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Trust in a Bottle
flosofl writes "The BBC has a report on oxytocin and its ability to skew our trust levels. 'The participants in the study played a game, in which they were split into "investors" and "trustees." The investors were then given credits and told they could chose whether to hand over zero, four, eight or 12 credits to their assigned trustee.' Some of the investors were given oxytocin via nasal spray. The results were surprising: 'Of 29 investors who were given oxytocin, 13 (45%) displayed "maximal trust" by choosing to invest highly, compared to six (21%) of the 29 investors who were given the dummy spray.' When the trustee was a computer, there was no difference between the two test groups."
When the trustee was a computer, there was no difference between the two test groups."
Except they were *way* cooler....
Humor from a Genetically Molested Mind
Now, we're going to be inundated with junk mail drenched in pheromones.
I see that stuff alot in police departments, now I know why!
For this to really be worked out you need to do multiple test on a much larger scale. The people in the one group could have just been suckers.
- MOSKIE
Websters defines trust as the act of trusting.
How many people are led down the primrose path to Hell by some friend or lover who we trusted completely? Whether it be some sort of suddent infidelity or a constant wearing down of trust, that person eventually broke our trust.
Now, in the light of our experience, we look at all of our future relationships through the darkened glass of failed trust. Is it any wonder that half of all marriages end in divorce now? We can't open our hearts to those we love 100% because it means that we may have our trust abused again.
The problem isn't lack of trust. The problem is, and always has been, the lack of trustworthiness.
But one expert warned it could be misused by politicians who want to persuade more people to back them.
For some reason I picture Honor Blackman flying over the electorate on election day, spraying this 'trust potion' from light aircraft.
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
Oxytocin scented heavy duty condoms; sold at truck stops everywhere!
Humor from a Genetically Molested Mind
A match made in Heaven. Nevermind the uses in schools, stores, and indoctrination centers like national political and Amway conventions
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
the results were pretty damn spectacular.
Its interesting that when a computer was the trustee, there was no measured effect from the oxytocin. If this effect is replicated for all non-human interaction, then the use of this on a larger scale would seem to be limited. However, there are interesting repercussions for the use of this kind of thing in business negotiations, where there can be control over the environment and a degree of trust could have a vital swing in decisions made
Being able to 'over-ride the fear of being betrayed', as it is put in the article could be a powerful factor in swaying decisions, and I would hope that by the time of any mass-market availability or application that ways and means of testing would be available for those environments that require 100% impartiality.
Business Voyeur
The lengths some people will go to to get published.
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29 huh? Doesn't that seem a little low for good experimental results? I mean, 13 to 6 isin't really that signifigant of a number in the long run. I'll wait to judge until this study is repeated.
WASTE - The Secure P2P
This may sound like a joke, but it's not intended as such. Is it possible we could see this as the next form of date-rape drug? It seems like it would be much harder to tell if someone had injested it (they wouldn't pass out or be too tipsy)...this could be bad...
Before you mod me funny, think, perhaps I was insightfully funny?
Whatever happened to that "smell-o-vision"-type odiferous computer add-on from a few years back? Is this the trick that Bill will use to keep us using Windows?
Seriously though, odours *are* powerful memory triggers. "Deja-Pew", sort of.
I'll trust the researchers when I try it out myself.
Perhaps this is a bad reflection on me, but my immediate reaction was:
;-)
'heh - I've oftentimes placed my trust in a bottle...'
but I've been known to drink rather heavily, I guess
Well, duh... The 'unwashed masses' have never been trust worthy... Who will you trust better: A doctor smelling of ether, or a doctor smelling of cheap wine?
Oh well, what the hell...
Humor impaired moderators: the preceding was an attempt at humor.
Electric Monkey Pants
For a second there I thought they were talking about oxycontin. High on that you might trust anyone.
Isn't this a hormone supposedly released during the female orgasm?
Striking fear in the authors of godawful fanfiction, I am here, appearing in darkness, Tuxedo Jack!
Unless you want a tinfoil gas mask or water purifier.
No, but if you would shower daily, your luck would probably improve. ;-)
Oh well, what the hell...
Well said. You can't even trust the people who love you to not stab you in the back repeatedly...sorry, I'm just a little bitter.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
I'm curious how this affects the "trust level" of people who were previously burned, especially by the person you are expected to trust. Is it just automatic, or do you still have some ability to balance it... If not, this could turn out to be the holy grail for all kinds of good and evil purposes.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
That's oxycontin -- we're talking about oxytocin.
Different thing altogether.
Although with a jar of both I imagine you could have a heck of a party.
At the end of which, (wait for it), you'll probably need some OxyClean.
Oxytocin not Oxycontin
"Oxytocin is the most commonly used labor-stimulating agent. Other methods of stimulating labor include nipple stimulation..."
Suddenly, my mind is making way too many connections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxycontin
It's the hormone Oxytocin, not the narcotic Oxycontin.
Dear Reader: Enclosed is a free sample of oxycotin. We are sending to you because we are in a bind you see. The Nigerian department of South America has $10 million dollars from the government to Rush Limbaugh's school of Churches. We need you to wire us $5000 immediately to help free this money from government oppression. thank you, Ubuntu
that Oxycontin skews our trust levels.
Maybe it's the abscence of oxycontin that skews our trust levels to the negative.
If you ask people, they SAY they would prefer to live in a more trusting world. To the extent we can choose our attitudes instead of having our attitudes chosen by survival instinct would be a good thing.
Wait. I'd better call my broker and ask him how that VA software stock I bought is doing.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
i believe you're thinking of oxycontin. it seems lots of people posting are making the same mistake. this isn't the pain killer oxycontin, this is oxytocin which is used to induce labour and breastfeeding.
I don't know if anyone else here has tried it.
But the 40mg pills I had were way too crazy to be taken whole, generally a quarter to half pill. Quite a step up from your vicodin or percocet.
From the article:
When trustees were replaced by a computer, the oxytocin effect was no longer seen on the investors.
I find this fact to be of most interest.
But the question is, how was the computer being operated? was there a human typing things to the investors through a computer, or was it an AI asking various preprogrammed lines of questions and taking various approaches? The difference being, if its a human operating the computer (one of the same humans that were getting higher trust responses when in the flesh) that means a lot of what has to with trusting depends on appearances and the expressiveness of the human body, and we generally agree when rationally approaching a trust situation. On some level this holds true even if its an AI.
-- "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains." Jean Jacques Rousseau
If you lack the ability to judge with logic then perhaps then its a chemical, but I always thought that trust is based on experience, logic, character of the people you are dealing with and a lot of other factors, and even then its never absolute.
You are not correct. OXYCONTIN indeed is an opioid, considered to have strong potential for abuse, but used medically for pain management. OXYTOCIN is a hormone naturally occuring in the human body. It has a broad range of effects, and is used medically for induction of labor in certain situations. The two are completely different substances. In the future, please considrer to RTFA and, for that matter, to google the **actual** subject of discussion before posting!
"Civic alarm at such abuses should have started long before this study."
Bad scientist, no heaven.
-GW
What about putting this substance in food.
I think we should be careful about the food we consume at political events!!
On a serious note, [tinfoilhat] certain groups within the government (both her and in the UK) have a long long history of seeking behavioural modification drugs that affect the actions of people without a discernable altering series of symptoms.
I have a video of UK soldiers who were being filmed on training missions after receiving LSD unknowingly. In this case, they were given way too much and the results were not good.
I have a very good friend, who just last week, confided in me about her brothers recent court martial from the Marines. Apparently he was in Iraq and he and 47 others in his platoon were being given meth amphetamines by superiors during battle. They were (all 47) court martialled from the marines recently after they were convicted of "buying narcotics from street dealers" when in fact they were being given the drugs from the military and were not allowed to sleep for very extended periods of time...
I wasnt told the details about how they were caught, but they were under diress not to reveal the true nature of the situation to the court martial.
[/tinfoilhat]
$5.50 for 20 I.U. "Keep out of reach of children".
/. virgins and dyslexic dopeheads!
Go get it all you
That Rush Limbaugh is a very trusting fat, pasty white guy.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
So many numbers, so little time.
Never make important decisions based on emotion. Decisions based on fear, anger, hate, love, trust.
One of the most important decisions is voting.
I'm very proud of my sensible Dutch countrymen and I'm very disappointed in the easy-to-fool half of the USA.
Did I just make you feel an emotion? Envy? self-righteousness?
- -- Truth addict for life.
This hormone is produced when female nipples are stimulated. Maybe you guys can get her to trust you.
Join Tor today!
This will be useful in preliminary interrogation.
Is there some antidote to this, like some type of mistrust spray or cologne? I simply don't trust people to use this honestly.
It would be a useful thing to wear to such places as car dealerships, political rallies, and investment seminars, where they might secretly spray the premises with this "trust" potion, and walk away with your money or love.
In it mentioned that politicians are marketing folks can do things so that people start producing oxytocin. so you don't need to go around and start spraying people per se.. you just need to get them feeling a certain way and their brains will start generating the stuff.
There's simply no way this is possible. It's rediculous. Hold on, there's a knock at my door.
Like I was saying, you have to really trust a source like the BBC.
Oxytocin is in fact the hormone that is released by women during labour. It helps to progress labour and act as a pain killer. I don't know how they first made the link between a childbirth hormone and trust - but there you go!
Or does this experiment seem a little flawed? What's up with "credits?" Obviously, none of the participants had any attachment to the credits, why would it matter whether or not they trusted the people they were giving them away to? Perhaps if the study had them giving real money or lending personal items, I would take this more seriously. To me, this seems like just a bad experiment.
I remember reading an article in Discover that oxytocin had been identified as a hormone responsible for monogamy.
IIRC, there were two species of voles. One monogamous, one not. The monogamous ones had high levels of oxytocin, the licentious ones, low.
When the species with low levels of oxytocin were injected with oxytocin they became monogamous.
Pretty straightforward cause and effect.
I've noticed a lot of people posting stuff about "OxyCOTin" - the pain killers...
The article is talking about something totally different: "OxyTOCin" - a hormone, with a few defined activities related to birth and lactation...
*Oxytocin is a hormone that is known to reach highly elevated levels during the female orgasm. Thank you, AP Biology.
IIRC, women get a massive burst of oxytocin when giving birth, thus bonding them with their infant. Clever evolutionary strategy, since it makes it more likely that one parent will take care of the kid.
My wife thinks our son can do no wrong. Me, I wonder when he's going to get a Real Job. Feh.
Obviously politcally useless as you are going to associate the scent with the persons standing near you and when it comes to voting you will just increase your trust everybody there with out political preference. Only really effective at point of sale i.e expect used car dealers etc. to buy it in bulk.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
...hasn't beer been having this effect for years? :-)
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
It's not a date rape drug substitute, at least in the obvious sense.
Ingestion doesn't work -- it's destroyed before hitting the brain.
Inhalation does work, but according to the researchers (who obviously have some bias), a very high concentration is required -- they implied that it would be a visible fog in the air to be causing significant impact.
Injection is apparently ideal. The new truth serum for a good cop/bad cop scenario?
Of course, given the vast range of applications of a substance that makes someone love and trust another, I'm sure that there are all kinds of chemical companies, governments, and individuals batting around all sorts of ideas.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
45% of people trust others when smelling this,
Some might round up and say half of the sample
population.
Dude, it's only 13 people out of 29,
and it's even less since
6 others were also trusting,
So say 7, that's right, 7 people, who
knows how they were selected.
I know most of the "used-car salesmen will spray us with this!" posts are mostly joking... but I think it's worth keeping in mind that it would be illegal to force someone to injest/inhale such a chemical. I mean, secretely giving your customers all kinds of drugs, in order to make them give up their money more easily, is clearly illegal. This hormone is not as potent as a drug, but I believe it would still be regulated (in the US, by the FDA). Thus, its inclusion into consumer products (such as food) would be controlled (probably banned!), and I highly doubt anyone would get away with massive dissemination-of-hormones-through-air efforts.
The much scarier outcome (in my opinion) is: "current marketing techniques - for political and other products - may well exert their effects through the natural release of molecules such as oxytocin in response to well-crafted stimuli." I think it's somewhat scary how advertisers are using the wealth of information from psychology research in order to craft their campaigns. I see nothing wrong with advertisers doing the best job they can to attract attention to a product, but there comes a time where it goes from advertising to being immoral manipulation. Will we reach a day when advertisers are able to profile us each so well that they can manipulate us into buying things we really don't need or want? Has that day already arrive? Am I supposed to make some obscure reference to tinfoil now?
" I want to be able to trust people more. That means I have to be able to throw them further."
--bash.
"What does slashdotting mean?"
"You've never heard of slashdot?"
"I know it makes websites not work."
-Corporate America
(%i1) factor(777353);
(%o1) 777353
I'm not sure I trust the reporting. Wait, let me take some oxytocin....Ah, that's better. My, what a great news story! I can easily see how its conclusions fit reality.
Firstly, isn't trust just another label for apathy? And secondly, if one increases the level of apathy, wouldn't they invest similarly? Just a note from someone who doesn't care
something should be here besides this dumb message
Yes, it's generally a good idea to be trusting the person stimulating your nipples. Maybe oxytocin makes that easier.
I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
... that oxytocin is also the main drug used in inducing labor, usually for moms who aren't delivering fast enough for the doctor to make their tee time.
...is WEAR IT and...[audience]HIT IT!
From the inventor of the Showtime(TM) and the GLH hair system!
(I couldn't think of a two-syllable word for sex that rhymed with "wear"...)
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
Can useful amounts of Oxycontin be absorbed through the skin
(think drug coated pens, door knobs, etc)
Q. But why not just dope their drinks?
A. because that would be stupid
I guess the other big question is why not just use LSD.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Wow... I guess you've never been in the position of having to sell a product or service. It's a very core principle of professional salesmanship: if the prospect doesn't trust you, he will never open his wallet. 90% of the sales process is working to build rapport and trust with that person. People don't decide to buy or not to buy based on reading the stacks of whitepapers and literature thrown at them. They don't call your previous customers to ask how your track record looks. It all boils down to how they personally feel about the guy trying to influence them, aka "trust".
Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
in lactating (breastfeeding) mothers, oxytocin stimulates myoepithelial cells, causing milk to be ejected into the ducts of the mammary glands.
So, if you are worried about being affected by this hormone in public gatherings, just stand near a group of lactating women. If they all start leaking milk, you've been hit.
I am not a robot. I am a unicorn.
Wow get people high and they trust you, get them addicted and they will die for you.
-=Linsys=-
http://www.intrusionsec.com
You are missing on how this will be abused. Marketing firms will do anything to get you to buy. They made TV so you get 12 minutes of a show you want, then 3 minutes of louder and brighter commercials. That stopped working too well, so the marketing firms started paying television show producers to place thier products in shows.
Marketing firms hire psychologists and doctors to find ways to get people attention, put the consumer in a more relaxed and willing mood to buy their product.
Look at all the commercials on television that are for weight loss. They show beautiful women and guys with rock hard abs, they praise the product like it changed their life. Then in the smallest possible letters the following is written: "atypical results". To anyone who has not scored over 700+ on the SAT verbal, that probably has little meaning, if you can even see it!!
So how will this new scent that increases trust be used. Don't be suprised if you walk by an advertising poster in a local shopping mall, and get a wiff of something that makes you really believe whatever the poster says. Je'n sait pas, mais je crois!!
But the greatest harm this will do is to make us less trusting of each other. We will become more callous and apathetic. Nuerotransmitters are not available in unlimited qualities. Once used, it takes a time until more is available. Also, since this scent works on a phisiological level, we will no longer be as trusting, the threashold for trust on a phisiological level will be increased. This is just like the tolerance for capsiacin, or hot peppers. The first time someone has a jalepenjo, it will taste much hotter than the 500th habanero someone eats, even though the habanero is 100X hotter a pepper. The first burn is always the worst, the body adjusts the threshold for a nueron to fire.
So, what will we have. More companies trying to push their product down our throat. They will blur the line between advertising and getting a physiological response. And as a society, we will increasingly become less trusting, more apathetic, and more miserable.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
Dude, have you ever heard of Ecstacy?
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
Of these teenagers that were caught breaking into a chemist - consuming on site, and stealing for sale, a massive amount of Oxytocin. Due to its simmilar name to a drug named Oxycontin...
Personally, I think spending a night in jail wide-eyed and with a desire to cuddle others would of been more than enough punishment for the lot...
3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
I certainly would not perscribe oxytocin for these purposes. Oxytocin is typically used to induce labor and reduce postpartum bleeding.
In terms of mechanism of action, during pregnancy, oxytocin receptors in the uterus are up-regulated and the release of oxytocin from the posterior pituitary results in one of the few positive feedback mechanisms in the human body.
Despite this, the role of oxytocin in normal labor is uncertain.
We certainly do not want to be using it for "trust" if we do not even know how it fully functions during normal labor.
Seriously Baby! , I can prescribe anyZing , i Vant
Umm.... Doesn't pot make you stupid? How many other drugs are there like this.... I forgot. ;-)
Saying theres no pill on earth which xxxxxxxxxx is a dangerous statement.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" -- George Orwell
... or is it human error that has made all these people post about different articles in here?
Every cloud has a silver lining, but, then again, so does every cigarette packet.
If this is an attempt at making a sucker pill, well its a nice attempt and I'm sure a few people will buy the sucker pill and start trusting strangers. Myself, I won't trust anyone who hasnt earned it, and earning it isnt easy, takes time, effort, and a proven track record.
Good for you. However, quite a few people are eager to buy a product simply because it appears in advertisements with a celebrity they like.
"These aren't the droids you're looking for." Obi-Wan palmed a spraycan of Oxitocin and waved it around. "He can go about his business."
The stormtrooper stared blankly at Kenobi, as his masks surgery-room-grade air scrubbers quietly filtered the chemical. A second more, and he decided the old man was bullshitting him. A quick signal and a short hail of blaster fire later, the occupants of the speeder were smoldering corpses, and the droids were in the care of a professional deprogrammer.
Doesn't have quite the mystique.
It only makes sense that if you act in a 'trustworthy' fashion - or if you don't go out of your way to partake in actions that negatively affect other people - that people will give you more 'trust'.
When you think about it, it's really just a matter of pattern recognition, something that humans have the ability to excel at if they wish to.
I would guess that any trust gained from this pill would either be just a placebo sort of effect, or it would make whoever took the pill painfully naive.
kaens.blogspot.com
I've bought several cars and never once trused the dealer.
TFA:
Further, the speculations of Dr. Damasio border on paranoia:
Honestly, who shows up to political rallies? Not generally people who need to be convinced of the candidate's trustworthyness.
I'd be far more concerned with realistic abuses like date rape, or door-to-door "salesmen," scamming old people out of their money.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Do you want to install and run "Microsoft DRM" signed on 6/1/2005 3:40 PM and distributed by
Microsoft Corporation
Publisher authenticity verified by Microsoft Windows Verification Intermediate PCA
Caution: Microsoft Coperation asserts that this content is safe. You should only install/view this content if you trust Microsoft Corporation to make that assertion.
[ ] Always trust content from Microsoft Corporation
NO
Pssssssssssssssssssssss!
(hey, what's that coming out of the computer?)
(Something smells funny).
(10 minutes later)
[x] Always trust content from Microsoft Corporation
YES.
(boy, am I ever glad I bought one of those new Pentium 4s!!! The chip has everything!!!)
The Internet is generally stupid
I'm sure George Bush will think that this is just the magic pixie dust (er.. spray) he needs to get his Social Security reform agenda off the ground.
Government Official: "In order for me to issue you your new Social Security ID, please sign here, here and here and sniff here."
1. Do a test confirming that oxytocin makes people dumber
2. Launch large scale manufacturing of oxytocin impregnated sprays to be used in conference rooms nationwide
3. Profit!
http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/en docrine/hypopit/oxytocin.html
Physiologic Effects of Oxytocin
In years past, oxytocin had the reputation of being an "uncomplicated" hormone, with only a few well-defined activities related to birth and lactation. As has been the case with so many hormones, further research has demonstrated many subtle but profound influences of this little peptide. Nevertheless, it has been best studied in females where it clearly mediates three major effects:
* Stimulation of milk ejection (milk letdown): Milk is initially secreted into small sacs within the mammary gland called alveoli, from which it must be ejected for consumption or harvesting. Mammary alveoli are surrounded by smooth muscle (myoepithelial) cells which are a prominant target cell for oxytocin. Oxytocin stimulates contraction of myoepithelial cells, causing milk to be ejected into the ducts and cisterns.
* Stimulation of uterine smooth muscle contraction at birth: At the end of gestation, the uterus must contract vigorously and for a prolonged period of time in order to deliver the fetus. During the later stages of gestation, there is an increase in abundance of oxytocin receptors on uterine smooth muscle cells, which is associated with increased "irritability" of the uterus (and sometimes the mother as well). Oxytocin is released during labor when the fetus stimulates the cervix and vagina, and it enhances contraction of uterine smooth muscle to facilitate parturition or birth.
In cases where uterine contractions are not sufficient to complete delivery, physicians and veterinarians sometimes administer oxytocin ("pitocin") to further stimulate uterine contractions - great care must be exercised in such situations to assure that the fetus can indeed be delivered and to avoid rupture of the uterus.
* Establishment of maternal behavior: Successful reproduction in mammals demands that mothers become attached to and nourish their offspring immediately after birth. It is also important that non-lactating females do not manifest such nurturing behavior. The same events that affect the uterus and mammary gland at the time of birth also affect the brain. During parturition, there is an increase in concentration of oxytocin in cerebrospinal fluid, and oxytocin acting within the brain plays a major role in establishing maternal behavior.
About time someone analysed it. Now all we need is the antidote and someone at Apple will be able to stop him before he (e.g.) sues his fanbase!
If you are on Oxycotin, and it makes you feel fantastic, who cares if your "trustee" steals your money. YOU ARE ON DRUGS!, you don't care about money. Its like saying that when I've downed 3 or 4 martinis, I am trusting that people won't laugh at me when I dance.
. . . . So now that we have made trust in a bottle. How about the next invention be trustworthiness in a bottle.
before we start receving Oxytocin spam? Or its superior herbal equivalent Oxial1s?
Cheers
Stor
"Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
no, this won't get you laid. neither will working out, nor hitting the knife. your only chance to get laid is to die early and be reborn as someone worthy of getting laid. so help yourself out: slice your throat now - it'll get you laid faster.
How to inspire trust:
1) Smile. If you smile, they smile, they feel good, they like you, they trust people they like.
2) Eye contact. If you look them in the eyes when you speak to them, they feel that you're not hiding anything.
3) Mirroring. Talk like they do. The speed they do, the inflection they do, the lingo they do, a hint of their accent. It can be noticible if it doesn't come across forced. You're just like them. People like people just like them. If they like you, they trust you.
4) Agree with them. People think others that agree with them are smart and on their side. People trust others that are smart and on their side.
5) Take control. If you take control of the situation, you're an authority figure who has a plan. People respect and trust authority figures to look out for their best interests. Just like mom and dad.
6) Become familiar. Find excuses to enter their environment. All they need to do is see you a few times. In their minds, you cease to be a stranger without them even knowing a thing about you. People trust those that are part of their normal environment.
There are LOTS of ways to go about establishing trust in someone without proving yourself trustworthy and against their will. If you think otherwise, you're the one that's naive.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Ecstacy makes you stupid?
FIRST let's try putting a candidate for up for office that has qualities clearly the opposite of those that should generate trust in voters. Pick someone that obviously isn't very intelligent, has a history of alcoholism, has had major financial support from a corporation with known corrupt management, and has been caught in numerous misleading statements and lies.
THEN find a large pool of voters exposed to oxytocin or a similar hormone. Since oxytocin is involved in production of breast milk, we could try giving cows extra hormones knowing some will pass through to the milk that humans consume. No one will pay much attention if we explain that it is for increased milk production.
NEXT have an election.
oh wait.....
I don't see why this is so surprising... many frat boys use another drug, alcohol, to gain the trust of their female cohorts. What I'm wondering is if this Oxytocin has any noticable side effects, like intoxication. Also, if it is the same drug that is released by the body during human bonding experiences, it would seem to me that it's effects would be longer lasting.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
How many more people are going to forget how to read and think it's the wrong drug?
You're only about the 60th person so far, so at least you're not the only asshat.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
No, of course not. All the brilliant people I know spend their free time listening to monotonous thumping music on X while dancing around like retards with glitter, glowsticks, candy necklaces and sucking on pacifiers...
"if I lend you money and you pay it back on time, keep your word, etc, your word gains worth and value, and I'll be more likely to lend you money in the future. This is not trust, this is simply tracking a persons reputation.
[...]
Myself, I won't trust anyone who hasnt earned it, and earning it isnt easy, takes time, effort, and a proven track record. "
I don't get your distinction. If I prove my word over time - a "track record" - you trust me. But you say that's not trust. Which is it? And if accepting risks because they're proven not to be risky by past success isn't trust, then what *is* trust?
--
make install -not war
Ordell Robbie: You can't trust Melanie but you can trust Melanie to be Melanie.
--
make install -not war
Since the effect seems to be producable by a spray, it is entirely possible that the human body releases low levels of this stuff naturally. If that is indeed the case, it might be interesting to see what the levels are around "in person" celebrities - stage performers, those politicians who mingle with the crowd, etc. My guess would be that people who make it in such environments differ at this kind of chemical level from those who prefer to be kept at a distance (it's hard to see how chemical traces could get through a movie screen, for example).
My guess would also be that cult settings include (by accident or design) an exceptionally high concentration of this chemical. If you think about the "stereotypical" settings for such things, you are generally looking at highly charismatic people (see above theory), and very probably a high usage of all kinds of evaporating oils, incence, perfumes, etc. In such a setting, the adding of something that lowered mental resistance would seem to be more of a question of what form it took, rather than whether it was being done.
Despite the First and Seventh Amendments, I would think that it would be a very good idea to ban the willful use of any chemical that impairs reasoning or ability to trust, especially in any religious or political situation where abuse has the potential to be monsterous.
I would also suggest that the law on such matters as criminal insanity be adjusted to allow for this finding, as it would seem possible that a person's ability to tell right from wrong, or make rational judgements as to who to believe on certain matters, would be impaired only in the presence of the person they were around at the time, making it impossible for an independent psychologist to accurately assess the state of mind under laboratory conditions.
It would seem a grave miscarriage of justice to allow serious abusers of human chemical imperetives to be utterly free and lawfully able to continue that abuse, no matter what the consequences. Likewise, it would also seem to be a grave miscarriage of justice if victims of that abuse could be imprisoned or executed because the law had failed to recognize the reality and implications of that abuse.
This is not to sat that all criminals are really innocent victims, but rather that some unknown percentage may well be, especially where cults and charismatics are concerned. I think that the authorities should be taking this seriously. At least, more seriously and more rapidly than said cults and charismatics are.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
"At the end of the game, the credits were translated into real money, meaning both participants had a selfish financial incentive." Sure, they had something to gain by 'winning' the game in the study, but they had nothing to lose in the first place. Its a whole lot easier to trust someone when you can't lose anything. There needed to be more of a gamble in the study (up front fee), but of course, who would want to do that? :P
In the latest news, Microsoft is now coating their new software CDs with oxytocin, a substance that has disgruntled linux administrators adopting the most secure server and workstation software since computers were invented.
Valkyrie is about to die! Wizard needs food -- badly!
Oxytocin is released in women during nursing, helping establish a stronger bond with the baby. So really, all you have to do to get a woman to trust you is suck on her nipples!
There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
oxytocin
n : hormone secreted by the posterior pituitary gland (trade name Pitocin); stimulates contractions of the uterus and ejection of milk [syn: Pitocin]
I wonder if this has anything to do with Steve Job's secret? If so, is it a natural, unconscious thing, or has he already discovered this?
That explains it all! Obi Wan Kenobi uses oxytocin for his shaving cream. I should've seen it before now!
Most men are not thought unwise until they speak.
getting your investors addicted to oxycontin may have very detrimental effects on future business transactions.
No, but it gets broken down/metabolized to stuff thats acting neurotoxic. (if I recall correctly)
Prolonged and heavy use will result in actual, physical brain damage and degeneration. Bummer, really, I'm quite fond of the effects of XTC.
A friend of mine whos into chemistry and neurology says that you can probably take it once in a while without adverse effects. Like once or twice per year. Popping one every odd year has the added benefit that the pauses in between really tend to boost the (now rare trips) well beyond everything you experience with regular use. I've never been a regular user, so I have to resort to third person narratives of the effects here. The sum total of XTC taken by me is in the range of about 10 - 15 pills in my lifetime.
Well, maybe that explains the enormous amount of trust that Rush Limbaugh has in the current administration.
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
Which primarly works on people with a rather low awareness of their own inner workings. And yes, that probably makes the potential "victims" the majority.
Of course the only victim here is the person expressing trustworthy signals while intentionally aiming for manipulation for its own ends, knowing the signals to be fake.
What seems to happen is that the subconsciousness of the "seller" is picking up on the structures and processes involved in faking trust, and the perceived benefit of such behaviour. Consequently, parts of you that you are unaware of (which tend to be quite a few) start to employ this technique to get the "seller" itself into doing stuff based on trust. The net effect seems to be that you can not trust yourself, even while appearing "trustworthy" to you. Basically you start to fool yourself in a very organized and effective way, driving you deeper and deeper down the spiral.
This, of course, comes with quite a bunch of assumptions regarding mental processes, motivation etc. You may or may not agree with it, but it appears to be quite a good working model with outstanding capability to build valid hypotheses regarding possible future outcomes.
Usually you can "ask yourself" when you have betrayed your own trust, only to realize afterwards that you were coaxed into action thats not really in line with your true intentions.
People who have experience with various forms of addictions can probably testify to this without much introspection (if a proper amount of honesty is used).
My personal take on the matter would be that the more trained you become in exploiting trust, the harder it becomes to get trustworthy answers from yourself regarding matters of your own subjective makeup of the world.
But to whom is it usually prescribed? Why is it such a profitable drug? And did they know it can cause blindness?
How dare I malign the great American Doctor, and the great American Corporation in the same post!
emt 377 emt 4
Simply put: Don't REAL studies involve HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of samples? I mean when you tell me that 6 people did this and 13 people did that, I would immediately ask if it was raining outside or if something happened in the news that day, etc. Some of those people could have just been in a good mood due to sunny weather thus their influence is elsewhere :)
Give me tests with many, many test subjects. Then tell me that 3,000 of them did this when 65,000 of them did that. Then you'll have this magic potion that we have been trying to create for thousands of years to get women into bed. Put me on the mailing list for updates to that one!
This hormonal stuff cannot be the only ingredient to Trust That Makes a Sale. What happens when people call the subject over a telephone, where there is physical separation?
[% slash_sig_val.text %]
I for one, trust our new nasal spray offering overlords.....
sic transit gloria mundi
Maybe I can finally pull of that "These are not the droids you are looking for" stunt.
Except they were *way* cooler....
Because, as everybody knows, human brain need to dissipate 100W worth of heat constantly.
Your head a splode
I remember when I used to do pre-sales at Sun, it was so easy to sell boxes for web servers. Somebody would phone up asking about the iPlanet web server, you'd tell them it's crap and just use Apache like the rest of the 'informed'... after that selling boxes was a piece of cake - "He's honest about bad products, he must be selling us the right box and not one thats 10 times more powerful than we need!"
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams
They may very well not be measuring 'trust' but 'caring for'. Oxytocin is the hormone that makes people look after and care for children. The most basic care is feeding the children, and giving credits to someone is emotionally very much like feeding someone.
Cos I can see the sales of this compound going through the roof as well as sales of piezoelectric vaporizers.
Nightclubs, sales offices, news conferences, shops, sprays, deodourants, perfumes etc etc etc. Actually it doesn't really matter if the specific delivery mechanism works, only that the person buying it has read the science and believes it does.
Deleted
You know this means another round of mass spamming, don't you. V1@gra and 0xyT0c1N only $15.99.
Deleted
... was done by the CIA on GWB: Before they said: "We have convincing proof that there are WMD in Iraq, trust us!", they secretly gave Bush a little dose of this stuff. And the later events clearly showed that it worked.
;-)
\end{conspiracy theory}
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
"So how will this new scent that increases trust be used. Don't be suprised if you walk by an advertising poster in a local shopping mall, and get a wiff of something that makes you really believe whatever the poster says. Je'n sait pas, mais je crois!! "
Anyone remember the Rock Hudson submarine movie around 1987? It was the one in which contaminated paint used on the bulkheads and hull of the fictional submarine drove the crew batty and caused them to launch missiles and start or nearly start WWIII.
It was a PR disaster for the USN since the navy came under scrutiny by idiotic or fear-whipping journalists who showed up at NSLB (Naval Station Long Beach) and other places, asking sailors about the risks. The USN promptly banned or restricted them from the base and then issued stern orders to ALL of us on the base not to talk to reporters about the subject.
Purportedly, the USN never has had to worry about such a thing (especially since a missile launch has several procedures and a number of nearly-perfect safeguards to prevent a single demented or two conspiring persons from launching without orders from NCA (National Command Authority).
However, if the conspirers so desired, there are ways to at least FIRE/LAUNCH the missiles, tho I suspect that in a perfect world, NCA or the USN could electronically countermand the missiles and make them self-destruct.
Now, here is where things could get interesting. Imagine if someone aerosolizes this "Trust Potion" and finds that it can be used in certain scenarios to induce military or police or government officials in a small, contained environment to take actions induced by external or subliminal input.
I don't think it will be EASY to do, but I imagine it's not *impossible*. Imagine, though, if conspirators stashed this stuff away and then released it into a ship's CIC during the heat of conflict. Whether or not the "agents"/"actors" who released it followed it up with suggestions or statements or persuasions, I imagine that some personnel would come to distrust their sensor readouts, orders from nearby officers, and even wonder if the external orders they received are real or fraudulent.
I imagine this will mean that a whole new round of security inspections will have to be done on the plants of commercial cleaners and suppliers of other products to not just the US services, but to ALL governments' services.
Interesting movie or fiction or reality possibilities.
I reserve the right to treat this in a story, but I will not (and, by early publishing of this opinion, cannot) stop anyone from beating me to the punch. However I expect and assert (and defy ANY court on ANY land to invoke any Berne Treaty to deny my own fictional treatment of this idea.
David Syes
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Right after posting this, it dawned on me that some may write in saying that it would be hard for an enemy to infiltrate the commercial manufacturing process and then in great, beneficial timing ship the oxytocin to the fleet or field and have it work as planned to disrupt military operations of a government.
But, considering that the BBC piece suggested potential abuse could come from politicians, imagine this:
A war is unpopular. The commander-in-chief of (pick a name of) the nation wants orders to be followed with little (as is typical) shipboard politicking and background guessing and second-guessing as the ship or unit approaches the launch zone. Now, the carefully-placed commanding officers and ship engineers COULD just release the right amounts of oxytocin into a ship's environmental controls (ventilation citdels plenums) or in tanks or airplanes where there are multiple people in the line of orders and actions and where any one failing to act or in which one dissenter can fould up an operation.
This could be a neat/nifty and devious way for commanders or commanders in chief to ensure that they increase the likelihood of their dastardly or well-intentioned orders are carried out with minimum backtalk... especially in the event "political" or "security" officers are able to filter the public news feed, blackout the crew-to-family electronic and paper mail, and sprinkle doses of pre-oxytocin disinformation prior to the launch point and oxytocin release point...
Interesting movie or fiction or reality possibilities.
Again, I reserve the right to treat this in a story, but I will not (and, by early publishing of this opinion, cannot) stop anyone from beating me to the punch. However I expect and assert (and defy ANY court on ANY land to invoke any Berne Treaty to deny my own fictional treatment of this idea.
David Syes
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
People don't decide to buy or not to buy based on reading the stacks of whitepapers and literature thrown at them.
And relying on vendor literature is better than your judgement of the salesman's character --- how?
The thing is, judging by the salesman's character has a kind of crude rationality. If you spend money, the salesman will take care of you; he may be picking your pocket while he does so, but he will take care of you as well. On the other hand if you get bamboozled by a brochure, that's that.
A salesman will give you personal service. I knew one salesman who had a technically superior product. However it didn't sell itself, He'd lose the customer's attention when he tried to explain it. So he resorted to procuring prostitutes to give his customers blow jobs upstairs in his hotel room whenever he went to trade shows. Of course, that's just a funny example. In the end this guy didn't succeed, because his company didn't provide adequate services on the equipment they were selling. As happy as people were to see him at the trade shows, they weren't so happy when they had to explain to their boss why tens of thousands of dollars of equipment was idle waiting for repairs. So after a few years of inital success, the company folded.
I know another sales guy who was successful for decades. He retired because of cancer, and at the industry show they had a special tribute to him at the banguet and practically everyone in the room had a testimonial. One guy got up and told a story about how his organization was facing a crisis and he had been sick with worry because he didn't have the money for the supplies he needed to get through it. He arrived at work one day to find pallets of those supplies waiting for him, with note from the sales guy telling him to take the supplies and do what he needed to do, and not to worry if he couldn't find the money afterwards. The sales guy had convinced his company that this was a long time customer who needed help getting over a rough spot.
Getting your customers blow jobs and being there to support them in a crisis are both different forms of personal service. Which type generates the most loyalty?
Geeks like the idea of studying whitepapers and literature because it appeals to their strengths. They don't like th idea of judging character as part of a business deal because it doesn't come naturally. But both are important, and neither is easy. It's all to common to get fixated on superficial aspects of either of these kinds of data without looking at their long term implications.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"Trust in a Bottle" There's already millions of chemicals out there that have this effect, alcohol only being the most known of them. Sodium Penthotal coming close second.
I don't have much to add.
seriously, it's not 'Increased trust'
it's 'reduced judgement'
they are HIGH people, you could likely get the same effect with six fingers of bourbon or three lines of cocaine.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
First, real trust has nothing to do with gambling or business. You don't have to trust in situations like that, you just have to make decisions based on previous knowledge.
That's how people with brain damage operate, and it doesn't work very well. Most decisions normal people make are based not on rational cost/benefit analyses, but on trust and social ties, and it actually works better overall. However, most normal people also don't realize what they are doing and falsely assume that they are acting based on cost/benefit analyses.
Myself, I won't trust anyone who hasnt earned it, and earning it isnt easy, takes time, effort, and a proven track record.
That's not a good strategy. You should have an intermediate level of trust by default, and then modify that upward or downward based on experience. And you probably actually do.
You don't need to see my ID.
...
*spray spray*
Now you don't need to see my ID.
Don't take the above poster too seriously. He doesn't.
How did we ever survive as a species......
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
I've bought several cars and never once trused the dealer.
bullshit, there are levels of trust, did you trust the dealer to give you the car in exchange for the money? did you trust that the dealer would still be there in a week if you needed warranty service? did you trust the dealer to be selling you the make and model of car you expected with factory parts?
that doesn't mean you trusted the dealer enough to believe every word that was coming out of his/her mouth or that he/she was giving you the best deal possible, but you trusted the person enough to make the purchase
This ain't news, folks.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Once or twice a year shouldn't be any worse than going binge drinking a few times a year. However, I know people who have used MDMA on a frequent basis, and uh, they aren't them anymore. Heavy MDMA use really does make you stupid.
Another thing that helps with the brain fryage is to take some fluoxetine (prozac) when you are about halfway down. The fluoxetine acts on the same receptors and will drive out the MDMA before they can do any more damage. I'm not sure about the effects of the metabolites though.
Another thing I've heard to boost the experience and help with the burnout is to take 5HT a few hours before the roll. 5HT is a serotonin precursor, which will leave much more in reserve for when the MDMA opens the neurological floodgates.
E pluribus unum
..before his presentations... :)
On Slashdot all you have to do is say some project is Open Source or Peer to Peer, and the Slashdot lemming-nerds will gushing praise over it, whether project has any merit or not.
Like in this test... oxytocin is a hormone, known to be released during sexual stimulation. That just screams "INTERFERENCE!"
I see the test scenario going like this:
In other words, my guess is that the extra "trust" they thought they were measuring was just a side-effect of the subjects wanting to do something with another human being due to elevated hormone levels. That would also explain why they wouldn't "trust" a computer.
Would this be modded Informative instead of Insightful. Heh.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
I don't know, that sounds like an idiotic way to purchase/sell something. I read the stacks of whitepapers, tech specs, etc. I call previous customers and ask them about the company. I get demos of hardware to play with. I look at the financials of the company, etc. Salesman shouldn't have to make you trust them based on nothing other than their attitude/personality. They should be able to show you their track record and their superior product, and then say "go out and fine something better, I dare you." Those are the salesman I enjoy working with. I couldn't give two shits about the salesman in the end. You deal with the salesman for a little while, go out to lunches, etc. Then you are stuck with the PRODUCT - that's why I focus on the product and ignore half the things that the salesman is blurting out. Hopefully your not at salesman, as there are probably a lot of things going on that your unaware of.
You create your own reality - Leave mine to me.
Rock Hudson died in 1985. His "submarine movie" was "Ice Station Zebra", from 1968.
Unless you're a character in a porn story, if she's willing to let you stimulate her nipples, she already trusts you.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
"These aren't the droids you're looking for..."
My other sig is a Porsche!
Has this sort of test been done with other drugs? I'd be willing to bet that a lot of drugs could have the same properties as this one with regard to trust. If a person is doped up on codeine for pain, prozac for depression, or alcohol/marijuana for fun, I'd be willing to bet that their level of trust in people wavers quite a bit. It'd be very interesting to see this test done along with several other drugs as well, rather than a simple control group. Maybe they found what they were looking simply because they started looking for it.
I love being the news! :)
LOL
Oliver's Law: Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
Their largest contributor base (corporations) will want this stuff, and the largest voting base (relgious conservatives) will hate the stuff.
We are the 198 proof..
Depends entirely on the product/service you are purchasing. If it is a commodity type item or a service, then the major reason for the purchase will be salesman/company integrity. Also if the product is not something that you will be self supporting, then salesman trust and company trust is very important. That is one of the biggest reasons that many companies shy away from open source/non-microsoft products. Unless a company is dealing with a vendor they trust or they have someone inhouse they trust, they will not try something that is out of the ordinary.
One kind of pheromones makes a woman more attracted to you by the "more trust" and not "more macho" factor (androstenone). This stuff has remarkably similar effects.
Are we looking at new "secret" pick-up cologne ingredient?
"go out and find something better, I dare you." My dad's the kind of salesman who won't get offended if you go looking at other products (he sells high end CNC machinery), but so many other sales guys in the industry just lie right through their teeth, saying one thing or another to get business, and new customers generally don't know, and it's difficult to be trusted once people start talking shit about you, because then you don't really trust anybody, whereas before one person really is the honest one, and the other is the lying bastard who ruins it for the rest - but that's the way it works.
Oxytocin has a few roles in the body, lactation and giving birth in women. Its released by nipple play, the way to a man or womans heart is through there nipples. There is also an oxytocin mimic in fenugreek making it a bit of an aphrodisiac. I gave some to a friend, and he ate it all at once, "it didn't do much" "it didn't even make you horny?" "come to think of it I did have sex with my bed.".
Maybe we should have fenugreek and massage parties?
Only one problem with that thinking
I could have a sexy naked girl in front of me trying to sell me MAC and she would not make a sale.
Unfortunately in Computer businnes the white paper crap does matter and it does matter if they havent got their software working properly at other businesses.Doesnt matter how well i like the guy, i just want him to sell me something goog, your theory works well with necktie MBA dude who doesnt know shit about what he's installing and relies only on what he's being told.
...scientists discover thet people who are high do stupid shit!
Really though, I would like to see the test repeated with other mind altering substances. Maybe you could jack someone's seratonin levels and see what happens when you do the test, or administer some MDMA (kinda does the tame thing, but has other efects as well). Then grab some drunks and repeat the test.
This may just be a correlation between inhibition levels and "intoxication" or at least "adulteration" of the mind. I think that to see what is really going on there need to be more tests done. That is the problem with behavioral testing, correlation and causality can be easily misconstrued. By this I mean that what they are interpreting to "trust" could easily be "trying to impress" or "bad judgement".
And, come to think of it, it would be handy to know what mix of chemicals made it easiest to get someone to hand over all their money to you.
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Besides which the primary mode of manipulation of oxytocin is more likely to be audiovisual stimulation since those are the most easily accessed routes of access to human brain function.
Theater, motion pictures, religious gatherings, etc. are the likely sources of these sorts of manipulations.
Oh, and let me know if I misspelled any words, would you?
Thanks.
Seastead this.
I was watching a recent Andromeda with my daughter, and nearly laughed my head off.
As Rommy and Doyle walk down the hall and get surrounded, Rommy waved her hand and announced, "We're not the droids you're looking for."
"What was that?"
"I don't know, but it didn't work."
Later, with the third gal (Becca), they went into Charlie's Angels style fighitn, complete with hair tossing.
I'm wondering how many more references I missed.
hawk
Oxycotin to replace Beer as leading bar goggle!!
You can invent a pill to help people trust but theres no pill on earth which will make a person stupid.
Oh, there are plenty of "stupid pills" around. In fact you don't even need a pill. Beer will make you stupid enough!
Just because the products are there does not mean that the substance itself causes brain damage of any type. In fact, recently there has been a spade of papers coming out discrediting the whole neurotoxicity theory. Two of the most prominent works on mdma neurotoxicity are papers by Ricaurte and by McCann (sp? I can't remember...sorry). The Ricaurte paper is the one that esentially formed the basis for the placement of mdma in schedule I in the states. It looked at the destruction of axons in seratonin neurons in monkeys. Conclusion was that mdma causes brain damage in very low doses. The problem with this one? well...turns out that it's fairly easy to stop this damage (don't overheat the brain, first off) and also (and probably more importantly) that there is a large amount of empircal evidence that low doses of mdma do NOT cause the type of damage described in the paper. Ricaulte essentially claimed that low doses (like...small recreational doses) would cause irreversible brain damage. Well...there are tonnes of people out there who have taken this and show no signs of the type damage he is talking about. He's also seeming to develop this bad habit of publishing papers on this subject and then retracting them. Makes sensational news to start with, scares the public, but then he's like "oops, oh well".
The McCann paper is one of the one used in that whole "mdma causes brain holes" thing. ok..first off...they arent brain holes...let's get serious. It's not a brain picture, it's a representation of levels of brain chemicals...the "holes" are dark areas. puh-lease. Now...as for the paper...this one gets a LOT of criticism...the reserachers studied sert levels in the brains of humans. They used controls and a number of users ranging from mild users to heavy users. They found a correlation between mdma use and sert levels in the brain and this is what the gov't ran with for their campain. This paper has some major flaws though, and has actually been the subject of a few papers that specifically refute the claims and results of this study (of course, you never hear the results from these). Specifically, the range of values in the control subjects was almost as large as the range in the mdma users. Ie...the range found in mdma users was normal. Despite this, they took an average for the controls, found an increasing line as mdma user increased and claimed cause and effect. Well...no...obviously if the control users can have this range too, then either these high levels aren't harmful, or can be caused by a number of different things, not just mdma. Holding that aside, the range found in the controls was also just ridiculus. Something like 15 or 20 times greater for the highest level in the control than the lowest. This is just unheard of, and is a good indication that there was something else wrong with the study. And yet it's still quoted in all the common gov't issue informational booklets despite the fact that it has come into serious doubt.
Even taking all that aside, even the most alarmist studies neglect to mention that the damage is about equivalent to the damage caused by other fda approved drugs, including some common weight-loss drugs (which just goes to show how screwed we really are in what we criticize and what we accept).
Just my $0.02...but I'd take it with a grain of salt that these things cause the problems described. I have yet to see any convincing proof that mdma is causing this major damage, or that the damage is any worse than damage caused by other fda approved drugs.
...no two people are not on fire.
Absolutely correct.
If your customer likes you they will trust you.
If they trust you, they will buy from you.
It really is that simple. The customer is about to spend a considerable amount of money with you or someone else. They want to hand their hard earned cash to someone that they like. Nothing galls a person more than putting money into the coffers of someone they do not like. It is kind of like handing a donation to a political party that you are idealogically antagonisatic to. It dosen't leave a good taste in your mouth.
All you have to do, as a salesperson, is make sure that you do not do or say anything that abuses the relationship with your customer. Furthermore, if you put the needs and goals of your customer on par with your needs and goals and find a way to achieve BOTH of them you will be amazingly successful.
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Before marketing starts lacing direct mail shot with this hormone ?
Hmm, I can see it now, political posters saturated in oxytocin. "Really, I can run the country. Trust me!"
Request a Linux Shockwave player here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
Why are we keeping ourselves in the dark with regards to this mental disorder?
Seems like this would help a lot, if not outright cure it.
A fascinating inquiry, I do hope somone investigates further. I'm going to have to ponder this one a bit further.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
1. Trust Spray
2. ???
3. Profit!
There have to be a million #2's, and none of them good.
So from now, I just have to offer a free bottle of that stuff to people all over, than Spam them with numerous offers on
:)
... our world is over soon
"investi in euro"
"my millionaire granpa just died and i want you to have all his money just smuggle it out of the country"
"enlarge your boob, stick, and loose 10lbs weight in one day with our new pill"
ooorrrr.... just mix it into the airconditioning went, then invite some investors for dinner
nice
"did you trust the dealer to give you the car in exchange for the money?"
Not Really...
"did you trust that the dealer would still be there in a week if you needed warranty service?"
Not him or his office personally, but the company as a whole, yes..
"did you trust the dealer to be selling you the make and model of car you expected with factory parts?"
Did I expect it to be this way? Yes, did I trust the guy as far as I could throw him? No.
I think the only level of trust I had when I bought a new Van was that the county I bought it in had tough enough laws to prosecute the scummy dealer if he ripped me off...
Don't worry about oxytocin being used by the right-wing to oppress people.
Why?
Because oxytocin can induce labor and hence abortion.
People on the far right would thus never use it.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I'd say about 0.
That only works on a subset of people that aren't already watching what you are doing. While this kind of stuff does work, more often than not it doesn't.
I really hate it when someone tries to sell me something using these techniques. Especially bad with realtors and mortgage officers. Though the most despicable selling techniques I've run into were used by engagement ring salespeople.
I have a tendency to agree- in my experience with my autism, I started out trusting everybody. I had problems understanding that maybe people had different experiences, and therefore didn't know what I knew. As that trust was often betrayed (mainly because other people DO have other experiences and don't know what I know), my trust eroded away- and now I trust nobody. I certainly don't invest- because that requires previous knowledge of a track record- and I can't trust that previous knowledge unless I gained it myself (for all I know, the media is being paid under the table to lie to me, records can be altered, people could be lying about what their companies do). I find no way to do business in such an environment at all. It's ALL gambling near as I can tell.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Which primarly works on people with a rather low awareness of their own inner workings. And yes, that probably makes the potential "victims" the majority.
:D
You're kidding yourself. It doesn't matter worth a damn if you're aware of them or not, they still affect you. Everyone is subject to emotional responses. Most of the "I'm so smart" people who read slashdot will likely agree with you, and I'm sure you're going to be moderated up, because everyone likes to think that they're "above" such things when they're pointed out in such a bald-faced fashion as I have done, but the truth is they're not.
You paint a very ugly face upon the whole idea of inspiring trust in others with behavior because it furthers your point to depict yourself as having the moral high ground and attacking abhorant behavior, but these are not just the principles of a used car salesman or a con artist. These are the principles you use when you're a leader of men, or so said my father, who was such a one before he retired. They're the principles you learn when you're studying to be a shrink so you can help people with illnesses, or so says my brother, who's studying for med school now. They're the principles you learn when you're studying to be a teacher, or so said my ex, who was one. Or a coach for a sports team, which I've studied and done. Or a doctor, or nurse, or emergency response team member. They teach you these skills when you're studying higher levels of first aid, which I did. They're the skills you use when you're making new friends, or picking up girls, which I appear to be very good at, in contrast to the stereotypical slashdotter
They're called social skills. There are better uses to inspiring trust than just to betray it and get the fuck out of dodge.
I find it hard to decipher precisely what you're trying to say in your third paragraph. You appear to be suggesting that learning social skills causes you to suffer from self doubt and at the same time develop some sort of split personality disorder. Care to clarify?
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
That only works on a subset of people that aren't already watching what you are doing.
No, it doesn't. It works on everyone. You just notice and dislike it when it's conflicting with your higher-intellect functions telling you to be suspicious, like when you're dealing with salespeople. I bet it doesn't bother you when your doctor does it to you to set your mind at ease. They don't reserve bedside manner for those that they like, they use it on everyone.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Yes it bothers me when my doctor does it too, and anyone else for that matter except for people that I already know and like. Body motion and conversation tricks are not enough.
"They used controls..."
Wow, they used controls? Those naughty researchers, always trying to trick people.
"the range of values in the control subjects was almost as large as the range in the mdma users. Ie...the range found in mdma users was normal."
So if I have a set of data consisting of values from 190-200 and a set of data consisting of values from 0-10, there's no difference, because the spread is the same?
"the range found in the controls was also just ridiculus. Something like 15 or 20 times greater for the highest level in the control than the lowest."
So if I were do do a study and find that the normal levels of a metabolite were between 1 and 20 nM, then my study must be flawed, right?
I could go on, but let me stop here and say that I understand what you're trying to say, but you'd do better talking in terms of standard deviations and confidence intervals, not "ranges".
Sorry for the snarkiness, I know you mean well, but I hate to see someone attempt to criticize something,eapecially something that needs criticism, and do it in such a incoherent and babbling fashion. You're not helping the cause, friend, so thanks for the help, but no thanks. Here's you $0.02 back, go back to stats 101 and try again.
Ever heard of the *blue* pill?
Will this urban legend never die? Just go here. And toss 'em a couple bucks while you're at it for the harm reduction program. You never know who you could end up helping.
But, I remember in 1986-is the "Nav" banning us from speaking to or discussing with the press anything having to do with paint in USN nuclear (particularly the missile) submarines.
Don't forget that tho he died circa 1985, the movie may have been in post-production or just wasn't circulated until after his death... maybe his agent needed to get one last check...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Or Budweiser.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
how many of the test subjects went into labor...
"Lack of technical competence coupled with the arrogance of power, as usual, leads to no good end."
Not to mention, now they have something to spray all those Free Speech Zones with.
Problem is lots of 'moderators' aren't paying attention and modding these posts off-topic.
I can understand if it was just the occasional miss-post, but this is clearly slash's doing, not the posters.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
I know what you're trying to say about the ranges, but in this case, what I was trying to say is that the ranges firstly, are not normal for this type of a study, and secondly, that when the values you are getting for your controls are the same as the values you are getting for your test subjects then this is an indication that perhaps it is not the drug that is causing the change in values...that there has to be something else there that would cause such a change, because the same change is being seen in the control subjects. This isn't about stats - it's about what is and is not normal for this type of a study. You're right - just because something is a 15 to 20x range does not make it automatically wrong. but in this cause it IS wrong - that kind of range in this type of a brain study is not normal. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear - I'm not criticising the fact that there was a large range, I'm criticising the fact that the range was way out of whack with where it should have been IN THIS CASE and that should have been an indication that there was a flaw somewhere in the methodology.
Incidentally...I also wasn't saying they shouldn't have used controls...I'm not stupid...it was trying to set up the basic experiment. so thanks.
...no two people are not on fire.
I don't generally trust strangers unless I have no choice. Deep down I know that any stranger can be a potential backstabber. The key is to get to know a person as well as they know themselves before you trust them. This takes time to establish, more time than your typical salesperson would like to invest.
Social skills has nothing to do with faking trust and everything to do with how you act. If you don't act trustworthy then I'll never trust you and it wont matter what you ever say to me, you cannot hide your actions, you cannot hide your reputation, you cannot hide your fakeness.
Trust is something you have to build over time, its something you have to earn, and depending on who you are earning it from decides how difficult or easy it is to earn. There is not going to be a spray will which clear your record as someone who picks up girls. When these girls talk about you, and how you picked them up their point of views form the entire point of view no matter what you tell people. So unless you plan to hide your past and look suspicious, your past will be up for review along with you.
What the poster above tried to tell you is if you stay fake for too long you lose the real you, you become fake. Do you want to be an expert at manipulating people or do you want to have people who actually like the real you? You can't have real friends if you resort to faking trust because friendship is based on loyalty, if you arent every loyal or trustworthy in actions it will never matter how good you become at faking it. Hopefully you don't forget how to maintain real friendships.
Stop generalizing everyone into one pot. Some things wich work on you and everyone you know won't work on EVERYONE on earth.
Doctors you don't have any choice but to trust, if you don't trust a doctor you'll most likely die, so you don't have much choice, you have to trust one of the doctors. There is no reason to ever trust a salesman, and while a doctor is a salesman for drug companies, there are ways to figuring out which doctors are honest and which doctors arent. Doctors also have reputations.
Prediction is just pattern recognition. When you have a good reputation with others or with me, it helps you earn trust quicker because its by your track record, this is the best kind of trust that can exist. Nothing else matters, what you say has no influence, its all about how real you are and how responsible and loyal you act. If you act fake it won't help people like me trust you, it only makes people like me suspicious of you. I don't really trust a person who smiles in my face and expects me to trust them, I trust the person who has the reputation from everyone else telling me they are loyal, and who from my own experience I've been able to verify. If I cannot verify, then I don't trust you, and thats basically how it works. Verified trust.
Look, if you want to be a sheep who blows in the winds of whichever way the authority figures tell you to blow, then you should be naive like that. If you want to be an independent thinker who makes their own decisions and lives with the consequences, then you have to learn to trust yourself, your decisions, and your ability to figure people out. Your form of trust makes absolutely no sense, you trust based on trust? huh? You trust based on social ties? huh?
Neither of these are very precise forms of trust, because you can be wrong. This means anyone can influence you because you trust everyone, and not everyone is looking out for your best interest. Your strategy leads down the path of consistant betrayal and disloyalty. From experience the only way to have loyalty is to stop accepting anything less. Trust is based on loyalty, not social ties, not emotion, not how long you've known someone. Until you figure this out, you'll be rolling dice instead of playing chess, and its all based on how you'd like to use your mind to figure people out, you can either use your logical mind or you can leave it all to chance.
I prefer to use my logical mind because I don't feel theres room for error. When you make an error you can end up in dozens of really bad situations which require really bad solutions, and the only way to avoid those solutions is to avoid those situations to begin with by not acting emotional or illogical.
But it depends on how you look at it, you can look at it like checkers or like chess. I see it as chess.
I'm not autistic, but I understand exactly what you are saying, loyalty is a rare trait. If loyalty is rare why should trust be common? Trust for me is as rare as loyalty is in this society, so its rare for me to trust people and it takes a special person to earn my trust.
The media is paid to lie to you, that much is true, and corporations cannot be trusted because they lie too, so the best thing to do is try to focus on individuals and attempt to find the individuals who value loyalty and who want this element in their relationship with you. If they truly value it and its proven through their track record, this is a good sign. If they just say they believe in loyalty but don't act it, then treat them how they act.
>There are LOTS of ways to go about establishing
>trust in someone without proving yourself
>trustworthy and against their will. If you think
>otherwise, you're the one that's naive.
I was not saying that there aren't many different ways of inspiring trust in other people. I was saying that if you are taking a pill to give yourself trust in other people it would probably make you trusting of people who you wouldn't normally trust. I was saying that it would (or at least could) make you trusting in a naive fashion, like a small child - and that that could lead to you getting fucked over pretty bad.
Also, I can not think of many cases where there would be much other motive than control for giving a "trust pill" to another person, excluding treatment for paranoia....
kaens.blogspot.com
Good point. I didn't know that brain scans were so standardized; It always comes across as such fuzzy science to me. Sorry, some people are grammar nazis, some people are stats nazis. I happen to be both. I'll try to behave in the future. It is hard to properly explain the importance of technical issues, whether statistical or methodological, without spending more time than you can really justify on a slashdot comment, so I should relax, I suppose. The background to this (why I took out my frustrations on the first imprecisely worded post I could find) is that I've been trying to convince my labmates of the importance of proper statistics, as opposed to the "I'll just do it three times and take the average" kinda mentality. I'm trying to get them to see that the degree of variability is something that must be determined experimentally.