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Wine Now Has Big-Time Lawyers On Its Side
Roblimo writes "For years there's been fear that the Wine Project would get sued by Microsoft at some point, and this fear has kept IBM and other major free software-using companies from participating openly in it. Now the Software Freedom Law Center, headed by Columbia University law professor Eben Moglen, is offering free legal services to Wine (and other FOSS projects) to allay corporate fears and head off potential lawsuits."
From all of us, thanks.
-Jesse
Nothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
Ironically, this might be exactly what will trigger lawsuits against wine.
Microsoft: "Hey, they have backing now, we should go after them"
"He said another big SFLC benefit will be increased knowledge of open source legal issues not only for software developers but also for attorneys."
"A lawyer's task is often coming up to speed on new issues," he said. "The Software Freedom Law Center will be an incredibly useful resource because it will have a track record of giving advice on a nonprofit basis."
A lawyer's task is also to make a name for them and to make some profit.
A few smart lawyers could make a killing and a name. It would be nice if they actually cared about the issues.
It's great for them to actually try to defend themselves. When Microsoft sues most people, they crumble like breadsticks at Olive Garden. (Note the reference to Italian food and wine.)
My question is "what's their interest?".
I don't think this is a bad thing, just curious.
Is the free software movement gaining enough public exposure that helping it is seen as contributing to the public good?
Are we approaching a tipping point in the perception of FOSS?
here's hoping.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Isn't the real fear for businesses (IBM and other free software using companies) is getting entangled in long, lengthy and technical litigation (see SCO v. Everyone) which can still (and does) happen no matter how great of representation someone has?
take the long way around it.. kill software patents and this would never be needed. or MS could sponsor Wine.. that is something that i wouldn't mind seeing..
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
Sure...I might not choose to run Windows, but that doesn't mean I won't chosoe to run Office or something else from Microsoft that Wine will enable. I run a Linux Desktop at work but use CrossOver to run Office, and at home I have to use Wine for some of my kids games. I think Microsoft would say "well, we might not get all of their business, but we'll take what we can get." From a business standpoint, that would seem to make more sense. But then again, we're talking about Microsoft.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
Because we all know Microsoft can't afford lawyers.
Surely MS haven't sued simply because they can see no legal grounds to do so. Otherwise they would have used this against Lindows.
If this group has any cash at all, MS is likely to try to seperate them from it.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
Not trolling here, and neither AIAL (am I a lawyer), but can Wine be sued for reverse engineering (definition may vary) Windows APIs/functionality under the DMCA?
From what we've seen in the past, even something as simple/straightforward like pressing the shift key can be construed as "intentionally breaking copy protection mechanisms" by sue-happy companies.
Is reverse engineering document formats (OpenOffice), OS APIs (Wine), illegal under the DMCA, or can it be spun as such?
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
I must admit that I've found wine convenient before, but doesn't it seem to be "anti-linux" to use a product in order to use closed-source Windows produts? The best example that comes to mind is MS Office, which many people probably use WINE for.
I wonder why Microsoft wouldn't actually PARTICIPATE in this project, or even write a low-cost version of it's own to (yes, I'm going to say it on Slashdot) sell.
Sure, it's kind of stabbing it's main flagship product in the back, but isn't that what their "Windows Lite" for the Asian markets do?
Since Indian companies are creating little cheap Linux laptops/computers, Asian companies are selling little cheap Linux computers, why would Microsoft not sell a $35 add-on for Linux, tightly registration controlled (Yes, I said that, too) that allows Microsoft-compiled applications to run on Linux.
Don't jump on me for saying Microsoft should write for Linux. Of course they should. It's unfathomable that they DONT support Linux. Heck, even monolithic old NOVELL is supporting their products on the triad of main OS'es now. Linux, MS-WIN and Mac. They're even migrating Netware to a Linux base.
= Grow a brain...
Is that really the case that IBM and "other big companies" did not get involved with Wine because they feared litigation? Can anyone provide a source on this please?
"Man what a jip, false advertising!"
I thought this story was about internet wine sales finally being legalized!
Does anyone seriously think IBM are overly concerned about being sued by Microsoft if they contributed to wine. The most likely reason they dont is because its just not interesting form them, just like its not interesting for most companies.
Would someone like to post list of FOSS projects that have been killed due to litigation, or even threat of litigation. I assume this list must be quite lengthy given the amount slashdotters bang on about it.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Hear that? That's the sound of Microsoft shaking in its boots. Really! Can you hear it?
Yeah, me neither.
I'm sorry, that's rude, but the big problem with lawsuits isn't just having one thrown at you, it's the long and drawn-out process of having to see it all the way through to the end. Forget about the merits of the case, if you've got a lawsuit coming, and you're small, you're a hell of a lot less worried about a guilty verdict and a hell of a lot more worried about going bankrupt, because in the big time lawyers prey on fears of the latter more than the former.
If Microsoft wants to sue, they're going to do it whether or not there's a bunch of lawyers working pro bono on the case. You'd need an entire army of tech-minded geeks engaging in "open source law" (in quotes not to refer to open source software, but to "open source journalism", which was a pretty horrible catch-phrase but analogous to this situation...). In which case, maybe this dept could act as a sort of marshalling station.
But still, if they were thinking about dropping the gauntlet before, they're not going to be deterred now.
I would have thought that IBM etc. don't get involved because it's better to produce your own applications than reproduce the 'chasing a moving target' scenario which was the exact thing that killed OS/2.
maybe they will help out the people at VLC? It would be a shame to see such a great OS project die because they can not afford to have a lawyer
I applaud this effort, but I think people should also look at the larger picture.
We need to think about representation in the government. Lawyers can defend within the boundaries of the law. But, what laws will they have to fight? What laws will protect them?
From patent law to the fight for telecommunications control there are important decisions being made by our government. I think that there are a lot of special interests being served. The OSS movement needs a voice in Washington and even at the state level.
I really hate seeing so many industry-driven bills going before congress. Many decisions will affect the way you design software, use the internet, and even watch television. There are a lot of college grads who can't immediately finding work. Send them out to represent the needs and desires of the OSS community.
First, he is thinking that if a suit would come up, a counter suit would follow, and legal fees would be paid if the counter suit won. Secondly, a free lawyer is worth what you paid, he has nothing to loose, but you do. The non-adaption of wine by IBM is not about free lawyers, I think they can afford a real one.
Thanks to Wine for making sure Windows programs dominate the Linux desktop
While I understand your argument, it DOES also make switching easier. I use wine (actually cxoffice) on my gentoo box. It allowed me to switch from windows quickly and fairly easily. As time goes on and I find OSS projects that I like to use instead of the windows app under wine I switch to them. There are still some that I haven't found replacments that I like for so I use the windows apss. There are a number of windows apps i have stopped using for OSS replacments. If it wern't for cxoffice i would have had to switch all my programs at once, which would have been a huge task, perhapse large enough to make me think it was just easier to deal with windows then to make the switch.
So WINE now has free legal representation. Microsoft has tens of billions of dollars and high priced lawyers. Hey folks, here's a bit of comparison: Bill's probably spending more on XBOX360 than the government of Canada did on its yearly budget!
Saying this is a david vs goliath situation isn't even close to accurate.
------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
Dumb question here... but didn't Wine pre-date the DMCA anyhow? Is there some grandfathering?
Suppose you wanted to call any reverse engineering illegal (shudder!) -- if that happened before the DMCA and now the project is just in maintence mode, can the DMCA still apply? I'd hope not.
1. IBM has no lawyers?
2. IBM is scared of Microsoft's lawyers?
What on earth? Yes, this is great for Wine, but the idea that this somehow changes IBM's view of Wine is so naive it's almost hard to believe this hit the front page of Slashdot.
Let's go over this again.
IBM have more legal experience and probably more lawyers than the rest of the IT industry put together. If they don't support Wine it's for reasons other than "fear of lawsuits". Perhaps IBM are betting on Java, and Wine is kind of irrelevant in the Java view of things.
Companies that sue IBM tend to be very short-lived. They are either SCO-style attack dogs, or pure patent claim firms. Any real IT company that sues IBM will find itself in sudden and extremely expensive violation of more patents than they knew possible.
The article's premise is BS. The rest is interesting though.
My blog
Thank god someone said it. Now mod him/her up so everyone else can see that we're not all nuts.
How to use coral cache: http://slashdot.org.nyud.net:8090/~oscartheduck
In my and many other people's case, it's thanks to Wine for letting us delete our Windows partition permanently and never bother with Windows again.
One has to laugh at the hand wringing over OSS being sued after screaming bloody murder because Maui in turn violated there own IP. Delicious!
What is the standing of their GPL compliance?
personally i'd like to see charles `bud` tingwell representing its just the vibe of the thing... (for the australians out there)
www.TECHNETIUM.net.au
Not to be a troll, but what good is WINE anyways?
Seriously though, if you're going to use WINE, most likly you are going to use it for games and for the Windows applications it can run, obviously that's what it's been created for. But with computers getting cheaper and cheaper (Dells sell for under $500 now), wouldn't it make more sense now to just go and buy a computer, get a free (as in you pay for it in the computer cost) copy of Windows and run the apps from that box?
Who in their right mind would buy the Professional version of MSOffice 2003 (which costs $500 itself) just to hope that the product works on wine?
Why couldn't IBM 'donate' it's OS/2 code to the WINE team to
(a) allow even more support for Windows apps.
(b) get some of that groovy 32-bit multi-threading goodness out to the public
(c) flip Microsoft the bird for what MS actually did to OS/2 when it launched.
I'd give them a lollipop for that. (OS/2 was the ONLY operating system that I have ever bought. and I still think it handled multi-threading better then anything else I have run since then.)
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
As an annual event, I try to depart from the M$ hive 100%. My last foray brought me VERY close to freedom, but I was tripped up by the need to create and share VISIO files with the M$ world. Apparently WINE is struggling with issues on this front and there was no near-term solution.
I'm not suggesting it's the WINE project's fault, it's just the way it is.
This one gang kept wanting me to join cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff.
He is the lawyer who helped to write the GPL that nobody (even SCO) will test in court and made it so airtight legally. He's been doing things like this for the FSF for years. He's also working on the GPL3, and I think this represents him making the kinds of services he's been providing to the FSF available for all of FOSS. I don't think there's anything nefarious or strange going on here.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
Aren't software patents a good thing in that they encourage innovation? If something's patented when it's already around, doesn't prior art protect its real creator? Also, patents are time-limited, so it's not like there's an eternal period of time where one can't copy someone else's patented idea.
Please answer me calmly and rationally. I'm not a troll just because I might have opinions that differ from your own.
First, this will mean that more programs will get support. (Applications like AutoCAD, which doesn't quite work yet.)
Second, since I started using the Mac, I've become interested in the Darwine project, which aims to make Windows programs run on the Mac without running Windows in an emulator; this project aims to combine Qemu and Wine to run the Wine code natively on the Mac iron while emulating only the application code. Big support behind Wine will likely mean a better Windows-like operating layer not only on x86 systems running, say, Linux, but also on non-x86 systems that are candidates for running the occasional Windows program.
Third, IBM has OS/2 code, which contains some of the same code as Windows itself. I'm not saying that IBM could submit that code directly into Wine, but IBM could have a clean-room implementation of some of the most important functions, using a plain-English specification written by programmers with access to the code. Not to mention that it means a lot of Wine bugs will get fixed. This is good news!
I can't stop thinking something like this might be useful for the Mono project, given the great amount of legal uncertainty that surrounds it (justified or not, the fact is that it exists and it might harm its adoption)
Olive garden is a very well known italian resturaunt here in the US. They are on the expensive side and therefore serve plenty of wine. I guess you can que the jokes... is that wine free as in beer or free as in speech?
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
WINE is not Windoze.
ok, first off. congrats to the great people working on WINE.
that being said. why would I go through all the trouble of dumping windows and switching to linux/bsd only to then attempt to run my windows programs?
OS/2 emulated windows, didn't do shit for it's long term viability. Linux/BSD does not needs windows apps. they need native apps. as IBM learned why would company X port their app to Linux when it's runs (with varied success) in wine?
not trying to troll, just really really don't "get" the efforts to make windows shit run without windows. don't bother with the long-winded intelligent rebuttal to this, because obviously you are wrong.
I use Wine all the time.
Kind of, anyways. I use Cedega, Transgaming's not-totally-free wine branch focused on gaming.
It means I can play many of the Windows games I want to play on Linux.
I happily live in a MS free household. I still play games on my PC, games that wouldn't be possible on a console (RTS, and MMORPG).
TransgamingWine relations are rocky sometimes, but I'm glad both communities are around. They make my life easier.
Sure, it'd be nice if all the developers built Linux versions of their games/apps. But if they find out a significant portion of the user base runs on Wine, they start trying to run their apps inside the company on Wine (some random developer almost always picks it up (Blizzard with World of Warcraft, and I know Secondlife developers have played with it).
Now there's talk of internal attempts to build native linux clients for both World of Warcraft (there was an early beta, but never a release), and Secondlife promises eventual linux support.
Using Windows games/apps on Linux, inside of Wine, demonstrates to developers that there is, indeed, a market for native versions.
Truly, its the best counter argument to "Linux is not a gaming platform, stick it Windows".
I do not believe that it makes developers lazy, and only code for Windows. They were only coding for Windows before; Linux efforts have one way to go, up.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
And if they can get *games* working with WINE, one more major obstacle to world domination will have fallen.
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
they do get the publicity and, if they go to court and do something big, the fame for being the first real group to openly support FOSS projects.
Well Eben is seen as a bit radical, but if you checked you would see that the Software Freedom law center INCLUDES Lessig and others. Also Moglen is a prof. at Columbia which is not something that someone who is not good could have on his resume.
What did you find easy to find Linux alternatives for and what Windows apps do you need? Do you use any proprietary Linux apps?
Way back when, when OS/2 was a potential threat and the Windows 95 wave hadn't hit yet, Microsoft had a product like this.
.NET stuff to work on linux) would be a sign that companies are targeting QT or some other non-MS-controlled method of achieving portability.
Of course Linux was still in its infancy at the time, but Microsoft sold (and even promoted) their 'Win32 for Mac' package as a way to get portability between Windows 95 and whatever MacOS was around in those days.
Of course, it didn't quite work, and once the real threat (OS/2) went away, it was taken off the market, but there was a time when Microsoft saw a reason to sell a portablility library.
I think they also licensed their API's to somebody else to build a Win32 for Unix product, but that was never promoted (that I know of) by Microsoft.
Anyway, since portability seems only to be of importance to Microsoft when they perceive a threat, all it'd take to get a Microsoft WINE (or whatever it takes to get
For that to happen, we'd need to see corporate deployments of desktop Linux take off. So, if the chicken can get off (or on) the egg anytime soon, this may not be beyond the range of possibility...
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
It isn't Windows applications that are "the enemy". Wine allows you to run applications that are important to your business on the GNU/Linux operating system.
The reason this is good is that business cannot switch to the more secure GNU/Linux OS, but still use apps they don't have time to migrate from.
Needing to use a proprietry windows accounting program is all that holds my mum's company back from switching to GNU/Linux. If it will work under wine she can start the migration process now, and switch from Pegasus Opera to native Linux when she isn't up to her eyelids keeping the company running.
Summary for those who skipped the above message : Wine is GOOD, it is an important intermediate step in moving to GNU/Linux from a total Microsoft environment.
And I'd like to thank you, ahead of time, for taking yourself out of the gene pool, since someone who spouts as dumb a statement as that is gonna kill themselves one day getting out of bed.
-What have you contributed lately?
If a developer doesn't need to make a linux native version, because it is supported in WINE, then they won't. Wine will keep you from finding those native apps because they simply won't exist.
Do you even use Wine?
As I understand it, Wine is there so that people can use the few Windows apps they need to use, but prevents those apps from being a barrier to moving to a Linux environment. The hope is that apps will emerge that have sufficient capability to supplant the Windows ones being used, but until then, I'd say it's better for users to be using a handful of Windows apps within Linux rather than using all Windows apps under Windows.
And right now, I'm kicking myself hard for sinking to a response to such a blatant troll.
Or worse still... a blinkered zealot.
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. Always boom tomorrow. BOOM!
Your point is only valid for closed source applications. Open source can always be ported by the user community, if the developer refuses to write platform-agnostic code.
You could have made the same argument about MacOS classic when they migrated to OSX. Why bother messing with your application if it's supported under classic?
I'm willing to bet a Wine-ed Quake IV will run with significant less frames...
:)
:(
But perhaps it's be good enough with good computers / resourcefriendly games
Hey.. on a sidenote; I've never succeeded in making the best game ever Master of Orion II run multiplayer (IPX) under XP. (it crashes after a few turns). hmm.. have anyone succeeded with MoO2 & Wine?? =)
Please, I'm so much in need I'm willing to kiss your arse... or go to the wastedump and get some MoO2-compliant computers
urd
and what Windows apps do you need?
I'm not sure about the GP but I maintain a few web pages for friends. Having IE available with Wine means I don't need Windows installed at all to test with. That's very handy.
...reminds me of somebody waiting for the freight train to come before crossing the tracks. Or possibly Nisodemus holding off the police car in Diggers, or the snotty reporter and his big white X in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.
It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall as the whole thing comes apart in their hands.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Am I the only developer who was threatened with a lawsuit by the BSA for violating the license agreement on Office 97, which stated that you may only run Office 97 on a license Microsoft OS?
The problem, of course, was that I was playing with Wine (95) and was therefore running Office '97 on something that was NOT a licensed Microsoft OS.
I only wanted to use Power Point, which had no copmetitors that I could find in 1998. (Microsoft had a true monopoly.)
I filed a complaint under the Sherman anti-trust act for Micrsoft using one monopoly (Power-Point, which had no competitors, and did not even have a generic term like "presentation software" applied to it in 1998) to try to create another monopoly (Windows in the Operating System market.)
Maybe I'm the only one who remembers, but I'm still MILITANTLY anti-Microsoft to this day.
They comitted feolnies, and the Justice Department ignored their real wrongdoing for years. I wonder why? The DOJ seemed to do this long investigation and never found anything I thought was worth pursuing, when you only had to glance at the Office '97 license agreement to find a felony.
Andy Out!
I don't know about others but I'm a photographer and am thinking of upgrading to Photoshop CS2. That I know of there isn't any comparable FOSS application with the capabilities of PS and I just checked and I didn't see a version of PS for Linux on Adobe's website. I know there's GIMP, I've installed and used it but it isn't able to all PS can. I've also been working on getting a degree in web programming, I want to do some web development, and would like to get Macromedia Studio and like Adobe I didn't find a version for Linux on Macromedia's website. It's not just Dreamweaver I'd like, but maybe also Freehand and Flash, which is why I want Studio which bundles all three.
FalconShould there be a Law?
If a developer doesn't need to make a linux native version, because it is supported in WINE, then they won't. Wine will keep you from finding those native apps because they simply won't exist.
This may be true but most people who need these apps need them now.
FalconShould there be a Law?
That's kind of a frightening prospect. It implies that what we have is a world made of people who don't honestly enjoy their professions. I know that this is true, but it's not a good reflection on the state of the human race. Of course, I'm not advocating selflessness as a motivation. I'm simply saying that people should love their jobs otherwise they should try to find something more suitable to their personalities even if it means less money.
In a since that's what Ayn Rand says, er said, in her books, like "The Fountainhead" where Howard Roark wants to be an architect on his own terms, though she does advocate selfishness.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I think instead that if you had an enducation system that regularly assessed people's strengths and weaknesses, took into consideration their interests, and then showed them ALL of the opportunities in society where they could pursue and excell at what they enjoyed, that you would not need material, external motivators at all, and thus make a moneyless society like Technocracy possible.
I've taken some of the career assessments you're taking about, the last tyme while I was in therapy after an accident. I'm tempted to say they should be required in public schools but such a law would only be another in a long line denying people their liberty and freedom. Instead I'm all for having school offer the assessments and letting students know they are available.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Yeap, Angel Investors
FalconShould there be a Law?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Surely MS haven't sued simply because they can see no legal grounds to do so. Otherwise they would have used this against Lindows.
Actually Microsft did sue Lindows and tried to get a preliminary injunction against the company for using "Lindows" saying the name infringed on Microsoft's trademark:
Lindows.com Wins First Round
Judge denies Microsoft's request for injunction over Linux utility's name.
Sam Costello, IDG News Service
Wednesday, March 20, 2002
A judge has denied Microsoft's request for a preliminary injunction against startup Lindows.com, allowing the startup to keep selling its operating system under the name Lindows...
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Personally I would spend up to $100 just for a windows "add-on" for linux, even with activation rammed down my throat.
I'm using Windows now but because of activation the only Windows product I plan on buying is Windows 2000, that is if I can get a Mac soon. I'm hoping to get a 17" powerbook and if so will get Virtual PC with 2000 so I can use it to do some testing in 2000.
Falcon
They said I have to have Windows, but they didn't say I had to run it on a pc.Should there be a Law?
Actually Virtual PC has been out for years, however Microsoft bought it out I think it was last year. Here'an article from "Byte Magazine" dated November 1997:
Building the Virtual PC
FalconA software emulator shows that the PowerPC can emulate another computer, down to its very hardware.
Should there be a Law?
that being said. why would I go through all the trouble of dumping windows and switching to linux/bsd only to then attempt to run my windows programs?
Though it's not the same question it is similar to another question I answered so I'll answer this one as well. I am an amateur photographer, ie I don't work and get paid as one yet, and as Adobe hasn't released a Linux port of Photoshop CS yet, here's hoping they will soon, the only way I could run it in Linux is by using WINE. It wouldn't be a problem if there were FOSS apps that had the same capabilities of PS but there isn't one yet. Yes I know know there's GIMP, I have it and have used it but it doesn't have the capabilities of PS. That's just me but I bet there are others who need to run apps that are only ported for Windows/Macs.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Ah, Olive Gardens. It's one of my fav Italian restaurants. But it's been years since I've been to one, I moved a few years ago and don't think there's one here yet. Not that I eat out much, it's been more than a year since I have, and before I moved I used to go to a fantastic Chinese restaurant every Saturday for lunch.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Moo2 seems to barf in Win2k as well. That said, under Wine, while it is slightly buggy, it is FAR more stable than under any version of Windows NT. (It works fine in 95/98/Me, TTBOMR). I used regular Wine (not cxoffice or cedega) under Gentoo, but any distro and any wine variant should work just fine.