Slashdot Mirror
Patriot Act to be Expanded
m4dm4n writes "It seems that the patriot act is being expanded rather than scaled back after a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee. The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, as well as the ability to designate subpoenas as secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison."
... land of the free?
Anyone get the feeling we're becoming more and more of a police state?
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
They can do whatever they want without any judges or other laws having to say anything about it and when you go public (or to your lawyer) you go to prison? Isn't that a human rights violation?
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Eurasian spies are everywhere....
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
Yet another step is assuring freedom will overcome terrorism!
It's just too bad Bush can't have a third term. How will we be safe when he is gone?!
best first post ever.
Kinda makes one wonder when the first people start disappearing. Maybe they already have. At least the commie witch hunts of the 1950's were internal. But you're beginning to scare your neighbors now.
The perception of US 'freedom' is being undermined on a daily basis just like pieces of wood being removed from a jenga tower.
/glad I'm european.
Wonder how long you've got before it topples.
tom-george.comBecause geeks rate higher t
It's a joke. Laugh troll mods!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeroy_Jenkins
Crap and I don't even play the WoW.
Five years ago, before Bush and his administration came to office, my heartfelt wish was "if only I had lived in America rather than Europe". After five years of Bush in office, my heartfelt bliss is that I lived in Europe rather than America.
The solution to your problems as a resident of the United States may be at hand.
In Soviety USA, lame joke applies to YOU.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
It seems like every bit of political news I get these days makes me think a little bit more about not going back. It saddens me to say this but it's true. Apathy is killing our country. We need to remind people that our empire is not unlike others before. They all fell apart. Ours will too.
When I tell an object to delete this, am I killing it or telling it to kill me?
The best thing about these new laws is there won't be any evidence of abuse of power - anyone who squeaks will be locked up and have their reputation destroyed, its like getting rid of free speech without actually getting rid of it: genius!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
..before we have to start registering our websites like China is requiring now. Even little old ladies can be terrorists or pirates (RIAA anyone?) nowadays. Start hiding that pr0n collection, because Big Brothers coming.
I remember George Bush said that the terrorist _will_ not win. It looks like they have already won to me.
"...we fear that the designation of information as classified in some cases [brought forth by Sibel Edmonds] serves to protect the executive branch against embarrassing revelations and full accountability... Releasing declassified versions of these reports, or at least portions or summaries, would serve the public's interest, increase transparency, promote effectiveness and efficiency at the FBI, and facilitate Congressional oversight." U.S. Senators Patrick Leahy (D-VT) and Charles Grassley (R-IA) in a Letter to Attorney General John Ashcroft http://www.justacitizen.com/
Living in Australia I obviously have no first hand experience of how this affects the lives of ordinary Amercians, but my view (however influenced by the media that may be) is that it seems the privacy of every single citizen is being eroded slowly with every piece of legislation lodged. It's true we are living in a uncertain age, but how far can the government go protecting its people before it undermines the people's trust in the government? Personally I think the government could be doing more in the protection of its citizens without intruding on their privacy (more). Enough is enough.
The fact that he publicly stated this is where it gets interersting, because this leaves open (IMHO) 3 options for the US government:
- US government does not know what Osama said was his reason for attacking the US, and therefor simply react how Osama wants them to react; in this case US government consists of a bunch of morons
- US government knows *damn well* what Osama said and do Osamas bidding, because it suits them well in becoming more like Big Brother
- US government knows what Osama said, but think he is lying. Question is: why would a terrorist be lying? A terrorist wants to get his way, so there is no use in lying about what you want to accomplish through terrorism. Like option 1, US government is filled with morons.
So, US government is either too dumb for words or wants to be like Big Brother. Don't know which of the two is more scary.Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
How can our representatives not see that they are bastardizing our constitutional rights so bad that our forefathers are turning in their graves so hard that they're tunneling out of their coffins. How do the reps not see that we don't really want these rules. George Bush and the reps scream freedom from the tops of their lungs while at the same time strip more and more freedoms away from their own people. Why is it so bad to get judge approval for document retrieval? Yes, it may take a little more work and time, but we need checks and balances, not law enforcers becoming judge and jury on a whim. Along with secret subpeonas, and the rest of the patriot act, they're taking our whole legal system underground and out of our hands. I can't believe how quickly they're trying to take away the fundamentals that make us US Americans, but I'm even more surprised at the rate they're succeeding at it.
"Plans are for fools! Oglethorpe, the plutonian (Aqua Teen Hunger Force)
+5, insightful
+5, informative
+5 years in prison!
The FBI asked /. to hand out certain ip addresses.
This is hilarious. In my country (Australia) we *have* no patriotic act, and also, we dropped two thirds of our national anthem because, well, we really couldn't be bothered singing the entire thing. It's like, we're... America on opposite day.
Commodore64_love: I don't comprehend people who're so frightened of death that they'll bankrupt themselves to stay alive
Remember all those people you learn about in school, the ones who tried "civil disobedience"? Well, the thing is, many people nowadays feel too proud to do anything, and because they feel that everything that our country is sticking under our noses is good for us, then of course we're going to put this way. That's why no matter what happens, if a piece of jurisdiction gets by that prevents freedom from being protected, then we don't sit around and let it happen. As long as you make your voice heard loud and clear, and don't do stupid stuff like PETA (getting off topic..) then you can make sure we don't end up getting pushed around. The Government serves us, not the other way around.
... Hey, at least here in Australia we have nice beaches and beautiful women and our governing body is just stupid, not totally morally corrupt. Yet.
Not an American myself, but I'd suspect that you're exactly the kind of person who should be going back to the US to stand up for what you believe in and help turn the current political climate around.
Dude, somebody stole my freedom!!!!
[well I'm not from the US, but I thought it was called for]
Stupid (being led around by a small group of evil men)?
Evil? Trying to take over the world?
Or are they possibly better informed than you and doing what they think we need done?
hmmmm.... fully briefed heads of state of large country... geeks on a discussion board....
Think about it.
Agile Artisans
As I expected, many +5 insightful comments have appeared, claiming that american democracy is dead, or that the U.S. is approaching the police state, and so on. I really encourage you folks to try a broader perspective. Of course, those new laws are bad, and abusing citizens' rights, but
1. It's nowhere near the situation during, for example, maccarthyism. Read something about the period. People were out of jobs (or forced out of the country!) for no reason at all, other that they were untruthfully accused of sympathizing with communists. And yet, American democracy survived this, and -- if anything -- became only stronger. Really, you should have more faith in the system's built-in mechanisms. It worked amazingly well for two hundred years.
2. There is absolutely no comparison with the real police states, which are, unfortunately, still very common on our miserable planet. I think, It's insulting for the tortured to death victims in Iran, or China, or Russia, to even compare the minor inconveniences that Americans suffer with the police state actions. Looking from most of the Earth, America is land of the free, regardless how funny you may find this claim.
You US citizens need to put things in perspective. 2,823 died in that attack. Thats very sad but damnit, its not even a drop in the ocean compared to other dangerous things. Almost a million a year dies of off bad diet and no exercise (heart faliure). 90,000 dies in motor accidents. 28,000 people is killed by firearms a year. Where are the tough actions preventing theese much worse sources of death?
9/11 was just an excuse to implement the police state the Neocons always wanted. The things the US hated the most about Russia is now being implemented and the US citizens is just watching on. As long as the media is pumping out false and outrageous propaganda it wont change either.
Damn im glad i dont live in the US!
HTTP/1.1 400
PATRIOT acts on YOU!
Sorry, couldn't resist. But seriously. At a time when Russia is just becoming a functioning democracy, I think this is actually pretty ironic.
> no, yes, maybe (tagging beta)
Rise up, overthrow the Giant Lizard Tyrants!
But seriously folks, this is getting scary.
like we criticised the hardline Russian government with their nearly unlimited investigative power that existed without any judicial oversite(KGB) and called it a bad thing that such an agency existed to police it's own citizens and now with every expansion of the patriot act we are becoming that which we fought so hard to destroy. I suppose we can gather in a circle and sing kumbaya and hope that the FBI doesn't use it's expanded powers against ordinary citizens, but when has a police agency not abused powers like this when THEY deemed it neccessary? If they weren't hoping to use these powers in an unlimited fashion then why was the wording of the powers expressed so vaugely? Why have no judicial oversite if you are planning on doing things above board and ethically?
Greenpeace has been charged as a terrorist organisation because some members climbed up on a roof and unfolded a "NO GM PIGS" banner. The government is invoking a "anti-terror" law that was rushed through by the right-wing government.
Remember this is the country where Bjorn Lomborg was given a post as a director of an Environmental Institute.
Fascists are really grabbing for power around the world.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
looks like its time to move to Canada.
"...ability to designate subpoenas as secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison."
Sounds a lot like double secret probation to me :)
I'm one step ahead of them. I chose Citibank, so my information has already been leaked!
You:
An uncompromised bill of rights.
Strong checks and balances between branches.
Separation of church and state.
More afraid of loss of liberty than of "terrorists".
Former communist state a +.
Large "national monument" a ++.
Me:
Currently in a relationship but fear future domestic abuse.
D&D free (except for caffeinne, occasional alcohol and this little spot on my, uh, never mind about that....)
Enjoy long walks, not punctuated by homeland security checkpoints, and snuggling, unmonitored, by the fireplace.
Your offer of citizenship gets mine.
Home of the free, land of the brave.
It's easy to say from across the pond, I know -- but you guys..
So it would appear the plan is to protect your freedom by taking it away from you. Way to go.
Sure if you believe the terrorists "hate our freedom" and want to destroy it, these measures may appear to make some kind of sense.
But the fact is most of these terrorists don't mind your freedom, they mind US foreign policy which is supporting their dictators and exploiting their peoples. They are not fighting the US, they are fighting the US' ruthless protection of corporate interests overseas.
Add to that the sheer hypocrisy of imposing measures on others (e.g. no trade tariffs, no agricultural subsidies, no profileration of WMD, etc) while openly refusing to impose same on yourselves.. Frankly, although I despise violence even more than imperialism, I think I understand why people would fight that tooth and nail.
I really hope that you will stop this madness from within -- otherwise the next 911 is just waiting to happen.. And I hate to say it but that one will be your own goddamn fault.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
nationalist act seems more appropriate. how is america not a fascist state now? i mean what aspects of the great experiment are not corrupted to some degree moreso than should be allowed. and please look up the definition of fascism before replying. i still feel like the freedom of speech laws rival most other countries, but i think that might be it ( of course it is an extremely important thing, the one thing that really prevents any all out dislike of america altogether )
philanthropists need to realize there is a need for philanthropy in the first place
Howard strives daily to make Australia a legal and moral carbon copy of the US. I don't know about you, but that wasn't good enough for me, so I left.
Also like the US, by and large the beautiful women have to be imported from Europe and elsewhere. Why not go to the source...
you had me at #!
I'm ready to start taking action. I'm ready for civil disobediance, public demonstration and if it comes to it even more drastic action. Actually, I think I just might contact the UW campus and see if I can arraneg a demonstration here in downtown Seattle in the next couple of weeks.
"It seems that the patriot act is being expanded rather than scaled back after a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee."
This seems like a contradiction to me...
Vote?
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
Amnesty international used the word "Gulag" to provoke a reaction and got an amazing over-reaction. If democracy and human rights have any chance off success then the American people must take that report seriously and demand the "detention" centers be opened up to scrutiny and the people within them given due process. Hiding people in a "black hole" run by the military is by definition the opposite of a freedom loving country. If the US cannot demonstrate the rule of law by example then it does not deserve anymore respect than a warlord in a cave.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
As the federal system gets more and more police state like, I want neighbors who are like minded.
Here in New Hampshire, even with just over a hundred people moved, we're already making a difference.
Put aside your preconceptions about New Hampshire (it's not THAT cold, people), about Libertarians (We're a wide mix of positions, from very moderate to extreme), about politics (NH's system is amazingly and uniquely open, and forget 20K, just a few thousand activists could make a huge difference here), and most of all, about liberty and freedom (What are you going to tell your children about what you did when they took your rights away bit by bit?)
Check out the Free State Project now... we don't need 20K activists to move to make a difference, we just need you.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
take the Judge Dredd comic books away from Bu$h...
the return of mcCarthism, glad we are moving towards an open society
_ In Egypt Networks: Network Solutions with a Twist
Keep voting Republican and a police state is what you'll get. It's not like their agenda is secret or anything...
The Intel Committee is just the first step. next is judiciary where there's a bit more opposition, notably Senators Feingold and Leahy among the Dems, and the Republican Chair, Arlen Spector. Some version will emerge, likely stripped of the worst provisions. Then the Full senate gets it, with likely battles over Amendments, and a compromise between the Committees' versions.
Meanwhile the House Judiciary Committee is conducting it's own markup, to be followed by a vote of the Full house.
Next, and most dangerous is a Conference Committee, where appointees from the 2 chambers leaderships iron out the differences between the respective Chambers' versions, and their poroduct goes back to the House and Senate for ratification.
Believe it or not, hese guys do notice the feedback from constituents. Yes, they're going to pass some version or other, but exactly what ends up in the soup is still in play. to have an impact, do your homework so that your calls, etc can get to the specific parts you have problems with. the expanded Administrative Subpoenas is a good place to start. Go to ACLU's or EFF's page to get details as to which parts are in play. Phone calls to your Reps and Senators offices work better than standardised emails, finding out when they'll be holding personnal appearances in the home district and catching them face to face is even better. Snailmail is also good, it shows you cared enough to take the time to research and write.
I'm heading to the Wisconsin Democratic Party Convention in Oshkosh Saturday to corner Sen. Herb Kohl, who sits on the judiciary Committee, let him know that unless he becomes part of the solution, I'll run as an Independent, upping the likelyhood he loses to the Republican. (My other Senator, Russ Feingold, and house rep. Tammy baldwin voted against Patriot the 1st time around and are already active trying to limit the renewal.)
Ben Masel: 51,282 votes for US Senate in the Wisconsin Democratic Primary
The committee that proposed expansion of the Patriot Act was the Senate Intelligence Committee - their job (among others) is to facilitate intelligence gathering.
This is a pretty far cry from getting something all the way through Congress.
we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
From the article:
"I BELIEVE that God wants me to be president." What? Did George Bush really say that? Does the president imagine he has a divine mission?
Well, he was quoted to that effect by Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention. The full quote, however, does not quite sound as if Mr Bush is labouring to scrap the republic and replace it with a theocracy. "But if that doesn't happen, that's okay," the president continued, "I have seen the presidency up close and personal. I know it's a sacrifice, and I don't need it for personal validation."
He's socially conservative and fiscally incompentant, but still, he's not Tom DeLay or Bill First. Those are the scary ones.
http://www.mdrails.com/images/marc_marshal.jpg
A real picture from a poster in a train station in america apparently...
Hmmm...
This provision may get shot down as unconstitutional.
well. there was an article con /. linking p2p to terrorism a couple of days ago :/
While you may think your country is a bastion of freedom, there are a number of books which are illegal in Australia under the Publication, Films and Computer Games Enforcement Act of 1995, which provides for a maximum of ten years in jail or a fine of up to $120,000 for possession of certain books.
It's really whole new territory.
If you breath into a paper bag for a few minutes then look at USAPA carefully, what you find is a bunch of restratints on how the executive branch operates removed; restraints that could slow down response in a "ticking time bomb" scenario. This kind of thing wouldn't have helped in the 9/11 scenario, but might have helped had had our act together an caught wind of the operation as it was unfolding.
My sense is these are not completely unreasonable changes; but the law was poorly conceived because it didn't introduce any mechanism that would audit the use of the expanded powers. I don't think that would pose any practical barrier to quick action. If you think that there are terrorists somewhere on I95 with a huge truck bomb, then do what you have to do, and we will sort things out later.
So, if the USAPA needs changing, it needs mechanisms of accountability built in to examine the executive's actions in a putative "ticking timb bomb scenario", after the need for desperate action has passed. That way, you don't create dank dark corners in which all kinds of nasty things could breed.
What makes the changes proposed here interesting is that they're not just removing restrictions on the executive branch -- they're proposing that the executive branch have powers that have heretofore been only granted to the judicial. They're proposing, in effect, an unofficial change in the constitution. A small one from some standpoints, but it's a shift of power between the branches of government. Up until now, if some government official wanted to poke around in my files, he'd better be able to convince a judge -- a judge who doesn't report to the same boss as him.
And still -- no accountability for how this power is used.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Since Land of the Free is no longer totally correct, why don't we call it the "Land of the Relative Freedom."
The objective of politicians is to gain power.
This just combines the two.
You must think in Russian.
There is obviously a notable lack of understanding of senate procedure here.
The expanded Patriot act is "out of committee." Now the full senate has to vote on it, the house needs to get their similar bill out of committee and they need to vote on it, and the president has to sign it.
There is no question that if it goes to the president he will sign it, but the bill may not make it out of the senate.
Modular Redundancy--Because 4 out of 5 Nodes agree
Hey, try being a Tibetan. Okay, that's quite impractical, so read about the recent history of Tibet, picture yourself there, consider the consequences of questioning authority, or looking the wrong way at the wrong person, or being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or just being Tibetan, and picture what objects might be put into what part of your body while your friends wondered where you were.
Ok, Tibet is a bad example, not everbody in the world has the PLA on their doorstep. Try Korea, where you can be arrested, tried, and imprisoned all in one swift move without the involvement of anyone outside the legal system. Or Japan, where you can be held at a police station without trial forever or until they decide they like you. Or Egypt, which is the same except that you might not survive the experience. These are our allies. They're much nicer than Sudan and Azerbaijan and Pakistan and what have you.
Sure, EurAmerica has occasional free-speech ups and downs; the 70s were an up, the 20s were a down, and we're in a minor down now, etc. But really, all EurAmerica's problems take place at a level that is soooooo vastly higher than anything many of the world's people can aspire to that it's funny.
Really, it is funny. There should be some 'Boffo the Oppression Clown' guy who comes in and makes jokes when they arrest you.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
I guess the people who decided that those first few sheets of the Bill of Rights were as good as toilet paper decided to finish off the roll.
So, other than evil, what use are these new laws? Could somone walk me through a legit scenario that doesn't mimic a sub-plot of 1984?
Is the whole Patriot act going to sunset at the end of this year? I know parts of it are supposed to.
How hard is it to 'patch' it with these new rules?
Are we sure that this isn't a way to make the act so odious that it's completely dumped?
Has any major successes or failures been attributed to it?
Has the FBI ever been denied a warrant to get the info that they needed before?
Blogs have spoiled me. I'm used to getting useful information.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Wow! Well that certainly sums it up....
Patriotism is unqualified support for your country always and for politicians when they deserve it.
Mark Twain I believe?
Did anyone here actually READ the article? There are things like:
...."
'But the proposal APPEARS to grant the FBI more power to seek information
and
'IN THEORY, the expand-the-Patriot-Act bill now goes to the Senate floor for a vote. '
Everyone BREATH.
OK....done?
Look at that article. "APPEARS"? "IN THEORY"???
There's NO information in that article about what it is.... but there will be before it comes up for a vote. This came out of a senate panel. Do you have any idea how many things come out of senate panels that never even make it to a real vote, let alone pass both houses of Congress?
You can bet that we'll hear ALL about this from all out congress critters before this is even voted on.
Don't go on information from some reporter about what something APPEARS to be IN THEORY without getting the facts yet... we'll have the facts before it comes up for a vote, and we'll have more than enough to voice our opinions to those congress critters before it becomes law.
Geesh. People are acting like it's already passed and it's law already.
In other news, Slashdot article submitters have no clue how the U.S. Congress works:
The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, as well as the ability to designate subpoenas as secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison.
No, the FBI hasn't gained jack crap, yet . Senate committees may play a large role in the development of bills, but a bill has to get past the entirety of both the House and the Senate, and then get signed by the President, before it becomes a law.
Watch some Schoolhouse Rock or something, people. Or maybe pay attention in middle school.
I have a slightly offtopic question. Namely, I was wondering why the politics section in Slashdot has a white hat as its symbol, when all the stories seem to be about politicians doing bad things ?
Wouldn't a black hat be more appropriate ? Maybe even Darth Vader's helmet ?-)
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Step 1: Constitution
If this step is done right it should protect citizens from the government, each other and outside forces.
Step 2: Law enforcement and homeland security
Write laws dictating how those constitutional rights will be protected and how this will be financed. Execute the plan.
Step 3: Sit back and relax
Any law passed after this will only increase the power of the government to harm the citizens. A perfect constitution would, in theory, prevent this from happening.
Like the subject reads, this is just Government in theory. Government in practice always seems to fail miserably at all three steps and wind up with so much legislation that no single person could understand it all.
And this is why you need a fully working anonymous web, something like http://freenetproject.org/.
Moore's law is not a law. Theory, yes; Predictable trend, certainly; Law, no.
These are some probs I have with the detention center in Guantanamo bay.
.. i never really fought a war on terror and maybe that's what needs to be done to terrorists.
..sort of how Stalin killed a bunch of people for the common good .. we don't need to go killing humans for freedom .. so here is what the Bush administration needs to do.
.. A good first step would be to publish an inambiguous list as to why people are put in there. Cause quite frankly it isn't clear at all.
.. if the military is keeping people in prison without being sure if they are guilty or innocent .. at least they shouldn't torture or abuse or traumatize them ..cause it may be being done to an innocent person ..which is plain wrong any way you slice it .. if you are OK with innocent being tortured .. how would u feel if it was someone you really cared about?
.. these two steps will go a LONG way to resolve the situation seriously .. I was going to write a step 3 .. I mean it would be great to give 'em trials etc. but this debate is being had already and the people who believe in trials are losing.
Well, supposedly people need to be held "in communicado" or whatever cause it will undermine the war on terror.
That's all fine and dandy
But it is undermining freedom to hold innocent people and also it undermines peace to have a reputation as a big bully who runs around abusing people
1) Publish a list of criteria that gets someone thrown into Guantanamo. (Are people put in there because someone (just anybody) files a complaint against them? Are people put there for breaking curfew even if they are not carrying weapons? Right now nobody has any idea of how someone ends up in Guantanamo
2)
Well ok
That's what I thought...
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Libertarian movements like these are popping up in Europe as well. In Iceland (my home country), a libertarian party will be an option for voters in the next congressional elections in 2007. I know who I'll be voting for.
Governments, in general, are getting way too big. Their power over their citizens is overwhelming and we need to stand up and do something about it.
Americans: Join that movement!
Yes. A little perspective here, please. Whatever you think of this proposal to expand the Patriot Act, recognize that it is only a proposal. The original article states:
/.:
The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval...
The FBI has gained nothing. No laws have been changed. There is no new secret, Judge-free subpoena power. It is possible that there will be such a power in the future, but this is just one of the very first steps needed to get it done.
Other commenters in this thread have bemoaned that poor state of education in the US, that so many citizens don't know what rights they have. Well, it's not quite as grand as all that, but here's a little civics lesson for those of you whose main political information comes from
Laws in this country must be passed in both the Senate and the House. The process is often very messy and cantankerous. Even a very popular bill can get stalled using different parlementary techniques, and it is not uncommon that a bill that looked unbeatable in January will end up dying in some comittee and not passing by the end of the year. More controversial bills are even harder to get through, and there is a very complicated chess game that goes on in which bills are ammended and revised as they move through the process.
This particular bill apparently passed the Senate Intelligence Commite, 11-4, a couple of days ago. If you look in more serious news accounts, they make it a lot more clear that no new powers have been granted, and this is but merely the opening salvo in a long Congressional negotiation on this topic.
From here, the bill travels to the Senate Judiciary Committe, where "Feinstein and other Democrats planned to again offer amendments." Even if it makes it through there as-is, it would need to be considered by the whole Senate. Even if it passes there, a parallel bill will have been going through an analogous process in the House. Those two bills probably won't be the same by the time they pass both houses of Congress, so from there it's off to the joint committee to come up with a "compromise version" that everyone expects will pass both houses. Finally, the House of Representatives and Senate both vote on the final version, and, if it passes, it goes to the President for his signature.
It is quite impossible to say at this point if some provision voted into a bill in an early Senate committee is going to make it into law.
I believe concerns about this particular provision of the bill to be a bit misplaced. As best as I can determine, this takes the existing system for issuing subpoenas to companies for relevant documentation that exists in "foreign intelligence" cases and applies the same standard in domestive "terrorism" cases. So, for example, if the CIA turned up evidence that someone trained in Pakistan and is a member of Al Qaeda, as it stands right now, they could issue a subpoena without a Judge's prior approval to gather information from (i.e.) the phone company to try to build a case against him. However, if the FBI determined that a purely domestic terrorist was planning on blowing something up, they would not be able to use the same power.
I would like to see a frank and open debate in this country about the privacy and expectation of privacy of records owned by companies. Under the existing US Constitution and laws, if I make a phone call, the record of that phone call belongs to the phone company, not me. The phone company has no fourth amendment protection against "unreasonable searches and seziures," and it is therefore much easier, from a constitutional basis, to get a warrent to request some documents. As well, the phone company has no particular interest in fighting such requests, so it complies with the
welcome our new unaccountable Federal investigator overlords...
*blinks*
aw, forget it.
It's true no man is an island, but if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, they make a good raft.
It doesn't take much. Just tell them that you know about the committee's vote and how the unchecked power it gives is antithetical to the Constitution.
/ senators_cfm.cfm
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
The once promised democracy and freedom in our country are gone. I can't believe I am actually living in a country that has a gestapo, spies on democratic activists("terrorists"), conducts secret searches, and runs concentration camps.
Am I the only one who noticed this is just now leaving the Senate Intelligence committee, and has yet to be voted upon by the Senate as a whole, let alone the House? Seriously, people, it's all well and good to be paranoid, but wait until this is actually law. The only thing to do now is write your senators.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Find me a senator whose not corrupt and I assure you he/she's a newbie.
No, the senate doesn't represent us, not anymore. They haven't for a long time. They're so out of touch with reality its a shame. Special interest groups have shoved themselves so far up their asses its pathetic. The government lackeys have scared the senators (or blinded them) into believing that the Patriot Act is in our best interest. That, or they're so old and senile that they'll believe anything at this point.
The only hope is that a regime change next time around will undo this shit. Not likely, but you never know.
Religion is for people afraid of going to hell.
... they won't let you leave from the big house with bars.
You might be well advised to find a better government sooner rather than later should you do so at all. As a citizen of another country with an arguably "better government" (Australia) I'd like to point out that (a) we're trying as hard as we can to be as stupid as America, and (b) Please, please, please put your vote to stopping this stupidity at it's source instead. If all the sane, smart Americans leave we're all f**ed.
Besides mouthing off in Slashdot, now is the time you need to contact your senators and express (in a polite and professional way) your displeasure with this bill. Chances are your senators do not read Slashdot, so they don't know what you're thinking if you don't contact them.
So either pick up the phone, or get out pen, paper, and a postage stamp.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Where the FUCK is the judicial branch? Hello? Checks and balances? Wake up, courts! Congress is planning to expand their craptastic Patriot Act so that the executive branch can go gathering information WITHOUT YOUR APPROVAL. Seriously, if I was a judge, I'd be so incredibly pissed off. I'd like to hope that this would never make it by the Supreme Court, but I'm beginning to think that's too much to hope for. Disclaimer: I'm a conservative, but I no longer consider myself a Republican. The actions recently on behalf of both parties is reprehensible. The government stopped working for the people a long time ago. One almost wants to say "revolution," but then that would make you the "T" word wouldn't it?
--------
This isn't the sig you're looking for. Move along.
The more you tighten your grip [...] the more "terrorists" will slip through your fingers...
Now, mod me down freely. My karma can't get any worse...
either that, or it's time to add prozac to the water along with the flouride. what do you do when an entire country goes delusional. boogiemen in turbans in every dark alley, everyone believes (and talks to!) jesus. get a grip. more people die from smoking in a day than ever died from terrorism. perhaps if successive governments didn't keep making fucked up foreign policy decisions this chicken wouldn't be home to roost. sad.
There are a number of polls that show that most people are strongly opposed to the patriot act. How come our Senators are not respecting the public democratic opinion anymore? This new proposal reminds me of the things that happened in Germany 60 years ago: secret searches, bypassing judges, spying on ordinary citizens, detaining "undesired" people, labeling democratic activists as "terrorists", concentration camps, etc.
So that's where all the old STASI people went after the fall of communism.
:)
They're alive and well and running America
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
I just saw a documentary the other day about what and how is public monitoring done in NY. They showed an office where the video and data feeds from every city organization which has planted cameras or any data acquisition system (traffic data, plane flight infos, etc.) come together to one place where they are being collected and watched over continuously. They also issue every day a terrorism warning on a 5 (IIRC) level scale which is the result of combining all the incoming data. On that sinny day the thing was filmed the warning was on the highest level.
I also heard&read stories about how people are sometimes handled at customs in the US, sometimes treated straight like criminals, and don't you dare oppose or ask questions.
Slowly, day by day, you make everything what BinL threatened with become reality. And the gov. even has an easy job since most people give up their precious freedoms all by themselves, and happily.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
It never ceases to amaze me how americans always talk about how free they are even when stuff like this happens.
I live in a country that is ACTUALLY free, but we don't shout about it.
If all four planes had been hijacked and crashed into the capitol building during a presidential address to a joint session of congress.
Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a Q-Tip. - Homer Simpson
Cause you are certainly going to need all the help you can get.
- - - -
The Nazi rise to power brought an end to the Weimar Republic, a parliamentary democracy established in Germany after World War I. Following the appointment of Adolf Hitler as chancellor on January 30, 1933, the Nazi state (also referred to as the Third Reich) quickly became a regime in which Germans enjoyed no guaranteed basic rights. After a suspicious fire in the Reichstag (the German Parliament), on February 28, 1933, the government issued a decree which suspended constitutional civil rights and created a state of emergency in which official decrees could be enacted without parliamentary confirmation.
In the first months of Hitler's chancellorship, the Nazis instituted a policy of "coordination"--the alignment of individuals and institutions with Nazi goals. Culture, the economy, education, and law all came under Nazi control. The Nazi regime also attempted to "coordinate" the German churches and, although not entirely successful, won support from a majority of Catholic and Protestant clergymen.
- - - -
God bless Amercia!
Anyone get the feeling we're becoming more and more of a police state?
A police state? You mean a country with enforced imigration law? Where it is illegal for to conspire to commit acts of violence against American citizens, and support international terror under the guise of religious schooling? Then yes, I think it is, thank heaven.
an ill wind that blows no good
We are all being conned by a magnificent illusion. We refuse to believe that our government is corrupt to a much deeper level than feeling up interns or pork-barrelling. The illusion is multi-faceted in order to take in marks on both "sides". Our government is using a contrived crisis in order to create social/economic/moral change. We laugh at conspiracy theories and choose to live fat and comfortable in denial.
http://www.infowars.com/index.html
And while we're at it, everyone who voted for this administration should have at least one kid in the Army or Marines. And everyone of service age who voted for them should be on the way to their local Army recruiter. Just like Bush and Cheney's kids have done. Get down there and enlist.
Maybe they're too busy drawing up a secret lists of people to investigate.
Imagine if the FBI had these powers during the Red Scare days. People would just disappear. Of course, if not a terrorist you don't have anything to hi--
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Your country is fucked up.
Even more scary than the fact that this is happening, is the fact that Americans are LETTING it happen. Why bother winning the cold war if you're just going to turn into soviet russia anyway?
It's been a long time.
That's something I totally agree with - one should be proud of his own achievements, not those of people he never met that happened to crawl out of a vagina somewhere in the same area.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
This means the governments don't actually have to implement proper security measures themselves, they can just create an "appearance" of doing so, like at airports.
I'm in the UK, not the US, but "heightened state of security" is an excuse used by El Presidente Blair to get all manner of unpopular measures through these days - for example, a fire station was closed in central London this week, thus putting response times to fires (and therefore lives) in some parts of London in jeopardy. However, we were told the reasons for this are that the Fire Brigade is focusing on anti-terrorism measures due to the "heightened state of security".
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
We had that tiff with England in the first place? I feel like I live at Animal Farm.
click me
"For the republic for which it stands..." Welcome to the American Democracy!
Can someone who isn't already a Libertarian tell me what a republic is? I thought not. On the surface they look the same- they both vote. But in a republic you have RIGHTS some of which are inalienable and others which are granted by consitutions. No one may violate your rights without first going through the steps ("Due Process")
It is in a democracy that you have no rights, though there are votes. The majority may vote themseves any privialge they wish. They can vote your wife, mother, or sister to be community property. Such an act is repugnant to a republic.
With the Patriot Act, and the subsequent expansion, we are venturing down a road where "Due Process" is a mere inconviennce or completely disregardable. Forget rights, lets turn this into a demoracy because it is more convienent for the governement. Hogwash. Governing was never meant to be easy. I'll show you "easy governing" it's called a dictatorship. WE CANNOT ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE. Due Process is a requirement of any "republic".
Stop the slippage now. Write your senators and represenatives. Vote Libertarian. Restore the Republic!
"So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause?" - Amadalia, SWIII:RotS
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Is it any coincidence that countries that engage in Police state tactics (and these ARE police state tatics) suffer economically? The stifiling of freedom and creativity simultanously stifles the economy. It happened in the USSR, it happened in China (low wages only goes so far) it happened in North Korea, it happened in Cuba, and now its happening in the US. Is it any coincidence that the US dollar has been falling steadily?
Hey if the yanks are nervous about this, welcome to Canada! Come north, we have health care and due process. You can be free AND safe.
I'm just riding the wave... someday far in the future, the free and sovereign country of Iraq will come over and help free us from our dictatorship.
FLR
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison.
If that doesn't show just how forward-looking the founding fathers were, I don't know what does.
P.S. To see some of the stories you've been missing, check out my journal.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
It's actions, not words that determine if you're a traitor. Speaking out (even if you're speaking out because you're convinced GW is an alien) is an absolute right reserved in the US Constitution. (ok ok Alien and Sedition Act, Patriot Act, etc etc but the bottom line is the what the framers intended - protected dissent)
The ability to dissent is absolutely key to the workings of a free democratic society. Even if you're an idiot with harebrained ideas. In fact, it becomes more important than ever to protect those ideas, simply because they will go against the norms!
After all, no true idea can be judged on merit in a vacuum. Dialog is important to ferret out the weak ideas and improve upon the truly valid.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
If this was being done to a US citizen by the US governemnt, than I would agree with you. Facism is one the government abuses it's own population. Torture happens in war. War is filled with terrible aweful things that should never happen. But are not a sign of a fascist state.
click me
How many of you have the balls to actually read these two columns from that ultra-right-wing, reactionary Washington Post:
Amnesty's Amnesia
Hyperbole and Human Rights
You can't call Applebaum and Dionne apologists for W, either.
Unfortunately, registration is required, so here's some tidbits:
"Why do President Bush's critics make life so easy for him?"
Why does gulag matter? The word refers to the vast machinery of political subjugation created by Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union and comes from the acronym for Glavnoe Upravlenie Lagerei , or Main Camp Administration. As my Post colleague Anne Applebaum noted in her Pulitzer Prize-winning book, "Gulag," it eventually came to refer to "the system of Soviet slave labor itself, in all its forms and varieties."
These included "labor camps, punishment camps, criminal and political camps, women's camps, children's camps, transit camps," Applebaum wrote. Gulag also came to stand for "the Soviet repressive system itself," including "the arrests, the interrogations, the transport in unheated cattle cars, the forced labor, the destruction of families, the years spent in exile, the early and unnecessary deaths."
"A few years ago I spent several days sitting in the back of a library in London, reading through newsletters, pamphlets and other accounts of Soviet prison conditions published in the 1970s and '80s by Amnesty International. Sometimes these reports were remarkably detailed, testifying to the extraordinary ability of prisoners to smuggle out their stories. One included the memorable observation that on Sept. 13, 1979, the prisoner Zhukauskas "found a white worm" in his soup. A more harrowing 1987 news release told the story of the hunger strike and prison death of dissident writer Anatoly Marchenko. His widow, denied a death certificate or a proper funeral, wrote his name in ballpoint pen on his makeshift grave."
"Amnesty, in other words, was an organization that once knew the meaning of the word "gulag." Amnesty also once knew the importance of political neutrality. On its Web site, the organization still describes itself as "independent of any government, political ideology, economic interest or religion." In the Cold War era, this neutrality was important, since it prevented the organization's publications, whether on prison food or prison deaths, from being seen as propaganda for one side or another.
I don't know when Amnesty ceased to be politically neutral or at what point its leaders' views morphed into ordinary anti-Americanism. But surely Amnesty's recent misuse of the word "gulag" marks some kind of turning point. In the past few days, not only has Amnesty's secretary general, Irene Khan, called the U.S. prison for enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, "the gulag of our times," but Amnesty's U.S. director, William Schulz, has agreed that U.S. prisons for enemy combatants are "similar at least in character, if not in size, to what happened in the gulag." In an interview, Schulz also said that foreign governments should prosecute U.S. officials, as if they were the equivalent of the Soviet Union's criminal leadership."
"Amnesty, by misusing language, by discarding its former neutrality, and by handing the administration an easy way to brush off "ridiculous" accusations, also deprives itself of what should be its best ally. The United States, as the world's largest and most powerful democracy, remains, for all its flaws, the world's best hope for the promotion of human rights. If Amnesty still believes in its stated mission, its leaders should push American democratic institutions to influence U.S. policy for the good of the world, and not attack the American government for the satisfaction of their own political faction."
Keep voting Democrat and a police state is what you'll get, too.
You're fooling yourself if you think they're much different. Both major parties want to increase government power. That power can then be abused by anyone who happens to grab it. The only solution is to strip government of its excessive power, and strictly limit it to legitimate functions that we the people authorize it to do. Much like the Constitution actually intended. *gasp* What a concept!
If you enjoy freedom and you're not voting Libertarian or Constitution, you're wasting your vote. It's quite obvious we don't get more freedom by voting for the incumbent Duopoly.
Constitutionally Correct
Poor Americans, for now, Europe is trailling
It is my belief that the argument for representation of the people in government is misleading and is really just Chomskys 'Necessary
Illusion' in action. J.S.Mills 'wedge of coercion' is illustrated through the modern use of marketing tools that promote the idea that if everyone votes we have a democracy and as such everyone should vote. The problem is that the voting is skewed by market manipulations (the popularity contest) and the votes of the politically educated recieve only as much attention as the equally valued vote of the victim of the illusion (a.k.a. the delusional voter).
If you follow this then perhaps you can see my argument for the non existence of Democracy. We are actually living in a 'Technocracy' - a society where those who have the greatest technology can assert control. It can only get worse with the genetic segmentation of the market that is coming.
So here is where I get to my solution: when voting one should be asked motivational questions. Ones that offer insight into why the voter is voting. If their motivation is value laden then let their vote count, otherwise further the questioning so by the end of questioning the system itself can identify what the voter would vote for if they had the knowledge base from which one could truly make informed decisions. In the process the user would become informed - but the information they recieve would have to be organised so as not to induce a bias.
thinking:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
I am NaN
And here I was thinking that John Titor was a liar.
...or do things suck just a little bit more every day?
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
"I think it's time for a new chancellor. A strong chancellor!"
As a german I must say we had this before, a democrcy being turned into a dictatorship and I think that's where Lucas borrowed from in the prequels. I can see some of these tendencies in the US too. And I must say I am worried...
Yeah, I'm another of those evangelical Christians who would like nothing better than to see Bush out of office. Although I worry that won't take care of the problem, seeing as how Congress is perfectly happy to pass bills like this. What really needs to happen is for people to actually take an interest in politics, instead of a handful of people choosing to 'run our country' as a career.
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
So...band with me to help eliminate (for starters):
The Patriot Act
McCain-Feingold
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Medical licensing
Drivers licensing
Wait...what do you mean it's not the same thing?
In addition, we were founded to be a union of states. The individual states would never have approved the formation of the union if they had lost all their individual rights. Last year, Colorado had a vote on whether to split their electoral votes according to the popular vote in the state. It was voted down. Why? Because it basically would have made their votes meaningless - instead of 9 votes for one candidate, it would have become only one vote for a candidate. (Well, 5 for one and 4 for the other - so one total.) It would have significantly reduced their state's power in the election.
I'm not saying I'm happy with the way the last election turned out, but I'm not going to say down with the electoral college.
Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
The mark of a free society is that you can get lawyers, go to court and fight things like this.
Meanwhile, in America, if the Judge rules in a fashion not approved by the Right Wing so-called "Conservatives" they start screaming about "Activist Judges" who are "legislating from the bench".
The seperation of powers with three co-equal branches of government setup to act as checks and balances against each other was set up for a very good reason, and is one more essential part of UD freedom that is under attack from the far right.
The US right wing is a far bigger threat to freedom than terrorism IMO.
I don't believe I said that people should vote for the Democrats? Indeed a two party system is destined to converge into an identical-twin-party system, because they try to hit the majority public opinion. Having multiple parties, where no single party can get complete control, ensures that compromises will have to made across parties, and opinions.
A third party is a good idea only in theory. The existing parties are far too big to lose control to a third party. Here's an idea; split the two parties into two, so that 4 parties emerge, none of which may use the Republican or Democrat names. Then give them each a big bag of money for campaigning and make it illegal to accept further campaign funding.
Alas, americans have been brainwashed with the idea that opposing the government is somehow wrong. Nothing could be more incorrect.
"Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand"
-Bodie Thoene
Arggghhhn NOOOOO!!! That is just so wrong. The idea that Bin Laden wants less freedom for us is Bush propaganda. Bin Laden has repeatively stated that his goal is to remove the US troops that are holding up the brutal dictatorship in his home country, Saudi Arabia. Try and find a quote from him saying what Bush says he says. Ever wonder how every time there is a new video out, you never hear what he is saying?
Bush knows that if he says "they hate freedom", it will get the whole of the USA and the free world on his side. It's a shitload better than saying "they hate the fact that we fuck with their politics for our own personal gain".
The OP is misleading. Neither the FBI nor any other part of government has these powers. Yet. This is a committee proposal; it's not been voted on in either house of congress and it certainly hasn't been signed into law yet.
Certainly this is something to fear, but it's not here yet.
Whaat???! If you move abroad, without giving up your citizenchip, to live in an other country, you have to pay both local taxes and US taxes at the same time?? This sounds totally insane! Can that really be true? And right-wing people here use to say the US is the country of economic freedom!
In Sweden, our taxation laws are made especially so that you should never be taxed twice for the same income. You might have to pay swedish taxes when living abroad, but only if you don't pay local taxes on the same income and do have some sort of strong connection to sweden (like living here half of the year or something).
Btw, how does the US taxation office get to know about your income when living in another country anyway? It's not like your local employer will be forced by local law to send in your income details to them...
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
It might as well have been in Swedish. It would have had the same amount of meaning for me. I think it's hard to be brainwashed when you don't even know what you're saying.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
...my parents were always poor, but managed to stay _just_ above the poverty line so did not always qualify for such programs. The poverty line in the United States is set entirely too low, and hasn't really been increased in a number of years. Sociologists have been remarking on this - it's one reason why there are a lot of people struggling to survive, and one reason why it's better sometimes to go on welfare than to work - you'll actually eat better. When you're holding a minimum wage job (or two) and trying to support three kids as my parents did, it turns into a near-impossibility, especially if you make that few hundred dollars more than the poverty cutoff.
If you're able to get a job paying significantly more than minimum wage, you're probably fine, but neither one of my parents had more than a high school education, and my mom never finished 7th grade. McDonalds doesn't really pay that well if you're not a manager, and even then I've heard horror stories.
picpix image polls. create - share - vote. fun!
I was eating breakfast. Mea culpa, my reading comprehension wasn't at its daily peak :O
That said, I have little confidence that even six years ago the secret police would have sent her on her way with "Have a nice day Ms. Foreign Journalist, Allah willing". Horrible people did horrible things to her - they didn't just hire those guys fresh out of Sicko College three years ago.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Maybe he'll do like Gov. George Wallace did in Alabama back in the day. He was prohibited from serving more than two consecutive terms, so his wife ran and won as governer. He of course won again the next election.
The Founding Fathers distrusted majorities. They really distrusted majority rule. That's why the Senate and House are set up differently and must both agree, it's why the Senate was for a long time appointed by the state legislatures (this was only changed because the state legislatures were corrupt, not because anyone wanted to vote for their Senators), and it's why we have the Electoral College.
People who don't understand it often criticize it. And even those who think they understand it look at the 2000 election and say "See! The Electoral College doesn't work!" But anyone who truly understands the Electoral College also understands that the 2000 election was proof that it does work.
I'm proud to live in a constitutional, republican federation of states. And I'm proud that we have that Constitution, because without it there would be no restraints on Congress.
Now, did anyone actually read the story? I don't have time this morning, but the blurb says that the Senate Intelligence Committee voted on something and then it went on to say that the new FBI powers are already there. What's the actual status, or do tinfoil hats interfere with rational thought?
The problem is not Republicans, or Democrats, or Greens, or Libertarians, or any other group that decided they'd get some recognition if they labeled themselves with a sophisticated-sounding word.
The problem is that people are stupid. That's all. Personally, yes, I would love to have the freedom to say and think and do whatever I like, but I'm totally unconvinced that people in the US or anywhere else are intellectually equipped to handle anything remotely like freedom.
If you're one of the people who actually thinks logically and rationally about things: sorry, but you're in a very small minority, which would explain why elections don't turn out the way you'd like.
Terrorists are pissed off about America's policies in THEIR countries. Its only American arrogance that makes people think that they give a shit what happens within americas borders.
Who voted for it? I want to know where I should send money to make sure they don't get re-elected.
There's more than enough tyranny for both Russia and America to sink into dictatorships! Why be greedy?
I wish that my inferiority complex were as good as yours.
-RenderHead
Anyhow, that leaves about 90M Americans who are not overweight and 36M who are starving in the streets. Are we to believe that only 54M (20% of) Americans eat a healthy amount of food? Neither too much nor too little?
That sounds a little implausable to me. But that shouldn't interrupt a good round of US-bashing.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
If I write to my rep., I wonder what they will do with the personal information I provide? For all I know, they could start keeping track of me, as a political dissident. Then what? And will my rep. consider anonymous letters?
but only Congress can take it away.
But it is now.
That quote is simply too perfect.
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison
The US Patriot Act won't be used against terrorists, just opponents of the US government. Expecting anything less would be ignoring the recent history of US systematic human rights violations.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Well, it has to be challenged and make it into the courts before the courts could do anything about it.
This is an extremely important point. It is not unusual for the Congress to pass unconstitutional laws. But the courts can't do anything about them until until they hear a case concerned with them. Some of this has already ocurred.
So this is why Supreme Court nominations are even more important than these individual Acts in the long run.
Is that why we're installing judges such as Janice Brown?
"She has often said that she has been guided through the challenges of her life and work by her deep Christian faith, and she has often argued that judges should look to higher authorities than precedent or manmade laws in making decisions" (NYT 6/9)
The whole "judicial activism" rhetorics is bollock. It is only invoked when a judge rules against one's interest, never otherwise.
Which I don't think was your claim.
The President has no role in amending the Constitution. Neither do the courts. Congress may play a role if it chooses by proposing amendments. Only the states may change the Constitution.
@HbFyo0$k8 tH!$
It's the most patriotic thing you can do. Democracy is founded on reasoned debate. If those in power can't address the concerns of those who aren't, they shouldn't be in power. I see those in power throwing out solutions (such as the Patriot Act) without showing they put any thought into it. And they are the ones freaking out when questioned on the details. Blind questioning, whining, and endless nitpicking are loaded words, meant to imply without any kind of proof that your opponents arguments lack merit. Spitefully attacking honest protest is traitorous, and stupid.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Their children and grand children haven't learned these lessons of history as well as some of our contemporaries in Germany, Russia and other parts of Europe. As the leading example, no pun intended, we have today a child of a Veteran of World War II in the White House, leading the charge to trade a reduction in civil rights in this country for promised increases in security. On the bright side, there is a debate going on here, a public debate. Consider Bruce Schneier's recent book Beyond Fear, which seeks to help us learn how to consider the trade-offs that security decisions require at all levels, personal and societal.
The terrorists who struck The World Trade Center want a world run by an archaic, theocratic totalitarianism with eye-for-an-eye style justice meted out by them and their hand-picked like-minded sociopaths. When we give up civil rights to fight terrorism, the terrorists gain ground. However, we have many checks and balances here and we are a very long way from sliding into totalitarianism of any sort here in the U.S. Unfortunately there are many people who don't see the slippery slope when they step out upon it.
Back on the bright side, today we have more interaction between the people of different countries than ever before. The internet provides opportunity for dialog between the citizens of different countries which is historically unprecedented. German students come to the U.S. and talk to their friends about history, Russian emigrants in the U.S. talk to their friends about what's happening now in Russia, and how strange it is to see things like secret subpoenas and detention without charges and trials in the U.S. I've heard examples of both groups express surprise in conversations with young Americans ignorant of history, "Don't you realize this is how Fascism starts?" With fear. Yoda got that right, for sure. As a citizen of the United States I would like to thank you for remembering and reminding us. There are many of us here who appreciate your patience. We are a young country, but an old Democracy. With your help, we will make it through this without sliding into an Orwellian 1984, nor a Fascistic 1934.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
There's a problem with step 5: you presume that the Emperor won't disolve the Senate. You could end up left a hapless trooper working on the Death Star, desperately trying to find a bathroom after the rebels have stolen the deck plans.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
"So that's how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."
If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up. - Comedian Mitch Hedberg R.I.P. 03/30/68-2/24/05
from Eddie Izzard:
"Two languages in one head? No one can live at that speed!"
"But the Dutch speak three languages and smoke marijuana..."
"Yes, but they're cheating"
"the ability to designate subpoenas as secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison" So would this mean if you are secretly served a subpoena and don't show up. If the courts acknowledge you didn't show up.. would they need to serve one year in prison? Or would showing up disclose the fact that you were served a subpoena? Or maybe just us talking about the existance of these secret subpoenas is enough to merit one year in prison.
Folks, there's still hope. The Senate Intelligence Committee merely proposed their recommendations. These recommendations still have to be approved by Congress and the Senate.
Email your respective representatives NOW!!!
Who are my Senators?
Who is my Congressman?
"United States' noble origins -- Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, all progressive atheists "
Most people in this country have never heard of Thomas Paine. I'd say maybe 10-20% maximum.
In addition I think they only know that Jefferson and Washington were presidents,
and that Franklin flew kites....
Our educational system glosses a lot of shit over, and drops some very pertinent information.
BTW I believe all of these guys were deists, not atheists.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, the westside of Chicago...
Serenity now, insanity later.
Imagine that. The same party that freed the slaves and led the Civil Rights Movement will have a Female Black presidential Candidate.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
That's basically what J. Edgar Hoover did for years. You're about 70 years too late...
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
there's nothing for you to see here
...and even the founding fathers had trouble with it. Alexander Hamilton asserted that a republic was a state with no special privilege due to birth or family. James Madison felt uncomfortable with this definition (as would any rational southerner) as he owned slaves. The classical republic of antiquity, the republic of Rome, even appointed dictators from time to time.
This word "republic" is fluid, and it mostly means (IMHO) "land without a king." Most people who use it (including members of the US Republican party) invoke the word without any idea of the ambiguity that it implies.
Stir up the hornet's nest even more by invading a country with imaginary weapons, at a significant cost of human life(our own citizens mind you), all while creating a new hotbed of terrorism, and a new excuse that terrorists can use to justify their actions.
It doesn't seem like a reasonably stance to think that you can fan the flames of hatred with impunity. Eventually, it will catch up.
I was watching a Sunday news show where someone claimed that the US has, by default, become the "world police." Think about that- there are some very serious implications here.
I would like to petition the government for an amendment to the U.S. Constitution which will read as follows:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
If we only had some language like that in the Constitution we'd be protected from these expanding government powers. But I doubt that enough elected officials or the people would ever support such a radical notion.
For every one guy who gives a shit, you've got about a thousand overweight blobs of genetic waste who only care to the extent that the news is interrupting Survivor reruns. As long as they've got football and NASCAR and beer, fuck you.
This would be how the Party In Power has obtained power and is now working overtime to secure it permanently - they give a shit, and their "values" key to their consituencies fear and hatred of all things "un american" (read : non-white, non-Christian, etc.) - so re-election isn't something the bastards have to worry about.
A majority of the ruling class always manages to fool an ignorant majority of the public and this is what we end up with.
Can't mankind come up with something new?
Or at least a better implementation?
Pay no attention to what the critics say. Remember, a statue has never been set up in honor of a critic! - Jean Sibelius
They have given up on their duty period.
I wish we had some truly constructionalist judges who would challenge congress, but as the whole medical marijuana issue shows states rights are out the window. The constitution has been subverted, and the judges have let it slide since FDR.
I do my duty, I vote Libertarian, and encourage others to do the same. Liberty is going down the toilet though. I guess Americans today really prefer that SUV, Monday night football and gubment cheese to freedom.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Mundus Vult Decipi
They are not ultra-conservative. They are Pro-state. An ultra conservative judge would read the constitution, understand it, and then declare much of what the federal government does unconstitutional.
BTW, do not call them neo-cons. Call them Nazi-cons. It better describes their worldview.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
(Thomas Jefferson)
It's a sad day when I feel so nervous quoting a founding father. Oh, crap. I hope they can't subpeona people with this, in addition to documents. My wife probably wouldn't risk a year in prison to let anyone know...
Holy crap people RTFA! The last time I checked the Senate Intelligence committee doesn't pass bills. Congress does. This is only a committee and doesn't mean that anything has been put into law. There's plenty of time to contact Reps and Senators and tell them that this is a bad idea.
-Nick
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
Ha, hardly the land of the free, more like the land of fascist
Do not tread on me!
FalconShould there be a Law?
So this is how Liberty dies--to thunderous applause.
I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
I've got a family to provide for. I can't tell you how many times I've had to step back and reconsider speaking out on issues of concern. The last thing I want is to be labeled a terrorist sympathizer because I don't approve of things that my government is doing. Hell, I'm even worring now about posting this as non-anonymous... but damn it, this is insane! I should never have to worry about this kind of crap in my own country. Wow, this is all so screwed up, and everyone around me can only see abortion and gays as the sole issues of discourse when it comes to an election. Argggg...
I just finished reading Baghdad Year Zero. Thanks for passing it along. It was tremendously informative and insightful. A must-read for anyone who thinks like a journalist and just follows the money.
There is obviously no connection between protecting us, and installing this police state. Bush's lies and propaganda are a smokescreen for killing our country and enslaving us. The only way to stop this insanity is to impeach Bush. Just like Nixon - nearly impeaching him for robbing his election opponent's headquarters stopped all the rest of his crimes, including Vietnam.
--
make install -not war
I understand the need for Homeland Security to become a powerful agency, but do we really need a KGB in this country? I hate to cry "slippery slope," but isn't that what this is? With these subpoenas being extra secretive, and punishable by a year in prison if disclosed(!), doesn't that just fly in the face of anything resembling personal privacy?
I'm all for catching the bad guys, but let's not give Homeland Security too much power. We should let them drive, but let's not give them the keys and the pinkslip too.
Health Insurance Quotes
Real conservatives have let fake Conservatives steal their name. In exchange for getting carried along with the power grab. Except few actual conservatives have any power in the deal, and the fake conservatives use their unprecedented power to destroy much of what true conservatives value. In the bargain, though, lots of true conservatives have become fake conservatives. Because they value the power more than they value what they used to say they would conserve, until they had to actually do it.
--
make install -not war
And you got it. 9/11 brought out the real vengeance aspect of the American public. Whats funny in a very sith sort of way is that the only ones (besides Iraqi civilians) who are getting the short end of the revenge are the American public. Bush and his buddies knew within nano-seconds that 9/11 was their big break, their great once in a lifetime opportunity to push through this kind of crap legislation. Why? Because if you voted against it you weren't (ahem) "patriotic"... When was the last time the term "Homeland" was used with such broad applications by a government?
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
For me, this is what started it all: http://www.justacitizen.com/articles_documents/May 14-05-Gagged%20but%20not%20Dead.htm It's unreal.
but you forgot to add "comrade" at the end:
You don't support terrorists, do you, comrade?
AccountKiller
If we're going to complain about this, can we at least call it by its correct name? It is not the patriot act, nor the Patriot Act, nor the PATRIOT act.
It is the USA PATRIOT Act of 2001: The Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act.
And for those who complain that the Republicans need to be voted about because of their abuse of power, don't forget that the Act was approved 98-1 (with one abstaining) in the Senate .
It's "no one," not "noone." Who the hell is noone anyway?
I'm sure a few citizens of Rome would sympathize, after witnessing the Republic transform into the Empire in Caesar's hands. Then, like now, the majority of the populous was too busy enjoying their bread and circuses to notice that their democratic representation disappeared.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
simple.She sat in the "wet spot" on the front seat where the previous couple had sex.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
When we, the West, stop exploiting Dar Al-Islam, that is, the entirety of the Muslim World. I say this because that is exactly what the Muslims did during the Crusades; they fought and fought and fought until the Christian states established in Palestine were destroyed. They fought, and still fight, defensively.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Sometimes you think these guys have spent a LOT of time studying the Nazi takeover in Germany and 1984.
Who wants to bet that Co-Intel Pro (or the modern equivalent) is already up and running again.
Me must give up our freedoms to keep our freedoms. Hah, I'll take rampant terrorism over THEIR brand of freedom.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
... and whoop Bush's ass in the election!
Different groups would be created to fullfill every human needs.
It's one thing if those in those groups do it willingly but it's something else if they are forced to, that being slavery. Profits aren't the problem the problem is that too many are willing to do most anything to make that profit. And many of those are part of the Corporate Aristocracy that Thomas Jefferson warned about.
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
FalconThomas Jefferson, 1814
Should there be a Law?
Here's the part which gives them powers without requiring a judicial subpoena.
..subpoena may be made upon a domestic or foreign corporation that is subject to suit under a common name..."
"..is further amended by adding at the end the following new title:
Title VIII - Administrative subpoenas in national security investigations
Authorization to issue
Sec. 802 (a) In general the Directory of the [FBI] or a designee of the Director in a position not lower than Deputy Assistant Director at [FBI] headquarters or a Special Agent in Charge (including an 'acting' Special Agent in Charge) in a [FBI] field office designated by the Directory, may issue in writing and cause to be served a subpoena requiring -
(1) production of any records or materials relevant to [investigation of] foreign intelligence information not concering a US person."
So what is this saying? If I'm a US Citizen that this doesn't apply to me? Furthermore...
"Sec. 805 (b) (1) Natural person - service of a subpoena upon a natural person may be made by personal delivery of the subpoena to that person...
(2) Business entities and associations
What is a natural person?
Well, on the other hand...
- The UK has a network of surveillance cameras that America's authoritarians can only dream about.
- The UK just had an election in which electoral fraud is strongly suspected, because the postal vote system was left open to abuse.
- In 2001 the Home Secretary described civil liberties as an "airy fairy" concern.
- The RIP Act makes routine surveillance of ordinary citizens a reality. It goes even further than the PATRIOT act, in that it requires ISPs to develop and install monitoring software at their expense, and makes it a criminal offense to refuse to incriminate yourself by handing over your encryption keys on demand. Oh, and it also makes it an offense to tell anyone you're being investigated or that you have been forced to hand over your keys, so much for freedom of speech.
- The UK also amended the law in the 90s so that refusing to incriminate yourself could be used as evidence against you in court--i.e. there is no "right to silence".
- The current government is set on introducing a mandatory identity card with biometric features.
- The UK Official Secrets act allows people to be put on trial for crimes against the state, without being told what they actually did. (i.e. the evidence against them can be ruled secret under the act).
- Even though the ruling party deliberately lied to the country to support a war on Iraq, they were still voted back in with a huge majority--just like the situation in the US.
- The Criminal Justice Act of 2003 suspended the right to trial by jury, and suspended the "double jeopardy" limits, allowing the state to continue to harass people indefinitely.
- The new Home Secretary is now trying to undermine the right to a fair trial.
- The UK government handed over power over intellectual property legislation to the WTO, just like America did. Tough luck if you don't like software patents; the government doesn't have the power to decide not to allow them, because of the GATT TRIPS treaties signed in the 90s. (Signed even though many of us wrote letters to politicians, protested, etc.)
One of the reasons I left the UK is because the country is so damn complacent. For some reason, UK citizens don't care about the UK's lurch towards fascism; they're too busy looking at America and feeling smug. At least Americans seem to be aware of, and care about, their country becoming a fascist state, even if they are powerless to stop it.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Today, people have been "disappeared" and locked up in the gulag in Gitmo, for no other reason than that they were untruthfully accused of sympathizing with terrorists. This is not theory, it's documented fact.
Sorry, this is better than McCarthyism how, exactly? Oh, right, McCarthyism was directed against white people like you, whereas this is only directed against Muslims...
And what about the tortured to death victims of the American military? Again, documented fact. Oh, right, most of them aren't American, so they don't count, right?
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
No, it's viral marketing ;p
of a sinister shadow lurking, waiting to enslave us all is childish and should be left
at the movies.
The reason you find it hard to believe is that you are probably a human who wouldn't knowingly harm others for personal gain. However. . , it is entirely probable that the same kind of psychopathic behavior which led to the collapse of Enron and the trillion-dollar piracy which devastated more than 20 other huge corporations in the same six month period is also comfortably installed in the halls of government.
There are monsters out there, they lie amazingly well, have enormous charisma, and they are naturally drawn to and vie for positions of power from which to inflict their misery and chaos upon the world. Psychopathy is not a myth. It is a medically proven reality, and it is active in the world right now.
This does not mean that ALL of the government is bad. But it does mean that the highest seats of power are almost certainly occupied by a number of individuals with no compassion or ethics and who are hell-bent on torturing the world. Judge the tree by the fruit it bears!
Bush's weird speach and dialogue problems are typical of the psychopathic mind. Psychopaths who have been caught and studied illustrate this. Look it up. There's a lot of information for those who are willing to learn.
Either directly or indirectly a portion of the American government orchestrated the attack on 9-11 specifically to create the current situation.
Everybody has heard this before, and anybody who bothers to investigate the matter properly, (that is, beyond reading poorly researched and outright false articles in Popular Science, will come to the same conclusion. --If they have the courage to overcome the mountains of state-installed mind-programming and look the beast in the face without flinching.
-FL
If supporting due process and accountability is a "leftist" position then I'm a pinko-eco-terrorist and your a baby-eating facist from the ministry of information.
Now I've got to make that my signature !
the President Gasman! Bombs-away is your punishment..."
"I once preached peaceful coexistence with Windows. You may laugh at my expense - I deserve it." Be's Jean-Louis Gass
The US is obviously turning into the SU ;)
Me (Blog)
The FBI has gained nothing until Congress passes this thing. After all the years of color coded nuttiness, expanding deficits, unanswerable administration, airline frisking, illegal detentions, balck bag searches. librarian browbeating and lies and obfuscations over what happened on 911 it is beyond belief that this more of the same will pass Congress. Of couse it is only a new act of terrorism away.
The idea that Bin Laden wants less freedom for us is Bush propaganda.
If it is propaganda, then why is Bush complying? Why is Bush taking away freedom if Osama wants him to?
And of course Osama wants the US troops to leave 'holy Saudi soil'. He is also no dumb idiot; he's immoral, but no idiot. He knows that *he* cannot get US troops to leave Saudi Arabia or other muslim countries *by himself*. He knows that the US *public* can put pressure on its government. He also knows that the US public is generally uninterested in what happens abroad. So he wants to get them interested. How? Simple: by letting the US public feel how a great number of muslims are feeling at this moment. He *wants* US constitutional rights to be withdrawn, because *that* will get the US public up in arms.
Place yourself in his shoes/sandals/whatever. He knows how several US governments have 'influenced' (to put it mildly) the internal political situation of a lot of countries. The succeeding governments continue doing it, because their voters do not give a damn (generally speaking) and the political 2-party, winner takes all system is corrupt. So how do you get US forces out of your beloved country? Bombing those troops? You haven't got the resources to kill enough troops to make 'em leave. Asking politely? Yeah, right. No, if you are desperate enough you'll go after the voters of those US governments, because they can be influenced with the least amount of effort. Stir them, shake them, make their own government take away their rights. Make 'em revolt! Make them change their government and the foreign policies.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
Most Americans will never even know about this expansion of power and most of those that do hear of it will simply not care.
Funny, maybe; but what... entity... modded this insightful?
Assuming he doesn't outright completely suspend elections or the constitution (which even a Republican Congress and a packed Supreme Court would go apeshit over), he'd need to have the 22nd Amendment repealed. This would require another amendment, much like the 21st repealed prohibition. This would require ratification of three quarters of the states-- 38, assuming no new states are admitted, and no current states split.
In the2004 presidential election, Bush carried only 32 states. Given that he has not massively increased his popularity since (especially given current sentiments on term limits), I'd consider the 61st Amendment far more likely.
There's also the question of whether such an amendment could realistically happen in time for Bush to run in 2008. A state-called convention seems unlikely. While some amendments have passed really quickly, others took longer. Given that it would be relatively controversial, it seems not unreasonable to believe it would take a year after getting out of congress. Furthermore, given the shennanigans that the Republican Senate lacked the votes to obtain cloture against a filibuster, it seems unlikely they would have be able to pass such an amendment.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Honorable Senator Cantwell: I know that you are a very busy person, so I will attempt to keep my comments brief. I was very disturbed to read that a Senate Panel recently voted to expand the powers granted the police and intelligence communities under the Patriot act.
The patriot act contains several egregious clauses, but as a temporary law it was bearable. I, like most citizens, had assumed that some time after 9/11 the paranoia would die down, and the more flagrant violions of our privacy would be removed. However it appears that those who would use fear to extort hard-won freedoms continue to distort the truth and make a mockery of our constitution. Judicial oversight is being swept under the rug, and America is rapidly becoming a police state.
So, as citizens, we face a proliferation of laws unparalled in history. Not even the lawyers are sure what is and is not legal any more. We have a number of police and intelligence organizations operating with ever-escalating powers, including unprecedented levels of secrecy backed by gag orders carrying severe penalties. And the last bastion of sanity in this mad power-grab, the judiciary, is being cut out of the loop completely. This, Senator, is a recipe for disaster.
I would like to remind you of the Fourth Amendment, which states: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
This is being read in an increasingly narrow context. The use of remote sensing technologies (e.g. thermal imaging, directional or laser microphones etc.) to monitor people within their homes without judical oversight had been approved even before the patriot act effectively removed this requirement.
Madam Senator, you, and every other member of congress swore an oath to uphold the constituion. Those of us who value freedom are alarmed and dismayed at the rapid erosion of the freedoms our constitution guarantees. You have always seemed a reasonable and level-headed leader, so I am asking you to add your voice to those who oppose ANY further expansion of police or intelligence powers.
Thank you once again for your time.
Sincerely,
Michael Briggs.
One of two things are true.
Either you honestly have no idea that what you are saying is 100% false yet continue to repeat the lies you have been fed due to cowardice or whatever else it is that keeps you from doing your duty as a citizen to be informed, or you do know that you're spreading extremely ignorant lies for the purpose of promoting an anti-freedom agenda.
Either one of these cases speaks very poorly of you.
I and many other people here are citizens, not subjects or consumers like yourself. We are trying to discuss important issues in a factual manner.
The blatant shit that you are spewing serves no possible positive purpose.
Either actually learn something (anything at all for crying out loud) about the subject and discuss it in a manner that demonstrates some level of understanding above that of a barn yard animal, or just act like you have the tiniest scrap of integrity and quit spreading blatant lies.
Now, you seem completely unable to actually figure out how to learn things as demonstrated convincingly by those lies that you spewed above so here is a link to the actual facts.
You and people like you are the worst enemies of freedom, truth, and honest open discussion.
Quit spreading lies you slimy piece of shit.
Specifically: If the laws have changed, changing them back is not conservative, it is reactionary.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Come on ALCU. Its been years now, and the Patriot Act isn't just still here, it apparently is going to get even worse! What is holding back having this law ruled unconstitutional?
that the Google ad above this article is:
Become A FBI Agent
Program gets you what you need in 13 months.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
if, as we've all had hammered into our head, a terrorist's main goal is to destroy american freedoms and the american way of life, doesn't that make our own government the biggest and worst terrorist threat to america?
There is this new thing called civil-disobedience, some Indian guy invented it I think. People could concievably try that one out too...
The problem is, none of us has any idea how to stop the runaway train that is the US govt. If you become to vocal, or threaten revolution, you are considered a terrorist, and face very real dangers of prosecution. So, the best we can do is write to our representatives, and hope that maybe a few of them still have some sense of honor or integrity.
... Paul Wellstone's crash ... to name just a couple of recent demonstrations ... I think our representatives get the message, and value their lives.
Anthrax in the mail
-kgj
-kgj
Expanding the patriot act will make the law enforcement agencies better able to do their job (i.e. more efficient). That's not necessarily a good thing. There is another name for efficient government. Fascist dictatorships. The US Government is the most powerful in the world. The worst thing that could happen would be for it to also be the most efficient in the world. The Italians commented under Mussolini that he had the trains running on time. Efficient.
The founding fathers designed this government to be inefficient & slow, with checks and balances to impede legislation. Freedom means accepting risk.
We should not be so afraid of risk that we are willing to give up freedom and privacy. We put up with greater risks every day and don't take such extreme precautions. We drive down the street in 2 ton automobiles within feet of drivers we don't know. We go to work in buildings with hundreds of people we don't know. Risk is all around us. As a matter of fact, the entire US system of government is based on increased risk in favor of freedom. A simple example is the basic idea that a person innocent until proven guilty. That assumption assures that more guilty people will go free than innocent people will go to jail. We, as a society agree we are willing to walk among dangerous criminals so that we do not endanger the freedom of individuals.
Laws build up, they don't expire. Even those with built in expiration dates like the Patriot act don't go away when they expire, they get bigger. National ID cards restrict travel, expanding the Patriot Act reduces freedom of expression, national "public" schooling makes us think both are OK.
Abandon the two party system (there are really only minor differences between them anyway) and vote for an oddball.
Suggestion Slashdot editors - How about reporting "the Senate Intelligence Committee is GOING to vote on the Patriot Act next month" instead of "It seems that the patriot act is being expanded rather than scaled back AFTER a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee." Your way reports the news & let's us all complain about how we all just lost some freedom. My way lets us mobilize and tell our representatives what we think.
If it is propaganda, then why is Bush complying? Why is Bush taking away freedom if Osama wants him to?
All of these bills have been fought for going back many years, but they always failed. 9-11 gave the proponents of them the political currency to get through in legislation. That's the only reason they all came through now. The CIA/FBI etc have wanted these powers for decades.
Get this though, he has actually succeeded in removing the troops (almost). With the US entrenched in Iraq, that will be the new home for most of the troops currently stationed in Saudi. The US keeps troops there for "stability" (i.e. staying involved) in the Middle East. Should they all move to Iraq (which I believe has been mentioned), then Osama's goals are somewhat complete (obviously there are other things these people want as well).
I've actually wondered if that was party the reason for pushing the Iraq land-snatch so hard!
That's not their first duty, however:
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Something most people are missing (some, like Declan, intentionally), is that you do not lose your right to have judicial oversight of the subpoena. You have the right to get judicial review of the subpoena before complying with it. Maybe that's not a good thing, but all those who imply that our Fourth Amendment rights are being violated are simply incorrect. Maybe the spirirt is being violated; that's a judgment call, but it certainly is not as bad as many make it out to be.
Funny how when you learn more about something, it's often not as bad as it first seems.
_4000_ applicants?
Concord is only a town of 40,000 people... even figuring those from around the entire state, you really think that given a 3% unemployment rate, that's a bit of a stretch?
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
I've got lots more problems with his voting record, notably on the Drug War. I'm willing to sacrafice those in the unlikely event he meets my terms. Besides, I've already put the proposed bargain on the table. Would not look too ethical to renege, and i'd lose the ability to strike similar deals in the future.
Ben Masel: 51,282 votes for US Senate in the Wisconsin Democratic Primary
Thanks for this post. I especially appreciated this line, but not for it's intended purpose. Frankly, it made me cringe....
The terrorists who struck The World Trade Center want a world run by an archaic, theocratic totalitarianism with eye-for-an-eye style justice meted out by them and their hand-picked like-minded sociopaths.
You know why? Because from my perspective, those hard line "conservatives" (very large air quotes) who run our government speak about this daily...
A slogan of the Texas republican party (of whom George W Bush is the most prominent member) states "The Republican Party of Texas affirms that the United States is a Christian nation." Several right-wing organizations actively state "Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government." Among other things, the push for Christian Theocracy is more thinly veiled at the top reaches of our power structure (and actually spoken openly in some circles) than it has been since 15th century Puritans.
In addition, today's "conservatives" are leading the push to increased usage of the Death penalty and increasing mandatory sentences while reducing or in some cases completely removing the judiciary's ability to diverge from these mandatory requirements due to extenuating circumstances. This is the first time in America, at least since the Salem Witch trials where the punishment for certain crimes far outstrips the damage or harm caused by that crime. One great example involves "crimes against children". While there are serious crimes perpetrated, the sentencing for such crimes has grown significantly out of proportion with actual research findings showing harm and danger to children. A simple pat on the butt or even a hand on the shoulder can net a mandatory minimum sentence of more than 10 years, though studies show that non-penetrative abuse is statistically shown to have very small long term effects on children when the issue is treated with open discussion, trust and patience.
Small-time drug usage also has been shown to have statistically very little negative effect on society as a whole, but is punished with ever-increasing sentences that far outstrip the crime.
On top of this, top officials in our government often speak of the courts or opposition parties as "getting in the way of progress" when they strike down things like the patriot II and DMCA or the Internet Decency Act... when in reality they are struck down because they grossly infringe on our rights as citizens and people. The proper reaction is to be embarassed that they would make the MISTAKE of outstripping their power,but instead they vow revenge and simply re-write the bills with more "sneaky" language to see if they can get them passed in a second round of voting.
Then, they push laws giving the executive branch power to overrule (war powers act) and oversee (2001 PROTECT act) the legislative branch and judicial branch. Soon, they are appointing chairmen sympathetic to their cause regardless of their qualifications to handle the job and instituting collective organizations through wich they can better consolidate the power base and coordinate covert activities and actions. And a small bit of trivia, KGB loosely translates to "Comittee for Motherland Security" through which most Soviet intelligence and covert operations took place. That was Stalin's equivalent to consolidate his power into a single state entity that reported directly to him rather than to other arms of his power base.
I won't even go into the list of seven countries who have directly violated UN resolutions in the last 5 years (S Korea, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, US) or the countries that have executed minors in the last 25 years (Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, US) or the first-world countries that currently prisioners without trial and without recourse (uhhh US, maybe Russia, China, if they count) or should I point out that the US was the second greatest contributor to what are referred to today as "terrorist organizations", as recent
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Smith,
We regret to inform you that a year ago your daughter was arrested, tried for murder and was executed after being found guilty. You were not informed of this because it was kept confidential until this week. We promise you that your daughter had the best public defender available. Your daughter was thereafter taken and burried in a memorial graveyard in washington erected for famous political activists.
President of the FBI
[Stamp Here]
He really said "The terrerists will not win....cause I'll beat em to it"
It's called Permanent War, and it's great for endless corporate profits! By the way, the War on Sex has been around for a while, only it tends to be targeted exclusively at women sex workers.
Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
Does anyone have a nice link or document that summarizes/analyzes some of the worst aspects of this act? I wouldn't exactly love to poke through the whole thing looking for it, and I'm not a legal expert.
The EFF does a lot of good work fighting things like the PATRIOT Act, the Broadcast Flag (which we won!), etc. Go here to find a form letter that you can send to your representatives automatically through the EFF (and/or print and snail mail).
I dr005=4z3rtw4op1.app6a&page=UserAction&cmd=display &id=143
/. we should all try to stop it.
https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?JServSession
Think about donating some money (tax deductable) to help as well.
Instead of complaining on
We eleted Bubba, right? But then again, that wasn't his real name.
It's the sensible attitude. When it comes down to it, you're not going to do enough with your life to change anything. But you can enjoy your life. You can enjoy your family. You can enjoy your friends. How do you think people in communist countries and dictatorships manage? The important thing to them isn't politics or changing the world. It's living day to day and trying to keep a smile on their face and enjoy their community. And as long as they have comfort in their own personal world, they can survive whatever bullshit state their government and country are in.
Yeah, because the tobacco industry is nothing but a bunch of liberals...?
Btw, how does the US taxation office get to know about your income when living in another country anyway? It's not like your local employer will be forced by local law to send in your income details to them...
In practice, they won't, and aren't going to bother trying to find out unless you're a movie star flaunting your wealth or something. I've lived overseas for many many years, and only filed a U.S return once during that time; the IRS (U.S. taxation office) seems not to have noticed.
The U.S. only claims taxes on foreign income over $70,000 (I last looked at this over a decade ago; it may be different now), and the whole mess seems intended mostly for people that go overseas for short stints at very high pay; the examples in the instructions are all things like petroleum engineers working for 6 months in Saudi Arabia!
We live, as we dream -- alone....
"There are times when we must all endure adjustments to the constitution in the name of security." - Palpatine, Episode III
The democrats are not democrats. They are "Socialist" wackjobs registered under the party name of Democrat. If you really want to help, get the repubs and democrats out of office and vote for Libertarian. This country needs fresh blood in Washington DC in the political arena.
Of course, the Libertarians will really need to bust their ass in gear NOW if they want to gain momentum for 08 elections.
Life is not for the lazy.
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/lit-med/lit-med-db/we
The Handmaid's Tale is set in the futuristic Republic of Gilead. Sometime in the future, conservative Christians take control of the United States and establish a dictatorship.
I agree with the direction of your post; I don't like the PATRIOT act any more than you do.
... which meant that they were removed from a lot of the judicial excesses of the Middle Ages. You want to talk about disproportionate punishments? Try trial by combat. That was mainstream justice in the Middle Ages
But I think you should leave the Puritans out of this.
For one thing, they were 17th century, not 15th
For another thing, the Puritans had nothing on the Anglicans for harsh penalties. How about the death penalty for theft? It was common practice in Elizabethan England.
For another, the Witch Trials in Salem were chump change compared to the witch craze in Europe. The Salem Puritans hanged 17 for witchcraft, from Feb. 1692 till Jan. 1693, until the governor with the support of a prominent pastor (Increase Mather) put a stop to it. In Europe, between 15,000 and 60,000 women were BURNED AT THE STAKE for witchcraft. The Puritans were creatures of their times, but certainly no worse and probably a lot better.
Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
Be my guest, I can't be bothered to figure out if CopyRight or CopyLeft would apply :)
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
"All we ask;
is that you use the same amount of effort
the United States will
to win this war against freedom."
-- G.W. Bush, Sept. 27, 2001
at O'Hare International Airport
Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
I've been called a 'troll' several times too, but mostly by small-minded people that didn't like what I had to say, because it involved criticism.
But so what? It's proof one is doing something good, I say, if people try to use a common fallacy (claiming someone is a troll to invalidate what he says, while, even *IF* he was a troll, it still wouldn't say anything about the validity of *what* he said) to shut you up.
That said - and mind you, I have had experience with (the stiffling of) free speech, as one can see on my blog - I do think slashdot is one of the greatest systems invented yet, to allow ALL people their free speech. It is true: things that are considered crap get a low rating, and people can decide to skip that, but in principle, you ARE given the possibility to speak your mind and to be read by the public that wishes so.
Look at this thread: even while you are on 'troll, -1' I still read your post, and I still replied.
So, first of all, I doubt you are being targeted for political reasons; slashdot may have a 'libertarian' viewpoint most of the time, there are enough zealots from the right and left (both to the extremes and not) to be pretty balanced on the pure political side.
But, even if you *are* being targeted for political reasons, it is incorrect to claim your right to free speech has been taken away. If they would *delete* it, yes, then you might have a point. But because the readers rate your postings low, does not mean you are derived of your free speech right on this forum, IMHO.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
"You are assuming only people who believe as you do are 'sophisticated'. There are plenty of sophisticated people who do not agree with you."
;-)
Name two!
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
I said that this doesn't decree us as a fascist state. Again, the Holocause happened to places Germany had aquired. It was a government ABUSING it's own people. Likewise, if you read the article the abuse and torture was not condoned by the government. Nobody had said "this is good, let's keep doing it". There is a distinct difference there. You can't take horrors of war into account when condemning a nation. If so, then all nations would be condemned.
click me
Jefferson didn't have to deal with the privatized power of corporations, empowered by government to oppress people once the government lost its franchise. Jefferson's work stated clearly that people have rights, and we create governments to protect them. Now that we have corporations, all we've got is government to protect our rights from those corporations.
Jefferson warned about corporations:
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
FalconThomas Jefferson, 1814
Should there be a Law?
Who, me? In what way don't I have a clue? Where am I wrong?
FalconShould there be a Law?
... ending it, or scaling it back? I think the Patriot Act is a good thing. Who knows.. if we had a similar policy in place before 9/11, maybe some things would have turned out a little differently.
VOTE!
Arlen Specter
711 Hart Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
(202) 224-4254
Dianne Feinstein
331 Hart Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
(202) 224-3841
Mike DeWine
140 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
(202) 224-231
Joe Biden
201 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
(202) 224-5042
where can you learn more about this? any books to recommend?
If anything, this place is pretty right-wing. Hackers tend towards anarchism and libertarianism; most of the politics I've seen here, and indeed in this discussion, have been along the lines that government should get the hell out of our lives as much as possible.
Hmmmm... I tend to be pretty much left-wing (as are many others on Slashdot) so I don't think your "analysis" really holds.
When people argue that the left is "tends to prefer government intervention to solve social problems" it usually means these kinds of problems:
* child labor
* unions
* clean air and water
* health programs
* anti-descrimination laws
* inequality in the workplace
* sexual harrassment
The list goes on. Are these social problems? Of course! Should the government care? Of course!
Today's right wing is no longer the party of "small government, balanced budget", but the party of deficits and larger government. It is the party that argues that the Downing Street Memo doesn't matter and that WMD's were NEVER the reason we went to Iraq. It is the part that listens to Exxon-Mobil in regards to global warming and was ready to make a office for Ken Lay of Enron. Government solely exists to make business happy. Screw the citizens.
But you knew all of this...
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
Put another point on the board for Bush, the extension of the PATRIOT Act is a huge impediment on personal rights, personal freedoms, and personal liberty. No big deal right? Bush convinces us all to simply look the other way - perhaps diverting our attention to the current terror level, that changes weekly for no apparent reason - while he goes right ahead and imprisons American citizens without respect for due process. By the time our four year sentence is up, we will truly live under a dictator!! "All restraints on man's liberty, not necessary for the simple maintenance of justice are of the nature of slavery, and differ from each other only in degree!" -Lysander Spooner, Lawyer, 1808-1887
What has hell froze over? here come the thought police. Anything conducted in secrecy has the potential of being abused in very parnoid dillusional ways. America don't give in to fear!
A: Are you kidding? Russia is far from becoming democratic, more like sinking back to dictatorship.
B: Are you kidding? America is far from remaining democratic, more like sinking into a dictatorship.
You're both right. The propositions are not mutually exclusive.
-kgj
-kgj
There was once a country which opposed these instruments of tyrrany. I'd like to see that country again someday.
Simple.
* If you are paying tribute or taxes to your oppressor, stop paying.
* If your oppressor billets his troops on your soil, kill them.
Not your country -- not somebody -- you personally must stop paying tribute, and kill the garrison troops. Such is the nature of revolution.
-kgj
-kgj
If aliens came to Earth to impose a "more enlightened" form of liberal society with technological advances in trasportation and medicine, I'd probably be out setting roadside bombs to stop them and targeting collaborators.
Iraq is being colonized, not freed. Why would I want to go there???
The message coming from Iraq is very clear. "Get the FUCK out of our country." They don't want us there. And I gladly respect that.
Oh BTW, since you're a "believer", when are you enlisting and volunteering for Iraq duty????
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!