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Patriot Act to be Expanded
m4dm4n writes "It seems that the patriot act is being expanded rather than scaled back after a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee. The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, as well as the ability to designate subpoenas as secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison."
... land of the free?
Anyone get the feeling we're becoming more and more of a police state?
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
They can do whatever they want without any judges or other laws having to say anything about it and when you go public (or to your lawyer) you go to prison? Isn't that a human rights violation?
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Eurasian spies are everywhere....
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
Yet another step is assuring freedom will overcome terrorism!
It's just too bad Bush can't have a third term. How will we be safe when he is gone?!
best first post ever.
Kinda makes one wonder when the first people start disappearing. Maybe they already have. At least the commie witch hunts of the 1950's were internal. But you're beginning to scare your neighbors now.
The perception of US 'freedom' is being undermined on a daily basis just like pieces of wood being removed from a jenga tower.
/glad I'm european.
Wonder how long you've got before it topples.
tom-george.comBecause geeks rate higher t
Five years ago, before Bush and his administration came to office, my heartfelt wish was "if only I had lived in America rather than Europe". After five years of Bush in office, my heartfelt bliss is that I lived in Europe rather than America.
The solution to your problems as a resident of the United States may be at hand.
In Soviety USA, lame joke applies to YOU.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
It seems like every bit of political news I get these days makes me think a little bit more about not going back. It saddens me to say this but it's true. Apathy is killing our country. We need to remind people that our empire is not unlike others before. They all fell apart. Ours will too.
When I tell an object to delete this, am I killing it or telling it to kill me?
The best thing about these new laws is there won't be any evidence of abuse of power - anyone who squeaks will be locked up and have their reputation destroyed, its like getting rid of free speech without actually getting rid of it: genius!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I remember George Bush said that the terrorist _will_ not win. It looks like they have already won to me.
"...we fear that the designation of information as classified in some cases [brought forth by Sibel Edmonds] serves to protect the executive branch against embarrassing revelations and full accountability... Releasing declassified versions of these reports, or at least portions or summaries, would serve the public's interest, increase transparency, promote effectiveness and efficiency at the FBI, and facilitate Congressional oversight." U.S. Senators Patrick Leahy (D-VT) and Charles Grassley (R-IA) in a Letter to Attorney General John Ashcroft http://www.justacitizen.com/
The fact that he publicly stated this is where it gets interersting, because this leaves open (IMHO) 3 options for the US government:
- US government does not know what Osama said was his reason for attacking the US, and therefor simply react how Osama wants them to react; in this case US government consists of a bunch of morons
- US government knows *damn well* what Osama said and do Osamas bidding, because it suits them well in becoming more like Big Brother
- US government knows what Osama said, but think he is lying. Question is: why would a terrorist be lying? A terrorist wants to get his way, so there is no use in lying about what you want to accomplish through terrorism. Like option 1, US government is filled with morons.
So, US government is either too dumb for words or wants to be like Big Brother. Don't know which of the two is more scary.Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
How can our representatives not see that they are bastardizing our constitutional rights so bad that our forefathers are turning in their graves so hard that they're tunneling out of their coffins. How do the reps not see that we don't really want these rules. George Bush and the reps scream freedom from the tops of their lungs while at the same time strip more and more freedoms away from their own people. Why is it so bad to get judge approval for document retrieval? Yes, it may take a little more work and time, but we need checks and balances, not law enforcers becoming judge and jury on a whim. Along with secret subpeonas, and the rest of the patriot act, they're taking our whole legal system underground and out of our hands. I can't believe how quickly they're trying to take away the fundamentals that make us US Americans, but I'm even more surprised at the rate they're succeeding at it.
"Plans are for fools! Oglethorpe, the plutonian (Aqua Teen Hunger Force)
+5, insightful
+5, informative
+5 years in prison!
This is hilarious. In my country (Australia) we *have* no patriotic act, and also, we dropped two thirds of our national anthem because, well, we really couldn't be bothered singing the entire thing. It's like, we're... America on opposite day.
Commodore64_love: I don't comprehend people who're so frightened of death that they'll bankrupt themselves to stay alive
... Hey, at least here in Australia we have nice beaches and beautiful women and our governing body is just stupid, not totally morally corrupt. Yet.
Not an American myself, but I'd suspect that you're exactly the kind of person who should be going back to the US to stand up for what you believe in and help turn the current political climate around.
Good point. We should trust our government. They are better informed than we are. They are more intelligent. The Government knows better than we do what is best for the country. We should not question the government.
So, in your universe, what is the rationale for holding elections at all?
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
As I expected, many +5 insightful comments have appeared, claiming that american democracy is dead, or that the U.S. is approaching the police state, and so on. I really encourage you folks to try a broader perspective. Of course, those new laws are bad, and abusing citizens' rights, but
1. It's nowhere near the situation during, for example, maccarthyism. Read something about the period. People were out of jobs (or forced out of the country!) for no reason at all, other that they were untruthfully accused of sympathizing with communists. And yet, American democracy survived this, and -- if anything -- became only stronger. Really, you should have more faith in the system's built-in mechanisms. It worked amazingly well for two hundred years.
2. There is absolutely no comparison with the real police states, which are, unfortunately, still very common on our miserable planet. I think, It's insulting for the tortured to death victims in Iran, or China, or Russia, to even compare the minor inconveniences that Americans suffer with the police state actions. Looking from most of the Earth, America is land of the free, regardless how funny you may find this claim.
You US citizens need to put things in perspective. 2,823 died in that attack. Thats very sad but damnit, its not even a drop in the ocean compared to other dangerous things. Almost a million a year dies of off bad diet and no exercise (heart faliure). 90,000 dies in motor accidents. 28,000 people is killed by firearms a year. Where are the tough actions preventing theese much worse sources of death?
9/11 was just an excuse to implement the police state the Neocons always wanted. The things the US hated the most about Russia is now being implemented and the US citizens is just watching on. As long as the media is pumping out false and outrageous propaganda it wont change either.
Damn im glad i dont live in the US!
HTTP/1.1 400
PATRIOT acts on YOU!
Sorry, couldn't resist. But seriously. At a time when Russia is just becoming a functioning democracy, I think this is actually pretty ironic.
> no, yes, maybe (tagging beta)
Rise up, overthrow the Giant Lizard Tyrants!
But seriously folks, this is getting scary.
Greenpeace has been charged as a terrorist organisation because some members climbed up on a roof and unfolded a "NO GM PIGS" banner. The government is invoking a "anti-terror" law that was rushed through by the right-wing government.
Remember this is the country where Bjorn Lomborg was given a post as a director of an Environmental Institute.
Fascists are really grabbing for power around the world.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
I'm one step ahead of them. I chose Citibank, so my information has already been leaked!
Home of the free, land of the brave.
It's easy to say from across the pond, I know -- but you guys..
So it would appear the plan is to protect your freedom by taking it away from you. Way to go.
Sure if you believe the terrorists "hate our freedom" and want to destroy it, these measures may appear to make some kind of sense.
But the fact is most of these terrorists don't mind your freedom, they mind US foreign policy which is supporting their dictators and exploiting their peoples. They are not fighting the US, they are fighting the US' ruthless protection of corporate interests overseas.
Add to that the sheer hypocrisy of imposing measures on others (e.g. no trade tariffs, no agricultural subsidies, no profileration of WMD, etc) while openly refusing to impose same on yourselves.. Frankly, although I despise violence even more than imperialism, I think I understand why people would fight that tooth and nail.
I really hope that you will stop this madness from within -- otherwise the next 911 is just waiting to happen.. And I hate to say it but that one will be your own goddamn fault.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
I'm ready to start taking action. I'm ready for civil disobediance, public demonstration and if it comes to it even more drastic action. Actually, I think I just might contact the UW campus and see if I can arraneg a demonstration here in downtown Seattle in the next couple of weeks.
We do not have to assume that our Senators and Congressmen are "stupid" to explain what they do when they're doing stupid things. If you have paid any attention at all to history, you will see that nations do their worst when they are led by a small cadre of despicable people who have managed to position themselves in such a way as to manipulate the appearances of truth, leaving good men (and women) with the choice of following along, or falling from power entirely. Just watching the follies on the hill that surrounded the tradition of fillibustering judicial nominations should be evidence enough of the truth behind the manipulations of our government. Your post needed one more option: "Outmaneuvered on the chessboard of government (being led around by a small group of evil men)"
Vote?
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
Amnesty international used the word "Gulag" to provoke a reaction and got an amazing over-reaction. If democracy and human rights have any chance off success then the American people must take that report seriously and demand the "detention" centers be opened up to scrutiny and the people within them given due process. Hiding people in a "black hole" run by the military is by definition the opposite of a freedom loving country. If the US cannot demonstrate the rule of law by example then it does not deserve anymore respect than a warlord in a cave.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
As the federal system gets more and more police state like, I want neighbors who are like minded.
Here in New Hampshire, even with just over a hundred people moved, we're already making a difference.
Put aside your preconceptions about New Hampshire (it's not THAT cold, people), about Libertarians (We're a wide mix of positions, from very moderate to extreme), about politics (NH's system is amazingly and uniquely open, and forget 20K, just a few thousand activists could make a huge difference here), and most of all, about liberty and freedom (What are you going to tell your children about what you did when they took your rights away bit by bit?)
Check out the Free State Project now... we don't need 20K activists to move to make a difference, we just need you.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Keep voting Republican and a police state is what you'll get. It's not like their agenda is secret or anything...
The committee that proposed expansion of the Patriot Act was the Senate Intelligence Committee - their job (among others) is to facilitate intelligence gathering.
This is a pretty far cry from getting something all the way through Congress.
we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
From the article:
"I BELIEVE that God wants me to be president." What? Did George Bush really say that? Does the president imagine he has a divine mission?
Well, he was quoted to that effect by Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention. The full quote, however, does not quite sound as if Mr Bush is labouring to scrap the republic and replace it with a theocracy. "But if that doesn't happen, that's okay," the president continued, "I have seen the presidency up close and personal. I know it's a sacrifice, and I don't need it for personal validation."
He's socially conservative and fiscally incompentant, but still, he's not Tom DeLay or Bill First. Those are the scary ones.
http://www.mdrails.com/images/marc_marshal.jpg
A real picture from a poster in a train station in america apparently...
Hmmm...
It's really whole new territory.
If you breath into a paper bag for a few minutes then look at USAPA carefully, what you find is a bunch of restratints on how the executive branch operates removed; restraints that could slow down response in a "ticking time bomb" scenario. This kind of thing wouldn't have helped in the 9/11 scenario, but might have helped had had our act together an caught wind of the operation as it was unfolding.
My sense is these are not completely unreasonable changes; but the law was poorly conceived because it didn't introduce any mechanism that would audit the use of the expanded powers. I don't think that would pose any practical barrier to quick action. If you think that there are terrorists somewhere on I95 with a huge truck bomb, then do what you have to do, and we will sort things out later.
So, if the USAPA needs changing, it needs mechanisms of accountability built in to examine the executive's actions in a putative "ticking timb bomb scenario", after the need for desperate action has passed. That way, you don't create dank dark corners in which all kinds of nasty things could breed.
What makes the changes proposed here interesting is that they're not just removing restrictions on the executive branch -- they're proposing that the executive branch have powers that have heretofore been only granted to the judicial. They're proposing, in effect, an unofficial change in the constitution. A small one from some standpoints, but it's a shift of power between the branches of government. Up until now, if some government official wanted to poke around in my files, he'd better be able to convince a judge -- a judge who doesn't report to the same boss as him.
And still -- no accountability for how this power is used.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
There is obviously a notable lack of understanding of senate procedure here.
The expanded Patriot act is "out of committee." Now the full senate has to vote on it, the house needs to get their similar bill out of committee and they need to vote on it, and the president has to sign it.
There is no question that if it goes to the president he will sign it, but the bill may not make it out of the senate.
Modular Redundancy--Because 4 out of 5 Nodes agree
You do not go far enough. For freedom and democracy to prevail, we should carry it further. Why should some old piece of paper block the will of the majority elected government? A constitution is inherently tyrannical; it says that there are things that the government, elected by the people, cannot do. What an insult to the principles of liberty that we hold dear!
If the government, voted in by the people, wishes to pass a law then it should be able to do so. That's democracy. Anything else is liberal tyranny and should be abolished.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
I have a slightly offtopic question. Namely, I was wondering why the politics section in Slashdot has a white hat as its symbol, when all the stories seem to be about politicians doing bad things ?
Wouldn't a black hat be more appropriate ? Maybe even Darth Vader's helmet ?-)
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Step 1: Constitution
If this step is done right it should protect citizens from the government, each other and outside forces.
Step 2: Law enforcement and homeland security
Write laws dictating how those constitutional rights will be protected and how this will be financed. Execute the plan.
Step 3: Sit back and relax
Any law passed after this will only increase the power of the government to harm the citizens. A perfect constitution would, in theory, prevent this from happening.
Like the subject reads, this is just Government in theory. Government in practice always seems to fail miserably at all three steps and wind up with so much legislation that no single person could understand it all.
That's what I thought...
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Libertarian movements like these are popping up in Europe as well. In Iceland (my home country), a libertarian party will be an option for voters in the next congressional elections in 2007. I know who I'll be voting for.
Governments, in general, are getting way too big. Their power over their citizens is overwhelming and we need to stand up and do something about it.
Americans: Join that movement!
Yes. A little perspective here, please. Whatever you think of this proposal to expand the Patriot Act, recognize that it is only a proposal. The original article states:
/.:
The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval...
The FBI has gained nothing. No laws have been changed. There is no new secret, Judge-free subpoena power. It is possible that there will be such a power in the future, but this is just one of the very first steps needed to get it done.
Other commenters in this thread have bemoaned that poor state of education in the US, that so many citizens don't know what rights they have. Well, it's not quite as grand as all that, but here's a little civics lesson for those of you whose main political information comes from
Laws in this country must be passed in both the Senate and the House. The process is often very messy and cantankerous. Even a very popular bill can get stalled using different parlementary techniques, and it is not uncommon that a bill that looked unbeatable in January will end up dying in some comittee and not passing by the end of the year. More controversial bills are even harder to get through, and there is a very complicated chess game that goes on in which bills are ammended and revised as they move through the process.
This particular bill apparently passed the Senate Intelligence Commite, 11-4, a couple of days ago. If you look in more serious news accounts, they make it a lot more clear that no new powers have been granted, and this is but merely the opening salvo in a long Congressional negotiation on this topic.
From here, the bill travels to the Senate Judiciary Committe, where "Feinstein and other Democrats planned to again offer amendments." Even if it makes it through there as-is, it would need to be considered by the whole Senate. Even if it passes there, a parallel bill will have been going through an analogous process in the House. Those two bills probably won't be the same by the time they pass both houses of Congress, so from there it's off to the joint committee to come up with a "compromise version" that everyone expects will pass both houses. Finally, the House of Representatives and Senate both vote on the final version, and, if it passes, it goes to the President for his signature.
It is quite impossible to say at this point if some provision voted into a bill in an early Senate committee is going to make it into law.
I believe concerns about this particular provision of the bill to be a bit misplaced. As best as I can determine, this takes the existing system for issuing subpoenas to companies for relevant documentation that exists in "foreign intelligence" cases and applies the same standard in domestive "terrorism" cases. So, for example, if the CIA turned up evidence that someone trained in Pakistan and is a member of Al Qaeda, as it stands right now, they could issue a subpoena without a Judge's prior approval to gather information from (i.e.) the phone company to try to build a case against him. However, if the FBI determined that a purely domestic terrorist was planning on blowing something up, they would not be able to use the same power.
I would like to see a frank and open debate in this country about the privacy and expectation of privacy of records owned by companies. Under the existing US Constitution and laws, if I make a phone call, the record of that phone call belongs to the phone company, not me. The phone company has no fourth amendment protection against "unreasonable searches and seziures," and it is therefore much easier, from a constitutional basis, to get a warrent to request some documents. As well, the phone company has no particular interest in fighting such requests, so it complies with the
Am I the only one who noticed this is just now leaving the Senate Intelligence committee, and has yet to be voted upon by the Senate as a whole, let alone the House? Seriously, people, it's all well and good to be paranoid, but wait until this is actually law. The only thing to do now is write your senators.
... they won't let you leave from the big house with bars.
You might be well advised to find a better government sooner rather than later should you do so at all. As a citizen of another country with an arguably "better government" (Australia) I'd like to point out that (a) we're trying as hard as we can to be as stupid as America, and (b) Please, please, please put your vote to stopping this stupidity at it's source instead. If all the sane, smart Americans leave we're all f**ed.
Besides mouthing off in Slashdot, now is the time you need to contact your senators and express (in a polite and professional way) your displeasure with this bill. Chances are your senators do not read Slashdot, so they don't know what you're thinking if you don't contact them.
So either pick up the phone, or get out pen, paper, and a postage stamp.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Where the FUCK is the judicial branch? Hello? Checks and balances? Wake up, courts! Congress is planning to expand their craptastic Patriot Act so that the executive branch can go gathering information WITHOUT YOUR APPROVAL. Seriously, if I was a judge, I'd be so incredibly pissed off. I'd like to hope that this would never make it by the Supreme Court, but I'm beginning to think that's too much to hope for. Disclaimer: I'm a conservative, but I no longer consider myself a Republican. The actions recently on behalf of both parties is reprehensible. The government stopped working for the people a long time ago. One almost wants to say "revolution," but then that would make you the "T" word wouldn't it?
--------
This isn't the sig you're looking for. Move along.
So that's where all the old STASI people went after the fall of communism.
:)
They're alive and well and running America
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
"For the republic for which it stands..." Welcome to the American Democracy!
Can someone who isn't already a Libertarian tell me what a republic is? I thought not. On the surface they look the same- they both vote. But in a republic you have RIGHTS some of which are inalienable and others which are granted by consitutions. No one may violate your rights without first going through the steps ("Due Process")
It is in a democracy that you have no rights, though there are votes. The majority may vote themseves any privialge they wish. They can vote your wife, mother, or sister to be community property. Such an act is repugnant to a republic.
With the Patriot Act, and the subsequent expansion, we are venturing down a road where "Due Process" is a mere inconviennce or completely disregardable. Forget rights, lets turn this into a demoracy because it is more convienent for the governement. Hogwash. Governing was never meant to be easy. I'll show you "easy governing" it's called a dictatorship. WE CANNOT ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE. Due Process is a requirement of any "republic".
Stop the slippage now. Write your senators and represenatives. Vote Libertarian. Restore the Republic!
"So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause?" - Amadalia, SWIII:RotS
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
thinking:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
I am NaN
"I think it's time for a new chancellor. A strong chancellor!"
As a german I must say we had this before, a democrcy being turned into a dictatorship and I think that's where Lucas borrowed from in the prequels. I can see some of these tendencies in the US too. And I must say I am worried...
The problem is not Republicans, or Democrats, or Greens, or Libertarians, or any other group that decided they'd get some recognition if they labeled themselves with a sophisticated-sounding word.
The problem is that people are stupid. That's all. Personally, yes, I would love to have the freedom to say and think and do whatever I like, but I'm totally unconvinced that people in the US or anywhere else are intellectually equipped to handle anything remotely like freedom.
If you're one of the people who actually thinks logically and rationally about things: sorry, but you're in a very small minority, which would explain why elections don't turn out the way you'd like.
There's more than enough tyranny for both Russia and America to sink into dictatorships! Why be greedy?
I wish that my inferiority complex were as good as yours.
-RenderHead
but only Congress can take it away.
Dissent is dead and buried. Sure, while you might not automatically be arrested attending a protest, you can be guaranteed that the people in power will ignore you, and that their cronies and financiers (who control the media) will either marginalize you and your cause or portray you in the worst possible light.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
1) Captured while violating or being in the company of those violating the international laws of war and performing or appearing to perform Terrorist acts against the US.
2) There is no torture at Gitmo. The living conditions of the Guards is more sparse and regulated than those of the prisoners.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
Well, it has to be challenged and make it into the courts before the courts could do anything about it.
This is an extremely important point. It is not unusual for the Congress to pass unconstitutional laws. But the courts can't do anything about them until until they hear a case concerned with them. Some of this has already ocurred.
So this is why Supreme Court nominations are even more important than these individual Acts in the long run.
Their children and grand children haven't learned these lessons of history as well as some of our contemporaries in Germany, Russia and other parts of Europe. As the leading example, no pun intended, we have today a child of a Veteran of World War II in the White House, leading the charge to trade a reduction in civil rights in this country for promised increases in security. On the bright side, there is a debate going on here, a public debate. Consider Bruce Schneier's recent book Beyond Fear, which seeks to help us learn how to consider the trade-offs that security decisions require at all levels, personal and societal.
The terrorists who struck The World Trade Center want a world run by an archaic, theocratic totalitarianism with eye-for-an-eye style justice meted out by them and their hand-picked like-minded sociopaths. When we give up civil rights to fight terrorism, the terrorists gain ground. However, we have many checks and balances here and we are a very long way from sliding into totalitarianism of any sort here in the U.S. Unfortunately there are many people who don't see the slippery slope when they step out upon it.
Back on the bright side, today we have more interaction between the people of different countries than ever before. The internet provides opportunity for dialog between the citizens of different countries which is historically unprecedented. German students come to the U.S. and talk to their friends about history, Russian emigrants in the U.S. talk to their friends about what's happening now in Russia, and how strange it is to see things like secret subpoenas and detention without charges and trials in the U.S. I've heard examples of both groups express surprise in conversations with young Americans ignorant of history, "Don't you realize this is how Fascism starts?" With fear. Yoda got that right, for sure. As a citizen of the United States I would like to thank you for remembering and reminding us. There are many of us here who appreciate your patience. We are a young country, but an old Democracy. With your help, we will make it through this without sliding into an Orwellian 1984, nor a Fascistic 1934.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
from Eddie Izzard:
"Two languages in one head? No one can live at that speed!"
"But the Dutch speak three languages and smoke marijuana..."
"Yes, but they're cheating"
I would like to petition the government for an amendment to the U.S. Constitution which will read as follows:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
If we only had some language like that in the Constitution we'd be protected from these expanding government powers. But I doubt that enough elected officials or the people would ever support such a radical notion.
YEs, the US and Soviets sold them to him, and he used them against IRAN and the Kurds. He refused to prove that he had disposed of them and blocked the inspectors trying to find out.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Mundus Vult Decipi
They are not ultra-conservative. They are Pro-state. An ultra conservative judge would read the constitution, understand it, and then declare much of what the federal government does unconstitutional.
BTW, do not call them neo-cons. Call them Nazi-cons. It better describes their worldview.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
So this is how Liberty dies--to thunderous applause.
I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
I've got a family to provide for. I can't tell you how many times I've had to step back and reconsider speaking out on issues of concern. The last thing I want is to be labeled a terrorist sympathizer because I don't approve of things that my government is doing. Hell, I'm even worring now about posting this as non-anonymous... but damn it, this is insane! I should never have to worry about this kind of crap in my own country. Wow, this is all so screwed up, and everyone around me can only see abortion and gays as the sole issues of discourse when it comes to an election. Argggg...
I just finished reading Baghdad Year Zero. Thanks for passing it along. It was tremendously informative and insightful. A must-read for anyone who thinks like a journalist and just follows the money.
Real conservatives have let fake Conservatives steal their name. In exchange for getting carried along with the power grab. Except few actual conservatives have any power in the deal, and the fake conservatives use their unprecedented power to destroy much of what true conservatives value. In the bargain, though, lots of true conservatives have become fake conservatives. Because they value the power more than they value what they used to say they would conserve, until they had to actually do it.
--
make install -not war
And you got it. 9/11 brought out the real vengeance aspect of the American public. Whats funny in a very sith sort of way is that the only ones (besides Iraqi civilians) who are getting the short end of the revenge are the American public. Bush and his buddies knew within nano-seconds that 9/11 was their big break, their great once in a lifetime opportunity to push through this kind of crap legislation. Why? Because if you voted against it you weren't (ahem) "patriotic"... When was the last time the term "Homeland" was used with such broad applications by a government?
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
For me, this is what started it all: http://www.justacitizen.com/articles_documents/May 14-05-Gagged%20but%20not%20Dead.htm It's unreal.
Sometimes you think these guys have spent a LOT of time studying the Nazi takeover in Germany and 1984.
Who wants to bet that Co-Intel Pro (or the modern equivalent) is already up and running again.
Me must give up our freedoms to keep our freedoms. Hah, I'll take rampant terrorism over THEIR brand of freedom.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Well, on the other hand...
- The UK has a network of surveillance cameras that America's authoritarians can only dream about.
- The UK just had an election in which electoral fraud is strongly suspected, because the postal vote system was left open to abuse.
- In 2001 the Home Secretary described civil liberties as an "airy fairy" concern.
- The RIP Act makes routine surveillance of ordinary citizens a reality. It goes even further than the PATRIOT act, in that it requires ISPs to develop and install monitoring software at their expense, and makes it a criminal offense to refuse to incriminate yourself by handing over your encryption keys on demand. Oh, and it also makes it an offense to tell anyone you're being investigated or that you have been forced to hand over your keys, so much for freedom of speech.
- The UK also amended the law in the 90s so that refusing to incriminate yourself could be used as evidence against you in court--i.e. there is no "right to silence".
- The current government is set on introducing a mandatory identity card with biometric features.
- The UK Official Secrets act allows people to be put on trial for crimes against the state, without being told what they actually did. (i.e. the evidence against them can be ruled secret under the act).
- Even though the ruling party deliberately lied to the country to support a war on Iraq, they were still voted back in with a huge majority--just like the situation in the US.
- The Criminal Justice Act of 2003 suspended the right to trial by jury, and suspended the "double jeopardy" limits, allowing the state to continue to harass people indefinitely.
- The new Home Secretary is now trying to undermine the right to a fair trial.
- The UK government handed over power over intellectual property legislation to the WTO, just like America did. Tough luck if you don't like software patents; the government doesn't have the power to decide not to allow them, because of the GATT TRIPS treaties signed in the 90s. (Signed even though many of us wrote letters to politicians, protested, etc.)
One of the reasons I left the UK is because the country is so damn complacent. For some reason, UK citizens don't care about the UK's lurch towards fascism; they're too busy looking at America and feeling smug. At least Americans seem to be aware of, and care about, their country becoming a fascist state, even if they are powerless to stop it.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
of a sinister shadow lurking, waiting to enslave us all is childish and should be left
at the movies.
The reason you find it hard to believe is that you are probably a human who wouldn't knowingly harm others for personal gain. However. . , it is entirely probable that the same kind of psychopathic behavior which led to the collapse of Enron and the trillion-dollar piracy which devastated more than 20 other huge corporations in the same six month period is also comfortably installed in the halls of government.
There are monsters out there, they lie amazingly well, have enormous charisma, and they are naturally drawn to and vie for positions of power from which to inflict their misery and chaos upon the world. Psychopathy is not a myth. It is a medically proven reality, and it is active in the world right now.
This does not mean that ALL of the government is bad. But it does mean that the highest seats of power are almost certainly occupied by a number of individuals with no compassion or ethics and who are hell-bent on torturing the world. Judge the tree by the fruit it bears!
Bush's weird speach and dialogue problems are typical of the psychopathic mind. Psychopaths who have been caught and studied illustrate this. Look it up. There's a lot of information for those who are willing to learn.
Either directly or indirectly a portion of the American government orchestrated the attack on 9-11 specifically to create the current situation.
Everybody has heard this before, and anybody who bothers to investigate the matter properly, (that is, beyond reading poorly researched and outright false articles in Popular Science, will come to the same conclusion. --If they have the courage to overcome the mountains of state-installed mind-programming and look the beast in the face without flinching.
-FL
There is this new thing called civil-disobedience, some Indian guy invented it I think. People could concievably try that one out too...
Expanding the patriot act will make the law enforcement agencies better able to do their job (i.e. more efficient). That's not necessarily a good thing. There is another name for efficient government. Fascist dictatorships. The US Government is the most powerful in the world. The worst thing that could happen would be for it to also be the most efficient in the world. The Italians commented under Mussolini that he had the trains running on time. Efficient.
The founding fathers designed this government to be inefficient & slow, with checks and balances to impede legislation. Freedom means accepting risk.
We should not be so afraid of risk that we are willing to give up freedom and privacy. We put up with greater risks every day and don't take such extreme precautions. We drive down the street in 2 ton automobiles within feet of drivers we don't know. We go to work in buildings with hundreds of people we don't know. Risk is all around us. As a matter of fact, the entire US system of government is based on increased risk in favor of freedom. A simple example is the basic idea that a person innocent until proven guilty. That assumption assures that more guilty people will go free than innocent people will go to jail. We, as a society agree we are willing to walk among dangerous criminals so that we do not endanger the freedom of individuals.
Laws build up, they don't expire. Even those with built in expiration dates like the Patriot act don't go away when they expire, they get bigger. National ID cards restrict travel, expanding the Patriot Act reduces freedom of expression, national "public" schooling makes us think both are OK.
Abandon the two party system (there are really only minor differences between them anyway) and vote for an oddball.
Suggestion Slashdot editors - How about reporting "the Senate Intelligence Committee is GOING to vote on the Patriot Act next month" instead of "It seems that the patriot act is being expanded rather than scaled back AFTER a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee." Your way reports the news & let's us all complain about how we all just lost some freedom. My way lets us mobilize and tell our representatives what we think.
Something most people are missing (some, like Declan, intentionally), is that you do not lose your right to have judicial oversight of the subpoena. You have the right to get judicial review of the subpoena before complying with it. Maybe that's not a good thing, but all those who imply that our Fourth Amendment rights are being violated are simply incorrect. Maybe the spirirt is being violated; that's a judgment call, but it certainly is not as bad as many make it out to be.
Funny how when you learn more about something, it's often not as bad as it first seems.
Thanks for this post. I especially appreciated this line, but not for it's intended purpose. Frankly, it made me cringe....
The terrorists who struck The World Trade Center want a world run by an archaic, theocratic totalitarianism with eye-for-an-eye style justice meted out by them and their hand-picked like-minded sociopaths.
You know why? Because from my perspective, those hard line "conservatives" (very large air quotes) who run our government speak about this daily...
A slogan of the Texas republican party (of whom George W Bush is the most prominent member) states "The Republican Party of Texas affirms that the United States is a Christian nation." Several right-wing organizations actively state "Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government." Among other things, the push for Christian Theocracy is more thinly veiled at the top reaches of our power structure (and actually spoken openly in some circles) than it has been since 15th century Puritans.
In addition, today's "conservatives" are leading the push to increased usage of the Death penalty and increasing mandatory sentences while reducing or in some cases completely removing the judiciary's ability to diverge from these mandatory requirements due to extenuating circumstances. This is the first time in America, at least since the Salem Witch trials where the punishment for certain crimes far outstrips the damage or harm caused by that crime. One great example involves "crimes against children". While there are serious crimes perpetrated, the sentencing for such crimes has grown significantly out of proportion with actual research findings showing harm and danger to children. A simple pat on the butt or even a hand on the shoulder can net a mandatory minimum sentence of more than 10 years, though studies show that non-penetrative abuse is statistically shown to have very small long term effects on children when the issue is treated with open discussion, trust and patience.
Small-time drug usage also has been shown to have statistically very little negative effect on society as a whole, but is punished with ever-increasing sentences that far outstrip the crime.
On top of this, top officials in our government often speak of the courts or opposition parties as "getting in the way of progress" when they strike down things like the patriot II and DMCA or the Internet Decency Act... when in reality they are struck down because they grossly infringe on our rights as citizens and people. The proper reaction is to be embarassed that they would make the MISTAKE of outstripping their power,but instead they vow revenge and simply re-write the bills with more "sneaky" language to see if they can get them passed in a second round of voting.
Then, they push laws giving the executive branch power to overrule (war powers act) and oversee (2001 PROTECT act) the legislative branch and judicial branch. Soon, they are appointing chairmen sympathetic to their cause regardless of their qualifications to handle the job and instituting collective organizations through wich they can better consolidate the power base and coordinate covert activities and actions. And a small bit of trivia, KGB loosely translates to "Comittee for Motherland Security" through which most Soviet intelligence and covert operations took place. That was Stalin's equivalent to consolidate his power into a single state entity that reported directly to him rather than to other arms of his power base.
I won't even go into the list of seven countries who have directly violated UN resolutions in the last 5 years (S Korea, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, US) or the countries that have executed minors in the last 25 years (Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, US) or the first-world countries that currently prisioners without trial and without recourse (uhhh US, maybe Russia, China, if they count) or should I point out that the US was the second greatest contributor to what are referred to today as "terrorist organizations", as recent
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
I've been called a 'troll' several times too, but mostly by small-minded people that didn't like what I had to say, because it involved criticism.
But so what? It's proof one is doing something good, I say, if people try to use a common fallacy (claiming someone is a troll to invalidate what he says, while, even *IF* he was a troll, it still wouldn't say anything about the validity of *what* he said) to shut you up.
That said - and mind you, I have had experience with (the stiffling of) free speech, as one can see on my blog - I do think slashdot is one of the greatest systems invented yet, to allow ALL people their free speech. It is true: things that are considered crap get a low rating, and people can decide to skip that, but in principle, you ARE given the possibility to speak your mind and to be read by the public that wishes so.
Look at this thread: even while you are on 'troll, -1' I still read your post, and I still replied.
So, first of all, I doubt you are being targeted for political reasons; slashdot may have a 'libertarian' viewpoint most of the time, there are enough zealots from the right and left (both to the extremes and not) to be pretty balanced on the pure political side.
But, even if you *are* being targeted for political reasons, it is incorrect to claim your right to free speech has been taken away. If they would *delete* it, yes, then you might have a point. But because the readers rate your postings low, does not mean you are derived of your free speech right on this forum, IMHO.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
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