT wisdowm.
Sorry - conventional IT wisdom, like all conventional wisdom, is simply wrong.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
"Thus, I know that a server would require a high-paid consultant to set up."
That's funny.
My conclusion would be that you're incompetent (at least at installing Linux.)
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
So it takes a high-priced consultant to recommend a surge protector and/or a UPS?
Sure, you need somebody to patch the machine. There are people who do that remotely for a few bucks a month compared to having someone on site.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
"Linux server won't come back up without a fsck"
Yeah right, and the first time there's a power outage and the Windows system corrupts its hard drive who's going to bring it back up? What's that "well it's never happened on my Windows systems" well I've got news for you - it almost never happens on Linux systems either. You're trying to use an extremely rare problem that could happen in either OS to compare the 2.
" How long will that Linux distro be able to (if it even can) patch itself. 12 months? 18 months?"
Try a few hours at most. Maybe you need to actually install modern Linux distro and see the update mechanisms available before you attempt to criticise it.
"how much money do you have to pay for access to the automatic patching"
Depends on your distro, almost all, including commercial ones (eg. Mandrake, Suse) allow free access to updates. RHEL is about the only one that wants to charge a 'subscription' but if you don't like that then just get a RHEL rebuild such as Centos.
"Sure the "freeness" of Linux is a good bonus from the get go, but that alone doesn't guarantee any kind of long term cost savings"
Agreed, but you don't appear to have much knowledge of Linux and therefore would be in no position to evaluate 'long term cost savings'.
Pre-canned Evolution Links for all those Slashdot holy wars.
That's nice - compare a bare bones Linux install to a full-up VAR installation.
Makes a lot of sense.
There are VARS who will do all that on Linux (assuming the specific apps you mention are available on Linux, which I haven't looked into.)
And the VARS who do that with Windows are JUST as high-priced as ones who do it on Linux - in fact, probably more so since they have to pay for (or charge you) for the Windows server licenses.
And don't forget, Microsoft recommends a DIFFERENT server - i.e., one more license and one more machine cost - for EVERY Windows server type. Now you know why Windows servers have half the performance of Linux servers.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
"And no, I've never successfully gotten ANY Linux install to work on ANY PC"
At $15/hour, you're overpaid.
Try minimum wage next time.
Better yet, go on Welfare.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
So you're saying you need someone on site to patch a windows box?
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
I may never edit the source of a project or fork it. But I still benefit from the fact that others more knowledgeable than me can.
This is the case for a proprietary OS as well.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I suggest you go and do some reading comprehension classes.
Well, I was responding to someone who commented that a basic Linux installn needed a high price consulant. I was simply stating that all I do is click "Next" a few times and its done. There is no magical secret to installing Linux. You need to be competant but the defaults will usually get you up and running in no time. I have not clue what I could charge for what you are asking about.
"Fedora's installer tries to relax you regarding Grub, but most of the time forcing LBA32 is needed or it sits there doing nothing at boot."
What ARE you babbling about?
I installed Fedora Core 3 a couple weeks ago. GRUB works fine.
I've NEVER had a problem with LILO or GRUB booting the system after install. And that's dual booting with Windows.
If you meant LBA48 (greater than 137GB disk support), that's been in the kernel since Red Hat 7.3. (Whereas Windows 2000 below Service Pack 4 will trash your system if you put it on a HD > 137GB.)
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
a rock is a rock regardless of my perception of it
Is it? What is this 'it' you speak of? Is it a rock? Then if 'it' is a rock, and a rock is a rock, what is a rock? Is it a spray painted piece of glass, is it an electrical stimulus into your mind, what you may call a rock may be a tree if that's what people other than you think of as a treem then is a tree no less a rock?
But epistemology? Nothing but a crude hack of several theories to find a middle ground between two opposed theories. There's something strange about trying to justify a middle ground as an excuse to bridge two extreems rather than believe in oth extreem, given they're not mutually exclusive.
>The cost of development is irrelevant (depending on
> the cash flow needed to support that development).
Nice way to invalidate the remainder of the post.
Unless you're a large company, eating the startup cost of writing a large scale custom app is often insane.
"Yeah right, and the first time there's a power outage and the Windows system corrupts its hard drive who's going to bring it back up? What's that "well it's never happened on my Windows systems" well I've got news for you - it almost never happens on Linux systems either. You're trying to use an extremely rare problem that could happen in either OS to compare the 2."
Your right, but it's generally easier to find people to work on Windows than it is to work on Linux.
"Try a few hours at most. Maybe you need to actually install modern Linux distro and see the update mechanisms available before you attempt to criticise it."'
You misunderstood what I said. I meant for how long will the autoupdate work on the particular distro that youa re isntalling. Almost all distros have very short EOL support cycles for their releases. Can you install version x.x of distro A and have it autoupdate itself for say...four years?
"Depends on your distro, almost all, including commercial ones (eg. Mandrake, Suse) allow free access to updates. RHEL is about the only one that wants to charge a 'subscription' but if you don't like that then just get a RHEL rebuild such as Centos."
That's nice, but again - how long do they support a release for? 1 year, 18 months, 2.5 years? IMO,the rapid release cycle of Linux is not a good thing.
"Agreed, but you don't appear to have much knowledge of Linux and therefore would be in no position to evaluate 'long term cost savings'."
YOu're partially right. I don't use Linux - havn't used it in over three years, but I do know enough about it to know that it isn't a magic bullet, like the parent poster describes. I happen to be an avid user of FreeBSD and OpenBSD. I moved to the BSD's long ago, not because I didn't like Linux - just because I really took a liking to the BSD's. Even though I don't spend day after day installing every new Linux distro on the block, my association with the verious *nix communities keeps my updated on what's going on with Linux.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Sure each concept is simple. But then you start adding them together, they become a big learning gap. A job that would take them 2 Minutes to do in Windows would take them 10-20 Minutes to get a handle of adds up and could be very expensive. And doing a google search will take time to. Say one want Linux Permissions but they search for Linux Security Rights, there is a different vocabulary. And a lot of people have lives outside computers and may not have the time or the ambition to study every OS under the sun. They just want to do their job well.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I've never taken any "philosophy" classes.
However, I do question just about everything.
I said he missed the point becuase his rebuttal did not address what was just posted, but went off on a tangent and another side-subject.
"what is a rock? Is it a spray painted piece of glass, is it an electrical stimulus into your mind, what you may call a rock may be a tree if that's what people other than you think of as a treem then is a tree no less a rock?"
Again - look up a bit of epistiemology. If it is not a rock, and is instead a painted piece of glass...then it is not a rock. Fairly simple. If it is a rock, then any stupid claim that the two of us don't agree on what "rock" means is moot; what it is, it is regardless what I percieve it to be. It's a rather simple concept - everything is exactly what it is.
Middle ground? Epistemology doesn't try to answer any questions. You're confusing it with something else, which is understandable given your situation.
you've gone to school in general. Dewey was very intent in mucking about with the education system - not just philosophy classes, but all classes.
Yes, 'cause when it goes down, you won't have network access...:-)
Bwahahahahahah!!!
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Well you are thinking like a Linux Administrator. Think like a Windows Administrator. Ok fine you got the device mounted. and Ok I can see it GNOME, but I am configuring a program to access files off that drive. Where should I point it to, D:\ Nope, /CDROM not quite. /mnt/cdrom bingo! Or perhaps it is someplace else? You could yell at the guy and tell him to do a "df" to see where the drives are mounted but the concept that these drive are in different spots are forgen to him and if he puts another drive in the system he will be loss on trying to make it work in the right spot.
.BAT files and they are still out there. as well as the scheduler. They are used in makeshift backup solutions and sometimes running a ported Unix app easier for windows. So that is figuring out Cron and some other shell scripting language. Standard Desktop user adds a new 5 button firewire mouse, or more common some engineering device, and now it needs drivers I Guess they need to install drivers. Ok I found the driver for my device and lets check out the install. ./Configure; make; sudo make install then you will need to put these modules in the kernel and recompile it. (Granted most drivers are easer to install), In windows I just hit the setup Icon.
Ok as a windows administrator I want to allow Joe Smow from accounting and Ed Edwared from engineering to have exclusive access to these files. In windows I can just add their name to the list. But now what you need to add a group for an exception seems very bogging to him. As well it assumes that I figured out that he needs to add a group, thinking a group is just overkill.
Shell Scripts for a desktop user. In windows it it like
For the Next 8 hours with how many employees that are being paid how much. Lets say we have 30 employees at an average of $18 an hour. Wow that is about the cost of Windows Licenses for them. And you how much money is loss from a full day of down time. And you expect after these 8 hours people will be fully adjusted to Linux, Experience tells me otherwise, I have seen people after taking windows training at their own time still having trouble with the information they were taught. If it isn't on there desktop it is considered to be an advanced option and shouldn't be touched. These people are not stupid, They just want to do their job and don't care about computers to go beyond what they need to do.
Now we have OpenOffice. sure it imports 99% of your word file. Guess what happens when that 1% hits you. Or that other 10% that OpenOffice.org doesn't tell you about not being setup just right. And having important documents displayed all wrong and rejected by the person you send it back to because everything is out of order. Now they have firefox open and they try to open a corporate Intranet site with an activeX component, which the company paid a lot of money to have. Opps it is not working. tough luck we need to hire an other programmer to remake all out intranet sites in php or Java.
I think you should find an other job then Help Desk support because you don't sound like a good one. It is not about thinking it is about emotion. People are scared about computers they don't know how they work and they cant really see them work. They know the consequences of a major mistake could be big, and they are considered fragile. So they are not willing to explore the system to see how things work because they don't want to break it. So they will not go clicking random pictures and see what happens they will do what they know and thats it. If there is a problem except for risking breaking something and getting in more trouble they will call you the Help Desk guy to walk them threw the problem. I know it is frustrating because they will say that they did do something which they didn't and if they don't know what you mean they will not loose face and they will get aggressive or bluff their way threw the support. It is emotional and not Educational
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I guess check boxes are too complicated for you. Perhaps Windows should pop up a message box for every update?
-]Phreak Out[-
"1 year, 18 months, 2.5 years?"
r ). Suse for 5 years also (http://www.novell.com/products/linuxenterpriseser ver/maintenance/lifecycle.html).
7 years for RHEL. Mandrake appears to support their corporate server for up to 5 years (http://www.mandriva.com/business/corporate-serve
True, you have to 'subscribe' (ie pay) for all these long release cylce distros.
I don't think you were very clear with that point in your 1st post - it sounded like you were saying that Linux couldn't 'patch itself' and that the only way to get updates was by subscriptions.
Pre-canned Evolution Links for all those Slashdot holy wars.
Because it might make things easier.
b) Why you cannot use remote access without a GUI. (ssh)
Because the GUI tools might be better.
c) Why if you really need graphical applications running on the server you cannot use remote access. (ssh+X forwarding, vnc, rdesktop, etc)
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but doing this is no different (from a resources perspective) than sitting in front of the machine running it.
The parent post is correct. A GUI - particularly an idle one - is not a burden on "system resources" on any remotely modern system. You may well be able to make up other arguments against a GUI on a server (although personally I can't think of any showstoppers), but the "system resources" one has been irrelevant for 5 - getting on to 10 - years. Just let it go.
If you're worried about long-term availability of updates, then use Debian. They're kind of famous for crawling along. You can still be running Potato from four years ago if you want. Sarge will likely still be getting updates in three or four years, as well, and, after that, there won't likely be very many bugs left at all.
Put identity in the browser.
Not to nit pick, but when installing from source like this, you wouldn't put the module into the kernel and recompile the kernel. The module was already compiled through the '.configure;make;make install'. If anything, put the module into the /etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel file so it autoloads during boot. No kernel recompile necessary :)
Having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool.
That's hibernate on Win2K. I can't get XP to do anything correctly (not even power off, as mentioned above).
And yet you have enough time to post n posts to slashdot.org stating that you do not have enough time to learn a new operating system. Maybe you should ponder the phrase "Time Management" If you were investing this time in improving your business rather than whining about an OS, you may have gotten another customer instead of turning this pet owner off your product.
Honestly, keep the system you have, but don't be surprised if you are outmarketed by someone who can afford the consultant to set them up and walk away.
A sig is placed here
To display how futile
English Haiku is
Funny, just installed another touchscreen system today running under XP and it seems to be fine. You sure it's not your one button touch screen? ;)
Well we were talking about business usage for a while there. Your home user can't install windows either. As for business use: if you can't properly install an operating system (any operating system, and more appropriately every operating system) then you should probably stay at home and let professionals do the computer work. Linux is overwhelmingly more secure than any Microsoft product has ever been, or ever will be. It comes more secure than Microsoft based systems, so even if no-one enhances the security, Linux systems are still rock solid secure. As for businesses not learning about security: if they don't know then they haven't wanted to know, and haven't bothered to find out. Security Enhanced Linux was written by the US. National Security Agency (http://www.nsa.gov/selinux). It's part of the core kernel now. "Extras" like "Fort Knox Linux" are sponsored by the U.S. Navy (Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego. ) see: http://fortknox.sourceforge.net/. I tend to trust these people more than Enderlie and DiDio (who did not understand the source code she was looking at). Go ahead and decieve yourself, even tell lies to yourself if you like, but when the rubber meets the road, Linux is good because the prime motive for it's developers is good software. Microsoft will always come second rate because the prime motive of it's management is money. "Bug fixing hurts the balance sheet" isn't something you hear in the Linux camp. Neither is "Ship it today, and we'll fix it on the next release", nor is "We don't want it done right, we want it done fast!" Go ahead and deny it, but you know it's true. This is a game that Microsoft cannot win. They might not die quickly, but they are terminal, that's a certainty.
that's a pretty foolish reason for abandoning an entire operating system.
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You can make the same statment about alot of things in either windows or linux. If you get new hardware, there probably won't be any drivers supported in either windows or linux and this is the crux of the argument. Because you found a network card that works in windows without a driver doesn't mean that a new one won't require a driver. It is about the timing of the release and the age of the card. Even things like wether or not the manufactuer paid microsoft to include it in the install (thru the whql testing) has to be considered here.
All in all, a driver would have probably been developed at some time for the wirless card. The question i would ask is "why didn't you check to see if the car was supported by linux before getting it?>" Another question would be "is there actualy a driver but you couldn't figure out how to use it?" Most wireless network cards use a set of comunication chips and the drivers are clasified by the chip name in linux were you find driver by the card manufacturers and type in windows. There are some wireless cards that didn't work and i don't know if that was ever changed or not so it is possible there isn't a driver. However i think it is still possible that there is a driver but you don't know about it or aren't asociating a broadcom chip with a linksys wireless card.
Note: i pulled those names out of the air to ilistrate how the differences can be in driver names. Linksys probably doesn't use a broadcom chip or broadcom might not even make a wireles chip. Often a company produces a product based on other established chips and make them work better or to thier "niche". linux just labels to the chip t o cover more then one card were windows drivers tend to be card specific.
the fucking CD key alone.
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Actualy if you are running webmin, you can click click clcik the start up services and turn them off form there. (for those that are cli skeered)
are they hiring?
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ISA is relatively new, every windows admin that's been around for more than a couple years uses checkpoint. Solaris people using checkpoint are fairly rare, most shops that buy sun also buy cisco, and that's who they get their firewalls from. Running solaris nowadays is rare enough, much less using it for a firewall.
Having a linux version was retarded to begin with, linux comes with a firewall (I will admit that it sucks nuts to actually try to use, but if you are bright enough to be using linux, you can use openbsd for your firewall).
Almost all the major acounting and POS vendors have *nix backends availible. I just set up an accpac system running advantage db for linux and the POS addon with the same amount of funding as i would if i had to install it on a windows server. The difference is I can combine the POS and ACCounting on the same box, I don't need to buy (2) extra windows server licenses and i don't have to contend with windows causing the same problem that creap up at the other site i work with.
I'm sure there are goign to be some "linux issues" but right now it just works. Kind of like the windows installs. Maybe in 1 or 2 years it will still just work instead of the problems that happen with the windows server. Of course the advantage bata base is runing smooth, it is actualy windows that has the problems.
Have you tried any of the accounting packages on web services like http://sourceforge.net/projects/ck-ledger? There are a couple under there. eGroupware is lining up with accounting and ERP solutions like this, so take a look at them.
Put identity in the browser.
you know, this is really over the top. a GUI on a server is just *stupid*, assuming you know how to use the CLI.
i've been following your posts, and fine, linux was too difficult for you. that said, you did try installing it several times. that's actually encouraging - it shows you at least have a nagging curiosity about the OS. linux is getting easier to use all the time. try a new distro every now and then until you hit the particular distro at the particular degree advancement that happens to be in your comfort zone.
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huh? i searched for CBT on google and found mostly "cock-and-ball torture". i didn't get it until i tried to set up cross-platform single-signon on a linux box, and then it made sense.
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I would not tell you to install Linux in your operation. It seems clear that what you have is working for you, and you don't have the interest or inclination to change. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
//c just last year! Won't they be in for a surprise when they have to replace that system. If they remain in business.
That being said:
Your requirements are simple, but I would not necessarily use a free accounting/POS package. It doesn't sound like you are using a free solution either. A question though; when is the last time you paid for an upgrade, maintenance fee, or new package from your POS retail software? How much did it cost? I find that many mom & pop small businesses pay for POS software once, and never expect to have to pay again. I have seen a single register business running on an Apple
I have only been investigating POS packages for *2 whole days* of my spare time in the evenings, and I have seen many packages that (at least claim to) easily fit your bill. In fact many of these companies have Windows versions as well, but advise Linux for stability.
You said "...and works with all standard point of sale software." I think you meant hardware, and yes, many of these packages support "standard" POS hardware. To be fair, many of these packages would prefer that you switch to PC-based cash registers running their terminal software, but here I empathize with the small business owner and the existing infrastructure.
I used to sell POS systems, and one day installs for single or dual cash register shops was the rule. A couple hours install, and 4-6 hours tweaking and training (the owner, on all the ins and outs of the software typically.) I did a pet store on a Saturday with business in full swing around me. The only interruption was switching from one register (non-computerized) to the new POS-integrated terminal cashbox.
What you ask for is very technically possible, but again, unless YOU feel a compelling need to change, none of us will be able to talk you into it. Nor should we. As for your challenge, I cannot meet it today. I am sure that it can be met. If I had my own POS business again, what you describe would be *EXACTLY* what I would be shooting to fill.
And to be frank, the frugal nature of the small business owner is why I quit selling POS. I cannot sell a small business owner something they think they do not need, and the profit is not worth the time required to change the shopkeep's mind. I sold more computers to small businesses than POS systems because I would try to sell a POS system that was computerized and they wouldn't bite on the POS, but thought they needed a computer so it was an easy sale!
--
Dreaming of electric sheep
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." --Twain or Disraeli (google for more info)
"Running solaris nowadays is rare enough"
Heh. Yeah, Solaris is *so* rare.
Generally, if I want a decent firewall, I go with Netscreen products.
One shop I worked in (Netscape) had tons of Sun gear, but the firewalls certainly weren't Cisco - they were Checkpoint FW-1 on the Nokia IPSO platform.
I agree 100%.
Windows appologists are really fond of saying stuff like "my hardware didn't work with linux so I gave up on (GNU/)linux", whereas it makes just as much sense to say "that hardware doesn't support (GNU/)linux, so I gave up on the hardware."
I have seen someone try out Ubuntu on a Laptop, and declare almost gleefully that the win-modem or whatever wasn't detected. I got the impression he was actually relieved that he could give up on it. It gave him an excuse to do nothing. This is the same guy who prides himself on being able to fix really tricky problems under Windows. I guess he doesn't want to say goodbye to all that useless Windows-centric knowledge. The reality is that he knew very well when he acquired the laptop that the on-board modem would be a problem for GNU/Linux, so in a way it was just a self-fulfilling prophesy.
"The more you know about Windows, the less you know about computers".
Your point is half correct.
The point about GNU/Linux is that is is based on UNIX. If you look at 'every OS under the sun', you will find that most of the real contenders are UNIX-like. You are absolutely correct in saying that there is a learning curve associated with learning GNU/Linux, but having learned the stuff you mentioned, you are now in a strong position to also administer Solaris, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, QNX, and so on. All these operating systems, and more besides, share a huge common base of concepts and toolsets. Windows, on the other hand is like an antisocial kid at a party playing 'dickhead in the corner'. 'Dickhead' is all caught up in being difficult and different, whilst everyone else gets on with being normal, enjoying the party, and asking "who invited the dickhead".
"The more you know about Windows, the less you know about computers."
Firstly, thank you for your excellent essay on the ramifications of vendor lock-in.
Maybe you can also explain to me why USA is the only country on the planet that still uses the Emperial system of weights and measures.
You have raised a lot of good points, and I especially liked your last paragraph where you talk about the psychology of the user. Much of your essay was about how Windows works differently from every other OS, and uses secret file formats that are incompatible by design. You also dismiss the fact that Open Office works 99% of the time and focus instead on the fact that the world will come to an end when you hit the 1%. You talk about the fact that users think computers are fragile and don't understand them, so they phone up the Help Desk and get a counselling session. You raise lots of points, different scenarios, all to prove that you cannot - simply cannot - ever ever ever move away from Microsoft.
Have you ever heard of the "Yes but.." game? It is where someone presents with a problem, and then responds to every proposed solution with "Yes but.." Have you heard of the "Can do" attitude? It is where someone sees a problem as something to be solved.
It seems to me that you have a lot of experience in the IT world. You seem to know both Windows paradigms and UNIX paradigms. You also seem to understand the inner workings of the stereotypical user. You write well, and you're probably intelligent. Maybe if you shut your eyes for a minute or so, took some deep breathes, and imagined a better world, things could start to look a little different. Maybe you would start to see solutions instead of problems.
Okay, open your eyes again. Back to the grind. Back to the 'real' world...
...and is a far better (read mature) solution than Active Directory is.
q s. html
But there is a cost for that product (USD2.00 per head), but if you buy an edirectory enabled application you may be entitled to 100000 seats gratis.
http://www.novell.com/products/edirectory/sysre
Linux System Specs:
* One of the following:
o SUSE LINUX Enterprise Server 9 (IR3 required)
o SUSE LINUX Enterprise Server 8
o Red Hat Linux 7.3, 8.0, 9.0, or Red Hat Advanced Server 2.1
Note: Ensure that the latest glibc patches are applied from Red Hat Errata on Red Hat systems.
* 128 MB RAM minimum
* 90 MB of disk space for the eDirectory server
* 25 MB of disk space for the eDirectory administration utilities
* 74 MB of disk space for every 50,000 users
* Ensure that gettext is installed
...but both of these are clear cases of 'if you know what you're doing, you can use Linux, if you don't better stick to Windows'.
;-)
That doesn't make either one any better. The Windows user will probably need to patch and piss about - that's the cost of using an OS which has concentrated on 'Just Works' to the exclusion of security - while the Linux user will forget where the box actually is
Justin.
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
I've worked for businesses where $550 is two days turnover.
Sure, that business had problems too, but was sustainable with that level of turnover - if you don't spend it all on consultants to setup systems.
~Cederic
Neither is Windows.
Everything dies... eventually.
Plus Knoppix detected PCMCIA on my DESKTOP computer!!! I don't have any PCMCIA slots lol. I haven't had any real hardware detection problems with Windows, only Linux.
What makes a hammer different to a rock? While a "hammer" is a device specifically made for hammering perhaps, a hammer could also be used to wedge open doors. So what makes that hammer not a door wedge? What is it about that hammer makes it specifically a hammer as opposed to a door wedge (or whatever else you might use a hammer for other than hammering), and a rock not a hammer despite it having perfectly fine hammering capabilities?
Your right, but it's generally easier to find people to work on Windows than it is to work on Linux.
:) )
;) (though for servers that might be just what you want). remember also the possibility to upgrade to next release if you are not satisfied with that 5 years old one (or if it reaches eol).
:)
depends. lately it's easier to find qualified linux support person than windows - and you know why ? because they do most of their job remotely. reboots (which might result in some thing required for networking not coming up) are very rare, everything else you do from any other location. as a result supporting linux systems is a lot easier.
You misunderstood what I said. I meant for how long will the autoupdate work on the particular distro that youa re isntalling. Almost all distros have very short EOL support cycles for their releases. Can you install version x.x of distro A and have it autoupdate itself for say...four years?
as other posters already mentioned, most distros have reasonable life cycles - and you can choose ones that definitely will be supported for a long period of time and will require little patching (debian & friends). additionally, most distros can be upgraded between releases without much hassle (for example, it's possible to upgrade slackware through releases - or just stick with current all the time
That's nice, but again - how long do they support a release for? 1 year, 18 months, 2.5 years? IMO,the rapid release cycle of Linux is not a good thing.
again - choose debian. look at their stable version. some... most call it slightly outdated
YOu're partially right. I don't use Linux - havn't used it in over three years, but I do know enough about it to know that it isn't a magic bullet, like the parent poster describes. I happen to be an avid user of FreeBSD and OpenBSD. I moved to the BSD's long ago, not because I didn't like Linux - just because I really took a liking to the BSD's. Even though I don't spend day after day installing every new Linux distro on the block, my association with the verious *nix communities keeps my updated on what's going on with Linux.
there's no such thing as magic bullet
but fast development pace (that you seem to dislike though) means that there have been a lot of changes in last 3 years (especially as more and more companies use linux, it improves more rapidly. and everybody benefits from the progress).
Rich
"depends. lately it's easier to find qualified linux support person than windows - and you know why ? because they do most of their job remotely. reboots (which might result in some thing required for networking not coming up) are very rare, everything else you do from any other location. as a result supporting linux systems is a lot easier."
;) (though for servers that might be just what you want). remember also the possibility to upgrade to next release if you are not satisfied with that 5 years old one (or if it reaches eol)."
:)
The fact is Linux experts still cost more than Windows experts in many areas, because they are in short supply - especially in rural areas like mine.
"again - choose debian. look at their stable version. some... most call it slightly outdated
Sorry - I alreay have a favorite Linux distro. It's called FreeBSD.
Seriously though, if I ever decide to use Linux for something, Debian will be on my short-list of distros to consider.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
The fact is Linux experts still cost more than Windows experts in many areas, because they are in short supply - especially in rural areas like mine.
:)
:)
:)
well, i know a couple of linux experts that live in one country and support several small companies in other countries. this way cheaper labour (for example, from ex-ussr countries) is easily exported to ones where support usually costs 3-10 times more.
actually good windows support person will cost you the same if not more than a good linux support person... it's just that "point-click-whoops-reinstall" kind of "admins" have overrun windows support market
and as soon as first real problem show up, costs of lost productivity can easily surpass costs of qualified personnel.
Sorry - I alreay have a favorite Linux distro. It's called FreeBSD.
hh
yes, some hp education materials also mentioned freebsd as a linux distribution.
i mentioned debian only because of their famous long release cycle - i'm running slackware, and mostly -current. i've been upgrading my workstations since version 8, i think - have run just a couple times in some small glitches with x - underlying base has been really stable. i guess if you want both bleeding edge and long upgradeability, this is one of the best solutions.
Rich
People only think that Windows installs are easy because MS and developers at huge clearinghouses like Dell and Gateway have been working together and refining the installation system for ten years.
In six short years, I've turned a Debian install into something that I can do faster than a WinXP install and almost as quickly as a Win98SE install reaching the same level of functionality with both systems. Not bad considering Debian is v3.0 with several thousand volunteer contributors and Microsoft is better than 20 years old with a multitrillion dollar budget and tens of thousands of employeers.
You fail to understand the issue. No-one is telling you to switch your existing applications and solutions to Linux now, this minute. What I am advising is you need to look at other solutions to give you the edge - being on the ball with new technologies can give you the edge, not necessarily one particular technology. If you're not making the time to look then you might miss the application/opportunity that will save you a fortune. If your role includes being the IT guy, then you are not doing it properly if you aren't keeping an eye on other technologies. As I stated, my job is Linux based. I keep up to speed on Windows. Why? Because it's my job to know what will work best for which solutions.
Yes, I do agree with you that a tree falling in a forest without me hearing it, is still just the same (Some people argue the opposite)
Actually, from a technical standpoint, if a tree falls, and there's nothing around to hear it, there is no sound, as sound waves require both a sender and a receiver before it can be considered a sound.
My sig can beat up your sig.
Sound is defined as vibrations. If there are vibrations, there is sound.
Its not a rock, and its not a herring. Its a shubbery. Get it right.
My sig can beat up your sig.
Bzzzt. Sound waves are vibrations. Sound is what you hear.
My sig can beat up your sig.
What you actually hear are sound waves
I agree with that. Most of the other modern OSs are Unix based. And learning linux will give you a curve that allows you to operate most OS's out there. But the problem is the cost of learning the other OS's is pritty high.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
It took me 2 hours to get my ATI Radeon 9800 Pro to work on two screens with 3D acceleration. To say it does not work is not true. It is simply a kernel rebuild with the dri drivers unconfigured. The dri drivers you build yourself.
.. I have access to MDK10.x commercial edition at work and there it works out of the box.
Also
Nvidia is as you say a 2 minute operation.
I really have another userid as well
Kiss that freedom goodbye when upper management co-opts your dream by forcing you to use your least-favorite distro and regulating which apps will and will not get installed. Goodbye grep, hello Outlook For Linux.
You are so correct it's scary. Where I work, the GPL is seen as the work of the devil. All the lawsuits going around have succeeded in making the corporate world scared sh*tless about the GPL. So, when it comes to free software, they would rather pay a hefty sum for a "shrink wrapped" copy where some other company takes some liability rather than use OSS as it was intended. Sad, very sad.
!hoD
Lots of old (and not-so-old) hardware won't work in a newer version of Windows. I've had several cases where a hardware vendor spent a year or more promising drivers for the latest version of Windows any day now, while selling the same functions with drivers in their current product.
I've installed about 10 copies of Linux, mostly Mandrake. I've had 2 hardware compatability problems that weren't solved trivially--One was onboard sound (solved by adding a soundcard) and one was a laptop modem, and the modem wouldn't work under Windows 2000, either.
However, the other thing it does is wipe all the competitor's software from the machine. Who knows? Maybe that is the main goal. Installing applications on MS-Windows is neither easy nor automatable like on Linux, BSD or OS X. I'm surprised (ok, more disappointed than surprised) that this hasn't come up in any anti-trust investigations.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Reading your post makes me think that Windows is a toy.
All the things you listed are what you would NEED in a mature operating system.
Arguably, lots of the items you mentioned are hard to configure, where on Windows they are easy.
But I'd still rather have a tougher time setting up a workstation or server and wind up with something stable and solid than install Windows quickly, only to spend months if not years aggravated on the shoddiness of Microsoft's product.
In today's Internet climate, it's folly to run Windows. The number of problems it has caused has grown exponentially.
Maybe if Linux had been the defacto standard from day one, things would have progressed slower at first, but by now, we'd be a lot further along, never having to have lost months, weeks and years to the vagaries of a toy operating system like Windows.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
from the second paragraph,
"My beef with Yankee started April 1. That's when I got an advance look at the press release announcing the study..."
I did just set up a PXE server with Slackware (first time I've ever used PXE) and it was quite a bit easier, and has much more flexible functionality, than doing the same thing on a Windows server.
Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
Try SuSE, trust me, Novell is doing it right, but SuSE has always been good.
Cheap storage VM.
All I have is a simple SDL (i.e. for X or framebuffer) file browser that can take keyboard, mouse, or joystick input to navigate a directory tree (with large text for TV out), and have a very basic xml-specified file association scheme (i.e. to say to use python module X to play *.[aA][vV][iI]) Wasn't written for general use and wanted to have a single joystick button configuration, so you have to have a python wrapper for your media player, which I wrote for zsnes and mplayer... In other words just generally crude code.
It was useful for me because my directory structure was logical and I didn't want to have a flat view or have to create a database to describe what I already categorized using filesystem structure. Also, file managers are not designed for TV-out/remote/joystick operation, and had more functionality than I wanted (i.e., the deletion, removing) when a file browser made more sense.
If this sounds relevant, I'll post the code to a sourceforge project and let you know in this thread.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
what it is, it is regardless what I percieve it to be. It's a rather simple concept
Exactly the half-baked excuse that is epistiemology.
What is anything other than perception? Scientific method does not deny this, nor does the most hard core abstract philosophy. Yet epistiemology searches for a solution which works out to be no solution. Assumption is a better word and saves several thousand people thinking they have made a wonderous philosophical discovery.
To deny perception in favour of an absolute is several steps beyond the concepts of epistiemology. Poor excuse for someone who can't be bothered a bit of deeper thinking, at least that's my perception...
Solaris got eaten alive by linux and BSD. Sun chose to be obsolete, and lots of people recognize this. Compare solaris usage in lets say, 1998-2000, with solaris usage now. I don't quite get why you think working at netscape several years ago demonstrates that solaris isn't common now.
Well, yeah, more places use Linux now, but that doesn't mean that Solaris is obsolete or "rarely used."
Sorry, but you're the one that's out of touch if you think that.
Did you know that the internal Hotmail infrastructure is all Sun boxes running Solaris & Sendmail? Many banks won't even touch Linux, and Solaris is still very much in control.
It pretty much biobild down to "the right tool for the job."
No, hotmail is not running on sun boxes using solaris or sendmail. It was running freebsd and qmail, until it was (mostly) upgraded to windows.
I dunno how stupid the banks are in the states, but up here they are very stupid. They use mainly windows, but yet all the major national banks use linux to some extent, and several have actively moved away from all commercial unixes, some to linux, many to windows.
I never said solaris was obsolete, I said its rarely used nowadays, and that's reality. Nostalgic bullshit about netscape in the 90's doesn't change that.
And the right tool for the job is exactly why solaris is being replaced. The only reason to use solaris is when you have a 96 CPU machine with 512GB of RAM from Sun. Solaris is the right tool for the job then. I'm sure both people with such machines are enjoying solaris, but that huge massive majority of people that don't need such machines, also don't need solaris.
To some degree. People working for a company are fewer in number and more likely to stop programming "when it works," because that's all they get paid for. On the other hand, open-source developers are larger in number and more generous.
So the corporate developer is thinking "how fast can I get my to-do list done?" while the open-source developer is thinking "how good can I make this and what else could I add to make it better?"
Another key difference is that corporations spend lots of money doing research to decide what kind of features people like. Wouldn't it make more sense to ask us directly? Well, yes. That's what the open-source community does.
"It's not obvious to people that Microsoft's only using him for disinformation, not information."
I guess I'm not a person, then.
--
Help me win a free iPod or I'll blow your fucking brains out.
...thanks to a lot of cool, smart, good-hearted people, i can eliminate proprietary software from my life. in fact, i've done just that.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
"No, hotmail is not running on sun boxes using solaris or sendmail. It was running freebsd and qmail, until it was (mostly) upgraded to windows."
Yes, it is. I hate to break it to you, but it is. There are Sun boxes everywhere. Most of the WebTV (MSNTV) infrastructure is also Sun/Solaris, although they are working to move that over to Windows. I just finished a 6 month contract with Microsoft at their nice shiny data center in San Jose.
Not one single FreeBSD box in the place. Actually, that's not true.. there are 6, but they're owned by the NSA and are in their own cage.
It's not reality that Solaris is "rarely used." Sorry dude, but you're just way out of touch.
End of story.
I believe that what we have here is a classic case of blind people explaining to other blind people what things look like using references to light.
Making stuff up is a good way to make your point. I didn't say there were freebsd machines there, I said it USED TO RUN FREEBSD, until MS bought it, and in 2000 started moving it over to windows. Pretending solaris was ever involved only makes you look stupid.
I know there are old out of touch places that still run solaris, and there are literally HUNDREDS of times more places not running solaris. That would equal rarely used if you were capable of rational thought.
But they are too stupid to read after breaking the shrinkwrap that the company says you alone are responsable for all issues and dont talk to them since by installing the software you agree to absolve them of anything/everything.
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
No, you've got it the wrong way around, most /. users have linux installed so that they can be all "non-conformist" and feel like they have a cause.