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Blu-Ray The Flavour of The Moment
News from all over seems to indicate that Blu-Ray has been accepted by entertainment media groups. wingman358 writes "The technology research group 'Forrester Research' has declared the Sony-led next generation Blu-Ray format the winner over HD-DVD, led by Microsoft. Forrester Research analyst Ted Schadler says, 'After a long and tedious run up to launch, it is now clear to Forrester that the Sony-led Blu-Ray format will win.'" Meanwhile, the format continues to improve. mimio writes "Hewlett-Packard Co. on Wednesday raised the stakes in a battle between high-definition DVD formats by urging a group led by Sony Corp. to include features important to PC makers and users." Finally, Tibor the Hun writes "Apparently Warner has switched from backing HD-DVD to Blu-Ray. What impact might this have on Microsoft's decision to use HD-DVD on the Xbox 360?"
What impact might this have on Microsoft's decision to use HD-DVD on the Xbox 360?"
I'd say that the impact will be to let people in the industry know that you can buck Microsoft and not suffer immediate penalty. If everyone else is in the Bluy-Ray camp and Microsoft isn't, then Microsoft will not look like it is leading the industry - an image they have been cultivating for nearly two decades.
This is an image impact for Microsoft. They will have to make HD-DVD work as a standard or accept defeat and use Blue-Ray in their next iteration of XBox.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
Has Microsoft said without a doubt that they are going with HD-DVD for the 360?
You are all a bunch of idots.
What's this Blue Ray? Why so many next gen DVD formats? Isn't Blu Ray and HD-DVD enough??
The name is way cooler.
Microsoft is putting it's weight behind HD-DVD because it's the not-Blu Ray choice. However, they're not shipping the Xbox 360 with HD-DVD drives (initially). It is possible in the future they could sell updated consoles with Blu Ray drives if Blu Ray does emerge as the winner.
And it's not like it really matters that much for a console - MS probably wouldn't mind if it was absolutely proprietary (like DC's GD-ROM was *supposed* to be), as long as they can play standard DVDs. Maybe when production costs go down, they'd even support both Blue-ray and HD-DVD.
Considering that the 360 uses a standard DVD drive out of the gate it would seem pretty obvious that if Blue-Ray gains traction and the disks and drives are in bulk production at a reasonable rate that Microsoft's "decision" will be about as long term as the decision to not include a next gen drive at all.
I guess it is *possible* that Microsoft has drank the coolaid to such an extent that they would prefer to hobble themselves than use a competitor's product (the Java requirement of Blue-Ray must be killing them). Even if so, it will simply mean they have a drive that is only really useful for gaming. I sometimes wonder if part (and only a small part to be sure) of the Game Cube's lackluster sales was the fact that is played "games only", removing the "but we can play CDs/DVDs on it" excuse. However, that is much less of an issue every day as DVD players are nearly available as toy surprises in cereal boxes.
Blue-Ray drives and disks have been available since the July in Japan as opposed to the HD-DVD which is still vaporware (just this month the first sample drives have shipped). I have to give Blue-Ray some credit for being available, some more for having a pretty important backers (Sony's commitment to it in the PS3 has a lot more credibility than "Xbox will have HD-DVD, maybe, someday"). The movie industry has made it clear they don't plan to *ignore* Blue-Ray (which was the earlier stance of some). HD-DVD looks forward to a more and more uphill battle if they can't pull more important backing than Microsoft out of their hat.
Sig under construction since 1998.
News from all over seems to indicate that Blue-Ray has been accepted by entertainment media groups.
Read: Pr0n industry.
____
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Betamax, need we say anything more.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
Seriously. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
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I suppose I'd be less hesitant if Forrester wasn't so often financed by the people they report on.
Anyone taking bets on the winning format yet?
Live forever, or die trying.
Warner has not made any statements that they are dropping HD-DVD, they will most likely release in both formats like Paramount plans.i ng_article.cfm?article_id=8150
http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/break
I like the fact that the war is won even before either format is officially in use. Honestly, we're not going to truly know the winner until the PS3/XBox/HD-DVD/Blu-ray players hit the shelves. Unless 90% of all distributors declare going on way or the other (and who's to say they won't change with the tide if they can do so without too steep a manufacturing loss), we really aren't going to know the winning standard until they're in full use. It's the good ole Betamax/VHS battle. Personally, I hope Blu-ray wins...and I hope we get Bur-Ray writable drives. That would be so bad ass!
What impact might this have on Microsoft's decision to use HD-DVD on the Xbox 360?
/. article linked in the summary is erroneous, it was based on a Bill Gates quote that pre-dated it by three months, and all he said was that MS might put a next-gen optical drive in the Xbox 360 after the format war had been settled, if the demand was there.
Microsoft has NOT decided on anything with regards to HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray on Xbox 360. The
We could say Mini-Disc, but that would just be rubbing it in.
..."to include features important to PC makers and users." I'd say the no1 feature of import is that the format isn't battling with some other similar but incompatible format. Stick to one format, guys, that's what will satisfy the consumer most. Do they REALLY want a rerun of VHS v Beta, Cassette v DCC, CD v Minidisc? These chaps are thick in the head.
I thought they used lasers. At least it won't take as much power.
"Blu-ray and HD-DVD were not available for comment."
and "flavor"... at least on this side of the pond.
XBox DOESN'T use HD-DVD, so no impact at all.
Blu-Ray, for all it's "industry support" is going to cost 10x more to implement for the industry than HD-DVD to retool all the DVD production lines in the world to make the new format. HD-DVD works, it's cheap to produce, there really IS no major advantage to the higher capacity of Blu-Ray that any consumer would notice, and the crazy content protection devices have no fair-use workarounds on Blu-Ray to compare to HD-DVD's right to "at least one managed copy".
It's just this way because the companies involved are too scared to slap their dicks on the table and get a tape measure, right? Because the cheaper, Just-Works, proven-technology evolutionary thing really should be the way to go, and not the expensive, convoluted, confusing, "OMG MORE GIGABYTESSSS!!!" still-improving-antiscratch-coating format?
Neko
HD-DVD is led by Toshiba, not Microsoft. MS is providing codecs for both HD-DVD and Blu-ray (more prominently in HD-DVD) and has lent its public support to HD-DVD.
Could you perhaps at least read the article summary before you write your headline if you're not going to read the article itself?
It's Blu-Ray, not Blue-Ray.
Welcome to Slashdot, Mr. Quayle.
I ultimately have the choice of what to buy. The format who's specification makes it easiest for me to backup and encode the content it contains is going to get my dough. Moreover, if I can't put a DVD in all it's players and watch the ~60 movies I already own, I won't consider it for quite some time.
What happened to everyone saying Microsoft made the right choice and that Blu-Ray would fail because they hadn't got the same technology ready to release?
Any grammatical or spelling errors above are for comic effect, and do not signify imperfection in the writer.
It's actually Blu-Ray, which is even cooler than Blue-Ray, because of the hip omitted letter. Everyone knows that to be cool in today's society you have to omit letters, add extra ones and/or substitute S with Z. Infact, the HD-DVD consortium would have been better off calling it H-Deez DVD from the start in order to appeal to the predominantly young market.
Just think, our grandads died shooting Germans in a freezing forest for this...
>...declared the Sony-led next generation Blu-Ray format the winner over HD-DVD, led by Microsoft...
C'mon get the facts right...
It's Blu-Ray, not Blue-Ray.
Can you name some of the more significant pornography studios which have accepted Blue-Ray as a standard?
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Do you guys really think that either Blu-ray or HD-DVD will be the next gen format? I was thinking it'd be digital along the lines of mp3. Notice that there is no physical replacement for CDs.
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
Looking at how Microsoft is pushing the 360 while Sony seems to be resting on its laurels with the PS3 (much in the same way they seem to be doing with the PSP), I'm not so sure Sony is going to be able to drive their standard through to adoption, at least through video game consoles. Microsoft may not be Nintendo when it comes to innovation, but they are working on their strengths, such as interconnectivity, and seem to be working on that and their image as a console manufacturer instead of just releasing hardware that will render forearm hair.
As a Nintendo fanboy, I'm more interested in the 360 than the PS3, and I don't own an Xbox.
Why not come up with something like "H-Fizzle to DV-doubleDizzle". That'll make it waaaaaaaaay cooler!
There, I fixed it for you.
Stop Global Warming!
Just say no to irreversible processes!
But what do fishermen have to do with DVD formats?
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
is how much DRM each technology uses.
Blu-ray lost my vote when they decided to build in functionality to allow the movie industry to actually physically disable your player if they chose. To restore your disabled player you would have to send it in for 'repair'.
Think for a second about how managed copy has to work. It HAS TO require a network connection back to some server to allow or deny siad copy. And that means it's like not having the feature at all.
Apple's "Fair Use" rules require no server interaction whatsoever. This is not the same as FairPlay - as far as I'm concerned Blu-Ray has as much fair use from the gate as HD-DVD, which is to say exactly none.
As for retooling, that's a one-time cost so in the long run completely meaningless. If a lot of plants have to re-tool anyway to make PS3 games, then why would they not also spit out movies?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Consumers are waiting for the first one to become cheap, and will heavily invest in that area.
Hell, i just want one without the craptastic rights management/copy protection scheme and be able to make backups for myself.
What impact might this have on Microsoft's decision to use HD-DVD on the Xbox 360?
Anyone played a Dreamcast? It was Sega's last from gaming system. It has awesome graphics, sound, and a native modem with an optional network card. One of its main failing was the media. Sega bet on a GD-Drive. GD drives was a modified CD-ROM that could fit nearly a gig of data on a special CD format. GD-Drives had the advantage of being cheap to make (only a few pennies more then coventional CD-ROM's) and similar storage compacity to DVD's system.
So why do I bring this all up? The Dreamcast didn't fail because of the hardware. It failed because it didn't have a good library of title at the US launch. It Japan the Dreamcast sold great for years; and I believe a few RPG's and budget games are still being made for the Dreamcast.
If Microsoft truley wants to thier HD format they have to have critical mas to do it with. Microsoft needs at least 4 solid games the day of the launch and 20 games by Christmas*. Without that volume Xbox 360 will almost certainly fail.
* The reason for the footnote is that Sega Saturn had 4 poorly designed games at launch and 10 titles before Christmas and failed.
Sony Playstation has 4 good (for the time) games at launch and within 30 days had 20 games. About 5 to 10 games kept coming a week for a very long time after the original thirty day period.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
.... In 5, 4, 3, 2........
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
Microsoft: 0
teehee!
Of course, I also expect these decisions to change again another 2 or 3 times since all of this now seems about people and groups pressuring to get what they want. Since BluRay is the flavor of this week, the remaining number of flip-flops I need can be expressed mathmatically as: Flip_Flops MOD 2 = 0.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
What interconnectivity are you talking about? Since they do not make consumer hardware it's hard to claim they offer suerior connectivity with anything.
Furthermore how is Sony "stting on its laurels". They do actually have Blu-Ray players out in Japan already, and are proceeding ponderously towards the PS3 launch at the same pace they always were. Should they have released the PS3 early before many blu-ray facilities were aviliable and hamstrung the launch?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/20/business/dv d.php
The people who really care about this battle are:
I mean, it's nice that HP wants this settled, but they are really the least impacted by this. I really doubt that too many PC purchases will be put on hold while waiting for the winner to really be declared in this mess.
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
Does no one remember history?
Betamax is way better than VHS (still is)
Mini Discs are way better than tapes or CDs (they still are)
Sony's MP3 Walkman was to kill the IPod, but they made you convert from MP3 to their own music format. (stupid)
The only success they have had with this type of move is their split with Nintendo to make the playstation. Aside from that, their track record shows they will lose this battle.
Funny, I thought it was Toshiba who was leading the HD-DVD format. Also, Warner has not dropped HD-DVD. Like most studios, they are now backing both formats. This now means that the winner of the HD format war will be the first group to get widespread hardware saturation into homes and win shelf space on retailer shelves. Those two go hand in hand with each other. At this time, that's most likely going to be Blu-Ray. With the PS3 launch somewhere on the horizon, and the ensuring massive sales that have been a art of the PS1 and PS2, it is only a matter of time before Blu-Ray delivers a knockout blow to HD-DVD.
But that doesn't mean HD-DVD couldn't stage a serious coup by getting standalone HD-DVD hardware players out the door, but the price of the PS3 will be easier to swallow than shelling out $400-500 for a first generation standalone HD-DVD player for consumers used to spending less than $100 for a DVD player and serious money on a gaming console. The XBOX 360 launching before an HD-DVD drive is available is certainly not helping the HD-DVD format.
Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Honestly, the battle between HD-DVD and Blu-ray is only really important to a small segment of the potential market; a valueble segment being that these people are willing to pay $10,000 for a TV or Surround sound system and $1000 for a 'DVD player', but still a small segment. The reality is that the average consumer may just say "meh, DVD is good enough".
I know that this may sound shocking to the average slashdotter, but remember that DVD wasn't the first format that attempted to replace VHS. People often forget the expense of switching media formats; considering the majority of people don't own HDTVs, and the majority of new TVs are not HDTVs (75% of new TV purchases are not HDTV compliant) it means that (in order to see the difference in quality) a person has to replace their TV with an expensive TV (probably $2000), replace their player ($500) and replace their movie library (probably $250). The final barrier for people is that Blockbuster will not start offering any format (in any reasonable numbers) until a large portion of their userbase has players, without being able to rent movies in a format why would you buy a player?
And to a lesser extent, memory sticks.
The 360 does not ship with HD-DVD, and therefore will be providing no mass for HD-DVD whatsoever.
Now you can see whay HD-DVD is really screwed. While the 360 fragments its own market on launch with the HD models, the PS3 comes out next year and you isntanted have millions of Blu-Ray players in the US. At that same point in time Microsoft releases the upgraded 360 with HD-DVD also, and pisses off all the early adoptors that are the ones who would have used HD-DVD anyway but now do not want to buy another 360 just six months later.
I kind of think though Microsoft will be forced by market pressures to go with Blu-Ray for the 360 though.
I thought it kind of interesting that your analysis did not quite make it to pointing out the PS2 had a DVD drive, which was kind of in the same train of thought - some people justifies the purchase of a PS2 because it could also play DVD's. It was my only DVD player for quite some time.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This will hurt MS. Unlike Sony who has design engineers, patents, and manufacturing facilities and experience, Microsoft has none of these. They're known mostly in hardware for the MSMouse and the XBox.
Sony can make their own new format (e.g. UMD) including the drives, media, and pressing plants. Microsoft can't. If HD-DVD was to only appear in the XBox with a run of a few ten's of millions over the next 7 years the price would be so high that XBox would really become non-competative.
The only reason Microsoft wants HD-DVD for the XBox is because they clearly need an HD drive of some sort, and HD-DVD is the only game in town that isn't Sony.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
My own theory on the studos initial format split is that they were on both sides to force compromise in features between teh two formats. Kind of funny how the lines were drawn exactly in half, eh?
Since they can see that has palainly failed, so now studios are going to back they one they think will actually win. It's pretty obvious where momentum is heading now.
They may have been finally drawn to Blu-Ray over HD-DVD for technical reasons, but I think it might be they feel more comfortable siding with a fellow studio (Sony) rather than a hardware maker with goals dissimilar to media companies (in other words Toshiba may have had a bit more customer friendliness in mind for the format, but sadly only just a bit).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The great thing about standards is, there are so many of them!
My #1 feature request, for either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD: No non-skippable support. I want to be able to go straight to the menu/movie, enough with the non-skippable ads, logos, FBI warnings, etc.
Well, the HD-DVD camp was going to call theirs "Hoo-Ray", but somehow it just didn't sound as good. The new Chinese standard will, I believe, be called "Hu-Ray" but that's not confirmed.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
To many of us, it was obvious for a while now that Blu-Ray was going to win. At first, HD-DVD was the superior format due to its support of MPEG-4, while Blu-Ray only did MPEG-2. Then Blu-Ray caught up and adopted all the codecs HD-DVD was supporting, making the only difference between them storage capacity. Blu-Ray's is much larger, so it was clear since then that Blu-Ray would win out. That's not even getting into the fact that the Playstation 3 will be using Blu-Ray discs.
Even Apple is backing Blu-Ray and is a member of the board.
"Sufferin' succotash."
MS is not the leader of the HD-DVD camp, they recently made a non-commital statement that they will favor HD-DVD down the road. For now, the next xbox will use plain old DVDs
It is grossly premature to declare either format a winner since neither is ready for market.
The only thing remotely true is that for now, most content producers prefer blue ray. But that's because blue ray is packed with invasive DRM, it's worse than DivX, and no matter what the content makers want, there's a good chance the format will be rejected in the market because of it.
> I sometimes wonder if part (and only a small part to be sure) of the Game Cube's lackluster sales was the fact that is played "games only", removing the "but we can play CDs/DVDs on it" excuse. However, that is much less of an issue every day as DVD players are nearly available as toy surprises in cereal boxes.
:)
Even though dvd players are getting quite cheap now, having multiple boxes connected to the tv, each taking up its own set of A/V inputs, can be quite a hassle at times. As such, being able to combine two of those boxes (dvd player + game console) into one can be quite an advantage in some cases imho. IF I were to buy a console (I only play PC games, esp. bcoz I like RPGs, strategy games where keyboard is a must) then 'getting a dvd capability as well' would definitely be a plus point.
I wonder if the comparatively lower piracy for GameCube (iirc the supposed reason for the non-standard disks?) was better for Nintendo than the sales they would've lost due to the different disk formats. For e.g., I might buy a used XBox when they drop further in price, mainly to use xbmc. Can't do that w/ GC, thus one less potential customer who's not even interested in their clearance stocks
Okay. Can you name a porn group supporting it?
For some reason, it's an incredibly popular meme here that the porn industry drives everything (probably from the myth that Betamax died because porn supported VHS...instead of the much simpler fact that Betamax had a limited 1-hour running time that is shorter than your average movie, and that VHS allowed consumers to record for 8 hours with decreased picture quality). But as in the linked articles, you can see that the entertainment media groups referred to are the big, mainstream groups like Warner.
Here, your post has been modded as Insightful instead of Funny, even though there's really nothing backing your statement as an insightful post. I thought it was obvious you were just making a joke.
"Sufferin' succotash."
Actually, everything I have read indicates that the industry is still pretty much split. Apparently, larger studios are leaning towards Blu-Ray because of larger disc capacity, and smaller studios are leaning towards HD-DVD due to it's lower cost. Those were the reports from this years Adult Entertainment Expo anyway. (uh, not that I follow porn industry news, my friend told me that... I mean, I just read the articles... I mean... nevermind...)
Slackware
Every once in a while, a spelling error comes along that makes me chuckle.
:)
This time, it's an error that actually corrects the original mispelling of a word.
Kool.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Have you ever been on a commercial fishing boat? Do you know how long you are out there? You need something to do. (I know it was a joke, and this is meant to be too, but after typing it I realized that there is some truth there).
Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
blue ray is a cooler name? that's like choosing a car based on color!
Heck, do you think "Magic Gate" is a good name too?
So the one time cost to produce these is going to be higher? And I should care because?
Unless you own stock in a company that has to invest in new equipment for this, this is a non argument for consumers. And yes, I doubt that at the end the price for consumers is going to be that much different between Blue-Ray and HD-DVD movies.
Yes, as a consumer what I care about is higher capacity, and Blu-Ray has it and it will scale better than HD-DVD. If we're going to go through the pain of moving from the DVD format, the only logical thing is to chose the format that has the most capacity at a reasonable or comparable price.
If you don't care about storage capacity why should we bother to move on from DVD in the first place?
- sigs are for wimps.
You know... I'd be willing to make a wager that one of the main reasons Blue-Ray is getting it's support, is because it's got a cool name.
HD-DVD doesn't sound like anything new. Personally, every time i hear the term, I get an image of a matte black player with shiny gold accents (think early 90's CD players).
Everyone knows that if it's got a blue light on it, then it goes faster anyway!
To support Blu-ray, Microsoft's player would have to use Java to render the Blu-ray disks user interface - interactive menus etc (current DVDs use pre-rendered MPEG menu elements with very simple control interfaces). Does Microsoft want to depend on a Java Virtual Machine for anything? Like hell they do.
i res-a-jvm-microsoft-dont-do-jvms/)
HP's current "appeal" to the Blu-Ray Assoc also includes a request for Blu-Ray to support iHD, the XML based menuing definition language used by HD-DVD. The Blu-Ray Assoc (including HP!) did a side-by-side eval of iHD vs BDJ (Blue Ray Java) and they heavily favoured the BDJ solution. If iHD was adapted as an alternative (or replacement for BDJ) MS wouldn't have to use/license Java. Then they might consider supporting Blue-Ray (even though it would still hurt like hell). HP are doing Microsoft's bidding on this one, no doubt.
I imagine Sun have been on the blower to Sony & company on more than one occasion since HPs 'appeal' yesterday.
(blogged about this earlier -
http://www.xlml.com/aehso/2005/10/21/blu-ray-requ
Or maybe because Blu-Ray has been out for over a year, and PS3 is going to have Blu-Ray drives right from the start. And Blu-Ray's capacity is bigger than HD-DVD's.
This is my favorite feature of blue-ray. The fact that so many people call it blue-ray. Why? Cause that drives anal-retentive geeks nuts because it gives them an opportunity to correct someone else which feeds their need to try and feel superior due to the fact that they actually feel inferior. Mwa-ha-ha!!!!
Not true. The XBox 1 supports 720P and 1080i output, however, few games make use of it. The XBox360 will supposedly have HD video clips on it's hard drive. Microsoft has already said that they believe most people in the future will get HD video via high speed internet rather than via media. If you said that the PS3 will be the first console to support next gen HD media discs, then you'd be correct.
UMD will be another format that will die and it from sony
That would be interesting as well.
All these pronouncements about "who has won" a technology battle get rather stupid and tedious.
It might just be that NIETHER Blu-Ray or HD-DVD survive. Perhaps a third standard comes in and wipes the floor up with them.
The main thing Blu-Ray has going for it, besides the Sony backing, is the fact that it will come in ahead of HD-DVD. Bickering between studios and the committee of technology partners on HD-DVD is what is dragging it down and quickly making it irrelevant. M$ only backed it because it stands against Sony - otherwise, it doesn't make sense for them to support a standard that can't get its act together in time to actually compete.
What I'd really like to know, however, is what Forrester Research had to say about the "winner" of the DVD-R and DVD+R battle. As that battle has dragged on into a droning background buzz, the fact that they would make a pronouncement of any kind would be very telling.
I agree wholeheartedly. I also want to save my preferences on the player.
"For this DVD, skip straight to chapter 1 and start playing" (for kids movies, for example).
Disney makes all these DVDs with skippable advertising in the intros, but you can't rewind or otherwise go back in them. "Hey, come here, check out this ad" results in ejecting the disc and putting it back in to see the ad again.
Why would you ever put a "pause, skip but don't rewind" tag on advertising?
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
I love the "What impact might this have on Microsoft's decision to use HD-DVD on the Xbox 360?"
Uh, I dunno, maybe less people will have the hardware able to burn pirated disc images?
I'm just glad they can't agree on one format. By the time either one gets to market, Average Bob will be so confused he ignore both, and rightfully ask himself, 'Do I need to go out and buy my films a 3rd time??'.
I know playing most games with a remote would probably suck.
However, if you could use java and a Blu-Ray burner to make your own Blu-Ray player/PS3 compatible games, that would seriously rock!
If this works, I could easily see Blu-Ray player manufacturers making gamepad style remotes or maybe even gamepad ports for their players for playing java games on them.
This could open up a whole new market for the small developer.
DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
It's really annoying to see posters rallying behind blu-ray and Sony just because they're not Microsoft. The reason blu-ray is getting accepted by Warner and others in the industry is b/c of super-strict DRM. Meanwhile, Microsoft and Intel are more "on your side" with HD-DVD with a relaxed DRM that allows backup copies to home computers and portable media devices. Note they aren't acuting purely in your interest, they see greater profits from it, a company exists to make money. However, they are trying to give consumers what they want. This is the way business is supposed to work, let's bring both formats to market and let consumers decide. Sony et al are trying to ram blu-ray down consumers throats yelling "this is the way it's gonna be and you're gonna like it!". On the technical side, the HD-DVD guys are a couple years ahead of blu-ray in terms of storage capacity. The only reason blu-ray has a chance is because of the DRM. Arrrgggghhh....
Intel transfer the difficult from Hadware to software, for get more power, programmer need more technology. -- chinaitn
Does NetCraft confirm this?
We should insist that Slashdot articles have more correct splleing.
I tend to agree. Sorry, but this war is still too hot to declare a clear winner, and don't forget we have yet to see either technology. My mind will be made up once they've both been available for a while. Sorry, but I don't trust someone else to tell me who wins, especially before either format is available.
Blu-Ray the Flavour of The Moment
Does it taste like burning?
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" states that it is possible to know the outcome of a war before any fighting starts. To even have to resort to fighting at all is to have lost.
DVD only works as a 480p video format (that is, standard definition). Those nice shiny HDTV's we're all going to buy (or have already bought)? Our DVD's will look like complete shite on them (yes, even the anamorphic DVD's won't look that great if you compare it to a true 720p/1080i signal, or heaven forbid, some future 1080p signal).
So, yeah, it's broke, it needs to be fixed.
All I know about Bush is I had a good job when Clinton was president.
Warner has switched from backing HD-DVD to Blu-Ray
Though I understand why the submitter said this---because the article is unclear on this point---but Warner has only agreed to "nonexclusive" support for Blu-ray, meaning it could theoretically produce films in both formats, though it will initially produce movies for Blue-Ray. Not as ringing an endorsement as Walt Disney and Fox, both of whom have exclusive support agreements with the Blue-Ray tech consortium.
I know it's splitting hairs, but in this case, those are important hairs to split.
-Tom
how do you mod someone redundant when they are the first to post the comment?
You've got this completely backwards.
The XBox 360 will not be shipping with a Next Gen drive for sometime (if ever).
The XBox 360 acts as a Media Center Extender, it can stream content from your PC to the TV it's connected to, NOT the other way around. A Media Center Extender cannot send data (movies) back to the Media Center PC.
Microsoft wants you to be able to copy your HD Movies to your Media Center PC, and then play them on your TV through your XBox 360, which is streaming it from your Media Center PC.
It's rated +5,Funny but I think it's more insightful than anything.
It's common knowledge when writing grant proposals (particularly for grant projects that are going to DoD) that a clever acronym is a HUGE step toward acceptance.
HD-DVD now needs to find a cute icon to overcome its pedestrian abbreviation ("Tux"?) to regain parity in the base appeal market.
-Styopa
You won't be laughing when the world goes to BluRay, and you can't backup your discs anymore...
Unlike BluRay, HD-DVD is specifically designed to allow hard-drive backups and media center playback. For once, the fair-use advocates should actually be supporting Micro$oft's side...
1. Microsoft isn't leading HD-DVD
2. Microsoft isn't including HD-DVD on Xbox 360
3. Warner did NOT switch sides. They're hedging their bets by supporting both formats.Even the original Reuters story is missleading
If HD DVD wins, PS3 users are screwed.
If Blue-ray wins, i'm only out the drive upgrade, not the entire console.
The true fact is i'll be enjoying the XBox 360 on my HDTV playing 720p and 1080i games 6-7 months before the PS3 is even released. Watching TV on my console is the LAST thing I want to do right now. I already have a tuned DVD system.
Just HOW many people are going to have HD the days these systems come out? TV's are selling like hotcakes, but the market is what, only 5%???
Most parents aren't going to hook a gaming system up to the main tv and if they do they probably will have dedicated blue ray/hd dvd systems anyway.
I'll be Happy playing my games while those who wait will loose out.
I'm working on an open source toolkit for BD-J, assuming Microsoft doesn't win this war. Please let me know, all who'd be interested.
Thanks to HP's recent move, Java is currently in danger of being removed from the Blu-ray equation. That would be BAD news for studios, developers AND consumers.
See:
Blue4j.orgWhen Warner switches sides, which is what this sounds like, or even supports dual compatibility, that means it is feeling a need to support Blue-Ray for some odd reason.
When even Dell who has notoriously bowed to pressure (and incentives) from the all powerful Intel/MS conglomerate chooses Blue-Ray and is standing firm in direct opposition to MS and Intel both... something about Blue-Ray must be pretty good.
I am not intending to start a discussion regarding the merits of one console over another here, so I will only mention that the x360 will NOT have HD-DVD out of the box, it will be an add-on later... maybe. That means the HD-DVD camp will miss out on some valuable install base numbers, whereas PS3 will have Blue-Ray out of the box due to the fact that an install base within the gamer demographic will allow for early adopters and casual users both to get used to the idea of Blue-Ray which will gave a push (however small or large you might choose to believe) to Blue-Ray.
While HD-DVD is trumpeting their "first" release as being before Blue-Ray, it will be in the spring (granted, with $500 + price tags)... interestingly PS3 with Blue-Ray (and an unknown but no doubt expensive price tag as well) will also launch in the Spring, even if it only ships in Japan (unknown at this time). Thus the first-to market advantage is effectively answered, if not negated.
Membership & Support:
When you go to their "members" pages, you will find, in general more, larger, powerful companies (outside of MS) on the side of Blue-Ray. Let me give you an example:
Retail Computer Market:
Blue-Ray has Apple, Dell, HP, and Sun Microsystems
HD-DVD has... Acer?
(this is noted with the caveat that Windows will be loaded on the majority of systems, but that does not preclude the PC companies themselves loading Blue-Ray drives and drivers before shipping)
Movie Companies:
Blue-Ray has Twentieth Century Fox, Walt Disney Pictures, Sony/Tristar/Colimbia, Warner Home Video
HD-DVD has Universal Pictures
Here is the HD_DVD Association Member Page:
www.hddvdprg.com/about/member.html
Compare their list with the Blue-Ray Assc. Member List here:
www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13469/Index.html
Blue Ray has stronger support across the board from stronger "better" companies.
In all the above points and especially the member lists lead me to believe that the Blue-Ray will win.
What do we call ATRAC then?
Live forever, or die trying.
Gosh, I love hearing the HD DVD PR being re-spewed everytime this gets discussed. Let's do some math:
Let's say that it costs $1,000,000 USD more to get production going for Blu-ray Disc as opposed to HD DVD. Now, let's say this production line is going to be pressing, oh, say, at least 100,000,000 (that's one hundred million) discs during it's lifetime. That makes the cost increase that gets passed on to consumers a big fat whopping $0.01. Yeah, you read that right. A fucking PENNY. That's what the HD DVD crowd would have you believe is such a big deal. Oh, now you say it costs $5,000,000 USD more to get Blu-ray production going? Good then. Now it's a NICKEL.
You just learned the economic concept called "economies of scale".
The whole "it costs more, wahhh!" argument is a total non-starter for anyone with even an iota of intelligence.
Hi, I'm a consumer, and I'd notice the difference in quality of the content between a 50 GB Blu-ray Disc and a 30 GB HD DVD. See, while digital video compression has come a long ways since MPEG2, there's still this matter of it being lossy. While you might not notice video artifacting, I usually do, and it really annoys me. I'll happily adopt Sony's format if it'll give me less video artifacting and higher quality audio. Thanks.
Oh, and then there's the matter of which media I'd like to have on my PC. See, I have a HUGE porn collection, and it takes multiple DVD-5's to store it all. With Blu-ray Disc I can store all that porn on fewer discs (which will also have better error detection/correction tech and a harder coating to resist damage: most not lose my porn!).
All I know about Bush is I had a good job when Clinton was president.
But is the idea here that you will need a new player for either one?
This will make the DVD's obsolete essentially or what? Or either of these will play on a current standard DVD player?
Also, dual-layer HD DVD is pretty much ready to go, while dual-layer Blu-ray is much further behind. So, at least at launch, HD DVD would have 30 GB and Blu-ray 25 GB.
My video compression blog
haha sorry, i think the joke was about the word "Pr0n." When pronounced, it sounds like "prawn," a small shrimp-like crustacean.
You've got a strange view of economics. A company won't switch their production line if there is a huge one-time cost unless they're confident of fully recouping those costs. If HD DVD is cheaper to retool for, then a lot more companies will do the switch early on, driving down HD DVD costs faster than Blu-ray. Hence making HD DVD cheaper to buy in bulk. Even if the incremental cost is similar.
Also, for the PS3 market in particular, I think Sony does PS2 replication internally, and presumably will for PS3 as well. So that's not much of an incentive for 3rd parties.
My video compression blog
Ah, but what if HD DVD players and media come on the market a lot sooner, and are a lot cheaper.
The Chinese CE companies are already working on making HD DVD players. Making the discs is much cheaper.
And the launch should be much sooner - probably a 6-12 month lead for worldwide release of players and titles. And it isn't clearer that the PS3 will be able to play Blu-ray movies out of the box either - there have been rumors of a firmware upgrade later on. Bear in mind the spec isn't finished yet.
My video compression blog
I like "HDDVD-FizzleDizzle" myself ;)
Life is not for the lazy.
RIAA+MPAA member vs the great satan of the software world.
hmmm. which one is the lesser evil?
punch the lucifer and win 10,000 dollars!
Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
Folks,
m g.torrent?1C6B407CD6671B2BB03F55C49D67CEB584A74D90
I've posted this at Slashdot before, but it seems germane.
I made a HD-DVD format disc with Apple's DVD Studio Pro 4 a few months ago. It's a complaint disc, and should work fine in any HD DVD hardware player when those are released. It plays today in Apple's DVD Player 4.6 on a G5. I've heard folks have been able to get media to play back in Windows and Linux with other software, but not with menus.
Here's a Torrent for it. It's an Apple format DMG file, but there are mounters for it that'll work on other OSs.
http://216.99.212.233:6969/torrents/HD_DVD_TEST.d
Again, I did this MONTHS ago. And I can't do this even today with Blu-ray. Format isn't far enough along, no tools (there are two for HD DVD already), etcetera.
My video compression blog
Well, first of all the XBOX 360 at launch is manufactured with a standard DVD drive. In truth, it makes no difference which format Microsoft ultimately choses, since they will have to manufacture new units using the new drive. Furthermore, the XBOX 360 does not have HDMI/DVI output, so it will be impossible to play high definition video to begin with (since the proposed HD disc formats all use HDCP). The impact will be minor, since the consumer will have to pay a premium for an HDMI/DVI compatible unit with the appropriate drive and who knows when that'll happen. People interested in the XBOX 360 for HD playback will just have to wait, while gamers will likely buy the launch unit and never buy a new unit just because it supports HD video playback.
It doesn't matter what media and hardware companies want because movie studious will ultimately decide which format will win. Sure media companies are on HD-DVD side with cheaper retooling costs but don't think for a second they'll pass on Blu-Ray reproduction if it prevails.
Blu-ray will be backward-compatible with red laser formats, e.g. DVD. There was a rumor that Sony's Playstation 3 would forego this backward-compatibility, but that is unlikely.
...that Sony's best selling product - the Walkman - was based on a tape format invented by Philips.
To be honest, I'm a bit fed up with companies posturing over formats. It happened with DVD+R/-R/-RAM, and memory card formats, and goodness knows what else. How do I deal with it at the moment? I have card readers and dual format DVD writers/players coming out of my ears (even one of those weird VHS-C adaptors). The net result is just frustration every once in a while when I discover that device x and media y won't work together.
It never happened with LP records or CDs - maybe these companies need to take a leaf out of the past and stop fragmenting their markets, but I guess it comes down to protecting the brand. Either way, I'm not likely to purchase a Sony laptop just because it uses the same cards as my phone or camera...
So yes to new hardware...no to obsoletion of old formats....? eg - I can still play PS1 discs in my PS2
Yeah--warrior--maybe you are peeved at Sony for some reason and have witnessed one too many Microsoft bashings. We have all been burned in the past by both companies. But your post is way off.
Blu-ray makes more sense for a lot of reasons--(not simply higher capacity despite what you said) and it has nothing to do with Microsoft bashing.
I suppose, in your book, the most "consumer-friendly" scenario would be the one where you could steal as much content [as easily] as possible.
CONSUMER-FRIENDLY = Windows not neededTruth is, it would be MOST CONSUMER FRIENDLY if we did not rely on a personal computer (Windows or otherwise) for what are--let's be honest--consumer electronics home theater features.
With each other. I don't believe they'll get as many 360 Live subscribers as they say they are, but their reliance on it gives them something to say about their work other than "It's just like the PS3, only not!"
But that is unrelated to HD-DVD at all, since no model of the 360 shipping soon, nor even any announced models, will contain an HD-DVD player. So, again I say - connectivity with what? There are no players Microsoft has a footprint in now or in the near future. There are not even any drives to buy for computers.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
wow! I wasn't aware that you had a hard drive that could store 29 40GB movies. cuz digital download will suck untill we have 100MBps phat pipes to the distribution centers and 3TB hds. who wants to only be able to buy 9 movies before they have to delete one and re-download it later? ms is an idiot for thinking digital download is the next movie thing
If Blue-ray wins, i'm only out the drive upgrade, not the entire console.
Do you honestly believe Microsoft is going to offer a drive upgrade in a piece of consumer electronics?
When Apple releases new iPods with larger drives, do they offer drive-only upgrades?
You, possibly, be able to HACK a new drive in. Voiding your warrantly of course, and possibly causing the Live sniffers to kicj you out when your serial number does not match a box with an HD-DVD player.
The number of early adopters willing to do that are a small percentage. There are going to be many, many people who bought in that would be annoying if an HD-DVD player comes out later - or at least they simply wont buy it as the current console is too new. It's taking an already small market and subdividing it further.
As for number of people with HD systems to play them, there have been more HD ready sets sold than there will be consoles for a while. But that doesn't even matter since people will buy the new media even to play back on normal TV's, since there will be more extras and thiungs that can be fit in additional to the enhanced quality of the content.
I'm not saying not to buy a 360, I'm saying HD-DVD is screwed and Microsoft is not helping.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So you're a plant owner. You have two one-time costs, one 10x the other. But the 10x cost will let you sell media for 3 million PS3 consoles later, and some player in Japan right now. Switching to the cheaper one means selling media for an unknown players at an unknown point in the future.
People in other plants have switched already and are watching an increasing stream of recurring Blu-Ray revenue come in already. So are you really going to switch to the cheaper option with NO promise for return in the future? Are you still going to do so when a bulk of the media companies seem to be going to Blu-Ray?
You need to think of the whole picture, not just a SINGLE and minimal sunk cost.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Let's say you and your 2.5 kids wanted to watch Charlie and The Chocolate Factory.
Assuming you missed its theatrical release, you just saved your family approximately $30 at the cineplex!
What do you do with that $30?
Just curious.
There is truth in your wit. Technology always hits home with me when I overhear someone talking about it outside of work. The other day I heard a couple of people talking about DVD's, and one said "well you know they are starting to put out the new form of DVDs now, but there are a couple different kinds. One is called Blue Ray... I can't remember the name of the other." Mindshare is a powerful thing!
You get enough people saying it, it becomes the standard regardless of the technical details (see vhs/betamax etc).
1) Your analysis is based on bad assumptions so your result is way off. 2) You're a sick bastard for fucking a horse.
I think you've got it.
Sorry, I was too casual in my earlier post. My kid was tugging at my shirt.
Obviously, you shouldn't expect an old DVD player to be able to deliver high def Blu-ray or HD DVD content--though some DO expect us to burn standard def onto our next-gen discs in order to make new discs backward compatible with old players. But that is certainly not guaranteed.
That is, BD *players* are backward compatible with older *discs*.
The Blu-ray *player* will support older-format discs, including current DVDs and CDs.
*New discs* will usually NOT be supported by older players.
Your PS1 to PS2 comparison was a good one, but some are calling for what would amount to the PS2 discs being also usable on a PS1, which is very well-meaning, but I don't think it is reasonable to expect. Sort of like a web site trying to support early versions of Internet Explorer. You could do it, but at what cost?
Ah, but what if HD DVD players and media come on the market a lot sooner, and are a lot cheaper.
The Chinese CE companies are already working on making HD DVD players. Making the discs is much cheaper.
Except that right now you can already buy Blu-Ray players in Japan. You can't buy HD-DVD players yet, and Toshiba says not before Christmas.
Don't you think there are also going to be cheap Chinese blu-ray players as well?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
All of the Blu-Ray menus are written using Java - not sure what flavore (J2ME or J2SE). So you need a VM for discs to have the menus work (which as you can imagine is rather important!).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The trouble you have is that woul;d be going backwards; The existing DVD spec uses a primitive language to define meus today. Isn't it better that at least they are using a standardized language instead of a proprietary one? For instance I could write my own interetsing menus for Blu-Ray discs with my own contents.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Blu-ray lost my vote when they decided to build in functionality to allow the movie industry to actually physically disable your player if they chose.
They both support key revocation. Back to square one.
Really both are equal DRM wise. But it's stupid to ignore the format because of that; as long as you can burn your own content use the one that is more technically appealing and simply ignore DRM media. If you feel strongly enough about it download DIVX from torrents and transcode them to next-gen media.
I still support blu-ray almost entirely because of the larger supported storage sizes; I plan to use it as secondary offsite backup.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That's how they get shrimp in the 'net
I see 57005 people
I don't know, with movies I consider myself pretty average and I will go to (or buy) about 1 movie every month or two, rent 4-10 (~1-2 a week) movies a month, and watch a movie on TV on occasion; about 1/4 the movies I rent are not new releases and are just now really becoming available on DVD, and of those I buy about half are used. In other words, the vast majority of the movies I buy or rent are based on a well established, mass market format (something that neither HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will be for at least 5 years).
Certainly, I may buy a newer format before it becomes the leader (I bought a DVD player when Blockbuster started to cary Every new movie in both VHS and DVD) or I may end up incidentally buying one (a PS3) but I will not be choosing to buy one early in its life because I will gain no real benefit from it; I think that there are more people like me than there are HDTV owning audiophiles or videophiles.
The way I see it, a LOT of people are going to se an HD-DVD disc in the store and say "I have a DVD player and an HDTV. Guess I'm good to go!!".
A different name is a good thing in this case as it avoids unpleasant product confusion.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Microsoft want's people to use their X-Boxes as more than just gaming rigs to increase sales. "Buy an X-Box 360 and watch High Def Movies!"
Which would be a lie if they said so, since the XBOX 360 does not ship with an HD-DVD drive!!! So they have NOTHING to push with advertising since they have NO players in the market.
I can't believe how many people are confused on this very simple point when it has been stated again and again the 360 comes with. In fact I think this misuderstanding is a herald for exactly how confused the general public is going to be between standrad DVD's and HD-DVD, Blu-Ray has an advanatge because the name is different!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
DVD isn't a success because of the PS/2 but because of manufactures discounting the hell out of the players, picture quality is good and the affordability of rental or movie purchases. VHS used to cost 80-100 bucks a movie, DVD's are what 15.99?
That only came later though, the PS2 came out when players were still rather expensive and you could essentially get a game system and DVD player for just $100 more than a DVD player alone. The XBox also helped in this regard, to a lesser extent.
And so it will be with the PS3 where Blu-Ray players will be kind of expensive when it comes out - I don't think there would be a clear winner of the next gen HD disc format if one console or the other were not supporting a particular format.
Why do you say Blu-ray needs different packaging and handling? Still laboring under the misaprehension they'll need caddies? Sorry but you need to keep up with the format. It's on a disc just like DVD, how is the full chain of delivery really that much different.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Storage capacity
This is a definite plus for Blu-ray. The single and dual layer discs will offer much more capacity than HD-DVDs. Some developments regarding multi-layer BD discs show us that a Blu-ray disc can hold 8 layers. This offers a potential to store up to 200 GB of data, considerably greater than the theoretical 60GB of a possible double-sided, dual layer, HD-DVD. Of course, who knows if the end user will see such medias in the near future, but we know that it is technically possible.
excerpt from:http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/4
With technology I've found it's often useful not be so short-sighted, thinking only of today. Hope this helps someone!
I don't think HP has a lot of stock with anyone right now.
I'd be very interested in just such a framework...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
SO lets say Chinese players come out at $200, with very limited media... then the PS3 comes out. Millions of PS3's will be sold, so even though technically the "player" is more expensive there will be an order of magnitude more players - and thus buyers of content. So even if standalone players are very expensive, Blu-Ray still has a huge advantage in marketshare right off the bat just by being incorperated into the PS3.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Since XBOX games currently use a large amount of the capacity of the standard DVD for standaard resolution games,
I cant but feel XBOX 360 with with DVD will be a resurrection of Nintendo 64
Extremely visually amazing yet 160MB was pathetic storage for the resolution of
games.
PS1 had inferior graphics but had 650MB to satisfy full potential graphics yet
still make a big game (levels, characters, movies).
Why not come up with something like "H-Fizzle to DV-doubleDizzle".
That'll make it waaaaaaaaay cooler!
Borrowing from 90's rap:
H-to-the-D-to-the-DVD.
You down with HD-DVD?
Maybe, but maybe not. The Xbox 360 was built with procedural texture rendering in mind. This means that a lot of textures (especially environmental ones) are rendered on the fly via an algorithm versus being stored as bitmaps. The biggest use of space in game installs is do to graphics (textures) and pre-rendered movies.
If you look at current PC games which offer much higher resolution than the current consoles, you will see that full game installs are usually less than 4GB.
Now storing tons of pre-rendered HD quality video will suck up a DVD space quickly, so you probably won't see as much of that. I myself usually prefer game engine cutscenes - and the graphics in the latest systems are good enough to do this quite effectively. The Quake 4 introduction was very effectively done using the game engine.
Sometimes my arms bend back.
This is what happened after the 2000 Presidential Election in the US. One party declared they won and started acting like they did.
That was the most relevant comment I've seen here all day, by adam31. The relevance of Personal Computers is at stake.
I would add: It's the CONTENT, stupid NOT the operating system. NOR the personal computer.
Please people, stop whining about DRM... Even Gates is complaining about it. Why not rally around PEOPLE (including copyright holding artists) instead of vendors?
As a Java developer, I'm more scared of Microsoft's monopolistic, platform-dependent, self-serving vision for the future than Microsoft is afraid of Java.
Developers! You know the PS3 is going to make a brilliant debut for Blu-ray. Do you want to develop content and services for High Def using a wonderful, object-oriented tool like Java, or some Microsoft XML-laden [who-knows-what] kind of language?
WHAT is iHD?
Can anyone find definitive info on iHD online? I'm interested in learning more about this iHD spec. URLs please.
100 percent behind Blu-ray for all the right reasons!
----http://bluerayman.com/
BlueRayMan
You should read what I wrote, or any news stories about Blu-Ray for the past year. Blu-Ray is not a cartridge media. They came up with a coating to prevent scratches eliminating that aspect. Therefore Blu-Ray discs are actually SAFER for Netflix to send through the mail than DVD's are today.
Get caught up on current events before you declare the obvious winner, Balmer.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That's been done, remember the DVD port of "Dragon's Lair". It is a game playable on a run of the mill DVD player!
An interesting idea, but I really think people would be put off attaching an external drive to a consumer electronics item like a console. Also it would be limited to using the USB 2 ports, which I would think would be slow at getting things into the system (or a lot slower than the PS3 would be able to do using an internal drive).
I do think we'll see an XBox 360 at some juncture with a next-gen drive in it - can't decide if they will wisen up and add Blu-Ray, or try to go head-to-head and launch the 360-HD at the same time as the PS3 (seems more likley to me as well though it's the dumber option).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
If Sony fails and Blu-Ray has some crappy feature like Betamax vs VHS... the price... we're stuck with it! It's a cheap move, "put it in the Playstation if you want the idiots (consumers) to accept it" so when it's selling like hell and it sucks, it will migrate to PCs then it will be affecting all of gaming and then we will all die. You'll see. If Betamax had succedded, only moviegoers would've been affected... now look us gamers get to deal with this risk.
Yes, there are RW Blu-ray devices in Japan, but not many of them, and NONE OF THEM ARE MOVIE PLAYERS. They use the RW flavor of BR optical media, but that's it.
No mass-produced ROM titles.
No movie titles.
No players with movie playback capacity.
My video compression blog
"Much cheaper" is very much up in the air. The price difference between the discs has narrowed dramatically just within the past few months and the hardware costs shouldn't be that different at all (the two formats are very similar from a hardware perspective). The Blu-ray camp also has a lot more experience with actually producing the hardware, since they've been making and selling Blu-ray drives (based on non-finalized versions of the spec) since 2003, whereas the HD DVD camp has yet to produce anything. And frankly I doubt HD DVD will benefit much from a 6-12-month lead -- the vast, vast majority of HD early adopters will be videophiles, and that community has been firmly behind Blu-ray for quite some time now.