Slashdot Mirror
Canada's Do-Not-Hesitate-To-Call List
An anonymous reader writes "The creation of a do-not-call list in Canada has run into
trouble. Michael Geist reports that the proposal has been effectively destroyed, with exceptions for just about every telemarketer including businesses, political parties, polling companies, and charities. The government committee apparently heard from the marketers but refused to listen to consumer groups."
...to test out the anti-telemarketing counterscript ;-)
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
I would like to thank Canada for creating a place where a lonely person like me can go to have constant human contact via phone calls. I will now be able to live a much fuller life if I move to Canada.
The subject says it all. It could also be a solution: /. the telemarketers
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
...derailed so well, that even TFA link isn't working, and this is the top post!
I'm moving to the U.S.!
With pre-emptive slashdotting, the target website is obliterated BEFORE any slashdotter has any chance of seeing it!
In the U.S., the Do Not Call Registry was about as effective as well. The bosses signed up our business phone lines and nothing has really changed. We still get on average of 20-50 solicitation calls a day.
That doesn't sound like much, but for a small mom-n-pop ISP run by 4 guys and a dog with 2 phone lines, it's awful. Fwiw, we're all pretty good at screening calls via Caller ID.
Good luck to our fellow Canadian brethren, whether they've disowned us or not.
do() || do_not();
Canada is a capitalist nation, just like most modern nations. Just because you live in Canada doesn't exempt you from having your "rights" and concerns over-ridden with the more important rights and concerns of revenue making, tax-paying, politician lobbying private industries.
I'm moving to Canada!
The way I think it works out now is that if you sign on to the Canadian Do-Not-Call list you will only receive calls from businesses, political parties, polling companies, and charities.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
These damn Frist Post/Frosty Piss... whatever posts!
Let's start a do-not-post list too! =)
That's our Canadian government - always looking out for the little guys. Those much maligned mega marketers, the poorly pictured political parties and poll promulgators, the little lobbyests languishing in the face of previously proposed changes to our country's telecommunications laws.
What ever were we thinking in our attempts to wrest the right to remain "unlisted" and "untapped"?
How dare we expect to have the right to not be disturbed in the midst of our daily ablutions by the ring-ring-ringing of the telephone?
I am (almost) at a loss for words, but I'm certain that if I wait a bit, someone new will call me and try to sell me their own.
Sadly it appears that my government is no longer similar to the American's "of the people, by the people, for the people", but "to the people".
Finance? Network maintenance? Answer the phone! Yes, that will at least leave the marketeers minions puzzled.
Overhere we have ineffective do not call systems too, but usually there is not more than 1 phone call every two weeks, so it does not really matter (yet).
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
Apparently, the web site has been effectively destroyed (and infinitives have been effectively split) as well.
The article is gone, but if the businesses that are exempted are those with a pre-existing relationship with you, that would be the same as the American Do Not Call list.
just do what I did, and get cell plan where you get refund for received calls.
I've almost paid my last months phone bill, just by talking with telemarketers.
You can easily keep them talking for about 30 minutes by asking everything about the product they're selling.
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
So effective was the destruction that even the content of the link in the summary has gone! (Firefox says "This document contains no data")
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
Mom-n-pop ISP ... 4 guys ... 1 dog?
Any puppies yet?
Where's the "mom" in the mom-n-pop? If it's just you 4 guys and the dog...
Tired of junk phone calls? Call Industry Minister now
MICHAEL GEIST
In a scene that unfolds in millions of homes each day, dinner is interrupted by an unsolicited telemarketing call. Some Canadians immediately hang up, while others wait patiently for the marketer's speech to conclude. No matter the response, virtually everyone finds the calls invasive, disruptive, time-consuming, and incredibly annoying.
Several years ago, the United States introduced legislation designed to curb unwanted telemarketing calls. A statutory "do not call" list was created allowing individuals to place their phone number on a list that, with limited exceptions, marketers were forbidden from calling. Since failure to abide by the wishes of those listed carries significant penalties, the U.S. approach has proven remarkably successful with more than 90 million numbers now registered.
Having observed the U.S. system with envy, Ottawa's introduction last December of Bill C-37, which creates a Canadian do-not-call list, drew near-universal praise -- even the Canadian Marketing Association welcomed the bill.
The bill established the broad framework necessary for a do-not-call list, including the statutory powers needed to create the list and penalties for non-compliance. The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, Canada's telecom regulator, was asked to develop the specific details in a public consultation once the bill became law.
Following its introduction, Bill C-37 was referred to the Standing Committee on Industry, Natural Resources, Science and Technology for review. Months later, the amended bill is virtually unrecognizable, as intense lobbying has transformed the do-not-call list into the do-not-hesitate-to-call list.
Rather than leaving the specific exemptions to an open public consultation, the committee introduced several changes to the bill that dramatically reduces its effectiveness. These include exceptions for charities, political parties, polling companies, and businesses with existing business relationships. While it may come as little surprise to find politicians protecting their own ability to make unsolicited telemarketing calls, the inclusion of the existing business relationship exception is particularly damaging as it renders the do-not-call list practically useless.
The existing business relationship provision will allow businesses to contact former customers for up to a year and a half after their last communication or contract (notwithstanding the inclusion of their phone number on the do-not-call list). Moreover, even a simple inquiry will give businesses a six-month window to ignore the presence of the number on the do-not-call list.
It is readily apparent that the avalanche of nightly calls is likely to continue unabated
Canadians may register their phone numbers on the do-not-call list, but it is readily apparent that the avalanche of nightly calls is likely to continue unabated. For example, under the revised rules, if you spend one night in a hotel, the hotel chain can call you for the next 18 months, even if you register your phone number on the do-not-call list. Similarly, if you call a long-distance provider for information about their latest plan, they can call you for the next six months. All of this is in addition to the blanket exception for charitable calls, calls from political parties, and polling company calls seeking participation in surveys.
Supporters of the do-not-hesitate-to-call list argue that the Canadian exceptions mirror those found in the U.S. Although it is true that the U.S. has created some similar exceptions, the Canadian exceptions go much further than their U.S counterparts. For instance, the exception period for a mere inquiry is twice as long in Canada as it is in the U.S.
Moreover, supporters of the amended proposal note that telemarketers will be required to maintain company-specific internal do-not-call lists so Canadians can request no further phone calls on an individual company basi
Just be less polite. If everybody just hangs up on the marketeers once they start talking, it should stop fast enough (no income anymore=exit scheme, onto the next one: Pop-up and pop under adds, exit pages, etc EVIL LAUGH).
The marketeers are usually trying to be persistent by just saying things like: you don't know what I am going to offer.
If telemarketing anoys you, just hang up, do not even say goodbye anymore, you don't know them, you don't owe them, so what do you care.
Sofar my advice to make canadians less polite.
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
"Telemarketing" == "Phone SPAM"
I suggest you read Slashdot
...it gives the truly twisted an opportunity to counterstrike the telemarketer with a reverse crank call. I've done this for years and extracted some interesting responses on sexual orientation, inclinations, and practices before they know it. Sometimes you're fighting to keep composed and not break down in suffocating laughter.
As far as looking out for the privacy of Canadian citizens however, it does suck.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
if you're fortunate enough to have a username that most dictionary attacks won't try.
unfortunately, i do not.
BilldaCat
Rephrasing the submission:
The creation of a do-not-call list article in Canada has run into trouble. Michael Geist's report about the proposal has been effectively destroyed, with exceptions for just about anyone but slashdot. The slashdot editors committee apparently heard from the submitters but refused to listen to reader groups.
I wish there was a way to stop the telemarketers as well as the door to door marketers. Both I believe to be equal scum. I couldn't care less about your product/service/religion/charity.
If I ever need your product or service, i'll find you.
If I want to turn to god and follow your church, i'll find you.
If I want to give my hard earned dollars to your charity, i'll find you.
If people would stop giving money to these cold calls maybe one day they will stop.
Just a number of months ago, people on /. were patting the Canadian gov't on the back for protecting the little guy from the spammer. Now it doesn't go your way and they are the r00t of all evil?
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
This works, as long as your Friends and Family can keep their Windoze machines clean. If your F & F overrate their PC skills and diligence, then your "real" email address is taken and you get spammed. Been there, done that! AC
refused to listen to consumer groups
;)
They're Canadian's, what could they possibly have to say
May be the questions can be directed at the telemarketing company (or his/her manager) instead? Like, "In a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 as totally agree, how would you rate the statement 'your boss is an a-hole'?".
"Government program fails to help taxed consumers."
"Law turns rare victims into frequent ones."
"Elected officials support their real constituents."
When has any regulation on industry regulated anyone but the non-business owner? All regulations are created for one reason: scarcity.
Government created scarcity increases profits by decreasing wealth. Regulations keep favored businesses safe from new competition.
There are many free market programs to reduce phone spam. On my cell, I create favored call lists and "everyone else." The everyone else ring tone is silent. If a voice mail confirms I missed a favored caller, I'll add them to the ring list.
No one needs any form of regulation from government at any level as they all create favoritism and don't fix any problem. Even pollution regulations are better controlled by the free market. Heavy polluters get blasted by watchdog groups, cleaner emitters get praised and consumers make the decision who succeeds and who fails.
To stop them calling you was adopted by my father. He was so shamelessly unpleasant to whoever called up that one by one the telemarketing companies began to put him on their own do-not-call lists. It took a good couple of years to stop them entirely but he hasn't had a cold call in years now.
So folks, be creative in your insults and maybe get a little bit of free anger-relief therapy at the same time.
Not very pleasant if you're a telemarketer yourself, though.
Sometimes I like to keep the telemarketers on the phone for a while, then I put them on hold. I also pretend I'm retarded and such. It's great. If they're gonna call, they're gonna call. Might as well have a little fun with the bastards.
In principle, the do-not-call registry sounds like a great idea.
However, telephone solicitation is very important to business, to charities, and to political organizations. How do we balance their needs with citizens' wants?
I think it's very important that political groups especially are allowed to reach out to people in the community. Unfortunately, most people here in the US are ridiculously undereducated about political issues. What I'd like to see is a proscription against soliciting over the phone, so that information could still be passed along.
This would help reduce how much certain subsets of the population are taken advantage of by telemarketers.
It's not that hard to hang up the phone, or to screen calls. I've set my phone to ring silently if the call is from someone not in my caller ID. I erase telemarketer numbers every couple days.
At this point, at least here in the US, I am very against any action that would limit political participation -- it's low enough already. Polling and grassroots campaigning are vital to how our political system operates today, and should not be abrogated.
However, I think any individual should have the ability to deny a specific organiztion the right to contact them. If the NRA contacts me, I only want to tell them once to go to hell. Instead, I find myself telling them weekly.
What I've got to do now is advise them I am recording the call, and record myself telling them not to ever call me again -- both the NRA and the telemarketing firm doing the calling. Then follow up with a fax repeating my instructions.
Then, when they call again, record that conversation also. Write them a letter stating that I will take them to court unless they wish to settle for, say, $250. I bet they'd settle, since lawyers are too expensive.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
I've read accounts of people making thousands by bleeding the beast in this manner.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
AC is right. Business numbers can be placed on the list, but they are not enforceable.
Also, I bet that as an ISP, you deal with companies who are affiliated with other companies, and can try to use the loophole for existing business relationships -- if they have any sort of business relationship to you, or you've ever called or contacted them, then they can market to you unless you explicitly tell them to only call you on existing business.
Procrastination -- because good things come to those who wait.
I bumped into a guy via a cellphone mailing list, whose company has a dialling product that hangs up if it detects a human at the other end. But if it detects an answerphone, it delivers its advert. You have to wonder about people who actually design something like that, and the client companies that think it's the best way to get the message across. The guy does stuff for IBM, which we certainly filed away for future reference.
Score +4 Informative
I know a guy who always gets his three year old daughter to talk to the telemarketers. Apparently it is quite entertaining.
------- Mark
Unfortunately, I tried this. Religiously. Then someone who I had sent email to before had their address book stolen by a virus. Now I get spam.
Random and weird software I've written.
Mirrordot has partial copies of recent /. articles and more importantly, copies to their links.
Here's a direct link to "has been completely destroyed".
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Just feed Eliza some random input from an irc channel and pipe its output into ATT&T TTS system and then into the phone for the telemarketer.
Option 2)
And if you are really lucky (and spammed), team up two telemarketers with each other, just as we saw with skype here.
If you RTFA, it is proposed opposition amendments that would destroy the no-call list. These amendments have zero chance of becoming law.
The proposed government amendment - to allow subscribers to exempt charities - sounds fine to me.
Let the market fix it.
As people get progressively more annoyed at less targetted advertising it will no longer be cost effective, and it will stop.
The less interested I am, the ruder I am. Maybe the companies will stop calling me, maybe that telemarketer will quit their job, maybe they'll go postal and take out their office. I don't really care. Drive up the cost of marketting like this, and never buy, then they'll stop.
As for wasting their time, I'm not willing to waste mine either.
Sheesh, if I want to "participate" in democracy, I'll donate when I want, how much I want. Don't call us, we'll call you. I don't want your damned phone calls. Before you wank on about non-participation, yes I'm a US citizen and I've voted in every election since I registered.
Charities are worse, call me at 8:30 AM when I'm trying to get out the door to go to work? You won't get anything from me.
Cry me a fucking river. Do you think most people give a shit about that? And do businesses, charities, and political organizations feel they are benefitted by pissing people off?
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
"Hi, my name is Sharon. I'm not trying to sell you anything, but I would like to inform you about the wonderful opportunities available to you courtesy of product X from company Y..."
Calls like this are, in some ways, even more annoying than normal telemarketers. At least the other sort *admit* what they're doing.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
Don't answer your phone... Mine has been on an answering machine since about 1980. We talk to each other by leaving messages on each other's machines. Keeps the phone bill down too.
Oh well, what the hell...
You wouldn't happen to be in Rolla would you?
Hmmm witty sig or funny sig? Maybe elitest techy sig!
Procrastination -- because good things come to those who wait.
If you RTFA, it is proposed opposition amendments that would destroy the no-call list. These amendments have zero chance of becoming law.
...
The proposed government amendment - to allow subscribers to exempt charities - sounds fine to me.
Unlike the US, where one party dominates and has majorities in all houses, in Canada even the "majority" party has to maintain coalitions to get legislation passed.
So it's not impossible for the amendments to happen, and public pressure is probably all that can help.
But hey, I used to play pranks on the Liberal Whip back in my college days, when I went to a college many future politicians in Canada attended, so what do I know
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
It's not that Canada's great, but simply better.
That said, it's not exactly difficult for a first world country to beat a third world religious fundamentalist near dictatorship, regardless of how rich it is.
I'll have you know that in addition to milk and honey, we also have Tim Horton's... Mmm... utopia..
Live forever, or die trying.
50.7% of the popular vote (from 47.9% in 2000) isn't a landslide in anyone's vocabulary. You could just about call it a majority, or a mandate, but not a landslide.
Read the FAQ at donotcall.gov:
t .htm
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/alerts/dncalr
Specifically, point # 14 clearly states that busines to business calls are not protected.
First, there's the automated systems which hold the line for a few seconds while they switch to an available representative. I just hang up on those before I ever have to talk to someone. If you're calling me you'd better be ready to talk to me right away.
:-)
Second, if somebody asks to talk to the occupant or asks for me by my full name (and the way they ask it usually indicates they are a telemarketer), I just say "he's not home" and hang up. Maybe there's a lot of telemarketers out there that think I'm my own gay lover
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
Seems to me that can just make this list website like this:
Who do you want to call you:
[X] Telemarketers
[X] Charities
[X] Political Parties
[X] Police warning about crime in your area
[X] Use this choice for any new catetories
Would you like to back that claim up, or are you just repeating the often-debunked urban legend?
I've never understood the left-wing rubes that want to "flee to Canada" whenever Bushitler does something they dislike (such as getting reelected in a landslide this time)
Lets see...
Republican Bush
(Incumbent)
62,040,606 51% 286
Democratic Kerry
59,028,109 48% 252
51%... now, what's a landslide again?
Main Entry: 1landslide
Pronunciation: 'lan(d)-"slId
Function: noun
1 : the usually rapid downward movement of a mass of rock, earth, or artificial fill on a slope; also : the mass that moves down
2 a : a great majority of votes for one side b : an overwhelming victory
Oh, yeah, 51%! WOW! That is overwhelming! It's not, you know, just barely over the oponent's results, noooo, it's HUGE!
You can't take the sky from me...
I'm wondering how and to who this list is distributed? Hopefully it isn't possible for a businesses/political parties/charities to use this list to get phone numbers and people to call. But since it was originally meant as a list of people not to call I can foresee where such safety mechanisms where not put in place.
The posting's misleading, unfortunately, like so many on Slashdot lately.
The proposed bill does not grant an exception to the do-not-call list to all businesses; it grants an exception to businesses that have an *existing* business relationship with you. Still not good, but a random telemarketer won't be allowed to call you if you're not already a customer one way or another.
Michael's article is quite clear in this regard, too. I really wish the Slashdot editors would check submissions for factual accuracy instead of blindly accepting any sensationalist story - Slashdot really seems to be becoming the tabloid news outlet of the internet, which is rather unfortunate.
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
The way I think it works out now is that if you sign on to the Canadian Do-Not-Call list you will only receive calls from businesses, political parties, polling companies, and charities.
Seriously though, isn't that just true of landlines in general? Has anyone received a useful call on a landline in the past few years, one where the caller would not have called your mobile if they hadn't got through?
If the call is important, someone will pay 50p/min to call my mobile, or they'll call me on my mobile for free as part of their bundled mobile minutes. If they'll only call my landline, the call can't be important.
The solution to telemarketting is to price them out of the market. One way is to waste their time. Another is; don't answer your landline. Just use your mobile. Heck, half the time I don't even have a handset connected to my landline. It just exists to provide ADSL.
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
No one needs any form of regulation from government at any level
Off course not.
No one would ever compromise security for profit by cutting corners. Never happen in a million years.
You can't take the sky from me...
This pisses me off. In just the last week alone I've had several marketting calls to my mobile. I've a feeling it didn't even ring on a couple of occasions. It costs me money to check my voice mail, only to discover it's unwanted crap. They're probably in some violation of CRTC regulations, but nobody seems to care.
It probably has to do with Canada's attempts to provide universal health care, the apparent lack of religious extremists and gun nuts, as well as the apparent air of politeness.
Whether or not those things actually exist or not, the appearance is there which makes it an attractive option for escapists.
I'd be out of here myself, but coming up with the $100K+ to make yourself an attractive proposition for foreign emigration is next to impossible given my current financial standing.
"My God...it's full of trolls!"
Ok, I'll bite the troll.
Serious factual errors here. Firstly, your link is about someone being called before a provincial human rights tribunal, not a (federal) court. In any case, it would likely be overturned eventually because we DO have free speech, and we don't get cordoned off into "Free Speech Zones" to exercise it.
Next, the Bush re-election a "landslide"? He clearly won, but 'tis no landslide, English.
I think the nickname "America Lite" is inaccurate. Let me count the ways:
- have had a female PM
- legal gay marriage
- universal health care
- order of magnitude lower incarceration rate
Now I'm not claiming this is the "Land of Good Government". We have some serious fiscal repsonsibility issues, and the "privatize everything" crowd has made some gains of late, no to mention that most of the country is pretty damned cold in January. It's no utopia, but as anyone who has been here can attest to, it's cleaner, safer, and offers a significantly higer standard of living in general.
And by the way, we do have calling list rules. I use the magical "Please remove me from your call list", as well as registering on the CMA's site. After a couple of months of that, I'm down to about 2 to 3 calls a month, which I consider to be quite manageable.
Over here, the politicians go out to public places and meet the public. People can go up and talk to them, and they talk back to you. You can even go to the booths and troll them a bit, you know, catch them off-guard with questions they can't answer (and they even admit to not being able to answer them.) They have a lot of ways of getting their message out. They don't need to harass people over the phone. The Norwegian populace is otherwise generally very educated and very informed.
And then you have other countries (not going to mention any names) where the politicians have bodyguards to keep the yucky proletarians away, and the only questions that are asked have been prepared ahead of time, and asked by people who were specially selected ahead of time. Unlike in other countries, where political organizations hire their little cronies to harass people on the phone.
So I'll repeat myself - I don't give a shit about anyone who feels they have some kind of right to harass me over the phone - whether it be to sell their shit or push their dumbass political agenda (back in the US it was usually various flavors of halleluja-freakballs that called). They can all fucking get ebola and die!
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
The proposed bill does not grant an exception to the do-not-call list to all businesses; it grants an exception to businesses that have an *existing* business relationship with you. Still not good, but a random telemarketer won't be allowed to call you if you're not already a customer one way or another.
So, let's just examine CIBC for example. Let's say Joe Canuck has a checking account with them. Now he has a relationship with them.
Ah, so only they will phone, right?
Wrong. Now CIBC can call you, anyone in their umbrella corporation can call you about:
- insurance
- trips to Barbados
- Cuban cigars
- investing in mining stock in Brazil
- buying a timeshare in Guadaloupe
When you do business with one firm, you are doing business with ALL the firms that corporation owns, under the definitions.
And that, my friend, is just plain wrong. It should be opt-in.
If I have a telephone in BC, then I have no choice but to have their corporation get my permission for all their "corporations" to phone me. When I have a checking account or a credit card, that's hundreds of corporations that can now phone me.
To you it's a small door.
To me, it's hundreds of doors that I didn't even know about existing in the first place.
Now, mind you, I'm basing this on my Business Management degree from Capilano College and some law courses I took in high school in B.C., but I doubt it's changed that much.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
...we have the Telephone Preference Service with whom you can register and cut down on telemarketing calls. It does not work with those pesky market research/survey calls, however.
They are a real nuisance, especially that alleged "random dial" business (which I think should be made a criminal offence). I was once random-dialled three times in a weekend. And I still haven't won the lottery.
(On the other hand, I do have a small modicum of sympathy for the poor bugger on the other end of the line. Let's face it: it must be one shitty deal, and I think a lot of them are students trying to work off a debt.)
So far, I've been called by every credit card company and several telemarking survey thingy people... Each and every one of them, I've told them to take me off their call list or add me to their do not call list.
I've never heard from them again.
'Twixt Light and Darkness... S S H A D O W
Yeah, right. If you actually believe that worldnetdaily.com has any credibility then please don't emigrate. Canada is certainly not perfect but, truth be told, there's nowhere else I'd rather be!
The do-not-call-list has worked great for me. Since I signed up I have gotten zero telemarketers. Just a couple pollsters. After I got VoIP (kept my phone number), I started getting telemarketer calls again and i thought the do-not-call thing wasn't working. Then I learned that any time the service on a number is change in any way (such as going from POTS to VoIP) it gets removed from the list and you have to add it again. I added it again and the calls stopped.
I don't really know why your business is still getting calls. Are you getting called by telemarketers or just cold calls from B2B sales people? Perhaps they are calling one of the numbers in your hunt group and not your main number? Did you add ALL your businesses numbers to the list? Most businesses will have a group of numbers with one "main" number that autoforwards to a free line in a group.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
Oh, for fuck's sakes. Americans get just as many bullshit cases like that then we do. That's why there is a -justice- system. This will be analyzed and thrown out due to human rights issues and previous case history.
Before you claim the following:
but at least we still have freedom of religion and speech, unlike Canada
Read our fucking Bill of Rights:
PART I BILL OF RIGHTS
Recognition and declaration of rights and freedoms
1. It is hereby recognized and declared that in Canada there have existed and shall continue to exist without discrimination by reason of race, national origin, colour, religion or sex, the following human rights and fundamental freedoms, namely,
(a) the right of the individual to life, liberty, security of the person and enjoyment of property, and the right not to be deprived thereof except by due process of law;
(b) the right of the individual to equality before the law and the protection of the law;
(c) freedom of religion;
(d) freedom of speech;
(e) freedom of assembly and association; and
(f) freedom of the press.
How can exposing someone's identity possibly lead to more protections from telemarketer? This is just like the 'unsubscribe' features in mailbox, ie. total BS. Even without VOIP, spammer can just fake its own caller ID[1], effectively avoiding legal consequences for calling numbers in do-not-call list. The do-not-call list is just a telemarketer's tactic to distract consumer groups! To truly be effective, a government should only use a DO-CALL-LIST that only lists numbers for which the owners want to be contacted by telemarketers, and only the ones permitted by the owner of the phone line can call to.
o fing&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
[1] http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=caller+id+spo
...is to figure out how to contact the Direct Marketing Association (or its Canuck equivalent; I forget its name) and get struck off the list.
I did this nearly a decade ago and I have *no telemarketing calls* save three local charities that aren't members of the DMA.
Unfortunately, I failed to save the information. I recall I obtained it by calling the telco and getting downright irate about the attempts by Sprint Cda to slam me into one of their plans. Somehow or other I finagled a phone number from the customer service rep...
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
No one needs any form of regulation from government at any level as they all create favoritism and don't fix any problem. Even pollution regulations are better controlled by the free market. Heavy polluters get blasted by watchdog groups, cleaner emitters get praised and consumers make the decision who succeeds and who fails.
So when are you moving to New Orleans? Tomorrow?
I thought so.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
... when she (only works for she's) ask "are you interested in ....", answering "no, but i'm really interested in your underwear/favourite position/whether you swallow" or something equally offensive.
Never had the nerve tho ....
i hate to pick *but* the Bill of Rights isnt worth the paper its written on, you should instead quote the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms located at http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/ which actually holds legal weight.
While it may come as little surprise to find politicians protecting their own ability to make unsolicited telemarketing calls, the inclusion of the existing business relationship exception is particularly damaging as it renders the do-not-call list practically useless.
The existing business relationship provision will allow businesses to contact former customers for up to a year and a half after their last communication or contract (notwithstanding the inclusion of their phone number on the do-not-call list).
Um, the US list has the same exemption for existing business relationships. It hasn't proven to be a major flaw in the system for most people on the DNC list.
People need to RTFA before flaming...
With the way that spam laws are generally (un)enforced, the US "Do Not Call" list offers very little hesitation of its own. Which spammer wouldn't datamine that goldmine of validated people/contacts with something to protect?
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make install -not war
I'm sorry, but you obviously didn't read the article. These are the OPPOSITION's amendments (the opposition being your beloved CONSERVATIVES) who want to protect their buddies in big business.
The government (i.e. liberal) amendment is to allow the person with the telephone number to say they want to exempt charities when they put themselves on the list. That's more reasonable, obviously.
Don't bother putting your foot in your mouth. We forgive you for your ignorance. You're obviously practicing to be an American.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
I have heard a lot of people combat telemarketers by feigning interest in the product or service and then asking the caller to hold while they get a pen and paper. Then they set the phone down and never come back on the line.
My sister used to work as a telemarketer. She told me that she LOVED these calls. The productivity software at the service bureau shows her as working a call. In actuality, she used the time to read, chat with friends, etc.
At the end of the day, she was credited for keeping a customer on the phone for 20 minutes.
While the workers may enjoy these calls it might still make sense as a way to hurt the companies bottom line.
I may just be the only one, but must ask, what telemarketers?
I get calls every week from my creditors, but they're my own damn fault. I only recieved one unsolicited call last year, and I took pity on the poor schmuck and did his 40 minute survey so he wouldn't have to worry about feeding his kids (read: drug habit) that night.
So, yeah, they can resist making a dnc list all they like, so far as I'm concerned, cuz I'm not harassed anywhere near as much as those poor folks I used to call almost 10 years ago, when I was a call-bot.
A couple fans told me that my last journal entry was mint; give it a shot. Hope you like.
Aiight then,
Quoth:
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b)
freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association.
Gmail also does that - just append +whatever.
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but make sure that the last line
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
--Aristotle
"What is it"
Actually it's my name, but because my last name is so rare it might was well be random.
Thanks for the pointer about spamgourmet.com, I'll give it a look.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Simple solution: Continously call the Canadian gov't officials who are amending the bill at their home phones and interrupt their dinner/evening every night. Maybe they will get the picture. I'm not Canadian, but I'm sure someone will be able to post the appropriate phone numbers.
Well, of course it's always possible to get spam. But a spam-free period of four years is pretty good.
And what's the worst that could happen? I'd create a NEW "real" account and start from scratch. None of my business accounts would be affected, as they are all different. I'd simply have to mass-email my friends and family with that new one. Problem solved in about three minutes.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
I never understand why every thread turns into US posters bashing anything that isn't US.
There is more to the planet than the US and in the next decade you will finally realize this.
As a Canadian I am insulted with the term "america lite" WTF is that? Typical yankee ignorance, and if we had a choice we would love to NOT share the continent with you idiots, do you know how much apologizing Canadians do on behalf of your ignorance?
It is this elitist attitude that got you attacked in the first place, have you not learned anything?
grow up
when in doubt press enter and we'll figure it out later..
Troll or not, I'll bite.
... I really like the BBC myself).
I've noticed a increasing anti-Canada bias in the American media these days (as judged by what they choose to report, and what they choose either not to report or greatly de-emphasise). I'm betting you are right of center politically and get your news from Fox or perhaps CNN? Becareful you aren't just following a different sheppard. (Suggestion: Try some external new sources
Government in Canada works primarily for interests of big-business and the rich -- with the good of the common citizen being sort of an afterthought. Caving in to marketers is just par for course. Usually our governments have this trait in common. Ironically, the biggest problem in USA today (from a right-wing perspective) is the deviation from this pattern. The US is bleeding money from every orfice: war-spending with dubious benefit to the US, huge trade-deficits, and now (just when you really didn't need it) Katrina. I think I can safely say all of Canada hopes this trend in the USA changes before it reaches critical mass (if you go down, we go down too...).
Just say "hang on for a second" put the phone down and walk away. That way you get 2-5 minutes of the telemarketers time and it keeps them from calling someone else for that time. Its also very annoying to them.
Telecommuting! What about socialization?
Come on, New Orleans? A city whose problems were grown more out of government incompetence than free market policy?
Want to rebuild New Orleans to be a Mecca of financial equity and help the impoverished become middle class? Create a 10-year lifting of all regulations and taxes.
You'll see entrepreneurs moving in and rebuilding. With today's rebuilding, it is all going to focus on wealth transfer from the responsible to the irresponsible. Government will add more people to the dole, and fewer people with actually desire to help the surrounding population will show up to do so.
Don't start on New Orleans. You know it is a problem created by bad government management at all levels, and the welfare state created the poverty that existed pre-Katrina.
ah, so you don't want to live there.
petard, meet hoist.
thought so.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
One day I will wake up here in Canada - and find one law - one regulation that isn't set up to screw me - and for a change screw the elites who are either rich or rich wanabes. But I won't hold my breath. Whatever happened "to making money the old fashioned way...by earning it"?!
There IS a very important exception that is pissing me off. I was basically telemarketer-free in the months following the DNC list. Very nice and quiet at home. Then my wife put our home phone number on her newly submitted business license, as we only have the one line.
Guess what? Businesses are not protected! We get several calls a day now. So word of warning, never put your home phone# as the official number of record on a home-based business.
(Telemarketers gained this "right" on the grounds that they might make sales calls from private phones and wanted to have customers redirected to their main offices. Yeah, right. The real reason is to bypass Caller ID screening.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I've switched to a 1-900 number now so that EVERYONE pays ME to call here. I will refund the charges to friends if they don't piss me off too bad.
...is telemarketers have to be creative. Have the CEO stand for some election, or something, then the company can claim to be political. Or have the company sponsor a charity, so the "primary purpose" of the call becomes publicising the charity - the sales pitch is merely an extra.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I present to you... THE TELECRAPPER 2000 TELEMARKETER INTERCEPTION SYSTEM
That's right. There is China too.
> However, telephone solicitation is very important to business, to charities, and to
> political organizations. How do we balance their needs with citizens' wants?
How much value is there in calling people who adamantly do not wish to be called?
> I think it's very important that political groups especially are allowed to reach out to
> people in the community.
Why political groups especially? What in your view makes them more special than other groups? Is it because you are concerned about political issues? If so, can't it be argued that charities have an equally legitimate concern with social issues?
> Unfortunately, most people here in the US are ridiculously undereducated about political issues.
No argument. What makes you believe that phone calls are an effective solution to this problem?
> What I'd like to see is a proscription against soliciting over the phone, so that information could still be passed along.
Define solicitation for this purpose. Dictionary.com defines this as:
---
1. To seek to obtain by persuasion, entreaty, or formal application: a candidate who solicited votes among the factory workers.
2. To petition persistently; importune: solicited the neighbors for donations.
3. To entice or incite to evil or illegal action.
4. To approach or accost (a person) with an offer of sexual services.
---
We can eliminate #4, and #3 is useless without defining 'evil'. But what you propose seem to me to fit both 1 and 2.
It seems as if you wish to permit soliciting permission to contact again, and requiring this before soliciting (funds, votes, purchasing, etc) in earnest begins.
> This would help reduce how much certain subsets of the population are taken advantage of by telemarketers.
So would eliminating all calls. I would favor allowing people to opt out entirely.
> It's not that hard to hang up the phone, or to screen calls. I've set my phone to ring silently
> if the call is from someone not in my caller ID. I erase telemarketer numbers every couple days.
Actually, you're wrong here. "It's not that hard to hang up the phone..." if and only if a -human being- calls you. If the call is like the majority I get, it is being dialed by a machine, which routes it to a person only -after- you pick up. Often, there is no person available, so I get several dozen calls followed by dead silence before getting the opportunity to tell them not to call again.
"...or to screen calls. I've set my phone to ring silently if the call is from someone not in my caller ID..." -if- you can filter all calls by caller ID. I can't; the majority of legitimate calls I get are from people who have caller ID blocked. Refusing to pick up would (eventually) be the same as saying "I quit; send me my last paycheck."
> At this point, at least here in the US, I am very against any action that would limit political
> participation -- it's low enough already.
I don't view cold calling people who don't want to be called as "political participation." YMMV, but please accept that you are applying your own definitions to some common terms. A search of Google on "political participation definition" returns this definition, which pretty much matches mine: "becoming involved in activities such as voting, running for political office, signing petitions and other activities which help citizens make an impact on public or political issues."
While cold calling may certainly be included in "other activities" the fact that it isn't given it's own place in this definition would imply that it isn't central, but peripheral. Again, this is just my definition; but aren't you using just your definition?
> Polling and grassroots campaigning are vital to how our political system operates today, and should not be abrogated.
They aren't being abrogated. But why does -anyone- have the r
The whole thing is rigged. When was the last time Canada had an english canadian Prime Minister with a proper mandate? Yes, you have to go back to Lester Pearson in 1965. The french have had all the full mandates since. Considering they are only 15% of the population, it has to be rigged. You can't tell me that english canadians have been voting for people like Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien, and Martin, frenchmen every one and 40 years of them.
This usually does work. Swearing, or hitting on them, works effectively. Be a skank on the skank-@$$ telemarketers. They'll eventually learn to leave you alone.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
How many times do you have to be told this to understand? Did your mother drop you too many times on the head when you were a baby or something?
SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T WANT TO BE CALLED! Why should they not have the right to put them on a "fuck off and leave me alone" list? If they are putting themselves on the list in the first place, they ought to be in the know. Or are you and your kind too fucking arrogant to realize and accept this?
There are better ways to come in contact with the people than harassment...
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
You know, Canada is really becoming a joke among western democracies. First it finally took Ontario until today to realize that one law for all citizens is so much better than "voluntary religious arbitration panels" for family court matters. Now a Do Not Call list that doesn't appear to restrict any special interest with money. And let's not even get into multiculturism. What next? Political asylum for wanted terrorists?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I do the same thing but I own a few domains..
All the unallocated email addresses for the domain goes into 1 account so it's an easy way to see who's selling your name.
If the people of Canada don't like this they have simple recourse. Vote the government out in the next election and vote one in that will listen to their wishes. Government around the world, especially the UK, have forgotten that they are supposed to serve the people, not their own interests. The people need to take an interest and vote. If you don't vote, you don't have a right to complain later.
Oh boo fucking hooey hoo! Get the fuck over yourself already!
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
I don't buy this number of people thing as a valid excuse. You're not going to get anywhere anytime if you allow it to be used as a valid excuse...
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
4 years is very impressive.
Personally, I know it won't work for me because I know at least a couple of friends are suckers for those 'join my group of friends' sites and love entering my email address. Luckilly I've been able to wean these silly friends of my main account and on to a junk account used by them and Nigerian generals.
-- Using the preview button since 2005
The TeleCrapper 2000
do yourself the favour and listen to the transcripts.
almost makes me *want* to take my name of the do-not-call list!
--- blackironprison, where ignorance is bliss....
I one time managed to so distract a telemarketer from a local business that I got her to give me her phone number and even got her to agree to go on a date with me. Needless to say, I never called her back...
/me hunts RealisticCanadian down with a Cluebat With Nails In
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
As incompetent as the US government can be, I am still surprised they haven't dealt with this. Telemarketers have greatly weakened part of our national infrastructure. How many of us ignore the phone or dread answering it because it will be some rude foreigner calling on behalf of some scumbag international Corp with holdings in the US that outsourced their customer-harrassment program?
If an American company is paying foreigners to use illegal autodialers (illegal in my state anyway) to tie up the phone lines of American citizens I'd think of it more as teletreasoning than telemarketing.
It's good for cell phone companies though. I know a lot of people that dropped their land line for a cell phone primarily because of this.
But yeah, it would be fun to engage in a telephone-terror campaign against this twat. Though I suspect that he/she/it would actually enjoy it... telephone harassment is a good thing after all!
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
Now, now don't be so harsh. Some people were simply too busy fucking their sisters to spend time learning such things as "vocabulary skills" or "math skills."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
My 4-year-old just LOVES to talk on the phone. "Ya wanna speak to the lady of the house? SURE! I'll get her for ya!" Usually the poor schmucks hang up after about 5 minutes.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Using this http://www.pagerealm.com/tc2k/ And you get some hilarious recordings to boot!
Seems like all the telmarketing calls I get nowdays are from india and mexico.
Most of the time I just yank their chain...
- most telemarketers make up the names they give you. Just make up a name for them and start calling them that...
- try to detect their accent and start speaking to them in their native language, really confuses them...
Example...
Tm: Hello, may I speak to Mr. Wong?
Me: Can I ask who is speaking?
Tm: Yes this is John [heavy indian accent], is this Mr. Wong?
Me: This is Mrs. Kong [still in male voice], can I help you [in fake female voice]?
Tm: Hello, Mrs. Kong, I represent [random cable company] and we are offering a special installation deal in your area.
Me: Thanks Joseph, Aapka kya naam hai?
Tm: uhhh???? [hangup]
The problem faced by Canada and/or the USA is indicative of a more general (and therefore more difficult to solve) problem.
When a telemarketer calls you from your own country, both parties are governed by the same laws, however, many of those laws are ineffective when the caller and recipient are in different countries.
With cheap telecommunications international telemarketing is becoming more common, and consumer protection is beginning to suffer.
Take, for example, the recent spate of calls that have originated in Florida, and targetted North-West Europe. Each of these European countries has a national do-not-call list, yet international telemarketers are ignoring these lists, believing themselves to be untouchable.
It's become so bad that "the Consumer Ombudsmen from the Nordic Countries of Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland and Iceland have contacted the US Federal Trade Commission and cited concerns over some international business practices" [1][2]
The letter itself cites concerns over both telemarketing and general internet marketing, and illustrates that once national boundaries are crossed, the temptation to increase sales (possibly by misrpresenting the goods that are being sold) may be more than some telemarketers (or telemarketing company managers) can bear.
What is needed is a global agreement on Do-Not-Call lists. Without such an agreement, national lists will be entirely irrelevant as each company conscientiously respects it's own citizens whilst mercilessly telespamming the rest of the world.
boakes.org
there are more vendors, not gonna pimp just this one, but i have a public phone number from them for $15/year. it's absurdly cheap. i give out this phone number for EVERYTHING. they call, they get voicemail, 1 to leave a message defeats most voicemail spammers too. you can check over email.
not anytime soon...
If your goal was to provide ironic support to the parent, you've succeeded. What occurred in NO is from start to finish due to government incompetence on all levels - but weighted more towards the City and State. (How much did the stadium cost?) Predictably, the government-will fix-it solution failed miserably.
They failed to mitigate the risk to begin with and failed to effectively follow-up after the storm. The only outfits that performed rationally were various private companies that had plans and executed them. Like HCA or a few communications companies. HCA staged supplies, had a fleet of helos on order and removed their clients promptly from the hospital they operate - providing assistance to a couple nearby public hospitals - whose management had not planned effectively. While the city and state officials were standing around with their collective, uhm, appendages, in their hands.
Anyway, if an inspector tells you your house has termites, do you a) call an exterminator and fix the damaged wood or b) buy a new giant HDTV and get a Hummer (the vehicle - minds outa da gutter!) then call Dad and ask for help 'cause you're out of money? Guess which route NO and Louisiana took?
Now before you jump down my throat, let me explain a few things to you. Apparently telemarketing in the US is quite different from telemarketing in Finland (which is where I live). I am not calling up completely random people and offering them things they don't need because I find this a waste of their time (why buy things you don't need) and my time, because with such methods you are unlikely to generate much sales and therefore income.
What I (and my fellow co-worker telemarkers) do is call up long-time customers of 2 of the biggest GSM providers in Finland. These people are paying ridiculous prices for their GSM phone use because they don't know any better or because they are too used to their current GSM provider. What we offer them is GSM service quality that equals that of the big and expensive provider companies, for half the price or even less. Basically we offer people a chance to reduce their mobile phone bills. Last week I sold a GSM contract to this young chick (23 years old): she was getting 100-110 euro/month mobile phone bills from her current GSM provider. Now that she took up my offer, her phone bills will be about 36 euro/month.
The only thing she will have to do is change the SIM card our GSM provider will send her. Her phone number stays the same. No "opening" or "transition" fees of any kind. Zero. Nada. This young lady will now be able to spend 70 euro/month on things more exciting than mobile phone bills.
Can you honestly call this kind of marketing calls a bad thing?
Have you not learned anything, england was attacked... do they have an elitist attitude? NO. No one is safe anymore, and an FYI instead of attacking each other as land joined neighbors the Us and Canada should be doing everything in their power to work together, if either of us ever gets nuked, how habitable do you think the other country is going to be?
My sister actually stumbled on a really neat way to avoid spam - her domain name INCLUDES the word spam, and since that obviously has to be a bogus address, she gets no spam! Or, I'm guessing, other bots may remove the word spam from her domain name, well, without it, it's not her domain name! I thought it was pretty cool...
OT - my imaged word was condom - what's up with that? Safe computing?
Oukay, eh, sue I left America after the 2004 elecshune, and I've been having a goud tiyme up here in the frozen northe attempting to ootlast Boush. I've seen a lot of moose and goose and cariboos. I've alsue had my share of brewws. Liefe is goud.
:(
But WTF, eh? I can't beleefe they'd due this tue me. I've deciyded I'm moufing back to America.
Oh goodness... do you really want to encourage the ones who target the machine? When I lived in California, I came to dread coming home and checking the answering machine. There's always be series of "Sean, this is Mark of A1 Banking. I hate to say it, but we've run into a problem with your account. Call me immediately at 1-555-555-5555 so we can fix this" with inevitably routed to a credit card pitch. *sigh* One would think false advertising would apply somewhere in there. If you picked up the phone while the message was being logged, they immediately hung up.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Hi, Bigot. Maybe you should be a bit less concerned with American elitism and a bit more concerned with your own.
"A minority of Americans does/thinks/says xxxxxxx. I hate all Americans."
Unfortunately, there are ignorant assholes like you everywhere. You make up a very vocal minority.
Or this one, which describes how to get the information you would need to take them to court (and earn a little cash) if they didn't put you on their do-not-call list.
The entire article is about the fact that Canada doesn't have a "do-not-call" list, and that you can't take telemarketers to court.
Do try to to keep up; pretend that there will be a quiz on the topic if it will help keep you focused.
--
AC
It's more fun than a barrel of telemarketers. Just lie to them. "My air travel habits, well lets see we take the company jet to Japan twice a month but we don't really travel on commercial flights." Which hotel do we use? Well our company does major business in Japan so we often stay with the Prime Minister. Lovely home, so many servants." Make stuff up, tell'em you've got 15 kids all under the age of 2. String 'em along until they drown in BS. If everyone did this their data would be worthless. "Boss our poll data shows everyone in Canada makes 10 million a year and rides Radio Flyer wagons pulled by hamsters to work."
If someone kicks in my front door, I can shoot them. I can't shoot the telescammers through the phone. :(
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
If you put your name on a 'do not call' list then you are actually doing a favour to telemarketers - im sure they don't want to waste their time calling people who arn't interested, so why are telemarketing companies even thinking about calling people who put themselves on these lists?
If you call me I will tell you that I don't have a kitchen or any windows and I don't use phones so I don't need a better calling plan, sometimes I will tell you to hang on a minute while I get someone who's interested and then I'll leave the phone off the hook, Im doing the person on the phone a favour because they get a free break from calling people while their call-centre foots the bill.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
A lot of people are making a difference by pushing for legislation to prevent tele-terror from sellers, scammers, politicians, and other similar scum. It's what the people want.
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
I work in a telemarketing firm and I must warn you that most of the information on that page is either out of date or just plain wrong. While some of their advice is a good starting point - I'd suggest doing a little of your own homework. For instance, the fines have gone up into the several thousands of dollars (with much of the money going to regulators, not customers). At the same time, you have to prove that the company called you on purpose. I've, personally, avoided two lawsuits because it wasn't any persons fault (once it was that the dialing server that crashed after their infomation was removed - but it wasn't removed on the backups!)
And as someone in telemarketing, I've got to ask: We are all people trying to get by in the world. The people I work with are so desperate that I'm glad a few of them are working and not out robbing people. Besides them, a lot of them are kids in highschool. Why make a teenager cry? Can't you be just as polite as I'm trying to be and end the call instead of acting like a baby when you might get a call? Screaming at the top of your lungs doesn't do anything but keep us from actually making sure we don't call you again - because we have no desire to!
The national DNC is the best thing to happen to telemarketing. It's removed the spoilers.
Get your Unix fortune now!
I'n N O T Canadian!!!!
Spam Transmitted Viruses
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
If you don't like following the scripts... try to ad lib. The best of the best is The Spam Avenger. He's kept people on the phone for a really long time.
Have a listen to the call to the online gambling help line.
Hilarious.
The way I think it works out now is that if you sign on to the Canadian Do-Not-Call list you will only receive calls from businesses, political parties, polling companies, and charities.
It's still a useful law...
1) Sign up for do not list
2) Have mom and dad call
3) Sue parents for damages
4) No estate taxes!
(OK, I'm assuming that awards from suits in Canada aren't taxed, and that being someone's parent doesn't establish a 'prior business relationship').
What is it, hmq7z4ty@p1dli.ru? Spammers send to random combinations of words and names nowadays...still, your point is valid.
:). As you mentioned, there is still the random name problem, but it is very easy for the server detect and black-list these types of spams, so only a few a year get through.
:)
I have two email addresses, one public and one private, which are 10 and 7 years old respectively.
The public one I give out to any old site, and is at least 99% spam, but is still managable with spam filters. Spam Assassin bit-buckets the definate offenders on the server, and then I have a trainable filter on my client to get the rest.
I almost never get spam on the private one. The fact that I only give it out to people I trust keeps it off the spam lists (and praying that it never gets harvested by an outlook virus
I have several friends who use the method you described and like it alot. If I was starting from scratch I would definately go that route. But at this point way too many legitamate people (more that I have kept track of) have my public email for me to change it. And way too many sketchy people also have it, so keeping it off of spam lists is pretty much futile
Thanks Mods - say that about any other country, and you get modded down. If that's not flamebait, it doesn't exist.
Yes, and no one forced you to work at your chosen profession. You made the choice, you live with the consequences.
You are always free to pick another line of work (e.g., spraying oven cleaner into rabbits' eyes, feeding cheap animal remains to cows, or offering poor street urchins a few bucks to work in a chemical factory).
Well, you certainly spell like an American. OK, see ya!
Laast time I checked, it was illegal in the US for telemarketers to call cell phones.
It was illegal for a telemarketer to contact you via any method that forced you to pay (e.g. your cellphone). They maintained lists of cellphone exchanges and avoided them.
HOWEVER... now we have phone number portability. In addition to taking your cellphone number to a new mobile carrier, you can also take your cellphone number to a land line or vice versa.
Telemarketers argued that it's no longer possible to know if the number they are calling is a mobile phone. Now you have to register your mobile number with the do-not-call list or prepare to be inundated with marketed on your cellphone while you pay for the minutes.
That won't stop the spam, although the keyword suggestion below will theoretically weed out entries pretty quickly for deletion. Hmmm... and I could have all of the fun of listening to people saying banana, everything from the exasperated to the deadly serious who are convinced I have a program to delete messages where banana isn't said at the beginning.
Och... my poor grandmother though, she'd go into conniptions, figuring she'd said "banana" incorrectly, so I'd get a series of messages along the lines of "Banana. I don't know if you got my last message, Sean, because I think my voice quavered at the end. Anyway, what I wanted to tell you..."
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
ah, hypocrisy, thy name is America.
I saw the puff pieces for the NOLA Elites in their fancy houses and how they had suffered least, and were saying what hardships they might have to stay at their summer homes in Colorado for a while.
Investigate Maslow's Heirarchy before you go ascribing people's behavior in extremis - in the Army, when I had to command people, it was a very useful tool in understanding how people really behave, not some artificial construct such as you describe.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Each survey took about 20 minutes to complete. They were invasive and annoying and the people you called despised you. The office had a central control tower in the middle of the floor with 'listeners' who could tap into your line to make sure you weren't wasting company dollars by skimping on questions. (Callers were paid by the number of completed surveys at the end of a shift.)
The whole set-up was designed to deep-fry human brains from both ends. I didn't last very long. But you know what drove me nuts and bananas the most?
It was some of the other callers.
We had pink and blue sheets of questions. We needed to survey males and females, blue for male, pink for female. The very opening sentences were not scripted because they figured that we could work out on our own how to ask for the lady or the man of the house. Apparently this was a false assumption in this one guy's case. He sat down the aisle from me and would dial a number and say, "Hello. I need to speak to a female."
That made me cringe time and again, particularly when his forehead crinkled with confusion as he dealt with the social fallout of that weird intro and got impatient with the people on the other end.
Another guy sitting nearby was once presumably barked at by the person he had called and hung up on. So he re-dialed the number and shouted back at the person on the other end and then slammed his own reciever down. Then he spun around in his chair and raised his hands in victory. "REVENGE!" he cried.
After about an hour of this bullshit on my second day, (the first day was just a training seminar), I hung up my phone and walked up to the floor manager and told him that I just couldn't do this and that I was leaving. Sorry.
The weird thing was that he and I and one of the ladies from the control tower all sat down in the middle of the aisle on that thin office carpet and talked about how dumb this job was and what we really wanted from life.
Then I wished them well and left the building.
The end.
-FL
I know it's rather bad of me, but I'm gratified that at least there's one thing, one small thing that my country (the U.S.) is doing slightly better than some other country. It won't last, I'm sure.
Furry cows moo and decompress.
One thing that really, really ticks me off is jackasses that try to justify violation of property rights with the language of libertarian/free-market ideas. Which is exactly what you're doing.
It's HER phone, dude. If she doesn't want you calling her, then don't call her. Respect her property.
Call her once, innocently, ok. She makes it clear she doesn't appreciate it, you better not do it again. If she puts her number on a do-not-call list, and I don't care if the federal government is administering it or not (OK, I do care, I'd rather someone more trustworthy do the job, but regardless) that's giving you notice she doesn't want to be called, so don't call her! If you were a door-to-door salesman-leafletter-fundraiser or whatever, and she had a sign up in her front yard saying 'no solicitations' would you open the gate and go on up and bang on the door anyway?
Why is this so difficult for people to understand?
I used to work in telemarketing on and off, years ago, before the do-not-call lists and before the laws came around. I know I worked for several places that were respectable, legitimate businesses, and I know that when we called someone that was offended by the call at those places we immediately apologised and hung up, and put the number in our OWN do not call list, without even being asked. Because we didn't want to waste our time or theirs by calling them again and annoying them. When the do-not-call lists started these companies didn't mind a bit, it only helps.
It's only fly-by-nights and rip-offs, the very same companies that have convinced so many people that once didn't mind telemarketing calls to quit taking them, that now feel like somehow their 'interests' need to be balanced against the interests of the person who actually owns the phone. THESE are the only people I've heard suggest, as you just did, that people that don't want their phone calls should 'get a second line.'
There is no balancing to be done - the person who owns the phone decides and that's the end of it.
To talk about 'free speech' in this context is just a slap in the face to anyone that cares about free speech. You have the right to speak, sure. You don't have the right to use my equipment to transmit it, however, and that's the issue here. It's her phone, and she has no more obligation to invite you to call her than she has an obligation to invite a door-to-door salesman in for tea and cookies.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
No, business numbers are not allowed. Go to registration site and read the information.
Anonymous Cowards suck.
I have friends like that too. Basically, I give everyone new a temp address. When I start getting my inbox filled with crappy jokes or offers to sign up for some crap, the address is deleted and they never get my real one.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
The Canadian Marketing Association has a Do Not Contact service for both mail and telemarketing. I signed up when I moved, and I never get junk mail, and rarely get calls from telemarketers.
I get occasional telemarketing calls from Bell Canada and Rogers Cable but I'm an existing client. Rogers hires the worst, most aggressive call centers to peddle their internet service. The last guy to call me just needed me to say my name to sign up. After refusing the service a few times, he tried to get me signed up by saying my name and asking me if that was my name.
Where do you get off assuming I would not respect her wishes if she told me not to contact her?
One: her telephone number is common knowledge. If it were unlisted (which I believe should be mandated as free to those who wish it), I would not have the number.
Two: "You don't have the right to use my equipment to transmit it, however, and that's the issue here."
The phone lines outside her house are not her property. If she allows her receiver to receive my call, that is her choice. She allowed the call to get to her phone. There is no violation of property rights. By that logic, telephone and radio advertising violates property rights -- for that matter, so does television programming.
Three: ""It's her phone, and she has no more obligation to invite you to call her"
Why should government have a role in limiting speech? I agree, if she asks me not to, I shouldn't -- and I wouldn't (contrary to your assumption). But the government should not have a role in regulating this for reasonable political activity.
I support legal recourse for not abiding by an individuals choice to not be contacted again.
I do not support blanket DNC because it assigns the responsibility of denying calls to the government. Please do not make assumptions about what I do, or do not do, or about what I believe. My previous comments in this thread have been contextural, and you obviously have no idea what I wrote in even my first comment.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
"Fuck of moron" is also effective ;)
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Indeed, it was government that prevented private charities such as the Red Cross from assisting those who were imprisoned in the Superdome.
Since when does exposing someone's identity ever protect phone number owner from telemarketer anyway? This is just like the 'unsubscribe' features in mailbox, ie. total BS. Even without VOIP or globalization, a spammer can just fake its own caller ID[1], effectively avoiding legal consequences for calling numbers in do-not-call list. The do-not-call list is just a telemarketer's tactic to distract consumer groups! To truly be effective, a government should only use DO-CALL-LIST that only lists numbers for which the owners want to be contacted by telemarketers, and only the ones permitted by the owner of the phone line can call to.
o fing&btnG=Google+Search&meta= [google.ca]
[1] http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=caller+id+spo
That's fine, it's not the poor schmuck stuck in a dead-end job dialing the phone all day we want to hurt. It's the bastards who hire them to annoy and harrass us who we want to screw over. Your sister got credited for keeping a customer on the phone for 20 minutes? Great, even more reason to do this!
This sounds awfully like other things I wrote/called in protest about: CD Levys, Satellite Radio (I favored "importing" only the American product) and the telemarketing list.
If you have time to play by the rules of the "Public Hearings" which means taking time off work to sit through 8 hour meetings (this, alone, favors the format to paid industry lobbyists) then it might work well. Since this doesn't answer to 99% of the population, our protests are out.
I only receive one or two telemarketing/survey calls a month. The only company I cannot get rid of is the lawn care one.... any ideas? Generally, I use the silliest, lamest excuse not to buy their product that I can think of - or - outright lie.
For example:
Subscribe to a Canadian Newspaper - No I'm with the tree huggers association. I'm illiterate. I'm American and don't care for Canadian news.
Alarm companies? I tell them I live in a nuclear silo that was abandoned by the Canadian military and since transformed into a loft. That company, before, used to call 2 or 3 times a month. After that story, they have never called since -- its been over 2 years now.
Calling-list registry? No thanks. My own form of democracy works quite well. That is until they legislate against lying on the phone.
You're obviously practicing to be an American.
And you obviously need more practice at being a Canadian. I work with a lot of Canadians, and not one of them would make a crack like that. Mainly because they don't appreciate bigoted remarks any more than I do.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Hi Bubba - can you say "non sequitur"?
It's just that stuff like this makes me laugh
Hey, we have something in common! OMG!!
OK, you invited this one...
ah, Will, thy name is troll...
I saw the puff pieces for the NOLA Elites ...
Which has nothing to do with my arguement. 'Look at the pretty kitty...'
Investigate Maslow's Heirarchy before you go ascribing people's behavior in extremis - in the Army, when I had to command people, it was a very useful tool in understanding how people really behave, not some artificial construct such as you describe.
Yes, let's. I'm curious to what 'artificial contruct' you refer, but you seem to like offering tangential, vague comments as a connotation of superiourity. Ref your "when are you moving to NO..." post - wholly non sequitor to the parent and in fact counter to your obvious retorical intent. Were you talking about the termites example? That's the only 'construct' I created, I think. I wasn't discussion folks behaviour as they were at risk of life. I was discussing behaviour of government folks far removed from any risk - behaviour well in advance of any hurricane (uhm, years?) As far as Maslow Heirarchy of needs(1) goes, let's see, at the bottom are basic physical needs - food, water, air, etc. I can understand looting food from this context, but that's not what we were discussing.
Next it's Safety - gee, I think secure levies kinda falls under this heading, don't you? I suppose the Superdome was keeping the Saints safe from the elements but I think that is rather a stretch. I guess they skipped Security and Emotional connection and went straight to Esteem. They drowned but the City's collective self-esteem was wonderful? So, what exactly was your point besides taking the opportunity to snipe at the US, tell us you commanded folks in the Army and drop names?
(1) http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/maslow.html
The difference is, television and radio are pull forms of communication. You select the channel to process and route that information through your hardware. An advertiser cannot remotely turn on your TV and change its channel. If they could, that would be a violation of your property rights.
It's the same with spyware.
Telephones are push media. Someone remotely controls the operation of your device. Now, you say 'this person can choose to not answer' but I say that still doesn't prevent their hardware from being used in a way that may be against their wishes. A DNC list is essentially a soft (legal, not technological) way of saying 'only these people are permitted to access my hardware'. It's a legal firewall, and the only reason it _has_ to be regulated by the government is that its a legal measure rather than a technological one.
I'd like it better if, for instance, all businesses, charities, etc were required by law to
only use numbers visible to caller ID. I think that would probably solve a lot of this automatically especially if that information were accompanied by a few bits describing what type of business/organization/etc it is. Then you could say 'I'm not taking calls from charities, block everything with the charity bit set'. Of course, the phone equipment isn't all at that level yet. For people who still have primitive analog devices not configurable to that level, the only way for such screening to exist is at the legal level.
The thing is, this isn't a matter of the government saying 'organizations X,Y,Z cannot call anyone, organizations U and V can call everyone' (though I think the exemptions given to charitable organizations and political organizations are problematic in that sense, it should be broad spectrum or not at all). This is a matter of a private citizen registering their desire not to be contacted - if they don't take this action, then there is nothing preventing them from being contacted - no suppression of speech.
If however they say 'I do not wish to be contacted by groups in these categories' then doing so IS a violation of their rights, perhaps of a lesser magnitude than but of the same form as trespassing on their property when they have adequate signage up. If you'd respect a no-trespassing sign, why not respect that they've registered in a central location their desire not to be contacted?
In this, the government only acts as the location of the repository, giving you a nice and easy way of checking to see who will 'shoot' you when you step on their property and who will not. They are not adding people to the list by default, or against their wishes. There is still _no penalty assesed_ unless the person being called _against their will_ actually comes foward with the event.
If you trespass on someone's property you shouldn't be surprised if they take legal action against you, even if 'its the first time and I'm just establishing communication'.
Ah, Tim Horton's: The Canadian equivalent of the much-hated Wal-Mart or Starbucks.
:)
Only ours was founded by a guy who played for the Leafs, so somehow it's not evil
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
If phone caller ID is as freely editable as email headers (for the same legitimate reason, i.e., making the caleer ID refer to a person and not a machine), then we need something like SPF for filtering those calls we do not want to receive.
Once a telemarketer called exactly at the time I was reading my kids their bedtime story. So I I let her join in. She listened for about 2 or 3 minutes before realizing I was not talking to her about whatever she was trying to sell.
Another thing I do with those recorded calls if I don't need the phone (I don't. work communication is done by email) is that I put it on the speaker and whenever they finish and say something like "dial 1 for a representative, dial 2 to replay" I dial 2. That way I waste their time, and they cannot call someone else on that line. Then when I get tired of the game I might dial 1 to make the human work a little bit (I mean, if the human works the human gets paid?). If there's a 1-800 number I write it down and then if I have time I call it several times and hang up after it is answered (no need to talk. It's just to waste their resources a bit).
If more people would think about wasting the telemarketers resources it would make this business less profitable.
But what I do most of the time is just hang up immediately (or let the call die when the telemarketer realizes there's no one to talk to on my side). The downside is that once I immediately disconnected and then I realized that it was my ISP that was calling me...
Before I started using spamgourmet.com, my spam address included the word 'spam'. Indeed, that works very well. I always figured that spammers were cutting the 'spam' out of the address, and sending to the result, which is either some poor sap or an invalid address.
Procrastination -- because good things come to those who wait.
Well, when I signed up, it didn't say anything about disallowing business numbers from being placed on the list, just that they can't protect business numbers. Either way, the DNClist police haven't come knocking on my office door yet...
Procrastination -- because good things come to those who wait.
The problem however that I run a very small business. You have to advertise your presence and a mobile number (as well as a mail address like SuperDuperConsult@hotmail.com, or an URL, like http: //www.VeryCheapHosting.com/~SuperDuperConsult/4711 .html) leaves an impression of being just a slight bit dodgy.
The problem was resolved by screening out anonymous calls at the switch. For some reason those creeps don't like to identify themselves.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
I am still very uncomfortable with government managing any aspect of communication in this manner. I think it is imperative that government is not given any tools by which they can hinder communication.
I understand the difference between push and pull technologies, but I don't think that makes a difference here. I don't think you can apply trespassing theory here in that way, since the recipient of the call could choose not to open the gate.
The call is still routed by a vendor, who could choose to implement blocking of these types of calls if they so chose. It wouldn't be perfect, but I'm sure a government system would not be administered perfectly either.
I would like to see the following happen, in which case I think we'd see a lot of these calls disappear:
No spoofing of caller ID
Continued enforcement of positive denial (you tell a group not to, they can't call you)
Free unlisted telephone numbers
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
If you actually read the article, it appears that they've added the same exceptions as in the U.S.. And complaining about "prior business relationships" is a bit lame. What, I send someone a request for info, but they aren't allowed to call me back because I'm on do-not-call? The summary here on slashdot, and the initial sentences of the article, make it sound like the bill was gutted. What am I missing?
Well, the thing that bugs me about vendors doing it is, if the government does it all it does is change the legality, not the possibility. So no matter what the govt wants to do to abuse its list, it still doesn't get to prevent the actual call from being made.
On the other hand, letting a vendor handle blocking means they can make choices that are totally invisible to the client. This happens with ISPs implementing spam filters by default - users don't necessarily know if some essential email isn't getting through because its running up against the filter, and if they don't know that the filter is in place they don't even have the knowledge to check.
Of course, if it ever gets to the point where the government tells vendors to block certain calls under legal threats, thats the time to get antsy.
At present, it would be a lot easier to subvert any abusive attempt at government censorship through this sort of list than any abusive attempt at censorship by a private company encouraged to selectively block calls. Any sufficiently pervasive organized group can be indistinguishable from government.
Not to say that phone companies should be forbidden from offering such a service, but I'd be upset about them doing such things _by default_ and without informing the customer - as some ISPs have done. That seems like a breach of contract to me, in that they're not providing the full service that you signed up for.
I agree with your concerns about a private filtering service, perhaps implemented by a telco.
But what about a filter box you could attach to your receiver? Enough of these installed, with some kind of central database, could use alogorithms to determine the likelihood of a certain call being spam. Sure, you run the risk of false positives, etc, but it's in your control, and you could choose the best solution, and the desired risk threshold.
Hmm, I've got to check patent filings on this.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Heh, I am one of 2 Canadians working in a company with over 20 Americans, and we throw it back and forth all the time. It's called good natured ribbing. Most Americans I know are a lot more thick skinned than you, obviously.
:-)
I get it every day about Canada's military, and our socialist policies, yadda, yadda, yadda, and I give it back to them about losing the war of 1812, not being able to find the US on a world map, etc. Neither side is 100% grounded in fact, but it's funny none the less.
I wholeheartedly apologize that you did not find my post amusing. If you'd like to sue me for it, I'd consider that an example of the American way.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Having an unlisted phone number (free or otherwise) doesn't make any difference, since telemarketers generally use wardialers, not phonebooks.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Make it a misdemeanor to call unlisted numbers.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Sure. Then every time someone wants to get someone else in trouble, they just claim the other person didn't have permission to call their unlisted number, and file charges against 'em. Wrong numbers happen, should they be penalized too? There are a lot of problems with penalizing based on the *type* of phone listing.
It's exactly like saying "It's okay to trespass on my property if my house number is plain for all to see, but if my house number is hidden, then trespassing on my property will be penalized."
If anything has to be penalized, it ought to be the other way around.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
No, because the calling party (if smart) would have documentation of the permission. Furthermore, the intent of the call is important. If you are a telephone solicitor, the law would apply.
"It's exactly like saying "It's okay to trespass on my property if my house number is plain for all to see, but if my house number is hidden, then trespassing on my property will be penalized."
A more valid comparison would be: If your property is adjacent to public property, and if there is no way of knowing that your property is actually your property, and not public property, am I committing criminal trespass by walking on your property?
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I think all that would happen is that telephone solicitors would no longer operate out of local boilerrooms, but rather would outsource to independent contractors, preferably in 3rd world countries (actually, I've read that this has already happened). How are you going to get a misdemeanor conviction of someone wardialing from an outsourcing center in Singapore? especially if convenient layers of corporate misdirection lie between them and the real culprit, who might well be in Belize.
As to being "adjacent to public property", your example is more like leaving the sidewalk (reasonably assumed to be public) to tramp across the front lawn (reasonably assumed to be private property). Just because it's "adjacent" and lacks a "trespassers will be shot" sign doesn't mean you can't figure out where the boundary lies.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
"How are you going to get a misdemeanor conviction of someone wardialing from an outsourcing center in Singapore?
Well, how are you going to keep them from wardialing people on the DNC list? This circumvents both prevention methods, unfortunately.
Just because it's "adjacent" and lacks a "trespassers will be shot" sign doesn't mean you can't figure out where the boundary lies."
Except, of course, that sometimes you can't tell. Ever been to a nature preserve / arboretum / public park that is not fenced off from adjacent undeveloped (but private) property? Often there is no way to tell where one ends and the other begins. Sometimes you don't even know there is any private property there.
If the number cannot be found on the list of numbers provided by the local telco (by default, unlisted numbers will not be there)then it can't be called. So the analogy is, if there is no sign saying "here I am, and here's my contact information" then their privacy needs to be protected.
I'm curious as to whether you feel this is similar to open Wi-Fi networks... once I'm authenticated and allowed by the server to access the system, am I trespassing?
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I wouldn't settle there.. mostly since I think it's a stupid idea to build a city that is mostly below sea-level in hurricane country.