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Blu-Ray Attacks Microsoft, Microsoft Bites Back
QT writes "Ars Technica has been following this week's next-gen DVD dramas closely. First, there's extensive coverage of the
reasons why Microsoft backed HD-DVD, which was primarily inspired by mandatory support for
copying discs to computers. The BDA, however, countered with an attack on Microsoft's reasons, and
Microsoft returned fire. Richard E. Doherty, Microsoft's head of the media entertainment technology convergence group, said that 50GB Blu-ray disc are in fact many years away. Is
MS playing games, or is Sony misrepresenting just how far along BD-ROM really is?" From the article: "HD DVD is proven to deliver 30GB capacity today, with the potential to deliver even greater capacity. The 50GB claim for BD-ROM discs is unproven and will not be available for many years to come, based on discussions with major Japanese and US replicators. Replicators not only do not have test lines running, they cannot even pre-order the equipment to begin evaluating this disc. They cannot judge the cost of these discs, or even whether they can be manufactured at all. Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and it's well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs."
We previously discussed this topic when the announcement came out.
Is this what I think it is? Sweet deal...can't wait!
"My disk is bigger"
"no mine is"
"No MY disk is bigger"
"Your disk doesnt exist"
"No yours doesnt"
"Yes it does"
since when is this a cross between kids arguing and politics?
I started out thinking Blu Ray would be the way to go but after reading some of the articles on Ars about it recently, I'm thinking HD DVD would be better. If the movie industry started making all new DVD releases as hybrid discs, there could be a very easy transition, and it could happen soon, from the sounds of things. Of course, things might not be as easy as they sound. Honestly, I don't care about the extra space. I use an external HD for backups, not my DVD burner. And I don't care how many discs my movies/tv shows come on. So I have to change it once an hour, I need to get up once in a while anyway.
Feel free to mod me "-1 - Angry Jerk".
Slashdot EeziPost (TM) MK I
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[ ] Still no cure for cancer
It's the porn industry that's going to decide, remember? Who cares what the industry people think...
/. so I thought I'd share my own.
Sorry, but I just wanted to pre-empt those that are inevitably going to claim that. At any rate, if the article (re: Microsoft) is true, then Blu-Ray probably won't succeed because HD-DVD is already here. I'm still pulling for Blu-Ray, for a variety of reasons, but realistically I realize that most consumers are going to see "HD-DVD" and think "Ooooh... a DVD that will play HD" (fallacy notwithstanding) whereas people will see Blu-Ray and think "What the... what's this crap?"
Alas, at this point it's still all speculation. Perfect for
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
that a bird in the hand (ie. the standard that's available right now) is worth far more than two in the bush (ie the one that's only promised and is at least two years off)... I mean, which manufacturer is going to hold off on the promise of 50GB, when he can have 30GB right now??? only an idiot who's going to miss the boat and look very, very stupid.
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Looks like a set of very down-to-Earth, well argumented reasons. Maybe, for once, this will be a decision that is not grounded in anti-competitive behavior?
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
"or is Sony misrepresenting just how far along BD-ROM really is?"
Blu-ray is NOT Sony. Sony is just one of them.
Witch will you buy? If you buy the wrong one you will have a bunch of disks that are not the "Standard" fromat. I am kinda pissed that I may have to go replace all my current DVD's if I want the HD version. So make your choice VHS or BetaMax.
I'm not one to believe Microsoft too readily, but let's face it: MS follows the cash, and if MS thinks that there's more money to be made with HD DVD, maybe they are on to something? It's not like VC-1 isn't in both formats, so what is to gain by not backing Blu-ray?
And, has anyone noticed all of this talk about the PS3 slipping to late fall 2006 for a launch?
"HD DVD is proven to deliver 30GB capacity today, with the potential to deliver even greater capacity."
Why, it's another 'de novo innovation!'
It is like old times. The technology with the best marketing team gets accepted as a standard. To heck with technological superiority and other crap. This is how windows became the defacto in the operating system arena. Even though there were better alternatives like OS/2 and MAC.
Linux Help
for all things on Linux
If you allready have HDTV you need HD-DVD!! This is very easy for average consumers..
I have to say, however much I may not like Microsoft's shenanigans, that given the history of Sony's formats, I would, without even needing to know the details, choose whatever solution other than theirs.
>The only good thing to come out of Sony today are 20,000 dollar CRT tubes.
The only good thing to come out of Microsoft... maybe this?
VHS came out after Beta, BUT, VHS had a larger capacity than Beta. I think we all know how THAT turned out.
What will push Blu-ray? Playstation 3. Microsoft's support of the other team should come as no surprise, but in the end I expect they will support it.
I've built up so much character I have an alter-ego
Blu-Ray isn't Sony, but you're kidding yourself if you think that Sony isn't the dominant player in the format. Blu-Ray would never exist without Sony's involvement, and they're basically the only company championing the format.
is how much DRM each technology uses.
Blu-ray lost my vote when they decided to build in functionality to allow the movie industry to actually disable your player if they chose. To restore your disabled player you would have to send it in for 'repair'.
The articles:
Inside Microsoft's decision to back HD DVD
By Ken "Caesar" Fisher
Wednesday, September 28, 2005
Few were surprised when Microsoft (along with Intel) announced that they would back HD DVD over Blu-ray. While Microsoft's stance on the next-generation of optical storage media was officially neutral, their close working relationship with Toshiba led us to suspect that HD DVD would get the nod. The interesting question is, why?
It has been said that Microsoft simply wouldn't back something put out by Sony, but that argument doesn't have traction. First, Microsoft's VC-1 video codec is supported by both Blu-ray and HD DVD; there's no strategic edge there to speak of. Additionally, over-emphasizing the competition between the PlayStation and the Xbox ignores the fact that Sony and Microsoft have a substantial working relationship. Witness Sony's line of Vaio computers, as well as Sony's Microsoft-DRM-backed music store.
The decision to back HD DVD stems not from a dislike of Sony, but from the assessment of the maturity and consumer-friendliness of HD DVD. No, seriously.
Managed Copy: what is it, and what it isn't
First, a little Realpolitik. We all know about CSS, the encryption scheme used to "protect" DVDs from unauthorized copying. It was cracked (famously), and both Blu-ray and HD DVD are designed to be much, much harder to circumvent. While calling anything crack-proof is pretty foolish, phenomena such as the iTunes Music Store demonstrate quite clearly that many people are comfortable with DRM if it allows for some flexibility. That is, DRM isn't going anywhere, and even the most pointy-haired geek should see that.
Making copies of a DVD is technically illegal in the United States, because circumventing access controls is forbidden by the US Code, except in rare instances. The problem with this, of course, is that it violates our Fair Use rights as citizens, and it punishes those of us who abide by the rules, while the real pirates (organized crime) go on largely unabated.
Microsoft, among others, wants to see this changed.
Currently, HD DVD is the only next-gen format to provide for the ability to legally make copies of optical content. Dubbed "Managed Copy," HD DVD implements part of the AACS control mechanism to allow for things such as putting digital copies of a disc on a hard drive, transferring a movie (legally) to a portable player, or streaming content on a home network. Furthermore, HD DVD makes Managed Copy mandatory: all content provided on HD DVD must give users the option of making at least one copy. Jordi Ribas, director of technical strategy for the Windows Digital Media Division, told me that while the feature is mandatory, the studios will have the option of charging for it. Ribas hopes that studios will allow at least a single copy "for free," but it may be market conditions that ultimately determine the cost of such features. The take-away, at least, is that studios have to offer something, and AACS is structured in such a way that the studios can tap into it to offer users more options.
Furthermore, because Managed Copy is part of the AACS specification, this isn't a feature exclusive to Microsoft or Intel solutions. While both companies believe that their respective products (Media Center Edition, and Viiv, respectively) will shine in a world were Managed Copy is available, AACS defines a set of requirements that technically any company could aspire to, be it Apple, Motorola, or another player in the game.
What about Blu-ray? Currently, Blu-ray has announced no such mandatory support. There are also plenty of questions about whether or not Blu-ray will entertain this option. The Blu-ray Disc Association so far has adopted AACS conditionally; it is still subject to review. Furthermore, Blu-ray to date has adopted content protections above and beyond AACS, adding BD+ and ROM-Mark to their arsenal. Such added protections appear to be part of an appeasement plan: the studios want more than AACS pr
The price is always right if someone else is paying.
I wish the talks between the two had not broken down because I don't see this ending easily. Sony will put it in their PS3 which will tremondously help out the format, just like the PS2 did for DVDs. But of course the "official" format will not die easily, and now that they have the support of microsoft and intel, it will make it even more difficult for one format to just quietly leave the game.
As long as I can still use DVD Decryptor and DVD Shrink on these discs I don't really care. I don't think the market is ready for a new format, I mean how long was VHS out before DVD became available? I've built up a solid collection of DVD's and I don't plan on buying them over again (I mean renting from Netflix and copying them). Should be interesting how this pans out...
It becomes a lot easier to stomach a 500+ dollar game purchase when it will also play blu-ray dvds aswell, because people will want to watch the better quaility pictures.
It isn't that difficult to figure out why MS hates blu-ray and that is because their XBOX360 (which is really unimpressive) is still stuck on regular DVDs. If you have to buy an XBOX360 (400) + nextgen dvd player (200-300, maybe more) vs buying a ps3 (500, price is a guess, but I can't see it costing more than that. If it does its dead before it ships) people are SAVING money by buying the ps3.
well, not really but you can spin it that way.
Wow! A proprietary Sony format isn't being widley adopted? I'm shocked!
It's the porn industry that's going to decide, remember? Who cares what the industry people think...
The ability to view porn in more private circumstances was hugely transformative for the average joe. So the availability of porn made a major difference for videotape buying decisions.
The internet was another dramatic transformation. Not only was human contact at point-of-purchase no longer necessary, but also tiny slices of the market (some rather bizarre) could be specifically targeted and exploited by porn merchants.
But it's hard to imagine Blu-Ray/HD-DVD having any such effect on the porn market. In fact, to really take advantage of better resolution, etc. would probably require production budgets that porn makers just don't have.
No, the main beneficiaries of this in terms of product are the movie studios. Second and third are video games and TV (not necessarily in that order). Between them, they are the important players in determining the succeeding format.
As a formor Laserdisc owner double sided discs suck. HD-DVD discs support 15 GB on a single side and that is all that matters.
Unfortunately, according to this article ,
According to this the delay is not for technical reasons: "The consortium behind the disc wants to avoid repeating 1997's slow launch of the DVD, for which only a few titles were initially available."On the other hand, in 1997 there wasn't a competing DVD format breathing down anyone's neck.
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
Which one can record the whole of Superbowl in HDTV.
And I thought the editors had bad spelling . . . *looks at UID* . . . maybe there was some evil Low-ID-Spelling-Disease outbreak . . . .
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Sony's products are cheap, break, lousy construction and the most properietary of anything i've ever seen. This comes from everything in PDA's to car stereo's and home theaters.
PS2 was a hype, PS3 no don't will be..cheap receivers that never meat rates wattage
How did this get modded up to +3 interesting? It's not even readable!
Good grief man, take an english class! How do you expect people to take your argument seriously when you can barely even communicate it?
"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
--James Madison
So 50GB is miles off, of course it is because we all know that HD-DVD is so real and there are so many devices whereas Blu-ray will only be shipping in potentially the biggest selling console of 2006.
Microsoft do XBox 360, Sony do PS3, XBox 360 hasn't gone for either HD-DVD or Blu-ray. If HD-DVD was so real why didn't they pick it for XBox 360?
Its amazing how this talk of reality of Blu-ray (which I've actually seen demo'ed) over HD-DVD tends to ignore the fact that only one company (Sony) is producing a mass market player in 2006.
If PS3 wins, then Blu-ray will have significant volume in 2006 which will drive down costs and mean larger capacity disks arrive much earlier.
"Grand Theft Auto - Whole of the damned Continenal United States" anyone?
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Their competitor's response should then be to show people their 50GB discs. They don't do it, they have egg on their face. They do it, Microsoft has egg on their face.
Either way, I end up smiling at somebody else covered in egg.
It's like sex, except I'm having it!
Microsoft and Intel are both on Toshiba's side, so my guess is that recorders for that standard will meet pc long before BR ones.
...and if "Windows Improved-GUI-ever Definitive Edition 2010" ships only in HD-DVD format... well...
Throw in that blank HD will be cheaper than BR dvd, and their (limited) "backward compatibility", and anyone could find pretty clear who's going to be "winner" in this race...
The Blue Ray specs require a JVM present in every Player device. To do menuing etc.. Maybe that why M$ does not like Blue Ray.
In effect, Microsoft is accusing the BDA of promoting vapourware.
The irony is delicious.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
That's some fucked up spelling and grammar there dude.
To be honest, I've owned a PS2 since the day it hit the shelves, and it's been a blast from then until now. I haven't bought a replacement unit, so I'm still using a launch one -- hasn't let me down, my drive works fine and my controllers are working perfectly. No complaints about the hardware there. Game-wise, it's been an equal treat for me.
With regards to hype, I'm not sure if you've noticed but the hype machine for XBox360 has done everything aside of putting signs in orbit about the impending system's launch. Not to mention coming out and unveiling a product with all its specs, then turning around and offering 2 SKUs for it, clearly an attempt to get people to buy the most expensive one. By contrast, Sony's unveiling was an initial discussion of the system's specs for the developers, and some hardware demo reels showing off various elements of the system's performance. At least they didn't go to Rent-a-Hobbit to find someone to introduce the product.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
they can kick start xbox 361 based on the new drives. =)
Imagine the amount of content that could now be packaged with games.
-Alex. http://bit.ly/1iVPtfA
The Blu-Ray spec requires a fully functional Java interpreter to be embedded in every media player. You know the scripting language that DVDs use to control menus and stuff like that? On a Blu-Ray system, this is a full Java implementation with access to a TCP stack and everything.
(I saw some sessions about this at JavaOne this year.)
How could Microsoft get behind something like that?
Ars doesn't get "Slashdotted," nor have we for years (if you're talking about the site going down). We're quite capable of handling the load (so long as we don't happen to have beta code in at the moment ;), so could you kindly stop ripping our content with our permission? If the site was going down that would be one thing, but it's not right now, and it doesn't normally.
i am pretty sure blu-ray adds a thing called BD+ over the top of VC-1 to prevent copying... that way they can say they support VC-1 as a standard but they cripple it with BD+ on top of it...
With tens of gigs of memory, I won't fill it up with current data anyway. Also comparing their difference in memory isn't huge. Why not make other comparison such as speed and reliability, which can be more important. Then of course the price.
I am harvesting funny/good quotes. Please help by putting them in your sigs
From reading the FAQ on the Blu-ray.com web site (not same as Blue-ray association) there are already players supporting Blu-ray in Japan, but we are unlikely to see them in North America until 2006.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
And I thought the editors had bad spelling . . . *looks at UID* . . . maybe there was some evil Low-ID-Spelling-Disease outbreak . . . .
Wee cn spal jest fin thx yo vry muck.
(just kidding, of course)
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
First, please explain how Sony products are more proprietary than Microsoft products? I didn't know there were different degrees of proprietary-ness.
I have owned quite a few Sony products (including an original frist gen PS that still runs like a champ) and haven't had any quality issues. What specific products have you owned that you had such bad problems with?
And you want to talk hype? I didn't see Sony unveiling the PS3 on MTV in a show where more camera time was given to the hosts and various bands than the console and it's games.
Slackware
...or don't, and watch them get burned. then go buy hd-dvd anyway
Microsoft and Sony aren't Behemoths. A behemoth is a giant creature with one brain. Microsoft and Sony are Kudzus... Essentially dozens of big companies operating under the same name, often times competing with eachother. For example, the Memory Stick division and Sony's Playstation division couldn't agree on licensing terms, and so the Playstation (and the PS2) didn't ship with Sony's own memory card standard.
Sony's tech support on their 2,000k dollar fragile-as-crystal notebooks is an exercise in pain. Yet Sony has been the most agreeable publisher I've had the pleasure of working with. Their notebooks are terrible. But their PDA's were the best on the market.
In case you haven't noticed, both companies have their shoddy construction problems in certain areas. Sony's flagship PlayStation was known for a short lifespan and needing to be propped up at funny angles. Microsoft's Windows had to be rearchitected and rebuilt (the latest delay of Vista) because the XP codebase was just crap.
On the other hand, both of their gaming divisions delivered respectable platforms this past generation. Sony's PS2 was a cheaply built little machine, but it had good development tools, good adaptability, and a realistic price point. The Xbox had some great features like XBL and a HDD.
Yet with all of this, the debate over Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD seems like an argument over which Japanese DoCoMo handset is better to sell in New York: Both are incompatible with the current generation of televisions (even cutting edge ones), so what's the point? They're so DRM emcumbered that you can't get a better-than-DVD signal without re-upgrading your home theater system to a "trusted" one.
While HD-DVD requires managed copy ability, companies can still veto it by offering the service for some ridiculous fee.
Ironically Blu-Ray not taking off is better for Sony's PS3. That will ensure lower piracy rates due to the lower availability of duplicating hardware. We also know that it isn't "many years" away, as the PS3 will ship with it. And while the PS3 ship date is optimistic, it will ship within 1-2 years.
Both companies have vested interestes in the technology. What, you think Microsoft is pushing this for consumers? What company do you think is providing the mandatory managed copy software? What, did you think you could copy that HD-DVD to Linux?
The ______ Agenda
The big question for me is which one will be more reliable? BD will have a harder, but much thinner surface. HD will have a more traditional surface. Which one will last at least 10 years as a writing medium for burners?
If you narrow it down to less than 5 digits, you can separate the contenders from the pretenders. ;)
As for the original parent comment:
"Give me something cheap, give me something universal and give me something that companies can utilize today."
It's called DVD+/-, with optional dual layer. It's cheap, it's "universal" and it's already here. When you can get 400GB for $20 (100 blank 4gb DVDs), it's just a matter of how much time you want to spend. For archival purposes I end up keeping all my TV shows encoded via MPEG-4.
You want something more permanent? UATA hard drive prices are dropping.
The thing that has a lot of the anti-DRM people up in arms about Blu-Ray is how it will enable content companies to change the software on their player, and other evil things about that. However..
HD-DVD MUST allow you to make AT LEAST ONE COPY. This is something that current DVD's don't even let you do (legally.) For this reason alone, i am switching my support from Blu-Ray to HD-DVD (and I suggest that the consortium advertise this. say "blu-ray wont even let you do what you want with the content you own!"). Besides, if it can be shared at least once, theres nothing that says we can't create some software to let us copy it more than once...
so blu-ray has java. for better interactivity...
is there ANYONE who likes the interactive menus on the dvds?
i hate them.
sometimes i even have problems with finding the right menu option for playing the movie!
am i the only one who'd like to simply have a button on the remote-control called PLAY_THE_MOVIE ?
why are there special (and different on every dvd) menus to set up the language & subtitles, when you can select them with the remote control while watching the movie?
"Proven capacity" is somewhat of a vague term being that HD-DVD hasn't shipped yet, and Blu-ray has only shipped in Japan. Being that now the HD-DVD is delayed till 2006, from the consumers standpoint, nothing has really been proven yet, and for either format it's too early to tell.
As far as costs are concerned, they only talk of manufactering costs which tend to stabilize over time. Certainly, initially, Blu-ray should cost a lot more than HD-DVD if it needs retooling, however once econmies of scale are established manufactering cost tend to plateau, hence while this is short term concern, but perhaps not a long-term one. What isn't talked about however is liceencing cost, the main issue in contention that caused the split was that currently you have to pay the 6C ~4%-10% of the sale price of DVD hardware(depending on the cost of the machine), something that HD-DVD retains, I'm not sure how either format fares but ultimely this will be a massive cost when initial players are expected to cost $500-$1,000(maybe much more than manufactering differences).
Engadget has a great article on this:
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/
Also, the argument "Support for hybrid discs" is ridiculous. HD-DVD use "flippers" as hybrid disks. i.e. DVD on one-side and HD-DVD on the other (kinda like the old DVDs that had "widescreen" & "fullscreen"). JVC, has developed a Blu-ray disk that is a true hybrid, having a DL-DVD9 and a Blu-ray on one side.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/4
However, while MS/Intel are big names it seems irrelevant being that they don't actually have any products to market (and XB360 won't have HD-DVD standard; not even an option at this point, maybe a $500 system to fit above their "core" and "Premium" bundles). Only other impact that the deal seems to have is Media Center PCs, but 71% of MediaCenter PCs don't even come with a TV-tuners (which kinda makes the most important feature useless). Windows support can easily be cured w/drivers, and Dell and HP are Blu-ray supporters hence windows PCs from them will likely come with Blu-Ray. Seems to be more a PR-deal. Ultimetely it will be the Studios that decide the winner, and they will at the end choose the format that the consumers are buying.
http://www.mediacenterpcworld.com/news/502
I think one thing people totally forget about the HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray competition is that TDK recently demonstrated a new optical disk material that is extremely scratch-proof, which makes it possible for Blu-Ray discs to no longer need the protective caddy now needed for Blu-Ray machines now sold in Japan.
As such, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray can use improved versions of the same mechanism now used for DVD drives. This opens the door for a company like Plextor to produce a computer optical disk drive that can read and write BOTH formats on the same drive, with the drive connected to the motherboard via either ATA-100 or Serial ATA interfaces. That also means we could see console (and eventually portable) players that can read both formats.
In short, we could end up with a situation akin to the DVD+R/RW and DVD-R/RW--combo drives that can use both formats.
The winner will be the one that has the most DVDs available for it. How are people going to decide which format to release DVDs in? Who is going to make that decision?
In soviet russia stale jokes recycle you!
Now there's a new compact disc with 30 GB?! I only have a 20 GB HD!
WHY MUST GOD TORMENT ME SO
USPTO upholds Eolas's embedded Web app patent
Ever since the Internet became a place where fortunes are made or lost, one of the most vexing features of the online scene has been the periodic emergence of a long line of doomsday patents. You know what I'm talking about--patents that cover basic Internet functionality that we all use, like streaming video, or hyperlinks, or applets embedded into web pages.
This last patent, the infamous '906 patent granted to Eolas and the University of California, was one of the first patents to get the young online tech scene riled up way back in 1998. At that time, Cringely was the first to bring Eolas to light as, at best a very irritating thorn in Microsoft's side and, at worst, really bad news for anyone who wants to do anything interesting with a Web page.
The dot-com bubble has since come and gone, and Microsoft has moved on from the late 90's antitrust troubles that many thought would do them in, but Eolas and the '906 patent are still kicking, and they've just scored a major victory against the Redmond giant.
A back-and-forth series of legal victories and setbacks (covered on Ars) had previously resulted in the USPTO provisionally invalidating the '906 patent. This decision was greeted with joy in the tech community, but it looks like we rejoiced a bit too early. The USPTO moved today to uphold the Eolas patent, dealing a serious blow to Microsoft and potentially to everyone who makes or uses a Web browser.
I myself had mistakenly thought that the USPTO's previous invalidation of the patent was pretty much the end of the story. I guess this is why I'm not a patent lawyer. According to a lawyer/blogger cited by eWeek, a review of an existing patent by the USPTO usually results in an initial, provisional invalidation while the agency takes a closer look at the prior art. This invalidation is often overturned after the full review is completed. So Eolas's case history fits this profile, with a full review now having validated the company's patent.
I'm not going to do any doom-and-gloom speculation on what this victory means, especially when the infringement case is being appealed to the Supreme Court; I'll let you guys handle the speculation in the discussion thread. I'll just wrap up by noting that the '906 patent appears to be vague enough to cover almost any program that's embedded in a Web page and that talks bidirectionally with a server. That means not just Microsoft's ActiveX, the technology that originally brought on the round of Eolas vs. Microsoft infringement lawsuits, but Flash, Java, and most of the other stuff that makes the Web interesting to use. So there's no doubt that if the Eolas folks can take this fight all the way, they'll be very, very rich. It remains to be seen, however, just how much headache they'll cause for the rest of us as Microsoft and everyone else rushes to work around the patent.
I realize that the patent system is supposed to be in place to encourage innovation. But I don't think a mad, industry-wide rush to cook up potentially painful work-arounds was the kind of innovation that the Founding Fathers had in mind.
So everyone is pushing back delivery dates now.
_ launch_delay/
Here's the news on "The Register": http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/hd-dvd_us
Sony is going to use whatever is standard by then, being second isn't always a bad thing. HD games and movies are years to early on the market or will be, look at the first gold disk movies. Movie content is also going to be secured and just a few HD screens at the moment can handle this, we buy FUD tv's now! If sony is smart its going to wait til the standard is set and use that, the 360 is now stuck with DVD for games no mater what upgrade MS puts on the market the next few years.
Historically, Microsoft has been extremely pro-Consumer... they just sometimes put themselves first.
I mean, Microsoft created the hardware commoditization... had they not licensed a compatible MS-DOS to Compaq (and instead went back to IBM to re-negotiate), the commoditization of PCs wouldn't have happened. They historically were willing to support any hardware platform, not support the monopolization... they haven't tried to lock in a single video card.
Even where they attempted to monopolize markets (DirectX 3D vs. OpenGL), it was arguably pro-consumer... while OpenGL was the better API, MS's API was able to be supported by more hardware manufacturers, while OpenGL was more complicated and required more power...
Microsoft has recently moved in an anti-consumer direction, but ONLY for their own stuff.
Look, I love iTunes and iTMS, but that said, the Microsoft WMA "standard" does support competition in both the player (hardware) market and competition in the music "retailer" market...
While they aren't generally friendly to standards, and compete like dogs against any perceived threat, their default is generally to bring prices down for customers... just not THEIR prices.
Their aggressive tactics DEFINITELY involved non-innovating and swooping in when the leader falters, bundling with their OS monopoly, and generally engaging in tactics that would be cutthroat for a small company, and at times criminal for a monopolist.
That said, they aren't an anti-consumer company, beyond the fact that their actions destroy the competition.
In fact, they have generally been the MOST resistant to limiting user actions, contrasted on the OS side with IBM's OS/2 and Apple's Mac OS (Classic OR X)... you could replace the default shell, and until Win95, some companies did, and other easy to tweak aspects of the OS.
I think that the MS bashing needs to focus on where they are abusive... They also piss off enthusiasts for the same reason Wal-Mart pisses off upper-middle class consumers... If you appreciate quality things, then you HATE the low priced player that puts the company that makes higher quality stuff out of business.
As a enthusiast, I hate that MS's push to lower prices for computers (without lowering their prices) has pushed out good technology and replaced it with crap... however, as a purchaser of computer hardware, I do appreciate how much prices have dropped, and I realize that it was a combination of Microsoft and Intel pushing EVERY OTHER component to commodity status... just like I appreciate the myriad of Linux players doing the same thing to the OS component, and OpenOffice/StarOffice pushing productivity software to commodity status.
Alex
1080p60 with low/non-lossy compression!
http://www.freebsd.org
I don't really care who wins. And I don't see any reason to hurry and be amongst the bleeding edgers.
As a matter of fact, I'm not even quite sure who won DVD+R vs DVD-R ?
So I'll sit it out, it's gonna take a little while for the prices to be acceptable, and for recorders to come out, anyway.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
t's not like VC-1 isn't in both formats, so what is to gain by not backing Blu-ray?
Well, for one thing, I suspect MS would prefer to not pay Sony royalties on every Xbox 360 sold. I have no doubt that that fits into the decision to (eventually) put HD DVD on Xbox360s.
What we all want is itunes for TV and movies, and a 1 tb. server with wireless access to our 1 mm. thick TV screen in our basement so that we can 'own' our movies/tv shows instead of 'renting' them, so our children can go, "What's this Mash thing? Is it about potatoes?"
That was the defining point for me, too. Now it's a simple choice between MSFT or SONY.
And between those two, I have no idea who is the more evil. They're both proprietary as hell, they both want to "corner" markets in all the same areas (software, media players, consoles, games, condoms), and there is absolutely no limit to their business tactics. They don't care who they have to assassinate to get the job done.
I'll choose neither unless I absolutely am forced to, and then I'll try to screw whichever one I can because they'll do the same thing to me if given the opportunity.
"If you have to buy an XBOX360 (400) + nextgen dvd player (200-300, maybe more) vs buying a ps3 (500, price is a guess, but I can't see it costing more than that. If it does its dead before it ships) people are SAVING money by buying the ps3. " Guess What? You don't HAVE to buy any of that stuff. You could SAVE more money buy being happy with what you have.
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
What reason does the average consumer have to upgrade?
Just ponder that one for a minute. What do EITHER of the formats actually offer?
1 - increased storage space. OK, we'll now have the ability to watch the expanded Return of the King, all 4 1/2 hours of it, without once getting up out of our seat to change discs. Since standing up every 3 hours is such an inconvenience. (not to mention the tiny number of movies which can't fit onto a current DVD)
And 2 - Full support for high-def televisions. Except that despite years on the market, penetration is TINY and still only the top couple percent of people own them.
And that's pretty much IT. (We won't even discuss "draconian DRM" or such things) Now, look at all the advantages of DVD over VHS that convinced the public to convert.
See my point? The *ONLY* way that the public will switch over to a new DVD format is if the studios force them to. (by dropping support for old DVD entirely) But since the studios won't agree on a format, even THAT won't work. Like hell the public will buy TWO new players just to be able to play all the new releases they want.
These new technologies, BOTH of them, are set to fail spectacularly. They'll end up just being proprietary formats for the various video game consoles. But unless everyone starts cooperating in a BIG way there's no chance whatsoever of them supplanting DVD as the home movie format of choice.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
Disabling by key revocation is supported by both players.
As for the RUMOR that you'll have to have a network connection for a player - nothing but bull. No company is going to REQUIRE a network connection for consumer electronics.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If Microsoft "followed the money" they would have just joined the java consortium and standards body instead of creating .Net.
If Microsoft "followed the money" they would just support the OpenDocument format instead of waging war on office suites.
If Microsoft did anything for reasons other than emotion, they would be a very different company. Very little of what Microsfot does makes sense outside of the context of a strong agressor aiming to kill competition at all costs - not all gains.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
...why do so many people point to line transition costs as a hugely important factor? Are publishers going to be DUMPING DVD lines right now to pick up HD lines? It seems rather foolish that they would toss their breadwinner away to move to any of the undecided formats, so it seems more likely that they'd want to pick up whatever ones would be more easily added to their existing facilities (i.e. "take up less space"), what ones would start off having higher capacities so they can kick next-gen support out the door well, and what ones seem to show more promise 5-10 years from now when they actually WILL be cutting back on some DVD support.
Call me a wacko if you like, but Microsofts decision has nothing to do with the technical merits of either system.
Microsoft is using it's old-fashioned FUD tactics to cause neither system to succeed.
Microsoft wants to becomes the content provider and platform of choice for high-definition video and it wants high definition discs to fail just long enough for it's own platform to be viable.
It's that simple.
Microsoft want like nothing more than for slashdot types to start drawing technical lines in the sand and forget that it's not about the technology, it's about control of the platform.
I've had an Xbox since day one, with no trouble, and love it, but even I can't understand all the 360 hype (nor the PS3 hype for that matter). There's really nothing terribly appealing in either company's launch lineup, and there's already a terrific stock of games for either company's existing system. I just got a PS2 a few weeks ago (a friend gave me a 'broken' one and bought a new slim one), and I've been having a blast playing R-Type Final and Gradius V. There are other games, that have been out for years on PS2 and/or Xbox, that I haven't had a chance to play, and that look more appealing that anything announced for the new launches. So I dunno... where is the real appeal (and the reason for the rabid hype and anticipation) for these new, still-unreleased, systems?
"could you kindly stop ripping our content with our permission?"
It makes you seem to small when you post whining like this.
Yeah, so you'll miss a $10 in ad revenue. Big deal.
Get over it dude... get over it.
History shows a pattern, over and over, that seems dictated by human nature. A new organization comes up, shakes up the establishment, wins converts, storms the old older, and becomes the new dominant force. Then, this new organization becomes complacent, sclerosed, self-centered and parasitic. It behaves increasingly like the old establishment it replaced. This is especially true in the technical world, which works on a "winner takes all" model in many areas.
Microsoft was such a revolution in its days. Now it's part of a crusty establishment that is increasingly getting defensive and still encroaches on obsolete notions.
Washington was an American hero not just because he succeed in his conspiracy against the British crown, but also because he felt he was getting in the way and refused to serve a third presidency term in spite of the appeal of power. IBM is a geek hero because they embraced open-source in spite of their huge proprietary software base.
Microsoft's proprietary protocols and file formats are now getting in the way of innovation. Their conception of software is to computer science what alchemy was to chemistry: coded parchments, arcane ingredients and secret experiments versus publication and peer review. It's time to move on.
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
'Nuff Said. This is gonna be confusing!
What they'll do is require an "update" to play the disc. More than likely, they'll include the "update" on the actual disk itself, completely unknown to you unless you have to "reboot" your player by turning it off and back on.
So, "Big White Cocks Little Black Holes #88" hits the market, and you slap that little jewel into the player. It has a firmware update for your player, since all players will have very similar electronics. The disk plays, or it DOESN'T because your player has been blacklisted. You can play older movies, but not new ones.
Hybrid technology involves a single side, with multiple layers.
From the Register:h p_vs_ms_intel/
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/dell_
By Tony Smith 30 Sep 2005 14:04
Dell, HP slam Intel, MS' 'erroneous' HD DVD claims
Our format's better. Isn't. Is. Isn't. Is. Isn't. Is...
Backers of the Blu-ray Disc (BD) have hit back against "erroneous" claims from Intel and Microsoft that HD DVD is the superior next-generation optical disc format for PCs.
The joint Intel/Microsoft statement was said to be "not aligned" with the "vast majority" of computer industry participants, Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) members Dell and HP said.
"Microsoft and Intel's announcement erroneously indicates that HD-DVD has an advantage in a number of areas," they claimed, pointing to the chip and software giants' statement that HD DVD offers a greater storage capacity than BD.
As The Register noted at the time, Intel and MS' claim that HD DVD's 30GB capacity is better than BD's 25GB is nonsense: the two companies conveniently ignored the fact they were talking about dual-layer HD DVD discs and single-layer BDs.
Dell and HP also challenged MS and Intel on their claim that HD DVD is the only format to allow users to make controlled copies of the content stored on the disc: that's part of the AACS copy-protection system, the BDA said, and AACS is also part of the BD spec.
BD also provides scope for hybrid discs, backward compatibility with DVD, the ability to operate in slimline drives for notebook PCs and a high degree of interactivity, all features MS and Intel claimed were only available with HD DVD, the PC vendors said.
"Dell has no doubt that BD best meets the needs of computer users and provides the type of open industry standards needed to drive innovation and growth of the format across all platforms - consumer electronic, personal computers and gaming consoles," the company's CTO, Kevin Kettler said.
"From a PC end-user perspective, Blu-ray is a superior format. It offers 67-150 per cent more storage capacity, higher transfer rates, slimline notebook compatibility, broadband connectivity and a proven interactive layer with BD-Java," added Maureen Weber, general manager of HP's Personal Storage Business. ®
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
I think their high capacity data storage will greatly effect both the
Blu-Ray and HD-DVD markets.
Ones things for sure. The data storage market is HOT !
Most of you slashdotters are idiots... For one, Blu-ray is a far better format, and will last longer before needed technilogical advance. It holds more data a LOT more if you star adding layers. AND STOP SAYING BLU-RAY SUPPORTS EVIL DRMs... IT DIDN'T UNTIL VERY RECENTLY!!! BECAUSE MOVIE STUDIOS WOULDN'T SUPPORT THE FORMAT WITHOUT A DRM... HD-DVD ALSO HAS DRMs... DONT LET THE BETTER FORMAT DIE!!! SUPPORT BLU-RAY!!!
Sony's got some cameras that are using Blu-Ray discs all ready for storage of video. Random access to video! I saw the camera up close, and I held the disc. Blu-Ray has been in production for a while in shipping products.
Yes it must let you make one copy. However it also provides the option to have a studio make you pay for that copy (see article).
Now what does that imply? The need for network connectivity to make a copy. Are you really so happy with being able to make a copy when your copy of that disc is logged somewhere?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Look closely at that article. They are required to allow you to make at least one copy. They may charge you for making copies. If you can charge for it, you can effectively prevent it.
Microsoft and Intel are both on Toshiba's side, so my guess is that recorders for that standard will meet pc long before BR ones.
Ah, but Apple is in the Blu-Ray consortium and had historically done far more to advance new PC technology than Microsoft. Like for instance all computers shippig with Blu-Ray players by mid 2006 (just a possibility, not saying I've heard anything - but it's Apple's MO with new hardware like DVD burners).
Microsoft can support the format all they like, but they do not make computers... and Dell is ALSO on board with Blu-Ray. So where is the PC support really going to come from when no major computer maker is shipping with players?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Didn't see anyone mention it, but HD-DVD has a one up as far as manufacturing goes, at least near term. Why? Because HD doesn't require new machines to make the discs, they can just upgrade certain components. Not true of Blueray. Almost more importantly, no one has experience running a blueray fab. DVDs are now 2nd nature.
Seriously, how are they going to sell these drives for a reasonable price when blue laser diodes are insanely expensive?
Correct: MS follows the money
HD-DVD spec has Microsoft IPR in it, Blu-Ray does not. Hence if HD-DVD wins, MS gets more cash than if Blu-Ray does, its as simple as that.
- Paul
How does it go again?
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
And, Oh yea.. Prepare to be boarded!
Smile.
"Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and it's well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs."
Wow Cool! Then the savings can be passed on to the consum... er.. ha.. HA... BWAHAHA!! BWAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
I tried to say it! I really tried!
I can't wait 'til my Blu-Ray player has a trojan! The day will soon be here when we can hack someones home entertainment center, broadcast whatever they are watching, and have it automatically sent to a P2P network without them knowing.
The recording industry will be backing the format that allows copy protection--real copy protection this time.
Gumball.
They can still sell GTA:USA cross-platform.
The difference is that it all comes on one Blu-Ray disc for PS3, and 20 DVDs for XBox360 - with appropriate cost differentials for packaging.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
I'm still trying to figure out why MS even cares. They're a software company. Shouldn't they fully support both? Do they care who provides the best RAM or the best hard drives or even the best CPU? IMO all they should care about is supporting the hardware the consumers want them to support, not try to dictate what hardware the consumer has available.
The only problem I see is the X Box division. I can see where they want something ASAP to be competitive, and they want to make sure what they choose will be supported by other industries (the movie industry).
I don't know how I feel about a big monopoly player "wagging the dog" so to speak in order to insure its competitiveness in another arena.
I agree, hype surrounding hardware cracks me up. It's all about the games, and to be honest the Xbox never appealed to me because I have both a PS2 and a Gamecube. Most games come out cross platform, so I've never needed to cover that third base.
Have fun with the PS2. If you really want some engaging and entertaining gameplay, definitely consider playing Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3. They're unbelievably fun. Though if you like scrolling shooters you might find a slight drought on the PS2. Gamecube's Ikaruga is hands down one of the best shooters to come out in recent memory.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Sony has been the undisputed leader in professional grade magnetic video and audio recording equipment for many decades. The stuff wasn't and isn't cheep, but if your equipment for production grade audio-visual recording and editing isn't Sony, chances are a lot of the parts inside are. A lot of your criticisms apply only recently, Sony's history is much deeper. Hopefull Sony is move back from an industry evil-doer to it's former status of highly respected industry leader like in the old days; only time will tell.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
This reminds me of the SyQuest v. MO wars that went on in the early to mid 1990s...crazy, as both technologies were supplanted by Iomega Zip and the rapidly falling prices of CD-R drives and media. This namby-pamby back and forth is disgusting. The power of greed at work...certainly not innovation. This is all about getting to market, grabbing market share, and making a buck! Has nothing to do with which technology is truly superior to the other, nor what's good about each. Nobody wins when they do this. Someone will come along in five years and bury both HD-DVD and BD-ROM technology. This will be forgotten as quickly as the Syquest v. MO battle.
[sigh]
HD-DVD will allow this. People can rip the HD-DVD to hard drive, but the rip will still be DRM encoded. So to stream it to another device for playback, the playback device mfg will have to license the DRM technology from Microsoft.
The problem with Blu-Ray, from Microsoft's perspective, is that it does not rely entirely on Microsoft's DRM. It allows the movie studio to decide if they will allow the disk to be ripped to HD and streamed. With HD-DVD, all movies will be capable of being ripped. If a lot of movie studios decide to not let their movies be ripped, there will be less demand for Microsoft's MCE based computers, and less demand for Microsoft DRM licenses on playback devices. So Microsoft has backed the one format that guarantees that movies will be capable of being ripped.
I'd like to bear witness to what I've seen relating how much a product is advertised thru different mediums to how popular the product becomes.
From what I've seen with my own eyes on the rare occasion that I watch television, I've noticed that the "popular" products seem to be advertised fairly heavily (Apple's iPod, as opposed to Creative's Zen player) over the TV airwaves/cable signals/satellite transmissions. In fact, most of the really popular products have been advertised over television. If I knew better, I'd say that TV outdoes Radio in advertising, but we all know that's probably BS since many stations do about 70% commercials, 30% music. (At least in Memphis.)
If companies really want to get their product out, so far, advertising logic would be "Let them see it, watch it in 'use' (I bet those dancers on the iPod commercial just had the set on, and not hearing any actual music thru the headphones,) and make sure they know what it does or give them a catch-phrase to make them think they need it," and that means advertising on television.
I wish Linux would get a lot more advertising on TV. I pray that many OSS solutions would try to raise money for advertising their product on TV, just to spite the corporate greed-mongers and show that there are alternatives that are FREE to use. I go to sleep at night hoping advertisements for alternative solutions to many things in our lives (computers and their OSes, generic drugs vs brand name drugs or even homeopathy vs brand name drugs, etc.) will suddenly appear on the b00b t00b.
The whole thing is, advertising sells, sitting on your butt in obscurity does not. OSS should take that single thought to heart, as well as any other company that wishes to get their product out on the market.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
"I think you'll find that for most people, DVD's are "good enough". Heck, most people don't even have HDTVs to take advantage of a higher resolution picture."
I think you'll find the HD displays and HD content drive the demand for each other. IF I buy a new HDTV that does 1080p, I'm not going to be happy with regular old DVDs that only play 480p. I'll also want to get digital cable or satellite with the HD channels (instead of the $8 basic cable I'm using)And I'll probably quit playing games on my computer and buy a new console to play games in HD on the big screen.
And the reverse is true. I'm less inclined to buy and HDTV because there is not yet one agreed-upon and well-supported HD format for disc, my phone company hasn't yet pulled fiber to my home to compete with the cable company and drive the price down, and there is not yet a game console that looks as good as my computer with 1024x768 on a 19" screen.
These format wars hurt everyone because people like me don't want to buy the wrong thing, so we don't buy anything. And speaking of format wars, another reason I don't want to buy and HDTV is that I don't want to get caught on the wrong side of DVI vs. HDMI. DVI is less encumbered by copy-protection crap, which means I want it, but it also means that the movie-studios want it to be phased out. So perhaps those new HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players will not support DVI at full resolution as part of their protection measures? Sure, thats gonna piss off some HDTV owners, but the studios seem to be able to dictate whatever they want right now.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
That's why you want mandatory managed copy. You can get rid of all the (HD)DVDs (or store them away out of sight) by simply copying the contents onto a large disk array and playing the movies there. The argument MS is making is that BD hasn't confirmed manadatory managed copy which would not allow you to do this.
Woah there, boy....
30 GB * 8 Gb/GB * 1024 Mb/Gb = 245760 Mbits
245760 Mb / 25 Mb/sec = 9830 sec.
9830 sec / 60 sec/min / 60 min/sec = 2.73 hours.
How did you get 20 hours??
But still, 2.73 hours is plenty for most movies...
Seems two other parties want to put in their 2cents. Dell and HP fire back in wake of Microsoft and Intel's "inaccurate" HD-DVD claims.
7 45.html
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/09/29/news_6134
There is a HUGE difference between coercing a lot of people into connecting a player to the net and supporting easy key revocation, vs. doing it the hard way and striking out keys of discs you send out.
If a player required a net connection, I would never buy it because you have no idea what data it's sending out or even if the manufacturer just takes a liking to the thought of a mass forced upgrade. But if I can control to some extent how and when my player is updated/disabled, that is a tradeoff I am willing to make as long as I can burn my own media too - and home media is a big leg of the PS3 platform so I'm sure that I'll be able to do that with at least the PS3 player.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Digital Playground release "Island Fever 3" in HD-DVD format over a year ago. Whether the production "takes advantage" of the better resolution I'll leave to more experienced eyes than mine!
7 24&yr=&mon=
Link below for the official news release
http://www.digitalplayground.com/news.php?newsid=
MS is obliged to its shareholders to act in the way that makes the most money for them. The only time management should hold back is when they worry that everybody else will take their marbles and go home, causing MS shareholders to make less money. To understand this announcement, hop in the WayBack machine & watch All the President's Men. Follow the money.
MS has (legitimate) interest in selling its intellectual property, expanding the market for MS PC technologies, gaining competitive advantage in having "the best" DVD format on its game player, etc. All they have to do is determine what combination of features maximizes their various divisions' total profits, time their announcement for best possible "they're a distant second" leapfrogging, and ONLY THEN get some decent PR type to choose the senior engineer to put their best foot forward. That's what they've just done.
Not that the arguments are false; they sound reasonable enough. (If they didn't, they wouldn't have been made.) It's just that they are so (expectedly) lopsided. They make it seem a huge deal that they've got double-sided disks in pre-production at 20% more storage than the 1G Blu-Ray, and will lock in at 40% less storage than the Blu-Ray pre-production "totally unproven" technology. It's just that nobody should make decisions by listening to only one competitor's argument.
"Inquiring Minds Want to Know!"
When I saw this headline, I had the most awesome mental image of blue lasers decimating the Redmond campus...
- chrish
Umm because the 360 gets launched in less than two months and psx3 doesn't get launched till late spring next year at the soonest. Why the hell would sony advertise now?
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
PS2 seems to have a decent number of scrolling shooters, though I'm sorta disappointed by the lack of any from Capcom. Of course, I've got a few of those (and Ikaruga) on the Dreamcast still. You might want to check out Gradius V, it was actually a joint Konami/Treasure game, and there's a lot of Ikaruga style in it, so far as coloring, enemy ship formations, pacing, etc. They've done some incredible things with the 'option' side-ships.
ok it would have been hard to make a vhs/beat blayer, but HD and BD are both dvd size, it shouldn't be to hard to make players support both right? lets share.
You left out the beginning of the sentance: "if the article (re: Microsoft) is true..."
I guess you did not RTFA because you seemed to have missed his point. If TA is true, the manufacturing process of dual layer (30GB) HD-DVD and hybrid discs has been perfected already and both will be available at launch. If TA is true, dual layer Blu Ray (50GB) does not exist outside of a lab and might be years away.
This debate is about disc availability, now and when the players launch.
Were any chairs thrown?
every single news place posts there biggest argument is you can have hd-dvd now and not blueray. yet hd-dvd got deleayed until march 2006, and you can in fact buy a blueray tv top recorder if your rich enough now.. so whats teh deal ?? do news places onlien forget to tell the truth in there stories.. msnbc, cnet all of em say you can have hd-dvd now. but then the very next day they also announced its been delayed til march. and there are already retail blueray recording devices for the ultra rich.. so why are they still getting there stories mixed up ?>??
My theory is that the complete lack of spelling was interesting, but then again, it is just a theory. Still, I've never seen a more inventive use of "pails" in my life.
If all you ever do is play your own burned media, key revocation will not matter a whit to you. Basically what will happen is not so much firmware update on discs (impractical with a number of players around) but instead a disc will say "this key cannot be used to play me".
Although I figure if the right keys are compromised, we'll not see a real revocation. I mean if a Sony key is broken is Sony really going to let a few million players be reaclled because the keys are no longer good? I honestly don't think they've thought through the whole customer satisfaction angle with this whole revocation scheme.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I am not worried about movies, and studios. The reason why either of the two technology should be cheap and easily available and affordable is, so that it can help in data backup. I want to do away my stack of dvds and replace them by fewer disks.
Creativity uninhibited www.kreeti.com
I think we should look at history here.
When the PS2 came out it could read DVD's and in those days DVD's were quite expensive so what better way to protect against copying than a fairly expensive media. Also PS2's were cheaper than most DVD players although that changed fairly quickly.
Now of course DVD roms are cheap (I can get them cheaper than CD's now). I think the same will happen with Blueray and when you are looking at millions of sales of PS3's then it is only natural that prices will come down especially if Bluray players and recorders come out just after the PS3 launch.
If Microsoft thinks it can actually stop Bluray devices being installed in PC's then it's going to be in for a shock. In fact they will have to support it since Linux will (it will also support HD-DVD as well) and it will be demanded.
As far as the PS3 slipping - were are the links?
You do realise that there's a world out there, right? Maybe this person doesn't know it. Perhaps it would be wise to take a moment to reflect upon that. English isn't the most spoken language in the world, you know. ;-)
You're all wrong! LaserDisc is the future, bitches!!!
What they're trying to do is fundamentally impossible to acomplish.
They want players (millions of them!) to be able to play the discs without requiring a network-connection.
At the same time, they want the info needed for decoding the discs (the key basically) to remain secret.
These two wishes are mutually exclusive. You cannot distribute a key in millions of copies in equally many different physical devices and expect that *noone* will ever manage to somehow extract one of those keys.
Now, using multiple keys for different manufacturers help, but only a little. If you use say 1000 different keys and one of them are compromised, what will you do ? Turn 1/1000 of the existing players into paperweigths ? Recall and "update" them ? You're talking hundreds of thousands of players, or millions of players if it's the key in a popular brand....
Tamper-proof hardware helps a little, but it increases the cost of the players so the pressure to drop it will be large. (witness the current crop of $30 DVD-players)
Furthermore, every tamper-"proofing" can be broken, it's just harder. If a chip is sensitive to ligth, you can pry it open in darkness. If oxygene reacts with a chemical and destroys it on dismantling, you can dismantle it in a nitrogen-atmosphere. If the chip stays intact only aslong as a positive pressure of 20 atmospheres is maintained around it, you can open it in a pressure-tank. You get the idea.
As one of those who lost their houses (sorta, 6ft o' watar!) to Katrina, I can tell you this: If you value your external hard disk, put it in a ziploc bag or two. If you value your DVD-R's, just put them anywhere, preferably somewhere they won't snap. If they're not crap (read: Verbatim) then they'll be fine after a flood. I've seen them, and while Memorex just let the data layer etc fall off (a solid blue disc with only the marker lettering and 'memorex' name surviving), Verbatim was dirty, but cleanable and still completely there.
It sounds like an Advert, but that's my actual experience. Yay, Verbatim.